Stuck in the Middle of the Political Goo

Politics • Views: 2,913

Hot Air may have put me in their “Left Channels,” but Think Progress still categorizes me as a “conservative” blogger: Think Progress � Doug Hoffman Praises Glenn Beck As His ‘Mentor’.

Conservative blogger Charles Johnson of the site Little Green Footballs reported yesterday that Doug Hoffman, the Conservative Party candidate in the NY-23 special election, signed a pledge to uphold Glenn Beck’s 9/12 Project principles in Congress. The signed pledge is available online, and Hoffman touts his endorsement from the 9/12 organization on his website. Like the lobbyist-planned tea parties, the 9/12 Project is a creation of Beck, used to go after Beck’s liberal enemies and to organize hateful anti-Obama rallies.

Although there is a groundswell of far right tea party and Beck-inspired candidates running for office in 2010, very few Republicans running for Congress or Governor have signed the 9/12 pledge. Noting that he signed a document pledging his “sacred honor” to uphold Beck’s list of values and principles, Johnson aptly deems Hoffman “The Glenn Beck candidate.”

Right-wing bloggers have been apoplectic at Johnson for daring to observe the fact that Hoffman has been bowing to an extremist like Beck. They have written that Johnson must “hate America” and is “infused with Derangement Syndrome.”

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637 comments
1 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:11:41pm

Tech. challenged here...
How'd this get retweets bfore a comment?

2 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:11:58pm
Hot Air may have put me in their “Left Channels,” but Think Progress still categorizes me as a “conservative” blogger:


I've never taken insult or pride in either label.

3 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:12:13pm
4 freetoken  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:12:46pm
They have written that Johnson must “hate America” ...

Yeah Charles, why do you hate America? Why are you trying to derail God's 5000 year plan?

/☔

5 arethusa  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:13:22pm

How curious, the way it's worded makes it sound like "conservative" bloggers and "right-wing" bloggers are two different things. Which, of course, they might be.

6 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:14:06pm

Cognitive dissonance, my man. You have become someone who cannot be pigeonholed.

Good.

7 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:14:46pm

Did the weblog awards open yet?

8 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:15:45pm

re: #3 lawhawk


Mama told me not to come

9 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:17:33pm

And with 74.3% reporting and Christie up more than 5%, Politico is calling the election for him.

10 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:18:38pm

Charles: the out guy for both groups.

I nominate you head of the curmudgeon party of reason.

11 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:18:45pm
12 arethusa  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:19:07pm

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

And with 74.3% reporting and Christie up more than 5%, Politico is calling the election for him.

As is the AP.

13 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:19:21pm

Left-wing or right-wing (I never thought Charles was a conservative, anyway), LGF is still the first place I think of in which to celebrate.

I HAVEN'T FELT THIS GOOD POLITICALLY IN A WHOLE YEAR. Oh God, thank you, Virginia and New Jersey!

14 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:19:55pm

I am not a Democrat.
I am not a Republican.

I am a meat popsicle.

15 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:20:01pm

re: #12 arethusa

As is the AP.

I almost jumped up 10 feet in the air when I got the push notification on AP News.

16 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:20:37pm

re: #13 vbspurs

Left-wing or right-wing (I never thought Charles was a conservative, anyway), LGF is still the first place I think of in which to celebrate.

I HAVEN'T FELT THIS GOOD POLITICALLY IN A WHOLE YEAR. Oh God, thank you, Virginia and New Jersey!

Those two are putting a smile on my face as well, although I have reservations on McDonnell's socon lean.

17 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:20:48pm

Christie remains ahead (and declared winner by AP, Politico, NJ.com etc.) 50% to 44%.

Other outlets said that Bloomberg won in NYC, but the voting results are suggesting a much closer race than otherwise indicated. In fact, it's just a few thousand votes separating them.

18 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:21:09pm

Owens is probably going to win NY-23...

19 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:21:15pm

re: #14 Racer X

I am not a Democrat.
I am not a Republican.

I am a meat popsicle.

Nice one, Bruce.

20 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:21:34pm

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

And with 74.3% reporting and Christie up more than 5%, Politico is calling the election for him.

Not surprising. Corzine had *huge* baggage. Virginia was no surprise, either. NY-23? Let's see how that goes.

Although, quite frankly, I don't think any of these elections have real relevance for 2010. Too early yet. The condition of the economy in July, 2010 will be relevant.

(As Dollar Bill said, "It's about the economy, stupid.")

21 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:21:47pm

re: #16 Thanos

Those two are putting a smile on my face as well, although I have reservations on McDonnell's socon lean.

Heck, after one whole year of political Siberia, I'll take it!

22 keithgabryelski  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:21:50pm

re: #18 Charles

Owens is probably going to win NY-23...

what do you think that means? if anything?

23 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:22:02pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

Nice one, Bruce.

Thats Mr. Dallas to you.

24 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:22:07pm

re: #18 Charles

Owens is probably going to win NY-23...

N.Y. District 23
N.Y. District 23 Candidate Party Votes Pct.
Bill Owens Dem. 23,455 51.1%
Doug Hoffman Con. 20,116 43.9
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 2,294 5.0

25 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:23:15pm

Yeah, the headline tomorrow might be "Socons Can't Buy an Election but Bloomberg Can."

26 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:24:02pm

re: #18 Charles

Owens is probably going to win NY-23...

good news. the far right handed a solid GOP district to the Dems. they did so because the Republican nominee didn't sufficiently hate gays or want the gov't to have control over a woman's body. period. that's what (looks like) happened in NY-23 tonight. we know limbaugh, beck, etc. will try and spin it tmrw as being the fault of Dede, but we know the truth. and we know that the voters Upstate tonight solidly rejected an invasion of their district by theocrats. again, good news.

27 Dionysus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:24:03pm

re: #18 Charles

I am so relieved. I was afraid what would happen if he won, but maybe this can hurt the right wing fringe and the GOP can go back to being a big tent party.

28 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:24:28pm

Here are the breakdowns by county in NY-23.

29 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:24:31pm

re: #20 austin_blue

Not surprising. Corzine had *huge* baggage. Virginia was no surprise, either. NY-23? Let's see how that goes.

Although, quite frankly, I don't think any of these elections have real relevance for 2010. Too early yet. The condition of the economy in July, 2010 will be relevant.

(As Dollar Bill said, "It's about the economy, stupid.")

That I agree with. That said, I am pleased. The GOP won both governor's mansions and the people who won are not crazies. NJ is especially good. Hopefully Christie can build up the state party there. That could, in time, provide people within the GOP able to provide pushback against the Tea Party crowd.

30 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:25:10pm

re: #25 Thanos

Yeah, the headline tomorrow might be "Socons Can't Buy an Election but Bloomberg Can."

The headlines should be:

Better Candidates Win Elections

31 TDG2112  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:25:16pm

re: #18 Charles

Won't stop the purge unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your POV). But it will re-invigorate the none-sense about the democrats and Acorn "stealing" the election.

32 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:25:52pm

re: #30 austin_blue

The headlines should be:

Better Candidates Win Elections

Quite Concur.

33 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:26:08pm

re: #27 Dionysus

I am so relieved. I was afraid what would happen if he won, but maybe this can hurt the right wing fringe and the GOP can go back to being a big tent party.

Oh God, I sincerely hope it'll never be a big tent party. Reagan had clear, sincerely held conservative ideals that appealed to many. THAT'S what we need.

34 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:26:30pm

re: #28 lawhawk

Here are the breakdowns by county in NY-23.

Several counties with zero reported, maybe he still has a chance.

35 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:26:38pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

That I agree with. That said, I am pleased. The GOP won both governor's mansions and the people who won are not crazies. NJ is especially good. Hopefully Christie can build up the state party there. That could, in time, provide people within the GOP able to provide pushback against the Tea Party crowd.

Well, here's the thing, DF. Christie has inherited a bucket of shit, which is why Corzine is gone. Good luck to him. He'll need it.

36 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:27:17pm

Does Doug Hoffman also praise The Breakfast Flakes, Mancow, and Opie and Anthony as mentors?

I know exactly why he's saying that, but it still seems like bizarro world that a dude who does zany radio stunts on TV, no matter how popular he is, is influencing the GOP to this extent.

37 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:27:29pm

re: #18 Charles

would be nice for a local candidate to win... with local money... and no Armey behind him

38 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:27:57pm

re: #35 austin_blue

Well, here's the thing, DF. Christie has inherited a bucket of shit, which is why Corzine is gone. Good luck to him. He'll need it.

So did Obama. That didn't mean the press and the whole world didn't celebrate for a whole six months like mofos. Let us enjoy this moment, please. We get less time to do so from media than the Libs.

39 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:27:58pm

re: #35 austin_blue

Well, here's the thing, DF. Christie has inherited a bucket of shit, which is why Corzine is gone. Good luck to him. He'll need it.

After watching the White House he ought to be able to do nothing but blame Corzine for the first year.

40 freetoken  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:28:03pm

re: #28 lawhawk

Seems like a very tight race. Leading by less than 2000 votes...

41 arethusa  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:28:05pm

re: #28 lawhawk

Here are the breakdowns by county in NY-23.

Do you know which counties trend more liberal (i.e., those with the college towns)?

42 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:28:35pm

re: #34 Thanos

It's all about geography in NY-23. Some counties are D leaners, others are R leaners. If the D leaners reported early, you've got a cushion for Owens. If the R leaners reported early and Owens was leading, it's bad news for Hoffman.

So, which districts went which way in past elections...

Processing...

43 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:28:59pm

re: #33 vbspurs

Oh God, I sincerely hope it'll never be a big tent party. Reagan had clear, sincerely held conservative ideals that appealed to many. THAT'S what we need.

It's not 1984 anymore. The polity has changed. Anyone who believes that the Reagan coalition has legs in this day and age will be permanently marginalized.

44 brookly red  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:29:34pm

re: #39 soxfan4life

After watching the White House he ought to be able to do nothing but blame Corzine for the first year.


but it really IS Corzine's fault...

45 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:29:36pm

This is hysterical. Flipping through every news station covering the elections. How many different illusions can democrats concoct to make it seem like tonight's results are meaningless? Are you really hoping the people holding seats up for grabs are going to buy it?

46 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:29:50pm

re: #38 vbspurs

So did Obama. That didn't mean the press and the whole world didn't celebrate for a whole six months like mofos. Let us enjoy this moment, please. We get less time to do so from media than the Libs.

Mofos?

47 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:30:06pm

All of a Sudden, Pessimism at Hoffman HQ:

The mood is getting darker at NY-23 Conservative Party candidate Doug Hoffman’s election party. Results from Jefferson County–Republican territory that John McCain carried–show Owens in the lead. And the Syracuse suburbs–Madison, Oswego, and Oneida County–are not showing the blowouts that early polling suggested. The first results from Oswego show Hoffman at 2800, Owens at 2000, and Scozzafava at 324. The final Siena poll had Hoffman leading Democrat BIll Owens 51-28 in this region.

I asked Hoffman’s spokesman Rob Ryan for a reaction, and he suggested that it was hard to know the trends without knowing which wards the votes were coming from. That’s true, but it’s significantly less optimism than Ryan was projecting earlier tonight.


heh.

48 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:30:26pm

N.Y. District 23
N.Y. District 23 Candidate Party Votes Pct.
Bill Owens Dem. 27,972 49.7%
Doug Hoffman Con. 25,422 45.2
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 2,877 5.1

Hoffman Creeps up

49 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:31:26pm

re: #39 soxfan4life

After watching the White House he ought to be able to do nothing but blame Corzine for the first year.

Won't work on the State level. Too many externalities.

50 Dionysus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:31:27pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon


I have some reservations about McDonnell, but Christie seems like he should be good. He's for alternative energy, doesn't want to shove his beliefs about abortion down anyones throats, and has reasonable immigration stances too. He was the better candidate than Corzine, so I'm glad he won.

I don't think this election has much in the way of national implications, other than the GOP is looking a little stronger or the dems a little weaker (not sure, probably the latter).

51 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:31:34pm

I wouldn't start getting excited about NY23 yet.

52 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:31:35pm

re: #47 iceweasel

But Hannity said it was a lock for Hoffman.///

53 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:31:43pm

re: #43 austin_blue

It's not 1984 anymore. The polity has changed. Anyone who believes that the Reagan coalition has legs in this day and age will be permanently marginalized.

I'm not asking for Reagan and 1986 (so as not to be Orwellian about it). I'm asking for a return to true conservative values of limited government interference, and respect for traditional American values of hard work which leads one to enjoy one's hard play. In other words, I'm asking for liberty.

That's something all Americans like.

54 brookly red  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:31:44pm

Dewey Wins!

55 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:32:40pm

re: #46 austin_blue

Mofos?

It's like colour phobos.

56 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:32:42pm

10:27 -- At Corzine HQ, Rep. Rush Holt says one should be "very careful" about calling this prematurely. -- MIKE MEMOLI

10:26 -- NBC withdraws its call for Bloomberg. Whoa. --SEAN TRENDE

10:22 -- It may only stay this way for a moment, but right now the gay marriage question in Maine is split 50.0 in favor and 50.0 against - the two sides are currently separated by just 79 votes out of more than 134,000 cast. --TOM BEVAN

57 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:32:50pm

re: #48 Thanos


Hoffman Creeps

darn tooted

58 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:33:03pm

re: #45 cliffster

This is hysterical. Flipping through every news station covering the elections. How many different illusions can democrats concoct to make it seem like tonight's results are meaningless? Are you really hoping the people holding seats up for grabs are going to buy it?

As far as I'm concerned a Corzine loss is a win for the Democratic Party. He made Democrats look bad in general.

59 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:33:18pm

re: #49 austin_blue

Won't work on the State level. Too many externalities.

Doesn't work on the National level either, it's just that his cheering section the MSM refuses to do their job and call him on it.

60 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:33:27pm
61 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:33:42pm

re: #33 vbspurs

Oh God, I sincerely hope it'll never be a big tent party. Reagan had clear, sincerely held conservative ideals that appealed to many. THAT'S what we need.

You can't go back to 25 years ago. The Delorean's out of gas, the demo has changed. The GOP needs a bigger tent. They need to stop alienating Hispanic voters, for instance. They need to stop creeping out moderates and reasonable people with the crazed FotF/FRC crowd.

62 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:33:50pm

re: #58 Conservative Moonbat

As far as I'm concerned a Corzine loss is a win for the Democratic Party. He made Democrats look bad in general.

So does Obama. Who will you vote for in 2012? ;)

63 keithgabryelski  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:33:52pm

re: #26 rollwave87

we know limbaugh, beck, etc. will try and spin it tmrw as being the fault of Dede, but we know the truth.

I suspect they will say it doesn't matter because they have Rs in both NJ and VA (which were the only things that really mattered).

And ME's prop 1 just flipped to anti-gay (51%).

64 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:34:02pm

re: #56 NJDhockeyfan

10:27 -- At Corzine HQ, Rep. Rush Holt says one should be "very careful" about calling this prematurely. -- MIKE MEMOLI

10:26 -- NBC withdraws its call for Bloomberg. Whoa. --SEAN TRENDE

10:22 -- It may only stay this way for a moment, but right now the gay marriage question in Maine is split 50.0 in favor and 50.0 against - the two sides are currently separated by just 79 votes out of more than 134,000 cast. --TOM BEVAN

That's why I laugh at people who claim that their votes don't count.

65 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:34:11pm

re: #57 wozzablog

darn tooted

yeah but he just went back down 3 tenths of a point again...I know, I cant believe Im following a congressional race on the Canadian border that doesn't even have a Republican in the running so closely either...

66 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:34:14pm

re: #42 lawhawk

It's all about geography in NY-23. Some counties are D leaners, others are R leaners. If the D leaners reported early, you've got a cushion for Owens. If the R leaners reported early and Owens was leading, it's bad news for Hoffman.

So, which districts went which way in past elections...

Processing...

Oswegos partly in, and it's not as heavy Hoffman as advertised...

67 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:34:19pm

re: #58 Conservative Moonbat

As far as I'm concerned a Corzine loss is a win for the Democratic Party. He made Democrats look bad in general.

100% agreed. Fuck that guy.

68 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:34:19pm

re: #58 Conservative Moonbat

He couldn't make them look worse than Pelosi and Reid do.

69 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:34:44pm

You know what I do notice on LGF suddenly, though? Not a change by Charles. He's always been consistent. But suddenly this doesn't seem such a conservative readership anymore...which would be disappointing to me personally.

I hope Sharmuta turns up later.

70 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:34:47pm

twitter

Hoffman splitting Madison County, where he was leading 2-1 in Siena Poll. Getting ready to say "Congressman Bill Owens."

kos RT dave weigel

71 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:35:15pm

re: #53 vbspurs

I'm not asking for Reagan and 1986 (so as not to be Orwellian about it). I'm asking for a return to true conservative values of limited government interference, and respect for traditional American values of hard work which leads one to enjoy one's hard play. In other words, I'm asking for liberty.

That's something all Americans like.

So, except for the limited government part, do the vast majority of Democrats.

So your sole viable position is limited government. How did limited government oversight do in regulating banks and financial institutions?

72 Dionysus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:35:31pm

re: #33 vbspurs

He also stated that anyone who votes for you 80% of the time is your friend. Your type views anyone who isn't pure as the enemy.

73 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:35:50pm

re: #61 WindUpBird

You can't go back to 25 years ago. The Delorean's out of gas, the demo has changed. The GOP needs a bigger tent. They need to stop alienating Hispanic voters, for instance. They need to stop creeping out moderates and reasonable people with the crazed FotF/FRC crowd.

Obama has gone back 70 years to FDR, and you're accusing US of lusting towards the past?

74 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:36:05pm

re: #68 soxfan4life

He couldn't make them look worse than Pelosi and Reid do.

or Shumer
or Kerry
or Dodd
or Murtha

75 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:36:13pm

re: #69 vbspurs

We're just vewy vewy qwiet.

76 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:36:31pm

re: #69 vbspurs

You know what I do notice on LGF suddenly, though? Not a change by Charles. He's always been consistent. But suddenly this doesn't seem such a conservative readership anymore...which would be disappointing to me personally.

I hope Sharmuta turns up later.

I think it has readership from all over, which is a good thing.

77 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:37:09pm

re: #71 austin_blue

So, except for the limited government part, do the vast majority of Democrats.

So your sole viable position is limited government. How did limited government oversight do in regulating banks and financial institutions?

As I intimated earlier, if I wanted this kind of feedback from forum colleagues, I'd go to Politico or HuffPo.

Sorry guys. I'm outties to celebrate with real conservatives. Catch you later.

78 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:37:24pm

re: #73 vbspurs

Obama has gone back 70 years to FDR, and you're accusing US of lusting towards the past?

hah, the reports of Obama's NewDealapalooza are greatly exaggerated. A stimulus bill does not a Franklin Delanor make.

79 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:37:26pm

re: #69 vbspurs

You know what I do notice on LGF suddenly, though? Not a change by Charles. He's always been consistent. But suddenly this doesn't seem such a conservative readership anymore...which would be disappointing to me personally.

I hope Sharmuta turns up later.

We (conservatives) are here! Several of us. Many left, for one reason or another. You just haven't been around much of late.

80 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:37:32pm

re: #74 NJDhockeyfan

or Shumer
or Kerry
or Dodd
or Murtha

I forgot the tax cheat himself Charlie Rangel, a real shining light.

81 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:37:53pm

re: #72 Dionysus

He also stated that anyone who votes for you 80% of the time is your friend. Your type views anyone who isn't pure as the enemy.

Lieberman.

82 Irenicum  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:37:55pm

"apoplectic" cool.

83 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:38:01pm

re: #59 soxfan4life

Doesn't work on the National level either, it's just that his cheering section the MSM refuses to do their job and call him on it.

Actually, that's crap.

Image: obamamad.jpg

That's pretty much accurate, isn't it?

And damn funny, too.

84 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:38:10pm

Good to see Owens winning in upstate New York. I supported Deeds here in Virginia though I have to say especially in light of the fact that those two literally ran neck and neck four years ago that McDonnell ran a smart campaign and the results show.

85 Mich-again  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:38:20pm

re: #74 NJDhockeyfan

or Shumer
or Kerry
or Dodd
or Murtha

Then there are the Johns Dingell and Conyers. Dumb and dumber.

86 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:38:44pm
87 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:39:17pm

re: #85 Mich-again

Then there are the Johns Dingell and Conyers. Dumb and dumber.

And Bawny Fwank too.

88 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:39:19pm

it's sad to see Maine even being so close...let alone to see the anti-gay side actually winning right now.

89 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:39:37pm

Just uploaded: worried faces at Hoffman party:

They dont look very happy...

Image: 554eh.jpg

90 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:39:42pm

Everyone -

For what t is worth, 4 years ago, Jon Corzine made a HUGE mistake politically.
He could have stayed in the US Senate for as long as he wanted. As a legislator, he looked OK. As Governor, his incompetence as an executive showed, without going into myriad examples.
In 1981, about 1300 votes separated Jim Florio and Tom Kean, running for an open seat, a re-count would have been understandable. Florio, to his credit, declined to do so.
In the last 48 hours, about 3000 absentee ballots were challenged due to signatures NOT MATCHING and the NJDC having to admit that they were funding & placing Pro-Daggett calls.
All of this - "Dick Tuck Stuff" - is NOT going to work this time - Christie, whether on a Positive or Negative Basis got enough votes to make a stolen election impossible.
As for the current Governor - Yis Gadol, V Yis Kadash, Sh'Mei Rabboh.
That is all.

-S-

91 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:40:13pm

re: #84 HappyWarrior

Good to see Owens winning in upstate New York. I supported Deeds here in Virginia though I have to say especially in light of the fact that those two literally ran neck and neck four years ago that McDonnell ran a smart campaign and the results show.

McDonnell was the much better candidate. He deserved to win.

92 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:40:24pm

re: #86 vbspurs

Yes, sadly. I did hear from my friends of the left-ward shift of LGF. Oh sorry, I mean Big Tent Shift. But it's just not my cuppa on LGF. For that I have other websites to go to and do.

Nice to see you though, RdT!!

Not really sure what type of conservatives you are looking for. I'm a big time fiscal conservative, but the social conservative agenda is just downright foolish.

93 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:40:34pm
94 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:41:11pm

re: #77 vbspurs

As I intimated earlier, if I wanted this kind of feedback from forum colleagues, I'd go to Politico or HuffPo.

Sorry guys. I'm outties to celebrate with real conservatives. Catch you later.

What, you think there are no 'real conservatives' here? And you can't handle any interaction with someone who has a different viewpoint than you?
Bah.

95 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:41:18pm

re: #88 rollwave87

it's sad to see Maine even being so close...let alone to see the anti-gay side actually winning right now.

What exactly does "anti-gay" mean?

96 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:41:34pm

re: #81 Racer X

Lieberman.

How often do you vote for actual real live Democrats on the local level? Just curious. I vote mostly Democrat, but I voted for Gordon Brown this last election, and I've voted for Rs in the past. Because I'm not afraid of liberalism OR conservatism.

97 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:41:35pm

re: #77 vbspurs

As I intimated earlier, if I wanted this kind of feedback from forum colleagues, I'd go to Politico or HuffPo.

Sorry guys. I'm outties to celebrate with real conservatives. Catch you later.

Well, then, off to the echo chamber with you! Have fun!

Beats thinking!

98 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:41:40pm

re: #93 lawhawk

still 3000 votes down

99 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:41:41pm

re: #87 NJDhockeyfan

And Bawny Fwank too.

And Dollar Bill Jefferson in Louisiana

100 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:41:48pm

10:34 -- Rep. Rothman sounds more realistic. "I'd like to believe there's still some hope, but all the evidence appears to be to the contrary," he tells RCP -- MIKE MEMOLI

10:33 -- With 40% reporting, Owens (D) is leading Hoffman 50%-45%. A lot depends on what precincts are in and what precincts are not. If the remaining precincts are in the Syracuse area, and the Northeast is in, then its OK for Hoffman. Otherwise, its bad news for the conservative. In other news, the gay marriage question is still neck-in-neck in Maine, with the "legislature got it right" answer on top.

101 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:41:53pm

re: #72 Dionysus

He also stated that anyone who votes for you 80% of the time is your friend. Your type views anyone who isn't pure as the enemy.

I'm that "type".

I don't view anyone who isn't "pure" as "the enemy".

vbspurs shows up and posts a couple of comments and you instantly know him?

102 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:42:09pm

re: #95 cliffster

What exactly does "anti-gay" mean?

It means someone doesn't want to give gay people equal goddamn rights.

103 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:42:44pm

re: #94 iceweasel

What, you think there are no 'real conservatives' here? And you can't handle any interaction with someone who has a different viewpoint than you?
Bah.

Yeah, his #77 had a flouncy whiff - maybe he just wants to celebrate?

104 freetoken  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:42:44pm

re: #77 vbspurs

As I intimated earlier, if I wanted this kind of feedback from forum colleagues, I'd go to Politico or HuffPo.

Sorry guys. I'm outties to celebrate with real conservatives. Catch you later.

Oh dear... there goes that "real" adjective again, rearing it's head... soon its twin "true" may show up.

105 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:42:56pm

re: #92 soxfan4life

Not really sure what type of conservatives you are looking for. I'm a big time fiscal conservative, but the social conservative agenda is just downright foolish.

Same here.

106 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:43:20pm

re: #102 WindUpBird

It means someone doesn't want to give gay people equal goddamn rights.

So does President Obama fall into that category?

107 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:43:41pm

re: #95 cliffster

What exactly does "anti-gay" mean?

oh, you know, denying people equal rights because they happen to have born a different way than you? there should only be 1 class of citizen in America.

108 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:44:06pm

Reminder: the last time a Dem won the 23rd?

1871.

109 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:44:23pm

re: #99 soxfan4life

And Dollar Bill Jefferson in Louisiana

I want Bill Jefferson in prison.

Surprised?

110 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:44:25pm

re: #102 WindUpBird

It means someone doesn't want to give gay people equal goddamn rights.

They are taking away rights for gays? I didn't know that.

111 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:44:35pm

re: #102 WindUpBird

It means someone doesn't want to give gay people equal goddamn rights.

What kind of rights?

112 arethusa  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:44:38pm

re: #100 NJDhockeyfan


10:33 -- With 40% reporting, Owens (D) is leading Hoffman 50%-45%. A lot depends on what precincts are in and what precincts are not. If the remaining precincts are in the Syracuse area, and the Northeast is in, then its OK for Hoffman. Otherwise, its bad news for the conservative. In other news, the gay marriage question is still neck-in-neck in Maine, with the "legislature got it right" answer on top.

Syracuse is in Oswego County, which is only 17% in, and tilting Hoffman, on lawhawk's link.

113 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:44:42pm

re: #86 vbspurs

Yes, sadly. I did hear from my friends of the left-ward shift of LGF. Oh sorry, I mean Big Tent Shift. But it's just not my cuppa on LGF. For that I have other websites to go to and do.

Nice to see you though, RdT!!

oh, vb - you seem to be moving into "flounce" territory.

114 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:44:47pm

re: #106 soxfan4life

So does President Obama fall into that category?

No. Because wanting to give gay people MORE rights (civil unions) is not anti-gay! Why is this hard to comprehend?

115 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:44:52pm

re: #95 cliffster

What exactly does "anti-gay" mean?

Well, I think voting to repeal a law that made same sex marriage legal is anti gay. Voting that way can only be an active act to oppose a law giving homosexuals rights. Agree with the law or not, it seems anti-gay to me.

116 Gus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:44:55pm

re: #108 iceweasel

Reminder: the last time a Dem won the 23rd?

1871.

Scozzafava would have been in the lead right now.

117 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:45:00pm

re: #107 rollwave87

oh, you know, denying people equal rights because they happen to have born a different way than you? there should only be 1 class of citizen in America.

You assume I'm not gay.

118 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:45:03pm

re: #107 rollwave87

oh, you know, denying people equal rights because they happen to have born a different way than you? there should only be 1 class of citizen in America.

What rights afforded to everyone by the Constitution are the GLBT community being denied?

119 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:45:09pm

re: #109 austin_blue

I want Bill Jefferson in prison.

Surprised?

As well as some of his colleagues and family members

120 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:45:14pm

re: #111 cliffster

What kind of rights?

The same ones straight people take for granted.

121 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:45:29pm

re: #86 vbspurs

it's still largely pro GOP - and most of the posters have the GOP's best interests at heart - its just that they don't line up with what Beck, Malkin, Rushbo and Bachmann want the GOP to be.

There are genuinely left wing/liberal posters here now, but the quality of debate has been very good.

Ditto'ism is sooo 2008 ;-)

.

122 freetoken  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:45:36pm

re: #112 arethusa

That newspaper hasn't updated that page for an hour, though.

123 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:45:43pm

re: #108 iceweasel

Redistricting changes the mapping for NY-23, so that's not entirely comparable.

124 TheMatrix31  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:45:43pm

re: #106 soxfan4life

So does President Obama fall into that category?

LOL! Awesome.

125 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:46:07pm

re: #116 Gus 802

Scozzafava would have been in the lead right now.

Yup.
Hey how are you? All moved or still moving? Hope it's going ok

126 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:46:10pm

I started out on burgundy
But soon I hit the harder stuff
Everybody said they'd stand behind me
When the game got rough
But the joke was on me
There was nobody even there to call my bluff
I'm going back to New York City
I do believe I've had enough

Just seems vaguely apropos, somehow...

127 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:46:15pm

re: #109 austin_blue

I want Bill Jefferson in prison.

Surprised?

We all should want that, except for maybe Dollar Bill himself.

128 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:46:19pm

re: #104 freetoken

Oh dear... there goes that "real" adjective again, rearing it's head... soon its twin "true" may show up.

And RINO. It's just stupid.

129 brookly red  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:46:37pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

As well as some of his colleagues and family members

/family prisons? Hmmm, has a nice ring to it...

130 Dionysus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:46:37pm

re: #101 reine.de.tout

Because anyone who uses the term "real X" isn't familiar with logic, and it's the language the far right typically uses. That, and vbspurs engages in historical revisionism regarding Reagan, so concluding that he/she is far right is pretty much a foregone conclusion.

131 freetoken  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:46:59pm

re: #128 BryanS

I wonder if the newly elected governors in NJ and VA will pass the purity test?

132 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:47:02pm

re: #107 rollwave87

oh, you know, denying people equal rights because they happen to have born a different way than you? there should only be 1 class of citizen in America.

Straight, white, and Christian? Like the Founding Fathers?

(guffaw)

133 Gus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:47:10pm

re: #125 iceweasel

Yup.
Hey how are you? All moved or still moving? Hope it's going ok

Hi Ice. Actually, some good news. Might not have to move. Got a job in today and getting enough in advance to pay for two months of rent.

Whew.

Yourself?

134 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:47:18pm

"Anti-gay" is very strong terminology. It should be used responsibly.

135 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:47:35pm

With 63 percent in the gap's getting too wide to close by any means but overwhelming majority in the remaining thirty some percent.

N.Y. District 23
N.Y. District 23 Candidate Party Votes Pct.
Bill Owens Dem. 46,646 49.3%
Doug Hoffman Con. 42,958 45.4
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 4,989 5.3

I'm calling it now for Owens

136 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:47:40pm

re: #123 lawhawk

Redistricting changes the mapping for NY-23, so that's not entirely comparable.

Good point. But still, Scozzafava would have won it, as Gus points out.

137 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:47:46pm

re: #96 WindUpBird

How often do you vote for actual real live Democrats on the local level? Just curious. I vote mostly Democrat, but I voted for Gordon Brown this last election, and I've voted for Rs in the past. Because I'm not afraid of liberalism OR conservatism.

Wind Up Bird -

Here in Monmouth County, NJ - I did JUST THAT today at the County Level.
The (D) Candidate for Freeholder (Freeloader?) was so far superior I felt I had No Choice but to vote for him.

-S-

138 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:47:57pm

re: #133 Gus 802

Congratulations!
Hope it all goes well!!!
{Gus}

139 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:48:09pm

re: #133 Gus 802

Hi Ice. Actually, some good news. Might not have to move. Got a job in today and getting enough in advance to pay for two months of rent.

Whew.

Yourself?

Awesome! Congrats!!!

140 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:48:09pm

re: #128 BryanS

And RINO. It's just stupid.

And its self-destructive to boot.

141 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:48:15pm

re: #114 WindUpBird

No. Because wanting to give gay people MORE rights (civil unions) is not anti-gay! Why is this hard to comprehend?

I don't see him making good on his promises to end don't ask don't tell or to repeal DOMA. That might make some consider him anti-gay

142 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:48:46pm

re: #111 cliffster

What kind of rights?

Are you freaking kidding?

Equal rights under the Constitution with all other citizens.

Pretty basic, right?

143 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:49:00pm

re: #118 soxfan4life

What rights afforded to everyone by the Constitution are the GLBT community being denied?

DUE PROCESS, EQUAL PROTECTION come to mind...the constitution doesn't say schools need to be integrated but we seem to have come around on that idea...

144 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:49:28pm

re: #136 iceweasel

Scozzafava may have won the district.

Bloomberg has moved ahead and looks to win 52-48 over Thompson in NYC. AP called it for Bloomberg. That's $100 million spent to get the win.

145 Gus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:49:44pm

re: #138 Floral Giraffe

Congratulations!
Hope it all goes well!!!
{Gus}

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

Awesome! Congrats!!!

Thank you. Let me tell you. This was stressful. Have to call in to the property owners in the morning. I was really in a tough spot. Made a bunch of phone calls to old clients this afternoon and landed one that needed some work done.

146 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:49:45pm

I think that the Republican victories, coupled with Hoffman losing, would be considered pretty much running the tables for right-minded GOP folks.

Again though, still not getting worked up about NY23 results yet. Give me 10 minutes :)

147 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:49:48pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

As well as some of his colleagues and family members

Let's get the obvious felon first, shall we? Then go for the rest.

148 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:50:02pm

re: #131 freetoken

I wonder if the newly elected governors in NJ and VA will pass the purity test?

They won't--certainly Christie in NJ won't pass. And that's friggin' stupid. Just like all the crap some on the right give Senator Snowe. Really, what other Republican would Maine send to the Senate?

149 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:50:26pm

I am surprised NYC is as close as it's looking. Did Thompson run a particularly good campaign or is Bloomberg unpopular?

150 keithgabryelski  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:50:35pm

re: #77 vbspurs

As I intimated earlier, if I wanted this kind of feedback from forum colleagues, I'd go to Politico or HuffPo.

Sorry guys. I'm outties to celebrate with real conservatives. Catch you later.

because engaging someone who does not hold all of your own opinions is too difficult?

It amazes me the Republicans could take on far right fringe in the form of:

1) anti-abortion fanatics that advocate killing doctors
2) gun nuts that have no issues with holding loaded weapons along with signs that suggest the assassination of a sitting president
3) religious fundamentalists that must force their own views on everyone else in this country such that the word SCIENCE has been redefined in some schools

all this to win elections over the last decades, with little complaints as far as I could see.

But when seemingly reasonable right-of-center but left of YOU attempt to engage in conversation and the hopes for the future of the Republican party (and conservatism), you shut them down and say you're going to go play in a better sandbox with better "conservatives".

/not right-of-center
/not conservative
/but I can smell bullshit from fifty yards blindfolded.

151 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:50:37pm

re: #144 lawhawk

Scozzafava may have won the district.

Bloomberg has moved ahead and looks to win 52-48 over Thompson in NYC. AP called it for Bloomberg. That's $100 million spent to get the win.

Scozzafava would have won without Hoffman, don't kid yourself.

152 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:50:42pm

re: #145 Gus 802

Glad your situation has improved.

153 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:50:49pm

re: #142 austin_blue

Are you freaking kidding?

Equal rights under the Constitution with all other citizens.

Pretty basic, right?

I've gotten several very similar responses to the question. Why so shy about being specific? What rights?

154 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:50:51pm

re: #111 cliffster

What kind of rights?

Right to marry (which includes all kinds of rights and benefits)
Rights conferred on death of spouse
Right to adopt
Right to be a foster parent
Equal rights regarding custody
Visitation rights in hospitals

This isn't hard stuff to find, man. HRC has tons of information at your fingertips, with a couple mouse clicks.

155 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:50:52pm

I am so progressive. You would not believe how freaking progressive I am.

156 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:51:10pm

re: #14 Racer X

Loved that movie!!!

157 Dionysus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:51:40pm

The center-right republican Christie took a blue state, and the conservative party candidate is looking to lose a red district in new york.

The lesson looks obvious, but I have a feeling the "true" conservatives will overlook it completely, and I'll be forced to vote dem and third party again. I say this as someone who was going McCain (even voted for him in the primary) and then after his run to the right and Palin selection ended up voting Obama.

158 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:51:53pm

re: #135 Thanos

Wow, still pretty close.

159 brookly red  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:52:04pm

re: #149 HappyWarrior

I am surprised NYC is as close as it's looking. Did Thompson run a particularly good campaign or is Bloomberg unpopular?

I hate Bloomberg more than anyone else I have ever voted for...

160 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:52:15pm

re: #133 Gus 802

Hi Ice. Actually, some good news. Might not have to move. Got a job in today and getting enough in advance to pay for two months of rent.

Whew.

Yourself?

Wow! That is terrific news! So happy for you! I thought you were stuck moving out this week. Glad to hear things are hopeful.

I'm radiant, thanks for asking!

BTW, Watertown mayor just called it folks:

SARANAC LAKE, NY – I caught Watertown, NY Mayor Jeff Graham, who endorsed Doug Hoffman this weekend, looking very glum at Doug Hoffman’s election party. I asked him what happened in Jefferson County, where Watertown is located, and where Democrat Bill Owens is leading the vote.

“We lost,” said Graham. “The Scozzafava endorsement, the [Watertown Daily Times] endorsement of Owens–I mean, they roughed Hoffman up.”

Could Hoffman still pull out a win? Graham grimaced. “It’s over.”

161 Gus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:52:25pm

re: #152 Floral Giraffe

Glad your situation has improved.

Yeah, I have to stay on the ball.

Hope I get the clearance on staying but the money will be coming back in. Of course, now I'm all packed.

162 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:52:40pm

re: #134 cliffster

"Anti-gay" is very strong terminology. It should be used responsibly.

these are civil rights we're talking about here. this isn't a damn budget referendum. these are people's lives we're talking about. so no, I won't use watered down terminology. I'll call it as I see it. and I see the people voting yes on question 1 in Maine as bigots on the wrong side of history. that too strong for you as well?

163 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:52:53pm

re: #141 soxfan4life

I don't see him making good on his promises to end don't ask don't tell or to repeal DOMA. That might make some consider him anti-gay

So the perfect is the enemy of the good! Obama must do EVERYTHING IMMEDIATELY RIGHT NOW PERFECTLY or else he's anti-gay! Give me a break, this ludicrous. He is not "anti-gay" at all, in any way.

164 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:52:57pm

re: #154 WindUpBird

Right to marry (which includes all kinds of rights and benefits)
Rights conferred on death of spouse
Right to adopt
Right to be a foster parent
Equal rights regarding custody
Visitation rights in hospitals

This isn't hard stuff to find, man. HRC has tons of information at your fingertips, with a couple mouse clicks.

Thank you for actually laying out some specifics. I appreciate it. All of those are true, in my opinion. Disagreeing on some of them, though, does not make you anti-gay. Again, "anti-gay" is very strong language.

165 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:53:30pm

re: #131 freetoken

the new governor of Virginias thesis made for some quite chilling reading. guy was no callow youth when he wrote it either - he was 34

166 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:53:31pm

re: #158 Killgore Trout

Wow, still pretty close.

Not close enough for Hoffman to win, 87 pct in:

N.Y. District 23
N.Y. District 23 Candidate Party Votes Pct.
Bill Owens Dem. 47,826 49.1%
Doug Hoffman Con. 44,349 45.5
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 5,294 5.4

167 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:53:32pm

re: #134 cliffster

"Anti-gay" is very strong terminology. It should be used responsibly.

Oh yes, you're very concerned.

168 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:53:33pm

re: #162 rollwave87

these are civil rights we're talking about here. this isn't a damn budget referendum. these are people's lives we're talking about. so no, I won't use watered down terminology. I'll call it as I see it. and I see the people voting yes on question 1 in Maine as bigots on the wrong side of history. that too strong for you as well?

I'm against gay marriage. Does that make me 'anti gay'?

169 freetoken  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:53:40pm

re: #148 BryanS

Christie strikes me as someone who will do that dreaded "c" word ("compromise") on various issues of lesser importance to him for the sake of accomplishing one or two really important goals. Just like politics ought to be. Hopefully Christie will be able to bring to NJ a cleaner - less corrupt, political atmosphere.

170 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:54:00pm

re: #153 cliffster

I've gotten several very similar responses to the question. Why so shy about being specific? What rights?

The right to the benefits that a Civil Marriage license grants to the rest of the consenting adults that apply for one.

Shy? Here's shy. Would would you deny?

171 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:54:08pm

re: #143 rollwave87

So it's a living document then. Say no more. The Constitution is designed to limit the power of government thus empowering all people, not empower the government to dictate our behavior.

172 Gus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:54:23pm

re: #160 iceweasel

I was supposed to move out on Oct. 31st. I extended it to tomorrow. I asked for another week today and then an hour later I made the call that got me the work so I have to call them back to let them know I got the dough coming in soon!

173 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:54:32pm

NY-23: Watertown Mayor: ‘It’s Over’


SARANAC LAKE, NY – I caught Watertown, NY Mayor Jeff Graham, who endorsed Doug Hoffman this weekend, looking very glum at Doug Hoffman’s election party. I asked him what happened in Jefferson County, where Watertown is located, and where Democrat Bill Owens is leading the vote.

“We lost,” said Graham. “The Scozzafava endorsement, the [Watertown Daily Times] endorsement of Owens–I mean, they roughed Hoffman up.”

Could Hoffman still pull out a win? Graham grimaced. “It’s over.”

174 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:55:04pm

re: #166 Thanos

Yeah Looks like game over.

175 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:55:07pm

re: #166 Thanos

Not close enough for Hoffman to win, 87 pct in:

N.Y. District 23
N.Y. District 23 Candidate Party Votes Pct.
Bill Owens Dem. 47,826 49.1%
Doug Hoffman Con. 44,349 45.5
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 5,294 5.4

Must concur with your assessment. Still, none of those three was actually good. Two were for Card check, and Hoffman was in bed with RSM. Pity they couldn't all have lost.

176 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:55:11pm

10:45 -- Apparently Syracuse area is coming in. I think Hoffman's probably going to lose. --SEAN TRENDE

10:42 -- Hoffman's in real trouble in upstate New York. He'd have to carry the remaining portion of the district with about 54% of the two-party vote in order to win. Its frustrating not knowing where the remaining votes are located. --SEAN TRENDE

177 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:55:17pm

re: #167 WindUpBird

Oh yes, you're very concerned.

Actually, I am. I believe strongly that gay people should not have rights taken away from them on the basis of their sexuality. I have personal reasons for feeling this way.

178 Gus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:55:27pm

re: #166 Thanos

Not close enough for Hoffman to win, 87 pct in:

N.Y. District 23
N.Y. District 23 Candidate Party Votes Pct.
Bill Owens Dem. 47,826 49.1%
Doug Hoffman Con. 44,349 45.5
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 5,294 5.4

87 percent in already? That was quick.

179 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:55:38pm

re: #172 Gus 802

A good landlord, will be grateful to be able to keep a good tenant.
Yours sounds like a good one, from the extensions.

180 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:55:45pm

re: #14 Racer X

I am not a Democrat.
I am not a Republican.

I am a meat popsicle.

Especially to a T Rex.

181 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:55:53pm

re: #170 austin_blue

The right to the benefits that a Civil Marriage license grants to the rest of the consenting adults that apply for one.

Shy? Here's shy. Would would you deny?

Ack! First Would = What.

Pimf,

but pissed as an excuse.

182 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:55:53pm

re: #156 Rightwingconspirator

Loved that movie!!!

Level ten coolness.

183 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:55:53pm

re: #166 Thanos

Not close enough for Hoffman to win, 87 pct in:

N.Y. District 23
N.Y. District 23 Candidate Party Votes Pct.
Bill Owens Dem. 47,826 49.1%
Doug Hoffman Con. 44,349 45.5
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 5,294 5.4

That should read 67% of the vote in, not 87

184 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:56:10pm

re: #155 Racer X

I am so progressive. You would not believe how freaking progressive I am.

Do you play in 17/8 time? Do you have a double-neck Gibson? Is there a gong behind your drummer's kit? Are their hovering mountains on your album cover? Are individual tracks on your latest record over eleven minutes long? Are your lyrics about casting spells, Ayn Rand plots, spaceships and Rasputin?

Then you might be progressive!

185 freetoken  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:56:12pm

re: #173 Killgore Trout

NY-23: Watertown Mayor: ‘It’s Over’


...I mean, they roughed Hoffman up.”

More victim-speak from the company of revanchists.

186 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:56:20pm

re: #164 cliffster

Thank you for actually laying out some specifics. I appreciate it. All of those are true, in my opinion. Disagreeing on some of them, though, does not make you anti-gay. Again, "anti-gay" is very strong language.

It is strong language, but the vote in Maine--what we're talking about still, I think--was about repealing a right that was codified in law. Taking that away still feels anti-gay to me.

187 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:56:45pm

re: #178 Gus 802

67

188 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:57:22pm

re: #184 WindUpBird

Do you play in 17/8 time? Do you have a double-neck Gibson? Is there a gong behind your drummer's kit? Are their hovering mountains on your album cover? Are individual tracks on your latest record over eleven minutes long? Are your lyrics about casting spells, Ayn Rand plots, spaceships and Rasputin?

Then you might be progressive!

I am all that, and much, much more.

189 TheQuis  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:57:23pm

re: #118 soxfan4life

What rights afforded to everyone by the Constitution are the GLBT community being denied?

Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness

190 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:57:30pm

re: #177 cliffster

Actually, I am. I believe strongly that gay people should not have rights taken away from them on the basis of their sexuality. I have personal reasons for feeling this way.

Do you believe we should have equal rights to marry people of our own gender and receive all the benefits conferred federally and state-wide by marriage?

191 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:57:33pm
192 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:57:47pm

Yep, I might need to make a retraction, I had my glasses off, it's 67 pct reporting. I'll stand by my call however.

193 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:57:51pm

re: #169 freetoken

Christie strikes me as someone who will do that dreaded "c" word ("compromise") on various issues of lesser importance to him for the sake of accomplishing one or two really important goals. Just like politics ought to be. Hopefully Christie will be able to bring to NJ a cleaner - less corrupt, political atmosphere.

Agreed. Hopefully, at a minimum, he can reign in the excesses a nearly one party state will have.

194 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:57:51pm

re: #172 Gus 802

I was supposed to move out on Oct. 31st. I extended it to tomorrow. I asked for another week today and then an hour later I made the call that got me the work so I have to call them back to let them know I got the dough coming in soon!

I'm very glad your situation has changed for the better. Much easier to just unpack right where you are than pack it all into a car and move it all somewhere else.

I'm just ornery enough, though, given what you told us earlier about having lived there for a long while and being a reliable tenant, etc., I would probably give serious thought to finding another place and moving out anyhow. Let 'em find another reliable tenant.

195 Gus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:58:08pm

re: #179 Floral Giraffe

A good landlord, will be grateful to be able to keep a good tenant.
Yours sounds like a good one, from the extensions.

I worked for the architect that owned the building I'm in at one time. Also for his nephew. The architect had been ill for a while and passed away two weeks ago. Plus I've been here for 8 years and rarely ask them for news things -- like replacing the carpet and such.

196 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:58:10pm

re: #169 freetoken

That would be a start. There's a laundry list of things that the state needs to clean up. Highest tax burden in the nation for starters. The corruption. The underfunded pension obligations. Out of control state spending.

You name it; New Jersey's mess has it.

And now Christie needs to step up and get something done to fix the mess.

197 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:58:20pm

re: #162 rollwave87

these are civil rights we're talking about here. this isn't a damn budget referendum. these are people's lives we're talking about. so no, I won't use watered down terminology. I'll call it as I see it. and I see the people voting yes on question 1 in Maine as bigots on the wrong side of history. that too strong for you as well?

You react however you like, and I respect that. Personally, I would be careful about taking one slice of one topic, and defining people by that one slice. You would probably be surprised how much I agree with you on the issues, just not on the labels.

198 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:58:23pm

re: #191 rollwave87

Waaay harsh there. Over The Top

199 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:58:23pm

68% in
48403 49% Owens
44893 46% Hoffman

200 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:58:33pm

re: #191 rollwave87

That is a disgusting post. Shame on you.

201 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:59:05pm
202 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:59:09pm

re: #190 WindUpBird

Do you believe we should have equal rights to marry people of our own gender and receive all the benefits conferred federally and state-wide by marriage?

I don't believe in "marriage" by the state, straight or gay.

203 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:59:27pm
They have written that Johnson must “hate America” and is “infused with Derangement Syndrome.”

How bizarre, that when one is justifiably critical of a completely deranged, bircher loving conspiracy monger like Beck, they get labeled as having "Derangement Syndrome".

Irony is dead.

204 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:59:32pm
205 Gus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:00:02pm

re: #194 reine.de.tout

I'm very glad your situation has changed for the better. Much easier to just unpack right where you are than pack it all into a car and move it all somewhere else.

I'm just ornery enough, though, given what you told us earlier about having lived there for a long while and being a reliable tenant, etc., I would probably give serious thought to finding another place and moving out anyhow. Let 'em find another reliable tenant.

True and I was thinking along the same lines. The rent will still be high. I did however mess my credit rating up over the years and I might find it hard getting a new place. Having to start all over again and a couple of other things.

206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:00:04pm

re: #4 freetoken

/☔

dripping sarcasm ding

207 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:00:11pm

191 = Pffft!

208 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:00:11pm

re: #200 NJDhockeyfan

That is a disgusting post. Shame on you.

yeah, it sucks being called out as a bigot. you know what the easy solution to that is? don't be one.

209 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:00:17pm

re: #189 TheQuis

Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness

Oh, are homosexuals and Transgenders executed on the spot. Those words are from the Declaration of Independence anyway.

210 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:00:37pm

re: #208 rollwave87

Now stop it. Thats just not right.

211 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:01:15pm

re: #118 soxfan4life

What rights afforded to everyone by the Constitution are the GLBT community being denied?

Yes yes. We know. I have the right to marry a woman, because it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Hur hur. Everyone is equal, but some people are more equal than others. I think gay people right now are currently a bit more than 3/5ths of a person. Maybe 7/8ths.

The Constitution is not the whole of the law of the land. That's why there are also laws! And courts!

212 TheMatrix31  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:01:22pm

re: #208 rollwave87

Get the fuck out of here.

213 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:01:33pm

re: #195 Gus 802

8 years is a REALLY GOOD TENANT.
See Reine's #194.
A good tenant is really hard to find.
My landlord was bending over backwards, when I told him I was leaving after 15 years.

214 brookly red  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:01:55pm

re: #212 TheMatrix31

Get the fuck out of here.

I second.

215 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:02:00pm

re: #208 rollwave87

You have serious issues.

216 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:02:18pm

re: #202 cliffster

I don't believe in "marriage" by the state, straight or gay.

Irrelevant. It is settled law and settled culture. There is this thing called marriage, and it confers rights. And gay people should have those rights.

217 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:02:20pm

Corzines concession speech: FIGHT FOR LABOR FIGHT FOR HEALTHCARE seems like it was a bit of a reflection of President Obama.
HAHAHAHA Thanks for Daggett he says

218 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:02:29pm

re: #209 soxfan4life

Oh, are homosexuals and Transgenders executed on the spot. Those words are from the Declaration of Independence anyway.

is that your standard? as long as we don't kill people for being gay, then they have enough rights? what the hell?

219 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:02:49pm

re: #212 TheMatrix31

Get the fuck out of here.

I am rolling my eyes at your righteousness. Observe! 9_9

220 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:03:58pm

Is someone having a melt-down?

221 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:04:16pm

is there an uptodate online count for Ny23?

CNN is frozen at 21%

222 TheMatrix31  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:04:20pm

re: #219 WindUpBird

What?

223 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:04:23pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Is someone having a melt-down?

I think that's being generous.

224 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:04:25pm

re: #209 soxfan4life

Oh, are homosexuals and Transgenders executed on the spot. Those words are from the Declaration of Independence anyway.

Hey, thanks for not advocating for my execution. I appreciate it.

225 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:04:26pm

10:58 -- Things aren't as great for Democrats in upstate NY as I thought. Clinton, Essex and Franklin counties, the Democratic strongholds, are largely in. Fulton County, which went for McCain with 54% of the vote, isn't in yet. Lewis County, another 54% McCain county is still out. On the other hand, St. Lawrence County, a 58% Obama County, is only half in. I guess it depends what happens in those counties and in the remainder of Oswego County. Still not great news for Hoffman, though. --SEAN TRENDE

226 avanti  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:04:34pm

re: #204 iceweasel

Whoa dude...I like you and normally agree with you, but I think that wasn't very fair to NJDhf there. IMO.

Yep, way over the top IMHO. I am not for gay marriage, but for civil unions. I would not vote to repeal the Maine law though, and my opinion about gay marriage puzzles even me. Something about respect for a religious tradition by a agnostic I guess.

227 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:04:50pm

re: #221 wozzablog

71% in, Hoffman down by 4000 votes

228 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:04:51pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Is someone having a melt-down?

Yes, a few are.

229 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:04:54pm

re: #134 cliffster

"Anti-gay" is very strong terminology. It should be used responsibly.

Like "racist". Promiscuous over-usage in recent decades has robbed it of the heft it needs, when the real thing appears.

230 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:05:25pm

re: #208 rollwave87

WTF? He isn't being one. C'mon.

231 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:05:36pm

re: #183 RogueOne

That should read 67% of the vote in, not 87

Correct, and thanks. I had my glasses off

232 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:05:42pm

re: #216 WindUpBird

Irrelevant. It is settled law and settled culture. There is this thing called marriage, and it confers rights. And gay people should have those rights.

Yep.

233 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:05:54pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Is someone having a melt-down?

The usual "if someone is against issue 'X', then they are most certainly a KKK racist!"

Pathetic.

234 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:06:09pm

re: #226 avanti

Yep, way over the top IMHO. I am not for gay marriage, but for civil unions. I would not vote to repeal the Maine law though, and my opinion about gay marriage puzzles even me. Something about respect for a religious tradition by a agnostic I guess.

Upding! I agree wholeheartedly.

You must be 'anti-gay'! //

235 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:06:27pm

re: #215 NJDhockeyfan

You have serious issues.

His issue is he's angry. I'm getting angry too, I'm just trying to keep from leaking it all over LGF.

236 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:06:29pm

re: #231 Thanos

Correct, and thanks. I had my glasses off

I'm here to help buddy ;)

237 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:06:35pm

re: #218 rollwave87

is that your standard? as long as we don't kill people for being gay, then they have enough rights? what the hell?

No it was about life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness, notice it doesn't guarantee happiness. Personally I have no problem with same sex marriage, and if it becomes the law so be it. My problem is with being people being called anti-gay because they feel strongly enough to vote against gay "marriage". Marriage is a time honored tradition that has always stood for the union of 1 man and 1 woman. Why not go for the civil union with the same benefits as marriage.

238 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:07:00pm

re: #226 avanti

Yep, way over the top IMHO. I am not for gay marriage, but for civil unions. I would not vote to repeal the Maine law though, and my opinion about gay marriage puzzles even me. Something about respect for a religious tradition by a agnostic I guess.

Avanti, I agree with you 100% on this entire post.

There are bigots who for bigoted reasons are against gay marriage.

Then there are people who prefer what you just suggested, who are not bigots in any way.

And I'm surprised to see people being characterized as "bigoted" for simply having a point of view - once explained, we might see some bigotry, but NJDHockeyFan has not explained his position and so we don't really know yet whether it's from bigotry or some other reason.

239 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:07:06pm

re: #233 Racer X

The usual "if someone is against issue 'X', then they are most certainly a KKK racist!"

Pathetic.

Hyperbolic much?

240 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:07:24pm

re: #235 WindUpBird

Don't leak on me, bro!

241 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:07:28pm

re: #220 MandyManners

Is someone having a melt-down?

I prescribe Shakespeare.

242 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:07:32pm

re: #235 WindUpBird

*hands WupBird a tissue.

243 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:08:34pm

re: #226 avanti

Yep, way over the top IMHO. I am not for gay marriage, but for civil unions. I would not vote to repeal the Maine law though, and my opinion about gay marriage puzzles even me. Something about respect for a religious tradition by a agnostic I guess.

Ehh...holding beliefs simply because it is tradition is a bad reason to hold them.

244 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:08:35pm

Well, Google ads is right on topic... first thing I see when I open the page tonight ' Could your husband be gay? Take the test! '
///

245 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:09:12pm

re: #237 soxfan4life

No it was about life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness, notice it doesn't guarantee happiness. Personally I have no problem with same sex marriage, and if it becomes the law so be it. My problem is with being people being called anti-gay because they feel strongly enough to vote against gay "marriage". Marriage is a time honored tradition that has always stood for the union of 1 man and 1 woman. Why not go for the civil union with the same benefits as marriage.


The time-honored tradition argument doesn't fly with me. There are many time-honored traditions that cultures abandon over time because we become more enlightened.

246 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:09:27pm

re: #235 WindUpBird

His issue is he's angry. I'm getting angry too, I'm just trying to keep from leaking it all over LGF.

Not everyone who has a different point of view from you is a "bigot".
You need to settle down and listen to his reasons before you decide you're angry.
Wouldn't you expect the same of any of us toward you?

247 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:09:29pm

re: #239 MandyManners

Hyperbolic much?

Much!

248 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:09:38pm

re: #233 Racer X

The usual "if someone is against issue 'X', then they are most certainly a KKK racist!"

Pathetic.

Concur. It's the same sort of wording wingnuts use to shut down discussion, only said from the left side of the aisle. Still inflammatory, still wrong.

249 avanti  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:09:58pm

re: #234 NJDhockeyfan

Upding! I agree wholeheartedly.

You must be 'anti-gay'! //

If I were anti-gay, I'd make marriage mandatory. :)

250 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:10:14pm

re: #245 WindUpBird

The time-honored tradition argument doesn't fly with me. There are many time-honored traditions that cultures abandon over time because we become more enlightened.

True.
But people who hold them ARE NOT NECESSARILY BIGOTS.

251 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:10:43pm

re: #249 avanti

If I were anti-gay, I'd make marriage mandatory. :)

Upding!

LOL!

252 sngnsgt  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:11:06pm

Waaay OT:

Anyone know someone with Epilepsy?

253 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:11:25pm

re: #235 WindUpBird

His issue is he's angry. I'm getting angry too, I'm just trying to keep from leaking it all over LGF.


damn straight im angry. you're gonna diminish the relationship that me and my boyfriend share, tell us we're not entitled to be married, tell us that our lives aren't hard enough already coming out to parents, friends, etc...you're gonna kick a historically discriminated against segment of the populace down, and then when you get called out for it, tell me I should get out of here and am being extreme? have we gone down the rabbit hole...and landed in Saudi Arabia?

Is it that extreme to assume that someone who opposes gay marriage now would have opposed interracial marriage 50 years ago? that's my point. putting bigotry in the proper perspective. so screw you all if you think im being the douche here.

254 arethusa  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:12:30pm

re: #221 wozzablog

is there an uptodate online count for Ny23?

CNN is frozen at 21%

The Saratogian (scroll down). It's really slow reloading, though.

255 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:12:34pm

re: #245 WindUpBird

The time-honored tradition argument doesn't fly with me. There are many time-honored traditions that cultures abandon over time because we become more enlightened.

So it's all or nothing. Good luck to you on that.

256 TheMatrix31  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:13:02pm

re: #253 rollwave87

Alright fuck off then.

257 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:13:16pm
258 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:13:23pm

re: #245 WindUpBird

The time-honored tradition argument doesn't fly with me. There are many time-honored traditions that cultures abandon over time because we become more enlightened.

Quite frankly I don't understand the marriage thing at all. Really I don't understand it. To me, marriage is religious more than legal. Legally a civil union is the same thing (or is it?)
It always struck me as being akin to wanting to eat kosher pork.
Now if there is a religion that does support gay marriage, then so be it, go do it, get a civil marriage and a religiously ordained marriage.

259 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:13:35pm

re: #237 soxfan4life

not always. we are just talking about christian pmarriage post 1750 or so here... even since then it hasn't always been for love.

marriages used to be about property, arranged while the bride and groom were embryos... people voting against gay marriage in favour of "traditional" marriage do wo with all the baggae that comes with the tradition.

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:13:59pm

re: #246 reine.de.tout

Not everyone who has a different point of view from you is a "bigot".
You need to settle down and listen to his reasons before you decide you're angry.
Wouldn't you expect the same of any of us toward you?

I don't think I'm calling anyone a bigot? Bigot is sort of this on-off binary harsh term. I believe there are many different levels and flavors of "anti-gay". That perhaps do not rise to the level of bigotry, but would be considered mild discrimination. People who are okay with state civil unions but not federal, that's mild. People who think that gay people are not suitable for adopting children, not so mild at all.

261 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:14:03pm

re: #208 rollwave87

yeah, it sucks being called out as a bigot. you know what the easy solution to that is? don't be one.

Bigot, n, a person who wins an argument with a liberal.

262 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:14:10pm

I used be be a "Civil Union" Republican until I researched the issue pretty deeply. While various religions do sanctify marriage in various manners, official marriage has always been a civil affair. The license, penalties, benefits, and methods of dissolution are all done by civil authorities and laws, not Religious authorities and laws. Ship captains and Justices of the peace can perform marriages.
So that was one reason, differences between "Civil Unions" and Marriage are word mincing when you look at the law and which authorities hold sway over marriages.
The second was Federal code: Civil Unions are not granted Fed benefits. So a child of a Gay couple who has one parent die is hosed when it comes to benefits at Federal level. That's why I am solidly pro gay marriage.

263 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:14:10pm

re: #253 rollwave87

You need to get a hold of yourself. We are all adults here and LGF is a great place to debate. To lash out and call people names because you disagree with their point of view makes you look like a fool.

264 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:14:38pm

Christie coming to the podium for his winning...

265 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:14:47pm

REJECT SAME-SEX MARRIAGE LAW 51% in
Yes 155361 50.31%
No 153453 49.69%

[Link: www.bangordailynews.com...]

2000 votes out of 300,000. damn close

266 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:14:56pm

re: #255 soxfan4life

So it's all or nothing. Good luck to you on that.

On accepting beliefs simply because it is a tradition? I'm pretty much in favor of not accepting that as a good reason for absolutely anything. It's a horrible reason.

267 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:14:56pm

BRUUUCE is gonna be pissed. Playing Born to Run at Christie's HQ.

268 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:15:01pm

re: #252 sngnsgt

My eleven year old golden retriever. Mild and controlled.

269 Irenicum  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:15:23pm

re: #252 sngnsgt

Over the years several. Why?

270 WinterCat  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:15:24pm

re: #257 lawhawk

I read that 23 is having problems with their voting machines in one of their largest districts. This could delay accurate results till tomorrow according to that report.

271 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:15:31pm

re: #253 rollwave87

damn straight im angry. you're gonna diminish the relationship that me and my boyfriend share, tell us we're not entitled to be married, tell us that our lives aren't hard enough already coming out to parents, friends, etc...you're gonna kick a historically discriminated against segment of the populace down, and then when you get called out for it, tell me I should get out of here and am being extreme? have we gone down the rabbit hole...and landed in Saudi Arabia?

Is it that extreme to assume that someone who opposes gay marriage now would have opposed interracial marriage 50 years ago? that's my point. putting bigotry in the proper perspective. so screw you all if you think im being the douche here.

Look, I'm completely with you on this, but the reasonable point to make is that the situations are analogous-- not an accusation about how a particular individual would have behaved. Which isnt justified in this case and (as you see) derails the whole discussion into moral indignation over an 'attack' on an individual.
Don't let yourself be provoked into losing your temper.

272 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:15:33pm

re: #250 reine.de.tout

True.
But people who hold them ARE NOT NECESSARILY BIGOTS.

Hey, easy now. I agree with that.

Answer me this, though. Can someone advocate for discrimination, yet not be worthy of the label bigot? I believe they can.

273 Gus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:15:53pm

re: #264 lawhawk

Christie coming to the podium for his winning...

11:00PM EST: Corzine Concedes
November 3, 2009

Corzine just delivered his speech conceding to the Newly Elected Governor of NJ Chris Christie.

[Link: www.theyeshivaworld.com...]

274 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:16:21pm

re: #243 BryanS

Ehh...holding beliefs simply because it is tradition is a bad reason to hold them.

Tradition is the democracy of the dead. -- G. K. Chesterton

275 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:16:28pm

re: #260 WindUpBird

Careful there. Someone might oppose "federal" civil unions because they simply don't think the federal gov't should not be getting involved in the discussion.

276 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:16:43pm

re: #266 BryanS

On accepting beliefs simply because it is a tradition? I'm pretty much in favor of not accepting that as a good reason for absolutely anything. It's a horrible reason.

No on getting the majority of people to accept the idea of same sex marriage.

277 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:16:43pm

re: #253 rollwave87

Yeah, I'm gonna tell you that: You and your boyfriend should not be allowed to call your union "marriage" as a legal term. You may have a civil union, but I believe that the term marriage is to be reserved for unions of a man and a woman. This is what I believe.

278 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:16:44pm

re: #267 jayzee

It's a cover band - and Christie is a huge Bruce fan. But you're right - Bruce definitely isn't going to be happy with an evil GOPer using his music.

279 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:16:45pm

re: #267 jayzee

BRUUUCE is gonna be pissed. Playing Born to Run at Christie's HQ.

He's seen Bruce like 41 times I think. He's a HUGE fan.

280 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:16:54pm

re: #258 jayzee

my own opinion -

Government should not marry people.

Marriage should be religious for those that want it... but churches who refuse "equal protection" for *all* couples of relevent ages seeking to get married should lose tax exempt status.

Government should issue certificates that confer the benefits of coupledom to all that want them... and if people want to build a ceremony around that they can, and still be "married" in a church under the eyes of which ever Deity they have a subscription to

281 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:16:57pm

I just wanna' know who gets to toss the garter.

282 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:17:00pm

Why would those damn liberals out in Kalifornia reject gay marriage?

hmmm?

283 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:17:09pm

re: #262 Thanos


The second was Federal code: Civil Unions are not granted Fed benefits. So a child of a Gay couple who has one parent die is hosed when it comes to benefits at Federal level. That's why I am solidly pro gay marriage.

THIS THISTHIS THISTHIS THISTHIS THISTHIS THISTHIS THIS

EXACTLY THIS. I'd give you all my updings if I could.

284 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:17:24pm

re: #275 cliffster

Careful there. Someone might oppose "federal" civil unions because they simply don't think the federal gov't should not be getting involved in the discussion.

Ding!

285 freetoken  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:18:30pm

re: #253 rollwave87


Is it that extreme to assume that someone who opposes gay marriage now would have opposed interracial marriage 50 years ago?

Possibly. You did put words into NJDh's mouth, so to speak.

OTOH, I do agree with you and Thanos that it is arbitrary to not allow homosexuals to receive the same legal relationship as heterosexual couples. Call it what you will - "marriage", "civil unions", whatever... the idea is that the society recognizes through the law the reality of the contract and puts in place mechanisms to enforce that contract.

286 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:18:33pm

re: #265 RogueOne

REJECT SAME-SEX MARRIAGE LAW 51% in
Yes 155361 50.31%
No 153453 49.69%

[Link: www.bangordailynews.com...]

2000 votes out of 300,000. damn close

Damn, that sucks.

287 sngnsgt  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:18:34pm

re: #269 Irenicum

Over the years several. Why?

Just wondering, I have it real bad. I've let it take control of my life.

288 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:18:41pm

10k absentee ballots remain to be counted in NY-23; that's not going to help Hoffman. Those votes were likely cast before Scozzafava dropped out.

289 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:18:41pm

11:10 -- The remaining ballots will have to break 55% to Hoffman in order for him to win. --SEAN TRENDE

11:09 -- Asked if the White House will weigh in with a statement on tonight's races, a spokesperson replies simply: "No." -- MIKE MEMOLI

11:08 -- Mayor of Watertown says Hoffman has lost. Still some ballots to be counted, but I'd say about a 70% chance Owens is the first Congressman to represent Saint Lawrence and Franklin Counties since the 1850s. --SEAN TRENDE

290 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:18:53pm

re: #280 wozzablog

Government should issue certificates that confer the benefits of coupledom to all that want them... and if people want to build a ceremony around that they can, and still be "married" in a church under the eyes of which ever Deity they have a subscription to

It pisses me off a bit to be agreeing with you, but, well, there it is ;)

291 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:18:55pm

re: #258 jayzee

Quite frankly I don't understand the marriage thing at all. Really I don't understand it. To me, marriage is religious more than legal. Legally a civil union is the same thing (or is it?)
It always struck me as being akin to wanting to eat kosher pork.
Now if there is a religion that does support gay marriage, then so be it, go do it, get a civil marriage and a religiously ordained marriage.

Marriage has multiple bases. Religious is one. The government had codified marriage for a number of reasons--economic, child rearing, etc. There is no reason for government to support marriage just to show it cares about religious institutions. The role of the government therefore is purely civil.

292 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:18:57pm

"Yes We Can!" chant at christies headquarters, HAhahahaha

293 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:19:00pm

re: #278 lawhawk
(A huge fan? See, that Corzine campaign schtick has gotten to you)...///
I'm happy that Corzine couldn't get anywhere using the corpus of Christie as a campaign talking point. What a nasty stunt.

294 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:19:07pm

re: #264 lawhawk

He worked really hard to get a job that is going to be much harder than he thinks it is.

Good luck with that, new Gov.

Those big ole' chairs only look comfy.

295 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:19:15pm

re: #277 Dark_Falcon

Why should it be reserved? Marriage is permitted by civil authorities not religious.

296 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:19:18pm

re: #279 NJDhockeyfan

He's seen Bruce like 41 times I think. He's a HUGE fan.

Christie of Bruce? Yes. Bruce of Christie? Not so much. I like both.

297 WinterCat  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:19:18pm

Love is a very difficult thing to find and hold on to in this world. If two people find it, no matter their gender, and want to be married, I am fine with that.

298 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:20:04pm

Well, looks like this might mean an extra vote for healthcare reform.
/Hooray for Tea Party!

299 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:20:05pm

re: #271 iceweasel

Look, I'm completely with you on this, but the reasonable point to make is that the situations are analogous-- not an accusation about how a particular individual would have behaved. Which isnt justified in this case and (as you see) derails the whole discussion into moral indignation over an 'attack' on an individual.
Don't let yourself be provoked into losing your temper.

ok. that's fair. im 22 and don't quite claim to have mastered the art of debate yet. so i'm sorry for lashing. but it's hard to keep your temper in check when you see someone as denying your basic human rights...telling you you're worth less than someone else...that tends to provoke a strong reaction in people no? but i really didnt intend to turn this into a gay marriage thread. im on LGF tonight cause im amped about Hoffman losing. I guess I assumed more people on here were in favor of gay rights, and was taken aback by the clear reality that this isn't the case.

300 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:20:15pm

re: #262 Thanos

what he said.

301 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:20:16pm

re: #275 cliffster

Careful there. Someone might oppose "federal" civil unions because they simply don't think the federal gov't should not be getting involved in the discussion.

Look. It is a GIVEN that the federal gov will always be involved in marriage. It will ALWAYS BE SO as long as there is a federal government. It's simple fact.

And if you believe that gay people should not have those rights as well, you're advocating for discrimination.

These are facts. This is true. I will not use the word bigot. I will not name call.

But it is a fact that that position is advocating that gay people be discriminated against.

302 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:20:28pm

re: #297 WinterCat

Love is a very difficult thing to find and hold on to in this world. If two people find it, no matter their gender, and want to be married, I am fine with that.

So what's your underage limit?

303 Irenicum  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:20:28pm

re: #287 sngnsgt

I'm so sorry. Are there any meds that have worked for you?

304 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:20:41pm

re: #293 tradewind

Pissed me off to no end.

305 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:20:48pm

re: #293 tradewind

Corpus of Christie? So you're now ragging on his size as being that of a city in Texas, where they do things big? ///

Seriously though, the weight cracks didn't help Corzine any, and Christie's response was pitch perfect.

306 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:20:49pm
307 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:21:13pm

re: #299 rollwave87

Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret.

Ambrose Bierce

308 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:21:14pm

re: #282 Racer X

Why would those damn liberals out in Kalifornia reject gay marriage?

hmmm?

Ever been to San Diego? Ever been to the inland empire? Ever been to California at all?

309 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:21:30pm

Oh well, I'll catch up tomorrow morning. Good night all.

310 WinterCat  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:21:30pm

re: #302 bosforus

I think 18 works.

311 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:21:30pm

re: #292 RogueOne
I bet POTUS is cussing out whoever thought he should go campaign in Joisey.
It's too soon after that last minute dash to Denmark .

312 sngnsgt  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:21:37pm

re: #303 Irenicum

Not well enough, I've taken several over the years and never had much luck.

313 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:21:51pm

re: #290 cliffster

welcome to the dark side... have a cookie ;-)

314 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:21:52pm

re: #272 WindUpBird

Hey, easy now. I agree with that.

Answer me this, though. Can someone advocate for discrimination, yet not be worthy of the label bigot? I believe they can.

When you choose your friends, you have discriminated among people - you like person A for whatever reasons, you dislike person B for whatever reasons.

"Discrimination" happens.

I am being discriminated against. I have a pension from my government job. If my husband were to die, I would never see one cent of his social security. Not a penny, because there is a dollar for dollar offset on Social Security benefits if a person has a government pension, and my pension is just a tad larger than his SS benefit would be. So, . . . we are all "victims" of discrimination at some point or the other. Every one of us. You don't have a special hold on being "discriminated against". I know this, so I am taking steps to make sure I have additional income separate from his social security so that if he dies before I do, I will be OK.

Until civil unions or marriage is allowed for gay people, then you need to take whatever actions, draw up whatever contracts you need to do, to make sure you and your partner are as protected as it's possible to be. Getting angry on a blog and hollering at people isn't going to fix your situation. Nor mine.

315 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:22:19pm

re: #305 lawhawk

Corpus of Christie? So you're now ragging on his size as being that of a city in Texas, where they do things big? ///

Seriously though, the weight cracks didn't help Corzine any, and Christie's response was pitch perfect.

It was a low-road attack, and it richly earned the backlash it got.

316 soxfan4life  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:22:24pm

re: #282 Racer X

Why would those damn liberals out in Kalifornia reject gay marriage?

hmmm?

It was because of the Mormons.

317 keithgabryelski  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:22:29pm

re: #258 jayzee

To me, marriage is religious more than legal. Legally a civil union is the same thing (or is it?)

You should get over that premise.

Marriage is state contract.

That thing that happens in a church is a ceremony that people call "marriage" also, but isn't anything but a celebration in the eyes of the law.

No one is suggesting the Catholic church should be forced to marry people they don't want to marry.

But, "marriage" as it is defined by law, would suit society just as well if two loving same-sex individuals were involved as when they are opposite sex individuals (that are loving).

I'd say use a different word for them, but really the cat is out of the bag on this -- and I can understand why using a different word seems like a slap in the face.

Basically, suck it up: marriage, as defined by law is the marriage people are talking about and there is no legitimate reason to exclude same-sex couples from this contract.

318 freetoken  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:22:33pm

re: #299 rollwave87

I guess I assumed more people on here were in favor of gay rights, and was taken aback by the clear reality that this isn't the case.


I'd conjecture that it's about a 50/50 crowd here. Some may prefer the language of "civil union" over "marriage", but I agree with Thanos that is kind of arbitrary.

319 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:22:37pm

re: #305 lawhawk

I know, wasn't he great? He just rolled with it. So cool.

320 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:22:49pm

re: #310 WinterCat

I think 18 works.

17 year old can't find love and marry an 18 year old?

321 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:22:49pm

re: #285 freetoken

Possibly. You did put words into NJDh's mouth, so to speak.

OTOH, I do agree with you and Thanos that it is arbitrary to not allow homosexuals to receive the same legal relationship as heterosexual couples. Call it what you will - "marriage", "civil unions", whatever... the idea is that the society recognizes through the law the reality of the contract and puts in place mechanisms to enforce that contract.

EXACTLY!

322 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:22:50pm

re: #281 MandyManners

I just wanna' know who gets to toss the garter.

Why, whoever's wearing the dress, of course. :D

(if both guys are wearing tuxes, then they armwrestle for it)

323 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:22:50pm

re: #311 tradewind

He's 0-2. Ironically, Biden might come out of this 1-0 if Owens holds out.

324 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:22:56pm

re: #301 WindUpBird

Look. It is a GIVEN that the federal gov will always be involved in marriage. It will ALWAYS BE SO as long as there is a federal government. It's simple fact.

And if you believe that gay people should not have those rights as well, you're advocating for discrimination.

These are facts. This is true. I will not use the word bigot. I will not name call.

But it is a fact that that position is advocating that gay people be discriminated against.

WindUpBird - the federal government is not involved in marriage now, nor has it ever been. And that's the way it should stay.

325 TheMatrix31  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:23:13pm

re: #299 rollwave87

but it's hard to keep your temper in check when you see someone as denying your basic human rights

...no one's denying you shit in terms of human rights. Do whatever you want. Marriage is not a "basic human right", it's something that has serious tangible economic effects. It involves the government.

326 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:23:36pm

Musical interlude : Primitives - Crash

re: #277 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I'm gonna tell you that: You and your boyfriend should not be allowed to call your union "marriage" as a legal term. You may have a civil union, but I believe that the term marriage is to be reserved for unions of a man and a woman. This is what I believe.

I think that it should apply to any couple who make the appropriate bond and committment to each other. What interest should it be to anyone what gender they are?

327 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:23:52pm

nite folks

328 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:24:01pm

re: #258 jayzee

Quite frankly I don't understand the marriage thing at all. Really I don't understand it. To me, marriage is religious more than legal. Legally a civil union is the same thing (or is it?)
It always struck me as being akin to wanting to eat kosher pork.
Now if there is a religion that does support gay marriage, then so be it, go do it, get a civil marriage and a religiously ordained marriage.

Easy for you isn't it?

329 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:24:05pm

The upside to this: within two presidential cycles those percents on Gay marriage will flip the other way.

330 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:24:13pm

re: #323 RogueOne

That'd be so fitting... Biden benefitting from a cluster --ck of a campaign.

331 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:24:28pm

re: #324 cliffster

WindUpBird - the federal government is not involved in marriage now, nor has it ever been. And that's the way it should stay.

ever heard of DOMA?

332 Irenicum  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:24:46pm

re: #324 cliffster

I'm for marriage equality, but I'm also a federalist. It's a state by state issue. The feds just shouldn't get involved.

333 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:24:53pm

re: #317 keithgabryelski

You should get over that premise.

Marriage is state contract.

That thing that happens in a church is a ceremony that people call "marriage" also, but isn't anything but a celebration in the eyes of the law.

No one is suggesting the Catholic church should be forced to marry people they don't want to marry.

But, "marriage" as it is defined by law, would suit society just as well if two loving same-sex individuals were involved as when they are opposite sex individuals (that are loving).

I'd say use a different word for them, but really the cat is out of the bag on this -- and I can understand why using a different word seems like a slap in the face.

Basically, suck it up: marriage, as defined by law is the marriage people are talking about and there is no legitimate reason to exclude same-sex couples from this contract.

I think you misread what I wrote. I wrote I don't understand. I meant it. Personally anyone dumb enough to walk down the aisle, G-d bless. Misery loves company.

Again I'll ask, is there a difference between civil unions and marriages?

334 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:25:00pm

re: #307 MandyManners

Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret.

Ambrose Bierce

Did he also coin the phrase "Piss up a rope"? :)

335 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:25:04pm

re: #295 Thanos

Why should it be reserved? Marriage is permitted by civil authorities not religious.

I think a great deal of the opposition to it comes from a failure to understand that point, and also the mistaken idea that allowing gay marriage will force churches to marry gay couples or recognise gay marraiges-- which again, would not happen.

Religions and churches will remain free as they always have been to set such conditions as they desire on what they consider a marriage. Just as the Catholic Church can't be forced by law to marry a divorced person, or recognise as valid marriages in any protestant faith, so too will they (and all other religions) remain free to refuse to recognise or perform same sex marriages.

336 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:25:10pm

re: #308 WindUpBird

Ever been to San Diego? Ever been to the inland empire? Ever been to California at all?

Cha.

My hole freaking life. California is predominately liberal. Yes there are small areas where conservatives gather. Not many.

Nex?

337 avanti  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:25:20pm

re: #283 WindUpBird

THIS THISTHIS THISTHIS THISTHIS THISTHIS THISTHIS THIS

EXACTLY THIS. I'd give you all my updings if I could.

Well, that swings me a bit more away from being pretty agnostic on the issue. If all the rights of "marriage" can't be conferred in a civil union, that moves the bar a bit for me. I still feel for those who feel it is a attack on their strongly held issues of faith. It's a puzzlement.

338 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:25:37pm

re: #331 rollwave87

ever heard of DOMA?

And the Federal codes that prohibit benefits for spouses and children in civil unions...

339 freetoken  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:25:53pm

re: #329 Thanos

The Maine vote results are similar to the California ones. The margin is only a percent or two. In states like IA where the state Supreme court has rule it likely will take very little to keep that in place, since a constitutional change is inherently more difficult than simple laws.

340 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:25:56pm

re: #302 bosforus

Age limit hell... what's the species limit??
You can laugh, but there are true nutjobs out there who really, really care for their sheep, and one of them just might want to make it legal.

341 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:25:58pm

re: #328 austin_blue

Easy for you isn't it?

You really such a schmuck. AGAIN I don't understand the difference. I am asking a question. Jackoff.

342 WinterCat  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:26:00pm

re: #320 bosforus

Probably, but I would draw the line at 18 simply because I think that most kids at that age really aren't mature enough to handle the resulting responsibility of marriage. I say most.

Frankly, I think most people under 21 aren't very mature either...actually, perhaps it should be moved to 35 at the bottom limit, now that I think of it. /

343 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:26:01pm

re: #334 Mad Al-Jaffee

Did he also coin the phrase "Piss up a rope"? :)

Yeah.

344 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:26:10pm

re: #299 rollwave87

ok. that's fair. im 22 and don't quite claim to have mastered the art of debate yet. so i'm sorry for lashing. but it's hard to keep your temper in check when you see someone as denying your basic human rights...telling you you're worth less than someone else...that tends to provoke a strong reaction in people no? but i really didnt intend to turn this into a gay marriage thread. im on LGF tonight cause im amped about Hoffman losing. I guess I assumed more people on here were in favor of gay rights, and was taken aback by the clear reality that this isn't the case.


Language has been an important weapon in the gay movement's very swift advance. In the old days, there was sodomy: an act. In the late 19th century the word homosexuality was coined: a condition. A generation ago, the accepted term became gay: an identity.

Each formulation raises the stakes: One can object to and even criminalize an act; one is obligated to be sympathetic toward a condition; but once it's a fully- fledged, 24/7 identity, like being Hispanic or Inuit, anything less than wholehearted acceptance gets you marked down as a bigot.

-- Mark Steyn, "Why the most liberal churches are the emptiest", Jerusalem Post 07-16-2003

345 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:26:24pm

re: #332 Irenicum

I'm for marriage equality, but I'm also a federalist. It's a state by state issue. The feds just shouldn't get involved.

Sorry, it can't be left up to the States if it's a question of equal protection under the Constitution.

346 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:26:39pm

re: #329 Thanos

The upside to this: within two presidential cycles those percents on Gay marriage will flip the other way.

We'll see. That's not a sure thing.

347 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:27:05pm

/PIMF, I just know I am so gonna regret forgetting that sarc tag/

348 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:27:10pm

re: #316 soxfan4life

It was because of the Mormons.

Heh.

Librals are so easy to manipulate!

349 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:27:21pm

re: #285 freetoken

Possibly. You did put words into NJDh's mouth, so to speak.

OTOH, I do agree with you and Thanos that it is arbitrary to not allow homosexuals to receive the same legal relationship as heterosexual couples. Call it what you will - "marriage", "civil unions", whatever... the idea is that the society recognizes through the law the reality of the contract and puts in place mechanisms to enforce that contract.

I have no problems with civil unions and giving the same legal rights to a civil union couple as a married couple. I was raised to believe marriage is between a man and a woman and I am not changing that position.

350 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:27:40pm

re: #344 The Sanity Inspector

Language has been an important weapon in the gay movement's very swift advance. In the old days, there was sodomy: an act. In the late 19th century the word homosexuality was coined: a condition. A generation ago, the accepted term became gay: an identity.

Each formulation raises the stakes: One can object to and even criminalize an act; one is obligated to be sympathetic toward a condition; but once it's a fully- fledged, 24/7 identity, like being Hispanic or Inuit, anything less than wholehearted acceptance gets you marked down as a bigot.

-- Mark Steyn, "Why the most liberal churches are the emptiest", Jerusalem Post 07-16-2003

Mark Steyn, "the fill in for Rush Limbaugh." awesome source.

351 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:27:58pm

re: #328 austin_blue

Easy for you isn't it?

This is several times tonight that I've found myself agreeing with someone I can hardly bring myself to agree with. But your comment begs for something that is very important, and that is perspective

352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:28:05pm

re: #316 soxfan4life

It was because of the Mormons.


And the Blacks.

Oh! And the Hispanics.

Oh! And the conservatives.

353 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:28:24pm

re: #326 Jimmah

Hmm - seem to have got a music post intended for the other thread entangled in my post here...lol

354 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:28:35pm

re: #332 Irenicum

I'm for marriage equality, but I'm also a federalist. It's a state by state issue. The feds just shouldn't get involved.

They have to be, since marriages in one state are legally required to be recognized as lawful in other states.

/really going to bed now

355 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:28:47pm

re: #335 iceweasel

I think a great deal of the opposition to it comes from a failure to understand that point, and also the mistaken idea that allowing gay marriage will force churches to marry gay couples or recognise gay marraiges-- which again, would not happen.

Religions and churches will remain free as they always have been to set such conditions as they desire on what they consider a marriage. Just as the Catholic Church can't be forced by law to marry a divorced person, or recognise as valid marriages in any protestant faith, so too will they (and all other religions) remain free to refuse to recognise or perform same sex marriages.

I'm an atheist, married 28 yrs without any cheating or even near cheating, and we never went near a church. That doesn't mean the marriage isn't very real.

356 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:29:00pm

re: #324 cliffster

DOMA.

357 Irenicum  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:29:03pm

re: #312 sngnsgt

Are you near a major city that might have better treatment options? Also, the Epilepsy Foundation might be able to offer some resources that may not be nearby. I hope this helps! I don't know you're the praying type of person, but I'll keep your health in prayer.

358 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:29:13pm

re: #313 wozzablog

welcome to the dark side... have a cookie ;-)

I'll pass, thanks :^)

359 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:29:18pm

re: #352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And the CAKE!
/chocolate

360 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:29:20pm

re: #314 reine.de.tout

When you choose your friends, you have discriminated among people - you like person A for whatever reasons, you dislike person B for whatever reasons.

"Discrimination" happens.

I am being discriminated against. I have a pension from my government job. If my husband were to die, I would never see one cent of his social security. Not a penny, because there is a dollar for dollar offset on Social Security benefits if a person has a government pension, and my pension is just a tad larger than his SS benefit would be. So, . . . we are all "victims" of discrimination at some point or the other. Every one of us. You don't have a special hold on being "discriminated against". I know this, so I am taking steps to make sure I have additional income separate from his social security so that if he dies before I do, I will be OK.

Until civil unions or marriage is allowed for gay people, then you need to take whatever actions, draw up whatever contracts you need to do, to make sure you and your partner are as protected as it's possible to be. Getting angry on a blog and hollering at people isn't going to fix your situation. Nor mine.

I'm really trying not to holler, I'm trying to make the case. And my situation is about as fixed and shored up as I can make it. But there are brutal and heartbreaking and shocking stories out there (mostly involving children and health care) that are are very frightening to me, that I am not able to protect my current or hypothetical future family unit (for lack of a better word) against because of our status. Gay people have obtained durable power of attorney and drawn up contracts and done everything right they possibly can, and yet they can still be hosed when it comes to visitation, custody, etc. They're just not as protected.

You're cool, I like you, you're thinking critically. I hope my feelings are coming through and that I'm not sounding like I'm speaking from a bad place.

361 keithgabryelski  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:29:26pm

re: #333 jayzee

I think you misread what I wrote. I wrote I don't understand. I meant it. Personally anyone dumb enough to walk down the aisle, G-d bless. Misery loves company.

Again I'll ask, is there a difference between civil unions and marriages?

read this:
re: #262 Thanos

362 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:29:54pm

Everybody just chill.

Diva

363 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:30:01pm

re: #237 soxfan4life

Marriage is a time honored tradition that has always stood for the union of 1 man and 1 woman.

I'm pretty sure the "always" part is disputable. Just sayin'.

364 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:30:04pm

re: #150 keithgabryelski

/but I can smell bullshit from fifty yards blindfolded.

Keith, generally Lizards stay away from using coarse language towards each other. I'm sure you can phrase whatever you feel about me in politer terms.

BTW, I'm a she not a he, as Austin Blue said.

Due to being in academia, I am surrounded by liberals and those who lean-left generally. The point of my choosing to come here is that I like the readership because it doesn't wear you down to have your values and ideals torn up on a daily basis. That's all. It's just a buzzkill sometimes to have to argue, you know?

I am celebrating. I hope you guys are too! Might be back later, to see if I see some other known nicks.

Oh and thanks to Charles. He'll know why. :)

365 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:30:10pm

re: #324 cliffster

WindUpBird - the federal government is not involved in marriage now, nor has it ever been. And that's the way it should stay.

So marriages in one state don't count when you cross state lines? Do people have to get remarried when they move from Oregon to Washington?

366 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:30:17pm

It's already started, the spin... NJ and VA don't mean anything because Corzine and Deeds were just... so flawed.

367 bratwurst  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:30:36pm

re: #344 The Sanity Inspector

Language has been an important weapon in the gay movement's very swift advance. In the old days, there was sodomy: an act. In the late 19th century the word homosexuality was coined: a condition. A generation ago, the accepted term became gay: an identity.

Each formulation raises the stakes: One can object to and even criminalize an act; one is obligated to be sympathetic toward a condition; but once it's a fully- fledged, 24/7 identity, like being Hispanic or Inuit, anything less than wholehearted acceptance gets you marked down as a bigot.

-- Mark Steyn, "Why the most liberal churches are the emptiest", Jerusalem Post 07-16-2003


Um, that is the same Mark Steyn who doesn't understand why many consider Rush a racist, right?

His sense of what does and doesn't equal bigotry MAY not be the greatest.

368 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:30:45pm

re: #342 WinterCat

Probably, but I would draw the line at 18 simply because I think that most kids at that age really aren't mature enough to handle the resulting responsibility of marriage. I say most.

Frankly, I think most people under 21 aren't very mature either...actually, perhaps it should be moved to 35 at the bottom limit, now that I think of it. /

Ha! Would probably solve a lot of problems. However, I know people who are done making their families by then (like mine, which topped off at six kids by the time my mom was 35). But if we were to push the conversation, I fail to see how an authority can decide who's mature enough to get married and who isn't.

369 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:31:11pm

'Night all. Play nice.. respect each other and steer clear of the personal attacks. It is a bad reflection on those making the statements, and personal attacks aren't tolerated by the host either. But you all know that already...

370 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:31:12pm

re: #352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And the Blacks.

Oh! And the Hispanics.

Oh! And the conservatives.

Oh, those people. Their votes don't count.
/

371 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:31:17pm

re: #282 Racer X

Why would those damn liberals out in Kalifornia reject gay marriage?

hmmm?

the prejudice runs deep. even in kwazy kalifornia.

372 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:31:36pm

re: #350 rollwave87

Mark Steyn, "the fill in for Rush Limbaugh." awesome source.

Steyn is great. His columns are always fun to read and almost always spot on about the subject. He does his research and he backs up his claims. If he was the normal host instead of Limbaugh, it would be a much better show.

373 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:31:53pm

re: #365 WindUpBird

So marriages in one state don't count when you cross state lines? Do people have to get remarried when they move from Oregon to Washington?

Very good point. Marriages in one state are required to be recognized in another state. And there was an exception made for this rule, when it came to gay marriages. Who was it that made this exception?

374 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:32:08pm

re: #346 Dark_Falcon

We'll see. That's not a sure thing.

No, it's going to happen. The largest block of support for no gay marriage is 66+ years old. A lot of that resistance will be dying out between now and 2020.

375 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:32:11pm

re: #367 bratwurst
Maybe, but what he wrote in that excerpt is hard to argue against.

376 Irenicum  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:32:18pm

re: #345 austin_blue

re: #354 The Sanity Inspector

I appreciate both of your comments. As someone who has always been passionate about race issues b/c of having grown up in a deeply racist neighborhood and seen its truly evil face up close, I am quite glad that that became a federal issue. I'll have to think about this more.

377 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:32:23pm

re: #364 vbspurs

Hey.

378 Racer X  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:32:33pm

re: #371 eclectic infidel

the prejudice runs deep. even in kwazy kalifornia.

Wait, you mean there are bigots on both left side and the right?

huh.

379 WinterCat  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:32:39pm

re: #360 WindUpBird

Hey, if it is any consolation, I'm a step-mom. If my marriage ended (which it won't) I would lose my step-kids in a custody battle. There are very few protections for me either.

380 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:32:40pm

re: #337 avanti

Hey, civil unions are still a step forward! and politics is often incremental. I can certainly see being pro-civil unions because it's progress and a more realistic political goal. But it's not 100% equal to hetero marraige.

381 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:33:02pm

re: #277 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I'm gonna tell you that: You and your boyfriend should not be allowed to call your union "marriage" as a legal term. You may have a civil union, but I believe that the term marriage is to be reserved for unions of a man and a woman. This is what I believe.

Great, but in this thread, posted today, you imply that painting ACORN with dirty is of a higher priority to you than being honest and having integrity.

re: #399 Dark_Falcon

Still, the point is not to prove specific charges. The political aim, is destroy ACORN with dirt. Making them seen like a shadowy, evil, organization is far more effective than a measured consideration of the merits of the charges. The goal is to destroy, not to convict. Or at least, that is my goal.

I think that part of the whole point of marriage is to at least aspire towards personal integrity. Therefore it is no wonder to me that you find the concept of equality in the political arrangement to be objectionable. Got a problem with this?

382 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:33:27pm

re: #302 bosforus

So what's your underage limit?

-2 for that? Gimme a break. Sorry for seeking consistency.

383 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:33:28pm

re: #337 avanti

I still feel for those who feel it is a attack on their strongly held issues of faith.

I don't, because it isn't.

Marriage is a legal arrangement. Extending that to same sex couples has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. and if someone's religious sensibilities are offended by it, too bad. We don't allow people's personal religious sensibilities to dictate the legal arrangements for other people in any other area. This is no different.

Frankly, we ought to adopt the old slogan about abortion here: Don't like gay marriage? Don't have one.

384 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:33:39pm

re: #378 Racer X

Wait, you mean there are bigots on both left side and the right?

huh.

Now when the hell did anyone ever claim that there weren't left-wing bigots?

385 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:33:42pm

I always thought that banning gay marriage in a way violates the separation of church and state. Since as we know there are churches that will perform gay marriages. Never heard of anyone approaching it from that angle though. Honestly, I don't know why people care one way or the other. If a couple of guys wanna marry and have the same exact rights as a straight couple it doesn't bother me or affect me at all. I hear many conservatives talk about wanting the government out of private lives but then I see them be vocal supporters of banning gay marriage. Not all conservatives of course but a good number of them.

386 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:33:49pm

re: #372 Dark_Falcon

Steyn is great. His columns are always fun to read and almost always spot on about the subject. He does his research and he backs up his claims. If he was the normal host instead of Limbaugh, it would be a much better show.

so you agree with him in this quote that we should go back to accepting the 17th century way of thinking on homosexuality? what about depression? medicine? what's that name for that group who wished we still lived in the dark ages...oh. right. taliban.

387 Irenicum  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:33:52pm

And ironically, I should be reading my textbooks of social justice right now for class tomorrow night, so I should be going. G'nite all. Play well together!

388 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:34:01pm

re: #377 MandyManners

Hey.

Heya Mandy! ;)

389 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:34:14pm

re: #365 WindUpBird

So marriages in one state don't count when you cross state lines? Do people have to get remarried when they move from Oregon to Washington?

Full faith and credit in other state laws would normally allow a same sex marriage, but he government is intervening to prevent states from having to recognize another state's marriage. I would think that DOMA is an issue the Supreme Court would have to address.

390 arethusa  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:34:15pm

I'm off to bed, but don't forget two West Coast races: civil unions in Washington state, and CA-10, another House special election (not likely to go Republican, but it'd be interesting to see how close it is).

391 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:34:22pm

re: #341 jayzee

You really such a schmuck. AGAIN I don't understand the difference. I am asking a question. Jackoff.

Whee! Equal protection under the law for consenting adults.

Quit calling it a marriage license. Get married in church. Within the civil society, make a contract that treats every one equally and have it confirmed by a judge. If you want to have a marriage in a church, knock yourself out.

392 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:34:29pm

re: #364 vbspurs

Keith, generally Lizards stay away from using coarse language towards each other. I'm sure you can phrase whatever you feel about me in politer terms.

BTW, I'm a she not a he, as Austin Blue said.

Due to being in academia, I am surrounded by liberals and those who lean-left generally. The point of my choosing to come here is that I like the readership because it doesn't wear you down to have your values and ideals torn up on a daily basis. That's all. It's just a buzzkill sometimes to have to argue, you know?

I am celebrating. I hope you guys are too! Might be back later, to see if I see some other known nicks.

Oh and thanks to Charles. He'll know why. :)

That I understand. Still, stay around a while tonight. This is still the Rolls Royce of blogs. Even the liberals are better here. They don't go crazy when you present conservative ideas, and if you present them respectfully, liberals like avanti and iceweasel will listen to you and respond respectfully. If you like honest discussion, LGF is the place to be.

393 webevintage  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:34:47pm

Well it looks like congratulations are in order.
So I'm raising a glass in the direction of the Republican party tonight.
Fairly won, with hopes that NY-23 goes to the Dem...

A little pray to fate and karma that "no" wins in Maine since I hate voter initiatives that are all about taking something away from your fellow citizens that the state has given to them.
It really is dirty pool.
Hope things go well in Washington state too.

394 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:34:47pm

re: #332 Irenicum

I'm for marriage equality, but I'm also a federalist. It's a state by state issue. The feds just shouldn't get involved.

a state by state issue really means that individual states will get the right to write discrimination into law. that's bogus.

395 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:34:49pm

re: #383 iceweasel

Marriage is a legal arrangement.

Well, let's make it official then

396 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:35:26pm

re: #361 keithgabryelski

read this:
re: #262 Thanos

Still doesn't answer the question really. Essentially all state marriages are civil unions, the bigger issue then, according to this post, is federal gov honoring state civil unions. If they did would it be the same? Furthermore, could a hetero sexual couple in a state with civil union choose that over marriage?

397 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:35:46pm

re: #363 Slumbering Behemoth

used to stand for marriage between a boy and a girl. some places of the world it still does.

398 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:36:03pm

Anyone in Utah know of a news outlet online that is publishing election results? I'm having trouble finding one...

399 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:36:07pm

re: #392 Dark_Falcon

That I understand. Still, stay around a while tonight. This is still the Rolls Royce of blogs. Even the liberals are better here. They don't go crazy when you present conservative ideas, and if you present them respectfully, liberals like avanti and iceweasel will listen to you and respond respectfully. If you like honest discussion, LGF is the place to be.

Heh, thanks, Dark Falcon. :)

I registered in 2008, but I've been reading this site for yonks. I plan on doing so no matter what.

400 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:36:09pm

With 77% of precincts reporting, updated three minutes ago...

Bill Owens Dem. 54,415 48.9%
Doug Hoffman Con. 50,704 45.6%
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 6,051 5.4%

It is going to be close, over ten thousand paper ballots still to count, plus two counties reporting technical difficulties...we won't really know the results until tomorrow sometime. Even then I bet Hoffman tries to get a recount if he loses claiming voter fraud by Acorn.

401 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:36:13pm

re: #363 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm pretty sure the "always" part is disputable. Just sayin'.

I agree there. Used to be a man could have many wives, though concubines was really the way to go IMHO.

402 sagehen  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:36:17pm

re: #258 jayzee

Quite frankly I don't understand the marriage thing at all. Really I don't understand it. To me, marriage is religious more than legal. Legally a civil union is the same thing (or is it?)
It always struck me as being akin to wanting to eat kosher pork.
Now if there is a religion that does support gay marriage, then so be it, go do it, get a civil marriage and a religiously ordained marriage.

Civil marriage means two otherwise unencumbered adults agree to take care of each other; the state gives them legal standing to be able to do so.

Religious marriage means... well, that depends what religion you are. It's not the same everywhere for everyone.

And no, a civil union isn't the same thing as legal marriage. There's about 1800 statutory benefits to marriage status, and civil union only covers about a dozen of them.

403 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:36:42pm

11:24 -- A somewhat stunning fact: by January, the governorship in NJ will have changed hands 8 times in 9 years. -- MIKE MEMOLI

11:21 -- For those keeping score in Virginia, it looks like Republicans have picked up five seats in the House of Delegates, with one seat uncalled. Bob McDonnell's margin right now is 58.69%-41.2%. Looking at the scattering of remaining districts, it looks like that will hold. If he stays above 58.3%, he will have the highest percentage of victory for any Republican Governor in the state's history, and will have scored the highest percentage for any Governor since Albertis S. Harrison, Jr., got 63.8 percent against poor H. Clyde Pearson in 1961. --SEAN TRENDE

11:17 -- Chant at Christie HQ: "Yes we did!" -- MIKE MEMOLI

11:16 -- Gay marriage is losing in Maine, 51-49%, with 56% reporting. Again, without knowing which counties are in its hard to predict anything. SEAN TRENDE

404 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:36:42pm

re: #336 Racer X

Cha.

My hole freaking life. California is predominately liberal. Yes there are small areas where conservatives gather. Not many.

Nex?

There aren't "small areas", there are large areas. I believe that if you have to draw a line, in CA it's about 2 to 1, lean-left vs. lean right. Yes, it is left-leaning. But there are plenty of conservatives in the state, a state so large and powerful it would be a member of the G8 were it a country. That's a lot of conservatives! And it has a (moderate) Republican governor.

405 philosophus invidius  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:37:00pm

re: #64 MandyManners

That's why I laugh at people who claim that their votes don't count.

What do you mean? Unless the election is decided by one vote, no particular person's vote changes the outcome (if that's what you mean by a vote "counting").

406 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:37:21pm

re: #396 jayzee

Still doesn't answer the question really. Essentially all state marriages are civil unions, the bigger issue then, according to this post, is federal gov honoring state civil unions. If they did would it be the same? Furthermore, could a hetero sexual couple in a state with civil union choose that over marriage?

No, I was married to my wife in without a church. We have a marriage license from the state, not a civil union license.

407 WinterCat  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:37:25pm

re: #368 bosforus

Well, I am a less gov't is good gov't person so I tend to want as little interference in people's lives as possible. But since the gov't has a foothold in this arena already, it is kind of a moot point.

408 avanti  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:37:31pm

re: #346 Dark_Falcon

We'll see. That's not a sure thing.

Dark, it's in the bag, talk to most folks in their 20's and under and they'll ask what the issue is, they simply don't see one. I was amazed at my son acceptance of gays of both genders, and a bit proud too.

409 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:37:33pm

Hoffman has lost NY-23...

410 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:37:34pm

re: #392 Dark_Falcon

for the sin of ommission

i'm not liberal...?

or not respectful...?


///

411 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:37:41pm

re: #381 goddamnedfrank

Please permit me to clarify my statement you quoted with this repost:

re: #412 Dark_Falcon

Not by any means. If O'Keefe had been making up his charges, I would have called him a liar and argued against him. It's important to stick to matters where ACORN is in the wrong. The trick is know how to spin them to inflict maximum damage on the organization. Crazy charges are to be avoided precisely because they are crazy. Truly effective action does not stray into lies or insanity, but rather spins and attacks with an eye towards leaving the target soiled and looking scary.

412 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:37:45pm

re: #391 austin_blue

Whee! Equal protection under the law for consenting adults.

Quit calling it a marriage license. Get married in church. Within the civil society, make a contract that treats every one equally and have it confirmed by a judge. If you want to have a marriage in a church, knock yourself out.

I thought that's what I said? Asked?

413 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:37:54pm

re: #402 sagehen


And no, a civil union isn't the same thing as legal marriage. There's about 1800 statutory benefits to marriage status, and civil union only covers about a dozen of them.

Bolded for emphasis!

414 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:38:20pm

re: #352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Mormons spent millions on out of state phone banking and stuff like that. The "no on 8" movement was practically organized out of Salt Lake City.

415 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:38:34pm

re: #410 wozzablog

please note *just messin* tags...

416 HappyWarrior  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:38:41pm

re: #403 NJDhockeyfan

11:24 -- A somewhat stunning fact: by January, the governorship in NJ will have changed hands 8 times in 9 years. -- MIKE MEMOLI

11:21 -- For those keeping score in Virginia, it looks like Republicans have picked up five seats in the House of Delegates, with one seat uncalled. Bob McDonnell's margin right now is 58.69%-41.2%. Looking at the scattering of remaining districts, it looks like that will hold. If he stays above 58.3%, he will have the highest percentage of victory for any Republican Governor in the state's history, and will have scored the highest percentage for any Governor since Albertis S. Harrison, Jr., got 63.8 percent against poor H. Clyde Pearson in 1961. --SEAN TRENDE

11:17 -- Chant at Christie HQ: "Yes we did!" -- MIKE MEMOLI

11:16 -- Gay marriage is losing in Maine, 51-49%, with 56% reporting. Again, without knowing which counties are in its hard to predict anything. SEAN TRENDE

Knew it was the largest margin we've seen here in a while. I've said it before but it amazes me how close the attorney general race was between Deeds and McDonnell in 2005.

417 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:39:10pm

re: #360 WindUpBird

I'm really trying not to holler, I'm trying to make the case. And my situation is about as fixed and shored up as I can make it. But there are brutal and heartbreaking and shocking stories out there (mostly involving children and health care) that are are very frightening to me, that I am not able to protect my current or hypothetical future family unit (for lack of a better word) against because of our status. Gay people have obtained durable power of attorney and drawn up contracts and done everything right they possibly can, and yet they can still be hosed when it comes to visitation, custody, etc. They're just not as protected.

You're cool, I like you, you're thinking critically. I hope my feelings are coming through and that I'm not sounding like I'm speaking from a bad place.

{windupbird}
I have a brother who is gay, and who lost property when he and his long-time partner split up because it was all in the partner's name, and there were no contractual arrangements for their relationship.

It was an awful thing. Just awful. I know that the protection is not there.

But there are those of us, and I'm among them, who would prefer to see marriage remain as the religious committment, and have the state provide, to everyone, gay or straight, a "civil union". Those wanting a religious ceremony who belong to a church willing to grant the religious marriage in addition to the civil union, would be able to do it.

And we're not "bigots" for wanting a distinction to remain, even knowing that the distinction will probably blur and be erased over time. We also see, clearly, the need for the sorts of protections you're talking about.

418 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:39:19pm

re: #378 Racer X

Wait, you mean there are bigots on both left side and the right?

huh.

well, of course there are. regarding prop 8 and kalifornia though, the general consensus was that a)the anti-gay marriage advocates were very well organized and were able to roust the conservatives into a voting frenzy, and b)the pro gay marriage camp underestimated the power of propaganda (oddly enough). I continually (as someone who campaigned in CA to oppose 8) ran up against false information, such as the idea that if prop 8 failed, churches would be forced to perform same sex marriages, and that the left was trying to usurp the california constitution, plus the usual conservative flap about homosexuality being unnatural, blah blah blah.

419 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:39:26pm

11:30 -- Erick Erickson is claiming that Hoffman is going to win. He'd need 55% of the votes in the remaining precincts. I guess it depends which precincts are left. There's about 50 in Oswego and 50 in St. Lawrence. One's a Hoffman county and one's an Owens county, but what really matters is what precincts remain. --SEAN TRENDE

420 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:39:32pm

re: #386 rollwave87

so you agree with him in this quote that we should go back to accepting the 17th century way of thinking on homosexuality? what about depression? medicine? what's that name for that group who wished we still lived in the dark ages...oh. right. taliban.

I have never heard him say such a thing. Please provide your source. I'm not saying you are wrong, but a source is needed,

421 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:39:52pm

re: #391 austin_blue

Whee! Equal protection under the law for consenting adults.

Quit calling it a marriage license. Get married in church. Within the civil society, make a contract that treats every one equally and have it confirmed by a judge. If you want to have a marriage in a church, knock yourself out.

That's sort of the problem. Any politician advocating for the removal of the word marriage from the rights it confers, would be taken apart like an erector set. So we have the word marriage. And it'll continue to be called that, and it'll continue to have loaded religious meaning to certain people.

422 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:40:54pm

re: #410 wozzablog

for the sin of ommission

i'm not liberal...?

or not respectful...?

///

You're fine wozza. The list of good people from both sides of the spectrum here is too long for me to write out. And that, is a Good Thing.

423 Irenicum  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:41:16pm

re: #394 eclectic infidel

re: #376 Irenicum

re: #354 The Sanity Inspector

I appreciate both of your comments. As someone who has always been passionate about race issues b/c of having grown up in a deeply racist neighborhood and seen its truly evil face up close, I am quite glad that that became a federal issue. I'll have to think about this more.

My views are a work in progress (legally speaking) as this post attests.

424 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:41:33pm

re: #411 Dark_Falcon

Fair enough. From my perspective then you are overtly spinning the idea of marriage into a deliberate political inequality, when the word is simply a synonym for union. I find this tactic distasteful, to put it mildly.

425 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:41:49pm

re: #413 WindUpBird

Bolded for emphasis!

Yeah, that aint right.

Any link where I can find out more about the difference? Legally etc? It is actually tough to get a complete answer.

426 webevintage  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:41:55pm

re: #408 avanti

Dark, it's in the bag, talk to most folks in their 20's and under and they'll ask what the issue is, they simply don't see one. I was amazed at my son acceptance of gays of both genders, and a bit proud too.

Yep.
Teenagers think older folks are just plain nuts when it comes to gay marriage. They will be the generation when these conversations are nothing but a thing of the past...they just don't see why anyone cares who marries who.

427 keithgabryelski  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:42:26pm

re: #364 vbspurs

BTW, I'm a she not a he, as Austin Blue said.

I am aware.

Due to being in academia, I am surrounded by liberals and those who lean-left generally. The point of my choosing to come here is that I like the readership because it doesn't wear you down to have your values and ideals torn up on a daily basis. That's all. It's just a buzzkill sometimes to have to argue, you know?

I get all that -- but this started with you saying "real conservatives".

I stand by my post.

428 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:42:34pm

re: #402 sagehen

Civil marriage means two otherwise unencumbered adults agree to take care of each other; the state gives them legal standing to be able to do so.

Religious marriage means... well, that depends what religion you are. It's not the same everywhere for everyone.

And no, a civil union isn't the same thing as legal marriage. There's about 1800 statutory benefits to marriage status, and civil union only covers about a dozen of them.

Statutes can be changed so that civil union confers the same benefits as marriage.

429 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:42:36pm

re: #418 eclectic infidel

b)the pro gay marriage camp underestimated the power of propaganda (oddly enough). I continually (as someone who campaigned in CA to oppose 8) ran up against false information, such as the idea that if prop 8 failed, churches would be forced to perform same sex marriages, and that the left was trying to usurp the california constitution, plus the usual conservative flap about homosexuality being unnatural, blah blah blah.


I'd say they understood propaganda pretty well. Low, disgusting propaganda at that.

430 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:42:50pm

I'll repeat: the statutes that certify, dissolve, create, dispense, and determine custody in marriage are all state laws, not church laws. The codes that determine benefits for married partners at federal levels are all US laws, not Church laws.

431 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:43:38pm

re: #410 wozzablog

for the sin of ommission

i'm not liberal...?

or not respectful...?

///

Here you are. I'll include you.

432 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:43:46pm

re: #417 reine.de.tout

{windupbird}
I have a brother who is gay, and who lost property when he and his long-time partner split up because it was all in the partner's name, and there were no contractual arrangements for their relationship.

It was an awful thing. Just awful. I know that the protection is not there.

But there are those of us, and I'm among them, who would prefer to see marriage remain as the religious committment, and have the state provide, to everyone, gay or straight, a "civil union". Those wanting a religious ceremony who belong to a church willing to grant the religious marriage in addition to the civil union, would be able to do it.

And we're not "bigots" for wanting a distinction to remain, even knowing that the distinction will probably blur and be erased over time. We also see, clearly, the need for the sorts of protections you're talking about.

Meanwhile I got a bud who wound up paying palimony and splitting up his assests cause he shacked up with a hot, and broke younger guy in CA for a while. Cuts both ways.

433 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:43:53pm

re: #395 cliffster

Well, let's make it official then

I'm flattered, but I'm already spoken for. /

434 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:44:06pm

11:37 -- With 2/3 in, the Maine same-sex marriage law is losing, 51.6%-48.4%. The trend line is not encouraging for supporters of gay marriage - unless Bangor is still out. --SEAN TRENDE

435 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:44:27pm

re: #417 reine.de.tout

{windupbird}
But there are those of us, and I'm among them, who would prefer to see marriage remain as the religious committment, and have the state provide, to everyone, gay or straight, a "civil union". Those wanting a religious ceremony who belong to a church willing to grant the religious marriage in addition to the civil union, would be able to do it.

Then civil unions should convey 100% of the legal right of marriage and right now they do not. As long as civil unions are not legally equal to marriage, supporting civil unions over marriage is supporting inequality.

436 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:44:35pm

With 66% of precincts reporting, updated at 11:41...Maine, I thought better of you than this...

REJECT SAME-SEX MARRIAGE LAW
Yes 201944 51.79%
No 187964 48.21%

437 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:44:48pm

re: #417 reine.de.tout

just asking conversationally here...

would you object if a Minister at your church chose to perform a same sex marriage?

438 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:45:48pm

re: #431 reine.de.tout

thanks ;-)

439 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:46:08pm

re: #437 wozzablog

just asking conversationally here...

would you object if a Minister at your church chose to perform a same sex marriage?

I don't thnk a priest would do that.

440 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:46:32pm

re: #417 reine.de.tout

{windupbird}
I have a brother who is gay, and who lost property when he and his long-time partner split up because it was all in the partner's name, and there were no contractual arrangements for their relationship.

It was an awful thing. Just awful. I know that the protection is not there.

But there are those of us, and I'm among them, who would prefer to see marriage remain as the religious committment, and have the state provide, to everyone, gay or straight, a "civil union". Those wanting a religious ceremony who belong to a church willing to grant the religious marriage in addition to the civil union, would be able to do it.

And we're not "bigots" for wanting a distinction to remain, even knowing that the distinction will probably blur and be erased over time. We also see, clearly, the need for the sorts of protections you're talking about.

You're not a bigot. Not at all, and I apologize if I inferred that. I'm not religious (not an athiest though!) and I don't really get the attachment to religion that the word holds, since secular people still call it marriage, and secular people can conduct a wedding officially as someone earlier said. The government doesn't recognize the religious attachment. But it's not the WORD that I want. it's the RIGHTS. My joke was always that gay people should call it g'marriage or mawwage (after Princess Bride) We're not married. We're mawwied! ;-)

If the civil union law is federal and all those elusive federal benefits are conferred, hey, good enough for me! Call it whatever, I don't mind. Call it Homosexual Contract For Purposes Of Federal Protection. The problem is the civil union thing generally refers to state-by-state rights, not federal. Married until you leave Hawaii, and so on.

441 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:46:52pm

re: #435 Conservative Moonbat

Then civil unions should convey 100% of the legal right of marriage and right now they do not. As long as civil unions are not legally equal to marriage, supporting civil unions over marriage is supporting inequality.

The laws can be changed, can they not?
They were written at some point, weren't they?
So they CAN be rewritten, can they not?

442 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:46:59pm

re: #385 HappyWarrior

An excellent point, and marriage equality isn't the only issue where you see the hypocrisy either.

443 cliffster  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:47:00pm

re: #433 iceweasel

I'm flattered, but I'm already spoken for. /

Upding for catching me by surprise. I'd be disappointed in retrospect, but I'm a tad spoken for as well.

444 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:47:21pm

re: #14 Racer X

I am not a Democrat.
I am not a Republican.

I am a meat popsicle.

Cool. Me, I am a gay robot.

445 jayzee  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:48:36pm

OT-Who's snoring on mic on Fox?

446 avanti  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:48:47pm

re: #426 webevintage

Yep.
Teenagers think older folks are just plain nuts when it comes to gay marriage. They will be the generation when these conversations are nothing but a thing of the past...they just don't see why anyone cares who marries who.

The other thing I love about the younger generation is they are not hung up on the whole issue of hugging a same sex friend, or even saying "I love you man"
That and the fact that they have many opposite sex friends and no one makes it a issue when they hang out.

447 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:48:48pm

11:40 -- Oswego County just came in. All that's left are precincts in St. Lawrence County, which Owens is carrying 55%-40% right now. Unless Hoffman has some huge stash of conservative precincts in St. Lawrence County, its over. --SEAN TRENDE

448 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:48:48pm

Glenn Beck is the markos of the right.

449 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:48:57pm

re: #417 reine.de.tout

{windupbird}
I have a brother who is gay, and who lost property when he and his long-time partner split up because it was all in the partner's name, and there were no contractual arrangements for their relationship.

It was an awful thing. Just awful. I know that the protection is not there.

But there are those of us, and I'm among them, who would prefer to see marriage remain as the religious committment, and have the state provide, to everyone, gay or straight, a "civil union". Those wanting a religious ceremony who belong to a church willing to grant the religious marriage in addition to the civil union, would be able to do it.

And we're not "bigots" for wanting a distinction to remain, even knowing that the distinction will probably blur and be erased over time. We also see, clearly, the need for the sorts of protections you're talking about.

What about me? I'm an atheist and would refuse to go to a church to get married. I don't believe in god or religious ceremonies, and it would be a lie if had gotten married in a church. Are you trying to tell me that because marriage is reserved for Religion that my wife of 27 yrs and I aren't married even though we have a Marriage license, not a civil union license, from the state?

450 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:49:10pm

Ya Think?

Washington (CNN) – President Obama is not planning to watch Tuesday nights election returns, Obama aides Robert Gibbs and David Axelrod tell CNN.

Man, there's some breaking news.///

451 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:49:56pm

re: #448 Sharmuta

Glenn Beck is the markos of the right.

I'll drink to that!
...Dr. Pepper...

452 sagehen  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:06pm

re: #340 tradewind

Age limit hell... what's the species limit??
You can laugh, but there are true nutjobs out there who really, really care for their sheep, and one of them just might want to make it legal.

Because of course, sheep have always been able to enter into binding legal contracts.

453 philosophus invidius  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:11pm

Albany Project blog calls for Owens

[Link: www.thealbanyproject.com...]

Nate Silver calls for Owens

[Link: www.fivethirtyeight.com...]

454 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:13pm

re: #424 goddamnedfrank

I'm sort of on board with this. Somere: #389 BryanS

Full faith and credit in other state laws would normally allow a same sex marriage, but he government is intervening to prevent states from having to recognize another state's marriage. I would think that DOMA is an issue the Supreme Court would have to address.

You're probably right. I'm curious how a challenge of DOMA would turn out.

455 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:16pm

re: #69 vbspurs

You know what I do notice on LGF suddenly, though? Not a change by Charles. He's always been consistent. But suddenly this doesn't seem such a conservative readership anymore...which would be disappointing to me personally.

I hope Sharmuta turns up later.

Aren't you sweet? Sorry I missed you.

456 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:30pm

re: #439 MandyManners

It's being debated at our church's national convention, which is why my local parish pays absolutely no attention to whatever they say. We keep hoping they'll just go away.

457 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:50pm

I'll have to check back later for answers, must get a nap in before our wee hours of the morning testing window.

458 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:54pm

re: #448 Sharmuta

Glenn Beck is the markos of the right.

Markos is too boring for that! He needs to be more wacky.

459 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:55pm

re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist

Cool. Me, I am a gay robot.

You're a Trans...
>>>
Trans...
>>>
Transformer?

460 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:57pm

re: #437 wozzablog

just asking conversationally here...

would you object if a Minister at your church chose to perform a same sex marriage?

LOL.
It wouldn't happen.
But no, I would have no objection, if the priest at my Catholic Church performed a same-sex marriage. But I really don't see it happening any time soon.

461 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:51:25pm

/pimf hope my wife didn't read that... 28 yrs!

462 webevintage  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:51:33pm

Why is the right for gay Americans to be married not the same as the fight for black and white Americans to marry?

And I think there are lawsuits winding their way though the courts that will in the next year or so force the Supreme Court visit this issue and DADT.
I think.

463 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:51:40pm

re: #458 WindUpBird

Markos is too boring for that! He needs to be more wacky.

Screw him.

464 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:51:51pm

re: #106 soxfan4life

So does President Obama fall into that category?

By me he sure as hell does.

465 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:52:07pm

re: #427 keithgabryelski

I get all that -- but this started with you saying "real conservatives".

I stand by my post.

Okay, no worries. I am British but one who has lived here in the States for a while. I therefore have a tendency to use conservative but also to mean conservative. Else I would've said "real Republicans", right? Nevertheless, it was an inelegant turn of phrase from me. All I hope for is that others acknowledge when they've written something inelegant too, even to defend their viewpoints.

Now, off to watch C-SPAN. Catch you later!

466 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:52:12pm

re: #456 tradewind

It's being debated at our church's national convention, which is why my local parish pays absolutely no attention to whatever they say. We keep hoping they'll just go away.

The Catholic church is trying to get Anglicans back into the church.

467 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:52:22pm

re: #439 MandyManners

very much depends. A small minority of vicars in the UK are.

There are openly gay clergy in some parishes.

It's a small - but growing - issue.

468 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:52:26pm

re: #363 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm pretty sure the "always" part is disputable. Just sayin'.

Dig through your history and anthro texts. One on one is pretty recent
and local.

469 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:52:26pm

re: #449 Thanos

What about me? I'm an atheist and would refuse to go to a church to get married. I don't believe in god or religious ceremonies, and it would be a lie if had gotten married in a church. Are you trying to tell me that because marriage is reserved for Religion that my wife of 27 yrs and I aren't married even though we have a Marriage license, not a civil union license, from the state?

I also have a marriage license, and horror of horrors, was not married in my church.

Was't even married here in the US to tell you the truth.
Am I married?

470 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:52:39pm

re: #448 Sharmuta

Glenn Beck is the markos of the right.

SHARMUTA! ...what are you doing listening/watching Glenn Beck? He's great on radio where I don't have to see him.

471 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:53:33pm

re: #435 Conservative Moonbat

Then civil unions should convey 100% of the legal right of marriage and right now they do not. As long as civil unions are not legally equal to marriage, supporting civil unions over marriage is supporting inequality.

Yeah, but it's also an improvement. Clearly I want all the rights, not just the low-hanging ones. But I'd vote for someone who was gung-ho about civil unions, because it's progress. It's tricky. Politics is incremental and all that.

472 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:53:37pm

re: #470 vbspurs

SHARMUTA! ...what are you doing listening/watching Glenn Beck? He's great on radio where I don't have to see him.

You can't see him cry on the radio.

473 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:00pm

re: #460 reine.de.tout

thanks for the candid answer, it is much appreciated, and again proves what a nice person you are :-)

474 That's Glenn Beck to you  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:06pm

I have just gotten off of the phone with Doug Hoffman.

We are going to demand a recount.

The election was stolen. A bunch of RINOs voted for the Democrat rather than the Conservative Party candidate. So we are going to find a judge that will throw out all of the ballots of the Democrats.

Ok. I know that doesn't make sense to you. But which of my plans ever do? Yet I have an army of lemmings that watch my show, buy my books and repeat what I say.

So the talking points are :

1) RINOs stole the election from Doug Hoffman
2) RINOs really are just Democrats in disguise
3) we need the courts to throw out the Democrat's votes and then have a recount.

475 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:09pm

re: #403 NJDhockeyfan

Wait, this can't be. I thought Republicans were on life support, and the plug was about to be pulled any day.
So now all of a sudden they're breathing on their own?

476 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:12pm

re: #424 goddamnedfrank

Fair enough. From my perspective then you are overtly spinning the idea of marriage into a deliberate political inequality, when the word is simply a synonym for union. I find this tactic distasteful, to put it mildly.

I had not thought about it that way. To be honest, its not spin. The word marriage is a word with strong connotations in my eyes and it still makes me uncomfortable to have it refer to a union of two men or two women. I think ultimately, I favor just calling the legal aspects of all unions "civil unions" and leaving the marriage portion of things to individual churches. Is that satisfactory?

477 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:20pm

re: #470 vbspurs

SHARMUTA! ...what are you doing listening/watching Glenn Beck? He's great on radio where I don't have to see him.

I would sooner puncture my ear drums. I don't do the punditry thing anymore, Dear. They're all in it for their bottom line, and not for conservatism.

478 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:30pm

Well both the Unitarian church and the Metropolitan church perform same sex weddings. So what makes that any different than a marriage performed by any other religious organization?

479 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:32pm

re: #470 vbspurs

SHARMUTA! ...what are you doing listening/watching Glenn Beck? He's great on radio where I don't have to see him.

Does he have Alex Jones on his radio show?

480 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:33pm

re: #449 Thanos

What about me? I'm an atheist and would refuse to go to a church to get married. I don't believe in god or religious ceremonies, and it would be a lie if had gotten married in a church. Are you trying to tell me that because marriage is reserved for Religion that my wife of 27 yrs and I aren't married even though we have a Marriage license, not a civil union license, from the state?

Right on, my atheist comrade!

481 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:40pm

re: #253 rollwave87

re: #417 reine.de.tout

re: #360 WindUpBird

I stand with ReineDeTrout on this. I want gays to have the same benefits I have with my wife. My opposition to marriage being changed to include gay relationships is based on the idea that the gay relationship is fundamentally different than my straight one. Not less in any way. Different in important ways. Ways worth recognizing with a different label, a different method than "marriage".

Cultural differences deserve more than homogenization. That is ruin of a subtle kind. The differences deserve honest celebration. I say the same is true for our sexual differences. Our geographic differences. Our differences in appearance and race.

Setting aside anger and negativity we can enjoy one anthers different choices as variety of humanities.

482 BryanS  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:43pm

re: #454 WindUpBird


You're probably right. I'm curious how a challenge of DOMA would turn out.


For now, it seems, all the effort needs to be spent protecting rights under withering attack in the states. But I would think anyone married in one state and not granted equal treatment when moving to or visiting another state would have a cause of action.

483 seamonkey  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:58pm

re: #466 MandyManners

And Anglican priests will get to stay married. Will this affect the church at large?

484 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:55:15pm

re: #477 Sharmuta

I would sooner puncture my ear drums. I don't do the punditry thing anymore, Dear. They're all in it for their bottom line, and not for conservatism.

Well said. Sadly, I have to wake up early for work, but I REALLY miss your commentary. I know I promise to, but I really will try to come back. Night!

485 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:55:40pm

re: #484 vbspurs

Have a good night. :)

486 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:55:47pm

re: #429 bosforus

The commercial was right on target, especially given how much the Mormon church contributed to the support of prop 8.

I was specifically referring to the grassroots campaign - the anti prop 8 leadership did nothing to counter the irrational fears being promulgated in the churches throughout the region. Lots of gloss, not enough substance.

487 vbspurs  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:55:47pm

re: #479 MandyManners

Does he have Alex Jones on his radio show?

Oh God. I sincerely hope not.

488 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:56:28pm

re: #470 vbspurs

SHARMUTA! ...what are you doing listening/watching Glenn Beck? He's great on radio where I don't have to see him.

I remember Glenn Beck's show years ago when he was a syndicated radio guy of some renown but with no real national fame, completely ripping off Phil Hendrie's multiple-characters-played-by-one guy-bating-radio-callers schtick. He used to come in to Hendrie's studio and watch him broadcast his show, looking for ideas that he would then lift wholesale for his own use.

489 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:56:54pm

re: #459 solomonpanting

You're a Trans...
>>>
Trans...
>>>
Transformer?

Yes, SFZ is More Than Meets The Eye.

490 tradewind  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:57:12pm

re: #466 MandyManners

Sigh. I know. It's a mess.
I hope my little parish can stay out of the national mess. We live and let live, and have always had a pretty diverse congregation, and it's cool with everyone. But when PC politics stuff kicks up at the national level, it makes people nervous and resentful. I wish they'd shuddup.

491 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:57:19pm

re: #458 WindUpBird

Markos is too boring for that! He needs to be more wacky.

He would need to advance several levels in fucknuttery to get close to Glenn Beck's territory.

492 solomonpanting  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:57:36pm

re: #462 webevintage

Why is the right for gay Americans to be married not the same as the fight for black and white Americans to marry?

I suppose because until recently marriage was the union of male and female and that there's no difference between a black man and a white man or between a black woman and a white woman, but differences between a white woman and a white man or a black woman and a black man or a white woman and a black man or a black woman and a white man.

493 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:58:13pm

re: #476 Dark_Falcon

I had not thought about it that way. To be honest, its not spin. The word marriage is a word with strong connotations in my eyes and it still makes me uncomfortable to have it refer to a union of two men or two women. I think ultimately, I favor just calling the legal aspects of all unions "civil unions" and leaving the marriage portion of things to individual churches. Is that satisfactory?

Not really. My undergraduate degree was in Comparative Literature. From my perspective, again, language evolves.

494 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:58:41pm

re: #489 Dark_Falcon

Yes, SFZ is More Than Meets The Eye.

There was that Family Guy episode where it was revealed that Optimus Prime was Jewish...

495 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:58:47pm

re: #422 Dark_Falcon


it is a very good thing that people feel there are lots of good posters here.

you know somewhere has jumped the shark when on the fingers of one hand you can count who's comments are tolerable in the sense of logic, thought and feeling.

496 webevintage  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:58:47pm

re: #483 seamonkey

And Anglican priests will get to stay married. Will this affect the church at large?

Probably not since The Church has allowed both married Anglican Priests join as well as Orthodox Priests for awhile and become married Catholic Priests.

497 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:59:36pm

re: #462 webevintage

Why is the right for gay Americans to be married not the same as the fight for black and white Americans to marry?


Maybe an interracial couple that got married in those days and that opposes gay marriage could give you the best answer.

498 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:59:41pm

re: #458 WindUpBird

Markos is too boring for that! He needs to be more wacky.

If by 'wacky' we mean 1) prone to breaking down in tears 2) finding hidden symbolism in rockefeller center and 3) indulging in prolonged fantasies about poisoning people, or pouring gasoline over them and lighting a match...I guess if kos were wacky like that then he'd be just like glenn beck.

And the paranoid schizophrenic who sleeps on the subway grating near there.

499 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:00:30pm

re: #486 eclectic infidel

The commercial was right on target, especially given how much the Mormon church contributed to the support of prop 8.

You are the only pro gay marriage person I've talked to who was anything but revolted by that commercial.

500 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:01:05pm

re: #494 WindUpBird

There was that Family Guy episode where it was revealed that Optimus Prime was Jewish...

Some say that's not the only thing he's hiding ;-)

501 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:01:16pm

re: #491 Jimmah

He would need to advance several levels in fucknuttery to get close to Glenn Beck's territory.

I also agree. I don't really understand the full-on hate for Markos. Maybe someone has links to something completely Glennbecky he's written?

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:02:59pm

re: #258 jayzee

Quite frankly I don't understand the marriage thing at all. Really I don't understand it. To me, marriage is religious more than legal. Legally a civil union is the same thing (or is it?)
It always struck me as being akin to wanting to eat kosher pork.
Now if there is a religion that does support gay marriage, then so be it, go do it, get a civil marriage and a religiously ordained marriage.

Lots of people do, but a civil union does not, at this time, have the same legal status.

503 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:04:07pm

night all.

i'm rwtiring to my private chambers to sleep til mid afternoon, awaken and buy birthday presents.

tomorrow shall be a good day

504 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:04:08pm

re: #502 SanFranciscoZionist

It should.

505 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:04:19pm

re: #498 iceweasel

If by 'wacky' we mean 1) prone to breaking down in tears 2) finding hidden symbolism in rockefeller center and 3) indulging in prolonged fantasies about poisoning people, or pouring gasoline over them and lighting a match...I guess if kos were wacky like that then he'd be just like glenn beck.

That is actually what I mean by wacky. Wacky in the crazy-morning-zoo-guy sense. If you listen to any truly hideous morning zoo radio, they actually have the same sort of vibe. The stunts, the hysterics, the dangerous-to-deadly contests, the FCC fines...

It was a morning zoo show that did that Wii contest. Where the woman died from imbibing too much water? That's where Beck comes from, those sorts of shows.

506 sagehen  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:04:56pm

re: #414 Conservative Moonbat

The Mormons spent millions on out of state phone banking and stuff like that. The "no on 8" movement was practically organized out of Salt Lake City.


Am I the only one choking on the irony of it being the Mormons leading the charge to assert that marriage has always been, can only ever be, between one man and one woman?

507 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:05:37pm

re: #275 cliffster

Careful there. Someone might oppose "federal" civil unions because they simply don't think the federal gov't should not be getting involved in the discussion.

But the federal government is involved, to the extent that federal benefits and responsibilities extend to married couples, and because of the full faith and credit issue between the states.

508 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:06:01pm

re: #506 sagehen

you win the prize for putting it into a nutshell my friend.

if i could ding you to the skys and all that are in them i would

509 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:06:57pm

re: #505 WindUpBird

That is actually what I mean by wacky. Wacky in the crazy-morning-zoo-guy sense. If you listen to any truly hideous morning zoo radio, they actually have the same sort of vibe. The stunts, the hysterics, the dangerous-to-deadly contests, the FCC fines...

It was a morning zoo show that did that Wii contest. Where the woman died from imbibing too much water? That's where Beck comes from, those sorts of shows.

ooh yeah...I know what you're talking about. And there was some morning show that encouraged two viewers to have sex on the altar of a church or something...for which I think they were arrested later (the couple).
Yeesh. Beck is more than wacky now though, unfortunately. Although he does still retain that rodeo clown sensibility and vibe, as he's the first to admit.

510 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:06:57pm

re: #499 bosforus

shiny!

511 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:07:15pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

I also agree. I don't really understand the full-on hate for Markos. Maybe someone has links to something completely Glennbecky he's written?

Kos: Proud of "Screw Them"

512 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:07:25pm

re: #282 Racer X

Why would those damn liberals out in Kalifornia reject gay marriage?

hmmm?

I don't know what the suggestion is, but if you ask that question, you clearly don't understand California elections, or what actually happened with Prop 8. Come on. California is not the city of Berkeley.

513 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:07:55pm

re: #493 goddamnedfrank

Not really. My undergraduate degree was in Comparative Literature. From my perspective, again, language evolves.

I understand that. But this is a hard matter for many people, including me. I'm trying, but this is very hard for me.

514 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:08:14pm

re: #506 sagehen

it's not lost on me, but I have several LDS friends (they're mostly part of my enclave of weirdie geek artists I hang out with online, except for this dude who was a mormon private investigator with a black belt in karate. I SWEAR THIS IS TRUE) and it becomes uncomfortable for me when the whole polygamy thing starts getting tossed at them.

515 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:08:19pm

re: #506 sagehen

If "alternative lifestyle" has meaning, gay straight and polygamy would be equal under our purview. But that's not really what the term means is it?

516 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:08:46pm

re: #513 Dark_Falcon

I understand that. But this is a hard matter for many people, including me. I'm trying, but this is very hard for me.

{DF} you're a great guy, DF.

517 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:09:10pm

re: #512 SanFranciscoZionist

Like your style!

518 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:09:49pm

NY-23 has not been blue in...wait for it


ONE HUNDRED YEARS.

So the impending demise of Democrats...folks might want to wait a bit on that prediction.

519 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:10:51pm

re: #332 Irenicum

I'm for marriage equality, but I'm also a federalist. It's a state by state issue. The feds just shouldn't get involved.

FF&C

520 Bloodnok  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:11:31pm

re: #511 NJDhockeyfan

Kos: Proud of "Screw Them"

To be followed by:

LGF on Markos

521 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:12:05pm

Random musical interval:

522 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:12:11pm

re: #468 Decatur Deb

Dig through your history and anthro texts. One on one is pretty recent
and local.

Quite true. If one does not mind, a terrifically snarktastic piece of satire on the subject:

Betty Bowers Explains Traditional Marriage

523 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:14:13pm

re: #363 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm pretty sure the "always" part is disputable. Just sayin'.

Yes, my ancestor Yaakov and his wives Rachel and Leah, not to mention his concubines, Bilhah and Zilpah, would be quite surprised to learn that marriage was always between one man and one woman.

524 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:14:25pm

re: #479 MandyManners

Does he have Alex Jones on his radio show?

RON PAUL!
/didn't he have him on his tv show?

525 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:16:12pm

re: #511 NJDhockeyfan

Kos: Proud of "Screw Them"

I know about that. I think it's harsh and nasty, but I also don't think it's a liberal thing so much as a I-hate-contractors thing. I know guys in Iraq who are NOT LIBERAL who hate those mercenary contractor types with every fiber of their being. Because they've had to deal with them. Are they also unamerican? Is it not okay for Markos, but it's okay for those guys? They see REAL consequences of those contractors' actions. That endanger their own lives. This just from anecdotes told by a couple friends who were in Iraq. But I believe them.

At what point is a person allowed to say "screw 'em" is what I'm saying.

526 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:16:26pm

re: #441 reine.de.tout

The laws can be changed, can they not?
They were written at some point, weren't they?
So they CAN be rewritten, can they not?

Probably not, Reine.

If State laws are written that deny equal protection under the Constitution, they will probably be overturned by the Supremes. If additions to a State Constitution are added (such as the amendment to the Texas Constitution that was added a couple of years ago that denied same sex couples the right to the same civil protections that other consenting adults have), they also, can be overturned by the Supremes.

527 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:17:52pm

re: #525 WindUpBird

At what point is a person allowed to say "screw 'em" is what I'm saying.

How about a list, and our people can have that said about them after it's said about terrorists?

528 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:18:18pm

Random Musical Interval:

529 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:18:39pm

re: #404 WindUpBird

There aren't "small areas", there are large areas. I believe that if you have to draw a line, in CA it's about 2 to 1, lean-left vs. lean right. Yes, it is left-leaning. But there are plenty of conservatives in the state, a state so large and powerful it would be a member of the G8 were it a country. That's a lot of conservatives! And it has a (moderate) Republican governor.

Not to mention the fact that many Californians who vote Democrat are also socially conservative on a range of issues. This is something that is NOT well understood by a lot of people who assume all California Dems are, well, me.

530 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:19:01pm

re: #476 Dark_Falcon

I had not thought about it that way. To be honest, its not spin. The word marriage is a word with strong connotations in my eyes and it still makes me uncomfortable to have it refer to a union of two men or two women. I think ultimately, I favor just calling the legal aspects of all unions "civil unions" and leaving the marriage portion of things to individual churches. Is that satisfactory?

Nope. I'm an atheist and I want to get married..

531 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:19:20pm

re: #509 iceweasel

ooh yeah...I know what you're talking about. And there was some morning show that encouraged two viewers to have sex on the altar of a church or something...for which I think they were arrested later (the couple).
Yeesh. Beck is more than wacky now though, unfortunately. Although he does still retain that rodeo clown sensibility and vibe, as he's the first to admit.

That was Opie and Anthony's show you're referring to. And they actually got taken off the air for it. It wasn't the altar, I think it was in one of the pews, and they got caught, and arrested, yeah. it was a sort of New-York do-bad-things scavenger hunt sort of stunt.

(I know too much about radio, arrrgh)

532 sagehen  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:19:44pm

re: #454 WindUpBird

I'm sort of on board with this. Somere: #389 BryanS

You're probably right. I'm curious how a challenge of DOMA would turn out.

My guess? A federal appellate court will be bound to uphold the law as it stands, the plaintiffs will appeal, and Roberts won't grant cert. The Supreme Court won't address the issue for 20 years.

533 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:19:49pm

re: #414 Conservative Moonbat

The Mormons spent millions on out of state phone banking and stuff like that. The "no on 8" movement was practically organized out of Salt Lake City.

There were other groups involved as well, and they were organized and aggressive as hell.

534 Bloodnok  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:20:32pm

re: #525 WindUpBird

I know about that. I think it's harsh and nasty, but I also don't think it's a liberal thing so much as a I-hate-contractors thing. I know guys in Iraq who are NOT LIBERAL who hate those mercenary contractor types with every fiber of their being. Because they've had to deal with them. Are they also unamerican? Is it not okay for Markos, but it's okay for those guys? They see REAL consequences of those contractors' actions. That endanger their own lives. This just from anecdotes told by a couple friends who were in Iraq. But I believe them.

At what point is a person allowed to say "screw 'em" is what I'm saying.

Preferably not after they've just been murdered, but then I'd say that about just about anyone. I'm funny that way.

535 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:22:48pm

re: #421 WindUpBird

That's sort of the problem. Any politician advocating for the removal of the word marriage from the rights it confers, would be taken apart like an erector set. So we have the word marriage. And it'll continue to be called that, and it'll continue to have loaded religious meaning to certain people.

In my community, we saw the churches and synagogues begin to celebrate 'marriages' even before the cities were recognizing 'civil unions', so I come to this a bit backward--I know a lot of people who had religious marriages long before they got serious about seeking state recognition.

536 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:24:09pm

re: #525 WindUpBird

I know about that. I think it's harsh and nasty, but I also don't think it's a liberal thing so much as a I-hate-contractors thing. I know guys in Iraq who are NOT LIBERAL who hate those mercenary contractor types with every fiber of their being. Because they've had to deal with them. Are they also unamerican? Is it not okay for Markos, but it's okay for those guys? They see REAL consequences of those contractors' actions. That endanger their own lives. This just from anecdotes told by a couple friends who were in Iraq. But I believe them.

At what point is a person allowed to say "screw 'em" is what I'm saying.


They also hate them because as actual soldiers, they look down on, well, mercenaries.
Even so, much of the hostility towards kos arises from that remark, and it's implacable. Just a heads up.

537 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:26:40pm

re: #504 Rightwingconspirator

It should.

I could go for that.

538 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:26:58pm

re: #534 Bloodnok

Preferably not after they've just been murdered, but then I'd say that about just about anyone. I'm funny that way.

Oh it's totally not tasteful at all. But to play devil's advocate for Kos, we're talking about mercenaries in a war zone who he believes endanger the lives of American troops. And he's also angry because they're being protrayed as servicemen, when they're endangering servicemen.

I can understand the anger, is what I'm saying.

539 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:27:01pm

re: #513 Dark_Falcon

I understand that. But this is a hard matter for many people, including me. I'm trying, but this is very hard for me.

Hang in there, bubba. Just remember, at a very fundamental level, this is not your fight. It's not mine either. I am a happily married, straight, white, retired Catholic (now a happy agnostic), Celtic/Germanic, Liberal Texan, science trained human.

As such, I don't feel it is my place to tell consenting adults how to love. That is, obviously, none of my fucking business.

Pun intended.

540 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:27:32pm

re: #536 iceweasel

They also hate them because as actual soldiers, they look down on, well, mercenaries.
Even so, much of the hostility towards kos arises from that remark, and it's implacable. Just a heads up.

yeah, I should probably stop because this is Big LGF Culture, huh. :P

541 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:28:03pm

re: #506 sagehen

Am I the only one choking on the irony of it being the Mormons leading the charge to assert that marriage has always been, can only ever be, between one man and one woman?

Given the intensity with which the LDS church has distanced itself from the polygamous past, it's not surprising, though.

542 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:28:42pm

re: #527 Sharmuta

How about a list, and our people can have that said about them after it's said about terrorists?

I don't think I understand.

543 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:29:45pm

re: #537 SanFranciscoZionist

This gay rights throw-down has been the most intriguing thread I have seen here

544 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:29:45pm

re: #542 WindUpBird

Really? Is the concept of human decency too difficult to grasp?

545 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:31:41pm

re: #514 WindUpBird

it's not lost on me, but I have several LDS friends (they're mostly part of my enclave of weirdie geek artists I hang out with online, except for this dude who was a mormon private investigator with a black belt in karate. I SWEAR THIS IS TRUE) and it becomes uncomfortable for me when the whole polygamy thing starts getting tossed at them.

I can see that.

I have a friend who is Episcopalian, but has lots of Mormon relatives on one side. She has ancestors who were polygamists, and she says it feels disrespectful of them when they're ignored by mordern Mormons throwing around the 'one man and one woman' lines.

546 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:33:21pm

re: #545 SanFranciscoZionist

If consenting adults has real meaning, alternative lifestyle etc, what is the problem with polygamy in principle?

547 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:34:06pm

re: #481 Rightwingconspirator

re: #417 reine.de.tout

re: #360 WindUpBird

I stand with ReineDeTrout on this. I want gays to have the same benefits I have with my wife. My opposition to marriage being changed to include gay relationships is based on the idea that the gay relationship is fundamentally different than my straight one. Not less in any way. Different in important ways. Ways worth recognizing with a different label, a different method than "marriage".

Cultural differences deserve more than homogenization. That is ruin of a subtle kind. The differences deserve honest celebration. I say the same is true for our sexual differences. Our geographic differences. Our differences in appearance and race.

Setting aside anger and negativity we can enjoy one anthers different choices as variety of humanities.

fair enough. we definitely don't agree but you've made the most coherent case for the civil union argument i've heard. and congrats, you have the rollwave87 'not anti-gay' stamp of approval. sarc

548 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:36:55pm

re: #531 WindUpBird

That was Opie and Anthony's show you're referring to. And they actually got taken off the air for it. It wasn't the altar, I think it was in one of the pews, and they got caught, and arrested, yeah. it was a sort of New-York do-bad-things scavenger hunt sort of stunt.

(I know too much about radio, arrrgh)

I knew a woman in college who, a few years before I met her, had been booted from Rainbow Girls after being caught in the act, on the altar of their church, with a DeMolay boy.

He was not booted from DeMolay. No one ever said the Masons were egalitarian.

549 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:37:00pm

re: #529 SanFranciscoZionist

Not to mention the fact that many Californians who vote Democrat are also socially conservative on a range of issues. This is something that is NOT well understood by a lot of people who assume all California Dems are, well, me.

They've never been to Temecula or Sun City that's for sure.

550 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:37:17pm

What do you say of my 546?

551 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:37:53pm

re: #547 rollwave87
PIMF my bad
What do you say of my 546?

552 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:38:44pm

re: #543 Rightwingconspirator

This gay rights throw-down has been the most intriguing thread I have seen here

I'm impressed with the low deletion rate.

553 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:41:01pm

re: #527 Sharmuta

How about a list, and our people can have that said about them after it's said about terrorists?

Oh, I got it. He's giving it to the contractors before he's giving it to terrorists.

Seriously, I honestly didn't understand what you were saying. :/ Human decency is not difficult to grasp. Being pissed off at people whose actions might get you killed, and saying nasty things about them...


This is my relatable anecdote, which is where I'm coming from with this. And then I'll drop the subject.

There was this guy at my high school who was killed because he was playing car tag on a dangerous stretch of highway at night (Hwy 18) in Washington with another car. Basically street racing. And what happened was he was in the oncoming lane in his RX-7 racing a guy at speeds excess of 100mph, and he ran head on into a woman and her kid in a minivan. All people in the colission were killed.

Once news spread around the school, there was a giant memorial, an assembly, people wearing ribbons and such. There was also a decent sized and vocal minority who was very angry at the guy (who was known as a bit of a bully on campus) and did not believe his life should be celebrated and memorialized in such a glowing way because he killed two people with his actions. And it was a reaction to the memorial, which was directly after his death. And there were a couple of fistfights over it, and so forth.

I understood the sentiments of both sides. Speaking ill of the dead, sure. But it was also a reaction to the lack of acknowledgement of his actions. it's not totally equivalent, but there;s something there. Anyhow.

554 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:42:33pm

re: #546 Rightwingconspirator

If consenting adults has real meaning, alternative lifestyle etc, what is the problem with polygamy in principle?

Aside from the legal nightmares it would entail, I can't come up with one. Not for want of trying. I've given it some thought.

Personally, I have a religious ban on it, but my husband isn't Jewish, so I suppose there's nothing to stop him from taking a second wife.

555 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:42:37pm

re: #546 Rightwingconspirator

If consenting adults has real meaning, alternative lifestyle etc, what is the problem with polygamy in principle?

I personally don't actually mind. I know people in poly relationships. They're egalitarian, and mostly arty nerd types. More of a hippie thing than some creepy compound patriarch thing.

556 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:42:51pm

re: #552 SanFranciscoZionist

I have totally given up on guessing how our kind host decides what is annoying or worth deleting vs letting run out. I got off to a rough start, emailed to get my account back. Glad to be here.

557 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:43:08pm

re: #549 Jimmah

They've never been to Temecula or Sun City that's for sure.

Fresno!

558 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:44:29pm

re: #556 Rightwingconspirator

I have totally given up on guessing how our kind host decides what is annoying or worth deleting vs letting run out. I got off to a rough start, emailed to get my account back. Glad to be here.

We enjoy your presence!

559 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:45:54pm

re: #546 Rightwingconspirator

If consenting adults has real meaning, alternative lifestyle etc, what is the problem with polygamy in principle?

my main response to this argument is that , while this may not be true for everyone, I was born gay. ie: Ive been gay my whole life. ie: I had a crush on my gym teacher when I was in like kindergarten. I don't think someone can be born a polygamist. they're heterosexual who want to have more than one opposite sex partner. I didnt chose being gay. and I only want one partner. so its different. altho Ill concede that this 'slippery slope' argument is probably the best one in the anti-gay marriage movement's quiver.

560 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:45:56pm

re: #555 WindUpBird

As long as its not like what we see at FLDS I'm cool with it. Relationships are dynamic. My caveat is my perspective is with a couple decades of straight monogamy, with "live in" gay friends in need when it was needed. I should have mentioned that to Rollwave87.

561 sagehen  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:51:01pm

re: #546 Rightwingconspirator

If consenting adults has real meaning, alternative lifestyle etc, what is the problem with polygamy in principle?

If you have two spouses, which one's your next of kin? Who speaks for you when you're unconscious? What if one of them wants your corpse to be interred in a mausoleum, and the other wants your ashes scattered? If your employer's health insurance covers your family, does that include the 4 new spouses (and 18 stepchildren) acquired after you started the job?

562 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:52:23pm

re: #559 rollwave87

I would never argue I'm straight by choice. Its just not what IS. My sexuality is hardwired as my monogamy might be. Different discussion someday there.

My point is we feel what we feel is honestly what we are. I can only imagine a gay relationship could become a triad, particularly if one partner is bi. Its hypothetical to me personally.

In all cases society is best served by genuine respect.

563 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:52:54pm

re: #552 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm impressed with the low deletion rate.

I was scared after my earlier post was deleted that I'd get flounced or something. Glad I wasn't. I admit that what I said was ad hominem and over the line, but I honestly didn't expect it to receive that much heat over it. I guess I let my (very sincerely held) belief that I'm on the right side of this issue justify me going over the line in defending my position.

564 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:55:44pm

re: #513 Dark_Falcon

I understand that. But this is a hard matter for many people, including me. I'm trying, but this is very hard for me.

I totally understand.

One last thing to help frame tonight's theme of "my perspective," I'm (painfully) divorced. I firmly believe that everyone should be free to make the same soul-crushing mistake I fell prey to.

565 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:55:48pm

re: #563 rollwave87

I was scared after my earlier post was deleted that I'd get flounced or something. Glad I wasn't. I admit that what I said was ad hominem and over the line, but I honestly didn't expect it to receive that much heat over it. I guess I let my (very sincerely held) belief that I'm on the right side of this issue justify me going over the line in defending my position.

It happens to the best of us, rollwave. I don't entirely agree with you, but I respect your views and hope your relationship is a long and loving one.

566 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:58:25pm

re: #561 sagehen

Of course this gets complicated. Like granting "marriage" rights to a gay spouse. I wrote this before... A past thread

Possible chain of events- Don't ask don't tell ends. Gay marriage becomes law. The navy allows gays and women into all the hard dangerous places like fighter planes and submarines. So the Navy someday must ajudicate a lesbian couple separateing from a marriage and their partnership on a sub or as a team on a fighter plane.

Too damn bad-deal with it. Develop policies, appoint a jury , but handle it as best as can be.

567 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:00:05pm

re: #553 WindUpBird

Just an FYI:

Daily Kos Bashing LGF Again
Daily Kos: Strike Back at LGF!
Daily Kos Calls for LGF to Be Shut Down (Again)

Wanted to let you know that much of the hostility towards kos stems from them being assholes.

568 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:04:42pm

re: #567 Sharmuta

I don't deny the guy's an asshole! (so I guess thinking about it, I do understand the hate. I retract my earlier comment about how I don't understand the hate)

And I'm new here, so I don't really have any background specifically on his attacks on LGF, and I haven't researched it. I don't read Kos unless someone links me specifically, I find it to be sort of shrill and echo-chambery. So I apologize for not doing my homework in that regard.

569 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:04:52pm

re: #565 Dark_Falcon
re: #563 rollwave87
Glad we had our exchange Rollwave87.

570 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:05:14pm

re: #565 Dark_Falcon

It happens to the best of us, rollwave. I don't entirely agree with you, but I respect your views and hope your relationship is a long and loving one.

thanks man.

571 rollwave87  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:05:55pm

re: #569 Rightwingconspirator

re: #563 rollwave87
Glad we had our exchange Rollwave87.

likewise.

572 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:06:42pm

re: #568 WindUpBird

Well, Dude. Let me introduce you to the tag storm.

/It's a lot of homework

573 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:08:22pm

re: #572 Sharmuta

I am not alone in simply not getting how yu do what you do. Good boots? Waders?

574 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:12:48pm

re: #540 WindUpBird

yeah, I should probably stop because this is Big LGF Culture, huh. :P

heh. Nope, you rawk. You're doing fine and frankly, you nailed it.

575 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:17:30pm

re: #540 WindUpBird

yeah, I should probably stop because this is Big LGF Culture, huh. :P

BTW, if you look through that tag cloud, or do a search over on dKos for LGF tags, you will find several posts where our host links to Kos, and several diaries of more recent vintage praising LGF (if sometimes cautiously or begrudgingly) -- including two approving links to LGF from Kos himself on open threads in the last 6 weeks or so. :)

I'd say there's no reason to be reading threads where now banned commenters here complained about Kos posts and positions from years ago, rather than reading more recent posts both here and there. Assuming you don't have unlimited time, that is. I'd look at what's happening now and work my way back.

576 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:22:48pm

re: #559 rollwave87

my main response to this argument is that , while this may not be true for everyone, I was born gay. ie: Ive been gay my whole life. ie: I had a crush on my gym teacher when I was in like kindergarten. I don't think someone can be born a polygamist. they're heterosexual who want to have more than one opposite sex partner. I didnt chose being gay. and I only want one partner. so its different. altho Ill concede that this 'slippery slope' argument is probably the best one in the anti-gay marriage movement's quiver.

In that case, genetics has nothing to do with it. Are people genetically "programmed" to love and cleave to only one person?

577 bosforus  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:23:31pm

re: #576 bosforus

In that case, genetics has nothing to do with it. Are people genetically "programmed" to love and cleave to only one person?

Should people only be allowed to marry those to whom they are genetically inclined?
Just a question. I really must get to bed now.

578 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:24:26pm

re: #575 iceweasel

BTW, if you look through that tag cloud, or do a search over on dKos for LGF tags, you will find several posts where our host links to Kos, and several diaries of more recent vintage praising LGF (if sometimes cautiously or begrudgingly) -- including two approving links to LGF from Kos himself on open threads in the last 6 weeks or so. :)

I'd say there's no reason to be reading threads where now banned commenters here complained about Kos posts and positions from years ago, rather than reading more recent posts both here and there. Assuming you don't have unlimited time, that is. I'd look at what's happening now and work my way back.

Quoted for truth!

Earlier someone was linking to 'damning' posts from 2004! Talk about living in the past.

579 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:26:49pm

re: #578 Jimmah

You and your fiance need something more recent?

580 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:27:14pm

re: #578 Jimmah

Is there something wrong with LGF's past, Jim?

581 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:30:36pm

Carry on with your whitewashing of LGF's history with kos, and kid yourselves that a few begrudging compliments erase the past, kids.

582 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:32:07pm

Ice, sharm, calm down. It's not worth it getting into these fights.

583 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:34:13pm

re: #582 Dark_Falcon

Ice, sharm, calm down. It's not worth it getting into these fights.

Worthy of a dingdown from some people, it seems. Thanks, DF.

584 sagehen  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:34:24pm

re: #576 bosforus

In that case, genetics has nothing to do with it. Are people genetically "programmed" to love and cleave to only one person?

Why not? Wolves and swans mate for life, elephants widows never remate, I'm sure someone here can think of other examples. Penguin couples seem to last five or six years, every zoo has a gay penguin couple with an adopted egg...

585 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:35:16pm

re: #580 Sharmuta

Is there something wrong with LGF's past, Jim?

From my perspective (damn am I getting my mileage out of that phrase tonight) in the past the LGF community overwhelmingly openly supported things like torture. In that atmosphere I determined my voice would be incredibly unwelcome. Maybe that remains the case, maybe I have evolved, I know LGF has evolved, and in today's environment I feel far more incentive to respond to the ongoing dialog I find here. Take that for what it is worth.

586 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:38:47pm

re: #585 goddamnedfrank

From my perspective (damn am I getting my mileage out of that phrase tonight) in the past the LGF community overwhelmingly openly supported things like torture. In that atmosphere I determined my voice would be incredibly unwelcome. Maybe that remains the case, maybe I have evolved, I know LGF has evolved, and in today's environment I feel far more incentive to respond to the ongoing dialog I find here. Take that for what it is worth.

There is this fascinating phenomenon where people think the comments are the driving force of this community. They're not- it's our host. And I'm not sure which of his articles from the past he's supposed to now find unworthy of being re-linked on his own blog. Have the comments moderated, sure. But when I speak of LGF's past, I'm not talking commenters. LGF's articles speak for themselves.

587 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:40:24pm

re: #582 Dark_Falcon

Ice, sharm, calm down. It's not worth it getting into these fights.

I'm not the one behaving badly here, DF. Save your lectures for someone who needs them.

588 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:42:13pm

re: #583 Sharmuta

Worthy of a dingdown from some people, it seems. Thanks, DF.

Because there is no equivalence between Ice's posts here and your disgraceful behaviour.

589 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:43:39pm

re: #572 Sharmuta

Well, Dude. Let me introduce you to the tag storm.

/It's a lot of homework

Whoa damn, this is cool, I didn't know about it. Of course I scroll down and my eyes immediately find "Death Cult". And Dire Straits right next to Dirty Bomb.

/heavymetal

590 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:44:50pm

re: #587 iceweasel

Sorry, ice. But I can't see why this argument broke out. Could you please tell me what the dispute is over? I don't want to lecture, I just want to calm things down if I can.

591 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:45:08pm

re: #588 Jimmah

Because there is no equivalence between Ice's posts here and your disgraceful behaviour.

Huh?

592 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:49:34pm

re: #591 WindUpBird

Huh?

For one thing, it is disgraceful to divulge peoples names on LGF without the permission of that person. In fact, it's not allowed as the posting guidelines make clear. So far just my first name - given that she is doing this in anger it is clearly intended as a threat. Sharmuta knows my full name.

593 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:50:36pm

re: #592 Jimmah

I spelled half of Jimmah. Get a grip.

594 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:50:52pm

Pathetic.

595 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:53:00pm

Just to be clear - no one is saying that Markos is now regarded as being beyond criticism on LGF, the point is rather that with LGF and Kos recently linking to each other, we are no longer living in times when Kos was regarded as completely beyond the pale.

596 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:54:06pm

re: #593 Sharmuta

I spelled half of Jimmah. Get a grip.

Which as you know from private conversations is my real name. Nice try Sharm.

597 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:56:26pm

re: #586 Sharmuta

There is this fascinating phenomenon where people think the comments are the driving force of this community. They're not- it's our host. And I'm not sure which of his articles from the past he's supposed to now find unworthy of being re-linked on his own blog. Have the comments moderated, sure. But when I speak of LGF's past, I'm not talking commenters. LGF's articles speak for themselves.

From what I have read here, I think comments here and on many political blogs follow the culture of the blog itself, and may add culture and community, but don't drive it. The blog drives the comments, not the other way around. The comments can be for an audience by themselves, though. Before I registered, I read a lot of the comments as well as the articles, often searching for Charles' posts in the comments.

I think on some more nasty or populist blogs, the comments do become a driving force, and it becomes a matter of the blogger giving the audience red meat. It also becomes hazy when there's multiple guest bloggers that come from the community.

My experience has been as a Livejournal guy from the early days, which has that Myspace-for-Blogs vibe, where everyone is connected to everyone else, and has a much different, more freewheeling Lord Of The Flies energy to it. A blog can go from being unknown on LJ to having a thousand comments in a day, because of the connectivity of the place.

598 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:59:08pm

re: #586 Sharmuta

There is this fascinating phenomenon where people think the comments are the driving force of this community. They're not- it's our host. And I'm not sure which of his articles from the past he's supposed to now find unworthy of being re-linked on his own blog. Have the comments moderated, sure. But when I speak of LGF's past, I'm not talking commenters. LGF's articles speak for themselves.

Granted, and I very much respect Charles, but I'm going to say what I see as true. The LGF that put up this article with commentary and the majority of the community that responded to it, is one that I felt comfortable wathching, but not participating in. I see very few familiar names in that thread by the way, but I will note that someone came in at the end and tried to counter the prevailing sentiment.

I want to be very clear, I am not implying that Charles has changed his mind one bit, that would be presumptuous and stupid. I am saying that the community he as actively moderated is one that I now choose to participate in while not feeling virtually alone. That is all.

599 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:02:47pm

re: #590 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, ice. But I can't see why this argument broke out. Could you please tell me what the dispute is over? I don't want to lecture, I just want to calm things down if I can.

You put me in a bad spot here, DF, because my personal solution for dealing with this problem has been to take the high road and ignore all attempts at provocation. It is a personal issue, it has nothing to do with LGF, and Sharm unfortunately is determined to work it out publicly on LGF, to the extent now of revealing people's personal information.

You can best calm things down by completely ignoring them, which is what I have been and will continue to do. Now let's change the subject, please?

600 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:06:05pm

re: #599 iceweasel

You put me in a bad spot here, DF, because my personal solution for dealing with this problem has been to take the high road and ignore all attempts at provocation. It is a personal issue, it has nothing to do with LGF, and Sharm unfortunately is determined to work it out publicly on LGF, to the extent now of revealing people's personal information.

You can best calm things down by completely ignoring them, which is what I have been and will continue to do. Now let's change the subject, please?

Fair enough, I will do so. I wasn't trying to bother anyone, so please forgive me if I did.

601 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:06:56pm

re: #598 goddamnedfrank

Granted, and I very much respect Charles, but I'm going to say what I see as true. The LGF that put up this article with commentary and the majority of the community that responded to it, is one that I felt comfortable wathching, but not participating in. I see very few familiar names in that thread by the way, but I will note that someone came in at the end and tried to counter the prevailing sentiment.

I want to be very clear, I am not implying that Charles has changed his mind one bit, that would be presumptuous and stupid. I am saying that the community he as actively moderated is one that I now choose to participate in while not feeling virtually alone. That is all.

Of course, and it's a lot. The commentariat here is now one which is far more welcoming and tolerant of opinions that stray further left than right of center. Some people here were always tolerant of that and willing to listen, but not all were, and there is no denying that LGF (in terms of the commenters themselves) is more welcoming to people on teh left side of the spectrum than it used to be. i don't believe Charles himself ever wanted an echo chamber, nor would he want one now that was a lefty echo chamber. Best to have a balance of both, and I think we're really in that place.

602 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:09:49pm

re: #596 Jimmah

Which as you know from private conversations is my real name. Nice try Sharm.

Srsly? I like you dude, but it doesn't exactly require some kind of secret decoder ring to derive "Jim" from "Jimmah". C'mon man, I'll buy you a grip if it comes to that, but you really need to get one.

603 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:09:55pm

re: #600 Dark_Falcon

Fair enough, I will do so. I wasn't trying to bother anyone, so please forgive me if I did.

No you didn't at all. I appreciate how you always want to play peacemaker. The fact is that this should have been resolved offline between the parties involved and shouldn't be discussed here.

I reckon that one thing we could all agree on is that we don't want to do anything that hurts LGF, and endless personal squabbling, or the public working out of private issues, isn't good for the blog. IMO.

604 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:13:04pm

re: #602 Slumbering Behemoth

Srsly? I like you dude, but it doesn't exactly require some kind of secret decoder ring to derive "Jim" from "Jimmah". C'mon man, I'll buy you a grip if it comes to that, but you really need to get one.

She didn't 'derive' it SB. She is using my real name and she knows it.

605 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:13:58pm

re: #602 Slumbering Behemoth

Srsly? I like you dude, but it doesn't exactly require some kind of secret decoder ring to derive --- from "Jimmah". C'mon man, I'll buy you a grip if it comes to that, but you really need to get one.

She knows his real name and knows that he goes by that. It was an attempt to get away with divulging personal information and pleading innocence. She did it earlier this week as well and we said nothing. I won't link it. You are entitled to your own opinion about whether that was deliberate on her part-- but he is not being paranoid.

Here's an idea though: since Jimmah has expressed extreme displeasure at it, there would be no reason for anyone to ever do it again, right?

Unless they were deliberately trying to provoke, or divulge personal information. Which you've assured us she is not, and I'm sure no one else here wants to do.
So i guess we won't have to worry about it ever happening again now.

606 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:16:00pm

"Lighten Up Francis"

607 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:19:54pm

re: #604 Jimmah

She didn't 'derive' it SB. She is using my real name and she knows it.

Fer fucks sake, bro. I do not know your meat-world name, I've called you "Jim" more than once, and you have never given me shit for it.

I'm selling Behemoth Brand Grips, get 'em while they're hot.
/
Srsly dude, I think you should lighten up.

608 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:22:38pm

re: #607 Slumbering Behemoth

There's extenstive backstory here that you don't know about. So maybe you should lighten up, and ignore the whole situation, as we would like to do?
Thanks in advance.

609 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:23:23pm

re: #605 iceweasel

She knows his real name and knows that he goes by that. It was an attempt to get away with divulging personal information and pleading innocence.

Short of Sharm (Oops! Fuck, I mean Sharmuta) engaging in an all out campaign to out Jimmah's identity in every way possible, I just ain't buying it. Sorry.

610 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:25:15pm

Sleepy B- there isn't an "extensive" back story.

Weasel lied.

611 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:25:48pm

re: #608 iceweasel

There's extenstive backstory here that you don't know about. So maybe you should lighten up, and ignore the whole situation, as we would like to do?
Thanks in advance.

Okay then, an extensive back story it is. Has Sharmuta been going on trying to out peoples meat world identities here, because that is the accusation leveled against her that I touched on.

If that is the case, than I am sure you have links for that.

612 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:26:01pm

re: #609 Slumbering Behemoth

Love you Big Guy. Sweet Dreams, I'm off.

Pathetic...

613 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:29:13pm

re: #602 Slumbering Behemoth

Burt SB, you didn't KNOW that you were in fact giving out my real name did you? What Sharmuta did, in anger remember, and in the knowledge of my full name, was completely different.

And just for some perspective, her friend Rose who was with her last week when she began her attack on iceweasel is threatening to forward private chat transcripts as well. Not that either myself of ice have anything to fear from that, but its a pretty disgusting betrayal of confidence don't you think? But hey - I need to lighten up, hmm? You'd be delighted to be treated like this yourself right?

614 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:34:18pm

re: #610 Sharmuta

Sleepy B- there isn't an "extensive" back story.

Weasel lied.

That is the very height of pettiness. Seriously. Sharmuta's a complaint here is that ice lied about her enjoyment of Sharmuta's posts before she joined LGF. Besides the fact that she fails to make that case at all, it's pretty weak tea. If anyone needed to be told to lighten up, it was Sharm.

615 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:35:51pm

re: #611 Slumbering Behemoth

If that is the case, than I am sure you have links for that.

No, SB. i do not 'have links'. The point is this involves events and conversations happening in that place known as the real world, off blog.

Sharm has refused to deal with it offblog, so she is on a hunt for excuses to make it about the blog, and to pick fights on the blog.
She has repeatedly refused to discuss it privately, or be civil in public, or failing all that to simply ignore me.
All further discussion of this only feeds her desire for attention and gratifies her need to play it out in public. So I'd like to stop that now, please.

re: #613 Jimmah

i would like to stop discussing this further with SB or anyone, because it is exactly her purpose in trying to pick fights. I refuse to engage on that level. Please? We have some more important things to be doing and talking about. :)

616 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:39:09pm

re: #613 Jimmah

Burt SB, you didn't KNOW that you were in fact giving out my real name did you? What Sharmuta did, in anger remember, and in the knowledge of my full name, was completely different.

Sorry dude, I am gonna need much more than "Jim from Jimmah" to agree that there is a credible indictment against Sharm trying to out your meat world identity.

And just for some perspective, her friend Rose who was with her last week when she began her attack on iceweasel is threatening to forward private chat transcripts as well. Not that either myself of ice have anything to fear from that, but its a pretty disgusting betrayal of confidence don't you think? But hey - I need to lighten up, hmm? You'd be delighted to be treated like this yourself right?

I know nothing of that, and I have no idea what it has to do with what I have commented on. Private chat transcripts? Private among which parties?

Are you asserting that she (Rose) somehow spied on a private convo of yours? Or are you saying that you were conversing with Rose with the expressed intention of that converstation being private, a confindence which you assert she intends to betray.

Yeah, I am ignorant of what you are talking about, the accusations you are making, because I have not seen first hand the evidence for it.

617 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:43:13pm

re: #615 iceweasel

No, SB. i do not 'have links'. The point is this involves events and conversations happening in that place known as the real world, off blog.

I see. You are one up on me, then, as it seems you are saying that the three of you have a face to face, real world relationship of some sort.

618 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:47:38pm

re: #616 Slumbering Behemoth

This is essentially a personal matter, really nothing to do with politics or the things we should be discussing here, SB. As I'm sure you will understand, it gets very awkward very quickly when bystanders jump in and try to pick sides, when they don't have the relevant information required to understand what is going on. I am now taking iceweasels (excellent) advice on this and will day nothing more here on the matter:

re: #613 Jimmah

i would like to stop discussing this further with SB or anyone, because it is exactly her purpose in trying to pick fights. I refuse to engage on that level. Please? We have some more important things to be doing and talking about. :)

619 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:49:09pm

re: #616 Slumbering Behemoth


Yeah, I am ignorant of what you are talking about, the accusations you are making, because I have not seen first hand the evidence for it.

And you won't be able to, because it does not involve the blog. I have two choices here: either roll around in the dirt and tell everyone what it's about, or say nothing and let her propagate the lie that it's about something here. I'm not going to assist her in her desire to play it out publicly, nor will i be dragged down to her level.

Tell you what: observe behaviour over the coming weeks, or go look at the last two weeks, and see which of us is obsessively downdinging even the other's innocuous posts, who is continually trying to pick a fight, and who repeatedly violates all requests that if it can't be civil, have no discussion at all. That is Sharm.

620 The Left  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:51:21pm

re: #617 Slumbering Behemoth

I see. You are one up on me, then, as it seems you are saying that the three of you have a face to face, real world relationship of some sort.

That's what I'm saying. It involves meatspace. She won't work it out there, so she wants to pretend it's something here. But it isn't.
Now I really do want to drop it, if that's ok.

621 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:55:36pm

re: #620 iceweasel

I'm skeptical, but whatever, that's my default setting. Dropped for now, I guess.

622 The Left  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:06:14am

re: #621 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm skeptical, but whatever, that's my default setting. Dropped for now, I guess.

Doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It's true and I don't want to discuss it further.
BTW, because I know how this will play out, (seizing on irrelevant small details to shriek 'liar!") let me clarify: I haven't met Sharm.

623 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:34:36am

re: #620 iceweasel

I dig that you like the term "meatspace". I do too! It's so Gibson cyberpunk!

624 The Left  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:39:36am

re: #623 WindUpBird

I dig that you like the term "meatspace". I do too! It's so Gibson cyberpunk!

There's got to be something newer and cooler to call it right? Dunno what that is...

I was a huge fan of neuromancer back in the day, but don't think i read anything else. :)

625 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:59:12am

re: #624 iceweasel

There may be another word for it, but I don't know of one!

I met my partner on a BBS almost 20 years ago, partially because we shared a love for the Atari ST and William Gibson, I love Gibson's later novels like Idoru and Virtual Light, and my favorite artist, Rick Berry, was the guy who did the original Neuromancer cover. I am a big nerd for 80's-informed cyberpunk!

I also haven't read Neal Stephenson's acclaimed cyberpunk novel Snow Crash, but I have had like a dozen people tell me I should based on my reading habits.

here's Rick Berry and Darrell anderson's art site

626 Randall Gross  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 2:21:37am

re: #625 WindUpBird

Upding for Atari ST

627 mshaw  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 5:46:36am

Being considered right-wing by ThinkProgress is like being considered skinny by Michael Moore - meaningless.

628 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:30:34am

re: #619 iceweasel

And you won't be able to, because it does not involve the blog. I have two choices here: either roll around in the dirt and tell everyone what it's about, or say nothing and let her propagate the lie that it's about something here. I'm not going to assist her in her desire to play it out publicly, nor will i be dragged down to her level.

Tell you what: observe behaviour over the coming weeks, or go look at the last two weeks, and see which of us is obsessively downdinging even the other's innocuous posts, who is continually trying to pick a fight, and who repeatedly violates all requests that if it can't be civil, have no discussion at all. That is Sharm.

1) It does involve the blog- you lied to me and this community about your motivations for joining. I would not have befriended you otherwise.

2) Picking fights? That would be you and Xxxmah. To the point this new accusation is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. Srsly. I hope you know people are laughing their asses off at you, including me.

3)

629 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:43:12am

re: #622 iceweasel

re: #628 Sharmuta

Not laughing, kinda bummed.

630 Ian MacGregor  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:53:32am

re: #277 Dark_Falcon

Society decided to honor marriage and give couples in that institution certain benefits not given to those who are not. This was discrimination, but it was thought to be a good thing. The primary reason for the raising of marriage to a higher place was to provide a stable place to raise children.

Then the pill came along. Often people think of the pill as liberating sex outside of marriage, but its impact inside marriage was tremendous. There was no longer any worry of another child after sexual union. Just as there is no danger of conception from gay sex. I'm not arguing against contraception or the pill, but the new freedom inside marriage changed the dynamic. Marriage license became more society's stamp of approval for having sex, than an institution for child-rearing.

Once this happened the arguments against gay couples being married become prejudicial. The next question to ask is why do these benefits depend on sexual relations at all. Perhaps a brother and sister, living together in a non-incestuous relationship, should also be given the same benefits. Perhaps heterosexual couples who choose not to marry should also be given the same benefits. Marriage then loses its place of honor.

This brings up the question. Is discrimination ever a good thing. Was society right to elevate marriage in the first place?

631 The Left  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:56:41am

re: #628 Sharmuta

1) It does involve the blog- you lied to me and this community about your motivations for joining. I would not have befriended you otherwise.

No, Sharmuta. You are angry at me for personal reasons having to do with events offline. You have refused to communicate there about it. So you have initiated a witchhunt to find any reason possible to pick a fight here and play it out in public, settling on this ridiculous claim that I 'lied about [my] motivations in joining here.'

I think I can do no better than to quote something you said just two days ago to me, ironically,:

You do know what they say about assuming, don't you? Unless you have the ability to read hearts and minds, I suggest you quit assigning motivations to others.

2) Picking fights? That would be you and Xxxmah. To the point this new accusation is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. Srsly. I hope you know people are laughing their asses off at you, including me.

Sharmuta, you are the one who has been making accusations and picking fights ever since I came back from my last trip. Anyone reading the thread I just linked can see that, or viewing what has been going on here the last few days. BTW, I wish i could believe you were 'laughing', because then you would be happy. It is clear you are not.

3) [Video]


It's clear that video means something to you. It's at least the 5th time you've felt the need to post it as a 'response' to me. The lyrics are more appropriate to a jilted lover than to someone who is angry over an objective, rational reason. (I'm not looking but I assume it's the same foofighters vid)

I'm going to repost something I have said to you twice before here:

I think your statements here and your tone make clear to those reading that what's going on here is motivated by a personal vendetta or personal dislike on your part. Consequently, I'll suggest this: if you dislike me or my posts, just don't read them.
If you have a personal issue to sort out with me, let's do so off the blog. I'm happy to continue having polite and objective political discussions with you here. If we can't do that, then just avoid me.

The worst thing here is that whatever you believe now, I really liked you, cared for you and worried about you personally. You won't talk with me privately, and want to play things out here, pretending it's about LGF. You and I and Jimmah know it is not.
I have a lot going on today. I'm not going to respond further to anything you say to me on LGF that continues this craziness. I hope we can conduct a civil relationship publicly, or failing that you can at least ignore me. I wish we could repair our friendship but you stopped answering my emails and decided to do this instead.
Believe it or not, I miss you, I feel bad for you, and I wish you well.
Take care of yourself.

632 Sharmuta  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:57:46am

re: #631 iceweasel

You lie.

633 wee fury  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:54:07am

re: #632 Sharmuta

I updinged -- just to even the playing field.

634 akarra  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:27:19am

I'm thrilled Think Progress took note of the abuse Charles has been taking from the right for merely pointing out the truth about Beck and Hoffman's affiliation with him: I can't say the final paragraph in the blog entry about "corporate front groups" is one I'm especially thrilled with - it's important to call out the crazies and paleocons without implying a resort to other conspiracy theories.

635 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:45am

re: #603 iceweasel

No you didn't at all. I appreciate how you always want to play peacemaker. The fact is that this should have been resolved offline between the parties involved and shouldn't be discussed here.

Oh, cut the bullshit, Ice. Others here tried to play peacemaker and got accused, by you, of defending your opponent. You don't appreciate anyone playing peacemaker as it interferes with your attacks.

636 Irish Rose  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:10:18pm

re: #635 Honorary Yooper

Exactly.

637 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 5:28:48pm

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