TwitterFacebook

What’s This Weird Hunk of Metal We Just Found on Mars?

Metallic
Science • Views: 24,783
Click to enlarge

We have another Martian Mystery Object — this one a thing that looks suspiciously like a hunk of metal. Curiosity detected it, through a high-res image taken from its Mastcam, on Sol 173 (January 30 in Earth days). Universe Today calls the object “a small metallic-looking protuberance” — it resembles a thick, bent nail, sticking out of the Martian surface — and it is visible in part because it projects a tiny little shadow on the rock below.

More: Um, What’s This Weird Hunk of Metal We Just Found on Mars? - Megan Garber - the Atlantic

UPDATE at 2/7/13 2:57:59 pm

For the heck of it, and because it’s a slow news day, I imported the original full-sized photo into Fireworks CS6, clipped out the metallic object, zoomed way in using the Bicubic smoothing algorithm, and here’s the result:

Click to enlarge

Jump to bottom

252 comments

1 Locker  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:42:28pm

Empty can of Red Bull?

You know they’re always hiring those daredevil guys to promote their product. Maybe Brian Deegan jumped his 125cc over the moon, stopped on Mars to drink a Red Bull, then back flipped down to California.

2 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:42:54pm

HITLER!

3 jaunte  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:44:24pm

0.5 cm iron meteorite splinter?

4 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:45:03pm

Sooner or later we’re going to find an amazing naturally-occurring “Kilroy”.

5 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:48:28pm

re: #3 jaunte

0.5 cm iron meteorite splinter?

Recently-shattered, then. Still pretty shiny. Could be a frag from the landing sequence gyrations. If NASA cares, they’ll go look.

7 William of Orange  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:51:10pm
8 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:51:28pm

It’s rather odd for a loose object to happen to sit in such an up-and-down orientation. Makes it look more like a penetrating inclusion in the rock itself, rather than a lump of stuff just sitting there.

9 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:51:50pm

For what it’s worth, here it is zoomed way in with a Bicubic smoothing algorithm:

Image: ZZ3ACB8F3C.jpg

10 Tigger2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:51:51pm

Looks like we have proof Gingrich has decided to skip the moon and make a permanent colony on mars instead.

11 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:52:00pm

I think it’s just slightly shiny rock.

12 thedopefishlives  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:52:10pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

For what it’s worth, here it is zoomed way in with a Bicubic smoothing algorithm:

Image: ZZ3ACB8F3C.jpg

So THAT’S where I left it.

13 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:52:15pm

Not metal. It’s one of these guys.

14 thedopefishlives  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:53:28pm

re: #5 Decatur Deb

Recently-shattered, then. Still pretty shiny. Could be a frag from the landing sequence gyrations. If NASA cares, they’ll go look.

They’re geeks, they’re drawn to shiny like mosquitos to a bug zapper. I have no doubt we’ll get an up-close-and-personal examination of this shiny object.

15 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:53:47pm

I’m withholding any guesses until Varek gets in. He usually cleans up after himself, but we’ll see.

16 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:55:28pm

re: #13 wrenchwench

Not metal. It’s one of these guys.

Are we getting comments from a Lizard with a Mars IP address?

17 thedopefishlives  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:55:49pm

re: #16 Decatur Deb

Are we getting comments from a Lizard with a Mars IP address?

On Mars, we use IPv6.

18 jaunte  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:56:19pm
19 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:56:20pm

A political test emerges in Georgia

It’s hard to overstate just how unusual Paul Broun really is. Words like “crazy” and “extreme” are used with some frequency to describe politicians on the fringes of modern American thought, but even among the true cranks, Broun is a unique individual.

There’s been an unmistakable push of late to improve the Republican Party’s electoral prospects, helping stronger candidates win primaries and purge the party of “cranks, haters and bigots.”

And if those efforts have any meaning at all, Paul Broun has to be exactly the kind of candidate who’s deemed wholly unacceptable by sane elements of the Republican Party.

So, will they? Shouldn’t Broun be Exhibit A in the category of “unacceptable GOP candidates”?

20 bubba zanetti  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:57:35pm

Definitely off of a 1964 Chevy Malibu.

21 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 2:59:40pm

Damn
After fatwas, security hiked for Egypt opposition

One hardline Muslim cleric on an Egyptian TV station justified sexual assaults on women protesters. Others issued religious edicts saying opposition leaders must be killed. Television screeds by ultraconservative sheiks are raising fears of assassinations here a day after a top anti-Islamist politician was gunned down in Tunisia.

Egyptian security officials on Thursday beefed up security around the homes of Egypt’s main opposition politicians, citing the possibility of a Tunisia-type killing after the edicts, or fatwas. The office of Islamist President Mohammed Morsi and his prime minister denounced the edicts and the top prosecutor began an investigation into one of the clerics.

Two well-known ultraconservative clerics sparked an uproar with their edicts several days ago saying Shariah, or Islamic law, required the killing of opposition figures. A third fanned the flames by justifying a string of mob sexual assaults on women protesters in Cairo’s Tahrir Square.

“They are going there to get raped,” cleric Ahmed Mohammed Abdullah said, depicting them as loose women. He spoke of their curly hair, saying “these are devils named women … They speak with no femininity, no morals, no fear … Learn from Muslim women, be Muslims.”

22 RadicalModerate  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:00:43pm

Oh hell, it’s Megatron!

23 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:01:05pm

It’s part of the handle of a DHARMA Initiative station. Down below, some poor Martian has to enter numbers into an old VT-110 terminal every 108 minutes, or else.

24 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:04:26pm

re: #19 Kragar

A political test emerges in Georgia

Well, he should be. The problem is that depending on who else actually enters he might be exhibit C, D, or even Z.

Yes, that’s a bit of an exaggeration. But Price, Kingston, Graves, and Handel are all in competition for exhibit A if they run.

25 RadicalModerate  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:08:58pm

re: #19 Kragar

A political test emerges in Georgia

I don’t suppose that Max Cleland is up for reclaiming his old Senatorial seat is he?

26 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:15:36pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

Upon further review, I am convinced that is a part of Bomb 20.

27 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:16:47pm

re: #5 Decatur Deb

Recently-shattered, then. Still pretty shiny.

It’s Mars, virtually no oxygen or water vapor to facilitate corrosion.

With no life to speak of what’s weird is that we haven’t yet seen more surface metallic deposits.

28 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:18:08pm

Catholic Bishops: New Contraception Mandate Rules Not Good Enough

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops on Thursday rejected the Obama administration’s new proposed rules governing the contraception coverage mandate as insufficient to protect the religious liberty of faith organization and private businesses owners.

Dear Bishops, go fuck yourselves.

29 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:19:16pm

re: #28 Kragar

Catholic Bishops: New Contraception Mandate Rules Not Good Enough

Dear Bishops, go fuck yourselves.

A-fuckin’-men.

30 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:21:37pm

re: #28 Kragar

Catholic Bishops: New Contraception Mandate Rules Not Good Enough

Dear Bishops, go fuck yourselves.

With emphasis on the fucking.

31 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:22:11pm

Damn it.

I was wondering what happened to my drill chuck.

No wait, it’s the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator.

32 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:22:53pm

re: #31 lawhawk

Damn it.

I was wondering what happened to my drill chuck.

No wait, it’s the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator.

Where was the kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering kaboom.

33 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:32:24pm

Egypt’s Rape Culture: Most Sexual Assaults Go Unpunished As Cleric Claims Women ‘Want To Be Raped’

A prominent Egyptian Salafi preacher justified sexual assaults again female protesters, claiming women “are going to Tahrir Square because they want to be raped” in a video posted online Wednesday. The preacher, Ahmad Mahmoud Abdullah (also known as “Abu Islam”) is the owner of a private television channel called “al-Ummah” and has previously been accused of defaming Christianity for comments made to the press and destroying bibles in front of the U.S. embassy.

The same day as his comments were posted, women protested against sexual assault in Egypt and Amnesty International released a briefing highlighting sexual violence against female protesters in Egypt,

34 thedopefishlives  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:33:39pm

re: #31 lawhawk

Damn it.

I was wondering what happened to my drill chuck.

No wait, it’s the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator.

It’s a shard of the drill from the movie Armageddon. That was real, don’tcha know. Big NASA is covering up our close encounter with certain death./

35 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:34:11pm

re: #27 goddamnedfrank

It’s Mars, virtually no oxygen or water vapor to facilitate corrosion.

With no life to speak of what’s weird is that we haven’t yet seen more surface metallic deposits.

I’m an anthro. We count ‘recents’ in millenia.

36 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:34:25pm

re: #33 Kragar

Most sexual assaults, and rapes, go unpunished in the US too. I’m not taking away from the awfulness of Egypt’s situation, but that headline makes it sound like that’s unusual.

38 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:38:19pm

re: #33 Kragar

I just looked into that too. So far I’ve suspicious the allegations that the sexual assaults were the work of Islamists but I suspect this has been quietly endorsed by some clerics for a while now. It’s not a good sign that they now feel comfortable enough to start endorsing rape and assassinations on TV.
I’m not sure if the opposition has enough clout to overthrow the Muslim Bros but the whole revolution needs to be done over again. New constitution and everything.

39 Dizzy  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:39:44pm

I think they’ve found part of a Rockwell automation retro-encabulator.

40 Amory Blaine  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:48:45pm

A metal lizard. Sunning itself on a rock.

41 William of Orange  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:53:43pm

Serious dickism from Tel Aviv city officials. Turning a woman into a criminal within 5 minutes. Read it to believe it. (Google cache)

The Tel Aviv municipality changed a legal parking spot into a handicapped parking spot while a local woman’s car was parked there and then towed the car for parking illegally without a handicapped permit.

The owner of the car, Hila Ben Baruch, threatened to sue the city after being told Sunday she had to pay a NIS 1,000 fine and cover the NIS 350 cost of towing before she could retrieve her vehicle. Fortunately for her, a surveillance camera documented the entire incident.

The video, which Ben Baruch posted on Facebook Monday night, along with her description of what happened, has been shared more than 9,000 times. She earned an apology from city hall, which canceled the fine and towing fee when she picked her car up Monday night.

“You just see it and can’t believe it,” Ben Baruch wrote when she posted the video, which she got from an office building across the street that has a surveillance camera trained on the parking lot.

42 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:01:40pm

re: #41 William of Orange

Serious dickism from Tel Aviv city officials. Turning a woman into a criminal within 5 minutes. Read it to believe it. (Google cache)

I saw something like that in Pittsburgh in the mid 1980s. City posted a bunch of spots on a street as handicapped and/or permit parking only in the morning. Then came through a few hours later and ticketed all the cars still parked there. Since the spots were generally used by students commuting into the area to attend a local university they did not revisit their vehicles during the day and got a wonderful surprise later in the afternoon. No one was towed to my knowledge though.

43 efuseakay  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:04:03pm

It’s Megatron’s dingy.

44 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:07:24pm

It’s a tiny metal statue of the Geico gecko, because 15 minutes can save you 15% or more on your Mars orbiter insurance.

45 thedopefishlives  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:10:30pm

re: #44 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

It’s a tiny metal statue of the Geico gecko, because 15 minutes can save you 15% or more on your Mars orbiter insurance.

Orbiters are easy on insurance, but I’d love to see the rates on one of those rovers.

46 thedopefishlives  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:11:35pm

re: #45 Ghost of a Dopefish

It just wants to come home.

47 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:11:46pm

Clearly a remnant of the lost civilizations of Barsoom.

48 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:12:18pm

WALL-E got buried. Dig him out quick!

49 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:12:44pm

Per the metallic looking rock on Mars - what information is there on the geologic history of the rocks there? (arelogic history?)

Depending on that one guess is that it could be some sort of intrusion or porphyritic rock into the normal bedding rock that has been at least partially weathered out. It appears that most of the Martian surface rocks are heavily weathered basalts.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

50 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:14:10pm

I can’t believe how incredibly naive some of my fellow Americans have become about al-Qaeda.

51 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:33:36pm

Update…They found shithead’s pickup in the mountains.

LOS ANGELES — An ex-Los Angeles police officer who authorities say went on a deadly shooting rampage to punish those he blamed for his firing killed three people, setting off a manhunt that stirred fear across several states and Mexico.

The search for Christopher Dorner focused late Thursday on Big Bear Lake, about 80 miles east of Los Angeles, where police found a burned-out pickup truck that belonged to Christopher Dorner. San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon said officers were going door to door looking for him.

52 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:34:01pm

re: #46 Ghost of a Dopefish

It just wants to come home.

I feel like such a twit when that cartoon makes me sad.

53 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:35:04pm

Obviously this has been put there by Satan to fool the non-believers into believing in science.

54 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:35:36pm

re: #52 wrenchwench

I feel like such a twit when that cartoon makes me sad.

I want to cry for poor Spirit after reading that. :(

55 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:37:18pm

re: #51 NJDhockeyfan

I hope they are also looking for stolen vehicles in the area as well. If he is a well trained as he claims, dumping the truck and getting another ride would be a high priority objective.

56 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:37:50pm

re: #53 Ghost of Tom Joad

Obviously this has been put there by Satan to fool the non-believers into believing in science.

It’s a fossil of a metallic unipod. They all fell off of Noah’s Ark, and some were washed to Mars by the Great Flood.

57 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:39:02pm

re: #51 NJDhockeyfan

Update…They found shithead’s pickup in the mountains.

Upding for using the Fresno Bee.

:)

58 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:39:12pm

It’s a Uranium PU-36 Explosive Space Modulator

59 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:40:47pm

re: #33 Kragar

Egypt’s Rape Culture: Most Sexual Assaults Go Unpunished As Cleric Claims Women ‘Want To Be Raped’

Well, at least we know that the women-hating is the same ‘round the world.

60 Mattand  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:42:22pm
61 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:45:27pm

Because life for women in the United States is just like life for women in Egypt.

//

62 steve_davis  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:46:09pm

I think the most entertaining possibility would be if it turned out to be some small part from a previous Mars expedition that failed and disintegrated, mostly, on entry. I’m just kind of assuming that somebody at JPL has already figured out whether something like that could be even a remote possibility, based on where previous stuff might have burned up coming in.

63 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:48:56pm

re: #60 Mattand

Hey! Egypt has Republicans, too!

If it weren’t for pesky realities of mideast politics like oil and Israel, Al-Qaeda and the US religious right could mutually bond over their hatred of women, gays, and progress.

The ‘kill the gays’ legislative effort in Uganda is a case in point.

64 Mattand  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:50:37pm

re: #63 EPR-radar

If it weren’t for pesky realities of mideast politics like oil and Israel, Al-Qaeda and the US religious right could mutually bond over their hatred of women, gays, and progress.

The ‘kill the gays’ legislative effort in Uganda is a case in point.

I first learned about that from Rachel Maddow.

More proof she’s no different than Glenn Beck. ///

66 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:52:01pm

re: #63 EPR-radar

If it weren’t for pesky realities of mideast politics like oil and Israel, Al-Qaeda and the US religious right could mutually bond over their hatred of women, gays, and progress.

The ‘kill the gays’ legislative effort in Uganda is a case in point.

The religions aren’t that different. Change the name of the invisible sky-wizard and a few prophets, and you wouldn’t know the difference. American Taliban, such as it is.

67 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:52:34pm

re: #64 Mattand

I first learned about that from Rachel Maddow.

More proof she’s no different than Glenn Beck. ///

Of course Rachel Maddow and Glenn Beck are equivalent. Both are English-speaking bipeds.

68 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:52:48pm

re: #66 Ghost of Tom Joad

The religions aren’t that different. Change the name of the invisible sky-wizard and a few prophets, and you wouldn’t know the difference. American Taliban, such as it is.

You should try living in Pakistan then.

69 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:54:03pm

Because people are sentenced to death or prison for blasphemy in the USA.

//

70 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:54:28pm

it’s a bong. a martian bong

71 thedopefishlives  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:54:40pm

re: #69 Gus

Because people are sentenced to death or prison for blasphemy in the USA.

//

They’re sent to the Twitter gulag, isn’t that the same thing?

///

72 Skeetghazi  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:55:59pm

Late to thread - do we know the size of this metallic thingy?

73 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:57:49pm

There is some weirdness going on Teh Interwebz. A bunch of different news sites fail to load and throw a Facebook redirect error. Facebook says they are trying to “fix” the problem (of Facebook tracking you on every page you visit that isn’t Facebook).

74 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:57:51pm

re: #72 Skeetghazi

Late to thread - do we know the size of this metallic thingy?

Half a cm high or so.

75 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:59:20pm

Pink moonbats interrupted the John Brennan nomination hearing today.

Code Pink does it again: DiFi suspends hearing as they protest CIA nominee John Brennan

Code Pink’s Medea Benjamin and her forces of civil disobedience have racked up a pretty solid record of grabbing headlines and disrupting major news events in Washington and beyond — and their latest star moment came at the John Brennan nomination hearings Thursday.

The CIA nominee had just begun his opening statements in Washington before the Senate Intelligence Committee when the insiders from San Francisco-based Code Pink — the women’s grassroots action network — popped up with very loud protests about Brennan and his support for drones.
Benjamin’s outspoken opposition to drones have been reflected in her new book, “Drone Warfare: Killing by Remote Control.”

She held up a sign saying “Drones Make Enemies” as the group was sternly admonished by U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein of California — who suspended the hearing until the women protesters could be dragged out.

76 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 4:59:24pm

re: #72 Skeetghazi

Teeny. Under a half inch. Maybe it’s a button. A button which must never ever be pressed.

77 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:00:30pm

re: #73 Vicious Babushka

There is some weirdness going on Teh Interwebz. A bunch of different news sites fail to load and throw a Facebook redirect error. Facebook says they are trying to “fix” the problem (of Facebook tracking you on every page you visit that isn’t Facebook).

I got that when checking out the remaining balance on my Starbucks card. Temporarily fixed it by logging out of Facebook. Really annoying and disturbing though.

78 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:03:27pm

re: #68 Gus

You should try living in Pakistan then.

I was going to stay out of this but that made me lol

79 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:03:46pm

re: #76 Political Atheist

Teeny. Under a half inch. Maybe it’s a button. A button which must never ever be pressed.

Oh sure, say that. Now the kender is going to have to go and press it.

80 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:04:34pm

re: #68 Gus

You should try living in Pakistan then.

There’s the difference. We don’t let them dictate (well, to a certain extent) policy in this country, whereas other countries allow everything to be based by those religious beliefs. It’d be like our government being run by Fischer or Robertson.

81 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:04:45pm

re: #75 NJDhockeyfan

Pink moonbats interrupted the John Brennan nomination hearing today.

Code Pink does it again: DiFi suspends hearing as they protest CIA nominee John Brennan

Another in and endless stupid temper tantrums.

82 Skeetghazi  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:06:26pm

re: #74 Feline Fearless Leader

Half a cm high or so.

Thanks. I’m thinking turd remnant.

83 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:07:22pm

re: #80 Ghost of Tom Joad

There’s the difference. We don’t let them dictate (well, to a certain extent) policy in this country, whereas other countries allow everything to be based by those religious beliefs. It’d be like our government being run by Fischer or Robertson.

But it’s not and will undoubtedly never will be. It’s not about what if but what is.

84 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:07:23pm

There’s a lot of hyperventilating on the subject, but it’s a perfectly valid and even necessary debate to discuss the targeted killing program and what the limits of the executive branch are.

It would be nice to tone down the hysteria and talk about this issue with the seriousness it deserves, but that’s not what we do these days.

85 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:07:56pm

North Dakota Senate approves ‘fetal personhood’ amendment

The Senate of North Dakota approved a measure on Thursday that would outlaw abortion by defining a fetus as a person.

“North Dakota is leading the way for equal rights and protections for all human beings,” Jennifer Mason, spokesperson for Personhood USA, said. “After the struggles to pass life-affirming amendments in the Senate in the past four years, we are very pleased that the North Dakota Senate has chosen to protect all living human beings. This is a historic day in North Dakota.”

The proposed amendment to the Constitution of North Dakota states, “the inalienable right to life of every human being at any stage of development must be recognized and protected.”

The bill still needs to be passed in the state’s House and ratified by voters during the general election in 2014. Similar proposed amendments in Colorado, Ohio, Mississippi, and Oklahoma have been rejected in recent years.

86 b_sharp  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:08:35pm

re: #68 Gus

You should try living in Pakistan then.

Christianity already went through its Taliban phase, although the Dominionists want that time back.

87 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:10:23pm

re: #84 Charles Johnson

There’s a lot of hyperventilating on the subject, but it’s a perfectly valid and even necessary debate to discuss the targeted killing program and what the limits of the executive branch are.

It would be nice to tone down the hysteria and talk about this issue with the seriousness it deserves, but that’s not what we do these days.

I can see why it would be necessary in dealing with international terrorists, but it still needs some clarifications and should be kept under close scrutiny and oversight. It should be a last resort, not a “go to” solution.

88 Gus  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:10:38pm

re: #86 b_sharp

Christianity already went through its Taliban phase, although the Dominionists want that time back.

Sure, we can all pick and choose by going back in history. That won’t help the women of Egypt though. “Oh yeah! Things are just as bad here!” Um, no.

89 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:10:53pm

re: #84 Charles Johnson

There’s a lot of hyperventilating on the subject, but it’s a perfectly valid and even necessary debate to discuss the targeted killing program and what the limits of the executive branch are.

It would be nice to tone down the hysteria and talk about this issue with the seriousness it deserves, but that’s not what we do these days.

Agreed. It’s an interesting subject that deserves serious attention but that’s not going to happen. Media coverage on the memos has been shit but the public wouldn’t pay any attention to a substantive discussion. We get what we deserve.

90 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:17:29pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Agreed. It’s an interesting subject that deserves serious attention but that’s not going to happen. Media coverage on the memos has been shit but the public wouldn’t pay any attention to a substantive discussion. We get what we deserve.

One of my biggest problems with the Democrats these days is that their concerns about extraordinary Executive branch power have largely disappeared since Jan 2009.

It is most unfortunate for this issue to become a political football.

91 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:18:15pm

re: #87 Kragar

I can see why it would be necessary in dealing with international terrorists, but it still needs some clarifications and should be kept under close scrutiny and oversight. It should be a last resort, not a “go to” solution.

Question is; are these points not valid now?

92 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:19:15pm

The #Dorner hashtag is currently making #tgdn look like an eloquent and jovial discussion between Stephen Fry and James Lipton.

It’s like all the worst idiots from #tgdn collided with the all the people who left 4chan because they don’t think it’s terrible enough.

93 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:19:35pm

re: #88 Gus

Sure, we can all pick and choose by going back in history. That won’t help the women of Egypt though. “Oh yeah! Things are just as bad here!” Um, no.

Nobody said things were just as bad here. Obdicut said that “Most sexual assaults, and rapes, go unpunished in the US too,” which is true.

94 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:21:38pm

re: #84 Charles Johnson

And a recent change in policy deserves some positive attention. We now have more transparency on the policy. IMO as we must have for credibility in the global view.

95 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:25:13pm

re: #83 Gus

But it’s not and will undoubtedly never will be. It’s not about what if but what is.

My heart goes out to the women in Egypt dealing with stuff like this.

Raping women in Tahrir NOT ‘red line’: Egyptian preacher Abu Islam

An Egyptian Salafi preacher said raping and sexually harassing women protesters in Cairo’s Tahrir Square is justified, calling them “crusaders” who “have no shame, no fear and not even feminism.”

In an online video posted Wednesday, Ahmad Mahmoud Abdullah, known as “Abu Islam” and owner of the private television channel of “al-Ummah,” said these women are no red line.

“They tell you women are a red line. They tell you that naked women — who are going to Tahrir Square because they want to be raped — are a red line! And they ask Mursi and the Brotherhood to leave power!,” he said.

Abu Islam added that these women activists are going to Tahrir Square not to protest but to be sexually abused because they had wanted to be raped.

96 dragonfire1981  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:28:40pm
97 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:30:46pm

Hit the post button early.

Anyway, we have members of one of our two national parties submitting bills that would subject women to invasive ultrasounds before they can have an abortion, and who even downplay the likelihood or dismiss entirely the possibility of rape resultant pregnancies. Yes, women have better rights here than in most of the Middle East, that’s not really cause to pretend that we’ve in any way solved, or even begun to solve the problem of rape and sexual assault.

re: #94 Political Atheist

And a recent change in policy deserves some positive attention. We now have more transparency on the policy. IMO as we must have for credibility in the global view.

The Justice department memo categorically rules out a Judicial Branch role in the process. Transparency is kind of an illusion when the policy is carried out without even the potential for oversight. Leadership integrity doesn’t last long in a vacuum, it needs some kind of constant pressure to maintain itself.

Fish rot from the head on down.

98 JeffFX  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:32:56pm

There’s a Dan Rather AMA thread going on at Reddit in which he claims his document was never debunked, someone claims the freepers exposed it, and Charles gets mentioned.

99 thedopefishlives  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:33:24pm

re: #98 JeffFX

There’s a Dan Rather AMA thread going on at Reddit in which he claims his document was never debunked, someone claims the freepers exposed it, and Charles gets mentioned.

Time to dust off the Throbbing Memo (tm)!

100 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:33:30pm

re: #88 Gus

Sure, we can all pick and choose by going back in history. That won’t help the women of Egypt though. “Oh yeah! Things are just as bad here!” Um, no.

They’re not just as bad here. They’re a lot better. They need to be even better, and we shouldn’t ever feel good about ourselves just by comparison to fucked-up places. And we are actively moving backwards on women’s rights in many areas.

101 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:33:54pm

re: #97 goddamnedfrank


The Justice department memo categorically rules out a Judicial Branch role in the process. Transparency is kind of an illusion when the policy is carried out without even the potential for oversight. Leadership integrity doesn’t last long in a vacuum, it needs some kind of constant pressure to maintain itself.

Fish rot from the head on down.

QFT. Lack of judicial oversight makes this a non-starter, IMO. We have centuries of history to tell us exactly what happens when an unaccountable agency gets into the business of killing inconvenient people.

102 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:33:59pm

re: #98 JeffFX

There’s a Dan Rather AMA thread going on at Reddit in which he claims his document was never debunked, someone claims the freepers exposed it, and Charles gets mentioned.

That’s so 2004.

103 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:35:00pm
104 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:35:02pm

re: #100 Obdicut

Let’s make no mistake.

If they could, these Hard-Right Theocrats here would turn us in MB Egypt or the current form of Iran. Or Saudi.

You just have to push them hard enough to cause them to blurt it out.

105 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:35:35pm

How difficult would it have been for the Administration to seek the regulatory changes necessary to go to court and strip Anwar al-Aulaqi of his citizenship before targeting him for an extrajudicial assassination?

Apparently we’re never going to find out.

106 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:37:54pm

re: #104 ProBosniaLiberal

Let’s make no mistake.

If they could, these Hard-Right Theocrats here would turn us in MB Egypt or the current form of Iran. Or Saudi.

You just have to push them hard enough to cause them to blurt it out.

It would take a while. First would come the abortion bans. Then, when there is widespread resistance to the abortion bans, all of the apparatus of a repressive theocracy would be installed ‘to save the babies’.

107 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:38:05pm

re: #98 JeffFX

There’s a Dan Rather AMA thread going on at Reddit in which he claims his document was never debunked, someone claims the freepers exposed it, and Charles gets mentioned.

Yes, Dan Rather is still trying to get people to believe there’s some question about whether they were fakes. It’s kind of tragic in a way to see someone who really did do some good journalism in his time go down in flames clinging to a falsehood, because his ego just won’t let him admit a mistake.

108 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:38:28pm

*FACE PALM*

109 JeffFX  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:40:02pm

re: #107 Charles Johnson

Yes, Dan Rather is still trying to get people to believe there’s some question about whether they were fakes. It’s kind of tragic in a way to see someone who really did do some good journalism in his time go down in flames clinging to a falsehood, because his ego just won’t let him admit a mistake.

I think it’s really sad, and really wish he’d let it go, because I like the man.

110 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:40:48pm

Manhunt: CNN’s Anderson Cooper says he got package from fugitive

CNN newsman Anderson Cooper received a package thought to be from the ex-Los Angeles police officer-turned fugitive Christopher Dorner a week before the massive manhunt that has gripped Southern California.

“Learned today suspect Christopher Dorner sent me a parcel at CNN. Inside was a note, DVD, and a coin shot thru with bullet holes,” Cooper said in a Twitter message Thursday.

Cooper was one of several news personalities praised in the lengthy manifesto that authorities said was published on what they believe is Dorner’s Facebook page. The manifesto encouraged a return of a national ban on assault rifles and complimented First Lady Michelle Obama on her new bangs.

111 darthstar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:40:49pm

Good news in the manhunt…police can stop shooting up Nissans, Toyotas and Hondas.

[Link: www.scpr.org…]

112 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:40:55pm

re: #108 Vicious Babushka

*FACE PALM*

I thought it was going to be something about Dornan stealing the plot from umpteen action movies where the hero has discovered a secret that will blow a conspiracy wide open and is on the run from the authorities while he gains time and finds the evidence that will exonerate him.
////

113 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:41:59pm

re: #107 Charles Johnson

Yes, Dan Rather is still trying to get people to believe there’s some question about whether they were fakes. It’s kind of tragic in a way to see someone who really did do some good journalism in his time go down in flames clinging to a falsehood, because his ego just won’t let him admit a mistake.

He very much wanted the memos to be genuine. Wish fulfillment fantasies aren’t just for wing nuts.

I still tend to think the memos were constructed as a trap for the media to fall into, to serve as an insurance policy against W’s days in the TANG being used against him.

114 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:42:00pm

New ‘Star Trek Into Darkness’ pics hint at villain’s possible agenda … and identity

The cover of the February 15th issue of the magazine has been revealed, titled “Voyage Into the New ‘Star Trek’” and featuring a shot of Cumberbatch and Chris Pine’s Captain Kirk (well, one of the covers, anyway — an alternate features Kirk and Zachary Quinto’s Spock). Now, this may not be anything more than just a reference to a rumor that refuses to die, but the companion headline to the issue on EW’s Back Issues store says “Voyage Into the New ‘Star Trek’ Kirk & Khan.”

KHAAAAAAAANNN!!

Did EW give away a major secret, or was it a simple mistake (or was someone just sick of typing “Cumberbatch”)?

115 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:42:03pm

re: #109 JeffFX

I think it’s really sad, and really wish he’d let it go, because I like the man.

The documents weren’t just faked, they were OBVIOUSLY faked by someone who barely tried to hide it. I knew they were fakes the very instant I laid eyes on them.

116 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:42:06pm

re: #108 Vicious Babushka

*FACE PALM*

Mass shooter, spree killer, what’s the difference?
//

117 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:42:49pm

OT: but there was a coffee discussion earlier today. Reminded me of a set of recurring bits by some disc jockeys in Pittsburgh. And actually found an appropriate one on You Tube.

Bust Ass - the blend with nine times the caffeine of regular blends.

118 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:44:03pm

IT’S LIKE A REAL LIFE NCIS-LOS ANGELES EPISODE!1! HE EVEN LOOKS LIKE LL COOL J!1!

119 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:44:04pm

For a second let’s pretend that Mitt Romney had won the election and inherited the targeted killing program with its upgraded ability to strike citizens without one iota of Judicial Branch involvement.

How comfortable are you with that scenario? Well, there’s no guarantee that the next President is going to responsibly administrate that policy, but since there’s no oversight built in to it they’re going to be able to take the precedent and run with it.

120 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:45:13pm

re: #113 EPR-radar

He very much wanted the memos to be genuine. Wish fulfillment fantasies aren’t just for wing nuts.

I still tend to think the memos were constructed as a trap for the media to fall into, to serve as an insurance policy against W’s days in the TANG being used against him.

I don’t think so, because if they were planted, whoever did it would have tried harder to conceal it. It wouldn’t have been hard to dig up a manual typewriter to create the docs, and then we might never have known.

You don’t plant fake documents that are so easy to spot. It still amazes me that no one in the CBS News editorial chain ever picked up on the fact that no typewriter could do that.

121 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:47:18pm

re: #120 Charles Johnson

I don’t think so, because if they were deliberate fakes they would tried harder to conceal it. It would not have been hard to dig up a manual typewriter to create the docs, and then we might never have known.

You don’t plant fake documents that are so easy to spot. It still amazes me that no one in the CBS News editorial chain ever picked up on the fact that no typewriter could do that.

One possibility is that one or more did, and perhaps thought Rather was due for a comeuppance. Wouldn’t be the first time that revenge was carried out by an easily denied omission rather than the commission of some act.

122 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:50:40pm

re: #120 Charles Johnson

I don’t think so, because if they were deliberate fakes they would tried harder to conceal it. It would not have been hard to dig up a manual typewriter to create the docs, and then we might never have known.

You don’t plant fake documents that are so easy to spot. It still amazes me that no one in the CBS News editorial chain ever picked up on the fact that no typewriter could do that.

AFAIK-If the memo had been contrary to their view of Bush it would have been scrutinized at length. But it was in agreement with the Bush=bad template of the day, so it got a cursory peek and then airtime. And had “legs” as a story. Ratings bias. Typical major media attitude.

123 JeffFX  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:51:03pm

re: #115 Charles Johnson

The documents weren’t just faked, they were OBVIOUSLY faked by someone who barely tried to hide it. I knew they were fakes the very instant I laid eyes on them.

I know. I followed the story when it happened, thought I would not have fit in here at all at the time, and was initially offended at what I thought was wingnuts attacking a respected journalist. I was quickly persuaded when I opened my mind and looked at the evidence.

It’s impossible for me to even buy into the fake but accurate line when he continues to deny that the document was debunked.

124 JeffFX  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:53:12pm

re: #122 Political Atheist

AFAIK-If the memo had been contrary to their view of Bush it would have been scrutinized at length. But it was in agreement with the Bush=bad template of the day, so it got a cursory peek and then airtime. And had “legs” as a story. Ratings bias. Typical major media attitude.

Just plain bias. We all can easily fall into the trap of believing things that reinforce our existing beliefs.

125 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:53:30pm

re: #120 Charles Johnson

I don’t think so, because if they were deliberate fakes they would tried harder to conceal it. It would not have been hard to dig up a manual typewriter to create the docs, and then we might never have known.

You don’t plant fake documents that are so easy to spot. It still amazes me that no one in the CBS News editorial chain ever picked up on the fact that no typewriter could do that.

I agree that if the object were to create fake documents to discredit GW Bush, a better job would most likely have been done.

If the object were to create a tempting trap for the media to fall into, then making the fakery easy to spot would be an important part of the plan. If the fakery is detected before the media goes with the story, it disappears without any damage being done. If the media runs with it, they’re doomed.

126 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:53:52pm

re: #119 goddamnedfrank

For a second let’s pretend that Mitt Romney had won the election and inherited the targeted killing program with its upgraded ability to strike citizens without one iota of Judicial Branch involvement.

How comfortable are you with that scenario? Well, there’s no guarantee that the next President is going to responsibly administrate that policy, but since there’s no oversight built in to it they’re going to be able to take the precedent and run with it.

Mitt Romney? Hell, there still could be a President Huckabee.

127 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:57:01pm

re: #124 JeffFX

Just plain bias. We all can easily fall into the trap of believing things that reinforce our existing beliefs.

True. You or I, kinda no big deal. But news media professionals? They need to make an effort to set that aside. That did not happen, but hey the state of US news media is pretty sad to see. We are now missing a big chunk of check and balance.

128 JeffFX  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 5:58:22pm

re: #127 Political Atheist

I know. In any business you need to put procedures in place to try to cancel out personal biases and other failings. This should be most important in the people we depend upon for our news.

129 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:00:13pm

Poor Dan Rather was just ahead of his time. Media outlets were always sloppy and sensationalist but outright faking or doctoring evidence wasn’t quite accepted into the mainstream yet.

130 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:01:25pm

Looks like two hematite nodules on an wind-eroded stalk of harder material.

So sayeth your friendly neighborhood geologist.

Of course, that’s just pure speculation and bullshit.

131 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:02:15pm

re: #127 Political Atheist

True. You or I, kinda no big deal. But news media professionals? They need to make an effort to set that aside. That did not happen, but hey the state of US news media is pretty sad to see. We are now missing a big chunk of check and balance.

Agreed. It is difficult to say who is worse — the propagandists, or the ‘he-said, she-said’ school of journalism.

132 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:05:13pm

re: #130 austin_blue

Looks like two hematite nodules on an wind-eroded stalk of harder material.

So sayeth your friendly neighborhood geologist.

Of course, that’s just pure speculation and bullshit.

I think its the car Monopoly piece standing on its edge.

133 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:05:50pm

re: #120 Charles Johnson

I don’t think so, because if they were planted, whoever did it would have tried harder to conceal it. It wouldn’t have been hard to dig up a manual typewriter to create the docs, and then we might never have known.

You don’t plant fake documents that are so easy to spot. It still amazes me that no one in the CBS News editorial chain ever picked up on the fact that no typewriter could do that.

The funny thing about the incident was that the info was basically true. It was only the document that was faked. Which is why so many believed that Rove threw it out there to see if anyone bit.

134 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:06:20pm

Just got a good look on TV at Dorners burned out truck at Big Bear. It so so completely burned. From bumper to bumper. The door handles are just gone. All you can see is the holes where they used to be. The rubber tires are about completely gone.

I’m no expert, but Big bear is high altitude. Things don’t burn that well so high. My guess is he doused the truck with something. A lot of it. Plus, ordinarily a fire draws attention fast. Weird.

So, did he have another vehicle to depart in? Did he go up to a hide in the mountainside? Holed up in a cabin?

135 SteveMcG  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:08:17pm

I know it’s water over the damn about President George W. Bush, but the thing I could not wrap my head around was just letting his medical certificate lapse without a fight.

136 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:08:35pm

re: #133 austin_blue

The idea that Bush got preferential treatment in the Texas Air National Guard because of his family wasn’t exactly earth-shaking news. I mean, duh.

The Rathergate documents purported to show specific instances where he got away with serious offenses, like going AWOL — that’s why it would have been news.

137 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:09:47pm

re: #133 austin_blue

The funny thing about the incident was that the info was basically true. It was only the document that was faked. Which is why so many believed that Rove threw it out there to see if anyone bit.

Fake but accurate and an inside job!
/I think there’s some kind of award for that.

138 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:09:56pm

re: #132 Mich-again

I think its the car Monopoly piece standing on its edge.

The cat kicked the iron to Mars.

139 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:12:09pm

Question for you Lizards. (droning on) Once an Individual leaves the borders of the U.S and its’ Territories, Do they still have Constitutional Rights as guaranteed by our Constitution? Or are they subject to the Laws of the Nation that they are going to?

It is a simple yes or no question.

I say they don’t. Constitutional protection ends at our borders regardless of your Nationality. You have them while you are here. You lose them when you leave. End or story.

Now if some scumbag we want captured/killed is here in the U.S. well, yes, a drone strike/assassination is against the the Law.

On the other hand, if (s)he is in another Country that gives us either blatant/tactic approval to use lethal force to take em out, how is that violating their Constitutional rights?

140 Targetpractice  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:13:10pm

re: #136 Charles Johnson

The idea that Bush got preferential treatment in the Texas Air National Guard because of his family wasn’t exactly earth-shaking news. I mean, duh.

The Rathergate documents purported to show specific instances where he got away with serious offenses, like going AWOL — that’s why it would have been news.

And a decade prior, the breaking of such news might have been enough to sway voters. Especially considering how hard the GOP had been pushing the Swiftboat BS.

141 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:14:24pm

re: #120 Charles Johnson

I don’t think so, because if they were planted, whoever did it would have tried harder to conceal it. It wouldn’t have been hard to dig up a manual typewriter to create the docs, and then we might never have known.

You don’t plant fake documents that are so easy to spot. It still amazes me that no one in the CBS News editorial chain ever picked up on the fact that no typewriter could do that.

A couple years back I wrote up a blog post with my own made-up conspiracy theory of how those fake documents came to be. Like all good CT’s its semi-plausible..

I think the Rathergate memos were illegally obtained documents that were scanned and saved as Microsoft Word documents using optical character recognition software. I think it happened during the early months of the Clinton administration when the FBI files of GOP leaders went missing for months and then mysteriously reappeared and were returned. Its hard to imagine those files were simply misplaced and no one in the Clinton White House rummaged through them.

Whether the goal was to use the secret documents to sway elections or just to sell them for cash, it was a simple plan poorly executed. They couldn’t make paper copies of all the documents. It would be too risky sneaking around with stacks of paper. Just ask Sandy Berger about that.. So they scanned the juiciest pages and saved them to files. But the boneheads saved the scanned documents as .doc files, not as .jpg images. Probably the default setting on the OCR software package they used.

142 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:15:35pm

re: #139 Bubblehead II

I’ll answer that in the form of a question

You commit a white collar crime in (lets say) New York City. Embezzled big bucks. You go to Panama to hide out. The FBI tracks you down and apprehends you. I’m willing to bet you’re Miranderized. If not, what happens when you’re on trial back here?

143 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:16:25pm

re: #142 sattv4u2

I’ll answer that in the form of a question

You commit a white collar crime in (lets say) New York City. Embezzled big bucks. You go to Panama to hide out. The FBI tracks you down and apprehends you. I’m willing to bet you’re Miranderized. If not, what happens when you’re on trial back here?

My scenario was more lurid —- IRS overseas wet work.

144 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:20:37pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

Fake but accurate and an inside job!
/I think there’s some kind of award for that.

There should be! It completely torpedoed an investigation by both the Houston Chronicle and the Dallas Morning News that had been going on since halfway through GW’s first term as Governor. People in the Texas ANG knew the story. He failed to show up for a flight physical in Houston and took a leave of absence from the Texas ANG to transfer to the Alabama ANG where he was doing a campaign. No one saw him ever show up at the Alabama ANG. True fact.

145 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:22:06pm

re: #139 Bubblehead II

Question for you Lizards. (droning on) Once an Individual leaves the borders of the U.S and its’ Territories, Do they still have Constitutional Rights as guaranteed by our Constitution? Or are they subject to the Laws of the Nation that they are going to?

It is a simple yes or no question.

I say they don’t. Constitutional protection ends at our borders regardless of your Nationality. You have them while you are here. You lose them when you leave. End or story.

Now if some scumbag we want captured/killed is here in the U.S. well, yes, a drone strike/assassination is against the the Law.

On the other hand, if (s)he is in another Country that gives us either blatant/tactic approval to use lethal force to take em out, how is that violating their Constitutional rights?

I would say enemy combatants are in peril of military strikes, regardless of their origin. But the idea that I would not have my constitutional rights vis a vis American law enforcement (FBI) just because I was on vacation in Germany is so wrong. Of course if I break a German law while I’m there it’s a German law enforcement/jurisprudence issue.

If it an American drug dealer or felony fugitive, I don’t think a drone strike is appropriate anywhere. If it’s a terrorist/enemy combatant, well covered that already. But would I not have my right to remain silent if interviewed by the FBI while away?

146 Bear  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:23:36pm

re: #134 Political Atheist

Any news about the condition of the two women shot by the police?

147 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:23:50pm

re: #142 sattv4u2

I’ll answer that in the form of a question

You commit a white collar crime in (lets say) New York City. Embezzled big bucks. You go to Panama to hide out. The FBI tracks you down and apprehends you. I’m willing to bet you’re Miranderized. If not, what happens when you’re on trial back here?

With or without the Panamanian Police help? The Panamanians are under no obligations to Miranderize you. Once you have been turned over to U.S. LEO, then yes, by law they are required to do so as you are then in U.S. custody and all Laws apply.

148 GeneJockey  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:24:27pm

re: #125 EPR-radar

I agree that if the object were to create fake documents to discredit GW Bush, a better job would most likely have been done.

If the object were to create a tempting trap for the media to fall into, then making the fakery easy to spot would be an important part of the plan. If the fakery is detected before the media goes with the story, it disappears without any damage being done. If the media runs with it, they’re doomed.

That always seemed the most likely scenario, to me. Would anyone trying to harm Bush, and going to the effort to spoof the format, names, etc, but then create the document in Word? Why create an easily debunkable fake unless the object is to debunk it?

149 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:25:34pm

re: #146 Bear

One in the hospital, one gone home. Poor lady was shot in the back. Lots of rounds hit that truck. Both are extremely luck to be alive.

150 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:27:36pm

re: #147 Bubblehead II

With or without the Panamanian Police help? The Panamanians are under no obligations to Miranderize you. Once you have been turned over to U.S. LEO, then yes, by law they are required to do so as you are then in U.S. custody and all Laws apply.

With the locals okay
by law they are required to do so as you are then in U.S. custody and all Laws apply

Then you did NOT lose those rights just because you’re on foreign soil

151 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:29:23pm

Funny that some people are perfectly OK blasting a dozen bullets at the neighbor kid who is stealing their TV but if an American is hanging out in an Al Qaeda safe house in Pakistan plotting an attack on an embassy they expect the suspect to be arrested, Miranderized, and brought home to the States where he can have a free lawyer and a trial in the locale of his choosing.

152 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:29:31pm

re: #132 Mich-again

I think its the car Monopoly piece standing on its edge.

Or it’s the iron. And that explains the cat being brought out to replace it.

153 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:30:12pm

re: #139 Bubblehead II

Question for you Lizards. (droning on) Once an Individual leaves the borders of the U.S and its’ Territories, Do they still have Constitutional Rights as guaranteed by our Constitution? Or are they subject to the Laws of the Nation that they are going to?

It is a simple yes or no question.

I say they don’t. Constitutional protection ends at our borders regardless of your Nationality. You have them while you are here. You lose them when you leave. End or story.

Now if some scumbag we want captured/killed is here in the U.S. well, yes, a drone strike/assassination is against the the Law.

On the other hand, if (s)he is in another Country that gives us either blatant/tactic approval to use lethal force to take em out, how is that violating their Constitutional rights?

I’ll leave Godwin out of it and go for another WWII anology. If you joined the Japanese army and were killed by a mortar round in a command bunker in the South Pacific you’d have no reason to bitch about it.

154 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:30:55pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

I’ll leave Godwin out of it and go for another WWII anology. If you joined the Japanese army and were killed by a mortar round in a command bunker in the South Pacific you’d have no reason to bitch about it.

Yeah, because you’d be,, well,,, DEAD!!

155 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:33:04pm

Another white supremacist spotted on TGDN. These little cockroaches are multiplying like cockroaches and supposedly “non-racist” wingnuts are following them like crazy.

156 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:33:19pm

re: #145 Political Atheist

But the idea that I would not have my constitutional rights vis a vis American law enforcement (FBI) just because I was on vacation in Germany is so wrong.

Why should the Germans honor the U.S Constitution? It ends at our borders.

Why is that so hard to understand?

157 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:35:02pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

I’ll leave Godwin out of it and go for another WWII anology. If you joined the Japanese army and were killed by a mortar round in a command bunker in the South Pacific you’d have no reason to bitch about it.

Has any US court held that constitutional protections apply on the battlefield to US citizens who are uniformed soldiers of an enemy state? I would be most surprised if any such case exists.

Of course, WWII isn’t a good analogy for the present day because we now have no enemy states, no uniformed soldiers, and no defined battlefields.

158 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:35:20pm

I would say once you any committed or assisted what could be considered an act of war according to international laws, any claims you had to citizenship in the country you attacked are off the table.

159 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:35:25pm

re: #156 Bubblehead II

Maybe I was not clear. If the German cops deal with me German law would apply. But if American cops of whatever kind talk to me and I say I won’t talk to them without my attorney, the FBI would be obligated to obey American law.

160 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:35:35pm

re: #156 Bubblehead II

But the idea that I would not have my constitutional rights vis a vis American law enforcement (FBI) just because I was on vacation in Germany is so wrong.

Why should the Germans honor the U.S Constitution? It ends at our borders.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Your constitutional rights don’t travel with you. Germans arrested in the US do get our constitutional protections. Americans arrested in Germany are tried in German courts under German laws. It’s just the way it works.

161 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:37:06pm

re: #158 Kragar

I would say once you any committed or assisted what could be considered an act of war according to international laws, any claims you had to citizenship in the country you attacked are off the table.

You can keep your citizenship but the government can still kill you for excessive douchebaggery.

162 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:37:40pm

re: #155 Vicious Babushka

Another white supremacist spotted on TGDN. These little cockroaches are multiplying like cockroaches and supposedly “non-racist” wingnuts are following them like crazy.

The new excuse I have seen from that sort of dirtbag is that it isn’t racism unless you are degrading the entire race, here is a message I got from an ex friend after I unfriended them for posting an obviously racist picture of Michelle Obama on FB.. It didn’t even deserve a reply from me.

No, Racism is an indictment against an entire GROUP of people as somehow being less than human. Not an individual. I don’t believe that any so-called “race” is superior to another. And I don’t believe that Michelle Obama is less than human. Call it low brow, but don’t call it “racist” unless you fully understand the term. K?

163 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:37:55pm

re: #156 Bubblehead II

But the idea that I would not have my constitutional rights vis a vis American law enforcement (FBI) just because I was on vacation in Germany is so wrong.

Why should the Germans honor the U.S Constitution? It ends at our borders.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Nobody is saying they should, but thats only part the question you asked

1st part
, Do they still have Constitutional Rights as guaranteed by our Constitution

Yes they do. See my #142

2nd part
are they subject to the Laws of the Nation that they are going to?
Yes they are!!

164 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:38:33pm

re: #150 sattv4u2

With the locals okay
by law they are required to do so as you are then in U.S. custody and all Laws apply

Then you did NOT lose those rights just because you’re on foreign soil

No, you regain them once you are returned to U.S. Authority. Until then, your are screwed. There is a difference. C’mon Sat. Even you should know this.

165 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:38:54pm

re: #161 Killgore Trout

You can keep your citizenship but the government can still kill you for excessive douchebaggery.

We’re gonna need a bigger cemetery!!

166 Kragar (Antichrist )  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:38:55pm

re: #161 Killgore Trout

You can keep your citizenship but the government can still kill you for excessive douchebaggery.

If they could, Nugent and Beck would be on the run.

167 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:40:09pm

re: #164 Bubblehead II

No, you regain them once you are returned to U.S. Authority. Until then, your are screwed. There is a difference. C’mon Sat. Even you should know this.

No. You’ve never “lost” them.

you’d only “lose” them if you renounce your citizenship
Even you should know this!

168 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:40:18pm

re: #156 Bubblehead II

But the US government still has to recognize the Constitution, wherever it acts. They can’t suppress the speech of a citizens just because that citizen isn’t on US soil, for example.

169 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:40:30pm

re: #163 sattv4u2

Question, do you think its OK to use your rifle to kill an intruder in your home who is rummaging through your refrigerator? Just trying to get some perspective ..

170 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:40:54pm

BTW, BBC did a really cool documentary on digging up Richard III. It was kind of sensationalist but apparently a lot of people behind the discovery of the location were crackpots and nuts. Interesting story.

171 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:41:40pm

re: #158 Kragar

I would say once you any committed or assisted what could be considered an act of war according to international laws, any claims you had to citizenship in the country you attacked are off the table.

Citizenship should not be a defense against hostile acts.

Phrased alternately, the United States of America should not feel free to engage against unjustifiable acts of violence against a person merely because they are not a citizen of the USA.

You’re a worthy-of-killing enemy or you’re not. To hell with citizenship in either case. We have human rights, not citizen-rights.

This whole argument sickens me.

172 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:41:51pm

re: #164 Bubblehead II

re: #167 sattv4u2

No. You’ve never “lost” them.

you’d only “lose” them if you renounce your citizenship
Even you should know this!

Let me put it this way. You don’t lose your citizenship (then regain it) when you leave (the re-enter) the states

173 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:42:04pm

re: #169 Mich-again

Question, do you think its OK to use your rifle to kill an intruder in your home who is rummaging through your refrigerator? Just trying to get some perspective ..

I worked hard on that pie. Damned all if some doofus is just gonna break in and walk away with it!
///

174 danarchy  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:43:00pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Your constitutional rights don’t travel with you. Germans arrested in the US do get our constitutional protections. Americans arrested in Germany are tried in German courts under German laws. It’s just the way it works.

I think his point is that the US government still needs to respect his rights even though he isn’t on us soil. They couldn’t just say “Hey political atheist left our borders lets send a wet work team after him.” The Germans don’t have to respect his constitutional rights, but the US government still does.

Of course I think once you declare yourself openly as an enemy of the nation, then that changes things. I am not comfortable with the president being able to make that call all on his lonesome though. At the least there should be some due process to determine a US citizen is indeed an enemy combatant.

175 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:43:07pm

re: #171 erik_t

I agree that citizenship should basically be irrelevant. What should the rules be (if any) for US assassinations is the main issue.

176 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:44:02pm

re: #175 EPR-radar

I agree that citizenship should basically be irrelevant. What should the rules be (if any) for US assassinations is the main issue.

I don’t have a good answer for the latter, but I could not agree more strongly that that is the relevant question.

Citizenship? Fuck citizenship. People are people.

177 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:44:27pm

re: #169 Mich-again

Question, do you think its OK to use your rifle to kill an intruder in your home who is rummaging through your refrigerator? Just trying to get some perspective ..

Depends on the level of threat I think the person is.

a 12 year old looking for a Pepsi ,, nahhh

A 20 something y/o holding a knife, yelling incoherent obscenities, bug eyed, making sudden unpredictable movements, perhaps

178 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:45:51pm

re: #159 Political Atheist

Maybe I was not clear. If the German cops deal with me German law would apply. But if American cops of whatever kind talk to me and I say I won’t talk to them without my attorney, the FBI would be obligated to obey American law.

WRONG!

Until you are in American custody. American Law does not apply.

Surprise Suprise

179 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:46:16pm

re: #173 Feline Fearless Leader

I worked hard on that pie. Damned all if some doofus is just gonna break in and walk away with it!
///

I only said that because some people call it a victory for gun rights every time a homeowner shoots and kills an intruder. Those guns-are-good stories rarely if ever even mention if the intruder was armed, it doesn’t matter, they were in my house, I killed em dead!

Now these same folks have become Constitutional lawyers advocating for Adam Ghadain’s Miranda rights.

180 erik_t  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:46:38pm

re: #178 Bubblehead II

Until you are in American custody. American Law does not apply.

If that’s the law, then the law is fucking wrong. Fuck the Supremes and everybody else. That’s just wrong.

181 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:47:11pm

re: #178 Bubblehead II

WRONG!

Until you are in American custody. American Law does not apply.

Surprise Suprise

umm,, isn;t that we he stated???

if American cops of whatever kind talk to me and I say I won’t talk to them without my attorney, the FBI would be obligated to obey American law.

182 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:48:03pm

The oddest thing to me about the drone argument is that some of my pro-military Obama hating friends seem upset that the drone strikes are taking their jobs away.

183 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:48:13pm

re: #174 danarchy

Of course I think once you declare yourself openly as an enemy of the nation, then that changes things. I am not comfortable with the president being able to make that call all on his lonesome though. At the least there should be some due process to determine a US citizen is indeed an enemy combatant.

Well, being in an enemy command post and directing operations does make one an enemy combatant. Times have changed. In the past just being in a Japanese pillbox firing at American soldiers didn’t require presidential approval for troops to return fire. today these decisions come straight from the top.

184 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:49:32pm

re: #177 sattv4u2

In the home with a gun defense classes I took, we always discussed the drunk neighbor scenario. How to stay safe enough to have time to observe, orient then decide. Then act. “hey Joe, you drunk again? Sit down before you get hurt.” Beats the hell out of “bang bang, is that YOU JOE?!”

185 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:49:51pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

I know one thing, in that part of the world stay away from any structure referred to as a “safe house”.

186 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:51:03pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Your constitutional rights don’t travel with you. Germans arrested in the US do get our constitutional protections. Americans arrested in Germany are tried in German courts under German laws. It’s just the way it works.

X1000

187 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:52:18pm

re: #185 Mich-again

I know one thing, in that part of the world stay away from any structure referred to as a “safe house”.

My luck, I’d be the one delivering a pizza there the night some corporal sitting at a PC in Arizona gets the go to drone that house !!!

///

188 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:53:16pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

Well, being in an enemy command post and directing operations does make one an enemy combatant. Times have changed. In the past just being in a Japanese pillbox firing at American soldiers didn’t require presidential approval for troops to return fire. today these decisions come straight from the top.

I’d like a clarification. Nobody is necessarily advocating for a need for presidential approval to return fire in a firefight, which seems to be what you’re saying here. The question is more targeted assassinations, I thought?

189 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:53:25pm

re: #186 Bubblehead II

Why would the Germans arrest me and try me in Germany for breaking an American law?

190 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:54:09pm

re: #167 sattv4u2

No. You’ve never “lost” them.

you’d only “lose” them if you renounce your citizenship
Even you should know this!

Bullshit. You leave this Country, you leave the Constitution behind. You only have International law to protect your ass.

191 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:54:28pm

re: #162 Mich-again

The new excuse I have seen from that sort of dirtbag is that it isn’t racism unless you are degrading the entire race, here is a message I got from an ex friend after I unfriended them for posting an obviously racist picture of Michelle Obama on FB.. It didn’t even deserve a reply from me.

They totally do degrade an entire race, it’s not even the lame excuse “Michelle is fugly” it’s N***** N***** N***** AS LOUD AS YOU CAN SHOUT IT

192 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:54:37pm

“Click to enlarge”
I miss the “embiggen”

193 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:54:55pm

re: #190 Bubblehead II

Bullshit. You leave this Country, you leave the Constitution behind. You only have International law to protect your ass.

No, again, from my 142, not if the FBI pick you up in say, Panama

194 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:55:26pm

re: #168 Obdicut

But the US government still has to recognize the Constitution, wherever it acts. They can’t suppress the speech of a citizens just because that citizen isn’t on US soil, for example.

?????????????????????????

195 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:55:37pm

re: #189 Political Atheist

Why would the Germans arrest me and try me in Germany for breaking an American law?

There are extradition treaties for fugitives, so they can totally arrest your ass in Germany if you are on the lam after breaking US laws.

196 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:55:46pm

re: #179 Mich-again

I only said that because some people call it a victory for gun rights every time a homeowner shoots and kills an intruder. Those guns-are-good stories rarely if ever even mention if the intruder was armed, it doesn’t matter, they were in my house, I killed em dead!

Now these same folks have become Constitutional lawyers advocating for Adam Ghadain’s Miranda rights.

I understand. I joked about it, but it is an issue of what the proper response is to something that just looks like a property crime (guy in your fridge) as compared to a potential assault and person crime (guy stalking through house looking for people). An often don’t dwell on the effects on the psyche of blowing someone away in your house.

Best option if someone is rummaging around is probably just to get out and then call the police. But that’s probably fully rational thinking as compared to all the emotional and chemical goings on - adrenaline, instinctive desire to protect territory, etc.

197 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:57:15pm

re: #195 Vicious Babushka

There are extradition treaties for fugitives, so they can totally arrest your ass in Germany if you are on the lam after breaking US laws.

They’d detain you until the extradition went through, but they wouldn’t hold your trail there (unless it was a soldier on a US base)

198 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:59:16pm

re: #193 sattv4u2

No, again, from my 142, not if the FBI pick you up in say, Panama

And then, to spice up the example a bit (with a not entirely hypothetical embellishment), suppose the FBI then officially transfers you to the custody of some nation that doesn’t have civil liberties. Losing all your rights in this situation is not something to just smile and nod at.

199 HoosierHoops  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 6:59:55pm

What’s kick’n Lizards!
You know what is a mystery? Finding trust worthy commentators on the web.
98% of them end up disappointing me in the end.. Ya find out they are birthers or had been abducted by Aliens or down to their true basic beliefs.
we find out who they really are and it’s resultant disappointment.
So how about any up or down votes for Norman Ornstein. I heard him tonight and he seemed pretty level headed on politics. Any thoughts?

200 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:00:32pm

re: #172 sattv4u2

re: #167 sattv4u2

Let me put it this way. You don’t lose your citizenship (then regain it) when you leave (the re-enter) the states

That I will accept. But you DO LOSE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS when you leave our borders and the regain them when you return, or are returned (via LEO action). Yes or no?

201 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:01:36pm

re: #199 HoosierHoops

What’s kick’n Lizards!
You know what is a mystery? Finding trust worthy commentators on the web.
98% of them end up disappointing me in the end.. Ya find out they are birthers or had been abducted by Aliens or down to their true basic beliefs.
we find out who they really are and it’s resultant disappointment.
So how about any up or down votes for Norman Ornstein. I heard him tonight and he seemed pretty level headed on politics. Any thoughts?

There seems to be a lot of confusion on small points of US/International law. Beware!

202 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:02:18pm

re: #198 EPR-radar
Losing all your rights in this situation is not something to just smile and nod at.

A), I never said it would
B), you still didn’t “lose” your rights. The gov’t would actually be denying you them and would be subject to MAJOR lawsuits IF you got out of it

203 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:02:57pm

re: #188 klys

I’d like a clarification. Nobody is necessarily advocating for a need for presidential approval to return fire in a firefight, which seems to be what you’re saying here. The question is more targeted assassinations, I thought?

It’s not all that dissimilar as far as I can tell. Suppose someone is directing operations in a secure bunker in Pakistan or Oklahoma where peaceful arrest isn’t a reasonable option. They’ll kill you, that hasn’t changed and I fail to see any reason why it should change.

204 danarchy  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:03:48pm

re: #200 Bubblehead II

That I will accept. But you DO LOSE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS when you leave our borders and the regain them when you return, or are returned (via LEO action). Yes or no?

Still going to go with no. As far as the US government is concerned you still have your constitutional rights as long as they are involved. Which is how the conversation started, what can the US do to a citizen who has left US soil, yes local authorities do not need to respect your US constitutional rights, but in any interaction with the US government, you still have those rights. Whether or not you are on US soil.

205 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:04:11pm

re: #194 Bubblehead II

?????????????????????????

I’m not sure what you’re confused about.

The legal question here is about the killing of a US citizen by the US government. It’s not about the treatment of the US citizen by another nation, but by ours. That’s why it’s still a constitutional argument.

I also agree that whether or not he’s a citizen really doesn’t matter. The question is of what level of certainty we should have before just blowing someone up, and what levels of collateral damage we are okay with.

206 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:05:41pm

re: #202 sattv4u2

Losing all your rights in this situation is not something to just smile and nod at.

A), I never said it would
B), you still didn’t “lose” your rights. The gov’t would actually be denying you them

I was emphasizing your point by adding rendition to your example. This idea that US rights only apply to people in US custody is terribly easy to abuse by having sham foreign custody of people the US officials want to deny rights to.

207 HoosierHoops  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:06:02pm

re: #201 austin_blue

There seems to be a lot of confusion on small points of US/International law. Beware!

I saw that! LOL.. Look when traveling on an American passport you don’t lose your rights in the US..But when in Rome do as the Romans do.. Break a law in a foreign country.. Good luck to your ass..
Remember that movie called the midnight express? Nuff said..
/Howdy Texan!

208 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:07:48pm

re: #190 Bubblehead II

Bullshit. You leave this Country, you leave the Constitution behind. You only have International law to protect your ass.

No

Part of being a citizen is having those rights

If you don’t lose your citizenship, you don’t lose the things that come with it

209 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:08:22pm

Meanwhile the obesity epidemic at Gitmo rages on. Please send yoga pants and low calorie snacks.

210 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:08:43pm

This is interesting.

Christopher Dorner Manhunt: Listen To L.A. & Big Bear Police Scanners For Live Streaming Updates

I used to listen to my grandfathers scanner when I was a kid. I wish I had high speed internet to listen to this one.

211 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:09:38pm

re: #207 HoosierHoops

I saw that! LOL.. Look when traveling on an American passport you don’t lose your rights in the US..But when in Rome do as the Romans do.. Break a law in a foreign country.. Good luck to your ass..
Remember that movie called the midnight express? Nuff said..
/Howdy Texan!

And howdy back, Okie! Seems that the Philadelphia -> Boston corridor is going to get just hammered tomorrow.

We hit eighty today. Still no rain.

212 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:09:39pm

re: #209 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile the obesity epidemic at Gitmo rages on. Please send yoga pants and low calorie snacks.

Couldn’t the prayer rugs be double used as exercise mats ???
//

213 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:09:39pm

re: #208 sattv4u2

No

Part of being a citizen is having those rights

If you don’t lose your citizenship, you don’t lose the things that come with it

Some rights (e.g., voting) depend on citizenship. Other rights, such as due process of law, apply to all under US jurisdiction, citizens and non-citizens alike.

214 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:10:49pm

re: #205 Obdicut

I’m not sure what you’re confused about.

The legal question here is about the killing of a US citizen by the US government. It’s not about the treatment of the US citizen by another nation, but by ours. That’s why it’s still a constitutional argument.

I also agree that whether or not he’s a citizen really doesn’t matter. The question is of what level of certainty we should have before just blowing someone up, and what levels of collateral damage we are okay with.

And who is going to be in charge of determining that certainty.

215 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:12:20pm

re: #203 Killgore Trout

It’s not all that dissimilar as far as I can tell. Suppose someone is directing operations in a secure bunker in Pakistan or Oklahoma where peaceful arrest isn’t a reasonable option. They’ll kill you, that hasn’t changed and I fail to see any reason why it should change.

In one case, you have a very clear issue of self-defense on the part of the party taking the person out. In the other case it becomes much murkier. I’m not necessarily suggesting that the end outcome is different, but the process that one gets there maybe should be and that’s the distinction folks are arguing.

216 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:12:45pm

re: #204 danarchy

Still going to go with no. As far as the US government is concerned you still have your constitutional rights as long as they are involved. Which is how the conversation started, what can the US do to a citizen who has left US soil, yes local authorities do not need to respect your US constitutional rights, but in any interaction with the US government, you still have those rights. Whether or not you are on US soil.

No, you don’t

217 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:15:24pm

Corn Chex
Banana
Celtics by 25 pts over the Lakers
Belator MMA
LGF

life is good

218 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:17:20pm

re: #216 Bubblehead II

No, you don’t

Okay, how about you please cite a legal source to back you up? I’ll cheerfully bow to the reality as is.

219 EPR-radar  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:17:33pm

re: #216 Bubblehead II

No, you don’t

So in any case where the US government believes someone’s rights are inconvenient, a complete solution is to transport the person overseas? Presto, no more annoying rights.

This really does gut the entire idea of civil rights as a limit on the US government rather thoroughly.

220 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:19:32pm

re: #219 EPR-radar

So in any case where the US government believes someone’s rights are inconvenient, a complete solution is to transport the person overseas? Presto, no more annoying rights?

This really does gut the entire idea of civil rights as a limit on the US government rather thoroughly.

hmmm,,

Our own version of the Mariel boatlift!!!!

221 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:19:32pm

Meanwhile, in France…..

Eugène Delacroix’s famous painting Liberty Leading the People is vandalized on February 7 while on display at the new Louvre-Lens museum in France.

222 HoosierHoops  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:20:18pm

re: #211 austin_blue

And howdy back, Okie! Seems that the Philadelphia -> Boston corridor is going to get just hammered tomorrow.

We hit eighty today. Still no rain.

Yea, Nice weather and a bit of rain today. We all need Lot’s of rain.
I read up and see the comments are about killing a American Citizen without due process. two words
Benedict Arnold

223 uncah91  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:21:29pm

re: #219 EPR-radar

So in any case where the US government believes someone’s rights are inconvenient, a complete solution is to transport the person overseas? Presto, no more annoying rights?

This really does gut the entire idea of civil rights as a limit on the US government rather thoroughly.

Why do you think the CIA uses rendition?

224 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:22:15pm

re: #219 EPR-radar

So in any case where the US government believes someone’s rights are inconvenient, a complete solution is to transport the person overseas? Presto, no more annoying rights.

This really does gut the entire idea of civil rights as a limit on the US government rather thoroughly.

Well, except transporting them overseas against their will would also be a constitutional violation.

Anyway, it’s all a sideline. The claim is that they’re valid military targets. If they’re valid military targets, their citizenship status doesn’t matter, nor does any concept of right to a trial. If what they’re accused of is criminal, but not actually taking part in or supporting military action against us, then it’s not appropriate to kill them using military force.

225 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:23:18pm

re: #223 uncah91

Why do you think the CIA uses rendition?

As far as I know, that hasn’t been applied to US citizens. I reserve the right to be wrong, though.

226 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:23:52pm

re: #60 Mattand

Hey! Egypt has Republicans, too!

Not quite. That asshole makes Rick Santorum look like a feminist by comparison.

227 uncah91  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:23:59pm

I think one thing people are missing is that the actions in question are essentially being carried out in stateless areas, outside of any effective government control.

If one of these guys was hanging out in Germany, or even Indonesia, we wouldn’t drone strike them, for a whole layer cake of reasons.

228 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:24:28pm

re: #211 austin_blue

We hit eighty today. Still no rain.

As the planet slowly heats up there will be less precipitation in warmer areas and more of it in colder areas. Psychrometric chart and all..

229 uncah91  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:25:05pm

re: #225 klys

As far as I know, that hasn’t been applied to US citizens. I reserve the right to be wrong, though.

Constitutional rights don’t merely apply to citizens, though, do they?

230 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:26:13pm

re: #159 Political Atheist

Maybe I was not clear. If the German cops deal with me German law would apply. But if American cops of whatever kind talk to me and I say I won’t talk to them without my attorney, the FBI would be obligated to obey American law.

Bubblehead-
Okay what about this got the ding? Did I misunderstand something or are you just marking profound disagreement?

231 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:27:20pm

re: #204 danarchy

Still going to go with no. As far as the US government is concerned you still have your constitutional rights as long as they are involved. Which is how the conversation started, what can the US do to a citizen who has left US soil, yes local authorities do not need to respect your US constitutional rights, but in any interaction with the US government, you still have those rights. Whether or not you are on US soil.

Doesn’t matter in the case of Anwar al-Awlaki. He was organizing attacks on the US and we did not have a reasonable way to detain him for trial. Thus killing him via airstrike was reasonable. He was an enemy commander, not just a footsoldier or mere criminal.

232 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:28:25pm

re: #204 danarchy

Still going to go with no. As far as the US government is concerned you still have your constitutional rights as long as they are involved. Which is how the conversation started, what can the US do to a citizen who has left US soil, yes local authorities do not need to respect your US constitutional rights, but in any interaction with the US government, you still have those rights. Whether or not you are on US soil.

A lot depends on international agreements. In extreme cases, US soldiers overseas, arrested by American MPs, can be turned over to host nation LE for prosecution under their laws.

233 klys  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:30:46pm

re: #229 uncah91

Constitutional rights don’t merely apply to citizens, though, do they?

I would agree that they shouldn’t (editing to add: merely apply to citizens, implying that they should apply to everyone), but I don’t believe any of the people detained for rendition were detained within the US either. So they were neither citizens nor in the US. (Again, reserving the right to be wrong.)

I disagree with the whole concept of rendition and what was done, for the record.

234 uncah91  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:31:37pm

re: #232 Decatur Deb

A lot depends on international agreements. In extreme cases, US soldiers overseas, arrested by American MPs, can be turned over to host nation LE for prosecution under their laws.

And I also think that if you are the other nation’s custody, you are then subject to their rules about questioning, even if the foreign officials let the U.S. officials ask some of the questions.

235 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:32:23pm

re: #231 Dark_Falcon

Doesn’t matter in the case of Anwar al-Awlaki. He was organizing attacks on the US and we did not have a reasonable way to detain him for trial. Thus killing him via airstrike was reasonable. He was an enemy commander, not just a footsoldier or mere criminal.

Terrorize the terrorists. May the last sound they hear be an odd whistling noise that seems to be getting clo

236 Decatur Deb  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:32:59pm

re: #234 uncah91

And I also think that if you are the other nation’s custody, you are then subject to their rules about questioning, even if the foreign officials let the U.S. officials ask some of the questions.

Yup. It takes a pretty big outrage to get in that situation, e.g. Marine rapes on Okinawa.

237 uncah91  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:33:06pm

re: #233 klys

I would agree that they shouldn’t, but I don’t believe any of the people detained for rendition were detained within the US either. So they were neither citizens nor in the US. (Again, reserving the right to be wrong.)

I disagree with the whole concept of rendition and what was done, for the record.

Which is the whole point, the constitution applies on US soil. Citizenship is largely a red herring in this situation.

238 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:33:40pm

Ok, Just to make this clear to you people. Charles, please feel free to jump in here.

ONCE YOU LEAVE THE BORDERS OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS’ TERRITORY’S, YOU ARE NO LONGER COVERD BY THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS’ ASSOCIATED LAWS.

Get the fuck over it

239 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:37:29pm

re: #222 HoosierHoops

Yea, Nice weather and a bit of rain today. We all need Lot’s of rain.
I read up and see the comments are about killing a American Citizen without due process. two words
Benedict Arnold

Yeah, I’m pretty much “meh” about this. If you have left the US and are actively involved with organizations that want to attack this country, I figure you have crossed the Rubicon.

240 uncah91  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:45:04pm

re: #237 uncah91

Which is the whole point, the constitution applies on US soil. Citizenship is largely a red herring in this situation.

To expand on my point here, the issue is not the rights of the target (under the U.S. constitution) but the legality of the actions by U.S. officials. Is it legal to engage in targeted killing inside the borders of another state, with which we are not at war, the target being not a member of a foreign military, but an extra-state military?

Certainly targeting Hitler, Rommel, or any other German military official in WWII was legal. But this is not exactly the same, is it…

241 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:46:07pm

re: #239 austin_blue

Yeah, I’m pretty much “meh” about this. If you have left the US and are actively involved with organizations that want to attack this country, I figure you have crossed the Rubicon.

I’d agree with that two-part description, especially given that it fits in with the original use of the crossing of the Rubicon by Caesar.

242 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:49:19pm

re: #209 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile the obesity epidemic at Gitmo rages on. Please send yoga pants and low calorie snacks.

Celery and salads! LOL!

243 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:55:21pm

re: #238 Bubblehead II

Easy dude. You brought it up as a topic of conversation. I take this as an interesting chat among friends. On the drone war, I favor some transparency. Enemy combatants are valid targets. Even if they are from Malibu.

244 danarchy  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:56:35pm

re: #238 Bubblehead II

Ok, Just to make this clear to you people. Charles, please feel free to jump in here.

ONCE YOU LEAVE THE BORDERS OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS’ TERRITORY’S, YOU ARE NO LONGER COVERD BY THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS’ ASSOCIATED LAWS.

Get the fuck over it

Ooh, yelling and appeal to authority. Maybe it makes more sense if we put it this way. Instead of saying the rights follow the individual, how about the US government is bound by the US constitution no matter where they are acting.

I am speaking in generalities here. Quite frankly I don’t care if a couple of declared enemies of the United States are taken out, I just don’t want any overly broad precedents to be set.

245 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 7:59:15pm

War legacies of the last 3 Presidents..

Clinton carpet bombed the Balkans back to the stone age from high altitude.

GWB sent in hundreds of thousands of ground troops to Iraq and Afghanistan on successive missions of Nation destroying followed by Nation building.

Obama authorized Drone strikes for targeted killings.

One of those three basic strategies points to the future of warfare.

246 DREd  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 8:02:52pm

re: #238 Bubblehead II

Ok, Just to make this clear to you people. Charles, please feel free to jump in here.

ONCE YOU LEAVE THE BORDERS OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS’ TERRITORY’S, YOU ARE NO LONGER COVERD BY THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS’ ASSOCIATED LAWS.

Get the fuck over it

It’s considerably more complicated than that.

247 DREd  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 8:08:40pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

I’d agree with that two-part description, especially given that it fits in with the original use of the crossing of the Rubicon by Caesar.

Sure, that makes some sense. But the issue is-how do we know you’ve crossed that Rubicon? The executive branch makes that determination based on secret information that is subject to review by no other branch of the government. That’s the problem. The problem isn’t with a drone shooting a missle into a bunker in Pakistan where an American citizen is actively engaged in a plot against America. It’s a drone blowing up an American citizen siting in a cafe in Pakistan and saying they had secret information showing that he was going to be doing something that threatened the United States in the future, only nobody can see that information and you have to take their word for it.

248 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 7, 2013 8:09:14pm

US oversees citizens can vote in US federal elections and owe federal income tax on income over $95,000/year. If these rights and responsibilities of citizenship still attach via signed and passed legislation beyond the US borders I fail to understand how it’s permissible for POTUS to target a citizen for assassination without any Judicial Branch oversight or involvement.

If just cause exists to target a citizen for killing, then the threshold for stripping them of citizenship first should already have been reached. As a simple safeguard against unilateral abuse this should be a prerequisite action and require the involvement of more than one branch of government.

249 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:57:05am

re: #141 Mich-again

A couple years back I wrote up a blog post with my own made-up conspiracy theory of how those fake documents came to be. Like all good CT’s its semi-plausible..

I don’t think they were scanned and OCR’d. There would have been too many errors showing up in the document.

And the proof that they were fake wasn’t so much that it showed things that a typewriter “couldn’t do”—it was that the line-breaking algorithm of Microsoft Word matched—pixel for pixel—that document which purported to be an old typewriter document. Back in the old days, the carriage would “ding” and the operator had some discretion of when to pull the return lever

250 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:00:05am

re: #248 goddamnedfrank

This is a very good point! If you can charge them income tax, you can’t kill them! And I don’t mean to be flippant here: It’s become hard to renounce your citizenship and expatriate yourself because the U.S. wants your money. They can’t have it both ways.

251 kirkspencer  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 8:11:18am

re: #238 Bubblehead II

Ok, Just to make this clear to you people. Charles, please feel free to jump in here.

ONCE YOU LEAVE THE BORDERS OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS’ TERRITORY’S, YOU ARE NO LONGER COVERD BY THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS’ ASSOCIATED LAWS.

Get the fuck over it

According to the US Supreme Court in Reid v Covert, you’re wrong.

252 chadu  Fri, Feb 8, 2013 9:09:57am

re: #249 ReamWorks SKG

I just started reading this on the Bush memoes:

[Link: aheckofa.com…]

There was a link on the Reddit AMA.

Thoughts?


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

TwitterFacebook

Turn off all ads for a full year by subscribing!
For about 33 cents a day (per month) or 22 cents a day (per year), our subscription option turns off all advertisements at LGF!
Read more...

► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Articles

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Pages

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form
LGF Pages

This button leads to the main index of LGF Pages, our user-submitted articles. You can post your own LGF Pages simply by registering a free account with us.

Create a Page

This is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.

Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.

Last updated: 2014-03-07 2:19 pm PST

LGF User's Guide
Recent Pages
Floral Giraffe
What’s A Grand Jury? How Will It Work In The Ferguson Case?
Interesting read from ST. Louis Public Radio broadcast with a focus on the Brown/Wilson caseand some direct quotes from Missouri law professors. Links too!!! Includes a possible list of charges. The purpose of a grand jury, in theory, is to ...

14 minutes ago
Views: 13 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
EiMitch
Escapist: Maniac Cop
escapistmagazine.com Link broken? The gist is that this is an impressively sarcastic review of an old slasher flick based on the "unrealistic" premise of a cop abusing his power to murder people.

5 hours, 35 minutes ago
Views: 55 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
Randall Gross
Spectrum Spats: Chatty Cars, Busy Broadcast Airwaves
In my humble view the FCC needs to set aside spectrum specifically for machine to machine communications (M2M) and the industry really needs to set some standards for use of those wavelengths. (Encryption, keys/certificates required, IPV6 with full certed Machine ...

14 hours, 34 minutes ago
Views: 85 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 2
Hyped Up On Ganja
Hunt for German neo-Nazis was ‘complete disaster’
BERLIN (AP) -- Police and security services in Germany's eastern state of Thuringia bungled the hunt for three neo-Nazis, who years later turned out to be the main suspects in a far-right murder spree. Story

23 hours, 46 minutes ago
Views: 217 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 2
Rightwingconspirator
A Lizard’s Regenerating Tail
Don't ya hate it when that happens? You feel so short for a month. Anoles are curious little lizards capable of ditching their tails when they feel threatened. This self-amputation, called autotomy, takes about 25 days for the tail to ...

1 day, 7 hours ago
Views: 159 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 2
CriticalDragon1177
Io9 - Everything You Need To Know About Lemuria, The Lost Continent Of Lemurs
Esther Inglis-Arkell talks about the weirdest lost continent myth, I've ever heard. Its the only one I know of that ever included giant telepathic lemurs. No seriously! In 1858 a young zoologist, playing around with an idea, came up with ...

1 day, 9 hours ago
Views: 221 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 4
FemNaziBitch
Face It: The Abortion Battle Is Just About Sex- US News
The phony battle over certain kinds of birth control that are (often wrongly) called abortifacients is not about abortion. And much of the political fight about abortion isn't really about abortion, either. It's about whether women should be allowed ...

1 day, 17 hours ago
Views: 324 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 0
Laughing Gas
Scumbag “HBD believer” claims Michael Brown charged officer
WARNING: LINK TO HATE SITE He links to some ijreview, a right wing site: This guy makes me sick.

4 days, 9 hours ago
Views: 848 • Comments: 6
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 0
BadExampleMan
“Growth” and Some Jellyfish
This piece was basically just to use up some scraps I had sitting around. I liked the way the frit lace turned out but I didn't really have a use for it. I've been on a jellyfish kick lately. This ...

1 week ago
Views: 361 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 2
Pie-onist Overlord
Police Investigating Whether Rabbi’s Miami Killing a Hate Crime
More: Police Investigating Whether Rabbi's Miami Killing a Hate Crime (Reuters) - Police in Miami investigating the killing of a 60-year-old Orthodox rabbi over the weekend said on Monday they haven't yet decided whether the shooting was a hate crime. ...

1 week, 4 days ago
Views: 617 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 1
 Frank says:

He [Barney Frank] is one of the most impressive guys in Congress. He is a great model for young gay men.