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The Only Article About Guns You Need to Read Today

“I didn’t fight then, but I will fight now”
Opinion • Views: 23,453

At xojane.com: How a Gun-Loving West Texas Girl Learned to Fear Assault Weapons.

In college, I spent several years with an abusive boyfriend.

He was smart, though, so it was a quiet kind of abuse — very few marks. Very few public displays of anger. Hard worker, upright citizen. A bit cold, but not the kind of man you’d “expect” to knock his partner around.

Nine months after I left him, he called me crying at 10 in the morning, drunk. He was hurting. Life was hard.

And I still only wanted good things for him, so I went over.

For the next hour, he held me hostage with a Glock pistol, which is a semi-automatic handgun. This has also been the gun of choice for Jeffrey Weise, James Holmes, Cho Seung-Hui, Jared Lee Loughner, and most recently, Adam Lanza.

In my case, it was a gift from my boyfriend’s father. For “home defense.” 

It is the calmest I can ever remember being.

Jump to bottom

675 comments

1 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:08:36pm

It was a fascinating essay, but I'm disturbed by this:

My ex was calling a lot. I hadn't pressed charges, because I didn't want him to lose his job, and taking out a restraining order was tricky without pressing charges.

I know she was young then, but allowing a maniac to go unpunished is simply wrong.

I was once assaulted by a 17-year-old. The police discouraged me from pressing charges because they said it'll just disappear when he turns 18. (Even though it was a good case, witnesses, and a confession to the Police.) I pressed ahead anyway. I refused to let him and his parents explain it way as a one-time "fluke" by an otherwise good kid. I figured if he assaulted me (by throwing an object from his car and hitting me as I was walking to Friday services at my synagogue), he probably does this to others.

(Unfortunately, the police were correct, he turned 18, went to Dartmouth, and didn't suffer at all because of it.)

2 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:10:16pm

I think this article gets to the core of the issue, as I see it. Certain kinds of guns (and I'm the first to admit I can't make these technical distinctions myself) exist as tools primarily for the purpose of killing other people. They have no other real purpose.

How commonplace do we want these instruments of death to be in society? If they are going to be everywhere, what, if anything, are we prepared to do to try to keep the body count down.

3 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:15:52pm

Good article.

I think the point she is making is that only responsible people should have access to firearms. Her father, her mother, even her boyfriend were aware of what could be done with a firearm, and were careful. The author herself is responsible.

Her abusive-ex was not, and she came that close to being a homicide statistic.

So she understands, emotionally, why firearms should be carefully regulated. Because irresponsible people should never, ever be able to hold a firearm in their hands.

4 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:17:21pm

If you live in a home that has guns for defense - the minute your relationship goes sour as 50% are apt to do, that defense could so easily be used against you in a fit of hurt anger.

5 Tigger2005  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:18:06pm

It's really tiresome, all these people trying to argue that the Second Amendment gives them the right to own whatever deadly toys they want and screw the social contract.

6 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:19:01pm

This is the voice of a woman who survived a situation that many, many women do not survive.

7 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:19:09pm

re: #4 Stanghazi

The stats for homicide/suicide in homes with guns are about 5 times that of those of home without.

8 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:20:10pm

re: #3 Romantic Heretic

Good article.

I think the point she is making is that only responsible people should have access to firearms. Her father, her mother, even her boyfriend were aware of what could be done with a firearm, and were careful. The author herself is responsible.

Her abusive-ex was not, and she came that close to being a homicide statistic.

So she understands, emotionally, why firearms should be carefully regulated. Because irresponsible people should never, ever be able to hold a firearm in their hands.

However, on the fact pattern as described in that article, there would have been no reasonable way to deny gun ownership to the abuser on the basis of irresponsibility --- he was good enough at hiding his issues.

If we want to allow guns all over the place, it is important to realize the impossibility of this kind of policing for responsibility, and to accept that there will often be serious consequences to permissive gun policies.

9 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:21:42pm

re: #7 Romantic Heretic

The stats for homicide/suicide in homes with guns are about 5 times that of those of home without.

Sad story, my husband lost his shit when we broke up. If there was a gun in the house.......I can relate.

10 JRCMYP  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:22:16pm

Many women die in the situation that this woman survived. Guns in this instanced are used to manipulate, intimidate and make a man with a little, little dick feel like a big powerful dick.

I'm ready for some real conversation about gun control and legislation.

11 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:26:11pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

This is the voice of a woman who survived a situation that many, many women do not survive.

I'm too aware of that.

My wife's first husband got out of jail a couple of years ago for Murder 2. It should have been Murder 1 but he pled down. Gutted his victim like a deer.

There are still nights I have to calm her when she wakes up screaming.

Only the fact that I live in another country, and the fact that I'm pretty sure he's back in jail for he's too stupid and vicious to stay out of trouble for long, keeps me from constantly checking over my shoulder.

Also, my wife won't vote because of him. You have to register to vote and that information is publicly available. So abusers can and do use voter registration to track down ex-spouses.

12 Tigger2005  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:26:38pm

re: #3 Romantic Heretic

Good article.

I think the point she is making is that only responsible people should have access to firearms. Her father, her mother, even her boyfriend were aware of what could be done with a firearm, and were careful. The author herself is responsible.

Her abusive-ex was not, and she came that close to being a homicide statistic.

So she understands, emotionally, why firearms should be carefully regulated. Because irresponsible people should never, ever be able to hold a firearm in their hands.

I don't think you got her point at all. She's pretty clearly saying NOBODY (except the police and military) should have these kinds of weapons, no matter how "responsible" they are. Not even her mom and dad.

13 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:30:56pm

NRA Offers ‘Stand Your Ground’ Insurance To Cover Legal Costs Of Shooting People In Self-Defense

"My ex-wife was advancing on me in a threatening way, yr'honor."

14 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:33:30pm

re: #13 jaunte

NRA Offers ‘Stand Your Ground’ Insurance To Cover Legal Costs Of Shooting People In Self-Defense

"My ex-wife was advancing on me in a threatening way, yr'honor."

Lovely.

15 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:34:15pm

Many of these militia "home defense" whackos and nativists are just the sort of temperament to pull this evil bullshit. Here's an example:

[Link: blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...]

16 Tigger2005  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:34:34pm

re: #11 Romantic Heretic

I'm too aware of that.

My wife's first husband got out of jail a couple of years ago for Murder 2. It should have been Murder 1 but he pled down. Gutted his victim like a deer.

There are still nights I have to calm her when she wakes up screaming.

Only the fact that I live in another country, and the fact that I'm pretty sure he's back in jail for he's too stupid and vicious to stay out of trouble for long, keeps me from constantly checking over my shoulder.

Also, my wife won't vote because of him. You have to register to vote and that information is publicly available. So abusers can and do use voter registration to track down ex-spouses.

It's too bad there's no way to legally change your name that doesn't leave a trail. You would think they could have some kind of "witness protection lite" that makes it harder to track people by conventional methods...maybe not impossible, but requiring a lot of expenditure in time and resources (and hopefully alerting authorities in the process)

17 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:35:30pm

re: #13 jaunte

NRA Offers ‘Stand Your Ground’ Insurance To Cover Legal Costs Of Shooting People In Self-Defense

"My ex-wife was advancing on me in a threatening way, yr'honor."

And crap like this is why the NRA doesn't get any benefit of the doubt from me.

Until they change their act where it matters ($$$ and legislative pressure), I will regard them as part of the WIC (wingnut industrial complex).

18 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:36:48pm

re: #15 Randall Gross

Many of these militia "home defense" whackos and nativists are just the sort of temperament to pull this evil bullshit. Here's an example:

[Link: blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...]

[Link: www.findagrave.com...]

19 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:39:44pm

We see it every day. When you read the far-right blog comments some of them are always ready to start shooting. Their "second amendment remedies." If not they're fantasizing about stopping a crime. Ready to "stand their ground." Luckily they stay home a lot.

20 Kilroy01  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:41:32pm

Smart Gun
Making this mandatory on all new guns would at least mean only the owner could shot it. No more getting killed with your own gun. No kids killing themselves or others after finding dad's gun.

It won't fix the mass shooting but no more borrowing mom's guns to do it.

Of course the NRA hate it for paranoid reasons.

21 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:46:10pm

Uh oh. All the senior citizens fell asleep.

//

22 Belafon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:46:28pm

re: #12 Tigger2005

She was making that point: That really, anything other than a shotgun is not for self-defense, it's something more. And I agree with her on that. I have one gun in my house, a shotgun, and the only type of ammunition I have for it is birdshot.

23 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:48:28pm

re: #10 JRCMYP

Many women die in the situation that this woman survived. Guns in this instanced are used to manipulate, intimidate and make a man with a little, little dick feel like a big powerful dick.

I'm ready for some real conversation about gun control and legislation.

I am going to play the word games the repubs love so much. It is not gun control, it is gun regulation just like it specifies in the constitutional amendment they love so much.

24 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:52:07pm

I keep looking at the list of US school shootings on Wiki and maybe I'm crazy, but I personally think the argument in favor of gun-free zones is strengthened by looking at that list than weakened. If you narrow the search to 3 or more deaths (definition I heard of a "massacre" elsewhere) and to the years since the Gun Free Zone Act's passage in '94, one thing you don't see is any major cities. Cities that have schools that are practically demilitarized zones with chain-link fences, barred windows, bulletproof glass, metal detectors, and security cameras don't show up. The majority of incidents are colleges, which are generally not the best places to find emotionally stable people, and small town schools where the most security you'll find is locks on the outside doors and perhaps a camera or two. Hell, in one case involving 4 deaths in '98, the guns never even came on school property, because the shooters were sniping students from the woods.

25 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:54:37pm

re: #21 Gus

And what time you get up this morning?
/

26 Randall Gross  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:54:46pm

OT: but we could use some background

Keith Jarrett / Sapporo / 1976

27 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:55:15pm

I saw a picture of Olivia Engel. Newtown. The faucet went on again.

28 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:55:53pm

re: #25 researchok

And what time you get up this morning?
/

8:15. :D

29 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:56:03pm

re: #24 Targetpractice

The obvious solution is to make sure all teachers are fully trained and qualified to conduct anti-sniper operations.

30 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:56:35pm

re: #23 Eventual Carrion

I am going to play the word games the repubs love so much. It is not gun control, it is gun regulation just like it specifies in the constitutional amendment they love so much.

Another fun word game would be to go after the "well-regulated militia" part of the second amendment. Make gun ownership contingent on belonging to a well-regulated militia, training with it, and being subject to quasi military discipline.

Long hikes with heavy gear would work off some of that excess energy wingnuts seem to have.

31 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:57:10pm

re: #27 Gus

I wish I could ignore that.

I have a hard time looking at any of those images.

I can't help but see my daughter face when she was their age.

32 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:57:37pm

I heard the Peirres Morgan gun control interview on the radio today. Although I'm on his side his performance was embarrassing on par with something Chris Mathews would do. It's not like Morgan was unaware of what the guy was going to say. He should have been better prepared. He just came off rude and insulting. CNN, as the only moderate cable network left, should aim persuasive arguments towards undecideds. Just being a dick is counterproductive.

33 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:57:38pm

re: #28 Gus

Slacker!!!
//

34 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:59:02pm

re: #33 researchok

Slacker!!!
//

Principal Strickland, is that you?

//

35 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 6:59:36pm

re: #34 Targetpractice

Busted.
/

36 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:00:56pm

According to Wingnuts, Teachers must:

1) Lead children in prayers during class
2) Teach multiple discredited scientific theories and historical interpretations
3) Be fully trained in close quarter battle and firearms
4) Not make a living wage
5) not form unions to negotiate for their salary and benefits

37 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:02:05pm

6) Be willing to charge a gunman like a Viking Berserker who has been smoking opium

38 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:03:28pm

re: #28 Gus

You're watching Indian traffic videos aren't you?

39 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:04:06pm

re: #33 researchok

Slacker!!!
//

As an atheist it just sets me aghast. That a life could be wiped away like this. Not chance to have been even middle aged. The beginning of what was going to be their earliest memories. To be ended in such a horrific manner. That's what pisses me off too. I see no redemption. No promise land. To kill another human is the highest of moral wrong.

40 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:04:09pm

re: #37 Kragar

6) Be willing to charge a gunman like a Viking Beserker whose been smoking opium

7) Continue to be the whipping boys for anti-government assholes

41 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:05:26pm

re: #39 Gus

Can't possibly add to that

42 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:06:15pm

re: #38 researchok

You're watching Indian traffic videos aren't you?

Let me think. Watched some whacky people on Youtube last. Some really creepy stuff on Liveleak. It's always a good idea to not ride a bicycle or motorcycle around heavy truck traffic. Be aware of your surroundings. That and a day and night Harrier ops video(s) on the USS Wasp.

43 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:08:36pm

On another blog that I read, which is populated by a crowd of wingnut commenters, I happened to come across this gem among the garbage:

"one nation under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance by a Republican administration.

Unlike many of the readers/participants on this forum, this observant misnagid [non-Hasidic] Jew grew up outside of New York and attended public school. My elementary school of 550 pupils and 25 staff was 90% Jewish and in the 1950s and early 1960s we were forced to start the school day with MANDATORY school prayer, christian prayer. We young children were coerced to participate and staff was threatened with dismissal if they did not both participate and discipline students who abstained from the orayer. I had a courageous first grade teacher who used to take the entire class, which was 100% Jewish for bathroom breaks during the morning announcements so we wouldn't be subjected to the prayer over the loudspeaker.

The day the US Supreme Court made school prayer unconstitutional was the most liberating day of my life.

In the early 1980s I taught public high school for two years, on loan from my company to the school system. The system experimented with a moment of silence. Some evangelicals used this as an opportunity to pass out 'suggested' silent prayers/meditations/readings for students to use.

44 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:09:38pm

re: #42 Gus

I'm engaging in avoidance behavior- because with 300 plus million guns out there, not a damn thing will change until we change the culture.

We need a lot more shame in this (broken) guilt culture.

The school shooting thing has me in knots on so many levels.

45 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:12:29pm

re: #44 researchok

I'm engaging in avoidance behavior- because with 300 plus million guns out there, not a damn thing will change until we change the culture.

We need a lot more shame in this (broken) guilt culture.

The school shooting thing has me in knots on so many levels.

I've lived in Colorado for over 20 years. I always assume anyone can have a gun. I remember hitch hiking in NJ and once this dude who picked me up was like "I always give hitch hikers a ride" and that he wasn't worried. And there was this Silver .45 in holster next to steering wheel. We were like, OK. I was with a friend and we actually thought that was cool. Oh well, got to where we were going. 1978.

46 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:14:17pm

re: #39 Gus

As an atheist it just sets me aghast. That a life could be wiped away like this. Not chance to have been even middle aged. The beginning of what was going to be their earliest memories. To be ended in such a horrific manner. That's what pisses me off too. I see no redemption. No promise land. To kill another human is the highest of moral wrong.

"It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."

--Unforgiven

47 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:14:41pm

Decorum is about shame.

Manners are about shame.

Respect for parents, family and friends is about shame- and these are all good things which encourage good behavior.

I could on and on, but if Lanza had considered what he wanted to do would shame and humiliate his family forever, he might not have done it.

When I was a kid, I had an opportunity to cheat on some exam in school. I didn't out of fear I might get busted and humiliate my parents.

48 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:15:31pm

re: #45 Gus

1978- how many lifetimes ago was that?

49 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:17:01pm

re: #9 Stanghazi

{{{Stanley}}} So, so glad you are good, now.

50 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:18:35pm

re: #1 ReamWorks SKG

You may have saved his life by insisting he face consequences for an action.

51 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:21:31pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

Phone hacker Morgan is a dick.

52 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:23:12pm

I'm not pining for yesterday.

I just believe in many ways real self esteem is best defined as selfless esteem- what we do for others, how we treat them is really what defines us.

You know who tries to get that message across? Obama. And that is one of the reasons I really like the guy.

The GOP is just pissed he isn't like them and their self serving phony piety, look-at-me-self esteem bullshit.

53 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:24:44pm

Rabbi slams Christian right’s reaction to Newtown as the ‘ultimate statement of heresy’

“The fact is that is the ultimate statement of heresy,” he said on CNN. “This is not a religious man.”

Numerous figures on the Christian right, including James Dobson and Mike Huckabee, have linked the horrific mass killing of 20 young children to issues such as prayer in school, abortion and same sex marriage. They claim these issues prove the United States no longer respects God.

“Let’s be clear,” Boteach said. “Not only is he [Bryan Fischer] wrong that we kicked God out of our lives, the United States and the American people are the most righteous people in the world.”

“We have spent endless blood and treasure to defend complete strangers, women from being beaten up by the Taliban. Our soldiers died for those people. God is one our money. We give more charity than any nation on earth. We deserve better. I am tired of people maligning the American people and saying we deserve to suffer, we’ve kicked God out. This is the most religious country in the Western world.”

Boteach believes in a “theology of defiance” and that Americans should be holding God accountable.

“You know, the word ‘Israel’ literally translates as ‘he who challenges God’ and, if you look at the great stories of the Bible — yeah, the great stories of the Bible, like God says to Abraham, I’m going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. He challenges God. He says, you are? But you’re the judge of the whole earth. How could you judge people unrighteously? We’re supposed to be in a partnership with God to protect life. We’re not supposed to always defend tragedy and blame ourselves.”

54 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:25:57pm

re: #48 researchok

1978- how many lifetimes ago was that?

55 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:27:26pm

re: #53 Kragar

Boteach does like to find the hot spots.

56 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:28:33pm

re: #47 researchok

Decorum is about shame.

Manners are about shame.

Respect for parents, family and friends is about shame- and these are all good things which encourage good behavior.

I could on and on, but if Lanza had considered what he wanted to do would shame and humiliate his family forever, he might not have done it.

When I was a kid, I had an opportunity to cheat on some exam in school. I didn't out of fear I might get busted and humiliate my parents.

At first I wanted to point out that a guy who kills his own mother probably isn't ever going to worry about what happens to his family, but on the other hand... What if he killed his mother because of what she'd think of him after his little terrorist episode? He planned to end it the way he did, obviously, but on the off-chance that he was stopped by police action and remained alive, he might have realized that his mother would be ashamed of him.

Unless the boffins get something readable off of his computer's hard drive, we'll never know what the heck was squirming in his brain. I'm also assuming that his relationship with his mother had at least a small degree of normality at one time... Who the hell knows... But it's a thought.

57 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:30:50pm

re: #53 Kragar

Wow.

Like him or not, Boteach makes a point.

58 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:31:02pm

re: #53 Kragar

Rabbi slams Christian right’s reaction to Newtown as the ‘ultimate statement of heresy’

Sometimes I miss considering myself Jewish. One of the things I love, love, love about Judaism: No matter what, there's always somebody who will walk up to Consensus, get in its face, and go "PTTTHHHHHHPPPPHT!"

I can't share his faith anymore, but I appreciate the thought.

59 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:31:05pm

re: #49 prairiefire

{{{Stanley}}} So, so glad you are good, now.

All good. He's good. Laptop destroyed, only physical loss.

60 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:31:53pm

re: #56 Pawn of the Oppressor

You're right- we'll never ever know.

But one way or the other, we have real cultural issues which must be dealt with.

61 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:32:33pm
62 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:33:14pm

re: #58 Pawn of the Oppressor

Sometimes I miss considering myself Jewish. No matter what, there's always somebody who will walk up to Consensus, get in its face, and go "PTTTHHHHHHPPPPHT!"

I can't share his faith anymore, but I appreciate the thought.

I'm a devout agnostic, but if I had to pick a faith, Judaism would be close to the top.

63 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:33:24pm

re: #54 Gus

LOL

I can here my dad yelling down the hallway now...

'TURN THAT BLOODY CRAP OFF!'

64 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:34:30pm

re: #45 Gus

I've lived in Colorado for over 20 years. I always assume anyone can have a gun. I remember hitch hiking in NJ and once this dude who picked me up was like "I always give hitch hikers a ride" and that he wasn't worried. And there was this Silver .45 in holster next to steering wheel. We were like, OK. I was with a friend and we actually thought that was cool. Oh well, got to where we were going. 1978.

In another discussion an acquaintance pointed out that in the 1930s, the Corps at Texas A&M were required to keep their (working) rifle in their dorms and there were no problems of note. (there were problems. Just not what you'd expect given these days' experiences.)

I've come to believe it - and our similar Colorado experience - lies in the urban/rural division. In rural areas firearms are used and used a fair amount. The people who had them and were around them knew what they could do - they hunted, they saw dead rats and coyotes and deer and pheasants and all the rest. You could also take the time to shoot in a lot of places, learning to use them and teaching your kids, without worrying about the bullets traveling into the house next door or even just down the street. Well, you did, but you had plenty of places to go where you didn't.

As we get more urban there are fewer and fewer calls for the use of a threshing flail or a firearm. They become symbols, they become hobbies. Not tools but toys.

Just my suspicion, I guess.

65 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:34:43pm

Meanwhile, the derpening continues in Fischer's latest drivel

Bryan Fischer: "I am indebted to historian David Barton and his excellent book, The Second Amendment: Preserving the Inalienable Right of Individual Self-Protection, for much of the historical material in this column."

66 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:35:36pm

re: #65 Kragar

'Stupid is a commodity given out by God in great abundance'

67 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:37:05pm

The three most common things in the Universe: Hydrogen, Stupidity, and Wasted Potential.

/me, tying together several sayings from famous people

68 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:38:12pm

re: #64 kirkspencer

It's not just the gun.

69 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:39:43pm

Im starten a comitey to fite the new librury. We need to say no to the evul liberul book lernin!

My comitey aplicashun!

70 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:40:12pm

Oh and hey Prairie. Hope all is well, & you & your fam is going to have a very happy holiday!

71 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:40:52pm
"These are hollow-points," he exclaimed. "They're meant for piercing armor."

More knowledgeable lizards can correct me on this, but I thought hollow points were designed to maximize tissue damage, and pretty much the opposite of armor-piercing, no?

72 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:42:08pm

re: #71 Four More Tears

More knowledgeable lizards can correct me on this, but I thought hollow points were designed to maximize tissue damage, and pretty much the opposite of armor-piercing, no?

Yes.

73 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:43:09pm

re: #71 Four More Tears

They're meant for blowing as large a hole as possible through the flesh of the target.

74 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:43:55pm
75 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:44:05pm

re: #71 Four More Tears

More knowledgeable lizards can correct me on this, but I thought hollow points were designed to maximize tissue damage, and pretty much the opposite of armor-piercing, no?

Hollow points are intended to expand inside a meaty target, with the primary result being a large, ragged wound cavity and the secondary result being transfer of ballistic energy. The secondary result is probably negligible.

76 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:44:25pm

re: #71 Four More Tears

More knowledgeable lizards can correct me on this, but I thought hollow points were designed to maximize tissue damage, and pretty much the opposite of armor-piercing, no?

Yep. Stupid line from cop -- or misremembering by author. (But the picture is indeed a hollowpoint.)

77 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:44:26pm

re: #71 Four More Tears

More knowledgeable lizards can correct me on this, but I thought hollow points were designed to maximize tissue damage, and pretty much the opposite of armor-piercing, no?

Correct. The man is a fucking idiot.

78 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:44:27pm

This has been said by others, but it holds true;

We farm out elder care.

We farm out funerary practices.

We don't eat meals together.

The play now means less human interaction.

'Friends' now means facebook likes.

I could go on but after a few beers, it is probably best I don't.

Our culture is redefining what it means to be human.

79 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:44:33pm

re: #73 jaunte

They're meant for blowing as large a hole as possible through the flesh of the target.

Yeah, breaking up on impact. Thought that looked weird.

80 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:45:44pm

North Carolina Tea Party Group Hosts ‘Great Gun Giveaway’ Before All Newtown Victims Are Even Buried

Since the tragic shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, gun advocates have, by and large, wisely kept out of the spotlight. Even the National Rifle Association, hardly a bastion of liberal thinking, was self-aware enough to temporarily suspend their social media accounts and exercise restraint before finally issuing a statement four days after the tragedy.

The Asheville Tea Party has no such moral quandaries. On Monday, the group posted a flyer for a fundraiser they are calling “The Great Gun Giveaway.” They link back to a donate page where supporters can enter for a chance to win one of two semi-automatic guns, a .22 magnum handgun and an AR-15 assault rifle with two 30-round clips.

If that second gun sounds at all familiar, it’s probably because the same gun was used in Newtown to murder 20 children and six others less than a week ago.

81 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:47:55pm

re: #71 Four More Tears

More knowledgeable lizards can correct me on this, but I thought hollow points were designed to maximize tissue damage, and pretty much the opposite of armor-piercing, no?

You're right. The cop was ignorant, and that statement is factually incorrect. I wasn't going to bring it up, though, as the point of the article was to illustrate the terror and fear inflicted with firearms.

The truth is worse than "piercing armor", though. Open-nosed bullets are meant to expand as they pass through tissue, tearing a bigger hole and inflicting more trauma than a regular solid bullet. A gun is fundamentally just a hole-puncher, and hollow points are an "innovation" designed to make bigger holes.

82 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:48:15pm

re: #80 Kragar

North Carolina Tea Party Group Hosts ‘Great Gun Giveaway’ Before All Newtown Victims Are Even Buried

I'm starting to think guns are the Golden Calf of this era in American history.

83 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:48:46pm

re: #80 Kragar

North Carolina Tea Party Group Hosts ‘Great Gun Giveaway’ Before All Newtown Victims Are Even Buried

Jeezus Jet-Skiing Christ. What the fucking fuckity fuck is wrong with people...?

84 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:49:45pm

re: #82 Four More Tears

Garry Wills: Our Moloch

85 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:49:46pm

re: #81 Pawn of the Oppressor

You're right. The cop was ignorant, and that statement is factually incorrect. I wasn't going to bring it up, though, as the point of the article was to illustrate the terror and fear inflicted with firearms.

The truth is worse than "piercing armor", though. Open-nosed bullets are meant to expand as they pass through tissue, tearing a bigger hole and inflicting more trauma than a regular solid bullet. A gun is fundamentally just a hole-puncher, and hollow points are an "innovation" designed to make bigger holes.

IIRC they can also be safer in some ways, like not ricocheting or going through most walls. I think that was the reason the NYPD said it switched to them years ago.

86 efuseakay  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:50:06pm

re: #20 Kilroy01

Smart Gun
Making this mandatory on all new guns would at least mean only the owner could shot it. No more getting killed with your own gun. No kids killing themselves or others after finding dad's gun.

It won't fix the mass shooting but no more borrowing mom's guns to do it.

Of course the NRA hate it for paranoid reasons.

Just wrap some aluminum foil around the handle. Seriously.

87 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:50:41pm

re: #84 jaunte

Garry Wills: Our Moloch

One of these days I'll have an original thought...

88 efuseakay  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:51:25pm

re: #78 researchok

This has been said by others, but it holds true;

We farm out elder care.

We farm out funerary practices.

We don't eat meals together.

The play now means less human interaction.

'Friends' now means facebook likes.

I could go on but after a few beers, it is probably best I don't.

Our culture is redefining forgetting what it means to be human.

ftfy

89 allegro  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:52:56pm

re: #81 Pawn of the Oppressor

The truth is worse than "piercing armor", though. Open-nosed bullets are meant to expand as they pass through tissue, tearing a bigger hole and inflicting more trauma than a regular solid bullet. A gun is fundamentally just a hole-puncher, and hollow points are an "innovation" designed to make bigger holes.

I was told by a trauma surgeon of my acquaintance that the bullets explode leaving sharp metal edges that become dangers to surgeons as well. The sharp metal edges can slice through surgical gloves putting the surgeon at risk.

90 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:53:17pm

re: #1 ReamWorks SKG

It was a fascinating essay, but I'm disturbed by this:

I know she was young then, but allowing a maniac to go unpunished is simply wrong.

I was once assaulted by a 17-year-old. The police discouraged me from pressing charges because they said it'll just disappear when he turns 18. (Even though it was a good case, witnesses, and a confession to the Police.) I pressed ahead anyway. I refused to let him and his parents explain it way as a one-time "fluke" by an otherwise good kid. I figured if he assaulted me (by throwing an object from his car and hitting me as I was walking to Friday services at my synagogue), he probably does this to others.

(Unfortunately, the police were correct, he turned 18, went to Dartmouth, and didn't suffer at all because of it.)

You never know. These things can add up. If the kid was smart enough to figure that out, your pressing the matter may have turned his life around.

If he kept it up, sealed records have a way of not being really sealed, and the next victim may get hints to the effect that he should press ahead.

The threat of getting caught and being punished has weight in the minds of many who obey, or break, the law as seems most likely to "work".

91 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:55:31pm

More from Garry Wills:

The gun is not a mere tool, a bit of technology, a political issue, a point of debate. It is an object of reverence. Devotion to it precludes interruption with the sacrifices it entails. Like most gods, it does what it will, and cannot be questioned. Its acolytes think it is capable only of good things. It guarantees life and safety and freedom. It even guarantees law. Law grows from it. Then how can law question it?

Its power to do good is matched by its incapacity to do anything wrong. It cannot kill. Thwarting the god is what kills. If it seems to kill, that is only because the god’s bottomless appetite for death has not been adequately fed. The answer to problems caused by guns is more guns, millions of guns, guns everywhere, carried openly, carried secretly, in bars, in churches, in offices, in government buildings. Only the lack of guns can be a curse, not their beneficent omnipresence.
[Link: www.nybooks.com...]

92 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:56:50pm

re: #91 jaunte

More from Garry Wills:

Rubs chin.

93 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:57:14pm

re: #81 Pawn of the Oppressor

A gun is fundamentally just a hole-puncher, and hollow points are an "innovation" designed to make bigger holes.

Technically, a "gun" is a projector of some mass.

The evolution of human culture has gone crudely thusly:

1. throwing stones
2. throwing spears
3. throwing spears with stones tied to the front
4. throwing spears with stones tied to the front through the use of stored energy (e.g., the string of a bow.)
5. throwing of stones via the conversion of chemical energy potential into kinetic energy (gunpowder.)
6. throwing of stones via EMF (e.g. rail guns.)

Anyway, by increasing the cross section of the "stone" - in this case the hollow point bullet - one will destroy a large cross section of the surface and near-surface of the target.

If you want to "pierce" the target one makes the "stone" out of a hard (not easily deformable) material for the front or shell, and possibly cover it with a lubricant (teflon, low melting point metal, etc.)

Anyway, all of these things are created with one purpose in mind - to kill others. To pretend otherwise is just that - pretending.

94 kirkspencer  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:57:59pm

re: #88 efuseakay

ftfy

Disagree.

I'm long term unemployed. My neighbors and the people I've been around physically - church, hobbies, etc - pretty much cold-shouldered me. (I'm a yankee in the south. The open statement was, "now you can quit being a damn yankee.")

I've received a great deal of help and support from my online friends, most of whom I have never seen (and some of those I've seen coming after multiple years of shared communication).

Forgetting to be human? No, I'm with researchok on this. We're just redefining it.

95 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:59:27pm

re: #59 Stanghazi

All good. He's good. Laptop destroyed, only physical loss.

My crazy first husband knew I was afraid he would smash all of our awesome Dansk stoneware and Waterford crystal. When we finally met at the house, several months after I had fled (two black plastic trash bags of essentials in hand), he said "See, it's all still here." And I do have it today. Those items and a Sicilian red sauce recipe were the best things I got out of that marriage.

96 Mich-again  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 7:59:56pm

re: #11 Romantic Heretic

Also, my wife won't vote because of him. You have to register to vote and that information is publicly available. So abusers can and do use voter registration to track down ex-spouses.

That is disturbing. I wonder how many others have the same motivation to not vote.

97 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:01:02pm

re: #45 Gus

I've lived in Colorado for over 20 years. I always assume anyone can have a gun. I remember hitch hiking in NJ and once this dude who picked me up was like "I always give hitch hikers a ride" and that he wasn't worried. And there was this Silver .45 in holster next to steering wheel. We were like, OK. I was with a friend and we actually thought that was cool. Oh well, got to where we were going. 1978.

I once had a bicycle accident, fender bender but the thing wouldn't go any more, while on a cross country ride. In the days before cell phones, the only thing for it was to approach a farm house some distance off the highway and ask somebody there to phone my wife who could then drive up to where I'd got to and give me a lift.

I didn't look all that reputable, what with being scraped up, dirty, dusty, and tired. When the door opened I was greeted by four: the German shepherd, the first barrel, the second barrel, and the lady of the house.

It seemed entirely reasonable to me, and I was glad she had enough firepower to feel safe enough around me to entertain my request. In the end, it turned out the husband was due home shortly and they gave me a ride to my destination.

Guns, per se, don't bother me. Everything depends on who has the gun and what they've got in mind.

98 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:02:08pm
99 Minor_L  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:04:08pm

I can't believe the nasty comments over there. Someone is deleting them, but I have seen some of them. Being all over the internet posting all kinds of terrible things (which mostly amount to saying, "my guns are more important than your life") is really doing nothing for the gun nuts' reputations.

Gun culture is like a religion for some people. I had some inkling that was the case, but I didn't know the depth of it.

100 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:04:20pm

re: #93 freetoken

Sure. I was just thinking in terms of how the killing happens, more than how the weapon itself works: punch holes in the body to destroy brain function through immediate catastrophic trauma or rapid blood loss.

I keep thinking of the scene from Terminator 2 where the T-800 and young John Connor are watching the kids play-shoot at one another.

"We're not going to make it, are we?"
"It is in your nature to destroy yourselves."

101 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:04:45pm

re: #70 Stanghazi

Oh and hey Prairie. Hope all is well, & you & your fam is going to have a very happy holiday!

{{{HUGS}}} you as well, sweetie.

102 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:05:11pm

I see that Coulter is trotting out the old Landes and Lott study to support the claim that the only thing that can be done about mass shootings is to get more people to carry concealed guns.

It'll never stop.

103 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:07:35pm

re: #5 Tigger2005

It's really tiresome, all these people trying to argue that the Second Amendment gives them the right to own whatever deadly toys they want and screw the social contract.

And that has nothing to do with the subject of this article. This wasn't about a social contract, or even about guns: It was about a man who thought he had the right to control someone else.

As for the woman's emotional reactions to firearms, I do not understand said reactions and cannot relate to them at all.

104 Tigger2005  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:09:40pm

re: #78 researchok

This has been said by others, but it holds true;

We farm out elder care.

We farm out funerary practices.

We don't eat meals together.

The play now means less human interaction.

'Friends' now means facebook likes.

I could go on but after a few beers, it is probably best I don't.

Our culture is redefining what it means to be human.

I have been saying a lot of things on FB lately that are probably pissing off people I know, but I really don't care. This is too important. I am making it clear that I find anyone who would defend possessing assault weapons in the wake of the slaughter of 20 children to be a heartless, inhuman bastard. It don't care if they have families, children, and are perfectly lovely, law abiding, gentle people. Frankly, that makes their defense of these weapons, at this point in time, even more horrifying. They need their hypocrisy exposed. They need to understand their thinking is warped. I WANT THEM TO FEEL SHAME AND GUILT, DAMMIT.

105 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:11:00pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

As for the woman's emotional reactions to firearms, I do not understand said reactions and cannot relate to them at all.

With all due respect, DF, I don't find that the least surprising.

106 Kilroy01  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:11:27pm

re: #86 efuseakay

Technology marches on. Today's biometrics are better than that. If it is matched to a palm print tinfoil won't spoof it. Of course there are always ways to foil safety systems, but most people don't. Also it could disable itself if tampered with by design or call the police with the guns location.
Think Onstar for your handgun...

Reliability is the one downside but even that can be overcome in time and it isn't like guns don't jam now.

107 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:13:11pm

re: #95 prairiefire

My crazy first husband knew I was afraid he would smash all of our awesome Dansk stoneware and Waterford crystal. When we finally met at the house, several months after I had fled (two black plastic trash bags of essentials in hand), he said "See, it's all still here." And I do have it today. Those items and a Sicilian red sauce recipe were the best things I got out of that marriage.

Horribly similar experience. Onward!

I'm out for the eve. Next time Prairie, please tell me how the Gays are making your Christmas sales so good!!! (I'll wait, but am very curious!)

Good night now!

108 BongCrodny  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:13:41pm

re: #78 researchok

This has been said by others, but it holds true;

We farm out elder care.

We farm out funerary practices.

We don't eat meals together.

The play now means less human interaction.

'Friends' now means facebook likes.

I could go on but after a few beers, it is probably best I don't.

Our culture is redefining what it means to be human.

In the early days of this country we hanged "witches" and pressed "warlocks" to death.

In the 18th and 19th centuries, we kept slaves and butchered Native Americans.

In the 20th century, we had lynchings. Gays were looked upon as deviants.

It's not all bad, y'know.

We're not perfect and we never will be.

109 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:13:42pm

re: #93 freetoken

Technically, a "gun" is a projector of some mass.

The evolution of human culture has gone crudely thusly:

1. throwing stones
2. throwing spears
3. throwing spears with stones tied to the front
4. throwing spears with stones tied to the front through the use of stored energy (e.g., the string of a bow.)
5. throwing of stones via the conversion of chemical energy potential into kinetic energy (gunpowder.)
6. throwing of stones via EMF (e.g. rail guns.)

Anyway, by increasing the cross section of the "stone" - in this case the hollow point bullet - one will destroy a large cross section of the surface and near-surface of the target.

If you want to "pierce" the target one makes the "stone" out of a hard (not easily deformable) material for the front or shell, and possibly cover it with a lubricant (teflon, low melting point metal, etc.)

Anyway, all of these things are created with one purpose in mind - to kill others. To pretend otherwise is just that - pretending.

Another way to look at, at least militarily is how many men do you need to control a selected area of land.

In ancient times, you would need an army of thousands to cover a front with sufficient force to guarantee control.

As military resources have advanced, the number has continued to decrease as the ability to project force has increased.

110 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:14:31pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

I guess you agree with the NRO on this?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

111 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:15:56pm

re: #106 Kilroy01

Technology marches on. Today's biometrics are better than that. If it is matched to a palm print tinfoil won't spoof it. Of course there are always ways to foil safety systems, but most people don't. Also it could disable itself if tampered with by design or call the police with the guns location.
Think Onstar for your handgun...

Reliability is the one downside but even that can be overcome in time and it isn't like guns don't jam now.

Those systems are far too vulnerable to electronic interference for my comfort. Some of the cartels down in Mexico already have gear powerful enough to jam RFID. I'd not like to have the weapon I need for home defense be inoperable because the attacked have a jammer. No, no mandate for that kind of high-tech measure is likely to be wise ever. However well the system is designed, there will always be a counter measure.

112 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:16:32pm

re: #109 Kragar

"Force multipliers" is an often used concept in military science.

In some ways, nearly all of our inventions are "force multipliers".

There's a new science paper out about how the human hand evolved in part to make fists for men to fight (over mates.) It's not without controversy among anthropologists, though.

Anyway, any weapons is in essence a force multiplier over the bare fist.

113 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:19:53pm

re: #110 Varek Raith

I guess you agree with the NRO on this?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ms. Allen is but one member of a symposium. I do not believe her understanding of the situation is realistic, no. But neither does she speak for the entirety of National Review, no more than a member of an NBC symposium could be assumed to speak for the entire network. (Though nutcases like Glenn would likely insist the person does speak for NBC, they are simply wrong.)

114 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:20:01pm

Wow.

115 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:20:13pm

re: #107 Stanghazi

My answer ~ nobody listened to them when they were 9 years old and said they wanted a doll for Christmas. Now that they are grown ups with their own money, they buy all the dolls they damn well please. Barbies, Monster High, high end Tonner collectibles. They are going to put a doll from Santa under their tree, damn it, and I am helping them do it!

116 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:21:06pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

You realize that mealy-mouthed construction can be used to ignore anything that NRO writes on the grounds it doesn't represent the entirety of NRO, right?

117 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:23:40pm

Collector's Special:
Insane conspiracy theory being emailed about, from one "shortlittlerebel" on wordpress:

Friends. I believe there is evidence of more than one shooter. I believe this was a PLANNED event- specifically to get the UN Small Arms Treaty signed. The father of the shooter is Peter Lanza, rumored to be scheduled to testify on the international LIBOR scandal. Guess who else is rumored to be scheduled to testify on the LIBOR scandal? Father of the BATMAN theater shooter. Amazing coincidence? We will see. The LIBOR scandal is a massive, worldwide network of banks, the Federal Reserve and highly position individuals such as Tim Geihtner and Ben Bernanke that are being accused of manipulating LIBOR rates to gain better market positions.
[snip]
I believe our GOVERNMENT shot those kids and teachers and used Adam Lanza and his family to pull it off. They might have killed two birds with one stone. One: If these men are involved in the LIBOR scandal, they can manipulate their testimony. Two: they get gun control. How very, very clever and efficient of them, right? I hate to say it. I hate to put myself ‘out there’ with this because I KNOW how I will be attacked. But I don’t do this for anyone’s approval. I do it to help the American People. You look at these links and you decide.

118 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:23:44pm

One problem with this "debate" is that both sides have illogical extremes. On one hand, real emotional terror at the very thought of guns existing, just real groundless fear of physical, inanimate things; on the other hand, an utter inability and unwillingness to even attempt to process rational evidence that having millions of guns floating around in society might be harmful, that our devotion to a juvenille fantasy "common defense" is definitely harming the general welfare in horrific, yet thoroughly quantifiable ways.

I'm turned off by hysterics. It's not "heartless" and "inhuman" to defend gun ownership after something like this. Tasteless and insensitive? Possibly, yes, depending on content and presentation. Why does taking up a position you don't like automatically render the other person monstrous? How do you know what they feel? Debates have two sides.

And again, for technicality's sake, that kid did not use an assault weapon, whatever that really is - all weapons are used to assault - it was a military-styled semi-automatic rifle. The other side will make it a point not to listen to you, if you indicate that you don't really understand the issue.

Edit: issue meaning, the technicalities. Technicalities are near and dear to a gun fanatic's heart, and the laws are made and broken on technicalities. You can own this but not that, this gun works one way and not the other, et cetera. The best solutions in this political climate are going to be technical, like a 10-round magazine capacity limit, national buy-back for high-capacity magazines, restricting/taxing ownership of certain makes of rifle, and so on.

119 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:25:04pm

David Barton Explains The Second Amendment

Barton insisted that the Founders called the Second Amendment "the biblical right of self defense" and crafted it to ensure that citizens could protect themselves again any and all threats, including the government, with equal firepower.

In Barton's view, whatever weapons the government possesses must also be available to the population at large because the citizens might one day need to resist the government, so this principle of "equal power ... has got to control the gun control debate":

I am now saving up for my own NBC arsenal.

120 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:26:09pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

Allen wrote her article, submitted it to the NRO editors, who decided it was fit for publishing. They approved her message, making it their message.

121 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:26:22pm

re: #119 Kragar

David Barton Explains The Second Amendment

I am now saving up for my own NBC arsenal.

You looking for kiloton or megaton yield?
I may even throw in a gigaton device at half off!

122 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:27:57pm

re: #121 Varek Raith

You looking for kiloton or megaton yield?
I may even throw in a gigaton device at half off!

Going neutron.

123 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:28:11pm

re: #116 Obdicut

You realize that mealy-mouthed construction can be used to ignore anything that NRO writes on the grounds it doesn't represent the entirety of NRO, right?

Varek asked if I agreed "with the [sic] NRO on this?" His question as worded relied on an invalid assumption, that being that Ms. Allen's view is that of NRO.

124 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:28:12pm

re: #119 Kragar

Barton is one of those who prefers to live in the 18th century, not the 21st. Modernity is too scary for him, and for many others, which is why he has had the success he's experienced.

125 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:28:59pm

re: #119 Kragar

"The biblical right of historical revision."

126 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:29:03pm

re: #120 Kragar

Allen wrote her article, submitted it to the NRO editors, who decided it was fit for publishing. They approved her message, making it their message.

Are all messages delivered at a symposium the message of the organization that hosts it?

127 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:33:45pm

re: #126 Dark_Falcon

Are all messages delivered at a symposium the message of the organization that hosts it?

The fact that NRO calls a section of their site a symposium has no bearing on the conversation.

You're saying that NRO has no editorial control over the content that appears on their site?

128 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:34:35pm

Charlotte Allen's views are quite different from those expressed by Anthony Daniels (who at other times writes under the pen name of Theodore Dalrymple) on the next page of the symposium article:

The perpetrators of mass killings seem to be maladjusted people with a grievance against life, sometimes crystallized by a relatively minor incident like being fired from work or rejected by a woman in a nightclub. Quite often they have been justly accused of what they have in fact done. One killer shot people in two brokerage firms (having first killed his wife and two children) after he had lost a lot of money day-trading. Presumably he thought that the opportunity to make a lot of money was actually the right to make a lot of money, a right that had just been denied him. (The right to pursue happiness has long since been replaced by the right to be happy.) Hence he revenged himself upon those who denied him his right.

Again, this is not to say that Ms. Arnold is right, this is to say that views quite different than hers were expressed during the symposium and thus her views should not be ascribed to National Review as a whole.

129 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:34:38pm

re: #127 Kragar

The fact that NRO calls a section of their site a symposium has no bearing on the conversation.

At least they don't call it a parrot.

130 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:35:05pm

How many white nationalists has NRO had to fire again???

131 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:35:44pm

re: #130 Varek Raith

How many white nationalists has NRO had to fire again???

Not as many as they have on staff apparently.

132 Varek Raith  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:36:57pm

re: #128 Dark_Falcon

You going to get walloped by snow?

133 Interesting Times  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:36:58pm

re: #126 Dark_Falcon

Don't you ever get sick of defending a disgusting rag like NRO, who publishes white supremacists until they get caught and AGW denier/bug-eyed birther Monckton?

134 Kilroy01  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:37:32pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

I suggest you stay away from modern cars then. Electric steering is basically drive by wire in many cases. Spoof the wheel sensor and you think you have a flat or jam the radar cruise control so the car stops. These systems are common on new (more expensive) cars and will only move down market in time. So far there hasn't been (to my knowledge) any jamming or spoofing going on.

As far as guns go I don't see burglars carrying around several different types of jammer (because how can he know what system the gun you has is using) and the power packs to run them. That and we all know how tech savvy most criminals are.

Now if jamming is possible I can see police having a team member carrying the gear during raids to cut down on return fire. But that is a long ways off as criminals won't be buying them.

Also, how do you jam a palm reader? It is a visual system. Simply compares your palm to a stored image. Just saying.

135 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:37:53pm

And while some here do not like Heather MacDonald, her words in the NRO symposium are also very different than those of Charlotte Arnold:

It is easy to mock the opportunistic overreaction to the Sandy Hook massacre, which comes not just from the Left but from the Right — I have heard proposals that every school have an armed adult in it. But if the pro-gun lobby argues the rarity of such mass shootings as one reason (among others) against further gun regulation, it cannot then use that same rare mass shooting as an argument for wider gun carrying. The call to put prayer back in the classroom is just as opportunistic. Moreover, it is safe to say that every official with the ACLU and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, as well as every non-deranged individual who attended a prayer-free school, understands that killing children is wrong.

136 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:38:08pm

re: #117 jaunte

On that note, someone who has either been taking far too much or not nearly enough of his meds has come up with an apparently sincere conspiracy theory around the Sandy Hook shooting that involves pro skateboarder Tony Hawk, actor John Goodman, Obama's 2008 campaign manger, and others.

EVENT was a DRILL. No children are dead. Stop believing these lies produced by the Greenberg family who just so happens to live close by on Flower Farm ln. You will see the business Hoffman contracting is registered to Tony Greenbergs Home at #12 Flower Farm ln. Look in that direction for clues to who is behind the scenes pulling the strings.

Also I have Identified the Governor and will be releasing his real identity shortly. 'This event is an attempt to divert your attention away form the identity of the recent Mall shooter. who is a family member and son of Joan Kaplan (AKA Morning Mayan on the Alex Jones Show) You can read more here.

This is all you need to know to show absolute proof what I'm saying is accurate and this was a drill where no one was killed/injured/ arrested, or shot at. NONE.

137 gwangung  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:38:09pm

re: #126 Dark_Falcon

Are all messages delivered at a symposium the message of the organization that hosts it?

If it edits it, it's theirs. If it goes out under their name, it's theirs.

Kinda basic.

138 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:38:11pm

re: #129 freetoken

At least they don't call it a parrot.

Ah, but what about a dead parrot ~

139 funky chicken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:38:43pm

re: #65 Kragar

Meanwhile, the derpening continues in Fischer's latest drivel

Bryan Fischer: "I am indebted to historian David Barton and his excellent book, The Second Amendment: Preserving the Inalienable Right of Individual Self-Protection, for much of the historical material in this column."

I wonder if Barton will throw him under the bus. That would be awesome.

140 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:38:51pm

It's spelled NRO Symposium, but it's pronounced 'NRO Throatwobbler Mangrove'.

141 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:39:14pm

re: #132 Varek Raith

You going to get walloped by snow?

I don't know. I was in transit or helping my mother shop most of today. I haven't heard any weather forecasts.

142 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:42:09pm

re: #136 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

On that note, someone who has either been taking far too much or not nearly enough of his meds has come up with an apparently sincere conspiracy theory around the Sandy Hook shooting that involves pro skateboarder Tony Hawk, actor John Goodman, Obama's 2008 campaign manger, and others.

Whoa.

/Neo

A real live crazy person on the internet.

Let's say that somebody implements my Cunning Plan™ of legalizing and taxing drugs, and then using the revenue to bring back the mental institution as a concept. Will they allow internet access for the mentally ill? Will these kinds of websites and postings go away forever?

143 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:42:40pm
144 bratwurst  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:42:51pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

I don't know. I was in transit or helping my mother shop most of today. I haven't heard any weather forecasts.

I am on top of it, as I am getting ready to travel on Friday. The bottom line seems to be that it is going to be mostly rain in our neighborhood until the second half of tomorrow. At that point, we have a chance to see something along the lines of 2-4 inches of snow accompanied by high winds. The longest snowless streak in recorded Chicago history is in serious jeopardy.

145 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:43:09pm

re: #131 Kragar

Not as many as they have on staff apparently.

Neither of the writers I have quoted is a white nationalist. And wrong as she was, Charlotte Arnold said nothing about race either.

146 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:44:05pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

Neither of the writers I have quoted is a white nationalist. And wrong as she was, Charlotte Arnold said nothing about race either.

Where did I state any of those writer were the ones I was talking about?

147 biorabbi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:45:16pm

In a sick way, gun makers cannot be complaining too much in recent weeks. I live in Arkansas in a highly gun centric locale. Even here, it appears folks are rushing out to buy their first gun, or more guns. There is a real fear that gun control with teeth is coming. This is leading to a marked upsurge in gun sales at least down here.

An analogy might be how the new Bin Laden takedown movie reportedly has a scene of water boarding and tortue early on in the movie. This is fueling outrage amongst Senators and Andrew Sullivan and other folks who were strongly anti-Cheney to protest. But you wonder if the filmaker made a decision to insert such a scene to stir up protest? I have not yet scene Bigalow's Bin Laden movie but the torture meme makes me more even more curious to see it.

148 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:45:25pm

re: #144 bratwurst

I am on top of it, as I am getting ready to travel on Friday. The bottom line seems to be that it is going to be mostly rain in our neighborhood until the second half of tomorrow. At that point, we have a chance to see something along the lines of 2-4 inches of snow accompanied by high winds. The longest snowless streak in recorded Chicago history is in serious jeopardy.

That's not entirely a bad thing, since I'd kind of like snow for Christmas. But there was a water main break few blocks from my house today, so I really hope that gets fixed before we have a freeze.

149 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:45:52pm

Traffic ~ Dear Mr. Fantasy ~

150 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:47:16pm

re: #146 Kragar

Where did I state any of those writer were the ones I was talking about?

You didn't specifically, but why else would you have pulled out that line?

151 biorabbi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:50:31pm

re: #147 biorabbi

The Bin Laden filmmaker had access to some intel sources on the Bin Laden raid that has been alluded to in the press. It is a point of contention that torture led to the Bin Laden kill. My understanding it that there is not a direct(or even indirect)linkage between torture and the Bin Laden kill. But the filmaker apparently inserted such an oblique linkage which creates the impression there was some linkage. My point being the filmakers can now sit back and eat the popcorn as Senators and the blogosphere way in on said linkage. While the NRA might be on the defensive, gun manufactures are reaping the profit.

152 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:52:06pm

re: #150 Dark_Falcon

You didn't specifically, but why else would you have pulled out that line?

Because NRO has an established history of employing, publishing and defending white nationalists.

153 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:53:51pm

Can a mouse climb a dandelion?

[Link: www.mymodernmet.com...]

154 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:11:09pm

re: #152 Kragar

Because NRO has an established history of employing, publishing and defending white nationalists.

Yep NRO deserves all the heat they get. Stop employing, publishing, and defending white nationalists and you'll get some slack but until then, they don't deserve credibility but scorn instead.

155 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:15:17pm

re: #154 HappyWarrior

Yep NRO deserves all the heat they get. Stop employing, publishing, and defending white nationalists and you'll get some slack but until then, they don't deserve credibility but scorn instead.

And that should extend to ascribing to all participants in a symposium the view of just one of them, even if they disagree with that other person? Because that isn't just 'not giving slack', that's deciding that an organization isn't to be given fair treatment at all.

156 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:18:00pm

Someone really seems to like the word symposium.

157 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:18:19pm

re: #153 jaunte

Can a mouse climb a dandelion?

[Link: www.mymodernmet.com...]

That reminds me of The Little Prince.

158 bratwurst  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:19:57pm

Maybe this is old news and I am just late to the party, but I nearly fell off my chair a moment ago when someone tweeted a product of this:

Thomas Friedman Op/Ed Generator

159 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:20:59pm

re: #156 Kragar

Someone really seems to like the word symposium.

How about 'confab' or 'discussion group'? All I'm saying is that in my mind it is not fair to ascribe the belief of one person in a group to others who have given no indication that they share it, and in at least one case actively disagree with it.

160 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:27:48pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

How about 'confab' or 'discussion group'? All I'm saying is that in my mind it is not fair to ascribe the belief of one person in a group to others who have given no indication that they share it, and in at least one case actively disagree with it.

Its an opinion section under the control of the NRO editorial staff. If they found the content objectionable, they wouldn't have published it. The fact they also published other opinions doesn't change the fact they did choose to publish the other content.

161 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:27:49pm

re: #155 Dark_Falcon

And that should extend to ascribing to all participants in a symposium the view of just one of them, even if they disagree with that other person? Because that isn't just 'not giving slack', that's deciding that an organization isn't to be given fair treatment at all.

But it's not just one of them. Derbyshire isn't the only white nationalist writer they've employed on their staff. And it's not like they give fair treatment to liberals so give me a break if I don't want to give legitimacy to a magazine that has shown that it's willing to publish the opinions of white nationalists as somehow being legitimate.

162 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:28:14pm

re: #160 Kragar

Its an opinion section under the control of the NRO editorial staff. If they found the content objectionable, they wouldn't have published it. The fact they also published other opinions doesn't change the fact they did choose to publish the other content.

Thank you, said it better than I could.

163 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:30:28pm

I'm seasoning my molcajete.

Not a euphemism.

164 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:31:47pm

re: #163 goddamnedfrank

I'm seasoning my molcajete.

Not a euphemism.

What is that, if I may ask?

165 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:32:05pm

Once I'd probably understand but this is a habit. I mean here's a link from here on LGF no less about the many writers for NRO that have White Nationalists connections. I don't think every person who has written for the publication is a white nationalist fwiw but I do reserve the right I feel given their history of publishing and employing white nationalists on their staff to feel wary of them and their opinions.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

166 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:32:51pm

SD teen dies in shooting after paintball argument

A 16-year-old boy fatally shot his friend with a shotgun after the pair argued over a paintball game and playfully wrestled at the boy's home in South Dakota, according to an arrest affidavit released Wednesday.

The victim, Dalton Williams of Pierre, was found lying in the entryway of the accused shooter's house around 5:30 p.m. Tuesday with a gunshot wound to the chest. Paramedics rushed the high school sophomore to a nearby hospital, but he later died.

167 Interesting Times  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:33:01pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

How about 'confab' or 'discussion group'? All I'm saying is that in my mind it is not fair to ascribe the belief of one person in a group to others who have given no indication that they share it, and in at least one case actively disagree with it.

You can dance around and make excuses for them all you want, but nothing's going to change the fact that national review is a vile, disgusting, and evil organization.

168 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:34:06pm

re: #166 jaunte

SD teen dies in shooting after paintball argument

But an armed society is a polite society! Or some bullshit.

169 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:34:11pm

[Link: www.weather.com...]

Apparently there are buckets of snow headed our way.

170 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:34:11pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

What is that, if I may ask?

Mexican mortar and pestle, made from volcanic rock. Good for making salsas, guacamole, and serving foods that need to remain hot, like fondues.

171 Mich-again  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:34:41pm

Here is the Bill that would have allowed concealed weapons in schools, churches, sports events, etc that Michigan Governor Rick Snyder vetoed today. ALEC interns spent a helluva lot of time putting all of that gobbleygook together, and if Adam Lanza had not committed mass murder the next day, it would be law by now. Rubber stamp Rick lucked out that they didn't drop this steaming turd on his desk a week earlier.

Enrolled Senate Bill No. 59.

(i) Except as provided in subsection (6), the individual is a licensee or is applying for an initial or renewal license or
an exemption under this subdivision who provides a certificate indicating on its face that the individual has completed
not less than 8 hours of training in addition to the training required under sections 5b(7)(c) and 5j that satisfies all of
the following conditions:
(A) It includes both classroom and range time.
(B) It includes the firing of not fewer than an additional 94 rounds.
(C) It focuses on the training principles described in section 5b(7)(c) as they apply to public places and premises
listed in subsection (1) as limited under subsection (4).
(D) It is provided by an agency of this state or by a national or state firearms training organization.
(E) The training instructor is certified as a firearms instructor by this state or by a national or state firearms
training organization and is eligible under section 5j to provide training under section 5b(7)(c).
(F) The training is completed not more than 5 years immediately preceding the date of application for an original or
renewal license or an exemption under this subdivision.
(ii) The individual is certified as a firearms instructor by this state or by a national or state firearms training
organization, and is eligible under section 5j to provide training under section 5b(7)(c). It is prima facie evidence that
the individual is eligible for an exemption under this subparagraph if the individual possesses a certificate as a firearms
instructor issued by this state or by a national or state firearms training organization that meets the requirements of
section 5j.
(6) If an individual was granted an exemption from this section and the individual is applying for a renewal license
with an exception, the educational requirements under subsection (5)(k)(i) are waived except that the applicant shall
certify that he or she has completed at least 3 hours of review of the training required under subsection (5)(k)(i). For
an individual who is a firearms instructor eligible to provide training under section 5b(7)(c), the educational requirements 18
ESB 59
under subsection (5)(k)(i) are waived except that the applicant shall certify that he or she has completed at least 3 hours
of review of the training required to become a firearms instructor under section 5b(7)(c). The educational requirements
of this subsection are met if the applicant certifies on the renewal application form that he or she has complied with the
requirements of this subsection. The licensing authority shall not otherwise require verification of the statements made
under this subsection and shall not require an applicant to obtain a certificate or undergo training other than as required
by this subsection.

This is a very small sampling of that Bill. And which group always bitches we already have too many gun laws??

172 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:38:32pm

re: #168 HappyWarrior

"Paintball argument."

Louis XIV had Ultima Ratio Regum ("the last argument of kings") cast on his cannons;
now even regular folks don't need an actual argument, just a firearm.

173 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:39:03pm

re: #170 goddamnedfrank

Mexican mortar and pestle, made from volcanic rock. Good for making salsas, guacamole, and serving foods that need to remain hot, like fondues.

You're just trying to put good hard working American mortars and pestles out of a job, you bastard!

174 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:39:30pm

re: #170 goddamnedfrank

Mexican mortar and pestle, made from volcanic rock. Good for making salsas, guacamole, and serving foods that need to remain hot, like fondues.

Can you use it to cement a loose paving stone back into place as well?

/Not sarc or an insult.

175 jaunte  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:43:17pm

Big gun keep on rollin'

Monica Avila, a 34-year-old Denver mother, is facing charges for allegedly bringing a gun to a middle school and threatening students who may have bullied her daughter.
[Link: blogs.westword.com...]

176 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:44:14pm

re: #174 Dark_Falcon

Can you use it to cement a loose paving stone back into place as well?

/Not sarc or an insult.

It's for making food. Seasons like an old cast iron frying pan, developing it's own flavor and imparting it to the dishes you make in it.

Related Pro Tip: the new cast iron pans suck, don't even bother. They've got some kind of a bumpy texture that fucks their shit up. No matter how long you season them they'll never get that kind of non-stick surface your great grandmother's pan had. The good vintage stuff is on Ebay, has a machined flat surface.

177 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:44:48pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

Ms. Allen is but one member of a symposium. I do not believe her understanding of the situation is realistic, no. But neither does she speak for the entirety of National Review, no more than a member of an NBC symposium could be assumed to speak for the entire network. (Though nutcases like Glenn would likely insist the person does speak for NBC, they are simply wrong.)

Others have already commented on the fallacy of your reasoning here. Yes, Allen is but one writer for the NR, but the editors of said publication approve and often alter (you know, edit) whatever writers submit to make sure it suits the style/message/politics of the publication. In other words, the editors want the writers' work to be consistent with the overall "mission" of the NR.

So, yes, in that regard, Allen is representing the opinions of the NRO.

Likewise, a freelance writer chooses the recipients of his or her submitted work based on the likelihood it will be accepted, or at least reviewed. I doubt Allen would have much luck if she'd submitted her screed to the Atlantic Monthly, for example.

178 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:45:30pm

Point is, I cook. Ladies, take note.

179 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:48:14pm

re: #178 goddamnedfrank

Point is, I cook. Ladies, take note.

My father used that same ability as a value point as well. And he ended up marrying my mother, so I can't knock it.

180 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:49:36pm

re: #176 goddamnedfrank

Wrench wench knows all about vintage cast iron. re: #178 goddamnedfrank

Point is, I cook. Ladies, take note.

Oh, a highly evolved male.

181 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:49:45pm

Freezing cold.

182 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:50:38pm

re: #181 Gus

Freezing cold.

Hey, did you get snow today?

183 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:51:59pm

re: #176 goddamnedfrank

I think the stores that cater to Amish have the really good Lodge pans. I bought a giant 15" fry pan at a store in NE Indiana years ago. Best investment ever.

184 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:52:03pm

re: #182 prairiefire

Hey, did you get snow today?

Yes. It's like fucking zero right now. Not much snow. Freaking cold. This sucks.

185 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:53:49pm

re: #184 Gus

Yep. Any lizards with experience with Lexipro? I just got a prescription. I'm hoping for no side effects.

186 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:57:00pm

Breaking: this "economy sucks."

187 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:58:00pm

re: #185 prairiefire

Yep. Any lizards with experience with Lexipro? I just got a prescription. I'm hoping for no side effects.

[Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...]

Possible side effects
Summary More details
Call your doctor right away if you notice any of these side effects:

Allergic reaction: Itching or hives, swelling in your face or hands, swelling or tingling in your mouth or throat, chest tightness, trouble breathing

Blistering, peeling, or red skin rash.

Change in how much or how often you urinate, or painful urination.

Chest pain or shortness of breath.

Confusion, weakness, or muscle twitching.

Fast, pounding, or uneven heartbeat.

Fever, chills, cough, sore throat, and body aches.

Painful, prolonged erection of the penis.

Swelling in your hands, ankles, or feet.

Unusual behavior or thoughts of hurting yourself or others.

Unusual bleeding or bruising.
If you notice these less serious side effects, talk with your doctor:

Dry mouth.

Headache, dizziness, or drowsiness.

Nausea, diarrhea, constipation, or upset stomach.

Problems with sex.

Runny or stuffy nose.

Sweating.

Tiredness.

Trouble with sleeping.

If you notice other side effects that you think are caused by this medicine, tell your doctor.

Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects. You may report side effects to FDA at 1-800-FDA-1088.

188 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:59:11pm

Possible side effects

Call your doctor right away if you notice any of these side effects:

Death

//

189 prairiefire  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 9:59:16pm

re: #187 Kragar

You are such a sweetie. I'll have to keep track of my penis./
My hubby has self diagnosed with a personality disorder. Time for him to see see a shrink as well.

190 Mich-again  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:03:15pm

Silent but deadly concealed weapons..

AN ACT to amend 1927 PA 372, entitled “An act to regulate and license the selling, purchasing, possessing, and carrying of certain firearms, gas ejecting devices, and electro-muscular disruption devices;

191 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:04:14pm

re: #182 prairiefire

Hey, did you get snow today?

There is a front blowing in..every couple of minutes some hard core winds blast though here. Winston is tucked into bed with his little pillow next to dad. I guess we get snow tonight..

192 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:04:47pm

re: #190 Mich-again

Silent but deadly concealed weapons..

We're all just waiting for our impending deaths!

//

193 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:05:09pm

re: #187 Kragar

Unusual behavior or thoughts of hurting yourself or others.

but if you have this symptom, you should go to your nearest sane person immediately, avoiding all exposure to Fox News. You may be suffering from a rare but serious side effect; Left untreated it will cause you to turn into a wingnut.

//

194 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:06:17pm

Gee. I can't wait for Obama to raise taxes on the 1 percent. Then, my life will be better. This I was told.

195 Mich-again  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:08:54pm

Here is what scares the bejeebus out of the gun nuts. The 2 step strategy of the lefty/commie/atheists..

1. Make mental illness a reason to exclude an individual from owning firearms.
2. Classify "Being an asshole" as a mental illness.

196 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:10:40pm
197 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:14:25pm

re: #195 Mich-again

Here is what scares the bejeebus out of the gun nuts. The 2 step strategy of the lefty/commie/atheists..

1. Make mental illness a reason to exclude an individual from owning firearms.
2. Classify "Being an asshole" as a mental illness.

No need for step 2.

"Tell us more about the invisible man in the sky will shield you from harm if you do whatever he tells you to do."

198 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:14:50pm
199 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:15:17pm

Being religious is not a mental disorder.

And with that, goodnight.

200 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:17:19pm

re: #199 Dark_Falcon

Being religious is not a mental disorder.

And with that, goodnight.

Where did that come from?

201 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:17:44pm

re: #199 Dark_Falcon

Being religious is not a mental disorder.

And with that, goodnight.

It is when you think the protective hand of God is going to save you from crazed gunmen and global warming.

202 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:18:52pm

re: #201 Kragar

It is when you think the protective hand of God is going to save you from crazed gunmen and global warming.

I could use some global warming right about now.

203 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:20:23pm

re: #202 Gus

I could use some global warming right about now.

Where do you think that snow came from? Fresh from the poles to your doorstep.

204 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:25:38pm

re: #203 Kragar

Where do you think that snow came from? Fresh from the poles to your doorstep.

I should probably sign up with a federal program to keep me warm.

205 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:27:17pm

Holy crap! Serious wind storm blowing in..Winston is tucked in. Sometimes in Oklahoma a wind storm will blow in and it's like watching the Wizard of Oz blowing by.

206 BongCrodny  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:33:11pm

I'm not sure this has been posted here before, but it's somewhat relevant to the ongoing discussions.

Below is the text from a Chuck Lorre vanity card from "The Big Bang Theory" that he never submitted to CBS because he self-censored it, assuming it had "crossed the line." It would have run on the Thursday, November 1 episode.

What does it say about us when we are simultaneously pro-life and pro AK-47's? What does it say about us when God's will would allow a rapist to ask for shared custody and child support payments? What does it say about us when a black guy's in charge and we say things like "it's time to take America back"? What does it say about us when we think the institution of marriage is threatened by gay people who love each other, but not by idiotic game shows like "The Bachelor"? What does it say about us when we export democracy with Hellfire missiles, then restrict the right to vote here? What does it say about us when we build nuclear submarines to defend against exploding vests? What does it say about us when we think a guy who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, keeps his money offshore, stubs his toe and says "H-E-double hockey sticks" and wears magical underwear can feel our pain? What does it say about us when we demand less government and more FEMA? What does it say about us when we completely forgot the colossal shit storm we were in four years ago?

The answer, my friends, is not blowing in the wind.

The answer is, "We are fucking crazy."

207 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:34:50pm

Once you get past the fake caring the rest is easy.

208 Mich-again  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:38:20pm

The harbinger of global warming will be a deep freeze in Northern Europe.

209 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:39:03pm

re: #207 Gus

Once you get past the fake caring the rest is easy.

210 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:44:27pm

re: #178 goddamnedfrank

Point is, I cook. Ladies, take note.

Yes, but do you cook WELL?
//

211 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:48:00pm

re: #209 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Yipee.

212 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:51:43pm

re: #205 A Man for all Seasons

So just get your ruby shoes ready!
//

213 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 10:57:53pm

re: #212 Dancing along the light of day

So just get your ruby shoes ready!
//

LOL.. We are tucked into bed blogging and watching TV,, Took My sleeping pill so the clock is ticking,, :)

214 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:49:48pm
215 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:12:55am

re: #36 Kragar

According to Wingnuts, Teachers must:

1) Lead children in prayers during class
2) Teach multiple discredited scientific theories and historical interpretations
3) Be fully trained in close quarter battle and firearms
4) Not make a living wage
5) not form unions to negotiate for their salary and benefits

as well as)

Live up to and set a personal and moral standard exceeding that of the community at large.

216 researchok  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:15:50am

Morning, all

217 researchok  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:19:30am

re: #214 freetoken

Judy Garland?

And as an aside, nice to get back into the routine.

TY

218 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:20:21am

re: #105 Romantic Heretic

With all due respect, DF, I don't find that the least surprising.

"I live outside the UK so most people don't realize that when I say 'with all due respect', I am insulting them."

-from a website on British idiosyncracies.

219 researchok  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:39:24am

re: #218 Sol Berdinowitz

That's great stuff.

220 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:43:22am

I have seen British people do almost every one of them at some point.

221 researchok  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:44:28am

re: #220 Sol Berdinowitz

I still apologize to inanimate objects when I bump into them.

222 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:45:04am

re: #221 researchok

I still apologize to inanimate objects when I bump into them.

Sorry to hear that...

223 researchok  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:46:00am

re: #222 Sol Berdinowitz

We have that in common

224 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:50:07am

I had a girlfriend from New Jersey; really sweet, wonderful, warm person, but she was constantly apologizing for herself for any real or imaginable reason...

I finally told her to stop apologizing all the time.

You can well imagine how she responded...

225 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 12:57:01am

re: #220 Sol Berdinowitz

I have seen British people do almost every one of them at some point.

226 stabby  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 1:00:40am

re: #218 Sol Berdinowitz

The best bit is this:
(note whoever rewrote that for a comment on the website had replaced the British word "biscuit" with "cookie" but even though it means "cookie" it just looks wrong. Brits write "biscuits".

Douglas Adams is worth mentioning here…

“This actually did happen to a real person, and the real person is me. I had gone to catch a train. This was April 1976, in Cambridge, U.K. I was a bit early for the train. I’d gotten the time of the train wrong. I went to get myself a newspaper to do the crossword, and a cup of coffee and a packet of biscuits. I went and sat at a table. I want you to picture the scene. It’s very important that you get this very clear in your mind. Here’s the table, newspaper, cup of coffee, packet of biscuits. There’s a guy sitting opposite me, perfectly ordinary-looking guy wearing a business suit, carrying a briefcase. It didn’t look like he was going to do anything weird. What he did was this: he suddenly leaned across, picked up the packet of biscuits, tore it open, took one out, and ate it.

Now this, I have to say, is the sort of thing the British are very bad at dealing with. There’s nothing in our background, upbringing, or education that teaches you how to deal with someone who in broad daylight has just stolen your biscuits. You know what would happen if this had been South Central Los Angeles. There would have very quickly been gunfire, helicopters coming in, CNN, you know… But in the end, I did what any red-blooded Englishman would do: I ignored it. And I stared at the newspaper, took a sip of coffee, tried to do a clue in the newspaper, couldn’t do anything, and thought, What am I going to do?

In the end I thought Nothing for it, I’ll just have to go for it, and I tried very hard not to notice the fact that the packet was already mysteriously opened. I took out a biscuit for myself. I thought, That settled him. But it hadn’t because a moment or two later he did it again. He took another biscuit. Having not mentioned it the first time, it was somehow even harder to raise the subject the second time around. “Excuse me, I couldn’t help but notice…” I mean, it doesn’t really work.

We went through the whole packet like this. When I say the whole packet, I mean there were only about eight biscuits, but it felt like a lifetime. He took one, I took one, he took one, I took one. Finally, when we got to the end, he stood up and walked away. Well, we exchanged meaningful looks, then he walked away, and I breathed a sigh of relief and sat back.

A moment or two later the train was coming in, so I tossed back the rest of my coffee, stood up, picked up the newspaper, and underneath the newspaper were my biscuits. The thing I like particularly about this story is the sensation that somewhere in England there has been wandering around for the last quarter-century a perfectly ordinary guy who’s had the same exact story, only he doesn’t have the punch line.”

227 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 1:16:16am

biscuits and gravy...

228 stabby  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 1:30:32am
229 stabby  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 1:33:50am

Note for people who leave the browser open in spy mode, I had to fix the above link.

230 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 1:53:36am

re: #187 Kragar

[Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...]

Possible side effects
Summary More details
Call your doctor right away if you notice any of these side effects:

Allergic reaction: Itching or hives, swelling in your face or hands, swelling or tingling in your mouth or throat, chest tightness, trouble breathing

Blistering, peeling, or red skin rash.

Change in how much or how often you urinate, or painful urination.

Chest pain or shortness of breath.

Confusion, weakness, or muscle twitching.

Fast, pounding, or uneven heartbeat.

Fever, chills, cough, sore throat, and body aches.

Painful, prolonged erection of the penis.

Swelling in your hands, ankles, or feet.

Unusual behavior or thoughts of hurting yourself or others.

Unusual bleeding or bruising.
If you notice these less serious side effects, talk with your doctor:

Dry mouth.

Headache, dizziness, or drowsiness.

Nausea, diarrhea, constipation, or upset stomach.

Problems with sex.

Runny or stuffy nose.

Sweating.

Tiredness.

Trouble with sleeping.

If you notice other side effects that you think are caused by this medicine, tell your doctor.

Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects. You may report side effects to FDA at 1-800-FDA-1088.

the net result from my point of view of allowing prescription medication to be advertised on tee vee is that i think it is the most dangerous thing in the world

231 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 1:55:00am

Outrageous HSBC Settlement Proves the Drug War is a Joke

If you've ever been arrested on a drug charge, if you've ever spent even a day in jail for having a stem of marijuana in your pocket or "drug paraphernalia" in your gym bag, Assistant Attorney General and longtime Bill Clinton pal Lanny Breuer has a message for you: Bite me.

Breuer this week signed off on a settlement deal with the British banking giant HSBC that is the ultimate insult to every ordinary person who's ever had his life altered by a narcotics charge. Despite the fact that HSBC admitted to laundering billions of dollars for Colombian and Mexican drug cartels (among others) and violating a host of important banking laws (from the Bank Secrecy Act to the Trading With the Enemy Act), Breuer and his Justice Department elected not to pursue criminal prosecutions of the bank, opting instead for a "record" financial settlement of $1.9 billion, which as one analyst noted is about five weeks of income for the bank.

232 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 1:58:18am
233 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 1:58:59am

Federal and state authorities have chosen not to indict HSBC, the London-based bank, on charges of vast and prolonged money laundering, for fear that criminal prosecution would topple the bank and, in the process, endanger the financial system.

The moral: If you're going to be a criminal, be the biggest one you can be.

234 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 2:02:06am

"Robbing a bank is nothing, if you really want to be a criminal, try founding one"

-Berthold Brecht

235 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 2:03:49am

The Federal penalty for being found with one ounce of marijuana can be up to 1 year in prison on the first offence.

Launder the money for a multimillion dollar drug ring: 5 weeks wages

236 Tigger2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 2:46:07am

re: #117 jaunte

Collector's Special:
Insane conspiracy theory being emailed about, from one "shortlittlerebel" on wordpress:

I had a friend post that on my FB wall, he's not a friend anymore.

237 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 2:54:53am

re: #184 Gus

Yes. It's like fucking zero right now. Not much snow. Freaking cold. This sucks.

Cheer up, things could be a lot worse...

Deep freeze across Russia dips to 50 below, at least 45 die

Americans feeling their first wintry blast of the season on Wednesday could take some comfort from this: In Moscow it felt like 10 below – part of a week-long cold spell across Russia that has parts of Siberia feeling like 50 below.

Across Russia, the deep freeze killed at least 45 people over the last week, 21 on Tuesday alone, the English-language Moscow Times reported Wednesday. Nearly 270 people were hospitalized, more than half with frostbite.

Russia's emergency ministry urged everyone in Moscow to stay indoors on Wednesday, while forecasters said the cold could get worse over the weekend.

238 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 2:58:17am

Last thing I want here in Germany is a white Christmas this year: I have to drive 100 miles across the border into France to pick up my kids on Christmas Day, and where they live is out in the forest on the edge of the Vosges mountains.

239 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 3:19:26am

WTFF?

CTA Passenger Attacked With Sock Filled With Human Feces

A woman riding the Chicago Transit Authority's Blue Line in Oak Park told police she was last week attacked by another passenger wielding a sock filled with human feces.

"He had a sock full of his poop on me," the 21-year-old college student told the Pioneer Press. "It was everywhere; on my face, my hair, my clothes."

The victim, requesting anonymity, said she screamed and tried to follow her attacker, but he escaped up the Austin Boulevard exit and ran northbound on Austin.

The college student, who came to Oak Park six weeks ago to live with a family and provide in-home child care, said she was riding an east-bound train from Oak Park to Chicago when she was attacked.

"The guy got on with me at [the] Oak Park [station]," she said. "I wasn’t really paying attention. ... "Next stop [at Austin], he throws something in my face."

"Chicago, chicago, the folks who visit
All wanna settle down.
On state street, that great street, I just wanna say,
They do things they don’t do on broadway..."
- Frank Sinatra

240 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 3:23:10am

She should have looked for him on Argyle Street...

241 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 3:36:09am

re: #117 jaunte

Hey we know in the end it all goes back to financial institutions and .... wait for it.... the Joooooooos.

////

242 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 3:41:11am

re: #205 A Man for all Seasons

Holy crap! Serious wind storm blowing in..Winston is tucked in. Sometimes in Oklahoma a wind storm will blow in and it's like watching the Wizard of Oz blowing by.

North of you we have blizzards in Kansas. My trees are already coated on just one side, and the snow is almost coming sideways.

243 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 3:56:57am

Kevin Swanson and Dave Buehner get angry on air about Rick Warren claiming that he is not homophobic and that he has "many gay friends" in a HuffPost interview...

Swanson: Having Gay Friends like Making Friends with Serial Killers

Swanson: Dave, you know, he [Rick Warren] says, ‘I have many, many gay friends.’ ‘Many, many gay friends.’

Buehner: Which is weird, because I have never said that.

Swanson: I have never said that either, I don’t say, ‘I have many, many gay friends.’ It’s almost like saying, ‘I have many, many gay fornicators;’ ‘I have many, many gay liar friends;’ it’s just craziness. I just interviewed this guy who goes into maximum security prisons and he interviews serial killers and I appreciate this guy, he’s actually had an opportunity to talk to a number of then and he says some twenty-five percent of them actually do repent he thinks, and it’s wonderful to see their lives turn around. So I mean, you know, what does this guy say: ‘I have many, many serial killer friends.’ I don’t think he says that, he doesn’t say that. I think he says, ‘it’s a shameful thing to be a serial killer.’ You wouldn’t want to wear that on a t-shirt, you wouldn’t want to say ‘I have many, many friends who kill people.’

Buehner: ‘I have many, many cannibal friends.’ ‘I have many, many molester friends.’ Just pick the abomination.

Swanson: You just don’t want to wear that on a shirt.

Buehner: ‘Many of my friends are wife beaters,’ would I say that?

244 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:01:34am

re: #243 watching you tiny alien kittens are

It's so weird to hear that kind of stuff when you're outside their bubble. It's almost comedic, but mostly just sounds literally insane.

"Yeah, yeah, buddy, molesters and cannibals and gay people, relax."

245 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:03:15am

re: #243 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Kevin Swanson and Dave Buehner get angry on air about Rick Warren claiming that he is not homophobic and that he has "many gay friends" in a HuffPost interview...

Swanson: Having Gay Friends like Making Friends with Serial Killers

This is the Santorum mindset: homosexuality, cannibalism, serial murder, bestiality, wife abuse, et.c are all abominations unto the Lord, therefore they are all equal to their minds.

There is no trying to argue with them about it.

246 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:05:03am

re: #233 Kragar

Federal and state authorities have chosen not to indict HSBC, the London-based bank, on charges of vast and prolonged money laundering, for fear that criminal prosecution would topple the bank and, in the process, endanger the financial system.

The moral: If you're going to be a criminal, be the biggest one you can be.

A man with a briefcase can steal more money
than any man with a gun
- Don Henley

247 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:06:42am

re: #246 Eventual Carrion

A man with a briefcase can steal more money
than any man with a gun
- Don Henley

Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank;
Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

248 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:11:06am

re: #233 Kragar

Federal and state authorities have chosen not to indict HSBC, the London-based bank, on charges of vast and prolonged money laundering, for fear that criminal prosecution would topple the bank and, in the process, endanger the financial system.

The moral: If you're going to be a criminal, be the biggest one you can be.

One of the major themes of the RWNJs is about our godless secular society and moral decay...so just where do people learn contempt for authority and that the only crime is getting caught, and even that can be mitigated with the right contacts?

249 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:34:15am

I kinda think he is missing the point here...

Stupid Atheists

I thought atheists were supposed to be smart. Guess not. Here’s an ad American Atheists have paid $25,000.00 to put up in Times Square.

Keep the Merry! Dump the Myth!

What’s hilarious about this ill-thought out campaign is that the atheists keep telling us they are only interested in evidence. They only want the facts ma’am. They’re thinkers. They’re rational. blah blah blah.

They’re opposed to “myths”. They don’t like make believe. They think it’s a form of child abuse to tell children stories about big sugar daddies in the sky who will give them everything they want. Religion is, they say, an infantile belief system to bring comfort to the frightened, weak minded babies. The atheists tell us they’re down on fairy tales. They don’t believe in magic sky fairies.

But they want to keep a magic elf who lives at the North Pole and flies through the sky with dancing reindeer? They want to keep the fat fairy man who comes down the chimney of every home in the world in one night while drinking Coca Cola? They want to keep jolly old St Nick who lays a finger beside his nose ’cause ’twas the night before Christmas? They don’t want a God who judges, but they want the old man in the red suit who keeps a list of who’s naughty and nice and checks it twice? They don’t like a God who makes his little children feel good, but they want the happy elf who has his bag full of goodies for all the good boys and girls? Do these atheists tell their children there is such a person as Santa Claus? Do they abuse their little ones with such obvious lies?

250 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:43:42am

re: #249 watching you tiny alien kittens are

I kinda think he is missing the point here...

Stupid Atheists

One of the things that keeps me from getting too homesick around Christmas as an American expat is this War on Christmas meme that gets beat to death every year.

I have no problem with any holiday whose core message is peace on Earth and Goodwill to All.

And as a card-carrying agnostic and part-time heathen, I am willing to ignore all the other conundrums of virgin birth and the whole world migrating to their place of birth in the dead of winter in order to enjoy a warm and cheerful midwinter festival that is part of millenium-old tradition that predates Christianity.

251 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:47:14am

re: #250 Sol Berdinowitz

One of the things that keeps me from getting too homesick around Christmas as an American expat is this War on Christmas meme that gets beat to death every year.

I have no problem with any holiday whose core message is peace on Earth and Goodwill to All.

And as a card-carrying agnostic and part-time heather, I am willing to ignore all the other conundrums of virgin birth and the whole world migrating to their place of birth in the dead of winter in order to enjoy a warm and cheerful midwinter festival that is part of millenium-old tradition that predates Christianity.

But Europeans enjoy Christmas too, don't they? On my brief visit to Amsterdam the airport was very nicely decorated, the Schiphol employees all wearing bright red scarves, and all the city venues were festive.

252 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:52:14am

Most of our Christmas traditions come from Europe, for chrissakes. And nobody here makes any bones about the Christian traditions associated with it.

Last year I saw a car driving around Frankfurt with an eight-foot gold menorah strapped to the roof and two Hassidic Jews at the wheel. Pulled right up next to me in traffic, I was rocking out to "Highway to Hell" on the car radio, they smiled and seemed to enjoy it as well...

253 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:55:51am

re: #252 Sol Berdinowitz

Most of our Christmas traditions come from Europe, for chrissakes. And nobody here makes any bones about the Christian traditions associated with it.

Last year I saw a car driving around Frankfurt with an eight-foot gold menorah strapped to the roof and two Hassidic Jews at the wheel. Pulled right up next to me in traffic, I was rocking out to "Highway to Hell" on the car radio, they smiled and seemed to enjoy it as well...

I'm glad to hear that some Jews in Europe are ignoring the wingnut meme spreading around that "Jews in Europe have to hide their Judaism in public!"

254 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:03:36am

re: #242 Randall Gross

North of you we have blizzards in Kansas. My trees are already coated on just one side, and the snow is almost coming sideways.

No. It's coming straight down

It just looks that way because you're laying down in bed !!

//

255 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:05:05am

re: #242 Randall Gross

North of you we have blizzards in Kansas. My trees are already coated on just one side, and the snow is almost coming sideways.

256 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:12:59am

re: #253 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I'm glad to hear that some Jews in Europe are ignoring the wingnut meme spreading around that "Jews in Europe have to hide their Judaism in public!"

Frankfurt was always one of the major centers of Judaism in Germany, and has become one again.

257 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:15:13am

re: #255 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Catastrophic global warming alert: Russia experiencing harshest, coldest winter in 70 years.

No point in trying to explain the difference betwen "weather" and "climate" to this dip, let's start with basics like "shit"/"Shinola" or "ass"/"hole in the ground"...

258 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:15:27am

re: #256 Sol Berdinowitz

Frankfurt was always one of the major centers of Judaism in Germany, and has become one again.

I was in Frankfurt 5 years ago, another airport layover. We went into the city to do some sightseeing.

259 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:18:51am

re: #255 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Catastrophic global warming alert: Russia experiencing harshest, coldest winter in 70 years. rt.com/news/russia-fr...

— Bryan Fischer (@BryanJFischer) December 20, 2012

Amazing what happens when you start changing the CLIMATE. You start getting weird/extreme WEATHER in places. Jet stream starts dipping and condensing in places it traditionally didn't. More heat, more evaporation, so more moisture in the air, heavier snow when the conditions are right. Maybe not in places where it traditionally fell (water or snow), but things are changing. I'm glad Bryan appears to have someone to take care of the technical things in his life, like tying his shoes as I think that technical process may be beyond his comprehension also..

260 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:25:59am

re: #258 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I was in Frankfurt 5 years ago, another airport layover. We went into the city to do some sightseeing.

Many things went wrong. We were coming from Israel and did not have the proper outerwear for Frankfurt in mid-November.

The Frankfurt Jews were the RUDEST and most UNFRIENDLY we ever encountered, no one spoke German, only Hebrew, Russian or English. Zedushka, just like in Amsterdam, spoke Yiddish to everyone, FTW!

We found out that just week before some maniac with a knife ran through the synagogue slashing people at random. That explained the METAL DETECTORS, barricades and convoy of police cars everywhere.

We paid 20 Euros for a very unsatisfying lunch of soup and bread.

On the train going back to the airport we had to stand up while a bunch of teenagers grabbed all the seats.

261 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:33:08am

re: #260 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

On the train going back to the airport we had to stand up while a bunch of teenagers grabbed all the seats.

I thought you said you were in Frankfurt, not Boston~!~!

//

262 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:34:39am

re: #261 sattv4u2


On the train going back to the airport we had to stand up while a bunch of teenagers grabbed all the seats.

I thought you said you were in Frankfurt, not Boston~!~!

//

But all the rude elderly-disrespecting teenagers were speaking French.

263 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:38:41am

re: #205 A Man for all Seasons

Holy crap! Serious wind storm blowing in..Winston is tucked in. Sometimes in Oklahoma a wind storm will blow in and it's like watching the Wizard of Oz blowing by.

Tell Winston you're not in Kansas any more.
:)

264 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:43:20am

It's a conspiracy! The words Aurora and Sandy Hook both appear in the "The Dark Knight Rises" and Neo's passport in "The Matrix" expires on 9-11-2001! How much more proof do you need of the Jewish/Hollywood/Media conspiracy to enslave us? Just think of the name of the movie itself for a moment The...DARK kNIGHT RISES! They are throwing it right in your face because they think we are all too stupid to see it!!!!11!


///

265 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:43:26am

re: #262 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

But all the rude elderly-disrespecting teenagers were speaking French.

well, on the "T" in Boston they aren't zaccly speaking (proper) English!!!!

266 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:48:17am

re: #264 watching you tiny alien kittens are

It's a conspiracy! The words Aurora and Sandy Hook both appear in the "The Dark Knight Rises" and Neo's passport in "The Matrix" expires on 9-11-2001! How much more proof do you need of the Jewish/Hollywood/Media conspiracy to enslave us? Just think of the name of the movie itself for a moment The...DARK kNIGHT RISES! They are throwing it right in your face because they think we are all too stupid to see it!!!!11!

[Embedded content]


///

Obama's approval ratings hit record highs since OBL's "assasination" ...further proof of conspiracy

267 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:04:45am

So, yesterday we get that idiot NR contributor claiming that if only there were men at the school that the shooting wouldn't have happened.

Yet we know that there was at least a male janitor who ran through the school trying to save as many people as possible.

Today, the Daily News found another story of heroism. Ted Varga, a teacher at the school, saved the lives of five fellow teachers when he heard the shooting, got them to a place of safety, and then helped others escape the building.

Lest we forget, while this massacre was unusually heinous and with an unbelievably high death toll - particularly among children, mass murders (as defined as 4+ murdered) happen all too frequently. They happen every two weeks on average.

Yet, even by that standard, the murder/suicide of four people in Colorado earlier this week doesn't rise to that level. Three people were gunned down in that instance, and the gunman then committed suicide.

269 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:16:26am

re: #268 lawhawk

Because we have banned God from the NOAA!!!

/

270 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:17:21am

re: #269 Sol Berdinowitz

Because we have banned God from the NOAA!!!

/

Mother nature didn't like the competition.

271 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:18:38am

The copycats are out.

In Bergen County NJ alone, at least two schools have seen terroristic threats made, and one arrest has been made.

During the past week across the nation, there's been quite a few threats made against schools, and in several instances people have been arrested for making threats, bringing weapons to schools, or even a purported bomb plot was disrupted.

272 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:21:02am

re: #269 Sol Berdinowitz

Apparently the South isn't sufficiently religious - if we follow Fischer's logic* (among others)

* black box warning Attempts to follow Bryan Fischer's logic may result in head trauma, hand damage due to facepalm, uncontrollable laughter/crying, and the urge to twitter respond

273 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:23:31am

Haven't been on the YouTube site for a while, but if their emails are any guide, I'm ready to join the chorus of haters - they just sent me one, and under "We think you'd like...", they list videos from Ron Paul fans, truthers, and Russia Today o_O

274 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:23:47am

re: #272 lawhawk

Apparently the South isn't sufficiently religious - if we follow Fischer's logic* (among others)

* black box warning Attempts to follow Bryan Fischer's logic may result in head trauma, hand damage due to facepalm, uncontrollable laughter/crying, and the urge to twitter respond

That is not logic, that is just a random flow of thoughts based on anything that supports his religious/political/sexual/racial bias.

275 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:36:05am

re: #250 Sol Berdinowitz

One of the things that keeps me from getting too homesick around Christmas as an American expat is this War on Christmas meme that gets beat to death every year.

I have no problem with any holiday whose core message is peace on Earth and Goodwill to All.

And as a card-carrying agnostic and part-time heathen, I am willing to ignore all the other conundrums of virgin birth and the whole world migrating to their place of birth in the dead of winter in order to enjoy a warm and cheerful midwinter festival that is part of millenium-old tradition that predates Christianity.

What annoys me is the presumption by many of these idiots that good will, cooperation, and belief in the common good is solely a Christian commodity, and often just a commodity of their particular sub-group thereof.

276 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:36:11am

Oh, and we have this winner: Man arrested for bringing rifle in to Sandy Hook elementary school in Strasburg VA.

Christopher Johnson, 33, was arrested after he was detained by a school resource officer. Proctor said Johnson is being held in jail and was charged with disorderly conduct.
The incident happened at 11:40 this morning. Major Proctor said Johnson was approached by a school employee immediately after he entered the school. He said the school resource officer arrived “seconds later.”

Proctor said he was not sure why Johnson entered the school, however he said it appeared Johnson wanted to make a point about school security.

Proctor was not aware whether or not Johnson had a child at the school which shares the same name as the school in Connecticut where a gunman opened fire last week killing 26 people before turning the gun on himself.

277 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:42:28am

re: #276 lawhawk

Oh, and we have this winner: Man arrested for bringing rifle in to Sandy Hook elementary school in Strasburg VA.


[snip]
"Proctor said he was not sure why Johnson entered the school, however he said it appeared Johnson wanted to make a point about school security."
[snip]

Wonder if his point would have been made better if a teacher or janitor had been armed and shot him in the head as we are being told they should.

278 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:43:47am

re: #255 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

The first casualty of global warming will be a deep freeze in Northern Europe due to the disruption of ocean currents.

279 BongCrodny  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:54:17am

re: #278 Mich-again

The first casualty of global warming will be a deep freeze in Northern Europe due to the disruption of ocean currents.

Any reply to a Bryan Fischer tweet should include the salutation "Hey, STOOPID!"

280 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 6:56:20am

re: #278 Mich-again

The first casualty of global warming will be a deep freeze in Northern Europe due to the disruption of ocean currents.

Exactly. And if deniers come back with "herp derp, you're just saying that now to make excuses", point out NASA predicted this over eight years ago:

March 5, 2004: Global warming could plunge North America and Western Europe into a deep freeze, possibly within only a few decades.

That's the paradoxical scenario gaining credibility among many climate scientists. The thawing of sea ice covering the Arctic could disturb or even halt large currents in the Atlantic Ocean. Without the vast heat that these ocean currents deliver--comparable to the power generation of a million nuclear power plants--Europe's average temperature would likely drop 5 to 10°C (9 to 18°F), and parts of eastern North America would be chilled somewhat less. Such a dip in temperature would be similar to global average temperatures toward the end of the last ice age roughly 20,000 years ago.

281 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:01:32am

re: #279 BongCrodny

Any reply to a Bryan Fischer tweet should include the salutation "Hey, STOOPID!"

"If they'd only prayed harder to be warm, they wouldn't have frozen to death!"

282 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:02:18am

I'm doing cocoa mix in my coffee this morning, it's not bad.

283 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:02:58am

Can anyone recommend a good espresso/cappuccino maker that costs less than $200?

284 Jolo5309  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:08:43am

re: #83 Pawn of the Oppressor

Jeezus Jet-Skiing Christ. What the fucking fuckity fuck is wrong with people...?

Fear, they are afraid that their homes & businesses will be broken into by some deranged non white person who will rape them and the rest of their families, then kill them.

You can point out homicide statistics, rape statistics, and other forcible crime statistics and it is "Well they would be safer with a gun" and "firearms have prevented over a million crimes".

I have seen this from rational people, not just the wingnuts. The blinders are amazing.

285 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:09:11am

re: #283 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

These are not great, but not bad, and the coffee maker insures it will get a bit more use than just an expresso maker would.

[Link: www.crateandbarrel.com...]

286 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:18:14am

re: #284 Jolo5309

Fear is pretty much the essence of their being. They're afraid of everything. Different people (even white people who don't believe in the same boogeyman they do, or any invisible man in the sky at all), but especially non-whites, any type of change whatsoever. They always seem to lust for the times of old (50s is a big one) because the discrimination was open and legal, and the women knew their place in society (both of those things are manifestations of fear). Fear that somebody they see as inferior could be better than they are. Much easier to put somebody down for an abstract reason than trying to actually be a better person.

A lot of that fear manifests itself into aggression, violence, and hatred (which is then diagnosed as racism/bigotry/misogyny).

I've gone off on a tangent here, but gun-nuts are afraid of everything, but most of all, they're afraid of their own weakness.

287 dragonfire1981  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:23:43am

I think I've mentioned this before, but it's funny to see the reactions I get from people here in the South when I tell them about having to deal with 40 below cold in the North.

288 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:26:09am

re: #273 Interesting Times

Haven't been on the YouTube site for a while, but if their emails are any guide, I'm ready to join the chorus of haters - they just sent me one, and under "We think you'd like...", they list videos from Ron Paul fans, truthers, and Russia Today o_O

For music or animal videos those suggestions have value. For politics, not so much.

We often disagree, but you're no hater.

289 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:27:04am

re: #279 BongCrodny

Any reply to a Bryan Fischer tweet should include the salutation "Hey, STOOPID!"

The DERP After Tomorrow.

290 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:28:24am

re: #286 Ghost of Tom Joad

I've gone off on a tangent here, but gun-nuts are afraid of everything, but most of all, they're afraid of their own weakness.

And this latest shooting has exposed the weaknesses in their arguments, which is why they are flying off in such a blind rage.

291 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:28:31am

re: #288 Dark_Falcon

For music or animal videos those suggestions have value. For politics, not so much.

We often disagree, but you're no hater.

Nope, "when I said join the chorus of haters", I meant the chorus of people who hate the recent changes to YouTube!

292 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:32:26am

NRA Head To Appear On ‘Meet The Press’ Sunday

National Rifle Association CEO Wayne LaPierre will appear on "Meet the Press" Sunday, executive producer Betsy Fischer Martin announced on Twitter Thursday.

Oh goodie, so we get to watch Gregory slobber all over him on live TV. This should be informative.///

293 Jolo5309  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:34:36am

re: #287 dragonfire1981

I think I've mentioned this before, but it's funny to see the reactions I get from people here in the South when I tell them about having to deal with 40 below cold in the North.

That would be covered here:

294 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:34:40am

re: #291 Interesting Times

Nope, "when I said join the chorus of haters", I meant the chorus of people who hate the recent changes to YouTube!

Well, I do agree they're bad and make the site less functional. I don't hate the changes, but they annoy me. They're driven by "New Toy Syndrome" and a desire to make things "look cool". But I don't hate that those issues effect Google, because I learned a long way back that those are just problems companies that make software naturally suffer from.

295 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:41:04am

Boehner's got a press conference scheduled for 1:15pm EST, said yesterday that he'd set up the vote today on his "Plan B" to force the president's hand. So it should be entertaining to see how this will play out.

296 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:41:21am

Marine vet of Iraq war takes up self-imposed duty at Calif. school in wake of Conn. shooting

A Marine veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan took up self-imposed duty in front of a central California elementary school in the wake of the Connecticut shooting.

Hughson Elementary School Principal Laura Fong said Sgt. Craig Pusley stood all day Wednesday in fatigues in front of the flag pole at the school just southeast of Modesto. He was not armed.

Pusley, who served two tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan before leaving active duty last year, told Fong that "he wanted to make the kids feel safe in light of what happened at Sandy Hook Elementary," the principal said.

The veteran Marine arrived at the K-3 school a little before 7:30 am, Fong said, and asked permission to stand guard. He stood in front of the flag pole until 2:30 p.m., she said, without taking any breaks.

Sgt. Pusley is a father of a three-year-old and his wife is expecting another child. He told the Modesto Bee ([Link: bit.ly...] that he decided to take action after reading a Facebook post urging soldiers to be posted at every school in the wake of last week's tragic shooting in Connecticut.

(bolding mine)

He wouldn't need a gun, since most would-be murderers would piss their pants at the thought of facing a United States Marine. I know its just a gesture, but I still appreciate it.

297 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:41:30am

Dang, where was this band when I got married (and why I didn't think about this sooner). Wedding band sneaks in Metallica's Enter Sandman to bossa nova dinner interlude.

298 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:44:02am

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

Marine vet of Iraq war takes up self-imposed duty at Calif. school in wake of Conn. shooting

(bolding mine)

He wouldn't need a gun, since most would-be murderers would piss their pants at the thought of facing a United States Marine. I know its just a gesture, but I still appreciate it.

It's not guns that ultimately protect us, it is people who are committed to our safety. That committment can take many forms, including, but not lmiited to gun control.

299 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:52:01am

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

Would be murderers don't seem to have a problem murdering law enforcement officers who are armed and in uniform, so why would anyone who is intent upon committing murder be fearful of attacking and killing a Marine (who would be unarmed). The murder rate of law enforcement officers has dropped with an increase in the use of body armor (bullet proof vests), and improved medical treatment. See this study for breakdown of police-involved homicides (both police killing others, and felons killing police).

Would this particular person, who happens to be a Marine, be a deterrent? Possibly. Then again, school shootings while heinous and deadly, are infrequent and make up only a fraction of the nearly 10k killed in firearms homicides annually.

Besides, which is preferable? Having to station someone at every school or public place to thwart an attack, or finding ways to restrict access to firearms in the first place to those who are unstable, seek violence, are felons, or in other words - people that most people would not want to have access to firearms under any circumstances and which would prevent the possible loss of life down the line (including said Marine dad who could be killed in confronting that potential killer).

300 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:53:37am

re: #298 Sol Berdinowitz

It's not guns that ultimately protect us, it is people who are committed to our safety. That committment can take many forms, including, but not lmiited to gun control.

That goes several ways, for a gun is ultimately just a tool. We can use to protect ourselves sometimes, or it can be used by those with evil intentions. What ever else is true, the weapon matters less than the mind behind it.

301 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:53:43am

re: #295 Targetpractice

Boehner's got a press conference scheduled for 1:15pm EST, said yesterday that he'd set up the vote today on his "Plan B" to force the president's hand. So it should be entertaining to see how this will play out.

At this point I'd settle for full "fiscal cliff". Let all the rates go back to the pre-Bush cut levels. And then Obama can veto the House sequester to back out the Pentagon cuts of the cliff.

The bed has been made, let Congress lie in it.

302 Sionainn  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:53:55am

re: #295 Targetpractice

Boehner's got a press conference scheduled for 1:15pm EST, said yesterday that he'd set up the vote today on his "Plan B" to force the president's hand. So it should be entertaining to see how this will play out.

I thought RWNJs were against Plan B.

//

303 dragonfire1981  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:54:33am

re: #297 lawhawk

Dang, where was this band when I got married (and why I didn't think about this sooner). Wedding band sneaks in Metallica's Enter Sandman to bossa nova dinner interlude.

[Embedded content]

Ha, that's great. It's like Metallica elevator music.

304 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:56:25am

re: #287 dragonfire1981

I think I've mentioned this before, but it's funny to see the reactions I get from people here in the South when I tell them about having to deal with 40 below cold in the North.

When I was visiting my wife in Louisiana one January it once got cold enough overnight to have a bit of ice form on rain puddles from the previous day's rain. I went out to do some shopping. The few people I met literally gaped at how little I was wearing (jacket, gloves and toque).

When I explained that where I came from the day would be unseasonably warm the expression changed from "disbelief" to "You're Bigfoot, aren't you?"

305 dragonfire1981  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:56:31am

re: #299 lawhawk

Would be murderers don't seem to have a problem murdering law enforcement officers who are armed and in uniform, so why would anyone who is intent upon committing murder be fearful of attacking and killing a Marine (who would be unarmed).

The article stated the Marine did what he did to make the kids feel safer, which they probably did. Regardless of the fact that he probably would have been unable to do much to stop a shooting, I think his act served its purpose.

306 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:56:57am

re: #303 dragonfire1981

Well, they already make Metallica and NIN lullabuys. So, this was only natural.

307 dragonfire1981  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:57:46am

re: #304 Romantic Heretic

When I was visiting my wife in Louisiana one January it once got cold enough overnight to have a bit of ice form on rain puddles from the previous day's rain. I went out to do some shopping. The few people I met literally gaped at how little I was wearing (jacket, gloves and toque).

When I explained that where I came from the day would be unseasonably warm the expression changed from "disbelief" to "You're Bigfoot, aren't you?"

Heh, I remember one year when, after a very cold snap, we had one day where the temperature got up to 32 degrees (0 C). People were walking around in t-shirts because it felt so warm.

308 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:58:08am

re: #300 Dark_Falcon

That goes several ways, for a gun is ultimately just a tool. We can use to protect ourselves sometimes, or it can be used by those with evil intentions. What ever else is true, the weapon matters less than the mind behind it.

And in order to protect yourself with a weapon, you need to be trained in its use and have steady nerves.

In order to protect others, you need, expert training, skill, experience, sound nerves and even more sound judgement.

That is a hard set of skills to acquire, and they would not come cheap if we set out to hire people who have mastered them on a massive scale.

309 Mattand  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:58:23am

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

Marine vet of Iraq war takes up self-imposed duty at Calif. school in wake of Conn. shooting

(bolding mine)

He wouldn't need a gun, since most would-be murderers would piss their pants at the thought of facing a United States Marine. I know its just a gesture, but I still appreciate it.

I appreciate the gesture as well, but to think that a disturbed individual armed to the teeth would collapse at the mere sight of an unarmed Marine is delusional.

310 dragonfire1981  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:58:48am

re: #308 Sol Berdinowitz

And in order to pretct yourself with a weapon, you need to be trained in its use and have steady nerves.

In order to protect others, you need, expert training, skill, experience, sound nerves and even more sound judgement.

That is a hard set of skills to acquire, and they would not come cheap if we set out to hire them on a massive scale.

I regret I have but only one upding to give this comment.

311 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:59:20am

re: #302 Sionainn

I thought RWNJs were against Plan B.

//

They are in this case. Inside sources were saying that Boehner made his "threat" to Obama only after having a fight with the majority whip over getting enough votes to pass "Plan B" in the House. Word is that they had to cram some more spending cuts in it in the hopes of winning over reluctant Tea Partiers. And even then, they're not sure they have enough.

312 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:59:31am

re: #304 Romantic Heretic

When I was visiting my wife in Louisiana one January it once got cold enough overnight to have a bit of ice form on rain puddles from the previous day's rain. I went out to do some shopping. The few people I met literally gaped at how little I was wearing (jacket, gloves and toque).

When I explained that where I came from the day would be unseasonably warm the expression changed from "disbelief" to "You're Bigfoot, aren't you?"

My girlfriend, a native of Phoenix, was like that on the handful of days when it got down to freezing, but for that, I saw her cycle to work in 118° heat wearing long sleeves and corduroy trousers...

313 Sionainn  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 7:59:49am

re: #305 dragonfire1981

The article stated the Marine did what he did to make the kids feel safer, which they probably did. Regardless of the fact that he probably would have been unable to do much to stop a shooting, I think his act served its purpose.

I don't know that it made the kids feel any better (at a K-3 school). No one I know spoke to their little ones about the shootings.

314 danarchy  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:00:35am

re: #301 Feline Fearless Leader

At this point I'd settle for full "fiscal cliff". Let all the rates go back to the pre-Bush cut levels. And then Obama can veto the House sequester to back out the Pentagon cuts of the cliff.

The bed has been made, let Congress lie in it.

Didn't he already sign the sequester back during the whole debt ceiling debacle. I think it is already law and only the details need to be worked out, unless a new law supersedes it.

315 Sionainn  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:01:10am

re: #306 lawhawk

Well, they already make Metallica and NIN lullabuys. So, this was only natural.

That's awesome! I wish I'd known about the Metallica one when my girls listened to music before sleep.

316 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:01:14am

re: #310 dragonfire1981

I regret I have but only one upding to give this comment.

you inspired me to fix the spelling and syntax

317 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:03:37am

re: #314 danarchy

Didn't he already sign the sequester back during the whole debt ceiling debacle. I think it is already law and only the details need to be worked out, unless a new law supersedes it.

I saw an article saying the House was working out a new bill that would back out the defense cuts part of the agreement; e.g. the "cliff" would cut entitlement spending, and then the GOP would essentially welch on the defense cuts part of the deal.

318 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:03:39am

re: #308 Sol Berdinowitz

And in order to pretct yourself with a weapon, you need to be trained in its use and have steady nerves.

In order to protect others, you need, expert training, skill, experience, sound nerves and even more sound judgement.

That is a hard set of skills to acquire, and they would not come cheap if we set out to hire them on a massive scale.

Well trained people are never cheap, which is why real soldiers cost far more than rag-tag militiamen. But a man who can keep his head should be able to own a weapon to protect himself and his family.

319 Sionainn  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:03:54am

re: #311 Targetpractice

They are in this case. Inside sources were saying that Boehner made his "threat" to Obama only after having a fight with the majority whip over getting enough votes to pass "Plan B" in the House. Word is that they had to cram some more spending cuts in it in the hopes of winning over reluctant Tea Partiers. And even then, they're not sure they have enough.

I was talking about this Plan B, but thanks for the update on the current Plan B. I've been avoiding the whole thing, so didn't even know who wants what in the House right now.

320 Mattand  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:04:37am

I hate to harp on the Marine, as his gesture was born out of love and concern for his family and others, but is that where we want to take this?

Turning our elementary schools into fortresses with military guard and armed instructors, instead of instituting tighter control on the easy availability of lethal weapons.

This is not good. For anyone.

321 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:06:07am

re: #319 Sionainn

I was talking about this Plan B, but thanks for the update on the current Plan B. I've been avoiding the whole thing, so didn't even know who wants what in the House right now.

As of right now, Boehner's trying a last-ditch attempt to improve his hand against Obama by putting his "Plan B" proposal to the Senate and then the White House to pass, declaring yesterday that Obama's "choices" will be either to accept the House's bill or allow the "biggest tax increase in history."

So far, it looks like nobody's fooled.

322 Mattand  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:06:23am

re: #318 Dark_Falcon

Well trained people are never cheap, which is why real soldiers cost far more than rag-tag militiamen. But a man who can keep his head should be able to own a weapon to protect himself and his family.

I actually agree. Turning the local preschool into Fort Bragg, as many conservatives are calling for, is pretending there's no gun problem in the US.

323 GunstarGreen  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:07:01am

re: #100 Pawn of the Oppressor

Sure. I was just thinking in terms of how the killing happens, more than how the weapon itself works: punch holes in the body to destroy brain function through immediate catastrophic trauma or rapid blood loss.

I keep thinking of the scene from Terminator 2 where the T-800 and young John Connor are watching the kids play-shoot at one another.

"We're not going to make it, are we?"
"It is in your nature to destroy yourselves."

A testament to just how good T2 was. By that point you've been watching nearly an hour of incredible gun-violence played for basic action movie thrills. And then you get a scene of children playing with toy guns, an incredibly common sight in America, and it chills you to the bone.

324 darthstar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:07:13am

re: #300 Dark_Falcon

That goes several ways, for a gun is ultimately just a tool. We can use to protect ourselves sometimes, or it can be used by those with evil intentions. What ever else is true, the weapon matters less than the mind behind it.

If you want to protect yourself, get a shotgun. Big noise, wide pattern, no chance of going through two walls and across the street to kill someone if you miss your target.

325 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:07:18am

re: #322 Mattand

We are essentially being told by the nutcases to sacrifice Children in the name of them being able to own an AR-15.

326 drool  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:07:24am

Just a technical comment but this is not correct. ""These are hollow-points," he exclaimed. "They're meant for piercing armor." "
Hollow points by design are less likely to go through armor. They are designed to expand transferring the kinetic energy in a shorter amount of time. Ammunition designed to defeat body armor does not expand.

Another point: Law enforcement use Glocks. That is the pistol you see on a cops belt. That is the reason many people (including creeps) have them. They are a reliable and effective service weapon.

327 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:07:45am

re: #320 Mattand

I hate to harp on the Marine, as his gesture was born out of love and concern for his family and others, but is that where we want to take this?

Turning our elementary schools into fortresses with military guard and armed instructors, instead of instituting tighter control on the easy availability of lethal weapons.

This is not good. For anyone.

I'm sort of coming around to a compromise somewhere in the middle, restricting access to such weapons while at the same time increasing funding for school security, perhaps even putting in place regulations on what minimum security schools should have. Putting up electronic locks and security cameras is pointless if you don't change out the glass in the doors, as in the case of Sandy Hook.

328 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:07:46am
That goes several ways, for a gun is ultimately just a tool. We can use to protect ourselves sometimes, or it can be used by those with evil intentions. What ever else is true, the weapon matters less than the mind behind it.

If Americans really treated guns as tools, they would be virtually gone from society. Any tool that serves no essential function and causes tens of thousands of deaths and even more injuries every year has no place in the household.

But Americans don't think guns are tools. They treat them as magic totems of a sacred religion, that are givers of life, law and freedom. And as such, they cannot be questioned or impugned, and cannot be implicated with anything negative. And the only acceptable suggestion is to have more of them, because suggesting otherwise displeases the sacred Gun.

329 Mattand  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:08:16am

re: #325 ProMayaLiberal

We are essentially being told by the nutcases to sacrifice Children in the name of them being able to own an AR-15.

This, sadly.

330 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:08:35am

re: #320 Mattand

I hate to harp on the Marine, as his gesture was born out of love and concern for his family and others, but is that where we want to take this?

Turning our elementary schools into fortresses with military guard and armed instructors, instead of instituting tighter control on the easy availability of lethal weapons.

This is not good. For anyone.

I think Lawhawk nailed it (which he usually does): All this talk about schools is ignoring the larger problem of mass-shootings occurring everywhere. Are we going to start posting Marines at every institution, every movie theater, every mall....? At what point does it end?

331 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:08:38am

re: #323 GunstarGreen

The same kind of thing plays out in the remake of BSG.

332 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:08:56am

re: #324 darthstar

If you want to protect yourself, get a shotgun. Big noise, wide pattern, no chance of going through two walls and across the street to kill someone if you miss your target.

Sound of pump-action putting round in chamber very distinctive and thus a warning of imminent threat.

333 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:09:35am

re: #332 Feline Fearless Leader

Sound of pump-action putting round in chamber very distinctive and thus a warning of imminent threat.

It's internationally understood as "Kiss your ass goodbye."

334 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:09:47am
We are essentially being told by the nutcases to sacrifice Children in the name of them being able to own an AR-15.

We're not just being told that by the 'nutcases'. We're told that every time someone says that they don't want to restrict the 'responsible' gun owners.

335 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:11:10am

re: #330 Ghost of Tom Joad

I think Lawhawk nailed it (which he usually does): All this talk about schools is ignoring the larger problem of mass-shootings occurring everywhere. Are we going to start posting Marines at every institution, every movie theater, every mall....? At what point does it end?

America as armed camp to keep out the foreigners of course. And it appears that 30% or so of the population is convinced that they actually want that.

Franklin and most of the Founders would be too busy having heart attacks to laugh.

336 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:11:13am

re: #320 Mattand

I hate to harp on the Marine, as his gesture was born out of love and concern for his family and others, but is that where we want to take this?

Turning our elementary schools into fortresses with military guard and armed instructors, instead of instituting tighter control on the easy availability of lethal weapons.

This is not good. For anyone.

Agreed. Its a gimmick. And if his presence is supposed to make kids feel safer, what are they supposed to think when he is not there.

337 Mattand  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:11:57am

re: #334 Renaissance_Man

We're not just being told that by the 'nutcases'. We're told that every time someone says that they don't want to restrict the 'responsible' gun owners.

I'm going to a family Xmas party on Sunday. It'll definitely be interesting, as there will be a few gun owners there. The combo of open racism and "pry it from my cold dead hand" logic is going to be just lovely.

338 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:12:21am

re: #334 Renaissance_Man

I'm skeptical to that point. Most of those lunatics are the ones fantasizing about going with those guns and doing things to people who don't agree with them.

Why I Want to Leave Colorado Springs.txt

339 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:12:33am

re: #318 Dark_Falcon

Well trained people are never cheap, which is why real soldiers cost far more than rag-tag militiamen. But a man who can keep his head should be able to own a weapon to protect himself and his family.

I am talking more about people we hire to protect others in public places, especially crowded ones. Even to protect your own family in your own home, you need a degree of training not to wind up shooting yourself or your loved ones...

340 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:12:46am

re: #335 Feline Fearless Leader

The hell was that Denzel/Bruce movie, The Siege? Reminds me of that when they brought the army into Brooklyn? or the Bronx?

341 Mich-again  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:12:53am

I find it ironic that so many of the people who revere the military are the ones arming themselves to the teeth in case they have to rise up against the government.

342 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:13:07am

I used to be against linking to Business Insider, but in the past 9 months the site has gotten massively better, with greatly improved article and the removal of conspiracy theorists. Here, Joe Weisenthal hammers Grover Norquist:

Grover Norquist's Support For Boehner's New Plan Exposed A Dirty Secret About His Pledge

In a statement, his group specifically said:

ATR has consistently maintained that individual Members of Congress make a pledge to their constituents to oppose and vote against tax increases. The House this week will vote on a tax bill. This legislation—popularly known as “Plan B”--permanently prevents a tax increase on families making less than $1 million per year. Republicans supporting this bill are this week affirming to their constituents in writing that this bill—the sole purpose of which is to prevent tax increases—is consistent with the pledge they made to them. In ATR’s analysis, it is extremely difficult—if not impossible—to fault these Republicans’ assertion.

The line of reasoning is basically: The vast majority of people are getting a permanently lower tax bill, and taxes only rise on those making $1 million for passive reasons. Nobody is voting for a tax hike. It's just what happens under current law.

The problem is: There is literally no logical reason why this would not apply to those making $250K or more, which is where Democrats would like to draw the line. Voting to extend the Bush tax cuts on everyone below $250K, and then letting the other taxes rise passively is by the same logic not voting for a tax cut.

The secret is that the pledge really has no bearing in this debate. There never has to be a vote to raise taxes. There are only votes that extend some tax cuts, while leaving others untouched.

343 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:13:55am
If you want to protect yourself, get a shotgun. Big noise, wide pattern, no chance of going through two walls and across the street to kill someone if you miss your target.

No, don't get a shotgun. FFS. All that does is let you play pretend that the gun will make you safer, because despite your minimal training consisting of watching a lot of movies and cuddling the shotgun you will manage to outshoot an armed assailant who has the element of surprise. And somehow you imagine you'll manage to do this despite being sleepy, or confused, or scared, or unable to fucking find the gun in the first place.

All the evidence demonstrates that having a gun on your person or in the home makes you more likely to be killed or injured, not less. If you actually want to be safe instead of playing pretend, don't add something to the home that will make you let safe.

344 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:14:00am

"Responsible gun owners" might want a word with The Freedom Group:

Genius Among Us (And Bushmaster)

Well, it makes for some entertaining if sometimes macabre and occasionally gross reading. You’ve got fairly candid discussions of male insecurity as a decent on-going growth opportunity, women as a new source of gun purchases and a general migration from hunting and target shooting toward gun ownership as a way of simply feeling more awesome.

The part that got me though was the prospects of the 2012 election.

As the filing put it, “We believe the continued economic uncertainty and the 2012 presidential election is likely to continue to spur handgun and certain rifle sales.”

345 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:14:07am

re: #322 Mattand

I actually agree. Turning the local preschool into Fort Bragg, as many conservatives are calling for, is pretending there's no gun problem in the US.

There isn't one!!! There is a secularist, feminist, moral relativisit, mental health, family values problem. Not a gun problem.

346 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:14:56am

re: #341 Mich-again

I find it ironic that so many of the people who revere the military are the ones arming themselves to the teeth in case they have to rise up against the government.

I always thought that was something too. Mental gymnastics at its best.

347 I Am Kreniigh!  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:15:00am

Fox News asks Santa if the ‘War on Christmas’ is real

It is a sad indictment of our culture that we no longer honor this holiest of days, when Santa Claus was born.

348 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:15:11am

re: #337 Mattand

I'm going to a family Xmas party on Sunday. It'll definitely be interesting, as there will be a few gun owners there. The combo of open racism and "pry it from my cold dead hand" logic is going to be just lovely.

Play them that scene from the first Red Dawn where Colt .45 is sitting in a cold, dead hand under a bumper sticker with that motto. Then a Soviet paratrooper picks it up as a trophy.

I'm afraid I always giggle at that scene.

349 darthstar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:15:26am

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

Anybody who signs a pledge to a lobbyist which then influences their votes as an elected representative to their constituents doesn't deserve to hold office.

350 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:16:10am

re: #343 Renaissance_Man

Get a loud security system instead. Your child can't find that and shoot himself or somebody else.

351 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:16:15am

re: #337 Mattand

I'm going to a family Xmas party on Sunday. It'll definitely be interesting, as there will be a few gun owners there. The combo of open racism and "pry it from my cold dead hand" logic is going to be just lovely.

There's a dinner at my brother's this weekend that his neighbors will be invited too. They're a bit more religious and right wing than my brother's family. Hopefully the politics will not come up. Especially if some friends of my SIL are there since the husband is a classical liberal Englishman who will talk politics and national healthcare.

(Usually these dinners are pretty interesting since it's a good mix of backgrounds and a fairly educated group. If large enough it tends to break into two groups; one bunch playing mahjongg and chatting in Cantonese, and the others in the other room playing cards or some other game and chatting in English.)

352 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:16:53am

re: #330 Ghost of Tom Joad

In the same week as the Newtown massacre, there was a guy who shot more than 50 rounds at a California shopping mall (his excuse was that this was his way of venting). No one was thankfully injured.

And for those who tout the Israel example of an armed populace, Israel has seen mass casualty terror attacks everywhere imaginable. Airports. Schools. Restaurants. Bars. Shopping malls.

Every public place is a potential target. Israel's counter-terrorism and prevention are admirable, but not foolproof or impregnable. Israel's solutions have involved checkpoints, security fences, etc., to disarm those that are intent upon carrying out those attacks.

Even our own experience in the US shows that public spaces are potential targets, not just schools and universities. We've repeatedly seen shopping malls targeted. Supermarkets. Churches/synagogues/mosques/temples.

During the High Holy Days, synagogues in the NYC metro area have police standing by in addition to the regular shul security staff because of the all-too-familiar terror threat. Do we really want that everywhere?

353 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:17:07am

re: #340 Ghost of Tom Joad

The hell was that Denzel/Bruce movie, The Siege? Reminds me of that when they brought the army into Brooklyn? or the Bronx?

Brooklyn. It featured a hypothetical example of the CIA practice we now know to be called 'Rendition'.

354 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:17:13am

re: #325 ProMayaLiberal

We are essentially being told by the nutcases to sacrifice Children in the name of them being able to own an AR-15.

Yeah, this. And it's what has me angry.

355 Mattand  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:17:21am

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

I used to be against linking to Business Insider, but in the past 9 months the site has gotten massively better, with greatly improved article and the removal of conspiracy theorists. Here, Joe Weisenthal hammers Grover Norquist:

Grover Norquist's Support For Boehner's New Plan Exposed A Dirty Secret About His Pledge

1) Permanently banning raising taxes below $1 million? Boehner realizes that they got their asses kicked last month, right?

2) I cannot say this enough: fuck Grover Norquist. I want to punch my monitor every time I see this troll mentioned in the news. The man is an unelected official. The amount of destruction he's wreaking on our economy should earn him prison time.

356 Mattand  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:18:41am

re: #347 I Am Kreniigh!

Fox News asks Santa if the ‘War on Christmas’ is real

It is a sad indictment of our culture that we no longer honor this holiest of days, when Santa Claus was born.

Santa then went on to blame all gays for Benghazi.

357 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:19:21am

re: #340 Ghost of Tom Joad

The hell was that Denzel/Bruce movie, The Siege? Reminds me of that when they brought the army into Brooklyn? or the Bronx?

_V for Vendetta_ would cover it. Prevalent constant surveillance, curfews, and security armed with automatic weapons all over the place. Essentially a poisoned culture trying to claim normalcy.

358 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:19:26am

re: #352 lawhawk

In the same week as the Newtown massacre, there was a guy who shot more than 50 rounds at a California shopping mall (his excuse was that this was his way of venting). No one was thankfully injured.

And for those who tout the Israel example of an armed populace, Israel has seen mass casualty terror attacks everywhere imaginable. Airports. Schools. Restaurants. Bars. Shopping malls.

Every public place is a potential target. Israel's counter-terrorism and prevention are admirable, but not foolproof or impregnable. Israel's solutions have involved checkpoints, security fences, etc., to disarm those that are intent upon carrying out those attacks.

Even our own experience in the US shows that public spaces are potential targets, not just schools and universities. We've repeatedly seen shopping malls targeted. Supermarkets. Churches/synagogues/mosques/temples.

During the High Holy Days, synagogues in the NYC metro area have police standing by in addition to the regular shul security staff because of the all-too-familiar terror threat. Do we really want that everywhere?

To be clear though, that guy in Cali wasn't aiming at anyone. It's lucky no one was hurt, but he doesn't appear to have been a would-be murderer. He's a jackass, not a shithead.

359 Mattand  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:19:54am

re: #352 lawhawk

During the High Holy Days, synagogues in the NYC metro area have police standing by in addition to the regular shul security staff because of the all-too-familiar terror threat. Do we really want that everywhere?

If you're a sane person, no.

360 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:20:20am

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

To be clear though, that guy in Cali wasn't aiming at anyone. It's lucky no one was hurt, but he doesn't appear to have been a would-be murderer. He's a jackass, not a shithead.

Nonetheless, we should make sure that our shopping malls are all armed so they can defend themselves!

361 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:20:37am

re: #311 Targetpractice

They are in this case. Inside sources were saying that Boehner made his "threat" to Obama only after having a fight with the majority whip over getting enough votes to pass "Plan B" in the House. Word is that they had to cram some more spending cuts in it in the hopes of winning over reluctant Tea Partiers. And even then, they're not sure they have enough.

Yeah cuts to those making under 50K

BS

362 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:20:45am

re: #356 Mattand

Santa then went on to blame all gays for Benghazi.

Nothing like "Coveting thy neighbors' goods" to celebrate a religious holiday.

363 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:20:48am

re: #354 HappyWarrior

Liberals need to come out and say you have two choices:

A)Ban Modern-Type Semi Autos or

B)Go to the system Gun-Wise Norway, Sweden, or Finland has.

That's it.

364 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:21:05am

re: #355 Mattand

1) Permanently banning raising taxes below $1 million? Boehner realizes that they got their asses kicked last month, right?

2) I cannot say this enough: fuck Grover Norquist. I want to punch my monitor every time I see this troll mentioned in the news. The man is an unelected official. The amount of destruction he's wreaking on our economy should earn him prison time.

Not to worry, while Norquist is giving this "Plan" his blessing, Heritage and the Club for Growth have rejected it and promised to primary anybody who votes for it.

365 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:21:18am

re: #328 Renaissance_Man

If Americans really treated guns as tools, they would be virtually gone from society. Any tool that serves no essential function and causes tens of thousands of deaths and even more injuries every year has no place in the household.

But Americans don't think guns are tools. They treat them as magic totems of a sacred religion, that are givers of life, law and freedom. And as such, they cannot be questioned or impugned, and cannot be implicated with anything negative. And the only acceptable suggestion is to have more of them, because suggesting otherwise displeases the sacred Gun.

This is my big thing with CCW. I have been really unnerved since finding out how incredibly lax the standards are for who can get and keep a CCW in many states. The counterargument to this is "Well, most CCW owners never get into any trouble or have accidents, so what's the problem?" To me, that's backwards: The only purpose of carrying around a gun is to use it in a crisis situation. If you can't prove that you can use it in a crisis situation, then the gun is useless, not a tool, just an accessory, and a dangerous one.

This actually applies to people who keep guns for home self-defense, too, though obviously it's a much more limited set of crisis situations that have be dealt with.

366 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:21:43am

re: #355 Mattand

1) Permanently banning raising taxes below $1 million? Boehner realizes that they got their asses kicked last month, right?

2) I cannot say this enough: fuck Grover Norquist. I want to punch my monitor every time I see this troll mentioned in the news. The man is an unelected official. The amount of destruction he's wreaking on our economy should earn him prison time.

That's the problem. They don't want to acknowledge they lost. And I agree fuck Norquist. What has he done to deserve this influence? Of course, maybe if Republican elected officials had told him to go fuck off years ago when he was just a nobody, they wouldn't be so beholden to him but no they had to sign his stupid feel good pledge that doesn't live in reality and only lives in the minds of morons that think you can fix the deficit through spending cuts alone.

367 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:22:09am

re: #363 ProMayaLiberal

Liberals need to come out and say you have two choices:

A)Ban Modern-Type Semi Autos or

B)Go to the system Gun-Wise Norway, Sweden, or Finland has.

That's it.

I would like to know what B is.

368 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:23:09am
369 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:23:43am

re: #368 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

[Embedded content]

10 murders a day, but no shooting rampages. Odd, huh?

//

370 Mattand  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:23:43am

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

To be clear though, that guy in Cali wasn't aiming at anyone. It's lucky no one was hurt, but he doesn't appear to have been a would-be murderer. He's a jackass, not a shithead.

Dude, you're a smart person. You're really not going to excuse this behavior like that, are you?

Goddamn, DF, how the hell do you know he wasn't a would-be murderer? This idiot fired off a large amount of ammo in a public space. But somehow, he's not all bad because a stray bullet didn't actually kill a kid?

This is America's gun problem. Right. Fucking. Here.

371 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:23:57am

re: #365 Obdicut

I'd favor training standards for CCW, myself. If you want to carry a gun in public, you need to show you know how to use it.

372 darthstar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:25:35am

re: #343 Renaissance_Man

No, don't get a shotgun. FFS. All that does is let you play pretend that the gun will make you safer, because despite your minimal training consisting of watching a lot of movies and cuddling the shotgun you will manage to outshoot an armed assailant who has the element of surprise.

I find the idea that there are 'armed assailants' throughout this country that we need to worry about so much a little disturbing. It really is something out of a bad movie script. You should get a Glock for home protection. Yeah, right.

The reason I told DF to get a shotgun is not because it will make him safer. It will make those who live 100 yards away from him safer. If he doesn't want armed assailants coming into his house, he shouldn't have three kilos of coke on the coffee table.

By the way, one time in college I went to my dealer friend's house for a morning bump (around 5am), and he was sitting there holding a 9mm with 60,000 dollars in cash and a shitload of coke in front of him...paranoid as fuck he'd get ripped off before completing his deal. I told him he was getting too deep and that was the last time I ever saw him.

373 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:25:40am

Half of America can't figure out how it's already 12/21/2012 in New Zealand already.

[Banjo music]

374 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:27:03am

re: #373 Gus

Half of America can't figure out how it's already 12/21/2012 in New Zealand already.

[Banjo music]

How do you know there's still a New Zealand?

//

375 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:27:07am

re: #368 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

[Embedded content]

And he's exaggerating, too. Chicago's murder rate does not average out at 10 per day. I don't like liars.

376 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:27:17am

re: #373 Gus

Half of America can't figure out how it's already 12/21/2012 in New Zealand already.

[Banjo music]

hmmmm,, no wonder my call to Aukland went unanswered this morning!!

377 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:27:55am

re: #373 Gus

Half of America can't figure out how it's already 12/21/2012 in New Zealand already.

[Banjo music]

Okay, I'm guilty. I hadn't thought of that.

378 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:27:56am

re: #367 HappyWarrior

AR-15s are legal in the latter 2, and likely the first as well. However, you must be well trained, have a special licence, and specific reason to have it (e.g. Hunting (Only for Finland) and Sport Shooting).

In addition, all weapons are registered with the Police,undergo very rigorous Criminal and Mental Background Checks, always be locked up when not in use, and a restriction on the amount of Ammo, with a special permit need for more.

379 darthstar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:28:17am

re: #371 Dark_Falcon

I'd favor training standards for CCW, myself. If you want to carry a gun in public, you need to show you know how to use it.

I'm glad you only like to talk a lot about guns and don't actually own any. There should be more gun enthusiasts like you.

380 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:28:27am

re: #376 sattv4u2

hmmmm,, no wonder my call to Aukland went unanswered this morning!!

Giant sheep gnawing through cabling.

381 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:28:28am

re: #376 sattv4u2

hmmmm,, no wonder my call to Aukland went unanswered this morning!!

Trying to get Les Mis takes from Russell Crowe?

382 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:29:10am

re: #378 ProMayaLiberal

AR-15s are legal in the latter 2, and likely the first as well. However, you must be well trained, have a special licence, and specific reason to have it (e.g. Hunting (Only for Finland) and Sport Shooting).

In addition, all weapons are registered with the Police,undergo very rigorous Criminal and Mental Background Checks, always be locked up when not in use, and a restriction on the amount of Ammo, with a special permit need for more.

Thanks.

383 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:29:15am

re: #379 darthstar

I'm glad you only like to talk a lot about guns and don't actually own any. There should be more gun enthusiasts like you.

I'm...not quite sure whether or not to feel insulted.

/

384 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:30:07am

re: #380 Gus

Giant sheep gnawing through cabling.

These ones?

385 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:30:16am

When God said the world was gonna end on 12/21/2012 He meant America time.

386 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:30:38am

re: #385 Gus

But wouldn't that make it 12/22/2012 in New Zealand?

387 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:30:49am

re: #368 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

388 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:31:11am

re: #376 sattv4u2

hmmmm,, no wonder my call to Aukland went unanswered this morning!!

The Great Auk hasn't been taking calls since 1852 or so.

389 BongCrodny  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:31:46am

re: #357 Feline Fearless Leader

_V for Vendetta_ would cover it. Prevalent constant surveillance, curfews, and security armed with automatic weapons all over the place. Essentially a poisoned culture trying to claim normalcy.

The graphic novel was a hell of a lot more scary (and thought-provoking) than the movie.

390 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:32:10am

re: #386 Targetpractice

But wouldn't that make it 12/22/2012 in New Zealand?

Yep.

391 Kronocide  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:32:30am

Guns don't kill people. Tough gun laws kill people.

Sounds legit.

392 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:32:42am

re: #343 Renaissance_Man

No, don't get a shotgun. FFS. All that does is let you play pretend that the gun will make you safer, because despite your minimal training consisting of watching a lot of movies and cuddling the shotgun you will manage to outshoot an armed assailant who has the element of surprise. And somehow you imagine you'll manage to do this despite being sleepy, or confused, or scared, or unable to fucking find the gun in the first place.

All the evidence demonstrates that having a gun on your person or in the home makes you more likely to be killed or injured, not less. If you actually want to be safe instead of playing pretend, don't add something to the home that will make you let safe.

People do use shotguns to protect themselves at home quite successfully without somehow killing themselves through incompetence. The meme you perpetuate here of the 'super, unbeatable and all knowing criminal' who will always have the drop on you and will always be more competent than you (but magically will not be if a police officer arrives who qualifies at about 60% with his weapon once every 18 months) is one of the biggest problems I have had with anti gun progressives.

It's utter bullshit.

Generally, you have surprise factor working for you. It's your house and you know it...even in the dark! Criminals know that also, and a survey about twenty years ago of convicted felons revealed that most of them admitted to having passed up on a burglary/home invasion scheme because of specific fear that the owners inside would be armed.

Also, the 'guns make you less safe' evidence is dependent on a couple of other things that are left out of that little venn diagram:
1) Do you have anger problems or severe depression issues that might make gun ownership problematic? Mental illness? This is nothing to be ashamed of, and self awareness is key.
2) Do you own a gun for self protection but have never fired it and are actually somewhat afraid of the thing?
3) Are you careless about leaving it out and loaded for kids to get their hands on? Are you ignorant of proper, safe procedures?

If you answer yes to any of the above, then I agree...a gun will make you less safe.

For those people who do not have these challenges, the choice should be entirely up them.

Now, if some of my fellow lizards want to call me a 'gun nut' over this, all I can do is shrug my shoulders. I do think that some gun control is necessary, and I would start with dumping the gun show exemption to background checks and then move on to mandatory gun locks or safes.

Truth be told, I have spent far, far more money on Warhammer 40K then I have even spent on firearms and ammunition.

393 BongCrodny  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:32:50am

re: #347 I Am Kreniigh!

Fox News asks Santa if the ‘War on Christmas’ is real

It is a sad indictment of our culture that we no longer honor this holiest of days, when Santa Claus was born.

I see that Santa's real name is Sal Lizard.

I wonder if we could get him to drop by here for a spell. :-)

394 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:33:04am

re: #382 HappyWarrior

Forgot to mention. There is no such thing as open carry or concealed carry. This quote should be a good summary:

The owner must always have a good reason to bring the weapon to a public place. Such reasons include transportation to a range or hunting area, transportation for repairs, or for maintenance and hobby activities.

During transportation, the weapon must be empty and concealed, but not worn on the body, and under the constant supervision of the owner. This applies equally to replicas, air guns and decommissioned firearms.

395 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:33:21am

re: #390 Gus

Yep.

By European reckoning it will be 21-12. Break out those vintage Rush albums!!!

396 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:34:26am

Guns don't kill people but they sure do help.

397 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:35:06am

An Open Letter from a PTA Mom to Mike Huckabee: A Message for Those Who Long for God’s Presence in Schools

Dear Mr. Huckabee,

We all share in great sorrow and grief from last week’s horrific events in Newtown, CT. I would like to think that it was overwhelming sadness from the loss of life that led you to state on Friday that the reason behind the mass killings of first graders and their educators was we have “systematically removed God” from public schools. I would like to think profound sorrow and shock were the reason for your misguided remarks. Unfortunately, cynicism leads me to believe that you made such statements for political posturing or perhaps to keep up with the conservative radio shock jocks.

Regardless of your motivation, I want to suggest that you visit your local public school before passing such judgment in the future. If you visited a neighborhood elementary school like Sandy Hook, or any public school for that matter, you would see that God’s presence and the teachings of Jesus Christ are well represented by the works of the people in those buildings. Now perhaps His presence isn’t seen in the way you want – there aren’t readings from the Bible (or any other religious texts for that matter) and the Ten Commandments aren’t posted in classrooms (nor are the Pillars of Islam, actually), but His presence and teachings are instead practiced, demonstrated, and felt. You see, Mr. Huckabee, if you visited the schools you quickly denounce for removing your symbols of God, you’d find that His work actually takes places there every day.

398 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:35:25am

re: #396 HappyWarrior

Guns don't kill people but they sure do help.

Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people.

Sorry, was channeling Charlton Heston there for a second.//

399 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:36:10am

re: #379 darthstar

I'm glad you only like to talk a lot about guns and don't actually own any. There should be more gun enthusiasts like you.

I'm a tech and weapons enthusiast, but my favoring of the right to own a handgun shouldn't be read to mean that I personally intend to own one. When my life evens off, I'd like a rifle, but 7.62, not 5.56. Something with some range that takes skill to use. But I'd prefer to use a collapsible baton or rattan cane instead of a handgun.

400 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:37:04am

re: #395 Sol Berdinowitz

By European reckoning it will be 21-12. Break out those vintage Rush albums!!!

Heck, they're already several billion years off already. The Earth passed the year 2012 many moons ago. On a serious note, law enforcement should probably be on alert for crazies tomorrow.

401 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:37:21am

re: #374 Targetpractice

How do you know there's still a New Zealand?

//

It's not like there will be evidence.

402 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:37:30am

re: #357 Feline Fearless Leader

_V for Vendetta_ would cover it. Prevalent constant surveillance, curfews, and security armed with automatic weapons all over the place. Essentially a poisoned culture trying to claim normalcy.

You're gonna love this:

Paragould, Arkansas Mayor Mike Gaskill and Police Chief Todd Stovall announced at a December 14 Town Hall meeting that beginning in 2013 the streets of their city were going to be patrolled by police officers bearing SWAT gear and AR-15s. “If you’re out walking, we’re going to stop you, ask why you’re out walking, and check for your ID.”
The move comes in response to a recent increase in violent crime. In a city with a population of only 26,113, Paragould had 86 rapes, robberies and assaults in 2010 and those numbers are expected to nearly double for 2012. Paragould currently has a City-Data crime index rating of 465.0, well above the national average of 309.3.
Property crime statistics in Paragould are even more alarming. While the national average for burglary, theft and auto theft is at 7 for every 1,000 people, the Paragould average is 20.14.
Police Chief Stovall told citizens attending the Town Hall meeting that he did not consult an attorney before making plans to institute what he considers martial law. He also announced that task force members could stop anyone they wanted to and didn’t even need to be looking for a specific suspect on the streets.
According to Stovall, any individual who does not produce identification could be charged with obstructing a governmental operation.

403 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:37:58am

re: #392 celticdragon

People do use shotguns to protect themselves at home quite successfully without somehow killing themselves through incompetence. The meme you perpetuate here of the 'super, unbeatable and all knowing criminal' who will always have the drop on you and will always be more competent than you (but magically will not be if a police officer arrives who qualifies at about 60% with his weapon once every 18 months) is one of the biggest problems I have had with anti gun progressives.

It's utter bullshit.

Generally, you have surprise factor working for you. It's your house and you know it...even in the dark! Criminals know that also, and a survey about twenty years ago of convicted felons revealed that most of them admitted to having passed up on a burglary/home invasion scheme because of specific fear that the owners inside would be armed.

Also, the 'guns make you less safe' evidence is dependent on a couple of other things that are left out of that little venn diagram:
1) Do you have anger problems or severe depression issues that might make gun ownership problematic? Mental illness? This is nothing to be ashamed of, and self awareness is key.
2) Do you own a gun for self protection but have never fired it and are actually somewhat afraid of the thing?
3) Are you careless about leaving it out and loaded for kids to get their hands on? Are you ignorant of proper, safe procedures?

If you answer yes to any of the above, then I agree...a gun will make you less safe.

For those people who do not have these challenges, the choice should be entirely up them.

Now, if some of my fellow lizards want to call me a 'gun nut' over this, all I can do is shrug my shoulders. I do think that some gun control is necessary, and I would start with dumping the gun show exemption to background checks and then move on to mandatory gun locks or safes.

Truth be told, I have spent far, far more money on Warhammer 40K then I have even spent on firearms and ammunition.

Quoted For Truth.

404 Kronocide  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:38:22am

re: #397 Lidane

An Open Letter from a PTA Mom to Mike Huckabee: A Message for Those Who Long for God’s Presence in Schools

My letter would be mush shorter and to the point:

Fuck off backwards ass Vanilla Taliban douchebag. You're what's wrong with this country.

405 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:38:47am

re: #397 Lidane

An Open Letter from a PTA Mom to Mike Huckabee: A Message for Those Who Long for God’s Presence in Schools

Good letter. Too bad Huckabee will ignore it and continue to rage against secularism as if non-religion causes violence. And in my observation of those who rail against public schools, they know nothing about the reality of what goes on in a public school. When they say that you can't pray or something really outlandish like homosexuality is being taught. I just laugh my ass off because I know they're just making crazy shit up.

406 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:38:54am

re: #400 Gus

Heck, they're already several billion years off already. The Earth passed the year 2012 many moons ago. On a serious note, law enforcement should probably be on alert for crazies tomorrow.

Told my sister that tomorrow everybody will party like it's the end of the world. Then come Saturday, they'll all wake up wishing it had.

407 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:39:56am

re: #402 celticdragon

And why do I suspect that who they stop and ask ID from is going to unexpectedly favor non-whites?
//

408 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:40:04am

re: #404 Kronocide

My letter would be mush shorter and to the point:

Fuck off backwards ass Vanilla Taliban douchebag. You're what's wrong with this country.

And go piss up a rope too. Seriously, Mike Huckabee who raised a son that tortured a dog shouldn't be lecturing other people on their morals.

409 BongCrodny  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:40:10am

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

To be clear though, that guy in Cali wasn't aiming at anyone. It's lucky no one was hurt, but he doesn't appear to have been a would-be murderer. He's a jackass, not a shithead.

*****

Authorities said he began firing about 4:30 p.m. Saturday in a parking lot near Macy's. Frightened shoppers ran and store owners locked their doors as police arrived at the upscale, open-air mall.

I'd go with both jackass and shithead.

410 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:41:04am

re: #409 BongCrodny

I'd go with both jackass and shithead.

Maybe he should go get a nice video game to use to blow off steam rather than shooting bullets at a mall.
/

411 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:41:55am

re: #409 BongCrodny

I'd go with both jackass and shithead.

That works.

412 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:43:02am

re: #410 Feline Fearless Leader

Maybe he should go get a nice video game to use to blow off steam rather than shooting bullets at a mall.
/

Hopefully he gets to play them during his 20-year prison sentence.

413 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:44:16am

re: #405 HappyWarrior

Good letter. Too bad Huckabee will ignore it and continue to rage against secularism as if non-religion causes violence. And in my observation of those who rail against public schools, they know nothing about the reality of what goes on in a public school. When they say that you can't pray or something really outlandish like homosexuality is being taught. I just laugh my ass off because I know they're just making crazy shit up.

These people have a very narrow view of what comprises "secularism", namely "anything outside my bigoted view of what *true* religion is".

414 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:44:46am

re: #402 celticdragon

You're gonna love this:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

415 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:52:28am

re: #414 Eventual Carrion

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

'Who cares? I've got to put on a big show or the voters are gonna throw me out on my ass next year! Somebody sues? Let 'em! The people who get arrested will mostly plead out to something minor, and if the law gets overturned we can blame crime on 'the judges'." - Asshole public official, Anytown, USA

417 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 8:59:31am

I just learned why our Zionist Checks are gonna be late this month, they got sent to the wrong place:

Worshippers usually leave notes to the Almighty at one of Judaism's holiest sites. But half a billion dollars?

Rabbi Shmuel Rabinovitch, who oversees Jerusalem's Western Wall, said a worshipper found an envelope at the site Wednesday with 507 checks in the amount of about $1 million each. They were not addressed to anyone, and it's doubtful they can be cashed.

Rabinovitch said most are Nigerian. Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said some were from the United States, Europe and Asia.

418 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:00:31am

re: #417 Dark_Falcon

I just learned why our Zionist Checks are gonna be late this month, they got sent to the wrong place:

They must belong to me! That is the money that Nigerian prince said he was going to send to me as soon as I sent my bank details!!!

419 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:02:08am

re: #402 celticdragon

You're gonna love this:

"Pick up that can."

Mayor and police chief driven to totalitarian thuggery by teh video games!

420 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:04:33am
421 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:04:40am

re: #419 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

"Pick up that can."

[Embedded content]

What game is that from?

422 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:05:08am

re: #421 Dark_Falcon

What game is that from?

Half-Life 2.

423 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:05:48am
424 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:05:49am

a decent roundup of gun control claims from politifact: Fact-checks on gun control and gun violence

425 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:07:16am

re: #423 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Yes, America listen to the man who cheated on two ill wives about morality and ignore the fact that there are thousands of gay couples in stable and loving relationships. I wish Newt would just go away. Thanks 1994 America though for giving this egomaniac power though. Meh.

426 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:08:25am

re: #402 celticdragon

You're gonna love this:

Mostly false.

12/16/2012
"Armed Patrol" Clarifications

Recently, an article was written by the Paragould Daily Press regarding our Street Crimes Unit. Following the article's appearance, several questions and concerns have arisen from our citizens regarding the tactics and methods in which the unit would be operating under. At this time, we want to clarify the questions and concerns that are currently circulating in the community...

427 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:08:51am

re: #424 Killgore Trout

a decent roundup of gun control claims from politifact: Fact-checks on gun control and gun violence

Mostly ranging from Half-True to True, with the Brady Campaign earning the only False rating.

428 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:08:54am

re: #420 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Did who fake it?

429 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:09:00am

History lesson: Why the Bush tax cuts were enacted

With federal revenue soaring in 2000, generating budget surpluses, there was pent-up desire for a tax cut, especially among Republicans.

George W. Bush had just been elected on a pledge to cut taxes, but his plan did not get much traction among Democrats until then-Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan warned Congress of a dangerous new specter — that the government would pay down the national debt, and there would be no place to park excess funds.

“At zero debt, the continuing unified budget surpluses currently projected imply a major accumulation of private assets by the federal government,” he declared.

Yep, you read that right. The perceived danger was — believe it or not — that there would be no national debt left.

Greenspan, however, offered caveats and warnings that were largely ignored by Congress. In fact, he said that any tax cuts should have triggers that would halt them “if specified targets for the budget surplus and federal debt were not satisfied.”

In other words, the tax cuts would have been terminated or reduced, depending on the nation’s economic circumstances — precisely the tactic Republicans said was a non-starter in the 2011 debt-ceiling debate.

430 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:09:29am

re: #424 Killgore Trout

a decent roundup of gun control claims from politifact: Fact-checks on gun control and gun violence

There you go again, with the "facts"!!!

"but who fact checks the fact checkers, and who fact checks the fact checks fact checkers ,, and who,,,"

431 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:09:52am

re: #426 Gus

Mostly false.

12/16/2012
"Armed Patrol" Clarifications

This is the sub page linked over at Current...

Update: Armed SWAT Teams To Patrol Streets In Arkansas City
Update: Rita Sklar, executive director of ACLU-Arkansas, said that aspects of Paragould Police Chief Todd Stovall's plan to have officers dressed in SWAT gear and armed with AR-15 assault rifles demanding ID from citizens in high crime areas shows that he has "zero understanding of Constitutional rights, period." Meanwhile, the Paragould PD issued a statement yesterday cancelling further town hall meetings on the proposal, citing "public safety" concerns after a growing backlash about the proposal. Read Full Article
Donna Anderson
Infowars.com
December 17, 2012

432 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:10:31am

re: #427 Dark_Falcon

Mostly ranging from Half-True to True, with the Brady Campaign earning the only False rating.

I was surprised to see that too. I think that's an outlier for the Brady Campaign, they're usually fairly honest.

433 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:10:40am

re: #402 celticdragon

I'm thinking that some of those statistics being cited as a rationale are overblown if you look at longer term trends in the city. The overall crime rate is indeed higher than the national average, but the rape figures cited in your link are far higher than what we'd expect based on the past 10 years of data.

Yet, something strange is indeed going on there with the police force and their intentions.

At the same time, hearings on the matter have been cancelled.

I'd say something peculiar is going on in that town.

434 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:10:57am

re: #424 Killgore Trout

a decent roundup of gun control claims from politifact: Fact-checks on gun control and gun violence

In that picture, Biden is looking more and more like

Image: ATT00002.jpg

by the day!!

//

435 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:11:28am
Truth be told, I have spent far, far more money on Warhammer 40K then I have even spent on firearms and ammunition.

If you've also spent more time playing 40K than training with the much more deadly firearms you have, then the guns aren't making you safer. Your Space Marines are probably keeping you safer than your guns.

436 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:11:45am

re: #430 sattv4u2

There you go again, with the "facts"!!!

"but who fact checks the fact checkers, and who fact checks the fact checks fact checkers ,, and who,,,"

Beware the tyranny of the Fact Check- Industrial Complex!

437 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:12:10am

re: #433 lawhawk

I'm thinking that some of those statistics being cited as a rationale are overblown if you look at longer term trends in the city. The overall crime rate is indeed higher than the national average, but the rape figures cited in your link are far higher than what we'd expect based on the past 10 years of data.

Yet, something strange is indeed going on there with the police force and their intentions.

At the same time, hearings on the matter have been cancelled.

I'd say something peculiar is going on in that town.

Read 426 and 431.

438 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:15:05am

re: #402 celticdragon

You're gonna love this:

Ahem. That quote is from Infowars.

439 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:15:40am

re: #429 Killgore Trout

History lesson: Why the Bush tax cuts were enacted

Gah. I always thought that was stupid. Having an opportunity to pay down the national debt, and thus reduce the amount of money in the budget spent on paying debt interest was such an obvious thing to do.

The debt is essentially kicking things down the road. When you have a chance to do some catching up, do so.

That the cuts should have been rescinded once the economy went sour (and the source of the surplus went away) is obvious as well. But then again, that's assuming those in power have the interests of the country in mind as a priority over party and maintaining their seat. :p

440 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:16:20am

re: #423 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Wonder what multiple heterosexual divorces signal?

441 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:17:10am

re: #432 Killgore Trout

I was surprised to see that too. I think that's an outlier for the Brady Campaign, they're usually fairly honest.

No, they aren't.

442 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:17:10am

re: #440 Eventual Carrion

Wonder what multiple heterosexual divorces signal?

It's the women's fault. Something something feminazis.

443 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:17:34am

re: #440 Eventual Carrion

Wonder what multiple heterosexual divorces signal?

multiple heterosexual marriages???

444 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:17:58am

re: #439 Feline Fearless Leader

Gah. I always thought that was stupid. Having an opportunity to pay down the national debt, and thus reduce the amount of money in the budget spent on paying debt interest was such an obvious thing to do.

The debt is essentially kicking things down the road. When you have a chance to do some catching up, do so.

That the cuts should have been rescinded once the economy went sour (and the source of the surplus went away) is obvious as well. But then again, that's assuming those in power have the interests of the country in mind as a priority over party and maintaining their seat. :p

I agree. In hindsight they were clearly not a very good idea. Anyways, they were intended to be temporary.

445 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:18:20am
446 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:18:41am

re: #439 Feline Fearless Leader

re: #444 Killgore Trout

I agree. In hindsight they were clearly not a very good idea. Anyways, they were intended to be temporary.

Should have been a combo of some tax cutting AND some debt paying at the same time

447 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:19:01am

re: #445 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Wouldn't be WND without an anti Obama CT to push. Sigh. I hate people some times.

448 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:19:22am

I notice that, slowly but surely, the mental health deflection is starting to take on a new angle. Now, it's just being sold as the solution, but criticism or opposition to focusing strictly on it is being treated as if you're against increased mental health care access. "These people need help, why are you against that?" I don't know whether to just roll my eyes or read them the Riot Act for pulling this shit while they still support repealing Obamacare.

449 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:20:26am

re: #448 Targetpractice

I notice that, slowly but surely, the mental health deflection is starting to take on a new angle. Now, it's just being sold as the solution, but criticism or opposition to focusing strictly on it is being treated as if you're against increased mental health care access. "They people need help, why are you against that?" I don't know whether to just roll my eyes or read them the Riot Act for pulling this shit while they still support repealing Obamacare.

I know. Funny that huh.

450 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:21:16am

A brief mental break from all the derp and fail:

451 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:21:56am

re: #449 HappyWarrior

I know. Funny that huh.

Yep.

Arm the union thug teachers!

Repeal Obamacare in order to fund better mental health options for Americans!

Yelling as a distraction, obviously.

452 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:23:14am

re: #450 Lidane

A brief mental break from all the derp and fail:

[Embedded content]

That critter is a symbol of the way to peace: He's built for more listening and less yapping.

453 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:23:26am

re: #451 Feline Fearless Leader

Yep.

Arm the union thug teachers!

Repeal Obamacare in order to fund better mental health options for Americans!

Yelling as a distraction, obviously.

Yeah. I don't fucking get it. I also think the mental health angle is distracting from some other issues too. To clarify that, I think improving mental health care is important but it's not the only issue. I think we do the disabled a great disservice whenever we see a tragedy like this one and assume that the person must be mentally ill.

454 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:26:48am

re: #452 wrenchwench

That critter is a symbol of the way to peace: He's built for more listening and less yapping.

You'd need about 8 of them to make a half decent appetizer though!!

455 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:26:56am

re: #452 wrenchwench

That critter is a symbol of the way to peace: He's built for more listening and less yapping.

10 months later...

Image: 800px-10_Month_Old_Fennec_Fox.jpg

456 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:28:37am

re: #444 Killgore Trout

The only reason they were temporary is because that was the only available route to get them passed. If they had their way, they would have been permanent.

457 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:29:45am
458 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:30:00am

re: #447 HappyWarrior

Wouldn't be WND without an anti Obama CT to push. Sigh. I hate people some times.

The guy's column is called "The Other Rush", though he's actually nuttier than Limbaugh. That column is just an example of insane hate directed at Barack Obama.

459 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:30:45am

re: #458 Dark_Falcon

The guy's column is called "The Other Rush", though he's actually nuttier than Limbaugh. That column is just an example of insane hate directed at Barack Obama.

As I said, wouldn't be WND :). When have they ever been charitable to President Obama?

460 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:31:12am

re: #457 Gus

[Embedded content]

Sadly, it's often an 'easy cut'. It'll be harder this year, but expanding such programs will mean cuts elsewhere. What to do...

461 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:31:34am

Cantor just told the press that the GOP has the votes in the House to pass Boehner's "Plan B" in addition to a spending cut package that was whipped together to entice some of the holdouts. So I guess Boehner's press conference at 1:15 will be to declare that they have the votes and Obama better start begging or else they'll pass the bill.

462 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:32:12am

re: #457 Gus

[Embedded content]

Yeah this is part of the problem. We're more willing to slash "useless" programs because politicians are too afraid to be labeled tax hikers. Call me a crazy bastard here but I'd rather pay a little more in taxes if it would sustain some programs that do alot of good.

463 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:32:28am

re: #451 Feline Fearless Leader

Arm the union thug teachers!

464 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:32:47am

re: #459 HappyWarrior

As I said, wouldn't be WND :). When have they ever been charitable to President Obama?

Never. Farah has hated Obama since he first laid eyes on him in 2004.

465 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:33:38am

re: #463 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Could be a bigger bargaining chip for them than the unions.

//

466 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:34:47am

First pass anti-union legislation, then arm the teachers...you don't want these people attending public demostrations do you?

467 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:34:49am

re: #461 Targetpractice

Cantor just told the press that the GOP has the votes in the House to pass Boehner's "Plan B" in addition to a spending cut package that was whipped together to entice some of the holdouts. So I guess Boehner's press conference at 1:15 will be to declare that they have the votes and Obama better start begging or else they'll pass the bill.

So? It'll never get out of the senate to his desk. Let it die there and blame Boner when the sequestered cuts hit.

468 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:35:00am

re: #463 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Perhaps the teachers unions in Michigan should call up Snyder and ask, if they're expected to act like cops, if they'll be grandfathered into the union-busting exception that the FOP and IAFF were afforded.

469 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:35:20am

re: #461 Targetpractice

Cantor just told the press that the GOP has the votes in the House to pass Boehner's "Plan B" in addition to a spending cut package that was whipped together to entice some of the holdouts. So I guess Boehner's press conference at 1:15 will be to declare that they have the votes and Obama better start begging or else they'll pass the bill.

I hope Obama is willing to hold his ground (along with the Senate) and just let things go at this point. The GOP is trying to pull the same "We will compromise and get everything we want" stunt again.

470 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:36:57am

re: #467 William Barnett-Lewis

So? It'll never get out of the senate to his desk. Let it die there and blame Boner when the sequestered cuts hit.

That seems to be the plan. Boehner thinks it strengthens his hand in negotiations. Instead, it pretty much ends them with the advantage going to Obama. Now he gets to hit Boehner with raising taxes on the middle class, giving the rich further tax cuts, cutting entitlements yet again, and setting the stage for a debt limit showdown.

The Little Corporal was right, never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

471 gwangung  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:37:51am

re: #444 Killgore Trout

I agree. In hindsight they were clearly not a very good idea. Anyways, they were intended to be temporary.

Hindsight? A lot of us were arguing the very same thing at that moment.

472 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:38:12am

Boehner's gonna eventually get tossed out on his ass. A victim of his party's own creation.

473 gwangung  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:39:09am

re: #453 HappyWarrior

Yeah. I don't fucking get it. I also think the mental health angle is distracting from some other issues too. To clarify that, I think improving mental health care is important but it's not the only issue. I think we do the disabled a great disservice whenever we see a tragedy like this one and assume that the person must be mentally ill.

If you're arguing either/or, it's a deflection.

It's AND/AND.

474 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:39:09am

re: #460 Dark_Falcon

Sadly, it's often an 'easy cut'. It'll be harder this year, but expanding such programs will mean cuts elsewhere. What to do...

re: #462 HappyWarrior

Yeah this is part of the problem. We're more willing to slash "useless" programs because politicians are too afraid to be labeled tax hikers. Call me a crazy bastard here but I'd rather pay a little more in taxes if it would sustain some programs that do alot of good.

If you're curious you can look through this PDF:

State Mental Health Cuts: The Continuing Crisis
A report by the National Alliance on Mental Illness
November 2011

More figures there.

475 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:39:21am

re: #472 HappyWarrior

Boehner's gonna eventually get tossed out on his ass. A victim of his party's own creation.

Like I said up above, the Club for Growth and the Heritage Foundation have already said that anybody who votes for this bill is gonna get primaried. So you can be sure that if this doesn't yield more concessions from Obama, then Boehner's toast.

476 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:39:53am

Oh look!

Palin Slams Time Magazine For Naming Obama 'Person Of The Year'

Won't read. Won't link. Don't fucking care what this idiot thinks.

477 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:40:33am
478 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:40:37am

re: #470 Targetpractice

That seems to be the plan. Boehner thinks it strengthens his hand in negotiations. Instead, it pretty much ends them with the advantage going to Obama. Now he gets to hit Boehner with raising taxes on the middle class, giving the rich further tax cuts, cutting entitlements yet again, and setting the stage for a debt limit showdown.

The Little Corporal was right, never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

Hopefully Obama and the Democrats are learning to change their negotiating tactics with the GOP. The GOP has proven repeatedly in the past few years that they will not keep their word regarding agreements, and will also not take any political risks for the good of the country. Grover Norquist and the TPGOP owns them at this point and the rank and file GOP reps fear them more than they fear destroying the US economy and governmental safety net.

479 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:41:02am
480 prairiefire  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:42:32am

re: #461 Targetpractice

Cantor just told the press that the GOP has the votes in the House to pass Boehner's "Plan B" in addition to a spending cut package that was whipped together to entice some of the holdouts. So I guess Boehner's press conference at 1:15 will be to declare that they have the votes and Obama better start begging or else they'll pass the bill.

It won't pass in the Senate.

481 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:42:35am

re: #474 Gus

re: #462 HappyWarrior

If you're curious you can look through this PDF:

State Mental Health Cuts: The Continuing Crisis
A report by the National Alliance on Mental Illness
November 2011

More figures there.

Thanks a bunch.

482 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:43:09am
483 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:44:39am

re: #472 HappyWarrior

Boehner's gonna eventually get tossed out on his ass. A victim of his party's own creation.

Might as well replace him with a ventriloquist's dummy that is controlled by Limbaugh, DeMint and Norquist. Same results and the American taxpayer doesn't have to cover the extra perks.

484 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:44:43am

re: #479 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Just another lobbying group who thinks they can bully lawmakers. Fuckers.

485 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:47:40am

re: #466 Sol Berdinowitz

First pass anti-union legislation, then arm the teachers...you don't want these people attending public demostrations do you?

Maybe once trained to police the schools they can join the police union?

486 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:48:19am

re: #479 Lidane

In the 1990s, politicians backed by the NRA attacked researchers for publishing data on firearm research. For good measure, they also went after the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for funding the research. According to the NRA, such science is not “legitimate.” To make sure federal agencies got the message, Rep. Jay Dickey (R-Ark.) sponsored an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the CDC’s budget, the exact amount it had spent on firearms research the previous year.

487 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:48:48am

re: #24 Targetpractice

I keep looking at the list of US school shootings on Wiki and maybe I'm crazy, but I personally think the argument in favor of gun-free zones is strengthened by looking at that list than weakened. If you narrow the search to 3 or more deaths (definition I heard of a "massacre" elsewhere) and to the years since the Gun Free Zone Act's passage in '94, one thing you don't see is any major cities. Cities that have schools that are practically demilitarized zones with chain-link fences, barred windows, bulletproof glass, metal detectors, and security cameras don't show up. The majority of incidents are colleges, which are generally not the best places to find emotionally stable people, and small town schools where the most security you'll find is locks on the outside doors and perhaps a camera or two. Hell, in one case involving 4 deaths in '98, the guns never even came on school property, because the shooters were sniping students from the woods.

I agree, these shooters are not specifically going to the school because it is for a safe-place for them to rampage. They are specifically going to the school to kill a specific person, themselves and anyone else they can take with them.

We have 98K public schools in this country. I cannot fathom any way to keep each and everyone of them completely safe without turning the students into inmates. And then we open up a completely different can of worms regarding exploitation.

488 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:48:50am

Has Australia disappeared yet? It's Dec 21/2012 there already, so they should be a smouldering mass.

489 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:50:01am
490 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:50:24am

re: #474 Gus

re: #462 HappyWarrior

If you're curious you can look through this PDF:

State Mental Health Cuts: The Continuing Crisis
A report by the National Alliance on Mental Illness
November 2011

More figures there.

Thank you.

491 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:53:31am

Good morning lizards!

492 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:54:20am

re: #491 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards!

Yes, 'cept for the "morning" part!

493 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:54:51am

re: #488 b_sharp

Has Australia disappeared yet? It's Dec 21/2012 there already, so they should be a smouldering mass.

They hammered empty beer cans into a solar reflector. They're using it to cook shrimp and attempting to boil the Indian Ocean.

494 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:56:48am

re: #492 sattv4u2

Yes, 'cept for the "morning" part!

Oh, I see it's afternoon. I need to look at the clock.

495 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:57:05am

re: #492 sattv4u2

Yes, 'cept for the "morning" part!

Under thunderstorm watch here. Just dodged a tornado--coming your way, Satt.

496 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:57:09am

re: #494 NJDhockeyfan

Oh, I see it's afternoon. I need to look at the clock.

or a sundial

here, I'll unzip my pants!

497 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:57:38am

re: #495 Decatur Deb

Under thunderstorm watch here. Just dodged a tornado--coming your way, Satt.

Yeah, i just saw that!!

Toto,,,,, here, tie yourself to this brick!!

498 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:58:22am

re: #497 sattv4u2

Yeah, i just saw that!!

Toto,,,,, here, tie yourself to this brick!!

Sirens again.

499 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:58:43am

NOW WITH MOAR EDITZ!

500 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:58:58am

re: #498 Decatur Deb

Sirens again.

Be safe

Middle room,,,,, away from windows ,,,,,you know the drill

501 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:59:22am

re: #493 Feline Fearless Leader

They hammered empty beer cans into a solar reflector. They're using it to cook shrimp and attempting to boil the Indian Ocean.

Isn't advanced technology great.

502 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:59:41am

But I thought all teachers were just godless, jack-booted union thugs:

Lies! Jesus would have rushed the shooter or sent the children in as human shields!

///

503 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:00:14am

re: #497 sattv4u2

Yeah, i just saw that!!

Toto,,,,, here, tie yourself to this brick!!

I hope you have your ruby slippers on.

Or at least your ruby g-string.

504 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:00:43am

re: #426 Gus

Mostly false.

12/16/2012
"Armed Patrol" Clarifications

Why would you say it was false? The quotes were from statements made by the Chief of Police. Of course the police will say they are not violating your rights...they just may happen to have a very different understanding of your right to be on the street then you may have.

After a rather nasty round of public condemnation over the last three days, the Mayor is trying to walk back some of the comments. Two public hearings on the policy were cancelled due to "security concerns".

505 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:00:49am

What an ass. This is in Virginia, the school has the same name as the school in Ct.

Man Arrested at Strasburg Sandy Hook Elementary School

UDPATE: According to investigators at the Shenandoah County Sheriff's office, 33-year-old Christopher Johnson was met by school staff and then detained by a school resource officer for further investigation.

He was arrested and charged with disorderly conduct. Deputies say no one was injured from Wednesday's incident.

A spokesperson with the sheriff's office says he is from the Strasburg area.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Shenandoah County Sheriff's Office continues its investigation into why a man walked into Sandy Hook Elementary School with a board that had 'High Powered Rifle' written on it.

He has not been formally charged at this point, and they're not releasing his name yet. The sheriff's office does say that he's from the Strasburg area.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A man has been arrested at Strasburg's Sandy Hook Elementary School by the Shenandoah County Sheriff's Office.

According to a post on the Shenandoah County Sheriff's Office Facebook Page, "at approximately 11:40 AM (Wednesday), a 33-year-old male walked into Sandy Hook Elementary School with a four foot long, 2X4 board, labeled with the words 'High Powered Rifle.' He was met by school staff and then detained by one of our School Resource Officers for further investigation. He was then arrested and taken into custody without incident. There were no injuries."

We have a call into the sheriff's office for more information. Check back for updates.

506 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:01:31am

re: #503 b_sharp

I hope you have your ruby slippers on.

Or at least your ruby g-string.

I do.
(and thats why i don't sit!!)

507 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:02:05am

re: #505 NJDhockeyfan

What an ass. This is in Virginia, the school has the same name as the school in Ct.

Man Arrested at Strasburg Sandy Hook Elementary School

That's not too far from here. They were in the news a couple years back when the other Strausburg made his debut. What a fuckwit.

508 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:03:00am

re: #64 kirkspencer

Jackson acknowledged that restrictions of this sort could reduce the amount of firearm-related violence. "We need to stop deranged people from getting access to guns," he said.

This is a good point. IMHO

509 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:03:45am

And here in Charlottesville...

Albemarle to increase police patrols at schools following rumors of violence online

Albemarle County police are increasing patrols Thursday and Friday at county schools, after rumors swirled on social media this week of violence on Friday at Albemarle High School.

Friday marks the one-week anniversary of the shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn.

Police received no specific threat, and the rumor appeared to be unsubstantiated, but the department is responding in the abundance of caution, said Lt. Todd Hopwood of the Albemarle County police.

“We feel pretty confident that we have found where [the rumors] started at, so we feel pretty confident that it is just rumor,” Hopwood said. “We just heard about it that Twitter was abuzz with tweets about gun violence and something that was going to go on with gun violence on Friday.”

Twitter speculation centered on a possible shooting on Wednesday. Some students said they were worried about going to school.

“I don’t think the rumor was even that specific,” said Phil Giaramita, county schools spokesman. “It actually started a few days ago, and it was really tied to Friday … going to be the end of the world, and there was some speculation and rumors going around.”

Jay Thomas, Albemarle High principal, reassured parents on Wednesday that the school was taking the rumors seriously.

510 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:04:17am
511 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:04:41am

re: #504 celticdragon

Why would you say it was false? The quotes were from statements made by the Chief of Police. Of course the police will say they are not violating your rights...they just may happen to have a very different understanding of your right to be on the street then you may have.

After a rather nasty round of public condemnation over the last three days, the Mayor is trying to walk back some of the comments. Two public hearings on the policy were cancelled due to "security concerns".

The PD clarified...

12/16/2012
"Armed Patrol" Clarifications

Recently, an article was written by the Paragould Daily Press regarding our Street Crimes Unit. Following the article's appearance, several questions and concerns have arisen from our citizens regarding the tactics and methods in which the unit would be operating under. At this time, we want to clarify the questions and concerns that are currently circulating in the community.

First, let's look at the purpose of the Street Crimes Unit. The purpose of this unit is to increase police presence in high crime rate areas of the city. These areas are identified by examining reports generated from calls for service, and also from citizens who call the Police Department or City Hall with safety concerns in their neighborhoods. Once an area has been identified as a high crime neighborhood, the select group of officers will saturate the area in an attempt to curb the criminal behavior that is plaguing that particular neighborhood. Officers will accomplish this in a variety of different methods. Officers will be working to identify residents in the affected area so that we can better serve our affected neighborhoods. Most often, this identification process will be nothing more than making contact with a subject, handing them a business card, and asking if they live in the area and if there's anything we can do for them. During hours in which crime seems to be more prevalent (i.e. between the hours of 11pm and 5 am), our process will become more stringent. We will be asking for picture identification. We will be ascertaining where the subject lives and what they are doing in the area. We will be keeping a record of those we contact. The record keeping is two-fold: First, we want to try to keep from over-lapping making contact with the same people multiple times. Once we know where people live, or that they always walk in that particular neighborhood, then we'll not need to repeat that contact. We will not be harassing citizens. Secondly, by documenting those of the criminal element, we have a record of that contact and where/when it occurred. An example of where this will be helpful is if a crime (i.e. burglary, breaking or entering) is reported the next morning. We then have a list of "go-to" suspects to question regarding that incident or incidents.

Another issue that seems to be of concern is the mention of Street Crimes Unit officers carrying AR-15 rifles with them during these patrols. To give a little background information, several of our patrol officers already carry AR-15 rifles in their patrol vehicles. The AR-15 and police work is nothing new. Our Street Crimes Unit will not be wearing them constantly. That would be impractical. As we have stated in our meetings, our main purpose of mentioning this was to prepare our residents in the event that they saw an officer armed with one. When our officers deploy into areas where there is the potential for contacting several subjects in a high-crime area, that is when the potential deployment of AR-15's will occur.

Continues.

512 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:05:20am

re: #505 NJDhockeyfan

What an ass. This is in Virginia, the school has the same name as the school in Ct.

Man Arrested at Strasburg Sandy Hook Elementary School

They ought to turn that 2x4 into a Clue by 4 and crack him over the head with it.

513 blueraven  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:05:42am

re: #446 sattv4u2

re: #444 Killgore Trout

Should have been a combo of some tax cutting AND some debt paying at the same time

We were in two wars...no tax cuts should have been implemented in early 2000s. Never before in our history have we been at war and cut taxes at the same time. Just stupid.

514 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:06:17am

re: #488 b_sharp

Has Australia disappeared yet? It's Dec 21/2012 there already, so they should be a smouldering mass.

Well, if you're going by Mayan logic, the 13th baktun is more like Super New Year ritually, and in their numerology 13 is super lucky.

515 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:06:30am

re: #512 Dark_Falcon

They ought to turn that 2x4 into a Clue by 4 and crack him over the head with it.

What good would that to? Just keep him the hell away from a school. We don't need to be reduced to his level.

516 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:07:08am

re: #510 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Oh man, that made my day. Needed a laugh.

517 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:07:18am
518 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:07:37am

re: #517 Lidane

[Embedded content]

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!

519 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:07:52am

re: #510 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Most of the time trolling is bad, but not when the target is the WBC. They deserve trolling, lots of trolling.

520 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:08:08am

Paragould Police Department: Street Crimes Unit concerns blown out of proportion

PARAGOULD, Ark. (KTHV) - Paragould police said people are calling them Nazis after their idea to implement a Street Crimes Unit. They said the proposal has been blown out of proportion with accusations they're imposing on people's rights through martial law.

Last week Police Chief Todd Stovall announced the Street Crimes Unit would patrol on foot with protective gear and carrying AR-15 rifles.

Corporal Brad Snyder said the reason behind the unit is to increase police presence in the areas with the highest crime rates.

"I think a lot of people have the misconception that these guys are going to be walking, shoulder to shoulder, down the middle of the street with rifles in hand, and that is completely false," Synder explained.

Snyder said the sole purpose of the unit is to increase police presence and deter crime. The police chief's plan also said officers could randomly ask residents for identification.

The Paragould Daily Press previously reported that officers in the unit would be in SWAT gear and have AR-15s around their necks while on patrol.

Case closed.

521 jaunte  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:09:16am

re: #482 Gus

The product has netted Stevens and his partner $1.5 million in profits in just over a year. And he's far from the only one making a living off the coming collapse of civilization. Sites like Revolutionary Realty and Survival Realty list rugged properties with amenities such as a "defensible hillside location." There are no fewer than three prepper dating sites—Survivalist Singles ("Don't Face the Future Alone") boasts 4,000 members, mostly male.
[Link: www.motherjones.com...]

Lol.

522 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:09:18am

re: #511 Gus

The PD clarified...

12/16/2012
"Armed Patrol" Clarifications

I read the clarification and it does not really clarify the statements made by the chief of police except to say that they won't be carrying AR-15s all the time.

Officers will be working to identify residents in the affected area so that we can better serve our affected neighborhoods. Most often, this identification process will be nothing more than making contact with a subject, handing them a business card, and asking if they live in the area and if there's anything we can do for them.

Not reassuring at all. I don't see this still doesn't get into outright intimidation.

523 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:09:34am

re: #520 Gus

The bit about stopping people in the street, asking them for their ID and why they're there-- they can do that, but they can't then do anything to anyone who refuses to comply. It's a bad idea.

524 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:09:51am
525 Gus  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:10:20am

Oh brother. I am out of here.

526 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:11:07am

re: #499 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

NOW WITH MOAR EDITZ!

[Embedded content]

With the split screen I think you can get a better idea of who pushed the guy.

527 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:11:13am

re: #105 Romantic Heretic

With all due respect, DF, I don't find that the least surprising.

I'm probably more on the side of DF here. In this regard, I think we were raised similarly. I have learned that my emotions are not the average and that inanimate objects in and of themselves can pose a danger -with or without human volition. Unless, you include human emotion as a volition.

This is an area I have to trust the majority even tho I don't understand it.

As long as I have the Right to Self-Defense, I'm cool with banning certain types of firearms. Perhaps this is more because of my gender and my personal stance on reproductive rights and my sovereignty of person.

I honestly cannot see a situation where a semi-automatic weapon that I cannot physically operate is going to aid me in preventing rape or other bodily harm.

528 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:12:00am

WND Floats Armed Resistance to Obama Administration

Today in WND, Rush effectively suggested that people should begin an armed revolt against the government: “There are also Americans – some misguided, some ideologues – who work every day of the week in the cause of compromising our liberties,” Rush writes, “I suppose suggesting that we shoot them wouldn’t be taken very well – although that is precisely what it came down to 236 years ago.”

Rush, who hoped that a Romney administration would imprison liberals and journalists, like in the conspiracy video warns that the Obama administration is using the school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, to “divert attention from its own abject criminality,” crack down on gun ownership, do away with the Constitution and require “compulsory periodic assessments of citizens by government psychologists.”

529 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:12:12am

re: #523 Obdicut

The bit about stopping people in the street, asking them for their ID and why they're there-- they can do that, but they can't then do anything to anyone who refuses to comply. It's a bad idea.

Earlier statements made by the Chief indicated that refusal to answer questions or provide ID were grounds for arrest and being charged with interference.

The "clarification" does not touch that.

530 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:12:20am

I can't stay today, again. I'll try to catch-up later tonite.

Have a great afternoon all!

531 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:12:55am

And I'm fairly sure that this:

We will be asking for picture identification. We will be ascertaining where the subject lives and what they are doing in the area. We will be keeping a record of those we contact. The record keeping is two-fold: First, we want to try to keep from over-lapping making contact with the same people multiple times.

Does not pass constitutional muster either. It seems very similar to stuff that was rejected by judges from stop-and-frisk laws.

Increased police presence is great. So is cops introducing themselves to people-- that's a great idea, that helps to build connections between the cops and residents.

Asking people for their ID, where they live, etc? That's treating everyone like a suspect, and breaks down trust and communication between the PD and the citizens.

532 boredtechindenver  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:13:03am

re: #529 celticdragon

Earlier statements made by the Chief indicated that refusal to answer questions or provide ID were grounds for arrest and being charged with interference.

The "clarification" does not touch that.

Also, who are you going to believe, a corporal in the department, or his boss, the chief?

533 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:13:29am

re: #528 Kragar

WND Floats Armed Resistance to Obama Administration

Yay more armchair revolutionaries who think that they're the heirs of the people from the revolutionary period. Fucking morons.

534 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:13:38am

Suspect in custody in school threat

NORTHUMBERLAND — A suspect accused of making threats against Priestley Elementary School is now in custody.

All students are safe and the school district is working to lift its lockdown, said Point Township Police Chief Joshua Van Kirk shortly before 12:30 p.m.
The suspect is believed to have turned himself in, and his identity has not yet been officially confirmed.

Police officers had been seeking a man named Jeremy Church in connection to the incident, according to information broadcast over 911 communications, and were advised to arrest him immediately.

Van Kirk said the as-yet identified suspect made a telephone threat, saying he would kill his ex-girlfriend and afterward would go to Priestley Elementary and make last week’s shooting massacre in Newtown, Conn., “look like it was nothing,” the police chief said.

The was reported about 11:20 a.m., and police in Northumberland and Point Township called all available units in the area to assist.

Traffic had been restricted at the school and a police perimeter was set up around the facility.

Yikes!

535 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:13:59am

re: #513 blueraven

We were in two wars...no tax cuts should have been implemented in early 2000s. Never before in our history have we been at war and cut taxes at the same time. Just stupid.

The bill was passed before "we were in two wars"

536 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:14:05am

re: #533 HappyWarrior

Yay more armchair revolutionaries who think that they're the heirs of the people from the revolutionary period. Fucking morons.

Oh. My. God.

They really want to go there.

537 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:15:56am

re: #536 celticdragon

Oh. My. God.

They really want to go there.

No, they don't. They want others to do it for them so they can profit from it while sitting on their couch with a bag of popcorn naughtily rubbing themselves while watching it on TV.

538 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:16:48am

re: #536 celticdragon

Oh. My. God.

They really want to go there.

This is the part that amused me:
Rush, who hoped that a Romney administration would imprison liberals and journalists, like in the conspiracy video warns that the Obama administration is using the school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, to “divert attention from its own abject criminality,” crack down on gun ownership, do away with the Constitution and require “compulsory periodic assessments of citizens by government psychologists.”
You cry about an imaginary government take down of people's rights yet you advocate that liberals and journalists be imprisoned. Yeah buddy you're a real champion of freedom. Fucking jackass.

539 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:17:31am

re: #531 Obdicut

And I'm fairly sure that this:

Does not pass constitutional muster either. It seems very similar to stuff that was rejected by judges from stop-and-frisk laws.

Increased police presence is great. So is cops introducing themselves to people-- that's a great idea, that helps to build connections between the cops and residents.

Asking people for their ID, where they live, etc? That's treating everyone like a suspect, and breaks down trust and communication between the PD and the citizens.

That would by Ohio V Terry. Not sure if it runs foul of Terry (IANAL), but I know there are other long standing precedents on detaining without articulable suspicion.

540 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:17:56am

re: #537 Ghost of Tom Joad

No, they don't. They want others to do it for them so they can profit from it while sitting on their couch with a bag of popcorn naughtily rubbing themselves while watching it on TV.

Exactly. They're all talk. Just a bunch of losers who fantasize about beating up people to the left of them because it makes them feel better because the only thing they have going for them in their lives is their hatred of everything liberal.

541 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:18:23am

re: #535 sattv4u2

The bill was passed before "we were in two wars"

Incorrect.
2003 tax cut was passed May 23. We attacked Baghdad on March 20.

542 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:19:02am

re: #538 HappyWarrior

The freedom-pushers, same exact people as the god-botherers, with the only difference being their advertising to different target audiences.

543 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:19:16am

re: #536 celticdragon

Oh. My. God.

They really want to go there.

No they don't.

It's just like McArdle's idiocy where kids rush shooters to try and stop them. These armchair generals are perfectly willing to let other people die for their ideas, but if the shit ever hit the fan, they'd whine and cry like little children.

544 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:19:34am

re: #535 sattv4u2

The bill was passed an d enacted before "we were in two wars"

And a repeal should have been enacted the day the shooting started. That they didn't is fiscal incompetency at best.

545 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:19:36am

re: #538 HappyWarrior

Clearly we need to go over the "Whose rights actually matter" chart again. Once you understand that, there's really no need for discussion.

546 Mattand  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:19:39am

re: #539 celticdragon

That would by Ohio V Terry. Not sure if it runs foul of Terry (IANAL), but I know there are other long standing precedents on detaining without articulable suspicion.

I have a sneaking suspicion that at the end of the day in Paragould, most of the people harassed for ID will be African American.

547 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:19:48am

re: #541 Coracle

Incorrect.
2003 tax cut was passed May 23. We attacked Baghdad on March 20.

The Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 (Pub.L. 107-16, 115 Stat. 38, June 7, 2001), was a sweeping piece of tax legislation in the United States by President George W. Bush. It is commonly known by its abbreviation EGTRRA, often pronounced "egg-tra" or "egg-terra", and sometimes also known simply as the 2001 act (especially where the context of a discussion is clearly about taxes), but is more commonly referred to as one of the two "Bush tax cuts".
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

548 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:20:28am
549 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:20:36am

re: #544 William Barnett-Lewis

And a repeal should have been enacted the day the shooting started. That they didn't is fiscal incompetency at best.

Did any congressperson on either side of the aisle propose the elimination of it?

550 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:22:25am

I have absolutely no clue how the press listening to John of Orange's BS can keep a straight face.

551 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:22:45am

re: #533 HappyWarrior

Yay more armchair revolutionaries who think that they're the heirs of the people from the revolutionary period. Fucking morons.

And I've got hundreds of these dimwits in my area code.

(Nearest tornado passed 4-5 miles away.)

552 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:23:00am

re: #548 Lidane

[Embedded content]

So, this is all about Janet Jackson's tit during that halftime show, isn't it?

553 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:23:13am

re: #547 sattv4u2

You are still incorrect.

This is the timeline:
2001 cut.
9/11
Afghan War
2003 cut.
Iraq war.

Instead of ending the 2001 tax cuts to support a second war, we added to them. Brilliant.

(EDIT TO ADD) Stupid me posted this incorrectly. Iraq war started March. Tax Cut 2003 passed in may. I leave the post body unedited to mark my shame.

554 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:23:22am

re: #549 sattv4u2

Did any congressperson on either side of the aisle propose the elimination of it?

The fact that none of them did what was right excuses this stupid greed?

555 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:23:23am

re: #550 Targetpractice

I have absolutely no clue how the press listening to John of Orange's BS can keep a straight face.

Getting paid helps.

I'll sit there and listen to Sir John of Orange if the pay is high enough.

556 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:23:31am

re: #533 HappyWarrior

The comments at WND are ....well, how do you sum absolutely fucking deranged into one word??

557 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:24:27am

re: #555 Lidane

"It's hard to get a man to understand something when his paycheck requires him not to."

558 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:24:29am

re: #553 Coracle

You are still incorrect.

This is the timeline:
2001 cut.
9/11
Afghan War
2003 cut.
Iraq war.

Instead of ending the 2001 tax cuts to support a second war, we added to them. Brilliant.

So as I stated, the cut was before "we were in TWO wars"

559 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:24:45am

re: #540 HappyWarrior

Exactly. They're all talk. Just a bunch of losers who fantasize about beating up people to the left of them because it makes them feel better because the only thing they have going for them in their lives is their hatred of everything liberal.

Don't dismiss 'talk'. Dipshit losers under stress will talk each other into some really sick stuff.

560 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:24:46am

re: #556 celticdragon

The comments at WND are ....well, how do you sum absolutely fucking deranged into one word??

These days I just use "Republican." It usually gets the message across.

561 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:24:49am

re: #554 William Barnett-Lewis

The fact that none of them did what was right excuses this stupid greed?

I said that ,, where???

562 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:25:22am

re: #552 Ghost of Tom Joad

So, this is all about Janet Jackson's tit WARDROBE MALFUNTION during that halftime show, isn't it?

ftfy
//

563 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:25:31am

re: #559 Decatur Deb

Don't dismiss 'talk'. Dipshit losers under stress will talk each other into some really sick stuff.

True point. Most of them I feel are armchair wannabes though.

564 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:26:02am

re: #552 Ghost of Tom Joad

So, this is all about Janet Jackson's tit during that halftime show, isn't it?

Boobs are why people are shooting. Hey, it makes as much sense as blaming teachers unions and gays.

565 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:26:11am

re: #560 Four More Tears

These days I just use "Republican." It usually gets the message across.

Point taken.

I'm off to do a little Christmas shopping, and then I'm taking the other Ms Dragon out to see Skyfall tonight. Have a great day...and that means you too, Gus! :)

566 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:26:28am

re: #556 celticdragon

The comments at WND are ....well, how do you sum absolutely fucking deranged into one word??

They're so awful that I can only think they're just juveniles trying to out-batshit each other. Any segment of the population believing any of that nonsense is just too baffling and frightening to be true...then again...

567 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:26:33am

re: #543 Lidane

No they don't.

It's just like McArdle's idiocy where kids rush shooters to try and stop them. These armchair generals are perfectly willing to let other people die for their ideas, but if the shit ever hit the fan, they'd whine and cry like little children.

Almost all of them would. A few would go rent a Ryder truck.

568 celticdragon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:26:49am

re: #564 HappyWarrior

Boobs are why people are shooting. Hey, it makes as much sense as blaming teachers unions and gays.

I thought we supposed to blame evolution, John Stewart and teh gheyz.

569 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:27:34am

re: #558 sattv4u2

No. This time the error was mine. In my own list.

Corrected:
This is the timeline:
2001 cut.
9/11
Afghan War
Iraq war. (March)
2003 cut. (May)

570 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:27:35am

re: #546 Mattand

I have a sneaking suspicion that at the end of the day in Paragould, most of the people harassed for ID will be African American.

No, they'd just be following that common American movie stereotype of police walking the street (or a plainclothesman in a trench coat) just stopping passers-by and saying 'Your papers please.'

571 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:27:53am

re: #568 celticdragon

I thought we supposed to blame evolution, John Stewart and teh gheyz.

We're supposed to blame everyone but guns apparently. Was Jon Stewart really blamed? I've seen some people mention that. Don't know if it's just joking around or not.

572 kirkspencer  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:27:56am

re: #446 sattv4u2

re: #444 Killgore Trout

Should have been a combo of some tax cutting AND some debt paying at the same time

No.

The argument of Keynesians, for years, was spend extra in the tough times to keep things going, then pay off the debt when times are good.

The times were good and someone was finally doing the plan - paying it off - and some short-sighted people decided they wanted to eat their cake and have it for later too.

If you borrow to cover an emergency, you pay it off or you pay the consequences. And lo we pay the consequences of idiocy.

573 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:28:05am

re: #543 Lidane

No they don't.

It's just like McArdle's idiocy where kids rush shooters to try and stop them. These armchair generals are perfectly willing to let other people die for their ideas, but if the shit ever hit the fan, they'd whine and cry like little children.

When they aren't pushing retaliation fantasies they're conjuring up imagery of their "enemies" as feminine, weak, and irrational yet inhumanly violent. It's a full-service fantasy in which they get to be both dominating and righteous...and really really enjoy the suffering of others.

574 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:28:13am

Well, that was short and pointless. Boehner basically declaring what I said earlier, namely the GOP intends to pass his "Plan" and Obama will either sign it or they'll blame him for the tax increases. Ho-hum.

575 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:28:43am

re: #535 sattv4u2

The bill was passed before "we were in two wars"

Just so. And rolling it back after the war was thrust upon us would have been politically impossible.

576 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:29:11am

re: #562 sattv4u2

ftfy
//

Why are you trying to infringe on my Freedumb! with your liberal Political Correctness?!

A tits a tit.

577 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:29:41am

re: #575 Dark_Falcon

Just so. And rolling it back after the war was thrust upon us would have been politically impossible.

Except that's not how it happened.

578 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:29:45am

re: #575 Dark_Falcon

Just so. And rolling it back after the war was thrust upon us would have been politically impossible.

what about thrusting back after the war was rolled upon us?

579 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:29:54am

re: #569 Coracle

No. This time the error was mine. In my own list.

Corrected:
This is the timeline:
2001 cut.
9/11
Afghan War
Iraq war. (March)
2003 cut. (May)

The original point still was (is) that we were not in "two" wars when the 1st of the cuts was passed (we weren't even in one yet)

thats what I responded too

Please read what I post instead of just knee/jerk react "oh ,, Sat is posting , i must disagree"

580 lawhawk  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:30:42am

re: #558 sattv4u2

There are two major tax acts.

The 2001 EGTRRA and 2003 JGTRRA. The 2003 Act, which was enacted after the Iraq war started, modifies provisions of the 2001 Act, including expanding certain provisions, accelerating tax cuts, and other modifications.

It's correct to say that the 2001 cuts were enacted before the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but the 2003 tax act was enacted after both wars were underway. It was done with the belief that the economy would pick up and revenues would stabilize all while spending would accelerate due to the increased costs of fighting the wars and homeland security spending. That wasn't the case.

581 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:30:58am

re: #571 HappyWarrior

We're supposed to blame everyone but guns apparently. Was Jon Stewart really blamed? I've seen some people mention that. Don't know if it's just joking around or not.

I suddenly find my list the other day where I jokingly added Jim Carrey on the end not so funny given the list of actual forces blamed that was in the thread last night.

Sort of frightening actually with the realization that the culture and country I am living in has become that out of touch with reality, sense, and trying to treat others with dignity.

582 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:31:14am

re: #580 lawhawk

{sigh}

The original point still was (is) that we were not in "two" wars when the 1st of the cuts was passed (we weren't even in one yet)

583 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:32:28am

re: #579 sattv4u2

The original point still was (is) that we were not in "two" wars when the 1st of the cuts was passed (we weren't even in one yet)

thats what I responded too

Please read what I post instead of just knee/jerk react "oh ,, Sat is posting , i must disagree"

False.

You responded to a much more generic post (#513) about the "early 2000's" tax cuts, which I read as (and as is often referred to presently) the combination 2001+2003 "Bush tax cuts"

584 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:33:11am

re: #581 Feline Fearless Leader

I suddenly find my list the other day where I jokingly added Jim Carrey on the end not so funny given the list of actual forces blamed that was in the thread last night.

Sort of frightening actually with the realization that the culture and country I am living in has become that out of touch with reality, sense, and trying to treat others with dignity.

Well, I think Jim Carrey came up in jest because Bryan Fischer was blaming the 1962 USSC decision Engel Vs Vitale which banned forced prayer in public schools. Carrey was born that year. I totally feel ya though. It feels like a ogod chunk of the country's going nuts.

585 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:34:26am

re: #583 Coracle

False.

You responded to a much more generic post (#513) about the "early 2000's" tax cuts, which I read as (and as is often referred to presently) the combination 2001+2003 "Bush tax cuts"

WE WERE NOT IN TWO WARS AT THE TIME OF ONE OF THOSE CUT
WE WERE NOT EVEN IN ONE WAR

gggeezzz

GoalPost Mover For Hire

586 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:34:30am

re: #574 Targetpractice

Well, that was short and pointless. Boehner basically declaring what I said earlier, namely the GOP intends to pass his "Plan" and Obama will either sign it or they'll blame him for the tax increases. Ho-hum.

Ah, the "Look what you made me do!" defense.

Assholes.

587 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:34:30am

re: #578 Sol Berdinowitz

what about thrusting back after the war was rolled upon us?

Sort of the same thing after taking a big girl home after a night of drinking; if she rolls on you, chances of thrusting are 'nil.

(and I think I've gone too far as well as letting something personal slip out...)

588 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:35:37am

re: #584 HappyWarrior

Well, I think Jim Carrey came up in jest because Bryan Fischer was blaming the 1962 USSC decision Engel Vs Vitale which banned forced prayer in public schools. Carrey was born that year. I totally feel ya though. It feels like a ogod chunk of the country's going nuts.

Banning forced prayer is the same as banning God.

If we cannot enforce God's will upon stupid schoolchildren, how are they to grow into responsible citizens?

/

589 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:36:02am

re: #585 sattv4u2

WE WERE NOT IN TWO WARS AT THE TIME OF ONE OF THOSE CUT
WE WERE NOT EVEN IN ONE WAR

gggeezzz

GoalPost Mover For Hire

Your original post made no such distinction. The second of the Bush Tax Cuts was quite certainly passed while we were engaged in two wars.

590 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:36:33am

re: #588 Sol Berdinowitz

Banning forced prayer is the same as banning God.

If we cannot enforce God's will upon stupid schoolchildren, how are they to grow into responsible citizensdrones?

/

591 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:36:36am

{sigh}re: #589 Coracle

Your original post made no such distinction. The second of the Bush Tax Cuts was quite certainly passed while we were engaged in two wars.

Were there TWO WARS when the tax cutS were passed?

592 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:36:47am
I totally feel ya though. It feels like a ogod chunk of the country's going nuts.

I am glad more people are noticing. It's sad that it takes someone blowing huge holes in six year olds at close range to make people notice, but this raging delusion that grips America and the religion that demands the sacrifice of children must be stood up to sometime.

593 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:37:05am

re: #586 Feline Fearless Leader

Ah, the "Look what you made me do!" defense.

Assholes.

Pretty much. He started out by boasting about how the GOP plan to cut taxes for everybody under $1mil protects the tax rates of 99.81% of Americans, that his plan is better because "more people are covered." And he thinks that's him giving grounds on taxes.

594 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:37:24am

re: #528 Kragar

WND Floats Armed Resistance to Obama Administration

236 years ago we were fighting for freedom from rulers that were giving their business (corporate) friends special treatment over the citizens of these American colonies. Those friends with money that could get the special dispensation in legislation because of this close relationship with the ruling class (money). So we were getting reamed with no say in the matter (taxation without representation). We were under the specter of being rousted by the ruling elite any time day or night for no reason just under suspicion (illegal search and seizure). And many other misdeeds because some scumbag with money and contacts could pay someone to do it for them.

As for your armed resistance being talked about 236 years ago, who would be the colonies and who would be the ruling corporate elite in this day and age. Fucking dumbass.

595 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:37:41am

Staver: Supreme Court could spark Second Revolution and Civil War over Marriage Equality

According to Liberty Counsel head Mat Staver, if the Supreme Court rules in favor of marriage equality, America may head toward outright revolt and a second civil war. Staver told Janet Parshall that marriage equality will mean that the institution of marriage, freedom of speech and the freedom of religion will be “destroyed” and “bulldozed over.”

Like Family Research Council president Tony Perkins who last month maintained that the Supreme Court may start a “revolution” and “break this nation apart” by striking down gay marriage bans, Staver said that the court “could split the country right in two” as “this is the thing that revolutions literally are made of.”

“This would be more devastating to our freedom, to our religious freedom, to the rights of pastors and their duty to be able to speak and to Christians around the country, then anything that the revolutionaries during the American Revolution even dreamed of facing,” Staver said, “This could cause another civil war.”

If allowing consenting adults the freedom to marry other consenting adults and getting the same financial and property rights as other married citizens is enough for you to seriously consider waging a bloody civil war, then you seriously need to re-examine your fucking priorities.

596 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:38:00am

Think I'll go join Gus, wherever he may be!!!

597 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:38:27am

re: #591 sattv4u2

{sigh}

Were there TWO WARS when the tax cutS were passed?

Parsing plurals now? Both 2001 and 2003 were packages of cuts, yes. Would you like to parse "the" now?

598 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:39:06am
599 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:39:12am

re: #595 Kragar

Staver: Supreme Court could spark Second Revolution and Civil War over Marriage Equality

If allowing consenting adults the freedom to marry other consenting adults and getting the same financial and property rights as other married citizens is enough for you to seriously consider waging a bloody civil war, then you seriously need to re-examine your fucking priorities.

Abolishing slavery will mean that Black people will own White slaves!

600 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:39:29am

re: #595 Kragar

Staver: Supreme Court could spark Second Revolution and Civil War over Marriage Equality

If allowing consenting adults the freedom to marry other consenting adults and getting the same financial and property rights as other married citizens is enough for you to seriously consider waging a bloody civil war, then you seriously need to re-examine your fucking priorities.

They have. More guns first. Then resistance to equality for all citizens.
///

601 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:40:24am

re: #595 Kragar

Well, I give him credit for not bringing up WWII as a reference. Other than that....sounds like a real closet-case to me.

602 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:40:37am

re: #597 Coracle

"pasring"

heh

The original post stated "We were in two wars...no tax cuts should have been implemented in early 2000s."

At the time of one of those cuts were were in NO wars

603 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:41:08am

re: #595 Kragar

Staver: Supreme Court could spark Second Revolution and Civil War over Marriage Equality

I want these dipshits to explain to me how marriage equality is that much of a threat to the social order that a majority of Americans would go to war over it.

604 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:41:35am

Really if you want or think civil war or revolution should come over two consenting adults in love marrying each other. You're a fucking moron. Seriously leave the gays alone. Their marriage isn't hurting you and your family. Let them live in peace. And these idiots have the nerve to complain about "big government."

605 dragonfire1981  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:42:32am

Sigh...why do the armchair revolutionaries always think that the atheists/liberals/progressives/whoever won't shoot back?

Imagine if you will an army of Tea Party people trying to take over San Francisco...do you really think they'd have a chance?

606 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:43:00am

re: #603 Lidane

I want these dipshits to explain to me how marriage equality is that much of a threat to the social order that a majority of Americans would go to war over it.

Here you go.

Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.
H. L. Mencken

607 dragonfire1981  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:43:05am

re: #604 HappyWarrior

Really if you want or think civil war or revolution should come over two consenting adults in love marrying each other. You're a fucking moron. Seriously leave the gays alone. Their marriage isn't hurting you and your family. Let them live in peace. And these idiots have the nerve to complain about "big government."

BIG government = BAD
BIG Christian Government = GOOD!

608 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:43:21am

re: #603 Lidane

I want these dipshits to explain to me how marriage equality is that much of a threat to the social order that a majority of Americans would go to war over it.

Dominionism: America owes its exceptional status in the world because it enjoyed the Lord's blessing. It enjoys that blessing because we reflect (their view of) His Divine Law in our own nation's laws.

As soon as we start passing laws that conflict with (their opinion of ) God's Divine Law, we will lose His blessing and our priveleged position in the world.

To them, that is worth fighing for.

609 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:43:33am

re: #603 Lidane

I want these dipshits to explain to me how marriage equality is that much of a threat to the social order that a majority of Americans would go to war over it.

If I had to guess, I'd say they're becoming convinced, especially after this year, that the "activist judges" are going to strike down gay marriage bans. And when that happens, in their minds, it'll be "proof" that their last means of influencing the direction of the country will be lost to them and feel the only alternative is going to war to drive the "liberals" out.

610 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:43:39am

re: #603 Lidane

I want these dipshits to explain to me how marriage equality is that much of a threat to the social order that a majority of Americans would go to war over it.

Majorities don't start revolutions. Most colonial Americans just wanted to get the crops in while keeping the lobsterbacks and Washington's radicals off their backs.

611 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:43:47am

re: #604 HappyWarrior

Really if you want or think civil war or revolution should come over two consenting adults in love marrying each other. You're a fucking moron. Seriously leave the gays alone. Their marriage isn't hurting you and your family. Let them live in peace. And these idiots have the nerve to complain about "big government."

We cannot regulate the oil or banking industry, but we absolutely must regulate the sexual activity of adults or God's invisible forcefield wont be effective anymore.

612 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:44:08am

re: #605 dragonfire1981

Sigh...why do the armchair revolutionaries always think that the atheists/liberals/progressives/whoever won't shoot back?

Imagine if you will an army of Tea Party people trying to take over San Francisco...do you really think they'd have a chance?

Because they think we're all a bunch of wusses who are incapable of defending ourselves and our friends and family? It's the product of dehumanization propaganda thanks to assholes like Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc who have been telling them that atheists/liberals/progressives are this.

613 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:44:10am

re: #605 dragonfire1981

Sigh...why do the armchair revolutionaries always think that the atheists/liberals/progressives/whoever won't shoot back?

Imagine if you will an army of Tea Party people trying to take over San Francisco...do you really think they'd have a chance?

I can just see it now -- the armchair scooter 176th cavalry charge.

614 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:46:02am

re: #602 sattv4u2

"pasring"

heh

The original post stated "We were in two wars...no tax cuts should have been implemented in early 2000s."

At the time of one of those cuts were were in NO wars

And after the start of the second, instead of backing off of the first tax cut, we implemented another. You make the case against you.

The argument you were responding to was that no tax cuts should have been passed when we were in two wars. Tax cuts were passed when we were in two wars. The fact you chose to argue about tax cuts that were not under discussion (i.e.the 2001 tax cuts that took place before two wars, rather than the 2003 tax cuts that took place during two wars) was your logical failing.

615 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:46:06am

re: #611 Kragar

We cannot regulate the oil or banking industry, but we absolutely must regulate the sexual activity of adults or God's invisible forcefield wont be effective anymore.

Yeah I don't fucking get it. I don't get it. Makes me feel like I'm going insane. This isn't mere disagreement. This is insanity. How can you complain about big government when you want to use the same government to tell a couple in love that they shouldn't have the same rights in love under the law because it offends your religious sensitivities. I understand not wanting to force churches to marry people but they won't. The idea that they will be forced is nothing but lies.

616 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:46:33am

re: #612 HappyWarrior

Because they think we're all a bunch of wusses who are incapable of defending ourselves and our friends and family? It's the product of dehumanization propaganda thanks to assholes like Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc who have been telling them that atheists/liberals/progressives are this.

They honestly believe their own hype that all liberals are pacifists.

617 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:47:15am

re: #616 Kragar

They honestly believe their own hype that all liberals are pacifists.

and shop at the organic food market :).

618 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:47:47am

re: #616 Kragar

They honestly believe their own hype that all liberals are pacifists.

I'll happily be on the less-armed side that has all of the smart people.

619 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:48:13am

re: #615 HappyWarrior

Anyone who doesn't believe in homosexual marriage should do their best to make sure they don't marry anyone who is the same sex as them and leave other people to make their own decisions.

620 Targetpractice  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:49:35am

re: #616 Kragar

They honestly believe their own hype that all liberals are pacifists.

Think it's more the opposite, that they think that liberals are fascists in jackboots and that they're an armed "resistance." That after the Civil War and more recent events like Ruby Ridge and Waco, they've learned that they can't actively fight against the government, else they'll just get branded terrorists and put down. But by instead goading the government into trying to force them to obey, they can claim to be the ones under duress and convince folks their cause is "noble." Hence all the talk recently about secession being "divorce" and how Obama should allow the states to leave the Union "peacefully."

621 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:49:38am
Sigh...why do the armchair revolutionaries always think that the atheists/liberals/progressives/whoever won't shoot back?

No matter who does it or whoever you imagine the bad guys to be, this fantasising about gun battles between ordinary citizens is the root problem in this disgraceful religion of Guns Americans have. And it simply has to stop.

622 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:49:39am

re: #618 Ghost of Tom Joad

I'll happily be on the less-armed side that has all of the smart people.

Well yeah, its easier to win wars when you can out-think the enemy.

623 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:49:45am

re: #608 Sol Berdinowitz

Dominionism: America owes its exceptional status in the world because it enjoyed the Lord's blessing. It enjoys that blessing because we reflect (their view of) His Divine Law in our own nation's laws.

As soon as we start passing laws that conflic with (their opinion of ) God's Divine Law, we will lose His blessing and our priveleged position in the world.

To them, that is worth fighing for.

Or convince their followers to go die for. I don't expect any of the talking head leaders to be the ones on the barricades. If anything they will be in the back rooms putting together the lists of who get guillotined if they win. And sharpening the knives to take out whatever group they select to be the scapegoat next.

In alliance with the corporate interests that will continue bankrolling this in exchange for the same sort of favoritism mentioned previously. Too many corporate heads deciding to that both "I have mine, to hell with you." and "Who cares what the company/country/world looks like in 30 years." is the best applicable strategy.

624 Jolo5309  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:49:48am

re: #347 I Am Kreniigh!

Fox News asks Santa if the ‘War on Christmas’ is real

It is a sad indictment of our culture that we no longer honor this holiest of days, when Santa Claus was born.

There isn't, Wal-Mart won the war.

625 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:50:56am

re: #620 Targetpractice

Think it's more the opposite, that they think that fascists in jackboots and that they're an armed "resistance." That after the Civil War and more recent events like Ruby Ridge and Waco, they've learned that they can't actively fight against the government, else they'll just get branded terrorists and put down. But by instead goading the government into trying to force them to obey, they can claim to be the ones under duress and convince folks their cause is "noble." Hence all the talk recently about secession being "divorce" and how Obama should allow the states to leave the Union "peacefully."

Pacifist Jack booted thugs who can be driven back by brandishing a gun in one hand and a bible in the other.

626 jaunte  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:51:36am

Was it wrong to cut taxes while we were involved in a War on Drugs and a War on Christmas?

627 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:51:57am

re: #605 dragonfire1981

Sigh...why do the armchair revolutionaries always think that the atheists/liberals/progressives/whoever won't shoot back?

Imagine if you will an army of Tea Party people trying to take over San Francisco...do you really think they'd have a chance?

Who needs the liberals to shoot back? The police will be more than enough.

”From the oligarchy’s perspective, the people were thoroughly neutralized by the false sense of political empowerment that guns gave them. Guns don’t work in this country — they didn’t work for the Black Panthers or the Whiskey Rebellion, and they won’t work for you or me either.” Mark Ames,

628 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:52:32am

re: #626 jaunte

Was it wrong to cut taxes while we were involved in a War on Drugs and a War on Christmas?

Holy shit. *4* Wars!

629 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:52:36am

re: #621 Renaissance_Man

No matter who does it or whoever you imagine the bad guys to be, this fantasising about gun battles between ordinary citizens is the root problem in this disgraceful religion of Guns Americans have. And it simply has to stop.

This. I remember a brother of a friend saying that he thought it would be cool if there was another Civil War. I kindly reminded him that more Americans died in the Civil War than any other of our wars combined. Plus the country was destroyed. Romanticizing for war I think as a whole is stupid but romanticizing for Civil War is almost evil I'd say. I think civil war is one of the worst tragedies that can happen to a nation. Not just in the war's course but long after the last bullets are fired and the last soldiers die. I mean look at us. It's been nearly sixty years since the last Civil War veteran died and there are still many who are convinced that the CSA's cause was just.

630 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:52:53am

re: #616 Kragar

They honestly believe their own hype that all liberals are pacifists.

Hmm, isn't the "1 of us is worth 10 of them" thing usually a sign of someone lining up to bite off more than they can chew?

(Or a sign of not understanding binary, I can never keep it straight.)
O_o

631 Decatur Deb  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:52:56am

re: #624 Jolo5309

There isn't, Wal-Mart won the war.

The nuns always told us that the war was real, and being waged by the people who hire Santa Clauses by the platoon.

632 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:53:37am

re: #614 Coracle

And after the start of the second, instead of backing off of the first tax cut, we implemented another. You make the case against you.

How so? Where did i ever say that I thought the second was a good idea (or for that matter, after the 1st war started, keeping the 1st going?)
as a matter of fact i asked if there was any congressperson calling for it's repeal

The argument you were responding to was that no tax cuts should have been passed when we were in two wars

No. The "argument ((I ))was responding to" was simply stating that we were NOT in "two wars" at the time

The fact you chose to argue about tax cuts that were not under discussion (i.e.the 2001 tax cuts that took place before two wars, rather than the 2003 tax cuts that took place during two wars) was your logical failing.

The poster stated "We were in two wars...no tax cuts should have been implemented in early 2000s.

The 1st cut of the "early 2000"s" happened before ONE war, let alone TWO

633 Lidane  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:55:45am

*headdesk*

God: Totally willing to send angels to help you book a vacation, but fuck you if you're in a godless public school filled with union thug teachers.

I swear, these people are the best argument for atheism out there.

634 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:55:50am

re: #631 Decatur Deb

The nuns always told us that the war was real, and being waged by the people who hire Santa Clauses by the platoon.

When the war comes, which side is the 123rd Santa Claus Battalion on?

635 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:57:19am

re: #633 Lidane

*headdesk*

[Embedded content]

God: Totally willing to send angels to help you book a vacation, but fuck you if you're in a godless public school filled with union thug teachers.

I swear, these people are the best argument for atheism out there.

Heh lady just because the guy from Hotels.com's name was Gabriel doesn't mean he was an angel. But yeah, this is one of the reasons why I'm becoming more of a skeptic. You think God helps you prepare for a vacation but won't intervene when people are being shot? Come on man.

636 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:57:24am

re: #633 Lidane

*headdesk*

[Embedded content]

God: Totally willing to send angels to help you book a vacation, but fuck you if you're in a godless public school filled with union thug teachers.

I swear, these people are the best argument for atheism out there.

Wow, that is almost as pathetic a miracle as Rick Joyner's bottomless casserole dish.

637 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:57:59am

re: #623 Feline Fearless Leader

In alliance with the corporate interests that will continue bankrolling this in exchange for the same sort of favoritism mentioned previously. Too many corporate heads deciding to that both "I have mine, to hell with you." and "Who cares what the company/country/world looks like in 30 years." is the best applicable strategy.

Cynical, manipulating bastards find idiots who really believe the ideology that aids the manipulators. The bastards behind it just provide the funding.

638 HappyWarrior  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:58:13am

Praise Jesus. I got good plane seats.

639 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:59:24am

re: #638 HappyWarrior

Praise Jesus. I got good plane seats.

He rakes Mitt Romney's leaves too.

640 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 10:59:32am

re: #634 Feline Fearless Leader

When the war comes, which side is the 123rd Santa Claus Battalion on?

north side, I would imagine!

641 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:00:01am

re: #639 Feline Fearless Leader

He rakes Mitt Romney's leaves too.

The Holy Virgin Mother onced fixed my air conditioner.

642 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:00:04am

re: #630 Feline Fearless Leader

Hmm, isn't the "1 of us is worth 10 of them" thing usually a sign of someone lining up to bite off more than they can chew?

(Or a sign of not understanding binary, I can never keep it straight.)
O_o

Lemme see...the Confederacy, Imperial Japan, Napoleon's troops going into Russia, Hitler's troops going into Russia...yeah, odds are if you're relying on that trope you're probably about to get your ass handed to you.

With the exception of the Inverse Ninja Law.

643 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:00:06am

re: #638 HappyWarrior

Praise Jesus. I got good plane seats.

I don't mind paying the extra 15-25 bucks to be in a single (or even low teen) numbered row

644 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:00:54am

re: #632 sattv4u2

The 1st cut of the "early 2000"s happened before ONE war, let alone TWO

And the second of the "early 2000's" happened after two had started.

Looking back at your response to Blueraven, you said:

The bill was passed before "we were in two wars"

After the statement, subsequent posts make clear you must have meant only the 2001 tax cuts (though why you'd ignore 2003, which absolutely fit blueraven's description and are absolutely a component of the "Bush Tax Cuts" is a mystery).

645 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:01:57am

I once cured a ham, does that count as a miracle?

646 jaunte  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:02:35am

re: #645 Kragar

Tricky gnosis.

647 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:02:44am

re: #644 Coracle

And the second of the "early 2000's" happened after two had started.

Looking back at your response to Blueraven, you said:

After the statement, subsequent posts make clear you must have meant only the 2001 tax cuts (though why you'd ignore 2003, which absolutely fit blueraven's description and are absolutely a component of the "Bush Tax Cuts") is a mystery.

I gues for the same reason that you ignore that the 1st cut happened before ANY war, let alone TWO!

648 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:02:54am

{sigh}

649 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:04:00am

re: #644 Coracle

re: #647 sattv4u2

I gues for the same reason that you ignore that the 1st cut happened before ANY war, let alone TWO!

Oh ,,wait ,, I know why

As stated ,,, "It's Sat,,,My Knee Just Jerked,, I must disagree"!!!

650 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:04:41am

Seriously, who gives a flying fuck when what was passed. Get a room and give it up already before I start slapping both of you in my mind.

Guys aren't married, are you?

651 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:05:06am

re: #642 The Ghost of a Flea

Lemme see...the Confederacy, Imperial Japan, Napoleon's troops going into Russia, Hitler's troops going into Russia...yeah, odds are if you're relying on that trope you're probably about to get your ass handed to you.

With the exception of the Inverse Ninja Law.

Pretty much. Read history and you see a whole bunch of regimes or cultures get totally deluded about the odds and what they are being "forced" into doing. Then they jump in anyways and eventually get their asses kicked. Unfortunately it also often includes a lot of people getting killed and property being destroyed for reality to be accepted.

652 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:05:46am

re: #650 Ghost of Tom Joad

Seriously, who gives a flying fuck when what was passed. Get a room and give it up already before I start slapping both of you in my mind.

Guys aren't married, are you?

yes, but not to each other! (as far as I know ,, and nttawwt!!)

653 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:06:56am

re: #649 sattv4u2

Oh ,,wait ,, I know why

As stated ,,, "It's Sat,,,My Knee Just Jerked,, I must disagree"!!!

Your persecution complex is showing.

re: #647 sattv4u2

I gues for the same reason that you ignore that the 1st cut happened before ANY war, let alone TWO!

The 2001 cuts are irrelevant to blueraven's statement.

"They really should never have fed Christians to the lions."
"They _didn't_ before 0 A.D."

654 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:07:23am

re: #645 Kragar

I once cured a ham, does that count as a miracle?

Only if it got up and walked away...

655 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:09:09am

re: #650 Ghost of Tom Joad

Seriously, who gives a flying fuck when what was passed. Get a room and give it up already before I start slapping both of you in my mind.

Guys aren't married, are you?

Actually they allow it now in my state. But, sorry, satt. I'm taken.

656 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:09:38am

re: #654 Sol Berdinowitz

Only if it got up and walked away...

Always with the technicalities.

657 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:10:12am

re: #653 Coracle

The 2001 cuts are irrelevant to blueraven's statement

Then perhaps he shouldn't have stated ".no tax cuts should have been implemented in early 2000s." because I'm fairly certain anyone would consider Summer of 2001 as being in THE EARLY 2000's!!!

658 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:11:46am

re: #656 Kragar

Always with the technicalities.

Always with the negative waves Moriarity, always with the negative waves.

659 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:11:55am

re: #655 Coracle

Actually they allow it now in my state. But, sorry, satt. I'm taken.

away? did they use a large butterfly net?

/

660 Kragar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:13:08am

re: #658 Feline Fearless Leader

Always with the negative waves Moriarity, always with the negative waves.

I thought of that as soon as I posted it. I'm going to watch that next week when I'm off work.

661 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:15:37am

re: #660 Kragar

I thought of that as soon as I posted it. I'm going to watch that next week when I'm off work.

TCM was doing military movies that included Christmas in them the other night. _Battleground_ and _The Fighting 69th_ were on at least. The latter featuring James Cagney in full-on weasel mode.

662 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:15:39am

re: #657 sattv4u2


The 2001 cuts are irrelevant to blueraven's statement

Then perhaps he shouldn't have stated ".no tax cuts should have been implemented in early 2000s." because I'm fairly certain anyone would consider Summer of 2001 as being in THE EARLY 2000's!!!

Satt, this is getting a little ridiculous, don't you think? It really is basic logical parsing - or set theory. Summer 2003 is also early 2000's.

Blueraven never said that two wars were happening throughout the early 2000's, but rather made a general statement opinion that no tax cuts should have taken place in the early 2000's when we were in two wars. The facts of the matter are that:
We were in two wars in the early 2000's (though not every minut of them).
Tax cuts were passed in the early 2000's (2001 and 2003 are the specific examples)
There were tax cuts passed when we were engaged in two wars in the early 2000's. (The union of those two sets: the 2003 tax cuts).

663 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:19:36am

Y'know I'm not angry or anything. And, frankly, this isn't the most important argument in the world. I just like logic.

664 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:20:49am

re: #662 Coracle

Summer 2003 is also early 2000's

I said it wasn't ,, where??

Blueraven never said that two wars were happening throughout the early 2000's

never said he did. HOWEVER (and again) A tax cut 'in the early 2000's was passed before ANY wars

Tax cuts were passed in the early 2000's (2001 and 2003 are the specific examples)
Again as stated, there were no war(s) at the time of the bolded year

665 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:21:51am

re: #663 Coracle

Y'know I'm not angry or anything. And, frankly, this isn't the most important argument in the world. I just like logic.

And I just like clarity

Hence, there was no wars during A tax cut in the early 2000's

666 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:21:56am

re: #591 sattv4u2

{sigh}

Were there TWO WARS when the tax cutS were passed?

When the first tax cut was made you were in no wars.
When the second tax cut was made you were in two wars.

Everything else is just semantics.

You are both right, or if you are a glass half empty kind of guy, you are both wrong.

667 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:23:01am

re: #666 b_sharp

When the first tax cut was made you were in no wars.
When the second tax cut was made you were in two wars.

Everything else is just semantics.

You are both right, or if you are a glass half empty kind of guy, you are both wrong.

my glass is always full

Sometimes some (if not all) of whats in it is air, but it's always full

668 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:24:27am

re: #667 sattv4u2

my glass is always full

Sometimes some of whats in it is air, but it's always full

If your glass is half-empty, the physicists duck.

669 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:26:39am

re: #667 sattv4u2

my glass is always full

Sometimes some (if not all) of whats in it is air, but it's always full

BUT YOU'RE ..

Sorry, my finger got stuck up my ass.

But, you're always wrong. And you're always right.
You confuse the shit out of me.

670 Jolo5309  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:28:19am

re: #668 Feline Fearless Leader

If your glass is half-empty, the physicists duck.

What is the name of the duck?

671 sattv4u2  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:30:34am

re: #669 b_sharp

BUT YOU'RE ..

Sorry, my finger got stuck up my ass.

But, you're always wrong. And you're always right.
You confuse the shit out of me.

How do you think I feel

i'm with me 24/7!!!

672 Coracle  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 11:31:14am

re: #665 sattv4u2

And I just like clarity

Hence, there was no wars during A tax cut in the early 2000's

I never disputed that.

1) No tax cuts should have been passed when we were in two wars in the early 2000's (blueraven's statement).
2) Taxes were cut when we were in two wars in the early 2000's (a historical fact).
3) Taxes were cut before we were in two wars in the early 2000's (a historical fact irrelevant to statement 1).

673 EPR-radar  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 2:48:03pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

And that has nothing to do with the subject of this article. This wasn't about a social contract, or even about guns: It was about a man who thought he had the right to control someone else.

As for the woman's emotional reactions to firearms, I do not understand said reactions and cannot relate to them at all.

Late hit on the thread, but this bugged me for reasons other than simple insensitivity, and it took me a while to get my thoughts sorted out.

To turn this around, many people have an intense emotional attachment to the ideal of minimal to non-existent gun control. Deep needs are apparently being met. I don't understand any of this, and cannot personally relate to it.

So, by all means let's take the emotional arguments out of the debate, both for and against gun control. If all we have are numbers/facts, there appears to be no counter to the statistics for gun murder, gun suicide, and gun accidents that come with gun ownership. Statistically speaking, gun ownership is an invitation to death, which is accepted from time to time.

That would appear to be checkmate if the rules are "no appeals to emotion", since the home defense and related arguments appear to have no objective support, and are thus essentially appeals to emotion.

Of course, these Spock-like rules for engagement are unrealistic, since the most powerful arguments for/against various policy positions are often appeals to emotion.

674 wheat-dogghazi  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 9:05:08pm

re: #397 Lidane

I like this lady. She needs a TV show or a radio program.

675 po8crg  Fri, Dec 21, 2012 4:20:48am

re: #11 Romantic Heretic

Also, my wife won't vote because of him. You have to register to vote and that information is publicly available. So abusers can and do use voter registration to track down ex-spouses.

In Britain, we passed a law fairly recently to deal with that. People with a legitimate fear (witness protection, a restraining order, special forces, secret service, and anyone that convince the police that they need it) appear on the public register as "other electors in this district: 2" and there is no other information on them; the elections officer has a (secret) document that lists names and addresses, and mails out ballots for these people to vote by mail.

It works pretty well for the people that find out about it. Might be worth contacting your state representative and suggesting they propose a similar law; it's not the sort of thing that should be any sort of partisan issue (battered women probably vote Democrat; SEALs are probably Republicans)


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