Breaking: House Passes Health Care Bill
Politics • Views: 3,559
Yes, the health care bill has passed the House. The Senate is the final hurdle.
984 comments
3 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:12:37pm |
Republican Cao from Louisiana voted for this
Hell.
| 4 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:12:38pm |
Breaking - budgets of small businesses across America.
| 6 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:13:46pm |
Hmmm, the senate is the final hurdle.
CALL, WRITE, email as a last resort!
What's that ancient Chinese curse?
"May you live in interesting times."
Yes, well, this is an interesting development...
| 7 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:14:13pm |
MichelleBachmanGlennBeckTeaParty!
/Wow, this is working out great
| 8 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:14:28pm |
Oh yay! And they already passed cap and trade, too! Why not cram throught card check and make it the shitty tri-fecta?
| 9 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:14:32pm |
| 10 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:14:40pm |
| 11 |
mcrognale Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:15:02pm |
Not sure what Cao was thinking. Must have been in the "History calls" mode of Olympia Snow. I was surprised that one of the blue dogs couldn't have the courage of his or her convictions. Wonder what the bribe was.
| 12 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:15:04pm |
If I really knew what were in it I could probably tell you whether I am for it or against it...
| 13 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:15:49pm |
re: #11 mcrognale
Not sure what Cao was thinking. Must have been in the "History calls" mode of Olympia Snow. I was surprised that one of the blue dogs couldn't have the courage of his or her convictions. Wonder what the bribe was.
His district voted for over 70% for Obama. He's only there because rep Jefferson was ridiculously corrupt.
| 14 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:15:55pm |
re: #9 solomonpanting
Not really. I'm the man, everyone else are tigers and rats.
| 15 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:16:08pm |
Those tea parties and chants of "death panels" were just so effective in stopping this...
//
| 16 |
hc4bo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:16:09pm |
Sounds like New Years Eve on cspan ...
Did I miss Christmas already ?>???
| 17 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:16:29pm |
re: #12 Thanos
Umm...doesn't the fact that they're voting on it in the middle of the night on the weekend kind of reek of desperation and urgency in and of itself?
| 18 |
Athens Runaway Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:16:33pm |
re: #11 mcrognale
Not sure what Cao was thinking. Must have been in the "History calls" mode of Olympia Snow. I was surprised that one of the blue dogs couldn't have the courage of his or her convictions. Wonder what the bribe was.
Campaign donations. My Congresscreep got 63K from Pelosi to change his tune on Cap'n Trade.
| 19 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:16:35pm |
re: #12 Thanos
That should be enough for you to make the call, don't you think?
| 20 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:17:08pm |
| 21 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:17:33pm |
re: #1 Killgore Trout
I will no go have a strawberry milkshake.
I will pay for the milkshake.
Some minuscule amount of fat from that strawberry milkshake will come to be deposited on the lining of my arteries. At some point in the future I will suffer a cardiac event requiring hospitalization and extensive treatment.
It appears from tonight's vote that someone else will pay for my medical care. Probably my yet born grandchildren through their taxes paying down the debts we accumulate today.
But I will drink that strawberry milkshake today.
| 22 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:17:38pm |
What is it that prevents this kind of vote from not happening within a few seconds?
Who were the last hangers-on who couldn't make their minds up until they saw where the flock was going, or decide to go the other way?
| 23 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:18:13pm |
Hooray for people being forced to support others!
| 24 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:18:28pm |
re: #11 mcrognale
Not sure what Cao was thinking. Must have been in the "History calls" mode of Olympia Snow. I was surprised that one of the blue dogs couldn't have the courage of his or her convictions. Wonder what the bribe was.
When I read about Cao before he was elected, on his webpage where he talked about what his positions were, there were some things that had me scratching my head.
I guess I was right to be scratching my head.
| 25 |
kellygrrrl Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:18:36pm |
nancy certainly has earned her Dog Herder license today
| 26 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:18:47pm |
re: #17 Fenway_Nation
Umm...doesn't the fact that they're voting on it in the middle of the night on the weekend kind of reek of desperation and urgency in and of itself?
Nope. It tells me that they want to get it passed, and now have the votes they needed due to the victory conservatives handed them on a platter in NY 23. With that and another seat fill, they actually gained two votes for it.
| 27 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:19:00pm |
Well I guess I can cancel my policy now. I mean why pay now when I can sign up when I need it?
| 29 |
kellygrrrl Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:19:24pm |
Shocker about Cao -- never heard of the guy. I'm guessing he'll be square in the wingnuts crosshairs tomorrow
| 30 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:19:32pm |
re: #21 karmic_inquisitor
I never hear strawberry milkshakes used as a philosophical analogy before.
| 31 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:19:36pm |
I have very mixed feelings on this. It's kind of a lose-lose situation where doing nothing hurts and doing something hurts.
Mostly I'm worried about the eugenics glenn beck said was and wasn't coming. ///
| 32 |
Captain Amercia Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:19:43pm |
Thank you, House, for ruining my children's future lives.
| 33 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:19:43pm |
Yes, the health care bill has passed the House. The Senate is the final hurdle.
Biii111iii111iii111iii111iiig M f'n hurdle.
| 34 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:19:50pm |
re: #29 kellygrrrl
Shocker about Cao -- never heard of the guy. I'm guessing he'll be square in the wingnuts crosshairs tomorrow
From Louisiana - took William Jefferson's seat.
| 35 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:20:04pm |
I thank the "real conservatives" who :
1) stayed home when a sex scandal disgusted them in 2006 thereby handing Nancy Pelosi the speaker's gavel
2) stayed home because they could not bring themselves to vote for RINO John McCain.
How are those principled stances working out for you, assholes?
| 36 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:20:05pm |
re: #29 kellygrrrl
Shocker about Cao -- never heard of the guy. I'm guessing he'll be square in the wingnuts crosshairs tomorrow
You bet he will, even though he's representing his district and what he thinks they want.
| 37 |
The Mongoose Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:20:12pm |
$1.2 trillion and a few thousand broken small businesses is a small price to pay to ensure that trial lawyers remain free to sue doctors and their insurers into oblivion on a whim. Come on, dedicated physicians or parasitic lawyers...who would YOU side with? For the left, the choice is easy.
| 38 |
kellygrrrl Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:20:28pm |
wonder if Batshit Bachmann is ready to put her "blood brothers" plan into action -- what was that she said about cutting of wrists?
| 39 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:20:37pm |
re: #31 Sharmuta
I have very mixed feelings on this. It's kind of a lose-lose situation where doing nothing hurts and doing something hurts.
Mostly I'm worried about the eugenics glenn beck said was and wasn't coming. ///
the Camp will straighten it all out for you...be patient
| 40 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:21:13pm |
I read something the other day that said they are counting on fines for not getting health care to pay for a portion of the government heath care.
| 43 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:21:25pm |
re: #35 karmic_inquisitor
How about those of us who stayed home because of Palin?
/I'm concerned, yet hopeful (just in case you're wondering)
| 44 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:21:26pm |
Don't worry, Obama promised not to sign it if it even added 10 cents to the deficit.
/?
| 45 |
Mark Pennington Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:21:32pm |
re: #31 Sharmuta
I have very mixed feelings on this. It's kind of a lose-lose situation where doing nothing hurts and doing something hurts.
Mostly I'm worried about the eugenics glenn beck said was and wasn't coming. ///
LMFAO! *dies*
| 46 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:21:44pm |
re: #27 redshirt
Well I guess I can cancel my policy now. I mean why pay now when I can sign up when I need it?
You Red Shirts don't need health insurance. Your big injury always kills you but spares Capt. Kirk.
| 47 |
Captain Amercia Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:22:16pm |
re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Biii111iii111iii111iii111iiig M f'n hurdle.
It'll pass. It passed the House. Everyone is all in when it comes to screwing the "commoners."
| 49 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:22:29pm |
re: #46 Dark_Falcon
You Red Shirts don't need health insurance. Your big injury always kills you but spares Capt. Kirk.
Yeah, we have early retirement.
| 50 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:22:56pm |
To me, the scariest part is the pricing, that I have seen quoted.
I currently buy, as an individual, $300 a month health insurance.
That's $3600 a year.
It's basic, and catastrophic oriented.
IF, the numbers I have seen thrown around, are that this healthcare bill will cost $15,000 a year.
I am just afraid.
Very afraid.
| 51 |
lrsshadow Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:23:00pm |
Not what you would call a bi-partisan effort all republicans voted nay except for one and the vote only past by 5 votes.
Now things are really going to heat up when it gets to the senate.
| 52 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:23:09pm |
re: #38 kellygrrrl
wonder if Batshit Bachmann is ready to put her "blood brothers" plan into action -- what was that she said about cutting of wrists?
We're doin' fer America!
| 53 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:23:10pm |
re: #44 redshirt
Don't worry, Obama promised not to sign it if it even added 10 cents to the deficit.
But 11 cents and up? That's cool.
| 54 |
Ziggy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:23:17pm |
If the senate passes this, say good by to America,
| 55 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:23:17pm |
re: #44 redshirt
Don't worry, Obama promised not to sign it if it even added 10 cents to the deficit.
/?
This bill will cost a little bit more than a dime.
CBO: New House Health Bill Spending Estimate, $3 Trillion over 10 Years
| 56 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:23:35pm |
re: #23 cliffster
Hooray for people being forced to support others!
Those people have absolutely no way to provide for themselves. Obviously. Or they would have done it by now. They are completely without skills, and therefore are unemployable. They are utterly hopeless and know this and have no desire to move forward in their lives. They have absolutely no opportunities to advance in this life. This is why others, we, have to support them. Because of their inevitable, sad state.
| 57 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:23:40pm |
re: #42 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Cue Mandy.
She isn't here, but I'll say it:
I hope that everyone who refused to vote for John McCain because he wasn't conservative enough is fucking happy now!
| 58 |
rhythman Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:24:11pm |
America will never be the same. I am justifiably saddened.
| 59 |
arethusa Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:24:15pm |
re: #51 lrsshadow
Not what you would call a bi-partisan effort all republicans voted nay except for one and the vote only past by 5 votes.
Someone on ABC is already calling it bipartisan because of that one R. yea vote. Seems like the opposition was way more bipartisan than that.
| 60 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:24:20pm |
I just did my benefits renewal at work, 300 bucks more per year for slightly poorer plan. {more copay, etc.)
| 61 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:24:33pm |
re: #34 reine.de.tout
From Louisiana - took William Jefferson's seat.
You can take the politician out of Louisiana, but you can't take the Louisiana out of the politician.
| 62 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:24:53pm |
re: #23 cliffster
Hooray for people being forced to support others!
Uh- we already are forced to support others... Social Security, Medicare, etc.
| 64 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:24:59pm |
re: #55 NJDhockeyfan
OMG! RedState? They're really honest! We're fucked! IhateObamaSocialistFascism-dot-Com made a graph showing that we're all going to FEMA Camps! Iyeee!
| 66 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:25:13pm |
re: #50 Floral Giraffe
And if you don't pay you go to jail.
| 67 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:25:14pm |
re: #27 redshirt
Look at it this way. Those of us who pay for our own healthcare will probably get even better treatment as multitudes of providers will tell all of the freeloaders to go elsewhere as they will not participate in this bureaucratic monstrosity. The upcoming lawsuits should tie this thing up for years anyway. As always, the lawyers are the ones who really win here.
| 68 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:25:35pm |
It's going to be a fun week on the wingnut blogs.
| 69 |
J.S. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:25:39pm |
Does this mean that Karl Marx is back in vogue? commies, and all that? and just in time for the 20th anniversary of the Fall of the Berlin Wall? yah, OK, comrades!
| 70 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:25:40pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
OMG! RedState? They're really honest! We're fucked! IhateObamaSocialistFascism-dot-Com made a graph showing that we're all going to FEMA Camps! Iyeee!
I'm due at FEMA camp Delta 3 for punishment.
| 71 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:25:43pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
OMG! RedState? They're really honest! We're fucked! IhateObamaSocialistFascism-dot-Com made a graph showing that we're all going to FEMA Camps! Iyeee!
You need another
*whack*
| 72 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:26:01pm |
| 73 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:26:06pm |
re: #54 Ziggy
If the senate passes this, say good by to America,
Smart money says that the Senate will pass it, but tone it down to where it's not "medpocalypse now"
| 74 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:26:07pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
OMG! RedState? They're really honest! We're fucked! IhateObamaSocialistFascism-dot-Com made a graph showing that we're all going to FEMA Camps! Iyeee!
This coming from someone who regularly posts links to DKos & HuffPo.
| 75 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:26:09pm |
re: #65 cliffster
Well, you support them then. By choice.
I'd rather not.
(sarc tag intended on my previous post)
| 76 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:26:15pm |
re: #50 Floral Giraffe
To me, the scariest part is the pricing, that I have seen quoted.
I currently buy, as an individual, $300 a month health insurance.
That's $3600 a year.
It's basic, and catastrophic oriented.
IF, the numbers I have seen thrown around, are that this healthcare bill will cost $15,000 a year.I am just afraid.
Very afraid.
Do I get to add elective/cosmetic surgery for that price?
Maybe some on SanFranNans botox?
Liposuction?
Boobjob?
Sheesh!
The options for $12,000 a year could just go on & on & on!
| 78 |
McJenny50 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:26:29pm |
How long does it usually take for the roll call to be posted?
| 79 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:26:29pm |
re: #71 reine.de.tout
I'm pissing up a rope just in case Mandy gets here.
| 80 |
dugmartsch Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:26:47pm |
re: #50 Floral Giraffe
To me, the scariest part is the pricing, that I have seen quoted.
I currently buy, as an individual, $300 a month health insurance.
That's $3600 a year.
It's basic, and catastrophic oriented.
IF, the numbers I have seen thrown around, are that this healthcare bill will cost $15,000 a year.I am just afraid.
Very afraid.
I am too.
Afraid that the Republican party is in its death throes as evidenced by its complete inability to offer anything substantive during the process to reform health care in America.
| 81 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:26:47pm |
Honestly, I don't think this is gonna happen.
CAKE IN THE SKY DUDE THAT I AM? I just don't think this'll happen.
(*fingers in ears...mmmMMMmmmMMMmmmMMM*)
| 82 |
TheMatrix31 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:26:51pm |
| 85 |
seamonkey Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:27:29pm |
Is there room on the Escape Rocket? Oh shit, the GOVERNMENT owns that rocket!
| 86 |
lrsshadow Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:27:37pm |
39 times the amount of democrats voted nay as republicans who voted yah. wow.
| 87 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:27:40pm |
re: #23 cliffster
Hooray for people being forced to support others!
This vote aside, that is a pretty crass comment (your sarc understood) .
Either we, as a people, support each other or we don't. You sound like you support everyman for themselves, which amounts to tribalism of the kind we otherwise pretend to disdain, given that all you say is screw anyone that doesn't have your benefits.
| 88 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:27:44pm |
| 90 |
Athens Runaway Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:27:50pm |
re: #72 Decatur Deb
re: #58 rhythman
Put down the straight razors. If it's a screwup, we'll fix it. We always do.
The closest thing to eternal life on Earth is a government program. If passed, we're stuck with it.
People are stupid, they like their free stuff. And if anyone tries to take away the free stuff, they get angry.
| 91 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:27:58pm |
re: #68 Killgore Trout
I hope you have a good time!
| 92 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:28:15pm |
| 93 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:28:26pm |
| 94 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:28:35pm |
re: #90 Athens Runaway
The closest thing to eternal life on Earth is a government program. If passed, we're stuck with it.
People are stupid, they like their free stuff. And if anyone tries to take away the free stuff, they get angry.
Didn't Cali kill off welfare? Or did that not go through? I didn't hear much on that.
| 95 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:28:35pm |
| 96 |
Athens Runaway Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:28:50pm |
re: #80 dugmartsch
I am too.
Afraid that the Republican party is in its death throes as evidenced by its complete inability to offer anything substantive during the process to reform health care in America.
Cuz they didn't offer up a viable alternative or anything...
//
| 97 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:28:54pm |
| 98 |
TheMatrix31 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:28:56pm |
re: #68 Killgore Trout
It's going to be a fun week on the wingnut blogs.
Enjoy yourself. While you go around scouring for nonsense, normal people will be pissed off about what just happened.
| 100 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:29:28pm |
re: #84 Killgore Trout
Bipartisan fascism!
have your fun now Killgore...and kiss your Golden Boy on the way out the door...you are in it like the rest of us...there is life beyond the internet, and you are in for a rude awakening
| 101 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:29:43pm |
re: #85 seamonkey
Is there room on the Escape Rocket? Oh shit, the GOVERNMENT owns that rocket!
There was a fuckin' bear in my seat.
| 102 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:29:47pm |
re: #56 bosforus
Those people have absolutely no way to provide for themselves. Obviously. Or they would have done it by now. They are completely without skills, and therefore are unemployable. They are utterly hopeless and know this and have no desire to move forward in their lives. They have absolutely no opportunities to advance in this life. This is why others, we, have to support them. Because of their inevitable, sad state.
Some people just don't it that way. I do. To assume everyone that needs help is lazy is simply incorrect. People need help, we are a rich country and we should help.
Before I get lots of people telling me that the private industry can help better than the government, my subjective view of history and the basic principle of a for profit business leaves me skeptical.
| 103 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:29:53pm |
re: #97 Thanos
I'm curious as to how this is going to affect med school applications and recruiting.
| 104 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:29:59pm |
re: #98 TheMatrix31
Enjoy yourself. While you go around scouring for nonsense, normal people will be pissed off about what just happened.
Didn't you get the memo? Only buttnurt nirther wingnuts are opposed to this...///
| 105 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:30:03pm |
Breaking news: Cellphone footage just taken out my window...
| 106 |
Captain Amercia Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:30:05pm |
re: #98 TheMatrix31
Enjoy yourself. While you go around scouring for nonsense, normal people will be pissed off about what just happened.
Especially when you are threatened with pay of the pokey.
| 107 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:30:08pm |
OK, I demand a 100% tax on McDonalds and all other fattening and unhealthy foods right now. An extra tax on the morbidly obese as well. If I am paying your health care, I can tell you how to be healthy.
| 108 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:30:09pm |
re: #98 TheMatrix31
Enjoy yourself. While you go around scouring for nonsense, normal people will be pissed off about what just happened.
And you and I need to get busy making sure the Seante sends this bill from Capital Hill to Boot Hill.
| 109 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:30:30pm |
re: #105 Killgore Trout
Breaking news: Cellphone footage just taken out my window...
[Video]
Oh shi-
| 111 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:30:51pm |
| 113 |
Varek Raith Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:31:03pm |
| 114 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:31:04pm |
re: #105 Killgore Trout
Do me a favor Killgore: Stuff a sock in it!
| 116 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:31:38pm |
re: #108 Dark_Falcon
And you and I need to get busy making sure the Senate sends this bill from Capital Hill to Boot Hill.
PIMF
| 117 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:31:42pm |
re: #93 Naso Tang
You really are an asshole tonight.
Maybe. But that's me talking. Not me asking that other people be forced to pay my way in life.
| 120 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:32:02pm |
re: #114 Dark_Falcon
I don't think I own socks. I'm not big on pants or shoes either.
| 121 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:32:15pm |
All this angst and big picture stuff!
I'm watching for a personal reason too. The reality on the ground in this game will matter under my roof. My wife is a juvenile rheumatoid arthritis patient. A childhood illness gets you a lifetime of pre existing condition status. Unemployed. She needs coverage and does not trust this bill to get it done, at all. Not sure, time will provide the reality. I'll be reporting back as we see it. Oh first report- No H1N1 vaccine for her yet.
Not a great omen there...
| 122 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:32:17pm |
re: #107 redshirt
OK, I demand a 100% tax on McDonalds and all other fattening and unhealthy foods right now. An extra tax on the morbidly obese as well. If I am paying your health care, I can tell you how to be healthy.
That angry soccer mom in the "no tax on juice drinks and sodas" commercial will have something to say about that!
| 123 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:32:29pm |
re: #120 Killgore Trout
I don't think I own socks. I'm not big on pants or shoes either.
I thought "pants" was a verb.
| 124 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:32:57pm |
re: #118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Kiss my ass! WOO HOO!
Your ass better fit into size 34 pants or I'm ordering an audit of your pantry.
| 125 |
J.S. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:33:14pm |
re: #107 redshirt
Oh, why comrade, we but need to also impose stringent taxation upon the capitalist smokers, the beer drinkers, the profit mongers, the consumers of all that is wont to give (shall we say?) pleasure! Ai, tax, tax, tax, and, and, perhaps a little will be left over for the -- ah -- enforcers?
| 126 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:33:15pm |
re: #98 TheMatrix31
I'm not sure "normal" people is the appropriate word. Let's just say that the people who actually pay any real taxes (fewer and fewer of us) are going to be just a wee bit upset.
| 127 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:33:26pm |
re: #123 Sharmuta
I thought "pants" was a verb.
No, pork is a verb. I'm pretty sure "pants" are fiction.
| 128 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:33:35pm |
cash rules...I pity the people that are bogged down with debt, their investments on paper, no where to go and no where to hide...you are at the mercy of the feds and they will eat you for lunch...sorry folks, I feel for you
| 129 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:33:36pm |
Just because assholes, freaks, goons and nuts oppose Obamacare doesn't create a compelling reason to support it.
There are assholes, goons freaks and nuts who supported it too.
Bad policy is bad policy.
At some point America will actually have to set about figuring out how to create a hyperproductive economy that will pay for all this shit. A "Facebook Economy" of slackers bitching about why no one has given them the job they want so they run a cyber cafe instead ain't gonna do it.
| 131 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:34:01pm |
re: #121 Rightwingconspirator
Oh. And so sorry about the pain meds.
/
(Sorrow sarcasm ding)
I'm truly sorry about her condition.
| 132 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:34:03pm |
| 133 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:34:09pm |
re: #127 Killgore Trout
No, pork is a verb. I'm pretty sure "pants" are fiction.
Welcome to my LMAO favorites.
| 134 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:34:19pm |
re: #107 redshirt
OK, I demand a 100% tax on McDonalds and all other fattening and unhealthy foods right now. An extra tax on the morbidly obese as well. If I am paying your health care, I can tell you how to be healthy.
Hey cool why don't I start a new business while I'm at it, when your house is burning down, I'll buy it from you for 10% of market price, then sell it back to you for 100% of market price! It's 100% non-gov't controled!
///
| 136 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:34:35pm |
| 137 |
lrsshadow Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:34:51pm |
re: #67 borgcube
Look at it this way. Those of us who pay for our own healthcare will probably get even better treatment as multitudes of providers will tell all of the freeloaders to go elsewhere as they will not participate in this bureaucratic monstrosity. The upcoming lawsuits should tie this thing up for years anyway. As always, the lawyers are the ones who really win here.
The federal commissioners in the bill will make the decisions as to what care is covered and what insurance is legal. The commissioners will also have the ability to shut down health care providers if they don't take the insurance approved by the government. If this gets through the Senate we will all be subject to the whims of unelected commissioners in the federal government.
| 138 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:35:09pm |
| 140 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:35:36pm |
re: #27 redshirt
Well I guess I can cancel my policy now. I mean why pay now when I can sign up when I need it?
Read this.
• Sec. 59b (pp. 297-299) says that when you file your taxes, you must include proof that you are in a qualified plan. If not, you will be fined thousands of dollars. Illegal immigrants are exempt from this requirement.
| 141 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:35:45pm |
re: #125 J.S.
Oh, why comrade, we but need to also impose stringent taxation upon the capitalist smokers, the beer drinkers, the profit mongers, the consumers of all that is wont to give (shall we say?) pleasure! Ai, tax, tax, tax, and, and, perhaps a little will be left over for the -- ah -- enforcers?
Why not, if this passes, we have decided to give the government power to do pretty much whatever they want. So much for the limitation of powers.
| 142 |
abolitionist Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:35:57pm |
re: #105 Killgore Trout
Breaking news: Cellphone footage just taken out my window...
[Video]
Sorry, that many horses is just not credible.
/
| 143 |
kellygrrrl Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:36:14pm |
what are the odds Harry Reid's spinal infusion has taken hold?
| 144 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:36:23pm |
Eh, I don't have a whole lot of trust for government programs - that said I have even less trust for industry & none for insurance vampires.
I'll be more interested in seeing what comes out of the conference committee.
William
| 145 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:36:34pm |
re: #128 albusteve
cash rules...I pity the people that are bogged down with debt, their investments on paper, no where to go and no where to hide...you are at the mercy of the feds and they will eat you for lunch...sorry folks, I feel for you
I blew ever cent I ever made.
SUCK ON THAT AMERICA!
/
| 146 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:36:41pm |
re: #131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Thanks friend. That little poll I tried there was just about a tie. This will be a hot running topic tonight. Folks are pissed.
| 147 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:36:46pm |
Democrats just love spending our money.
Democrats use grim unemployment numbers to call for more spending
Democrats seized on Friday's report that the nation's unemployment rate has reached a 26-year high of 10.2 percent to call for further tax and spending measures to bolster the economy.
House Appropriations Committee Chairman Rep. David Obey (D-Wis.) said the unemployment news was confirmation that February's $787 billion fiscal stimulus was not big enough.
We're broke so lets spend more money! Weee!!!
| 148 |
Captain Amercia Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:36:51pm |
re: #143 kellygrrrl
what are the odds Harry Reid's spinal infusion has taken hold?
Just in time for him to get run out of the Senate in 12 months.
| 149 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:36:56pm |
The CBO says that the interest payments on our debt will go from $170 Billion in 2009 to $799 Billion in 2019, whats to worry about?
///
| 150 |
J.S. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:37:11pm |
re: #141 redshirt
Yes, Yes, and Just in Time for the Fall of the Berlin Wall, 20 years hence! (ah, the irony of reversals...)
| 151 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:37:45pm |
re: #134 Pepper Fox
Hey cool why don't I start a new business while I'm at it, when your house is burning down, I'll buy it from you for 10% of market price, then sell it back to you for 100% of market price! It's 100% non-gov't controled!
///
Why don't I cancel my insurance, then call my agent and reinstate when my house is on fire.
| 152 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:38:04pm |
| 153 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:38:07pm |
re: #147 NJDhockeyfan
Democrats just love spending our money.
Democrats use grim unemployment numbers to call for more spending
We're broke so lets spend more money! Weee!!!
I assume by your tone you are ok with the amount of your money Republicans spend?
| 154 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:38:09pm |
re: #145 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I blew ever cent I ever made.
SUCK ON THAT AMERICA!
/
your're fucked...simple as that...I hope you have a job and work real hard
| 155 |
Varek Raith Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:38:23pm |
re: #147 NJDhockeyfan
Democrats just love spending our money.
Democrats use grim unemployment numbers to call for more spending
We're broke so lets spend more money! Weee!!!
Because we all know the Republicans were no different.
/Both parties are full of shit.
| 156 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:38:25pm |
re: #147 NJDhockeyfan
Good thing we have that stimulus that passed earlier- otherwise unemployment would be above 10% by now...
/wait...what?
| 157 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:38:39pm |
re: #153 Existential_Donuts
I assume by your tone you are ok with the amount of your money Republicans spend?
No I am not. Why do you ask?
| 158 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:38:43pm |
re: #117 cliffster
Maybe. But that's me talking. Not me asking that other people be forced to pay my way in life.
Give me a break. I don't know whether this bill is sensibly structured or not, but I do know that what we have is bullshit with nothing but loopholes for profit at someone's expense.
You already pay for other' peoples way in life and so do I, and I know plenty, personally, that I would object to doing that for.
But your comments, tonight, suggest that you don't see yourself as living in a society that has to deal with the good and the bad; you are just another "not in my neighborhood" tribalist.
| 159 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:38:48pm |
re: #145 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I blew ever cent I ever made.
SUCK ON THAT AMERICA!
/
(oh, and then some!)
hee hee!
| 160 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:39:08pm |
re: #139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Fair enough FBV, a smidge it is. Not that this describes your contributions to the tax base however I'm sure!
| 161 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:39:24pm |
re: #156 Fenway_Nation
Good thing we have that stimulus that passed earlier- otherwise unemployment would be above 10% by now...
/wait...what?
Without the stimulus it unemployment would have been at like, 20%.
/
| 163 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:40:13pm |
re: #147 NJDhockeyfan
Democrats just love spending our money.
Democrats use grim unemployment numbers to call for more spending
We're broke so lets spend more money! Weee!!!
That is so stupid. The insanity coming out of Congress is greater than that produced by Glen Beck!
| 164 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:40:49pm |
re: #105 Killgore Trout
Breaking news: Cellphone footage just taken out my window...
[Video]
Heh. "Montagues and Capulets" from Romeo and Juliet.
Ironically apropos, Kilgore.
| 165 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:41:06pm |
re: #158 Naso Tang
Give me a break. I don't know whether this bill is sensibly structured or not, but I do know that what we have is bullshit with nothing but loopholes for profit at someone's expense.
You already pay for other' peoples way in life and so do I, and I know plenty, personally, that I would object to doing that for.
But your comments, tonight, suggest that you don't see yourself as living in a society that has to deal with the good and the bad; you are just another "not in my neighborhood" tribalist.
I don't need DC to tell me to do good for my fellow Man. I do it on my own. What about you?
| 166 |
lrsshadow Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:41:12pm |
re: #105 Killgore Trout
Breaking news: Cellphone footage just taken out my window...
[Video]
dude you really should get an I Pod your cell phone camera is all grainy and only in black and white.
| 167 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:41:21pm |
re: #160 borgcube
Fair enough FBV, a smidge it is. Not that this describes your contributions to the tax base however I'm sure!
Well, a smidge more than a smidge.
| 168 |
prairiefire Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:41:30pm |
Redstate.com has crashed. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
| 170 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:41:43pm |
re: #152 The Sanity Inspector
May we all remember this list like we remember how they voted on Iraq.
| 171 |
JustMyView Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:41:52pm |
re: #27 redshirt
Well I guess I can cancel my policy now. I mean why pay now when I can sign up when I need it?
I don't know why you would say that. The whole point of the individual mandate is to get people into the system before they need care.
| 172 |
lrsshadow Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:42:45pm |
re: #140 solomonpanting
yah and it is up to the IRS to confirm you have applicable healthcare. Just who I want involved in my health care... the IRS... oh man
| 173 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:42:45pm |
This could be a blessing in disguise for the Repubs. This bill was crammed down the throats of the House without enough time to pick it apart. There will be plenty of time to pick it apart between now and when the Senate votes on their version. We'll be able to run against a socialist bill that barely had enough Dems to support it instead of a likely more moderate version that would come out of the Senate.
Good old Pelosi--she's great at passing things that never make it through the Senate.
| 174 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:43:42pm |
re: #171 JustMyView
I don't know why you would say that. The whole point of the individual mandate is to get people into the system before they need care.
Stop making sense. People here are upset about the money, the details of the actual plan seem not to matter at all.
| 175 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:44:48pm |
re: #161 bosforus
Reagan and Clinton probably saved or created one quadzilliongabillion jobs using Obama's metrics.
| 176 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:45:04pm |
re: #174 Existential_Donuts
Stop making sense. People here are upset about the money, the details of the actual plan seem not to matter at all.
Apparently they didn't to the plans authors...so why start now?
| 177 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:45:41pm |
re: #173 BryanS
This could be a blessing in disguise for the Repubs. This bill was crammed down the throats of the House without enough time to pick it apart. There will be plenty of time to pick it apart between now and when the Senate votes on their version. We'll be able to run against a socialist bill that barely had enough Dems to support it instead of a likely more moderate version that would come out of the Senate.
Good old Pelosi--she's great at passing things that never make it through the Senate.
She's a command-and-control big-government liberal. The phrase "real compromise" is not in her vocabulary.
| 178 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:45:42pm |
Next up:
Stim II, Immigration Reform, Cap and Trade
| 179 |
Mark Pennington Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:46:08pm |
All I know is...I hope this ensures that my sister won't be denied her 18 months of chemo treatments.
| 180 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:46:27pm |
re: #178 Thanos
I think you're missing a bailout or nationalization in that list.
| 181 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:46:34pm |
re: #177 Dark_Falcon
She's a command-and-control big-government liberal. The phrase "real compromise" is not in her vocabulary.
This is compromise. If there were no compromise this would be a single payer bill.
| 182 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:46:38pm |
re: #29 kellygrrrl
Shocker about Cao -- never heard of the guy. I'm guessing he'll be square in the wingnuts crosshairs tomorrow
Young man, IIRC, first Vietnamese-American congressman. Has two small daughters, who are cute as can be.
| 183 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:46:39pm |
re: #12 Thanos
If I really knew what were in it I could probably tell you whether I am for it or against it...
It probably doesn't matter what it says; in actual practice it will expand like a gas to fill every nook & cranny it can get into.
| 184 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:47:16pm |
re: #178 Thanos
Next up:
Stim II, Immigration Reform, Cap and Trade
what a fun guy...it's incremental, like a small leak
| 185 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:47:35pm |
re: #174 Existential_Donuts
Stop making sense. People here are upset about the money, the details of the actual plan seem not to matter at all.
What are the details? Did you read the 1990 pages? Did anyone who actually voted? It should have been out for weeks for people to study and comment on. I can guarantee that it is full of shit that you wouldn't even believe.
And yes, I am worried about the money. all 1.8 trillion of it. And the huge increase in my premium that is coming, ans well as my taxes, and the deficit.
| 186 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:47:47pm |
re: #179 beekiller
All I know is...I hope this ensures that my sister won't be denied her 18 months of chemo treatments.
All the best hopes for your sister winning her battle, but that could have happened without the government taking over health care.
| 187 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:47:53pm |
re: #155 Varek Raith
Because we all know the Republicans were no different.
/Both parties are full of shit.
Difference being is that we'd be inundated with denunciations of the Republicans' heartlessness for not breaking the bank soon enough.
| 188 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:48:04pm |
re: #178 Thanos
Next up:
Stim II, Immigration Reform, Cap and Trade
And if all of those are passed into law, I'm going to walk in front of a train, since the country I grew up in will be no more.
| 189 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:48:05pm |
re: #181 recusancy
This is compromise. If there were no compromise this would be a single payer bill.
Good point. The bill is getting hammered by the far left.
| 190 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:48:32pm |
re: #178 Thanos
I have this lingering warm feeling in my stomach at that thought.
Oh wait...that's my lunch trying to find it's way back up.
| 191 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:48:35pm |
re: #181 recusancy
This is compromise. If there were no compromise this would be a single payer bill.
A compromise of sorts, I suppose. It was a compromise between the far left and the moderate left.
| 192 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:48:43pm |
re: #78 McJenny50
How long does it usually take for the roll call to be posted?
It's up now. Check upthread.
| 193 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:48:53pm |
re: #179 beekiller
All I know is...I hope this ensures that my sister won't be denied her 18 months of chemo treatments.
Perhaps she'll be eligible within 18 months.
(Sorry to hear she's ill.)
| 194 |
gotfrags? Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:48:58pm |
| 195 |
JustMyView Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:49:04pm |
re: #173 BryanS
This bill was crammed down the throats of the House without enough time to pick it apart.
The basic structure of this bill has been known for months. Various cut-offs, subsidy levels, and such have been modified, but there is little that anyone who has been paying attention wouldn't have known a long time ago.
| 196 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:49:17pm |
'The Senate is the final hurdle hurl '.
FTFY///
| 197 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:49:27pm |
re: #191 BryanS
A compromise of sorts, I suppose. It was a compromise between the far left and the moderate left.
Well... Someone has to compromise because there's no moderate right at the moment.
| 198 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:49:31pm |
re: #188 Dark_Falcon
And if all of those are passed into law, I'm going to walk in front of a train, since the country I grew up in will be no more.
Which is why the Republicans should have tackled the latter two while they had control. Now we get the Dem crafted solutions because the nativists revolted in our party.
| 199 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:49:37pm |
re: #177 Dark_Falcon
She's a command-and-control big-government liberal. The phrase "real compromise" is not in her vocabulary.
She's actually very good at compromise - compromising my childrens' future
| 200 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:49:39pm |
re: #188 Dark_Falcon
And if all of those are passed into law, I'm going to walk in front of a train, since the country I grew up in will be no more.
Oh, come on, DF. Don't make us live without you.
| 201 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:49:55pm |
re: #165 cliffster
I don't need DC to tell me to do good for my fellow Man. I do it on my own. What about you?
What, you want a competition on who donated the most turkeys for the poor at thanksgiving, or clothes to the Salvation Army (with tax deductible receipts)? Who paid the most taxes? What?
Your words suggest you resent having a system that helps other citizens. We have had such systems for years. Do you object to being forced to pay unemployment insurance, disability insurance, social security insurance, road tax, car insurance, taxes and more?
Health insurance is the biggest remaining hole in the principle, and while I can accept that one system or another may have flaws, your attitude of absolute rejection on some principle that ignores what you already do on the same principle...well it irritates me because you are not contributing to the argument.
Go drink some tea .
| 202 |
Noah's Arrrgh Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:49:56pm |
It'll be interesting to see how the stock market reacts on Monday. My guess is that it will be driven lower on the news.
| 203 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:50:13pm |
I would be less opposed to these "health care reforms" if our elected leaders were participating in the new plans. Kind of like the citizens?
So, if Nancy Pelosi, and Barbara Boxer have the same public health care plan, that I, as a citizen of California have, I MIGHT buy into this.
| 204 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:50:15pm |
re: #181 recusancy
This is compromise. If there were no compromise this would be a single payer bill.
Compromise? Amending hasn't even started. The foot is in the door.
| 205 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:50:24pm |
re: #188 Dark_Falcon
And if all of those are passed into law, I'm going to walk in front of a train, since the country I grew up in will be no more.
nice...c'ya
| 207 |
lrsshadow Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:50:29pm |
If this thing gets past it is going to destroy health care, because it completely eliminates any direct finical responsibility from the participants. Once that becomes a problem then it will be in the public's interest to dictate a healthy life style and there goes our freedom. I also heard that there was a 5 cent a can tax on soda.
| 208 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:50:34pm |
All health insurance is collectivism regardless of who pays the premium.
| 209 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:51:02pm |
re: #203 Floral Giraffe
I would be less opposed to these "health care reforms" if our elected leaders were participating in the new plans. Kind of like the citizens?
So, if Nancy Pelosi, and Barbara Boxer have the same public health care plan, that I, as a citizen of California have, I MIGHT buy into this.
You will have the same options they have. That's part of the plan.
| 210 |
Raryn Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:51:06pm |
The irony of them doing this two days before the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall is so thick that one could probably swim through it.
| 211 |
TheMatrix31 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:51:06pm |
I wanna know who the FUCK voted for this SHIT.
| 212 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:51:15pm |
I have to say this...
My father in law's name is Don.
Don? I am so sorry you are even alive to watch this...
You have gone you entire life (born in the Oklahoma dustbowl years...) learned how to do without. Served to protect our country. Worked diligently to make sure that, while your family did not "suffer"; you did everything in your power to scrimp and save ever nickel you could to take care of your family...
...to see this new America.
I am sorry. I love you with all of my heart. And, I am really not sorry you are alive.
| 213 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:51:23pm |
Despite all my annoying comments, my point is this; The wingnut/Tea Party rhetoric about "death panels" and the "crown jewel of socialism" watered down the criticism of the Dem's healthcare reform efforts. Reality based criticism would have been much more effective. The best team won. Being more insane isn't going to solve your problems. Get smart, stay realistic.
| 214 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:51:26pm |
re: #188 Dark_Falcon
Please don't!
You can have a sleepy place at my house.
We NEED you.
(Teddy Bears are extra...)
| 215 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:51:28pm |
re: #188 Dark_Falcon
And if all of those are passed into law, I'm going to walk in front of a train, since the country I grew up in will be no more.
Whoa, DF. Deep breaths.
Joining the rest of Western Civilization on health care doesn't mean the end of the American Experiment. This country was based on the Social Contract. An expansion of that concept isn't necessarily the end of us.
| 216 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:51:44pm |
re: #197 recusancy
Well... Someone has to compromise because there's no moderate right at the moment.
Perhaps, but the starting point was so far left, there never was any chance for any moderate right politicians to compromise.
| 217 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:52:04pm |
re: #200 bosforus
Oh, come on, DF. Don't make us live without you.
hahaha!...in ten years it will be prohibitive to sit here and talk...but you will get by somehow
| 218 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:52:17pm |
re: #213 Killgore Trout
Being more insane isn't going to solve your problems. Get smart, stay realistic.
Repeated for emphasis.
| 219 |
J.S. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:52:36pm |
re: #188 Dark_Falcon
ACK! comrade, comrade, lighten up! -- all is not lost! Just think, you cam come to Canada when all else seems lost! ! !
| 220 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:52:47pm |
re: #204 redshirt
Yes! Exactly.
Like the 24 hour rule on say Balloon Boy or the Ft Hood shootings. We have not seen anything real yet. It's all partisan vapors.
| 221 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:52:49pm |
re: #185 redshirt
What are the details? Did you read the 1990 pages? Did anyone who actually voted? It should have been out for weeks for people to study and comment on. I can guarantee that it is full of shit that you wouldn't even believe.
And yes, I am worried about the money. all 1.8 trillion of it. And the huge increase in my premium that is coming, ans well as my taxes, and the deficit.
I don't have a fundamental distrust of the US government, and since my ideological views are represented by the majority, I am fine not reading the bill. I guess that makes me lazy.
I am not naive enough to think a complicated issue like health care can be summed up in a few pages, I would be much more dubious of a small bill.
I am not worried about the money, taxes to help people are good. Did I miss anything?
| 222 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:53:03pm |
re: #174 Existential_Donuts
As if you understand the bill whatsoever. No one does. That's enough for me to know that it's even worse than imagined. All you care about is that you now expect your neighbors to pay for your healthcare. Right? That's the bottom line for anyone who really believes in this thing if they fessed up.
| 223 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:53:10pm |
re: #209 recusancy
That is not true.
Elected "leaders" have their own, different health care plan.
Oh, and it's better than what they are proposing for "us".
| 224 |
BlackFedora Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:53:11pm |
Help us Glenn Beck. You're our only hope...
/sarcasm
| 226 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:53:14pm |
re: #201 Naso Tang
I see you disagree with me. I was not an asshole to you, as you are being to me. Recall who called who an asshole.
| 227 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:53:19pm |
re: #216 BryanS
Perhaps, but the starting point was so far left, there never was any chance for any moderate right politicians to compromise.
The starting point was the compromise position. That's how dems work.
| 228 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:53:35pm |
re: #183 The Sanity Inspector
It probably doesn't matter what it says; in actual practice it will expand like a gas to fill every nook & cranny it can get into.
Yep.
Once the camels nose gets into the tent there is no keeping the rest of him out. That is what is going to happen here as tinker and "fix" things over the coming years. This is going to grow and grow until everyone is on governmentcare, how else can they afford to keep supporting medicare? Put everyone on it and while also reducing what it provides, that seems to be the ultimate goal for "healthcare reform."
| 229 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:53:38pm |
re: #195 JustMyView
The basic structure of this bill has been known for months. Various cut-offs, subsidy levels, and such have been modified, but there is little that anyone who has been paying attention wouldn't have known a long time ago.
The basic form, yes. But 2000 pages tends to get a lot of crap thrown into it--a couple hundred of it slapped on in the last minute around midnight the day before the vote.
The mandate forbidding states/punishing them fr daring to cap damages on medical lawsuits was not known until recently.
| 231 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:53:56pm |
re: #203 Floral Giraffe
I would be less opposed to these "health care reforms" if our elected leaders were participating in the new plans. Kind of like the citizens?
So, if Nancy Pelosi, and Barbara Boxer have the same public health care plan, that I, as a citizen of California have, I MIGHT buy into this.
They are. Congress Critters choose from the same plans that other Federal employees do.
| 232 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:54:20pm |
While they're fixing health, how about seeing to the nation's? How the hell was the the UK Telegraph able to know that the Ft Hood shooter hung out with radicals like the 9-11 terrorists but the US army was oblivious...
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
| 233 |
Mark Pennington Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:55:14pm |
re: #193 solomonpanting
Perhaps she'll be eligible within 18 months.
(Sorry to hear she's ill.)
She actually has good insurance but is afraid they'll drop her since she isn't able to go back to work. They've already started denying some things but have paid for one chemo treatment.
Thank you.
| 234 |
webevintage Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:55:16pm |
re: #207 lrsshadow
If this thing gets past it is going to destroy health care, because it completely eliminates any direct finical responsibility from the participants. Once that becomes a problem then it will be in the public's interest to dictate a healthy life style and there goes our freedom. I also heard that there was a 5 cent a can tax on soda.
If only.
I'd love for tax on soda just to piss off that lady in those stupid "OMG my family will starve if we tax a can of soda" commercials.
I'm wondering how this will eliminate any direct fiscal responsibility from the participants since a large amount of those who chose the option of the public option health insurance will be paying premiums.
| 235 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:55:44pm |
re: #231 austin_blue
Are they being forced into the "public option" or do they get to keep their current health care plan...
| 236 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:55:45pm |
re: #213 Killgore Trout
Get smart, stay realistic.
The potential hurt from the realistic implications of this bill is really gonna smart.
| 237 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:55:50pm |
re: #67 borgcube
Look at it this way. Those of us who pay for our own healthcare will probably get even better treatment as multitudes of providers will tell all of the freeloaders to go elsewhere as they will not participate in this bureaucratic monstrosity. The upcoming lawsuits should tie this thing up for years anyway. As always, the lawyers are the ones who really win here.
DudeDudeDude, keep up, please! Health care is now a basic civil right. Things will swiftly evolve to the point where if a doctor refuses the charity cases, s/he will be sued on civil rights charges. How can you and your measly $300 per year co-insurance payment help the doctor make good on that?
| 238 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:55:56pm |
re: #207 lrsshadow
Once that becomes a problem then it will be in the public's interest to dictate a healthy life style and there goes our freedom.
How do you think they will dictate a healthy lifestyle?
| 239 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:56:14pm |
re: #226 cliffster
I see you disagree with me. I was not an asshole to you, as you are being to me. Recall who called who an asshole.
Your comment that I commented on was emotive and nothing else, but I apologize for my similar expression of emotion, notwithstanding that you haven't answered what I said.
Peace.
| 240 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:56:19pm |
re: #221 Existential_Donuts
I don't have a fundamental distrust of the US government, and since my ideological views are represented by the majority, I am fine not reading the bill. I guess that makes me lazy.
I am not naive enough to think a complicated issue like health care can be summed up in a few pages, I would be much more dubious of a small bill.
I am not worried about the money, taxes to help people are good. Did I miss anything?
So you don't mind being lied to? We were promised that this would be deficit neutral, and Obama promised my taxes wouldn't go up one cent ( I am well below the 250K threshold).
But I am happy that you are willing to pay more in taxes. Good for you.
| 241 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:56:43pm |
re: #211 TheMatrix31
You'll know, all right. And they'll probably have their excuses pre-written, unless they're representing a moonbat territory.
The laser beam is really going to focus in on the senate, though. Harder to hide there.
| 242 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:56:45pm |
re: #171 JustMyView
[deleted]
Bunch of comments, then you went away. Now? You're back?
Someone grilling chicken? Cause I smell some.
| 243 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:57:00pm |
re: #235 Floral Giraffe
Are they being forced into the "public option" or do they get to keep their current health care plan...
Nobody's being forced into the public option. It's an option. Take it if you like or get something else.
| 244 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:57:03pm |
re: #200 bosforus
Oh, come on, DF. Don't make us live without you.
It was mostly hyperbole. I'm just pissed at what Obama and Pelosi are doing and I'm terrified about the future.
| 245 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:57:05pm |
| 246 |
uncle_walter87 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:57:10pm |
re: #re: #103 Dan G.
I'm a college senior applying to medical school right now and this scares the hell outta me.
| 247 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:57:26pm |
re: #233 beekiller
She actually has good insurance but is afraid they'll drop her since she isn't able to go back to work. They've already started denying some things but have paid for one chemo treatment.
Thank you.
I'm sorry about your Sister my friend...The road ahead is tough..God bless her
| 248 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:57:57pm |
re: #246 uncle_walter87
I'm a Ph.D. Candidate in medical biochem/mol bio... (i.e. drugs and med tech). Me too.
| 249 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:58:00pm |
re: #237 The Sanity Inspector
I can't wait to see them try to collect the first fifteen thousand dollar fine from a non-participant.
| 251 |
J.S. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:58:37pm |
re: #232 tradewind
wow. america is as bad/screwed up as the UK (I'd never have thought it..)
| 252 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:58:49pm |
re: #243 recusancy
Nobody's being forced into the public option. It's an option. Take it if you like or get something else.
I know the concern for a lot of people is whether 'something else' will be available if (tax-supported) government service is one of the competitors in the market.
| 253 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:58:49pm |
| 254 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:59:01pm |
re: #239 Naso Tang
Peace. I don't want a goodwill pissing contest. I should have left "how about you?" off my comment.
| 255 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:59:08pm |
re: #243 recusancy
Nobody's being forced into the public option. It's an option. Take it if you like or get something else.
The problem is that the government will use mandates and subsidies to push people into it. The "public option" is a Trojan Horse. It must not be let into our country.
| 256 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:59:15pm |
re: #232 tradewind
While they're fixing health, how about seeing to the nation's? How the hell was the the UK Telegraph able to know that the Ft Hood shooter hung out with radicals like the 9-11 terrorists but the US army was oblivious...
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
They didn't. They said that his mother's funeral was held at the same mosque some of the 9/11 assholes attended and that he attended occasional services. They did *not* say he "hung out with radicals like the 9/11 terrorists".
Don't twist what was reported. It makes you look...
| 257 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:59:22pm |
re: #249 tradewind
That will look just like a late tax collection enforcement action.
| 258 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:59:29pm |
re: #243 recusancy
Nobody's being forced into the public option. It's an option. Take it if you like or get something else.
Not true. There is an 8% additional payrol tax the employer has to pay if they do not cover 75% of all health care costs for their employer. For many companies, it will be less expensive to drop health coverage altogether and force their employees into the "public option".
The Dems, ironically, are setting up a two tiered system of health care where all the poor and middle class will have no option but the public "option".
| 259 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:59:40pm |
re: #243 recusancy
Nobody's being forced into the public option. It's an option. Take it if you like or get something else.
How much of an option is it now that private insurers now have to compete with somebody who has regulatory power over them, can change the rules on the fly or can shut them down whenever they want?
| 260 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:59:41pm |
re: #248 Dan G.
I'm a Ph.D. Candidate in medical biochem/mol bio... (i.e. drugs and med tech). Me too.
I'm about to enter in to a career in biomedical equipment technology, this doesn't bother me one bit. I'm in the highest demand field in the nation!
| 261 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:59:48pm |
re: #233 beekiller
She actually has good insurance but is afraid they'll drop her since she isn't able to go back to work. They've already started denying some things but have paid for one chemo treatment.
Thank you.
She should be vehemently supportive of this bill then. She is exactly the type of person this bill is trying to help.
| 262 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:59:52pm |
re: #141 redshirt
Why not, if this passes, we have decided to give the government power to do pretty much whatever they want. So much for the limitation of powers.
"And so they gratefully accepted the manacles, to stop their hands from shaking."
| 263 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:00:11pm |
re: #240 redshirt
So you don't mind being lied to? We were promised that this would be deficit neutral, and Obama promised my taxes wouldn't go up one cent ( I am well below the 250K threshold).
But I am happy that you are willing to pay more in taxes. Good for you.
I hate to break it to you, but you are lied to by almost everyone that wants something from you.
Hyperbole and exaggeration is part of politics, I believed the "deficit neutral" line as much as you did. But in the game of politics, that is the shit that happens. On both sides.
Call me cynical, but I don't think one brand of liars is somehow better than others. I am motivated by my own self interest, like most people. This is how I get lower health care costs for my family, so I support it.
| 264 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:00:19pm |
re: #213 Killgore Trout
Great. More of the political game being more important than what actually just happened. It's way past time of getting/playing smart. Now it's time to not play at all.
| 265 |
uncle_walter87 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:00:39pm |
re: #250 Dan G.
Teeth? Yuck. I have a couple fall back plans if this goes downhill fast:
1.) Go ahead and go to medical school, then high tail it out of the country to do medical missions work overseas or
2.) Go ahead and take up my bosses offer to go to mortuary school and buy their funeral home from them.
#2 might see more business if this passes the Senate.
| 266 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:00:41pm |
re: #249 tradewind
I can't wait to see them try to collect the first fifteen thousand dollar fine from a non-participant.
Yeah! Especially in this time when prisoners are getting early release due to budgetary problems!
Free the criminals, but lock op the non participators!
| 267 |
Achilles Tang Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:00:42pm |
re: #254 cliffster
Peace. I don't want a goodwill pissing contest. I should have left "how about you?" off my comment.
Fair enough. The bell tolls midnight here and I am driving north all day tomorrow.
Goodnight.
| 268 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:01:02pm |
re: #207 lrsshadow
If this thing gets past it is going to destroy health care, because it completely eliminates any direct finical responsibility from the participants. Once that becomes a problem then it will be in the public's interest to dictate a healthy life style and there goes our freedom. I also heard that there was a 5 cent a can tax on soda.
I'm not sure WTF you're talking about. I'm pretty certain it's in everyone's best interest to live as healthy a lifestyle as possible- people live longer that way. Perhaps this will actually make people more aware of the need to live healthy.
And as far as a tax on soda? I welcome it. The stuff is garbage that does nothing for your body. I quit drinking them regularly years ago and only drink them occasionally. I don't miss it at all, and for folks who think that those who make bad decisions should have to pay for them- I would think a soda tax would be up their alley.
| 269 |
JustMyView Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:01:14pm |
re: #235 Floral Giraffe
Are they being forced into the "public option" or do they get to keep their current health care plan...
Nobody is being forced into the public option. That's why it's called, y'know, an option.
| 270 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:01:45pm |
re: #223 Floral Giraffe
That is not true.
Elected "leaders" have their own, different health care plan.
Oh, and it's better than what they are proposing for "us".
Just not true. False. Incorrect. Here:
[Link: www.usatoday.com...]
Passing bad info poisons the conversation.
| 271 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:01:57pm |
re: #260 Pepper Fox
Short term, I'm not worried, its the long game that's got me bugged. I'll see if I can find the stats of the difference in number of pieces of equipment per capita that the US has vs. centralized medicine (i.e. UK, etc...). They had way fewer devices and less tech in general and didn't adopt novel tech as quickly.
| 272 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:02:00pm |
re: #260 Pepper Fox
I'm about to enter in to a career in biomedical equipment technology, this doesn't bother me one bit. I'm in the highest demand field in the nation!
For now it is. Kinda nice that the legislation contains a special tax just for the industry you are going into, eh?
| 273 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:02:05pm |
Making people pay higher taxes for their cigarettes doesn't dictate any behavior, it just tries to sway it. On another note, I question the whole assumption that smoking adds to the country's financial problems because of higher medical costs for smokers. A real analysis would have looked at expected lifespans and the medical costs of the people who lived 20 more years because they didn't smoke. Cold way to look at it, yes. But math is supposed to be cold.
| 274 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:02:18pm |
| 275 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:02:35pm |
re: #265 uncle_walter87
Did you know that your nic makes me not want to trust you "straight up"?
How'd you come by that nic?
| 276 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:03:08pm |
re: #265 uncle_walter87
Fear is warranted, but don't panic. It sounds like you've got a good mind, keep it sharp.
| 277 |
funky chicken Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:03:10pm |
re: #35 karmic_inquisitor
I thank the "real conservatives" who :
1) stayed home when a sex scandal disgusted them in 2006 thereby handing Nancy Pelosi the speaker's gavel
2) stayed home because they could not bring themselves to vote for RINO John McCain.
How are those principled stances working out for you, assholes?
I didn't vote GOP in 2006 because I had an inside view of the fact that congress and the Bush DOD were still slashing active duty force levels and screwing the military while braying that only they "support the troops." They send our AF guys into war zones in planes that the worst civilian carrier here in the US would never consider using...the GOP (except for McCain and Graham and a very few others) was more concerned with rewarding cronies via earmarks that they were with sufficiently funding the military during 2 serious engagements.
Oh, rewarding cronies and Terry Schiavo and "defending marriage."
| 278 |
webevintage Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:03:43pm |
What a time for Beck's appendix to turn on him.
| 279 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:03:52pm |
More wonderful news concerning Obamacare.
Shutting off the miracle-drug spigot
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was right last week when she called her latest health-care-reform proposal a "his toric moment": After decades of life-saving and cost-cutting scientific innovations from drug and medical-device companies, the government is about to step in and stifle the R&D that is our best hope for improving health outcomes.
Pelosi's bill may cost pharmaceutical companies $150 billion over a decade -- nearly double the amount they conceded when they cut a White House-approved deal with Sen. Max Baucus this summer.
The Pelosi bill is a prescription for fewer new life-saving drugs. By stifling innovation, it would hurt not only industry, but also all of us who'd benefit from new-drug development.
Democrats in Washington are out to cut health-care costs at the expense of the research-intensive (as opposed to generic) pharmaceutical industry. Yet drugs often improve the span and quality of life in a remarkably cost-effective way.
Innovative new drugs have helped many patients avoid costly hospitalization, for example. From 1980 to 2000, the number of days in the hospital per 100 people fell from 129.7 to 56.6, a drop of 56 percent -- so that Americans avoided 206 million days of hospital care in 2000 alone, according to Medtap International, which provides health economics and outcomes-research services.
... Nor are the drug companies the only target. The Pelosi bill has $20 billion in "user fees" (read: taxes) on medical-device manufacturers. New devices such as artificial joints, pacemakers and insulin pumps are often developed by small startup companies -- those least capable of paying these punitive up-front regulatory expenses. And the working Senate bill aims at $40 billion from the industry.
The tactics employed by the administration and Congress add up to sheer bullying -- and while they're battering the drug industry, patients are the ones ultimately getting beaten up.
| 280 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:03:55pm |
Screw it. Bedtime.
G'night Jim-Bob.
| 281 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:03:56pm |
re: #270 austin_blue
Just not true. False. Incorrect. Here:
[Link: www.usatoday.com...]
Passing bad info poisons the conversation.
You support cap and trade- therefore you have ZERO credibility.
| 282 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:03:59pm |
re: #272 BryanS
They'll have to build new hospitals everyday for the baby boomers retiring regardless, and half this field will retire in the next 10 years. Someone has to fix the machines!
| 283 |
uncle_walter87 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:04:12pm |
re: #275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
It's a Ben Folds song (I'm a pianist when I'm not studying). Haha.
| 285 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:04:22pm |
re: #263 Existential_Donuts
I hate to break it to you, but you are lied to by almost everyone that wants something from you.
Hyperbole and exaggeration is part of politics, I believed the "deficit neutral" line as much as you did. But in the game of politics, that is the shit that happens. On both sides.
Call me cynical, but I don't think one brand of liars is somehow better than others. I am motivated by my own self interest, like most people. This is how I get lower health care costs for my family, so I support it.
No, I never believed it, but that is why I have a fundamental mistrust of government. I was responding to a statement made trusting government.
Remember what happened to Bush senior with "read my lips" Absolute statements like Obama made will not be forgiven.
| 286 |
JustMyView Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:04:30pm |
re: #242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
[deleted]
Bunch of comments, then you went away. Now? You're back?
I've been around. Just haven't commented much lately.
| 287 |
Varek Raith Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:04:40pm |
re: #281 Fenway_Nation
You support cap and trade- therefore you have ZERO credibility.
Shooting the messenger, much?
| 288 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:04:58pm |
re: #252 jaunte
I know the concern for a lot of people is whether 'something else' will be available if (tax-supported) government service is one of the competitors in the market.
Ask FedEx and UPS.
| 289 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:05:27pm |
re: #279 NJDhockeyfan
More wonderful news concerning Obamacare.
Poor pharmaceutical companies. I weep for them.
| 290 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:05:31pm |
re: #269 JustMyView
Nobody is being forced into the public option. That's why it's called, y'know, an option.
Yep. And the federal income tax and social security both began at the rate of 1%. One thing about government programs is that they are static./
| 291 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:05:33pm |
re: #269 JustMyView
Nobody is being forced into the public option. That's why it's called, y'know, an option.
Are you serious? What small employer wouldn't dump their people into the public option? If I owned a small business I'd dump your ass right now...
| 292 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:05:38pm |
re: #288 Decatur Deb
I mailed them a letter but no answer yet.
| 293 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:05:48pm |
| 294 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:06:20pm |
re: #281 Fenway_Nation
You support cap and trade- therefore you have ZERO credibility.
That appears on the surface to be a version of the ad hominen argument.
| 295 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:06:40pm |
re: #248 Dan G.
I'm a Ph.D. Candidate in medical biochem/mol bio... (i.e. drugs and med tech). Me too.
Best of luck. My wife's nephew started out major in molecular biology, and even published a paper or two. But he did the math as it existed at the time (four years ago) and decided the money was better in dentistry.
| 296 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:06:41pm |
re: #278 webevintage
What a time for Beck's appendix to turn on him.
It may have saved his life by preventing an on-air myocardial infarction.
| 297 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:06:54pm |
re: #267 Naso Tang
Fair enough. The bell tolls midnight here and I am driving north all day tomorrow.
Goodnight.
Drive safely.
| 298 |
Varek Raith Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:07:01pm |
| 299 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:07:03pm |
re: #289 recusancy
Poor pharmaceutical companies. I weep for them.
The ones who develop new life saving drugs? Yeah, lets prevent them from doing that. Great idea!
| 300 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:07:12pm |
re: #285 redshirt
No, I never believed it, but that is why I have a fundamental mistrust of government. I was responding to a statement made trusting government.
Remember what happened to Bush senior with "read my lips" Absolute statements like Obama made will not be forgiven.
Well, that is certainly a POV I would expect from a sane conservative. I can see how those things would bother a principled person with a different mindset.
| 301 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:07:17pm |
re: #279 NJDhockeyfan
More wonderful news concerning Obamacare.
No surprise there. Pelosi and the liberals do not understand the costs of drug research. They only see the money made on successful drugs and think "Those profits are too high! Big Pharma must be punished for its greed!" They don't see the tens of millions that those same companies pour into research that does not pan out. Given the number of drugs that fail, drug companies need to be able to reap large profits on the few that succeed or they will be unable to do research.
| 302 |
funky chicken Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:07:31pm |
re: #223 Floral Giraffe
That is not true.
Elected "leaders" have their own, different health care plan.
Oh, and it's better than what they are proposing for "us".
Lindsay Graham has very publicly called for congress to put itself into the same health plan as normal US citizens. Of course the vast majority of them absolutely refuse to consider it...and the GOP "leadership" would rather attend insane tea party/Bachmann rallies than pick up on such a good policy suggestion.
| 303 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:07:35pm |
re: #291 HoosierHoops
I don't even own a small business and I want to boot his ass, HH.
| 304 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:07:42pm |
re: #291 HoosierHoops
Are you serious? What small employer wouldn't dump their people into the public option? If I owned a small business I'd dump your ass right now...
That's kinda the point...
| 305 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:07:43pm |
| 306 |
JustMyView Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:07:50pm |
re: #258 BryanS
Not true. There is an 8% additional payrol tax the employer has to pay if they do not cover 75% of all health care costs for their employer. For many companies, it will be less expensive to drop health coverage altogether and force their employees into the "public option".
The Dems, ironically, are setting up a two tiered system of health care where all the poor and middle class will have no option but the public "option".
Even if your employer dropped your insurance plan, you would not have to join the public option plan. You would be eligible to buy insurance from a private company and, very likely, the rates would be lower than they are now if you were buying as an individual. Again, it's an option.
| 307 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:08:03pm |
re: #268 Sharmuta
And as far as a tax on soda? I welcome it. The stuff is garbage that does nothing for your body. I quit drinking them regularly years ago and only drink them occasionally. I don't miss it at all, and for folks who think that those who make bad decisions should have to pay for them- I would think a soda tax would be up their alley.
I am totally with you. If we can tax tobacco like crazy, I cannot for the life of me fathom how collecting 5 cents per can of high fructose corn syrup laden soft drink is objectionable. Do people deny there is an epidemic of obesity and related illnesses (esp. diabetes) in this country?
| 308 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:08:48pm |
re: #282 Pepper Fox
They'll have to build new hospitals everyday for the baby boomers retiring regardless, and half this field will retire in the next 10 years. Someone has to fix the machines!
You're making a big assumption. To control costs, there WILL be rationing. When the market is not there to control supply versus demand through the pricing mechanism, something has to act in the place of price. That something is the advisory panel, which will surely conclude it is more cost effective to spend money on the young's health care and not buy that expensive medical equipment on an older person in the process of dying. Sounds cold--and it is. That is how Europeans control health care costs. It's not a "death panel", but the last days of ones' life are often the most expensive for the least return (on life expectancy). Metrics for doing that cost/benefit analysis will be developed, and the amount of money approved will be weighed against those standards.
| 309 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:08:49pm |
re: #270 austin_blue
I do hope that you are correct, and I am wrong.
I need to do some research, to see...
THanks for the link!
| 310 |
webevintage Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:08:52pm |
re: #307 bratwurst
I am totally with you. If we can tax tobacco like crazy, I cannot for the life of me fathom how collecting 5 cents per can of high fructose corn syrup laden soft drink is objectionable. Do people deny there is an epidemic of obesity and related illnesses (esp. diabetes) in this country?
Because our kids will starve to death if we have a tax on soda.
/
| 311 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:08:59pm |
re: #301 Dark_Falcon
No surprise there. Pelosi and the liberals do not understand the costs of drug research. They only see the money made on successful drugs and think "Those profits are too high! Big Pharma must be punished for its greed!" They don't see the tens of millions that those same companies pour into research that does not pan out. Given the number of drugs that fail, drug companies need to be able to reap large profits on the few that succeed or they will be unable to do research.
Why is the first reaction always to defend the corporation against the citizenry?
| 312 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:09:14pm |
| 313 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:09:38pm |
re: #295 The Sanity Inspector
I'm still crunching said same numbers, but I've got a couple of patents under my belt as well, makes the calculus a bit more difficult... we'll see.
| 314 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:09:40pm |
re: #311 recusancy
Why is the first reaction always to defend the corporation against the citizenry?
A question I have had for many years. I think it speaks to the heart of the two ideologies.
| 315 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:10:15pm |
re: #308 BryanS
You're making a big assumption. To control costs, there WILL be rationing. When the market is not there to control supply versus demand through the pricing mechanism, something has to act in the place of price. That something is the advisory panel, which will surely conclude it is more cost effective to spend money on the young's health care and not buy that expensive medical equipment on an older person in the process of dying. Sounds cold--and it is. That is how Europeans control health care costs. It's not a "death panel", but the last days of ones' life are often the most expensive for the least return (on life expectancy). Metrics for doing that cost/benefit analysis will be developed, and the amount of money approved will be weighed against those standards.
Better for my field, spend money on people like me to keep old equipment running rather than buy new equipment that doesn't break down as often.
| 316 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:10:16pm |
re: #265 uncle_walter87
Teeth? Yuck. I have a couple fall back plans if this goes downhill fast:
1.) Go ahead and go to medical school, then high tail it out of the country to do medical missions work overseas or
2.) Go ahead and take up my bosses offer to go to mortuary school and buy their funeral home from them.#2 might see more business if this passes the Senate.
If anything more people will live through the individual mandates. Mind you I'm not happy about the tax and enforcement provisions. At the same time we will probably see an increase in insurance company profits because of the individual mandate in which people like me will be forced to get health insurance. This time at least it should be easy since the pre-existing condition clause will be history.
There will also be an increased need for health care professionals including doctors as the demand swings upwards. Salaries will either remain static or rise. Going to another country is not that simple especially if one expects to become a medical doctor there because of education and language standards. Unless of course you want to move to a 3rd world country.
| 317 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:10:36pm |
re: #288 Decatur Deb
Ask FedEx and UPS.
Yes. I'll be able to afford good health care from private carriers--most others, not so much. This program will really suck for the poor and the middle class.
| 318 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:10:41pm |
re: #304 Existential_Donuts
That's kinda the point...
And if the prospect of joining a public option pleases you, then you have drunk the Big Government Kool Aid.
| 319 |
Raryn Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:10:44pm |
re: #305 Dan G.
Here's a version of the stats: here. It appears to have come from the hoover inst. I don't know anything about them.
Hoover institute is a rather well known conservative thinktank. I don't agree with the bill myself, but I wouldn't call them exactly neutral.
i.e. I'd want to see the data behind those assertions.
| 320 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:11:02pm |
re: #289 recusancy
Poor pharmaceutical companies. I weep for them.
Imagine what your job would be like if your customers succeeded in petitioning government to make you produce your good or service below cost.
| 321 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:11:05pm |
Oh, doomsayers, I love you all.
Socialized health care! Scary!
Welcome, America, to the civilized world.
Cheers, Mr. Trout, you know the score.
And remember, conservative friends: you are no longer the majority. This is what the majority of Americans voted Obama to do. Medicare ended up being good, despite Reagan's dreadful prophecies of communism and the end of health for the country.
Maybe this won't be so bad after all. Just you wait.
| 322 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:11:14pm |
re: #307 bratwurst
re: #268 SharmutaAnd as far as a tax on soda? I welcome it. The stuff is garbage that does nothing for your body. I quit drinking them regularly years ago and only drink them occasionally. I don't miss it at all, and for folks who think that those who make bad decisions should have to pay for them- I would think a soda tax would be up their alley.
I am totally with you. If we can tax tobacco like crazy, I cannot for the life of me fathom how collecting 5 cents per can of high fructose corn syrup laden soft drink is objectionable. Do people deny there is an epidemic of obesity and related illnesses (esp. diabetes) in this country?
It's well documented that regular exercise contributes to a healthy individual. How long until the exercise police make the rounds?
| 323 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:11:17pm |
re: #306 JustMyView
Even if your employer dropped your insurance plan, you would not have to join the public option plan. You would be
eligible[mandated] to buy insurance from a private company and, very likely, the rates would be lower than they are now if you were buying as an individual. Again, it's an option.
Fixed that for ya.
| 324 |
J.S. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:11:31pm |
re: #307 bratwurst
Well, absolutely, comrade. now, I'd say 25 bucks per pack of smokes; 10 dollars per jug of cola; 20 bucks per pecan pie;; and sugar (gasp sugar? ! 1 why that'd be a luxury sure to fetch 15 bucks per pound...easy..) yeah, I'm with ya, comrade.
| 325 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:11:33pm |
Charles & Stinky need a BIIIG coffee pot for tonight.
Is that covered?
LOL!
| 326 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:11:42pm |
re: #301 Dark_Falcon
No surprise there. Pelosi and the liberals do not understand the costs of drug research. They only see the money made on successful drugs and think "Those profits are too high! Big Pharma must be punished for its greed!" They don't see the tens of millions that those same companies pour into research that does not pan out. Given the number of drugs that fail, drug companies need to be able to reap large profits on the few that succeed or they will be unable to do research.
Just like the oil companies and their use of profit to find new oil deposits.
| 327 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:11:51pm |
re: #278 webevintage
What a time for Beck's appendix to turn on him.
Yeah, if he'd waited he might have caught a break on the bill.
| 328 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:12:01pm |
Speaking of catfights, how about the clip from the BYU vs New Mexico womens soccer game. My kind of girl there..
| 329 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:12:17pm |
re: #311 recusancy
Why is the first reaction always to defend the corporation against the citizenry?
I don't see it that way. I see myself as defending both against a left-wing elite that is economically illiterate and despises essential American values.
| 330 |
redshirt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:12:18pm |
re: #321 mikhailtheplumber
Oh, doomsayers, I love you all.
Socialized health care! Scary!Welcome, America, to the civilized world.
Cheers, Mr. Trout, you know the score.
And remember, conservative friends: you are no longer the majority. This is what the majority of Americans voted Obama to do. Medicare ended up being good, despite Reagan's dreadful prophecies of communism and the end of health for the country.
Maybe this won't be so bad after all. Just you wait.
And medicare goes belly up in 2017.Then what?
| 331 |
Mark Pennington Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:12:22pm |
re: #261 recusancy
She should be vehemently supportive of this bill then. She is exactly the type of person this bill is trying to help.
She's a devout republican. She's my heart and my best friend but we are polar opposites. :D
| 332 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:12:22pm |
re: #307 bratwurst
Okay but I want the "fat food" tax to be scaled for my body mass index. If I'm not obese why should I pay extra for "fat" food? Soda? I'm half kidding here to point out the folly of micromanaging behavior with taxes.
What happens when so many people quit smoking the lower cig tax revenues hurt the budget? The state then has a financial interest in you smoking.
| 333 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:12:23pm |
re: #321 mikhailtheplumber
So good that they are now having to ration services.
| 334 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:12:52pm |
re: #213 Killgore Trout
Despite all my annoying comments, my point is this; The wingnut/Tea Party rhetoric about "death panels" and the "crown jewel of socialism" watered down the criticism of the Dem's healthcare reform efforts. Reality based criticism would have been much more effective. The best team won. Being more insane isn't going to solve your problems. Get smart, stay realistic.
socialized care is unavoidable...people are stupid or don't care in part...the greatest threat to smaller fiscally responsible govt is the huge mass of non tax paying voters...the future is easy to see, and just wait til the cost of energy spikes into the realm of the unaffordable for the middle class...you gloat now Killgore but you are not seeing the future of a shrinking class that pays the burden of the taxes to carry the rest...it is unsustainable or do you deny even that?...capitalism is our only way out...if this fails to create jobs and wealth then where do we turn to?...there will be blood on the streets in our lifetime if we don't turn from this path...you are simply naive, consumed with micro internet hypnosis, media oriented and don't even vote, the one tool Americans have to try to get us out from this fiscal and social dead end liberals are driving us to...laugh now amigo, and there is even more coming down the road...the govt is not your friend and you are not part of the elite power structure that will legislate it's own immunity from this tax and spend mess...you disdain children, fine...I have two and they will have to pay to carry your ass to the grave and frankly you don't deserve their generosity in that regard...go ahead and laugh amigo...but remember, you don't mean shit to anybody but yourself...that's just the way it is...you are expendable too...I have piles of cash to see me to my end because I have seen this shit coming my whole life...guess what, I'm going to have the last laugh bro, while you squander around hoping my kids cover your ass because you could not get it done for yourself when you had the chance and had to rely on somebody else.
| 335 |
Varek Raith Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:13:03pm |
re: #325 Floral Giraffe
Charles & Stinky need a BIIIG coffee pot for tonight.
Is that covered?
LOL!
We also need to fire up the grills and catapults!
| 336 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:13:28pm |
re: #317 BryanS
Yes. I'll be able to afford good health care from private carriers--most others, not so much. This program will really suck for the poor and the middle class.
Lol... It's FOR the poor and middle class. This is the same pretzel logic that has lead the previously anti medicare republicans to be vehement defenders of medicare. Now you're just looking out for the poor hu? Nice try.
| 337 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:13:34pm |
re: #333 Dan G.
So good that they are now having to ration services.
Well if you increase the demand for a product or service without increasing the supply, a shortage ensues. Every time.
| 338 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:13:43pm |
re: #307 bratwurst
I am totally with you. If we can tax tobacco like crazy, I cannot for the life of me fathom how collecting 5 cents per can of high fructose corn syrup laden soft drink is objectionable. Do people deny there is an epidemic of obesity and related illnesses (esp. diabetes) in this country?
I wish I could upding you a thousand times. I have no problem with taxing such an unhealthy product. I'm not a big fan of using taxation as a means to influence behavior, but I also doubt a five cent tax will reduce the number of sodas consumed in this country. Pretty sure the soda industry will be fine, and we'll have an additional source of revenue for Congress.
| 339 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:13:55pm |
re: #330 redshirt
And medicare goes belly up in 2017.Then what?
That's a surprisingly precise calculation you've got there. Can you back it up?
| 340 |
Raryn Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:13:56pm |
re: #329 Dark_Falcon
I don't see it that way. I see myself as defending both against a left-wing elite that is economically illiterate and despises essential American values.
Exactly. I'd defend the pharmaceutical companies right to free enterprise (within reason) as easily as any other corporation.
What do people think they're doing with those profits, converting them into gold coins and filling personal swimming pools?
| 341 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:14:14pm |
re: #306 JustMyView
Even if your employer dropped your insurance plan, you would not have to join the public option plan. You would be eligible to buy insurance from a private company and, very likely, the rates would be lower than they are now if you were buying as an individual. Again, it's an option.
You would not have the "option", really. You're employer pays the 8%, you are now in the public option. No real choice there. And since when can the poor and middle class pay for health care twice, nomatter how cheap it is? Your employer pays 8% for your "free" health care. You're not going to go out and buy a plan on top of that unless you are on the top of the pay scale.
| 342 |
webevintage Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:14:42pm |
re: #265 uncle_walter87
Teeth? Yuck. I have a couple fall back plans if this goes downhill fast:
1.) Go ahead and go to medical school, then high tail it out of the country to do medical missions work overseas or
How about you just stay here in the US and do your medical mission work in the areas Remote Area Medical has been doing their health care fairs in?
| 343 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:14:47pm |
re: #263 Existential_Donuts
Wow, are you going to be in for a surprise when your free shit doesn't materialize. Not to worry, you'll vote for and support the same liar who promises to fix what he promised to you before that never worked. What I don't understand is that you know they're all liars but apparently don't care and still bend over again and again. Some self interest you've got there. Oh, that's right...you believe it's your right to have your life choices subsidized by your neighbors. Now I get it.
| 344 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:14:51pm |
re: #326 NJDhockeyfan
Just like the oil companies and their use of profit to find new oil deposits.
Exactly. It not like all or even most of these profits are used to buy luxeries for fat-cats, despite what many lefties think. These companies use them to discover new technologies and resources. I trust them more than government because they actually have an incentive to succeed.
| 345 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:15:00pm |
re: #333 Dan G.
So good that they are now having to ration services.
Who's this mysterious "they" you speak about?
| 346 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:15:02pm |
re: #337 Mich-again
Well if you increase the demand for a product or service without increasing the supply, a shortage ensues. Every time.
And if you think we have a doctor shortage now you ain't seen nothin' yet.
| 347 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:15:29pm |
re: #318 Dark_Falcon
And if the prospect of joining a public option pleases you, then you have drunk the Big Government Kool Aid.
Ahh, the old "you're too dumb to know what's good for you" attack. I dunno, sounds like the way a Communist would think. Here's a news break: other people are just as smart as you, and some of them might disagree.
The fact is have not had any Kool Aid, I have actually thought about this. There is nothing 'pleasing' about any of this. I could easily say to you "well, if you like getting reamed by huge insurance, then you have drunk the Blue Cross Kool Aid"
Sounds sorta silly.
| 348 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:15:46pm |
re: #322 solomonpanting
It's well documented that regular exercise contributes to a healthy individual. How long until the exercise police make the rounds?
Pretty sure that won't be happening, but I will say our species didn't evolve from couch potatoes. We're supposed to be active.
| 349 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:15:49pm |
re: #322 solomonpanting
It's well documented that regular exercise contributes to a healthy individual. How long until the exercise police make the rounds?
But you are ok with the heavy tax load on cigarettes, right?
| 351 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:15:59pm |
re: #315 Pepper Fox
Better for my field, spend money on people like me to keep old equipment running rather than buy new equipment that doesn't break down as often.
If you think so, but there will be fewer old people to use your equipment. So there won't need to be as many people to repair equipment as you may think.
| 352 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:16:16pm |
re: #273 Mich-again
On another note, I question the whole assumption that smoking adds to the country's financial problems because of higher medical costs for smokers. A real analysis would have looked at expected lifespans and the medical costs of the people who lived 20 more years because they didn't smoke. Cold way to look at it, yes. But math is supposed to be cold.
Yes, and assertions are supposed to supported by evidence:
| 353 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:17:03pm |
re: #328 Mich-again
Speaking of catfights, how about the clip from the BYU vs New Mexico womens soccer game. My kind of girl there..
And people complain soccer is boring!
| 354 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:17:09pm |
re: #335 Varek Raith
We also need to fire up the grills and catapults!
No trolls so far. A lot of pissed off conservatives, but we're all playing by the rules. They'll be no flouncing from those posting right now. Anger, yes, but we'll keep it pointed at the legislation, where it belongs.
| 355 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:17:37pm |
re: #281 Fenway_Nation
You support cap and trade- therefore you have ZERO credibility.
Nice! Considering that my feelings on CO2 emissions pretty much mirror Charles', and that I feel that a cap-and-trade bill is the only way to get emitting industries to actually *act* on the need for change, you might want to think that credibility thing through.
But what does cap-and-trade have to do with pointing out that Congress Critters do *not*, in fact, have an insurance option not available to other Fed employees?
| 356 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:17:55pm |
re: #351 BryanS
If you think so, but there will be fewer old people to use your equipment. So there won't need to be as many people to repair equipment as you may think.
There's also the steady flow of planned obsolescence from equipment manufactures. Trust me, shit breaks. Stuff has to be frequently inspected.
| 357 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:18:00pm |
re: #322 solomonpanting
It's well documented that regular exercise contributes to a healthy individual. How long until the exercise police make the rounds?
Have you met my wife and daughters?
| 358 |
Varek Raith Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:18:32pm |
re: #354 Dark_Falcon
No trolls so far. A lot of pissed off conservatives, but we're all playing by the rules. They'll be no flouncing from those posting right now. Anger, yes, but we'll keep it pointed at the legislation, where it belongs.
I know, I hate the bill myself . My post was more for the overnight hours. ;)
| 359 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:18:33pm |
re: #354 Dark_Falcon
No trolls so far. A lot of pissed off conservatives, but we're all playing by the rules. They'll be no flouncing from those posting right now. Anger, yes, but we'll keep it pointed at the legislation, where it belongs.
Very true.
Still, I hope a good-spirited soul is willing to collect tonight's Hot Air comments.
I've got the feeling they're gonna be extra-crispy.
| 360 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:18:36pm |
re: #301 Dark_Falcon
No surprise there. Pelosi and the liberals do not understand the costs of drug research. They only see the money made on successful drugs and think "Those profits are too high! Big Pharma must be punished for its greed!" They don't see the tens of millions that those same companies pour into research that does not pan out. Given the number of drugs that fail, drug companies need to be able to reap large profits on the few that succeed or they will be unable to do research.
Plus, it takes highly educated and skilled researchers to come up with these medicines. People like that are less common than burger flippers, front-end aligners, and middle managers, and thus should command higher salaries.
| 361 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:18:48pm |
re: #349 bratwurst
But you are ok with the heavy tax load on cigarettes, right?
Not particularly. I see it merely as another way for government to collect money.
| 362 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:18:51pm |
| 363 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:19:05pm |
re: #348 Sharmuta
& #322
This arouses the libertarian streak I have. Where should we draw the line on government micromanaging us personally? The government is welcome to stay out of my bedroom and stay out of my diet.
| 364 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:19:12pm |
re: #336 recusancy
Lol... It's FOR the poor and middle class. This is the same pretzel logic that has lead the previously anti medicare republicans to be vehement defenders of medicare. Now you're just looking out for the poor hu? Nice try.
Are you conceding the argument that the 'public option' will be the only option available to the poor and the middle class? That seems to be the imbedded assumption in your reply. If so, it would be good to clear up the fact that you are in fact in favor of single payer health care and in favor of socialized medicine. Because the american people are not.
| 365 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:19:15pm |
It's certainly a "different" and "exciting" time to be living in.
I just wish the individual had more say in the outcome.
Less government = better, IMHO.
| 366 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:19:31pm |
re: #328 Mich-again
Speaking of catfights, how about the clip from the BYU vs New Mexico womens soccer game. My kind of girl there..
I saw that...Whistling and walking away...I was in a game once when the guard was trash talking me really really bad..we went up for a rebound and I slipped my foot under his and snapped his ankle..Ended his season..
Don't quote me! Don't judge me! Should have kept his mouth shut..
OK judge me..Talk shit and see where that gets you...
| 367 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:19:41pm |
What's goin on...
| 368 |
TheMatrix31 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:19:55pm |
re: #321 mikhailtheplumber
Tell me one place where its worked. Meaning, a place where the quality is excellent, services are rendered when necessary, the system isn't in massive debt, etc.
| 369 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:20:02pm |
re: #352 goddamnedfrank
Exactly..
"The reason the number is low is that for private pensions, Social Security, and Medicare -- the biggest factors in calculating costs to society -- smoking actually saves money," Sloan said. "Smokers die at a younger age and don’t draw on the funds they’ve paid into those systems."
| 370 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:20:08pm |
re: #357 Decatur Deb
Have you met my wife and daughters?
Heh. They can't be any more severe than my wife.
| 371 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:20:11pm |
re: #359 mikhailtheplumber
Very true.
Still, I hope a good-spirited soul is willing to collect tonight's Hot Air comments.
I've got the feeling they're gonna be extra-crazy.
fixed
| 372 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:20:12pm |
re: #345 mikhailtheplumber
Do you dispute the fact that the Medicare program will now not pay for certain services it did in the past in order to control costs?
| 373 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:20:23pm |
re: #321 mikhailtheplumber
Oh, doomsayers, I love you all.
Socialized health care! Scary!Welcome, America, to the civilized world.
Cheers, Mr. Trout, you know the score.
And remember, conservative friends: you are no longer the majority. This is what the majority of Americans voted Obama to do. Medicare ended up being good, despite Reagan's dreadful prophecies of communism and the end of health for the country.
Maybe this won't be so bad after all. Just you wait.
It's our children's futures we're worried about, friend. We're in the process of handing them a stack of debt from here to Saturn that could well break them.
| 374 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:20:24pm |
re: #360 The Sanity Inspector
Plus, it takes highly educated and skilled researchers to come up with these medicines. People like that are less common than burger flippers, front-end aligners, and middle managers, and thus should command higher salaries.
You are assuming that a) the researchers are getting all of that money and b) these researchers are only in it for the money.
If the insurance companies spent less on marketing, our drugs would be cheaper.
| 375 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:20:32pm |
re: #365 Floral Giraffe
It's certainly a "different" and "exciting" time to be living in.
I just wish the individual had more say in the outcome.
Less government = better, IMHO.
Quite Concur!
| 376 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:20:47pm |
re: #365 Floral Giraffe
It's certainly a "different" and "exciting" time to be living in.
I just wish the individual had more say in the outcome.
Less government = better, IMHO.
While sometimes true, that is a dangerous generalization.
Do not feed the Paulians.
/
| 377 |
J.S. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:21:22pm |
Now, ya see, if we done put a tax on food -- an especially foods like sugars and fats -- well now, that'd surely not only reduce the fatties (them being the poor and all -- them relying on that junk food for sustenance) (and, whom, of course, we all hate) but it'd like putting monies into the coffers of the governement! -- which, as we'll all agree, the govenment mightily needs -- to ya know, furhter it's interests (wink, wink, if ya'll get my drift..like puttin' money into freezers, etc..) Anywho, more taxes on that thar fat food -- make 'em skinny, as I call it -- and then we'll all benefit...'especially the chillen.
| 378 |
Promethea Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:21:30pm |
Jumping to the bottom of this thread without reading most of it, I have to say that if this abortion of a bill becomes law, then we can all date the Fall of the American Republic to November 7, 2009, the date we all became slaves to the Krazy Klown government.
Bread and Circuses anyone? Public healthcare is the same thing with a different name.
| 379 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:21:30pm |
re: #307 bratwurst
I am totally with you. If we can tax tobacco like crazy, I cannot for the life of me fathom how collecting 5 cents per can of high fructose corn syrup laden soft drink is objectionable. Do people deny there is an epidemic of obesity and related illnesses (esp. diabetes) in this country?
Agreed.
By the way Schalke played another nice match against Bayern today, didn't they?
| 380 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:21:41pm |
re: #374 Existential_Donuts
You are assuming that a) the researchers are getting all of that money and b) these researchers are only in it for the money.
If the insurance companies spent less on marketing, our drugs would be cheaper.
Paying more for prescription drugs is patriotic.
So is cutting off American's ability to buy cheaper drugs from Canada.
//
| 381 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:21:55pm |
True story: Pizza guy just came by. I told him the House just passed the healthcare bill and asked him if he was glad that he is now going to get free care. He said yes. It was "cool" in fact. I told him his tip was that I'm now paying for his healthcare and put exact change in his hand. He didn't have a clue.
Guess I have to order from another pizza place now.
| 382 |
Varek Raith Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:21:57pm |
re: #376 mikhailtheplumber
While sometimes true, that is a dangerous generalization.
Do not feed the Paulians.
/
It's a well known fact that Ronulans feed off of internet polling.
/...?
| 383 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:22:05pm |
re: #346 NJDhockeyfan
And if you think we have a doctor shortage now you ain't seen nothin' yet.
It all depends on how you define 'doctor,' and who decides what the qualifications are. When there is a shortage, the fastest way to increase the item in shortage is to redefine terms.
| 385 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:22:25pm |
re: #355 austin_blue
Because when myself and others point out what sectors will be adversely affected and how...with 10% unemployment already...you just spouted platitudes about how 'America should lead they way'.
Oh...and brace yourself for this one. I don't agree with Charles re; Global Warming.
| 386 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:22:33pm |
re: #368 TheMatrix31
Tell me one place where its worked. Meaning, a place where the quality is excellent, services are rendered when necessary, the system isn't in massive debt, etc.
Is there any answer to your question that will satisfy you? Nothing is perfect, there will always be problems with any system. It's not like the current system is perfect and we are changing it just for fun.
| 387 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:22:39pm |
re: #378 Promethea
Jumping to the bottom of this thread without reading most of it, I have to say that if this abortion of a bill becomes law, then we can all date the Fall of the American Republic to November 7, 2009, the date we all became slaves to the Krazy Klown government.
Bread and Circuses anyone? Public healthcare is the same thing with a different name.
If that's the case, can we at least get Glen Beck and Keith Olbermann throw to the lions?
/kidding
| 388 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:22:42pm |
re: #368 TheMatrix31
Tell me one place where its worked. Meaning, a place where the quality is excellent, services are rendered when necessary, the system isn't in massive debt, etc.
1) The new system is not the same as it is in Europe or Canada, so comparisons won't be accurate.
2) And yet, I think that the German experience, where there's a mixed system, is great. Check it out if you want. It is FOR SURE better than the American health system.
| 389 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:23:02pm |
re: #364 BryanS
Are you conceding the argument that the 'public option' will be the only option available to the poor and the middle class? That seems to be the imbedded assumption in your reply. If so, it would be good to clear up the fact that you are in fact in favor of single payer health care and in favor of socialized medicine. Because the american people are not.
Yes. I am immensely in favor of a single payer system. Simple. Efficient. Economical. That's not socialized medicine by the way. That's socialized insurance like Canada. Socialized medicine would be what's in the UK where the doctors are actual gov employees. I'm not for that.
| 390 |
webevintage Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:23:15pm |
re: #381 borgcube
I told him his tip was that I'm now paying for his healthcare and put exact change in his hand. He didn't have a clue.
Guess I have to order from another pizza place now.
That's nice, stiffing on a tip.
| 392 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:23:39pm |
re: #321 mikhailtheplumber
[...] Medicare ended up being good, despite Reagan's dreadful prophecies of communism [like a bill being passed to offer socialized health insurance?]and the end of health for the country.
Maybe this won't be so bad after all. Just you wait.
Seriously though, do you believe that just forcing others to pay for insurance will fix the problem (i.e. that some people cannot afford medical care)? How is subsidizing the health insurance of some, and forcing all to purchase health insurance, going to decrease the cost of medical care?
| 393 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:23:45pm |
It just seems so clear. We're letting the government co-opt the entire US health care system and one-sixth of the economy when history shows us how reckless this action will prove. We can look to...
Bailouts: They're Baaack
Post Office...self-explanatory
Infrastructure: crumbling
Medicare: On a fast track to bankruptcy, riddled with fraud.
Social Security: see above
Fannie
Freddie
FEMA
Flu shots: distribution nightmare, but GITMO's detainees are gettin' em, Robert Gibbs' protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.
| 394 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:23:48pm |
re: #364 BryanS
Are you conceding the argument that the 'public option' will be the only option available to the poor and the middle class? That seems to be the imbedded assumption in your reply. If so, it would be good to clear up the fact that you are in fact in favor of single payer health care and in favor of socialized medicine. Because the american people are not.
And medicare is a single payer system. I'm pretty sure the American people are for that. Are you against medicare?
| 395 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:23:49pm |
re: #379 austin_blue
Agreed.
By the way Schalke played another nice match against Bayern today, didn't they?
Good first half, but seemed to be playing the Bob Bradley "empty bucket" in the second. Still, a point on the road in Munich is nothing to sneeze at.
| 396 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:23:52pm |
| 397 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:24:05pm |
re: #378 Promethea
Jumping to the bottom of this thread without reading most of it, I have to say that if this abortion of a bill becomes law, then we can all date the Fall of the American Republic to November 7, 2009, the date we all became slaves to the Krazy Klown government.
Bread and Circuses anyone? Public healthcare is the same thing with a different name.
"The Fall of the American Republic"? Feeling melodramatic, I take it?
| 398 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:24:11pm |
re: #332 Rightwingconspirator
Okay but I want the "fat food" tax to be scaled for my body mass index. If I'm not obese why should I pay extra for "fat" food? Soda? I'm half kidding here to point out the folly of micromanaging behavior with taxes.
What happens when so many people quit smoking the lower cig tax revenues hurt the budget? The state then has a financial interest in you smoking.
Not really. Cigarette taxes do not begin to cover the long term medical costs of smoking.
Less smoking = less medical costs= less taxes to pay those medical costs= more money in my pocket.
| 399 |
Varek Raith Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:24:31pm |
| 400 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:24:47pm |
re: #378 Promethea
Jumping to the bottom of this thread without reading most of it, I have to say that if this abortion of a bill becomes law, then we can all date the Fall of the American Republic to November 7, 2009, the date we all became slaves to the Krazy Klown government.
Bread and Circuses anyone? Public healthcare is the same thing with a different name.
Once this health care disaster gets signed by the president is there a way for a future president to reverse it or will this be permanent?
| 401 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:24:56pm |
re: #374 Existential_Donuts
You are assuming that a) the researchers are getting all of that money and b) these researchers are only in it for the money.
If the insurance companies spent less on marketing, our drugs would be cheaper.
Who the hell are you to tell them how to spend their money? Provided that it is not deceptive, there is nothing wrong with insurance and drug companies advertising their products.
| 402 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:24:58pm |
re: #398 austin_blue
Not really. Cigarette taxes do not begin to cover the long term medical costs of smoking.
Less smoking = less medical costs= less taxes to pay those medical costs= more money in my pocket.
Good point. Same goes for all the asinine "sin taxes"
| 403 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:25:26pm |
re: #381 borgcube
True story: Pizza guy just came by. I told him the House just passed the healthcare bill and asked him if he was glad that he is now going to get free care. He said yes. It was "cool" in fact. I told him his tip was that I'm now paying for his healthcare and put exact change in his hand. He didn't have a clue.
Guess I have to order from another pizza place now.
Not tipping the pizza guy for that?
Actually, that's not cool.
| 404 |
Stanghazi Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:25:27pm |
re: #381 borgcube
True story: Pizza guy just came by. I told him the House just passed the healthcare bill and asked him if he was glad that he is now going to get free care. He said yes. It was "cool" in fact. I told him his tip was that I'm now paying for his healthcare and put exact change in his hand. He didn't have a clue.
Guess I have to order from another pizza place now.
That was MEAN.
| 405 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:25:36pm |
re: #385 Fenway_Nation
Because when myself and others point out what sectors will be adversely affected and how...with 10% unemployment already...you just spouted platitudes about how 'America should lead they way'.
Oh...and brace yourself for this one. I don't agree with Charles re; Global Warming.
I believe you! But unemployment is ephemeral. The need for an atmospheric upgrade isn't. Must be done.
| 406 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:25:42pm |
re: #390 webevintage
That's nothing, wait until the kid loses his job when the owner has to fire him because of what happened tonight.
| 407 |
aagcobb Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:25:46pm |
re: #318 Dark_Falcon
And if the prospect of joining a public option pleases you, then you have drunk the Big Government Kool Aid.
So, are you going to refuse medicare when you turn 65?
| 408 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:25:47pm |
re: #400 NJDhockeyfan
Once this health care disaster gets signed by the president is there a way for a future president to reverse it or will this be permanent?
There will. But it wouldn't be a popular move after people see that health reform didn't make us nazis or socialists.
| 409 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:25:48pm |
re: #352 goddamnedfrank
(Really... your nic...With all due respect,
Do you have) to?
| 410 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:26:09pm |
re: #363 Rightwingconspirator
& #322
This arouses the libertarian streak I have. Where should we draw the line on government micromanaging us personally? The government is welcome to stay out of my bedroom and stay out of my diet.
I'm not very big on using taxation as a means to control behavior, but I don't think that's what sin taxes end up doing anyways. If a person wants it enough, they'll pay extra to get it, and I think that's what the government is tapping into more than trying to control our "sin".
| 411 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:26:19pm |
re: #400 NJDhockeyfan
Once this health care disaster gets signed by the president is there a way for a future president to reverse it or will this be permanent?
It doesn't take a president, which is why I am bemused by the Conservative fixation on the executive branch. It takes control of congress, something we aren't going to have for a long while due to the conservative RINO witch hunt.
| 412 |
JustMyView Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:26:56pm |
re: #341 BryanS
You would not have the "option", really. You're employer pays the 8%, you are now in the public option. No real choice there. And since when can the poor and middle class pay for health care twice, nomatter how cheap it is? Your employer pays 8% for your "free" health care. You're not going to go out and buy a plan on top of that unless you are on the top of the pay scale.
I don't think that's the way it works. If your employer doesn't provide health insurance, he or she pays an 8% fine. You're on your own, and you can buy insurance from a private company or through a plan administered by the government.
| 413 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:27:12pm |
re: #384 Pepper Fox
[Link: imgur.com...]
That didn't take long
Joseph Cao
"Born of Satan"
Nice, these people. Way to add to the discussion!
| 414 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:27:17pm |
re: #401 Dark_Falcon
Who the hell are you to tell them how to spend their money? Provided that it is not deceptive, there is nothing wrong with insurance and drug companies advertising their products.
Who the hell are they to deny coverage to anyone that they can't profit from? Your gramma? Mine? Who are they to reap billions upon billions of dollars of profit from misery. Not 'misery' in the abstract sense, but actual physical misery?
| 415 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:27:17pm |
re: #400 NJDhockeyfan
Depends what the politicians trusted with power pursue. My guess is that the GOP will promise to reverse this, get elected, the pursue the social conservative agenda... again (same as with the Contract with America).
| 416 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:27:26pm |
re: #392 Dan G.
Seriously though, do you believe that just forcing others to pay for insurance will fix the problem (i.e. that some people cannot afford medical care)? How is subsidizing the health insurance of some, and forcing all to purchase health insurance, going to decrease the cost of medical care?
I think that a public option is bound to force the health insurance companies to lower the costs, yes. Granted, I agree that the law is not perfect, and that it should also tackle big problems in the health-providing and the pharmaceutical industries.
| 417 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:27:36pm |
re: #403 Gus 802
Not tipping the pizza guy for that?
Actually, that's not cool.
fuck it...you better start looking out for yourself instead of judging others on a blog...what do you do all day long?...how are you accumulating wealth to see you through?
| 418 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:28:03pm |
re: #417 albusteve
fuck it...you better start looking out for yourself instead of judging others on a blog...what do you do all day long?...how are you accumulating wealth to see you through?
Yeah, fuck it Steve. You should try it.
| 419 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:28:11pm |
re: #368 TheMatrix31
Tell me one place where its worked. Meaning, a place where the quality is excellent, services are rendered when necessary, the system isn't in massive debt, etc.
Italy and Israel, by personal experience.
| 420 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:28:24pm |
This thread is rocking!
Can we go back to sin tax? I wanna know more
/
| 421 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:28:36pm |
re: #389 recusancy
Yes. I am immensely in favor of a single payer system. Simple. Efficient. Economical. That's not socialized medicine by the way. That's socialized insurance like Canada. Socialized medicine would be what's in the UK where the doctors are actual gov employees. I'm not for that.
How is single payer not socialized medicine? If you have a single payer--the government--and that government sets prices, isn't that by definition socialism? Canada by the way makes it unlawful to practice medicine outside of the government system. That is a big reason many of them who become unhappy with their care come to the US. Thankfully the Dems aren't going that far yet, but their legislation achieves single payer by other means. Basically they set a percentage of payroll that no health insurance plan could ever be less expensive than for the poor and middle class. Private health insurance will cease to exist for the vast majority of Americans if this legislation actually becomes law. So much for increased choices.
| 422 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:28:44pm |
re: #411 Thanos
It doesn't take a president, which is why I am bemused by the Conservative fixation on the executive branch. It takes control of congress, something we aren't going to have for a long while due to the conservative RINO witch hunt.
veto...does anyone recall?
| 423 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:28:59pm |
re: #381 borgcube
Oh, boo. That was mean! He's a kid, and kids are by definition not very rational. They're wide-eyed liberals, usually, until they have a family and a mortgage, and a paycheck that clearly shows their tax bite. ///
| 424 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:29:32pm |
re: #420 HoosierHoops
This thread is rocking!
Can we go back to sin tax? I wanna know more
/
Thankfully, updinging you isn't a sin or taxed.
| 425 |
Varek Raith Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:29:43pm |
re: #422 albusteve
veto...does anyone recall?
Lot of good that'll do if this passes under the current Admin. ;)
| 426 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:30:00pm |
re: #416 mikhailtheplumber
What do you believe is the source for the high costs? Is it insurance markup? Pharm mark up? Service provider mark up? I've got my own ideas here, I'm just curious about the extent that you've thought this through.
| 427 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:30:23pm |
re: #410 Sharmuta
I'm not very big on using taxation as a means to control behavior, but I don't think that's what sin taxes end up doing anyways. If a person wants it enough, they'll pay extra to get it, and I think that's what the government is tapping into more than trying to control our "sin".
Few people complain about the tax revenue generated by tobacco and alcohol (physically addictive substances...and potentially deadly to boot), or casino gambling (psychologically addictive and invariable lead to a huge increase in bankruptcies wherever they open their doors). I am just not buying the idea that 5 cents per Mountain Dew is a step too far down the slippery slope.
| 428 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:30:54pm |
re: #422 albusteve
veto...does anyone recall?
Obama's not going to veto his signature legislation, so even if we win the presidency in 2012 there's nothing the exec branch can do about the legislation since it will have already been passed and signed. The only way to reverse it after it clears the senate will be to gain majority in congress and rewrite it.
| 429 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:30:55pm |
re: #418 Gus 802
Yeah, fuck it Steve. You should try it.
I've done what I had to do...the feds don't own me
| 430 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:31:24pm |
re: #411 Thanos
It doesn't take a president, which is why I am bemused by the Conservative fixation on the executive branch. It takes control of congress, something we aren't going to have for a long while due to the conservative RINO witch hunt.
Boy, howdy. Spot on, Thanos.
| 431 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:31:40pm |
re: #422 albusteve
A future president can't veto into the past.
| 432 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:31:41pm |
re: #394 recusancy
And medicare is a single payer system. I'm pretty sure the American people are for that. Are you against medicare?
Hence why it is so easy to contain the costs of that care, huh? I am opposed to a single payer setup for health care like how medicare is run. Republicans had a better way of doing the drug coverage through private insurers. It ended up actually costing less than many feared--because of competition. You may not like the "donut hole", but using the market as a pricing mechanism in the structure of the program has helped contain costs.
| 434 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:32:21pm |
re: #388 mikhailtheplumber
1) The new system is not the same as it is in Europe or Canada, so comparisons won't be accurate.
2) And yet, I think that the German experience, where there's a mixed system, is great. Check it out if you want. It is FOR SURE better than the American health system.
Currently, Medicare covers about 45 million people with total budgetary expenses, in 2007, of $440 billion. A program that promises to cover nearly 300 million people would seem to require a rather hefty amount. But, hey, money ain't everything. We'll make more!
| 435 |
Pepper Fox Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:32:22pm |
re: #413 austin_blue
Joseph Cao
"Born of Satan"
Nice, these people. Way to add to the discussion!
Sounds like sarcasm but it could also be a case of Poe's law.
| 436 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:32:50pm |
re: #429 albusteve
I've done what I had to do...the feds don't own me
What does that have to do with tipping the pizza guy? And then you go off and say that I shouldn't judge others because I said something about giving some kid a tip while asking me what I "do all day long?"
| 437 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:32:55pm |
re: #427 bratwurst
We could afford more than 5 cents a can tax if we stopped propping up domestic corn syrup production with corn subsidies. Internationally sourced sugar is a much cheaper sweetener.
| 438 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:33:01pm |
re: #428 Thanos
Obama's not going to veto his signature legislation, so even if we win the presidency in 2012 there's nothing the exec branch can do about the legislation since it will have already been passed and signed. The only way to reverse it after it clears the senate will be to gain majority in congress and rewrite it.
that's not what I meant...I was referring to the process, veto/over rule...it works if you can count the votes
| 439 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:33:09pm |
re: #405 austin_blue
Yeah...kinda interesting how all the solutions to stop global warming put forward so far seem to center around more and more government control of the private sector or our day-to-day lives.
| 440 |
JustMyView Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:33:22pm |
re: #368 TheMatrix31
Tell me one place where its worked. Meaning, a place where the quality is excellent, services are rendered when necessary, the system isn't in massive debt, etc.
With minor variations, that would be pretty much all of Western Europe and Japan.
| 441 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:33:24pm |
This country needs required coursework for basic economics. The pedantic "evil corporations" / "unjust profits" crap is mindless and stupid.
But hey - it makes people feel good, gets their blood boiling and makes them want to light torches and take to the streets.
| 442 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:33:28pm |
re: #433 Dan G.
What's funny is I was thinking of you earlier today and wondering where'd you gotten off to. Always good to see you, and thanks for the laugh.
| 443 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:34:00pm |
re: #437 jaunte
We could afford more than 5 cents a can tax if we stopped propping up domestic corn syrup production with corn subsidies. Internationally sourced sugar is a much cheaper sweetener.
Agreed...and we could enjoy better tasting soft drinks at the same time!
| 444 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:34:09pm |
re: #431 Dan G.
A future president can't veto into the past.
right...I was alluding to the power of the GOP to over ride a bill
| 445 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:34:16pm |
re: #438 albusteve
that's not what I meant...I was referring to the process, veto/over rule...it works if you can count the votes
??
Sorry can you be a bit more clear?
| 446 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:34:18pm |
re: #412 JustMyView
I don't think that's the way it works. If your employer doesn't provide health insurance, he or she pays an 8% fine. You're on your own, and you can buy insurance from a private company or through a plan administered by the government.
Maybe someone on this board can clarify, but that was my understanding. If you are a minimum wage employee, and your employer drops health coverage, you are not going to be able to afford to buy your own insurance. It was my understanding that the 8% payed for those people to be in the government plan.
| 447 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:34:38pm |
re: #441 karmic_inquisitor
This country needs required coursework for basic economics. The pedantic "evil corporations" / "unjust profits" crap is mindless and stupid.
But hey - it makes people feel good, gets their blood boiling and makes them want to light torches and take to the streets.
Tea party?
| 448 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:35:00pm |
re: #442 Sharmuta
Ph.D. 'ing, husbanding, and daddying. :) No offense, but I love those more than the lizards ;)
| 449 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:35:10pm |
re: #432 BryanS
Hence why it is so easy to contain the costs of that care, huh? I am opposed to a single payer setup for health care like how medicare is run. Republicans had a better way of doing the drug coverage through private insurers. It ended up actually costing less than many feared--because of competition. You may not like the "donut hole", but using the market as a pricing mechanism in the structure of the program has helped contain costs.
LOL.. Wait... You think the republican drug bill was a better way of doing it? None of it was paid for and the pharma companies wrote the damned thing so there wasn't much in the way of price negotiations. If you think that legislation was fiscally responsible your nuts.
| 450 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:35:22pm |
re: #426 Dan G.
What do you believe is the source for the high costs? Is it insurance markup? Pharm mark up? Service provider mark up? I've got my own ideas here, I'm just curious about the extent that you've thought this through.
As far as I know (and I'm new to the American system, so it's not that much, admittedly) it's based in a variety of reasons. I think that price hiking in any of these industries generates an upward price spiral, as they try to get the other sections of the "health production" section to face the costs.
But there are many other problems: the insane need for MDs and hospitals to buy extremely expensive insurance, a medicine that avoids prevention, which would save tons of money, for example.
The fact that you almost have to mortgage your house to get an ultrasound scan cannot be explained by simple costs. The supply/demand relation is outrageously warped in the American system.
| 451 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:35:50pm |
re: #337 Mich-again
Well if you increase the demand for a product or service without increasing the supply, a shortage ensues. Every time.
And what could possibly be standing in the way of an increased supply of doctors?
/800lb gorilla
| 452 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:36:08pm |
re: #414 Existential_Donuts
Who the hell are they to deny coverage to anyone that they can't profit from? Your gramma? Mine? Who are they to reap billions upon billions of dollars of profit from misery. Not 'misery' in the abstract sense, but actual physical misery?
I'm far more comfortable with self-interested companies than altruistic government. Money minded assholes are at least predictable, and can be influenced. Government may well decided the their scheme is "the fair way" and jam it through regardless of costs. Corporations also don't have the use of the FBI and DEA to enforce their decisions.
| 453 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:36:16pm |
re: #432 BryanS
Hence why it is so easy to contain the costs of that care, huh? I am opposed to a single payer setup for health care like how medicare is run. Republicans had a better way of doing the drug coverage through private insurers. It ended up actually costing less than many feared--because of competition. You may not like the "donut hole", but using the market as a pricing mechanism in the structure of the program has helped contain costs.
And you didn't answer my question. Are you for medicare?
| 454 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:36:19pm |
re: #427 bratwurst
Education would go further than taxation in helping people who need it most re the soft drink/candy thing. When I see obviously financially challenged people lined up at the local ___ ( fill in with unhealthy fast-food drive-through of choice) forking over two or three times as much money for a tenth of the nutrition they could get by shopping and cooking, it just reinforces the belief that it's the ignorance, not the high-fructose corn syrup, that's more problematic.
| 455 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:36:30pm |
re: #436 Gus 802
What does that have to do with tipping the pizza guy? And then you go off and say that I shouldn't judge others because I said something about giving some kid a tip while asking me what I "do all day long?"
someone judged the pizza buyer as unfair because he didn't tip...it's not the tip it's the two principles...not judging others and warning some fool kid that he better be responsible foe himself...you can't win the game from tips
| 456 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:36:35pm |
re: #424 Sharmuta
Thankfully, updinging you isn't a sin or taxed.
LOL
did you see the thread about a year ago when someone said I was a sinner for sneaking Cuban Cigars across the border?
I blamed my buddies when we drove up to Windsor..
They weren't buying it...I'm a bad boy..
*wink*
| 457 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:36:55pm |
I don't know why we are talking about drugs, we already got free drugs for life from that commie pinko Bush... this is about health insurance.
//
| 458 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:37:15pm |
I just want it all, and for it to be FREE!
Is that too much to ask for?
///do I really have to?
| 459 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:37:18pm |
re: #448 Dan G.
Ph.D. 'ing, husbanding, and daddying. :) No offense, but I love those more than the lizards ;)
Can't blame you for that! :)
| 460 |
Promethea Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:37:31pm |
Please let's not confuse Medicare with socialized medicine. Medicare was instituted because insurance companies routinely dropped older customers after they had a major illness which usually developed after they were 65.
For example, I personally paid for insurance for all the many years that I was a young woman. I never made an insurance claim except for the expenses incurred during childbirth.
Then, as is typical, when I became older, I incurred some important medical expenses. That's when the insurance companies would have dropped me, were it not for Medicare. Now I pay for Medicare plus I pay a large sum for supplemental insurance, as does my husband. Together we pay a lot of money to both Medicare and for our supplemental insurance. We are not living on charity. We are paying our way.
If we needed charity, then we could get Medicaid and Medicare.
I think there is a lot of confusion about what Medicare is for and what the "public option" is. The "public option" means that me and my husband will have to pay for anybody who doesn't have insurance, for whatever reason.
| 461 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:37:36pm |
re: #439 Fenway_Nation
Yeah...kinda interesting how all the solutions to stop global warming put forward so far seem to center around more and more government control of the private sector or our day-to-day lives.
I am guessing you probably don't believe in global warming, but assuming for one minute that you did. How would you address it?
| 462 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:37:44pm |
re: #374 Existential_Donuts
You are assuming that a) the researchers are getting all of that money and b) these researchers are only in it for the money. [...]
Don't overstate what I said; I'm assuming neither of those things.
| 463 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:37:48pm |
re: #456 HoosierHoops
LOL
did you see the thread about a year ago when someone said I was a sinner for sneaking Cuban Cigars across the border?
I blamed my buddies when we drove up to Windsor..
They weren't buying it...I'm a bad boy..
*wink*
Ppfffttt! Who was that, rodan?!
| 464 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:38:04pm |
re: #449 recusancy
LOL.. Wait... You think the republican drug bill was a better way of doing it? None of it was paid for and the pharma companies wrote the damned thing so there wasn't much in the way of price negotiations. If you think that legislation was fiscally responsible your nuts.
As of January 2008, total Medicare spending for prescription drug benefits was projected to drop from $40.5 billion in 2007 to $36 billion in 2008. One factor contributing to lower costs is the increased use of generic drugs.[4] Shortly after the release of the 2008 Medicare Trustees' Report,[25] the Chief Actuary testified that the 10-year cost of Medicare drug benefit is 37% lower than originally projected in 2003, and 17% percent lower than last year's projections.[26]
Seems like it was in fact a fiscally responsible way to manage the program.
| 465 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:38:18pm |
re: #400 NJDhockeyfan
Once this health care disaster gets signed by the president is there a way for a future president to reverse it or will this be permanent?
You tell me, has Obama repealed DOMA simply because he publically disagrees with it, or has he honored his obligations to faithfully execute and support all laws legally enacted prior to his taking office?
Seriously, what the hell kind of question was that?
| 466 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:38:19pm |
re: #416 mikhailtheplumber
I think that a public option is bound to force the health insurance companies to lower the costs, yes. Granted, I agree that the law is not perfect, and that it should also tackle big problems in the health-providing and the pharmaceutical industries.
And how will they do that?
How will these health insurance companies lower the costs of care? Will they pay providers less? Will they get the insured to accept lower cost therapies? Or fewer treatment options?
You just bombed the thread - how, kind sir, will these costs be reduced?
| 467 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:38:39pm |
re: #454 tradewind
Education would go further than taxation in helping people who need it most re the soft drink/candy thing. When I see obviously financially challenged people lined up at the local ___ ( fill in with unhealthy fast-food drive-through of choice) forking over two or three times as much money for a tenth of the nutrition they could get by shopping and cooking, it just reinforces the belief that it's the ignorance, not the high-fructose corn syrup, that's more problematic.
No doubt about it. Education has slowly but surely reduced the % of smokers in this country (along with...uh...cancer), but we are still collecting taxes on cigarettes.
| 468 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:38:45pm |
re: #463 Sharmuta
I think it was Mothra?
LOL!
| 469 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:38:58pm |
re: #445 Thanos
??
Sorry can you be a bit more clear?
I was not referring to this bill in particular...but to the fact that congress can over ride legislation, defeat a veto...I'm out of context, obviously
| 470 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:39:06pm |
re: #455 albusteve
someone judged the pizza buyer as unfair because he didn't tip...it's not the tip it's the two principles...not judging others and warning some fool kid that he better be responsible foe himself...you can't win the game from tips
We must live in different worlds. Typically, if you start talking politics with the pizza delivery guy that you don't know that's crazy talk. It's like bringing up politics with a waiter and then, upon finding that you disagree with their politics, leaving them a bad tip. Sorry but that's the MO for ornery old cranks.
| 471 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:39:07pm |
re: #452 Dark_Falcon
I'm far more comfortable with self-interested companies than altruistic government. Money minded assholes are at least predictable, and can be influenced. Government may well decided the their scheme is "the fair way" and jam it through regardless of costs. Corporations also don't have the use of the FBI and DEA to enforce their decisions.
I respectfully disagree with almost all of that, save the fact that money minded assholes are predictable. I would submit that money minded government assholes are also predictable. And accountable to me and you.
| 472 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:39:23pm |
Today the Texas 'Longhorns' beat the Central Florida 'Knights' 35-3
In other News...
The University of Southern California 'Trojans' beat the Convent of the Sacred Heart 'Rulersmackers' 118-0
///
| 473 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:39:28pm |
re: #414 Existential_Donuts
Who the hell are they to deny coverage to anyone that they can't profit from? Your gramma? Mine? Who are they to reap billions upon billions of dollars of profit from misery. Not 'misery' in the abstract sense, but actual physical misery?
You are aware that health insurance companies make a staggering 2% profit, aren't you?
| 474 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:39:47pm |
re: #462 The Sanity Inspector
Don't overstate what I said; I'm assuming neither of those things.
fair enough!
| 475 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:40:01pm |
re: #453 recusancy
And you didn't answer my question. Are you for medicare?
I thought I did answer it--no, I am not in favor of a single payer system for senior health care. I would much rather the program work more like the drug program--where private companies are selected by seniors and the government kicks in to make the coverage affordable. It's not a yes or no question.
| 476 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:40:22pm |
re: #439 Fenway_Nation
Yeah...kinda interesting how all the solutions to stop global warming put forward so far seem to center around more and more government control of the private sector or our day-to-day lives.
Here, this is a basic allegory of public policy:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
This is what has happened. The fact is is that without prodding, industry will not change. What other control mechanism is there than government action. Are you really that naive?
| 477 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:40:30pm |
BTW, a quick thank-you to Charles for letting us go at it like this tonight, even though he's for the bill. Not all hosts would be so gracious with their bandwidth.
| 478 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:40:45pm |
re: #460 Promethea
I think there is a lot of confusion about what Medicare is for and what the "public option" is. The "public option" means that me and my husband will have to pay for anybody who doesn't have insurance, for whatever reason.
No. The public option would be a government health insurance plan. If you wanted in on it you'd have to pay premiums to it just like a private company. If not then you pay a private company. It will not be a subsidized plan - for the purposes of keeping private ins competitive with it.
| 479 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:40:46pm |
re: #450 mikhailtheplumber
Thanks. I'm of the opinion that the primary reason that insurance is so expensive because laws mandating certain coverage preclude it from being insurance anymore (i.e. a hedge against an uncertainty) and force the insurance companies to become subsidizers (which they in turn charge the insured).
As for costly equipment:
[...] The fact that you almost have to mortgage your house to get an ultrasound scan cannot be explained by simple costs. [...]
Hyperbolic much? 4D ultrasound of my son (vanity service), without insurance was $400.00, no mortgage necessary.
The fact of the matter is that medicine is VALUABLE, it should be pricey. Insurance should be allowed to be just that... a means of managing risk, not a means of subsidizing definite occurrences (use a different vehicle/service towards those ends).
| 480 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:41:10pm |
re: #470 Gus 802
We must live in different worlds. Typically, if you start talking politics with the pizza delivery guy that you don't know that's crazy talk. It's like bringing up politics with a waiter and then, upon finding that you disagree with their politics, leaving them a bad tip. Sorry but that's the MO for ornery old cranks.
it was not my thing, I just responded to a post, not yours, sorry...DarkFalcon I think
| 481 |
webevintage Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:41:24pm |
re: #464 BryanS
Seems like it was in fact a fiscally responsible way to manage the program.
But if they had instead allowed Medicare to negotiate drug prices with the drug companies like the VA does then wouldn't that have been the more fiscally responsible move and would have helped those folks stuck in that ridiculous "doughnut hole"?
| 482 |
JustMyView Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:41:25pm |
re: #446 BryanS
Maybe someone on this board can clarify, but that was my understanding. If you are a minimum wage employee, and your employer drops health coverage, you are not going to be able to afford to buy your own insurance. It was my understanding that the 8% payed for those people to be in the government plan.
Low-income employees whose employers do not provide insurance will be eligible for subsidies, but they can use it to buy whichever insurance they want and can afford.
| 483 |
Randall Gross Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:41:26pm |
Time for me to get some sleeps, play nice lizards,
| 484 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:41:35pm |
re: #458 Floral Giraffe
I just want it all, and for it to be FREE!
Is that too much to ask for?
Of course not... you're what's known as a core demographic.
All they ask is that you show up (or delegate) every two years and look for the candidate with the (D).
| 485 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:41:55pm |
re: #480 albusteve
it was not my thing, I just responded to a post, not yours, sorry...DarkFalcon I think
OK, never mind then.
| 486 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:41:57pm |
re: #466 karmic_inquisitor
And how will they do that?
How will these health insurance companies lower the costs of care? Will they pay providers less? Will they get the insured to accept lower cost therapies? Or fewer treatment options?
You just bombed the thread - how, kind sir, will these costs be reduced?
You're treating the healthcare system as if it were a perfect competition scenario a-la-Adam Smith.
It is not.
Wait until the new system is in place. If prices hike, or coverage becomes awful, I will humbly apologize and admit the wisdom of an overly expensive system which leaves millions without coverage.
| 487 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:41:59pm |
re: #400 NJDhockeyfan
Once this health care disaster gets signed by the president is there a way for a future president to reverse it or will this be permanent?
They finally repealed Prohibition, after a decade of folly.
| 488 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:42:19pm |
re: #473 solomonpanting
You are aware that health insurance companies make a staggering 2% profit, aren't you?
Yeah, those insurance companies are barely holding on. They pay out hundreds of millions of dollars to individuals, they RAKE in the money. If that is 2%, then that is too much.
| 489 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:42:41pm |
re: #477 The Sanity Inspector
BTW, a quick thank-you to Charles for letting us go at it like this tonight, even though he's for the bill. Not all hosts would be so gracious with their bandwidth.
Amen. This thread is a classic example of why LGF is so great. I would be surprised if there is ANYWHERE else online where people who hold such dramatically different opinions on this topic are having such a civil discussion tonight. Kudos to all lizards across the political spectrum.
| 490 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:42:49pm |
re: #471 Existential_Donuts
I respectfully disagree with almost all of that, save the fact that money minded assholes are predictable. I would submit that money minded government assholes are also predictable. And accountable to me and you.
Yes - so when a new treatment comes available that is expensive, people will call their congressional representatives and demand that it be covered. Bam! The congress gives us all the option of that treatment.
Yup - that will lower costs.
It is a basic fact of economics that if a government gives unlimited resources for its people to consume that the people consume less of them.
/
| 491 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:42:51pm |
re: #463 Sharmuta
Ppfffttt! Who was that, rodan?!
Rodan had been banned by that point, as I remember.
| 492 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:43:13pm |
re: #475 BryanS
I thought I did answer it--no, I am not in favor of a single payer system for senior health care. I would much rather the program work more like the drug program--where private companies are selected by seniors and the government kicks in to make the coverage affordable. It's not a yes or no question.
So you're for the companies telling the government what they should pay and having the govt being obligated to pay that amount? Government should not have leverage to negotiate prices down? Are you secretly Dick Cheney?
| 493 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:43:45pm |
re: #479 Dan G.
Thanks. I'm of the opinion that the primary reason that insurance is so expensive because laws mandating certain coverage preclude it from being insurance anymore (i.e. a hedge against an uncertainty) and force the insurance companies to become subsidizers (which they in turn charge the insured).
Exactly. Over the decades health insurance has become subjected to a classic case of mission creep.
| 494 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:43:48pm |
re: #467 bratwurst
Tobacco can be classified as a drug. Food, even junk, not so much. It's a slippery slope, because you get into percentages of this and that and what constitutes a ' soft drink '.
| 495 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:44:08pm |
re: #484 tradewind
Do I have to bring my ACORN badge?
///
| 496 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:44:15pm |
re: #455 albusteve
If just five people did that to the kid tonight, that would be more valuable to him than then tips he'd earn. By far.
| 497 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:44:40pm |
re: #487 The Sanity Inspector
They finally repealed Prohibition, after a decade of folly.
I am not sure if once the government system is in place that the genie is, in effect, out of the bottle.
| 498 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:44:53pm |
re: #488 Existential_Donuts
Yeah, those insurance companies are barely holding on. They pay out hundreds of millions of dollars to individuals, they RAKE in the money. If that is 2%, then that is too much.
Thank goodness we have people in charge now to dictate what those profits should be. Perhaps zero?
| 499 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:44:59pm |
re: #490 karmic_inquisitor
Yes - so when a new treatment comes available that is expensive, people will call their congressional representatives and demand that it be covered. Bam! The congress gives us all the option of that treatment.
Yup - that will lower costs.
It is a basic fact of economics that if a government gives unlimited resources for its people to consume that the people consume less of them.
/
It isn't about money for some people. I fully comprehend that this sort of thing is going to cost a lot. Many aren't willing to spend it, but many are.
| 500 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:45:17pm |
re: #481 webevintage
But if they had instead allowed Medicare to negotiate drug prices with the drug companies like the VA does then wouldn't that have been the more fiscally responsible move and would have helped those folks stuck in that ridiculous "doughnut hole"?
The "donut hole" is a funding decision and has nothing to do with the basics of how the program operates.
If the government gets to dictate prices on drugs, then the US would see far fewer new drugs. I am very much opposed to that outcome. Big Pharma charges what seems like obscene markups on drugs to pay for the countless failed attempts at developing new ones. There is a reason almost all new drug treatments are developed in the US and nowhere else.
| 501 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:45:18pm |
re: #486 mikhailtheplumber
Unfortunately, it will be too late for an apology, and besides... it wouldn't help.
When this horse runs out of the barn, there's no catching it and leading it back home.
| 502 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:45:43pm |
re: #489 bratwurst
Amen. This thread is a classic example of why LGF is so great. I would be surprised if there is ANYWHERE else online where people who hold such dramatically different opinions on this topic are having such a civil discussion tonight. Kudos to all lizards across the political spectrum.
Your comment was my first ever upding.
| 503 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:45:48pm |
re: #494 tradewind
Tobacco can be classified as a drug. Food, even junk, not so much. [...]
Why not? Sugar triggers insulin release which has a profound effect on the body's endocrine system.
| 504 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:46:05pm |
I guess soft drinks actually can take a tax hit.
Overall, the profit margin for health insurance companies was a modest 3.4 percent over the past year, according to data provided by Morningstar. That ranks 87th out of 215 industries and slightly above the median of 2.2 percent. By this measure, the most profitable industry over the past year has been beverages, with a 25.9 percent profit margin. Right behind that were healthcare real-estate trusts (firms that are basically the landlords for hospitals and healthcare facilities) and application-software (think Windows).
[Link: www.usnews.com...]
| 505 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:46:17pm |
re: #502 Existential_Donuts
Your comment was my first ever upding.
You broke your upding cherry. Congrats!
| 506 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:46:20pm |
re: #471 Existential_Donuts
I respectfully disagree with almost all of that, save the fact that money minded assholes are predictable. I would submit that money minded government assholes are also predictable. And accountable to me and you.
I must respectfully disagree. I've found government far less accountable than private corporations, partially because of terms of office. If a insurance executive screws up, his company can fire him in short order and has a incentive to do so in order not to lose money. A Senator who screws up may still have years left to serves and may get away with it because of the voter's short attention span.
| 507 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:46:50pm |
re: #498 solomonpanting
Thank goodness we have people in charge now to dictate what those profits should be. Perhaps zero?
Who would you suggest? My guess is that you would rather not do it at all, but that isn't going to happen.
| 508 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:47:27pm |
re: #452 Dark_Falcon
I'm far more comfortable with self-interested companies than altruistic government. Money minded assholes are at least predictable, and can be influenced. Government may well decided the their scheme is "the fair way" and jam it through regardless of costs. Corporations also don't have the use of the FBI and DEA to enforce their decisions.
DF-
They can't be "influenced". They can only be regulated. And you must have strong enforcement assets and funding behind the regulation. Otherwise it's Enrons and Madoffs all over the place.
A "free market" is chaos without regulation. Regulation is chaos with the big stick.
| 509 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:47:28pm |
re: #482 JustMyView
Low-income employees whose employers do not provide insurance will be eligible for subsidies, but they can use it to buy whichever insurance they want and can afford.
And the public option will likely be all they can afford, no? Why bother with the public option at all then? Why not allow interstate commerce for health insurance? Then there would be many additional choices.
| 510 |
JustMyView Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:47:46pm |
re: #460 Promethea
I think there is a lot of confusion about what Medicare is for and what the "public option" is. The "public option" means that me and my husband will have to pay for anybody who doesn't have insurance, for whatever reason.
You already do pay for people who don't have insurance. The major thrust of this legislation is to make it both possible and necessary for more people to buy insurance. The public option--whatever it turns out to be--does not mean free health care. It means you get your health insurance through the government rather than a private firm.
| 511 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:47:50pm |
re: #506 Dark_Falcon
Also, when was the last time a congressman or senator went to jail for fraud or not paying his/her taxes, etc...?
| 512 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:48:01pm |
re: #463 Sharmuta
Ppfffttt! Who was that, rodan?!
No it wasn't him. It was the early morning shift here..Somebody just freaked out..And you know me..I pressed the issue till their head blew up..
I do recall being called a criminal and the worst person in America...
It was the most fun EVER! I even told them while they were freaking out about sneaking them under the spare tire..just to push it..They completely melted down knowing that...Those cigars were the best tasting ever..
I wonder who that was..It was fun telling them about it..The freak out was so much fun
| 513 |
webevintage Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:48:18pm |
re: #496 borgcube
If just five people did that to the kid tonight, that would be more valuable to him than then tips he'd earn. By far.
Or maybe he just would not be able to pay for gas to go to work in the morning and wonder why people can be so mean and selfish.
(sorry I worked for tips for a really long time and you have no idea (or maybe you do) how horrible it is at the end of a bad night and realize that if you go pay that bill then you won't have any money for gas because even though you did your job well you still got stiffed.)
| 514 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:48:21pm |
Le·gal In·sur·rec·tion: First Take On House Passage
First impressions and reactions can be dangerous, but here goes:Passing the monstrous health care bill by just 5 votes in the House is a pyrrhic victory. Yes, it is a victory tonight for Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama, but at an enormous political price.
There will be hell to pay for Democrats who voted in favor of the Stupak amendment banning any federal funding of abortions or any use of the new health care provisions for abortion. Very, very sweeping. Hell to pay from liberal Democrats who are fuming at the internet mouth as I type.
There will be hell to pay for Democrats from red states and swing states, from Republicans, independents, and moderate Democrats. Names are being taken, and 2010 will be the most vicious political campaign any of us have seen. Ever.
There will be hell to pay for any of the moderate Democrat Senators who are sitting on the fence, if they vote in favor of the Senate version, or vote for cloture.
The health care legislation is so sweeping, reaches so far into our pocket books and lives, that there is no room for forgiveness this time.
Just a first reaction, subject to that caveat.
| 515 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:48:40pm |
And, just in case anyone wonders what this is REALLY all about...
Well, that, and control...
And good saxaphone...
| 516 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:49:00pm |
re: #506 Dark_Falcon
I must respectfully disagree. I've found government far less accountable than private corporations, partially because of terms of office. If a insurance executive screws up, his company can fire him in short order and has a incentive to do so in order not to lose money. A Senator who screws up may still have years left to serves and may get away with it because of the voter's short attention span.
Two words: Golden Parachute
If that is your idea of accountability, then I have a vastly different view. But, your point about politicians is well made. The mechanism for removing a politician is there, but reality dictates otherwise in most cases.
| 517 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:49:15pm |
Obama is thought of as so methodical and cautious... why can't he be as incremental about this health reform as he is in every other area where he refuses to rush in?
We could start by eliminating the barriers to cross-state insurance competition, and the pre-existing condition restrictions. We could give taxpayers, especially those below a threshold, a tax credit for medical expenses.
Then stop, and look around to see how things stand for a year or two. Why the headlong hurdle down the rabbit hole?
| 518 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:49:17pm |
re: #483 Thanos
Time for me to get some sleeps, play nice lizards,
Night, Thanos. Thanks for being a sane voice tonight, as always.
| 519 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:49:42pm |
re: #509 BryanS
Why not allow interstate commerce for health insurance? Then there would be many additional choices.
Because then all the companies would go to one state and buy up the state government and there would be even less regulation on them.
see: Delaware and credit card companies
| 520 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:50:02pm |
re: #496 borgcube
If just five people did that to the kid tonight, that would be more valuable to him than then tips he'd earn. By far.
that was my point...somewhat disjointed I guess...I used to rant around the house with my two kids, using the old 'there are only two kinds of people', then contrast those and them...winners and losers, leaders and followers, people with money and people who are broke...persuing the future or waiting for events...it worked for them and they are both successful now...somebody has to deliver pizzas, but if they do they ought to be pissed about it
| 521 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:50:08pm |
re: #516 Existential_Donuts
He's still fired, and still not able to continue to make bad decisions for the company. Nice try though.
| 522 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:50:25pm |
re: #492 recusancy
So you're for the companies telling the government what they should pay and having the govt being obligated to pay that amount? Government should not have leverage to negotiate prices down? Are you secretly Dick Cheney?
Very cute :)
No, I think the market should dictate the price. When the government comes in and "negotiates", it's more like it dictates. If there is a single payer, there really is no negotiation involved.
| 523 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:50:44pm |
re: #511 Dan G.
Randy Cunningham comes to mind... there are more.
| 524 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:50:56pm |
re: #514 NJDhockeyfan
Le·gal In·sur·rec·tion: First Take On House Passage
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
| 525 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:51:11pm |
re: #521 Dan G.
He's still fired, and still not able to continue to make bad decisions for the company. Nice try though.
yeah, and that huge paycheck for failing is pretty sweet too.
| 526 |
webevintage Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:51:16pm |
re: #500 BryanS
The "donut hole" is a funding decision and has nothing to do with the basics of how the program operates.
If the government gets to dictate prices on drugs, then the US would see far fewer new drugs. I am very much opposed to that outcome. Big Pharma charges what seems like obscene markups on drugs to pay for the countless failed attempts at developing new ones. There is a reason almost all new drug treatments are developed in the US and nowhere else.
But they already negotiate for drug cost within the federal employee health care system and the VA.
Why not medicare too...
| 527 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:51:33pm |
re: #486 mikhailtheplumber
You're treating the healthcare system as if it were a perfect competition scenario a-la-Adam Smith.
It is not.
Wait until the new system is in place. If prices hike, or coverage becomes awful, I will humbly apologize and admit the wisdom of an overly expensive system which leaves millions without coverage.
I was hoping for a reasoned and thought out plan instead.
Amazing. After you demand people post links on assertions.
I guess a promise of an apology if the country is bankrupted will have to suffice as a well supported argument.
As for the moral overtone of "the wisdom of an overly expensive system which leaves millions without coverage" - since when is it the obligation of a society to insure all of its members against life's perils? I was unaware that I was born morally obliged to provide others insurance.
As for access to treatments, I live in San Diego County and you can search our newspapers all you like but you won't find a single story of the indigent being refused care.
At issue here is not that people are refused care - they aren't. What they demand is the same treatment options as those who have bought expensive insurance policies.
So no - costs won't go down. they will go up because everyone will essentially have a right to the most expensive treatment options and if they don't get it they will be on the phone with their congressional representative. That is where this path leads.
But I guess the moralists will insist that is the just and righteous path.
| 528 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:51:47pm |
Internal Revenue Service
Health Insurance Enforcement Division
Ogden, UT 84201
//
| 529 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:51:49pm |
re: #517 tradewind
I had an idea about such behavior a while back, I called it "Fixated on a Solution". Where getting the solution that they had in place was more important than actually fixing the problem.
| 530 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:52:06pm |
re: #508 austin_blue
DF-
They can't be "influenced". They can only be regulated. And you must have strong enforcement assets and funding behind the regulation. Otherwise it's Enrons and Madoffs all over the place.
A "free market" is chaos without regulation. Regulation is chaos with the big stick.
They can be influenced through competition. And I'm not against regulation in proper amounts. My fear is that the "public option" is a Fabian strategy to gradually force private companies out the insurance business and consolidate government control over health care. If the public option were removed and Obamacare rendered a regulation bill, my opposition to it would greatly drop.
| 531 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:52:09pm |
re: #501 tradewind
Unfortunately, it will be too late for an apology, and besides... it wouldn't help.
When this horse runs out of the barn, there's no catching it and leading it back home.
Too late for an apology? I didn't vote for the bill. Hell, I'm not a citizen, so I don't vote.
I'm surprised by the certainty most of you, conservative friends, show regarding the unavoidable failure of health reform. I'm farther surprised by your unyielding faith in the unregulated private sector, as if the Wall Street collapse had not shown how dangerous that can be.
"The less state, the better" doesn't always work.
| 532 |
webevintage Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:53:44pm |
Man it is late.
Great board, thanks Charles.
Night guys...
| 533 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:53:47pm |
re: #526 webevintage
But they already negotiate for drug cost within the federal employee health care system and the VA.
Why not medicare too...
Careful...logic...
| 534 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:54:19pm |
re: #507 Existential_Donuts
Who would you suggest? My guess is that you would rather not do it at all, but that isn't going to happen.
Spoken like a true socialist current member of the majority party.
"I want to redistribute the wealth"
BHO 2008
| 535 |
MisterCookie Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:54:29pm |
One wonders - are the tea partiers actually interested in improving this country, or are they interested in emotional masturbation with their incessant invective?
| 536 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:54:50pm |
re: #525 Existential_Donuts
yeah, and that huge paycheck for failing is pretty sweet too.
The answer to that is not Big Government, but rather consumer action to ensure that Golden Parachutes are made less glided. The cost of failure does need to be raised for certain types of executive, but this bill does nothing to address that.
| 537 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:54:53pm |
re: #529 Dan G.
I guarantee that half of the people who hear about this bill will immediately think it means ... 'YIppee! No more doctor bills '!
Which is what the bill pushers are counting on.
| 538 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:55:07pm |
re: #519 recusancy
Because then all the companies would go to one state and buy up the state government and there would be even less regulation on them.
see: Delaware and credit card companies
That's what regulation is for. If the Dems took this approach, they would be the ones writing the regs. And they could put in rules to allow certain state rules as they saw fit.
| 539 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:55:16pm |
I'm just wondering if anyone knows someone who is uninsured that also has need to see a doctor for a growing health problem? I'm curious if anyone would tell a friend in this position "tough shit", or they should just go to the ER for their non-emergency issue.
| 540 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:55:17pm |
re: #525 Existential_Donuts
You are missing the point though. The "golden parachute" is essentially like a pre-nup, that the company agrees to pay the individual if things go awry (i.e. it is a contractual issue that the company agreed to pay before the problem arose) These contractual devices are a means of attracting talent (or someone talented enough to pass him/herself off as talented). This is significantly different than accountability, which was the topic at hand.
| 541 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:55:23pm |
re: #534 solomonpanting
Spoken like a true
socialistcurrent member of the majority party."I want to redistribute the wealth"
BHO 2008
FEMA bus over there Sol--->
| 542 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:56:16pm |
re: #537 tradewind
I guarantee that half of the people who hear about this bill will immediately think it means ... 'YIppee! No more doctor bills '!
Which is what the bill pushers are counting on.
I am sure there are some people who will react that way...but half? Really?
| 543 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:56:18pm |
re: #381 borgcube
True story: Pizza guy just came by. I told him the House just passed the healthcare bill and asked him if he was glad that he is now going to get free care. He said yes. It was "cool" in fact. I told him his tip was that I'm now paying for his healthcare and put exact change in his hand. He didn't have a clue.
Guess I have to order from another pizza place now.
Oh now that is just low! This monstrosity isn't a law yet, you know. The pizza guy puts his whole salary into his gas tank, and depends on tips to make the job worth his while. Is his name on the box? Mail him a fiver or something.
| 544 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:57:07pm |
re: #504 jaunte
I guess soft drinks actually can take a tax hit.
Percentage wise, there is nothing in a gas station or store that has a higher markup than soda.
| 545 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:57:15pm |
re: #526 webevintage
But they already negotiate for drug cost within the federal employee health care system and the VA.
Why not medicare too...
Because Medicare is single payer. Many drugs are "old people" drugs. As such, there is no market when there is only one buyer. Federal employee health care and VA may represent very large pools of coverage, but they are not the only customer.
| 546 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:57:31pm |
re: #534 solomonpanting
Spoken like a true
socialistcurrent member of the majority party."I want to redistribute the wealth"
BHO 2008
no need for the strike through. If your intent was to inform me that I am way more left than you, you could have just left it in. I have been called much worse by conservatives I was actually sharing physical space with. You don't need the quote the 'redistributing wealth' thing, either. I already know it.
If you have any input on health care, that would be great.
| 547 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:58:16pm |
re: #531 mikhailtheplumber
[...]
"The less state, the better" doesn't always work.
Its not an issue of magnitude (I haven't seen any anarchists/paulians here), but of scope. The government has certain appropriate functions and can, as far as I'm concerned, expand to whatever size it needs to to fulfill those functions. Medical care is not one of those functions, hence my immediate detest for this legislation and strong convictions against it.
| 548 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:58:32pm |
re: #539 Sharmuta
I'm just wondering if anyone knows someone who is uninsured that also has need to see a doctor for a growing health problem? I'm curious if anyone would tell a friend in this position "tough shit", or they should just go to the ER for their non-emergency issue.
I'm one of those uninsured with a growing health problem. No one has ever told me "though shit" but have suggested the ER or a local clinic. I've been through that and it was the usual "we don't know what's wrong with you." One visit ended up costing me $800. Now I just don't want to go back.
| 549 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:58:39pm |
re: #539 Sharmuta
I'm just wondering if anyone knows someone who is uninsured that also has need to see a doctor for a growing health problem? I'm curious if anyone would tell a friend in this position "tough shit", or they should just go to the ER for their non-emergency issue.
you can get quality care via the ER if that's what you have to do...the question is why does this person not have insurance?...if you live a life on the margin then you do what you have to do...get treated and pay 25 a month
| 550 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:58:44pm |
re: #537 tradewind
I guarantee that half of the people who hear about this bill will immediately think it means ... 'YIppee! No more doctor bills '!
Which is what the bill pushers are counting on.
| 551 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:59:10pm |
re: #539 Sharmuta
I'm just wondering if anyone knows someone who is uninsured that also has need to see a doctor for a growing health problem? I'm curious if anyone would tell a friend in this position "tough shit", or they should just go to the ER for their non-emergency issue.
Well said. Where do proponents of unpaid non-emergency visits to the ER at public hospitals think the funding comes for that anyway?
| 552 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:59:14pm |
re: #544 Sharmuta
Oddly enough, that information makes me thirsty.
| 553 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:59:18pm |
re: #531 mikhailtheplumber
Too late for an apology? I didn't vote for the bill. Hell, I'm not a citizen, so I don't vote.
I'm surprised by the certainty most of you, conservative friends, show regarding the unavoidable failure of health reform. I'm farther surprised by your unyielding faith in the unregulated private sector, as if the Wall Street collapse had not shown how dangerous that can be.
"The less state, the better" doesn't always work.
Most conservatives are not in favor of absolutely no regulation. Most conservatives would not have a problem with anti-trust laws, for instance. We just think only the minimum necessary to curb dangerous excesses is all there should be.
| 554 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:59:32pm |
re: #539 Sharmuta
I have a dental/medical issue, that the private pay dentist can't figure out. I am avoiding going to the medical Dr. for the cost, even with insurance.
| 555 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:59:36pm |
re: #543 The Sanity Inspector
Oh now that is just low! This monstrosity isn't a law yet, you know. The pizza guy puts his whole salary into his gas tank, and depends on tips to make the job worth his while. Is his name on the box? Mail him a fiver or something.
never mind...I sent him to Italy for some R and R...he's cool
| 556 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:59:51pm |
re: #531 mikhailtheplumber
I don't believe that I wrote ' the less state, the better', or even words to that effect. There are certain things that only the state is well equipped to handle, which is why we pay taxes. This particular area is not one that lends itself to that custody, IMO.
My post was in response to your assertion that you would , quote, ' humbly apologize' if the thing went south.
| 557 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:59:54pm |
re: #540 Dan G.
You are missing the point though. The "golden parachute" is essentially like a pre-nup, that the company agrees to pay the individual if things go awry (i.e. it is a contractual issue that the company agreed to pay before the problem arose) These contractual devices are a means of attracting talent (or someone talented enough to pass him/herself off as talented). This is significantly different than accountability, which was the topic at hand.
I'm not missing the point. The point is these guys contracts saying that no matter what happens, they will not be accountable. Then they acted like they had no rules (they didn't) then walked away with our money.
That is pretty much my point. If your point is that the mere existence of golden parachutes makes them acceptable, I don't get it.
| 558 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:59:59pm |
That's so typical though isn't it? Even with the insured:
"We don't know what's wrong with you."
| 559 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:00:08pm |
re: #530 Dark_Falcon
They can be influenced through competition. And I'm not against regulation in proper amounts. My fear is that the "public option" is a Fabian strategy to gradually force private companies out the insurance business and consolidate government control over health care. If the public option were removed and Obamacare rendered a regulation bill, my opposition to it would greatly drop.
No they can't. Not if they cheat. That's what Enron did. They got away with it for ears and cost people billions, while enriching a select few.
As for the second bit, without any public option, it's just the status quo. That's not working.
| 560 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:00:37pm |
re: #551 bratwurst
I've used that earlier in my adult life, and the payment came from by pocket (cash).
| 561 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:00:42pm |
re: #558 Gus 802
That's so typical though isn't it? Even with the insured:
"We don't know what's wrong with you."
I get that a lot.
| 562 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:00:48pm |
re: #542 bratwurst
Okay, hyperbole check noted and agreed. Substitute ' Lots of them'.
| 563 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:00:52pm |
re: #551 bratwurst
Well said. Where do proponents of unpaid non-emergency visits to the ER at public hospitals think the funding comes for that anyway?
what are the patients thinking in terms of their care?
| 564 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:01:01pm |
re: #552 jaunte
Oddly enough, that information makes me thirsty.
Same here...been thirsty since you went and mentioned non-HFCS soft drinks earlier!
| 565 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:01:24pm |
re: #546 Existential_Donuts
If you have any input on health care, that would be great.
>Allow health insurance companies to compete nation wide.
>Institute tort reform which would lead to
>Lower insurance premiums for doctors
>Allow "catastrophic only" policies
to name a few
| 566 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:02:12pm |
re: #549 albusteve
you can get quality care via the ER if that's what you have to do...the question is why does this person not have insurance?...if you live a life on the margin then you do what you have to do...get treated and pay 25 a month
Trouble is, you can't go to the ER for a checkup. Some people who, for whatever reason (and there are indeed valid ones) can not afford insurance have pain, or things they need looked at and diagnosed which can only be done by a checkup they can't afford.
| 567 |
JustMyView Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:02:24pm |
re: #509 BryanS
And the public option will likely be all they can afford, no? Why bother with the public option at all then? Why not allow interstate commerce for health insurance? Then there would be many additional choices.
Depends on the individual's income, what subsidies they are eligible for, and what the rates are. I don't object to interstate commerce. It's just very difficult to get there given the current variation in regulations. Over time, we may get there.
G'night.
| 568 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:02:44pm |
re: #548 Gus 802
Gus, I offer to you, my PROVEN Medical fix!
{{GUS}} Yes, HUGS work wonders!
| 569 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:02:44pm |
re: #561 jaunte
I get that a lot.
Yeah, and it's not like "House" where they try everything as if cost was no object. It's almost like hearing a noise in the car and the mechanic says "wait for it to break." Ironically, that's almost what happens with medical care. As the symptoms build up and finally something breaks then they realize what's wrong.
| 570 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:02:45pm |
Well, the GOP screwed the pooch tonight. They should have voted AGAINST the "no abortion funding" amendment. Should have voted to keep in the possible abortion money. Than they would have had 69 Blue Dogs voting against the complete bill. All they needed was 2-3 more votes.
Typical GOP lack of strategy. Win the battle, loose the war.
| 571 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:03:07pm |
re: #332 Rightwingconspirator
What happens when so many people quit smoking the lower cig tax revenues hurt the budget? The state then has a financial interest in you smoking.
They'll make it up in the extra 20 years of income tax and sales tax from people who stay alive and healthy and working?
| 572 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:03:08pm |
re: #565 solomonpanting
>Allow health insurance companies to compete nation wide.
>Institute tort reform which would lead to
>Lower insurance premiums for doctors
>Allow "catastrophic only" policiesto name a few
Well, that sounds great. But when the time for that discussion was happening, people were shouted down at town halls. Those are great ideas, but with a opposition party that does not participate, what happens to those ideas? Just sayin...
| 573 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:03:11pm |
re: #527 karmic_inquisitor
If you were waiting for a well-reasoned, lengthy paragraph, I'm sorry to have disappointed you. Of course, a blog comment is the place where I should devote my hours of work doing research on the reasons behind the incredibly high costs of healthcare in this country.
Sorry, but I'm still behind on my readings real work, which actually pays me to do those, so healthcare must wait for other souls with more free time.
You first asked me if I believed the bill would cut down the costs of healthcare. I said I thought the public option, as far as I knew, would force the insurance companies to lower their prices.
Then you asked me for the specifics on how. I'm not an expert. And while there are plenty of web posts explaining the rationality behind it, I'm pretty sure you know the arguments for the bill, and have already rejected them. Am I wrong?
You're asking me for why the system would not fail. I really have no energy for this discussion at this hour, we can have it later. But still, I think you're inverting the weight of the proof. I'm happy to wait and see. You think it's bound to fail.
Don't tell me why tonight, though. I'm off to bed.
Goodnight, lizards. Hope the conversations keeps as civilized as this. It's a privilege to share thoughts with y'all.
| 574 |
The Sanity Inspector Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:03:27pm |
Okay, signing off for tonight. Gotta get up & teach Sunday school & take the knee-knockers to their soccer games. With any luck, I'll wake up tomorrow, and this will have all been a dream.
/But trust you lot to burst my bubble when I log in next. Bastidges...
| 575 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:03:37pm |
re: #542 bratwurst
I am sure there are some people who will react that way...but half? Really?
Hyperbole reigns...
| 576 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:03:47pm |
re: #568 Floral Giraffe
Gus, I offer to you, my PROVEN Medical fix!
{{GUS}} Yes, HUGS work wonders!
Thank you ((Floral Giraffe))
| 577 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:04:05pm |
Hey - you want an example of a complete screw up where the government gives away a vital resource for almost free? Do you want to see the distortions it produces and the problems it lets accumulated for future generations?
Great!
Look at the Metropolitan Water District of southern California.
A huge infrastructure of aqueducts and storage facilities is built and brings an abundance of water to parched Southern California.
Great!
What do people do with this water? Why, they plant big, lush gardens and elaborate landscaping. Golf Courses and swimming pools. Big lush lawns under the California skies.
So more people move to this lush and idyllic place.
And more houses are built and more plants are planted.
lo and behold they are "out" of water. Oh dear - what can they do?
Do they remove their golf courses? Swimming Pools? Houses? Do they move away?
No - they get rationing notices and bitch about it. And they bitch about water rates going up. And they bitch about how more dams aren't built.
They just bitch.
In that little story you have the future of American Health Care. None will be contented. Just as they aren't now. But we will open the floodgates for a little while (until reality imposes itself) until we realize that doctors and nurses and administrators and researchers expect to be paid for their services and don't give discounts because the payer is "the public option".
Check the combines profits of all health insurance companies - a drop in the bucket compared to what the whole system takes in.
| 578 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:04:15pm |
re: #569 Gus 802
Yeah, and it's not like "House" where they try everything as if cost was no object. It's almost like hearing a noise in the car and the mechanic says "wait for it to break." Ironically, that's almost what happens with medical care. As the symptoms build up and finally something breaks then they realize what's wrong.
Unfortunately we are not intelligently designed.
| 579 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:04:22pm |
re: #557 Existential_Donuts
Jeff Skilling is in jail, how's that for accountability? As for the cash they receive, it is private cash, what's your beef, not your money?
BTW, for the record, I think it is foolish for companies to use these devices as they are disconnected from performance and incentivize "cashing in" by getting fired.
| 580 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:04:32pm |
re: #548 Gus 802
I'm sorry to hear that Gus. I don't know what else to say except I'll say a prayer for you that you'll be okay until a doctor can actually help you.
| 581 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:04:45pm |
re: #549 albusteve
It's NOT $25 a month.
It's F'ING $300.
And the ER is STILL a first option.
( I know you have health issues, so I'm only slightly screaming at you...)
| 582 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:05:19pm |
re: #567 JustMyView
Depends on the individual's income, what subsidies they are eligible for, and what the rates are. I don't object to interstate commerce. It's just very difficult to get there given the current variation in regulations. Over time, we may get there.
G'night.
I wish the Dems would have considered allowing more private competition IN ADDITION to their public option boondoggle. Night.
| 583 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:05:35pm |
re: #554 Floral Giraffe
I have a dental/medical issue, that the private pay dentist can't figure out. I am avoiding going to the medical Dr. for the cost, even with insurance.
I've got the same issue. MY ankles often hurt, but even with insurance I can't pay for a CT scan on them. Nothing to do but accept the pain.
| 584 |
mikhailtheplumber Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:05:40pm |
re: #547 Dan G.
Its not an issue of magnitude (I haven't seen any anarchists/paulians here), but of scope. The government has certain appropriate functions and can, as far as I'm concerned, expand to whatever size it needs to to fulfill those functions. Medical care is not one of those functions, hence my immediate detest for this legislation and strong convictions against it.
You're stating opinion as fact. "Medical care is not one of those functions" according to the American conservative point of view. I don't think your dislike is a natural reaction to an abomination, but an ideological reaction to what you consider to be improper for the state to get into.
But that can be discussed.
Tomorrow, though. Goodnight!
| 585 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:05:59pm |
re: #577 karmic_inquisitor
Hey - you want an example of a complete screw up where the government gives away a vital resource for almost free? Do you want to see the distortions it produces and the problems it lets accumulated for future generations?
Great!
Look at the Metropolitan Water District of southern California.
A huge infrastructure of aqueducts and storage facilities is built and brings an abundance of water to parched Southern California.
Great!
What do people do with this water? Why, they plant big, lush gardens and elaborate landscaping. Golf Courses and swimming pools. Big lush lawns under the California skies.
So more people move to this lush and idyllic place.
And more houses are built and more plants are planted.
lo and behold they are "out" of water. Oh dear - what can they do?
Do they remove their golf courses? Swimming Pools? Houses? Do they move away?
No - they get rationing notices and bitch about it. And they bitch about water rates going up. And they bitch about how more dams aren't built.
They just bitch.
In that little story you have the future of American Health Care. None will be contented. Just as they aren't now. But we will open the floodgates for a little while (until reality imposes itself) until we realize that doctors and nurses and administrators and researchers expect to be paid for their services and don't give discounts because the payer is "the public option".
Check the combines profits of all health insurance companies - a drop in the bucket compared to what the whole system takes in.
So you're saying healthcare is a luxury that some people just need to learn to live (or die) without?
| 586 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:06:13pm |
re: #563 albusteve
what are the patients thinking in terms of their care?
That is a fair question. I have done some work for a medical charity. You definitely have some indigent types out there who feel like they are entitled to a full workup at the Mayo Clinic. But there are also working people out there who, for various reasons (some within their control, some not) who are a serious illness away from losing their home. Many of these folks know they are playing with fire and are generally grateful for whatever they can get.
| 588 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:06:21pm |
re: #572 Existential_Donuts
Well, that sounds great. But when the time for that discussion was happening, people were shouted down at town halls. Those are great ideas, but with a opposition party that does not participate, what happens to those ideas? Just sayin...
What do think the chances of those being passed by Congress? Be honest.
I can't remember who, but one Dem politician flatly stated that tackling tort reform is out of the question.
| 589 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:07:20pm |
re: #571 sagehen
They'll make it up in the extra 20 years of income tax and sales tax from people who stay alive and healthy and working?
How are we going to afford another 20 years of social security and medicare? I kinda thought it was good for the public coffers that all the smokers would die before 20 years of medicare and social security spending.
| 590 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:07:27pm |
re: #584 mikhailtheplumber
Goodnight, but for the record, I'm not a conservative.
| 591 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:07:49pm |
re: #580 Sharmuta
I'm sorry to hear that Gus. I don't know what else to say except I'll say a prayer for you that you'll be okay until a doctor can actually help you.
Thanks Sharm'. I was going to get health insurance early last year when my business was buzzing. Problem is that in my line of work I don't have a steady income. My mistake and I should have either joined the Air Force like I was planning on or getting a degree in either architecture or aerospace engineering. Life is all about planning I guess.
| 592 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:07:52pm |
re: #565 solomonpanting
Mississippi used to be the jackpot of medical malpractice case states... lawyers would file in MS if at all possible because they could hit the motherlode of all jury awards. Tort reform was instituted ( under a Republican governor, natch) and the change has been remarkable in the benefits to the citizens... more doctors are practicing, premiums are lower, and health care costs have dropped from previous highs... large corporations are relocating. It has a major impact on health care costs.
The Democrats are still drinking John Edwards Koolaid, though, and try to minimize the potential benefits.
| 593 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:07:55pm |
re: #559 austin_blue
No they can't. Not if they cheat. That's what Enron did. They got away with it for ears and cost people billions, while enriching a select few.
As for the second bit, without any public option, it's just the status quo. That's not working.
But Enron did get caught in the end. There will always be cheaters and laws and regulations will adapt to deal with them. It's a offense/defense spiral, just like getting a bomber through hostile air defenses.
| 594 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:08:06pm |
re: #579 Dan G.
Jeff Skilling is in jail, how's that for accountability? As for the cash they receive, it is private cash, what's your beef, not your money?
BTW, for the record, I think it is foolish for companies to use these devices as they are disconnected from performance and incentivize "cashing in" by getting fired.
You are hanging your argument on J. Skilling? The people that just spent our $800b in tax money for their actions got off scott free. Not only that, they are laughing at us while they do it.
| 596 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:08:41pm |
re: #587 Sharmuta
How's he coming along on reverse engineering us so that Drs. can have the blueprints? ;)
/
| 597 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:08:51pm |
re: #588 solomonpanting
What do think the chances of those being passed by Congress? Be honest.
I can't remember who, but one Dem politician flatly stated that tackling tort reform is out of the question.
It will get through. Mark my words.
| 598 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:09:03pm |
re: #547 Dan G.
Its not an issue of magnitude (I haven't seen any anarchists/paulians here), but of scope. The government has certain appropriate functions and can, as far as I'm concerned, expand to whatever size it needs to to fulfill those functions. Medical care is not one of those functions, hence my immediate detest for this legislation and strong convictions against it.
It's a good thing the government is not getting into medical care. This bill is about medical insurance. There's a huge difference.
| 599 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:09:04pm |
you know, if you just wake up in the middle of your waitress life and discover you need health care, you have not done what you could have done to prevent that problem...life is not a crap shoot...you need to get your shit together and work out a way to survive in this world...it starts early and it never ends...all the potential is there (or was)...jobs, wealth, and choices...it's a matter of personal responsibility...as cold as it sounds, that the reality of it...too much media, too many distractions, selfishness and largess, procrastination...there is a shitload of opportunity, take some of it, work, make money
| 600 |
Elaine Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:09:09pm |
Is there a chance that this bill would pass in the Senate?
| 602 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:09:49pm |
re: #566 Bloodnok
Trouble is, you can't go to the ER for a checkup. Some people who, for whatever reason (and there are indeed valid ones) can not afford insurance have pain, or things they need looked at and diagnosed which can only be done by a checkup they can't afford.
yeah right...oh well
| 603 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:09:52pm |
re: #597 Existential_Donuts
It will get through. Mark my words.
Something probably will, but not what passed tonight.
| 604 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:10:14pm |
re: #598 recusancy
As thought they're not connected. Are you really going to try and assert that medical insurance doesn't cover medical care?
| 605 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:10:24pm |
re: #575 austin_blue
Too late. The hyperbole's been adjusted upthread .///
| 606 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:10:34pm |
re: #601 Dan G.
Who? Congress?
Bush, Obama, Congress, the Fed,Wall St, you name it. The whole fucking thing is disgusting.
| 607 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:10:42pm |
re: #585 recusancy
So you're saying healthcare is a luxury that some people just need to learn to live (or die) without?
Yes. Like water. A luxury. That is what I said. And I said people should die without it. i said that too.
/
Did you even bother to read what i wrote?
Again - how many articles can you dig up of a person in California dying because he/she was refused care for not having money? Which hospital refused to admit a patient for not having money. Which ambulance was turned away?
Where are these stories? Hist - they don't exist. Because the current system provides the uninsured and indigent vital care. So the construct "that some people just need to learn to live (or die) without" is utterly absurd and does not apply to the current system.
| 608 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:10:48pm |
re: #594 Existential_Donuts
Not only that, they're about to make another run at us!
| 609 |
Ben G. Hazi Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:12:03pm |
When you hear of (most) anything coming out of Washington, just remember these words:
"We're from the government and we're here to help."
/not seeing a whole lot of upside with the current health care imbroglio..
| 610 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:12:10pm |
re: #581 Floral Giraffe
It's NOT $25 a month.
It's F'ING $300.
And the ER is STILL a first option.( I know you have health issues, so I'm only slightly screaming at you...)
you pay a little...keep them off your back...if you can't afford more than that so be it...if you are paying on a 40$ car and 800$ rent, then you have a priority problem, yes?
| 612 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:12:19pm |
| 613 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:12:32pm |
re: #600 Elaine
Hopefully it's in the ' and monkeys might fly out of my butt' category.
NJ and VA governor races might have helped a few blue dogs think things over.
| 614 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:12:53pm |
re: #608 tradewind
Not only that, they're about to make another run at us!
That's a good line! You took his words and turned them on him beautifully.
| 615 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:13:11pm |
re: #589 BryanS
How are we going to afford another 20 years of social security and medicare? I kinda thought it was good for the public coffers that all the smokers would die before 20 years of medicare and social security spending.
we aren't...just wait
| 616 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:13:16pm |
re: #607 karmic_inquisitor
Just ask it nicely to put the stawman away, its looking rather ragged.
| 617 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:13:36pm |
re: #604 Dan G.
As thought they're not connected. Are you really going to try and assert that medical insurance doesn't cover medical care?
It does. All medical insurance does is pool money together so you're not shit out of luck if something happens to you. It's not a complicated thing. Of course it COVERS medical care. That doesn't mean it IS medical care.
The only difference between a public option plan and a private plan is that the private plan skims some off the top for their profit.
| 618 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:14:47pm |
re: #513 webevintage
Oh wah wah wah. You can thank the same folks that brought you the great minimum wage laws that forced you to rely upon tips. Funny how that works isn't it? Just think, every single restaurant and bar in town pays the minimum wage for the most part. Suckers.
Anyway, maybe, just maybe, the pizza dude would come to realize what "free healthcare" really is and thank those who now are paying a lot more than just a lousy little tip on his behalf. Wishful thinking on my part. He'll probably now start looking at pizza delivery as a long term career choice and demand that he gets paid enough to support his family of four. And a subsidized house. And childcare. And car. And food. And and and...
| 619 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:15:06pm |
re: #611 Dan G.
OK...
One of the things that keeps the corporations grip on us so tight is the wedge they have made between the two ideologies. We are so pissed about social issues, we cannot see that we are all being screwed by the same wang. We are all Americans, and whether we are a Tea Partier or a MoveOn member, we still suck the teet of our corporate masters. And that's just how they like it.
| 620 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:15:09pm |
re: #615 albusteve
we aren't...just wait
Heh...we'll need to repeal the tobacco taxes and encourage smoking--so that more people kick the bucket before they draw on social security and medicare.
| 621 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:15:10pm |
| 622 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:15:11pm |
re: #617 recusancy
A lot less is skimmed in profit than is lost due to bureaucratic waste.
| 623 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:16:22pm |
re: #614 Dark_Falcon
That's a good line! You took his words and turned them on him beautifully.
tradewind is right, I don't see where the turn around is.
| 624 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:16:26pm |
re: #614 Dark_Falcon
If only it were not true. You know the old saying about insanity being repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different result?
| 625 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:16:31pm |
re: #618 borgcube
Oh wah wah wah. You can thank the same folks that brought you the great minimum wage laws that forced you to rely upon tips. Funny how that works isn't it? Just think, every single restaurant and bar in town pays the minimum wage for the most part. Suckers.
Anyway, maybe, just maybe, the pizza dude would come to realize what "free healthcare" really is and thank those who now are paying a lot more than just a lousy little tip on his behalf. Wishful thinking on my part. He'll probably now start looking at pizza delivery as a long term career choice and demand that he gets paid enough to support his family of four. And a subsidized house. And childcare. And car. And food. And and and...
I gotta agree with all that...well said
| 626 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:16:33pm |
re: #607 karmic_inquisitor
Yes. Like water. A luxury. That is what I said. And I said people should die without it. i said that too.
/
Did you even bother to read what i wrote?
Again - how many articles can you dig up of a person in California dying because he/she was refused care for not having money? Which hospital refused to admit a patient for not having money. Which ambulance was turned away?
Where are these stories? Hist - they don't exist. Because the current system provides the uninsured and indigent vital care. So the construct "that some people just need to learn to live (or die) without" is utterly absurd and does not apply to the current system.
You equated it with living in paradise even though it was unsustainable.
So the uninsured and indigent are subsidized. Don't you think it would be cheaper on everyone if they were covered with something that could provide them preventative care so they didn't end of in the most expensive of places?
| 627 |
freetoken Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:16:43pm |
re: #591 Gus 802
Life is all about planning I guess.
If only it were that simple...
IME plans go awry, no matter how well thought out at the time of their creation.
| 628 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:16:46pm |
re: #617 recusancy
It does. All medical insurance does is pool money together so you're not shit out of luck if something happens to you. It's not a complicated thing. Of course it COVERS medical care. That doesn't mean it IS medical care.
The only difference between a public option plan and a private plan is that the private plan skims some off the top for their profit.
And, the private plan has to compete for business, and has incentives to contain costs. If we lead to a single payer, the market controls will go away--only thing left is government mandated price controls and rationing.
| 629 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:17:25pm |
re: #622 Dan G.
A lot less is skimmed in profit than is lost due to bureaucratic waste.
You have a statistic for that. Or is that just what you believe to be true?
| 630 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:17:34pm |
Should this become law there is no turning back the dial.
Of course it will be rife with problems on a massive scale. Those writing it know that, the idea is to make a major structural change that insures a role for the government. Once created, it will be as durable as medicare and the VA.
Each new dilemma will create new opportunities to propose legislation to “reform” or “fix” the system. The reforms will always be incremental and sound reasonable at the time. The fix will always involve more government, more regulation, more bureaucracy and more taxation and national debt.
| 631 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:18:11pm |
re: #621 solomonpanting
And piss off their biggest donors?
yep. The fact that it got this far is proof that the game is different. Bricks are being shat in many lobbyist commodes.
| 632 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:18:19pm |
re: #617 recusancy
Having a hand in medical insurance, is having a hand in medical care (which the government already does via medicaid/medicare). I do not believe that it should play this role. So, do you think that medicaid/medicare isn't the government having role in medical care? You seem to assert that it doesn't.
| 633 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:18:22pm |
re: #627 freetoken
If only it were that simple...
IME plans go awry, no matter how well thought out at the time of their creation.
True. Sometimes when you don't plan life is also full of little surprises. I experienced one this week.
| 634 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:18:41pm |
re: #556 tradewind
I don't believe that I wrote ' the less state, the better', or even words to that effect. There are certain things that only the state is well equipped to handle, which is why we pay taxes. This particular area is not one that lends itself to that custody, IMO.
My post was in response to your assertion that you would , quote, ' humbly apologize' if the thing went south.
And yet, the rest of the western world does quite well with it. Curious, isn't it?
| 635 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:18:45pm |
re: #624 tradewind
If only it were not true. You know the old saying about insanity being repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different result?
Yep by that standard, both the moonbats and wingnuts are certifiably nuts. Me too, at times. I've got to break out of some bad habits, but I made a good start on that tonight.
| 636 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:18:48pm |
re: #618 borgcube
Sounds like the pizza guy owes YOU a tip for teaching him such a valuable lesson tonight.
/
| 637 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:19:02pm |
re: #600 Elaine
What I wonder is, is there a chance this bill will be rammed through in a reconciliation committee?
It's not supposed to be used for this purpose, but Reid has already threatened.
| 639 |
Athens Runaway Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:19:30pm |
re: #570 Walter L. Newton
Well, the GOP screwed the pooch tonight. They should have voted AGAINST the "no abortion funding" amendment. Should have voted to keep in the possible abortion money. Than they would have had 69 Blue Dogs voting against the complete bill. All they needed was 2-3 more votes.
Typical GOP lack of strategy. Win the battle, loose the war.
In theory, yes.
But Blue Dogs need campaign money and support from the DNCC like everyone else. The Blue Dogs-as-conservatives meme needs to go away, it's misleading.
They're conservative when they're in their conservative districts. When they're in liberal DC, they get the orders from their mistress, Pelosi, and fall into line.
Blue Dog Democrats: Bark a few times, and then roll over.
| 640 |
freetoken Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:19:30pm |
re: #600 Elaine
Is there a chance that this bill would pass in the Senate?
Probably not in the current form. I'm expecting the abortion debate to rear its head in the Senate. Also, Senators tend to be more of the good ol' boy club... and consensus is sought before bringing something to the floor.
| 641 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:19:41pm |
re: #629 recusancy
Compare and contrast: FedEx vs. USPS or UPS vs. USPS.
| 642 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:19:54pm |
BTW - I see that the heavy discounts for group coverage are still allowed under this bill. So small groups will still be screwed and still bear a disproportionate cost of insurance. As it was it is and it shall be.
If you want true health insurance reform then ban group policies. Then everyone would see insurance companies competing for his/her business.
Won't happen - large employers with large Political Action Committees won't surrender that cost advantage easily. But that is just economics and is irrelevant to the "morality" of the health care debate.
| 643 |
Promethea Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:20:31pm |
For those who think we all should have government- supported health care, then I would ask you why we shouldn't have government-supported food and rent and clothing?
When did the government become our mommy and daddy? I must have missed the day when that happened.
| 644 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:20:45pm |
re: #641 Dan G.
Compare and contrast: FedEx vs. USPS or UPS vs. USPS.
The unionized private one is the best (UPS). What does that have to do with anything?
| 646 |
freetoken Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:21:21pm |
| 647 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:21:29pm |
| 648 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:21:59pm |
re: #630 Bagua
We did this on a small scale in my state, called it TNCare.
Massive fraud.
Massive corruption.
Massive amount of doctors disgusted with it and refusing to cooperate, or leaving their practices here to relocate.
| 649 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:22:03pm |
re: #639 Athens Runaway
In theory, yes.
But Blue Dogs need campaign money and support from the DNCC like everyone else. The Blue Dogs-as-conservatives meme needs to go away, it's misleading.
They're conservative when they're in their conservative districts. When they're in liberal DC, they get the orders from their mistress, Pelosi, and fall into line.
Blue Dog Democrats: Bark a few times, and then roll over.
Yeah, but actually, more Democrats voted against the bill then then Republicans that voted for it -- which was all of one. That would be 39 Democrats.
Not commenting on the bill. I really think it would have been a better bill if everyone met halfway.
| 650 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:22:28pm |
re: #643 Promethea
For those who think we all should have government- supported health care, then I would ask you why we shouldn't have government-supported food and rent and clothing?
When did the government become our mommy and daddy? I must have missed the day when that happened.
I've wondered where the left's argument on the welfare state ends. We do have government housing, by the way. It's called Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--and now thanx to the bailouts the government owns them, and the mortgages on your home.
| 651 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:22:47pm |
re: #644 recusancy
The USPS doesn't have a profit, but doesn't result in savings; it in fact constantly requires additional taxpayer funded subsidies. Whereas FedEx/UPS neither require subsidies nor charge that much more for service (ahem... the services that they're not prevented by law from providing).
| 652 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:22:48pm |
re: #648 tradewind
We did this on a small scale in my state, called it TNCare.
Massive fraud.
Massive corruption.
Massive amount of doctors disgusted with it and refusing to cooperate, or leaving their practices here to relocate.
But we are going to do it right this time!
//
| 653 |
freetoken Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:23:27pm |
re: #643 Promethea
For those who think we all should have government- supported health care, then I would ask you why we shouldn't have government-supported food and rent and clothing?
We do.
As juante noted earlier, there is a massive agricultural policy in this nation that influences how and what food is produced.
We use the tax code to directly influence how people live (and thus what is built), e.g., deductions for mortgage interest.
| 654 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:23:32pm |
re: #531 mikhailtheplumber
I'd agree if that was the case. We already have a healthcare system which is anything but unregulated. The problem is that the government has already stuck its nose into the whole thing so badly at every turn and caused the skyrocketing costs and worse.
You can't seriously think that the problem with healthcare is that it has not been regulated enough, can you? Please say no.
| 655 |
TheQuis Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:23:35pm |
re: #121 Rightwingconspirator
All this angst and big picture stuff!
I'm watching for a personal reason too. The reality on the ground in this game will matter under my roof. My wife is a juvenile rheumatoid arthritis patient. A childhood illness gets you a lifetime of pre existing condition status. Unemployed. She needs coverage and does not trust this bill to get it done, at all. Not sure, time will provide the reality. I'll be reporting back as we see it. Oh first report- No H1N1 vaccine for her yet.Not a great omen there...
Are you advocating for a stronger bill? Single Payer?
| 656 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:23:46pm |
re: #643 Promethea
For those who think we all should have government- supported health care, then I would ask you why we shouldn't have government-supported food and rent and clothing?
When did the government become our mommy and daddy? I must have missed the day when that happened.
Food stamps, low-income subsidized housing. I can't think of a clothing reference.
| 657 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:23:49pm |
re: #644 recusancy
Really??
I absolutely, positively disagree, comparing and contrasting the service.
If you want it to get there, the Brown Shirts are not the way to go.
| 658 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:23:50pm |
re: #647 recusancy
Profits.
Plus do you know anyone who would choose FedEx over UPS?? I don't.re: #643 Promethea
For those who think we all should have government- supported health care, then I would ask you why we shouldn't have government-supported food and rent and clothing?
When did the government become our mommy and daddy? I must have missed the day when that happened.
Ummm... There is government housing and agriculture is one of the most subsidized industries. I actually don't like the agri subsidies. Farmers don't need the help they used to.
| 659 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:24:08pm |
I'm on Disability and Medi-care, I guess I'm going to get slammed on Obama care like it or not.
| 660 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:24:17pm |
re: #641 Dan G.
Compare and contrast: FedEx vs. USPS or UPS vs. USPS.
USPS has to deliver everywhere, the others can dictate where they deliver. If you are rural, do you want to have to pay for mail service like you might for garbage service?
Considering how many people there are and the number of pieces of mail delivered, I think the mail service is damn impressive. A letter from across the country in a couple of days? Not bad for 44 cents.
| 661 |
Athens Runaway Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:24:18pm |
re: #649 Gus 802
Yeah, but actually, more Democrats voted against the bill then then Republicans that voted for it -- which was all of one. That would be 39 Democrats.
Not commenting on the bill. I really think it would have been a better bill if everyone met halfway.
And how many of those voted for it because it went too far in their opinion, and how many voted for it because it didn't go far enough in their opinion?
A "no" vote doesn't tell the whole story.
| 662 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:24:19pm |
re: #651 Dan G.
The USPS doesn't have a profit, but doesn't result in savings; it in fact constantly requires additional taxpayer funded subsidies. Whereas FedEx/UPS neither require subsidies nor charge that much more for service (ahem... the services that they're not prevented by law from providing).
I said UPS not USPS. Pay attention.
| 663 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:24:31pm |
re: #653 freetoken
We do.
As juante noted earlier, there is a massive agricultural policy in this nation that influences how and what food is produced.
We use the tax code to directly influence how people live (and thus what is built), e.g., deductions for mortgage interest.
Ahh, yes. I failed to note the Ag policies--some of which go to paying farmers not to plant crops to manage prices.
| 664 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:24:59pm |
re: #659 sngnsgt
I'm on Disability and Medi-care, I guess I'm going to get slammed on Obama care like it or not.
Hu? You won't lose a thing. What are you talking about?
| 665 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:25:04pm |
re: #626 recusancy
You equated it with living in paradise even though it was unsustainable.
So the uninsured and indigent are subsidized. Don't you think it would be cheaper on everyone if they were covered with something that could provide them preventative care so they didn't end of in the most expensive of places?
No. It wouldn't. They will have no incentive to stay healthy. They do now even though you find the basis for that motivation to be unsustainable morally.
Look - you are giving everyone unlimited access to medical services. And somehow people thing that congress will somehow curb excessive consumption of those services (you know - the function that the evil claim denyers do at insurance companies - even though they get sued when they get it wrong).
You can't give people unlimited access to a resource and expect them to not make excessive use of it.
It won't be cheaper. It can't be cheaper.
| 666 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:25:06pm |
re: #643 Promethea
And, I need a nice place to live.
1800 square feet will do for me.
But, I can't afford any rent.
Can you add that to my tab?
Thanks, ever so...
| 667 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:25:26pm |
re: #652 NJDhockeyfan
The list of providers that submit fake claims and their amounts would curl your hair.
On a national level... well, Hello California, we're comin' to join ya.
| 668 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:25:42pm |
oooh.
insight of the night.
profits = evil.
| 669 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:25:57pm |
re: #622 Dan G.
A lot less is skimmed in profit than is lost due to bureaucratic waste.
Ummm... not true. Medicare and Medicaid is run with overheads of around 3-5%.
| 670 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:26:01pm |
re: #657 tradewind
Really??
I absolutely, positively disagree, comparing and contrasting the service.
If you want it to get there, the Brown Shirts are not the way to go.
Well.. That's your opinion. The market says otherwise. And the market's always right. Right?
| 671 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:26:06pm |
re: #646 freetoken
Hope your situation doesn't overwhelm you.
It does sometimes. Now it comes in waves since it's all relatively stabilized for the time being. I have a work project now which keeps my mind occupied and keeps the money flowing.
| 672 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:26:47pm |
re: #666 Floral Giraffe
Can't do the 1800 sq ft., but we can get you into the "1800" model, no problem.
| 673 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:26:49pm |
Is every doctor earning in excess of, say, $100,000 a year evil for exploiting the sick for personal gain?
| 674 |
dugmartsch Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:26:52pm |
re: #381 borgcube
True story: Pizza guy just came by. I told him the House just passed the healthcare bill and asked him if he was glad that he is now going to get free care. He said yes. It was "cool" in fact. I told him his tip was that I'm now paying for his healthcare and put exact change in his hand. He didn't have a clue.
Guess I have to order from another pizza place now.
Congratulations. You have displaced John Edwards from his perch as biggest douche in the universe.
| 675 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:27:10pm |
re: #664 recusancy
Hu? You won't lose a thing. What are you talking about?
My monthly disability check is going to get cut to pay for it.
| 676 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:27:33pm |
re: #660 Existential_Donuts
Is that what it costs now with the USPS? I wouldn't know, I haven't mailed a letter in a few years.
| 677 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:28:06pm |
re: #674 dugmartsch
Wow, pizza guy got some mileage tonight.
| 678 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:28:15pm |
re: #665 karmic_inquisitor
No. It wouldn't. They will have no incentive to stay healthy. They do now even though you find the basis for that motivation to be unsustainable morally.
Look - you are giving everyone unlimited access to medical services. And somehow people thing that congress will somehow curb excessive consumption of those services (you know - the function that the evil claim denyers do at insurance companies - even though they get sued when they get it wrong).
You can't give people unlimited access to a resource and expect them to not make excessive use of it.
It won't be cheaper. It can't be cheaper.
It will not be unlimited access to medical services. It will have limits just like private insurance does.
| 679 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:28:20pm |
re: #648 tradewind
We did this on a small scale in my state, called it TNCare.
Massive fraud.
Massive corruption.
Massive amount of doctors disgusted with it and refusing to cooperate, or leaving their practices here to relocate.
Also in Massachusetts with MassCare. Also an albatross and rife with problems, but a success in terms of creating a larger, more expensive bureaucracy.
They are so chuffed with these expensive failures that they will roll them out on a national scale. Think of all the new jobs as legions of people go to work for the government administering this superaucracy.
| 680 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:28:27pm |
re: #656 solomonpanting
Food stamps, low-income subsidized housing. I can't think of a clothing reference.
We cannot rest, we cannot stand by, while people all over this country do not have the same access to Nike shoes and Gap jeans. The new subsidized clothing program will allow the poor to go to school and not be ostracized for their generic brand shoes and jeans. Our children should not be forced to suffer such indignities. Studies show that without proper clothing, students are twice as likely to drop out from being teased by the more popular students. We need to close this Gap, and I urge the passage of the Free Clothing Act.
| 681 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:28:45pm |
from my experience, America is a vast and wealthy country to bumble around in checking out the bling...you do that for a certain portion of you life then Boom!...there you are with nothing but memories of what you could have and should have done to make money and generate your own wealth...people are lazy, subordinate and lack ambition...if you are broke, you did it to yourself...even now there is a ton of money to be made...I get tired of splitting hairs and whining about it...I've paid astronomical money for health care, taxes beyond what the average person would call robbery, and it was...hitch it up and figure it out...if I can do it so can anyone else...the system does not own you, and there is money to be made...if you are cornered then brawl your way out...make a plan...move if you have to, go back to school...do what you have to do
| 682 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:29:08pm |
I'd like the economic moralists of the board to tell me the threshold at which a doctor is paid too much. And a nurse.
| 683 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:29:15pm |
re: #672 jaunte
Is the kitchen "fully equipped"?
( I have NO idea what that means! A microwave, maybe?)
LOL!
| 684 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:29:26pm |
re: #426 Dan G.
What do you believe is the source for the high costs? Is it insurance markup? Pharm mark up? Service provider mark up? I've got my own ideas here, I'm just curious about the extent that you've thought this through.
It's a whole combination of reasons, but here's one example.
A doctor who does a really thorough exam and takes a detailed history, spends an hour chatting with the patient, asking questions, can diagnose a problem that only needs one test to confirm. But insurance companies won't pay a doctor for that kind of consult. So the doctor does a 10 minute exam, orders 14 different tests and come back to see me next week. A $600 problem just became a $4000 problem, plus the patient missed 3 days of work instead of one afternoon.
| 685 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:29:32pm |
re: #649 Gus 802
Yeah, but actually, more Democrats voted against the bill then then Republicans that voted for it -- which was all of one. That would be 39 Democrats.
Not commenting on the bill. I really think it would have been a better bill if everyone met halfway.
Dick Morris has explained that. These votes are as choreographed as a WWE wrestling match. They decide in advance how many Dems they will allow to vote aginst the bill, based on perceived vulnerability. This votes close enough that there were some real elements in it, but most of the votes had been agreed upon long ago.
| 686 |
karmic_inquisitor Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:29:33pm |
re: #678 recusancy
It will not be unlimited access to medical services. It will have limits just like private insurance does.
Then how is it better?
| 687 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:29:48pm |
re: #667 tradewind
The list of providers that submit fake claims and their amounts would curl your hair.
On a national level... well, Hello California, we're comin' to join ya.
I posted something about TennCare the other day. The failures in that program is staggering. RomneyCare in Mass is getting pretty bad too. I have yet to see an example of a successful government run health care system.
| 688 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:30:13pm |
re: #673 karmic_inquisitor
Is every doctor earning in excess of, say, $100,000 a year evil for exploiting the sick for personal gain?
Only if their malpractice insurance costs less than $99,000.
| 689 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:30:20pm |
re: #675 sngnsgt
My monthly disability check is going to get cut to pay for it.
No it won't. Where does it say that in the bill? The bill is to help people in need such as yourself. Everyone complains that Dems give to much welfare and you're complaining that your welfare will be taken away. Both can't be right.
| 690 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:30:31pm |
re: #683 Floral Giraffe
Is the kitchen "fully equipped"?
( I have NO idea what that means! A microwave, maybe?)
LOL!
You should see the kitchen; it's as big as all outdoors.
| 691 |
TheQuis Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:30:51pm |
re: #308 BryanS
You're making a big assumption. To control costs, there WILL be rationing. When the market is not there to control supply versus demand through the pricing mechanism, something has to act in the place of price. That something is the advisory panel, which will surely conclude it is more cost effective to spend money on the young's health care and not buy that expensive medical equipment on an older person in the process of dying. Sounds cold--and it is. That is how Europeans control health care costs. It's not a "death panel", but the last days of ones' life are often the most expensive for the least return (on life expectancy). Metrics for doing that cost/benefit analysis will be developed, and the amount of money approved will be weighed against those standards.
The truth of the matter is, this already happens with private insurance companies.
| 692 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:30:56pm |
re: #681 albusteve
You are so old school. In the new republic the government will provide care, jobs, education and opportunity.
| 693 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:31:22pm |
re: #593 Dark_Falcon
But Enron did get caught in the end. There will always be cheaters and laws and regulations will adapt to deal with them. It's a offense/defense spiral, just like getting a bomber through hostile air defenses.
Not before doing *huge* damage.
| 694 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:31:47pm |
re: #669 austin_blue
2% ish is what I've repeated heard as the profit margin of insurance companies.
| 695 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:32:12pm |
re: #686 karmic_inquisitor
Then how is it better?
It will be non profit. It will provide a non profit competition for the private companies. There will be some checks to make sure that's it's not unfairly competitive but it will be competitive.
| 696 |
jonik Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:32:41pm |
It is human nature that any govt run program will have massive fraud, misuse of funds and incompentencies. Every time you visit the DMV, city hall or have to deal with the IRS it is on display. Gov't employees have no incentive whatsoever to be efficient. What we have done today is take the first step in letting the same government that wastes billions of dollars and we have given them access to waste trillions. Guess that Hope and Change is working now.
| 697 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:32:52pm |
re: #669 austin_blue
Further, does FWA (fraud, waste, and abuse) get factored into overhead?
| 698 |
dugmartsch Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:33:14pm |
re: #677 borgcube
Wow, pizza guy got some mileage tonight.
I think even my friends who hate politics will get a chuckle out of how awful a thing that is to do to someone who's delivering you food.
| 699 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:33:45pm |
re: #673 karmic_inquisitor
Is every doctor earning in excess of, say, $100,000 a year evil for exploiting the sick for personal gain?
No because he/she's providing a service. The insurance companies aren't doing shit except holding onto your money until you need it.
| 700 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:34:05pm |
re: #685 Dark_Falcon
Dick Morris has explained that. These votes are as choreographed as a WWE wrestling match. They decide in advance how many Dems they will allow to vote aginst the bill, based on perceived vulnerability. This votes close enough that there were some real elements in it, but most of the votes had been agreed upon long ago.
Ah. Yeah, I would see it based on "perceived vulnerability." Based on constituency approval and such. I imagine the red state Dems would vote no.
Watched some of the debates on C-Span this afternoon. The process seems rather archaic with the "times" and "yielding of times." Waxman had control of the floor.
| 701 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:34:17pm |
re: #673 karmic_inquisitor
Is every doctor earning in excess of, say, $100,000 a year evil for exploiting the sick for personal gain?
No, The Doctor has to charge what his/Her services are "worth" plus the costs of schooling. And the costs of "doing buisness" like rent, insurance, advertising...etc..
| 702 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:34:22pm |
re: #697 Dan G.
Further, does FWA (fraud, waste, and abuse) get factored into overhead?
I believe those are factored in as endemic expenses and beneficial crises for further regulation.
| 703 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:34:46pm |
re: #694 Dan G.
2% ish is what I've repeated heard as the profit margin of insurance companies.
That's profit margin, not overhead. Overhead is north of 15% for private insurers, including a shitpot of money spent on research to deny claims for "pre-existing conditions".
| 704 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:34:52pm |
re: #698 dugmartsch
I think even my friends who hate politics will get a chuckle out of how awful a thing that is to do to someone who's delivering you food.
you missed the point then
| 705 |
jonik Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:35:22pm |
re: #701 Floral Giraffe
I know two doctors; and both tell me the same thing. Their insurance costs are their biggest costs.
| 706 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:35:23pm |
re: #693 austin_blue
Not before doing *huge* damage.
True, but just like some of the bombers or missiles will always get through, some of the cheaters will evade detection long enough to do damage. I hate this fact, but there is no way to make the system error-proof. We can minimize cheating with good oversight, but we cannot eliminate entirely.
| 707 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:35:35pm |
re: #681 albusteve
from my experience, America is a vast and wealthy country to bumble around in checking out the bling...you do that for a certain portion of you life then Boom!...there you are with nothing but memories of what you could have and should have done to make money and generate your own wealth...people are lazy, subordinate and lack ambition...if you are broke, you did it to yourself...even now there is a ton of money to be made...I get tired of splitting hairs and whining about it...I've paid astronomical money for health care, taxes beyond what the average person would call robbery, and it was...hitch it up and figure it out...if I can do it so can anyone else...the system does not own you, and there is money to be made...if you are cornered then brawl your way out...make a plan...move if you have to, go back to school...do what you have to do
Compassion and forgiveness are not listed anywhere in there. You care about people, everyone does. Is it impossible for you to help someone that is all of those terrible things you listed? Is it fine that they (and their families) struggle to live in one of the richest countries in the history of civilization? Conservatives always talk about American Exceptionalism, but does it only apply to our foreign policy? Is it possible that part of American Exceptionalism includes helping people that might not deserve it? Your points about determination and self sufficiency are great lessons, but if no one is willing to help, how the hell will they ever learn?
| 708 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:35:48pm |
re: #660 Existential_Donuts
A letter from across the country in a couple of days?
Only if you're lucky.
I am still having problems with getting mail delivered to the wrong address after several months of filing inquiries. And a year or so ago, we got a nice soggy bundle from the post office with a form letter notice that our mail had been kept as evidence in a postal theft case, but out of the kindness of their hearts, they were delivering it now! Mostly fliers and old ads. Opened personal correspondence, torn, some bills that were barely legible inside water-stained envelopes. Walking into our local post office, you see six windows, but only two are open, staffed by people who act as if you are intruding on their lunch hour. On the plus side, the man who delivers the mail is very pleasant...
Forty-four cents? Stand by...not for long. It's really getting hard to keep up with the correct rates.
| 709 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:36:18pm |
| 710 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:36:20pm |
re: #691 TheQuis
The truth of the matter is, this already happens with private insurance companies.
Not really, since the elderly are no longer privately insured. Insurance companies don't market how much life expectancy people gain by picking them over their competitors--though, maybe they should ?
| 711 |
Irenicum Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:36:27pm |
Well this is a fast thread! Not gonna even try to get caught up!
| 712 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:36:58pm |
re #689recusancy
No it won't. Where does it say that in the bill? The bill is to help people in need such as yourself. Everyone complains that Dems give to much welfare and you're complaining that your welfare will be taken away. Both can't be right.
| 713 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:37:05pm |
re: #703 austin_blue
I know, but it is one side of the equation (i.e. my claim was that the bureaucratic waste would be more than this).
| 714 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:37:19pm |
re: #697 Dan G.
Further, does FWA (fraud, waste, and abuse) get factored into overhead?
Nope. That's not overhead. That's a reflection of "shrinking government" to reduce its impact on the poor business community.
| 715 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:37:22pm |
re: #687 NJDhockeyfan
Oh well, maybe the third time's the charm.
/not/
| 716 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:37:42pm |
re: #708 tradewind
Only if you're lucky.
I am still having problems with getting mail delivered to the wrong address after several months of filing inquiries. And a year or so ago, we got a nice soggy bundle from the post office with a form letter notice that our mail had been kept as evidence in a postal theft case, but out of the kindness of their hearts, they were delivering it now! Mostly fliers and old ads. Opened personal correspondence, torn, some bills that were barely legible inside water-stained envelopes. Walking into our local post office, you see six windows, but only two are open, staffed by people who act as if you are intruding on their lunch hour. On the plus side, the man who delivers the mail is very pleasant...
Forty-four cents? Stand by...not for long. It's really getting hard to keep up with the correct rates.
Sounds like one vote for private mail. I agree that most mail sucks, but as an efficient operation on a large scale I stand by my statement. I'm sure even FedEx and the others screw up too.
| 717 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:38:11pm |
re: #714 austin_blue
[...]That's a reflection of "shrinking government" to reduce its impact on the poor business community.
Huh?
| 718 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:38:30pm |
re: #543 The Sanity Inspector
I just made a personal investment into his future healthcare. My money is best sent to Washington and Sacramento to take care of him. I have put aside the $5 with "Pizza Guy's healthcare" written on it in order to be prepared when the IRS comes asking for my contribution.
| 719 |
Stanghazi Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:38:31pm |
re: #705 jonik
I know two doctors; and both tell me the same thing. Their insurance costs are their biggest costs.
One of my clients is a Dr.'s office. Their biggest expense is payroll. There is an employee (50K annually) that handles the insurance billing. Their medical malpractice is NOT one of their biggest expenses. California, 5 providers.
| 720 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:39:34pm |
The Future:
"Welcome Mr. Smith, I'm your end of life counselor Mr. Ericks and I want to thank you for giving us your time today."
"Well I got your letter and it said if I didn't show up here today I could be fined or even thrown in jail."
"Now Mr. Smith lets not make this adversarial, we just need a few moments of your time to determine your future health choices."
"What do you mean by my future health choices?"
"According to your doctors report you are overweight, you have diabetes, poor circulation, and you also smoke, is all that correct sir?"
"Well, I guess..."
"You see sir, we have quite a bit of experience with patients such as yourself and the outcome is always very bad...for us. You will end up costing us a great deal of money, money we need to treat other patients with more hopeful prognosis."
"Well I..."
"Not to worry sir, so far we have only been mandated to reduce diabetes spending by half so really your chances of survival here could be an awful lot worse now couldn't they?"
"What are you talking about...survival?"
"Here sir, just pick one of these pills and then once you take it you can leave and go home."
"Pick one? What do they do?"
"Well, one does absolutely nothing, the other I'm afraid is a deadly poison, it is a foolproof way to reduce costs without being accused of showing any favoritism you see."
"Your mad, I'll do no such thing!"
"Please sir, don't make me call security in here, if I do that you will have forfeited your choice."
/// ?
| 721 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:39:47pm |
re: #712 sngnsgt
So... I don't see anywhere in there where it says your benefits will be cut.
The House bill will not cut any benefits, said Tricia Neuman, vice president and director of the Medicare Policy Project at the Kaiser Family Foundation.
| 722 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:39:51pm |
re: #664 recusancy
Besides that, I don't want to be on Obama care.
| 723 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:40:06pm |
re: #703 austin_blue
That's profit margin, not overhead. Overhead is north of 15% for private insurers, including a shitpot of money spent on research to deny claims for "pre-existing conditions".
15% does seem high for overhead costs of an insurer. But then again, I'm sure a lot of that overhead also goes toward fighting fraud. Happen to know Medicare's overhead costs for comparison?
| 724 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:40:22pm |
re: #706 Dark_Falcon
True, but just like some of the bombers or missiles will always get through, some of the cheaters will evade detection long enough to do damage. I hate this fact, but there is no way to make the system error-proof. We can minimize cheating with good oversight, but we cannot eliminate entirely.
But oversight must be funded, and the R's during the last administration cut funding for enforcement across the board. We let the wolf into pasture. With obvious lamentable results.
| 725 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:41:06pm |
Health care bill or no health care bill, love it, hate it, despise it, celebrate it, drink, cry, scream, whatever. I'm personally in the suspicious optimist camp. Not celebrating per se, but hopeful that it will be an improvement over what we have now. That is, if it passes the Senate, which it may not.
But let me tell ya, Jack: Anyone who floats this "the country is doomed" shit? Tell me what zipcode the town of Hyperbole resides in, I'd like to send you a postcard. The republic will be no more? Really? Because of a health care bill? You must not think very highly of your country. This line of hysterics was bullshit when the left did it because of Iraq, and it's bullshit now.
/Seacrest out
| 726 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:41:17pm |
re: #707 Existential_Donuts
Compassion and forgiveness are not listed anywhere in there. You care about people, everyone does. Is it impossible for you to help someone that is all of those terrible things you listed? Is it fine that they (and their families) struggle to live in one of the richest countries in the history of civilization? Conservatives always talk about American Exceptionalism, but does it only apply to our foreign policy? Is it possible that part of American Exceptionalism includes helping people that might not deserve it? Your points about determination and self sufficiency are great lessons, but if no one is willing to help, how the hell will they ever learn?
you don't know me...compassion and forgiveness was not my point...don't rag on about what you think about my life...why don't you just ask me if I give away money rather than try to sound so profound and idealistic...political ideology has nothing to do with my post
| 727 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:41:30pm |
re: #717 Dan G.
Huh?
You'll never get a handle on WFA if you cut the guts out of your enforcement assets.
| 728 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:41:52pm |
re: #721 recusancy
That leaves us with Obama's claim that, under the health care reform proposal, Medicare benefits will not be cut. He's right that the bill does not directly trim Medicare benefits; instead, the government is proposing ways to slow or eliminate some Medicare spending to beef up other aspects of the plan.
| 729 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:42:29pm |
re: #722 sngnsgt
Besides that, I don't want to be on Obama care.
Ahh... So it's just partisan. What if we called it medicare instead? Cause that's what you are on and will continue to be on. Or we can call it Reagancare if that makes you feel better.
| 731 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:43:03pm |
Medicare’s (true) Administrative Costs
Merrill Mathew’s of the Council for Affordable Health Insurance (CAFI) summarizes the findings of Mark Litow’s paper “Medicare’s Hidden Administrative Costs.” Litow finds that taking into account extra legal costs from Medicare adjudication and CMS salaries, the administrative cost ratio increases to 5.2%.
[Link: healthcare-economist.com...]
| 732 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:43:05pm |
re: #722 sngnsgt
Besides that, I don't want to be on Obama care.
Then you should buy private insurance, which will remain your choice.
| 733 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:43:20pm |
re: #698 dugmartsch
That's only a microscopic example of what's coming down the road and the surprises ahead for people who think others should be forcibly required to pay for their life choices. You ain't seen nothin' yet.
| 734 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:43:54pm |
re: #381 borgcube
True story: Pizza guy just came by. I told him the House just passed the healthcare bill and asked him if he was glad that he is now going to get free care. He said yes. It was "cool" in fact. I told him his tip was that I'm now paying for his healthcare and put exact change in his hand. He didn't have a clue.
Guess I have to order from another pizza place now.
You're such a liar. I don't believe for a moment you actually did that. Nice troll, though!
| 735 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:44:04pm |
re: #719 Stanley Sea
One of my clients is a Dr.'s office. Their biggest expense is payroll. There is an employee (50K annually) that handles the insurance billing. Their medical malpractice is NOT one of their biggest expenses. California, 5 providers.
I'm sure it depends on the type of practice. Doctors practicing in surgery, ob/gyn in particular have very high insurance costs.
| 736 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:44:54pm |
re: #729 recusancy
Ahh... So it's just partisan. What if we called it medicare instead? Cause that's what you are on and will continue to be on. Or we can call it Reagancare if that makes you feel better.
Partisan yes, that too. Too many politicians in my health care.
| 737 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:44:59pm |
re: #733 borgcube
That's only a microscopic example of what's coming down the road and the surprises ahead for people who think others should be forcibly required to pay for their life choices. You ain't seen nothin' yet.
| 738 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:45:29pm |
#728 sngnsgt
That leaves us with Obama's claim that, under the health care reform proposal, Medicare benefits will not be cut. He's right that the bill does not directly trim Medicare benefits; instead, the government is proposing ways to slow or eliminate some Medicare spending to beef up other aspects of the plan.
See what happened in Tennessee. Imagine this happening on a much bigger scale. I can.
Social Security Recipients Shocked By Lower Checks
100,000 People No Longer Qualified For TennCare To Pay Their Medicare Premiums
HOHENWALD, Tenn. -- Residents who receive a Social Security check, or know someone who does, may have been in shock this month.The amount of those checks was substantially less than expected, leaving those on already tight budgets with some problems.
"Somebody basically stole $290 from me this month, and not telling me it was going to happen until just a week, or so, before it did," said Social Security recipient Gayla Groom.
Groom lives in Lewis County and struggles to live on Social Security disability checks. This month is even tougher because she's receiving nearly $300 less than normal, she says thanks to an error by the state of Tennessee.
"What it means to me is that I don't have any money to do any of the other things I was going to do this month, like buy groceries, buy dog food or get a hair cut. I don't have money to put gas in my car. I don't have money to get my prescription filled," said Groom.
The Tennessee Health Care Campaign, a healthcare watchdog group, confirms that Groom and about 100,000 others in Tennessee were notified that after July they no longer qualified for TennCare to pay their Medicare medical insurance premiums.
But a number of those recipients weren't notified until September. They didn't have time to cancel their Medicare, so the premiums for August and September were taken out of their October checks.
| 739 |
Stanghazi Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:45:35pm |
re: #735 BryanS
I'm sure it depends on the type of practice. Doctors practicing in surgery, ob/gyn in particular have very high insurance costs.
Yep, most likely. This is a very busy general practice.
| 740 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:46:00pm |
re: #734 WindUpBird
You're such a liar. I don't believe for a moment you actually did that. Nice troll, though!
You're killing me already, Birdman. Been out drinking craft beers?
| 741 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:46:00pm |
re: #734 WindUpBird
I really did. I swear. Even my wife didn't believe me at first when I told her.
| 742 |
TheQuis Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:46:02pm |
re: #317 BryanS
Yes. I'll be able to afford good health care from private carriers--most others, not so much. This program will really suck for the poor and the middle class.
Ummm They already lack coverage or are on government subsidized medicaid.
| 743 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:46:02pm |
re: #727 austin_blue
Ok. Let me restate, just to make sure we're clear. I stated that the profit of private insurers is less than is *wasted* by federal bureaucracies. I'm talking about particular one's, in the medical field at present. I agree that the government should be well funded and well equipped to do its appropriate jobs (outlining these would take another thread and another week). Using Medicaid/care as a means of predicting how the proposed public option will fare in comparison to private insurance; I state that these public entities will waste more value/money/time than the private ones gain in profit (on a percentage basis).
| 744 |
tradewind Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:46:30pm |
re: #729 recusancy
We may not have to call it anything just yet... Harry Reid is one fry short of a happy meal, and there's no guarantee he can get it done.
| 745 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:46:33pm |
re: #734 WindUpBird
You're such a liar. I don't believe for a moment you actually did that. Nice troll, though!
bad form
| 746 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:46:44pm |
re: #731 jaunte
Medicare’s (true) Administrative Costs
[Link: healthcare-economist.com...]
That's not too bad. Wonder if we bumped up a couple points to fight fraud, would we get a few more points from those savings?
| 747 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:46:48pm |
re: #732 austin_blue
Then you should buy private insurance, which will remain your
choice[obligation, else you will be fined].
Based on what passed today anyway.
| 748 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:47:12pm |
re: #732 austin_blue
Then you should buy private insurance, which will remain your choice.
Why should I when I've already paid into Medicare?
| 749 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:47:34pm |
re: #741 borgcube
I really did. I swear. Even my wife didn't believe me at first when I told her.
Zzzz
| 750 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:47:48pm |
re: #107 redshirt
OK, I demand a 100% tax on McDonalds and all other fattening and unhealthy foods right now. An extra tax on the morbidly obese as well. If I am paying your health care, I can tell you how to be healthy.
The politicians are way ahead of you.
| 751 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:47:53pm |
re: #726 albusteve
you don't know me...compassion and forgiveness was not my point...don't rag on about what you think about my life...why don't you just ask me if I give away money rather than try to sound so profound and idealistic...political ideology has nothing to do with my post
Not ragging, just asking. I don't understand your point of view. I assume since you decided to attack me, my questions will remain unanswered. Not unusual. I don't know you, not in the least. But your rhetoric on this board does not flow randomly from you. You have a point of view. It is possible that you are different than your comments suggest, I have no way of knowing. But you present yourself as a hard boiled conservative. Just as much as a put on as my 'profound and idealistic' rhetoric. I stand behind mine, how about you?
| 752 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:47:58pm |
re: #724 austin_blue
But oversight must be funded, and the R's during the last administration cut funding for enforcement across the board. We let the wolf into pasture. With obvious lamentable results.
Nonsense, when's the last time the SEC caught a ponzi scheme before it blew up? Very little fraud is caught in advance by the government just like very little crime is thwarted in advance by the police. We all know how effective the War on Drugs has been in reducing drugs.
This blame it all on the Republicans/Bush is a tired and flawed record with you.
| 753 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:48:10pm |
re: #737 bratwurst
Eek. BTO. More frightening than Obamacare in my book.
| 754 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:48:16pm |
re: #736 sngnsgt
Partisan yes, that too. Too many politicians in my health care.
To many politicians in your government run healthcare? Get government out of my healthcare and also don't touch my medicare!
| 755 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:48:45pm |
re: #742 TheQuis
Ummm They already lack coverage or are on government subsidized medicaid.
If they are on government subsidized medicaid, then why do we need a government option?
| 756 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:48:45pm |
| 757 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:49:32pm |
re: #754 recusancy
To many politicians in your government run healthcare? Get government out of my healthcare and also don't touch my medicare!
Anything that puts more government in my life or anyone else's.
| 758 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:49:40pm |
re: #752 Bagua
Further, the SEC signed off on Enron's shell-game accounting system (definitely not based on GAAP). BTW, this system was instrumental in perpetrating the fraud.
| 759 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:49:47pm |
re: #754 recusancy
To many politicians in your government run healthcare? Get government out of my healthcare and also don't touch my medicare!
Or just get out of them both.
| 760 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:50:08pm |
| 762 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:51:01pm |
re: #755 BryanS
If they are on government subsidized medicaid, then why do we need a government option?
For those who don't qualify for medicaid.
| 764 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:51:34pm |
| 766 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:51:40pm |
re: #756 Gus 802
5 cents a can!
Outrage!
//
Yeah. A nickel here, a dime there. No big deal.
Except to poor people. Why do Democrats hate the poor?
| 767 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:51:57pm |
re: #731 jaunte
Medicare’s (true) Administrative Costs
[Link: healthcare-economist.com...]
As I said, 2-5%. 5.2% is certainly within that range.
| 769 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:53:24pm |
re: #764 recusancy
So you want to get rid of medicare?
I was referencing your statement. I agree that those who get medicare and are opposed to the health care bill are a wee bit hypocritical. However, I do not receive medicare and am opposed to the health care bill...
| 770 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:53:26pm |
re: #766 Racer X
Yeah. A nickel here, a dime there. No big deal.
Except to poor people. Why do Democrats hate the poor?
Strictly voluntary.
| 771 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:53:30pm |
re: #762 recusancy
For those who don't qualify for medicaid.
Then the solution is not to socialize medicine for everyone, but to tweak who is eligible for the medicaid program. I may not like that much, but if that was the solution for covering more of the poor, I'd be less tweaked about that then by a new government bureaucracy that threatens to drag us into a single payer type system.
| 772 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:53:33pm |
re: #764 recusancy
So you want to get rid of medicare?
Yes, I'd rather be working and on private insurance. I have Epilepsy, a prospective employer sees a red X on my face before I even apply.
| 773 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:53:51pm |
Thanks GDFrank, I needed the third downding to make it onto the bottom 10 list, I wanted to try it once.
Lol, sorry for hyperbole trolling, but everyone is being so serious, It just made me want to throw something ridiculous out there.
Besides I never got any downdings before, at least that I'm aware of, I wanted to see if my ego could withstand it. ;)
/
| 774 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:53:51pm |
re: #758 Dan G.
Further, the SEC signed off on Enron's shell-game accounting system (definitely not based on GAAP). BTW, this system was instrumental in perpetrating the fraud.
That's correct. More flawed regulation would have been irrelevant. Just as it is irrelevant in the majority of frauds uncovered.
| 775 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:53:58pm |
re: #766 Racer X
Yeah. A nickel here, a dime there. No big deal.
Except to poor people. Why do Democrats hate the poor?
I buy a can of Mt. Dew almost every day. I also smoke. The cigarette tax has been the worst. Of course I buy booze too and that's also a rather high tax. 5 cents in the general scheme of things is rather low. Now, of course there was the re-writing of overtime rules by the Republicans as well as the new bankruptcy laws.
| 776 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:55:18pm |
re: #774 Bagua
You cannot legislate competence into existence, nor will throwing more money at a problem cause competence to sprout into existence.
| 777 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:55:39pm |
re: #775 Gus 802
I also smoke and drink Coke all the time, I'm going to get double-screwed.
| 778 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:55:59pm |
re: #766 Racer X
Yeah. A nickel here, a dime there. No big deal.
Except to poor people. Why do Democrats hate the poor?
Diabetes is expensive.
| 779 |
Dan G. Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:56:09pm |
re: #767 austin_blue
Final question for the night. Why do you use overhead as the basis for comparison versus the bottom line (i.e. whether more comes in than goes out)?
| 781 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:56:30pm |
re: #770 bratwurst
Strictly voluntary.
It's all about generating revenue, and has nothing to do with health. A soda tax will not deter soft drink consumption; a soda tax will do nothing to slow down obesity or disease. It's all about the money. Period.
| 782 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:56:34pm |
re: #751 Existential_Donuts
Not ragging, just asking. I don't understand your point of view. I assume since you decided to attack me, my questions will remain unanswered. Not unusual. I don't know you, not in the least. But your rhetoric on this board does not flow randomly from you. You have a point of view. It is possible that you are different than your comments suggest, I have no way of knowing. But you present yourself as a hard boiled conservative. Just as much as a put on as my 'profound and idealistic' rhetoric. I stand behind mine, how about you?
I can't help it if you don't understand me, and the insinuation that I am 'attacking you' is ridiculous...no it is not impossible for me to help people less fortunate than myself...what other question did you ask?...as for 'rhetorical flow', I have no idea what you are talking about
| 783 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:56:59pm |
re: #766 Racer X
Yeah. A nickel here, a dime there. No big deal.
Except to poor people. Why do Democrats hate the poor?
Wow. Just wow. Considering that the decrease in income tax rates during the Reagan administration were largely offset by increases in payroll taxes incurred by rank and file workers, you have made a statement completely unsupported by fact. Might want to do a little research on that. Google is your friend.
| 784 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:57:11pm |
re: #768 bratwurst
Oh, knock it off! What next? Leo Sayer? Kansas? Chicago? I'm embarrassed that I can even name those off the top of my head. God that was an awful time in music. Thank god for punk rock.
| 785 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:57:25pm |
re: #772 sngnsgt
Yes, I'd rather be working and on private insurance. I have Epilepsy, a prospective employer sees a red X on my face before I even apply.
Yeah. Most everyone on a form of welfare would rather be making more money working and have the choice to get a private plan. You seem to assume that you're different from everyone else on welfare cause you really want to work but just can't. Well... They can't either. That's the point of all this. It isn't to help the lazy but to help those who truly need it.
| 786 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:58:05pm |
re: #778 Sharmuta
Diabetes is expensive.
Soft drinks do not cause diabetes. 12 a day might contribute.
| 787 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:58:34pm |
re: #778 Sharmuta
Diabetes is expensive.
Since when have the people lost the right to screw up their own lives? I suppose since more and more, the government is who is considered responsible for the cost of caring for those people. That's the problem with the nanny state--you get the warm fuzzy feel of a government bureaucrat helping you run your life for you in exchange for less freedom.
| 788 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:58:45pm |
re: #776 Dan G.
You cannot legislate competence into existence, nor will throwing more money at a problem cause competence to sprout into existence.
Exactly, but unfortunately understanding this requires understanding the whole picture, not the partisan talking points from either side nor the biased or just inadequate reporting from the MSM.
| 789 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:59:00pm |
re: #786 Racer X
Soft drinks do not cause diabetes. 12 a day might contribute.
Then if you're just drinking a few a day then that tax won't effect you much. If you can't afford the extra 5 cents then you should probably be drinking water anyways.
| 790 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:59:22pm |
re: #771 BryanS
Then the solution is not to socialize medicine for everyone, but to tweak who is eligible for the medicaid program. I may not like that much, but if that was the solution for covering more of the poor, I'd be less tweaked about that then by a new government bureaucracy that threatens to drag us into a single payer type system.
You have an existing "government bureaucracy" that efficiently delivers health care to millions of your fellow citizens. Why not expand it?
| 791 |
checked08 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:59:33pm |
Hear hear! Please save us, from all the democracy going about lately!
/
This thread reminds me of the South Park Day After Tomorrow parody. Or maybe the Boy Who Cried Wolf would be a better analogy?
| 792 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:00:03pm |
re: #778 Sharmuta
Diabetes is expensive.
no shit...it is killing my little sister slowly but surly...she has a strong base of support but that does not help pay for her help...the rest of her family has to chip in...a terrible affliction later in life
| 793 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:00:29pm |
re: #787 BryanS
Since when have the people lost the right to screw up their own lives? I suppose since more and more, the government is who is considered responsible for the cost of caring for those people. That's the problem with the nanny state--you get the warm fuzzy feel of a government bureaucrat helping you run your life for you in exchange for less freedom.
Concur. Let people make their own mistakes and stop having government mandate that everyone pay to clean up those mistakes.
| 794 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:00:55pm |
re: #783 austin_blue
Wow. Just wow. Considering that the decrease in income tax rates during the Reagan administration were largely offset by increases in payroll taxes incurred by rank and file workers, you have made a statement completely unsupported by fact. Might want to do a little research on that. Google is your friend.
The soda tax will do nothing to promote healthy living. It's all about revenue. You and I can afford a 5 cent tax per drink. Poor people get hit harder.
| 795 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:00:57pm |
re: #782 albusteve
I can't help it if you don't understand me, and the insinuation that I am 'attacking you' is ridiculous...no it is not impossible for me to help people less fortunate than myself...what other question did you ask?...as for 'rhetorical flow', I have no idea what you are talking about
We both have no idea what the other is talking about. I guess that's okay. My gut is that you do know what I am talking about. Your position is weak and you can't defend it. My questions aren't hard. They are framed well and not in the least bit inflammatory. They are not confusing or silly. I am asking you why you are conservative and you won't (or can't) answer. Nuance is clearly not your strong suit, so I will just ask. Is it okay that people suffer because they make bad decisions?
| 796 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:00:58pm |
re: #787 BryanS
Since when have the people lost the right to screw up their own lives? I suppose since more and more, the government is who is considered responsible for the cost of caring for those people. That's the problem with the nanny state--you get the warm fuzzy feel of a government bureaucrat helping you run your life for you in exchange for less freedom.
That's what you get in a democracy.
| 797 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:01:06pm |
re: #777 sngnsgt
I also smoke and drink Coke all the time, I'm going to get double-screwed.
I've come to the conclusion that everything is expensive. Lately I'll spend a dollar a day one some dumb snack and think, "great, that's $3,650 in 10 years." Why I buy it I don't know. Habit I guess. Would be nice to just get by with drinking water and eating three square meals.
| 798 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:01:23pm |
re: #781 Racer X
It's all about generating revenue, and has nothing to do with health. A soda tax will not deter soft drink consumption; a soda tax will do nothing to slow down obesity or disease. It's all about the money. Period.
I don't imagine it will really do anything major in terms of addressing the epidemic of obesity in this country...but if we are taxing the hell out of tobacco, I honestly can't see any problem with collecting a couple of cents on HFCS-laden drinks which are contributing to a public health crisis nearly in the same league as the effects of smoking. At least we are not taking advantage of physical addictions like we do with cigs and booze!
| 799 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:01:55pm |
re: #790 austin_blue
You have an existing "government bureaucracy" that efficiently delivers health care to millions of your fellow citizens. Why not expand it?
Because it is rife with fraud, waste and escalating costs.
| 800 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:02:15pm |
re: #785 recusancy
Yeah. Most everyone on a form of welfare would rather be making more money working and have the choice to get a private plan. You seem to assume that you're different from everyone else on welfare cause you really want to work but just can't. Well... They can't either. That's the point of all this. It isn't to help the lazy but to help those who truly need it.
I don't want the help, I'd rather be working and have private health care.
| 801 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:02:46pm |
re: #800 sngnsgt
I don't want the help, I'd rather be working and have private health care.
Then don't take it. Nobody's making you cash those medicare checks.
| 802 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:03:02pm |
re: #745 albusteve
bad form
You're right, borgcube might have been telling the truth, merely making him a mean spirited dick instead of a liar. On the other hand maybe he was actually lying about being a mean spirited dick. Either way WindUpBird didn't cover the possibility-space properly in simply calling him a liar, good point.
| 803 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:03:09pm |
There is some sort of crazy going around where people are all of a sudden convinced that govt. knows how to efficiently manage money.
| 804 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:03:29pm |
re: #785 recusancy
Yeah. Most everyone on a form of welfare would rather be making more money working and have the choice to get a private plan. You seem to assume that you're different from everyone else on welfare cause you really want to work but just can't. Well... They can't either. That's the point of all this. It isn't to help the lazy but to help those who truly need it.
How does one distinguish someone who "truly needs it" from someone who is lazy? The beauty of the welfare reform Clinton signed off on was not in the withdrawal of benefits, but in the belief they would be withdrawn. All of a sudden, long term welfare recipients found jobs at record rates. Now, surely there are many who receive this assistance who truly need it, and that is more true these days due to the state of the economy. But I just don't know how the government tells the difference between the needy and the lazy.
| 805 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:03:52pm |
re: #797 Gus 802
Would be nice to just get by with drinking water and eating three square meals.
It ain't that hard. I do it just fine.
| 806 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:04:00pm |
re: #786 Racer X
Soft drinks do not cause diabetes. 12 a day might contribute.
Digestive diseases are increasing, and I think a lot of it is diet:
In their review of statistics from various sources, Dr Everhart and team found that annual doctor visits due to digestive, liver and pancreatic diseases increased by more than 50% between 2000 and 2004, from 45 million to 100 million visits.
Furthermore, hospitalisations for these disorders exceeded 13 million in 2004, up from around 9 million in 2002.
Commenting on the findings, Robert Sandler, director of the American Gastroenterological Association Institute, said: “This report quantifies the substantial and growing burden of digestive diseases on patients and our healthcare system.
| 807 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:04:07pm |
re: #789 recusancy
Then if you're just drinking a few a day then that tax won't effect you much. If you can't afford the extra 5 cents then you should probably be drinking water anyways.
It's the "they're rich enough, they can pay it" argument. It completely overlooks the danger of increasing governments control by expanding the power to tax and it ignores whether or not the tax is even a legitimate government imposition (which in this case I contend it is not). But even without all those points, its a redistributionist argument and so indicates a desire to walk the road to socialism.
| 808 |
rollwave87 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:04:38pm |
interesting that our congressman here in NOLA was the only republican to vote yes...he only won because of the whole dollar bill jefferson 'cash in the freezer' incident, and no one really is giving him a chance to win re-election next time...but I guess he at least wants to have a chance, so he went along with what it is undoubtable a majority of the white liberal/black voters in this district would've wanted. it's definitely not going to win him any points with the national GOP. or with the louisiana state GOP/our creepy theocratic governor jindal of the 'family research council' party...so he's definitely going to face a tough battle next year.
but he (Cao) will have my support if Im still down here...not even because Im all that enthusiastic about the health care bill (although on the whole tho, it probably will turn out to be a good thing it passed), but mainly because the corrupt acorn dems down here as well as the theocratic repubs will likely both oppose him now.
sorry. that was kind of a rambling analaysis. but i just got back from seeing that paranormal activity movie and im still kind like 'whaaat is going on...'
| 809 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:05:02pm |
re: #801 recusancy
I'm on medicare for a reason, I can't work even if I wanted to.
| 810 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:05:06pm |
re: #798 bratwurst
I honestly can't see any problem with collecting a couple of cents on HFCS-laden drinks which are contributing to a public health crisis nearly in the same league as the effects of smoking.
Soft drinks are in the same league as smoking? What are you smoking?
| 811 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:05:07pm |
re: #787 BryanS
Since when have the people lost the right to screw up their own lives? I suppose since more and more, the government is who is considered responsible for the cost of caring for those people. That's the problem with the nanny state--you get the warm fuzzy feel of a government bureaucrat helping you run your life for you in exchange for less freedom.
Wel, geez, Bryan, it's just a damn shame that diseases like diabetes keep afflicting people!
Is the increase in diabetes directly associated with diet in this country?
No doubt.
But when the Feds make note of this and suggest changes to the regulatory environment, folks like you are the first to yell "Intrusive government!"
Which way do you want to have it?
| 812 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:05:25pm |
re: #784 borgcube
Oh, knock it off! What next? Leo Sayer? Kansas? Chicago? I'm embarrassed that I can even name those off the top of my head. God that was an awful time in music. Thank god for punk rock.
Ok, this one is for you...from the pizza guy!
| 813 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:05:27pm |
re: #804 BryanS
How does one distinguish someone who "truly needs it" from someone who is lazy? The beauty of the welfare reform Clinton signed off on was not in the withdrawal of benefits, but in the belief they would be withdrawn. All of a sudden, long term welfare recipients found jobs at record rates. Now, surely there are many who receive this assistance who truly need it, and that is more true these days due to the state of the economy. But I just don't know how the government tells the difference between the needy and the lazy.
I'm not sure it's possible to distinguish between the two. People will find a way to take advantage of the system, whether its a social system or a financial system, whatever. The price for this sort of thing is a certain level of abuse. Many people here are seriously against that.
| 814 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:05:53pm |
re: #790 austin_blue
You have an existing "government bureaucracy" that efficiently delivers health care to millions of your fellow citizens. Why not expand it?
Would be preferable to the plan just passed by the House, but not for the purpose I think you are thinking of. We don't need medicaid/medicare for all.
| 815 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:05:54pm |
re: #794 Racer X
The soda tax will do nothing to promote healthy living. It's all about revenue. You and I can afford a 5 cent tax per drink. Poor people get hit harder.
Thank you for completely missing the point.
| 816 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:06:03pm |
re: #804 BryanS
How does one distinguish someone who "truly needs it" from someone who is lazy? The beauty of the welfare reform Clinton signed off on was not in the withdrawal of benefits, but in the belief they would be withdrawn. All of a sudden, long term welfare recipients found jobs at record rates. Now, surely there are many who receive this assistance who truly need it, and that is more true these days due to the state of the economy. But I just don't know how the government tells the difference between the needy and the lazy.
You're right. It's tough to distinguish. What do you think of poster sngnsgt who I was replying to?
| 817 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:06:09pm |
re: #810 Racer X
Soft drinks are in the same league as smoking? What are you smoking?
Not the same, but they are contributing to a major public health crisis.
| 818 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:06:25pm |
re: #814 BryanS
Would be preferable to the plan just passed by the House, but not for the purpose I think you are thinking of. We don't need medicaid/medicare for all.
Why?
| 819 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:07:23pm |
re: #809 sngnsgt
I'm on medicare for a reason, I can't work even if I wanted to.
Yes. You have the same situation many medicare and medicaid receivers have. I know you think you're different but you are not.
| 820 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:08:14pm |
re: #806 Sharmuta
You're getting warmer. Diet plays a large role in health (obviously). Why doesn't the government tax Big Macs? Or fries? Or shakes?
Soft drinks account for about 5% of the average American diet. The remaining 95% of calories come from other foods and beverages.
| 821 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:08:50pm |
| 822 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:08:50pm |
re: #819 recusancy
Yes. You have the same situation many medicare and medicaid receivers have. I know you think you're different but you are not.
I have Epilepsy, it's hard enough to get an appointment with my Neuro as it is.
| 823 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:09:02pm |
re: #795 Existential_Donuts
We both have no idea what the other is talking about. I guess that's okay. My gut is that you do know what I am talking about. Your position is weak and you can't defend it. My questions aren't hard. They are framed well and not in the least bit inflammatory. They are not confusing or silly. I am asking you why you are conservative and you won't (or can't) answer. Nuance is clearly not your strong suit, so I will just ask. Is it okay that people suffer because they make bad decisions?
you never asked why I am conservative, if you did, show me...as far as nuance, I don't need to try and figure out what you questions are...here at LGF it's best just to be direct, drop the pretense and the bullshit...I did not say these supposed questions of yours were silly or inflammatory, that's something you made up...posting is not your strong suit, I suggest you lurk for some weeks and come back...
| 824 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:10:15pm |
re: #796 recusancy
That's what you get in a democracy.
What--the warm fuzzy bureaucrat, or the right to fail? Ever read Brave New World?
| 825 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:10:33pm |
| 827 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:10:34pm |
re: #822 sngnsgt
I have Epilepsy, it's hard enough to get an appointment with my Neuro as it is.
Yes. And I feel for you. Truly. But you're situation is not much different from most other medicare and medicaid recipients. They aren't on it cause it's fun or ideal or they're lazy.
| 828 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:11:09pm |
re: #802 goddamnedfrank
You're right, borgcube might have been telling the truth, merely making him a mean spirited dick instead of a liar. On the other hand maybe he was actually lying about being a mean spirited dick. Either way WindUpBird didn't cover the possibility-space properly in simply calling him a liar, good point.
you can fuck off too...your form is worse than his!...hahaha!...post some more stuff
| 829 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:11:28pm |
re: #799 Bagua
Because it is rife with fraud, waste and escalating costs.
Well, thank the gods that private insurance is clear as the driven snow! I am sure that military veterans who have been wounded in the TWAT or seek help for PTSD will be reassured that, despite the fact that they will be, for all time, uninsurable by private insurance, that our country will not provide them health care.
Sweet!
| 830 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:11:30pm |
Speaking of diets and healthcare, I'm gonna be upfront and express doubt that a universal healthcare system in the United States will encourage people to live healthier.
| 831 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:12:00pm |
| 832 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:12:10pm |
re: #824 BryanS
What--the warm fuzzy bureaucrat, or the right to fail? Ever read Brave New World?
You get what the majority wants. And the majority want healthcare reform. People like getting things like social security and medicare in old age. If you let them vote they're going to vote for things like that. If you don't like it then vote for someone who's opposed to it.
| 833 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:12:22pm |
re: #829 austin_blue
Well, thank the gods that private insurance is clear as the driven snow! I am sure that military veterans who have been wounded in the TWAT
That sounds painful, pardon your French.
/ q:
| 834 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:12:23pm |
re: #820 Racer X
You're getting warmer. Diet plays a large role in health (obviously). Why doesn't the government tax Big Macs? Or fries? Or shakes?
Soft drinks account for about 5% of the average American diet. The remaining 95% of calories come from other foods and beverages.
You did not just make up those numbers and try to push them off on me, did you?
While a Big Mac may be junk food, there is still nutritional value in the damned thing. Please tell me the nutritional value of a Mountain Dew. There is none. Soda is bad for you. It doesn't provide your body with anything it needs, and in fact it robs your body of things you do need. As tasty as many sodas are- they're closer to evil than delicious.
| 835 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:13:28pm |
re: #830 laZardo
Speaking of diets and healthcare, I'm gonna be upfront and express doubt that a universal healthcare system in the United States will encourage people to live healthier.
You're right about that. From what I am given to understand, eating standards on your side of the Big Pond have gone down the same way that ours have, despite the NHS.
| 836 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:13:35pm |
re: #827 recusancy
Yes. And I feel for you. Truly. But you're situation is not much different from most other medicare and medicaid recipients. They aren't on it cause it's fun or ideal or they're lazy.
Slam millions of patients into my Neuro's office and tell me how I'm not different. The wait I already sit for is long enough, where are all the doctors going to come from for all of these new patients?
| 837 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:13:46pm |
re: #811 austin_blue
Wel, geez, Bryan, it's just a damn shame that diseases like diabetes keep afflicting people!
Is the increase in diabetes directly associated with diet in this country?
No doubt.
But when the Feds make note of this and suggest changes to the regulatory environment, folks like you are the first to yell "Intrusive government!"
Which way do you want to have it?
Yes, I yell "intrusive government". I certainly wasn't actually agreeing with the assertion that government is responsible for fixing people's bad decisions.
| 838 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:13:50pm |
re: #823 albusteve
you never asked why I am conservative, if you did, show me...as far as nuance, I don't need to try and figure out what you questions are...here at LGF it's best just to be direct, drop the pretense and the bullshit...I did not say these supposed questions of yours were silly or inflammatory, that's something you made up...posting is not your strong suit, I suggest you lurk for some weeks and come back...
It's not going to work. I have every right to state my opinions, just like you. Your score means nothing to me. Plus, it might just be that I have lurked here for longer than you can imagine.
The fact that you passed up the obvious "i provide charity through my church" (a good argument) in favor of the high school cafeteria "you cant eat at the cool kids table" gambit says more than I can.
We have a different point of view, and I am willing to engage you in discussing the merits of a view point. But, I am not going to participate in this clique mentality.
| 839 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:13:51pm |
| 840 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:14:56pm |
re: #829 austin_blue
Well, thank the gods that private insurance is clear as the driven snow! I am sure that military veterans who have been wounded in the TWAT or seek help for PTSD will be reassured that, despite the fact that they will be, for all time, uninsurable by private insurance, that our country will not provide them health care.
Sweet!
Your talking points don't impress me. You are too deep into partisan agenda to look at the issue honestly.
| 841 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:14:56pm |
re: #834 Sharmuta
As tasty as many sodas are- they're closer to evil than delicious.
The increasing taxes on cigs played a role in my cutting down and quitting. MAYBE this works the same way with HFCS drinks.
| 842 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:15:21pm |
re: #779 Dan G.
Final question for the night. Why do you use overhead as the basis for comparison versus the bottom line (i.e. whether more comes in than goes out)?
Efficiency of the delivery of service. Dollars vs. the care provided.
| 843 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:15:35pm |
re: #832 recusancy
"Healthcare reform" has become an extremely vague description for a series of proposals whose only commonality is changing the system at present. It can be anywhere from cost-efficiency measures to the implementation of a whole new system.
| 844 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:15:56pm |
re: #834 Sharmuta
You did not just make up those numbers and try to push them off on me, did you?
While a Big Mac may be junk food, there is still nutritional value in the damned thing. Please tell me the nutritional value of a Mountain Dew. There is none. Soda is bad for you. It doesn't provide your body with anything it needs, and in fact it robs your body of things you do need. As tasty as many sodas are- they're closer to evil than delicious.
closer to evil than delicious would make a great rotating title sez I.
| 845 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:15:58pm |
re: #836 sngnsgt
Slam millions of patients into my Neuro's office and tell me how I'm not different. The wait I already sit for is long enough, where are all the doctors going to come from for all of these new patients?
Ahh.. You're just worried about others getting the same help you have. Worried it may get crowded if someone with a problem similar to you came to the doctors office for help rather then wind up homeless on the street.
| 846 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:16:47pm |
re: #834 Sharmuta
You did not just make up those numbers and try to push them off on me, did you?
While a Big Mac may be junk food, there is still nutritional value in the damned thing. Please tell me the nutritional value of a Mountain Dew. There is none. Soda is bad for you. It doesn't provide your body with anything it needs, and in fact it robs your body of things you do need. As tasty as many sodas are- they're closer to evil than delicious.
No, I did not make up those numbers.
Soda's are about 90% water. Water helps to keep you hydrated. Calories are fuel. How much sugar is in a glass of milk?
| 847 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:16:47pm |
re: #808 rollwave87
interesting that our congressman here in NOLA was the only republican to vote yes...he only won because of the whole dollar bill jefferson 'cash in the freezer' incident, and no one really is giving him a chance to win re-election next time...but I guess he at least wants to have a chance, so he went along with what it is undoubtable a majority of the white liberal/black voters in this district would've wanted. it's definitely not going to win him any points with the national GOP. or with the louisiana state GOP/our creepy theocratic governor jindal of the 'family research council' party...so he's definitely going to face a tough battle next year.
but he (Cao) will have my support if Im still down here...not even because Im all that enthusiastic about the health care bill (although on the whole tho, it probably will turn out to be a good thing it passed), but mainly because the corrupt acorn dems down here as well as the theocratic repubs will likely both oppose him now.
sorry. that was kind of a rambling analaysis. but i just got back from seeing that paranormal activity movie and im still kind like 'whaaat is going on...'
Greenie, '78
| 848 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:17:18pm |
re: #829 austin_blue
Well, thank the gods that private insurance is clear as the driven snow! I am sure that military veterans who have been wounded in the TWAT
"...the TWAT" is that anything like a "PIN number"?
| 849 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:17:23pm |
re: #843 laZardo
"Healthcare reform" has become an extremely vague description for a series of proposals whose only commonality is changing the system at present. It can be anywhere from cost-efficiency measures to the implementation of a whole new system.
It is an Orwellian term whose real meaning is more regulation, more government. Of course it always proposes solutions to problems real, imagined or blown out of proportion.
| 850 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:17:55pm |
re: #813 Existential_Donuts
I'm not sure it's possible to distinguish between the two. People will find a way to take advantage of the system, whether its a social system or a financial system, whatever. The price for this sort of thing is a certain level of abuse. Many people here are seriously against that.
I guess I am. I've heard ridiculous rates of government dependence in some European countries. Can't find the references right now, but in some cases the rate of dependence becomes dangerously close to more people mooching off the state than there are productive members of society.
| 851 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:18:03pm |
re: #835 Dark_Falcon
You're right about that. From what I am given to understand, eating standards on your side of the Big Pond have gone down the same way that ours have, despite the NHS.
I suspect that one side inherited it from the other for some reason.
/ o:
| 852 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:18:31pm |
re: #845 recusancy
Ahh.. You're just worried about others getting the same help you have. Worried it may get crowded if someone with a problem similar to you came to the doctors office for help rather then wind up homeless on the street.
I've had Epilepsy for more than 15 years and want to get my Epilepsy under control. I haven't been able to work for years, I'd rather work and have private insurance than something run by the government.
| 853 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:19:10pm |
re: #838 Existential_Donuts
It's not going to work. I have every right to state my opinions, just like you. Your score means nothing to me. Plus, it might just be that I have lurked here for longer than you can imagine.
The fact that you passed up the obvious "i provide charity through my church" (a good argument) in favor of the high school cafeteria "you cant eat at the cool kids table" gambit says more than I can.
We have a different point of view, and I am willing to engage you in discussing the merits of a view point. But, I am not going to participate in this clique mentality.
stop the whining and ask me whatever you want...review your own posts, I have not passed on anything...I don't consider your oblique, backdoor wordiness as questions...cut the bullshit
| 854 |
TheQuis Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:19:14pm |
re: #708 tradewind
Only if you're lucky.
I am still having problems with getting mail delivered to the wrong address after several months of filing inquiries. And a year or so ago, we got a nice soggy bundle from the post office with a form letter notice that our mail had been kept as evidence in a postal theft case, but out of the kindness of their hearts, they were delivering it now! Mostly fliers and old ads. Opened personal correspondence, torn, some bills that were barely legible inside water-stained envelopes. Walking into our local post office, you see six windows, but only two are open, staffed by people who act as if you are intruding on their lunch hour. On the plus side, the man who delivers the mail is very pleasant...
Forty-four cents? Stand by...not for long. It's really getting hard to keep up with the correct rates.
You're the exception, not the rule.
| 855 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:19:35pm |
re: #840 Bagua
Your talking points don't impress me. You are too deep into partisan agenda to look at the issue honestly.
Well that certainly beats making specific points of discussion! Well played! You are on Beck's team!
| 856 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:19:55pm |
re: #846 Racer X
No, I did not make up those numbers.
Soda's are about 90% water. Water helps to keep you hydrated. Calories are fuel. How much sugar is in a glass of milk?
The good news: no discussions have taken place on adding taxes to water or milk...only HFCS-laden beverages.
| 857 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:20:22pm |
| 858 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:20:43pm |
re: #846 Racer X
No, I did not make up those numbers.
Soda's are about 90% water. Water helps to keep you hydrated. Calories are fuel. How much sugar is in a glass of milk?
Only because I loves yeh am I not going to ding down this completely bogus comment. It's carbonated water, and that's bad for you, not to mention all the other crap in there. And no- sodas do not keep you hydrated, they dehydrate. There is also a huge difference in the sugars found in milk and high fructose corn syrup.
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone to give up sodas, but if you look into them more and at how unhealthy they really are for you- you might give them up on your own.
| 859 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:21:33pm |
re: #857 austin_blue
Total War Against Terror
Ah. I'm unfamiliar with that term. My apologies for the snark.
| 860 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:21:41pm |
re: #850 BryanS
I guess I am. I've heard ridiculous rates of government dependence in some European countries. Can't find the references right now, but in some cases the rate of dependence becomes dangerously close to more people mooching off the state than there are productive members of society.
It seems clear that this bothers many conservative minded people. I can totally understand that. "Bothered" would barely describe the Bush years from my point of view. The truth seems to be that health care IS all the terrible things people are talking about. But many people feel like that is the price for helping people. Another thing that boils down to point of view.
| 861 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:21:46pm |
re: #816 recusancy
You're right. It's tough to distinguish. What do you think of poster sngnsgt who I was replying to?
Sounds like he or she had the attitude that they would rather be working than receiving subsidy. I couldn't say that I could judge him/her as I'm in no position to do so.
| 862 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:23:27pm |
re: #818 austin_blue
Why?
Why shouldn't we have medicare/medicaid for all? If that is your question, it's pretty easy to answer why not. Single payer government run programs would take away individual choice, would result in rationing based on political policies, and would crush innovation within the field of medicine.
| 863 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:24:27pm |
re: #861 BryanS
That's exactly it, I'd rather not have the government involved in my health care one way or the other.
| 864 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:24:53pm |
| 865 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:25:47pm |
re: #862 BryanS
Why shouldn't we have medicare/medicaid for all? If that is your question, it's pretty easy to answer why not. Single payer government run programs would take away individual choice, would result in rationing based on political policies, and would crush innovation within the field of medicine.
Highlighted my main reason for my hesitation to support a universal healthcare system in the United States. While it would be a nice thing to have, the political machines in place in many parts of the country would find a way to abuse it and deflect opportunities to reform it through the "Do You Want Jones Back!?" method.
| 866 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:25:57pm |
re: #855 austin_blue
Well that certainly beats making specific points of discussion! Well played! You are on Beck's team!
You misunderstand, I am saying you are on Olberman's team. Your talking points are not "specific points of discussion".
| 868 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:27:09pm |
re: #860 Existential_Donuts
It seems clear that this bothers many conservative minded people. I can totally understand that. "Bothered" would barely describe the Bush years from my point of view. The truth seems to be that health care IS all the terrible things people are talking about. But many people feel like that is the price for helping people. Another thing that boils down to point of view.
are you trying to say that conservatives are not charitable, and don't care about suffering?..."bothered" describing the Bush years?...what the hell are you talking about
| 869 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:27:28pm |
| 870 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:27:28pm |
re: #863 sngnsgt
That's exactly it, I'd rather not have the government involved in my health care one way or the other.
But you do. They don't force it on you. But there is a safety net in America and you're in a situation where you have no choice but to use it. If it wasn't available to you what would you do? Do you not think that it's hypocritical to be against the very program that has helped you maybe even saved you?
| 871 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:28:17pm |
re: #856 bratwurst
The good news: no discussions have taken place on adding taxes to water or milk...only HFCS-laden beverages.
Dairy industry would fight tooth and nail any taxes on milk. The Ag lobby is pretty hard core. I'm surprised there hasn't been more push back from them on HFCS-laden beverage taxes.
| 872 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:28:17pm |
re: #864 Racer X
I hear you, but there is a lot of misconception about soft drinks.
Nothing wrong with them once and a while...like ice cream or any other sugary treat. Having said that, I don't get my smoking facts from Philip Morris and I am not going to be getting my facts about HFCS from the beverage industry and their astroturf group.
| 873 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:28:34pm |
re: #864 Racer X
I hear you, but there is a lot of misconception about soft drinks.
Among the "coalition members" (cherrypicked, I know, but...):
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. Consolidated
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. High Country
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. United, Inc.
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. of Fort Wayne, IN
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. of Minden, Inc.
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. of Northern New England
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. of Winona, MN
Coca-Cola Bottling Works, Inc.
Coca-Cola Company, The
Coca-Cola Enterprises, Inc.
7-Eleven, Inc.
Pepsi Bottling Group
Pepsi Bottling Ventures
Pepsi Northwest Beverages
PepsiAmericas, Inc.
PepsiCo, Inc.
Pepsi-Cola & National Brand Beverages
Pepsi-Cola of Florence, LLC
Pepsi-Cola of Rochester, MN
Pepsi-Cola Bottlers Association
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Atmore
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Central VA
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Hastings
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Hickory, NC
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of LaCrosse
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Logansport
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of New York
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Pipestone, MN
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Roxboro, NC
Pepsi-Cola Decatur, LLC
Pepsi-Cola Dr Pepper Bottling Co.
Pepsi-Cola of Northeast Wisconsin
Pepsi-Cola of Topeka
| 874 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:29:00pm |
re: #864 Racer X
I hear you, but there is a lot of misconception about soft drinks.
You have GOT to be kidding me! Did you read who their "coalition members" are? I'm sure Coke and Pepsi and McDonald's will tell me the truth about how their food and beverages are perfectly fine.
Just like Phillip Morris did with their product.
| 875 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:29:04pm |
re: #871 BryanS
Dairy industry would fight tooth and nail any taxes on milk. The Ag lobby is pretty hard core. I'm surprised there hasn't been more push back from them on HFCS-laden beverage taxes.
There is push back... Haven't you seen the soda tax commercials.
| 877 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:29:38pm |
re: #873 Bloodnok
Among the "coalition members" (cherrypicked, I know, but...):
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. Consolidated
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. High Country
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. United, Inc.
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. of Fort Wayne, IN
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. of Minden, Inc.
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. of Northern New England
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. of Winona, MN
Coca-Cola Bottling Works, Inc.
Coca-Cola Company, The
Coca-Cola Enterprises, Inc.
7-Eleven, Inc.
Pepsi Bottling Group
Pepsi Bottling Ventures
Pepsi Northwest Beverages
PepsiAmericas, Inc.
PepsiCo, Inc.
Pepsi-Cola & National Brand Beverages
Pepsi-Cola of Florence, LLC
Pepsi-Cola of Rochester, MN
Pepsi-Cola Bottlers Association
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Atmore
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Central VA
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Hastings
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Hickory, NC
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of LaCrosse
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Logansport
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of New York
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Pipestone, MN
Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Roxboro, NC
Pepsi-Cola Decatur, LLC
Pepsi-Cola Dr Pepper Bottling Co.
Pepsi-Cola of Northeast Wisconsin
Pepsi-Cola of Topeka
Now that's what I call bipartisanship! :D
| 878 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:29:44pm |
re: #853 albusteve
stop the whining and ask me whatever you want...review your own posts, I have not passed on anything...I don't consider your oblique, backdoor wordiness as questions...cut the bullshit
I don't think I can be more clear. From your point of view: If someone falls on hard times because of stupid mistakes, that person is pretty much on their own. Whether they rise or fall is out of your hands, only the strong survive. To me, this seems like an a basic question. I added more. I asked whether the suffering of that family is okay with you. Is it? If I need to be more direct, please let me know. Obsequiousness is certainly a character flaw of mine.
| 879 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:31:39pm |
re: #868 albusteve
are you trying to say that conservatives are not charitable, and don't care about suffering?..."bothered" describing the Bush years?...what the hell are you talking about
I know many charitable conservatives. But to me, that seems like more of a character issue than a political one. I was upset that George Bush was president, it was a long 8 years. I have a feeling you know the feeling.
| 880 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:31:57pm |
re: #871 BryanS
Dairy industry would fight tooth and nail any taxes on milk. The Ag lobby is pretty hard core. I'm surprised there hasn't been more push back from them on HFCS-laden beverage taxes.
BIG MILK IS RIPPING US OFF!
/obligatory.
| 881 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:32:28pm |
re: #877 laZardo
Now that's what I call bipartisanship! :D
Water, sugars, flavorings, and cheap labor. Soft drinks are basically junk made by multi-national corporations. It's not even conservative. A true conservative soft drink is made at a soda stand by hand.
//
| 882 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:32:50pm |
re: #862 BryanS
Why shouldn't we have medicare/medicaid for all? If that is your question, it's pretty easy to answer why not. Single payer government run programs would take away individual choice, would result in rationing based on political policies, and would crush innovation within the field of medicine.
Private insurance is always available in any country that has single payer.
| 883 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:34:02pm |
re: #881 Gus 802
Water, sugars, flavorings, and cheap labor. Soft drinks are basically junk made by multi-national corporations. It's not even conservative. A true conservative soft drink is made at a soda stand by hand.
//
If you really wanted to be conservative we could go back to the founding recipe of coke and make that 'coca' in coca-cola mean something.
| 884 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:34:07pm |
re: #880 laZardo
BIG MILK IS RIPPING US OFF!
/obligatory.
It shouldn't be sarc tagged. Government dairy subsidies and controls often do end up ripping us off and members of both parties support it.
| 885 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:34:47pm |
re: #882 austin_blue
Private insurance is always available in any country that has single payer.
Checking to clear up something here:
Do you mean 1) Privately-run clinics working on the national plan and/or 2) "Top-up" insurance mainly for operations considered 'unnecessary' e.g. cosmetic plastic surgery/augmentation?
| 886 |
sngnsgt Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:35:03pm |
re: #870 recusancy
But you do. They don't force it on you. But there is a safety net in America and you're in a situation where you have no choice but to use it. If it wasn't available to you what would you do? Do you not think that it's hypocritical to be against the very program that has helped you maybe even saved you?
Does that mean every month I'm going to get more money from Disability every month because I have "free healthcare" now? I think not.
| 887 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:35:23pm |
re: #883 recusancy
If you really wanted to be conservative we could go back to the founding recipe of coke and make that 'coca' in coca-cola mean something.
Now you're talking! I think we could charge significantly more than 5 cents a can extra for that.
| 888 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:35:36pm |
re: #860 Existential_Donuts
It seems clear that this bothers many conservative minded people. I can totally understand that. "Bothered" would barely describe the Bush years from my point of view. The truth seems to be that health care IS all the terrible things people are talking about. But many people feel like that is the price for helping people. Another thing that boils down to point of view.
Heh. I guess we all get to trade who's bothered form time to time :)
The promise of capitalism is that everyone benefits even when the few benefit extremely. Just ask the Chinese if income disparity is better than uniform poverty and squalor. Europeans have been wasting away in a state of inebriated government largess for the past couple decades. Even after our burst bubble, our standard of living continues to surpass theirs.
Now the counter argument to that claim is that health care for all is a standard of living marker that we don't match. But the truth is, Americans choose other thing than health insurance to spend their money on. Food, clothing, and electronics, and just about everything else costs less in the US than in European countries. Americans could choose to spend more on health care and forgo other things that are luxuries to Europeans, but we don't.
| 889 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:36:04pm |
re: #866 Bagua
You misunderstand, I am saying you are on Olberman's team. Your talking points are not "specific points of discussion".
I am not and never have been on "Olberman's team". I am a free agent living in Austin. My opinions are my own.
You have made no points that I can discuss.
| 890 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:36:16pm |
“…taxing people into choices is fraught with challenges and hazards.” – Dr. David Katz, director of medical studies in public health at Yale University, ABCNews.com, 9/17/09
“If your goal is to reduce obesity, this won’t work, because most people won’t stop drinking soda. You can’t change people’s taste buds.” – Richard Williams, managing director of the regulatory studies program and government accountability project at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, ABCNews.com, 9/17/09
“I have never seen it work where a government tells people what to eat and what to drink. If it worked, the Soviet Union would still be around.” – Muhtar Kent, Bloomberg Today, 9/14/09
“I’ve heard of sin taxes, but it’s a sad day when drinking soda is a sin.” – Rep. Hensarling (R-TX), on Fox News “Your world with Neil Cavuto,” 9/8/09
“There’s no more personal choice than how Americans choose to spend their hard-earned money and then the choices they make on the foods and beverages they consume. When the government tells people what foods and beverages they should eat or drink, that crosses a line for many people.” – Kevin Keane, Business Wire, 9/8/09
“Taxes only work so far to get people to change behavior.” – Christopher Boyce, VirginHealthMiles CEO, Fox News Business, 9/1/09
| 891 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:36:17pm |
re: #878 Existential_Donuts
I don't think I can be more clear. From your point of view: If someone falls on hard times because of stupid mistakes, that person is pretty much on their own. Whether they rise or fall is out of your hands, only the strong survive. To me, this seems like an a basic question. I added more. I asked whether the suffering of that family is okay with you. Is it? If I need to be more direct, please let me know. Obsequiousness is certainly a character flaw of mine.
I didn't say that...you did for some reason...I didn't condone suffering, I don't know why you made that up...you have yet to ask me how much money I give away and to whom...I really don't see the whole thrust of your posts, other than presuming stuff you shouldn't
| 892 |
Gus Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:36:23pm |
re: #883 recusancy
If you really wanted to be conservative we could go back to the founding recipe of coke and make that 'coca' in coca-cola mean something.
Damn stuff will keep you up all night long.
We now return all control to those that know all the answers and the serial down-dinging tag team.
//
| 893 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:36:52pm |
re: #888 BryanS
Heh. I guess we all get to trade who's bothered form time to time :)
The promise of capitalism is that everyone benefits even when the few benefit extremely. Just ask the Chinese if income disparity is better than uniform poverty and squalor. Europeans have been wasting away in a state of inebriated government largess for the past couple decades. Even after our burst bubble, our standard of living continues to surpass theirs.
Now the counter argument to that claim is that health care for all is a standard of living marker that we don't match. But the truth is, Americans choose other thing than health insurance to spend their money on. Food, clothing, and electronics, and just about everything else costs less in the US than in European countries. Americans could choose to spend more on health care and forgo other things that are luxuries to Europeans, but we don't.
Good point. If only...
| 894 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:37:07pm |
re: #882 austin_blue
That is not true, Austin. In Canada, until very recently, it was illegal to offer private insurance. It was only made lawful after a court case in Quebec highlighted the glaring failures of the government system. It is still government only in some parts of that country.
| 895 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:37:19pm |
re: #890 Racer X
And I don't disagree with any of that. Doesn't change the fact that sodas are not good for you.
| 896 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:37:41pm |
re: #875 recusancy
There is push back... Haven't you seen the soda tax commercials.
Can't say that I watch much TV.
| 897 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:37:51pm |
re: #874 Sharmuta
Just like Phillip Morris did with their product.
Really? Drinking a Pepsi is just like smoking?
/I need to get me a tin foil straw.
| 898 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:38:26pm |
re: #890 Racer X
Taxes played a role in getting me to stop smoking. That is a fact.
| 899 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:38:34pm |
re: #885 laZardo
Checking to clear up something here:
Do you mean 1) Privately-run clinics working on the national plan and/or 2) "Top-up" insurance mainly for operations considered 'unnecessary' e.g. cosmetic plastic surgery/augmentation?
Private insurance exists in every country that has single payer if a citizen chooses to pay the higher cost. Can I make that statement any simpler? Options are always available.
| 901 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:38:42pm |
re: #846 Racer X
No, I did not make up those numbers.
Soda's are about 90% water. Water helps to keep you hydrated. Calories are fuel. How much sugar is in a glass of milk?
Perhaps 12 grams in milk, but it's a different sugar than that in soda.
In a can of soda:
Check it out
| 902 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:39:39pm |
re: #882 austin_blue
Private insurance is always available in any country that has single payer.
In Canada? Really? My understanding is that it is not legal to sell medical services in Canada except through the single payer system. That is why Canadians go to the US for private care when they are unhappy with what they get back home.
| 903 |
KingKenrod Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:39:56pm |
There has always been a safety net in the US, even before people started thinking only govt could provide one. Family, community, private charity, and religious organizations all provided a safety net to the elderly, sick, and less fortunate.
As the public safety net expanded, the private safety net has weakened.
Not just because of money and resources (certainly true), but because the reliance on a private safety net enforced good citizenship and behavior from those who knew they would someday rely on it.
Now everyone knows they can be a lazy asshole and still get the same public benefit as the hard-working, model citizen family man or woman. In fact, the hard-working citizen is the sucker in the equation.
| 904 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:40:17pm |
re: #900 Sharmuta
You're so much smarter than that.
Not today. I feel dumberer today for some reason.
| 905 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:40:21pm |
re: #895 Sharmuta
And I don't disagree with any of that. Doesn't change the fact that sodas are not good for you.
I have an abnormal aversion to soda pop...I'm absolutely certain that stuff will kill you...nobody in my entire extended family will touch it...beer is okay on occasion tho
| 906 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:40:34pm |
re: #894 Dark_Falcon
That is not true, Austin. In Canada, until very recently, it was illegal to offer private insurance. It was only made lawful after a court case in Quebec highlighted the glaring failures of the government system. It is still government only in some parts of that country.
"Until recently" being the operative statement.
| 907 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:41:20pm |
re: #894 Dark_Falcon
That is not true, Austin. In Canada, until very recently, it was illegal to offer private insurance. It was only made lawful after a court case in Quebec highlighted the glaring failures of the government system. It is still government only in some parts of that country.
I am told that the 'failure' in Canada's healthcare system lies primarily in a lack of doctors and medical equipment to keep up with the patientry (to make up a word.)
| 908 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:41:28pm |
re: #897 Racer X
Really? Drinking a Pepsi is just like smoking?
/I need to get me a tin foil straw.
you do...that's not what she said...you know better
| 909 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:41:44pm |
re: #889 austin_blue
I am not and never have been on "Olberman's team". I am a free agent living in Austin. My opinions are my own.
You have made no points that I can discuss.
And I am not and never have been on Beck's team, you initiated that line of "reasoning".
My point is that your arguments sound like talking points, blame everything on the Republicans, Bush, lack of regulation, etc. etc ad nauseum . Nothing to discuss really, unless you want to drop the propaganda mission.
| 910 |
KingKenrod Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:43:42pm |
The problem with single-payer is not lack of insurance options, it's the way govt screws the supply and demand equation, particularly specialist care. Normally, increased demand would push prices up, thus giving an incentive to increase supply. With single payer this doesn't happen, because an increase in prices means the taxpayer has to pay more, so the govt doesn't allow prices to increase.
| 911 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:43:52pm |
re: #906 austin_blue
"Until recently" being the operative statement.
Like I said, it's still government-only in some places up there (I believe including British Columbia, though I am not certain). That said, the situation has changed for the better in recent years. Still, given the level of failure of government health care there, I have no desire to see it tried here.
| 912 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:44:28pm |
Sorry - I did not mean to get off on a tangent. My point was that sin taxes impact the poor harder. Cigarette taxes hit the poor harder. Yes it gets some people to quit.
Edumacation is better.
| 913 |
recusancy Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:44:55pm |
re: #903 KingKenrod
There has always been a safety net in the US, even before people started thinking only govt could provide one. Family, community, private charity, and religious organizations all provided a safety net to the elderly, sick, and less fortunate.
As the public safety net expanded, the private safety net has weakened.
Not just because of money and resources (certainly true), but because the reliance on a private safety net enforced good citizenship and behavior from those who knew they would someday rely on it.
Now everyone knows they can be a lazy asshole and still get the same public benefit as the hard-working, model citizen family man or woman. In fact, the hard-working citizen is the sucker in the equation.
Communities used to be a lot smaller and a lot less mobile, and therefore closer. So a local safety net was doable. Society has grown and changed and we need to change with it. I understand conservatism fights against that which is a good check on too much progression to fast but things will continue to move forward and become more complex and more complicated. Social entropy I guess you could say.
| 914 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:45:22pm |
re: #909 Bagua
And I am not and never have been on Beck's team, you initiated that line of "reasoning".
My point is that your arguments sound like talking points, blame everything on the Republicans, Bush, lack of regulation, etc. etc ad nauseum . Nothing to discuss really, unless you want to drop the propaganda mission.
OK, let's do that. What is your basic line of reasoning that not changing the status quo is the best way to deliver affordable health care to all of the citizens of this country?
| 915 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:46:10pm |
re: #904 Racer X
Not today. I feel dumberer today for some reason.
You should lay off the sodas. ;p
I would love to debate sin taxes as a principle, but I think we're trying to debate a couple of things rolled in together, and that's hard sometimes.
But this is an issue I've been dealing with for more than 10 years. I used to drink 6 or more cans of Coke a day, and now I drink maybe a few sodas a month. With everything else, it's all about moderation. So I will not mind a tiny tax on my sodas because I won't pay it often, but folks who drink them all day long- they're going to take a hit, and if that means they might drink a few less sodas- good.
| 916 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:46:16pm |
re: #907 laZardo
I am told that the 'failure' in Canada's healthcare system lies primarily in a lack of doctors and medical equipment to keep up with the patientry (to make up a word.)
The problem there is that government effectively caps doctor's incomes, which reduces the incentive to go into medicine. And the equipment shortages are common to government, which often tries to save money in the wrong ways. It's easier to cut the capital budget than try to reform dysfunctional practices within a government agency.
| 917 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:47:03pm |
re: #911 Dark_Falcon
Like I said, it's still government-only in some places up there (I believe including British Columbia, though I am not certain). That said, the situation has changed for the better in recent years. Still, given the level of failure of government health care there, I have no desire to see it tried here.
A problem being fixed, yes? Does that torpedo the health care bill here?
| 918 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:47:16pm |
re: #891 albusteve
I didn't say that...you did for some reason...I didn't condone suffering, I don't know why you made that up...you have yet to ask me how much money I give away and to whom...I really don't see the whole thrust of your posts, other than presuming stuff you shouldn't
Your original statement indicated that people on hard times are on their own. Yet now you seem reluctant to commit one way or another on the subject, for some reason. Is money how you measure your charity? Then by all means, how many dollars do you spend? I honestly will be impressed by any amount because I have 0 to give.
| 919 |
bratwurst Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:47:35pm |
re: #912 Racer X
Sorry - I did not mean to get off on a tangent. My point was that sin taxes impact the poor harder. Cigarette taxes hit the poor harder. Yes it gets some people to quit.
Edumacation is better.
The combination of education and taxes has reduced the number of smokers in this country. It is not unreasonable to assume the same combination can at least make some impact the obesity situation.
| 920 |
BryanS Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:47:54pm |
re: #910 KingKenrod
The problem with single-payer is not lack of insurance options, it's the way govt screws the supply and demand equation, particularly specialist care. Normally, increased demand would push prices up, thus giving an incentive to increase supply. With single payer this doesn't happen, because an increase in prices means the taxpayer has to pay more, so the govt doesn't allow prices to increase.
Yes. The basics of economic--supply versus demand--seem not to impact the left's thinking at all. The government can set the price as low as it wants, but the net effect will be to reduce supply. The basic needs for living in the Soviet system were always cheaper than the west--there just never was any supply of those basics needs.
What will happen when the just passed House plan cuts medicare reimbursements to doctors by 20%? More doctors will simply stop providing the services.
| 921 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:48:16pm |
re: #912 Racer X
Sorry - I did not mean to get off on a tangent. My point was that sin taxes impact the poor harder. Cigarette taxes hit the poor harder. Yes it gets some people to quit.
Edumacation is better.
it's a statistic...if you want to make a social issue out of it you will lose on merrit...like what are you doing smoking tobacco and drinking vodka while on wellfare?
| 922 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:48:57pm |
re: #915 Sharmuta
I'm with ya on that.
I rarely drink soda. I read somewhere recently that the average consumption of soft drinks has fallen yet obesity continues to rise. It's all about calories in vs. calories burned.
| 923 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:49:44pm |
re: #922 Racer X
Don't you love it when you and I go at it, and still get a happy ending?
| 924 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:50:21pm |
re: #923 Sharmuta
Don't you love it when you and I go at it, and still get a happy ending?
I know I do. ;D
| 925 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:51:46pm |
re: #912 Racer X
Edumacation is better.
Speaking of Bushisms:
George W. Bush Secretly Visits Fort Hood Victims
Note how he sought to talk to the wounded, not get media attention. Whatever else you think of him, let it never be said that George W. Bush doesn't care about those whom he commanded.
| 926 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:52:25pm |
I'm going to smoke a cancer stick while Bagua replies to my #914.
BBIAB
| 927 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:54:27pm |
re: #923 Sharmuta
Don't you love it when you and I go at it, and still get a happy ending?
*smokes a cig*
Yes, yes i do!
| 928 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:55:06pm |
re: #917 austin_blue
A problem being fixed, yes? Does that torpedo the health care bill here?
In my eyes it does, austin. It appears that our differences mostly come down to the public option. To reduce things further would be to say that they come down to a difference in our trust in government. I might sum that last issue up with a quote from Tommy Lee Jones in Under Siege: "There's one difference between us. You have faith... I don't."
| 929 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:55:11pm |
re: #918 Existential_Donuts
Your original statement indicated that people on hard times are on their own. Yet now you seem reluctant to commit one way or another on the subject, for some reason. Is money how you measure your charity? Then by all means, how many dollars do you spend? I honestly will be impressed by any amount because I have 0 to give.
you can interpret my original statement anyway you want...I am not reluctant to commit myself...you don't seem to grasp that you have not asked me any questions and you are becoming comical...yes, money given wisely is a measure of charity and how many dollars I give is none of your business and why would you even ask such a thing?...it is far beyond what most would consider a fair share, but that's just subjective bullshit, right?
| 930 |
rollwave87 Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:56:21pm |
re: #847 austin_blue
greenie as in newman (high school) or tulane? either way...sweet.
| 931 |
Existential_Donuts Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:56:41pm |
re: #929 albusteve
you can interpret my original statement anyway you want...I am not reluctant to commit myself...you don't seem to grasp that you have not asked me any questions and you are becoming comical...yes, money given wisely is a measure of charity and how many dollars I give is none of your business and why would you even ask such a thing?...it is far beyond what most would consider a fair share, but that's just subjective bullshit, right?
We both agree that I am full of subjective bullshit. Will you please tell me whether it is okay with you that a family suffers because of a series of bad mistakes/
| 932 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:57:06pm |
re: #914 austin_blue
OK, let's do that. What is your basic line of reasoning that not changing the status quo is the best way to deliver affordable health care to all of the citizens of this country?
That is not my "basic line or reasoning" even remotely.
Regarding both your financial fraud line and the health care issue, my objective would be to step up anti-fraud enforcement in a way that is measurably effective. I reduce the needless regulatory nightmare that leads to increased costs without effective results and focus on targeting fraud and abuse.
Ditto for health care. My objective would not be to deliver affordable health care to the citizens of this country, that would be an invitation for more fraud and waste. My objective would be to eliminate fraud and waste which would directly reduce the cost of health care for everyone.
| 934 |
Kruk Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:03:48am |
re: #843 laZardo
"Healthcare reform" has become an extremely vague description for a series of proposals whose only commonality is changing the system at present. It can be anywhere from cost-efficiency measures to the implementation of a whole new system.
This glossary of different terms used to describe health care systems seems quite good. It's a newspaper article rather than a peer reviewed source, though.
[Link: economix.blogs.nytimes.com...]
| 935 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:07:11am |
re: #740 bratwurst
You're killing me already, Birdman. Been out drinking craft beers?
I had a couple of Bridgeport Ebenezer winter ales at a housewarming party! But that was hours ago, I'm not trashed or anything ;-)
| 936 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:08:09am |
re: #741 borgcube
I really did. I swear. Even my wife didn't believe me at first when I told her.
If you are telling the truth, that's a really shitty move. Taking it out on the pizza guy?
| 937 |
austin_blue Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:11:32am |
re: #928 Dark_Falcon
In my eyes it does, austin. It appears that our differences mostly come down to the public option. To reduce things further would be to say that they come down to a difference in our trust in government. I might sum that last issue up with a quote from Tommy Lee Jones in Under Siege: "There's one difference between us. You have faith... I don't."
Fair enough. I have faith, my friend.
I have seen what a disastrously unregulated banking and investment sector has done to this economy in our country. I have seen how common working people have been impacted by financial "instruments" that were toxic at their core. I have seen how the folks at the top of the Ponzi scheme have made out like bandits and still keep their jobs.
I am also hugely disappointed by the response of this government. But I understand that if the Playaz in this disaster were to be properly spanked, it might result in a total meltdown of our financial system.
I am enraged by this. But I feel I must keep my powder dry.
Frustrating? Oh, hell yes.
| 938 |
austin_blue Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:14:38am |
re: #930 rollwave87
greenie as in newman (high school) or tulane? either way...sweet.
Tulane. Lived in NO for ten years. Chris Rose is a best bud and he got screwed on the Pulitzer.
| 939 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:18:47am |
re: #937 austin_blue
Fair enough. I have faith, my friend.
I have seen what a disastrously unregulated banking and investment sector has done to this economy in our country. I have seen how common working people have been impacted by financial "instruments" that were toxic at their core. I have seen how the folks at the top of the Ponzi scheme have made out like bandits and still keep their jobs.
I am also hugely disappointed by the response of this government. But I understand that if the Playaz in this disaster were to be properly spanked, it might result in a total meltdown of our financial system.
I am enraged by this. But I feel I must keep my powder dry.
Frustrating? Oh, hell yes.
Frustration can be useful. Take that anger and turn it into determination that you'll keep your eyes open the next time a bubble starts to form. You might not be able to keep it from forming, but could well be able to reduce the effects of its collapse.
| 940 |
Bagua Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:20:29am |
re: #937 austin_blue
Fair enough. I have faith, my friend.
I have seen what a disastrously unregulated banking and investment sector has done to this economy in our country. I have seen how common working people have been impacted by financial "instruments" that were toxic at their core.
Blaming these frauds on 'unregulated banking and investment" is a left wing talking point. There is a great deal of regulations in place, they are enforced incompetently by an incompetent enforcers.
"Toxic" is another propaganda word, what was "toxic' at their core was the faulty mortgage loans that were implicitly guaranteed by the government. Beyond that it was exactly because of regulation, not despite it, that those assets became toxic.
I have seen how the folks at the top of the Ponzi scheme have made out like bandits and still keep their jobs.
Bull. Those ponzi schemes that the government enforcers stumble on due result in prison for those on top, not job security.
I am also hugely disappointed by the response of this government. But I understand that if the Playaz in this disaster were to be properly spanked, it might result in a total meltdown of our financial system.
I am enraged by this. But I feel I must keep my powder dry.
Frustrating? Oh, hell yes.
Anger and high emotion does not equal understanding. Simply lashing out at scapegoats, giving more power to incompetant regulators and enforcers, and creating new problems from flawed regulations do nothing to help the situation.
| 941 |
austin_blue Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:30:21am |
re: #932 Bagua
That is not my "basic line or reasoning" even remotely.
Regarding both your financial fraud line and the health care issue, my objective would be to step up anti-fraud enforcement in a way that is measurably effective. I reduce the needless regulatory nightmare that leads to increased costs without effective results and focus on targeting fraud and abuse.
Ditto for health care. My objective would not be to deliver affordable health care to the citizens of this country, that would be an invitation for more fraud and waste. My objective would be to eliminate fraud and waste which would directly reduce the cost of health care for everyone.
Well, that's an insane position. Medicare alone is $400 billion dollars. Let's say fraud is 1% or 4$ billion. The enforcement oversight is a pittance. As to the point of your second sentence it's blabidablabidablabida. What the hell does that mean?
Now to your second paragraph, which reaches new heights of inanity.
You don't want to deliver affordable health care to the citizens of this country because of the possibility of a fractional level of waste, fraud, and abuse, despite the fact that no controls have been put in place?
Okey dokey, then! Let us all fear change!
| 942 |
austin_blue Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:34:03am |
re: #940 Bagua
Anger and high emotion does not equal understanding. Simply lashing out at scapegoats, giving more power to incompetant regulators and enforcers, and creating new problems from flawed regulations do nothing to help the situation.
We are going to obviously disagree. Please play nice.
| 943 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:38:23am |
re: #942 austin_blue
We are going to obviously disagree. Please play nice.
Goodnight, all. I'm too tired to argue my case effectively any longer. Good talk, though. This thread was intense, but everyone behaved themselves by-and-large. We had downdings, but no bannings or flounces. Congrats to the lizard army; This is how political debate should be done.
| 944 |
anubis_soundwave Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:40:47am |
re: #878 Existential_Donuts
That really is the truth, chief. We live in a society of individuals.
Albusteve's primary responsibility is to himself, and by extension, his family. This is the same situation for every able-bodied man and woman of sound mind in the United States. Anything beyond that is up to the free will of the individual.
I personally think I could do a better job paying for one or two (individuals, not 1-2 million) of the 40 million uninsured myself if we did away with publicly-funded sinkholes altogether: I'd have the money, and I'd be able to assist that person immediately--no government agency forms to fill out, no hoops for the hypothetical patient to jump through.
I was raised to help others in need if I have the power to do so--and if I am willing to do so, and I find it offensive that the government wants to force me to do so regardless of my ability and willingness.
At my job (which is in state government, by the way: government employees are ordinary--and overworked--human beings, not lazy slaargs with "no incentive to improve service") we run fundraisers (in the office) for United Way as well as for cancer and heart disease. In addition, we have food drives and bake sales. I have contributed to all of these--of my own free will. Sometimes there's an incentive, like "you can wear jeans to work on Friday versus business-casual"; sometimes, there's simply a need, and I do it--again, of my own volition.
This is with federal, state, Medicare, and FICA taken out; imagine how much more I could give if I could get my money back from FICA (Social Security tax).
Two links:
Adam Smith, and a personal (albeit rambling) analysis of my return on FICA investment/insurance/retirement monies as of 3/1/2005 (w/data from 2004).
| 945 |
Bagua Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:49:15am |
re: #941 austin_blue
Well, that's an insane position. Medicare alone is $400 billion dollars. Let's say fraud is 1% or 4$ billion. The enforcement oversight is a pittance. As to the point of your second sentence it's blabidablabidablabida. What the hell does that mean?
Which is why I simply dismiss your talking points, you don’t discuss, you throw a bunch of insults and memes and call that a discussion.
I’m not talking only about fraud in Medicare, though that government system is rife with problems, but rather system wide health care fraud and abuse which is massive is scale, certainly not a paltry 1% which is ridiculous.
In a broader sense I am also talking about the financial industry, in which the regulatory framework leads to ridiculous costs that are not justified by the results and do little to deter real fraud. But more so, the whole blind dance between the various governmental and quasi-governmental agencies that work without coordination and cause problems.
Now to your second paragraph, which reaches new heights of inanity.
Always with the insults Mr. Olberman when you have your talking points challenged you move into high gear
You don't want to deliver affordable health care to the citizens of this country because of the possibility of a fractional level of waste, fraud, and abuse, despite the fact that no controls have been put in place?
I don’t want to have socialized medicine however you choose to term it for a whole bookshelf a reasons, not the least of which the gross inefficiency of government in general and the demonstrable fact the US private health care is superior to the socialized health care is other large western nations.
Okey dokey, then! Let us all fear change!
Nokey dokey, what I fear is more government, higher taxation and the demise of the best health care system in the history of mankind.
| 946 |
Bagua Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:53:48am |
re: #942 austin_blue
We are going to obviously disagree. Please play nice.
That's rich coming from you!
Here's what you said to me:
...
Well, that's an insane position
...
Now to your second paragraph, which reaches new heights of inanity.
...
Your second sentence it's blabidablabidablabida
And you ask me to "play nice" ?
| 947 |
Oh no...Sand People! Sun, Nov 8, 2009 2:02:14am |
re: #944 anubis_soundwave
That really is the truth, chief. We live in a society of individuals.
Albusteve's primary responsibility is to himself, and by extension, his family. This is the same situation for every able-bodied man and woman of sound mind in the United States. Anything beyond that is up to the free will of the individual.
DING DING DING!
Thank you!
| 948 |
spiderx Sun, Nov 8, 2009 2:06:29am |
re: #912 Racer X
Sorry - I did not mean to get off on a tangent. My point was that sin taxes impact the poor harder. Cigarette taxes hit the poor harder. Yes it gets some people to quit.
Edumacation is better.
well since the poor do not pay income taxes surely they can pay sin taxes on cigarettes that go towards to offset the health costs such vices cost society.
| 949 |
SixDegrees Sun, Nov 8, 2009 3:27:03am |
I'll note that attempts to stop this bill ought to be easier in the Senate than in the House; frankly, I'm surprised by the narrow margin of passage it just received, as I was expecting at least a 20 point spread.
Defeat in the Senate, however, requires the GOP to behave like adults - to bring cogent arguments against the bill to the floor, rather than simply shouting "I OBJECT!" or refusing to even attend meetings on the legislation. It will also require the GOP to reach across the aisle and build what coalitions it can with those members of the majority who share GOP views on this particular issue, instead of circling the wagons around Glenn Beck and castigating each and every Democrat over trivialities or nothing at all.
I suspect that we'll see, instead, the Republicans once again taking their lead from the TPers and making fools of themselves with catcalls from the floor, irrational shrieking about death panels and other childish behavior that will work against them. But I would love to be disappointed in this expectation.
| 950 |
wiffersnapper Sun, Nov 8, 2009 3:32:01am |
Glad to know Pelosi was so proud of this bill she asked for a vote in the dead of night. Ugh.
| 951 |
Frogmarch Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:07:52am |
If the Republicans were smart they would ditch the "death panels" crap and the abortion crap and run in 2010 on reversing this thing.
But - as we know- the republicans aren't that smart. And in the conniving department - they don't hold a candle to the vicious, deceptive, manipulative, sneaky socialist democrats.
| 952 |
Frogmarch Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:12:08am |
re: #55 NJDhockeyfan
This bill will cost a little bit more than a dime.
CBO: New House Health Bill Spending Estimate, $3 Trillion over 10 Years
On the whole, those who are responsible, those who don't go out and buy electronics, video games and vacations - and instead budget and pay for health care insurance are now forced by our own government to cough up all the money needed to give health insurance to those who never wanted to set any money aside for their own health care.
If this were simply about extending health care to the poor -we could do that, and it wouldn't cost this much.
| 953 |
Wozza Matter? Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:33:08am |
about damntime.
the scope needs expanding and the language needs tidied up - it's a bad bill for a good cause, but better than no bill atall.
| 954 |
AtadOFF Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:35:58am |
Hope it works out better for you than it has up here in Canada.
| 955 |
FrogMarch Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:42:45am |
re: #55 NJDhockeyfan
This bill will cost a little bit more than a dime.
CBO: New House Health Bill Spending Estimate, $3 Trillion over 10 Years
But it won't raise the deficit by "one dime". Right. Those dimes will come out of our pockets.
| 956 |
gadlaw Sun, Nov 8, 2009 6:17:20am |
Awesomely good, I honestly thought that the Insurance Lobby had too many Congressmen by the balls for anything to pass, they lost 37 'Blue Dog' Dems, only gained 1 Republican. I didn't think that the people had 220 Representatives in the Congress to pass anything let alone health care but there you have it. I'm sure the insane rabble ginned up by their masters will increase their fury and when they lose will seamlessly merge over with the 2012 crowd and then after the world doesn't end in 2012 I expect a big surge in Bigfoot and UFO sightings. Hey maybe by that time we can get some Mental Health Care passed for those in that crowd who haven't offed themselves!
| 957 |
karmic_inquisitor Sun, Nov 8, 2009 6:44:39am |
A bunch of morons are about to discover things about inelastic demand and how profit seeking entities are more apt to develop cost controls than public / non-profit entities.
An expensive way to learn basic economics.
| 958 |
captdiggs Sun, Nov 8, 2009 7:16:28am |
Anyone really believe that each and every one of those that voted on this read every one of the nearly 2000 pages?
I don't.
| 959 |
jvic Sun, Nov 8, 2009 7:36:40am |
re: #949 SixDegrees
...Defeat in the Senate, however, requires the GOP to behave like adults - to bring cogent arguments against the bill to the floor, rather than simply shouting "I OBJECT!" or refusing to even attend meetings on the legislation...I suspect that we'll see, instead, the Republicans once again taking their lead from the TPers and making fools of themselves with catcalls from the floor, irrational shrieking about death panels and other childish behavior that will work against them. But I would love to be disappointed in this expectation.
So would I, but this is a sample of the "adult" opposition:
It is fair to say that never will a piece of legislation this sweeping (and damaging) have been passed over the opposition of so much of the electorate and on the votes of such a narrow ideological slice of the governing class. [Really? How about the WW2 draft? --jvic]
Just imagine what the "populist" opposition will be like.
| 960 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Nov 8, 2009 7:39:36am |
We're doomed! Doomed, I tell you! One of my conservo friends on Facebook is writing about how the "Constition" [sic] is under threat!
| 961 |
exelwood Sun, Nov 8, 2009 7:41:11am |
The funniest part will be when all the hipster left wingers figure out they're going to be standing in line with the rest of us waiting for third rate medical care. That and when the bed hair 20 somethings with the little square glasses start forking over 13% of their gross income for the health insurance they really, really believed would be paid for by the "government". :D
I know the liberal effete (so much more descriptive than liberal elite) believed that bad health care would only affect the masses but this bill will put everyone except government officials on a path to health care by bureaucrat.
Those guys might want to read the story of Lenin's useful idiots again.
| 962 |
jordash1212 Sun, Nov 8, 2009 8:53:34am |
re: #17 Fenway_Nation
Umm...doesn't the fact that they're voting on it in the middle of the night on the weekend kind of reek of desperation and urgency in and of itself?
No. It means the Republican party kept debating and debating and debating, as usual, without making any kind of suggestion as to what should be replaced in the bill. I keep hearing, "it's just not right" or "it's too hurried" or "this is too important not to get right." That's probably true and a good reason to reject any $1trillion proposal. Also knowing that Obama wants to show the American people the progress and "change" from all that "hope" we have. But beyond the protest from the right, what I do not hear is any kind of reconciliation or pragmatism that leads to a better health care system. As long as the GOP heads in this direction of extremism and lunacy, I suspect the democrats will control the presidency, house, and senate, and they will have free reign to force through whatever watered down and diluted bills they'd like. This is very dangerous.
| 963 |
FrogMarch Sun, Nov 8, 2009 9:19:24am |
So curl up by a fire with a fifth of whiskey and just dive in.But drink quickly. In the new world, your insurance choices will be tethered to decisions made by people with Orwellian titles ("1984" was only 268 pages!) like the "Health Choices Commissioner" or "Inspector General for the Health Choices Administration."
You will, of course, need to be plastered to buy Pelosi's fantastical proposition that 450,000 words of new regulations, rules, mandates, penalties, price controls, taxes and bureaucracy will have the transformative power to "provide affordable, quality health care for all Americans and reduce the growth in health care spending . . ."
It's going to take some time to deconstruct this lengthy masterpiece, but as you flip through the pages of the House bill, you will notice the word "regulation" appears 181 times. "Tax" is there 214 times. "Fees," 103 times. As we all know, nothing says "affordability" like higher taxes and fees.
The word "shall" - as in "must" or "required to" - appears over 3,000 times. The word, alas, is never preceded by the patriotic phrase "mind our own freaking business." Not once.
[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]
mmm delicious.
| 964 |
truth stick Sun, Nov 8, 2009 9:26:10am |
The fact that the Dems have, what 250 seats in the house, and still could barely find 218 votes needed, tells us just how bad this thing is.
This thing must violate atleast a couple of my constitutional rights
| 965 |
Wozza Matter? Sun, Nov 8, 2009 9:33:22am |
re: #957 karmic_inquisitor
yes - because the current system of private firms keeping costs down has worked so very, very well.
Pharmaceutical firms have given the bulk discounts to the insurance firms for drugs the same way that the national governments buying in bulk have. Read up on "economies of scale".
Drug prices in the states are significantly higher than elsewhere.
The total cost of the US system is 30% higher than it costs 20 different democracies with untold beaurocracies to treat the same number of people to the same or improved outcomes.
| 966 |
SilentAlfa Sun, Nov 8, 2009 10:10:35am |
re: #961 exelwood
The funniest part will be when all the hipster left wingers figure out they're going to be standing in line with the rest of us waiting for third rate medical care. That and when the bed hair 20 somethings with the little square glasses start forking over 13% of their gross income for the health insurance they really, really believed would be paid for by the "government". :D
I know the liberal effete (so much more descriptive than liberal elite) believed that bad health care would only affect the masses but this bill will put everyone except government officials on a path to health care by bureaucrat.
Those guys might want to read the story of Lenin's useful idiots again.
I know, buddy. I'm totally an amoral communist elitist hipster left-winger because I want to save my money by giving a minimum of preventative care to the impoverished so that they won't have to waste my money by going to the emergency room for basic health services.
| 967 |
Wozza Matter? Sun, Nov 8, 2009 10:10:58am |
re: #964 truth stick
you are welcome to try it in court slick. hire Orly Taitz and challenge federal Auto and Flood insurance mandates while you are at it... and the Federal Highways and medicare, medicaid, SCHIP, student loans and FDIC (for starters)
| 969 |
exelwood Sun, Nov 8, 2009 10:50:53am |
re: #966 SilentAlfa
I know, buddy. I'm totally an amoral communist elitist hipster left-winger because I want to save my money by giving a minimum of preventative care to the impoverished so that they won't have to waste my money by going to the emergency room for basic health services.
Do you genuinely believe this bill has anything to do with health care? This bill is about money and power for government just like cap and trade. If they were serious about improving actual health care they could have put in any number of pilot programs for any number of solutions to see what might deliver quality health care at an affordable price but that has never been the intent of the Democrats.
This massive takeover of our health system is all about putting government so far up your backside you can never get them out. Too many cheezeburgers?? No bypass for you!! Affirmative action in medicine, sure, why not.
In homogeneous societies (Sweden, Japan, etc) socialist programs have a better chance than in a balkanized society like America. We have "communities" who simply can't wait to stick it to other "communities" they see as the enemy.
This health care bill creates opportunity for mischief and mischief will be done. But take heart, when it fails it won't be liberals fault, it never is.
| 970 |
Wozza Matter? Sun, Nov 8, 2009 10:58:39am |
This massive takeover of our health system is all about putting government so far up your backside you can never get them out. Too many cheezeburgers?? No bypass for you!! Affirmative action in medicine, sure, why not.
the massive take over... equates to opening up the system for a small percentage of americans with pre existing conditions, in restrictive schemes or whose employers can't or won't provide coverage.
There is no scope fot providing a single payer system where all Dotors will have the US Government as their paycheck...
| 971 |
cenotaphium Sun, Nov 8, 2009 11:12:36am |
re: #969 exelwood
In homogeneous societies (Sweden, Japan, etc) socialist programs have a better chance than in a balkanized society like America. We have "communities" who simply can't wait to stick it to other "communities" they see as the enemy.
Can you finish this thought? I'd like to know what the special sauce is here in Sweden that makes our socialism work. How would these communities (which, I assure you, we have too) use health care to "stick it" to other ones?
| 972 |
exelwood Sun, Nov 8, 2009 11:26:53am |
re: #971 cenotaphium
Can you finish this thought? I'd like to know what the special sauce is here in Sweden that makes our socialism work. How would these communities (which, I assure you, we have too) use health care to "stick it" to other ones?
It's about intent. I'm convinced the Swedish (for example) social system was designed to actually help the citizens by individuals with genuine empathy for their constituents. That it isn't working long term is a simple failure of socialism.
This US bill has no such intent. It is rife with opportunity for one group to take things from another and will be used as such which brings me back to my original point; this bill has little to do with health care and much to do with control. The government will begin removing freedoms in the name of health care almost immediately.
That there will be cheezsburger police is undeniable, lol, they are already after soda pop! That is the tip of a busybody assault iceberg of historic proportions after all, guns and beer are dangerous! Think it can't happen here? Look what congress just passed.
| 973 |
exelwood Sun, Nov 8, 2009 11:43:02am |
re: #970 wozzablog
the massive take over... equates to opening up the system for a small percentage of americans with pre existing conditions, in restrictive schemes or whose employers can't or won't provide coverage.
There is no scope fot providing a single payer system where all Dotors will have the US Government as their paycheck...
Congress could have easily "opened up the system" for those in true need and done it a lot cheaper than a complete revamp of our health care.
Does it ever bother you that any problem (as defined by the government) is always best solved by giving the government more money and control, cap and trade anyone?
| 974 |
Synesius Sun, Nov 8, 2009 11:54:01am |
Every crisis is an opportunity. The bill provides significant disincentives to hire new employees, especially for businesses with payrolls below $500k. I can't imagine this will help folks who are looking for work. It might be a good time to invest in companies producing large cardboard boxes. Even people with free health care will need a place to live.
| 975 |
jayzee Sun, Nov 8, 2009 11:55:38am |
It's bad just bad. Let's hope it fails in the senate.
| 976 |
Wozza Matter? Sun, Nov 8, 2009 12:18:45pm |
re: #973 exelwood
i've already said it's a bad bill in a good cause. it could probbaly have been done cheaper - and it all could have been sorted from the begining if Obama had just presented his own bill after the election.
Does it bother me?
who else could have saved autos?
who else could have provided the immediate capital to stop massive banks collapsing and taking the world payments system with them?
Who else had he money to plough into the states to prevent the losses of thousands upon thousands of Jobs - see Charlie Crist on the situation room about how many Educators Florida would have lost without stimulous money.
Long as i have my choice of non-government bagel shops - s'all good for me. Thats a simplification - but as long as i have choice of none essentials - bagels, toilet tissue, fridges, alphabettie spaghetti...and as long as the government wants to save teaching jobs or help medically insure people... then i guess i'm just not as doctrinaire as is required these days.
Grand works and great projects are largely the remit of governments through the ages.
The
| 977 |
BaseballMom57 Sun, Nov 8, 2009 3:18:07pm |
re: #105 Killgore Trout
Seeing that kind of footage always sends chills down my spine. And not in a Matthews' tingle down the leg kinda way.
| 978 |
really grumpy big dog johnson Sun, Nov 8, 2009 3:21:56pm |
Makes sense...
| 979 |
William of Orange Sun, Nov 8, 2009 3:43:54pm |
re: #368 TheMatrix31
Tell me one place where its worked. Meaning, a place where the quality is excellent, services are rendered when necessary, the system isn't in massive debt, etc.
(I point my finger into the sky and say:)
Hello, Netherlands! Yes, my health insurance covers everything.
| 980 |
William of Orange Sun, Nov 8, 2009 3:47:41pm |
re: #979 William of Orange
(I point my finger into the sky and say:)
Hello, Netherlands! Yes, my health insurance covers everything.
Okay, not quite the same as a fully paid government run service but this alternative seems to be alternative for the US system.
[Link: www.justlanded.com...]
| 981 |
William of Orange Sun, Nov 8, 2009 3:51:33pm |
This quote is an impartant one from the link I provided above:
The government has put together a basic package that covers about the same as the previous system. Health insurance companies are legally obliged to offer at least this basic package and can not reject anybody who is applying for it.
With the basic package you are covered for the following:•Medical care, including services by GP’s, hospitals, medical specialists and obstetricians
•Hospital stay
•Dental care (up until the age of 18 years, when 18 years or older you are only covered for specialist dental care and false teeth)
•Various medical appliances
•Various medicines
•Prenatal care
•Patient transport (e.g. ambulance)
•Paramedical care
You can decide to purchase additional insurance for circumstances not included in the basic package. However, in this case insurance companies can reject your application and they have the right to determine the price.
Sorry for all the posts above, it could have been done in one reply.
| 982 |
exelwood Sun, Nov 8, 2009 4:15:21pm |
re: #976 wozzablog
i've already said it's a bad bill in a good cause. it could probbaly have been done cheaper - and it all could have been sorted from the begining if Obama had just presented his own bill after the election.
Does it bother me?
who else could have saved autos?
who else could have provided the immediate capital to stop massive banks collapsing and taking the world payments system with them?
Who else had he money to plough into the states to prevent the losses of thousands upon thousands of Jobs - see Charlie Crist on the situation room about how many Educators Florida would have lost without stimulous money.Long as i have my choice of non-government bagel shops - s'all good for me. Thats a simplification - but as long as i have choice of none essentials - bagels, toilet tissue, fridges, alphabettie spaghetti...and as long as the government wants to save teaching jobs or help medically insure people... then i guess i'm just not as doctrinaire as is required these days.
Grand works and great projects are largely the remit of governments through the ages.
The
Obviously, we have far different views of the role of government. As far as saving banks and auto companies they should have been allowed to collapse under their own weight. Should Harding have bailed out the last buggy whip maker?
The government's artificial inflation of failing banks and companies has set back true recovery for years. If Obama were serious about a recovery (and he isn't) there would be no discussion of giant social programs, raising taxes and government interference in the private sector. His misuse of bankruptcy law would be criminal were he a Republican. Lawful debtors who had actual money invested in GM and Chrysler were forced into a subordinate role to the unions who owned nothing but bloated contracts. Do you acknowledge the government's role in the financial melt down?
At any rate, you will continue to believe in government and I will continue to believe in the people. Hopefully, I win so you'll continue to have a place to dream in. :)
| 983 |
Wozza Matter? Sun, Nov 8, 2009 7:02:44pm |
Government in general - or just Obama's Government are you blainmg for the collapse of an artificial model of economics that embraced worthless mortgages sold on street corners and sold them on as equities to underwrite everything?
Seems to me like there should have been some better regulation happening - of credit agencies, of banks, of payday lenders of fanny,freddie and the new instruments designed to subvert the markets like the Shorts and doing away with Sarbanes-Oxley.
Letting the banks collapse was not an option contemplated with anyone serious - it couldn't be.
AIG insured or reinsured almost every piece of credit paper in the country - and a lot of the world through subsidiaries. If AIG had been allowed to go to the wall the global system would have torn itself asunder - we have gotten off very very lightly. If the big banks had been allowed to go under - and every current account in the country was paid out by the FDIC... is that the way?.
Lets for the hell of it - strip the FDIC out as unwarranted government pillage - and the banks collapsed... with no underwriting for peoples checking, savings or current accounts?. Honest poeple who had no dog in the fight - what do you tell them???. "tough tittys?" - better luck next time, sorry all of your money is gone so that you can't pay your mortgage or feed your kids... Want to tell people that? - be my guest - be my guest.
Autos - watching a region being laid waste to - and writing it off for a couple of generations is precisely what would have happned if the Autos hadn't - in a process started by Bush - not found some fiscal backing. Also - at a time of already spiralling unemployment - laying off a couple of hundred thousand in one fell swoop and bankrupting Michigan further with the requirements of emergency relif for employees is the fiscally prudent thing to do? Or again, no relief from the states?... let the workers hang?.
"too big to fail" does not mean that it's impossible for a firm to fail - it means that if the firm failed there would be catastrophic damage - cataclysmic damage. You have to see how the dots connect. If you can't see cause and effect - letting the banks go means a few hundred thousand people lose their jobs - sure - but it means you have to build from scratch institutions of decades, and centuries standing.
Same with Autos - if the US manufacturers - minus ford - went to the wall entirely all you get is a stronger Korean and Japanesse economy as their firms build the cars and their firms make the profits.
Seperating "government" from "the people" in a snippy little off hand way gets met with the force of history and the greatest Republican President who said something along the lines of:
"government: of the people, by the people, for the people"
Sure - it was a different time, there was talk of succession, the economy was in bad shape, people were divided and guns were rife among those southerners with grievences... but back in 1863 it was a lot simpler then.
| 984 |
exelwood Sun, Nov 8, 2009 8:44:04pm |
re: #983 wozzablog
Government in general - or just Obama's Government are you blainmg for the collapse of an artificial model of economics that embraced worthless mortgages sold on street corners and sold them on as equities to underwrite everything?
It goes back to the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 (Carter!) This act required lenders to make loans to what was euphemistically referred to "sub-prime" borrowers. FMae and FMac guaranteed these loans so lenders were able to shine these bad loans on to the tax payers as we have so recently seen. FMae and FMac sucked up everything the lenders threw at them until the house of cards fell down. Wall Street abetted the crime spree by developing mortgage based derivatives, essentially reselling the same loan over and over, all backed by FMae and FMac.
There are dozens of clips of Democrats defending FMac and FMae throughout the Bush administration. The Bush Administration first sounded the alarm about this impending disaster in 2001. This isn't partisan rhetoric, it's viewable history.
Seems to me like there should have been some better regulation happening - of credit agencies, of banks, of payday lenders of fanny,freddie and the new instruments designed to subvert the markets like the Shorts and doing away with Sarbanes-Oxley.
The Bush administration strongly recommended regulation in 2003, they were shot down by Barney Frank and his gang.
Letting the banks collapse was not an option contemplated with anyone serious - it couldn't be.
Of course it's an option. Why do you think we have bankruptcy laws? They provide for an orderly process in that either a company restructures or dismantling it if it can't be restructured. No chaos, no "little guy" loses any money, just like the banks who are failing every week now.
Autos - watching a region being laid waste to - and writing it off for a couple of generations is precisely what would have happned if the Autos hadn't - in a process started by Bush - not found some fiscal backing. Also - at a time of already spiralling unemployment - laying off a couple of hundred thousand in one fell swoop and bankrupting Michigan further with the requirements of emergency relif for employees is the fiscally prudent thing to do? Or again, no relief from the states?... let the workers hang?.Why do we pretend the auto companies would have disappeared if Obama hadn't stepped in and stolen them? They would have continued to operate under bankruptcy and they would have restructured. What was important to Democrats was keeping them out of bankruptcy so union contracts wouldn't be renegotiated as they certainly would have been.
"too big to fail" does not mean that it's impossible for a f, irm to fail - it means that if the firm failed there would be catastrophic damage - cataclysmic damage. You have to see how the dots connect. If you can't see cause and effect - letting the banks go means a few hundred thousand people lose their jobs - sure - but it means you have to build from scratch institutions of decades, and centuries standing.
Same with Autos - if the US manufacturers - minus ford - went to the wall entirely all you get is a stronger Korean and Japanesse economy as their firms build the cars and their firms make the profits.see above
Seperating "government" from "the people" in a snippy little off hand way gets met with the force of history and the greatest Republican President who said something along the lines of:
Sure - it was a different time, there was talk of succession, the economy was in bad shape, people were divided and guns were rife among those southerners with grievences... but back in 1863 it was a lot simpler then.
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