Breaking: Massa Under Investigation for Allegedly Groping Male Staffers

Politics • Views: 2,792

Good grief. Is this story ever blowing up in Glenn Beck’s face: Massa under investigation for allegedly groping male staffers.

Former Rep. Eric Massa (D-N.Y.) has been under investigation for allegations that he groped multiple male staffers working in his office, according to three sources familiar with the probe.

The allegations surrounding the former lawmaker date back at least a year, and involve “a pattern of behavior and physical harassment,” according to one source. The new claims of alleged groping contradict statements by Massa, who resigned his office on Monday after it became public that he was the subject of a House ethics committee investigation for possible harassment.

Massa had said that the allegations were limited to his use of “salty language” with his staff.

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405 comments
1 Spider Mensch  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:25:30pm

"groping male staffers"...the wording writes it's own joke...)))

2 Kragar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:26:08pm

re: #1 Spider Mensch

"groping male staffers"...the wording writes it's own joke...)))

Right up there with "salty" language.

3 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:27:15pm

He's the perfect Tea Party candidate. He's a living implosion.

4 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:28:48pm

it's sure blackmail material tho'.

I do wonder what he was thinking in going down swinging, he had to know the real allegations would come out, especially since he's pissing on congress and the president so much.

He's only making it worse for himself as it is, and negating any effect he might have had...

Unless he's a plant to discredit Beck!

5 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:29:18pm

I guess some politicians think they can get away with anything.
Stupid, it always comes out. Even John Edwards, eventually was exposed for the liar that he is.

6 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:29:24pm

This is evidently some sort of operation set up by the GOP to discredit Massa. I wonder how many other operatives the GOP has sent into the Democrat camp to be groped by Congress critters?

7 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:29:49pm

We've been waiting for Beck's rickety career and ideology to collapse. I think this is it.

8 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:29:53pm

Yeah as a rule of thumb if some politico leaves DC so fast that the skid marks smoke, you ought to avoid associating with him until you know why....

9 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:30:53pm

re: #7 Shiplord Kirel

I'm giving you an optimistic upding, but I'm doubtful.

He's already said so much crazy shit that I can't believe anyone bought into.

10 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:32:11pm

re: #5 Floral Giraffe

You're very right, but I'm confused by 'even John Edwards'. Did he have some special protection that Clinton, et al didn't?

11 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:33:28pm

Massa:

"In the incredibly toxic atmosphere that is Washington D.C., with the destruction of our elected leaders having become a blood sport, especially in talk radio and on the internet, there is also no doubt that an Ethics investigation would tear my family and my staff apart. "

Yep. We all pine for the day when we can grope staffers without being tainted by the toxic blood sport that is DC...

12 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:33:33pm

re: #10 windsagio

You're very right, but I'm confused by 'even John Edwards'. Did he have some special protection that Clinton, et al didn't?

I'm only guessing, but maybe his wife with cancer?

13 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:33:40pm

re: #10 windsagio

You're very right, but I'm confused by 'even John Edwards'. Did he have some special protection that Clinton, et al didn't?

His front was way slicker, imo.

14 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:34:31pm
This is the first entry tagged: Groping

'Tis a wonder....

15 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:34:45pm

re: #13 Locker

Man what is it with Southern Politicians and their especial love of getting caught with (or about) their mistresses?

16 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:34:46pm

It depends on what the meaning of 'salty language with his staff' is.
Hmm..come to think about it... what does he mean when he says 'staff'?

"While using epithets and wielding his staff, Massa..." k, I'll stop there...
/

17 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:34:49pm

So, Beck still having him on? What time does he tape?

18 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:34:53pm

re: #13 Locker

His front was way slicker, imo.

politicians have a chance of weathering infidelity if their wife stands by them. if she ditchen them , they are generally sunk

19 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:35:47pm

re: #18 ralphieboy

politicians have a chance of weathering infidelity if their wife stands by them. if she ditchen them , they are generally sunk

They must also wear a blue dress. No joke.

20 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:36:07pm

re: #17 Stanley Sea

So, Beck still having him on? What time does he tape?

Well they just showed a promo on Fox for it.

21 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:36:54pm

Reminds me of the old joke:

Why don't members of Congress use bookmarks?

They would rather use bent-over pages.

22 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:37:15pm

re: #14 wrenchwench

'Tis a wonder...

It will not be the last... unfortunately.

23 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:37:26pm

re: #17 Stanley Sea

So, Beck still having him on? What time does he tape?

Here's what the listing says...

"Congressman Eric Massa in a Beck exclusive! Was he ousted for opposing the health care plan, and what really triggered his ethics probe?"

24 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:38:04pm

re: #21 Mad Al-Jaffee

Speaking of that, the Mayor of Portland (OR) got caught having a relationship with an underaged male Page, and he got away with it. Of course, he wasn't married, and was openly gay, but still.

Apparently the rules are a bit... bendy.

25 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:38:13pm

re: #15 windsagio

That's a spacejesus question.

26 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:38:36pm

re: #10 windsagio

No, he just denied it for over a year, and DANG near got away with it.

27 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:38:54pm

The pure diabolical genius of Massa's defection takes my breath away. Had these charges emerged just a few days, the wingnut-o-sphere would be demanding his arrest and prompt crucifixion as a lib homosexual elitist hypocrite polluting our bodily essences, if not the second coming of Ted Kennedy.

As it is they are defending him as the victim of a typically nefarious Dem-lib plot.
Freepers scoff at Massa groping charges.

28 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:40:19pm

Oops. Set up now happening.

Shep now reporting 'breaking news' about the groping allegations.

29 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:41:08pm

re: #28 Jadespring

Oops. Set up now happening.

Shep now reporting 'breaking news' about the groping allegations.

"It's a trap!" -- Admiral Akbar

30 Lidane  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:41:20pm

re: #27 Shiplord Kirel

ROFL. That's classic.

31 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:41:31pm

re: #27 Shiplord Kirel

The pure diabolical genius of Massa's defection takes my breath away. Had these charges emerged just a few days, the wingnut-o-sphere would be demanding his arrest and prompt crucifixion as a lib homosexual elitist hypocrite polluting our bodily essences, if not the second coming of Ted Kennedy.

As it is they are defending him as the victim of a typically nefarious Dem-lib plot.
Freepers scoff at Massa groping charges.

Actually it is genius... At some point in the very very near future, the right will go back to calling him a leftist...

IN the mean time, the little sheep who follow Beck will need new circus and more bread to avoid being overly confused.

Most likely Beck and Fox will drop him like a hot iron and in two days start acting all innocent... Mass who?

32 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:42:04pm

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Here's what the listing says...

"Congressman Eric Massa in a Beck exclusive! Was he ousted for opposing the health care plan, and what really triggered his ethics probe?"

What an idiot fest all around. Beck for trying to find some Watergate-esqe story, and Massa for going on the show & risking be exposed (in front of his poor family) for his sexual misbehavior.

Today is the day I'd like to be a production assistant at Fox, in the crazy moments before air time.

33 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:42:07pm

re: #27 Shiplord Kirel

Seriously?

Man, what a tap-dancer. That's some chutzpah.

34 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:42:22pm

re: #27 Shiplord Kirel

The pure diabolical genius of Massa's defection takes my breath away. Had these charges emerged just a few days, the wingnut-o-sphere would be demanding his arrest and prompt crucifixion as a lib homosexual elitist hypocrite polluting our bodily essences, if not the second coming of Ted Kennedy.

As it is they are defending him as the victim of a typically nefarious Dem-lib plot.
Freepers scoff at Massa groping charges.

Wow! That shows how much they hate Barack Obama. Normally, they'd be screaming and pointing fingers at the left. But if they have to choose between a staff-groping wacked out Democrat and a black President, the choice is easy.

35 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:42:41pm

Unless I'm mistaken (highly unlikely/) the WaPo story should read "was under investigation". If he resigned, which he did, the congressional ethics investigation is over.

36 avanti  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:42:51pm

re: #27 Shiplord Kirel

The pure diabolical genius of Massa's defection takes my breath away. Had these charges emerged just a few days, the wingnut-o-sphere would be demanding his arrest and prompt crucifixion as a lib homosexual elitist hypocrite polluting our bodily essences, if not the second coming of Ted Kennedy.

As it is they are defending him as the victim of a typically nefarious Dem-lib plot.
Freepers scoff at Massa groping charges.

The only post I agree with from that link is this one:

"I bet he doesn’t show or walks off in a spat after a few minutes. Glenn said they prepared another show if he’s a no-show!"

37 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:43:27pm

re: #35 RogueOne

Unless I'm mistaken (highly unlikely/) the WaPo story should read "was under investigation". If he resigned, which he did, the congressional ethics investigation is over.

Which, BTW, is why he resigned.

38 Batman  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:44:09pm

Expect MSNBC to put an 'R' next to his name.

/or something

39 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:44:41pm

re: #34 Charles

Wow! That shows how much they hate Barack Obama. Normally, they'd be screaming and pointing fingers at the left. But if they have to choose between a staff-groping wacked out Democrat and a black President, the choice is easy.

Well after all in the GOP these days white makes right.

40 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:45:03pm

Ha ha...okay I'm liking Shep. He's funny.

He finishes reporting the details... "Of course he'll be on Glen Beck later today...so maybe Glen Beck will ask him about that"

41 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:45:23pm

re: #39 LudwigVanQuixote

Well after all in the GOP these days white makes right.

Don't let Michael Steele know that.

42 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:45:33pm

Massa... blowing... in Glenn Beck's face.

(Creative use of ellipses strikes again) /

43 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:46:10pm

Beck has no choice but to go nuclear on Massa, if he even shows up.

44 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:46:24pm

re: #41 Guanxi88

You know how it is, political expediency first, racism second.

45 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:46:43pm

re: #43 Charles

which might be a train-wreck entertaining show.

46 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:47:03pm

re: #35 RogueOne

Unless I'm mistaken (highly unlikely/) the WaPo story should read "was under investigation". If he resigned, which he did, the congressional ethics investigation is over.

I read that that might not be the case, since it involves congressional staffers. Same as Foley.

47 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:47:08pm

re: #43 Charles

Beck has no choice but to go nuclear on Massa, if he even shows up.

He'll try to pretend he was Massa Baiting all along...

/wait... did I just say that?

48 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:47:14pm

re: #44 windsagio

You know how it is, political expediency first, racism second.

Ahh, clever rogues they are - they conceal the very racism that is their draw by cunningly putting a black man at the head of the party.

49 abbyadams  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:47:28pm

Like I said, it's a conservative district. I'd bet a dollar for a doughnut that Pelosi wasn't counting on his vote for healthcare, nor expects another D to win that seat.

50 recusancy  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:47:31pm

re: #44 windsagio

You know how it is, political expediency first, racism second.

It did go to the 8th vote to nudge Steele past the guy who belonged to a whites only country club.

51 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:47:34pm

re: #35 RogueOne

Unless I'm mistaken (highly unlikely/) the WaPo story should read "was under investigation". If he resigned, which he did, the congressional ethics investigation is over.

Well it did come from Fox but the guy being interviewed said that because the allegations involved staff people it would likely not stop just because he resigned which is what normally would happen.

52 avanti  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:47:36pm

re: #43 Charles

Beck has no choice but to go nuclear on Massa, if he even shows up.

And that saves the nation as Beck hinted, how ?

53 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:48:07pm

re: #27 Shiplord Kirel

Well, he used to be a republican, soooo... No longer a RINO?
/idunno

54 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:48:11pm

re: #48 Guanxi88

Ahh, clever rogues they are - they conceal the very racism that is their draw by cunningly putting a black man at the head of the party.

That sounds pretty accurate.

55 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:48:14pm

re: #39 LudwigVanQuixote

Well after all in the GOP these days white makes right.

Painting with the broad brushes today I see.

These are the numbers, here. These are the lines, here. Match the numbers with the color and stay in the lines. I know it can be tricky but there are still some 'normal', all are accepted regardless of color, (R)'s to be found. Just sayin.

56 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:48:19pm

re: #48 Guanxi88

"some of my best friends are black!"

or rather

"Look we have a black person in our party!"

57 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:48:27pm

re: #50 recusancy

It did go to the 8th vote to nudge Steele past the guy who belonged to a whites only country club.

Was that the other nominee's chief qualification?

58 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:48:27pm

Groping male staffers, going on Glenn Beck, accusing the Obama administration of a conspiracy to drive him out of office. Is Massa sure he's not a Republican?

59 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:48:34pm

Sure 'nuff, the ghost of Ted Kennedy has made an appearance on the freeper string:

These actions make him sound like the perfect Dem. Kennedy’s Patrick and Ted did far worse. Why kick him out now? Answer: Healthcare.

60 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:49:09pm

Obfuscation galore:

"Last week, he, on Wednesday, was having a recurrence of cancer. On Thursday, he was guilty of using salty language. On Friday, we learned he's before the ethics committee to be investigated on charges of sexual harassment," Gibbs said. "So, look, I think, clearly, his actions appear to be in the appropriate venue in the ethics committees to look at, but we're focused not on crazy allegations but instead on making this system work for the American people rather than work for insurance companies."

Uh huh.

61 teleskiguy  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:49:10pm

This whole Massa thing is too weird! It is encouraging to see the kookosphere self-immolating. Now we can discredit the whack-jobs and get some sanity back into conservative American politics.

62 That's Glenn Beck to you  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:49:59pm

This is not blowing up in my face.

In fact - everything is fitting into place.

let me draw it out for you:

Pelosi -------> Massa --------> Sex scandal

Take the first letter of each : PMS. And it is PMS that starts with Pelosi. Isn't this an obvious set up?

But there is more:

Staffers ------->Erections---------->Interns---------->Universal condemnation

Who is behind that? SEIU!

So Massa is being set up by Pelosi and the SEIU!

All of this is falling neatly into place.

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:50:03pm

re: #11 Aceofwhat?

Massa:

"In the incredibly toxic atmosphere that is Washington D.C., with the destruction of our elected leaders having become a blood sport, especially in talk radio and on the internet, there is also no doubt that an Ethics investigation would tear my family and my staff apart. "

Yep. We all pine for the day when we can grope staffers without being tainted by the toxic blood sport that is DC...

Those days were not so long ago--as long as the staffers were girls.

64 recusancy  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:50:17pm

re: #57 Guanxi88

Was that the other nominee's chief qualification?

Seemingly.

65 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:50:22pm

If nothing else, Eric Massa is a reminder that neither party has a monopoly on teh crazee.

66 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:50:44pm

The Dems were trying to get in on the Tea Party popularity but something got lost in translation when they ended up throwing the tea bagger over board. /

67 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:52:00pm

re: #34 Charles

Wow! That shows how much they hate Barack Obama. Normally, they'd be screaming and pointing fingers at the left. But if they have to choose between a staff-groping wacked out Democrat and a black President, the choice is easy.

The only thing that would change their minds is if Massa pulled a reverse on Beck, defended the President, admitted his groping/verbal slips/etc., and then walked off the set in the first two minutes, leaving Beck with no script and no guest. THEN he'd be pilloried by the nutters. As of now, they're getting the value they can out of him before attacking him at their leisure.

68 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:52:04pm

re: #46 Stanley Sea

I read that that might not be the case, since it involves congressional staffers. Same as Foley.

The foley investigation involved under-aged staffers which is a serious criminal charge. I haven't read anything about anything similar with Massa. If it's just an in-house sexual harassment charge then it all goes away. If he were smart, and he obviously isn't, he would have kept his mouth shut and gone away quietly. He had to know all of these accusations were going to come out in the open if he ran around shooting his mouth off about the White House.

69 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:52:24pm

re: #58 darthstar

Groping male staffers, going on Glenn Beck, accusing the Obama administration of a conspiracy to drive him out of office. Is Massa sure he's not a Republican?


Ouch. There is that extramarital secret life stuff - perhaps he's the only truly bipartisan legislator in Washington DC?

70 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:52:26pm

Dang, I am just pulling out the popcorn on this one, after I go buy it that is.... Later all.

71 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:52:39pm

re: #50 recusancy

It did go to the 8th vote to nudge Steele past the guy who belonged to a whites only country club.

Who was the runner up?

72 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:52:51pm

Oh Beltway, how deep is thy gutter?
How wide thy cesspool?

73 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:53:00pm

re: #64 recusancy

Seemingly.

Then it's good that the plan to save this nation's health care system won't require racist votes.

74 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:53:46pm
Junior O'Daniel: We could hire our own midget, even shorter than his.

Pappy O'Daniel: Wouldn't we look like a bunch of Johnny-come-latelies, bragging on our own midget, doesn't matter how stumpy.

75 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:53:54pm

re: #68 RogueOne

...If he were smart...

There isn't a barn big enough to hold that particular "if".

76 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:54:05pm

re: #73 Guanxi88

sometimes its better to look the truth in the eye, rather than whistling past the graveyard (I love mixed metaphors!)

77 recusancy  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:54:14pm

re: #71 wrenchwench

Who was the runner up?

Katon Dawson

78 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:54:58pm

re: #72 Spare O'Lake

Well, again, upthread a posted a worse scandal that the guy got away with in the city where I live.

79 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:55:04pm

Damn...I've got a big meeting in five minutes...this Massa thing is entertaining as all get out...I may have to stream Fox on Sirius this afternoon when my meeting ends. Isn't Beck on at 2pm PST?

80 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:55:36pm

re: #76 windsagio

sometimes its better to look the truth in the eye, rather than whistling past the graveyard (I love mixed metaphors!)

So to sum up:

The racist GOP, which draws and attracts bigots, can do no other than to put a black man at the head to maintain a transparent fig-leaf (to mix metaphors) for its racism to those whose votes and opinions mean nothing to them?

Hell, if that's really their plan, no wonder they lost the WH.

81 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:56:00pm

re: #77 recusancy

Dawson's involvement in politics traces back to the trauma of being forced to attend integrated schools

Jesus!

82 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:56:15pm

re: #54 Charles

That sounds pretty accurate.

That sounds pretty broad-brush.

83 Girth  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:56:52pm

Is the Beck show rerun overnight on FNC? I don't think I'm gonna make it to a TV but I'd DVR a rerun tonight if there is one.

84 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:56:57pm

re: #80 Guanxi88

So to sum up:

The racist GOP, which draws and attracts bigots, can do no other than to put a black man at the head to maintain a transparent fig-leaf (to mix metaphors) for its racism to those whose votes and opinions mean nothing to them?

Hell, if that's really their plan, no wonder they lost the WH.


Didn't you know all Republicans are racist? That's why they like Massa- it reminds them of keeping the folks down on the plantation. ////

85 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:57:03pm

re: #77 recusancy

Katon Dawson

Wow, politicized at 15 by being bused. That's a contrast with the winner.

86 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:57:04pm

re: #45 windsagio

which might be a train-wreck entertaining show.

That explains the train-track drawing on Beck's chalkboard. He was practicing...

87 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:57:09pm

re: #76 windsagio

sometimes its better to look the truth in the eye, rather than whistling past the graveyard (I love mixed metaphors!)

Sometimes you just have to take the horse by the tail and face the situation.

88 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:58:07pm

re: #80 Guanxi88

Well you're overstating it some. There is right now an inherent racism in the GOP (or at least large segments of it).

That aside, they're VERY into political expediency, and it was a wise political move to appoint a black man to the head of their committee, to counteract the hullabaloo over the Dems getting the first black president elected.

Steele hasn't exactly had good luck actually using his position, tending to get slapped down most times he tries to publicly.

89 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:58:17pm

re: #87 Shiplord Kirel

Sometimes you just have to take the horse by the tail and face the situation.

That's easy for you to say - wait till the shoe's on the other cheek.

90 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:58:19pm

re: #83 Girth

Is the Beck show rerun overnight on FNC? I don't think I'm gonna make it to a TV but I'd DVR a rerun tonight if there is one.

I think so. I tape Red Eye every night/early morning, and there's usually a couple of minutes of Beck on before Red Eye starts.

91 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:58:28pm
If nothing else, Eric Massa is a reminder that neither party has a monopoly on teh crazee.

No matter how much they tap dance around the issue.

92 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:58:38pm

re: #87 Shiplord Kirel

We'll never get that Pandora's can of worms back into the bottle!

93 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:58:45pm

re: #87 Shiplord Kirel

You're really putting the apple cart before the horse of a different color with that one.

94 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:59:29pm

Nice to see that Beck now has to lie in the hole that he dug, should make for even more interesting meltdowns on certain not-to-be-named sites than have already happened.

I hope someone else has popcorn ready, I only have four bags left...

95 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:59:37pm

re: #87 Shiplord Kirel

A metaphor in action.

96 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:59:49pm

re: #91 lawhawk

In fairness, nobody's saying that Massa isn't a freakin' lunatic. Or a Democrat.

97 recusancy  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:00:38pm

re: #91 lawhawk

No matter how much they tap dance around the issue.

Who's tap dancing? Dems have been pretty vocal in their disdain for him.

98 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:00:54pm

re: #88 windsagio

Well you're overstating it some. There is right now an inherent racism in the GOP (or at least large segments of it).

That aside, they're VERY into political expediency, and it was a wise political move to appoint a black man to the head of their committee, to counteract the hullabaloo over the Dems getting the first black president elected.

Steele hasn't exactly had good luck actually using his position, tending to get slapped down most times he tries to publicly.


I marvel at your ability to mind read the monolithic thought process of an entire political party. /

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:01:06pm

re: #88 windsagio

Well you're overstating it some. There is right now an inherent racism in the GOP (or at least large segments of it).

I think the issue is not necessarily racism by the classic definition, but a sense that the GOP has given up on courting black voters, and thereby given up on any real interest in issues largely impacting the black community(s).

And no, it's not because they're color-blind.

100 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:01:16pm

I'm a Republican, are you calling me racist Ludwig? If so you and I are going to go some rounds.

101 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:01:22pm

re: #82 Guanxi88

That sounds pretty broad-brush.

You said it, not me.

102 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:01:35pm

re: #74 Slumbering Behemoth

Gotta get us some of that re-form.

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:01:49pm

re: #94 ausador

Nice to see that Beck now has to lie in the hole that he dug, should make for even more interesting meltdowns on certain not-to-be-named sites than have already happened.

I hope someone else has popcorn ready, I only have four bags left...

Oh, I'm sure he can make something of this for the purposes of the show.

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:02:28pm

re: #96 windsagio

In fairness, nobody's saying that Massa isn't a freakin' lunatic. Or a Democrat.

I think the party was hoping to get rid of him quietly.

Time was, they would have been able to.

105 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:02:33pm

re: #101 Charles

You said it, not me.

Trying to flesh out a preposterous notion by stating it in its most direct form.

106 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:03:57pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the issue is not necessarily racism by the classic definition, but a sense that the GOP has given up on courting black voters, and thereby given up on any real interest in issues largely impacting the black community(s).

And no, it's not because they're color-blind.

And black is not the only shade they seem to have given up on. Immigration reform, anyone?

107 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:04:12pm

re: #98 DaddyG

You'd think my references to 'segments' (which were in the quote!) would imply I don't think of them monolithically.

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

I kind of disagree (obviously :p)

I think its just finally time to deal with the fallout of them absorbing the Dixiecrats lo' 40 years ago, and clean up their house.

Altho' I do agree that them letting it SHOW has to do with them giving up on the black vote, just like how their support for very edgy legislation in the SW shows they're giving up on the Hispanic vote.

108 recusancy  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:04:13pm

I hear there's about 200 million protesters (by FOX standards) protesting FOR healthcare reform today.

109 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:04:17pm

re: #78 windsagio

Well, again, upthread a posted a worse scandal that the guy got away with in the city where I live.

The breathtaking combination of media sensation, sexual titillation and furious bipartisan spinarama is teh ugly. The relatively minor nature of the offending conduct makes the entire sordid display that much more impressive.

110 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:04:54pm

re: #106 wrenchwench

re: #107 windsagio

touched you first, you owe me a coke!

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:05:37pm

re: #106 wrenchwench

And black is not the only shade they seem to have given up on. Immigration reform, anyone?

Which is DUMB. Gaining much of the black vote would be an uphill row to hoe, but a healthy chunk of the Latino vote is available to the GOP if they go after it cleverly.

Bush, I think, understood that, by virtue of his region and background. Somehow, no one was listening, and he never seemed to find a good platform to talk about it.

112 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:05:55pm

re: #109 Spare O'Lake

My point is, its wrong to go 'oh this is just a beltway problem, I hate those Washington Insiders.'

As someone-or-other famous said, 'power corrupts'.

113 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:06:05pm

re: #74 Slumbering Behemoth

Junior O'Daniel: We could hire our own midget, even shorter than his.

Pappy O'Daniel: Wouldn't we look like a bunch of Johnny-come-latelies, bragging on our own midget, doesn't matter how stumpy

...we should get us somma that ree-form...

114 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:06:58pm

I don't have a problem with anyone calling most of the freepers, or the wingnut fringers, or even some of the leaders and segments of the party Racist, it's pretty obvious that the wingnutosphere is sucking RSM's cock for instance.

But it's really obnoxious and offensive to diss the whole party as racist -- indeed it demonstrates a deep seated hatred for a group and it is the very behaviour of stereotyping people and groups that it's supposedly against.

115 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:07:12pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

an uphill row to hoe

Metaphor murder is all over the place here today. I am loving this thread.

116 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:07:15pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

Which is DUMB. Gaining much of the black vote would be an uphill row to hoe, but a healthy chunk of the Latino vote is available to the GOP if they go after it cleverly.

Bush, I think, understood that, by virtue of his region and background. Somehow, no one was listening, and he never seemed to find a good platform to talk about it.

The attack of 9-11-01 had a lot to do with that. A meeting scheduled with then-President Fox never happened.

117 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:08:00pm

re: #110 windsagio

re: #107 windsagio

touched you first, you owe me a coke!

Do I pour it into my modem?

118 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:08:10pm

re: #116 wrenchwench

I kinda think it was a losing fight in the region, and Bush (or his advisors) knew it.

Strong nativist influence in the American SW.

119 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:08:41pm

re: #117 wrenchwench

I would advise against that, you have my address, just mail it ;)

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:08:54pm

re: #116 wrenchwench

The attack of 9-11-01 had a lot to do with that. A meeting scheduled with then-President Fox never happened.

A lot of Bush's potential agenda did get, you'll excuse the term, hijacked by the attacks.

Sigh.

121 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:08:59pm

re: #102 Guanxi88

Gotta get us some of that re-form.

gmta...

122 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:09:09pm

Without a serious study of patterns of belief, race and political affiliation the conjecture about which party is more or less racist is utter bull droppings.

The need for conservatives to disavow racist attitudes is real.

The need for liberals to stop using good intentions as an excuse for failing minorities is also real.

No one party has cornered the market on racists or kooks.

It was my impression that anti-idolitarianism was in part opposed to sweeping generalizations and stereotypes.

123 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:09:12pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

Which is DUMB. Gaining much of the black vote would be an uphill row to hoe, but a healthy chunk of the Latino vote is available to the GOP if they go after it cleverly.

Strongest pull here in the Lone Star State for Tejanos et al is social conservatism. Don't know if the outreach to that group of voters would generate enough goodwill among the right-thinking classes to make up for a hard-right tilt on social policy.

124 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:09:17pm

re: #80 Guanxi88

So to sum up:

The racist GOP, which draws and attracts bigots, can do no other than to put a black man at the head to maintain a transparent fig-leaf (to mix metaphors) for its racism to those whose votes and opinions mean nothing to them?

Hell, if that's really their plan, no wonder they lost the WH.

Timeline error, the GOP didn't put Steele in the figurehead position until after it had lost the election. Steele represents an organization's desperate flailing attempt at advertising racial diversity without actually representing or offering any real meaningful diversity. The term you're looking for is token.

125 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:09:49pm

Headed home. Cya all later.

126 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:10:03pm

re: #117 wrenchwench

Do I pour it into my modem?

Wouldn't that be a bit like cutting off your nose to spite a gift horse?

127 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:10:22pm

re: #122 DaddyG


It was my impression that anti-idolitarianism was in part opposed to sweeping generalizations and stereotypes.

Depends on whose ox is getting gored, now doesn't?

128 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:10:34pm

re: #126 Slumbering Behemoth

Wouldn't that be a bit like cutting off your nose to spite a gift horse?

We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

129 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:10:40pm

re: #114 Thanos

I don't think that a party as large as the GOP could be called racist. However, there is far, far, far too much tolerance for racist attitudes in the GOP amongst elected officials. In addition, the 'birther' issue is also one I feel is inextricably tied to race.

130 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:11:32pm

re: #124 goddamnedfrank

Timeline error, the GOP didn't put Steele in the figurehead position until after it had lost the election. Steele represents an organization's desperate flailing attempt at advertising racial diversity without actually representing or offering any real meaningful diversity. The term you're looking for is token.

Please pass that vicious insult along to Chairman Steele - he;ll be grateful to know you are so solicitous of his well-being.

131 abbyadams  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:11:44pm

re: #114 Thanos

Agreed. As I said yesterday, I know enough Ds that wouldn't vote for the (insert n word.) It would be interesting to see what would happen to the Ds if Bobby Jindal became POTUS.

The thing is, you hear less about D party people passing around emails that invoke stereotypes about Jindal's heritage.

I would be nice to see and hear more prominent Rs take this on and say that it is unwelcome. Instead we hear Rush and Beck, etc. I wish more people would denounce them.

132 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:11:50pm

re: #114 Thanos

I don't have a problem with anyone calling most of the freepers, or the wingnut fringers, or even some of the leaders and segments of the party Racist, it's pretty obvious that the wingnutosphere is sucking RSM's cock for instance.

But it's really obnoxious and offensive to diss the whole party as racist -- indeed it demonstrates a deep seated hatred for a group and it is the very behaviour of stereotyping people and groups that it's supposedly against.

Absolutely agree with you. The whole Republican Party is not racist.

However, saying that they have a black man as head of the RNC doesn't excuse the significant pockets of racism that do exist; that's my only point in this particular discussion.

I get really weary of this tactic. It's used over and over. The event James O'Keefe attended can't be a white nationalist event because they also had a black speaker. The Pentagon shooter can't be a right wing libertarian because he was registered Democrat. Rush Limbaugh can't possibly be race-baiting because his producer is black. Etc. Etc.

133 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:12:39pm

re: #115 Slumbering Behemoth

Metaphor murder is all over the place here today. I am loving this thread.

This political tactic is called the grope-a-dope.

134 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:13:11pm

re: #129 Obdicut

I don't think that a party as large as the GOP could be called racist. However, there is far, far, far too much tolerance for racist attitudes in the GOP amongst elected officials. In addition, the 'birther' issue is also one I feel is inextricably tied to race.


There is a crying need for a house cleaning. That is true. I just chafe at the sweeping statements based on conjecture.

135 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:13:21pm

re: #132 Charles

I can't be a Prog/Socialist/Liberal/SEIU Thug because some of my best friends are Conservatives! Ok so they aren't but still...

136 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:13:46pm

re: #128 wrenchwench

We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

We will, as sure as a bear shits in the Vatican.

137 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:13:53pm

"Politics is the entertainment branch of industry." -- F. Zappa

138 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:13:54pm

re: #129 Obdicut

There's a general problem with people misrepresenting 'there are strong racist influences in the GOP' as 'every Republican is racist.' (Charles funny zinger upthread aside of course)

The former is demonstrably true, the latter is absurd.

139 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:14:18pm

re: #135 Locker

I can't be a Prog/Socialist/Liberal/SEIU Thug because some of my best friends are Conservatives! Ok so they aren't but still...

You can't be any of those things because you're here all the time. There'd be no time for you to engage in any of the mayhem required by the others.

140 recusancy  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:14:23pm

re: #135 Locker

I can't be a Prog/Socialist/Liberal/SEIU Thug because some of my best friends are Conservatives! Ok so they aren't but still...

Beck says you have a disease and need to be eradicated.

141 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:14:24pm

re: #128 wrenchwench

We'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

You never count your chickens while you're sitting at the table.

142 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:14:49pm

re: #124 goddamnedfrank

Timeline error, the GOP didn't put Steele in the figurehead position until after it had lost the election. Steele represents an organization's desperate flailing attempt at advertising racial diversity without actually representing or offering any real meaningful diversity. The term you're looking for is token.

Tell him that to his face.

And wasn't Mel Martinez in the spot before him?

I'm not denying the GOP has a problem. Insulting an african-american to make a point about a problem between the GOP and african-americans is an interesting way to go about it.

143 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:15:03pm

re: #136 Slumbering Behemoth

We will, as sure as a bear shits in the Vatican.

I thought the bear wears a funny hat.

144 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:15:05pm

re: #138 windsagio

and to put it further, I think they're doing it because they don't particularly want to deal with the dirty laundry. I empathize with that, but it doesn't make it right :P

145 abbyadams  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:15:21pm

re: #136 Slumbering Behemoth

Can I get a picture of that? Slumbering Behenoth, FTW.

146 jaunte  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:15:42pm

re: #141 Spare O'Lake

So save your pennies, because a penny saved is a penny for your thought that counts your chickens before you're sitting at the table, hatching.

147 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:16:08pm

re: #141 Spare O'Lake

You never count your chickens while you're sitting at the table.

Sir/Madame, I believe the proper use of the metaphor is "Don't count your chickens until the other shoe drops".

Just sayin'

148 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:16:10pm

re: #146 jaunte

So save your pennies, because a penny saved is a penny for your thought that counts your chickens before you're sitting at the table, hatching.

Liar! A penny saved is a penny depreciated.

149 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:16:57pm

re: #148 Guanxi88

I thought it was

a penny saved falls out of your pocket and nobody bothers to pick it up.
150 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:17:00pm

re: #132 Charles

Absolutely agree with you. The whole Republican Party is not racist.

However, saying that they have a black man as head of the RNC doesn't excuse the significant pockets of racism that do exist; that's my only point in this particular discussion.

I get really weary of this tactic. It's used over and over. The event James O'Keefe attended can't be a white nationalist event because they also had a black speaker. The Pentagon shooter can't be a right wing libertarian because he was registered Democrat. Rush Limbaugh can't possibly be race-baiting because his producer is black. Etc. Etc.

I agree with you, and Obicut -- but ludwig's hyperbolic snark got under my skin.

151 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:17:08pm

re: #131 abbyadams

Agreed. As I said yesterday, I know enough Ds that wouldn't vote for the (insert n word.) It would be interesting to see what would happen to the Ds if Bobby Jindal became POTUS.

The thing is, you hear less about D party people passing around emails that invoke stereotypes about Jindal's heritage.

I would be nice to see and hear more prominent Rs take this on and say that it is unwelcome. Instead we hear Rush and Beck, etc. I wish more people would denounce them.

Ds are more likely to pass around emails denouncing his "silly religious beliefs". It is more the style of the left.

Having said that it would be nice to see prominent Rs take on the nastiness coming out of their/our party. I still hold out hope that closer to the election the grownups will come out to play and relegate the loudest of the children to the margins. Parties tend to radicalize for a time after a beating in the polls as the members jockey for leadership positions.

152 Girth  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:17:08pm

re: #143 Mad Al-Jaffee

I thought the bear wears a funny hat.

I thought the pope shits in the woods.

153 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:17:20pm

re: #136 Slumbering Behemoth


As it says on Lady Liberty, "Give me your poor, your meek, your hungry hungry hippos".

154 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:17:23pm

re: #147 Slumbering Behemoth

Sir/Madame, I believe the proper use of the metaphor is "Don't count your chickens until the other shoe drops".

Just sayin'

No. It is 'don't count your chickens before the cows come home. '

155 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:17:35pm

re: #149 windsagio

I thought it was

That saying may be true, but not in my areas of operation. By gadfrey! Currency is mine as soon as it hits the floor.

156 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:17:38pm

re: #130 Guanxi88

Please pass that vicious insult along to Chairman Steele - he;ll be grateful to know you are so solicitous of his well-being.

Your reading comprehension needs work. Calling a clear and obvious token a token is neither a vicious insult nor does is it touch on his health or "well being" at all.

157 abbyadams  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:17:55pm

re: #148 Guanxi88

Pshaw, everyone knows it's a penny for your two cents.

158 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:18:56pm

re: #145 abbyadams

Can I get a picture of that? Slumbering Behenoth, FTW.

No flash photography in the Sistine Chapel, remember. Although it does seem that the exclusion should be extended to pooping bears as well...

159 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:18:57pm

Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man pretty damn boring.

160 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:19:06pm

re: #142 Aceofwhat?

Tell him that to his face.

And wasn't Mel Martinez in the spot before him?

I'm not denying the GOP has a problem. Insulting an african-american to make a point about a problem between the GOP and african-americans is an interesting way to go about it.

Agreed. And indeed - tell him to his face that he is a token. I'd be as careful with the word "token" as with the "watermelon" from yesterday's discussion. More so, really, because it actually is, y'know, highly insulting.

161 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:19:08pm

re: #156 goddamnedfrank

Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle late for dinner.

162 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:19:17pm

re: #155 Guanxi88

a penny saved will eventually end up in Guanxi88's pocket?

163 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:19:24pm

re: #156 goddamnedfrank

Your reading comprehension needs work. Calling a clear and obvious token a token is neither a vicious insult nor does is it touch on his health or "well being" at all.

Who said health? BHO's taking care of that.

Well-being encompasses the man's dignity, as well, but, I suppose, if you think he holds his position on the basis of tokenism, you've concluded he has no dignity whatsoever.

Call a black partner at a mostly white firm a token, and see what it gets you.

164 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:19:31pm

re: #159 Mad Al-Jaffee

Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man pretty damn boring.

Not if you like it in the morning.

165 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:20:03pm

re: #156 goddamnedfrank
Way to go frank. Insult the other posters - that will really win you points in the debate.

166 abbyadams  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:20:04pm

And, I'm offski.

Regarding your mixed metaphors:

I bow to your superior punning abilities,

And I think that some of you have great futures ahead of you as NFL broadcasters.

167 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:20:06pm

Meanwhile Frum's tweeting articles linked to WZ defending Geert.. arggg. It's a repeat of the Shrieking harpie's take... I need a drink and it's only three PM here....

168 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:20:07pm

re: #161 Slumbering Behemoth

Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle late for dinner.

Or throwing out the bath water with the baby.

169 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:20:56pm

re: #163 Guanxi88

Sometimes a token's just a token :p

Again, look at some of the times he's tried to speak up and use his 'influence' as Chair.

Didn't work out so well.


Faux-outrage can only go so far.

170 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:21:09pm

re: #162 windsagio

Laws of economics and the circulation of currency.

Of course, you could all save a lot of trouble by just dropping off your cash - paper currency only, please, coins get heavy - to me and avoid having to circulate it.

171 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:21:20pm

re: #168 Mad Al-Jaffee

Or throwing out the bath water with the baby.

that'll just get you out of the fire and into the kettle.

172 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:21:26pm

re: #158 Aceofwhat?

No flash photography in the Sistine Chapel, remember. Although it does seem that the exclusion should be extended to pooping bears as well...

I bet you could get an NEA grant for that.

(note the lack of / tags)

173 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:21:35pm

re: #150 Thanos

I agree with you, and Obicut -- but ludwig's hyperbolic snark got under my skin.

Bad news - ludwig does not intend it as hyperbole.

174 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:21:55pm

My local Republicans lost me because they are tea partiers. They invited Richard Mack to speak at a fundraiser for their candidate for the Republican nomination for a state legislator seat. Mack's an Oathkeeper, among other things.

The state party organization has refused to speak ill of a Paulian running for nomination to be the Republican candidate for Congress.

But I still hope there are some sensible, responsible Republican organizations out there.

175 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:22:08pm

re: #129 Obdicut

I don't think that a party as large as the GOP could be called racist. However, there is far, far, far too much tolerance for racist attitudes in the GOP amongst elected officials. In addition, the 'birther' issue is also one I feel is inextricably tied to race.

It's def. not the GOP I grew up in anymore... I think letting the Dixiecrats in for whatever reason was one big ass mistake.

176 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:23:07pm

re: #165 DaddyG

The lesson here is:

"Talking about racism in the GOP really pisses Republicans off"

I'm surprised nobody's said that more Republicans than Democrats voted for the civil rights act yet, or that (gasp) Lincoln was a Republican!

177 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:23:18pm

re: #157 abbyadams

Pshaw, everyone knows it's a penny for your two cents.

This thread is turned into a double edged Hammer

178 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:23:59pm

re: #175 Thanos

Political expediency. And in that realm it certainly worked.

179 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:24:44pm

I'll say this, though, about this place - even as we trade barbs and hurl insults back and forth, we're mixing metaphors and updinging the very folk we're arguing most with. Gotta love a place where you can do that.

180 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:25:02pm

re: #175 Thanos

The Southern Strategy has its obvious conclusion, I think, as does all of the devil's deals that the GOP has made, with the religious right, the nativists, the isolationists. The state of science in the GOP alone makes it completely appalling to me. And by 'in the GOP', I'm referring to statements and actions taken by elected members of the GOP and officials of the GOP, not constituents.

181 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:25:13pm

re: #179 Guanxi88

Hah, when it works, its what makes LGF great.

Occasionally things get out of hand tho :D

182 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:25:18pm

re: #156 goddamnedfrank

Your reading comprehension needs work. Calling a clear and obvious token a token is neither a vicious insult nor does is it touch on his health or "well being" at all.

You just dealt the race card off the bottom of the deck.

183 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:25:25pm

re: #169 windsagio

He's just trying to gain a foothold in the public eye!

184 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:25:30pm

re: #41 Guanxi88

Don't let Michael Steele know that.

I'm sure he does know that.

185 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:25:50pm

re: #180 Obdicut

The Southern Strategy has its obvious conclusion, I think, as does all of the devil's deals that the GOP has made, with the religious right, the nativists, the isolationists. The state of science in the GOP alone makes it completely appalling to me. And by 'in the GOP', I'm referring to statements and actions taken by elected members of the GOP and officials of the GOP, not constituents.

Requoted, bolded, and italicized for freakin' emphasis!

186 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:25:52pm

re: #173 cliffster

Bad news - ludwig does not intend it as hyperbole.

Worse news, it's true.

187 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:25:54pm

re: #172 DaddyG

I bet you could get an NEA grant for that.

(note the lack of / tags)

And now, apologies for the length of the post, a conversation between the Pope and Michelangelo, as told by the venerable historians Eric Idle and John Cleese:
----
Pope: Evening, Michelangelo. I want to have a word with you about this painting of yours, "The Last Supper."

Michelangelo: Oh, yeah?

Pope: I'm not happy about it.

Michelangelo: Oh, dear. It took me hours.

Pope: Not happy at all.

Michelangelo: Is it the jello you don't like?

Pope: No.

Michelangelo: Ah, no, I know, they do have a bit of colour, don't they? Oh, I know, you don't like the kangaroo?

Pope: What kangaroo?

Michelangelo: No problem, I'll paint him out.

Pope: I never saw a kangaroo!

Michelangelo: Uuh...he's right in the back. I'll paint him out! No sweat, I'll make him into a disciple.

Pope: Aah.

Michelangelo: All right?

Pope: That's the problem.

Michelangelo: What is?

Pope: The disciples.

Michelangelo: Are they too Jewish? I made Judas the most Jewish.

Pope: No, it's just that there are twenty-eight of them.

Michelangelo: Oh, well, another one will never matter, I'll make the kangaroo into another one.

Pope: No, that's not the point.

Michelangelo: All right. Well, I'll lose the kangaroo. Be honest, I wasn't perfectly happy with it.

Pope: That's not the point. There are twenty-eight disciples!

Michelangelo: Too many?

Pope: Well, of course it's too many!

Michelangelo: Yeah, I know that, but I wanted to give the impression of a real last supper. You know, not just any old last supper. Not like a last meal or a final snack. But you know, I wanted to give the impression of a real mother of a blow-out, you know?

Pope: There were only twelve disciples at the last supper.

Michelangelo: Well, maybe some of the others ones came along afterw...

Pope: There were only twelve altogether.

Michelangelo: Well, maybe some of their friends came by, you know?

Pope: Look! There were just twelve disciples and our Lord at the last supper. The Bible clearly says so.

Michelangelo: No friends?

Pope: No friends.

Michelangelo: Waiters?

Pope: No.

Michelangelo: Cabaret?

Pope: No!

Michelangelo: You see, I like them, they help to flesh out the scene, I could lose a few, you know I could...

Pope: Look! There were only twelve disciples at...

Michelangelo: I've got it! I've got it! We'll call it "The Last But One Supper"!

Pope: What?

Michelangelo: Well there must have been one, if there was a last supper there must have been a one before that, so this, is the "Penultimate Supper"! The Bible doesn't say how many people were there now, does it?

Pope: No, but...

Michelangelo: Well there you are, then!

Pope: Look! The last supper is a significant event in the life of our Lord, the penultimate supper was not! Even if they had a conjurer and a mariachi band. Now, a last supper I commissioned from you, and a last supper I want! With twelve disciples and one Christ!

Michelangelo: One?!

Pope: Yes one! Now will you please tell me what in God's name possessed you to paint this with three Christs in it?

Michelangelo: It works, mate!

Pope: Works?

Michelangelo: Yeah! It looks great! The fat one balances the two skinny ones.

188 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:26:30pm

re: #181 windsagio

Hah, when it works, its what makes LGF great.

Occasionally things get out of hand tho :D

Hell, I'd still buy every last one of you Pinko commie proggie trolls a beer, and two for my buddy Ludwig, of whatever he's having.

Obdicut! Need a refill? Your glass is looking a little empty.

189 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:26:31pm

re: #166 abbyadams

I bow to your superior punning abilities,

We stand on the shoulders of skinned cats.

190 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:27:01pm

you can lead a horticulture but you can't make her learn ...

191 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:27:03pm

re: #189 Slumbering Behemoth

Lol I don't get that one, but its great :)

192 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:27:07pm

re: #176 windsagio

The lesson here is:

"Talking about racism in the GOP really pisses Republicans off"

I'm surprised nobody's said that more Republicans than Democrats voted for the civil rights act yet, or that (gasp) Lincoln was a Republican!

I would say accusing the GOP of being racist or largely racist really pisses off Republicans who aren't racist and don't appreciate the stereotype.

I recall similar unrest among Democrats about not being patriotic or coddling terrorism ruffling some feathers. The zeitgeist of LGF has moved slightly to the left of where it was immediately after 9/11 but that is no excuse to demonize conservatives.

193 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:27:45pm

re: #180 Obdicut

The Southern Strategy has its obvious conclusion, I think, as does all of the devil's deals that the GOP has made, with the religious right, the nativists, the isolationists. The state of science in the GOP alone makes it completely appalling to me. And by 'in the GOP', I'm referring to statements and actions taken by elected members of the GOP and officials of the GOP, not constituents.

I figure that there are a few more years in the desert before they figure out that they better do something for the future. The brand's going to get so tarnished in the meantime however....

194 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:28:26pm

re: #163 Guanxi88

Call a black partner at a mostly white firm a token, and see what it gets you.

If that law firm lobbied extensively against and sued to stop civil rights legislation and remains proud of that fact to this day, that black partner very well might be a token. Try taking your contextless hypotheticals and placing them in the real world for once.

re: #165 DaddyG

Way to go frank. Insult the other posters - that will really win you points in the debate.

It's not an insult to say one's reading comprehension needs work when, like yours, it quite clearly does.

195 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:29:12pm

re: #154 Jadespring

"I could dance with you till the cows come home. On second thought, I'd rather dance with the cows when you came home."

:)

196 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:29:15pm

re: #186 LudwigVanQuixote

Worse news, it's true.

Who has screwed more people?

197 webevintage  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:29:29pm

This Massa thing has got awesome sauce all over it.
We get the crazy and the sleezy AND a Beck/Malkin slap fight AND Nekid!Rahm.
It is delish....

198 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:30:02pm

re: #192 DaddyG

Dude, you have to look it in the eye, or the cancer will only grow (ok that one wasn't good).

If the GOP would seriously deal with the racist elements in their party, this wouldn't even be coming up. The thing is, the racism is a useful tool, too useful to just throw aside.

Hate or Cynical exploitation of hate? Which is worse?

199 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:30:09pm

re: #194 goddamnedfrank

Got it then. This Steele is a fellow so low, so desperate for advancement, he'd willingly sign on as a token.

Tell him that, then. Perhaps he'll appreciate it.

200 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:30:13pm

re: #196 cliffster

too much. just my humble opinion.

201 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:31:16pm

re: #199 Guanxi88

Maybe he thought he could do some good. I'd imagine Limbaugh beat that out of him.

202 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:31:18pm

re: #193 Thanos

I'm concerned with the harm they're doing to the nation at the same time. It's hard to forgive that time in the wilderness when we have so many critical problems that need to be addressed. Spreading false information about evolution and global warming is simply infuriating, and it will take me a long, long time to forgive them for it. It will take actions, more than anything else.

When they come back from the wilderness, it better be not just shuffling their feet and saying, "Okay we believe science is good now," but ready to demonstrate leadership.

203 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:31:31pm

Look, I am really tired of thin skinned Republican defenders trying to get all cranky that their party has not become a racist cesspool.

Rush LImbagh spokes person for the GOP you betcha!

Racist?

You betcha!

All those comparisons of the first lady to an ape - from actual elected GOP folks... Racist, You betcha!

I mean I could make a very very long list of everything the GOP does to race bait, but really a casual glance at this blog for the past year makes it really plain that your party plays the race card in the most vile way.

If it honestly annoys you, then take back your party, make it sane and respectable again and don't get pissed at me for pointing out the obvious truth that you party as it is now, is racist and obviously and disgustingly so.

204 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:31:38pm

re: #191 windsagio

Lol I don't get that one, but its great :)

It's okay, dude. There's more than one way to skin a giant.

205 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:31:42pm

re: #201 windsagio

err, with hindsight that's a potentially offensive metaphor. I duly apologize >

206 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:32:26pm

re: #204 Slumbering Behemoth

And a perfect dismount!

207 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:32:41pm

re: #196 cliffster

Who has screwed more people?

Ha ha ha. In the mean time cliffster why do you bitch at me for pointing out the obvious truth of the racist planks of the GOP when you could be fighting it from the inside.

Your party is racist.

If you don't like that fact then do something about it.

208 webevintage  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:32:43pm

re: #201 windsagio

Maybe he thought he could do some good. I'd imagine Limbaugh beat that out of him.

Speaking of Rush, did you read that he is gonna move to Costa Rica if HCR passes?

PASS THE DAMN BILL people, the sooner the better.

209 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:32:58pm

re: #199 Guanxi88

Got it then. This Steele is a fellow so low, so desperate for advancement, he'd willingly sign on as a token.

Tell him that, then. Perhaps he'll appreciate it.

You think it speaks poorly of Steele if he realizes that there may be a racial agenda mixed into his being tapped, and goes ahead anyway? I don't.

210 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:33:08pm

re: #201 windsagio

Maybe he thought he could do some good. I'd imagine Limbaugh beat that out of him.

I like Mr Steele and I don't think he's a token in the traditional sense. However, if the POTUS were not an African American, would the GOP have appointed Mr Steele or a more "traditional" choice?

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:33:24pm

re: #201 windsagio

Maybe he thought he could do some good. I'd imagine Limbaugh beat that out of him.

That was pretty horrific.

212 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:33:30pm

re: #207 LudwigVanQuixote

Ha ha ha. In the mean time cliffster why do you bitch at me for pointing out the obvious truth of the racist planks of the GOP when you could be fighting it from the inside.

Your party is racist.

If you don't like that fact then do something about it.

What makes you think I'm not?

213 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:33:37pm

re: #210 _RememberTonyC

I like Mr Steele and I don't think he's a token in the traditional sense. However, if the POTUS were not an African American, would the GOP have appointed Mr Steele or a more "traditional" choice?

Like Martinez?

214 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:33:53pm

re: #208 webevintage

I liked the idea better of him going to Cuba. Get him the hat, the beard, and a good cigar and he can broadcast from there while the heads exploded.

215 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:34:08pm

re: #207 LudwigVanQuixote

Ha ha ha. In the mean time cliffster why do you bitch at me for pointing out the obvious truth of the racist planks of the GOP when you could be fighting it from the inside.

Your party is racist.

If you don't like that fact then do something about it.

Burying ones head in the sand is doing something, no?

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:34:12pm

re: #208 webevintage

Speaking of Rush, did you read that he is gonna move to Costa Rica if HCR passes?

PASS THE DAMN BILL people, the sooner the better.

I daresay some people opposed to HCR will now support it, just to get Limbaugh to leave.

217 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:34:43pm

re: #200 Aceofwhat?

too much. just my humble opinion.

Really? I thought it was open season for disparaging each others' parties? Or so it seemed

218 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:34:54pm

re: #180 Obdicut

The Southern Strategy has its obvious conclusion, I think, as does all of the devil's deals that the GOP has made, with the religious right, the nativists, the isolationists. The state of science in the GOP alone makes it completely appalling to me. And by 'in the GOP', I'm referring to statements and actions taken by elected members of the GOP and officials of the GOP, not constituents.


That's mighty white of you Obdicut./

Seriously - the distinction is important. I know I get frustrated when people assume to know my beleifs and attitudes based on a party affiliation. My black conservative friends (higher percentage than token) get really pissed when they are labeled self loathing or "oreos". I am often surprised to find out as many of my friends belinging to minority groups are as conservative as they are. I am not immune to stereotypes.

I think there is a large mass of fiscal conservatives out there with no one voicing their concerns. They show up to a couple of tax protests then get turned off by the wingnuts. They go to the ballot box to find socon vs. socon lite as their choices.

219 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:34:57pm

re: #210 _RememberTonyC

I think the answer is obvious (and for you smarties, its 'the latter')

re: #213 Guanxi88

like Katon Dawson, who almost won anyways, and became politically active because he was outraged over integration.

220 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:35:05pm

re: #217 cliffster

Really? I thought it was open season for disparaging each others' parties? Or so it seemed

No, it's not. We've been over this already.

221 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:35:05pm

So I repeat, in the GOP these days they truly do believe that white makes right. Why else would there be all that demonization about a big scary black man taking America from your lilly white hands?

Today I am simply not in the mood for the insipid word games that call things that are obvious to anyone sane something that they aren't.

222 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:35:34pm

re: #219 windsagio

I think the answer is obvious (and for you smarties, its 'the latter')

re: #213 Guanxi88

like Katon Dawson, who almost won anyways, and became politically active because he was outraged over integration.

Almost - horseshoes and handgrenades.

223 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:35:44pm

re: #217 cliffster

Really? I thought it was open season for disparaging each others' parties? Or so it seemed

It is. I hope to distinguish myself by abstaining.

224 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:35:53pm

re: #194 goddamnedfrank

It's not an insult to say one's reading comprehension needs work when, like yours, it quite clearly does.


I clearly comprenend you don't agree with me. I also clearly comprehend your social skills are lacking.

225 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:35:59pm

re: #213 Guanxi88

Like Martinez?

Please refresh my memory ...... there's more than one Martinez ....

226 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:36:14pm

re: #212 cliffster

What makes you think I'm not?

Well the facty that you like to deny that there is a problem so vociferously, and that you try to down play how much of a problem it really is every time I point it out would be a big indicator that you do nothing about it.

People don't do things about things they deny exist. That is the whole point of denial after all.

227 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:36:24pm

re: #220 Guanxi88

No, it's not. We've been over this already.

Aha. Must have been in a meeting. And three-fourths of the liberals here were too. ;)

228 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:36:31pm

re: #203 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm doing my best you fuckwad grenade throwing troll. Now answer my question, I'm in the GOP are you calling me racist?

229 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:36:44pm

re: #222 Guanxi88

Almost - horseshoes and handgrenades.

Atom bombs!

230 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:36:49pm

re: #221 LudwigVanQuixote

So I repeat, in the GOP these days they truly do believe that white makes right. Why else would there be all that demonization about a big scary black man taking America from your lilly white hands?

Today I am simply not in the mood for the insipid word games that call things that are obvious to anyone sane something that they aren't.

Well, if you're not in the mood, then we simple plebes should scatter before ye, surely...

231 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:36:50pm

re: #225 _RememberTonyC

Please refresh my memory ... there's more than one Martinez ...

Mel Martinez.

232 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:36:53pm

re: #217 cliffster

That's a pretty brutal misrepresentation of the discussion here, isn't it?

Racism is a serious problem for the GOP, and needs to be dealt with, not just for the good of the Nation, but for the good of the Party.

trying to reduce it to 'just bashing' is really badly missing the point.

233 webevintage  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:36:55pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

I daresay some people opposed to HCR will now support it, just to get Limbaugh to leave.

The best part is Costa Rica has excellent health care because they have..... you know where this is going right?
Universal Coverage.

234 Girth  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:37:18pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

I daresay some people opposed to HCR will now support it, just to get Limbaugh to leave.

It's got me back on the fence.

Actually, I've been back on the fence for a little while simply because I'm convinced that the GOP is flat-out lying to me about everything. The Rush thing would push me over, if I could get it in writing.

235 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:37:38pm

re: #229 Floral Giraffe

Atom bombs!

Pfft, child's toys.

Anti-matter bombs is where its at.

236 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:37:46pm

re: #228 Thanos

I'm doing my best you fuckwad grenade throwing troll. Now answer my question, I'm in the GOP are you calling me racist?

No not at all. As I have said endlessly, the GOP would call you a Rino or worse for your sane and reasoned writings.

You are no longer them.

Your party left you ages ago.

Why can you not smell that coffee?

237 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:38:32pm

re: #222 Guanxi88

8 ballots man!

Also, you forgot to mangle the metaphor :p

"Horseshoes and Sherman Tanks" there you go :)

238 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:39:27pm

re: #226 LudwigVanQuixote

Well the facty that you like to deny that there is a problem so vociferously, and that you try to down play how much of a problem it really is every time I point it out would be a big indicator that you do nothing about it.

People don't do things about things they deny exist. That is the whole point of denial after all.

I don't deny anything. What I'm vociferous about is your ludicrous statements about the GOP being vile, disgusting evil racist sexist homophobic etc etc etc terrible horrible devil's work And mostly what I'm trying to do is let you know that words like that make the speaker look foolish.

239 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:39:33pm

re: #236 LudwigVanQuixote

Loyalty is very very important in human psychology.

And as any marketer knows, brand loyalty lasts long after the product suffers.

240 Gus  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:40:29pm

Just saw this Tweet:

daveweigel

RT @AdamSerwer: Limbaugh just can't quit the race-baiting [Link: bit.ly...]

Which is:

Limbaugh: "For the first time in his life, Paterson is gonna be a massa" if he chooses Massa's replacement

CALLER: Yeah. Hey, listen. Interesting sidebar to that Eric Massa mess for Democrats. You know, our besieged governor, David Paterson, will be charged with naming a replacement for Massa. And I'm wondering if there's any chance -- do you think that Paterson --

RUSH LIMBAUGH: Wait a minute.

CALLER: -- will exact some revenge on Obama, Emanuel, Cuomo, the whole Democratic gulag, by appointing a Republican or, at the very least, a DINO -- a Democrat in name only?

LIMBAUGH: Are you sure that Paterson appoints or is there a special election?

CALLER: I am reasonably sure that Paterson will be appointing the replacement, assuming that he, you know, doesn't resign in the next 60 or 90 days.

LIMBAUGH: Let's assume you're right. So, David Paterson will become the massa --

CALLER: Yes.

LIMBAUGH: -- who gets to appoint whoever gets to take Massa's place. So, for the first time in his life, Paterson's gonna be a massa. Interesting, interesting.

241 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:40:37pm

re: #230 Aceofwhat?

Well, if you're not in the mood, then we simple plebes should scatter before ye, surely...

Ace you are not helping.

This blog has been documenting the decline of the GOP into hysteria, racism and sheer madness for over a year.

All of the people getting on me for stating the simple truth have all been here to see the evidence. I am not sure wwhy they can not face it.

The GOP is pushing the white makes right card every single time they push an Obama is a monkey thing. They do it everytime they spread fear that the black, not even American, not Christain, socialist man is going to take your guns so you can not resist when he kills your granny card, they are not only race baiting but playing to the darkest fears of the racists.

Of course they are racist.

What is wrong with you?

242 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:41:14pm

re: #240 Gus 802

SATIRE!11!11!1

243 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:41:24pm

re: #240 Gus 802

How apropos.

244 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:41:31pm

re: #237 windsagio

8 ballots man!

Also, you forgot to mangle the metaphor :p

"Horseshoes and Sherman Tanks" there you go :)

Eh, shows me that support for Steele was pretty strong, and I daresay that Katon - what the hell kinda name is that, anyway? - lost his racist bona fides by trying to integrate his country club - before he left after they didn't go along.

245 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:41:57pm

re: #232 windsagio

That's a pretty brutal misrepresentation of the discussion here, isn't it?

Racism is a serious problem for the GOP, and needs to be dealt with, not just for the good of the Nation, but for the good of the Party.

trying to reduce it to 'just bashing' is really badly missing the point.

Perhaps - but I was referring more to the totality of the conversations here, not just this thread. You could say it's not fair to say a lot of "just bashing" goes on, but I could also say it's not fair to say the sky is blue.

246 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:41:58pm

re: #239 windsagio

Loyalty is very very important in human psychology.

And as any marketer knows, brand loyalty lasts long after the product suffers.


...as illustrated by FDR Democrats still voting the party ticket after Carter. /

(couldn't resist)

247 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:42:15pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote

If WUB were here he'd call it Tribalism.

So I will in his place >>

248 Gus  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:42:22pm

re: #243 Obdicut

How apropos.

Yeah, the never ending bile that comes out of Limbaugh's mouth.

249 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:42:43pm

re: #236 LudwigVanQuixote

No not at all. As I have said endlessly, the GOP would call you a Rino or worse for your sane and reasoned writings.

You are no longer them.

Your party left you ages ago.

Why can you not smell that coffee?

Maybe much of it did, and certainly the leadership isn't there right now, but your slam of the whole party demonstrates your own hate and bigotry. Your ability to put people into boxes and stereotype them with one handle. Your willingness to smear, exaggerate and basically lie just to further your point. You said "GOP" you did not specify or delineate, therefor you mean me as well, so don't try to back off from your bullshit now.

250 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:43:11pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote

gah. your mood is darkening your vision again.

i was making a simple reply to your "i am simply not in the mood" comment. it was hilariously imperious.

i'm simply not in the mood to be concerned about your mood!

it does not mean anything else. i have already acknowledged the problem; your not having read it is no big deal, except when you make presumptions.

251 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:43:31pm

re: #246 DaddyG

Hey I've never said Democrats weren't human...

Altho' that would be awesome. Imagine if they were an alien conspiracy from the star Delta Pegasii intent on enslaving us?

252 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:43:48pm

re: #238 cliffster

I don't deny anything. What I'm vociferous about is your ludicrous statements about the GOP being vile, disgusting evil racist sexist homophobic etc etc etc terrible horrible devil's work And mostly what I'm trying to do is let you know that words like that make the speaker look foolish.

Umm have you been listening to this party that you claim to be a part of?

Are they not anti-science?

Are they not very anti-gay to the point of open gay bashing?

Do you really think that the GOP stands up for women's rights - the key one's being birth control and reproductive freedoms?

Which GOP are you talking about?

The one around these days is racist, sexist, anti-science, anti-intellectual, anti- personal privacy, pro torture and frankly evil as far as I am concerned, because I consider being an ignorant callous jerk who thinks that poor people deserve to be poor and all the other crap they spew to be evil.

253 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:44:25pm

re: #239 windsagio

Loyalty is very very important in human psychology.

And as any marketer knows, brand loyalty lasts long after the product suffers.


In all seriousness what viable alternative brand exists for fiscal conservatives. I've done a lot of nose holding in recent elections and the forces trying to vie for the title of new conservatives (Tea Parties) is going in the wrong direction. I kind of hope they spin so fast they launch themselves out of the GOP and into irrelevance.

A lot of GOPers are holding on for dear life hoping to get their party back - not because they are closet or uncloseted racists.

254 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:44:35pm

re: #252 LudwigVanQuixote

Great! Now he's back to talking about evil.

255 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:44:35pm

re: #251 windsagio

Hey I've never said Democrats weren't human...

Altho' that would be awesome. Imagine if they were an alien conspiracy from the star Delta Pegasii intent on enslaving us?

*Whack* Quiet, fool!
/

256 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:44:42pm

re: #203 LudwigVanQuixote

Meh, plenty of racism to go around.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw tantrums.

257 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:44:43pm

re: #252 LudwigVanQuixote

Hehe. No bashing there. Thanks for proving me right.

258 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:45:00pm

re: #240 Gus 802

Just saw this Tweet:

Thank you... Yes guys, GOP, not racist... stay classy and blind to all who deny it.

259 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:45:08pm

Cisco unveils ultra-fast router.

260 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:45:15pm

re: #256 Spare O'Lake

You're sayinc Ludwig is racist? I wanna hear this one >

261 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:45:18pm

re: #240 Gus 802

Just saw this Tweet:

Holy guacamole! We need a two party system and that will mean a drastic effort to restore dignity and responsible leadership to the Republican Party. We can start by sending these defacto leaders and whorehouse ideologues back to the small-market DJ slots and minor league lobbying firms that best suit their intellect and style.

262 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:45:18pm

re: #231 Guanxi88

Mel Martinez.

Thanks ... I don't think the appointment of Martinez was a direct response to another Latino taking over a prominent leadership position in the other party. But with Mr Steele (whom I kinda like), it seemed a bit more calculated. Despite his very solid qualifications, he might not have been appointed if the GOP didn't feel the need to counter BHO's presence. Of course, that is just one man's opinion.

263 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:45:28pm

re: #254 Guanxi88

Great! Now he's back to talking about evil.

Actually Cliff brought it up and yes, racism is evil.

264 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:45:38pm

re: #251 windsagio

Hey I've never said Democrats weren't human...

Altho' that would be awesome. Imagine if they were an alien conspiracy from the star Delta Pegasii intent on enslaving us?

Who told you!!??

265 Girth  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:45:43pm

re: #240 Gus 802

And millions of loyal listeners chuckled along...

Satire my ass. Rush....go to hell.

And to the inevitable Rush defenders...you should be ashamed of yourselves.

266 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:46:05pm

re: #257 cliffster

Hehe. No bashing there. Thanks for proving me right.

What that you are smug about being willfully blind?

267 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:46:11pm

re: #253 DaddyG

I don't know the answer... Its a tough situation.

I just think denying the problem isn't the way to deal with it.

268 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:46:29pm

re: #256 Spare O'Lake

Meh, plenty of racism to go around.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw tantrums.

Dude calling me racist is really f'n stupid.

269 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:46:40pm

Wow, time flies when you're a choosy beggar. Gotta bail, Lizards.

Laters

270 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:46:59pm

re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually Cliff brought it up and yes, racism is evil.

Is it evil by virtue of its being a plank of the GOP, or is it some sorta Platonic Forms kinda deal, where racism and the GOP both "participate" in the form that is Evil?

271 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:47:03pm

re: #269 Slumbering Behemoth

Great exit!

272 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:47:06pm

re: #62 That's Glenn Beck to you

This is not blowing up in my face.

In fact - everything is fitting into place.

let me draw it out for you:

Pelosi ---> Massa ---> Sex scandal

Take the first letter of each : PMS. And it is PMS that starts with Pelosi. Isn't this an obvious set up?

But there is more:

Staffers --->Erections--->Interns--->Universal condemnation

Who is behind that? SEIU!

So Massa is being set up by Pelosi and the SEIU!

All of this is falling neatly into place.

Damn, you're good...

;-P

273 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:47:07pm

re: #244 Guanxi88

Eh, shows me that support for Steele was pretty strong, and I daresay that Katon - what the hell kinda name is that, anyway? - lost his racist bona fides by trying to integrate his country club - before he left after they didn't go along.

This is an obvious and deceptive half-truth. Katon Dawson didn't write the letter urging his country club to change its policy until after he became interested in the RNC position:

Word actually began to trickle back this summer, when Dawson first began to look into the RNC position, and forced Dawson to defend himself. To that end, Dawson provided his local paper, The State, with a letter from August, in which he stated his intention to fight the “unacceptable” stipulation. That letter read, in part, “It is with only the best interests of our club’s proud tradition at heart that I inform you of my intent to work to change the club practice that would exclude membership for anyone based on any specific ethnicity.” That letter came just 11 days before the RNC’s conference and has some wondering if Dawson was simply playing politics.

274 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:47:30pm

re: #240 Gus 802

Just saw this Tweet:

Gah...

275 Gus  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:47:44pm

re: #261 Shiplord Kirel

Holy guacamole! We need a two party system and that will mean a drastic effort to restore dignity and responsible leadership to the Republican Party. We can start by sending these defacto leaders and whorehouse ideologues back to the small-market DJ slots and minor league lobbying firms that best suit their intellect and style.

Try as they may it just never seems to stick. To do something about the Rush Limbaugh problem. Some have tried as you know and that just resulted in later apologies to Limbaugh. Thus he keeps firing away.

276 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:48:11pm

re: #268 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude calling me racist is really f'n stupid.

But the word "bigot" fits perfect n'est ce pas?"

277 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:48:18pm

re: #253 DaddyG


Just remember if 'holding on' involves actively voting for those candidates, you are supporting their positions.

I think dividing things up into only two possible areas-- liberal or conservative-- is always going to be polarizing, and the truth is that those divisions are just what the two parties would like to perpetuate.

Many 'liberal' solutions are based around saving money in the long run, for example. That's a perfectly 'conservative' position.

278 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:48:30pm

re: #239 windsagio

Loyalty is very very important in human psychology.

And as any marketer knows, brand loyalty lasts long after the product suffers.

Well said.

The new GOP now with 20% more racism and 30% more fascism!

279 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:49:09pm

re: #270 Guanxi88

Is it evil by virtue of its being a plank of the GOP, or is it some sorta Platonic Forms kinda deal, where racism and the GOP both "participate" in the form that is Evil?

Wait a minute, racism really is evil and you think it is a word game... brilliant there boyo... f'n brilliant.

280 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:49:11pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote

Ace you are not helping.

This blog has been documenting the decline of the GOP into hysteria, racism and sheer madness for over a year.

All of the people getting on me for stating the simple truth have all been here to see the evidence. I am not sure wwhy they can not face it.

The GOP is pushing the white makes right card every single time they push an Obama is a monkey thing. They do it everytime they spread fear that the black, not even American, not Christain, socialist man is going to take your guns so you can not resist when he kills your granny card, they are not only race baiting but playing to the darkest fears of the racists.

Of course they are racist.

What is wrong with you?


Massachusetts voted for Scott Brown, and Mass is not a place that generally votes for racist pols. So my suggestion to you is that not EVERY member of the GOP is a racist. And maybe you even agree with that, but you are painting with a broad brush. And that is why some are challenging your (dare I say it) STEREOTYPE about Republicans.

281 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:49:16pm

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

-- Joe Biden

282 Girth  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:49:56pm

Time for beer, wings and trivia...

I'd ask them to show Beck at the bar, but I'd probably get into a fight with someone who thinks he's just ducky.

Play nice.

283 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:50:20pm

re: #281 cliffster

Yes we've heard that. Its pointless of course, I should have put that quote in with the Civil Rights Act and Lincoln.

We've heard all the crap you use to deflect racism.

284 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:50:24pm

Wheee!
Semantics Wars are...boring.
;)

285 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:50:38pm

re: #274 Thanos

What do you think the odds are of the GOP coming down hard on Limbaugh for that one?

286 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:50:45pm

re: #284 Varek Raith

want me to make it personal? >>

287 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:51:10pm

re: #286 windsagio

want me to make it personal? >>

Go for it!
/

288 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:51:33pm

re: #287 Varek Raith

Pick a target! (can't be Charles)

289 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:51:39pm

re: #279 LudwigVanQuixote

Wait a minute, racism really is evil and you think it is a word game... brilliant there boyo... f'n brilliant.

You're a better dialectician than that.

You throw the term evil around so very much, it seems to me you ought to at least have a coherent account of how an attitude toward another ethnicity, a national political party, and the gold industry, and others can all be called by this one same name. They're surely quite heterogeneous.

290 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:51:51pm

re: #285 Obdicut

What do you think the odds are of the GOP coming down hard on Limbaugh for that one?

Some will, but it will be solo actions. It won't be the party leadership, because there isn't any party leadership at present.

291 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:52:04pm

re: #280 _RememberTonyC

Massachusetts voted for Scott Brown, and Mass is not a place that generally votes for racist pols. So my suggestion to you is that not EVERY member of the GOP is a racist. And maybe you even agree with that, but you are painting with a broad brush. And that is why some are challenging your (dare I say it) STEREOTYPE about Republicans.

Umm what did I say?

Why is it everytime I say this, I get the same nonsense over and over again?

Of course there are of rank and file Republicans who are not racist, or homophobic or sexist etc...

That's great!

They are not the one's in charge.

They are not the ones making the speeches.

They are the ones being purged from the GOP.

Yet somehow everyone is all concern troll over the simple fact that whatever the GOP was, it isn't that any more. Again, wake up and smell the coffee.

I am not the one who turned the GOP into the cesspit it is now. I am simply saying what everyone knows.

292 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:52:17pm

re: #288 windsagio

Pick a target! (can't be Charles)

[puts up her hand] Me me!

293 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:52:20pm

re: #289 Guanxi88

I think is that they mix and bake into a tasty cake o' evil.

294 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:52:44pm

re: #292 Jadespring

[puts up her hand] Me me!

Heh, volunteers!

295 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:52:54pm

re: #283 windsagio

Yes we've heard that. Its pointless of course, I should have put that quote in with the Civil Rights Act and Lincoln.

We've heard all the crap you use to deflect racism.

You're right, no biggie, we should just put that blatantly racist comment behind us. Nothing to see here.

296 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:53:07pm

re: #286 windsagio

want me to make it personal? >>

pronouns at 10 paces?

297 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:53:07pm

re: #284 Varek Raith

Wheee!
Semantics Wars are...boring.
;)

Absolutely. Semantics is the wingut's first line of defense when faced with facts they do not like. The second line is to whine piteously about the person saying them.

298 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:53:07pm

re: #292 Jadespring

OK!

I'm going to rename you Laika.


/Because you're a Russian Dog.

299 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:53:25pm

re: #280 _RememberTonyC

Massachusetts voted for Scott Brown, and Mass is not a place that generally votes for racist pols. So my suggestion to you is that not EVERY member of the GOP is a racist. And maybe you even agree with that, but you are painting with a broad brush. And that is why some are challenging your (dare I say it) STEREOTYPE about Republicans.

my post had nothing to do with race...and yet i was "challenging the stereotype".

next thing you know i'll post an Eric Idle quote and will receive a similar challenge.

sigh.

300 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:53:45pm

re: #277 Obdicut

Just remember if 'holding on' involves actively voting for those candidates, you are supporting their positions.

I think dividing things up into only two possible areas-- liberal or conservative-- is always going to be polarizing, and the truth is that those divisions are just what the two parties would like to perpetuate.

Many 'liberal' solutions are based around saving money in the long run, for example. That's a perfectly 'conservative' position.


Well said. My experience is that many conservative voters are work within the system kind of folks. When the system becomes corrupted that creates a problem - how far in can I be to change the nature of the beast without being coopted by it?

That is not a problem unique to conservatism but by their very nature "trusting the system" is going to cause them to move more slowly than the "fight the system" approach of many liberal politicians.

Perhaps Steele and his suppporters feel they can do more good inside than they can by abandoning the party to the radical wingnuts?

301 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:54:14pm

re: #297 LudwigVanQuixote

"Can't argue with the content, argue with the way its said!"

Be glad you're pretty careful with your typing, or they would have gone after you for misspelling "Eivl"

302 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:54:46pm

re: #290 Thanos

Some will, but it will be solo actions. It won't be the party leadership, because there isn't any party leadership at present.

I don't think any will. It's just common from him now. We'll see.

303 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:54:47pm

Calling Michael Steele a "token". Nope, that's not racist. 's all good.

304 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:55:07pm

re: #290 Thanos

I think a large part of the reason that I don't find Ludwig's comments all that over the top is that very reason. The GOP embraces Limbaugh pretty tightly. Limbaugh is a race-baiter.

Like I said, I don't think that one can ever call a whole party 'racist', but when people who are hugely important in and to that party say very racist things and get a free pass on it from the leadership, or when there is no leadership to castigate him for it, that really does tar the GOP as an entity. It does not tar every member.

305 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:55:15pm

re: #290 Thanos

Some will, but it will be solo actions. It won't be the party leadership, because there isn't any party leadership at present.

Or because Limbaugh is by default part of the party leadership. This is a big part of my point. You are not a racist Thanos, but your party is. The very fact that none would come down on Limbaugh for such things is proof enough.

306 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:55:19pm

re: #301 windsagio

"Can't argue with the content, argue with the way its said!"

Be glad you're pretty careful with your typing, or they would have gone after you for misspelling "Eivl"

ha! he's a horrible typist! but it has nothing to do with whether he's right or not on any given subject, fortunately;)

307 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:55:44pm

re: #279 LudwigVanQuixote

Wait a minute, racism really is evil and you think it is a word game... brilliant there boyo... f'n brilliant.

No, Ludwig, I think you use the term in roughly the same way a low-born would use the oedipal polysyllabic - reflexively and as a matter of course.

308 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:56:03pm

re: #291 LudwigVanQuixote

Umm what did I say?

Why is it everytime I say this, I get the same nonsense over and over again?

Of course there are of rank and file Republicans who are not racist, or homophobic or sexist etc...

That's great!

They are not the one's in charge.

They are not the ones making the speeches.

They are the ones being purged from the GOP.

Yet somehow everyone is all concern troll over the simple fact that whatever the GOP was, it isn't that any more. Again, wake up and smell the coffee.

I am not the one who turned the GOP into the cesspit it is now. I am simply saying what everyone knows.


dude ... read your own quote:

Which GOP are you talking about?

The one around these days is racist, sexist, anti-science, anti-intellectual, anti- personal privacy, pro torture and frankly evil as far as I am concerned,


You were pretty clear in your description ... and you did not differentiate the good from the evil in any way. These were your own words.

309 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:56:13pm

re: #298 windsagio

OK!

I'm going to rename you Laika.

/Because you're a Russian Dog.

And a history making hero!

310 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:56:53pm

re: #309 Jadespring

Hmm, that's not much of an insult then, damn.

The problem is I don't know much about you, except that I for some reason think you're female!

311 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:57:07pm

OT

Stand up and cheer, folks.
Britons who saved Holocaust victims during World War II honoured by Gordon Brown

Sir Nicolas Winton, who organized the rescue of hundreds of Jewish children in Prague in 1939, was there to receive his award in person. He is now 100 years old. Dennis Avey, a mere stipling of 91, received the award for trading places with an inmate at Auschwitz, gathering intelligence on conditions ther and sharing his PoW supplies. Other medals were awarded postumously.

312 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:57:31pm

re: #299 Aceofwhat?

my post had nothing to do with race...and yet i was "challenging the stereotype".

next thing you know i'll post an Eric Idle quote and will receive a similar challenge.

sigh.

Ace ... I was responding to LVQ ...

313 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:57:35pm

re: #304 Obdicut

I think a large part of the reason that I don't find Ludwig's comments all that over the top is that very reason. The GOP embraces Limbaugh pretty tightly. Limbaugh is a race-baiter.

Like I said, I don't think that one can ever call a whole party 'racist', but when people who are hugely important in and to that party say very racist things and get a free pass on it from the leadership, or when there is no leadership to castigate him for it, that really does tar the GOP as an entity. It does not tar every member.

I can't disagree with you on that, but I wont' back off from maintaining that Ludwig's a grenade throwing troll either. He's here to push buttons, not discuss or convince. That's been evident for quite a while.

314 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:57:40pm

Arguing over whose party is more racist by nature of their ugly acts, comments or leadership does nothing to eradicate the problem of racism. Racism like other social problems is best treated by cleaning one's own house not shouting at the top of your lungs and pointing fingers at what the other guy is doing.

315 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:57:42pm

“You think the Republican National Committee could get this many people of color in a single room? … Only if they had the hotel staff in here.”

-- Howard Dean

316 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:58:21pm

re: #306 Aceofwhat?

Man mabye its the audience, I've hit that one on here several times. Its worse when they go after the intentional misspellings.

Also, I'm not really wanting to withdraw from the debate, but its hard to talk to people who just refuse to see, and would rather incite a fight than admit the problem.

(no that doesn't mean you Ace :p)

317 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:58:23pm

re: #310 windsagio

Hmm, that's not much of an insult then, damn.

The problem is I don't know much about you, except that I for some reason think you're female!

That's correct.

Hmmm...I really like beans. Maybe you could make some sort of bean insult.

318 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:58:26pm

re: #312 _RememberTonyC

Ace ... I was responding to LVQ ...

Oh, i know. i was just complaining to you. the post you responded to was a response to...eh, never mind. Pardon my whining.

319 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:58:29pm

re: #311 Shiplord Kirel


Dennis Avey is one of my biggest personal heroes. His story is amazing.

320 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:58:44pm

re: #268 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude calling me racist is really f'n stupid.

Not you Ludwig, the Dems.

321 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:58:53pm

time to go .... have a good one everybody!

322 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:59:00pm

re: #314 DaddyG

-for false equivalence.

There's a serious, dangerous problem, and you can't reduce it to 'the other side is bad too!'

323 zora  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:59:26pm

re: #130 Guanxi88

it would be a "vicious insult" if it weren't true.

324 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:59:26pm

re: #318 Aceofwhat?

Oh, i know. i was just complaining to you. the post you responded to was a response to...eh, never mind. Pardon my whining.

no worries ... I'm here for you!

325 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:00:21pm

re: #313 Thanos

Ludwig's explanation for his tactics is satisfactory for me. I think he's wrong, but I think he has an honest intention to convince through being, well, extremely provocative. Likewise, he thinks-- at least on some subjects-- I'm far too reserved.

Yes, there's real rage behind what he says, but that doesn't make him a troll.

326 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:00:38pm

re: #316 windsagio

Man mabye its the audience, I've hit that one on here several times. Its worse when they go after the intentional misspellings.

Also, I'm not really wanting to withdraw from the debate, but its hard to talk to people who just refuse to see, and would rather incite a fight than admit the problem.

(no that doesn't mean you Ace :p)

it's all good, W.

327 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:00:44pm

re: #308 _RememberTonyC

You were pretty clear in your description ... and you did not differentiate the good from the evil in any way. These were your own words.

Semantics again and again...

This is foolish and beneath you.

The major lines of the GOP are exactly as I have described them. Just because there is a minority that disagrees with them and still for some crazy reason considers themselves a part of the GOP does not change the truth of what I am saying or what has been endlessly documented here.

At the end of the Day all of you were sanguine when CJ wrote why he parted ways with the right.

They were pretty much exactly for those reasons.

Yet you do not give him whining and cringing pearl clutching about saying the exact same thing.

Of course I can't ban you for being a twit. So I get your faux outrage.

328 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:01:07pm

re: #311 Shiplord Kirel

Here's a good piece on Avey:

[Link: women.timesonline.co.uk...]

329 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:01:15pm

re: #325 Obdicut

Ludwig's explanation for his tactics is satisfactory for me. I think he's wrong, but I think he has an honest intention to convince through being, well, extremely provocative. Likewise, he thinks-- at least on some subjects-- I'm far too reserved.

Yes, there's real rage behind what he says, but that doesn't make him a troll.

Trying to convince through being "extremely provocative" is what Rush does. I get it.

330 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:01:29pm

re: #132 Charles

What has always bothered me about people holding up Steele as proof that there is no racism in the GOP is how hypocritical it is.

If you are in the GOP and you assert that there should be no racial quotas in our society and that quotes create low expectations which infers a certain racism, then why whip out "We've got a black guy running our party. See?" to defend against the charge that the party has racists in it?

Such a defense can only mean that the guy is, to some degree, a token and is in the job partly due to the color of his skin. So the GOP goes down the path of racial symbolism, as if to counteract any racial symbolism that Obama represents, when all it accomplishes is to show how hypocritical the party can be on what remains a sensitive issue.

I prefered it when it simply wasn't touted - Rice and Powell didn't get their jobs for being black and Bush himself was not apt to tout it either. Both got their jobs due to long time associations with the Bush family and were selected as assets not as symbols.

This isn't to argue that Steele is solely a symbol. But it is to say that the culture of low expectations and the actual racism that represents has been indulged and continues to be every time Steele is trotted out as "proof" that there is no racism in the Republican ranks.

331 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:02:19pm

re: #325 Obdicut

Ludwig's explanation for his tactics is satisfactory for me. I think he's wrong, but I think he has an honest intention to convince through being, well, extremely provocative. Likewise, he thinks-- at least on some subjects-- I'm far too reserved.

Yes, there's real rage behind what he says, but that doesn't make him a troll.

i agree. A for sincerity, F for evangelism. better than the converse.

332 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:02:26pm

In the biz it's known as throwing grenades...

you know..
Death Panels!
The GOP is racist!

It's bumpersticker debate and absurd

333 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:02:47pm

Police in Ireland on Tuesday arrested seven people over an alleged plot to kill a Swedish cartoonist who depicted the prophet Mohammed with the body of a dog.

Irish police said four men and three women were detained in raids across the south of the country.

The arrests were part of an investigation into a "conspiracy to murder an individual in another jurisdiction," the force said.

SNIP

334 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:02:50pm

re: #322 windsagio

-for false equivalence.

There's a serious, dangerous problem, and you can't reduce it to 'the other side is bad too!'

Not false equivelence... you misunderstand. If an outsider points fingers and shouts someone down they become more defensive and less likely to change. That is basic human nature. Dems pointing fingers will not change the Republicans. Republicans can only change Republicans. Over the top hyperbole and stereotypes make things worse.

335 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:02:57pm

re: #307 Guanxi88

No, Ludwig, I think you use the term in roughly the same way a low-born would use the oedipal polysyllabic - reflexively and as a matter of course.

So umm for the reality challenged, which you frequently are, let me ask again, Linbaugh, racist? Paul Racist? Are these big players in the GOP to name a few?

What about homophobia or women's rights? Would you care to point out how the GOP is not homophobic overall and virulently so?

Would you care to point out how they historically support women?

And what about anti science?

Are you honestly trying to claim that the GOP is pro science or has been in the past several decades?

336 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:02:59pm

re: #327 LudwigVanQuixote

Semantics again and again...

This is foolish and beneath you.

The major lines of the GOP are exactly as I have described them. Just because there is a minority that disagrees with them and still for some crazy reason considers themselves a part of the GOP does not change the truth of what I am saying or what has been endlessly documented here.

At the end of the Day all of you were sanguine when CJ wrote why he parted ways with the right.

They were pretty much exactly for those reasons.

Yet you do not give him whining and cringing pearl clutching about saying the exact same thing.

Of course I can't ban you for being a twit. So I get your faux outrage.


I've seen your "over the top" hysterical posts about AGW .... your track record is well known .... take a chill pill and admit your wrong when you're wrong. It will do wonders for your credibility. (And no, I'm not denying climate change exists). Now I really am outta here.

337 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:03:16pm

re: #326 Aceofwhat?

Hey man, its all good

Youtube Video
338 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:03:59pm

re: #329 Thanos

That's unfair. Ludwig would never hid behind "it was just satire" and bait people. You know exactly where he stands, and he doesn't flip his position around. He is not at all like Limbaugh.

Now, let's reflect on this gorgeous quote from Avey, quoting Einstein, even.

“Despite the danger, I knew I had to bear witness,” Avey says. “As Albert Einstein said: the world can be an evil place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. I’ve never been one to do nothing.”

339 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:04:05pm

re: #334 DaddyG

You don't have to believe this, but I'm not a Democrat. I've hated them since they murdered the Open Primary in WA state.

340 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:04:46pm

re: #336 _RememberTonyC

Nothing Ludwig has written about AGW has been hysterical or over the top.

341 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:04:50pm

re: #329 Thanos

Trying to convince through being "extremely provocative" is what Rush does. I get it.

Wait a minute, what you guys are missing is that I was not trying to be provocative really. I am stating facts.

So once again?

When I say the GOP is racist, homophobic, anti-science, ant-woman and all the other things... how can any sane person deny that yes indeed they are that way as a whole and have been for some time?

342 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:04:57pm

re: #335 LudwigVanQuixote

So umm for the reality challenged, which you frequently are, let me ask again, Linbaugh, racist? Paul Racist? Are these big players in the GOP to name a few?

What about homophobia or women's rights? Would you care to point out how the GOP is not homophobic overall and virulently so?

Would you care to point out how they historically support women?

And what about anti science?

Are you honestly trying to claim that the GOP is pro science or has been in the past several decades?

What else could you expect from the party of evil?

And I tell you the truth, Ludwig, much as I think you're a good sort, I think you get a bit out of line from time to time.

But then, I'm just reality-challenged racist filth, so what do I know?

343 zora  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:05:06pm

re: #273 goddamnedfrank

and he has since rejoined. he wasn't making a stand, of course.

344 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:05:17pm

re: #340 Obdicut

Nothing Ludwig has written about AGW has been hysterical or over the top.

your opinion ...

345 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:05:20pm

re: #340 Obdicut

Nothing Ludwig has written about AGW has been hysterical or over the top.

//

346 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:06:03pm

re: #338 Obdicut

That's unfair. Ludwig would never hid behind "it was just satire" and bait people. You know exactly where he stands, and he doesn't flip his position around. He is not at all like Limbaugh.

Now, let's reflect on this gorgeous quote from Avey, quoting Einstein, even.

It's absolutely fair -- Ludwig's a grenade thrower, Rush is a grenade thrower. That Rush is more of a coward and backs off a bit differently than Ludwig doesn't make a diff - a grenade is a grenade.

347 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:07:01pm

re: #336 _RememberTonyC

I've seen your "over the top" hysterical posts about AGW ... your track record is well known ... take a chill pill and admit your wrong when you're wrong. It will do wonders for your credibility. (And no, I'm not denying climate change exists). Now I really am outta here.

Now why did you have to go to AGW?

I never confuse my politics with my science and I have never said a single thing that was over the top or hysterical or in anyway not supported by the facts and the evidence.

If the science of what I say sounds alarming, good. A sane person would be alarmed at the thought of billions of deaths and the collapse of our current civilization as we know it.

If you think either of those statements is over the top, then challenge them on the basis of facts and science.

348 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:07:05pm

re: #341 LudwigVanQuixote

Wait a minute, what you guys are missing is that I was not trying to be provocative really. I am stating facts.

So once again?

When I say the GOP is racist, homophobic, anti-science, ant-woman and all the other things... how can any sane person deny that yes indeed they are that way as a whole and have been for some time?

The Vice President of the US, presumably second-in-command of the democratic party, has made many racist statements. Brushed aside now. Yeah-yeah, we've all heard that. Sounds like supporting racism to me. Sup with that?

349 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:07:07pm

re: #346 Thanos

It's absolutely fair -- Ludwig's a grenade thrower, Rush is a grenade thrower. That Rush is more of a coward and backs off a bit differently than Ludwig doesn't make a diff - a grenade is a grenade.

Ludwig's not a grenade-thrower. He's a one-man wrecking crew, out to hunt down evil and oppose it wherever it may be.

350 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:07:28pm

re: #341 LudwigVanQuixote

The Gop as a whole is not that way, much of it is. Can you tell the difference between the whole and its parts? I thought you were versant in science and were capable of doing so, I guess not.

351 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:07:47pm

re: #344 _RememberTonyC

re: #344 _RememberTonyC

Yes, it is. It's also the truth. The methane outgassing is really, really, really fucking bad news, so Ludwig may have actually understated the problem.

There is a real possibility of a mass species extinction.

352 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:08:57pm

We can look as Steele and his supporters as cynical opportunists who are using his race to gain a power position through tokenism.

We could look at Steele and his supporters as genuine (classic) conservatives who would like to bring the party back in line with their small government fiscal responsibility platform.

The truth is only Michael Steele knows his motivations and the truth is probably not as clean cut or easy to understand as either of these options.

353 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:09:25pm

re: #346 Thanos

So other than the ways he's different, he's the same as Limbaugh.

Ludwig is not like Limbaugh. If you want to talk hyperbolic statements, that's one in spades.

354 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:09:35pm

re: #344 _RememberTonyC

your opinion ...

So how about facts and data rather than opinions. That is how science is done.

What exactly have I ever said about AGW that was over the top or unsupported - and here is the clincher kiddo, you have to bring evidence of your own to make a case for it scientifically, because you just being pissed at me does not make for a science argument.

355 DaddyG  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:10:42pm

re: #349 Guanxi88

Ludwig's not a grenade-thrower. He's a one-man wrecking crew, out to hunt down evil and oppose it wherever it may be.


A crusade! How lovely.

I still contend you won't change someone for the better by dressing them down. That applies to groups too.

356 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:10:51pm

re: #354 LudwigVanQuixote

.... just being pissed at me does not make for a science argument.

But works perfectly in so many other subject areas, eh, buddy?

357 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:11:12pm

re: #132 Charles

Absolutely agree with you. The whole Republican Party is not racist.

However, saying that they have a black man as head of the RNC doesn't excuse the significant pockets of racism that do exist; that's my only point in this particular discussion.

I get really weary of this tactic. It's used over and over. The event James O'Keefe attended can't be a white nationalist event because they also had a black speaker. The Pentagon shooter can't be a right wing libertarian because he was registered Democrat. Rush Limbaugh can't possibly be race-baiting because his producer is black. Etc. Etc.

This tactic is VERY COMMON here in the Bay Area among anti-Israel groups such as Jewish Voice for Peace and International Answer. It's all part of the greater propaganda war.

358 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:12:00pm

re: #355 DaddyG

A crusade! How lovely.

I still contend you won't change someone for the better by dressing them down. That applies to groups too.

How dare yo throw the word "crusade" around like that! How dare you accuse him of being a vicious christofascist retrograde evil-doer!

Evil!

359 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:12:20pm

re: #354 LudwigVanQuixote

Billions will perish.
Billions will suffer.
Prove it or shut your face already.

360 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:12:31pm

re: #350 Thanos

The Gop as a whole is not that way, much of it is. Can you tell the difference between the whole and its parts? I thought you were versant in science and were capable of doing so, I guess not.

Can you tell the difference between a majority and a minority? I would think that if you are going to snark at a scientist for being able to measure correctly, you would note that the majority of the GOP these days does not think like you. The majority of the GOP is either openly racist, homophobic, anti-science etc - or it says nothing and tacitly approves by doing nothing.

Since that is the case with the majority of the GOP, it is valid and accurate to brand the party as such even though there are some holdouts who are still reasonable.

361 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:13:42pm

re: #359 Spare O'Lake

That's the current most probable estimate, based on the best science available to us.

Most of those people will be in the developing world, but we'll suffer too.

That is, if it's not a mass-species die-off.

Yay.

362 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:14:16pm

re: #360 LudwigVanQuixote

I think they're at the point of 'lets just pick a huge fight with Ludwig because we know that'll chase everyone out of the thread"

(see Spare's baiting on AGW)

363 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:14:52pm

re: #356 Guanxi88

But works perfectly in so many other subject areas, eh, buddy?

Yes, My opinions are my opinions and my opinion of the GOP is very low indeed. However that is not a scientific statement. Howevre, it is also not unsupported by evidence. Have you noticed that you have yet to effectively deny any of the things I have said about the GOP with a basis of fact.

so once again?

Are they say, homophobic? Yes or no?

If you do not think it is fair to call them homophobic, on what basis of evidence can you claim so given their history and stump speeches?

364 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:32:11pm

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, My opinions are my opinions and my opinion of the GOP is very low indeed. However that is not a scientific statement. Howevre, it is also not unsupported by evidence. Have you noticed that you have yet to effectively deny any of the things I have said about the GOP with a basis of fact.

so once again?

Are they say, homophobic? Yes or no?

If you do not think it is fair to call them homophobic, on what basis of evidence can you claim so given their history and stump speeches?

Now, by "homophobic" do you mean - openly advocating the infliction of violence on gays and lesbians, or do you mean suggesting that perhaps the institution of marriage is not yet ready to be expanded to include same-sex pairings? I'd suggest that the former is all but impossible to find, the latter, not at all uncommon, and not at all even closely resembling evil.

365 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:34:11pm

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, My opinions are my opinions and my opinion of the GOP is very low indeed.
so once again?

Are they say, homophobic? Yes or no?

If you do not think it is fair to call them homophobic, on what basis of evidence can you claim so given their history and stump speeches?

(i'll add, too, that you are sometimes imprecise in your use of language; I realize it's primarily for polemical purposes - nothing wrong with that, it's a fine tradition - but for pity's sake!)

366 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:34:37pm

And, now, off to my other job!

367 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:36:03pm

re: #364 Guanxi88

You're whitewashing 'the latter'. They're not disinterestedly worried about the institution of marriage.

Not wanting gays to have the same rights as straight people is homophobia. You can say it's excusable homophobia, from people from some backgrounds. Doesn't mean it's not homophobia.

And given the Uganda thing, this is no time to talk about the killing of homosexuals.

368 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:37:49pm

re: #364 Guanxi88

Now, by "homophobic" do you mean - openly advocating the infliction of violence on gays and lesbians, or do you mean suggesting that perhaps the institution of marriage is not yet ready to be expanded to include same-sex pairings? I'd suggest that the former is all but impossible to find, the latter, not at all uncommon, and not at all even closely resembling evil.

NO I mean stop trying to spin furiously.

I mean openly spreading scare memes about gay men indoctrinating your children. I mean open;y denying them the same right to serve openly in the military like anyone else. I mean pointedly denying them a civil union and the benefits that would come with it.

Your attempts to spin are both laughable and pathetic.

369 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:38:40pm

re: #367 Obdicut

You're whitewashing 'the latter'. They're not disinterestedly worried about the institution of marriage.

Not wanting gays to have the same rights as straight people is homophobia. You can say it's excusable homophobia, from people from some backgrounds. Doesn't mean it's not homophobia.

And given the Uganda thing, this is no time to talk about the killing of homosexuals.


The matter of marriage is not so simple a thing as you might wish it to be; though a contract, it is freighted with cultural and traditional meanings that themselves informed the civil laws aspects of it. People are not ready for it; not yet. It's not hatred or fear of homosexuals that informs this observation - it is rather the lack of any clear precedent for anything even remotely resembling the proposal in our legal or cultural history.

Take up the uganda thing with the ugandans, and spare us the pontification on it.

370 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:39:43pm

re: #369 Guanxi88

Those people who are not ready for it are indeed against it because they fear, dislike, or are religiously prejudiced against homosexuals, in that they don't want them to have the same rights.

This isn't really hard to understand.

371 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:41:42pm

re: #369 Guanxi88

The matter of marriage is not so simple a thing as you might wish it to be; though a contract, it is freighted with cultural and traditional meanings that themselves informed the civil laws aspects of it. People are not ready for it; not yet. It's not hatred or fear of homosexuals that informs this observation - it is rather the lack of any clear precedent for anything even remotely resembling the proposal in our legal or cultural history.

Take up the uganda thing with the ugandans, and spare us the pontification on it.

They are asking for a civil union and the same rights to openly serve in the military as anyone else.

They are denied on a basis of fear and loathing generated from ignorance and perpetuated by the political actions of the GOP.

Again, your laughable attempts to redefine yourself away from the facts makes you look stupid.

372 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:41:51pm

re: #368 LudwigVanQuixote

NO I mean stop trying to spin furiously.

I mean openly spreading scare memes about gay men indoctrinating your children. I mean open;y denying them the same right to serve openly in the military like anyone else. I mean pointedly denying them a civil union and the benefits that would come with it.

Your attempts to spin are both laughable and pathetic.

Oh, so, these things, then, are what you mean?

1) "recruiting" - I wans't aware this was discussed in stump speeches in the GOP. Please, do share any info you've got on it; preferably, at or above the county commissioner level.

2) "don't Ask, don't tell" do you mean? Take it up with Clinton and the Pentagon; their proposal, and, to the best of my knowledge, by no means a hot topic in the gop.

3) Civil unions. I addressed the fact that one can have reservations about the proposal without being prey to evil or bigotry. Wonder what the Rambam would have to say on it?

373 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:43:09pm

re: #371 LudwigVanQuixote

They are asking for a civil union and the same rights to openly serve in the military as anyone else.

They are denied on a basis of fear and loathing generated from ignorance and perpetuated by the political actions of the GOP.

Again, your laughable attempts to redefine yourself away from the facts makes you look stupid.


The GOP is not in the white house and does not control congress; yell at the Dems about it, if it bothers you so damned much.

Ludwig - my haircut makes me look stupid, not your bile-distorted reading of what I type here.

374 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:43:57pm

re: #372 Guanxi88

Oh, so, these things, then, are what you mean?

1) "recruiting" - I wans't aware this was discussed in stump speeches in the GOP. Please, do share any info you've got on it; preferably, at or above the county commissioner level.

2) "don't Ask, don't tell" do you mean? Take it up with Clinton and the Pentagon; their proposal, and, to the best of my knowledge, by no means a hot topic in the gop.

3) Civil unions. I addressed the fact that one can have reservations about the proposal without being prey to evil or bigotry. Wonder what the Rambam would have to say on it?

Hmm I am not Rambam. I do not agree with all of his views. He also believed that the sun orbited the Earth.

Cheap and stupid shot borne out of desperation on your part.

But really please continue with your silly attempts to either distract or spin out of basic facts that everyone knows in a pathetic and stupid way.

375 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:44:00pm

Okee dokee, LVQ, cliffy is extricating himself from this vile, evil conversation. I hope you have a good day (or night, don't know where you are). Either way, remember that everything will be ok

376 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:44:20pm

re: #370 Obdicut

Those people who are not ready for it are indeed against it because they fear, dislike, or are religiously prejudiced against homosexuals, in that they don't want them to have the same rights.

This isn't really hard to understand.

maybe I'm just too damned stupid to understand, so explain it to me this way:

There is NO opposition to same-sex unions not rooted in fear, dislike, or religious prejudice?

377 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:45:26pm

re: #373 Guanxi88

The GOP is not in the white house and does not control congress; yell at the Dems about it, if it bothers you so damned much.

Ludwig - my haircut makes me look stupid, not your bile-distorted reading of what I type here.

The GOP is the most vociferous opponent of letting gay people serve there is. It seems odd that you are trying to distance yourself from that.

Why would you try to weasel out of that fact...

Oh yes, it is because you are a weasel who got caught with too big a distortion of plain fact to hide.

378 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:45:30pm

re: #374 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmm I am not Rambam. I do not agree with all of his views. He also believed that the sun orbited the Earth.

Cheap and stupid shot borne out of desperation on your part.

But really please continue with your silly attempts to either distract or spin out of basic facts that everyone knows in a pathetic and stupid way.

Rambam was and is an authority on human nature and the laws of conduct, you howling, braying jackass. His views on astronomy have no bearing on that, as you know damned well yourself.

379 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:45:51pm

re: #376 Guanxi88

maybe I'm just too damned stupid to understand, so explain it to me this way:

There is NO opposition to same-sex unions not rooted in fear, dislike, or religious prejudice?

Correct.

How could what some other couple does possibly affect you?

380 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:45:53pm

re: #375 cliffster

Okee dokee, LVQ, cliffy is extricating himself from this vile, evil conversation. I hope you have a good day (or night, don't know where you are). Either way, remember that everything will be ok

-for doing your damndest to get the conversation to this point and then saying that.

That's just awful.

381 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:46:41pm

re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote

The GOP is the most vociferous opponent of letting gay people serve there is. It seems odd that you are trying to distance yourself from that.

Why would you try to weasel out of that fact...

Oh yes, it is because you are a weasel who got caught with too big a distortion of plain fact to hide.

And the GOP isn't in charge, so what does their opinion matter in this?

Look, I know you hate evil and have seen it in spades in the GOP, but at a certain point, man, you've got to stop blaming every damned crop failure and solar eclipse on them.

382 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:47:35pm

re: #378 Guanxi88

Rambam was and is an authority on human nature and the laws of conduct, you howling, braying jackass. His views on astronomy have no bearing on that, as you know damned well yourself.

And yet I do not always agree with him and you are debating with me and not him and moreover, bringing him into this was still a cheap shot borne of your desperation.

The only jackass would be you for trying to say such stupid things that any child knows are simply not the way things are.

Also, Rambam has quite a lot to say about speaking truthfully, to the point and without spin.

He was also very very cranky with moons - even more than me,

383 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:48:09pm

re: #381 Guanxi88

Of course it matters! Are you saying that evil isn't evil if the evil person is powerless? (or 'powerless', there's still plenty of influence they have even with their vaunted minority)

384 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:48:11pm

re: #379 LudwigVanQuixote

Correct.

How could what some other couple does possibly affect you?

It's the culture, you moron! This is a proposal to fundamentally remake a central institution of the culture by embarking on an expansion without precedent in our history. This isn't the sort of thing one does without thinking it over a bit, and many will find themselves opposed to it.

385 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:48:50pm

re: #380 windsagio

alrighty then.

{{windsagio}}

386 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:49:10pm

re: #384 Guanxi88

I was gonna reinsert myself and argue that point, but I don't think I can stop the death spiral even if I tried.

387 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:49:16pm

re: #382 LudwigVanQuixote

And yet I do not always agree with him and you are debating with me and not him and moreover, bringing him into this was still a cheap shot borne of your desperation.

The only jackass would be you for trying to say such stupid things that any child knows are simply not the way things are.

Also, Rambam has quite a lot to say about speaking truthfully, to the point and without spin.

He was also very very cranky with moons - even more than me,

The rambam also has a lot to say about moderation, self-control, and a whole host of topics on which you would be wise to be more fully informed.

388 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:51:00pm

re: #384 Guanxi88

It's the culture, you moron! This is a proposal to fundamentally remake a central institution of the culture by embarking on an expansion without precedent in our history. This isn't the sort of thing one does without thinking it over a bit, and many will find themselves opposed to it.

Umm no it is the proposal to allow people who have been doing this since ever to have the same legal rights as everyone else. no one is talking about forcing religious groups to give them the same marriage ceremony - unless a certain religious group chooses to. We are talking about equal rights for something that is not new. It is not as if gay people never existed until now.

What you wrote is stupid beyond measure and it does show your fear and ignorance in spades. It makes you a fool. But then again given your views on things like blood gold, I am not surprised. And yes I am calling you a standard racist homophobic GOP troll who is so blind to his own hatefulness he does not even see it.

389 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:52:28pm

re: #387 Guanxi88

The rambam also has a lot to say about moderation, self-control, and a whole host of topics on which you would be wise to be more fully informed.

And yest you are not debating him you are debating me, and in actuality if you have ever read Guide for the Perplexed, you would find that his commentary on the semantic games of lesser intellects (that would be you in spades) is quite a lot more harsh then mine. He particularly hates it when people try to deflect the topic after losing their main point.

390 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:54:21pm

I'm having trouble getting my head wrapped around that. I guess windsagio would prefer that I storm off angrily, shouting "damn you LVQ, damn you damn you damn you!!!". Heh

391 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:55:36pm

re: #376 Guanxi88

maybe I'm just too damned stupid to understand, so explain it to me this way:

There is NO opposition to same-sex unions not rooted in fear, dislike, or religious prejudice?

No. There are people who are apathetic about it, but anyone opposing it is doing so out of a desire for gays to not enjoy the same right they do.

It's pretty much A=A.

If someone opposes gay marriage on the grounds that we should have civil unions for everyone, that's entirely different than just opposing gay marriage.

But if someone objects to gay partners having the exact same rights as straight couples, then yes, obviously they are in some way, from some cause, under the impression that it is somehow just to deny gays their rights.

392 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:57:06pm

re: #391 Obdicut

No. There are people who are apathetic about it, but anyone opposing it is doing so out of a desire for gays to not enjoy the same right they do.

It's pretty much A=A.

If someone opposes gay marriage on the grounds that we should have civil unions for everyone, that's entirely different than just opposing gay marriage.

But if someone objects to gay partners having the exact same rights as straight couples, then yes, obviously they are in some way, from some cause, under the impression that it is somehow just to deny gays their rights.

They hate it when you oppress them with facts and logic.

393 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:11:34pm

re: #354 LudwigVanQuixote

So how about facts and data rather than opinions. That is how science is done.

What exactly have I ever said about AGW that was over the top or unsupported - and here is the clincher kiddo, you have to bring evidence of your own to make a case for it scientifically, because you just being pissed at me does not make for a science argument.

your STYLE is over the top ... guys like you just don't get it. your social skills prevent your best points (and you do have some) from getting through. in short, your credibility is compromised. sorry to break that to ya' dude.

394 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:15:26pm

re: #393 _RememberTonyC

your STYLE is over the top ... guys like you just don't get it. your social skills prevent your best points (and you do have some) from getting through. in short, your credibility is compromised. sorry to break that to ya' dude.

So how about talking the science? My style is to bring facts and data to support my claims. That is what scientists do. The fact that those claims are alarming is beside the point.

The fact that people are too stupid to see that cause and effect really happens is a different point entirely.

395 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:20:47pm

re: #394 LudwigVanQuixote

So how about talking the science? My style is to bring facts and data to support my claims. That is what scientists do. The fact that those claims are alarming is beside the point.

The fact that people are too stupid to see that cause and effect really happens is a different point entirely.


I trust the CW on the basic science and believe climate change is real. I am NOT a scientist. I have interests in other areas. I try not to label people and I try to converse as an adult. Hasta La Vista.

396 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:24:00pm

re: #361 Obdicut

That's the current most probable estimate, based on the best science available to us.

Most of those people will be in the developing world, but we'll suffer too.

That is, if it's not a mass-species die-off.

Yay.

I say it is a wildly speculative 100 year 8.6 degree doomsday forecast which LVQ was peddling as a virtual certainty. I have done some reading on this but in response to his challenge I asked that he provide the proof.

397 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:25:10pm

re: #396 Spare O'Lake

Spare, he's 'proved' that was the moderate estimate long ago. Now, with methane outgassing, that may be a very rosy scenario.

398 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:28:32pm

re: #396 Spare O'Lake

Best estimate for a "low scenario"[9] is 1.8 °C with a likely range of 1.1 to 2.9 °C (3.2 °F with a likely range of 2.0 to 5.2 °F)
Best estimate for a "high scenario"[10] is 4.0 °C with a likely range of 2.4 to 6.4 °C (7.2 °F with a likely range of 4.3 to 11.5 °F)

8.6 is well within the 'high' scenario, which, since the IPCC was significantly watered down, was the scientists 'moderate'. That is now pretty much out the window, because of the seabed methane, which is absolutely nightmarish.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

399 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:12:00pm

re: #360 LudwigVanQuixote

My definition of reason differs from yours. I try to look at people as individuals and treat them with respect until such point as they prove that they individually deserve none. Rush has done so amply well, as have you. You are both bombasts.

So I am going to agree that we disagree and move on.

400 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:14:03pm

re: #380 windsagio

-for doing your damndest to get the conversation to this point and then saying that.

That's just awful.

Yep. Well said.

401 windsagio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:38:56pm

re: #400 Jimmah

Since this is a dead thread, and I know you won't take it seriously, theres an awesome insult I want to throw out, so this is a safe place.

ready?

Eat a bag of Baby Dicks, motherfucker!

Thank you!

402 Sloppy  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:51:14pm

Was Beck-Massa the kind of thing Al Gore had in mind when he invented the Internet?

403 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:18:04pm

re: #396 Spare O'Lake

Spare must you start as a troll. Again?

I am too tired to repost again and again tonight. Why not take the time to contemplate what massive food shortage + massive loss of fresh water + spread of contagion + war over diminishing resources + billions of refugees means?

OK, try it. I know I posted several papers on the crop failure aspect alone. IF the US loses 60-90% of its food production and we are one of the biggest food suppliers to the world, what does that do?

404 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:29:34pm

re: #215 Varek Raith

Burying ones head in the sand is doing something, no?

I am so sorry I missed that Varek. Would that I had a thousand updings to give that.

405 Cobdenite  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:41:04pm

"Massa had said that the allegations were limited to his use of “salty language” with his staff."

I imagine that wasn't the only thing that tasted salty in his mouth.


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