Jim Hoft Praises Insane Conspiracy Site for Picking Up His Homophobic Smears

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Gateway Pundit (Jim Hoft) is giddy with praise for the “Bulgarian media,” because they picked up on his disgusting homophobic smears of Obama’s education minister Kevin Jennings: The State-Run Media Won’t Touch It… But Bulgarians Not Afraid to Report on Jennings Fistgate Scandal.

Hoft thinks the American media are deliberately ignoring the story, to cover for President Obama. It apparently doesn’t even enter his consciousness that the reason US media are ignoring him is because the source for everything he’s been posting is a vicious anti-gay hate group, Mass Resistance, out and out homophobic bigots from the Dark Ages, with absolutely no credibility.

So instead he praises the “courageous” Bulgarian media.

Meanwhile, let’s take a closer look at the website of the Bulgarian author he’s praising: Ivan Stamenov — a completely insane conspiracy site that also features articles by Alex Jones, articles about the Illuminati and the New World Order and UFOs, anti-vaccination insanity, and bizarre prophecies of the end of the world. (Hat tip: Gus 802.)

Some of the titles now posted there:

Decade of despotism - by Alex Jones, Steve Watson and Paul Watson

Third World War in the prophecies of Alois Irlmayer - Extract from Kremanskoto prophecy of Mitar Tarabich

Carbon eugenics: genocide over their environment is genocide

Chilling: Document of the UN describes the objectives of the new global religion

Across the Russian archives: Aliens fall for oceans

Entente in Copenhagen establish the structure of global government

It’s almost unbelievable how creepy and weird the right wing blogosphere is getting.

UPDATE at 1/1/10 3:44:05 pm:

The Ivan Stamenov website also features the work of notorious antisemitic artist David Dees.

Jump to bottom

385 comments
1 Henchman Ghazi-808  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:41:52pm

This is gonna leave a mark.

2 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:42:56pm

Whee! Hoft's in the money now, the kookspiracists will be following him. He can pimp naturopathic cures, gold, survival gear and faraday cage wallets!

3 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:44:27pm

/wow, they must be pretty bored in Bulgaria, don't they have football or something?

4 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:44:30pm

"Things are very bad in Bulgaria, the devil has the people by the throat."

Name that movie!

5 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:44:36pm

re: #2 Thanos

Whee! Hoft's in the money now, the kookspiracists will be following him. He can pimp naturopathic cures, gold, survival gear and faraday cage wallets!

I see an avalanche of Coast to Coast/Paulians becoming members at GWP.

6 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:44:38pm

Don't forget to look at this insanity at the site that Jim Hoft/Gateway Pundit links to.

re: #138 Gus 802

Gateway Pundit/Jim Holt links to anti-American website.

Fixed link. Click on the link and quickly scroll down to see the imagery.

Also a side note. That's not Bulgarian media. Jim Hoft is linking to an Illuminati/prophecy conspiracy web site.

7 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:45:33pm

The Bad Craziness is strong in Hoft.

BBL

8 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:50:13pm

Busted!

9 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:52:06pm

Ivan Stamenov at Gateway Pundit:

Ivan Stamenov
January 1st, 2010 %P% 4:39 pm %P% #19

Dear friends, especially you, Agent99, you don’t have to be ashamed by Jennings, Holdren, or any other prick that bows to Obama and his corporate/bankster masters. Google Translate kinda sucks… so I can assure you personally that my article is not anti-American in any way. There are many similar examples of mad politics and dirty agendas all over the world. Thank you for the original article about Jennings’ lunacy, all I can do is support you by translating it into other Slavonic languages. In case you care, the article on my site is in Bulgarian, not Russian.

Take care and godspeed!

He says that not anti-American? Well, how about Ivan Stamenov explain this article over at his website.

Make note of the dog whistle in his comment: corporate/bankster masters.

10 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:52:53pm

Few comments, I suspect a lot of us are speechless over the bright, burning, blazing, stupid.

11 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:52:59pm

re: #2 Thanos

Whee! Hoft's in the money now, the kookspiracists will be following him. He can pimp naturopathic cures, gold, survival gear and faraday cage wallets!

Hey now, those faraday cage wallets look pretty cool if you ask me.

/too bad I don't carry a wallet

12 tradewind  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:55:07pm

re: #4 SanFranciscoZionist
Of all the gin joints in all the world'........

13 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:56:25pm

re: #12 tradewind

"I'm a drunkard. That makes me a citizen of the world."

14 tradewind  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:57:28pm

re: #13 iceweasel
You like it too.
:) Best movie evah.

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:58:07pm

Very good!

16 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:59:38pm

There was this Yugoslav kid in my high school who was just a pretentious pain in the ass. On one notable occasion he told a group of us that 'you have not suffered as I have suffered...because I am a Yugoslavian!"

It took every ounce of self-control my seventeen-year-old self had not to answer, "You were a Yugoslavian. You're now a citizen of the Third Reich." He wouldn't have gotten it.

17 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:59:40pm

More insanity from Jim Hoft's new friend, Ivan Stamenov:

Yes, slowly but awaken. Sometimes the simplest truths are damn hard to rationalization. A really simple: If you want to stop terrorism, stop by politseyshtinata in foreign countries. It's that simple! Migar Obama will interrupt his vacation to Hawaii to shoot a gun in their native desert places ... No, of course, will have American or naïve youngsters from their peers hired armies in Europe to do the dirty work. As ever.

18 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 2:59:48pm

What is the deal with Hoft anyway? Was Gateway Pundit ever halfway decent? I took a look at the comments thread over there maybe a year ago and was appalled at the crazy. Ace o Spades and Hot Air type crazy and cruel.

Is he someone who was always a lunatic or one of the ones who just gave in to crazy post-election?

19 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:01:41pm

Folks like Hoft, and other right-wing pundits, will go back to denouncing the Jones types the minute a republican president is elected. If that ever happens.

20 tradewind  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:05:37pm

Happy New Year ya'll.... Auburn won, and as long as they're not playing Alabama, that's a good thing.
Have to wait a whole week to watch the Tide roll over TX.
Off to dish out the dinner.

21 Girth  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:06:03pm

re: #19 Slumbering Behemoth

Folks like Hoft, and other right-wing pundits, will go back to denouncing the Jones types the minute a republican president is elected. If that ever happens.

And that republican will need to denounce them first if he wants my vote.

22 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:06:58pm

Here you go. To add insult to old school conservatives in light of this news. Jim Hoft was chosen as one of the top 10 Conservatives to watch of 2009.

Way to get an early start on the insanity.

23 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:09:10pm

re: #21 Girth

And that republican will need to denounce them first if he wants my vote.

In the current political climate, I fear that any republican that points inward at the party to expose and denounce the bad crazy will be labeled a RINO, a non-starter. Here's to hoping a new year will change some of that.

/HopenChange!

24 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:09:40pm

re: #22 Gus 802

Here you go. To add insult to old school conservatives in light of this news. Jim Hoft was chosen as one of the top 10 Conservatives to watch of 2009.

Way to get an early start on the insanity.

I've never heard of him (by name) till today

Guess that 'Top To Watch In 2009" didn't really work out well for him here 365 days later!

25 shiplord kirel  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:09:41pm

Note how many of the HA commenters assume that the Bulgarian kook-site is a Russian kook-site even after Hoft spelled out "Bulgarian" in the article.

26 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:10:09pm

YaY! THe Illuminati! Why did it take so long to get here? I feel like I can finally go to sleep now. Robert Anton Wilson, your life has not been in vain!

27 shiplord kirel  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:10:22pm

er, GP commenters.
PIMF again.

28 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:10:33pm

re: #24 sattv4u2

I've never heard of him (by name) till today

Guess that 'Top To Watch In 2009" didn't really work out well for him here 365 days later!

It should have been 2010, OK.

29 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:11:18pm

re: #22 Gus 802

Rand Paul? WTF? Fuckit, I quit.

30 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:11:28pm

More evidence.

31 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:13:47pm

re: #28 Gus 802

It should have been 2010, OK.

He was #9 on the 2009 list

NOT mentioned on the 2010 list

You were right the 1st time

32 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:14:00pm

re: #22 Gus 802

Here you go. To add insult to old school conservatives in light of this news. Jim Hoft was chosen as one of the top 10 Conservatives to watch of 2009.

Way to get an early start on the insanity.

My god, that is a horrible and depressing list, indicative of the total shambles the GOP and the right have become. Sarah Palin? Pawlenty? Erick Erickson, for god's sake?

Better opposition party, pls.

33 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:14:37pm

re: #30 Gus 802

Okay, some of those pictures are as funny as they are crazy.
"Bulgarian media", wow.

34 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:15:14pm

re: #31 sattv4u2

He was #9 on the 2009 list

NOT mentioned on the 2010 list

You were right the 1st time

OK Still recovering from last night on my end.

35 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:17:10pm

re: #34 Gus 802

OK Still recovering from last night on my end.

Lucky you

Worked yesterday 10 a.m, till 10>30 p.m ,, got home, shot off a few fireworks with son and his friends that were staying over

Got up at 7 to be back at work 9 a.m till 10 tonight ,,

uuggghhhh (AND ,, have to be back for another 12 hours tomorrow)

BUT ,, come Sunday ,, I ma getting HAMMERED!

36 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:17:31pm

re: #32 iceweasel

My god, that is a horrible and depressing list, indicative of the total shambles the GOP and the right have become. Sarah Palin? Pawlenty? Erick Erickson, for god's sake?

Better opposition party, pls.

According to David Weigel. I can't figure him out.

37 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:19:15pm

re: #36 Gus 802

According to David Weigel. I can't figure him out.

What can't you figure out?

I'm reading him here as trying gamely to forecast the coming year, not as endorsing these people. ( I'm a big fan of his but haven't read everything by him by any means)

38 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:19:37pm

And today we have bloggers all over the right-o-sphere enthusiastically advocating torture for the NW 253 terrorist.

39 suchislife  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:19:46pm

re: #32 iceweasel

Is Weigel the guy you mentioned some days ago, who used snowpocalypse on twitter?

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:19:56pm

re: #32 iceweasel

My god, that is a horrible and depressing list, indicative of the total shambles the GOP and the right have become. Sarah Palin? Pawlenty? Erick Erickson, for god's sake?

Better opposition party, pls.

Wonder if some right of center Dems might see now as a good time to jump ship and run as what a Newsweek piece a while ago referred to as 'reality-based Republicans'.

41 suchislife  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:20:16pm

re: #39 suchislife

Ah, apparently yes.

42 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:20:27pm

re: #37 iceweasel

What can't you figure out?

I'm reading him here as trying gamely to forecast the coming year, not as endorsing these people. ( I'm a big fan of his but haven't read everything by him by any means)

OK Then I'm reading it wrongly. You're right.

"Just because one studies the devil doesn't mean he worships him."

Something like that.

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:20:54pm

re: #38 Charles

And today we have bloggers all over the right-o-sphere enthusiastically advocating torture for the NW 253 terrorist.

I mean, I don't like the guy, personally...I'm not going to send him a get-well card, or a fruit basket...

44 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:21:50pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

I mean, I don't like the guy, personally...I'm not going to send him a get-well card, or a fruit basket...

Not even a rotten banana,,,, a mushy pear,, a dried up orange !! !?!?!?

45 Escaped Hillbilly  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:22:43pm

re: #22 Gus 802 Whenever I read such lists I always wonder who decides. What are the criteria. I'm afraid the intelligent conservatives have become so marginalized they wouldn't even be listened to if they named their own top 10 or 20. No one has even heard of them. It's their own fault. But I still think we're poorer for it. We really don't want a one party system. And if you think the lunatics in the Liberal arena won't eventually do the same you are not as cynical as I am.

46 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:23:12pm

re: #38 Charles

I don't quite understand, hasn't the current excuse for torture been "sometimes they won't talk!". Not that that would make it right.

But the guy seems to be talking so why would we torture him now? For fun?

47 shiplord kirel  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:23:15pm

Stamenkov himself has now appeared at GP to assure the assembled kooks that his article is "not anti-American in any way."

48 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:24:08pm

re: #39 suchislife

Is Weigel the guy you mentioned some days ago, who used snowpocalypse on twitter?

yep. He also was one of the first on the left AFAIK to pay attention to the fracturing of the right-wing blogosphere. Did a really nice piece on Charles back in April of 2008 or 2007 about the heat he was taking for calling out the rightwing blogosphere's alliance with fascist groups, esp in Europe.

I'm a fan of Weigel for many reasons (he did great work covering NY-23 as well IIRC) and like the Washington Independent in general -- they have spencer ackerman writing for them too, and someone else I like-- Daphne Evers or something like that? She's covered a lot of civil liberties/Gitmo info I think.

49 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:24:16pm

re: #47 shiplord kirel

Honestly, Stamenkov and Hoft's commenters deserve each other. I don't think they'd find much to disagree about.

50 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:25:04pm

re: #25 shiplord kirel

Note how many of the HA commenters assume that the Bulgarian kook-site is a Russian kook-site even after Hoft spelled out "Bulgarian" in the article.

I thought that was pretty funny. It said Bulgarian in the first place. Some people are rather dense and think that anything within the former Soviet Union or Eastern Block was Russian.

51 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:25:44pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

Wonder if some right of center Dems might see now as a good time to jump ship and run as what a Newsweek piece a while ago referred to as 'reality-based Republicans'.

I've wondered that for a while. This would be an excellent time for the Blue Dogs and conservative Dems to do exactly that. IIRC two dems are crossing over or talking about it now, aren't they? I'm not up to speed on events at the moment.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:26:51pm

re: #46 erraticsphinx

I don't quite understand, hasn't the current excuse for torture been "sometimes they won't talk!". Not that that would make it right.

But the guy seems to be talking so why would we torture him now? For fun?

A lot of these folks just seem to want to torture. I think for some of them it's a form of revenge--this guy meant them harm, and they want to hurt him. For some it's an exciting fantasy. For others, there seems to be a fear that rule of law, and not, you know, torturing people, is a dangerous weakness in the U.S. that we have to get over.

53 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:27:18pm

re: #42 Gus 802

OK Then I'm reading it wrongly. You're right.

"Just because one studies the devil doesn't mean he worships him."

Something like that.

Exactly. Weigle has spent the better part of this year running pieces on the Tea Party and that is informing his take on who's of influence on the right. The Independent is a left leaning cyber-daily. In my opinion, David Weigle and Spencer Ackerman are two of the brighter, younger lefty journalists covering politics who have are not part of the inside the beltway love fest (cough Ezra cough Klein).

54 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:27:31pm

re: #51 iceweasel

I've wondered that for a while. This would be an excellent time for the Blue Dogs and conservative Dems to do exactly that. IIRC two dems are crossing over or talking about it now, aren't they? I'm not up to speed on events at the moment.

the mid term elections are going to be interesting...

55 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:27:52pm

re: #46 erraticsphinx

I don't quite understand, hasn't the current excuse for torture been "sometimes they won't talk!". Not that that would make it right.

But the guy seems to be talking so why would we torture him now? For fun?

Because torture eventually becomes an end in itself.

That's why torture destroys the moral fabric of nations that endorse it, and those tasked with performing the torture as well.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:28:15pm

re: #54 brookly red

the mid term elections are going to be interesting...

That, at least, they are. At this point, I have no bloody idea what's going to happen.

57 Girth  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:28:34pm

re: #48 iceweasel

He used to be an editor at Reason.

58 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:28:46pm

re: #53 Jeff In Ohio

Exactly. Weigle has spent the better part of this year running pieces on the Tea Party and that is informing his take on who's of influence on the right. The Independent is a left leaning cyber-daily. In my opinion, David Weigle and Spencer Ackerman are two of the brighter, younger lefty journalists covering politics who have are not part of the inside the beltway love fest (cough Ezra cough Klein).

EXACTLY. And I'd give you another upding re: ezra if I could. *cough*

59 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:30:01pm

re: #55 iceweasel

May the Constitution save us from these sick, sick people.

60 shiplord kirel  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:31:08pm

re: #46 erraticsphinx

I don't quite understand, hasn't the current excuse for torture been "sometimes they won't talk!". Not that that would make it right.

But the guy seems to be talking so why would we torture him now? For fun?

How could we trust anything he said anyway? It may only be my inner caveman coming out, but a guy who sets fire to this own johnson would not seem to be an overly credible source for much of anything.

61 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:31:10pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

That, at least, they are. At this point, I have no bloody idea what's going to happen.

I am predicting a bad time for incumbents in both parties.

62 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:32:27pm

Interesting comments over at gateway pundit. They're figuring out what the Paulians have started to notice; Pravda, Russia Today and other soviet propaganda agencies are suddenly very popular with American conservatives.

63 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:32:50pm

Hoft used to appear semi sane a few years back, and I used to link to him regularly. He appeared as a liberty blogger more than a hardcore RR blogger. Sometime over the past few years he slipped over the edge and into the abyss. (I detected a notable change after that right wing blogger group consortium conference or whatever it was in TX sometime before the elections last year)

Notice the extreme paranoia evident in this verbiage from him:

"The State-Run Media Won’t Touch It…"

and that's in his freaking headline for the story...

Anyway I dropped him sometime last year or the year before as he became increasingly more looneytunes.

64 suchislife  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:33:06pm

re: #58 iceweasel

Oh, I was under the impression that you thought Ezra Klein was being more reasonable about the health care debate then others? Or am I reading this wrong?

65 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:33:25pm

re: #63 Thanos

Hoft used to appear semi sane a few years back, and I used to link to him regularly. He appeared as a liberty blogger more than a hardcore RR blogger. Sometime over the past few years he slipped over the edge and into the abyss. (I detected a notable change after that right wing blogger group consortium conference or whatever it was in TX sometime before the elections last year)

Notice the extreme paranoia evident in this verbiage from him:

and that's in his freaking headline for the story...

Anyway I dropped him sometime last year or the year before as he became increasingly more looneytunes.

Ironically when I read "state-run media" I was reminded of Noam Chomsky.

66 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:33:55pm

re: #54 brookly red

the mid term elections are going to be interesting...

My district, Ohio 2, is going to be real interesting. We elected Steve Driehaus, a right of center Dem with strong pro-life tendencies, but who has supported cap and trade and HCR. Driehaus, is pretty well spoken, intelligent and sticks to his guns. He beat out Steve Chabot, our 20 year GOP congressman who, though he brought home the bacon and wasn't pocketing any serious special interest dough, was clearly not the brightest bulb in the room and clearly voted party over district.

67 darthstar  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:34:24pm

Now he's just another teablogger.

68 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:34:39pm

This is a representative of the kind of stuff posted by right wingers at Twitter on the #tcot feed: [Link: twitter.com...]

Some of her tweets:

Muslim in Chief hussein may soon meet his match, we can only pray #tcot

[...]

Obama your committing Treason against America, Adhering to our Enemies,giving them Aid and Comfort #tcot Stop Interpol Executive Order

[...]

The terrorism I am experiencing is coming from the WH.//Muslim in Chief, Terrorist in Chief same radical

[...]

Creeping Sharia – 2009 in Review [Link: bit.ly...] it will come down 2 kill or be killed under Sharia Law

[...]

If Obama has not ordered the waterboarding of the crotch bomber he is not serious about keeping the american people safe.

[...]

That Muslim bomber needs skin grafts to his scrotum lets put pig grafts on for him #tcot

It goes on and on like this, spewing hatred all day long.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:35:16pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Interesting comments over at gateway pundit. They're figuring out what the Paulians have started to notice; Pravda, Russia Today and other soviet propaganda agencies are suddenly very popular with American conservatives wingnuts.

FTFY.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:35:48pm

re: #65 Gus 802

Ironically when I read "state-run media" I was reminded of Noam Chomsky.

"What if I want to have two girls explain Noam Chomsky to me?"

71 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:35:59pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Interesting comments over at gateway pundit. They're figuring out what the Paulians have started to notice; Pravda, Russia Today and other soviet propaganda agencies are suddenly very popular with American conservatives.

Jim Hoft just updated it to include the comment from Ivan Stamenov. He must be very proud of his new friend.

Here's some more crazy stuff from Ivan's website.

72 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:35:59pm

re: #68 Charles

This is a representative of the kind of stuff posted by right wingers at Twitter on the #tcot feed: [Link: twitter.com...]

Some of her tweets:

It goes on and on like this, spewing hatred all day long.

Yes, most of the day it runs about 30 tweets a minute...

73 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:38:08pm

re: #64 suchislife

Oh, I was under the impression that you thought Ezra Klein was being more reasonable about the health care debate then others? Or am I reading this wrong?

Ezra definitely was the voice of reason IMO on health care, in terms of chastising those on the left who were angry that it doesn't go far enough. And he's a policy wonk, no doubt about it, and that's what I read him for. And like!

That being said, he is one of the up and coming younguns who are a little too connected to the beltway lovefest, as Jeff pointed out. There's this little circuit of young bloggers/writers/journos who are all part of that little group: Yglesias, McArdle, Klein, etc.
Basically I think the odds are quite high that he'll be a total beltway hack in ten-fifteen years, with a lot of prestige and a lot of good gigs but with little good analysis. I hope I am wrong, but he's one of these people on the track.

74 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:38:33pm

re: #66 Jeff In Ohio

My district, Ohio 2, is going to be real interesting. We elected Steve Driehaus, a right of center Dem with strong pro-life tendencies, but who has supported cap and trade and HCR. Driehaus, is pretty well spoken, intelligent and sticks to his guns. He beat out Steve Chabot, our 20 year GOP congressman who, though he brought home the bacon and wasn't pocketing any serious special interest dough, was clearly not the brightest bulb in the room and clearly voted party over district.

Across the board people are feeling like they/we are not being represented & I don't think that most in DC are reading the writing on the wall.

75 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:38:36pm

re: #71 Gus 802

Jim Hoft just updated it to include the comment from Ivan Stamenov. He must be very proud of his new friend.

Here's some more crazy stuff from Ivan's website.

Ivan Stamenov is using the illustrations of known anti-Semite David Dees!

76 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:38:54pm

re: #60 shiplord kirel

There have been other ways to get the truth out of suspects. Torture is not something decent people should be involved in.

77 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:39:26pm

Thanks for saying dark ages not middle ages Charles.

Happy New Year

78 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:40:14pm

re: #75 Gus 802

Worthy of an update, IMO.

79 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:40:39pm

re: #68 Charles

This is a representative of the kind of stuff posted by right wingers at Twitter on the #tcot feed: [Link: twitter.com...]

Some of her tweets:

It goes on and on like this, spewing hatred all day long.

re: #72 Thanos

Yes, most of the day it runs about 30 tweets a minute...

I've been keeping an eye on tcot for awhile. It's a never ending stream of that kind of rhetoric. I can't keep it running all day because I get overwhelmed and depressed.

80 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:40:41pm

re: #76 erraticsphinx

There have been other ways to get the truth out of suspects. Torture is not something decent people should be involved in.

politicians shouldn't go there either...

81 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:41:07pm

re: #78 Slumbering Behemoth

Worthy of an update, IMO.

3rd one down, here.

82 darthstar  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:41:54pm

re: #79 iceweasel

What does 'tcot' stand for?

83 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:42:07pm

re: #81 Gus 802

3rd one down, here.

More! This page is full of Dees illustrations.

84 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:42:28pm

re: #82 darthstar

What does 'tcot' stand for?

Top conservatives on twitter.

85 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:43:13pm

re: #68 Charles

This lady is friggin' insane.

86 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:43:56pm

re: #83 Gus 802

OMG! The Bohemian Grove! Run for your lives!

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:44:13pm

re: #83 Gus 802

More! This page is full of Dees illustrations.

Well, he's a more interesting artist than the ones the Sovs used in the 80s. I like the waterboarding one. Very intense, with the expression on Condi's face. I suspect he likes her, and wants to show that she's turned on by the power, but her conscience still troubles her.

//Oh dear, what a whackjob.

88 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:44:55pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

"What if I want to have two girls explain Noam Chomsky to me?"

That'll cost extra!

89 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:45:16pm

re: #85 erraticsphinx

She has a prayer for Obama to get eaten by sharks on his Hawaiian vacation, while at the same time talking about her faith in Christ and how the Bible is her favorite book and so on.

God save us from these "Christians". This is a woman with a pre-existing mental condition who has latched on to Christianity.

90 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:45:46pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #61 brookly red

I am predicting a bad time for incumbents in both parties.

I was never a fan of term limits. But the more I think about it, from the perspective that reading about the founders they never envisoined lifetime elected officials coupled with the fact the the Pres is term limited I would be in favor of 2 terms for a senator and no more than 6 for congress

The way the system is stacked now, it's next to impossible to get an incumbent out. Everyone always grouses that we should "throw them all out", but invariably they always say "Well ,, MY guy(lady) is okay, so I don;'t want limits"

91 suchislife  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:46:16pm

re: #73 iceweasel

Interesting. I haven't been following all this long enough to watch a true wonk become a hack, really. I imagine one might either become a hack by succumbing to lazyness due to easier successes, or by exchanging a big tent and challenging peer group for one more partisan.

92 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:47:10pm

Fistgate sounds like a punk band.

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:48:28pm

re: #89 erraticsphinx

She has a prayer for Obama to get eaten by sharks on his Hawaiian vacation, while at the same time talking about her faith in Christ and how the Bible is her favorite book and so on.

God save us from these "Christians". This is a woman with a pre-existing mental condition who has latched on to Christianity.

As with all these people, I have to ask her--you do realize that if Obama gets eaten by sharks, Biden becomes president, right? Not that I believe that either God, or sharks, answer such prayers, but I do want to get to the root of this thought.

94 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:49:39pm

re: #92 Conservative Moonbat

Fistgate sounds like a punk band.

Or the hotel next to the WaterGate where the politicians get their "freak on"

95 jaunte  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:49:56pm

re: #93 SanFranciscoZionist

Logic doesn't mix well with President-eaten-by-sharks fantasies.

96 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:50:01pm

re: #82 darthstar

What does 'tcot' stand for?

As Gus said. The gop hashtag also has some vile stuff pouring through it, but I don't think it's nearly as widely used as the tcot tag.

I've long suspected that there are some other tags out there being used by freepers and worse, and that the tcot tag is only the 'mainstream' (if you will) media version of what's being tweeted by the right. (using 'right' extremely loosely here.)

97 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:51:03pm

re: #90 sattv4u2

In California, the politicians just rotate from one job to another.
It hasn't really worked out like I thought "term limits" would.

98 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:51:50pm

re: #90 sattv4u2

re: #61 brookly red

I was never a fan of term limits. But the more I think about it, from the perspective that reading about the founders they never envisoined lifetime elected officials coupled with the fact the the Pres is term limited I would be in favor of 2 terms for a senator and no more than 6 for congress

The way the system is stacked now, it's next to impossible to get an incumbent out. Everyone always grouses that we should "throw them all out", but invariably they always say "Well ,, MY guy(lady) is okay, so I don;'t want limits"

I am warming to the idea of term limits... In fact when it comes to the gubermit I am liking any kind of limits.

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:52:07pm

re: #95 jaunte

Logic doesn't mix well with President-eaten-by-sharks fantasies.

I think you're right.

Also, Obama would be remembered forever as a Trivial Pursuit question. "What U.S. President was eaten by sharks?"

100 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:53:06pm

re: #93 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, the sharks thing was on her MySpace along with her love of large guns/hate of socialism/love of Fox News etc etc. Not a rational thought in that brain, I'd say. They're not really thinking about what they're saying.

It's just mindless invective/violence/seething/hate. A fantasy.

101 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:54:08pm

re: #93 SanFranciscoZionist

As with all these people, I have to ask her--you do realize that if Obama gets eaten by sharks, Biden becomes president, right? Not that I believe that either God, or sharks, answer such prayers, but I do want to get to the root of this thought.

/I don't want to feed into any conspiracy theories, has anyone actually seen Biden lately?

102 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:54:18pm

re: #91 suchislife

Interesting. I haven't been following all this long enough to watch a true wonk become a hack, really. I imagine one might either become a hack by succumbing to lazyness due to easier successes, or by exchanging a big tent and challenging peer group for one more partisan.


That first one is the worry in re: EK. He's had some stunning success for someone only-- what, 26? 28?

Probably some of this worry is just due to lingering suspicion whenever someone is picked up by major media outlets. I guess it's the lefty political blogger's version of "That band used to be great, then they got a major record deal before I did! Sellouts!" /

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:55:29pm

re: #101 brookly red

/I don't want to feed into any conspiracy theories, has anyone actually seen Biden lately?

Now that you mention it...no...sharks?

104 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:56:04pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

I think you're right.

Also, Obama would be remembered forever as a Trivial Pursuit question. "What U.S. President was eaten by sharks?"

And kids all over the nation will answer

"Is that a new X Box game?"

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:56:51pm

BTW, I am grading my student's essays from before winter break right now. A few tears for the future of America would not come amiss.

106 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:57:05pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

Now that you mention it...no...sharks?

/well the traffic "accidents" didn't work...

107 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:57:23pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

BTW, I am grading my student's essays from before winter break right now. A few tears for the future of America would not come amiss.

What do you teach?

108 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:57:26pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

BTW, I am grading my student's essays from before winter break right now. A few tears for the future of America would not come amiss.

hence my 104!

109 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:57:27pm

Incoming!

Pravichkata to say about Israel ...
Author: David Ike
Translate: Ivan Stamenov

Give it a quick once over and look at the imagery.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:58:06pm

re: #107 Conservative Moonbat

What do you teach?

Ninth grade English at a Catholic high school.

111 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:58:09pm

In case you missed it in spinoff links, Curmudgeon takes on Right Side News

112 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 3:59:13pm

re: #110 SanFranciscoZionist

Ninth grade English at a Catholic high school.

Odd ,, I used to teach ninth grade Catholics at an English High School!!

///

113 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:00:45pm

re: #91 suchislife

Interesting. I haven't been following all this long enough to watch a true wonk become a hack, really. I imagine one might either become a hack by succumbing to lazyness due to easier successes, or by exchanging a big tent and challenging peer group for one more partisan.

We'll see with Ezra. I enjoy his writing and was always a big fan of his when he wrote for the American Prospect and he was one of the main reasons I get that rag. Since then he's moved to WaPo, as well as started the 'journolist' the left leaning mail list of who's who in journalism where they share inside grist and stroke each other's egos. His writing is still on point and he has a larger audience, so that's cool. Then again, he may turn out to be another Marty Peretz after hitting one to many parties. My sister in-law (sadly, soon to be ex in law) works at the Brookings Institute. We've always had fun at holidays comparing notes on whose serving their ego and who's doing real work.

114 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:01:25pm

re: #109 Gus 802

I need a shower now.
The Rothschilds control the US & Israel?
WOW.

115 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:03:24pm

re: #114 Floral Giraffe

I need a shower now.
The Rothschilds control the US & Israel?
WOW.

Big time.

Ivan Stamenov is supporting the anti-Israeli movement. He even went as far as translating that article.

116 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:05:50pm

re: #114 Floral Giraffe

I need a shower now.
The Rothschilds control the US & Israel?
WOW.

That article is by David Icke. Ivan Stamenov translated it.

David Icke - Anti-Semitism controversy (Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the Holocaust)

117 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:05:52pm

re: #109 Gus 802

Incoming!


Author: David Ike
Translate: Ivan Stamenov

Give it a quick once over and look at the imagery.

maybe it is just me but it seems that where ever you find hate you can eventually track it back to it's source...

118 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:07:13pm

re: #117 brookly red

maybe it is just me but it seems that where ever you find hate you can eventually track it back to it's source...

Like I said earlier about the dog whistle: corporate/bankster masters. Now we have David Icke plus the David Dees illustrations.

119 Cathypop  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:07:24pm

O.T. Looks like Oregon is going to get their butts kicked in the Rose Bowl. Oh my! See Ya All tomorrow.

120 suchislife  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:08:11pm

re: #113 Jeff In Ohio

re: #102 iceweasel

We'll see! I know they say nothing changes, but I do think the internet changed quite a lot, especially for journalists. I don't think that it's quite as easy to isolate yourself from critical voices any longer while still retaining some self respect, no matter the success.

Have to go! see you all later.

121 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:08:41pm

re: #119 Cathypop

O.T. Looks like Oregon is going to get their butts kicked in the Rose Bowl. Oh my! See Ya All tomorrow.

It's OSU 16 Oregon 10, Oregon ball on OSU's 35 early 3rd Q

!?!?!?!?!?

122 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:09:32pm

More! Look here!

123 Girth  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:09:59pm

re: #119 Cathypop

O.T. Looks like Oregon is going to get their butts kicked in the Rose Bowl. Oh my! See Ya All tomorrow.

The one day of the year I root for Ohio State.

124 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:10:13pm

re: #113 Jeff In Ohio

We'll see with Ezra. I enjoy his writing and was always a big fan of his when he wrote for the American Prospect and he was one of the main reasons I get that rag. Since then he's moved to WaPo, as well as started the 'journolist' the left leaning mail list of who's who in journalism where they share inside grist and stroke each other's egos. His writing is still on point and he has a larger audience, so that's cool. Then again, he may turn out to be another Marty Peretz after hitting one to many parties. My sister in-law (sadly, soon to be ex in law) works at the Brookings Institute. We've always had fun at holidays comparing notes on whose serving their ego and who's doing real work.

Now THAT sounds interesting. I bet you had some great holiday discussions!

(BTW, the journolist is also part of what makes me worry about Ezra Klein. He strikes me as someone who likes to be liked and likes to get along with people. Nothing wrong with that at all of course, but that temperament is not conducive to criticising the establishment-- especially when one is becoming part of it. But we'll see.)

125 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:10:30pm

re: #111 Thanos

In case you missed it in spinoff links, Curmudgeon takes on Right Side News

Mr. Leonard sez:

Darwin’s theory of natural selection is also logical to accept by those who believe in the Bible because it explains the expansion of life since Noah, the Ark and the great flood. Noah took two of every kind of animal; not two black bears, two brown and two Grizzlies, just two bears total. Natural selection is a logical explanation for how life propagated over the earth again.

Ouch. More brain cells died reading that segment than have died in the service of alcoholic binges.

126 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:13:54pm

re: #123 Girth

The one day of the year I root for Ohio State.

Oregon is driving for the go-ahead score

127 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:15:41pm

re: #122 Gus 802

More! Look here!

OK, I'm sorry, but that looniness is just funny.
Hard to realize that people believe that, um..stuff.

128 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:17:47pm

WHY I DON'T MIND BEING AT WORK ON A HOLIDAY REASONS #101, 102 AND 103

DOUBLE PAY
LIVE GAMES WITHOUT COMMERCIALS
CELTIC WOMEN IN CONCERT IN HD

129 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:21:22pm

re: #120 suchislife

re: #102 iceweasel

We'll see! I know they say nothing changes, but I do think the internet changed quite a lot, especially for journalists. I don't think that it's quite as easy to isolate yourself from critical voices any longer while still retaining some self respect, no matter the success.

I think that's exactly right. Look at what happened when they first opened comments at WaPo and Deborah Howell had her meltdown over how 'incivil' commenters were about her errors.
They try to shift the conversation to how mean and terrible and 'incivil' people are being when they're called on their errors.....but that doesn't change the fact that they've made errors and been called out for it.

This process is a necessary corrective to the poisonous bullshit the media fed us for years virtually unchecked under the Bush admin IMO.

Have a great night! I'm off for a while now too. Cheers all.

130 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:21:46pm

OT

Rush Limbaugh released from hospital... likely return to radio towards end of next week... Developing...

Tests show no ailments after chest pain...

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

131 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:24:02pm

re: #127 Floral Giraffe

OK, I'm sorry, but that looniness is just funny.
Hard to realize that people believe that, um..stuff.

I keep finding a lot of bad stuff at this site. Another one and since it's from the hands of Ivan Stamenov:

...Of these, once again viewers imposes lie that the Iranian president was ready at any moment to erase Israel from the face of the Earth...

Obviously good journalist does not want true democracy in Israel, nor lasting peace. He just wants to demonize the Iranian president, after it iztiposa as fanatical enemy of the Israeli government. Of course, one does not spring bird, as this newspaper. of the year - Wallace, now pales before the more sinister propaganda of falsification in voynolyubtsite. Recently, all mass media, incl. Bulgarian, retold (!) a statement of Amadinedzhad in which determining the Holocaust as a "lie". Here's what he actually says, but retold a quote:

"If the Holocaust, as you claim is true, then why not allow new investigations on this topic?" (Translation into English by PressTV: "If the Holocaust, as you claim, is true, why don't you allow a probe into the issue? ")

One, I think, legitimate question.
Truth is not afraid of revisions.
As for "lies," Iranian use it in the next sentence:

"Zionist regime is a symbol of the lies and fraud coming from the imperialist mindset."

Seeing how I do "interviews" in the U.S. this with lies and fraud sounds very true. And how policy is made, also we have observations. "Saddam is bad, bad, bad ... it bomb with weapons of mass destruction by depleted uranium" because of one die and tens of thousands on both sides. Business goes on and will run until each side is left and one villain. It will take quite some time - attracting business.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:26:28pm

re: #130 sattv4u2

OT

Rush Limbaugh released from hospital... likely return to radio towards end of next week... Developing...

Tests show no ailments after chest pain...

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I can say from experience that physicians tend to get very, very serious when dealing with middle-aged men with chest pain. Often it's from other sources than the scary ones though.

Sounds like Rush will be OK.

133 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:28:27pm

re: #38 Charles

And today we have bloggers all over the right-o-sphere enthusiastically advocating torture for the NW 253 terrorist.

It's sad how "land of the free, home of the brave" has turned into "land of torture advocates, home of the perpetually terrified."

134 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:28:31pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

I can say from experience that physicians tend to get very, very serious when dealing with middle-aged men with chest pain. Often it's from other sources than the scary ones though.

Sounds like Rush will be OK.

As a man on the northern side of "middle age", I can assure you my physician tends the same way towards me!

135 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:30:01pm

I'm off for now, Lizards. Hope this new year brings you all great things.

And kudos to Gus 802 for digging through that cesspool. Good work.

136 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:30:42pm

re: #135 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm off for now, Lizards. Hope this new year brings you all great things.

And kudos to Gus 802 for digging through that cesspool. Good work.

Later Slumbering Behemoth and thanks.

137 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:31:02pm

re: #133 Jaerik

It's sad how "land of the free, home of the brave" has turned into "land of torture advocates, home of the perpetually terrified."

There are 3,000 families of former New York residents that would relish the chance for their loved ones to be "terrified" today, rather than the alternative they were subjected too

NOT advocating torture,,, just perspective!

138 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:31:08pm

re: #134 sattv4u2

As a man on the northern side of "middle age", I can assure you my physician tends the same way towards me!

my doctor ran some tests and determined that my chest pains were directly related to the gf poking me with her finger at the end of every sentence...

139 The Curmudgeon  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:31:39pm

re: #111 Thanos

In case you missed it in spinoff links, Curmudgeon takes on Right Side News

Thanos, you're my biggest fan. Much appreciated.

140 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:32:04pm

re: #138 brookly red

my doctor ran some tests and determined that my chest pains were directly related to the gf poking me with her finger at the end of every sentence...

CURE ,, take two giant steps BACKWARD!

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:33:37pm

re: #134 sattv4u2

As a man on the northern side of "middle age", I can assure you my physician tends the same way towards me!

We actually discovered that my father was diabetic when he went to the ER with some chest pains that turned out to be nothing--but they started running every test known to man on him, and noted the diabetes in passing.

142 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:33:47pm

BBIAW -- have to go pick up some brain bleach.

143 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:34:28pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

We actually discovered that my father was diabetic when he went to the ER with some chest pains that turned out to be nothing--but they started running every test known to man on him, and noted the diabetes in passing.

Caught in time to help him, I hope?

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:36:11pm

re: #137 sattv4u2

There are 3,000 families of former New York residents that would relish the chance for their loved ones to be "terrified" today, rather than the alternative they were subjected too

NOT advocating torture,,, just perspective!

I know.

But we never said 'free until it's easier to give that up, brave until we have something to be scared of'.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:39:22pm

re: #143 sattv4u2

Caught in time to help him, I hope?

Oh yes. He lost thirty pounds, and rejiggered his diet, and has so far stayed off the insulin. Also had an unexpected benefit--for years, I mean since I was a little girl, he'd been prone to fits of anger and frustration that we now think were tied to blood sugar dips. He's been carrying around cheese sandwiches, and his mood is much more level.

Of course, now we are dealing with his lymphoma, and have had to stop chemo for a while, because his stupid platelet count won't cooperate. My husband and I are still working on how we can explain to our parents that this aging crap is not allowed. They are required to stay sixty-something and healthy for the foreseeable future. We have had enough of this getting cancer business.

146 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:39:34pm

re: #144 SanFranciscoZionist

I know.

But we never said 'free until it's easier to give that up, brave until we have something to be scared of'.

unfortunately that is being said a lot lately.

147 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:42:07pm

re: #144 SanFranciscoZionist

I know.

But we never said 'free until it's easier to give that up, brave until we have something to be scared of'.

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. This isn't Patton vs Rommel (yes ,, I know they never actually "met" in battle,, just making a point)
Who is the enemy now? How do we find him? How do we protect innocents? Again, I'm not advocating torture, I'm just saying 9/11 changed a LOT of "rules" of what war is

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:42:15pm

re: #146 brookly red

unfortunately that is being said a lot lately.

Yeah. It is. And it's hard to tell people they shouldn't be scared. There's plenty to be scared of. If this guy's little device hadn't fizzled, we could be mourning for hundreds today. But...it's worth it, what America is. It's worth fighting for, and that doesn't just mean shooting the bad guys, that means preserving ourselves as a nation, morally and philosophically.

149 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:43:32pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

Prayers to you for them. My parents are both 85, so I know what you mean about They are required to stay sixty-something and healthy for the foreseeable future.

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:44:08pm

re: #147 sattv4u2

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. This isn't Patton vs Rommel (yes ,, I know they never actually "met" in battle,, just making a point)
Who is the enemy now? How do we find him? How do we protect innocents? Again, I'm not advocating torture, I'm just saying 9/11 changed a LOT of "rules" of what war is

Well, that's been our problem from the beginning--we're fighting a war with a loosely affiliated group of NGOs, who take support from various nation-states, some of whom are allies of ours. It's sure not easy.

151 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:45:38pm

re: #137 sattv4u2

NOT advocating torture,,, just perspective!

I would argue the correct perspective would be trying to explain to anyone who fought in the Revolution that we would one day advocate torture because 3000 people died 8 years ago.

I have tremendous sympathy for the victims of 9/11, but I thought that America was something worth dying for. If we give up our principles because we're afraid of some crazy blowing up our plane, how can we call ourselves brave anymore?

152 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:45:55pm

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. It is. And it's hard to tell people they shouldn't be scared. There's plenty to be scared of. If this guy's little device hadn't fizzled, we could be mourning for hundreds today. But...it's worth it, what America is. It's worth fighting for, and that doesn't just mean shooting the bad guys, that means preserving ourselves as a nation, morally and philosophically.

yes, I am not afraid of them, I am afraid of us.

153 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:51:00pm

re: #150 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that's been our problem from the beginning--we're fighting a war with a loosely affiliated group of NGOs, who take support from various nation-states, some of whom are allies of ours. It's sure not easy.

It would be a lot easier if those various nation-states were scared shitless. IMO.

154 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:52:03pm

re: #152 brookly red

yes, I am not afraid of them, I am afraid of us.

When I hear someone advocating torture, I see a sociopath, someone without empathy. I always thought there were few sociopaths among us. Now, I think there are a lot more than I eve suspected and it freaks me out.

155 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:52:57pm

re: #154 allegro

ever, even

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:54:40pm

re: #154 allegro

When I hear someone advocating torture, I see a sociopath, someone without empathy. I always thought there were few sociopaths among us. Now, I think there are a lot more than I eve suspected and it freaks me out.

Actually, I think someone wrote a book about that, not long ago. But I don't know if the wanna-torture people are technical sociopaths; I think it's largely a fear-based thing.

157 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:54:50pm

re: #154 allegro

When I hear someone advocating torture, I see a sociopath, someone without empathy. I always thought there were few sociopaths among us. Now, I think there are a lot more than I eve suspected and it freaks me out.

I don't advocate torture. In fact that is what we are fighting against.

158 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:55:28pm

re: #157 brookly red

That's what I got from your post. And I agree.

159 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:57:59pm

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

I think it's largely a fear-based thing.

I think for some, that may be the case. But the ones who seem the most adamant about it are aggressive people, the ones who speak of violence when someone pulls in front of the them on the freeway. That doesn't sound like fear.

160 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:58:03pm

re: #151 Jaerik

I would argue the correct perspective would be trying to explain to anyone who fought in the Revolution that we would one day advocate torture because 3000 people died 8 years ago.

I have tremendous sympathy for the victims of 9/11, but I thought that America was something worth dying for. If we give up our principles because we're afraid of some crazy blowing up our plane, how can we call ourselves brave anymore?

So until post 9/11 you don;t think extraordinary measures were made to get info from British captives during the Revolution? Union or Confederates during the civil war? Dougboys during WW1? Allies during WW2? grunts during Vietnam?

This is nothing new. What is new is two things. #1, the nature of the enemy, and #2 the 24/7 news, cameras everywherem instant info age we live in

Hell, back in the 40's the "press" didn't even show pictures of FDR in a wheelchair less our enemies as well as our citizens percieved the POTUS as weak. Today, we hear IN DETAIL about every hiccup, burp, and discolored mole of our elected officials

161 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 4:58:05pm

re: #158 allegro

That's what I got from your post. And I agree.

I don't advocate torture, I advocate deterrence. Big time.

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:01:02pm

BBIAB

163 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:01:14pm

re: #153 brookly red

It would be a lot easier if those various nation-states were scared shitless. IMO.

I'd love that too, but... it's hard to figure out how to scare people shitless when half the world's military budget hasn't seemed to do the trick so far.

164 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:01:59pm

re: #159 allegro

It's probably a toxic mixture of fear and aggression.

165 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:03:22pm

re: #164 erraticsphinx

It's probably a toxic mixture of fear and aggression.

Very likely, with "toxic" being the operative word. That combination certainly does lead to an irrational and over-reactive response.

166 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:04:04pm

re: #163 Jaerik

I'd love that too, but... it's hard to figure out how to scare people shitless when half the world's military budget hasn't seemed to do the trick so far.

location, location, location...

167 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:04:19pm

re: #138 brookly red

my doctor ran some tests and determined that my chest pains were directly related to the gf poking me with her finger at the end of every sentence...

My wife made me go in for hearing tests as I say what to much for her. When I got home, she asked me what he said, if I needed the hearing aide. No, I said, he gave me a prescription which I handed to her and requested her to read it out loud:

"Tell your wife to speak up."

168 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:05:20pm

re: #163 Jaerik

"...hard to figure out how to scare people shitless..."

Funny, earlier today I watched a great movies called "Doubt", where Meril Streep played a 1964 Catholic school principal. Damn, set her loose to scare the crap out of anyone, individual OR nation. heh

169 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:06:10pm

re: #167 Jeff In Ohio

My wife made me go in for hearing tests as I say what to much for her. When I got home, she asked me what he said, if I needed the hearing aide. No, I said, he gave me a prescription which I handed to her and requested her to read it out loud:

"Tell your wife to speak up."

are you covered for that?

170 Taqyia2Me  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:06:28pm

Anybody else think of Sargeant Schultz from Hogan's Heroes when considering TSA capabilities?
That's scary to me.

171 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:08:38pm

re: #160 sattv4u2

Whenever someone advocates torture, or suspending habeus corpus, or wire-tapping citizens, or any other "necessary" steps to defend citizens from the (still) roughly 1 in 6,000,000 chance of dying in a terrorist attack, I have to ask: what exactly would you say we're fighting for, then?

What's left to defend? Football on Sundays?

172 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:08:50pm

re: #163 Jaerik

I'd love that too, but... it's hard to figure out how to scare people shitless when half the world's military budget hasn't seemed to do the trick so far.

I wonder how much of that is spent on keeping troops in such places as South Vietnam, Germany, the Middle East (excluding Iraq) et al to ensure a balance of power. If not for the US's presence, how long ago would have South Korea fallen to the north?

ALSO, from the note on the bottom it includes funding for TWO war fronts, Iraq and Afghan. How many of the othre nations on that list are doing that

ALSO, from the note on the bottom comes the gem that it includes funding Nuclear Weapon facilities
How many other nations on that list have that?

Whats that old saw,,, Freedom has A PRICE!?!?

Sometimes a pie chart is just a pie chart

173 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:10:20pm

re: #171 Jaerik

Whenever someone advocates torture, or suspending habeus corpus, or wire-tapping citizens, or any other "necessary" steps to defend citizens from the (still) roughly 1 in 6,000,000 chance of dying in a terrorist attack, I have to ask: what exactly would you say we're fighting for, then?

What's left to defend? Football on Sundays?

I wouldn't know, as I haven't "advocated torture".

174 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:12:15pm

re: #172 sattv4u2

I wonder how much of that is spent on keeping troops in such places as South Vietnam, Germany, the Middle East (excluding Iraq) et al to ensure a balance of power.

Balance of power against whom?

175 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:12:42pm

re: #171 Jaerik

Whenever someone advocates torture, or suspending habeus corpus, or wire-tapping citizens, or any other "necessary" steps to defend citizens from the (still) roughly 1 in 6,000,000 chance of dying in a terrorist attack, I have to ask: what exactly would you say we're fighting for, then?

What's left to defend? Football on Sundays?

no one is advocating torture, here have a q-tip.

176 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:13:25pm

re: #173 sattv4u2

I wouldn't know, as I haven't "advocated torture".

Alright, replace "advocate" with "condone" then, and my question still stands.

177 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:14:04pm

re: #174 allegro

Balance of power against whom?

South Korea, the north
The Middle East, used to be Saddam, since then being in close proximity in case Iran or Syria 1st strikes Israel. In western Europe a resurgent Russia

178 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:15:02pm

re: #176 Jaerik

Alright, replace "advocate" with "condone" then, and my question still stands.

strike 2 ,, didn't "condone" it either

I did explain it, I do understand it

179 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:16:54pm

re: #177 sattv4u2

South Korea, the north
The Middle East, used to be Saddam, since then being in close proximity in case Iran or Syria 1st strikes Israel. In western Europe a resurgent Russia

Just to play "what if"... what if we closed those bases and stopped spending lives and fortune in such a way. What if...?

180 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:18:28pm

re: #179 allegro

Just to play "what if"... what if we closed those bases and stopped spending lives and fortune in such a way. What if...?

I don't know, I guess you will have to ask Obama and his administration, considering he promised to stop rendition and to also close Gitmo, and he is not doing either.

I'd like to see him follow through, wouldn't you?

181 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:18:32pm

re: #179 allegro

Just to play "what if"... what if we closed those bases and stopped spending lives and fortune in such a way. What if...?

/Lower taxes! (ha ha ha) just a joke.

182 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:19:46pm

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

I'd like to see him follow through, wouldn't you?

Absolutely.

183 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:20:24pm

re: #182 allegro

Absolutely.

Well, he didn't... own it.

184 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:20:55pm

re: #179 allegro

Just to play "what if"... what if we closed those bases and stopped spending lives and fortune in such a way. What if...?

Okay ,, what if

You've just ceded the Korean peninsula to Kim Jong Il, probably Israel to Hamas/ Hezzbo/ DinnerJacket/ Assad, places like Georgia, the Ukraine, Belarus to the Russians. God knows what happens to India

Sleeping better now!?!?!

185 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:20:57pm

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

Well, he didn't... own it.

What makes you think I have any particular influence?

186 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:21:00pm

re: #178 sattv4u2

strike 2 ,, didn't "condone" it either

I did explain it, I do understand it

You're mincing words, here. Either you reject the use of torture in all circumstances or you condone its use in some. Which is it? And if the latter, which circumstances specifically?

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

I'd like to see him follow through, wouldn't you?

Biggest disappointment for me in his administration so far, yes.

187 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:21:15pm

re: #182 allegro

Absolutely.

You need to be asking your "side" those questions.

188 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:23:16pm

re: #186 Jaerik

Biggest disappointment for me in his administration so far, yes.

Then, I would be asking "your side" these questions, not conservatives. We don't have a majority in Congress, we don't have a majority in the house... the left hold all the cards. Stop whining... the ball is in your court.

re: #185 allegro

What makes you think I have any particular influence?

Evidently you don't. Ha... you thought you were voting for some hope and change... how's that working out?

189 Girth  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:23:50pm

Congrats Ohio State, now I can go back to hating you for the other 364 days of the year.

190 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:23:53pm

re: #186 Jaerik

Biggest disappointment for me in his administration so far, yes.

Bullshit,,, I'm not "mincing words". You TRIED to labell both Brookly Red and myself with "advocating" and "condoning" torture. Nothing that either of us posted states that

You're not going to assign something to me then make me defend it

191 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:24:09pm

re: #189 Girth

Congrats Ohio State, now I can go back to hating you for the other 364 days of the year.

LOL

192 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:24:33pm

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

Evidently you don't. Ha... you thought you were voting for some hope and change... how's that working out?

/that is getting close to child abuse Hommie :)

193 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:24:34pm

re: #185 allegro

What makes you think I have any particular influence?

your party needs to purge the loonies...make them pay you back for your votes and do what they said they would...meanwhile the dems are imploding and will soon be powerless...something like that

194 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:25:02pm

re: #188 Walter L. Newton


Evidently you don't. Ha... you thought you were voting for some hope and change... how's that working out?

Not as well as I would like, but I have little doubt that it beats the alternative selection by a long shot.

195 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:25:34pm

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

Good to see the new year hasn't mellowed you!

Happy New Year, my freind!

196 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:25:40pm

re: #189 Girth

Congrats Ohio State, now I can go back to hating you for the other 364 days of the year.

the Ducks will never win anything with those uniforms

197 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:26:26pm

re: #190 sattv4u2

Bullshit,,, I'm not "mincing words". You TRIED to labell both Brookly Red and myself with "advocating" and "condoning" torture. Nothing that either of us posted states that

You're not going to assign something to me then make me defend it

the nerve of some people...

198 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:26:41pm

re: #193 albusteve

your party needs to purge the loonies

Wow, compared to the Republican party currently? Seriously?

199 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:26:52pm

re: #196 albusteve

the Ducks will never win anything with those uniforms

or that nickname

"Oh God ,, I am SO afraid of a DUCK! FEARSOME WARRIORS are they!"

200 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:27:25pm

re: #197 brookly red

the nerve of some people...

When did you stop beating your wife!
/

201 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:27:28pm

re: #199 sattv4u2

or that nickname

"Oh God ,, I am SO afraid of a DUCK! FEARSOME WARRIORS are they!"

FEAR THE DUCK!...heh

202 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:27:57pm

re: #201 albusteve

FEAR THE DUCK!...heh QUACK!

203 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:28:26pm

re: #200 sattv4u2

When did you stop beating your wife!
/

But, but, I am not married...

204 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:28:43pm

re: #198 allegro

Wow, compared to the Republican party currently? Seriously?

the subject was Gitmo and rendition and BOs empty promises, not republicans

205 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:28:47pm

re: #86 Slumbering Behemoth

OMG! The Bohemian Grove! Run for your lives!

The Behemoth Grove. Where we meet and conspire to give Slayer another Grammy and we all have drum circles with 9-piece double-kick kits. :D

206 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:29:06pm

re: #195 sattv4u2

Good to see the new year hasn't mellowed you!

Happy New Year, my freind!

Thanks. It's so amazing. The left owns it all, lock stock and double barrel, yet they just can't stop trying to find ANYONE, anything to blame their problems on. The GOP screwed up the health care bill, the right wants to continue rendition (but Obama didn't stop it, did he), we were going to Copenhagen and getting a binding agreement, we don not have a binding agreement and I could go on and on and on...

Nope, sorry folks, if you don't like what has happened, grab that mirror, take a look in it and kiss you own ass... because the left owns it.

207 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:29:53pm

re: #202 sattv4u2

QUACK 'em again
QUACK 'em again
harder harder!

208 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:29:59pm

re: #195 sattv4u2

Good to see the new year hasn't mellowed you!

Happy New Year, my freind!

Happy New Year to you.

209 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:30:23pm

re: #193 albusteve

your party needs to purge the loonies...make them pay you back for your votes and do what they said they would...meanwhile the dems are imploding and will soon be powerless...something like that

I like how in a threat about the GOP going completely bugassed nuts with bigoted and conspiracy fever dream rhetoric, you're talking about how the DEMS need to purge the loonies.

210 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:30:37pm

re: #204 albusteve

the subject was Gitmo and rendition and BOs empty promises, not republicans

bawwwwwwh! mean person!

211 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:31:24pm

re: #209 WindUpBird

I like how in a threat about the GOP going completely bugassed nuts with bigoted and conspiracy fever dream rhetoric, you're talking about how the DEMS need to purge the loonies.

well don't we?

212 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:31:39pm

re: #209 WindUpBird

I like how in a threat about the GOP going completely bugassed nuts with bigoted and conspiracy fever dream rhetoric, you're talking about how the DEMS need to purge the loonies.

I didn't even look at Charles post...amazing eh?

213 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:32:12pm

re: #204 albusteve

the subject was Gitmo and rendition and BOs empty promises, not republicans

Which I have not defended, nor have I, under any administration.

214 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:32:32pm

re: #211 brookly red

well don't we?

cruel, just harsh dude

215 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:33:06pm

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

I don't know, I guess you will have to ask Obama and his administration, considering he promised to stop rendition and to also close Gitmo, and he is not doing either.

I'd like to see him follow through, wouldn't you?

I was under the impression that closing Gitmo was a very long process, not something that could be done overnight. The Federal Government seems a slow beast, like trying to turn an aircraft carrier.

216 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:33:13pm

re: #213 allegro

Which I have not defended, nor have I, under any administration.

just spreading the love

217 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:33:34pm

re: #213 allegro

Meant to say "nor would I" under any administration.

218 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:33:42pm

re: #212 albusteve

I didn't even look at Charles post...amazing eh?

Not sure if you're being sarcastic!

219 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:34:15pm

re: #215 WindUpBird

I was under the impression that closing Gitmo was a very long process, not something that could be done overnight. The Federal Government seems a slow beast, like trying to turn an aircraft carrier.

it's not over night...the BO deadline is...when?, help me here

220 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:34:45pm

re: #215 WindUpBird

I was under the impression that closing Gitmo was a very long process, not something that could be done overnight. The Federal Government seems a slow beast, like trying to turn an aircraft carrier.

Why? Prisoners get moved from one facility to another every day!

Pack em up,,, move em out. Happens all the time!

221 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:35:05pm

re: #190 sattv4u2

I said that the use of torture to protect America, arguably invalidates the idea of America, and thus becomes philosophically self-defeating. It was a generic rumination and not aimed at anyone whatsoever.

You were the one that jumped up and argued it was perhaps necessary in the past, and even cited examples of where it was potentially justifiable. How am I supposed to interpret that?

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

I ask "my side" those questions all the time. Arguably that's what I'm doing here, right now. If you read my posts above, I never once mentioned conservatives or the right. I'm making a philosophical argument against a particular anti-terrorism policy, regardless of what "side" it comes from.

Assuming I'm on the Dems "side" is pretty short-sighted. I was also against the bailout and not a fan of this health care monstrosity either.

222 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:35:05pm

re: #211 brookly red

well don't we?


I'm still waiting for the Democrat with party influence and lots of TV face time that is as crazyface as Michelle Bachmann. Show Windupbird!

223 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:35:20pm

re: #209 WindUpBird

I like how in a threat about the GOP going completely bugassed nuts with bigoted and conspiracy fever dream rhetoric, you're talking about how the DEMS need to purge the loonies.

It does not matter one whit if the right purges the idiots, the wacky conspiracy nuts or who ever, because until at least 2012, the only party that makes any difference, the only party that can make progress is the left. They have the majority all around.

So, there is no reason for you to even care about the idiots on the right. It is a meaningless diversion being used to try to take the focus off of the fact that the left can't get jack shit accomplished and you have a party that is eating their own.

There is some real craziness coming from the right. It can't effect your majority. Own it.

224 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:35:29pm

re: #220 sattv4u2

Why? Prisoners get moved from one facility to another every day!

Pack em up,,, move em out. Happens all the time!

Sure, happens on a dime! Like magic!

225 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:35:31pm

re: #220 sattv4u2

Why? Prisoners get moved from one facility to another every day!

Pack em up,,, move em out. Happens all the time!

Illinois is nice this time of year

226 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:36:11pm

Am I understanding that ya'll want to see an accelerated process of moving Gitmo prisoners to Illinois as proposed? (Trying to figure out what the hostility is about here since we all seem to agree that we'd like to see Gitmo closed.)

227 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:37:43pm

re: #221 Jaerik

I said that the use of torture to protect America, arguably invalidates the idea of America, and thus becomes philosophically self-defeating

Your original made it sound as if this was something totally new, totally out of the ordinary and had never happened in our history


You were the one that jumped up and argued it was perhaps necessary in the past, and even cited examples of where it was potentially justifiable

Correct, I stated historical examples to show you that this is NOT a "new" thing for countries, including this one, at times of war

228 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:37:48pm

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

It does not matter one whit if the right purges the idiots, the wacky conspiracy nuts or who ever, because until at least 2012, the only party that makes any difference, the only party that can make progress is the left. They have the majority all around.

So, there is no reason for you to even care about the idiots on the right. It is a meaningless diversion being used to try to take the focus off of the fact that the left can't get jack shit accomplished and you have a party that is eating their own.

There is some real craziness coming from the right. It can't effect your majority. Own it.

Oh believe me, I'm well aware the left can't get jck shit accomplished. 8-) Are you under the impression that the modern Democratic party is even controlled by "the left"? I see a bunch of moderates and Blue Dogs with their hand on the tiller.

I don't feel the true "left" has much influence in the party. Sure, the left has influence in certain states, in certain districts, but not over the Dem party platform.

229 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:38:22pm

re: #222 WindUpBird

I'm still waiting for the Democrat with party influence and lots of TV face time that is as crazyface as Michelle Bachmann. Show Windupbird!

oh, that's right you do that television thing... aren't you missing Law & Order right about now?

230 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:38:28pm

re: #221 Jaerik



[snip]
Assuming I'm on the Dems "side" is pretty short-sighted. I was also against the bailout and not a fan of this health care monstrosity either.

Fine, just tell us who's side you are on. Right, left, far left, progressive... I'm not a mind reader. I am a conservative, social liberal (real liberal on the social side)...

Tell me exactly what side you come from?

231 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:38:30pm

re: #224 WindUpBird

Sure, happens on a dime! Like magic!

It's been 3 weeks short of a year ,, or don't you have a calender?

232 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:39:27pm

re: #226 allegro

Am I understanding that ya'll want to see an accelerated process of moving Gitmo prisoners to Illinois as proposed? (Trying to figure out what the hostility is about here since we all seem to agree that we'd like to see Gitmo closed.)

as for myself I being jolly...as for Gitmo I think it is a perfect long term solution to a problem...so ask me, what problem albusteve?

233 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:39:34pm

re: #226 allegro

Am I understanding that ya'll want to see an accelerated process of moving Gitmo prisoners to Illinois as proposed? (Trying to figure out what the hostility is about here since we all seem to agree that we'd like to see Gitmo closed.)

No... I don't want to see Gitmo closed at all... but I want to see the President stick to his promise and get it going... close that sucker just like he said... do it... own it...

234 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:40:54pm

re: #233 Walter L. Newton

No... I don't want to see Gitmo closed at all... but I want to see the President stick to his promise and get it going... close that sucker just like he said... do it... own it...

I am still waiting for my tax cut... you know the one 95% of us would get.

235 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:41:07pm

re: #229 brookly red

oh, that's right you do that television thing... aren't you missing Law & Order right about now?

Still didn't answer my question, babe.

236 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:41:21pm

re: #233 Walter L. Newton

No... I don't want to see Gitmo closed at all... but I want to see the President stick to his promise and get it going... close that sucker just like he said... do it... own it...

So you don't want to see Gitmo closed but you're pissed cuz it hasn't been done?

237 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:41:54pm

re: #235 WindUpBird

Still didn't answer my question, babe.

yes actually I did sweety.

238 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:41:56pm

re: #235 WindUpBird

Still didn't answer my question, babe.

brooklyn red is not an ox...take that back!

239 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:42:06pm

re: #228 WindUpBird

Oh believe me, I'm well aware the left can't get jck shit accomplished. 8-) Are you under the impression that the modern Democratic party is even controlled by "the left"? I see a bunch of moderates and Blue Dogs with their hand on the tiller.

I don't feel the true "left" has much influence in the party. Sure, the left has influence in certain states, in certain districts, but not over the Dem party platform.

Obama invited the true left to the dance and you all danced with him, now own it...

Like I said above, it's amazing who much I am see the true left now try to blame everything that has NOT happened on the GOP, or the crazy right crap we are seeing... now of that really matters... the crazy right nuts are not stopping the left from doing anything...

240 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:43:06pm

re: #237 brookly red

yes actually I did sweety.

Nah, you avoided it. But that's okay, i forgive you.

241 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:43:36pm

re: #239 Walter L. Newton

Obama invited the true left to the dance and you all danced with him, now own it...

Like I said above, it's amazing who much I am see the true left now try to blame everything that has NOT happened on the GOP, or the crazy right crap we are seeing... now of that really matters... the crazy right nuts are not stopping the left from doing anything...

except for spending us into oblivion...

242 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:44:57pm

re: #230 Walter L. Newton

Fine, just tell us who's side you are on. Right, left, far left, progressive... I'm not a mind reader. I am a conservative, social liberal (real liberal on the social side)...

Tell me exactly what side you come from?

We seem to be on the same side. I'm pretty much a nutjob liberal on the social side, but a fairly ruthless, small-government fiscal conservative.

That having been said, as a pragmatist in most issues I have a real hard time with American Exceptionalism and the neoconservative approach to foreign policy.

243 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:45:13pm

re: #240 WindUpBird

Nah, you avoided it. But that's okay, i forgive you.

just cause you can't deal with the answer doesn't make it less of an answer... the left owns the media.

244 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:45:37pm

re: #236 allegro

So you don't want to see Gitmo closed but you're pissed cuz it hasn't been done?

I'm pissed because we have a president who made all sorts of promises, told us how wonderful this and that will be, and how he will do this and that, and how it will bring hope and change to this country...

Right... he says all of what he wanted to do would be a new beginning, I'm pissed... I don't see jack... do you?

245 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:45:52pm

we need a poll...I'll bet a ham sandwich that a large majority of Americans do not want Gitmo closed at this time

246 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:46:23pm

re: #242 Jaerik

We seem to be on the same side. I'm pretty much a nutjob liberal on the social side, but a fairly ruthless, small-government fiscal conservative.

That having been said, as a pragmatist in most issues I have a real hard time with American Exceptionalism and the neoconservative approach to foreign policy.

Don't matter now, does it. Obama is president... the left owns the policy... tell them to get to work...

247 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:46:41pm

re: #244 Walter L. Newton

Right... he says all of what he wanted to do would be a new beginning, I'm pissed... I don't see jack... do you?

Not a lot and yeah, that pisses me off too.

248 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:49:07pm

the Clenched Fist Foreign Policy has not worked at all, in fact it's backfired...BO is getting beaten like a mule, world wide...of course there is the possibility that's all an illusion

249 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:49:15pm

re: #245 albusteve

we need a poll...I'll bet a ham sandwich that a large majority of Americans do not want Gitmo closed at this time

did you take that poll before or after flight 253... just curious.

250 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:49:19pm

I'm so mad Obama hasn't done everything he promised in 11 months. Especially considering the long list of legislative accomplishments Bush and the Republican Congress racked up in their years.

Soo mad.

251 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:49:43pm

re: #243 brookly red

just cause you can't deal with the answer doesn't make it less of an answer... the left owns the media.

Money owns the media, the bottom line, the profit and loss owns the media. And I have seen a lot of push back from the media lately in regards to Obama... why? Because that's what attracts customers...

Hell... NPR kept interviewing all sorts of alternative climate change scientist during Copenhagen, giving them a real fair shake to present their point of view... that's just one example I have seen lately.

Listen close, the media is not so lock step with the left...

252 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:50:27pm

re: #247 allegro

Not a lot and yeah, that pisses me off too.

Then we are in agreement.

253 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:50:36pm

re: #249 brookly red

did you take that poll before or after flight 253... just curious.

you mean the right wing Skivvvie Plot to undo BO and JNap?

254 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:50:39pm

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

It does not matter one whit if the right purges the idiots, the wacky conspiracy nuts or who ever, because until at least 2012, the only party that makes any difference, the only party that can make progress is the left. They have the majority all around.

I disagree. Strongly. It does matter, greatly, that the right wing has been taken over by extremists, racists, and nutjobs of all stripes. This country needs to have two functioning parties to operate correctly -- and one of them is completely out to lunch, with no sign of returning to sanity soon.

So, there is no reason for you to even care about the idiots on the right. It is a meaningless diversion being used to try to take the focus off of the fact that the left can't get jack shit accomplished and you have a party that is eating their own.

There is some real craziness coming from the right. It can't effect your majority. Own it.

And you're ignoring the amazing obscurantism of the Republican Party here. Sure, the Democrats seem to be unable to muster the will to get their legislation passed, but at least part of the blame for this has to fall on the Party of No -- the GOP -- who are doing everything possible to obstruct and prevent the Democrats from getting things done.

This is the way politics has come to be played in this country, and frankly, it sucks. And neither party has a monopoly on that suckiness.

255 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:51:42pm

re: #252 Walter L. Newton

Meant to ask you. Is Cato stopping by on the rebound trip back home?

256 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:51:54pm

re: #250 erraticsphinx

I'm so mad Obama hasn't done everything he promised in 11 months. Especially considering the long list of legislative accomplishments Bush and the Republican Congress racked up in their years.

Soo mad.

Bush and the GOP doesn't count... let's get behind our President and let him know that he is NOT doing what he promised... you with me?

257 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:52:02pm

re: #250 erraticsphinx

I'm so mad Obama hasn't done everything he promised in 11 months. Especially considering the long list of legislative accomplishments Bush and the Republican Congress racked up in their years.

Soo mad.

why consider Bush?.....endless wimpy comparisons accomplish nothing

258 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:52:05pm

re: #254 Charles

And neither party has a monopoly on that suckiness.

No greater truth...

259 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:52:46pm

re: #227 sattv4u2

Your original made it sound as if this was something totally new, totally out of the ordinary and had never happened in our history

If I gave that impression than I apologize. I would argue that even if it happened in the past, it was still categorically wrong to do. I don't think ends ever justify means.

I "understand" the appeal of resorting to extraordinary measures to keep America safe. Who couldn't, really? But there's an extremely fine line between understanding something, and grudgingly accepting it.

re: #246 Walter L. Newton

Don't matter now, does it. Obama is president... the left owns the policy... tell them to get to work...

I am. That's arguably my whole stance in this thread. It's disappointing that they seem to be embracing a foreign policy that they rejected during their campaign.

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:53:23pm

re: #239 Walter L. Newton

Obama invited the true left to the dance and you all danced with him, now own it...

Like I said above, it's amazing who much I am see the true left now try to blame everything that has NOT happened on the GOP, or the crazy right crap we are seeing... now of that really matters... the crazy right nuts are not stopping the left from doing anything...


That;s how you get elected! Fire up the activist base, tack to the middle. I knew exactly what I was getting with Obama. I am not wearing rosed colored glasses. I have not been truly surprised by any of his decisions. I wanted a competent guy with some nuance as my president. That's what I got. Is he doing everything 100% how I'd like? No. Is he doing pretty good? I think so.

The crazy right nuts aren't helping, with their constant opposition to everything in Senate. GOP opposing everything as a bloc helps give moderates and conservative dems more power, because they wind up being the holdouts for all those deals and gimmes. To pretend that the kook right has no effect on the Obama administration, it just doesn't wash. They have an effect!

But I certainly don't blame everything that hasn't happened on the GOP, there's plenty of blame to go around to Democrats as well.

Man, I get the feeling that because I consider myself a liberal, that people believe that means I was hoodwinked by Obama. Nothing could be further from the truth. he's a moderate. I knew he was a moderate. I expected him to govern as a moderate. He's pissing off the far left and he's pissing off the right.

I don't dance with politicians. They have awful music ^_^

261 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:53:35pm

re: #254 Charles

And neither party has a monopoly on that suckiness.

Isn't this where Ojoe comes in and tells us about Hair Pieces ,, or toupees, or something like that !!

262 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:54:48pm

re: #256 Walter L. Newton

Of course, I would be happy to do that. He needs to do what he promised, and much of it has been held up by Republican threats to filibuster so I will give him some slack.
I'm just not going to go into "Liiiiiiiar! OMG OMG promises!" mode because things aren't paradise after 11 months.

263 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:55:22pm

re: #254 Charles

And you're ignoring the amazing obscurantism of the Republican Party here. Sure, the Democrats seem to be unable to muster the will to get their legislation passed, but at least part of the blame for this has to fall on the Party of No -- the GOP -- who are doing everything possible to obstruct and prevent the Democrats from getting things done.

This is the way politics has come to be played in this country, and frankly, it sucks. And neither party has a monopoly on that suckiness.

Charles, after all these years, you should know me well enough that I am not ignoring the wacky right. But the wacky right is not going to get certain things accomplished right now. And whether I want to see these certain things accomplished or not doesn't matter one bit. That's not the issue.

Obstruct... amazing the power you give to the GOP right now. When I see the left all on the same page as Obama, then I'll worry about the obstruction...

264 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:56:44pm

And guess who's first in line to make excuses over that idiot Minnesota GOPer.

265 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:56:47pm

re: #262 erraticsphinx

Of course, I would be happy to do that. He needs to do what he promised, and much of it has been held up by Republican threats to filibuster so I will give him some slack.
I'm just not going to go into "Liiiar! OMG OMG promises!" mode because things aren't paradise after 11 months.

The threats cannot stop a majority... period.

266 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:57:05pm

re: #251 Walter L. Newton

Listen close, the media is not so lock step with the left...

They're not, but confirmation bias is a very powerful thing.

267 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:58:20pm

It's only been since 2006, as far as I know, that it takes 60 votes in the Senate to get a bill passed. As such, the GOP, party of NO, is a huge issue in getting anything done, especially with the block of conservative Dems who work in concert. The GOP is certainly in a position of power to clock meaningful action on any and every issue and is using that daily.

268 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:58:48pm

re: #265 Walter L. Newton

The threats cannot stop a majority... period.

Pelisi and Reid are two of the most heavy handed leaders I can recall at the same time...they openly threaten the GOP and their own blue dogs....there is plenty out there to back that up

269 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:59:00pm

re: #254 Charles

And you're ignoring the amazing obscurantism of the Republican Party here. Sure, the Democrats seem to be unable to muster the will to get their legislation passed, but at least part of the blame for this has to fall on the Party of No -- the GOP -- who are doing everything possible to obstruct and prevent the Democrats from getting things done.

This is the way politics has come to be played in this country, and frankly, it sucks. And neither party has a monopoly on that suckiness.

Bolded for HELL YES. We could have had a GOP that was interested in compromise and actually finding soluions to the very obvious and real problem of health care. Why is it acceptable to anyone that so many bankruptcies and ruined lives are caused by health care bills? They could have been part of a real discussion. i remember a couple of very reasonable GOP members of the House who were proposing some real ideas, and they were just drowned out by the Palian Nation. Instead, we got ravening nutbags whipping up white noise and paranoia and helping do their part to fuck up the country just a little more.

/Going off to be a LIBERAL on Day of Defeat Source

270 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:59:11pm

re: #262 erraticsphinx

Of course, I would be happy to do that. He needs to do what he promised, and much of it has been held up by Republican threats to filibuster so I will give him some slack.
I'm just not going to go into "Liiiar! OMG OMG promises!" mode because things aren't paradise after 11 months.

Now, the honest answer is, you have people on the left who are obstructing, Dems who may vote along with the GOP if they don't get something they want... that's who is obstructing... those are the politicians who are upsetting your majority... not the GOP.

271 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 5:59:30pm

re: #265 Walter L. Newton

The threats cannot stop a majority... period.

Being the majority does not mean the Democrats have carte blanche to do anything they want. There are many political tactics that can be used, and ARE being used, to obstruct the Democrats from making progress.

272 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:00:21pm

re: #268 albusteve

Pelisi and Reid are two of the most heavy handed leaders I can recall at the same time...they openly threaten the GOP and their own blue dogs...there is plenty out there to back that up

They play politics, yes.

I like Pelosi, i like what she's doing. I want a heavy handed leader. I agree Pelosi is heavy handed, I don't agree Reid is.

273 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:01:13pm

re: #267 allegro

[snip]
...especially with the block of conservative Dems who work in concert...
[snip]

Now you found you're REAL obstructionist... they belong to "your side."

274 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:01:29pm

re: #271 Charles

Being the majority does not mean the Democrats have carte blanche to do anything they want. There are many political tactics that can be used, and ARE being used, to obstruct the Democrats from making progress.

What is that?

275 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:01:35pm

re: #271 Charles

Being the majority does not mean the Democrats have carte blanche to do anything they want. There are many political tactics that can be used, and ARE being used, to obstruct the Democrats from making progress.


Like the GOP obstructing Obama's TSA pick! I mean, all these purported security-first republicans, who are totally okay with that. Or who simply donot wish toacknowledge it.

276 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:01:38pm

What do you guys think about the current proposal to eliminate the filibuster?

Sure, it would help Democrats right now. But it would help Republicans just as easily once they're back in power.

The filibuster is nowhere in the Constitution, so arguments from original intent don't seem as valid.

Thoughts?

277 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:02:05pm

re: #265 Walter L. Newton

It's not just filibuster threats, the whole tone of the GOP has been one of embracing conspiracy theories, racists, dominionists, etc etc.

When you have that strong of a band of crazies to wail over Fistgate, Bowgate 1 and 2, Painting-gate, Death Panel-gate, and every other nonsense-gate known to mankind it kind of gums up the works.

278 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:02:18pm

re: #273 Walter L. Newton

Now you found you're REAL obstructionist... they belong to "your side."


Conservative Dems < GOP. :P

279 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:02:27pm

re: #273 Walter L. Newton

Now you found you're REAL obstructionist... they belong to "your side."

A few Democrats do. The ENTIRE Republican party representatives do. They are all obstructionists.

280 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:03:26pm

re: #279 allegro

A few Democrats do. The ENTIRE Republican party representatives do. They are all obstructionists.

Agreed. Now, how do they stop anything?

281 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:04:22pm

re: #277 erraticsphinx

It's not just filibuster threats, the whole tone of the GOP has been one of embracing conspiracy theories, racists, dominionists, etc etc.

When you have that strong of a band of crazies to wail over Fistgate, Bowgate 1 and 2, Painting-gate, Death Panel-gate, and every other nonsense-gate known to mankind it kind of gums up the works.

Yes the whole tone has been crazy... really crazy... how does that stop the Dems?

282 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:04:49pm

re: #271 Charles

Simply stated, I think Walter means that if the Dems stick together they have the votes to pass anything

283 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:05:34pm

re: #282 sattv4u2

Simply stated, I think Walter means that if the Dems stick together they have the votes to pass anything

That was hard.

284 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:05:41pm

re: #280 Walter L. Newton

Agreed. Now, how do they stop anything?

Seriously? Are you arguing just to argue? If Republicans entered the debate in good faith, really wanting to help solve some of the problems we face, then some of them would be voting for legislation to do just that.

285 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:06:11pm

Honestly, not running away... but supper... BB in a bit, but can't stay late, got to get up 5:00am for work tomorrow.

286 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:06:15pm

re: #281 Walter L. Newton

You can't pass legislation when one party is negotiating in bad faith. The Senate proved that.

287 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:06:47pm

re: #286 erraticsphinx

You can't pass legislation when one party is negotiating in bad faith. The Senate proved that.

There it is.

288 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:07:01pm

re: #286 erraticsphinx

You can't pass legislation when one party is negotiating in bad faith. The Senate proved that.

well maybe if you actually get to read it first...

289 Lidane  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:07:38pm

re: #260 WindUpBird

I knew exactly what I was getting with Obama. I am not wearing rosed colored glasses. I have not been truly surprised by any of his decisions. I wanted a competent guy with some nuance as my president. That's what I got. Is he doing everything 100% how I'd like? No. Is he doing pretty good? I think so.

Exactly! Well said. I didn't have any illusions of what he would be like once President Obama took office, and so far, he hasn't really deviated much from my initial impressions. Have I agreed with everything he's done? No. But I never expected to anyway. I can't follow anyone in lockstep. I need to think for myself.

Man, I get the feeling that because I consider myself a liberal, that people believe that means I was hoodwinked by Obama. Nothing could be further from the truth. he's a moderate. I knew he was a moderate. I expected him to govern as a moderate. He's pissing off the far left and he's pissing off the right.

Thank you! If you paid attention to what he actually said and how he ran his campaign, the guy practically had a glowing neon sign over his head that screamed "MODERATE", but folks have consistently assigned all sorts of far left ideals to him that don't really apply.

He's governing exactly as he ran, at least as far as I can tell. And because he's in the middle, he was always going to annoy the activists on both sides. I just wish that the GOP opposition wasn't acting like they were utterly batshit insane. It would be nice to have critics that are just as nuanced and thoughtful as the president appears to be. Instead, we're stuck with loony conspiracy theories and irrational, unhinged rhetoric. It's irritating.

290 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:08:08pm

re: #284 allegro

Seriously? Are you arguing just to argue? If Republicans entered the debate in good faith, really wanting to help solve some of the problems we face, then some of them would be voting for legislation to do just that.

Lets say tomorrow for some unknown reason, NO Repub could get to the senate, non to the floor of Congress for a vote

THATS what Walter is saying, It matters not that every Repub votes NAY, the Dems have the numbers to pass ANYTHING IF they all vote together

They don't need VOTE 1 from a Repub

291 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:08:59pm

re: #288 brookly red

I must have missed non-sequitor day.

292 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:09:00pm

re: #282 sattv4u2

Simply stated, I think Walter means that if the Dems stick together they have the votes to pass anything

and as long as obstructionists like Nelson and Landrieu can be persuaded to get on board

293 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:09:42pm

re: #290 sattv4u2

THATS what Walter is saying, It matters not that every Repub votes NAY, the Dems have the numbers to pass ANYTHING...

I do have to point out that there are only 59 Democrats in the Senate. They were rather rudely reminded of that little reality just a couple weeks ago during the health care debate.

294 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:09:44pm

re: #291 erraticsphinx

I must have missed non-sequitor day.

yeah whatever.

295 Girth  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:09:49pm

re: #286 erraticsphinx

You can't pass legislation when one party is negotiating in bad faith. The Senate proved that.

Unfortunately it is no longer the job of Congress to legislate. Their job is winning re-election.

296 Stanghazi  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:10:00pm

re: #269 WindUpBird

Why is it acceptable to anyone that so many bankruptcies and ruined lives are caused by health care bills? They could have been part of a real discussion. i remember a couple of very reasonable GOP members of the House who were proposing some real ideas, and they were just drowned out by the Palian Nation.

Hello! Both parties ran on health care reform. Both campaigns. The GOP could have contributed, but in my eyes became very fearful of their base and took the path of no.

297 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:10:07pm

re: #292 albusteve

and as long as obstructionists like Nelson and Landrieu can be persuaded to get on board

Then they get their votes! Thats politics.

298 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:11:09pm

re: #284 allegro

Seriously? Are you arguing just to argue? If Republicans entered the debate in good faith, really wanting to help solve some of the problems we face, then some of them would be voting for legislation to do just that.

Pelosi denied debate on GOP HC proposals...Reid did the same...the Dems are walking a very fine line with the Stimulus and now HC...the GOP is not preventing these bills from passing

299 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:12:33pm

re: #293 Jaerik

I do have to point out that there are only 59 Democrats in the Senate. They were rather rudely reminded of that little reality just a couple weeks ago during the health care debate.

Actually, 58. but Sanders and Lieberman both caucus with the Dems.

300 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:13:19pm

re: #299 sattv4u2

Yep, and Lieberman was not negotiating in good faith.

301 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:13:24pm

re: #293 Jaerik

re: #299 sattv4u2

Actually, 58. but Sanders and Lieberman both caucus with the Dems.

AND ,, if Leiberman wants to maintain his committee positions ,, well,,, like I said , thats politics!

302 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:13:49pm

re: #300 erraticsphinx

Yep, and Lieberman was not negotiating in good faith.

I see , and Neslon was!?!?!

303 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:14:08pm

re: #299 sattv4u2

Actually, 58. but Sanders and Lieberman both caucus with the Dems.

Ah, good catch. Still though, gotta point out there aren't technically 60 Dems in the Senate, as a lot of folks think.

I'm actually surprised that Lieberman still caucuses with them. He hasn't seemed to vote with them in quite awhile.

Shame nobody wanted to take me up on my filibuster question. =/

304 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:14:36pm

re: #302 sattv4u2

He was more consistent than Lieberman, if I remember.

305 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:15:21pm

good faith and obstructing....nothing better when the dems cannot get their party to vote together...as for me, I think the HC bills should be obstructed til they die...start over, one chunk at a time...it is a huge fail

306 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:16:59pm

re: #305 albusteve

There we go.

307 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:17:23pm

re: #304 erraticsphinx

He was more consistent than Lieberman, if I remember.

Yes he was,, he ABSOLUTLY was NOT voting FOR the bill (until he made the deal whereby Nebraska would be exempted from having to pay for the coverage of its new Medicaid enrollees—leaving the federal government to pick up the tab)

308 Escaped Hillbilly  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:18:17pm

re: #296 Stanley Sea
Well, I for one don't think the US government is capable of doing anything to help and would probably only make it worse. Every time someone in politics says they are going to make it better, they pass more laws, more regulartion, more beauracracy etc. and it get worse, not better. One reason for our skyrocketing health bills is a jumble of insurance regulations. Another is, stupid lawsuits that get payoffs for "birth injury" for people with cerebral palsy, cancer, and down's syndrome. With that in mind, more obstructionsim is called for, I don't care who does it. I lament the way the wackos have taken over the title of conservative and grabbed hold of the Republican party. I don't like the loonies on the left any better.

309 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:19:00pm

re: #296 Stanley Sea

Why is it acceptable to anyone that so many bankruptcies and ruined lives are caused by health care bills? They could have been part of a real discussion. i remember a couple of very reasonable GOP members of the House who were proposing some real ideas, and they were just drowned out by the Palian Nation.

Hello! Both parties ran on health care reform. Both campaigns. The GOP could have contributed, but in my eyes became very fearful of their base and took the path of no.

google GOP HC proposals....alot of hits there, surf through it...this meme of no contribution is a dead end because it's not true

310 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:19:51pm

re: #274 Walter L. Newton

What is that?

Procedural objections that require a lengthy process before being superceded. Filibusters. Technicalities of all kinds. The list goes on. There are many political tactics that can be used to obstruct progress on legislation, even for a party that doesn't hold a majority.

311 charlz  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:20:49pm

re: #303 Jaerik

I'm actually surprised that Lieberman still caucuses with them. He hasn't seemed to vote with them in quite awhile.

??? He provided needed votes on cloture and passage of health care reform.

312 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:24:35pm

re: #307 sattv4u2


Still more consistent than Lieberman.

313 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:26:54pm

re: #277 erraticsphinx

It's not just filibuster threats, the whole tone of the GOP has been one of embracing conspiracy theories, racists, dominionists, etc etc.

When you have that strong of a band of crazies to wail over Fistgate, Bowgate 1 and 2, Painting-gate, Death Panel-gate, and every other nonsense-gate known to mankind it kind of gums up the works.

Yes, it does.
I personally would prefer that the Dem version of HC reform would not be passed.

HOWEVER, it would have been helpful if somewhere along the line, some Republican, instead of yelling and screaming about the things you've mentioned, had come up with a list of what is wrong with our HC system, what it is that is not working properly and a list of ALTERNATIVE "fixes". I have yet to see, from either party actually, any explanation or any workable alternatives. Surely they exist - and if the Dems are insistent on this version of HC reform, then it would be up to the Republicans to come up with the alternatives, and they simply have not.

314 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:28:13pm

re: #312 erraticsphinx

Still more consistent than Lieberman.

I stated that. Nelson CONSISTENTLY stated he was not voting for that version of the bill. Every time asked, each time interviewed

UNTIL ,,,,,,,,,,

315 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:28:34pm

I don't see two parties here, I see those in the pockets of big money interests, and those that may be less so. Clearly, those who want to solve the problems we face as a nation, are in a minority in both houses.

316 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:31:11pm

I'm still at a loss to understand the rush to pass a 2,000+ page bill that hasn't been thoroughly studied, that will affect a large portion of the economy, that will affect everyone, that in all likelihood will cost well more than its supporters claim, and that is only supported by a bit more than one-third of the population.

Neve waste a crisis, yeah, them's words to live by.

317 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:31:13pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

The way this health care bill has shaken out, it's going to be nothing but a giant windfall for the insurance industry. It will require everyone to have health insurance whether they need it or not, and the politicians who are owned by the insurance industries have managed to completely eliminate the single payer option that would have provided a true alternative that might have made a real difference.

Once again, the huge corporations are the ones who will benefit the most at the end of the day, and the American public will get screwed.

318 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:31:55pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

HR 3400

Included such porvisions as tort reform, tax credits for health savings accounts, allows ins. companiesd to marjet cross state lines

[Link: www.opencongress.org...]

319 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:32:13pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

A good opposition party would be nice, Yes. One with a coherent opposing vision.

Even the local GOP here is pathetic, screaming/yelling about every insane theory without a shred of shame. It's been "Socialism!"x 1000000 since the inauguration. No ideas, no sense of their own history. It's almost like they don't understand why they've lost 2 huge elections in a row.
That makes my choice easy.

320 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:32:18pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

...then it would be up to the Republicans to come up with the alternatives, and they simply have not.

Not technically true, the GOP's site has had the full text of their proposed health care reform bill up for a month or two now.

Unfortunately, it's wildly more expensive than the Democrats' bill according to the CBO, and doesn't really cover anyone that doesn't already have insurance. It doesn't even stop the "pre-existing conditions" problem.

Once I found out that all the Republicans' bills were even more expensive and accomplished very little, I stopped paying attention. I think Reid and Pelosi were right to do the same.

321 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:34:29pm

On DADT and immigration I hope we can skip the months of shameless hysterics by the GOP base and simply have a vote on legislation.

That would be if our system worked.

322 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:37:02pm

Update.

Anti-Israel and anti-American blogger (see here, here, and here) Ivan Stamenov blogs about his new friendship with Jim Hoft/Gateway Pundit.

[Link: www.ivanstamenov.com...]

323 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:37:20pm

re: #321 erraticsphinx

On DADT and immigration I hope we can skip the months of shameless hysterics by the GOP base and simply have a vote on legislation.

That would be if our system worked.

Oh lordie, if you think we've had a helluva year oh freaking health care, these two issues are going to be a nightmare to top all. Though, I doubt DADT will even come up. Not important enough, doncha know.////

324 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:37:43pm

re: #322 Gus 802

Update.

Anti-Israel and anti-American blogger (see here, here, and here) Ivan Stamenov blogs about his new friendship with Jim Hoft/Gateway Pundit.

[Link: www.ivanstamenov.com...]

Do I HAVE too? I just ate !!

325 Escaped Hillbilly  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:38:11pm

re: #320 Jaerik
The "preexisting conditions problem" is one of the things that cannot be fixed by "insurance." The government (taxpayer) provided health care proposed by some yes. But insurance is by definition something which insures against the possibility of loss. You don't get fire damage insurance after the arsonist has struck. This is probably the only reason I would support government sponsored health care of any kind. But I don't trust the crooks in charge to write it in the limited and effective way it needs to be. What say you?

326 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:38:29pm

re: #324 sattv4u2

Do I HAVE too? I just ate !!

You can looks at the Bulgarian version. /

327 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:38:41pm

re: #303 Jaerik

Ah, good catch. Still though, gotta point out there aren't technically 60 Dems in the Senate, as a lot of folks think.

I'm actually surprised that Lieberman still caucuses with them. He hasn't seemed to vote with them in quite awhile.

Shame nobody wanted to take me up on my filibuster question. =/

Ask me next week about the filibuster question and I'll have something more informed to say about it. :) Haven't had time to get into it yet.

BTW, my personal favourite obstructionist tactic by the GOP: pretending to forget their voting cards:

In September, the Orlando Sentinel reported that Rep. Alan Grayson (D-FL) had noticed Republicans House lawmakers intentionally forgetting or losing their voting cards in order to delay votes. Starting late in the summer, Grayson said he saw 60-70 GOP congressmen engaging in this tactic:

(snip)

Yesterday at the Center for American Progress Action Fund, Majority Leader Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-MD) delivered an address on unprecedented minority obstruction of reform. ThinkProgress spoke to him afterwards, and the Majority Leader confirmed that even the House parliamentarian had criticized Republicans for this very tactic. Hoyer admonished what he called “such a transparent effort at solely delay”

The GOP has moved beyond simply being the Party of No, and turned into the party of toddlers who scream "NoNoNO" and hold their breath over, well, everything.

328 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:40:17pm

re: #325 Escaped Hillbilly

What say you?

I say, take profit out of health care with single payer. Problem fixed.

329 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:40:26pm

re: #323 allegro

I think Dems would be wise if they brought up DADT very soon, because:

1) It's about time after the disappointments with health care

2) The American Public needs to know what crawls out of the woodwork on the GOP side

3) It's about time anyway

330 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:40:26pm

re: #322 Gus 802

Update.

Anti-Israel and anti-American blogger (see here, here, and here) Ivan Stamenov blogs about his new friendship with Jim Hoft/Gateway Pundit.

[Link: www.ivanstamenov.com...]

Jim Hoft likes to portray himself as a friend of Israel. And now he's allied with one of the most disgusting antisemites in Europe. All because he hates homosexuals so much, it blinded him to the vile nature of his new friends.

Good work, Jim.

331 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:41:32pm

re: #317 Charles

The way this health care bill has shaken out, it's going to be nothing but a giant windfall for the insurance industry. It will require everyone to have health insurance whether they need it or not, and the politicians who are owned by the insurance industries have managed to completely eliminate the single payer option that would have provided a true alternative that might have made a real difference.

Once again, the huge corporations are the ones who will benefit the most at the end of the day, and the American public will get screwed.

I still think there is an alternative that has not been explored, that would not require all-encompassing federal legisation in a "one-size fits all" mode, that would allow states to have control over the services provided (and therefore be able to tailor their services for the specific needs of their populations.)

And here it is.

I'm 56 years old. That system has been in place as long as I've lived in Louisiana, which is all my life. In fact, it was in place long before I was born, and before my mother was born.

We provide not just emergency care, but clinic care to the indigent and the uninsured in this state. It is not perfect. But it somehow works without breaking the bank. We have low income tax, and virtually no property taxes on our homes (I paid $12 property tax last year). And I am free to have my own insurance.

Other states can do this. It might require a federal mandate to get them to do it; but this system can be copied.

332 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:41:54pm

re: #330 Charles

Jim Hoft likes to portray himself as a friend of Israel. And now he's allied with one of the most disgusting antisemites in Europe.

Good work, Jim.

It's a real head scratcher. We know he won't even take it down and admit to his mistake.

333 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:42:06pm

re: #322 Gus 802

Update.

Anti-Israel and anti-American blogger (see here, here, and here) Ivan Stamenov blogs about his new friendship with Jim Hoft/Gateway Pundit.

[Link: www.ivanstamenov.com...]

You are on a roll tonight, finding this stuff!

334 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:42:36pm

re: #310 Charles

Procedural objections that require a lengthy process before being superceded. Filibusters. Technicalities of all kinds. The list goes on. There are many political tactics that can be used to obstruct progress on legislation, even for a party that doesn't hold a majority.

Obama's predecessor as Senator from Illinois, Peter Fitzgerald, was a master of those tactics. He once introduced around 120 one-word amendments to a bill and then threatened to call for a roll-call vote on each one. He got part of what he was looking for, but not before getting into an ugly argument with John McCain that saw McCain curse him out on the Senate floor.

335 Escaped Hillbilly  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:44:08pm

re: #327 iceweasel
REally this is just another form of fillibustering. Fillibustering has been a time honored political tactic since the first Congress. You can get as mad as you want, but if you don't have the political clout and drive to overcome...you don't have enough people who believe strongly in your legislation...hence they will "win" and you can blame "them". Hey in the politics game this is win-win. Do you think they care?

336 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:44:36pm

re: #328 allegro

I say, take profit out of health care with single payer. Problem fixed.

And payment for doctors and professionals? Would that be cut too? A pay scale for them? Union wage? If so, what of the professions future. Would you spend 8 years in college (not to mention tuition) and another 4-6 in residency knowing that your earning potential is capped?

337 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:45:01pm

re: #333 reine.de.tout

You are on a roll tonight, finding this stuff!

Thanks! I ended up have to translate the keyword from English to Bulgarian in order to conduct the search. Using the word Israel didn't work but the Bulgarian translation, Израел, works. So the Google search form would be like this:

Израел site:ivanstamenov.com

338 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:45:05pm

re: #329 erraticsphinx

I think Dems would be wise if they brought up DADT very soon, because:

1) It's about time after the disappointments with health care

2) The American Public needs to know what crawls out of the woodwork on the GOP side

3) It's about time anyway

I would have agreed with this a few years ago. To me, DADT is such a stupid, non-issue that I can't believe it's even in force in the first place. That said, we have been seeing what has been crawling out of the woodwork for the past year, and it's decidedly ugly, vicious, bigoted, and violent. And that said, it has been over having a black President who was elected with a significant majority and freaking health care. Asking those bigots to accept teh gay???? OMG.

339 Girth  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:46:13pm

The stuff that's going to come up for DADT and immigration will be vile. It's just a matter of how far beneath the surface you'll have to go to see it.

340 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:46:18pm

re: #337 Gus 802

You have earned an extra hour in the jacuzzi tonight, for your hard work!
No, you STILL aren't allowed soap bubbles, though!

341 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:46:33pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Okay I had to LOL when I read the sentence in that page about "We now have to rely on British newspapers for real news!" or something.

News flash far-right:

You're only getting picked up by the *cough* Bulgarian and tabloid English media because they have no standards whatesoever and will print whatever horsheshit comes up the pipe to cater to their semi-literate readership.

It ain't because you're being suppressed by the "state controlled" media here.

342 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:47:02pm

re: #339 Girth

Immigration, the ugly will be right on top.
No need to dig.

343 funky chicken  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:47:04pm

re: #315 allegro

I don't see two parties here, I see those in the pockets of big money interests, and those that may be less so. Clearly, those who want to solve the problems we face as a nation, are in a minority in both houses.

This is also true in matters of public health, which the media has covered a bit lately. Multi-drug resistant TB is a huge problem in Latin America, but we don't screen for it before people come here on tourist visas, and obviously don't screen the illegal immigrants who walk across the border. Neither party is interested in doing anything constructive about the problem...both just want to demogogue and raise money and call each other names.

The other thing is the routine use of antibiotics in animal feed. AP/MSNBC has had a fairly decent series dealing with it, and ... they started doing this crap in the mid nineties (Tyson Foods, Arkansas, and Smithfield Foods, VA were the pioneers), and are doing it to this day, even though the FDA has been up in arms for a while about the rise of multidrug resistant bacteria in farm animals.

How sad that our government is such a load of crap.

344 Escaped Hillbilly  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:47:16pm

re: #328 allegro

Well, at least you have a definite opinion and it is honest. I happen to think healthy competition, free market, and self determination work better. So if we could get the pols to talk about these things and not the bull, maybe we could find some compromise.

345 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:47:19pm

re: #340 Floral Giraffe

You have earned an extra hour in the jacuzzi tonight, for your hard work!
No, you STILL aren't allowed soap bubbles, though!

I dunno, Flo. That translation trick just might have earned him the bubbles!

346 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:47:47pm

re: #340 Floral Giraffe

You have earned an extra hour in the jacuzzi tonight, for your hard work!
No, you STILL aren't allowed soap bubbles, though!

Tiny bubbles!

/

347 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:48:07pm

re: #345 reine.de.tout

He's done awesome digging.
That's for sure!

348 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:48:23pm

re: #346 Gus 802

Tiny bubbles!

/

I do NOT want to see the "bubble machine" !!!

349 albusteve  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:48:33pm

re: #336 sattv4u2

And payment for doctors and professionals? Would that be cut too? A pay scale for them? Union wage? If so, what of the professions future. Would you spend 8 years in college (not to mention tuition) and another 4-6 in residency knowing that your earning potential is capped?

Mayo is shutting down a clinic in AZ because Medicare is crapping all over their docs

350 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:49:15pm

re: #317 Charles

The way this health care bill has shaken out, it's going to be nothing but a giant windfall for the insurance industry. It will require everyone to have health insurance whether they need it or not, and the politicians who are owned by the insurance industries have managed to completely eliminate the single payer option that would have provided a true alternative that might have made a real difference.

Once again, the huge corporations are the ones who will benefit the most at the end of the day, and the American public will get screwed.

I have only one minor quibble with this, and it's the bit about "having health insurance whether they need it or not". Everyone does need it; some people gamble on not needing it-- because they find the cost prohibitive.
Unfortunately, as you noted, the death of single payer (and the deals cut with big pharma) mean that the cost is still going to remain prohibitive for many of those people, only now they also have the joy of being taxed and penalised for it. And the conclusion stands: windfall for the insurance companies, status quo for the politicians beholden to them, and the average individual American gets screwed.

351 brookly red  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:49:24pm

re: #336 sattv4u2

And payment for doctors and professionals? Would that be cut too? A pay scale for them? Union wage? If so, what of the professions future. Would you spend 8 years in college (not to mention tuition) and another 4-6 in residency knowing that your earning potential is capped?

/no problem comrade they will do as they told.

352 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:50:31pm

re: #344 Escaped Hillbilly

Well, at least you have a definite opinion and it is honest. I happen to think healthy competition, free market, and self determination work better. So if we could get the pols to talk about these things and not the bull, maybe we could find some compromise.

I wish. They tend to simply repeat talking points, some because they don't really understand the real issues and others because the TPs are designed to get their base worked up.

353 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:51:38pm

Another update. He comments again over at Gateway Pundit:

Ivan Stamenov
January 1st, 2010 %P% 8:36 pm %P% #24

“An article by Alex Jones, king of the crazy conspiracy theorists”

Here come the marginalizing morons. Propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship.

That straight out of Noam Chomsky's writing: Propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship.

As I've show it's a lot more than Alex Jones.

354 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:53:05pm

That's quite an extreme load of crazy on the David Dees website.

355 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:53:27pm

re: #339 Girth

The stuff that's going to come up for DADT and immigration will be vile. It's just a matter of how far beneath the surface you'll have to go to see it.

Agreed. Lurking racism has exploded into view; I predicted awhile ago that we'd see a lot more homophobia coming out (so to speak) as well.
It's been simmering under the GOP surface for years anyway- recall Coulter's comments at CPAC about Edwards being a 'fag', the many, many aspersions made against Dem politicians in general as 'weak' or 'effeminate' -- take a look at some of the comments on rightwing blogs. The homophobia has ALWAYS been there, much more overtly than the racism until last year. It's going to be vile.

BBL. Have fun folks.

356 allegro  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:53:56pm

re: #344 Escaped Hillbilly

Well, at least you have a definite opinion and it is honest. I happen to think healthy competition, free market, and self determination work better. So if we could get the pols to talk about these things and not the bull, maybe we could find some compromise.

There it is. It's not that I'm wedded to that opinion, it's that it is the one that appears to me, with the information I have, to be the superior option to solve real big problems. If there's one better, go for it. The problem is that no one is going for it, with respect to really addressing the issues. Our legislators are looking to their next election and their bank balances, not to the public good. Those with the money to line those pockets are winning every time.

357 Jaerik  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:54:11pm

re: #325 Escaped Hillbilly

What say you?

I'm actually extremely conflicted about it. (Yeah, I know, someone on a political blog that isn't 100% convinced of their own opinion! Shocker.)

The small-government purist in me rejects any attempt to expand the government into medical care. But on the other hand, there seem to be a lot of practical arguments for single-payer that make sense, and I've spent a lot of time in countries where it seems to work quite well.

Philosophically, I would much rather see the government providing single-payer health care than something like social security. If you don't save for retirement, that's your own damn fault, but the need for health care is (arguably) independent of personal responsibility. And as you also pointed out, there are many things (like the pre-existing condition problem) which can really only be solved by risk-balancing at the highest, collective level.

However, despite all that, the pragmatist in me knows that there's no chance in hell you can simply yank 15% of the entire US economy out of the hands of the private sector and place it in the hands of the public.

So yeah, quite conflicted on this one.

358 sattv4u2  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:55:12pm

Ah well ,, time for the long (and quiet) drive home, where my pillow is calling me!

359 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:56:24pm

re: #353 Gus 802

Another update. He comments again over at Gateway Pundit:

That straight out of Noam Chomsky's writing: Propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship.

As I've show it's a lot more than Alex Jones.

Change that. Propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship is attributable to William Blum. Who is William Blum:

William Blum (born 1933) is an American author, historian, and critic of United States foreign policy. He studied accounting in college. Later he had a low-level computer-related position at the State Department in the mid-1960s. Initially an anti-communist with dreams of becoming a foreign service officer, he said he became disillusioned by the Vietnam War.

Author of Rogue State. The first chapter is titled, "Why Do Terrorists Keep Picking on the United States." He considers the rogue state the United States. This book was endorsed by Osama Bin Laden.

Willliam Blum quote at Jim Hoft's Gateway Pundit blog! lol You can't get anymore stranger than this.

360 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:56:28pm

re: #357 Jaerik

I'm actually extremely conflicted about it. (Yeah, I know, someone on a political blog that isn't 100% convinced of their own opinion! Shocker.)

The small-government purist in me rejects any attempt to expand the government into medical care. But on the other hand, there seem to be a lot of practical arguments for single-payer that make sense, and I've spent a lot of time in countries where it seems to work quite well.

Philosophically, I would much rather see the government providing single-payer health care than something like social security. If you don't save for retirement, that's your own damn fault, but the need for health care is (arguably) independent of personal responsibility. And as you also pointed out, there are many things (like the pre-existing condition problem) which can really only be solved by risk-balancing at the highest, collective level.

However, despite all that, the pragmatist in me knows that there's no chance in hell you can simply yank 15% of the entire US economy out of the hands of the private sector and place it in the hands of the public.

So yeah, quite conflicted on this one.

Well, that's an honest, through, review of the situation. Very good.

361 Escaped Hillbilly  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:57:41pm

re: #357 Jaerik

You sum up some of my own thinking on the matter. Which is why I feel cheated by the current blathering on both sides of the aisle, the media, etc. Nobody is really talking important points and would rather point fingers. It was just vote getter.

362 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:57:54pm

re: #359 Gus 802

Author of Rogue State. The first chapter is titled, "Why Do Terrorists Keep Picking on the United States." He considers the rogue state the United States. This book was endorsed by Osama Bin Laden.

Willliam Blum quote at Jim Hoft's Gateway Pundit blog! lol You can't get anymore stranger than this.

Strange, Hell! That guy is Bats-In-The-Belfry, Bark-At-The-Moon crazy.

363 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 6:58:36pm

re: #362 Dark_Falcon

Strange, Hell! That guy is Bats-In-The-Belfry, Bark-At-The-Moon crazy.

We're talking DU, Indybaymedia meets Alex Jones with this guy. And he has a fan!

364 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:05:00pm

The wingnut blogosphere is getting all stirred up about my post on the Obama shoeshine picture tonight -- because the woman who forwarded it is apparently registered as a Democrat, and that exonerates the right wing of any responsibility.

Yes, really. That's how they think.

365 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:05:34pm

re: #363 Gus 802

We're talking DU, Indybaymedia meets Alex Jones with this guy. And he has a fan!

Just remember if you meet William Blum: Nothing must harm his head. If his thick skull was even cracked, the void of life-sucking stupid within would spill out and suck the entire world into its maw.

/entirely kidding

366 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:05:52pm

And now they're putting my face on the shoeshine boy and circulating that picture. Gotta love it!

367 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:06:09pm

[Link: twitpic.com...]

368 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:06:25pm

re: #364 Charles

The wingnut blogosphere is getting all stirred up about my post on the Obama shoeshine picture tonight -- because the woman who forwarded it is apparently registered as a Democrat, and that exonerates the right wing of any responsibility.

Yes, really. That's how they think.

Probably a Dixiecrat leftover. She's the right age for it and some of them did move west at various times.

369 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:06:31pm

This is painful for me to read. The hosting site, First Things, used to feature long, learned philosophical articles, mostly from a conservative Catholic POV. I used to theme my own blog as a running appreciation of FT. I still admire & respect the late founder, Richard John Neuhaus. He had been a young anti-war activist in the 60s. When South Vietnam and Cambodia fell, he continued to speak out against the injustices being perpetrated by the new rulers. He was rebuked by his fellow proggs, who said that the communists were on the correct side of the world revolution, and were not to be criticized. So, a la David Horowitz, he flipped rightward, though never so shrill as Horowitz.

Now with his passing, heir Jody Bottum & colleagues seem to be trying to broaden their appeal by lowering the tone. In time, the sad result may resemble what happened to The American Mercury after H. L. Mencken left. A shame...

370 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:06:49pm

It's awful to be so insignificant that these morons spend New Year's Day doing things like that.

371 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:07:59pm

re: #366 Charles

And now they're putting my face on the shoeshine boy and circulating that picture. Gotta love it!

They don't take rejection very well, do they?

372 charlz  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:08:39pm

re: #352 Dark_Falcon

I wish. They tend to simply repeat talking points, some because they don't really understand the real issues and others because the TPs are designed to get their base worked up.

The Dems use poll-tested talking points designed to yield the results they want. I'm convinced that the Repubs' strategy is to attempt to peel away a little more of the electorate at the margin on this and every other issue and nontroversy until, they hope, they actually develop issues and candidates that appeal to a majority again. They don't have to "win" any given issue so long as they can whittle down the opposition's support. And that takes poll-tested talking points, too.

373 jaunte  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:09:26pm

re: #366 Charles

And now they're putting my face on the shoeshine boy and circulating that picture. Gotta love it!

Bizarre. It's hard to say what they actually think that communicates.

374 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:10:21pm

re: #367 Charles

[Link: twitpic.com...]

That pretty childish but expected from that crowd.

375 erraticsphinx  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:10:43pm

re: #371 Dark_Falcon

Check out the other photo shopped pictures on that lady's website. A master at her craft.

A pair of underpants with the Obama logo as a streak mark! The talent.

376 metrolibertarian  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:10:53pm

re: #364 Charles

The wingnut blogosphere is getting all stirred up about my post on the Obama shoeshine picture tonight -- because the woman who forwarded it is apparently registered as a Democrat, and that exonerates the right wing of any responsibility.

Yes, really. That's how they think.

Anyone who's a registered Democrat can't possibly be right wing. Zell Miller is a liberal myth, like global warming, evolution, the religious right, and Fox News being conservative.

/sarc

377 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:12:16pm

re: #366 Charles

Might be worth printing & framing?
It's pretty funny, IMHO.
I hope you think so, too.

378 Girth  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:14:12pm

re: #370 Charles

It's awful to be so insignificant that these morons spend New Year's Day doing things like that.

I like the question, "Is this racist Charles Johnson?"

No, it's fucking stupid. Next question.

379 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:14:29pm

The caption is a hoot:

Is this racist, Charles Johnson?

Well, no. I'm white. So the racist connotation isn't really there, is it?

It's just stupid.

380 Gus  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:16:06pm

re: #379 Charles

The caption is a hoot:

Well, no. I'm white. So the racist connotation isn't really there, is it?

It's just stupid.

This is amazing. Even if in this particular case it was emailed by a "registered Democrat" they're still defending the racist imagery.

381 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:16:52pm

They're awfully touchy about the racism issue, aren't they?

382 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:19:59pm

re: #381 Charles

They're awfully touchy about the racism issue, aren't they?

When the enemy shrieks when you go after them, you know that the shots are hitting home. Keep firing for effect Charles!

383 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 7:22:11pm

re: #377 Floral Giraffe

Scratch that idea.
F'ing stupid.

The flack it the heaviest when you're directly over the target!

Hang in there.

384 Lidane  Fri, Jan 1, 2010 9:14:18pm

re: #380 Gus 802

This is amazing. Even if in this particular case it was emailed by a "registered Democrat" they're still defending the racist imagery.

Because having it e-mailed by a registered Democrat somehow makes it okay.

I can't even begin to wrap my head around the thought process behind it all. It makes less than zero sense. WTF?

385 amrafel  Sun, Jan 3, 2010 5:21:09am

A woman once left her glasses on the table at a restaurant. As she was almost out the door, another customer said, "hey, moron, you left your glasses!" She looked, and there were her glasses. She said, "thanks" in a subdued voice.
If a known antisemitic bigoted homophobe said, "hey, check out GLSEN's website's recommended reading list for 7th graders (or 7th thru 12 graders)," I might check it out just out of curiosity.
Well, I did. And to the folks at MassResistance, I say "thanks" in a subdued voice.


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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
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