LGF Poll: 9/11 Terror Trials in New York
US News • Views: 4,480
1441 comments
5 |
wiffersnapper Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:01:41pm |
Wonder what the line on this poll will be. Ron Paul by 5000?
| 6 |
Cathypop Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:01:48pm |
re: #4 Cannadian Club Akbar
This isn't a good idea. Sorry.
It's a very BAD idea. WTF are they thinking or are they even using their brains?
| 8 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:02:57pm |
re: #6 Cathypop
It's a very BAD idea. WTF are they thinking or are they even using their brains?
Smells like a Bush hunt...
| 9 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:03:22pm |
Let them leave Gitmo by swimming with a couple fish in their pockets.
| 10 |
Cathypop Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:03:22pm |
| 12 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:03:31pm |
I'm going to sit on the fence with "unsure". If they can make this work then more power to them.
| 13 |
dugmartsch Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:03:54pm |
It's outrageously outrageous. The outrage i'm feeling about this outrage is only superseded by the outrage I feel towards people who don't feel outraged.
| 14 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:04:38pm |
re: #13 dugmartsch
It's outrageously outrageous. The outrage i'm feeling about this outrage is only superseded by the outrage I feel towards people who don't feel outraged.
So, that's a no?
/
| 15 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:04:40pm |
| 16 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:05:10pm |
re: #8 brookly red
Smells like a Bush hunt...
Exactly, and if any of them walk that will be the excuse. Of course Bush had no intentions of them ever getting tried in civilian court.
| 17 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:05:16pm |
re: #13 dugmartsch
It's outrageously outrageous. The outrage i'm feeling about this outrage is only superseded by the outrage I feel towards people who don't feel outraged.
Dang, man. I'd give you a month's worth of dings if I could.
| 19 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:05:32pm |
LGF will get to the bottom of this outrage...that thread was a doozie in the old fashioned way
| 21 |
ArchangelMichael Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:05:47pm |
| 22 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:05:49pm |
re: #10 Cathypop
Why?
well aside from everything being Bush's fault, the entier discovery phase will be an attack on his policies.
| 23 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:06:01pm |
re: #9 Cannadian Club Akbar
Let them leave Gitmo by swimming with a couple fish in their pockets.
Hey that's not fair to the fish! Just pour some chum and them pitch them off of a boat. Then they can feed the fish.
| 25 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:06:45pm |
re: #9 Cannadian Club Akbar
Let them leave Gitmo by swimming with a couple fish in their pockets.
Why so mean to teh sea kittehs?
| 26 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:06:56pm |
| 27 |
Cathypop Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:07:03pm |
re: #23 Dark_Falcon
Hey that's not fair to the fish! Just pour some chum and them pitch them off of a boat. Then they can feed the fish.
We can give them swimming lessons first just to be fair.
| 28 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:07:22pm |
Arrrgh, I have a problem with the wording!
I don't agree with the decision to have different tiers of prosecution, but IF we are to have a Criminal Trial for KSM I support it being in NYC.
Also, I agree with KSM having a criminal trial.
I'm going to select 'yes' but that shouldn't be construed as an endorsement of the Obama Admin's overall actions w/r/t the trials. I have many criticisms of this but they're from the left.
| 29 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:07:27pm |
| 30 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:07:29pm |
A wiki article notes, "All U.S. Presidents have contended that the Bill of Rights does not apply to noncitizen combatants." Well, that statement might have to be revised...
| 31 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:07:30pm |
re: #15 MandyManners
Is that what you kids are calli oh, fergitit.
grandma always said, a dirty mind is a gift forever ; )
| 32 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:07:32pm |
| 33 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:08:07pm |
re: #31 brookly red
grandma always said, a dirty mind is a gift forever ; )
Keeps one amused in one's dotage.
| 34 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:08:09pm |
we should send the defendants little courtesy packages...I'm thinking chewy pork rinds and some old Madonna vids
| 35 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:08:09pm |
Not to worry, Fearless Leader has assured us that "when even if found innocent they won't be released in the U.S". What a relief that must be to the 9-11 families.
| 36 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:08:33pm |
re: #30 J.S.
A wiki article notes, "All U.S. Presidents have contended that the Bill of Rights does not apply to noncitizen combatants." Well, that statement might have to be revised...
He did say he was not like any of the other Presidents.
| 38 |
Digital Display Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:09:16pm |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
I'm going to sit on the fence with "unsure". If they can make this work then more power to them.
I'm not a lawyer.. But I think even my small town lawyer could tie this case in knots...Well at least I can sleep at night knowing blood thirsty Terrorists from the Middle East have the same rights in a court room as me.. Just wait till OBL is tried here...I predict now.. Most convictions will be for Conspiracy charges...
They can't prove anything else and everybody fucking knows it..
I want to see a national poll...
| 39 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:09:27pm |
re: #22 brookly red
well aside from everything being Bush's fault, the entier discovery phase will be an attack on his policies.
that's the point...BO is gonna use this trial to enhance himself at GWBs expense...a set up for 2012
| 40 |
Cathypop Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:09:51pm |
re: #34 albusteve
we should send the defendants little courtesy packages...I'm thinking chewy pork rinds and some old Madonna vids
Pork rinds okay but Madonna vids is going too far. EGADS!
| 41 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:10:46pm |
re: #35 The Shadow Do
Not to worry, Fearless Leader has assured us that "
wheneven if found innocent they won't be released in the U.S". What a relief that must be to the 9-11 families.
which in fact compromises the whole thing...unbelievable...guilty before charged?
| 42 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:10:48pm |
re: #35 The Shadow Do
Not to worry, Fearless Leader has assured us that "
wheneven if found innocent they won't be released in the U.S". What a relief that must be to the 9-11 families.
I am self-editing a comment that might be construed to advocate violence.
It had to do with the families being given advance notice and ammunition. Not that I would actually say anything like that, no, not me.
| 43 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:10:50pm |
I voted no. These attacks were a military operation in planning and execution and therefore should be handled as a military matter.
Dorsia
| 44 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:10:56pm |
re: #39 albusteve
that's the point...BO is gonna use this trial to enhance himself at GWBs expense...a set up for 2012
Unless the 17% unemployed/underemployed get work 2012 will not be a good year for President Obama.
| 45 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:11:19pm |
re: #39 albusteve
that's the point...BO is gonna use this trial to enhance himself at GWBs expense...a set up for 2012
I think it's not gonna go down that way...
| 46 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:11:46pm |
I vote 'yes' although I can't actually vote for technical reasons (iceweasel beat me to the vote and she's on the same IP)
| 47 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:12:17pm |
Let them be found not guilty. Let them be free in the streets of NYC.
| 48 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:13:10pm |
I would have also voted yes if Obama had decided to try KSM in a military tribunal. The important thing is that the fucker is going down.
| 49 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:13:51pm |
and A.G. Moonbat's comment that "we should not be afraid" of trying these chaps in criminal court so misses the mark that I cannot even find humor in it.
| 50 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:14:07pm |
re: #46 Jimmah
I vote 'yes' although I can't actually vote for technical reasons (iceweasel beat me to the vote and she's on the same IP)
Why do you vote that way, Jimmah?
| 51 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:14:20pm |
| 52 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:14:22pm |
re: #48 Surabaya Stew
I would have also voted yes if Obama had decided to try KSM in a military tribunal. The important thing is that the fucker is going down.
and KSM will get his too
| 53 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:14:38pm |
re: #48 Surabaya Stew
I would have also voted yes if Obama had decided to try KSM in a military tribunal. The important thing is that the fucker is going down.
Hopefully he gets put down in some fashion that will leave him dirty in the eyes of Allah, thus not able to be made a martyr.
| 54 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:15:17pm |
re: #47 Cannadian Club Akbar
The Attorney General has already assured everyone that any freed, alleged terrorists in New York would immediately be detained by Federal officials...after all, Obama has never given up the use of indefinite detainment (without charges).
| 56 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:15:52pm |
re: #53 soxfan4life
Hopefully he gets put down in some fashion that will leave him dirty in the eyes of Allah, thus not able to be made a martyr.
I had previously suggested frying KSM in bacon on the White House lawn, does that qualify? :-D
| 57 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:16:30pm |
re: #48 Surabaya Stew
I would have also voted yes if Obama had decided to try KSM in a military tribunal. The important thing is that the fucker is going down.
That's not a good enough thing if US intel gets compromised in the process and the defense will try to make that happen. Given the overwhelming nature of the evidence and KSM status as an unlawful combatant, I myself simply favor summary execution without trial.
| 59 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:17:26pm |
| 60 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:18:01pm |
re: #46 Jimmah
I vote 'yes' although I can't actually vote for technical reasons (iceweasel beat me to the vote and she's on the same IP)
I thought all you libs knew how to vote for everything more than once.
Sorry couldn't resist.
| 62 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:18:33pm |
re: #56 Surabaya Stew
I had previously suggested frying KSM in bacon on the White House lawn, does that qualify? :-D
As long as it is slow
| 63 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:18:57pm |
re: #53 soxfan4life
Hopefully he gets put down in some fashion that will leave him dirty in the eyes of Allah, thus not able to be made a martyr.
Nice to dream about, but not a good idea in real life. Offending Muslims gratuitously is not something we should do.
| 64 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:19:11pm |
re: #60 soxfan4life
I thought all you libs knew how to vote for everything more than once.
Sorry couldn't resist.
Ding. Also, if you wipe out the cookie, you can vote again. Am I right, computer geeks?
| 65 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:19:29pm |
re: #57 Dark_Falcon
That's not a good enough thing if US intel gets compromised in the process and the defense will try to make that happen. Given the overwhelming nature of the evidence and KSM status as an unlawful combatant, I myself simply favor summary execution without trial.
Speaking of which who will his defense be? Who would take upon such a job? And as much as I'd like to agree with your idea re: executing the bastard, I'll defer to our legal system to do the job. Messily, but honestly.
| 66 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:19:59pm |
re: #64 Cannadian Club Akbar
Ding. Also, if you wipe out the cookie, you can vote again. Am I right, computer geeks?
ACORN!!!1!
| 67 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:20:03pm |
| 68 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:20:22pm |
re: #60 soxfan4life
I thought all you libs knew how to vote for everything more than once.
Sorry couldn't resist.
They live in Scotland, not Chicago.
/I couldn't resist either.
| 69 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:20:29pm |
Another really strange twist is all this -- and I don't get it -- the ones who were most like Soldiers for Allah (that is militaristic, the ones who planned the attacks, etc.) -- they're given civilian trials...Meanwhile, some who sound (from the wiki bios) like civilians (the ones who provided money (?) or the finances) -- well, they get the military tribunals...I don't get it...
| 70 |
Digital Display Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:21:08pm |
re: #52 brookly red
and KSM will get his too
Maybe not..KSM will get the best lawyers money can buy...Remember OJ.. They had DNA evidence that nailed him.. He went to go play golf in Florida.
What evidence that won't be thrown out exists? No DNA..No miranda rights..
This case won't happen in NYC...change of venue instantly...
I am stunned by the shortsightness of Justice...
If they walk or get a light sentence..It will be the end of Obama...
2-3 years of daily news stories of this trial.. You are toast Obama
| 71 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:21:32pm |
Anyone who voted yes should be feel absolutely ashamed of themselves.
| 73 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:23:23pm |
re: #47 Cannadian Club Akbar
Let them be found not guilty. Let them be free in the streets of NYC.
No.
Let them have justice meted out to them; let them have every dignity and right accorded to them which they denied to their victims; let them be justly convicted under that very system of laws they hoped to subvert; let them be fairly and humanely convicted, with dignity, mere blocks from the scenes of inhumanity and horror they themselves staged--
Let them understand that they cannot take our laws or our values from us--only we can do that to ourselves.
Let them be convicted, and they will know what justice is in a country where people do not storm jails and tear people apart in the streets.
Let them be convicted, and let that conviction, and the place where it will be rendered, be a monument to our justice system, to the essential principles our country was founded on, to truths which are self-evident and eternal.
| 74 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:23:38pm |
re: #56 Surabaya Stew
I had previously suggested frying KSM in bacon on the White House lawn, does that qualify? :-D
That is a waste of bacon grease for my potato soup. Aw, fuck it, I'll make tomato bisque.
| 75 |
Only The Lurker Knows Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:24:05pm |
| 76 |
tokyobk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:24:16pm |
I am against this as it will be a match of wits between American lawyers and administrations when it should be a simple case of Good smashing Evil quickly and with every tool short of becoming evil itself. I.e. a military tribunal that presumes guilt and serves to protect its citizenry and not a civil trial which has to preserve rights in specific and the Constitution in general.
OT but in happier news
I never much cared for the Sapporo Beer found in the States which is actually a Canadian beer in a Sapporo can, I suppose a similar formula but not really the same taste.
Recently, however, I have found their Sapporo Premium, brewed also in Guelph, Ontario that is quite flavorful and much closer to the Nipponese version.
| 77 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:24:37pm |
I voted Yes.
Someone in the other thread suggested another site for the trial which would inject monies into a, maybe, struggling area.
I can see that, but also would like the monies to go to the areas that were hit the hardest.
| 78 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:24:59pm |
re: #74 Cannadian Club Akbar
That is a waste of bacon grease for my potato soup. Aw, fuck it, I'll make tomato bisque.
Thanks for reminding me, its time for dinner!
BBL
| 79 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:25:28pm |
It will cost at least $75 million to prosecute Mohammed and his four alleged accomplices in New York federal court, Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., said. Schumer said the estimate was provided by New York City police Commissioner Ray Kelly.
Added security will require sniper teams, hazardous materials units, upgraded protection for bridges and other landmarks."I worry about safety first and the burden on the taxpayers of New York," Schumer said. Holder said he would support efforts to obtain federal aid to defray those costs. "America was attacked on Sept. 11. New York should not bear the burden."
Relatives of Sept. 11 victims turned out in force Wednesday to oppose Holder's decision.
$75 million taxpayer dollars now committed by A.G. Moonbat to the cause. Makes me feel all patriotic and such.
| 80 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:25:57pm |
re: #68 Dark_Falcon
They live in Scotland, not Chicago.
/I couldn't resist either.
Hey, I have dual residences! for now...
We're getting married in the US. :)
| 81 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:26:00pm |
re: #50 Dark_Falcon
Why do you vote that way, Jimmah?
Federal prosecutions have a good record, and will help repair America's image in the world at large. And I can't think of a more appropriate place for the trial to take place than NYC, where most of the victims were killed.
| 82 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:26:06pm |
re: #71 TheMatrix31
Anyone who voted yes should be feel absolutely ashamed of themselves.
I feel so ashamed about expressing my "yes" opinion.
/
| 83 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:26:51pm |
re: #73 iceweasel
No.
Let them have justice meted out to them; let them have every dignity and right accorded to them which they denied to their victims; let them be justly convicted under that very system of laws they hoped to subvert; let them be fairly and humanely convicted, with dignity, mere blocks from the scenes of inhumanity and horror they themselves staged--Let them understand that they cannot take our laws or our values from us--only we can do that to ourselves.
Let them be convicted, and they will know what justice is in a country where people do not storm jails and tear people apart in the streets.
Let them be convicted, and let that conviction, and the place where it will be rendered, be a monument to our justice system, to the essential principles our country was founded on, to truths which are self-evident and eternal.
all that wonderful stuff, they can have through a tribunal...why bring them to NYC?
| 84 |
ArchangelMichael Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:26:58pm |
re: #81 Jimmah
Federal prosecutions have a good record, and will help repair America's image in the world at large. And I can't think of a more appropriate place for the trial to take place than NYC, where most of the victims were killed.
Because our "image" is the most important thing...
/
| 85 |
Digital Display Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:27:15pm |
re: #73 iceweasel
No.
Let them have justice meted out to them; let them have every dignity and right accorded to them which they denied to their victims; let them be justly convicted under that very system of laws they hoped to subvert; let them be fairly and humanely convicted, with dignity, mere blocks from the scenes of inhumanity and horror they themselves staged--Let them understand that they cannot take our laws or our values from us--only we can do that to ourselves.
Let them be convicted, and they will know what justice is in a country where people do not storm jails and tear people apart in the streets.
Let them be convicted, and let that conviction, and the place where it will be rendered, be a monument to our justice system, to the essential principles our country was founded on, to truths which are self-evident and eternal.
Oh fuck ice-dub..My small town lawyer could blow this case to hell and back.. He will have the best lawyers money can buy...This will drag on for years and really there is no admissable evidence without miranda..
It's 50-50 at this point any justice will be served
| 88 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:28:22pm |
re: #81 Jimmah
Fuck our image around the world. Only pretentious whores give a damn about their f'n image. THIS IS ABOUT THE MAN WHO PLANNED THE MASS MURDER OF 3000 AMERICANS.
IMAGE DOES-NOT-MATTER!
Jeez.
| 89 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:28:26pm |
re: #84 ArchangelMichael
Because our "image" is the most important thing...
/
I didn't say it was the most important thing.
| 90 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:28:39pm |
re: #81 Jimmah
Federal prosecutions have a good record, and will help repair America's image in the world at large. And I can't think of a more appropriate place for the trial to take place than NYC, where most of the victims were killed.
America does need an image redo...that's just BO kool aid and BDS...if you don't know that you are lost
| 91 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:28:51pm |
re: #81 Jimmah
Federal prosecutions have a good record, and will help repair America's image in the world at large. And I can't think of a more appropriate place for the trial to take place than NYC, where most of the victims were killed.
Most Americans don't give a shit about "repairing America's image in the world at large."
| 92 |
hickph Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:29:53pm |
What happened to the home of the brave? We will convict this maggot and never hear from him again. The GOP flip-flopping in all of this is ridiculous. We tried Moussaoui in New York and sent him away. Sen. Sessions said it was proper to do so back then and so did Giuliani. Were a Republican proposing this, everyone on the right would be lining up behind it. Honestly, why the defeatist attitude?
As for cost? Freedom isn't free, brother. What happened to bear any burden and pay any price?
We have a judicial system that separates us from tyrannical rule and has served as a model for the rest of the world. KSM will have justice rendered unto him and get what he deserves. He is not a villain with super powers. He is what he is: A murdering thug with no respect for human life. No more. No less. Try him. Convict him and move on.
| 93 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:30:01pm |
The Book of War is quite clear about civilian authorities involvement in war... we read it, they read it too.
| 94 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:30:58pm |
Heh. Poor Matrix31 is off on another downding spree.
| 95 |
ArchangelMichael Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:30:59pm |
re: #89 Jimmah
I didn't say it was the most important thing.
If I had a dime for every time someone on the expressed concern about what other people think of us (our "image" abroad), rather than what is a good idea/bad idea, right/wrong, correct/incorrect, moral/immoral, legal/illegal, etc.. I could retire and live off the interest.
| 96 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:31:07pm |
re: #92 hickph
They weren't picked up in this country.
| 97 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:31:27pm |
re: #85 HoosierHoops
Oh fuck ice-dub..My small town lawyer could blow this case to hell and back.. He will have the best lawyers money can buy...This will drag on for years and really there is no admissable evidence without miranda..
It's 50-50 at this point any justice will be served
that is complete B.S. -- basically you don't know what evidence they have because it hasn't been publicized.
What we do know is the Eric Holder is a pretty smart lawyer, has access to the evidence, and has done his homework enough to know that the simple issues (like tossing out evidence because of Miranda violations) will NOT be an issue.
Life is not like a Law & Order episode.
| 99 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:32:21pm |
all this image bullshit is for sobbing liberals who ignore Americas track record...it's exactly the same with the corrupt HRC...terrorists become victims...you people are utterly laughable...America has nothing to prove to you or the rest of the world...Jimmah is concerned about Americas image...give me a break you sissy...are you an American?...peddle your wrist wringing wares elsewhere...you don't count amigo
| 100 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:33:20pm |
I got yer image right here...
| 101 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:33:42pm |
re: #99 albusteve
There I go on my downding spree with your spot. Oh wait, I guess I clicked the upding for yours accidently.
| 102 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:34:05pm |
re: #94 Jimmah
Heh. Poor Matrix31 is off on another downding spree.
You're not stingy with the downdings yourself.
| 103 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:34:18pm |
re: #85 HoosierHoops
Oh fuck ice-dub..My small town lawyer could blow this case to hell and back..
No, Hoops. I've been following this for a while. The truth is, if there were ANY chance of KSM getting off, this trial wouldn't be happening---not even in a military tribunal.
Don't forget that Obama is still creating a so-called 'fifth class' of detentions for the detainees (possibly as many as 75) who can't be charged anywhere and can't be released. They'll be held forever, but moved to Bagram or the like.
If KSM could get off he'd be in that group, for sure. KSM is going to trial because there is enough evidence to convict him and execute him even without touching the evidence extracted under torture.
We're having the one big trial to hide all the other trials we won't be having--and that's because they know going in that they can get KSM.
| 104 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:34:37pm |
Image shmimage. The ME "street" that the left pays so attention to will be alive with candy giving regardless of outcome of this pending theatre of the absurd production. Martyr or manipulator of stupid Americans, KSM and crew cannot lose.
| 105 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:34:40pm |
re: #79 The Shadow Do
$75 million taxpayer dollars now committed by A.G. Moonbat to the cause. Makes me feel all patriotic and such.
I'm suprised Daley didn't lobby for the trial to be in Chicago.
| 106 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:35:06pm |
Mary Surratt and Lewis Payne were tortured, but they were convicted and hanged anyway.
| 107 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:35:06pm |
re: #88 TheMatrix31
Fuck our image around the world. Only pretentious whores give a damn about their f'n image. THIS IS ABOUT THE MAN WHO PLANNED THE MASS MURDER OF 3000 AMERICANS.
IMAGE DOES-NOT-MATTER!
Jeez.
Sorry to break it to you, but image does matter, although as I have already stressed, it is not the most important issue. It matters because as everyone knows whether they care to admit it or not, America's ability to work effectively against terrorism does depend in part on the goodwill that exists towards it from other countries. It also depends on the confidence of its own people that their country is doing the right thing in the right way. Both of these were damaged under the Bush administration.
| 108 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:35:15pm |
re: #94 Jimmah
Heh. Poor Matrix31 is off on another downding spree.
well he/she posts and is entitled... unlike some lurking slime that will remain unmentioned.
| 109 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:35:17pm |
re: #97 keithgabryelski
that is complete B.S. -- basically you don't know what evidence they have because it hasn't been publicized.
What we do know is the Eric Holder is a pretty smart lawyer, has access to the evidence, and has done his homework enough to know that the simple issues (like tossing out evidence because of Miranda violations) will NOT be an issue.
Life is not like a Law & Order episode.
Did Holder make this decision or did Obama? The answer matters, regardless of who is justifying it.
| 110 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:35:19pm |
| 111 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:35:19pm |
re: #94 Jimmah
Heh. Poor Matrix31 is off on another downding spree.
Jeepers jimmah, didn't you snap back when I groused about your downding spree downstairs?
Pot meet Kettle.
| 112 |
Digital Display Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:35:28pm |
re: #97 keithgabryelski
that is complete B.S. -- basically you don't know what evidence they have because it hasn't been publicized.
What we do know is the Eric Holder is a pretty smart lawyer, has access to the evidence, and has done his homework enough to know that the simple issues (like tossing out evidence because of Miranda violations) will NOT be an issue.
Life is not like a Law & Order episode.
No it isn't.. Read the Wall street journal.. 6 points..I'll give you a one..
There weren't read their rights.. Take all that evidence and throw it out the window.. Now what do you got? IT"S THE FUCKING LAW!
now what's ya got? Continue to the next 5 points?
| 113 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:36:26pm |
re: #103 iceweasel
There is one reason to be afraid of this trial.
I seriously think that someone is going to take a shot at Obama, and I think this is going to be what provokes it. It's really hitting on a big streak of fear.
I wonder, seriously, if Obama has thought of that, or if it's just not possible to think about things like that and function as president?
| 114 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:36:27pm |
re: #103 iceweasel
No, Hoops. I've been following this for a while. The truth is, if there were ANY chance of KSM getting off, this trial wouldn't be happening---not even in a military tribunal.
Don't forget that Obama is still creating a so-called 'fifth class' of detentions for the detainees (possibly as many as 75) who can't be charged anywhere and can't be released. They'll be held forever, but moved to Bagram or the like.
If KSM could get off he'd be in that group, for sure. KSM is going to trial because there is enough evidence to convict him and execute him even without touching the evidence extracted under torture.
We're having the one big trial to hide all the other trials we won't be having--and that's because they know going in that they can get KSM.
why should this trial be held in NYC rather than Gitmo?...we all know about the rest, that's pretty obvious by now
| 115 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:36:47pm |
re: #102 Alouette
You're not stingy with the downdings yourself.
True. But I don't downding out of petty spite, which is what I am getting from Matrix31.
| 116 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:37:05pm |
re: #109 Naso Tang
Did Holder make this decision or did Obama? The answer matters, regardless of who is justifying it.
Do you make big decisions with out the bosses buy in? Just asking...
| 117 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:37:08pm |
re: #107 Jimmah
Khalid Sheik Mohammed and the rest of the sewer-born shit-infested scum do NOT deserve ANY American goodwill. NONE WHATSOEVER.
| 118 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:37:15pm |
re: #105 ggt
I'm suprised Daley didn't lobby for the trial to be in Chicago.
ha!...good one...money talks in the Windy City eh?
| 119 |
ArchangelMichael Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:37:17pm |
re: #92 hickph
Moussaoui was arrested in the United States by Law Enforcement officers, not by the US Military in a combat zone of a foreign nation. Drop the "afraid of trying him here" crap, that's not the issue.
| 120 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:37:17pm |
re: #104 The Shadow Do
It'll be al-Jazeerah's dream come true...(another way to fire up their base).
| 121 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:37:29pm |
What's the probability that NYPD, FDNY and all their relatives will be summarily excused from the jury.
| 122 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:37:39pm |
re: #88 TheMatrix31
Fuck our image around the world. Only pretentious whores give a damn about their f'n image. THIS IS ABOUT THE MAN WHO PLANNED THE MASS MURDER OF 3000 AMERICANS.
IMAGE DOES-NOT-MATTER!
Jeez.
Yes, it does. Image always matters. I agree with you on the trial, and I'm far more concerned with security and certainty than image. That said, following the route you and I wish to follow would have notable PR consequences, and it is not foolish to point that out.
| 123 |
recusancy Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:37:43pm |
1) Military tribunals would have reporters just the same as in civil court.
2) This trial will not have camera's in the courtroom - the same as a military tribunal.
| 124 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:37:56pm |
[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]
| 125 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:38:06pm |
re: #113 Obdicut
There is one reason to be afraid of this trial.
I seriously think that someone is going to take a shot at Obama, and I think this is going to be what provokes it. It's really hitting on a big streak of fear.
I wonder, seriously, if Obama has thought of that, or if it's just not possible to think about things like that and function as president?
The only reason you are afraid of the trial is because some-one will shoot at President Obama? What kind of paranoid nonsense is this?
| 126 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:38:15pm |
re: #115 Jimmah
Yeah bullshit on that. You and iceweasel downding damn near every one of my posts.
| 127 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:38:40pm |
re: #109 Naso Tang
Did Holder make this decision or did Obama? The answer matters, regardless of who is justifying it.
I'm not sure Obama makes any decisions. I think he is a one-headed Zaphod Beeblebrox.
| 128 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:38:51pm |
re: #95 ArchangelMichael
If I had a dime for every time someone on the expressed concern about what other people think of us (our "image" abroad), rather than what is a good idea/bad idea, right/wrong, correct/incorrect, moral/immoral, legal/illegal, etc.. I could retire and live off the interest.
I said it was the right thing to do AND it would help America's image. Big difference.
| 129 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:39:01pm |
re: #113 Obdicut
There is one reason to be afraid of this trial.
I seriously think that someone is going to take a shot at Obama, and I think this is going to be what provokes it. It's really hitting on a big streak of fear.
I wonder, seriously, if Obama has thought of that, or if it's just not possible to think about things like that and function as president?
I think the President and his family have a good appreciation of his chances of surviving two terms. That's why calling him a "coward" really ticks me off.
| 130 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:39:05pm |
re: #108 brookly red
well he/she posts and is entitled... unlike some lurking slime that will remain unmentioned.
and you know who you are...
| 131 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:39:09pm |
re: #107 Jimmah
Sorry to break it to you, but image does matter, although as I have already stressed, it is not the most important issue. It matters because as everyone knows whether they care to admit it or not, America's ability to work effectively against terrorism does depend in part on the goodwill that exists towards it from other countries. It also depends on the confidence of its own people that their country is doing the right thing in the right way. Both of these were damaged under the Bush administration.
oh bullshit...you are way behind the curve with that BDS stuff...image matters to whom?...people that want to kill us and their liberal enablers...post again you comic you
| 132 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:39:21pm |
re: #99 albusteve
all this image bullshit is for sobbing liberals who ignore Americas track record...it's exactly the same with the corrupt HRC...terrorists become victims...you people are utterly laughable...America has nothing to prove to you or the rest of the world...Jimmah is concerned about Americas image...give me a break you sissy...are you an American?...peddle your wrist wringing wares elsewhere...you don't count amigo
This is utter crap.
If it comes down to image vs. our basic beliefs, we go with basic beliefs. When it comes down to image AND our basic beliefs -- lets stick with it.
This has everything to do justice. Justice given our values -- not justice metered out in their value system.
We are the leaders of the free world and other countries take our lead -- I'd rather fledgling democracies (as well as older ones) see our finest hours shine, instead of the cheap arguments against using our constitution in one situation or another.
THIS is a shining moment for America, for democracy, and for the rule of law.
| 133 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:39:44pm |
re: #118 albusteve
ha!...good one...money talks in the Windy City eh?
In one way or another, we all pay tribute to the Big Dick.
| 134 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:40:00pm |
re: #125 Bagua
It is paranoia. I have no rational reason to believe this will spark such a thing rather than something else.
I don't think it will be good for the nation, at all, if someone takes a shot at Obama. I think it would be very bad for us.
| 135 |
Digital Display Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:40:40pm |
re: #115 Jimmah
True. But I don't downding out of petty spite, which is what I am getting from Matrix31.
I want to be fair here.. I don't downding anyone...well a few in my day.. But to be Fair..Bush didn't do shit for years.. If I was POTUS these guys would be toast years ago and I would have moved Heaven and Earth to do it..
The GOP is not blameless in this...And Bush cannot hide behind Gitmo for 8 years...Political capital my ass after 2004..Nothing..just nothing
| 136 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:41:07pm |
re: #109 Naso Tang
Did Holder make this decision or did Obama? The answer matters, regardless of who is justifying it.
It is Holder's decision -- it would be illegal for President Obama to sway this decision, right?
| 137 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:41:12pm |
re: #132 keithgabryelski
That's all fucking dandy---if Khalid Sheik Mohammed was a citizen of the United States and not an enemy combatant who murdered 3,000 of them.
| 138 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:41:14pm |
re: #122 Dark_Falcon
Yes, it does. Image always matters. I agree with you on the trial, and I'm far more concerned with security and certainty than image. That said, following the route you and I wish to follow would have notable PR consequences, and it is not foolish to point that out.
well do your nails and get some face time...image?...what image are you even talking about?...this shit is not about images, it's about justice
| 139 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:41:33pm |
re: #103 iceweasel
We're having the one big trial to hide all the other trials we won't be having--and that's because they know going in that they can get KSM.
We already have KSM.
What you mean is that they can get him as if he was a common criminal, which sets a precedent of sorts, doesn't it?
Seems to me our legal system is heavily based on precedents, and I'm no lawyer.
Fasten your seat belts and keep the puke bags handy.
| 140 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:41:34pm |
re: #126 TheMatrix31
Yeah bullshit on that. You and iceweasel downding damn near every one of my posts.
Bollocks. Speaking for myself, I downding many (but by no means all) of your posts that happen to be stupid, ignorant or just angry. Unfortunately, that seems to be rather a lot of them. But I don't serially downding every post a person makes just because I am pissed off with them the way you have been doing here.
| 141 |
RightOnTheLeftCoast Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:41:58pm |
re: #92 hickph
What happened to the home of the brave? We will convict this maggot and never hear from him again. The GOP flip-flopping in all of this is ridiculous. We tried Moussaoui in New York and sent him away. Sen. Sessions said it was proper to do so back then and so did Giuliani. Were a Republican proposing this, everyone on the right would be lining up behind it. Honestly, why the defeatist attitude?
As for cost? Freedom isn't free, brother. What happened to bear any burden and pay any price?
We have a judicial system that separates us from tyrannical rule and has served as a model for the rest of the world. KSM will have justice rendered unto him and get what he deserves. He is not a villain with super powers. He is what he is: A murdering thug with no respect for human life. No more. No less. Try him. Convict him and move on.
The Moussaoui case is totally irrelevant to KSM's...
Moussaoui was arrested in the US, and therefore a standard civilian court indictment/trial was appropriate.
KSM was captured in a foreign country, essentially "on the battlefield", and was the military planner of the 9/11 attack on a US city. There is no precedent, NONE, for such an individual to be tried in civilian court in the US, with all the rights that such a trial entails.
As for those who would question the legitimacy of the military commission trial he was slated for? The Nuremburg trials are universally (well, perhaps except to a handful of Nazis, neo-Nazis, and their sympathizers...) considered legitimate, and those were tribunals, quite comparable to the military court/commission that was set to proceed had Emperor Barack not stopped them in their tracks and chosen this idiotic route instead.
| 143 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:43:05pm |
re: #123 recusancy
1) Military tribunals would have reporters just the same as in civil court.
2) This trial will not have camera's in the courtroom - the same as a military tribunal.
The difference is a Broadway production vs. off, off, off Broadway theatre. The venue matters. Say hello to celebrity judges and lawyers who will be the center of news for who knows how long. OJ redux?
| 144 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:43:05pm |
re: #127 ggt
I'm not sure Obama makes any decisions. I think he is a one-headed Zaphod Beeblebrox.
I updinged you not because it was a so so joke but because someone else takes themselves far too seriously.
| 145 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:43:19pm |
re: #132 keithgabryelski
Where convictions are guaranteed prior to the trial? Where, in the event of a mistrial or a verdict of not guilty, the accused is nonetheless detained? held in custody? That's an "achievement" for justice?
| 146 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:43:26pm |
re: #132 keithgabryelski
THIS is a shining moment for America, for democracy, and for the rule of law.
What drugs are you on? If the rule of law were followed, these guys would NOT have POW status.
We've tortured the Geneva Conventions over this issue, why not add in the Constitution?
The terrorists are not criminals to be tried in civilian courts. They are waging war against this country and our way of life--and should be left to the military --let them do with them whatever they see fit.
| 147 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:43:26pm |
re: #113 Obdicut
There is one reason to be afraid of this trial.
I seriously think that someone is going to take a shot at Obama, and I think this is going to be what provokes it. It's really hitting on a big streak of fear.
I wonder, seriously, if Obama has thought of that, or if it's just not possible to think about things like that and function as president?
I think it will too. And I think he just can't think about that. He's had a four-fold increase in death threats over the last POTUS. He had to get USSS protection earlier than any candidate ever-- and recruitment in white supremacist groups and racist groups exploded last year.
IIRC Michelle Obama raised the issue of assassination years ago, when people were first talking to Obama about political office.
I think the situation is highly volatile and I worry. I don't know what the spark will be, but I fear we'll see a serious attempt.
| 148 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:43:37pm |
re: #140 Jimmah
I guess I find most of your posts stupid, ignorant, or angry as well.
| 149 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:43:42pm |
re: #132 keithgabryelski
This is utter crap.
If it comes down to image vs. our basic beliefs, we go with basic beliefs. When it comes down to image AND our basic beliefs -- lets stick with it.
This has everything to do justice. Justice given our values -- not justice metered out in their value system.
We are the leaders of the free world and other countries take our lead -- I'd rather fledgling democracies (as well as older ones) see our finest hours shine, instead of the cheap arguments against using our constitution in one situation or another.
THIS is a shining moment for America, for democracy, and for the rule of law.
a shining moment?...hope and change?...I want to puke...basic beliefs?...gimme a break...you want to put on a show for people that hate your guts...AmIdol Syndrome
| 150 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:44:17pm |
re: #131 albusteve
oh bullshit...you are way behind the curve with that BDS stuff...image matters to whom?...people that want to kill us and their liberal enablers...post again you comic you
Good grief! I am talking about countries that America needs to cooperate with in it's anti-terrorist efforts. Or do you see everyone outside the US as an enemy that want's to kill you?
| 151 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:44:39pm |
re: #136 keithgabryelski
It is Holder's decision -- it would be illegal for President Obama to sway this decision, right?
What? Was it illegal for Bush to invent Gitmo or was that Holders predecessor?
| 152 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:45:09pm |
re: #115 Jimmah
True. But I don't downding out of petty spite, which is what I am getting from Matrix31.
You may feel emotional as Matrix31 if some terrorists attacked your country and you saw your countrymen jumping to their death out of windows.
And don't cast stones when people downding you, at least half my downdings are you and your partner and I rarely downding you and rarely complain. You of all posters should not feel offended when dinged.
| 153 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:45:14pm |
re: #112 HoosierHoops
No it isn't.. Read the Wall street journal.. 6 points..I'll give you a one..
There weren't read their rights.. Take all that evidence and throw it out the window.. Now what do you got? IT"S THE FUCKING LAW!
now what's ya got? Continue to the next 5 points?
except you can still have evidence without having them Miranda.
For instance:
Fred shoots Tom witnessed by George.
Fred is arrested, not Mirandised -- beaten by cops until he confesses.
Goes to court -- the the confession is inadmissible, Georges testimony is admissible.
Fred goes to jail.
| 154 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:45:34pm |
re: #126 TheMatrix31
Yeah bullshit on that. You and iceweasel downding damn near every one of my posts.
Not true, Matrix. You get worked up and then get pissy, seriously.
I wish you'd calm down because I think I remember having good conversations with you, but you're been really angry for a while and not much into talking politely, I thought.
| 155 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:47:07pm |
re: #147 iceweasel
I think it will too. And I think he just can't think about that. He's had a four-fold increase in death threats over the last POTUS. He had to get USSS protection earlier than any candidate ever-- and recruitment in white supremacist groups and racist groups exploded last year.
IIRC Michelle Obama raised the issue of assassination years ago, when people were first talking to Obama about political office.
I think the situation is highly volatile and I worry. I don't know what the spark will be, but I fear we'll see a serious attempt.
why don't you answer my question?...are you afraid?...why should these trials be held in NYC as opposed to tribunals set up at Gitmo?...that is the question
| 156 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:47:32pm |
re: #137 TheMatrix31
That's all fucking dandy---if Khalid Sheik Mohammed was a citizen of the United States and not an enemy combatant who murdered 3,000 of them.
You misunderstand our constitution, then. It affords non-citizens rights in our legal system.
This is correct thing to do -- justice will be served.
| 157 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:47:33pm |
re: #150 Jimmah
So in order to bolster our image with countries joining us in anti-terror efforts, we should the right thing by giving one of the worst terrorists in world history full protection under the law of the very land that he and his pond scum associates have vowed over and over to destroy, even though he has no entitlement to such protection?
**shakes his fucking head**
| 158 |
checked08 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:48:26pm |
Lurking slime here. Voted unsure. While it's probable that there will be grand standing, it isn't likely. Just glad KSM and co. are finally going to get whats been coming to them.
/not piling on Pres. Obama
| 159 |
recusancy Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:48:27pm |
Would be interesting to get Charles's take on all of this.
| 160 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:48:40pm |
re: #138 albusteve
well do your nails and get some face time...image?...what image are you even talking about?...this shit is not about images, it's about justice
Justice is indeed the more important consideration (though I rank security above even that), but image is not irrelevant, that's all I'm saying.
| 161 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:48:45pm |
re: #156 keithgabryelski
If they're captured on US soil.
| 162 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:49:20pm |
re: #152 Bagua
You may feel emotional as Matrix31 if some terrorists attacked your country and you saw your countrymen jumping to their death out of windows.
Downdinged purely because you don't know Jimmah's connection to 9/11, if any, and because something like 300 of the 9-11 victims were foreign nationals, 1/3 (i think) of whom came from the UK and it's fucked up to presume anyone has a special claim on 9-11 compared to anyone else a priori.
| 163 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:49:40pm |
re: #154 iceweasel
I guess I'm just so wee-wee'd up. Must be because I'm just some butthurt wingnut conservative whacko who clings to his guns and religion. Oh well.
| 164 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:49:54pm |
re: #156 keithgabryelski
You misunderstand our constitution, then. It affords non-citizens rights in our legal system.
This is correct thing to do -- justice will be served.
WHERE DOES it afford non-citizens rights in our legal system? Are you referring to the status of "US Persons"?
WE the people means US Citizens and US Persons under the law IIRC. Only civilians on US soil are guaranteed rights. NOT combatants in war in another country.
| 165 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:50:08pm |
re: #150 Jimmah
Good grief! I am talking about countries that America needs to cooperate with in it's anti-terrorist efforts. Or do you see everyone outside the US as an enemy that want's to kill you?
all that is already established...the lines are drawn in Pakistan and Afghanistan...they already know about our image than they deserve thanks to pacifist handwringers, leakers and enablers...you people will eventually lose the WOT and I believe that's the ultimate goal here...we are no better than them, right
| 166 |
Digital Display Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:50:42pm |
God I love these threads.. You can't buy more passion...
My blood pressure is 300/600 and have enjoyed reading all your view even if I passionately disagree with all my heart...
I haven't downdinged anyone.. Icedub..jimmy..Kieth..
Your opinions are appreciated...God I love America
| 167 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:50:44pm |
re: #148 TheMatrix31
I guess I find most of your posts stupid, ignorant, or angry as well.
Nope - you serially downding people you are unhappy about. Up until I called you on it, you downdinged every single post of mine on this thread, including simple, irrefutable statements of fact such as:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Nice try.
| 168 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:50:53pm |
re: #165 albusteve
Dude, accusing other people of wanting to lose the terror is way, way out of line.
| 169 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:50:55pm |
re: #157 TheMatrix31
So in order to bolster our image with countries joining us in anti-terror efforts, we should the right thing by giving one of the worst terrorists in world history full protection under the law of the very land that he and his pond scum associates have vowed over and over to destroy, even though he has no entitlement to such protection?
**shakes his fucking head**
really...the rationale is simply astonishing
| 170 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:51:33pm |
re: #168 Obdicut
Erg: Lose the WAR on terror, that is.
Apologies for screwing up a one-sentence post.
| 171 |
recusancy Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:51:45pm |
Who cares about downdings? Do we win a prize if we have a lot of updings?
| 172 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:52:14pm |
re: #145 J.S.
Where convictions are guaranteed prior to the trial? Where, in the event of a mistrial or a verdict of not guilty, the accused is nonetheless detained? held in custody? That's an "achievement" for justice?
Let's deal with the "what ifs" IF they happen -- let's deal with the "what is the right thing to do", now.
It's Eric Holder's job to make the call on this, and this guy does not want to go down in history as "the dude that let KSM go". No one wants that.
I suspect these guys have looked at the law and see it as more than just a solid case.
| 173 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:52:43pm |
re: #168 Obdicut
Dude, accusing other people of wanting to lose the terror is way, way out of line.
piss off...they redefine everything they can get their hands on...there is no war on terror is a typical meme..they are out of line, not me
| 174 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:52:51pm |
re: #167 Jimmah
I don't care how you qualify or how you amend your statements. When it comes to this situation, image is so far down the totem pole.
I guess I serially upding people I'm happy about too, or just the ones I agree with.
| 175 |
Aelius Rex Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:52:57pm |
Re: 73
"Let them have justice meted out to them; let them have every dignity and right accorded to them which they denied to their victims; let them be justly convicted under that very system of laws they hoped to subvert; let them be fairly and humanely convicted, with dignity, mere blocks from the scenes of inhumanity and horror they themselves staged--"
AMEN. Then take them out back and hang their asses.
| 176 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:53:22pm |
The Supreme Court has ruled (this goes back to 1856), if the accused has been denied Due Process under the US Constitution -- the remedy is Liberty. Wiki: If "... a person is deprived of liberty by a process that conflicts with some provision of the Constitution, then the Due Process Clause normally prescribes the remedy: restoration of that person's liberty."
| 177 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:53:23pm |
re: #171 recusancy
Who cares about downdings? Do we win a prize if we have a lot of updings?
Yes. You will be contacted by a Nigerian banker.
/
| 178 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:53:25pm |
the terrorists are laughing at us, that is all.
| 179 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:53:33pm |
re: #163 TheMatrix31
I guess I'm just so wee-wee'd up. Must be because I'm just some butthurt wingnut conservative whacko who clings to his guns and religion. Oh well.
What a bizarre comment, and how odd --and pathetic-- that anyone would upding it. You're spewing random Obama or 'lib' moans with no application to anything I've said, as if you're a chatbot that went on autopilot with a 'butthurt wingnut' program.
Here's an autopilot butthurt video in response:
| 180 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:53:33pm |
re: #132 keithgabryelski
This is utter crap.
If it comes down to image vs. our basic beliefs, we go with basic beliefs. When it comes down to image AND our basic beliefs -- lets stick with it.
This has everything to do justice. Justice given our values -- not justice metered out in their value system.
We are the leaders of the free world and other countries take our lead -- I'd rather fledgling democracies (as well as older ones) see our finest hours shine, instead of the cheap arguments against using our constitution in one situation or another.
THIS is a shining moment for America, for democracy, and for the rule of law.
We know what the rule of law is and we don't need to try KSM to prove it, any more than we needed to try OJ Simpson to prove how great it is.
The point is that we accord our citizens certain rights that we give heavy weight to, even at the possible expense of ourselves; and the reasons we do so have to do with the security and stability and cohesiveness of our society and system of government.
To accord the same to our avowed enemies would have lost us every war we have won in the past.
You don't know the difference between a police force and an army, nor why there should be one.
| 181 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:53:50pm |
re: #171 recusancy
Who cares about downdings? Do we win a prize if we have a lot of updings?
"What doth it profit a lizard if he gains the dings but loses..."
| 182 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:54:06pm |
re: #171 recusancy
Who cares about downdings? Do we win a prize if we have a lot of updings?
you'd be surprised...that's the entire reason a lot of people are here for...measuring their popularity...just listen to them
| 183 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:54:45pm |
re: #173 albusteve
I don't agree. You accused someone of wanting to lose the war on terror. That is out of line. I'm not downdinging you for it, because I know your emotions are hot right now, but it's very, very far out of line.
| 184 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:54:58pm |
re: #172 keithgabryelski
Let's deal with the "what ifs" IF they happen -- let's deal with the "what is the right thing to do", now.
It's Eric Holder's job to make the call on this, and this guy does not want to go down in history as "the dude that let KSM go". No one wants that.
I suspect these guys have looked at the law and see it as more than just a solid case.
Legislate from the bench because it is the right thing to do? Declare all persons on the planet have the rights under the Constitution?
The right thing to do is to try them in a military tribunal, then if we as a country wish to change the law to allow terrorists to be tried as criminals in civilian courts--work to change the law thru the legislature.
| 185 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:55:03pm |
re: #172 keithgabryelski
Where the conviction of the accused has been guaranteed by both the Attorney General and the President of the United Stats, is not a "what if." It has occurred.
| 186 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:55:36pm |
re: #177 Cannadian Club Akbar
Yes. You will be contacted by a Nigerian banker.
/
Your monthy zionist check is based on your updings.
/
| 187 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:55:50pm |
| 188 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:55:55pm |
re: #165 albusteve
all that is already established...the lines are drawn in Pakistan and Afghanistan...they already know about our image than they deserve thanks to pacifist handwringers, leakers and enablers...you people will eventually lose the WOT and I believe that's the ultimate goal here...we are no better than them, right
"You people"? Pacifists, leakers, enablers? Losing the war is "our" ultimate goal? Who are you talking to? Gosh what a pile of sub-Beckian babble.
| 189 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:56:01pm |
re: #172 keithgabryelski
Let's deal with the "what ifs" IF they happen -- let's deal with the "what is the right thing to do", now.
It's Eric Holder's job to make the call on this, and this guy does not want to go down in history as "the dude that let KSM go". No one wants that.
I suspect these guys have looked at the law and see it as more than just a solid case.
you have not followed...BO and Holder have already compromised the case by declaring the guy guilty, and BO...this is a waste of time
| 190 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:56:01pm |
I voted that I opposed the trial in NYC, but want to clarify (as I've been doing since the Administration made its intentions known).
I oppose the fact that the Administration is picking and choosing venues for some detainees but not others. If the tribunals are good for some detainees, it should be good for KSM and all the rest.
The Administration glosses over the fact that KSM and others are never going to see the light of day, and yet they're going to get trials in federal court, where the risk of letting terrorists gain access to sensitive (but not classified) information is present.
At the same time, President Obama himself says that he expects a death sentence for KSM (way to go in prejudicing a potential jury pool, in a way far more profound than the NY Post cover from Saturday ever could).
But, since federal court was chosen as the venue, the SDNY is the appropriate venue for reasons that include the NYPD being able to provide better security than any other law enforcement in the nation and that the prosecutors in SDNY know how to prosecute terror trials, although the issues here are unique in that we're not dealing with US citizens or individuals captured in the US, but rather those captured overseas and who are engaged in a war against the US.
Much more here.
| 191 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:56:14pm |
re: #166 HoosierHoops
You rock Hoops.
Told you before and will do so again.
| 192 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:56:42pm |
re: #162 iceweasel
Downdinged purely because you don't know Jimmah's connection to 9/11, if any, and because something like 300 of the 9-11 victims were foreign nationals, 1/3 (i think) of whom came from the UK and it's fucked up to presume anyone has a special claim on 9-11 compared to anyone else a priori.
Normally I would agree and would not bring nationality to play, however this was a singular tragedy in the history of America, it was a horrendous attack on the homeland and televised on live tv.
It is understandable that many people are very emotional around these hideous terrorist attacks.
| 193 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:56:59pm |
re: #185 J.S.
Where the conviction of the accused has been guaranteed by both the Attorney General and the President of the United Stats, is not a "what if." It has occurred.
They're not in the jury pool.
| 194 |
recusancy Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:58:08pm |
re: #189 albusteve
you have not followed...BO and Holder have already compromised the case by declaring the guy guilty, and BO...this is a waste of time
Every prosecutor says the person whom they are prosecuting is guilty. This is a federal case so the Fed's are the prosecutor. Your anger has you grasping at any argument you can concoct.
| 195 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:58:17pm |
re: #190 lawhawk
So rational. You're one of my favorites, dude.
| 196 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:58:18pm |
Two years ago or more, this same poll on LGF would have been about 99% NO and HELL NO. Of course even GWB never would have done something this stupid.
| 197 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:58:24pm |
re: #179 iceweasel
What a bizarre comment, and how odd --and pathetic-- that anyone would upding it. You're spewing random Obama or 'lib' moans with no application to anything I've said, as if you're a chatbot that went on autopilot with a 'butthurt wingnut' program.
Here's an autopilot butthurt video in response:
[Video]
so you are butthurted into shock...you don't really count with your windage and links...why do you support these trials in NYC instead of Gitmo and the military tribunals?...do you even have an answer...why don't you take a chance like Jimmah does
| 198 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:58:46pm |
re: #149 albusteve
a shining moment?...hope and change?...I want to puke...basic beliefs?...gimme a break...you want to put on a show for people that hate your guts...AmIdol Syndrome
I want rule of law to prevail -- and it will.
| 199 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:58:50pm |
re: #163 TheMatrix31
I guess I'm just so wee-wee'd up. Must be because I'm just some butthurt wingnut conservative whacko who clings to his guns and religion. Oh well.
Looks like a typical comment from 2.0.
| 200 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:59:17pm |
re: #175 Aelius Rex
Re: 73
"Let them have justice meted out to them; let them have every dignity and right accorded to them which they denied to their victims; let them be justly convicted under that very system of laws they hoped to subvert; let them be fairly and humanely convicted, with dignity, mere blocks from the scenes of inhumanity and horror they themselves staged--"
AMEN. Then take them out back and hang their asses.
This is exactly the stuff that drives the Christian wing-nutters to want the country to move to a theocracy:
-The rule of law is not followed -- justice is not meeted-out.
-The left wants to legislate from the bench
I do think this is going to backfire on Obama, The rest of the world may lov him, but the Becks, Palins and Malkins are going to prevail.
| 201 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:59:40pm |
re: #172 keithgabryelski
It's a solid case? I'm sure that the prosecutors who pushed the first Holy Land prosecution thought they had a solid case. That didn't exactly work out as planned.
They did much better the second time around.
Once a case gets in the hands of a jury, all bets are off as to how they respond to the evidence proffered. That's why 90% of cases settle before trial - all too many lawyers know the uncertainties of trial and instead seek the certainty of a plea deal (in criminal cases) or negotiated settlement (in civil cases).
And a death sentence isn't a sure thing either. All it takes is one juror to dissent and KSM or his cohorts would get life in Supermax.
The Administration and the DOJ may think that they've got a slam dunk case, but if that's the case, why not keep it in the tribunals, which they already believe are an appropriate venue for other detainees.
| 202 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 5:59:57pm |
re: #193 Decatur Deb
So what? You don't think that a juror will not have in the back of his or her mind that "the accused must be guilty of the crimes alleged, a guilty verdict is needed! -- after all the President and the Attorney General both state this!" (even on this board, there are people reassuring others that the guilty verdict is assured because Holder knows best.)
| 203 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:00:07pm |
re: #179 iceweasel
Please do not insert "butthurt" videos into a 911 thread.
| 205 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:01:21pm |
re: #188 Jimmah
"You people"? Pacifists, leakers, enablers? Losing the war is "our" ultimate goal? Who are you talking to? Gosh what a pile of sub-Beckian babble.
whatever...why is our image with Pakistan and Afghanistan so important to you?...and do you assume they don't already have an image of us?...both play BO like a fiddle...what makes you think he can alter our image?...just answer the question
| 206 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:01:33pm |
| 207 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:02:11pm |
re: #198 keithgabryelski
I want rule of law to prevail -- and it will.
the tribunals are the rule of law
| 208 |
Palmer_Eldritch Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:02:14pm |
I think this is the right decision. Convicting KSM and his cronies without a public trial would most likely result in more terrorism recruitment. If we descend to the level of despots and dictators, convicting people in secret in a kangaroo court, it's easy for terrorists to rally support for their cause, and we've lost the war. Our way of life: freedom, law, order, responsibility, will have been relinquished and our justice system will begin to look more and more like the justice systems in China, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq (under Saddam), and the old Soviet Union that we so vehemently oppose.
| 209 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:02:46pm |
re: #151 Naso Tang
What? Was it illegal for Bush to invent Gitmo or was that Holders predecessor?
I'm sorry, I lost the context.
Some of the things President Bush did with Gitmo and its prisoners were, by supreme court ruling, illegal.
My point was: It wasn't President Obama's decision to hold the trial in NYC, it was AG Holder, and it would be illegal for President Obama to attempt to sway the AG's position (I believe it is illegal, someone correct me if I am wrong here, please).
| 210 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:03:00pm |
re: #202 J.S.
So what? You don't think that a juror will not have in the back of his or her mind that "the accused must be guilty of the crimes alleged, a guilty verdict is needed! -- after all the President and the Attorney General both state this!" (even on this board, there are people reassuring others that the guilty verdict is assured because Holder knows best.)
I don't like the influence from on high, but it's a complicator that can be worked around by a good judge and lawyers. From this thread, it looks like getting a panel will take some work.
| 211 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:03:34pm |
re: #199 Jimmah
Looks like a typical comment from 2.0.
Jimmah, that was over the line. Matrix is angry about this issue, but he is not now, and has not ever acted like a ugly hater like those assholes over there.
/flips the stalkers the bird
| 212 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:03:35pm |
re: #208 Palmer_Eldritch
I think this is the right decision. Convicting KSM and his cronies without a public trial would most likely result in more terrorism recruitment. If we descend to the level of despots and dictators, convicting people in secret in a kangaroo court, it's easy for terrorists to rally support for their cause, and we've lost the war. Our way of life: freedom, law, order, responsibility, will have been relinquished and our justice system will begin to look more and more like the justice systems in China, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq (under Saddam), and the old Soviet Union that we so vehemently oppose.
Military tribunals are far from a kangaroo court.
| 213 |
checked08 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:03:36pm |
re: #197 albusteve
Careful or your ODS will turn into internet tough-guy-ism
| 214 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:03:47pm |
re: #167 Jimmah
Nope - you serially downding people you are unhappy about. Up until I called you on it, you downdinged every single post of mine on this thread, including simple, irrefutable statements of fact such as:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Nice try.
You're so vain
You probably think this thread is about you
You're so vain
I'll bet you think this thread is about you
Don't you? Don't you?
| 215 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:03:49pm |
re: #208 Palmer_Eldritch
They hate us regardless. It's why they murdered 3,000 of us eight years, two months, and seven days ago.
| 216 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:04:13pm |
re: #157 TheMatrix31
So in order to bolster our image with countries joining us in anti-terror efforts, we should the right thing by giving one of the worst terrorists in world history full protection under the law of the very land that he and his pond scum associates have vowed over and over to destroy, even though he has no entitlement to such protection?
**shakes his fucking head**
Garbage. It is not protection - it is merely the civilised way to pursue justice. We do the same with accused rapists, murderers and paedophiles. Would you call that extending goodwill?
| 217 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:04:26pm |
re: #179 iceweasel
What a bizarre comment, and how odd --and pathetic-- that anyone would upding it. You're spewing random Obama or 'lib' moans with no application to anything I've said, as if you're a chatbot that went on autopilot with a 'butthurt wingnut' program.
Here's an autopilot butthurt video in response:
[Video]
You don't sound like yourself tonight. Too much of that "Cute Name" 2009 vintage wine?
Some of us think war and crime differ. That's all.
| 218 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:04:32pm |
re: #201 lawhawk
It's a solid case? I'm sure that the prosecutors who pushed the first Holy Land prosecution thought they had a solid case. That didn't exactly work out as planned.
They did much better the second time around.
Once a case gets in the hands of a jury, all bets are off as to how they respond to the evidence proffered. That's why 90% of cases settle before trial - all too many lawyers know the uncertainties of trial and instead seek the certainty of a plea deal (in criminal cases) or negotiated settlement (in civil cases).
And a death sentence isn't a sure thing either. All it takes is one juror to dissent and KSM or his cohorts would get life in Supermax.
The Administration and the DOJ may think that they've got a slam dunk case, but if that's the case, why not keep it in the tribunals, which they already believe are an appropriate venue for other detainees.
no liberal here will answer you, or me, or many others...they want to blab about Americas image and how we owe it to apologize to the world
| 219 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:04:36pm |
re: #208 Palmer_Eldritch
I think this is the right decision. Convicting KSM and his cronies without a public trial would most likely result in more terrorism recruitment. If we descend to the level of despots and dictators, convicting people in secret in a kangaroo court, it's easy for terrorists to rally support for their cause, and we've lost the war. Our way of life: freedom, law, order, responsibility, will have been relinquished and our justice system will begin to look more and more like the justice systems in China, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq (under Saddam), and the old Soviet Union that we so vehemently oppose.
Do we hold trials based on any outcome but the just verdict? When did we start this?
What other people will think or do has nothing to do with this.
| 221 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:05:17pm |
re: #208 Palmer_Eldritch
I think this is the right decision. Convicting KSM and his cronies without a public trial would most likely result in more terrorism recruitment. If we descend to the level of despots and dictators, convicting people in secret in a kangaroo court, it's easy for terrorists to rally support for their cause, and we've lost the war. Our way of life: freedom, law, order, responsibility, will have been relinquished and our justice system will begin to look more and more like the justice systems in China, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq (under Saddam), and the old Soviet Union that we so vehemently oppose.
No...successful mass-casualty terrorist attacks result in more terrorism recruitment.
And just in case you weren't paying attention, the President of the United States has just more or less garunteed that KSM will be found guilty- how exactly does that not smack of a kangaroo court or show trial?
| 222 |
recusancy Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:05:21pm |
re: #211 Dark_Falcon
Jimmah, that was over the line. Matrix is angry about this issue, but he is not now, and has not ever acted like a ugly hater like those assholes over there.
/flips the stalkers the bird
What is 2.0?
| 223 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:05:42pm |
Exhibit 1. Case freakin' closed. Nobody can convince me this belongs in civilian court. Can't be done.
| 224 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:05:43pm |
re: #214 Alouette
You're so vain
You probably think this thread is about you
You're so vain
I'll bet you think this thread is about you
Don't you? Don't you?
WTF? No, what I think is that this is a silly comment.
| 225 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:05:50pm |
re: #218 albusteve
no liberal here will answer you, or me, or many others...they want to blab about Americas image and how we owe it to apologize to the world
How about if we stopped doling out foreign aid dollars, the image would take a fucking beating then.
| 226 |
fizzlogic Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:05:56pm |
OT:
Palin, whose book, "Going Rogue: An American Life," hit bookshelves today, took aim at the Obama administration's stance on Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories.
"I disagree with the Obama administration on that," Palin told Walters. "I believe that the Jewish settlements should be allowed to be expanded upon, because that population of Israel is, is going to grow. More and more Jewish people will be flocking to Israel in the days and weeks and months ahead. And I don't think that the Obama administration has any right to tell Israel that the Jewish settlements cannot expand."
Hmm, what to make of that? ...
| 227 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:05:58pm |
re: #216 Jimmah
Usually those are American citizens or those who are captured on US soil.
| 228 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:06:39pm |
re: #12 Killgore Trout
I'm going to sit on the fence with "unsure". If they can make this work then more power to them.
Big effin' "if" there, KT.
I feel pity for the poor folks who have to work in and around that area for the circus that this will become. That is my major problem with the whole thing.
| 229 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:06:41pm |
I gotta go.
Have a great evening all!
| 230 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:06:53pm |
re: #213 checked08
Careful or your ODS will turn into internet tough-guy-ism
aside from what you think, it's a pretty simple question...a lot of people don't like BO and this is why...it has nothing to do with your ODS parameters
| 231 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:06:55pm |
re: #164 ggt
WHERE DOES it afford non-citizens rights in our legal system? Are you referring to the status of "US Persons"?
WE the people means US Citizens and US Persons under the law IIRC. Only civilians on US soil are guaranteed rights. NOT combatants in war in another country.
They are not prisoners of war, President Bush took extra measures to ensure they had this "odd status" as "illegal combatant". The supreme court has said they are afforded some rights.
"WE THE PEOPLE" -- is the preamble, not law. Look at the amendments that state just "people" when it means person and "citizen" when it means US citizen.
Look at the 4th amendment for the people example.
Look at the description of who can vote for the latter example.
The writers of the constitution knew the difference between "people" and "citizens" and they used the words as they saw fit.
| 232 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:07:00pm |
re: #216 Jimmah
Did those hypothetical rapists and pedophiles repeatedly and opnely declare war on the United States?
| 233 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:07:13pm |
re: #227 TheMatrix31
Usually those are American citizens or those who are captured on US soil.
I guess our Constitution will cover everyone on the planet soon enough.
| 234 |
Digital Display Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:07:25pm |
| 235 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:08:00pm |
re: #233 soxfan4life
I guess our Constitution will cover everyone on the planet soon enough.
No, that's next year. This year, it's health "reform" and maybe cap & trade. Amnesty is for next year.
| 236 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:08:23pm |
re: #209 keithgabryelski
I'm sorry, I lost the context.
Some of the things President Bush did with Gitmo and its prisoners were, by supreme court ruling, illegal.
My point was: It wasn't President Obama's decision to hold the trial in NYC, it was AG Holder, and it would be illegal for President Obama to attempt to sway the AG's position (I believe it is illegal, someone correct me if I am wrong here, please).
As I said, I'm not a lawyer, but if this was a simple legal issue it would have been decide long ago, by the lawyers and/or the Supreme Court.
I don't believe your assumption that Holder decided this major policy issue regarding what is war and what is crime by citizens by his own little peewee self.
| 237 |
checked08 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:08:32pm |
re: #220 TheMatrix31
This discussion doesn't. His/Her comments do
| 238 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:08:35pm |
re: #215 TheMatrix31
And in a disgusting, ironic twist---this guy and the other four are going to be thanking their lucky stars they're going to be tried under the protections of the laws of the country they hate so much. Kind of ironic what democracy, freedom, and justice do in this case, eh?
| 239 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:09:03pm |
I, personally think that there is a chance that these trials will still be going on in November of 2012. There may be a political price to pay here.
I could be wrong.
| 240 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:09:17pm |
re: #232 Fenway_Nation
Did those hypothetical rapists and pedophiles repeatedly and opnely declare war on the United States?
Dude you are rolling tonight.
| 241 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:09:21pm |
re: #233 soxfan4life
I guess our Constitution will cover everyone on the planet soon enough.
I'ts a 'living document' dont'chyaknow...
| 242 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:09:26pm |
re: #211 Dark_Falcon
Jimmah, that was over the line. Matrix is angry about this issue, but he is not now, and has not ever acted like a ugly hater like those assholes over there.
/flips the stalkers the bird
No, it's not over the line. His views pretty much match those of the typical poster over at 2.0. That's fine with me as long as he argues fairly and in a civil manner. Unfortunately, his way of expressing himself has been getting more and more like that of a 2.0 poster as well lately.
| 243 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:09:50pm |
re: #217 Naso Tang
You don't sound like yourself tonight. Too much of that "Cute Name" 2009 vintage wine?
Some of us think war and crime differ. That's all.
hahaha!...it's over on this subject...better luck with that savage beast Sarah Palin hahaha!
| 244 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:10:22pm |
re: #232 Fenway_Nation
Did those hypothetical rapists and pedophiles repeatedly and opnely declare war on the United States?
Al Queda has no more standing to declare war on the US than does Tony Soprano. These are vile criminals and should not be elevated to the standing of warriors.
| 245 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:11:08pm |
re: #180 Naso Tang
We know what the rule of law is and we don't need to try KSM to prove it, any more than we needed to try OJ Simpson to prove how great it is.
We disagree -- we test our system every day with every contract and every docket. It is a good thing.
The point is that we accord our citizens certain rights that we give heavy weight to, even at the possible expense of ourselves; and the reasons we do so have to do with the security and stability and cohesiveness of our society and system of government.
To accord the same to our avowed enemies would have lost us every war we have won in the past.
The rights aren't exactly the same, but they are similar -- and the supreme court has ruled this.
You don't know the difference between a police force and an army, nor why there should be one.
You are mistaken.
| 246 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:11:08pm |
re: #243 albusteve
hahaha!...it's over on this subject...better luck with that savage beast Sarah Palin hahaha!
Don't think she won't make some hay over this...
| 247 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:11:14pm |
re: #149 albusteve
a shining moment?...hope and change?...I want to puke...basic beliefs?...gimme a break...you want to put on a show for people that hate your guts...AmIdol Syndrome
Yes, basic beliefs. The US justice system is the best in the world, and we have been and still are a shining beacon to the world in the area of human rights and civil liberties, even when we fall down (as I believe we have for the last 9 years)
Why are you so lacking confidence in the US system, if we put KSM on trial?
| 248 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:11:35pm |
re: #224 Jimmah
WTF? No, what I think is that this is a silly comment.
LGF has a "Ministry of Silly Comments".
I am Secretary.
| 249 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:11:53pm |
Just saw a clip of an exchange between John Kyl and Eric Holder. Forgive me if this has been discussed here before, but what Kyl asked/stated was stunning.
Is it true that KSM has already asked to plead guilty before a military court and be executed? Are you *$%#^(%^ me ?
And Holder's response was that it's not KSM's decision, but his, so there? Neener neener neener?
| 250 |
Digital Display Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:12:21pm |
re: #239 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I, personally think that there is a chance that these trials will still be going on in November of 2012. There may be a political price to pay here.
I could be wrong.
No you are right.. If This rolls on for a couple of years and plays out and makes the OJ trial look like play school.. Obama is Toast.. It's that simple.
| 251 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:12:23pm |
re: #247 iceweasel
What is this "We" stuff, Scotty?
/
| 252 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:12:24pm |
re: #237 checked08
This discussion doesn't. His/Her comments do
A person must like the President, and if they don't they suffer ODS? Is that what you're saying? I know Albusteve, like many here, is not exactly the President's biggest fan. But that's a far cry from ODS.
| 253 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:12:34pm |
re: #184 ggt
The right thing to do is to try them in a military tribunal, then if we as a country wish to change the law to allow terrorists to be tried as criminals in civilian courts--work to change the law thru the legislature.
Eric Holder, a pretty smart attorney, disagrees with you.
| 254 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:12:58pm |
re: #233 soxfan4life
And yet, seemingly so many want to see it and the country torn to shreds.
| 255 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:13:08pm |
re: #223 Rightwingconspirator
Okay. I'll try and play Devil's Advocate and proffer a reason for the detainees to be tried in federal court.
As Article 3 courts (which include federal district courts) are an appropriate venue to try crimes committed under Title 18 of the US Code, it is within the right of the Administration and the DOJ to determine that all detainees are eligible to be tried in federal court. With the appropriate safeguards, classified information will not be made public.
It is at the discretion of the Administration to do so, and therefore, it's an appropriate venue.
| 256 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:13:33pm |
re: #190 lawhawk
Updinged you and I agree with this post, although you and I fundamentally agree about other issues here-- and you have voted No while I have voted Yes. That's why I think the wording of the polls about this issue are off.
| 257 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:13:40pm |
re: #247 iceweasel
Yes, basic beliefs. The US justice system is the best in the world, and we have been and still are a shining beacon to the world in the area of human rights and civil liberties, even when we fall down (as I believe we have for the last 9 years)
Why are you so lacking confidence in the US system, if we put KSM on trial?
I don't lack confidence in the system, but I find it absurd that the POS is being given the same rights and protections under the law that I am. And more than our military members are afforded, especially if they were tried in Iraq or Afghanistan.
| 258 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:13:41pm |
re: #207 albusteve
the tribunals are the rule of law
Welll... not necessarily: SCOTUS: Tribunals exceeded Bush's authority
This isn't a big issue for me either way, I'd be okay with a military trial or a criminal trial. But it seems like this tribuanal vs. criminal court thing is not as simple as it's being made out.
| 259 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:13:49pm |
re: #222 recusancy
What is 2.0?
It's a blog run by some people who got banned from here. Much of its content is devoted to hating the people who post here. Iceweasel and Jimmah are two of the people the stalkers over there hate most, though they also attack me and Killgore on a regular basis. It's a nasty place, and its best to avoid them, save for occasional "know the enemy" scans.
| 260 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:14:11pm |
re: #231 keithgabryelski
The odd status is because they are not POWs under the Geneva Conventions, and their defense teams were successful in swaying the courts into giving them a status that exceeds that of POWs, who would never have access to the federal courts in a way that these detainees do.
| 261 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:14:21pm |
re: #244 Decatur Deb
Al Queda has no more standing to declare war on the US than does Tony Soprano. These are vile criminals and should not be elevated to the standing of warriors.
But we should be elevating these subhumans by giving them the same rights and protections as a motorist pulled over for a busted tail-light?
You know what would really boost al-Qaeda recruitment? Knowing that the worst that could happen to them if they're captured alive is to be brought back to the USA for criminal procedings where they'll get free legal representation, have the discovery process at their disposal and their food and accomodation paid for by the very people they're vowing to kill...
/Does not compute.
| 262 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:14:33pm |
re: #242 Jimmah
No, it's not over the line. His views pretty much match those of the typical poster over at 2.0. That's fine with me as long as he argues fairly and in a civil manner. Unfortunately, his way of expressing himself has been getting more and more like that of a 2.0 poster as well lately.
you drifted from the subject Jimmah, and are now in a nasty accusatory mode...why do you do this?...you should keep your unfounded suspicions to yourself...you do not enhance LGF with that cheap shit...you are over the line looking for a net of some sort...fail, and you take some of my respect for you with it
| 263 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:15:22pm |
re: #245 keithgabryelski
You are mistaken.
So far you have fooled me, but at least I am aware of the fact.
| 265 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:16:12pm |
re: #247 iceweasel
Yes, basic beliefs. The US justice system is the best in the world, and we have been and still are a shining beacon to the world in the area of human rights and civil liberties, even when we fall down (as I believe we have for the last 9 years)
Why are you so lacking confidence in the US system, if we put KSM on trial?
Holy fucking shit...do I have to put it in fucking skywriting? The fact that the justice system suddenly decided to award KSM- a foreign national who planned the deaths of thousands of Americans from the sanctuary of Afghanistan- the same rights as a pickpocket or peeping tom caught in Mayberry, NC greatly undermines my faith in the system.
| 266 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:16:17pm |
re: #261 Fenway_Nation
But we should be elevating these subhumans by giving them the same rights and protections as a motorist pulled over for a busted tail-light?
You know what would really boost al-Qaeda recruitment? Knowing that the worst that could happen to them if they're captured alive is to be brought back to the USA for criminal procedings where they'll get free legal representation, have the discovery process at their disposal and their food and accomodation paid for by the very people they're vowing to kill...
/Does not compute.
I doubt any of their loose AQ buddies want to trade places with them.
| 267 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:16:23pm |
re: #254 TheMatrix31
And yet, seemingly so many want to see it and the country torn to shreds.
Are you claiming that your fellow Americans who don't share your political ideology 'want to see the country torn to shreds'?
| 268 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:16:27pm |
re: #247 iceweasel
Yes, basic beliefs. The US justice system is the best in the world, and we have been and still are a shining beacon to the world in the area of human rights and civil liberties, even when we fall down (as I believe we have for the last 9 years)
Why are you so lacking confidence in the US system, if we put KSM on trial?
why don't you answer the question instead of dodging to and fro?
| 269 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:16:27pm |
re: #189 albusteve
you have not followed...BO and Holder have already compromised the case by declaring the guy guilty, and BO...this is a waste of time
I have been following this. Expressing an opinion about a trial when you are neither judge nor jury is not called "tainting" -- it's called ... AN OPINION.
Turns out the prosecuting attorney can have an opinion, too.
| 270 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:18:15pm |
re: #232 Fenway_Nation
Did those hypothetical rapists and pedophiles repeatedly and opnely declare war on the United States?
I addressed his comment about the notion of 'extending goodwill' and 'privileges' etc to the terrorists, when it does not do so any more than the court system does for the most vile criminals among us.
As for your point : this is something I have altered my opinion on as the years since 9/11 passed. At first I thought Bush's 'war' rhetoric was inevitable, even advantageous; now, I don't see why we should grant these terrorist criminals the 'privilege' of elevating them to the status of enemies in a war just because that is how THEY want to see it. The perpetrators of these acts are criminal scum of the worst kind, and should get the same treatment where possible.
| 271 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:18:36pm |
re: #261 Fenway_Nation
But we should be elevating these subhumans by giving them the same rights and protections as a motorist pulled over for a busted tail-light?
You know what would really boost al-Qaeda recruitment? Knowing that the worst that could happen to them if they're captured alive is to be brought back to the USA for criminal procedings where they'll get free legal representation, have the discovery process at their disposal and their food and accomodation paid for by the very people they're vowing to kill...
/Does not compute.
While I agree with the substance of your post, i must request that you revise it to remove the word "subhumans". That could be taken deliberately out of context as evidence of racism. I know that was not your intention, but we need to be alert to how our words may be twisted.
| 272 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:18:46pm |
re: #257 soxfan4life
I don't lack confidence in the system, but I find it absurd that the POS is being given the same rights and protections under the law that I am. And more than our military members are afforded, especially if they were tried in Iraq or Afghanistan.
But Ted Kaczynski and Tim McVeigh are okay for the same rights and protections, right?
I'm okay either way, military or federal, but I'm not going to flip out if these guys are given a trial just like McVeigh was.
| 273 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:19:06pm |
re: #266 Decatur Deb
I doubt any of their loose AQ buddies want to trade places with them.
So should we mirandize them before a missile is fired from a predator drone?
| 274 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:19:47pm |
re: #269 keithgabryelski
I have been following this. Expressing an opinion about a trial when you are neither judge nor jury is not called "tainting" -- it's called ... AN OPINION.
Turns out the prosecuting attorney can have an opinion, too.
we'll see...I'm sure you will be shocked at the result of BO badmouthing the defendants...
| 275 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:19:48pm |
re: #272 WindUpBird
But Ted Kaczynski and Tim McVeigh are okay for the same rights and protections, right?
I'm okay either way, military or federal, but I'm not going to flip out if these guys are given a trial just like McVeigh was.
Both were US citizens, KSM isn't. Big, no huge, difference
| 277 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:20:13pm |
i've said unsure purely on the legal merits. i haven't seen court papers and the admissibillity of evidence will be "interesting"...
| 278 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:20:17pm |
re: #236 Naso Tang
I don't believe your assumption that Holder decided this major policy issue regarding what is war and what is crime by citizens by his own little peewee self.
"peewee" status for the Attorney General of the United States of America.
Eeeassh -- you sure you want that on your Resume?
In any case, it is HIS responsibility -- there is no one above him on this decision.
| 279 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:20:51pm |
re: #261 Fenway_Nation
But we should be elevating these subhumans by giving them the same rights and protections as a motorist pulled over for a busted tail-light?
yes, just like McVeigh. Full rights and protections.
This is a really weird argument. A moving violation as you describe isn't even a misdemeanor.
| 280 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:20:55pm |
re: #273 Fenway_Nation
So should we mirandize them before a missile is fired from a predator drone?
Couldn't hurt, as long as the designator holds the target.
| 281 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:21:39pm |
The important thing, after all the arguing is over and done with, is that Obama and Holder are able to demonstrate their own superiority - ethically and legally - over the hated enemies of humanity and Constitutionalism by treating these cases as if they were mere breaches of the peace and murder, as they so clearly are, and not as criminal acts committed in furtherance of an unconventional war by a non-state actor, which they most certainly are not.
Only by ensuring that these men are able to drag the evils of the previous administration's misguided, unethical, and anti-American policies into their cases and before a court, can the AG later find, with the concurrence of the Congress, correctly, that there is a preponderance of evidence to undertake prosecutions of the monsters under whose dominion this nation, and the world, suffered for so long.
| 282 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:21:53pm |
Meanwhile, back at the farm, Code Pink's been busy sucking up to the terrorists in Afghanistan. And, Jodi Evans had a package from her trip to give to BHO and Harry Reid.
NJDhockeyfan posted this yesterday. I've reposted it a time or three today. It bears reposting repeatedly. E-mail the article to all your friends, and your moonbat enemies, too.
Top Obama donor and fundraiser Jodie Evans met with the Taliban in Afghanistan on a recent trip there, according to a report by Jane Fonda of a discussion she had with Evans last month. The meeting with the Taliban took place just weeks before Evans was videotaped directly handing to President Barack Obama a package of information about her trip to Afghanistan at a high dollar fundraiser in San Francisco.
The meeting with the Taliban was kept secret by Evans and her group Code Pink in reports she and the group posted from Kabul and in interviews with the media and bloggers about the trip. Fonda, a close friend of Evans, let the secret meeting slip in an account of her dinner with Evans at a fundraiser for the Armand Hammer Museum in Los Angeles:
Last Saturday, My dear friends Jodie Evans and Max Palevsky, invited Richard and me to join them at their table at a fundraiser at the Armand Hammer Museum in Westwood. It was a good evening for lots of reasons. I had never been to the museum and definitely want to go back. Clearly it is a courageous place, very cutting edge. Then, too, I saw lots of friends I hadn’t seen in a long time and I sat next to Jodie who told me a little about her recent trip to Afghanistan with an American delegation that included a retired colonel, and member the State Department (Army Reserves Col. (Ret.) and ex-diplomat Ann Wright). While there, she met with people ranging from the brother of President Karzai, Afghan members of Parliament, activists, to warlords and members of the Taliban (emphasis added.) Jodie is co-founder of the peace organization, Code Pink, and always willing to go to any lengths to try and find out what’s really going on. Bottom line: everyone she met with wants the U.S. Military out of their country. They feel our presence there has brought more violence rather than security. Please read a short article she wrote about the trip which is on the Women’s Media Center website.
HASSAN CHOP
| 283 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:22:04pm |
re: #269 keithgabryelski
My objection has less to do with influencing potential jurors (which i believe it may), then with the problem of having a Show Trial. That is one of the features in a Banana Republic -- The Verdict is Determined prior to any "trial" by Dear Leader. So, just what do you think the critics around the world are going to exclaim, given a guilty verdict?
| 284 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:22:08pm |
re: #267 iceweasel
Thanks for putting words into my mouth. It's the only way you operate I guess.
No, I meant around the world. The enemies of America.
| 285 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:22:24pm |
I know this is a "Hot Button Issue" for many of us.
I also hope to not see any Lizard get the stick, tonight, for over heated comments.
I don't know what to think about the trials being held in NY.
It doesn't seem right, that they aren't Military Trials, but then, it also doesn't seem right that nothing has been done, until now.
I hope this strategy works.
| 286 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:22:30pm |
re: #260 lawhawk
The odd status is because they are not POWs under the Geneva Conventions, and their defense teams were successful in swaying the courts into giving them a status that exceeds that of POWs, who would never have access to the federal courts in a way that these detainees do.
You seem to be blaming the defense teams instead of the people that mishandled their original classification and detainment.
| 287 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:22:39pm |
re: #258 WindUpBird
That decision was taken into account when amendments were made to bring the Military Commissions Act into conformity with the S.Ct. cases. The Obama Administration has all along claimed that it would constitute the tribunals.
| 288 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:22:51pm |
re: #273 Fenway_Nation
So should we mirandize them before a missile is fired from a predator drone?
naaah, like I said before just tape it to the bloody thing.
| 289 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:23:04pm |
re: #281 Guanxi88
The important thing, after all the arguing is over and done with, is that Obama and Holder are able to demonstrate their own superiority - ethically and legally - over the hated enemies of humanity and Constitutionalism by treating these cases as if they were mere breaches of the peace and murder, as they so clearly are, and not as criminal acts committed in furtherance of an unconventional war by a non-state actor, which they most certainly are not.
Only by ensuring that these men are able to drag the evils of the previous administration's misguided, unethical, and anti-American policies into their cases and before a court, can the AG later find, with the concurrence of the Congress, correctly, that there is a preponderance of evidence to undertake prosecutions of the monsters under whose dominion this nation, and the world, suffered for so long.
What you said. In triplicate.
| 290 |
Gearhead Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:23:08pm |
re: #273 Fenway_Nation
So should we mirandize them before a missile is fired from a predator drone?
Stenciling it on the side if the missile is usually considered adequate.
| 291 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:23:09pm |
re: #249 borgcube
Just saw a clip of an exchange between John Kyl and Eric Holder. Forgive me if this has been discussed here before, but what Kyl asked/stated was stunning.
Is it true that KSM has already asked to plead guilty before a military court and be executed? Are you *$%#^(%^ me ?
And Holder's response was that it's not KSM's decision, but his, so there? Neener neener neener?
He wants to be "martyred" so he can go to paradise and get his 72 houris. I'd rather see his ass locked up until he dies, maybe with some pot bellied pigs as cellmates so that he is "unclean" at death. Giving him the death penalty is just giving him exactly what he wants so that his buddies can use his death as a further recruiting tool. Locking him up in solitary and then forgetting about as his ass is probably about the worst punishment we could give him from his viewpoint.
| 292 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:23:18pm |
re: #248 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
LGF has a "Ministry of Silly Comments".
I am Secretary.
Dude, you so read my mind.
| 293 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:23:23pm |
re: #279 WindUpBird
McVeigh was an American citicizen who was captured on American soil.
Come to think of it, so was Bill Ayers. Two people who sought to accomplish basically the same thing...two very different fates.
| 294 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:23:39pm |
re: #247 iceweasel
Yes, basic beliefs. The US justice system is the best in the world, and we have been and still are a shining beacon to the world in the area of human rights and civil liberties, even when we fall down (as I believe we have for the last 9 years)
Why are you so lacking confidence in the US system, if we put KSM on trial?
I still remember, vividly, how it can be perverted through the OJ example given enough incentive and money and allegations of racism and police persecution.
Are you going to tell me that you believe he was innocent, as our system says, because of the 12 stupidest citizens we have?
This will be a show trial, of the USA, and we will not be the winners.
| 295 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:24:32pm |
re: #275 soxfan4life
Both were US citizens, KSM isn't. Big, no huge, difference
| 297 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:24:57pm |
In the UK, the IRA DEMANDED the status of war combatant for years. We did not give them it. The IRA knew what was good for them, politically. Go figure.
| 299 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:25:07pm |
| 300 |
Digital Display Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:25:15pm |
Well on a positive note.. If KSM is found guilt and sentenced to death.. He will be put to death in Indiana.
I'll take pictures Lizards...It's right down the road
| 301 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:25:24pm |
re: #282 MandyManners
Meanwhile, back at the farm, Code Pink's been busy sucking up to the terrorists in Afghanistan. And, Jodi Evans had a package from her trip to give to BHO and Harry Reid.
NJDhockeyfan posted this yesterday. I've reposted it a time or three today. It bears reposting repeatedly. E-mail the article to all your friends, and your moonbat enemies, too.
Top Obama donor and fundraiser Jodie Evans met with the Taliban in Afghanistan on a recent trip there, according to a report by Jane Fonda of a discussion she had with Evans last month. The meeting with the Taliban took place just weeks before Evans was videotaped directly handing to President Barack Obama a package of information about her trip to Afghanistan at a high dollar fundraiser in San Francisco.
The meeting with the Taliban was kept secret by Evans and her group Code Pink in reports she and the group posted from Kabul and in interviews with the media and bloggers about the trip. Fonda, a close friend of Evans, let the secret meeting slip in an account of her dinner with Evans at a fundraiser for the Armand Hammer Museum in Los Angeles:
HASSAN CHOP
Jane Fonda: Betraying America for 40 years and counting.
/spits
| 302 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:25:54pm |
re: #285 Floral Giraffe
If KSM said he wants to plead guilty in front of a military court and be executed, well, that's enough for me. Case closed.
| 303 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:26:07pm |
re: #286 keithgabryelski
There was nothing wrong with the original classification. These terrorists were not protected classes under the Geneva Conventions, and affording them protections as such is an affront and undermines the very Conventions. They were not POWs, and they certainly weren't civilians.
They were a class that the legal system never before confronted, and the Administration determined that treating them humanely but outside the traditional civilian federal court system was appropriate.
| 305 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:26:52pm |
| 306 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:26:57pm |
re: #302 borgcube
If KSM said he wants to plead guilty in front of a military court and be executed, well, that's enough for me. Case closed.
Quite Concur.
| 308 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:27:07pm |
re: #274 albusteve
we'll see...I'm sure you will be shocked at the result of BO badmouthing the defendants...
don't get me wrong -- I think President Obama should have stayed out of the discussion, but in his effort to ease the concerns of the nation he weighed in on an obvious opinion.
President Obama's opinion on KSM's guilt clearly doesn't sway people on this forum, so why should it sway every potential person in a jury pool?
A fair jury pool can be found, will be found -- and we'll get this done.
| 310 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:27:50pm |
re: #260 lawhawk
The odd status is because they are not POWs under the Geneva Conventions, and their defense teams were successful in swaying the courts into giving them a status that exceeds that of POWs, who would never have access to the federal courts in a way that these detainees do.
Did you say "defense teams"? Like the one at Perkins Coie, the firm at which Robert Bauer is a partner? You know--Robert Bauer--the new White House counsel and husband of Anita Dunn.
Perkins Coie, the firm that represented bin Laden's bodyguard and limo driver.
| 311 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:28:00pm |
| 312 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:28:25pm |
re: #256 iceweasel
I agree that the wording of the poll (and many others like it around the 'net) is fraught with problems - because there are several interconnected issues.
| 313 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:28:26pm |
re: #293 Fenway_Nation
McVeigh was an American citicizen who was captured on American soil.
Is being captured on American soil the issue? Moussaoui was not an American citizen.
| 314 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:28:27pm |
re: #290 Gearhead
Stenciling it on the side if the missile is usually considered adequate.
When Israelis do it, it's a war crime!
| 315 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:28:27pm |
re: #273 Fenway_Nation
So should we mirandize them before a missile is fired from a predator drone?
an honest legal question imo...the liberal argument here is a total bust...I've never seen anything like it on any blog, ever...Jimmah and his mate and the few people trying their best to defend this decision really exposes them for what they are...enablers, surrogates, and people who will do anything to enhance the terrorists to victims...obsessed with messages of of atonement to the very people that hate us with a passion...liberals have set back their cred today by mile that cannot be made up imo...this is about life and death, not images
| 316 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:28:39pm |
re: #302 borgcube
If KSM said he wants to plead guilty in front of a military court and be executed, well, that's enough for me. Case closed.
Not good enough. I want them to be seen as the ultimate losers. And a life sentence keeps the message alive much longer than a quick "martyrdom".
| 317 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:28:40pm |
re: #301 Dark_Falcon
Jane Fonda: Betraying America for 40 years and counting.
/spits
Fuck Fonda. Focus on Evans and BHO.
| 318 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:29:02pm |
re: #295 WindUpBird
Where was he arrested, by whom, and on what charges?
KSM was grabbed by the ISI, in Pakistan.
Moussaoui? by the FBI, in Minnesota, on immigration charges.
And yet, they're the same, are they?
| 319 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:29:41pm |
I've said it before, but it bears repeating-
THE ENEMIES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ARE GLAD OBAMA WON THE ELECTION.
Prove me wrong after this last week or so...
| 320 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:29:49pm |
re: #255 lawhawk
Hey nice try. I have admired a number of your posts. I see the legal point, but as you point out it's their choice, and they got it wrong. If we must have a trial (which I'm not convinced of anyway) I say a military tribunal is fine. It's not a "no confidence" vote in our justice system, it's a positive vote of real confidence in our warriors ability to do a tribunal well, and carry out the sentence.
| 321 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:29:57pm |
Just how much money did Evans help raise for BHO?
| 322 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:29:57pm |
re: #307 Naso Tang
WTF?
That was my immediate thought when I heard Holder trot out his cunning plan.
| 323 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:30:06pm |
re: #299 TheMatrix31
Ironic that you're quoting that username.
"Guilty as sin, free as a bird"
| 324 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:30:09pm |
re: #316 Decatur Deb
No. My taxpayer dollars will not be spent keeping this fucker alive.
/They'll be too busy being used to pay off trillions, anyway.
| 325 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:30:43pm |
re: #283 J.S.
My objection has less to do with influencing potential jurors (which i believe it may), then with the problem of having a Show Trial. That is one of the features in a Banana Republic -- The Verdict is Determined prior to any "trial" by Dear Leader. So, just what do you think the critics around the world are going to exclaim, given a guilty verdict?
I see what is meant by "show trial" now... I think any trial can be called such, the evidence against it is the transparency of the process.
Sure, someone will claim a fraud, plenty of objective observers will claim otherwise.
| 326 |
Liberally Conservative Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:30:43pm |
re: #319 Fenway_Nation
I've said it before, but it bears repeating-
THE FRIENDS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ARE GLAD OBAMA WON THE ELECTION.
Prove me wrong after this last week or so...
This, too!
| 327 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:30:44pm |
re: #281 Guanxi88
The important thing, after all the arguing is over and done with, is that Obama and Holder are able to demonstrate their own superiority - ethically and legally - over the hated enemies of humanity and Constitutionalism by treating these cases as if they were mere breaches of the peace and murder, as they so clearly are, and not as criminal acts committed in furtherance of an unconventional war by a non-state actor, which they most certainly are not.
Only by ensuring that these men are able to drag the evils of the previous administration's misguided, unethical, and anti-American policies into their cases and before a court, can the AG later find, with the concurrence of the Congress, correctly, that there is a preponderance of evidence to undertake prosecutions of the monsters under whose dominion this nation, and the world, suffered for so long.
yup...pretty simple when you wash away all the windy leftbanger rhetoric
| 328 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:30:52pm |
re: #318 Guanxi88
John Walker Lindh is the only case I can think of where he was picked up overseas by the CIA/military and brought back for trial.
| 329 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:31:20pm |
re: #323 WindUpBird
Just pointing out that it's ironic, since he mentioned Bill Ayers in his response and your name happens to have the word "bird" in it.
| 330 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:31:43pm |
re: #329 TheMatrix31
Just pointing out that it's ironic, since he mentioned Bill Ayers in his response and your name happens to have the word "bird" in it.
Ahhh comedy.
| 331 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:31:50pm |
| 332 |
RightOnTheLeftCoast Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:32:42pm |
re: #295 WindUpBird
As I mentioned earlier, the Moussaoui case is irrelevant to KSM.
He was arrested on US soil by the police. Thus, he comes under the jurisdiction of US law, Constitutional protections, and the civilian court system.
KSM does not.
Even under the Geneva Convention, such military tribunal/commision trials as he was previously destined for would have been perfectly appropriate. Under Geneva guidelines, he would be considered an illegal combatant, and not a normal POW. Technically, he could have been questioned and summarily executed and still meet the letter of the law under the GC.
There is no precedent for bringing someone who planned what was essentially a military attack on the US while on foreign soil, and was captured on foreign soil during the military campaign that resulted from that attack being brought into the US civilian justice system and given a trial in that venue, subject to the restrictions and criteria that were designed to give the accused a fair trial. The evidence and procedures followed on the battlefield during the fog of war are a very different thing, and may not stand up to the standards evidence and prosecution are held to in civilian courts.
| 333 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:33:07pm |
re: #257 soxfan4life
I don't lack confidence in the system, but I find it absurd that the POS is being given the same rights and protections under the law that I am. And more than our military members are afforded, especially if they were tried in Iraq or Afghanistan.
I'll take your second point, the bolded bit, first as it's easiest: We afford it to them even though they deny it to us because we are better than they are.
the second, pragmatic justification: insofar as we refuse to treat captured persons badly, we make it harder and harder for the other side to do it to us and continue to slander us as doing that.
Now your second;
I find it absurd that the POS is being given the same rights and protections under the law that I am.
i don't. I look at it as showing that POS and those like him that while they consider all human life worth nothing, we consider every person to have certain unalienable rights: and we are so unafraid of the terrorists that we will convict them under the very system of laws they loathe and wish to subvert--
The same system that ensures that I have the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to an abortion, and the right to drive. The system that ensures that a woman will get an education and forbids the exclusion of women from schools or professions. The system that allows people with the terrorists' own views to express them freely!-- and the system that defends our free speech rights to criticise our President, or anyone else.
Yes. I want them lawfully convicted under THAT system.
We aren't 'reducing citizens to their level' by trying them this way. We are elevating them to the status of humans by treating them as such-- and most of all, we are saying that we are so much above them that we can afford to give them the rights they deny to themselves and to their own people-- because they are so afraid of that freedom.
| 334 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:34:02pm |
re: #322 Guanxi88
That was my immediate thought when I heard Holder trot out his cunning plan.
Look, I know we play loosy loosy with the tag around here, but sometimes they are a good idea when shit starts flying between previously calm debaters.
| 335 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:34:03pm |
re: #328 Killgore Trout
John Walker Lindh is the only case I can think of where he was picked up overseas by the CIA/military and brought back for trial.
And a terrible idea it was, too. Johnny Jihad there was charged in connection with the death of a CIA asset murdered by JWL and his poor oppressed comrades. He pleaded to bearing arms for the Taliban; he wasn't tried as a terrorist.
| 336 |
Liberally Conservative Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:34:35pm |
re: #331 soxfan4life
Israel is just fucking ecstatic.
Give the Obama admin a few months, they'll figure out that Israel is stubborn as hell, but the Palestinians are impossible to negotiate with, and it'll be back to the status quo. For all the talk about resetting the Mid-East peace process, nothing substantive has actually *happened* yet, has it?
| 337 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:34:42pm |
re: #324 TheMatrix31
No. My taxpayer dollars will not be spent keeping this fucker alive.
/They'll be too busy being used to pay off trillions, anyway.
These people serve America's interests better if they are kept in cages.
| 339 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:34:58pm |
re: #328 Killgore Trout
John Walker Lindh is the only case I can think of where he was picked up overseas by the CIA/military and brought back for trial.
he's lucky to be alive...when rounds come out the barrel of an M4 it's done...they missed and he's alive to bitch about it...lucky him eh?
| 340 |
_RememberTonyC Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:35:12pm |
maybe Holder will allow sharia law to be used too
/
| 343 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:35:37pm |
re: #328 Killgore Trout
John Walker Lindh is the only case I can think of where he was picked up overseas by the CIA/military and brought back for trial.
Yes, but he is an American citizen, so it is different in his case.
| 344 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:35:58pm |
OT: Rally against Sharia law, for universal human rights
From One law for all - No religious laws or courts
Saturday, 21 November 2009
12 noon to 2pm
Hyde Park, on North Carriage Drive, between Stanhope Place Gate and Albion Gate, Hyde Park (closest underground Marble Arch).Speakers include philosopher AC Grayling, columnist Johann Hari, human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell, Bangladeshi feminist writer Taslima Nasrin, Southall Black Sisters’ Pragna Patel and Women Against Fundamentalism’s Rahila Gupta. A full list of speakers, including Iranian and Iraqi activists, follows below.
“Organised by the One Law for All campaign, Saturday’s rally is in opposition to all religious laws in Britain and worldwide,” said campaign spokesperson, Maryam Namazie
“In particular, we are showing solidarity with people who are resisting Sharia law and defending universal human rights and secularism,” she said.
Expressing his support for the One Law For All campaign, human rights defender Peter Tatchell of the LGBT group OutRage! said:
“This protest is in solidarity with Muslims worldwide who are campaigning against the inequalities and inhumanities of Sharia law. We reject all religious laws and courts, including those inspired by Judaist and Christian fundamentalism.
continued :
[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]
| 345 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:36:22pm |
re: #337 Decatur Deb
I think they serve America's interests best by turning them into worm food.
| 346 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:36:46pm |
| 347 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:37:22pm |
| 348 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:37:43pm |
| 349 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:37:51pm |
re: #333 iceweasel
i don't. I look at it as showing that POS and those like him that while they consider all human life worth nothing, we consider every person to have certain unalienable rights: and we are so unafraid of the terrorists that we will convict them under the very system of laws they loathe and wish to subvert--
The same system that ensures that I have the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to an abortion, and the right to drive. The system that ensures that a woman will get an education and forbids the exclusion of women from schools or professions. The system that allows people with the terrorists' own views to express them freely!-- and the system that defends our free speech rights to criticise our President, or anyone else.
Yes. I want them lawfully convicted under THAT system.
We aren't 'reducing citizens to their level' by trying them this way. We are elevating them to the status of humans by treating them as such-- and most of all, we are saying that we are so much above them that we can afford to give them the rights they deny to themselves and to their own people-- because they are so afraid of that freedom.
blah blah blah...all blab...why do you support the trials to be held in NYC as oppsred to tribunals at Gitmo?...and this other blabola will be taken in context if you answer the question
| 350 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:38:26pm |
re: #325 keithgabryelski
There are many (btw) who allege that the outcome of these trials (and let's all bear in mind that this invovles more than just KSM), the outcome is so politically fraught, so essential to obtain the "correct" verdict, that all sorts of bending of the rules will be taking place. (some of these cases, if you read the bios of these people -- one of the accused, now potentially facing a death sentence in a military tribunal is alleged to have provided financing to terrorist-types -- he claims, of course, that he's innocent (and apparently officials in the Obama administration were ready to release him from Gitmo, as a free man -- but now he's headed for a military tribunal...I really can't understand why this person isn't going to a Federal civilian court...)
| 351 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:38:40pm |
re: #346 MandyManners
I once dated an unconvential Genevan.
pet peev of mine... there were 4 of them. btw how did that work out?
| 352 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:39:01pm |
re: #333 iceweasel
because they are so afraid of that freedom.
Not really...they embrace those freedoms as long as they can use it against us. True those are the same freedoms they don't want others to have, bust as long as it gives them room to manuever logistically, judicially, or tactically then it suits them just fine.
| 353 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:41:00pm |
Actually John Stewart says it pretty well.
[Link: www.hulu.com...]
I am really tired of the phony whining of the right, that we might actually live up to the ideals we are supposed to.
Get this straight.
The United Sates is a nation of laws. We stand for those things. Those laws are what gives us the liberties we hold dear.
To those of you who fear actually applying the law, you should find a different country with different values.
The North Koreans think like you do too.
| 354 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:41:57pm |
re: #351 brookly red
pet peev of mine... there were 4 of them. btw how did that work out?
Not too well. He had this thing about wanting to play "Where's your canton?" that really creeped me out. And, I wasn't gonna' be anyone's Swiss Miss.
| 355 |
Gearhead Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:42:47pm |
What bothers me about the trial isn't the issue of KSM's status under the Geneva Convention. IMO, the fact that he is still breathing shows that we are better than KSM and his ilk. It is the media circus that will play out around the world. Something he says in the court or in a deposition will get quoted out of context and without meaningful analysis by people who don't like the US anyway, and it will just become a rallying cry.
| 356 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:42:51pm |
re: #353 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually John Stewart says it pretty well.
[Link: www.hulu.com...]
I am really tired of the phony whining of the right, that we might actually live up to the ideals we are supposed to.
Get this straight.
The United Sates is a nation of laws. We stand for those things. Those laws are what gives us the liberties we hold dear.
To those of you who fear actually applying the law, you should find a different country with different values.
The North Koreans think like you do too.
Those laws don't apply to foreign illegal combatants captured on foreign soil. They have no constitutional rights, nor any rights under the Geneva Conventions.
| 357 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:43:03pm |
re: #353 LudwigVanQuixote
And the military tribunals are part of US law and are an established and viable forum for trying these detainees. Yet, you think of them as somehow inferior even as the Administration is going to use them in some cases.
Why, if they are sufficient in some instances, not use them for KSM and the rest? The constitutional safeguards were included, and we've already seen that the courts are amenable to demanding (and getting) changes in the Military Commissions Act.
| 358 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:43:23pm |
re: #354 MandyManners
Not too well. He had this thing about wanting to play "Where's your canton?" that really creeped me out. And, I wasn't gonna' be anyone's Swiss Miss.
canton? oh my...
| 359 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:43:43pm |
re: #353 LudwigVanQuixote
I apply the law to those who are entitled to such law.
Thanks for calling all of us dictators, though. Much appreciated.
| 360 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:43:51pm |
| 361 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:43:57pm |
re: #353 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually John Stewart says it pretty well.
[Link: www.hulu.com...]
I am really tired of the phony whining of the right, that we might actually live up to the ideals we are supposed to.
Get this straight.
The United Sates is a nation of laws. We stand for those things. Those laws are what gives us the liberties we hold dear.
To those of you who fear actually applying the law, you should find a different country with different values.
The North Koreans think like you do too.
fuck you Lud...what is it about the tribunals that is unlawful?...your comparison to N korea is just about what I expected of you...when people disagree with you you freak out...go piss up a rope
| 362 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:44:10pm |
In fact watch the clip. Watch Guiliani talking about how great it was when we tried Mousoui - that we are a nation of laws, and then watch him do a 180 on this.
It is Bollocks.
If you don't support American Law, you don't support America. And, I am really really tired of GOP douchebags thinking I have no memory.
| 363 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:44:24pm |
re: #316 Decatur Deb
Couldn't disagree more. We've already lost this one now regardless of what happens in court. This guy should have been pushing up daisies a few months after he was in our custody, but that's probably being too insensitive to daisies come to think of it.
I'll repeat it here again. May 8th 1945. End of WWII in Europe. October 16th 1946. Nuremberg Trials over and sentences carried out. Zero wussiness unlike now.
| 364 |
Egregious Philbin Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:44:34pm |
Quick note, Jim Robinson from Free Republic is publicly calling for secession from the USA.
Sure is one goofy world over there.
| 365 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:44:40pm |
re: #353 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually John Stewart says it pretty well.
[Link: www.hulu.com...]
I am really tired of the phony whining of the right, that we might actually live up to the ideals we are supposed to.
Get this straight.
The United Sates is a nation of laws. We stand for those things. Those laws are what gives us the liberties we hold dear.
To those of you who fear actually applying the law, you should find a different country with different values.
The North Koreans think like you do too.
Fuck. You.
| 366 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:44:42pm |
| 367 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:44:54pm |
re: #353 LudwigVanQuixote
So in other words...you and John Stewart are questioning my patriotism.
| 368 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:45:15pm |
re: #353 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes, and those laws give us the OPTION of a Federal court, a military court, or just keep them until hostilities are over. BTW, considering John Stewarts view of how Israel and the Palestinians deal with their war... He has zero credibility as far as I'm concerned. Let the Canadian comic stick to being funny. This ain't it.
| 370 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:45:40pm |
re: #353 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually John Stewart says it pretty well.
[Link: www.hulu.com...]
I am really tired of the phony whining of the right, that we might actually live up to the ideals we are supposed to.
Get this straight.
The United Sates is a nation of laws. We stand for those things. Those laws are what gives us the liberties we hold dear.
To those of you who fear actually applying the law, you should find a different country with different values.
The North Koreans think like you do too.
I say this with all due respect, fuck you.Just because I don't believe what you believe doesn't give you the juice to tell me to leave. Is anyone asking you to leave? I guess while giving the terrorist scum Constitutional protection you don't mind stepping on citizens First Amendment rights.
| 371 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:46:22pm |
re: #363 borgcube
Couldn't disagree more. We've already lost this one now regardless of what happens in court. This guy should have been pushing up daisies a few months after he was in our custody, but that's probably being too insensitive to daisies come to think of it.
I'll repeat it here again. May 8th 1945. End of WWII in Europe. October 16th 1946. Nuremberg Trials over and sentences carried out. Zero wussiness unlike now.
Nuremberg was a coalition effort, involving the major allied powers. Do you want to try for that now?
| 372 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:46:26pm |
re: #353 LudwigVanQuixote
The North Koreans think like you do too.
That is also over the line.
Jesus, people, keep your damn pants on.
| 373 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:47:19pm |
re: #372 Obdicut
I think that's my second down ding I gave in a year. That last line did it.
| 374 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:47:21pm |
re: #372 Obdicut
Pants? Never heard of it. What is pants?
| 375 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:47:42pm |
I want to thank Lawhawk for his precise and fair assessments of the legal situation here...well thought out and expressed without the emotion that tends to degrade a debate...this guy keeps his cool and refuses to get rattled...thanks again bro
| 376 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:47:44pm |
| 377 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:48:20pm |
re: #357 lawhawk
Uhhh Huh, so then on what did we try the shoe bomber?
He got life in prison...
Where did we try the first batch of twin tower bombers?
You have got to be kidding.
re: #361 albusteve
No fuck you. I never said that tribunals are unlawful a priori. I said that detaining people without a fair hearing for years and torturing them is against everything that American law is supposed to stand for.
re: #359 TheMatrix31
Then don't support dictatorial legal systems. No actually I did not call all Americans dictators, far from it. There are some of us who still believe in our system. I am however calling you a sycophant to wannbe dictators.
| 378 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:48:50pm |
| 379 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:49:01pm |
re: #376 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Not sure I have any respect for him anymore after that.
| 380 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:49:08pm |
re: #365 MandyManners
Fuck. You.
Then fuck you back sideways. This is America and we don't need idiots and craven fools destroying her foundations. You really don't see how your stupidity gives the terrorists a win do you?
| 382 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:49:18pm |
re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote
I am however calling you a sycophant to wannbe dictators.
I think that you might want to take some time off tonight. And I voted yes, and I happy to defend my vote yes without having to accuse anyone else of anything else.
| 384 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:49:45pm |
re: #376 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Disagreeing with a white hot passion.
All respect, guy.
Fair enough. Just remember you are also disagreeing with guys like Washington, Adams and Jefferson.
| 385 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:49:49pm |
re: #342 soxfan4life
We can just agree to disagree.
yep. This is an area where I usually prefer to stay out of the convo on LGF because i have strong views, and in the minority, and I know my views can't be changed. Sometimes we have to just agree to disagree because we've hit a bedrock place where we know neither of us can move.
For the record though, I appreciate that our talk was cordial and I'd look forward to talking more in the future about it! Always a pleasure sf4l.
| 386 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:50:43pm |
re: #371 Decatur Deb
And 9-11 was an attack on American soil. We don't need no stinkin' coalition in the case of KSM.
| 387 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:51:08pm |
re: #362 LudwigVanQuixote
If you don't support American Law, you don't support America.
A lot of people support an imaginary America, one that never existed except in their heads.
| 388 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:51:26pm |
re: #378 MandyManners
*whack*
Ain't no need to take the Lord's name in vain, son.
I don't have a lord.
Reminded me of the scene in the Indiana Jones: The Last Crusade movie. I liked it, I don't care what anyone says.
| 389 |
charlz Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:51:40pm |
re: #303 lawhawk
These terrorists were not protected classes under the Geneva Conventions, and affording them protections as such is an affront and undermines the very Conventions.
You might find this article of interest:
Neal Katyal
Salient quote:
The 5-3 ruling came down overwhelmingly in favor of Hamdan and his legal team on June 29, 2006. The decision, written by Justice John Paul Stevens, found the military commissions were flawed primarily because the president acted unilaterally. But the Supreme Court struck down each of the administration’s arguments and said Common Article 3, a provision of the Geneva Conventions that guarantees troops a fair trial and protection from torture, applied to detainees at Guantanamo Bay.
| 390 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:52:01pm |
Fuck you!
/sorry, just jumping in to this thread.
So, how is everyone?
| 391 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:52:13pm |
sorry Lud...you have crashed on this one, same as your sycophants around you...liberals are poison in more than very moderate doses...I'm talkin to you
| 392 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:52:25pm |
re: #374 Killgore Trout
Pants? Never heard of it. What is pants?
Pssst, They're the things on your legs, above your shoes & socks...
///
| 393 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:52:31pm |
re: #380 LudwigVanQuixote
Yeah, we don't. That's why want to put those trying to destroy those foundations under ground, not in fancy schmancy federal courts under rights they don't have. Rights that have been fought for over centuries, paid for with blood, sweat and tears. Rights that make them HATE US.
KSM, Al-Qaeda, terrorists. Not those opposed to putting this fucker up.
| 395 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:52:44pm |
re: #380 LudwigVanQuixote
Then fuck you back sideways. This is America and we don't need idiots and craven fools destroying her foundations. You really don't see how your stupidity gives the terrorists a win do you?
So putting a foreign national who had a role in financing and planning the deadliest attack on American soil and who was captured overseas is basically advocating ripping up the Bill of Rights and using it for toilet paper.
Am I getting this right? Do you need to consult another John Stewart video before you answer?
| 396 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:52:47pm |
Evening lizards.
Is LGF really slow tonight or is it just me?
| 397 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:52:50pm |
re: #384 LudwigVanQuixote
Fair enough. Just remember you are also disagreeing with guys like Washington, Adams and Jefferson.
You honestly think these guys would have gotten this far with Washington, Adams and Jefferson?
I don't think so.
| 399 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:53:17pm |
re: #391 albusteve
sorry Lud...you have crashed on this one, same as your sycophants around you...liberals are poison in more than very moderate doses...I'm talkin to you
Why, when people who you think of as 'liberals' are criticizing him for his outburst, would you make a blanket statement about liberals being poison that is no better than what he just said?
Remember what I said about pants? They should stay on.
| 400 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:53:23pm |
re: #349 albusteve
why do you support the trials to be held in NYC as oppsred to tribunals at Gitmo?...and this other blabola will be taken in context if you answer the question
You have no reason for opposing the trials apart from the fact that they're happening under the Obama admin.
I'll start feeling a need to respond to your blabola (?) once you demonstrate any knowledge about the issue.
| 401 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:53:28pm |
re: #386 borgcube
And 9-11 was an attack on American soil. We don't need no stinkin' coalition in the case of KSM.
No we don't. We got him, we'll try him, and we'll give him what the judge
and jury prescribe.
| 402 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:53:42pm |
Fortunate indeed, are we old-time lizards, that our errors and evil may be pointed out to us by so many of our new friends and colleagues.
| 403 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:53:53pm |
...and it's moving too fast and too flamey for me to keep up. Back to work, see y'all in a while.
| 404 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:53:56pm |
re: #397 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
They definitely would have gotten this far with John Adams.
| 405 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:54:09pm |
re: #394 MandyManners
This thread has robbed me of a fat, four-hour nap I was planning on taking. Should have taken it.
| 406 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:54:19pm |
re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote
re: #357 lawhawk
Uhhh Huh, so then on what did we try the shoe bomber?
He got life in prison...
Where did we try the first batch of twin tower bombers?
You have got to be kidding.
You really are daft. The shoe bomber, Richard Reid, was arrested on US soil after trying to blow up the plane he was on. The 1993 WTC bombers were arrested on US soil by the FBI, not captured overseas by foreign forces or by the US military.
They are distinct differences, namely that the FBI carried out the arrests, up to and including Mirandizing the suspects.
Moreover, the Clinton Administration did not treat the terror threat as a true existential threat, even after the WTC bombing, the USS cole bombing, or the embassy bombings. They preferred to treat it as a law enforcement matter.
Obama wishes to bring it back to a law enforcement model, even though there are huge failings with that tactic, not the least of which is that law enforcement works best only after the terrorists strike, not before, and certainly not when the terrorists have significant weapons at their disposal.
| 407 |
MittDoesNotCompute Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:54:24pm |
re: #199 Jimmah
Looks like a typical comment from 2.0.
Whatever the tiff between you, ice, Matrix, and others is at this point in the thread, that comment of yours just ain't cool...
| 408 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:54:33pm |
re: #391 albusteve
sorry Lud...you have crashed on this one, same as your sycophants around you...liberals are poison in more than very moderate doses...I'm talkin to you
NO, so called conservatives who have no respect for American justice are poison. Just because you think you are as American as apple pie doesn't give you a pass to act like a jack booted thug.
| 409 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:55:03pm |
re: #400 iceweasel
I'm pretty CERTAIN we've clearly given multiple arguments for why we're opposed to it, and none of them have to do with Obama, ODS, Wingnut-syndrome, butthurt levels, or any of that other contrived nonsense.
| 410 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:55:12pm |
re: #399 Obdicut
Why, when people who you think of as 'liberals' are criticizing him for his outburst, would you make a blanket statement about liberals being poison that is no better than what he just said?
Remember what I said about pants? They should stay on.
whatever you are trying to say, consider this...you don't count with me, not yet
| 412 |
checked08 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:56:30pm |
| 413 |
Digital Display Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:56:33pm |
re: #406 lawhawk
If I ever need a good lawyer I'm calling you lawhawk...
| 414 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:56:46pm |
re: #263 Naso Tang
So far you have fooled me, but at least I am aware of the fact.
Are you testing me? We disagree and you upding me on the disagreements. Your style is interesting; or I am slow tonight.
| 415 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:57:17pm |
Well this explains the 30% raise in my insurance premiums...
Drug Makers Raise Prices in Face of Health Care Reform
Even as drug makers promise to support Washington’s health care overhaul by shaving $8 billion a year off the nation’s drug costs after the legislation takes effect, the industry has been raising its prices at the fastest rate in years.
In the last year, the industry has raised the wholesale prices of brand-name prescription drugs by about 9 percent, according to industry analysts. That will add more than $10 billion to the nation’s drug bill, which is on track to exceed $300 billion this year. By at least one analysis, it is the highest annual rate of inflation for drug prices since 1992.
Assholes.
| 416 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:57:30pm |
re: #71 TheMatrix31
Anyone who voted yes should be feel absolutely ashamed of themselves.
This is the problem we seem to be having on this one. I'm personally opposed because I think it's messy, sets a bad precedent, and is technically problematic. I don't think people who think it's a good idea are immoral. Maybe incorrect, but not immoral.
| 417 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:57:46pm |
re: #397 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
You honestly think these guys would have gotten this far with Washington, Adams and Jefferson?
I don't think so.
What? Adams defended the accused in the Boston Massacre.
Seriously -- Our founding fathers were bad ass and stuck to their principals.
| 418 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:58:16pm |
re: #400 iceweasel
You have no reason for opposing the trials apart from the fact that they're happening under the Obama admin.I'll start feeling a need to respond to your blabola (?) once you demonstrate any knowledge about the issue.
you really can do better than that with your towering intellect...where have you been?...you sound like a BO cheerleader...no reason, no reason rah rah rah!...please, keep posting tho...you and Jimmah are a riot
| 419 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:58:52pm |
re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote
Cripes you really are a tedious piece of shit, aren't you?
How about you try answering some of lawhawks questions? Or are you feeling embiggened by standing up to those lizards that are on teH RiGHt?
| 420 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:58:55pm |
re: #417 keithgabryelski
What? Adams defended the accused in the Boston Massacre.
Seriously -- Our founding fathers were bad ass and stuck to their principals.
Like the limited role of government in our lives.
| 421 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:59:07pm |
re: #416 SanFranciscoZionist
Ashamed because they're incorrect. Not immoral, it's not my place to say that much.
| 422 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:59:21pm |
re: #410 albusteve
whatever you are trying to say, consider this...you don't count with me, not yet
Nonsense. Obdicut's an expert. Why, on Day 1, his first day here, he correctly identified me as a liar, expressed profound disappointment over the level of discourse here, and generally called us all to account for the many ways in which the LGF crowd have failed to meet his very high standards.
| 423 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:59:22pm |
I find it interesting that so many who are quick to condemn the NeoCon idealism about spreading democracy are so quick to want to provide all the rights and protections of the Constitution of the United States to every person on the planet and then pick and choose crimes that are committed overseas against persons/property overseas and say that we are obligated to prosecute them (like the murder of Danny Pearl).
So I am now seeing the same idealist justifications that were offered for liberating Iraq are now given for handing KSM not only the the rights but the procedure that anyone situated in the US would get if s/he were accused of petty theft.
| 424 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:59:40pm |
re: #412 checked08
re: #252 reine.de.tout
Just got back from taking my dogs for a walk, and you're both right, I was wrong. Took the comments posted as someone who was just vehemently opposed to the President, and i was mistaken. I apologize.
Perhaps dog walking should be incorporated in to the LGF routine.
| 425 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:59:47pm |
re: #416 SanFranciscoZionist
This is the problem we seem to be having on this one. I'm personally opposed because I think it's messy, sets a bad precedent, and is technically problematic. I don't think people who think it's a good idea are immoral. Maybe incorrect, but not immoral.
Should the Boston Massacre accused have been tried on U.S. soil?
| 426 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:00:15pm |
re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote
NO, so called conservatives who have no respect for American justice are poison. Just because you think you are as American as apple pie doesn't give you a pass to act like a jack booted thug.
so the military tribunals are not American justice?...hahah!...just say it!...why do you keep beating around the Bush?...I'm not impressed
| 427 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:00:28pm |
re: #420 soxfan4life
Like the limited role of government in our lives.
which is a non-sequitur, but your point is taken.
Do you give me my point?
| 428 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:00:36pm |
re: #415 Killgore Trout
They're anticipating the huge changes to be imposed by the feds, and want to make sure that their costs get covered; even if it means that they're passed on to you.
It sucks bigtime, and bear in mind that Medicaid has fraudulently paid out $40+ billion, money that comes out of our pockets too.
| 429 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:00:41pm |
re: #416 SanFranciscoZionist
This is the problem we seem to be having on this one. I'm personally opposed because I think it's messy, sets a bad precedent, and is technically problematic. I don't think people who think it's a good idea are immoral. Maybe incorrect, but not immoral.
I am seldom one who calls stupidity immoral.
| 430 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:00:56pm |
re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote
Gosh, I leave for a couple of hours, and you've managed to dig a hole all the way to China. While you are there, as Obama about Cophenhagen.
| 431 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:01:39pm |
re: #407 talon_262
Whatever the tiff between you, ice, Matrix, and others is at this point in the thread, that comment of yours just ain't cool...
Wingnuts sound like - wingnuts. That's a fact, whether you think it's cool or not.
In other news, fire was discovered to be hot.
| 432 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:01:57pm |
re: #114 albusteve
why should this trial be held in NYC rather than Gitmo?...we all know about the rest, that's pretty obvious by now
Is it legally possible to hold a non-military trial at Gitmo?
Also, what are people's thoughts about the Moussaoui issue, raised above?
| 433 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:02:11pm |
re: #394 MandyManners
*throwing up hands and walking away*
While you are taking a break from the discussion, here is some background on Jodie Evan from an article in 2003.
...Evans rose to prominence via her role in Code Pink for Peace, a self-described “grassroots peace and social justice movement” formed just one year ago to organize public protests against America’s impending war in Iraq. Though its leaders benignly present themselves to the public as ordinary, concerned women who would simply rather “wage peace” than go to war, this group was in fact founded by
four experienced activists and hardcore communists – Jodie Evans, Medea Benjamin, Diane Wilson, and a radical Wiccan activist calling herself Starhawk. Code Pink works closely with United For Peace and Justice, whose leader Leslie Cagan is a longtime devotee of Fidel Castro and the Socialist Party USA.Another Code Pink ally is Medea Benjamin’s group Global Exchange, which has strong ties to the communist Workers World Party. Imbued with a deep hatred for the United States and capitalism in general, Benjamin is a pro-Castro activists who lived in Cuba (and was married to a Cuban) was a principal organizer of the 1999 Seattle riots in which some 50,000 protesters wreaked havoc and tried to shut down the World Trade Organization meetings.
[snip]
| 434 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:02:25pm |
re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote
Ludwig, cool it! You've got a real problem with people who disagree with you. You always try to make them into villains. That is both uncivil and wrong-headed. Stop it, now.
| 435 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:02:34pm |
re: #406 lawhawk
Yes, you nailed it!!! Time for me to logoff for now but-
This thread is just angering so many of us... Needlessly. The decision is done, time to wish our system well whether we agree with the decision or not. I'm out for dinner. Time for a beer break, and to calm my emotions. Pulling up the falling man link really got me. Bye for now!
| 436 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:02:46pm |
re: #415 Killgore Trout
Well this explains the 30% raise in my insurance premiums...
Drug Makers Raise Prices in Face of Health Care Reform
Assholes.
did you really think deals cut between BO and the med makers had you in mind?...you are just a little bitch in their plans...roll over...you cannot be serious
| 437 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:02:48pm |
re: #406 lawhawk
Nonsense. Utter nonsense.
We have tried people who committed crimes against Americans before - even if they were captured on foreign soil. You know that's true.
As to military tribunals, if the argument had been to give them a fair and speedy hearing and we had done it years ago, with adequate representation then sure. But you know full well that the Bush Administration had done significant shenanigans to put a question to any such proceedings.
The issue at stake ladies and gentlemen is if we as a republic live up to our ideals. It is not about the terrorists per se. It is about us being better than the terrorists. Either we walk the walk or we are nothing better than a nation like Russia or China.
| 438 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:02:57pm |
re: #425 keithgabryelski
Should the Boston Massacre accused have been tried on U.S. soil?
I dunno. Were they in uniform, acting in their capacity as members of the armed forces?
| 439 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:03:35pm |
re: #119 ArchangelMichael
Moussaoui was arrested in the United States by Law Enforcement officers, not by the US Military in a combat zone of a foreign nation. Drop the "afraid of trying him here" crap, that's not the issue.
Is that our sole issue then? They that makes the collar determines the courts? It's not a bad one, but some of the same issues raised as objections still stand.
| 440 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:03:47pm |
re: #432 SanFranciscoZionist
Zacarias Moussaoui committed his crimes in the Unitd States (like the 1993 first WTC attack), was arrested in the U.S. (Minnesota), etc., etc. It's not as if the military apprehended him in Afghanistan.
| 441 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:04:09pm |
re: #426 albusteve
so the military tribunals are not American justice?...hahah!...just say it!...why do you keep beating around the Bush?...I'm not impressed
You really can't read can you? Why not look at the ten times I've mentioned tribunals?
As to the rest, I am tired of the silly jingoistic hypocrisy. You do not save a village by destroying a village.
| 442 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:04:18pm |
re: #422 Guanxi88
Nonsense. Obdicut's an expert. Why, on Day 1, his first day here, he correctly identified me as a liar, expressed profound disappointment over the level of discourse here, and generally called us all to account for the many ways in which the LGF crowd have failed to meet his very high standards.
well than I submit...I'm an innocent hayseed
| 443 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:04:26pm |
re: #423 karmic_inquisitor
I find it interesting that so many who are quick to condemn the NeoCon idealism about spreading democracy are so quick to want to provide all the rights and protections of the Constitution of the United States to every person on the planet and then pick and choose crimes that are committed overseas against persons/property overseas and say that we are obligated to prosecute them (like the murder of Danny Pearl)..
You'll have to explain why this is interesting and what the analogy or parallel is or should be before I can know if I agree with you. Dammit.
| 444 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:05:07pm |
re: #441 LudwigVanQuixote
You really can't read can you? Why not look at the ten times I've mentioned tribunals?
As to the rest, I am tired of the silly jingoistic hypocrisy. You do not save a village by destroying a village.
"We are at war, and we will use every instrument of national power -- civilian, military, law enforcement, intelligence, diplomatic and others -- to win," he told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. "We need not cower in the face of this enemy. Our institutions are strong." (Eric Holder, Nov. 18th, 2009)
| 445 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:05:07pm |
re: #434 Dark_Falcon
Ludwig, cool it! You've got a real problem with people who disagree with you. You always try to make them into villains. That is both uncivil and wrong-headed. Stop it, now.
Excuse me, I am cool. I am getting jumped on for standing up for principles that anyone who really loved America would stand for too.
| 446 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:05:27pm |
re: #438 Guanxi88
I dunno. Were they in uniform, acting in their capacity as members of the armed forces?
They were, and they were tried in civilian court.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Gosh, i wish I could remember how to encode hyperlinks in the approved fashion, where is that cheat sheet?
I'd love it if Charles added a link button that did the proper formatting given "text" and "url".
| 447 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:05:31pm |
re: #443 iceweasel
You'll have to explain why this is interesting and what the analogy or parallel is or should be before I can know if I agree with you. Dammit.
Gee - I was hoping that you'd fill in the details.
/
| 448 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:05:39pm |
re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote
Excuse me, I am cool. I am getting jumped on for standing up for principles that anyone who really loved America would stand for too.
LOL.
| 449 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:05:55pm |
re: #437 LudwigVanQuixote
Switch around some key phrases and this could just as earliy be austin blue's pom-pom waving for cap and trade. Never mind the actual real-world consequences of what this will do...it's more important how other people feel about America...
| 450 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:06:01pm |
re: #437 LudwigVanQuixote
The issue at stake ladies and gentlemen is if we as a republic live up to our ideals. It is not about the terrorists per se. It is about us
BRAVO!
| 451 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:06:08pm |
re: #437 LudwigVanQuixote
For a combat soldier, the difference between success and failure is your ability to adapt to your enemy. The people that I deal with, they don't care about your rules, all they care about is the result. My job is to stop them from accomplishing their objectives. I simply adapted. To answer your question: am I above the law? No, sir. I am more than willing to be judged by the people you claim to represent, I will let them decide what price I should pay. But please do not sit there with that smug look on your face and expect me to regret the decisions that I have made because, sir, the truth is, I don't.
- Jack Bauer
| 452 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:06:33pm |
re: #446 keithgabryelski
They were, and they were tried in civilian court.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Gosh, i wish I could remember how to encode hyperlinks in the approved fashion, where is that cheat sheet?
I'd love it if Charles added a link button that did the proper formatting given "text" and "url".
Keith... it's on top of the edit box, the "two chain links."
| 453 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:06:33pm |
Well, at least it is 'cool' to be patriotic again.
| 454 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:06:33pm |
re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote
Excuse me, I am cool. I am getting jumped on for standing up for principles that anyone who really loved America would stand for too.
Awfully lonely up there, with only two thieves to keep you company, eh?
| 455 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:06:55pm |
| 456 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:07:10pm |
re: #437 LudwigVanQuixote
Ludwig, frankly, that's naive. It's also ignoring that we are NOT giving some of them trials. Is Barack Obama a North Korean now, according to you?
The US has done some awful, awful things in its time. We've supported dictators, we've segregated our populace-- after enslaving them.
But anyone who doesn't think that we've done far, far more good is an idiot. We're not saints, we're not a perfect union of angelic beings. We will screw up, and sometimes the screwups will be huge. We are human. We are allowed to. We are not allowed to become complacent about it.
Nobody here is complacent, nobody here wants an injustice to happen. These people are honestly saying that justice can be served adequately in a military tribunal and I would agree with that given that Holder thinks it adequate for others.
Now think about how many of your criticisms, in the terms you're making them, apply equally to Holder and Obama.
| 457 |
SteveC Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:07:19pm |
re: #387 Jimmah
A lot of people support an imaginary America, one that never existed except in their heads.
We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you,
Bob RumsonBarak Obama is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections.
| 458 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:07:52pm |
re: #446 keithgabryelski
They were, and they were tried in civilian court.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Gosh, i wish I could remember how to encode hyperlinks in the approved fashion, where is that cheat sheet?
I'd love it if Charles added a link button that did the proper formatting given "text" and "url".
Just above the comment box where you are typing your comments, to the right, there is a row of buttons - the last one is "link". Highlight the text you want to link, click the "link" button, paste the url, and you should be fine.
| 459 |
rurality Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:07:56pm |
re: #418 albusteve
why is intelligence so threatening? Why do the right cast aspersions on being well educated? More education tends to make people more liberal--is that why our finest institutions of higher education are suspect? Couldnt it just be that exposure to ideas, reason and critical thinking tend to broader a person's outlook. Is that "elitist"? I think it is much more elitist to claim a rigid and narrow, outlook, impervious to fact and reason, is the only way. That is truly condescending. As well as saying #399, you dont count with me...
| 460 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:07:58pm |
re: #426 albusteve
so the military tribunals are not American justice?...hahah!...just say it!...why do you keep beating around the Bush?...I'm not impressed
| 461 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:08:30pm |
re: #441 LudwigVanQuixote
You really can't read can you? Why not look at the ten times I've mentioned tribunals?
As to the rest, I am tired of the silly jingoistic hypocrisy. You do not save a village by destroying a village.
Oh pleesz mistur internet smart guyee...explaine to thiss jingoisitc dullard how putting KSM and other al Qaeda operatives captured overseas- and in some cases by foreign intelligence agencies- in front of military tribunals is taking a big steaming dump on the bill of rights. I'm just sooo slowe.
/Congrats on spelling 'jingoistic' this time around, BTW
| 462 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:08:42pm |
re: #370 soxfan4life
I say this with all due respect, fuck you.Just because I don't believe what you believe doesn't give you the juice to tell me to leave. Is anyone asking you to leave? I guess while giving the terrorist scum Constitutional protection you don't mind stepping on citizens First Amendment rights.
Ohhh whine... your first amendment rights to detain without trial and to torture?
Idiot.
| 464 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:09:03pm |
re: #425 keithgabryelski
Should the Boston Massacre accused have been tried on U.S. soil?
There was no US when the Boston Massacre too place
| 465 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:09:23pm |
re: #437 LudwigVanQuixote
You keep ignoring the fact that the Obama Administration is going ahead with tribunals. That's right; the same tribunal system that Bush finally got approved by Congress and the Courts. Why is that not an appropriate venue for all the detainees.
I can't be more blunt than that in asking the question you so studiously avoid answering.
If the Obama Administration is going ahead with tribunals, why do you have a problem with it? It's a lawful court, and all the issues you think you have with them are moot.
Moreover, these terrorists aren't merely engaging in crimes, but jihad - war against the US. They are not common criminals as even the Obama Administration admits when they say that there's no way KSM will ever see the light of day (or do you want to again ignore the Administration's statements on that).
| 466 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:09:27pm |
re: #454 Guanxi88
Awfully lonely up there, with only two thieves to keep you company, eh?
Took me a second to get that reference... very not cool.
| 467 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:09:29pm |
re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote
Excuse me, I am cool. I am getting jumped on for standing up for principles that anyone who really loved America would stand for too.
actually not. You are not being jumped on for the principles -- you have been jumped on for accusing others of being "like north korea" and "not loving their country".
Yes, others have attacked liberals in that way (even in this thread) but the predominate attacks are from you, right now -- thus the jumping.
| 468 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:09:40pm |
re: #364 Egregious Philbin
Quick note, Jim Robinson from Free Republic is publicly calling for secession from the USA.
Sure is one goofy world over there.
Holy shit.
| 469 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:09:40pm |
| 470 |
jaunte Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:09:49pm |
re: #456 Obdicut
Nobody here is complacent, nobody here wants an injustice to happen. These people are honestly saying that justice can be served adequately in a military tribunal and I would agree with that given that Holder thinks it adequate for others.
How the difference is determined between the two classes of prisoner is what I'm curious about.
| 472 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:10:22pm |
Dammit here we go again. I keep getting confused - are Republicans a bunch of dimwitted idiots? Or all they all greedy rich white capitalists? I forget.
| 473 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:10:37pm |
re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote
Excuse me, I am cool. I am getting jumped on for standing up for principles that anyone who really loved America would stand for too.
LVQ - people can agree on the principles, while disagreeing on the methods. I think you're assuming that your chosen method is the ONLY one that ensures the principles remain intact.
| 474 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:10:56pm |
re: #466 LudwigVanQuixote
Took me a second to get that reference... very not cool.
Hey, you're the one getting martyred by those who know not what they do.
| 475 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:11:04pm |
re: #466 LudwigVanQuixote
Took me a second to get that reference... very not cool.
Wow...somebody's pretty thin-skinned.
| 476 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:11:17pm |
re: #452 Walter L. Newton
Keith... it's on top of the edit box, the "two chain links."
i can be sooo dense sometimes.
thank you to those that replied -- can I get these messages deleted from the thread?
| 477 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:11:26pm |
re: #451 TheMatrix31
what
| 478 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:11:57pm |
re: #466 LudwigVanQuixote
Took me a second to get that reference... very not cool.
Why, you don't respect anyone else... big whoop.
| 479 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:12:05pm |
re: #476 keithgabryelski
Dude I thought you were joking.
I'm sorry, but for perhaps the third time in my internet history, I have actually Laughed Out Loud.
| 480 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:12:14pm |
re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote
Excuse me, I am cool. I am getting jumped on for standing up for principles that anyone who really loved America would stand for too.
Damnre: #451 TheMatrix31
For a combat soldier, the difference between success and failure is your ability to adapt to your enemy. The people that I deal with, they don't care about your rules, all they care about is the result. My job is to stop them from accomplishing their objectives. I simply adapted. To answer your question: am I above the law? No, sir. I am more than willing to be judged by the people you claim to represent, I will let them decide what price I should pay. But please do not sit there with that smug look on your face and expect me to regret the decisions that I have made because, sir, the truth is, I don't.
- Jack Bauer
You are aware that Jack Bauer is FICTIONAL, right?
| 482 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:12:27pm |
re: #472 Racer X
Dammit here we go again. I keep getting confused - are Republicans a bunch of dimwitted idiots? Or all they all greedy rich white capitalists? I forget.
Yes.
LOL!
| 483 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:12:32pm |
re: #441 LudwigVanQuixote
You really can't read can you? Why not look at the ten times I've mentioned tribunals?
As to the rest, I am tired of the silly jingoistic hypocrisy. You do not save a village by destroying a village.
To disparage a debate on how to deal with enemies, as opposed to common criminals, by applying classic communist labels like "jingoistic" in conjunction with the implication of generic accusation like "destroying villages" is not up to your usual command of rationality.
| 484 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:12:40pm |
re: #433 NJDhockeyfan
Yeah, Medea Benjamin and Mark Lloyd really don't like Capitalism when it comes to the media.
Media Reform and Social Change
Speakers:
Amalia Anderson, Deepa Fernandes, Mark Lloyd, Medea Benjamin
Communication and access to technology are central to the success of all social change efforts. Media have the power to spark social change movements or to marginalize them. In this conversation, accomplished leaders in movements for human rights and social justice issues share their experiences and discuss why they prioritize media reform in their work. What impact do media policies have on social change movements? What kind of infrastructure, ownership and access to media are necessary for communities to win their quest for justice?
| 485 |
_RememberTonyC Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:12:55pm |
I feel that trying these guys in NY is a mistake. But setting the emotion of the issue aside, I think trying them anywhere on the mainland is probably a mistake. But while many of us are certain that WE know why it's a good or bad idea, we really won't know for sure until it happens.
My concerns have more to do with issues that aren't being discussed very much in this thread. I feel KSM, et al would get a fair trial in a military court. I TRUST THE MILITARY JUSTICE SYSTEM, and feel that those who are against military tribunals probably DON'T TRUST THE MILITARY to be fair. As for Holder and his boss, I have no idea what their agenda is. Maybe they're 100% in the right. Or maybe they're naive. But they are saying that KSM's conviction is a slam dunk. And that sounds prejudicial to me and I expect the lawyers for KSM to use that against the prosecution. I see a cluster fuck of a trial in the future with many unknown consequences, few of them positive. But hopefully a man who confessed to planning 3000 murders will be dealt the justice he and WE deserve.
| 486 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:13:42pm |
re: #483 Naso Tang
To disparage a debate on how to deal with enemies, as opposed to common criminals, by applying classic communist labels like "jingoistic" in conjunction with the implication of generic accusation like "destroying villages" is not up to your usual command of rationality.
Boy, you got that wrong in about 6 different ways :)
| 487 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:14:36pm |
re: #477 WindUpBird
I was responding to Ludwig's bullshit about how we need to stay by our morals and stuff in his #437.
The point of my posting that quote being that they dont CARE about our rules.
| 488 |
simoom Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:14:46pm |
re: #364 Egregious Philbin
Quick note, Jim Robinson from Free Republic is publicly calling for secession from the USA.
Sure is one goofy world over there.
Good catch -- he's completely jumped the shark there (not saying he hadn't already):
Overthrowing the Constitution is what Pelosi, Reid, Obama, et al have in mind. If we allow this tyranny to stand that’s exactly what they will have accomplished.Resistance to tyranny is defense of the constitution! Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God!!
Patrick Henry would have it no other way! Give me Liberty or give me Death!!
...
God bless Texas!!
...
Should this constitution nullifying bill become the law of the land, then this government will have become destructive of these ends! God help us all, but this tyranny cannot be allowed to stand!!
by Jim Robinson (Join the TEA Party Rebellion!! God save this great Republic!!)
| 489 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:15:01pm |
re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote
Excuse me, I am cool. I am getting jumped on for standing up for principles that anyone who really loved America would stand for too.
And here we have the two valued fallacy. I favor tribunals for security reasons, but that does not mean I love tyrants.
| 490 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:15:24pm |
re: #480 iceweasel
You do know that the point still rings true, right?
| 491 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:15:26pm |
re: #484 MandyManners
Who is Mark Lloyd? Why, he's BHO's special snowflake at the FCC.
[Link: www.fcc.gov...]
[Link: www.freepress.net...]
[Link: www.lunch.com...]
[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]
Praise for Chavez
[Link: www.rushlimbaugh.com...]
SNIP
Do some digging on Andeson and Fernades. One was a propagandist for Castro.
| 492 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:15:36pm |
re: #487 TheMatrix31
I was responding to Ludwig's bullshit about how we need to stay by our morals and stuff in his #437.
The point of my posting that quote being that they dont CARE about our rules.
But we must, or we become like them.
| 493 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:16:28pm |
re: #489 Dark_Falcon
And here we have the two valued fallacy. I favor tribunals for security reasons, but that does not mean I love tyrants.
No, LVQ's pretty sure that disagreement with his position is love of tyranny.
| 494 |
jaunte Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:16:29pm |
re: #488 simoom
Note to Jim Robinson:
1. Texas will never secede.
3. Lay off the mushrooms.
| 495 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:16:37pm |
re: #462 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohhh whine... your first amendment rights to detain without trial and to torture?
Idiot.
Fuck you again. Asswipe
| 496 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:16:38pm |
re: #492 Decatur Deb
No, we don't.
We do not devolve into being like them by not allowing them protection under laws that they have ABSOLUTELY NO CLAIM TO.
| 497 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:16:42pm |
re: #441 LudwigVanQuixote
You really can't read can you? Why not look at the ten times I've mentioned tribunals?
As to the rest, I am tired of the silly jingoistic hypocrisy. You do not save a village by destroying a village.
yes I can read, I also read minds...your's is corrupt Lud, you are no better a man than anyone else...your brainpower is the engine that drives you down the road of hubris...the fact that you cannot deal with disagreement speaks volumes toward your superiority complex...yet I'm a stiff and I'm not in the least intimidated by your lofty words...maybe in your world a man is measured by his vocabulary, his degrees and his elevated position among his peers...in my world a man is measured by his good will...his choices that led to solutions and of course, just for you, how many women he's fucked and bears he's killed...you don't intimidate me Lug with your degrees and your science and your self elevated status...remember that next time you suggest I throw in with the Norks...what a dumbass you've turned out to be
| 498 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:17:00pm |
To you flag waving patriots who really can't seem to understand what it at stake, let me make it simple.
If you tear down our principles you tear down our nation. That is all we are really as a nation. We do not share a common ancestry. We do not share common backgrounds, but we do share the principles of the rule of law and that a republic can be sound and fair and protect the rights of all.
We do not detain for years on end without representation or a fair hearing. That was one of the things we fought a revolution over.
We do not torture - well that was something established a very long time ago- but we strayed from it to our dishonor.
We don't need the terrorists to take apart America. All we need are people who fear more than they think running America. All we need are the jingoistic fools who follow them blindly.
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
| 499 |
Gearhead Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:17:24pm |
re: #472 Racer X
Dammit here we go again. I keep getting confused - are Republicans a bunch of dimwitted idiots? Or all they all greedy rich white capitalists? I forget.
Both. I'm one of the dimwitted idiots. We have lunch with the greedy white capitalists on Wednesdays.
...and they keep sticking me with the tab.
| 500 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:17:58pm |
re: #485 _RememberTonyC
Don't forget the 0bama Admin using this as an opportunity to send money and jobs to the President's home state!
Cronyism? I don't see any cronysim in all this///
| 501 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:18:00pm |
re: #489 Dark_Falcon
And here we have the two valued fallacy. I favor tribunals for security reasons, but that does not mean I love tyrants.
And I have not written against tribunals per se. G-d how many times do I have to keep re-writing that?
| 502 |
JoyousMN Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:18:09pm |
re: #333 iceweasel
Agreed. It's why I voted yes.
We are the strongest country in the world. Part of our strength comes from being a "Nation of laws, not men." Which I understand to mean no one is above the law.
I have confidence in our country and I'm not afraid of those scum who murdered our citizens. I want them to see justice served.
(Why do I now hear this in my head? LOL) "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I'm The Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you." --Jules (Pulp Fiction)
| 503 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:18:12pm |
re: #466 LudwigVanQuixote
Took me a second to get that reference... very not cool.
I appreciate the guidance for acceptable debate. Jingoistic enemies of liberty, such as myself, are in need of such assistance and support as our betters condescend to provide our unworthy selves.
| 504 |
MittDoesNotCompute Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:18:16pm |
re: #353 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually John Stewart says it pretty well.
[Link: www.hulu.com...]
I am really tired of the phony whining of the right, that we might actually live up to the ideals we are supposed to.
Get this straight.
The United Sates is a nation of laws. We stand for those things. Those laws are what gives us the liberties we hold dear.
To those of you who fear actually applying the law, you should find a different country with different values.
The North Koreans think like you do too.
You really know how to flatter people, don't you?
/f**king jackass...
| 505 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:18:18pm |
re: #178 brookly red
the terrorists are laughing at us, that is all.
Let them laugh.
Whatever we do, why ever we do it, let it not be for fear of this scum laughing at us. And let us do nothing against out own beliefs because we think this is a worse enemy than we have ever faced.
We took down the Nazis. We took down the Japanese Empire.
These guys ain't shit.
Just saying.
| 506 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:18:26pm |
re: #478 Walter L. Newton
Why, you don't respect anyone else... big whoop.
Walter, you are the most astonishing little nit. You didn't have anything substantive to say in the last thread and you have less to say now.
| 507 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:18:33pm |
re: #486 Walter L. Newton
Boy, you got that wrong in about 6 different ways :)
Only the rights count.
| 508 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:19:12pm |
| 509 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:19:18pm |
re: #487 TheMatrix31
If we're going to use the fictional charachter allegory- you think that Jack Bauer should be fighting this war- others think Jack McCoy should be the one doing the fighting...in a manhattan courtoroom.
| 510 |
Egregious Philbin Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:19:24pm |
re: #488 simoom
Well, old JR is in bad shape physically, and mentally, he has been gone for a while. The site ran off anyone with any scientific knowledge, or anyone who may dare to like Guiliani or Romney, or anyone else that isn't Palin.
Its quite a lunatic bin over there. Will be interesting to see what happens when JR is gone.
| 511 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:19:33pm |
re: #504 talon_262
You really know how to flatter people, don't you?
/f**king jackass...
Well the North Koreans incarcerate for years with no hope of a fair hearing and they torture.
If you think that's OK then be brave enough to stick to your guns.
We Americans though don't like that behavior.
| 512 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:19:38pm |
re: #498 LudwigVanQuixote
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
That's bad news... for Obama.
Nothing else to say at this point, dude, other than: nice meltdown.
We've strayed from our principles again and again since our inception. There was no clear road back from this last stray. We're muddling along, attempting justice and propriety and sometimes there's no easy answer. And that's not rationalization, that's basically the second law of thermodynamics and the incompleteness of any system.
And that we're human.
| 513 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:20:12pm |
re: #498 LudwigVanQuixote
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
See you tomorrow, hopefully. That ain't cool.
| 514 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:20:24pm |
re: #443 iceweasel
You'll have to explain why this is interesting and what the analogy or parallel is or should be before I can know if I agree with you. Dammit.
Seriously, I saw your "This shows we are better than them" and it got me thinking back to the idealism that I shared at the time about liberating Iraqis not only from Saddam but from the oil ticks and religious zealots in the neighborhood as well. I thought back to making a very moral case for liberating others a la JFK and would run into people who'd argue that "we don't owe it to them" or "they should liberate themselves" and a whole bunch of practical justifications that don't meet the standard of the ideal. And - yes - I'd get the "just bomb them all and make a glass parking lot" counters which were mind numbing.
I would come back to them all with "we have to demonstrate how lawful society works" and "show them the power of a democracy and pluralism" and make the appeal that we were given a great gift from people who came from all over the world for a better life and created a pluralistic industrial democracy that even managed to defang Europe.
Law is based on ideals, but its application is really about fairness and consistency and not about justice. Justice occurs much of the time but not always. The jsutice system here is imperfect and most people working in it admit it but value the predictable application of the law over passionate demands for justice.
The KSM case is thorny. People are going to learn a lot about criminal procedure and they are going to get frustrated when this trial and its appeals go on for years. They are going to learn that our justice system is not perfect.
| 515 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:20:29pm |
re: #498 LudwigVanQuixote
They dont LAY CLAIM to these principles!
WE are the ones who have fought for them.
THEY are the ones who have plotted to destroy them.
THEY CANNOT REAP THE BENEFITS!
| 516 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:20:33pm |
re: #498 LudwigVanQuixote
To you flag waving patriots who really can't seem to understand what it at stake, let me make it simple.
If you tear down our principles you tear down our nation. That is all we are really as a nation. We do not share a common ancestry. We do not share common backgrounds, but we do share the principles of the rule of law and that a republic can be sound and fair and protect the rights of all.
We do not detain for years on end without representation or a fair hearing. That was one of the things we fought a revolution over.
We do not torture - well that was something established a very long time ago- but we strayed from it to our dishonor.
We don't need the terrorists to take apart America. All we need are people who fear more than they think running America. All we need are the jingoistic fools who follow them blindly.
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
No Ludwig, You are pathetic and my suggestion is that you listen to what I am saying about you, and focus on you and I.
Honestly, you display absolutely zero professionalism in your manner and approach to debating a issue. You would make Newton and Liebniz ashamed, and they were master debaters and so very capable of making stating their science without taking it to the level of malice.
Pay close attention, you show malice toward you fellow man, you actually have a hate, a hatred of anyone who doesn't see things the way you do, doesn't parrot back the science the way you do or value the same things you do.
I will actually suggest that you go back to Talmud, go back to the writing of the Rebbe's, look over the commentaries and learn something about wisdom.
I wish only good for you, but you have to start finding a little love for those who don't see things the way you do. Otherwise, you are going to grow up to be a very lonely old man.
| 517 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:20:46pm |
re: #509 Fenway_Nation
Only if McCoy's got Abbie Carmichael as ADA.
| 518 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:20:56pm |
re: #505 SanFranciscoZionist
Let them laugh.
Whatever we do, why ever we do it, let it not be for fear of this scum laughing at us. And let us do nothing against out own beliefs because we think this is a worse enemy than we have ever faced.
We took down the Nazis. We took down the Japanese Empire.
These guys ain't shit.
Just saying.
We didn't take them down in a jury trial IIRC
| 519 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:21:08pm |
re: #498 LudwigVanQuixote
To you flag waving patriots who really can't seem to understand what it at stake, let me make it simple.
If you tear down our principles you tear down our nation. That is all we are really as a nation. We do not share a common ancestry. We do not share common backgrounds, but we do share the principles of the rule of law and that a republic can be sound and fair and protect the rights of all.
We do not detain for years on end without representation or a fair hearing. That was one of the things we fought a revolution over.
We do not torture - well that was something established a very long time ago- but we strayed from it to our dishonor.
We don't need the terrorists to take apart America. All we need are people who fear more than they think running America. All we need are the jingoistic fools who follow them blindly.
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
Quoted for TRUTH! Rock on LVQ! Gorgeousness and gorgeousity!
| 520 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:21:15pm |
re: #498 LudwigVanQuixote
To you flag waving patriots who really can't seem to understand what it at stake, let me make it simple.
If you tear down our principles you tear down our nation. That is all we are really as a nation. We do not share a common ancestry. We do not share common backgrounds, but we do share the principles of the rule of law and that a republic can be sound and fair and protect the rights of all.
We do not detain for years on end without representation or a fair hearing. That was one of the things we fought a revolution over.
We do not torture - well that was something established a very long time ago- but we strayed from it to our dishonor.
We don't need the terrorists to take apart America. All we need are people who fear more than they think running America. All we need are the jingoistic fools who follow them blindly.
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
Thank you for honoring our low and pathetic persons with the shining wisdom, keen moral insight, and shrewd ratiocination that has marked your discussion in this thread, your comments from which will undoubtedly appear in future textbooks of ethics, law, and history as sterling examples of adherence to principle in the face of overwhelming and unfathomable evil.
| 521 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:21:31pm |
re: #401 Decatur Deb
KSM was all for that. Could have ended this a long time ago. In circles we go. I promise to come back here and tell you I told you so when this implodes/explodes all over our collective wussie faces. To think that anyone, let alone the 20% insane 7th century primitive Islamic world is going to look at us more favorably after this debacle is beyond naive. There's a political game going on here by the Obama administration. Not sure what it is yet, but there's no other explanation for this.
| 522 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:21:55pm |
| 523 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:22:31pm |
Good night all. Enough juice for one night.
| 525 |
_RememberTonyC Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:23:09pm |
re: #498 LudwigVanQuixote
To you flag waving patriots who really can't seem to understand what it at stake, let me make it simple.
If you tear down our principles you tear down our nation. That is all we are really as a nation. We do not share a common ancestry. We do not share common backgrounds, but we do share the principles of the rule of law and that a republic can be sound and fair and protect the rights of all.
We do not detain for years on end without representation or a fair hearing. That was one of the things we fought a revolution over.
We do not torture - well that was something established a very long time ago- but we strayed from it to our dishonor.
We don't need the terrorists to take apart America. All we need are people who fear more than they think running America. All we need are the jingoistic fools who follow them blindly.
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
a glass of warm milk seems in order ...
| 526 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:23:11pm |
| 527 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:23:14pm |
Wow!
I'm seeing how some of our more liberal friends really view those a little farther to the right then they are. It is not pretty.
I won't forget.
| 528 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:23:18pm |
re: #517 lawhawk
Only if McCoy's got Abbie Carmichael as ADA.
I vote for "Claire", and propose an LGF poll.
| 529 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:23:20pm |
re: #415 Killgore Trout
And credit card companies are drastically raising rates even for good credit worthy customers. This is what you get when the government starts to "fix" everything. Enjoy.
| 531 |
jaunte Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:23:22pm |
Talking of principles, I'm still wondering what principle has been articulated which separates the prisoner worthy of criminal trial from the prisoner destined for trial before a military tribunal.
| 532 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:23:38pm |
Eric Holder should be tried for this travesty.
Actually, Obama could stop it or overrule him if he wanted.
There is no actual constitutional provision for the Attorney General, and the chief law enforcement officer of the United States is actually the President. That the position is now Cabinet level is accepted, but anyone who says that Holder can't be overruled in this is wrong.
| 533 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:23:51pm |
| 534 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:24:01pm |
re: #519 iceweasel
Quoted for TRUTH! Rock on LVQ! Gorgeousness and gorgeousity!
[Video]
shit attracts flies...proof
| 535 |
SteveC Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:24:20pm |
re: #496 TheMatrix31
No, we don't.
We do not devolve into being like them by not allowing them protection under laws that they have ABSOLUTELY NO CLAIM TO.
I don't know if this has been mentioned upthread, but if this goes to trial in open court either A) the prosecution is going to be severely handcuffed by their inability to use classified information; or B) the classified information will be used, in open court and with the rules of discovery in place, and al-Queda and anyone else who cares to pay attention will eat our lunch in the intelligence field for years to come.
Guilty, innocent, hung jury, or mistrial, it doesn't really matter. In the long run the USA loses.
| 536 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:24:21pm |
re: #518 brookly red
We didn't take them down in a jury trial IIRC
We can take them down by piling on the indictment counts. Charge KSM with 3000x3000 counts of 1st degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, manslaughter, violation of civil rights, hate crime, sexual harassment, illegal immigration, prostitution, parking violations, and some of it has to stick.
That's how they took down that Jew Rubashkin in Iowa.
/
| 537 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:25:08pm |
re: #527 Racer X
Wow!
I'm seeing how some of our more liberal friends really view those a little farther to the right then they are. It is not pretty.
I won't forget.
I hate to break this to you but that whole fair and speedy trial thing coupled with a notion of innocent until proven guilty with a large dose of not torturing, are very liberal values indeed. Liberal for 1776.
Pity so few here care about what America is actually about.
| 538 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:25:31pm |
re: #509 Fenway_Nation
Jack Bauer could have prevented this war.///
| 539 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:25:33pm |
re: #511 LudwigVanQuixote
Well the North Koreans incarcerate for years with no hope of a fair hearing and they torture.
If you think that's OK then be brave enough to stick to your guns.
We Americans though don't like that behavior.
Excellent. LVQ is now in the American-identifying business. Blessed indeed is the nation which can boast one of his excellent character and discernment.
No one here has suggested that support for federal trials equates to support of al-Qaeda, but you were able to see that opposition to it is in fact profoundly un-American. Whether it is evil of the North Korean or some other variety has not yet been definitively established, but I do not doubt, before the night is out, you'll find an answer for us.
When last you favored this lowly bigot with your wisdom and beneficence, you were so kind as to suggest that I advocated PRC's version of "justice." I know I presume too much, but might it perhaps please Your Grace to once more throw this monstrous insult at me and any others present?
| 540 |
MittDoesNotCompute Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:25:47pm |
re: #416 SanFranciscoZionist
This is the problem we seem to be having on this one. I'm personally opposed because I think it's messy, sets a bad precedent, and is technically problematic. I don't think people who think it's a good idea are immoral. Maybe incorrect, but not immoral.
Couldn't have said it better myself...
| 543 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:25:57pm |
re: #530 TheMatrix31
Get off your high horse too.
Let me point you to your message of "#71"...
high horse, indeed.
| 545 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:26:11pm |
re: #536 Alouette
Any estimates of the financial hit we're going to take from these show trials?
Because it's gonna be a huge one.
| 546 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:26:24pm |
re: #533 Walter L. Newton
I see you did!
Walter you can keep repeating yourself as much as you want. If you didn't say anything meaningful the first time, it doesn't get more meaningful with reposting.
How about you make an argument for how detaining people without trial is an American principle?
Try it idiot.
| 547 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:27:38pm |
| 548 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:27:56pm |
| 549 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:28:04pm |
re: #531 jaunte
I keep asking that myself -- and thus far, no answers.
| 550 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:28:13pm |
re: #521 borgcube
KSM was all for that. Could have ended this a long time ago. In circles we go. I promise to come back here and tell you I told you so when this implodes/explodes all over our collective wussie faces. To think that anyone, let alone the 20% insane 7th century primitive Islamic world is going to look at us more favorably after this debacle is beyond naive. There's a political game going on here by the Obama administration. Not sure what it is yet, but there's no other explanation for this.
I'm having a hard time keeping track. The trials might get messy, but we'll work through. I'm more interested in how our kids think of us than the rest of the world. Your "political" point is a given, nothing flows out of DC but politics and soiled toilet paper.
| 551 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:28:28pm |
re: #546 LudwigVanQuixote
Walter you can keep repeating yourself as much as you want. If you didn't say anything meaningful the first time, it doesn't get more meaningful with reposting.
How about you make an argument for how detaining people without trial is an American principle?
Try it idiot.
In regards to reposting, I learned from the expert. You. Thanks for the compliment.
| 552 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:28:39pm |
re: #537 LudwigVanQuixote
I've mentioned this to you before: It's not your message that people find offensive. It's how you communicate it.
Frankly I'm more than a little shocked at some of your comments upthread. I thought you were better than that.
| 553 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:28:45pm |
re: #543 keithgabryelski
I have since come off it. Fat chance of those people doing so.
| 554 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:28:51pm |
re: #546 LudwigVanQuixote
How bout those Japanese internment camps, American principles be damned.
| 555 |
SteveC Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:28:59pm |
re: #541 TheMatrix31
Yes, it has definitely been mentioned.
My apologies, then. I got here late and the thread is moving like a freight train!
| 556 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:29:03pm |
re: #291 ausador
Isn't that what was happening with him at Gitmo? I would have been happy with him staying there forever and never seen nor heard from him again. More happy had he been executed promptly, but I'd take your idea. But that's not going to happen now is it? You see, your solution and mine were far too diabolical for this extreme left administration of wussie wusses.
| 557 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:29:05pm |
re: #515 TheMatrix31
They dont LAY CLAIM to these principles!
WE are the ones who have fought for them.
THEY are the ones who have plotted to destroy them.
THEY CANNOT REAP THE BENEFITS!
Then don't tear them down asshole.
| 558 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:29:25pm |
| 559 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:29:31pm |
re: #544 iceweasel
Always so quick to dish it out but can't accept it huh?
| 560 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:29:43pm |
re: #546 LudwigVanQuixote
(detaining people wihout trial is something which Obama himself has said is necessary for the "worst of the worst." )
| 561 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:29:49pm |
re: #546 LudwigVanQuixote
Walter you can keep repeating yourself as much as you want. If you didn't say anything meaningful the first time, it doesn't get more meaningful with reposting.
How about you make an argument for how detaining people without trial is an American principle?
Try it idiot.
I can: The men in question are unlawful enemy combatants. As such, they may be lawfully detained until the conflict ends. Period.
| 562 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:29:50pm |
re: #554 soxfan4life
How bout those Japanese internment camps, American principles be damned.
Utterly immoral and wrong. The only people with the crazy strong enough to defend them are idiots like Malkin.
| 563 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:29:55pm |
re: #552 Racer X
I've mentioned this to you before: It's not your message that people find offensive. It's how you communicate it.
Frankly I'm more than a little shocked at some of your comments upthread. I thought you were better than that.
I didn't, but then again, I have no taste.
| 564 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:30:10pm |
re: #534 albusteve
shit attracts flies...proof
Maybe we should give up on the arguments and just start calling people like you 'shit' etc, but no, that would be dumb - we'll leave that sort of thing to you.
| 565 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:30:12pm |
re: #560 J.S.
(detaining people wihout trial is something which Obama himself has said is necessary for the "worst of the worst." )
And he is wrong too.
| 567 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:30:18pm |
Ludwig come back!
Ludwig Come baaack!
heh
a poor 'Shane' riff
| 568 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:30:42pm |
I must have missed the response to Lawhawk's question. Can someone post it?
| 570 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:31:18pm |
re: #562 LudwigVanQuixote
Utterly immoral and wrong. The only people with the crazy strong enough to defend them are idiots like Malkin.
Was Malkin around during WW2? Seems Americans, at least the ones you seem to despise didn't have too much of a problem with them. Different day and age.
| 571 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:31:23pm |
re: #558 Walter L. Newton
Come on Ice, this is not a sewing party.
pass the off white thread, butthead!
| 572 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:31:28pm |
re: #558 Walter L. Newton
Come on Ice, this is not a sewing party.
No, what it is is a train wreck thread. Fenway, do you have any train wreck picture that could sum this thread up?
| 573 |
goddamnedfrank Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:31:29pm |
re: #532 tradewind
Eric Holder should be tried for this travesty.
Actually, Obama could stop it or overrule him if he wanted.
There is no actual constitutional provision for the Attorney General, and the chief law enforcement officer of the United States is actually the President. That the position is now Cabinet level is accepted, but anyone who says that Holder can't be overruled in this is wrong.
Exactly, just ask Cox, Richardson, & Ruckelshaus.
| 574 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:31:39pm |
re: #565 LudwigVanQuixote
The President of the United States, Harvard graduate and law scholar?
| 575 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:31:49pm |
re: #566 TheMatrix31
Fuck off.
No fuck you back. I am an American. I stand for American liberties. You do not. You are a sick little closet fascist and you deserve all the derision in the world with the rest of those who hate our principles.
| 576 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:32:00pm |
re: #498 LudwigVanQuixote
Damnit LVQ - can you calm down?
Much of the problem with trying a foreign combatant in a civilian trial court comes down to procedure.
Procedure implements many of the protections for the accused that you think that you are the only one defending.
The procedure assumes civilian criminal cases. This is not a civilian criminal case.
the NYPD did not fly over to Afghanistan, ask questions, do some CSI shit and then arrest some bad guys. Nor did the FBI. The FBI DID to that in the embassy bombings and the Khobar towers. I know one of the agents that was on both of those investigations. He told me yesterday that he is afraid KSM will walk.
Now if KSM walks because he was put in a system that assumes all sorts of things that simply don't apply on a battlefield, will justice have been served? Will our country be better for it? Will our ideals shine as a beacon to the world?
If you think that is a facetious set of questions then you are assuming KSMs guilt and have already violated the ideals that you are defending.
| 577 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:32:02pm |
re: #565 LudwigVanQuixote
And he is wrong too.
Excluding you, is anyone right on this other than you?
| 578 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:32:15pm |
re: #562 LudwigVanQuixote
Utterly immoral and wrong. The only people with the crazy strong enough to defend them are idiots like Malkin.
Holder said he knows "we are at war with a vicious enemy who targets our soldiers on the battlefield in Afghanistan and our civilians on the streets here at home. ... Those who suggest otherwise are simply wrong."
| 579 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:32:22pm |
re: #570 soxfan4life
Was Malkin around during WW2? Seems Americans, at least the ones you seem to despise didn't have too much of a problem with them. Different day and age.
Yeah that was a great age to not be white in...
///
| 580 |
MittDoesNotCompute Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:32:29pm |
re: #456 Obdicut
Ludwig, frankly, that's naive. It's also ignoring that we are NOT giving some of them trials. Is Barack Obama a North Korean now, according to you?
The US has done some awful, awful things in its time. We've supported dictators, we've segregated our populace-- after enslaving them.
But anyone who doesn't think that we've done far, far more good is an idiot. We're not saints, we're not a perfect union of angelic beings. We will screw up, and sometimes the screwups will be huge. We are human. We are allowed to. We are not allowed to become complacent about it.
Nobody here is complacent, nobody here wants an injustice to happen. These people are honestly saying that justice can be served adequately in a military tribunal and I would agree with that given that Holder thinks it adequate for others.
Now think about how many of your criticisms, in the terms you're making them, apply equally to Holder and Obama.
Well said...
| 581 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:32:39pm |
re: #548 albusteve
too bad...you don't count
Then it should be easy for you to avoid addressing me. Again. Like you have been all day.
Later!
| 582 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:32:45pm |
re: #577 Guanxi88
Excluding you, is anyone right on this other than you?
Yeah people who care about being a nation of laws.
| 583 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:32:47pm |
re: #537 LudwigVanQuixote
I hate to break this to you but that whole fair and speedy trial thing coupled with a notion of innocent until proven guilty with a large dose of not torturing, are very liberal values indeed. Liberal for 1776.
Pity so few here care about what America is actually about.
So the bill of rights extends to foreign nationals planning and financing mass casualty terrorist attacks against the USA and other nations even when they're captured by foreign intelligence agencies? Should the Pakistani ISI have mirandized KSM?
If you have a moment where you could pull yourself away from your smug, sanctimnious 'I am teH smar' histrionics, I'd appreciate an answer.
| 584 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:33:42pm |
re: #562 LudwigVanQuixote
Was the nation, then, during WWII, utterly immoral and wrong? Were they no better than the Nazi's?
It's the Constitution. It's not the Holy Bible. It doesn't stop us from being human, and getting ourselves into jacked up situations where there literally is no pure road out of it.
| 585 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:33:56pm |
re: #564 Jimmah
Maybe we should give up on the arguments and just start calling people like you 'shit' etc, but no, that would be dumb - we'll leave that sort of thing to you.
I could care less Jimmah...do you reject the notion that shit attracts flies...much to you dumbfoundedness I don't give a damn what you or Iceweasel think of me...are you dense?
| 586 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:34:06pm |
re: #577 Guanxi88
Excluding you, is anyone right on this other than you?
The people who entirely agree with him.
Ludwig is a very smart and very passionate man, but sometimes that passion gets the better of him. This is one of those times.
| 587 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:34:19pm |
re: #559 TheMatrix31
Always so quick to dish it out but can't accept it huh?
Except that iceweasel doesn't go around calling people things like "shit" and snarling "fuck you" etc. That seems to be the favourite hobby of the wingnuts here.
| 589 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:34:30pm |
re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote
No fuck you back. I am an American. I stand for American liberties. You do not. You are a sick little closet fascist and you deserve all the derision in the world with the rest of those who hate our principles.
Dew from heaven, these words! Why, oh sage, do you cast your pearls before such swine as our lowly and evil selves. Ought not Your Grace, rather than refute the howling rabble, hopelessly sunk in our ignorance and evil, instead congratulate himself until he goes blind?
| 590 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:35:11pm |
re: #581 iceweasel
Oh great, it's time again for the "I'm leaving, I'm leaving" schtick. How many more posts will you make?
| 591 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:35:21pm |
re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote
No fuck you back. I am an American. I stand for American liberties. You do not. You are a sick little closet fascist and you deserve all the derision in the world with the rest of those who hate our principles.
thanks for illustrating what many here have tried to warn you about
| 592 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:35:23pm |
re: #559 TheMatrix31
Always so quick to dish it out but can't accept it huh?
I think LVQ is much quicker in both dishing it out and not being able to take it, you pathetic, fascist lickspittle!
///
| 593 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:36:02pm |
re: #587 Jimmah
Are you fucking kidding me? Maybe you should log into her account and check out her post history or something. God knows the things she's called so many of us over the course of her six months here.
| 594 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:36:26pm |
| 595 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:36:35pm |
re: #572 Dark_Falcon
No, what it is is a train wreck thread. Fenway, do you have any train wreck picture that could sum this thread up?
I forget who posted that earlier today.
| 596 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:36:42pm |
re: #587 Jimmah
Except that iceweasel doesn't go around calling people things like "shit" and snarling "fuck you" etc. That seems to be the favourite hobby of the wingnuts here.
You and Ice seem to prefer the "butthurt" soubriquet. That doesn't make you better, just moonbattier.
| 597 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:37:32pm |
re: #582 LudwigVanQuixote
Yeah people who care about being a nation of laws.
Silly you. nice rule of law ya got there, be a shame if anythin happened to it.
:(
| 598 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:37:35pm |
re: #586 Dark_Falcon
BY the way, your argument about detaining until the conflict is over does not apply. There is no declared conflict.
| 600 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:38:00pm |
re: #573 goddamnedfrank
Article II, Section 3 prescribes that the President "shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed." Nothing is said of any other law officer, including the attorney general.
The US Government manual though, describes the Attorney General as the chief law enforcement officer. So people disagree, I know. My concern is Holder. He needs to go.
(I don't actually think he should be tried, in case that was unclear).
| 602 |
Liberally Conservative Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:38:07pm |
re: #599 borgcube
Charles! How about a new music clip thread?
Please? We're losing our minds here : (
| 603 |
SteveC Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:38:18pm |
re: #595 Racer X
I forget who posted that earlier today.
I *love* that photo! It's one of the few that make me seriously wonder exactly how in the hell that happened!
| 604 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:38:22pm |
There is only one form of justice that Al-Qaeda understands and it generally comes from the pointy end of an A-10 Thunderbolt. We (an by we I mean American politicos at large) can argue for days about the pros and cons of a military tribunal or a civil trial but in the long run neither will have a great impact on the long term goals in a war on terror.
Al-Qaeda will declare a psychological victory regardless of the outcome -- even if it is unfounded and even if they lose in the American military or civil judicial system. They will not respond or react to a civil or military trial and as many would agree in neither case does it amount to a deterrence to terrorism. In the long run, these judicial trials are done for ourselves.
| 605 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:38:33pm |
re: #572 Dark_Falcon
No, what it is is a train wreck thread. Fenway, do you have any train wreck picture that could sum this thread up?
I'm not Fenway, but how's this?
[Link: thenastyboys.wordpress.com...]
| 606 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:39:00pm |
re: #587 Jimmah
Except that iceweasel doesn't go around calling people things like "shit" and snarling "fuck you" etc. That seems to be the favourite hobby of the wingnuts here.
You're right, that seems reserved for people like Ludwig. Crappy company you and Ice are keeping lately.
| 607 |
Gearhead Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:39:02pm |
re: #603 SteveC
I *love* that photo! It's one of the few that make me seriously wonder exactly how in the hell that happened!
Texting.
| 608 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:39:03pm |
re: #592 Fenway_Nation
re: #591 albusteve
re: #591 albusteve
I repeat.
To you flag waving patriots who really can't seem to understand what is at stake, let me make it simple.
If you tear down our principles you tear down our nation. That is all we are really as a nation. We do not share a common ancestry. We do not share common backgrounds, but we do share the principles of the rule of law and that a republic can be sound and fair and protect the rights of all.
We do not detain for years on end without representation or a fair hearing. That was one of the things we fought a revolution over.
We do not torture - well that was something established a very long time ago- but we strayed from it to our dishonor.
We don't need the terrorists to take apart America. All we need are people who fear more than they think running America. All we need are the jingoistic fools who follow them blindly.
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
There is not a false statement there. You just don't like the truth. How about this. Get the hell out of my country.
| 609 |
WindHorse Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:39:10pm |
re: #603 SteveC
carefully designed by an engineer... somewhere...
| 610 |
brookly red Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:39:15pm |
re: #593 TheMatrix31
Are you fucking kidding me? Maybe you should log into her account and check out her post history or something. God knows the things she's called so many of us over the course of her six months here.
I just walk away...
| 611 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:39:24pm |
re: #598 LudwigVanQuixote
BY the way, your argument about detaining until the conflict is over does not apply. There is no declared conflict.
Then they never get released. I'm cool with that.
| 612 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:39:36pm |
re: #587 Jimmah
Except that iceweasel doesn't go around calling people things like "shit" and snarling "fuck you" etc. That seems to be the favourite hobby of the wingnuts here.
her favorite is "liar!"...that's a good one...you may have to accept, sooner or later, that you two are not the dreamboat thread stealers you think you are...less than ordinary people in my book...I really don't give a damn about your newfound bliss...take it elsewhere...find your attention within your family or whatever
| 613 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:39:53pm |
re: #598 LudwigVanQuixote
BY the way, your argument about detaining until the conflict is over does not apply. There is no declared conflict.
(Eric Holder Nov. 18th 2009) "We are at war, and we will use every instrument of national power -- civilian, military, law enforcement, intelligence, diplomatic and others -- to win," he told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. "We need not cower in the face of this enemy. Our institutions are strong."
| 614 |
MittDoesNotCompute Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:39:55pm |
re: #488 simoom
That dude over at Free Republic sounds like a total nutbag...
| 615 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:40:13pm |
this thread went non-linear pretty quickly.
| 616 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:40:15pm |
re: #598 LudwigVanQuixote
BY the way, your argument about detaining until the conflict is over does not apply. There is no declared conflict.
Korea was not a declared war and we held North Korean and Chinese prisoners until it ended. Ditto for Vietnam. With that as precedent, I would argue that my argument is still valid.
| 618 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:40:22pm |
re: #604 Gus 802
There is only one form of justice that Al-Qaeda understands and it generally comes from the pointy end of an A-10 Thunderbolt. We (an by we I mean American politicos at large) can argue for days about the pros and cons of a military tribunal or a civil trial but in the long run neither will have a great impact on the long term goals in a war on terror.
Al-Qaeda will declare a psychological victory regardless of the outcome -- even if it is unfounded and even if they lose in the American military or civil judicial system. They will not respond or react to a civil or military trial and as many would agree in neither case does it amount to a deterrence to terrorism. In the long run, these judicial trials are done for ourselves.
Excellent observation.
| 619 |
SteveC Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:40:48pm |
re: #599 borgcube
Charles! How about a new music clip thread?
re: #602 Liberally Conservative
Please? We're losing our minds here : (
*Gets out guitar and sings*
I like bread and butter,
I like toast and jam,
That's what my baby feeds me,
I'm her loving man.
He likes bread and butter,
He likes toast and jam,
That's what his baby feeds him,
He's her loving man.
She don't cook mashed potatoes,
She don't cook T-bone steaks,
Don't feed me peanut butter,
She knows that I can't take.
He likes bread and butter,
He likes toast and jam,
That's what his baby feeds him,
He's her loving man.
Got home early one morning,
Much to my surprise,
She was eating chicken and dumplings
With some other guy.
No more bread and butter,
No more toast and jam,
I found my baby eating
With some other man.
| 620 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:40:52pm |
re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote
Good for you.. but people like KSM stand for making sure that these very liberties and the nation that embraces them are destroyed. He's going to attempt to use them to lose them.
You can't treat him like a freaking bank robber.
| 621 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:40:53pm |
re: #216 Jimmah
Garbage. It is not protection - it is merely the civilised way to pursue justice. We do the same with accused rapists, murderers and paedophiles. Would you call that extending goodwill?
This thinking ignores some very pertinent realities. Rapists etc. do not present a systematic threat to the nation. Disclosure of the means by which one rapist was caught will not endanger others. Rapists still at large do not get together and arrange hits on the detectives who caught some convicted rapist. In situations where organized crime presents a systematic, organized threat to the State, nations such as Italy have convened special courts with secret judges and witnesses, because without such proceedings it is impossible to break the mafia.
War is different from `crime and punishment'. In war, the escape of any enemy represents a real danger to the lives of our fighting men. In war, it really doesn't matter that we distinguish carefully between especially important enemy combatants and those whose role is merely that of placing mines or scouting out our positions. We can with clean conscience kill both types as opportunity arises, right there on the battlefield. And if we can take them prisoner instead, they become at best POW's. For those who organized such things as 9/11, they have no rights under any international agreement and their rights under the Constitution and precedent in U.S. law are minimal. Captured German spies were tried before secret military tribunals and executed. Britain handled its captured German spies with more dispatch, killing those who wouldn't turn and help British intelligence, and without much in the way of formalities. Almost nowhere in the world are spies and saboteurs given much consideration. If they are permitted to live, it will only be because they may have some use providing insight into enemy methods, or because they may some day be exchanged.
Now, the administration proposes to stage a trial in which we must either acquiesce in their acquittal because some civilian nicety was not observed, or hand over intelligence that will be more damaging to our cause than the release of the captured terrorist.
What can Obama have been thinking? It must have been a purely political calculation, because the most cursory thought about the reality of trials and secrets would have disclosed to him and his staff that his decision must have lamentable consequences. For us, if not for him.
| 623 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:41:56pm |
re: #587 Jimmah
No, It's "butthurt" isn't it?
| 624 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:41:57pm |
re: #608 LudwigVanQuixote
No. I like it here. I think the economy has turned the corner, and I'm about the marry the girl I love. I think soon, my gay friends will be able to get married all over this great country of ours, too, and that's swell. We finally elected a black president, and, though I'm worried about global warming, I have faith in our scientists to lead the way no matter what industry and the government does.
Go enact thought purity somewhere else while ignoring all of the moral compromise throughout all of the US's history.
| 625 |
Spare O'Lake Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:42:11pm |
Good Evening LGF.
Have I missed any good fights?
| 626 |
WindHorse Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:42:35pm |
re: #621 lostlakehiker
Obama wasn't thinking... he was admiring himself in the mirror...
| 627 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:42:48pm |
re: #608 LudwigVanQuixote
and I say this firmly: Take your hater ass over to the Daily Kos. They like those who demonize conservatives over there. You and Marcos Moulitsas will get along just fine.
| 628 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:43:00pm |
re: #613 Walter L. Newton
(Eric Holder Nov. 18th 2009) "We are at war, and we will use every instrument of national power -- civilian, military, law enforcement, intelligence, diplomatic and others -- to win," he told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. "We need not cower in the face of this enemy. Our institutions are strong."
Fact-checking rules.
| 629 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:43:03pm |
re: #585 albusteve
I could care less Jimmah...do you reject the notion that shit attracts flies...much to you dumbfoundedness I don't give a damn what you or Iceweasel think of me...are you dense?
I object to your calling iceweasel 'shit' just because you disagree with her. And if you care so little then just don't bother replying. Your unhappy mumblings are not adding anything to the discussion anyway.
| 630 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:43:16pm |
328/26.6% Yes
849/69% No
54/4.4% Unsure
Lizards have spoken. It's a bad idea.
| 631 |
Gearhead Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:43:31pm |
re: #625 Spare O'Lake
Good Evening LGF.
Have I missed any good fights?
"The irony is strong with this one, Master."
| 632 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:43:34pm |
re: #582 LudwigVanQuixote
Yeah people who care about being a nation of laws.
Excellent. Then it is clear - there is no honest opposition to your position that is possible and consistent with our foundational principles, human decency, and the rule of law.
Will you, then, please embody your position in a letter (strongly-worded if need be) to that jingoistic closet fascist Obama and his evil, corrupt, and totalitarian stooge Holder? You may freely post your insight and wisdom from this thread (I imagine Charles would not object) into the body of the letter, and attain thereby the justice and equity that thus far have escaped we mere mortals here.
Waste not another minute of your time with such as us, LVQ, but go immediately to BHO and Holder, and make there your case. Persons of their refinement, education, and experience could not hold such categorically evil positions were they to know the full facts of the matter, and we can all sit back and watch in awe as the world is made right once more.
Hell, they might just erect a monument to you, as the last great patriot.
| 633 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:43:36pm |
| 634 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:44:03pm |
re: #608 LudwigVanQuixote
re: #591 albusteve
re: #591 albusteve
I repeat.
To you flag waving patriots who really can't seem to understand what is at stake, let me make it simple.
If you tear down our principles you tear down our nation. That is all we are really as a nation. We do not share a common ancestry. We do not share common backgrounds, but we do share the principles of the rule of law and that a republic can be sound and fair and protect the rights of all.
We do not detain for years on end without representation or a fair hearing. That was one of the things we fought a revolution over.
We do not torture - well that was something established a very long time ago- but we strayed from it to our dishonor.
We don't need the terrorists to take apart America. All we need are people who fear more than they think running America. All we need are the jingoistic fools who follow them blindly.
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
There is not a false statement there. You just don't like the truth. How about this. Get the hell out of my country.
How about this: you take a break?
| 635 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:44:18pm |
| 636 |
SteveC Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:44:26pm |
re: #625 Spare O'Lake
Good Evening LGF.
Have I missed any good fights?
Not a one - it's kind of boring tonight, actually!
///
///
///
| 637 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:44:29pm |
re: #625 Spare O'Lake
Good Evening LGF.
Have I missed any good fights?
This whole thread is a war zone. Prepare for battle, Spare. We need you, and its already very ugly.
| 638 |
MittDoesNotCompute Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:44:37pm |
re: #509 Fenway_Nation
If we're going to use the fictional charachter allegory- you think that Jack Bauer should be fighting this war- others think Jack McCoy should be the one doing the fighting...in a manhattan courtoroom.
Ben Stone was my man...he'd make mincemeat of KSM.
/early L&O seasons are some of the best...
| 639 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:44:38pm |
re: #608 LudwigVanQuixote
There is not a false statement there. You just don't like the truth. How about this. Get the hell out of my country.
Oooh! From moral arbiter and Supreme Judge of the World to Chief of Immigration. Quite the resume, LVQ.
| 640 |
Liberally Conservative Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:45:27pm |
re: #630 Racer X
328/26.6% Yes
849/69% No
54/4.4% UnsureLizards have spoken. It's a bad idea.
On a side note, that's a lot of votes.
| 641 |
WindHorse Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:45:38pm |
... does anyone else see the irony (to put it nicely) in Obama's latest "teaching moment" warning on "public debt"?
| 642 |
Cheechako Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:45:39pm |
After reading all these opinions I can only come to one conclusion. Should we ever get close to Osama, I don't he'll make past "resisting capture".
| 643 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:45:43pm |
re: #498 LudwigVanQuixote
To you flag waving patriots who really can't seem to understand what it at stake, let me make it simple.
If you tear down our principles you tear down our nation. That is all we are really as a nation. We do not share a common ancestry. We do not share common backgrounds, but we do share the principles of the rule of law and that a republic can be sound and fair and protect the rights of all.
We do not detain for years on end without representation or a fair hearing. That was one of the things we fought a revolution over.
We do not torture - well that was something established a very long time ago- but we strayed from it to our dishonor.
We don't need the terrorists to take apart America. All we need are people who fear more than they think running America. All we need are the jingoistic fools who follow them blindly.
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
Apparently a whole bunch of people here think we should keep on doing do all those things.
I'm with you.
| 645 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:47:04pm |
re: #579 LudwigVanQuixote
Yeah that was a great age to not be white in...
///
So our "American Values" didn't really become such until the 1960's? It is who we are as a country.
| 646 |
WindHorse Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:47:14pm |
"Apparently a whole bunch of people here think we should keep on doing do all those things."
the clarity is blinding...
| 647 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:47:26pm |
re: #624 Obdicut
No. I like it here.
Then if there's any interest in protecting a place we all like from more of this KSM shiite, we had better nip this NYC trial in the bud.
At the very least, it's barbaric to hold it in the shadow of the former WTC which is, by the way, still a shadow.
| 648 |
jaunte Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:47:41pm |
If we are continuing to use both military tribunals and criminal courts to try terrorist suspects, why is the former choice wrong?
| 649 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:48:38pm |
And to think we just had a very nice polite discussion on health care a few threads back.
| 650 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:48:53pm |
Well - I served in uniform, got shot at, shot back, came home, got married, wrote some software, got to be an exec in a software company that ipo'd, built a couple of businesses, raised a family (still doing that), been a catechism teacher and have tried to be sincere in my dealings with people.
But I just learned that I am really just a fascist and should be deported.
Oh well.
| 651 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:49:09pm |
re: #73 iceweasel
No.
Let them have justice meted out to them; let them have every dignity and right accorded to them which they denied to their victims; let them be justly convicted under that very system of laws they hoped to subvert; let them be fairly and humanely convicted, with dignity, mere blocks from the scenes of inhumanity and horror they themselves staged--Let them understand that they cannot take our laws or our values from us--only we can do that to ourselves.
Let them be convicted, and they will know what justice is in a country where people do not storm jails and tear people apart in the streets.
Let them be convicted, and let that conviction, and the place where it will be rendered, be a monument to our justice system, to the essential principles our country was founded on, to truths which are self-evident and eternal.
They will not be convicted. They will demand to know who arrested them. How they knew to make the arrest. How the chain of evidence worked. Exactly how the NSA encodes the files that keep the chain of evidence. The key to that encryption routine, so that their lawyers can inspect the raw cryptotexts to see if they in fact decrypt as claimed. They will want to know the name of the judge. The names and addresses of the jurors, and where they live, and who their sweethearts are and where their grandchildren live. The trials will collapse in a mix of unwillingness to divulge things that must not be divulged, lies about things that a court has ordered divulged that some unhappy flunky at CIA or what have you has to lie about because the judge is about to give away the store, terrorized witnesses and jurors and judges, and general chaos.
It's just not possible to hold the kind of trial we're used to when it comes to these guys. If we played it straight, up and down the line, we'd just be out of jurors and witnesses halfway through the thing. Mistrial, or directed acquittal.
| 652 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:49:15pm |
re: #620 tradewind
Good for you.. but people like KSM stand for making sure that these very liberties and the nation that embraces them are destroyed. He's going to attempt to use them to lose them.
You can't treat him like a freaking bank robber.
Every criminal denies with his crime the laws that bind us.
Throw out the laws to nail a criminal. That'll work.
| 653 |
captdiggs Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:49:27pm |
re: #613 Walter L. Newton
(Eric Holder Nov. 18th 2009) "We are at war, and we will use every instrument of national power -- civilian, military, law enforcement, intelligence, diplomatic and others -- to win," he told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. "We need not cower in the face of this enemy. Our institutions are strong."
Atty. Gen.-nominee Eric Holder helped pardon terrorists linked to my father's murder in 1975.
... my father was at a business lunch at the historic Fraunces Tavern in New York's financial district, a bomb exploded, killing him and three others. One of my father's colleagues was decapitated, and silverware from the table was lodged in the torsos of the other victims. The Armed Forces of National Liberation, or FALN, a Puerto Rican terrorist group, claimed responsibility.
...At the time of the pardons, Eric H. Holder Jr. was deputy attorney general. In considering his department's recommendation on clemency, he met with supporters of the terrorists but ignored their victims. He pushed staff members to drop their strong opposition to a presidential pardon...
[Link: www.latimes.com...]
| 654 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:49:28pm |
re: #647 tradewind
It won't be in the shadow of the former world trade center, if there ever could be such a thing. and, as Lahawk said, it's the right place for it if it is tried in a federal court.
| 655 |
soxfan4life Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:49:28pm |
re: #650 karmic_inquisitor
Well - I served in uniform, got shot at, shot back, came home, got married, wrote some software, got to be an exec in a software company that ipo'd, built a couple of businesses, raised a family (still doing that), been a catechism teacher and have tried to be sincere in my dealings with people.
But I just learned that I am really just a fascist and should be deported.
Oh well.
Well at least you now know.
| 657 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:50:17pm |
re: #652 Cato the Elder
HES NOT A CRIMINAL. HES A FUCKING TERRORIST MASTERMIND WHO MURDERED 3,000 AMERICANS.
| 658 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:50:30pm |
re: #629 Jimmah
I object to your calling iceweasel 'shit' just because you disagree with her. And if you care so little then just don't bother replying. Your unhappy mumblings are not adding anything to the discussion anyway.
tough shit eh Jimmah?...I don't care what you think...just remember..."liar!"
| 659 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:50:39pm |
re: #647 tradewind
Then if there's any interest in protecting a place we all like from more of this KSM shiite, we had better nip this NYC trial in the bud.
At the very least, it's barbaric to hold it in the shadow of the former WTC which is, by the way, still a shadow.
How can nothing cast a shadow.
Idiot.
| 661 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:50:43pm |
re: #630 Racer X
Add the 26.6% YES to the 69% NO and you'd get the percentage that this blog would have tallied not too long ago. A bit of a change in here. Didn't think I'd ever see this place full of people wanting to extend Constitutional rights to admitted foreign terrorists, let alone to the mastermind of 9-11 who wants to plead guilty in a US military court and be executed. This wasn't on my radar.
| 662 |
SpaceJesus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:50:50pm |
slate indexes sarah palin's new book for her
[Link: www.slate.com...]
| 663 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:51:31pm |
re: #644 albusteve
Lead singer's a smug lookin' guy, ain't he?
| 664 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:51:40pm |
re: #652 Cato the Elder
The laws are floating in the water right now, and we're scooping them back on board. If we reach for all of them at once, I bet we'll fall the hell out.
John Brown was in the moral right, in many ways. But in the end, he was in the moral wrong because he just got a lot of people killed.
| 665 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:51:43pm |
re: #656 TheMatrix31
Now, now, now. Cato's a fellow with whom one can disagree and spar just as amicably as you please.
| 666 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:52:02pm |
| 667 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:52:16pm |
re: #652 Cato the Elder
Every criminal denies with his crime the laws that bind us.
Throw out the laws to nail a criminal. That'll work.
They are enemy combatants, not criminals. They are part of a hostile terrorist movement out to kill everyone on this thread, not some biker gang. Get your facts straight.
| 668 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:52:20pm |
re: #634 MandyManners
Geesh, how can anyone be downdinging that suggestion? What's going on here?
| 669 |
simoom Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:52:21pm |
re: #614 talon_262
That dude over at Free Republic sounds like a total nutbag...
Unfortunately he runs the place.
| 670 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:52:22pm |
| 671 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:52:50pm |
re: #661 borgcube
Add the 26.6% YES to the 69% NO and you'd get the percentage that this blog would have tallied not too long ago. A bit of a change in here. Didn't think I'd ever see this place full of people wanting to extend Constitutional rights to admitted foreign terrorists, let alone to the mastermind of 9-11 who wants to plead guilty in a US military court and be executed. This wasn't on my radar.
I can see where they are coming from. I think they are wrong. Doesn't make them or me bad.
| 673 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:53:12pm |
re: #596 Alouette
You and Ice seem to prefer the "butthurt" soubriquet. That doesn't make you better, just moonbattier.
Yes, we do! I'm oh so hurt that you would seriously try to draw an equivalence between the exquisitely crafted snark of the butthurt videos and some drooling wingnut typing "Fuck off". Strangely enough though, such delusional thinking often accompanies butthurt, especially the more advanced stages:
| 674 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:53:16pm |
re: #653 captdiggs
Atty. Gen.-nominee Eric Holder helped pardon terrorists linked to my father's murder in 1975.
... my father was at a business lunch at the historic Fraunces Tavern in New York's financial district, a bomb exploded, killing him and three others. One of my father's colleagues was decapitated, and silverware from the table was lodged in the torsos of the other victims. The Armed Forces of National Liberation, or FALN, a Puerto Rican terrorist group, claimed responsibility.
...At the time of the pardons, Eric H. Holder Jr. was deputy attorney general. In considering his department's recommendation on clemency, he met with supporters of the terrorists but ignored their victims. He pushed staff members to drop their strong opposition to a presidential pardon...[Link: www.latimes.com...]
And your point is?
| 675 |
jonik Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:53:34pm |
I don't get it - KSM wants to do for Allah
We want him to die
Case closed
Hope on the table and let's find a vein
| 676 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:53:51pm |
re: #668 borgcube
Geesh, how can anyone be downdinging that suggestion? What's going on here?
Ludwig is bonkers...read his posts
| 678 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:54:02pm |
re: #557 LudwigVanQuixote
Then don't tear them down asshole.
How is trying them either way tearing down our rights or constitution?
Right now we are looking to take a total of ten terrorists whose cases are ready for adjudication to trial. So why is it that five are being tried in civilian court and five are going before military commissions?
Here is a short newspaper piece describing the five going to trial in New York and what they are accused of. It also describes the five that are headed for Military Commissions in the US on terrorism charges.
[Link: www.boston.com...]
Five in civilian court, five in military court, makes it kind of obvious that the ones going to civilian court are doing so solely for propaganda purposes. Don't wrap yourself up in the flag and proclaim that this is necessary for freedom, it is nothing but political theater.
| 679 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:54:12pm |
re: #647 tradewind
How about this-Ludwig-
How about we build a new trial facility. How about we put it right in that field in Pannsylvania where some of us Americans crashed in the plane trying to save the day.
We have military tribunals for those who qualify, civilian court for those. How about FISA hearings too. We put all this under one big ass roof so nobody like you can claim only one of them represents the rule of law.
| 680 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:54:16pm |
re: #671 Racer X
Makes them stupid though. And in cases of life or death, terrorists v. the good guys...stupid is the same as bad.
| 681 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:54:22pm |
| 682 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:54:28pm |
re: #71 TheMatrix31
Anyone who voted yes should be feel absolutely ashamed of themselves.
Anyone who voted yes should feel just fine. That's how you see it, go ahead and vote that way.
You got it wrong, imho. There will be painful consequences for the nation because too many people failed to make the essential distinction between war and crime. We're in a war, and false steps such as this cost lives. But your conscience is clean, because you just didn't understand. You meant well. Churchill asked the nation to forgive Chamberlain. You too should be forgiven, as and when it becomes apparent to you and everyone else that you were wrong.
| 684 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:55:36pm |
re: #657 TheMatrix31
HES NOT A CRIMINAL. HES A FUCKING TERRORIST MASTERMIND WHO MURDERED 3,000 AMERICANS.
A terrorist mastermind is a criminal.
| 685 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:55:40pm |
This particular thread is community changing, I'm kinda bummed.
| 686 |
Liberally Conservative Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:55:44pm |
re: #680 TheMatrix31
Makes them stupid though. And in cases of life or death, terrorists v. the good guys...stupid is the same as bad.
False dichotomy is false.
| 687 |
The Left Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:55:59pm |
re: #661 borgcube
Add the 26.6% YES to the 69% NO and you'd get the percentage that this blog would have tallied not too long ago. A bit of a change in here. Didn't think I'd ever see this place full of people wanting to extend Constitutional rights to admitted foreign terrorists, let alone to the mastermind of 9-11 who wants to plead guilty in a US military court and be executed. This wasn't on my radar.
The LGF tally so far is trending exactly like the CNN poll on this AFAI can tell. So what are you saying?
| 688 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:56:03pm |
re: #657 TheMatrix31
Shocking. Iceweasel dinged down post #657. Is it because you disagree with the premise that Khalid Sheik Mohammed is not merely a run-of-the-mill criminal? Or are you denying he led the plans which eventually led to the death of 3,000 Americans?
| 689 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:56:20pm |
re: #667 Dark_Falcon
They are enemy combatants, not criminals. They are part of a hostile terrorist movement out to kill everyone on this thread, not some biker gang. Get your facts straight.
Enemy combatants are also criminals.
| 690 |
captdiggs Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:56:23pm |
re: #674 Walter L. Newton
And your point is?
I just thought it was interesting that he was so involved in pardoning other terrorists.
| 691 |
WindHorse Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:56:29pm |
“It is important though to recognise (British for "recognize") if we keep on adding to the debt, even in the midst of this recovery, that at some point, people could lose confidence in the US economy in a double-dip recession,” said Mr Obama.
So nice you could join us Mr. President.
| 692 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:56:46pm |
re: #681 Racer X
Eric Holder is an asshole?
I agree with that. But, it's Obama and Eric who are saying they are criminals, they are at war, they are criminals, they are at war. The administration has fucked this up so bad already that they have no idea who to pander to next.
| 693 |
checked08 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:56:52pm |
re: #445 LudwigVanQuixote
I am getting jumped on for standing up for principles that anyone who really loved America would stand for too.
Ouch. You might want to take your dog for a walk.
| 694 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:56:55pm |
re: #685 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
This particular thread is community changing, I'm kinda bummed.
Yeah me too.
I'm over it now!
| 696 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:57:54pm |
re: #683 Jimmah
Care to elaborate?
not for you...try to keep up dude...if you and her were more accomodating to me it might be otherwise...you treat me like an afterthought, so be it...dense comes to mind
| 697 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:57:57pm |
re: #675 jonik
I don't get it - KSM wants to do for Allah
We want him to die
Case closed
Hope on the table and let's find a vein
That's not all KSM wants. Like the kamikaze pilots of WWII, he wants to die in a way that inflicts maximum damage on us. He wants a trial where he can use the rules of evidence to demonize the CIA and the military and drive the press into attacking those who have kept us safe. He thinks he can use a trial to weaken us, thus making things easier for his successors. I hate KSM with a white-hot passion, but he is a very good planner. And right now Holder and Obama are doing exactly what he wants them to do.
| 698 |
lawhawk Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:58:11pm |
AG Holder in today's testimony once again makes my point for me. He admits that the tribunals would have all manner of protections and would be an appropriate venue for detainees.
Despite criticism that holding such a trial presented greater risks than a military commission, Mr. Holder argued that there were fewer differences between the rules for federal court and the military panels than some critics realize. And, he argued, the Southern District of New York has a long history of successfully prosecuting terrorism suspects.
| 699 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:58:36pm |
re: #662 spacejesus
sentence, actual
"As the soles of my shoes hit the soft ground, I pushed past the tall cottonwood trees in a euphoric cadence, and meandered through willow branches that the moose munched on," 102
| 700 |
cwnorma Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:58:40pm |
I miss the days when we all could just vote "Ron Paul" and run away...
| 701 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:58:55pm |
re: #667 Dark_Falcon
They are enemy combatants, not criminals. They are part of a hostile terrorist movement out to kill everyone on this thread, not some biker gang. Get your facts straight.
Exactly.
Since when is a combatant caught on in the battlefield supposed to get rights? I don't give one flying flip about the rights of terrorists captured in Afghanistan.
| 702 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:59:13pm |
re: #690 captdiggs
I just thought it was interesting that he was so involved in pardoning other terrorists.
More than that - Holder went to the defense attorneys with a pardon deal. They did not even ask for it. He did it for PR gain - and to hell with the victims.
| 703 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:59:37pm |
re: #689 Cato the Elder
But enemy combatant have a separate legitimate legal category, which does not call for a trial. It calls for detention until its over or a swap is arranged. The military tribunal is a perfectly legal option. There is no need to treat attacks on a nation as attacks on a individual, or mere property.
| 704 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 7:59:51pm |
re: #689 Cato the Elder
Enemy combatants are also criminals.
From an earlier bit o'wisdom from today:
Exactly - one side views this as a criminal matter, the other as a warfare/national security matter. Neither side denies that there are elements of truth in the opposing viewpoint (I do not deny that their actions constituted crimes, nor do I think anyone doubts that these acts were part of a campaign of warfare and related to national security matters), it's a question of emphasis.
I emphasize the warfare/national security aspects of it, as those appear to me to be primary factors motivating the actions. That is, they did not conspire to commit the acts they did for conventional criminal motives, or to attain conventional criminal ends. Their express purpose and intent was to cause direct harm to the national security of the United States as part of a campaign of unconventional and unlawful warfare carried out by asymmetrical means. Recognizing this does not diminish or deny the criminality of their acts, but does say that these acts are not primarily criminal.
| 705 |
SpaceJesus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:00:06pm |
re: #699 WindUpBird
sentence, actual
"As the soles of my shoes hit the soft ground, I pushed past the tall cottonwood trees in a euphoric cadence, and meandered through willow branches that the moose munched on," 102
Rock, Kid
approval of as "pro-America" with "common sense ideas," 300
| 707 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:00:20pm |
re: #689 Cato the Elder
Enemy combatants are also criminals.
They are treated differently than criminals. They are the agents of a hostile (though stateless) power and are thus subject to procedures designed to not compromise the resources we use to fight that hostile power.
| 708 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:00:28pm |
re: #692 Walter L. Newton
I agree with that. But, it's Obama and Eric who are saying they are criminals, they are at war, they are criminals, they are at war. The administration has fucked this up so bad already that they have no idea who to pander to next.
Yeah I'm scratching my head on that one too. The only thing I can come up with is 'actions speak louder than their words'.
| 709 |
webevintage Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:00:35pm |
re: #700 cwnorma
I miss the days when we all could just vote "Ron Paul" and run away...
Pie is always a good choice too.
I voted unsure because I don't care.
I just want them tried and executed.
Don't care where or how that is accomplished as long as it is legal and transparent.
| 710 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:00:48pm |
re: #685 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
This particular thread is community changing, I'm kinda bummed.
Me too. I'm hoping we don't get a bunch of "timeouts" and "bannings" on it, later this evening.
STAY RATIONAL, PLEASE!!!?!!!
| 711 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:01:10pm |
re: #652 Cato the Elder
Beautifully said. It was getting lonely here.
| 712 |
jaunte Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:01:27pm |
re: #698 lawhawk
The Justice Department oversight hearing was dominated by debate over Mr. Holder’s announcement last week that the five accused as Sept. 11 co-conspirators would face prosecution in federal court. He also announced that five other detainees at the military prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba — including one accused of a playing a role in the 2000 attack on the U.S.S. Cole — would face trial before a military commission.
Has anyone articulated the difference between the two classes of accused, or what principle is being used to send one to trial in criminal court and another to a military tribunal?
| 713 |
Mich-again Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:01:37pm |
re: #689 Cato the Elder
Enemy combatants are also criminals.
There are enemy combatants and then there are unlawful combatants. The AQ types are unlawful candidates, which means they deserve no Geneva Convention rights. To just bestow upon them all the civil rights granted to average run-of-the-mill criminal in the federal justice system is just plain wrong.
| 715 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:02:07pm |
re: #679 Rightwingconspirator
No, let's not stop there. He needs to be tried by a jury of his peers according to the Constitution. So, we go over to *.stan and pluck out 12 illiterate cave dwellers who as of yesterday didn't even want to believe that the latest bombings in Pakistan claimed by the Taliban weren't really done by the Taliban because Muslims just don't do those sorts of things and therefore it must be the Joooze and fly them over here to sit in judgment of KSM.
Just wait, I fully expect that to be an actual defense objection to the proceedings; that Mr. KSM sitting there with a nice suit and shave can't be tried by a NYC jury because they're not his peers.
It's going to be even worse than that.
| 716 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:02:15pm |
re: #696 albusteve
not for you...try to keep up dude...if you and her were more accomodating to me it might be otherwise...you treat me like an afterthought, so be it...dense comes to mind
I speak civilly and even amiably to you whenever I get the chance, as you will admit if you are honest.
Don't run away from the question, Albusteve - explain yourself.
| 717 |
checked08 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:02:24pm |
re: #657 TheMatrix31
So should we still be bound by the law when dealing with the terrorist who orchestrated the 9/11 attacks that killed over 3,000 people?
| 718 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:02:34pm |
re: #711 LudwigVanQuixote
You mean you need someone to support your vile nonsense? Is that to validate yourself or something?
| 720 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:02:41pm |
re: #708 Racer X
Yeah I'm scratching my head on that one too. The only thing I can come up with is 'actions speak louder than their words'.
BO is a disaster...he's making a mockery of us all...rad man
| 721 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:02:43pm |
re: #652 Cato the Elder
Using on set of laws instead of the Federal court is hardly throwing anything out-Its the apropraite adjustment to the laws that best apply. The laws of war, as apply when a nation is attacked.
| 722 |
Spare O'Lake Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:02:53pm |
re: #637 Dark_Falcon
This whole thread is a war zone. Prepare for battle, Spare. We need you, and its already very ugly.
"Holy civilian trial, Batman, is it the Joker?"
No, Robin, it's the Riddler...to the Batmobile!
*cue theme song*
BAM! BIFF! WHACK! ZAP! KAPOW!
BATMAN!
| 723 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:03:06pm |
| 724 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:03:09pm |
re: #711 LudwigVanQuixote
Beautifully said. It was getting lonely here.
What? did the thieves stop talking to you or something?
| 725 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:03:42pm |
re: #711 LudwigVanQuixote
Beautifully said. It was getting lonely here.
you and Cato can go make out over in the corner...nobody will care
| 726 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:03:58pm |
re: #687 iceweasel
That a LGF poll on this subject in particular would not have been anywhere close to a similar CNN poll not long ago. Not even close.
| 727 |
right_wing2 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:04:14pm |
You can't negotiate with a rabid dog. You don't put a rabid dog on trial. You shoot it before it attacks you or your loved ones.
| 728 |
SpaceJesus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:04:40pm |
| 729 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:05:05pm |
re: #715 borgcube
While I disagree with the NYC trial, I imagine we'll do better than that. No CAMERAS!
| 730 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:05:38pm |
re: #673 Jimmah
Yes, we do! I'm oh so hurt that you would seriously try to draw an equivalence between the exquisitely crafted snark of the butthurt videos and some drooling wingnut typing "Fuck off". Strangely enough though, such delusional thinking often accompanies butthurt, especially the more advanced stages:
You will be even more butthurt to learn that I never bother to click on your oh so brilliant selection of videos.
| 732 |
Mich-again Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:06:00pm |
This was an attack on our entire nation. It was designed to cripple our financial system and bring the entire nation to its knees. It was not intended just to kill off 3,000 lives. Those lives were just the collateral damage in the bigger goal of the combatants.
| 734 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:06:15pm |
| 736 |
MittDoesNotCompute Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:06:28pm |
re: #608 LudwigVanQuixote
re: #591 albusteve
re: #591 albusteve
I repeat.
To you flag waving patriots who really can't seem to understand what is at stake, let me make it simple.
If you tear down our principles you tear down our nation. That is all we are really as a nation. We do not share a common ancestry. We do not share common backgrounds, but we do share the principles of the rule of law and that a republic can be sound and fair and protect the rights of all.
We do not detain for years on end without representation or a fair hearing. That was one of the things we fought a revolution over.
We do not torture - well that was something established a very long time ago- but we strayed from it to our dishonor.
We don't need the terrorists to take apart America. All we need are people who fear more than they think running America. All we need are the jingoistic fools who follow them blindly.
I say it firmly. You are all pathetic.
There is not a false statement there. You just don't like the truth. How about this. Get the hell out of my country.
You've taken leave of your senses...while you may have a point with some of this, you've gone off the rails with this "agree with me or GTFO!" crap.
/step away and chill out...
| 737 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:06:33pm |
re: #688 TheMatrix31
Shocking. Iceweasel dinged down post #657. Is it because you disagree with the premise that Khalid Sheik Mohammed is not merely a run-of-the-mill criminal? Or are you denying he led the plans which eventually led to the death of 3,000 Americans?
That is a crime. He is a criminal.
| 738 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:06:35pm |
re: #708 Racer X
Yeah I'm scratching my head on that one too. The only thing I can come up with is 'actions speak louder than their words'.
Obama is in chaos right now. As a lawyer, he know better, but as the "king of the world," he is pandering to the rest of the planet, trying not to look like Bush. And he promises the world action on climate change and then he backs off that. At home, he can't even make sure he is counting job "created/save/or made up out of whole cloth." He's getting push back from his own party on health care and to top it off, no matter what he does about troops, he's going to piss someone off.
This is why people like Ludwig are loosing it. All this hope and change bullshit has become hopeless and changeless... and the progressives feel like they got fucked... and guess what, they did.
Too bad, so sad.
| 739 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:07:09pm |
re: #730 Alouette
You will be even more butthurt to learn that I never bother to click on your oh so brilliant selection of videos.
heh...that hurts...ahahaha!..he was warned tho
| 740 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:07:09pm |
re: #711 LudwigVanQuixote
Beautifully said. It was getting lonely here.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
| 741 |
Aye Pod Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:07:41pm |
re: #730 Alouette
You will be even more butthurt to learn that I never bother to click on your oh so brilliant selection of videos.
I just scanned myself for butthurt after reading that :
| 742 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:07:45pm |
re: #718 TheMatrix31
You mean you need someone to support your vile nonsense? Is that to validate yourself or something?
NO not at all, I like to be reminded that not everyone is as hateful of American values as you.
| 743 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:07:55pm |
re: #735 Dark_Falcon
? Am I missing a reference or something there?
| 744 |
jaunte Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:08:04pm |
| 745 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:08:13pm |
re: #735 Dark_Falcon
C'mon! I'm trying to get him to go apoplectic. How else will his martyrdom for sweet lady liberty be accomplished?
| 746 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:08:20pm |
re: #730 Alouette
You will be even more butthurt to learn that I never bother to click on your oh so brilliant selection of videos.
ROTFLMAO
| 748 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:08:25pm |
re: #707 Dark_Falcon
They are treated differently than criminals. They are the agents of a hostile (though stateless) power and are thus subject to procedures designed to not compromise the resources we use to fight that hostile power.
Well let's just summarily execute anyone who opposes us.
Oh, wait...that would make us...the SS.
| 749 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:08:28pm |
re: #732 Mich-again
This was an attack on our entire nation. It was designed to cripple our financial system and bring the entire nation to its knees. It was not intended just to kill off 3,000 lives. Those lives were just the collateral damage in the bigger goal of the combatants.
Absolutely!
The intent was to cripple America's economy - and they came damn close to doing just that. That Damn Bush helped to keep things held together for 7 more years before it all fell apart.
| 750 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:08:29pm |
| 751 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:09:30pm |
re: #738 Walter L. Newton
Obama is in chaos right now. As a lawyer, he know better, but as the "king of the world," he is pandering to the rest of the planet, trying not to look like Bush. And he promises the world action on climate change and then he backs off that. At home, he can't even make sure he is counting job "created/save/or made up out of whole cloth." He's getting push back from his own party on health care and to top it off, no matter what he does about troops, he's going to piss someone off.
This is why people like Ludwig are loosing it. All this hope and change bullshit has become hopeless and changeless... and the progressives feel like they got fucked... and guess what, they did.
Too bad, so sad.
The real wonder is that they were delusional enough to believe that Obama could actually live up to the hype. What's the sound of a liberal running face first into the wall we call reality?
| 752 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:09:53pm |
re: #748 Cato the Elder
Well let's just summarily execute anyone who opposes us.
Oh, wait...that would make us...the SS.
As opposed to the US.
| 753 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:10:14pm |
re: #751 Dark_Falcon
The real wonder is that they were delusional enough to believe that Obama could actually live up to the hype. What's the sound of a liberal running face first into the wall we call reality?
Ludwig.
| 754 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:10:19pm |
| 755 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:10:25pm |
Criminal
crim⋅i⋅nal
/ˈkrɪmənl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [krim-uh-nl] Show IPA
Use criminal in a Sentence
See web results for criminal
See images of criminal
–adjective
1. of the nature of or involving crime.
2. guilty of crime.
3. Law. of or pertaining to crime or its punishment: a criminal proceeding.
4. senseless; foolish: It's criminal to waste so much good food.
5. exorbitant; grossly overpriced: They charge absolutely criminal prices.
–noun
6. a person guilty or convicted of a crime.
Enemy Combatantre: #689 Cato the Elder
Enemy combatants are also criminals.
Main Entry: enemy combatant
Part of Speech: n
Definition: any member of the armed forces of a state with which another state is at war; also, any person in an armed conflict, including terrorism, who could be properly detained under the laws and customs of war
Example: The term "enemy combatant" actually refers to persons the United States regards as unlawful combatants, a category of persons who do not qualify for prisoner-of-war status under the Geneva Conventions.
| 756 |
checked08 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:10:27pm |
re: #723 TheMatrix31
I mean how should WE act according to law, not how it does apply to KSH or his buddies, for that matter. Not trying to be snarky, would like your view.
| 757 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:10:42pm |
re: #724 Guanxi88
What? did the thieves stop talking to you or something?
I thought that was rude the first time.
Very simple buddy. Long after my Grandparents fought the Germans and the Japanese, they were really keen to poitnt out that America was better because of the rule of law.
Tehey were proud that we did not torture like the Germans or the Japanese. They were proud to stand for the notion that all men have certain rights - like the right to a fair and speedy trial.
You on the other hand seem to miss that point.
Did the SS stop whispering to you?
| 758 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:10:44pm |
re: #741 Jimmah
I just scanned myself for butthurt after reading that :
[Video]
you scanned yourself!..good grief...still hung up on that?...stick to the issues
| 759 |
Mich-again Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:10:48pm |
re: #748 Cato the Elder
Well let's just summarily execute anyone who opposes us.
Who offered up that suggestion besides you?
| 760 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:10:58pm |
re: #731 lawhawk
This is a fast thread so I'll ask rather than read-Sorry-Would "not enough evidence" include not enough admissible evidence-classified or acquired under waterboarding, to put this in a tribunal? or FISA?
At least that's not going to leak back to help follow on terrorists.
| 761 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:11:35pm |
By the way -
We have several justice systems in this country (The USA).
For instance we have Tax Court. It hears federal Tax cases. Cheated on your taxes? Can't do a deal with the IRS agent? You get to go to tax court! And the rules of evidence are quite different from criminal/civil Court. You want a jury? Sorry? You want to depose agents? Their bosses? Sorry. Discovery? You want to see everything they have on you? Sorry. Do they have to demonstrate your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? Not really - you actually have to use your records to prove you are innocent. What - it is past 7 years so you destroyed them? Sorry - that rule doesn't apply if you are up on criminal charges. And if you keep records past 7 years, agents will ask "what are you worried about?"
If you have a tax case, ask for a Military Commission Trial.
| 762 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:11:48pm |
| 763 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:12:23pm |
re: #752 Cato the Elder
As opposed to the US.
Yes Cato. There is only one court in America. There can't be any discussion on jurisdiction. Everyone here is simply suggesting we take them out and shoot them, just like we did the Naz-- Wait? We did what with the Nazis? Military tribunals? OoOo...
Grow up, and join the discussion or get out.
| 764 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:12:35pm |
re: #748 Cato the Elder
The SS didn't execute everyone they came across. They did summarilly execute quite a few people, including a suprisingly large number of my great-grandaunts and uncles and cousins twice removed.
They also took a lot of them to camps. Some of the camps were work camps, some of them were, well, death camps.
We put people in camps in that war too, the Japanese, our own citizens-- just like the Nazis did. We didn't kill any of them, though a few of them died from medical conditions that definitely wouldn't have occurred outside the camps. Many of them were malnourished.
And yet we weren't the SS.
| 765 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:13:03pm |
re: #743 TheMatrix31
? Am I missing a reference or something there?
In a previous post Guanxi88 wrote that Ludwig was (and I'm paraphrasing) "up there between two thieves". The implication of that wwas the Ludwig was acting as if he was Jesus Christ, crucified for America's sin. I though the follow-on in the same vein inappropriate, that's all. In terms of the actual points, I agree with Guanxi88 clear down the line tonight.
| 767 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:13:23pm |
And Walter, what downdinging the rule of law? Hate the fact that the Germans and the Japanese would deny fair or speedy trials and torture?
Yes, why not get in bed with them? That is exactly what they would do.
Own it and stop whining. The rest of us who believe that America is better than that are really happy to have our country back.
| 768 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:15:00pm |
re: #742 LudwigVanQuixote
NO not at all, I like to be reminded that not everyone is as hateful of American values as you.
It must break your heart, seeing the nation you love so horribly betrayed by those whose evil, malice, and, in my own case, racial bigotry, drive them to oppose you and conceal their treachery behind the glib and oily mask of "disagreement." Too clever for them, Your Holiness is able to discern at once that no position, save Thine, is consistent or intellectually honest, and that no one, save Thyself, is able to articulate a position on this that is not inconsistent. My poor meagre wits cause me to believe that Your Grace must indeed be one of those Real Americans about whom we hear so much.
Blessed indeed are we, that we may have Thy guidance and direction, O Oracle of La Mancha.
| 769 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:15:00pm |
re: #756 checked08
I believe its circumstantial and not everything can be black and white. It depends on who it is, what's the offense, how they've been captured, etc.
Of course, PERSONALLY, anyone who commits such an atrocity deserves nothing but death.
| 770 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:15:01pm |
re: #705 SpaceJesus
Rock, Kid
approval of as "pro-America" with "common sense ideas," 300
Wasilla, notable nicknames for
Duct Tape Capital of the World, 66
| 771 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:15:06pm |
Hello Lizards, I'm back after a nice dinner.
Did I miss anything?
| 772 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:15:34pm |
re: #765 Dark_Falcon
Thanks for clarifying that. I've never heard that before.
| 773 |
webevintage Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:16:00pm |
In other news, it looks like Texas may have outlawed marrige in its rush to keep the gays from getting hitched.
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
| 775 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:16:31pm |
re: #748 Cato the Elder
Well let's just summarily execute anyone who opposes us.
Oh, wait...that would make us...the SS.
That was not what I said. I previously said that I'd like to see a particualar individual whose guilt is clear and the evidence overwhelming, and who is an unlawful enemy combatant summarily executed, and that's not even an option I have ever pushed for. But please don't let me keep you from that strawman you're so busy building.
| 776 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:16:33pm |
re: #767 LudwigVanQuixote
We won't have a country for long if we allow terrorists to bomb us, murder us, then get tried under our freedoms.
| 777 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:16:57pm |
re: #767 LudwigVanQuixote
And Walter, what downdinging the rule of law? Hate the fact that the Germans and the Japanese would deny fair or speedy trials and torture?
Yes, why not get in bed with them? That is exactly what they would do.
Own it and stop whining. The rest of us who believe that America is better than that are really happy to have our country back.
Own, it, bitch. Own it.
| 778 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:17:07pm |
re: #771 Surabaya Stew
Hello Lizards, I'm back after a nice dinner.
Did I miss anything?
A real fight. People hate that I keep pointing out how Americans used to be proud that we stood for the rule of law.
They really hate that all those people we were taught that we were better than did things like hold people indefinitely without trial and torture.
They hate the fact that they are defending the same sorts of things that the SS and the Khmer Rouge and the Japanese did.
They really hate having it pointed out to them.
| 779 |
captdiggs Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:17:33pm |
re: #738 Walter L. Newton
Obama is in chaos right now. As a lawyer, he know better, but as the "king of the world," he is pandering to the rest of the planet, trying not to look like Bush. And he promises the world action on climate change and then he backs off that. At home, he can't even make sure he is counting job "created/save/or made up out of whole cloth." He's getting push back from his own party on health care and to top it off, no matter what he does about troops, he's going to piss someone off.
This is why people like Ludwig are loosing it. All this hope and change bullshit has become hopeless and changeless... and the progressives feel like they got fucked... and guess what, they did.
Too bad, so sad.
Rhetoric only goes so far in the real world.
Because the real world is not a political campaign. In the real world, you have to act on worst case scenarios.
Obama was and is completely unprepared for being president. That was something virtually every candidate said during the campaign...even Hillary.
Obama's only real gift was his oratory.
That worked to get him elected, it is patently insufficient when dealing with the likes of Putin.
| 780 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:17:39pm |
I so confuse. We are so much better than 'that', yet we want to be just like 'them' that aren't Americans.
§-/
| 781 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:17:48pm |
re: #767 LudwigVanQuixote
And Walter, what downdinging the rule of law? Hate the fact that the Germans and the Japanese would deny fair or speedy trials and torture?
Yes, why not get in bed with them? That is exactly what they would do.
Own it and stop whining. The rest of us who believe that America is better than that are really happy to have our country back.
You so cute...
| 782 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:18:01pm |
| 783 |
Dancing along the light of day Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:18:03pm |
I think we all need to agree, that we love America, as a country, with it's freedoms, and ability for us to have the freedoms reflect our personal values.
I don't think there's anyone posting here, that does NOT love America.
So, we can agree on that.
Now, as to HOW we express this, we can disagree.
I would hope that the basic value of "Loving America" would trump some of the nastiness, but, your mileage may vary.
Please do take the time to remember, that your LGF posters, love America too.
| 784 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:18:36pm |
re: #742 LudwigVanQuixote
NO not at all, I like to be reminded that not everyone is as hateful of American values as you.
Not that I want to spar regarding this (I'm rather tired and feel a little ill) but isn't that the same kind of jingoistic patriotism that you protest from time to time? In other words you're saying that those that disagree with you are hateful of American values?
I'm on the fence regrading this but I think in neither case can we judge peoples values based on their position with this issue. There are valid arguments coming from both sides and they are best served when they focus on the issues and legalities and least served when we throw about value judgments upon people.
I do not seek an echo chamber focused on either side of the debate. I think it's healthy to have differing views (whether they be those that vote yes, no or unsure) as long as we maintain common respect.
| 785 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:18:43pm |
re: #771 Surabaya Stew
Hello Lizards, I'm back after a nice dinner.
Did I miss anything?
You've missed the ugliest thread this season, by a long margin.
| 787 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:18:55pm |
re: #781 Walter L. Newton
You so cute...
Well you always did have a problem understanding what a fascist was. Though to be fair, the Stalinists would do this stuff too.
Idiot.
| 788 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:19:07pm |
re: #778 LudwigVanQuixote
So am I a North Korean or a German Nazi?
/confused
/what a fucking asshole you are
| 789 |
albusteve Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:19:13pm |
re: #767 LudwigVanQuixote
And Walter, what downdinging the rule of law? Hate the fact that the Germans and the Japanese would deny fair or speedy trials and torture?
Yes, why not get in bed with them? That is exactly what they would do.
Own it and stop whining. The rest of us who believe that America is better than that are really happy to have our country back.
back from who? back from the hated Bush doctrine?...bwahahaha..very time you open your mouth deserves a downding...BO embraces Bush
| 790 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:19:16pm |
re: #778 LudwigVanQuixote
Funny, but you're the one making it sound like it's now Year Zero all of a sudden.
| 791 |
WindHorse Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:19:31pm |
re: #778 LudwigVanQuixote
Please educate me on where and when the US has done anything like what the Khmer Rouge or the SS has done. And links would be nice.
| 792 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:20:35pm |
re: #652 Cato the Elder
You can serve the alligator rights on a stick for hors'd'oeuvres all you want...but that won't prevent him from making you the main course.
None of those detainees should ever set foot in the United States.
| 793 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:20:44pm |
re: #757 LudwigVanQuixote
I thought that was rude the first time.
Very simple buddy. Long after my Grandparents fought the Germans and the Japanese, they were really keen to poitnt out that America was better because of the rule of law.
Tehey were proud that we did not torture like the Germans or the Japanese. They were proud to stand for the notion that all men have certain rights - like the right to a fair and speedy trial.
You on the other hand seem to miss that point.
Did the SS stop whispering to you?
Imagine my surprise, you son of a bitch, to learn you'd drag the SS into it. The last time those folk spoke to anyone in my family was shortly before my grandfather, of blessed memory, and veteran of Pacific and European theatres, fired one round into the back of their heads with his 1911.
Fool that he was, he thought he was fighting to defend what remained of the civilized world from the long dark night of totalitarianism. Had he but known that he'd waded into the slaughterhouse of the 20th century in order to ensure the right to a speedy trial, i doubt he'd have bothered.
| 794 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:21:16pm |
re: #518 brookly red
We didn't take them down in a jury trial IIRC
I'm going to pound my head on the wall now.
| 795 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:21:23pm |
re: #774 webevintage
what was for dinner?
Fresh hamburger, spaghetti, and orange squash. Nothing too exciting, tonight wasn't a shell steak kinda night. How about yourself?
| 796 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:21:36pm |
re: #787 LudwigVanQuixote
Well you always did have a problem understanding what a fascist was. Though to be fair, the Stalinists would do this stuff too.
Idiot.
and you're cuddly.
| 797 |
bratwurst Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:21:39pm |
WAY OT:
Jon Stewart just played Lou Dobbs on with a mariachi band! Check out the replay later.
| 798 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:21:59pm |
re: #778 LudwigVanQuixote
A real fight. People hate that I keep pointing out how Americans used to be proud that we stood for the rule of law.
They really hate that all those people we were taught that we were better than did things like hold people indefinitely without trial and torture.
They hate the fact that they are defending the same sorts of things that the SS and the Khmer Rouge and the Japanese did.
They really hate having it pointed out to them.
Please show me the American killing fields. Show me the schools where thousands were killed. Show me the children that were massacred. Show me the pictures you fucking fool. You disgust me on a level second only to those you trivialize.
The Killing Fields under Khmer Rouge
| 799 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:22:06pm |
re: #516 Walter L. Newton
No Ludwig, You are pathetic and my suggestion is that you listen to what I am saying about you, and focus on you and I.
Honestly, you display absolutely zero professionalism in your manner and approach to debating a issue. You would make Newton and Liebniz ashamed, and they were master debaters and so very capable of making stating their science without taking it to the level of malice.
Pay close attention, you show malice toward you fellow man, you actually have a hate, a hatred of anyone who doesn't see things the way you do, doesn't parrot back the science the way you do or value the same things you do.
I will actually suggest that you go back to Talmud, go back to the writing of the Rebbe's, look over the commentaries and learn something about wisdom.
I wish only good for you, but you have to start finding a little love for those who don't see things the way you do. Otherwise, you are going to grow up to be a very lonely old man.
I don't agree. Ludwig is not malicious. He's pissed with us for taking a side he thinks is immoral. The trouble with judging people's morals by the decisions they make is that this judgment presumes the other person has reasoned just as you do, because anyone with a modicum of reason would see it that way. And then, from there, the conclusion of malice becomes inescapable. But people do in fact reason differently. Sometimes they reason erroneously. In fact, any time two people disagree on conclusions while agreeing on the facts, it's a sure thing at least one has made a mistake.
I think that this time, the mistake is Ludwigs. When it comes to AGW, a lot of the rest of ya are mistaken, and he's right. C'est la vie. Human reason is imperfect. Of course, I could be mistaken.
| 800 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:22:07pm |
re: #791 WindHorse
Please educate me on where and when the US has done anything like what the Khmer Rouge or the SS has done. And links would be nice.
He doesn't have time for links. He and Cato need to finish dressing the strawman they've built. He's named "Eeevil sekirt fascist conservative" though other people just call him by his nickname "Bullshit".
| 801 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:22:43pm |
re: #791 WindHorse
Please educate me on where and when the US has done anything like what the Khmer Rouge or the SS has done. And links would be nice.
Well the Khmer Rouge was infamous for waterboarding... I'm so glad you asked.
So were the SS...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
So for that matter was the Spanish Inquisition.
Care to look that up. Check the links in the wiki... Of course they were also organizations that were into detaining people without trial or representation. But you knew that at least yes?
| 802 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:23:22pm |
re: #793 Guanxi88
Imagine my surprise, you son of a bitch, to learn you'd drag the SS into it. The last time those folk spoke to anyone in my family was shortly before my grandfather, of blessed memory, and veteran of Pacific and European theatres, fired one round into the back of their heads with his 1911.
Fool that he was, he thought he was fighting to defend what remained of the civilized world from the long dark night of totalitarianism. Had he but known that he'd waded into the slaughterhouse of the 20th century in order to ensure the right to a speedy trial, i doubt he'd have bothered.
Well then don't dishonor his memory be defending the things that the SS would do.
| 803 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:23:58pm |
re: #766 Racer X
Looks as if most of the water's been drunk already///.
| 804 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:24:23pm |
re: #792 tradewind
You can serve the alligator rights on a stick for hors'd'oeuvres all you want...but that won't prevent him from making you the main course.
None of those detainees should ever set foot in the United States.
Even the ones we scooped up for no reason but that their brothers-in-law turned them in as terrorists to get the bounty we were paying?
We did that.
| 805 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:24:28pm |
re: #799 lostlakehiker
He's not MALICIOUS?
He's calling us communists, murderers, nazis, etc and he's not MALICIOUS? He tell us we're America-hating because we want KSM to get fucked like an enemy combatant and he's not MALICIOUS?
| 806 |
webevintage Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:24:46pm |
re: #795 Surabaya Stew
Fresh hamburger, spaghetti, and orange squash. Nothing too exciting, tonight wasn't a shell steak kinda night. How about yourself?
Sounds yummy.
Tonight I broke out the deep fryer and made fish and chips.
Pain in the ass, but so, so good.
| 807 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:24:51pm |
re: #778 LudwigVanQuixote
A real fight. People hate that I keep pointing out how Americans used to be proud that we stood for the rule of law.
They really hate that all those people we were taught that we were better than did things like hold people indefinitely without trial and torture.
They hate the fact that they are defending the same sorts of things that the SS and the Khmer Rouge and the Japanese did.
They really hate having it pointed out to them.
This kinda stuff really brings out a lot of emotions on both sides. Even I was surprised earlier today at how strong my own feelings got after a vigorous back and forth with Walter and Sharm. Guess its going to go on until the trial is over.
| 808 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:25:19pm |
re: #778 LudwigVanQuixote
A real fight. People hate that I keep pointing out how Americans used to be proud that we stood for the rule of law.
They really hate that all those people we were taught that we were better than did things like hold people indefinitely without trial and torture.
They hate the fact that they are defending the same sorts of things that the SS and the Khmer Rouge and the Japanese did.
They really hate having it pointed out to them.
Did we have the rule of law in mind when we dropped the bomb on Japan? About the same order of magnitude in death toll. While not the same military toll, the economic toll was orders of magnitude larger. That is no less significant of an attack on our nation.
I think we should have dealt with Afghanistan like we did Japan--no, not dropping THE bomb, but we should have recognized how costly it would be to take over Afghanistan in terms of both life and treasure. We should have bombed with impunity until the Taliban voluntarily surrendered Obama and gang.
| 809 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:25:22pm |
re: #801 LudwigVanQuixote
Dude.
How many were waterboarded? Three?
How many were summarily executed after being waterboarded? Zero.
Not the same at all.
| 811 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:25:36pm |
re: #785 Dark_Falcon
You've missed the ugliest thread this season, by a long margin.
By the looks of it, I concur.
| 812 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:25:59pm |
re: #800 Dark_Falcon
He doesn't have time for links. He and Cato need to finish dressing the strawman they've built. He's named "Eeevil sekirt fascist conservative" though other people just call him by his nickname "Bullshit".
No actually I gave links... want some more:
OK...
Here's some spanish inquisition fro you.
[Link: www3.interscience.wiley.com...]
| 813 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:26:03pm |
re: #802 LudwigVanQuixote
Well then don't dishonor his memory be defending the things that the SS would do.
Well, the SS wouldn't give two shits about 3000 Americans killed on 9/11 and they would be ready to save and protect the terrorist who did it.
Sound familiar?
| 814 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:26:05pm |
re: #776 TheMatrix31
thats pretty circular.
it's the system equal justice, fairness and plurality that makes America great...denying that system to those who seek to undermine that system... is cutting off one's nose to spite ones face.
Showing that the system that they hate so much works and applying it to them first hand... is a great vctory for the side of Reason in all this.
In a battle of ideals - ours are better - for the sake of everyone who has died to uphold them - let's not move away from them now.
| 815 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:26:12pm |
re: #778 LudwigVanQuixote
A real fight. People hate that I keep pointing out how Americans used to be proud that we stood for the rule of law.
They really hate that all those people we were taught that we were better than did things like hold people indefinitely without trial and torture.
They hate the fact that they are defending the same sorts of things that the SS and the Khmer Rouge and the Japanese did.
They really hate having it pointed out to them.
I can't keep quiet anymore. You are a most despicable person to compare anyone to those brutal regimes. Shame on you. You disgust me.
| 816 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:26:20pm |
re: #808 BryanS
Did we have the rule of law in mind when we dropped the bomb on Japan? About the same order of magnitude in death toll. While not the same military toll, the economic toll was orders of magnitude larger. That is no less significant of an attack on our nation.
I think we should have dealt with Afghanistan like we did Japan--no, not dropping THE bomb, but we should have recognized how costly it would be to take over Afghanistan in terms of both life and treasure. We should have bombed with impunity until the Taliban voluntarily surrendered
ObamaOsama and gang.
PIMF, LOL :)
| 817 |
yesandno Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:26:31pm |
re: #732 Mich-again
This was an attack on our entire nation. It was designed to cripple our financial system and bring the entire nation to its knees. It was not intended just to kill off 3,000 lives. Those lives were just the collateral damage in the bigger goal of the combatants.
It was also intended to kill a lot more then 3,000 people...the buildings could hold 50,000 people. They expected to kill more. Had the escape of so many not been completed before the buildings collapsed the toll could have been many times higher.
Indeed, it was an attack on the whole nation...it was an act of war before it could be described as criminal.
I hope that the reasons given for trying them in NY are honest interpretations of how best to deal with the issues legally. But I have my reservations. I do think part of what the deal is that they want to describe "illegal" behaviors not in the realms of the terrorists...they wish to describe the illegal behaviors of the Bush administration and then let others indict them for war crimes. I hope I am wrong.
| 819 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:26:48pm |
re: #586 Dark_Falcon
The people who entirely agree with him.
Ludwig is a very smart and very passionate man, but sometimes that passion gets the better of him. This is one of those times.
He does not seem to be the only one. Lord.
| 820 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:27:02pm |
re: #802 LudwigVanQuixote
Well then don't dishonor his memory be defending the things that the SS would do.
Oh blessed LVQ! To honor his memory on your standard would require I deport myself.
But, given that he did what he did, and as awful as that is, perhaps it is for the best, on your estimation, that his days were not prolonged, lest he foul this nation with his evil?
The fucking SS! Ya hear that, everybody? I'm a supporter of the SS because I suggest that a federal court is not the place to deal with these people.
Are Obama and Holder also defending and supporting SS actions, or do you just reserve that slander for those such as we?
| 821 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:27:09pm |
re: #804 Cato the Elder
Ship 'em home.
We can even pay the freight, if you think that's the right thing to do.///
| 822 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:27:45pm |
re: #818 WindHorse
That's a very nice. if stretched, word for it.
| 823 |
webevintage Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:28:03pm |
Goodwin's Law yet?
OT, but in local Arkansas news it seems you can get the local deputy to come out and use a Taser on your kid if they are a brat who refuses to take a shower.
[Link: www.myeyewitnessnews.com...]
Arkansas.
Classy...
| 824 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:28:05pm |
re: #785 Dark_Falcon
You've missed the ugliest thread this season, by a long margin.
I take it the thread involved Ludwig Von Beck?
| 825 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:28:25pm |
re: #820 Guanxi88
The SS used some of the first IBM machines. If LVQ truly is a fighter of fascism, he'll never touch his PC again.
| 826 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:28:47pm |
In threads past, I've posted links to various songs. What a Wonderful World. God Bless the USA. The National Anthem.
I didn't today/tonight because I detected a very strong anti-American presence.
| 827 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:28:55pm |
The moral equivalence is deep in here.
Deeply flawed.
| 828 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:29:01pm |
re: #819 SanFranciscoZionist
He does not seem to be the only one. Lord.
No, he's not. This thread is just mean. I need to step back for 5 minutes.
| 830 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:29:29pm |
re: #798 McSpiff
Please show me the American killing fields. Show me the schools where thousands were killed. Show me the children that were massacred. Show me the pictures you fucking fool. You disgust me on a level second only to those you trivialize.
The Killing Fields under Khmer Rouge
[Video]
There was this little incident at Sand Creek, Colorado.
| 832 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:29:38pm |
re: #810 Killgore Trout
Sooo, how's the weather on the West coast this evening? Fair I trust?
| 833 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:29:41pm |
Since there seem to be a few foodies about tonight:
Gordon Ramsey - F WORD - Stuffed Chicken Legs
I love this format for the recipes. Quick, simple and don't fret over measurements and temperatures. Nice overview for the intermediate cooks out there.
| 834 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:29:45pm |
re: #814 wozzablog
I don't think they give a fuck about our reason. I think they want us dead--and that's it.
I'm pretty sure that those who have fought for what we have would be rolling over in their graves at the idea that a motherfucker who killed three thousand of us and is part of a group that wants to destroy us all and kill off the freedoms they so dearly fought for is tried under those same freedoms.
| 835 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:30:14pm |
re: #826 MandyManners
In threads past, I've posted links to various songs. What a Wonderful World. God Bless the USA. The National Anthem.
I didn't today/tonight because I detected a very strong anti-American presence.
I sang God Bless America tonight. Led by an old scouter with a magnificent voice.
God Bless the Cub Scouts.
| 836 |
Racer X Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:30:20pm |
Man I'm really seeing a hatred towards America and our military.
The mask has slipped clear off tonight - and what's underneath is ugly.
I'm out.
| 837 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:30:23pm |
re: #812 LudwigVanQuixote
No actually I gave links... want some more:
OK...
Here's some spanish inquisition fro you.
[Link: www3.interscience.wiley.com...]
Link did not work. (my browser is set to accept cookies)
| 839 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:30:41pm |
re: #823 webevintage
Goodwin's Law yet?
OT, but in local Arkansas news it seems you can get the local deputy to come out and use a Taser on your kid if they are a brat who refuses to take a shower.
[Link: www.myeyewitnessnews.com...]
Arkansas.
Classy...
Heh...spanking is child abuse. However, if you need your child disciplined, just call the police and they'll come out and tase your kid for you.
| 840 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:30:50pm |
re: #832 J.S.
Not bad. Cool and overcast with light rain. I love fall.
| 841 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:31:23pm |
re: #821 tradewind
Ship 'em home.
We can even pay the freight, if you think that's the right thing to do.///
Yes, people who are innocent of any crime except for getting on the wrong side of a relative, people we took for terrorists in error, people we held for years and years - they deserve nothing but a plane-ride.
That's not the justice I thought we had, here in the USA.
| 842 |
Liberally Conservative Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:32:38pm |
re: #841 Cato the Elder
Yes, people who are innocent of any crime except for getting on the wrong side of a relative, people we took for terrorists in error, people we held for years and years - they deserve nothing but a plane-ride.
That's not the justice I thought we had, here in the USA.
Offering bounties for terrorists wasn't our smartest action : (.
| 843 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:32:48pm |
re: #621 lostlakehiker
This thinking ignores some very pertinent realities. Rapists etc. do not present a systematic threat to the nation. Disclosure of the means by which one rapist was caught will not endanger others. Rapists still at large do not get together and arrange hits on the detectives who caught some convicted rapist. In situations where organized crime presents a systematic, organized threat to the State, nations such as Italy have convened special courts with secret judges and witnesses, because without such proceedings it is impossible to break the mafia.
War is different from `crime and punishment'. In war, the escape of any enemy represents a real danger to the lives of our fighting men. In war, it really doesn't matter that we distinguish carefully between especially important enemy combatants and those whose role is merely that of placing mines or scouting out our positions. We can with clean conscience kill both types as opportunity arises, right there on the battlefield. And if we can take them prisoner instead, they become at best POW's. For those who organized such things as 9/11, they have no rights under any international agreement and their rights under the Constitution and precedent in U.S. law are minimal. Captured German spies were tried before secret military tribunals and executed. Britain handled its captured German spies with more dispatch, killing those who wouldn't turn and help British intelligence, and without much in the way of formalities. Almost nowhere in the world are spies and saboteurs given much consideration. If they are permitted to live, it will only be because they may have some use providing insight into enemy methods, or because they may some day be exchanged.
Now, the administration proposes to stage a trial in which we must either acquiesce in their acquittal because some civilian nicety was not observed, or hand over intelligence that will be more damaging to our cause than the release of the captured terrorist.
What can Obama have been thinking? It must have been a purely political calculation, because the most cursory thought about the reality of trials and secrets would have disclosed to him and his staff that his decision must have lamentable consequences. For us, if not for him.
Can someone explain to me, without hysterics, why this problem did not pose itself in the Moussaoui case? I understand the issue of where they were picked up, but the problems above seem to apply in both cases.
| 844 |
Gearhead Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:32:49pm |
re: #817 yesandno
I do think part of what the deal is that they want to describe "illegal" behaviors not in the realms of the terrorists...they wish to describe the illegal behaviors of the Bush administration and then let others indict them for war crimes. I hope I am wrong.
Yup. A different, if not necessarily new, species of show trial.
| 845 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:32:50pm |
re: #841 Cato the Elder
Yes, people who are innocent of any crime except for getting on the wrong side of a relative, people we took for terrorists in error, people we held for years and years - they deserve nothing but a plane-ride.
That's not the justice I thought we had, here in the USA.
Who was innocent?
| 846 |
WindHorse Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:33:00pm |
Cato, for an elder... you certainly haven't learned very much.
| 847 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:33:16pm |
re: #840 Killgore Trout
Do you still have trees with leaves on them? (here the leaves have all been blown off...I'm still looking for a scientific article about the variables involved in leaf color change...)
| 848 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:33:44pm |
re: #778 LudwigVanQuixote
A real fight. People hate that I keep pointing out how Americans used to be proud that we stood for the rule of law.
They really hate that all those people we were taught that we were better than did things like hold people indefinitely without trial and torture.
They hate the fact that they are defending the same sorts of things that the SS and the Khmer Rouge and the Japanese did.
They really hate having it pointed out to them.
The same sorts of things are a rather small sample. The comparison is miles apart and for the most part the SS and the Khemer Rouge would kill innocent civilians with either a Luger or a blow to the head with a hammer.
The Imperialist Japanese armies were known in some cases to have practiced cannibalism with POWs in which they would not kill their victims but keep them alive in a pit so that it can sustain their tissue for their consumption. They were also known for decapitations and the skinning of live prisoners. The officers involved with the cannibalism cases were executed following trial after the war.
Going back on how well we treated POWs in WWII that is true for the German prisoners. There were little if any Japanese prisoners for a variety of reasons. One of the ironies of the German POWs in America was that at the time, these German prisoners were treated better than blacks in America.
| 850 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:34:06pm |
Man, this Ludwig is one funny guy! Great schtick! Glad I dropped in to catch his act.
| 851 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:34:47pm |
re: #815 NJDhockeyfan
I can't keep quiet anymore. You are a most despicable person to compare anyone to those brutal regimes. Shame on you. You disgust me.
Agreed, to compare the waterboarding of a few terrorists who flew planes full of civilians into buildings full of civilians with the express purpose of gaining actionable intelligence to thwart more such attacks, to the sort of real torture done by the SS Gestapo and Pol Pot is bizarre, disgusting and shows no sense of proportion.
One can make a rational argument that enhanced interrogation such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation, and such are a type of torture, using the most mild sense of the word, but to equate this with what the Nazis did is simply ignorant.
| 853 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:34:49pm |
re: #806 webevintage
Sounds yummy.
Tonight I broke out the deep fryer and made fish and chips.
Pain in the ass, but so, so good.
It 'twas yummy! Fish and chips is even yummier, but every time I attempt to relive the experience at home isn't like the real thing; sounds like you had better success with it. Fortunately, I have this place close to where I usually am, so I can cheat and eat the real (if somewhat pricey) thing!
| 855 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:35:16pm |
re: #830 Alouette
There was this little incident at Sand Creek, Colorado.
I realize you mean well Alouette but the death toll for that was in the hundreds. The death toll of the khmer purely from execution was 100,000s. Torture and murder was a full time job for some. Same with the Japanese, same with the SS. These weren't one day massacres. So I state again, America has never had death factories like LVQ so crassly suggests.
| 856 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:35:35pm |
re: #843 SanFranciscoZionist
Can someone explain to me, without hysterics, why this problem did not pose itself in the Moussaoui case? I understand the issue of where they were picked up, but the problems above seem to apply in both cases.
For me, it mostly is about where they were picked up. Anyone picked up as an enemy combatant has no civil rights. I do not care about their civil rights.
| 857 |
borgcube Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:35:52pm |
re: #827 tradewind
You eat rice. Pol Pot ate rice. Therefore tradewind=Pol Pot. You're the same. Well, except that you're alive and everything else. But we're on to you and we've removed our glasses so you can't spot us.
| 858 |
Mich-again Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:36:18pm |
re: #808 BryanS
We should have bombed with impunity until the Taliban voluntarily surrendered Obama and gang.
Was that a Freudian typo?
| 859 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:36:21pm |
Ludwig: apparently you and I are to go off and make out in a corner.
Instead, I propose (hnn-nnh-nhh - he said "propose") that we both go to bed (hnn-nnh-nhh - he said "bed") and leave the flag-waving Jingoists to their blood-feast. I, at least, am done for the night.
| 860 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:37:04pm |
re: #841 Cato the Elder
If you're alone, call 911. If not, get whoever is there to apply direct pressure to stop that bleeding heart.///
| 861 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:37:05pm |
re: #843 SanFranciscoZionist
(Do you really think that a Moussauoi would have been water-boarded, subjected to interrogations without the presence of a lawyer, given no Miranda rights (including the right to remain silent) -- etc, etc, etc. Now consider the cases of some of the detainees -- OK? Have you heard or read about "renditions?" have you? Just try to imagine for a moment the completely different circumstances.)
| 862 |
WindHorse Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:37:19pm |
re: #859 Cato the Elder
I, for one, knew that two weeks ago.
| 863 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:37:20pm |
re: #859 Cato the Elder
Ludwig: apparently you and I are to go off and make out in a corner.
Instead, I propose (hnn-nnh-nhh - he said "propose") that we both go to bed (hnn-nnh-nhh - he said "bed") and leave the flag-waving Jingoists to their blood-feast. I, at least, am done for the night.
Its so tiring being a martyr. Sleep well sweet prince.
| 864 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:37:22pm |
re: #855 McSpiff
I realize you mean well Alouette but the death toll for that was in the hundreds. The death toll of the khmer purely from execution was 100,000s. Torture and murder was a full time job for some. Same with the Japanese, same with the SS. These weren't one day massacres. So I state again, America has never had death factories like LVQ so crassly suggests.
The total body count under the Khmer regime was in the millions. Chomsky will quibble about whether it was 3 million or 4 million.
| 865 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:37:39pm |
re: #845 NJDhockeyfan
Who was innocent?
The ones we "caught" with bounties who did nothing but piss off a friend or two. We scooped up hundreds of them. Have you really not been following the news?
| 866 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:38:07pm |
re: #847 J.S.
Most of the leaves have dropped here. Pear tree is almost barren and my bamboo sheds about 1/4 of its leaves this time of year. My fig tree has dropped most of its unripened fruit but is still holding on to most of its leaves for some reason.
| 867 |
right_wing2 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:38:34pm |
The internment camps during WWII were wrong because these were innocent American citizens. They'd committed no crimes. They weren't attacking fellow Americans with bombs, guns, knives, IED's or bomb belts.
KSM and his fellow whackos are NOT subject to the Geneva Convention, any more than the Nazis who slipped in during WWII were. The Nazis were (rightly) convicted by a military tribunal and executed.
To allow KSM access to our court system simply opens us up to the abuse of our judicial system by a smart attorney, probably affiliated with the ACLU or some other extreme left wing organization, to have the case dismissed because of allegations of 'torture' or lack of Miranda rights or 'railroading'.
| 869 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:38:40pm |
re: #826 MandyManners
In threads past, I've posted links to various songs. What a Wonderful World. God Bless the USA. The National Anthem.
I didn't today/tonight because I detected a very strong anti-American presence.
Yeah, well, fuck you, bratwusrt, and the sausage you rode in here on.
| 870 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:38:50pm |
re: #859 Cato the Elder
More insults and snark from the league leader.
| 871 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:38:57pm |
re: #865 Cato the Elder
The ones we "caught" with bounties who did nothing but piss off a friend or two. We scooped up hundreds of them. Have you really not been following the news?
Have you? Hundreds have been released. Or are you suggesting the KSM should have simply turned down his TV one night. Or does ego float you even over the entire intelligence community.
| 872 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:39:22pm |
re: #865 Cato the Elder
I thought you were done for the night. Or was that just empty offerings of hope and change like Obama?
| 873 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:39:26pm |
re: #865 Cato the Elder
Those are not the subject of the poll. The military hearings have already released some who fit your description. Seems to me that we can do more of the same without fear of the law or our morals.
| 874 |
Liberally Conservative Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:39:30pm |
re: #845 NJDhockeyfan
Who was innocent?
There were thousands of people at Guantanamo Bay over the course of the Bush Admin. Many were hardcore terrorists who were planning attacks or were fighting NATO forces in Afghanistan. Many were sympathizers who would fight if they could, but we captured them before they did so. And many were people who were delivered to us because we offered a sizable bounty for terrorists, like the Uighurs.
The third group is the one we're trying to give to other countries, and other countries are afraid of the PR fallout of "the government is letting dangerous possible terrorists live in our great country". To put it as simply as I can : (. It's a shitty situation, and we released hundreds of prisoners when the Guantanamo tribunals didn't have enough evidence to say that these people were would-be terrorists. Many more died while in Gitmo, because of the difficulty of getting doctors with the requisite security clearance.
| 875 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:39:37pm |
re: #866 Killgore Trout
wow..Fig and pear trees...you're so lucky to live in such a place! (I can just imagine...)
| 876 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:40:12pm |
| 877 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:40:20pm |
re: #869 MandyManners
Yeah, well, fuck you, bratwusrt, and the sausage you rode in here on.
You quoted yourself, Mandy. What did he say to annoy you?
| 878 |
Mich-again Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:40:28pm |
re: #843 SanFranciscoZionist
Can someone explain to me, without hysterics, why this problem did not pose itself in the Moussaoui case? I understand the issue of where they were picked up, but the problems above seem to apply in both cases.
Well in that case we bombed the house he was in. And then there the soldiers moved in to evaluate the mission and they found Zarkawi injured but not quite dead yet. And yes there were some mumblings that we didn't do enough to try to save his life. I think thats nuts. One minute you are justified trying to kill him, but as soon as he is injured in the attack, the mission somehow is supposed to change to try to save him. ? I would be fine if the soldiers sent in to evaluate the situation after the bombing just pulled the trigger on a wounded Zarkawi. Wasn't the whole point of the bombing mission to kill him?
| 879 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:40:32pm |
re: #843 SanFranciscoZionist
Can someone explain to me, without hysterics, why this problem did not pose itself in the Moussaoui case? I understand the issue of where they were picked up, but the problems above seem to apply in both cases.
Moussaoui was arrested in the US by the FBI on an immigration violation. He was suspected of intending to commit crimes but there was no evidence that he had already done so, except for immigration violations, thus it was appropriate to try him in a civil court.
| 880 |
SpaceJesus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:40:46pm |
why is mandymanners talking to herself again
| 881 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:40:47pm |
re: #875 J.S.
I even have Kiwis here. They're delicious this time of year. Very sweet.
| 882 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:41:03pm |
re: #872 TheMatrix31
I thought you were done for the night. Or was that just empty offerings of hope and change like Obama?
I am now. Go fight the Matrix, Matrix.
| 883 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:41:05pm |
re: #855 McSpiff
I realize you mean well Alouette but the death toll for that was in the hundreds. The death toll of the khmer purely from execution was 100,000s. Torture and murder was a full time job for some. Same with the Japanese, same with the SS. These weren't one day massacres. So I state again, America has never had death factories like LVQ so crassly suggests.
I believe the number is close to two million. Quite a difference from Sand Creek, Colorado.
| 884 |
tradewind Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:41:38pm |
re: #871 McSpiff
Hundreds have been released
And every day we get reports that the very persons who have been released are right back at it. You'd think we would learn.
| 885 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:41:49pm |
re: #881 Killgore Trout
I even have Kiwis here. They're delicious this time of year. Very sweet.
How's your neighbor doing?
| 886 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:41:59pm |
re: #864 Alouette
The total body count under the Khmer regime was in the millions. Chomsky will quibble about whether it was 3 million or 4 million.
O I know. But I was quoting the execution number. I won't compare artificial famine to a massacre. Purely for an apples to apples reasons.
At least 200,000 people were executed by the Khmer Rouge[1] (while estimates of the total number of deaths resulting from Khmer Rouge policies, including disease and starvation, range from 1.4 to 2.2 million out of a population of around 7 million).[2] In 1979, Vietnam invaded and toppled the Khmer Rouge regime, which was officially called Democratic Kampuchea.
| 887 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:42:27pm |
Ludwig and Cato may just be the new Martin and Lewis. Great stuff!
| 888 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:42:46pm |
re: #802 LudwigVanQuixote
Well then don't dishonor his memory be defending the things that the SS would do.
Thank you for instructing me in the proper observance of obsequies for my ancestral dead. Thank you so very kindly for showing me that he whose memory I am not to dishonor by supporting what the SS would do was himself a low and despicable man for executing them in the field without trial or even benefit of counsel. Evil men such as he then went on to build this vast and deeply flawed nation into the imperfect and oppressive union it was until the 1960's, and then lapsed back into once more during the long slumbering of liberty until the advent of Thy birth.
You cannot fathom that someone can disagree with you on any point whatsoever, so assured are you in your godlike intellect and keen moral powers, and so you assimilate disagreement to evil. In so doing, you diminish the meaning of the very evil you seek to use as a club against those who disagree with you.
I stand by now to witness the next demonstration of your lack of couth, and wonder in which way you will disgrace yourself, your education, and the values you claim to uphold.
| 890 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:43:26pm |
re: #879 Bagua
yes. the whole difference between FBI and CIA -- two completely different agencies there. The latter is to obtain intelligence info -- think they use "please, sir?" or "pretty, pretty, please?"
| 891 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:43:30pm |
re: #882 Cato the Elder
I am now. Go fight the Matrix, Matrix.
If this were The Matrix, then he could bend reality to open your eyes to the threat.
| 893 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:43:56pm |
re: #869 MandyManners
Yeah, well, fuck you, bratwusrt, and the sausage you rode in here on.
Always with the classy talk, and always with the misspellings.
Mandy, you are a rock of consistency in a shifting sea.
And now, for real, good night!
| 894 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:44:19pm |
re: #889 keithgabryelski
And, Does that include your contribution?
/just curious
| 895 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:44:28pm |
| 896 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:44:47pm |
| 897 |
drogheda Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:44:51pm |
| 898 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:44:52pm |
re: #889 keithgabryelski
For sure I own 70% of those. And I'm damn fuckin' proud too.
| 899 |
Sheila Broflovski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:44:54pm |
re: #883 NJDhockeyfan
I believe the number is close to two million. Quite a difference from Sand Creek, Colorado.
But, but, but, Ward Churchill said that the U.S. committed genocide against his people!
/but his people were the ones doing the genocide
BTW the officer, John Chivington, who committed the Sand Creek massacre was put on trial by a military tribunal for committing atrocities against civilians. I don't remember what the verdict was and the ambien is kicking in so I have to go beddy bye.
| 900 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:45:30pm |
re: #884 tradewind
And every day we get reports that the very persons who have been released are right back at it. You'd think we would learn.
I'm sure some have. I'm sure some were innocent and simply went home. I'd bet some were innocent, held for years, and then attacked our guys. Believe me, if I was wrongly held for years without charge, I'd be ripping pissed. See also:
[Link: www.cbc.ca...]
All Afghan detainees likely tortured: diplomatAll detainees transferred by Canadians to Afghan prisons were likely tortured by Afghan officials and many of the prisoners were innocent, says a former senior diplomat with Canada's mission in Afghanistan.
| 901 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:45:31pm |
re: #889 keithgabryelski
Thread "fuck" count: 79 and rising.
Did you actually go through and count them? Or is there an incredible CJ-designed tool that I just don't know about yet?
| 902 |
webevintage Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:46:23pm |
re: #853 Surabaya Stew
It 'twas yummy! Fish and chips is even yummier, but every time I attempt to relive the experience at home isn't like the real thing; sounds like you had better success with it. Fortunately, I have this place close to where I usually am, so I can cheat and eat the real (if somewhat pricey) thing!
Well, I've never been to the UK so I'm not sure what the real thing would be like.
BUT it is all about hot oil, cooking the (hand cut fries) for about 6 min in the microwave then frying twice (once before the fish and then again after the fish) and a good batter.
Cornstarch helps.
| 903 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:46:53pm |
| 904 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:46:59pm |
re: #885 Gus 802
How's your neighbor doing?
She's actually doing very very well. I hadn't seen her for a while and was getting worried. A few weeks ago I saw her unloading her car with groceries and she was definitely moving better, didn't have to use her scooter and looks like her lost a good deal of weight. Maybe 100 pounds or more, though she still has a long way to go.
| 906 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:48:13pm |
re: #901 Surabaya Stew
Did you actually go through and count them? Or is there an incredible CJ-designed tool that I just don't know about yet?
i use google crome -- it has the count in the find box.
| 907 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:48:19pm |
re: #901 Surabaya Stew
Hey its the drinking game like hearing "fuck" in the show Deadwood, then take a shot. Everybody gets plastered.
| 908 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:48:22pm |
re: #888 Guanxi88
You cannot fathom that someone can disagree with you on any point whatsoever, so assured are you in your godlike intellect and keen moral powers, and so you assimilate disagreement to evil. In so doing, you diminish the meaning of the very evil you seek to use as a club against those who disagree with you.
Spot on.
| 909 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:48:25pm |
re: #904 Killgore Trout
She's actually doing very very well. I hadn't seen her for a while and was getting worried. A few weeks ago I saw her unloading her car with groceries and she was definitely moving better, didn't have to use her scooter and looks like her lost a good deal of weight. Maybe 100 pounds or more, though she still has a long way to go.
How'd she drop so much? There's a lady where I work who's in pretty rough shape herself, and she's been casting about for suggestions.
| 910 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:48:46pm |
re: #902 webevintage
Well, I've never been to the UK so I'm not sure what the real thing would be like.
BUT it is all about hot oil, cooking the (hand cut fries) for about 6 min in the microwave then frying twice (once before the fish and then again after the fish) and a good batter.
Cornstarch helps.
Around here, I've found that Red Robin has the best Fish and Chips.
| 911 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:48:55pm |
re: #834 TheMatrix31
we are talking - essentially - strip away the emotion - about a matter of law. you just simply can not say "they don't believe in the system, therefore they don't deserve the system"...
If you apply that across the spectra it would mean a serial killer who hated lawyers would never be brought to trial because he did not believe in lawyers.
Britain suffered 40 years of terrorism at the hands of the IRA - and we tried to deal with them extrajudicially -but over and over and over again it back fired.
They did not kill 3,000 in one go but they killed many people and often - if there are legal grounds for a trial in an established court system it has to be done that way for the sake of the bigger ideals. Truth, justice and equality under the law - if you start stripping away those qualities for one class of criminal then the system itself becomes worthless - and thats what the bad guys want.
If they can change American society and bring them to believe in accepting different norms then they win.
Terrorism isn't about the dead people - it's not a body count excersise - it's bigger than that, a whole heap lot bigger than that. Terror seeks to exert change through fear - and if the system changes - like it has already - they start to win.
Discarding the big ticket items now doesn't do anyone any good later.
| 912 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:49:18pm |
re: #904 Killgore Trout
She's actually doing very very well. I hadn't seen her for a while and was getting worried. A few weeks ago I saw her unloading her car with groceries and she was definitely moving better, didn't have to use her scooter and looks like her lost a good deal of weight. Maybe 100 pounds or more, though she still has a long way to go.
Good to hear. If she's unloading her own car then it sounds like she is doing much better.
| 913 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:49:31pm |
re: #893 Cato the Elder
Always with the classy talk, and always with the misspellings.
Mandy, you are a rock of consistency in a shifting sea.
And now, for real, good night!
Sweet dreams.
| 914 |
webevintage Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:49:39pm |
re: #907 Rightwingconspirator
Hey its the drinking game like hearing "fuck" in the show Deadwood, then take a shot. Everybody gets plastered.
Deadwood, what a great show...
| 915 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:50:58pm |
re: #907 Rightwingconspirator
Hey its the drinking game like hearing "fuck" in the show Deadwood, then take a shot. Everybody gets plastered.
Deadwood's drinking game word was "cocksucker".
fuck, did I just say cocksucker?
| 916 |
SpaceJesus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:51:05pm |
re: #903 MandyManners
How are you this blessed evening?!
ok, a post to me without telling me to go fornicate with myself or urinate up a rope. what the hell?
clearly split personality disorder
| 917 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:51:18pm |
re: #800 Dark_Falcon
He doesn't have time for links. He and Cato need to finish dressing the strawman they've built. He's named "Eeevil sekirt fascist conservative" though other people just call him by his nickname "Bullshit".
I'm going to comment here that there did seem to be a partner strawman at one point, the malicious idiot liberal who cared more about the feelings of terrorists than for American lives.
| 918 |
Athens Runaway Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:51:30pm |
Why isn't there a "Ron Paul" option?
Seriously, that's the only reason LGF Polls exist.
| 919 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:52:13pm |
re: #911 wozzablog
Best case all night for the trial. Congrats! Seriously. But the gap from Al Qaeda and America as compared to the IRA... Well its a big one. To this day Britain has special anti terror laws. I would argue that's what a military tribunal does at Gitmo. Sorts out the real bad guys from mere innocents caught up or even draftees. Why assume a tribunal breaks the law or the morals?
| 920 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:52:14pm |
re: #909 Guanxi88
I think she's been getting counseling or something. I don't really know.
| 922 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:53:27pm |
re: #920 Killgore Trout
I think she's been getting counseling or something. I don't really know.
I think the lady where I work has some sorta underlying depression, but of course you can't very well tell her to go see somebody for that. It's heart-breaking to me, seeing good people destroy themselves this way.
| 923 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:53:34pm |
re: #808 BryanS
Did we have the rule of law in mind when we dropped the bomb on Japan? About the same order of magnitude in death toll. While not the same military toll, the economic toll was orders of magnitude larger. That is no less significant of an attack on our nation.
I think we should have dealt with Afghanistan like we did Japan--no, not dropping THE bomb, but we should have recognized how costly it would be to take over Afghanistan in terms of both life and treasure. We should have bombed with impunity until the Taliban voluntarily surrendered Obama and gang.
Maybe we should have instituted a draft and gone on a wartime economy footing.
And I don't think the Taliban ever had Obama.
| 924 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:53:58pm |
re: #917 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm going to comment here that there did seem to be a partner strawman at one point, the malicious idiot liberal who cared more about the feelings of terrorists than for American lives.
Point taken, though I don't think I helped build that one. Did I do so, in your opinion?
| 925 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:54:07pm |
re: #902 webevintage
Well, I've never been to the UK so I'm not sure what the real thing would be like.
BUT it is all about hot oil, cooking the (hand cut fries) for about 6 min in the microwave then frying twice (once before the fish and then again after the fish) and a good batter.
Cornstarch helps.
Never been the the UK? Historic places and glorious landscapes aside, you aren't missing much, so don't fret about it. From my recollections (from the transplanted place in Greenwich Village, not the Oxford Chippie I went to twice in 1995), everything you describe sounds accurate, except the microwave is only used to warm up the mushy peas, as the chips seems to go straight into the fryer. Double frying may have been used for them too, although I can't recall. Still, anybody who puts in the effort can duplicate the cuisine fairly well, as you seem to have done. :-)
| 926 |
WindHorse Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:54:15pm |
re: #916 SpaceJesus
whoo hoo... a couple of semesters in college and you're an expert!!
| 927 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:54:47pm |
re: #915 keithgabryelski
Hey its like Beer Pong. There are house rules. :)
| 928 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:55:49pm |
re: #891 Dark_Falcon
If this were The Matrix, then he could bend reality to open your eyes to the threat.
Yes. The threat. KSM under heavy guard in a New York courtroom, with lawyers - lawyers! - to defend him.
Run! Hide! We're all gonna die!
| 929 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:55:55pm |
re: #923 SanFranciscoZionist
Maybe we should have instituted a draft and gone on a wartime economy footing.
And I don't think the Taliban ever had Obama.
Nah...just bomb, then do some bombing, then do some more, and after that make it clear to the populace it will not stop until Osama (heh) and gang are handed over.
| 930 |
SpaceJesus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:56:15pm |
re: #926 WindHorse
whoo hoo... a couple of semesters in college and you're an expert!!
oh no, zing! wow, did you get your masters degree in sick burns with a minor in being an unfunny douche?
| 931 |
Gearhead Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:56:22pm |
| 932 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:56:33pm |
re: #923 SanFranciscoZionist
No draft needed, and we DID go on a wartime economy. Blackwater, Raytheon...
| 933 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:56:56pm |
re: #928 Cato the Elder
Yes. The threat. KSM under heavy guard in a New York courtroom, with lawyers - lawyers! - to defend him.
Run! Hide! We're all gonna die!
Worst. Thread. Flounce. Ever.
(In all fairness, I was the previous title holder)
| 934 |
Athens Runaway Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:57:00pm |
Any flounces? I've come in too late to join in the discussion, but poking a dead body is fine by me.
| 935 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:57:02pm |
| 936 |
MandyManners Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:57:04pm |
| 937 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:57:06pm |
re: #843 SanFranciscoZionist
Can someone explain to me, without hysterics, why this problem did not pose itself in the Moussaoui case? I understand the issue of where they were picked up, but the problems above seem to apply in both cases.
Moussaoui was kind enough to represent himself and admit to his guilt in the course of the trial through courtroom outbursts. At the end of the trial he withdrew his defense and admitted guilt to all charges.
Prosecution never had to deal with anything thorny other than his request for witnesses who were AQ members.
| 938 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:57:09pm |
re: #928 Cato the Elder
Considering that's not even remotely what he or anyone else is insinuating is the issue in this whole fiasco, fuck off and go to bed already like you said so long ago.
| 939 |
WindHorse Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:57:11pm |
re: #930 SpaceJesus
if the shoe fits... by all means... wear it.
| 940 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:57:37pm |
re: #856 BryanS
For me, it mostly is about where they were picked up. Anyone picked up as an enemy combatant has no civil rights. I do not care about their civil rights.
Why should someone picked up as an enemy combatant on American soil get those civil rights?
| 941 |
Gearhead Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:57:42pm |
re: #907 Rightwingconspirator
Hey its the drinking game like hearing "fuck" in the show Deadwood, then take a shot. Everybody gets plastered.
More like Shot-a-Minute on this thread...
| 942 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:57:53pm |
re: #935 Surabaya Stew
Just type in the word and count, I guess.
| 943 |
webevintage Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:57:57pm |
re: #915 keithgabryelski
Deadwood's drinking game word was "cocksucker".
fuck, did I just say cocksucker?
Yes, yes you did.
With that I am off to begin my nightly ritual of reading for an hour (I finished re-reading an old Dresden Files last night and will begin The Suspicions of Mr. Whicher: A Shocking Murder and the Undoing of a Great Victorian Detective topped off with an Ambien...it is a wonder drug.
(and no I do not sleepwalk and have crazy, wild sex with my husband after taking one...but he wishes I would ;-) )
Good night all...
| 944 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:58:25pm |
re: #928 Cato the Elder
Yes. The threat. KSM under heavy guard in a New York courtroom, with lawyers - lawyers! - to defend him.
Run! Hide! We're all gonna die!
re: #697 Dark_Falcon
That's not all KSM wants. Like the kamikaze pilots of WWII, he wants to die in a way that inflicts maximum damage on us. He wants a trial where he can use the rules of evidence to demonize the CIA and the military and drive the press into attacking those who have kept us safe. He thinks he can use a trial to weaken us, thus making things easier for his successors. I hate KSM with a white-hot passion, but he is a very good planner. And right now Holder and Obama are doing exactly what he wants them to do.
| 945 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:58:39pm |
re: #906 keithgabryelski
i use google crome -- it has the count in the find box.
Haven't downloaded it yet. Do you find it useful and/or reliable? While I'm happy with Safari, am always open to new and better things.
| 946 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:59:12pm |
re: #764 Obdicut
We put people in camps in that war too, the Japanese, our own citizens-- just like the Nazis did. We didn't kill any of them, though a few of them died from medical conditions that definitely wouldn't have occurred outside the camps. Many of them were malnourished.And yet we weren't the SS.
It is simply bizarre to make any comparison between the Nazi death camps and the American internment camps during WWII.
You should read a few history books, or just look at the pictures.
This sort of Ludwig moral equivalence is troubling. Is an axe murderer similar to a brain surgeon? After all they both cut people.
| 947 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:59:16pm |
re: #943 webevintage
(and no I do not [...] have crazy, wild sex with my husband after taking one... )
That's not what he says.
| 948 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:59:51pm |
re: #934 Athens Runaway
Any flounces? I've come in too late to join in the discussion, but poking a dead body is fine by me.
No flounces, just a lot of liberal BS getting thrown around with conservatives trying to clean it up.
| 949 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:59:57pm |
re: #861 J.S.
(Do you really think that a Moussauoi would have been water-boarded, subjected to interrogations without the presence of a lawyer, given no Miranda rights (including the right to remain silent) -- etc, etc, etc. Now consider the cases of some of the detainees -- OK? Have you heard or read about "renditions?" have you? Just try to imagine for a moment the completely different circumstances.)
Try to clarify here. We can try a man arrested on US soil in a civilian court because we Mirandized him, and didn't waterboard him?
| 950 |
Mich-again Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:59:58pm |
re: #928 Cato the Elder
The lawyers don't scare me one bit. They are predictable. But who knows what kind of jury there will be? You never know till its over. Or is this a case where there is no jury. I'm a bit out of the loop. Had bigger things to worry about lately
| 951 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 8:59:58pm |
re: #907 Rightwingconspirator
Hey its the drinking game like hearing "fuck" in the show Deadwood, then take a shot. Everybody gets plastered.
I suck at drinking, can't we just pretend its like singing "99 buttles of beer on the wall" instead?
| 952 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:00:41pm |
re: #928 Cato the Elder
Yes. The threat. KSM under heavy guard in a New York courtroom, with lawyers - lawyers! - to defend him.
Run! Hide! We're all gonna die!
Why is this more appropriate than a military tribunal? You've made it clear that you think a trial is necessary, but why not a military one?
| 953 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:00:42pm |
re: #948 Dark_Falcon
Microcosm of the way things work in general.
| 954 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:00:57pm |
I posted this last week. It's a story about how FDR treated terrorists. I doubt he would be supporting Obama & Holder's decision to bring enemy combatants to our country for trial.
How terrorists were dealt with by FDR
Excerpts from Roosevelt's Secret War: FDR and World War II Espionage, Joseph E. Persico, 2001.
...Three days after all eight saboteurs were in custody, FDR sent Biddle a memo making clear his expectations. "The two Americans are guilty of treason," he told the attorney general. "I do not see how they can offer any adequate defense. . . it seems to me that the death penalty is almost obligatory." As for the six German citizens, "They were apprehended in civilian clothes. This is an absolute parallel of the Case of Major [John] Andre in the Revolution and of Nathan Hale. Both of these men were hanged." The President hammered home his point once more: "The death penalty is called for by usage and by the extreme gravity of the war aim and the very existence of our American govemment." Biddle had never quite overcome his awe in dealing with FDR. Still, the nation's chief law enforcement official was troubled, finding himself trapped between the President's questionable pressure and his own reverence for the law. The Germans had been apprehended so quickly, Biddle recognized, that "they had not committed any act of sabotage. Probably an indictment for attempted sabotage would not have been sustained in a civil court on the grounds that the preparations and landings were not close enough to the planned acts of sabotage to constitute attempt. If a man buys a pistol, intending murder, that is not an attempt at murder." In a civilian court the Germans might at best be convicted of conspiracy, which Biddle estimated would carry a maximum sentence of three years. This outcome, he knew, would never satisfy Roosevelt.
FDR essentially took charge of the case. He told Biddle that he wanted the eight agents tried, not in a civilian court, but by a military tribunal, which he himself would appoint. They had forfeited any right to a civilian trial, as Roosevelt put it, because "[t]hese men had penetrated battlelines strung on land along our two coasts and guarded on the sea by our destroyers, and were waging battle within our country." They fell under the Law of War. A military tribunal would be quick, not subject to the protracted appeals procedures of civilian courts. It would not be hog-tied by the criminal courts' exacting rules of evidence. It could impose the death sentence, not as the civil courts required, by a unanimous verdict, but by a two-thirds vote. A military tribunal offered the advantages and the assured outcome that the President wanted. A civilian court was out of the question. FDR told Biddle, "I want one thing clearly understood, Francis: I won't give them up . . . I won't hand them over to any United States Marshall armed with a writ of habeas corpus. Understand!" Averell Harriman, FDR's special envoy to Moscow, had once described Roosevelt's "Dutch jaw -- and when that Dutch jaw was set you couldn't move him." Biddle practically felt the jaw's thrust, and dutifully followed the President's instructions. Conviction should be simple, Biddle promised FDR, since "[t]he major violation of the Law of War is crossing behind the lines of a belligerent to commit hostile acts without being in uniform."
[snip]
| 955 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:00:58pm |
| 956 |
Athens Runaway Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:01:07pm |
On a happier, OT note:
Mary Cheney (Dick Cheney's daughter) and her partner just had a a healthy baby boy.
| 957 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:01:36pm |
On a much happier, totally OT note:
Milk chocolate dove is tasty.
| 958 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:01:38pm |
re: #945 Surabaya Stew
Haven't downloaded it yet. Do you find it useful and/or reliable? While I'm happy with Safari, am always open to new and better things.
It is my main browser, now -- firefox was my favorite before this, but it has cpu spinning issues.
I've used safari but a lot of websites don't work perfectly with it -- so I stopped.
Chrome is good -- but it isn't worth switching if you have something you know you like.
| 959 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:01:58pm |
re: #942 TheMatrix31
Just type in the word and count, I guess.
Must be getting old; it works, but it's Apple-F on a mac of course! Up to 91 f-bombs so far...
| 960 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:01:59pm |
re: #956 Athens Runaway
On a happier, OT note:
Mary Cheney (Dick Cheney's daughter) and her partner just had a a healthy baby boy.
How was that possible, cloning?
| 961 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:02:38pm |
re: #851 Bagua
Agreed, to compare the waterboarding of a few terrorists who flew planes full of civilians into buildings full of civilians
Really, I thought those terrorists were blown up.
What we have here are five people accused of being the masterminds. I do not know if they are. The government has not made its case. Ever hear of innocent until proven guilty?
Now in the case of KSM I do know he murdered Daniel Pearl. I do not know a thing about the others.
Or does the idea of having the government make it's case before we kill people not appeal to you?
And that question goes to the rest of you who are being all emotional about this too.
God forbid we act like civilized people. Lynch mobs are very outdated.
| 963 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:03:08pm |
re: #929 BryanS
Nah...just bomb, then do some bombing, then do some more, and after that make it clear to the populace it will not stop until Osama (heh) and gang are handed over.
That's right. Even though he's most likely dead, and his gang scattered to the four winds, or at best he's in Pakistan hiding out with the ISI, let's bomb, and bomb, and bomb some more, because it feels so good!
| 964 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:04:08pm |
re: #958 keithgabryelski
Thanks for the ctr+f tip, it works with FF also, no word count but it does have the next/previous feature, very handy.
You're back on my buddy list. :)
| 965 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:04:39pm |
re: #948 Dark_Falcon
No flounces, just a lot of liberal BS getting thrown around with conservatives trying to clean it up.
that is poor way to position this thread.
There have been attacks (and some vile) on both sides.
And a lot of "trying to claim to be conservative" conservative views have been thrown around and clean up by liberals.
Because defending the rule of law IS a conservative issue.
/but yeah, there has been shit flying from all sides.
| 966 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:04:41pm |
| 967 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:05:14pm |
re: #959 Surabaya Stew
Yeah but it's small tactical F bombs. One at a time. I think Mandy has the nuke-used elsewhere some time ago- 36 in one post. There was nothing left but melted glass on a large area.
| 968 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:05:19pm |
re: #935 Surabaya Stew
Really? I must be dense...how does that work?
Hold down the control key and then hit the F key, the "Find" box will pop up, type in the word you want to find on the page and it will usually go directly to the first instance of that word on the page. Hit the "next" button to go to the next time it appears repeat as necessary.
Some browsers display the number of times it appears, some don't and you have to count them one by one.
| 969 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:05:35pm |
re: #919 Rightwingconspirator
thanks.
When you live under the shadow of attack everyday -from within - from people who look and sound like you - who planted bombs in public waste baskets that kill and maim small children.
An organisation that funnels innocent people into a killing zone by issuing a "warning"... the IRA were not some clowns wearing green felt hats and sporting shelidhs.
Britain has got tough anti-terror laws, but the threat from Al-Qaeda has made them even tougher than before. Our period of cvillian pretrial detention is longer than any democracy - and i don't like that one bit - as well as myriad other offences brought in as hideous catchalls like "possessing materials likely to be useful to terrorists"... believe me when i say that includes any university professor with pamphlets or any tourist with a map anywhere in the country. Those are implications of our laws - they stink - but it's what there is.
America has lived with this 8 years - Britain 40, when you are the one living under threat of your life that long what does it matter to your own dead corpse how many went with you?
| 970 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:05:39pm |
re: #958 keithgabryelski
It is my main browser, now -- firefox was my favorite before this, but it has cpu spinning issues.
I've used safari but a lot of websites don't work perfectly with it -- so I stopped.
Chrome is good -- but it isn't worth switching if you have something you know you like.
Thanks for the advice! Have also heard praise from other parties, and Safari does have a bad habit of hanging, on a number of sites. Looks like it's worth it to give Chrome a try when its time to upgrade, so when the time comes next year, I'll give it a shot.
| 971 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:06:23pm |
re: #949 SanFranciscoZionist
Try to clarify here. We can try a man arrested on US soil in a civilian court because we Mirandized him, and didn't waterboard him?
The process from arrest to trial for civilians is well established. If we had wished to eventually try KSM in civilian court, we should have done so from the start. We have clearly treated him as an enemy combatant. To switch streams now simply does not make sense. Issues that were not relevant years ago such as Miranda are now important. The military are not trained in civilian law. They do things differently. Not better, not worse. These are not, have never, and will never be law enforcement agencies. We risk jeopardizing all the hard work done simply because Obama found GWB's approach too militaristic. It's almost an issue of ex post facto in my mind. Not exactly, but of a similar nature.
| 972 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:06:26pm |
re: #961 LudwigVanQuixote
KSM has repeatedly said he was the mastermind.
| 973 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:07:13pm |
re: #970 Surabaya Stew
I have been experimenting with Seamonkey. Its very clear in the fonts. I'm about to flip to it now as this big thread is taxing my FF.
| 974 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:07:22pm |
| 975 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:08:03pm |
re: #967 Rightwingconspirator
Yeah but it's small tactical F bombs. One at a time. I think Mandy has the nuke-used elsewhere some time ago- 36 in one post. There was nothing left but melted glass on a large area.
Must have been quite a mess to clean up! I hope no friendships were permanently damaged.
| 976 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:08:23pm |
re: #964 Bagua
Thanks for the ctr+f tip, it works with FF also, no word count but it does have the next/previous feature, very handy.
You're back on my buddy list. :)
From "fuck you" to buddy in 14 hours ... excellent.
| 977 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:08:58pm |
re: #974 TheMatrix31
You don't think you'd say you were the mastermind of the fall of the Roman Empire if you were waterboarded?
| 978 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:09:16pm |
re: #972 Dark_Falcon
KSM has repeatedly said he was the mastermind.
He was waterboarded! The CIA are bloodthirsty torturers! He was forced to confess!
| 979 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:09:37pm |
re: #961 LudwigVanQuixote
Really, I thought those terrorists were blown up.
What we have here are five people accused of being the masterminds. I do not know if they are. The government has not made its case. Ever hear of innocent until proven guilty?
[...]
Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law doesn't work so well when you are dealing with terrorist based in the lawless tribal areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
I trust our military and intelligence services to get these things right, sometimes they make mistakes or have collateral damage but they are honourable men and they have my confidence.
I take it you also disagree passionately with the Israeli practice of targeted killings of terrorists who are planning attacks on civilians. Do you consider them equivalent with SS Nazis as well? Are they also innocent until proven guilty in a court of law?
| 980 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:10:31pm |
re: #967 Rightwingconspirator
Yeah but it's small tactical F bombs. One at a time. I think Mandy has the nuke-used elsewhere some time ago- 36 in one post. There was nothing left but melted glass on a large area.
Yeah. Because Mandy telling someone to fuck himself is the most potent argument ever seen at LGF.
| 981 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:10:36pm |
re: #962 Athens Runaway
Or two bottles of wine and a special friend.
| 982 |
wee fury Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:10:37pm |
re: #972 Dark_Falcon
KSM has repeatedly said he was the mastermind.
But, of course, he cannot be believed. Rule of law, you know.
BIG BOLD / here.
| 983 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:10:39pm |
re: #975 Surabaya Stew
Must have been quite a mess to clean up! I hope no friendships were permanently damaged.
I can't answer that one yet. Whatever you believe, I'm certain that the nasty atmosphere on this thread is going to stain things for a while. And I am scared of what's going to happen when Charles sees the flame wars in here.
| 984 |
Curt Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:10:47pm |
re: #757 LudwigVanQuixote
I thought that was rude the first time.
Very simple buddy. Long after my Grandparents fought the Germans and the Japanese, they were really keen to poitnt out that America was better because of the rule of law.
Tehey were proud that we did not torture like the Germans or the Japanese. They were proud to stand for the notion that all men have certain rights - like the right to a fair and speedy trial.
You have missed a lot of history. The History Channel has movies of Japanese, leaving the caves, after being chased out with flame throwers and being shot as they emerged. They weren't apparently holding weapons, but then again, they were known to fight to the last, and try to boobytrap themselves with hand grenades.
Right? I guess you had to be there. OTOH, read "Flyboys" and find out how the Japanese sometimes murdered out POWs and ate them. Yep, true. First person reports and all in there.
And I'm sure no one in your family would have reacted with rage after the many men were machine gunned in the snow at Malmedy?
Sure..they all would come home and tell you they didn't take prisoners in the heat of battle, and sometimes, even had some "try to escape." Yep...they were all up for telling stories that made them look like they committed criminal acts on the battle field. I suspect they just spoke of the victories and moments they had where they survived. Sort of a human condition. And, yes, good luck getting any of them still living to tell you all about how they murdered in cold blood on the battle field.
And, where in history did you read about the POWs getting "speedy trials?" Seems like they were held for the duration, after being captured on the battlefield, and they did not get criminal trials, they got war crime tribunals.
Facts, they are stubborn things. History: I didn't make it, but I've read a bit of it.
| 985 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:10:57pm |
re: #949 SanFranciscoZionist
Try to imagine that there is a battlefield and there is what's called a "firefight" (have you seen those on TV?) that's when one group has weapons and is firing -- and there's another group which is firing back...Now imagine, there's a house/compound, and there's a whole bunch of shots being exchanged...Then, low and behold, someone runs outside of the house (ie, the "terrorists") and lobs a hand grenade into a contingent of Americans, one of whom is clearly marked as a "Medic." (you know the ones which are in wars a protected person? under the rules of war, that's a designated "war crime"). The person throwing the hand grenade turns out to be a "juvenile", and his daddy winds up dead. The juvenile eventually winds up at Gitmo...Do you think that there are forensic investigators to trace out the material evidence? Do you think the "terrorist" had his Miranda rights read to him? etc, etc. Again, there is a difference between soldiers fighting in combat, vs criminals.
| 986 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:11:13pm |
re: #922 Guanxi88
It's tough to watch people struggle with that. The weight issue is really common sense. Most people could easily lose weight with a simple change of eating habits even without exercise. Depression and addiction add a whole new level of complexity. In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto really helped me to think about food differently. It's not a diet book, it's more about thinking about your food differently.
| 987 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:11:19pm |
re: #940 SanFranciscoZionist
Why should someone picked up as an enemy combatant on American soil get those civil rights?
Big difference for Moussaoui--he was on American soil when picked up by civilian authorities, first charged with immigration violations. There is legal precedent that makes that more difficult--i.e. illegal immigrants still have due process simply by their presence. Non-citizens who are living in or visiting in the US are still given those rights. If it is a foreigner, sent here as part of a terrorist attack, I would not have problem referring it to a military tribunal.
Senator Graham's questions today were on point because he was leading Holder to the point that this case has the risk of creating precedent that future war combatants could use to justify them having rights I do not wish them to have.
| 988 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:12:58pm |
| 989 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:13:00pm |
re: #973 Rightwingconspirator
I have been experimenting with Seamonkey. Its very clear in the fonts. I'm about to flip to it now as this big thread is taxing my FF.
Thats why I never moved to FF; larger sites just seemed to tax it too much. Safari does hang (or even quit unexpectedly) at weird times, but thats usually because I never closed 15 other programs or didn't empty the cache for a while. Never heard of Seamonkey, will check it out...
| 990 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:13:43pm |
re: #976 keithgabryelski
From "fuck you" to buddy in 14 hours ... excellent.
It's not healthly to bear a grudge or remain angry.
My anger is at the mass murderer who killed those thousands of innocent Americans that awful day, not those who defend his alleged rights, the later I am simply irritated and exasperated with.
| 991 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:13:48pm |
re: #972 Dark_Falcon
KSM has repeatedly said he was the mastermind.
OK fine so then his trial should go smoothly. What about the others?
| 992 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:13:52pm |
re: #959 Surabaya Stew
Must be getting old; it works, but it's Apple-F on a mac of course! Up to 91 f-bombs so far...
Fuck, fuckity, fuck, fuck, fuck.
| 993 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:14:07pm |
re: #980 Cato the Elder
Okay what is your most potent argument that military tribunals are illegal or somehow immoral in this case. Have you seen my posts in this vein tonight?
| 994 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:15:01pm |
re: #991 LudwigVanQuixote
OK fine so then his trial should go smoothly. What about the others?
He was arrested illegally, detained illegally, tortured illegally - yeah, I see no problems at all with trying him.
| 996 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:15:17pm |
re: #963 Cato the Elder
That's right. Even though he's most likely dead, and his gang scattered to the four winds, or at best he's in Pakistan hiding out with the ISI, let's bomb, and bomb, and bomb some more, because it feels so good!
That's what we should have done--instead of this global war on terrorism/nation building crap.
| 997 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:15:24pm |
re: #984 Curt
You have missed a lot of history. The History Channel has movies of Japanese, leaving the caves, after being chased out with flame throwers and being shot as they emerged. They weren't apparently holding weapons, but then again, they were known to fight to the last, and try to boobytrap themselves with hand grenades.
Right? I guess you had to be there. OTOH, read "Flyboys" and find out how the Japanese sometimes murdered out POWs and ate them. Yep, true. First person reports and all in there.
And I'm sure no one in your family would have reacted with rage after the many men were machine gunned in the snow at Malmedy?
Sure..they all would come home and tell you they didn't take prisoners in the heat of battle, and sometimes, even had some "try to escape." Yep...they were all up for telling stories that made them look like they committed criminal acts on the battle field. I suspect they just spoke of the victories and moments they had where they survived. Sort of a human condition. And, yes, good luck getting any of them still living to tell you all about how they murdered in cold blood on the battle field.
And, where in history did you read about the POWs getting "speedy trials?" Seems like they were held for the duration, after being captured on the battlefield, and they did not get criminal trials, they got war crime tribunals.
Facts, they are stubborn things. History: I didn't make it, but I've read a bit of it.
Outstanding post! How bout it Ludwig, care to explain history?
| 998 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:15:47pm |
re: #977 McSpiff
You don't think you'd say you were the mastermind of the fall of the Roman Empire if you were waterboarded?
That's too much logic for him. He doesn't get the fact that if you torture someone long enough they will say pretty much anything they thik you want to hear.
That of course is why we made the fifth amendment... But don't let simple things like logic or American values get in the way of his jingoistic craziness.
| 999 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:16:13pm |
re: #997 NJDhockeyfan
Outstanding post! How bout it Ludwig, care to explain history?
Yeah, as made by war criminals like my grandfather. Explain it to me again.
| 1000 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:16:13pm |
re: #988 TheMatrix31
If I didn't do it, I wouldn't.
Good thing I wouldn't be in that situation anyway.
Your last line is extremely dangerous. As I previously posted:
[Link: www.cbc.ca...]
All Afghan detainees likely tortured: diplomatAll detainees transferred by Canadians to Afghan prisons were likely tortured by Afghan officials and many of the prisoners were innocent, says a former senior diplomat with Canada's mission in Afghanistan.
I don't support waterboarding. But in respect to these trials, it's a non issue for me.
| 1001 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:16:33pm |
| 1002 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:16:53pm |
re: #994 Guanxi88
He was arrested illegally, detained illegally, tortured illegally - yeah, I see no problems at all with trying him.
Well then you know what... We try him on the Pearl murder. And if we so totally fucked up on everything that we can't convict him then the blame falls squarely on W and Cheney.
| 1003 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:17:42pm |
re: #996 BryanS
That's what we should have done--instead of this global war on terrorism/nation building crap.
Right. Kill anyone who fails to snap to attention at the thud of Army boots and the hoisting of the flag.
That's US.
| 1004 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:17:54pm |
re: #924 Dark_Falcon
Point taken, though I don't think I helped build that one. Did I do so, in your opinion?
Not to my mind, although I haven't read this whole monster--I can't.
| 1005 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:17:54pm |
re: #998 LudwigVanQuixote
That's too much logic for him. He doesn't get the fact that if you torture someone long enough they will say pretty much anything they thik you want to hear.
That of course is why we made the fifth amendment... But don't let simple things like logic or American values get in the way of his jingoistic craziness.
If you want to address TheMatrix, then address him. Don't pull me into your passive aggressive games. I've made my opinion of you extremely clear.
| 1006 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:18:47pm |
re: #997 NJDhockeyfan
Outstanding post! How bout it Ludwig, care to explain history?
Well it's very easy. None of it applies. These are people who are taken into custody, not the current objects of a battlefield action.
I didn't think the post was worth responding to because it was so stupid. However, you are that dumb, so I guess it needed explaining.
| 1007 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:18:57pm |
re: #991 LudwigVanQuixote
OK fine so then his trial should go smoothly. What about the others?
Most of them have already admitted their guilt, but this has never been about their guilt. The issue is their desire to wage lawfare against us and try to use our own courts against us. That is the reason I favor military tribunals (and I do remember that you do not oppose them in principle).
| 1008 |
Mich-again Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:19:10pm |
| 1009 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:19:20pm |
re: #1002 LudwigVanQuixote
Well then you know what... We try him on the Pearl murder. And if we so totally fucked up on everything that we can't convict him then the blame falls squarely on W and Cheney.
He wasn't grabbed by the ISI in connection with a criminal prosecution, you hopelessly dense fellow. We never intended to treat this as a prosecution of a criminal case, because it wasn't a criminal case then, it was a national security matter.
Try him for the Pearl murder? Why not try to bust him for traveling without a proper visa?
Besides, the important thing is that the blame for the mess falls on Bush & Cheney. That's the entire fucking point of this whole fucking exercise.
| 1010 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:19:31pm |
re: #1005 McSpiff
If you want to address TheMatrix, then address him. Don't pull me into your passive aggressive games. I've made my opinion of you extremely clear.
Actually that was aggressive aggressive, not passive at all! And fine then.. to hell with you too.
| 1011 |
Joo-LiZ Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:06pm |
For those Carl Sagan fans, check it out: [Link: xkcd.com...]
| 1012 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:07pm |
re: #998 LudwigVanQuixote
That's too much logic for him. He doesn't get the fact that if you torture someone long enough they will say pretty much anything they thik you want to hear.
That of course is why we made the fifth amendment... But don't let simple things like logic or American values get in the way of his jingoistic craziness.
We wanted to hear him for sure. He gave a lot of information to the CIA about how AQ works, info on other terrorists and planned terrorist attacks that resulted in thwarting them and killing or arresting the terrorists. Sorry to give you the bad news, waterboarding works.
| 1013 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:18pm |
re: #961 LudwigVanQuixote
Really, [...]
Now in the case of KSM I do know he murdered Daniel Pearl. I do not know a thing about the others.
Or does the idea of having the government make it's case before we kill people not appeal to you?
[...]
In such extreme cases dealing with murderous terrorists I'm quite happy to trust the military and CIA to get the job done. The viscous murder of Daniel Pearl was sufficient to drop a 2,000 pound bomb on his head or send an assassin.
The only reason to capture that terrorist was to get information to prevent more 911 style mass murders. I fully expect our people to do everything necessary to get that information. After which he should be executed. Plain and simple.
| 1014 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:20:22pm |
re: #994 Guanxi88
He was arrested illegally, detained illegally, tortured illegally - yeah, I see no problems at all with trying him.
You forgot his "extradition". Then there was a distinct lack of representation at his interrogations. I read the entire inspector general's report and didn't see any mention of his having an attorney present. Most attorneys I know would object to waterboarding of a client (except by their firm's accounts payable department).
| 1015 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:21:19pm |
re: #983 Dark_Falcon
I can't answer that one yet. Whatever you believe, I'm certain that the nasty atmosphere on this thread is going to stain things for a while. And I am scared of what's going to happen when Charles sees the flame wars in here.
Well, looks like we will all have to do our best to maintain the civil atmosphere at LFG. In an attempt to learn from today's earlier disagreements with Walter and Sharm, I shall endeavor to spell out and explain all of my opinions when writing in the future. I dislike being upset with people over misunderstandings, nor do I want them to think that I'm not sincere re: my opinions.
In the end, (as politically interested persons) we aren't in control of the world around us, we're just educated observers. LGF is a great place to have a meeting of minds that would not normally interact with each other, and I'm sure we would all like to keep it that way.
| 1016 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:22:02pm |
re: #996 BryanS
That's what we should have done--instead of this global war on terrorism/nation building crap.
| 1017 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:22:09pm |
re: #1006 LudwigVanQuixote
Well it's very easy. None of it applies. These are people who are taken into custody, not the current objects of a battlefield action.
I didn't think the post was worth responding to because it was so stupid. However, you are that dumb, so I guess it needed explaining.
Must you be so vile, is this truly necessary?
| 1018 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:22:13pm |
re: #919 Rightwingconspirator
Tribunals, legally, if properly constituted and set up with a legal framework could be acceptable. A proper tribunal - as a first step could decide who had been falsely accused or who had been the janitor rather than the gun slinger. But putting hundreds of innocent people who have been - politely - maltreated - through any sort of quasilegal system is always going to be difficult.
Morally - thats different. Civillian courts have the full weight of the constitution behind them - their verdicts cleaer, based on higher evidence. Full jurys are in place - full arguments, all evidence is given to all sides. Morally the civillian system is better.
But - i have a legal background having studied law for a while and doing some jobs in the field that took me into courts. Watching the trial 20 years on of a stepdad accused of raping his 13 year old daughter - and trying to keep track of points of law during a testimony that would break hearts into a thousand pieces is tough going. When you steel yourself to seperating the law from emotion it becomes easier to see the bigger picture thats needed to win.
The guy was - pretty well obviously - guilty... but the trial had to happen. We have to do these things as a society for jstice - no matter how painful it is, the catharsis and justice being served are great sedatives. Can't call them cures - but they can dull the pain a liltte.
| 1019 |
Spare O'Lake Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:22:16pm |
I sense a lot of tension around here, and it seems to be bubbling over.
Ugly and vicious displays of intolerant hatred and disrespect for fellow Lizards cheapen the arguments, poison the atmosphere and reflect poorly on all of us. Repeatedly screaming at one's debating opponents and demanding that they get out of their own country; accusing one's opponents of favouring the use of fascist totalitarian tactics; and engaging in vile profanity; these are all beyond the pale and beneath the level of discussion we all enjoy here.
So let's cool it folks, tomorrow's another day.
Good night all...and go fuck yourselves.
| 1020 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:22:31pm |
LVQ - you're maddening tonight, as always. Be well.
| 1021 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:22:59pm |
He was arrested illegally, detained illegally, tortured illegally - yeah, I see no problems at all with trying him.
Free Khalid!
...and thus the left lunacy commences, by the time this comes to trial KSM shall have been declared a freedom fighter. Of this you can be sure.
| 1022 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:23:09pm |
| 1023 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:23:11pm |
re: #1002 LudwigVanQuixote
Well then you know what... We try him on the Pearl murder. And if we so totally fucked up on everything that we can't convict him then the blame falls squarely on W and Cheney.
Why Pearl? What jurisdiction do we have? If an American is killed somewhere on the planet we get to go capture people and try them for murder? That is a moral path?
| 1024 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:24:01pm |
Dear Jingoists, you've had your day.
Your moron cowboy's slunk away.
Shot up the town, took off in shame.
Now someone else must bear the blame.
Copyright 2009 Cato the Elder.
| 1025 |
keithgabryelski Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:24:07pm |
re: #990 Bagua
It's not healthly to bear a grudge or remain angry.
My anger is at the mass murderer who killed those thousands of innocent Americans that awful day, not those who defend his alleged rights, the later I am simply irritated and exasperated with.
I think everyone (on all sides) has their anger focused on KSM.
Your irritation is seen and raised, on the other side, when we hear people exclaiming the benefits of short-circuiting the rule of law.
I'd hope we could get together on that point -- maybe I can just convince you to "let it go" until this plays out and you have something to be outraged over (or maybe you won't have anything to be outraged over).
I'll be outraged with you, if justice isn't served.
| 1026 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:24:53pm |
re: #1003 Cato the Elder
Right. Kill anyone who fails to snap to attention at the thud of Army boots and the hoisting of the flag.
That's US.
So it's better what we are doing in Afghanistan now? I'd say fewer would have died if we bombed until submission. Certainly would have cost us less lives. That together with constant leaflet droppings saying we will stop the moment the Taliban surrenders Osama and gang and Taliban surrenders unconditionally, I think the Taliban would have folded on their own.
Worked on the Japanese--another one of those wars that would have been too costly to prosecute.
| 1027 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:21pm |
re: #1009 Guanxi88
NO it is not. You clearly haven't written a word I said.
It is about us believing in and following through with what we stand for.
As to the crazy notion that our intelligence is always perfect enough to essentially convict without a trial... Hmmm...
ISN'T FLAWED INTELLIGENCE THE ENTIRE DEFENSE OF BUSH AND CHENEY IN IRAQ?
Hypocritical morons.
| 1028 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:22pm |
re: #924 Dark_Falcon
Point taken, though I don't think I helped build that one. Did I do so, in your opinion?
"No flounces, just a lot of liberal BS getting thrown around with conservatives trying to clean it up."
| 1029 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:25:42pm |
re: #1006 LudwigVanQuixote
Well it's very easy. None of it applies. These are people who are taken into custody, not the current objects of a battlefield action.
I didn't think the post was worth responding to because it was so stupid. However, you are that dumb, so I guess it needed explaining.
When someone doesn't agree with you, you fling personal insults. You are a classless despicable little weasel.
| 1030 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:26:04pm |
re: #1017 Bagua
Must you be so vile, is this truly necessary?
What after your meltdown on the past thread... Shut up.
| 1031 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:26:08pm |
re: #1026 BryanS
So it's better what we are doing in Afghanistan now? I'd say fewer would have died if we bombed until submission. Certainly would have cost us less lives. That together with constant leaflet droppings saying we will stop the moment the Taliban surrenders Osama and gang and Taliban surrenders unconditionally, I think the Taliban would have folded on their own.
Worked on the Japanese--another one of those wars that would have been too costly to prosecute.
Osama left Afghanistan the day before we got there, you tool.
| 1032 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:26:20pm |
re: #1027 LudwigVanQuixote
How is a military tribunal not just?
| 1033 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:26:53pm |
re: #1021 The Shadow Do
Yep. We get this all the time in Canada -- that Omar Khadr was the "boy soldier" (and when that doesn't work, it switches to "Why he's a freedom fighter!"). I've got all the talking points memorized.
| 1034 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:26:55pm |
re: #1029 NJDhockeyfan
When someone doesn't agree with you, you fling personal insults. You are a classless despicable little weasel.
NO, when someone says utterly stupid things and then tries to gloat like he had a gotcha, coupled with saying despicable crap that tears down America, I fling insults. Get it straight idiot.
| 1035 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:27:24pm |
re: #1032 McSpiff
How is a military tribunal not just?
Because LVQ said so, so shut the fuck up!
///
| 1036 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:27:34pm |
re: #1031 Cato the Elder
The bombings will continue until morale improves!
| 1037 |
Sam N Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:27:41pm |
re: #1017 Bagua
I agree, Ludwig, I think you make some good arguments, but if you feel the urge to let an insult fly, I would really suggest you walk away from the computer and cool down a bit. Keep in mind that your previous arguments are still out there, and other readers will respect them more without an insult thrown down the road.
| 1038 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:27:48pm |
re: #1032 McSpiff
How is a military tribunal not just?
Well I wrote about that about 50 times, but just for you I will repeat.
Had there been fair, speedy and open tribunals with adequate representation it would have been fine.
| 1039 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:28:36pm |
re: #1027 LudwigVanQuixote
You didn't answer my question in 979, though you downdinged it of course,
here it is again:
I take it you also disagree passionately with the Israeli practice of targeted killings of terrorists who are planning attacks on civilians. Do you consider them equivalent with SS Nazis as well? Are they also innocent until proven guilty in a court of law?
| 1040 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:29:12pm |
re: #1002 LudwigVanQuixote
People blame Bush and Cheney for everything else. Why NOT throw that on the pile?
| 1041 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:29:19pm |
I love the adoption of the "Jingoism" charge by the same people who have declared their opponents to not being un American.
And if you understand the origin of the term Jingoism (and "by Jingo") you'd understand that it is highly offensive to the Portuguese.
But never mind any of that. Those who oppose the moral absolutism are destined for the hellfire.
| 1042 |
Sam N Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:29:32pm |
re: #1029 NJDhockeyfan
Ugh, it goes both ways. I would like to think the readership here is civil enough to respect someone more for not responding to an insult in kind.
| 1043 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:29:53pm |
re: #1040 TheMatrix31
People blame Bush and Cheney for everything else. Why NOT throw that on the pile?
Well actually this would be one of the biggest ones in that stinking pile.
| 1044 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:30:35pm |
re: #1034 LudwigVanQuixote
NO, when someone says utterly stupid things and then tries to gloat like he had a gotcha, coupled with saying despicable crap that tears down America, I fling insults. Get it straight idiot.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but you abuse the privilege.
| 1045 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:30:38pm |
re: #1024 Cato the Elder
Thanks for the BDS. It goes nicely with the PDS you've been showing all month.
| 1047 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:31:34pm |
re: #1039 Bagua
You didn't answer my question in 979, though you downdinged it of course,
here it is again:I take it you also disagree passionately with the Israeli practice of targeted killings of terrorists who are planning attacks on civilians. Do you consider them equivalent with SS Nazis as well? Are they also innocent until proven guilty in a court of law?
Well you see, that's not really the point. The targeted killings done by Israel are against known and open high level operatives that everyone knows is actually a terrorist. Some random guy we picked up and chucked into Gitmo might have just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
| 1048 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:31:39pm |
re: #956 Athens Runaway
On a happier, OT note:
Mary Cheney (Dick Cheney's daughter) and her partner just had a a healthy baby boy.
That's nice! (She said in a slightly hysterical tone.)
| 1049 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:31:43pm |
re: #1038 LudwigVanQuixote
I've seen no indication that they'll get that in a civilian court. Its been clear from the government that there will be innocent verdict allowed. KSM will be executed.
| 1050 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:31:49pm |
re: #1030 LudwigVanQuixote
What after your meltdown on the past thread... Shut up.
My meltdown? LOL.
Ludwig you are a one man continuous melt down, my occasionally pointing out your bad behaviour is not a meltdown, it is holding you accountable, it always comes after you start the insults and name calling.
But nevermind such tiresome banter, please answer my question repeated in 1039
| 1051 |
checked08 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:31:52pm |
re: #1040 TheMatrix31
This is why I hate politics. Taints everything it comes in contact with.
| 1052 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:32:00pm |
| 1053 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:32:31pm |
re: #1049 McSpiff
I've seen no indication that they'll get that in a civilian court. Its been clear from the government that there will be innocent verdict allowed. KSM will be executed.
PIMF: no innocent verdict
| 1054 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:32:45pm |
re: #1041 karmic_inquisitor
Ironically the "un-American" charge also includes the President of the United States (and this ludicrous allegation is made by the so-called defenders of "the rule of law." lol)
| 1055 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:32:51pm |
Oddly enough, I recently spent time reading a book called "Venona" (I am still trying to finish, as I am easily distracted.)
We let at least one spy for the Soviets (American communists spying for CCCP against their own country) go rather than expose our own successful counter-intelligence measures. The trial failed because we couldn't lay all our cards down without giving away cards too valuable to lose.
It was held it was better to see a spy walk than to lose our intelligence. A terrorist? I don't know what we would choose. Of course, nobody outside that governmental program knew this, at the time.
Just some historical background.
| 1056 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:33:02pm |
re: #1024 Cato the Elder
Dear Jingoists, you've had your day.
Your moron cowboy's slunk away.
Shot up the town, took off in shame.
Now someone else must bear the blame.Copyright 2009 Cato the Elder.
Gorgeous!
| 1057 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:33:27pm |
re: #1047 LudwigVanQuixote
Well you see, that's not really the point. The targeted killings done by Israel are against known and open high level operatives that everyone knows is actually a terrorist. Some random guy we picked up and chucked into Gitmo might have just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
You have got to be kidding me. What an unreal assertion after everything you posted upthread. "Everyone knows".
OMFG.
| 1058 |
Gearhead Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:33:55pm |
re: #1047 LudwigVanQuixote
Well you see, that's not really the point. The targeted killings done by Israel are against known and open high level operatives that everyone knows is actually a terrorist. Some random guy we picked up and chucked into Gitmo might have just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
He was a known, high level operative well in advance of his capture.
| 1059 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:33:58pm |
re: #1050 Bagua
My meltdown? LOL.
Ludwig you are a one man continuous melt down, my occasionally pointing out your bad behaviour is not a meltdown, it is holding you accountable, it always comes after you start the insults and name calling.
But nevermind such tiresome banter, please answer my question repeated in 1039
Umm I did. It also wasn't a very bright question.
| 1060 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:34:16pm |
re: #1043 LudwigVanQuixote
And where does doing everything in their power to keep the country safe for 7 years fall?
Asshole.
| 1061 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:34:33pm |
re: #1056 LudwigVanQuixote
And you've defamed the current President of the United States, and that happens to be President Obama.
| 1062 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:34:35pm |
re: #1058 Gearhead
He was a known, high level operative well in advance of his capture.
KSM yes, what about the others?
The case needs to be made.
What about the 50 cases sitting in Gitmo we didn't hear about?
| 1063 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:34:50pm |
re: #1052 Gus 802
Illustration of Roman statesman Cato (234-149 BC) probably in the Senate.
Date taken: 1901
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now!
| 1064 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:34:54pm |
re: #1018 wozzablog
Thank you for a well said and well thought post. I hope the angry lizards will take the example to heart tonight. Warfare has its own morals we can talk about sometime.
Of course it's difficult. Well a few years and many billions of dollars later we can handle difficult. This whole thread with the upset and anger illustrates why these guys should not be tried. Just held as enemy combatants. When hostilities end then we have war crime trials. In the meantime the tribunals can release those who are not so threatening.
I have posted where I stand, and I'm managing to avoid the flame wars. You are right, one way or another it has to happen.
| 1065 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:34:58pm |
re: #1028 WindUpBird
"No flounces, just a lot of liberal BS getting thrown around with conservatives trying to clean it up."
I'd argue with that at least somewhat. I don't think that Cato, Jimmah, iceweasel, or Ludwig are rooting against America. None of them are that sort of leftist. I do however, think that they are greatly in error about what to do with KSM and his band of murderers.
| 1066 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:35:20pm |
re: #1031 Cato the Elder
Osama left Afghanistan the day before we got there, you tool.
Strong argument there--incorrect information followed by insult. Nobody believes what you just stated. The accepted facts by the most ardent opponents of the Bush admin was that Osama was there during our invasion. The left typically criticised Bush for not having enough troops on the ground at Tora Bora.
Please google the phrase: osama tora bora
You will find out just how wrong your assertion was, tool.
| 1067 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:35:30pm |
re: #1047 LudwigVanQuixote
Well you see, that's not really the point. The targeted killings done by Israel are against known and open high level operatives that everyone knows is actually a terrorist. Some random guy we picked up and chucked into Gitmo might have just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Ha! So when it is the Israelis conducting a targeted killing it is against known and open high level operatives that everyone knows is actually a terrorist. , but when the US waterboards a known terrorist masterminding it is just Some random guy we picked up and chucked into Gitmo might have just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
That is too funny Ludwig, really. KSM and the couple other terrorists waterboarded were not random guys picked up, they were know terrorists guilty of some of the most heinous acts of terror in modern history.
| 1068 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:35:42pm |
re: #1027 LudwigVanQuixote
NO it is not. You clearly haven't written a word I said.
no one but you deserves the blame for what you've written.
It is about us believing in and following through with what we stand for.
Again, I'm just the bigoted and anti-american grandson of an evil grandfather. Could you expect otherwise from such as me?
As to the crazy notion that our intelligence is always perfect enough to essentially convict without a trial... Hmmm...
ISN'T FLAWED INTELLIGENCE THE ENTIRE DEFENSE OF BUSH AND CHENEY IN IRAQ?
Hypocritical morons.
See, the thing is, KSM et al, when they gave up intelligence, much of it went through a little process where it was verified and followed up on.
Fucking dolt! You should choke on your righteous rage.
| 1069 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:35:43pm |
re: #1060 TheMatrix31
And where does doing everything in their power to keep the country safe for 7 years fall?
Asshole.
Will idiot, That is hardly clear given that they made the situation much worse and not better by providing our enemies with propaganda that we are as bad as they claim we are.
| 1070 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:06pm |
re: #1054 J.S.
Ironically the "un-American" charge also includes the President of the United States (and this ludicrous allegation is made by the so-called defenders of "the rule of law." lol)
Yes - I suppose that Obama is a North Korean Fascist Jingoist for having sent Al Nishiri to a Military Commission.
Congrats to LVQ and Cato - you have succeeded in convicting Obama of crimes that the wingnuts for alleged for months.
| 1071 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:12pm |
re: #1063 Cato the Elder
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now!
Thought you would like that.
| 1072 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:33pm |
re: #1065 Dark_Falcon
I've already posted my liberal cred in another thread. I think I'm in agreement with most in this thread.
| 1073 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:36:45pm |
re: #1067 Bagua
Baghead, not what I said at all. Try again.
| 1074 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:37:10pm |
re: #1069 LudwigVanQuixote
Oh shut the fuck up already with your contrived bullshit.
| 1075 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:37:33pm |
re: #1068 Guanxi88
Perhaps. I think that it is more that you have let your rage cloud what your grandfather fought for. It's a pity.
| 1076 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:37:43pm |
re: #1066 BryanS
Strong argument there--incorrect information followed by insult. Nobody believes what you just stated. The accepted facts by the most ardent opponents of the Bush admin was that Osama was there during our invasion. The left typically criticised Bush for not having enough troops on the ground at Tora Bora.
Please google the phrase: osama tora bora
You will find out just how wrong your assertion was, tool.
Nobody really knows, do they? We didn't get him, that much is certain. But by all means, advocate random bombing until he materializes. Feels so much better than abject failure, doesn't it?
Death to all who don't know where Osama is!
| 1077 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:38:02pm |
re: #1032 McSpiff
Justice is relative - not absolute in many circumstances.
Absolute justice is someone tried and convicted in a full trial with a jury, a competent defence attorney apprised of all the evidence, abillity to call witnesses, an (innocent) defendent who has been treated humanely all the way through - and after sentence guilty or innocent. A verdict is given on the balance of the evidence.
Justice in a military tribunal on the other hand is like sex behind a night club - quick dirty and not 100% satisfactory.
Not to be confusing military tribunals with courts marshall which serve good purpose in providing adequate justice under established and reasonably fair protocols.
| 1078 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:38:17pm |
re: #1054 J.S.
Ironically the "un-American" charge also includes the President of the United States (and this ludicrous allegation is made by the so-called defenders of "the rule of law." lol)
re: #1065 Dark_Falcon
I'd argue with that at least somewhat. I don't think that Cato, Jimmah, iceweasel, or Ludwig are rooting against America. None of them are that sort of leftist. I do however, think that they are greatly in error about what to do with KSM and his band of murderers.
I don't think either side is in error. I think there's been decent points made from both liberals and conservatives in this thread, and then also a whole lot of shit flinging and strawmen as well.
| 1079 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:38:58pm |
re: #1075 LudwigVanQuixote
Perhaps. I think that it is more that you have let your rage cloud what your grandfather fought for. It's a pity.
And you can choke on your self-righteous concern for my family, you twisted fucking ape! My grandfather is a fucking war criminal in your estimation, you miserable, loathsome worm.
Onions should grow in your mouth.
| 1080 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:39:09pm |
This thread needs something mollifying added...oh look, really cute kittens!
| 1081 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:39:18pm |
re: #1074 TheMatrix31
Oh shut the fuck up already with your contrived bullshit.
No Matrix. You are a jingoist and you care more for your own rage than the values of America. Those of us who believe in America will prevail in the long run and continue to push wingnuts like you into irrelevancy.
Really the people in Russia and China think like you do. Try it there.
| 1082 |
J.S. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:39:24pm |
re: #1078 WindUpBird
Well, you can say that again...(anyway, it's late...) Goodnight all.
| 1083 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:39:58pm |
re: #1080 ausador
This thread needs something mollifying added...oh look, really cute kittens!
[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]
[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]
[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]
Cute kittens.
| 1085 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:40:14pm |
re: #1038 LudwigVanQuixote
Its not too late for tribunals Speedy trial does not apply to POW's. That's your logic break. It's POW's not robbers or mere thugs.
| 1086 |
Curt Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:40:28pm |
re: #999 Guanxi88
Yeah, as made by war criminals like my grandfather. Explain it to me again.
I yield to your expertise in brushing away the veil of facts clouding my vision!
First, if I don't agree with you (and I think I'm in good company), I'm like a NORK or SS guy, then, next, I need to get out of America, so you can keep it "pure" (sorry, accidental reference to Nazi thought processes), now, I'm stupid for pointing out historical information, and suggesting some people will not come back from a war zone and explicitly convey, clearly and without leaving out details, exactly what happened in battle.
Silly me, for living a pragmatic life, surrounded by information, sometimes not so pretty.
/wishing I lived in some utopia of perfect harmony
| 1087 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:40:28pm |
re: #1081 LudwigVanQuixote
Those of us who believe in America will prevail in the long run and continue to push wingnuts like you into irrelevancy.
Really the people in Russia and China think like you do. Try it there.
LVQ - Arbiter of Americanism.
| 1088 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:40:57pm |
re: #1077 wozzablog
Justice is relative - not absolute in many circumstances.
Absolute justice is someone tried and convicted in a full trial with a jury, a competent defence attorney apprised of all the evidence, abillity to call witnesses, an (innocent) defendent who has been treated humanely all the way through - and after sentence guilty or innocent. A verdict is given on the balance of the evidence.
Justice in a military tribunal on the other hand is like sex behind a night club - quick dirty and not 100% satisfactory.
Not to be confusing military tribunals with courts marshall which serve good purpose in providing adequate justice under established and reasonably fair protocols.
The military tribunals held after World War II are some of the finest examples of military justice the world has ever seen. Well prepared for, well fought by all involve. To compare them to sex behind a night club is truly one of the most pitiful statements I've ever read. Go read a book.
| 1089 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:41:05pm |
re: #1079 Guanxi88
And you can choke on your self-righteous concern for my family, you twisted fucking ape! My grandfather is a fucking war criminal in your estimation, you miserable, loathsome worm.
Onions should grow in your mouth.
What for shooting SS? Hardly. You are the one dishonoring him. Not me.
Try believing in the America he fought for.
However, if you want to give a proper Yiddish insult, try this one, it's an old favorite:
May your children be famous and well known - to the police!
| 1091 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:41:44pm |
re: #1089 LudwigVanQuixote
What for shooting SS? Hardly. You are the one dishonoring him. Not me.
Try believing in the America he fought for.
However, if you want to give a proper Yiddish insult, try this one, it's an old favorite:
May your children be famous and well known - to the police!
A madhouse should collapse on you.
| 1092 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:41:48pm |
| 1093 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:41:52pm |
re: #1073 LudwigVanQuixote
Baghead, not what I said at all. Try again.
Why are you returning to personal insults when I am trying to converse with you normally, please stop.
And yes, your answer was completely hypocritical. If it's the evil Americans under the hated George Bush, well, terrorist they capture it just some random guy presumed innocent.
But if the Israelis kill a guy they suspect of planning a terrorist attack, well then, no trial needed, no presumption of innocence, just a missile attack that may kill a few bystanders as well. No problem, everybody knows they are guilty.
That is bizarre and inconsistent.
And BTW, I believe the Israelis are completely justified in targeted killings and it is the terrorists to blame for all casualties. Fighting terrorists is nasty business.
| 1094 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:41:55pm |
re: #1085 Rightwingconspirator
Its not too late for tribunals Speedy trial does not apply to POW's. That's your logic break. It's POW's not robbers or mere thugs.
Ummm no. They are most pointedly not classified as POWs by Bush and Cheney, otherwise the would have had rights. That is your logic break.
| 1095 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:42:37pm |
re: #1087 Guanxi88
OT, But Guanxi i'd like to apologize for some of our earlier interactions here on LGF. There's a few things I'd take like to take back, but sadly this is all I can do.
| 1097 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:42:50pm |
re: #1076 Cato the Elder
Nobody really knows, do they? We didn't get him, that much is certain. But by all means, advocate random bombing until he materializes. Feels so much better than abject failure, doesn't it?
Death to all who don't know where Osama is!
OK--now that you've calmed down a bit, my original point was intended to be about whether we should have invaded at all. I don't think we should have, because even though I think we could take and hold the country one day, it will only be after an unacceptable cost to US lives and treasure. If I value that more than the same of Afghanistan, I plead guilty, but I don't feel guilty about that opinion.
| 1098 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:42:56pm |
re: #1084 TheMatrix31
Shut the fuck up.
Do you get a dollar every time you type the word fuck? is there some sort of google adsense clickthrough thing going on here?
| 1099 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:42:57pm |
| 1100 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:43:32pm |
re: #1095 McSpiff
OT, But Guanxi i'd like to apologize for some of our earlier interactions here on LGF. There's a few things I'd take like to take back, but sadly this is all I can do.
What? It's all in good fun. Not as if you accused me of being evil or dishonoring my ancestry and my homeland.
No harm whatsoever.
| 1101 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:43:56pm |
re: #1098 WindUpBird
Awful hateful rhetoric deserves profane responses. Irony.
| 1102 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:44:22pm |
re: #1097 BryanS
OK--now that you've calmed down a bit, my original point was intended to be about whether we should have invaded at all. I don't think we should have, because even though I think we could take and hold the country one day, it will only be after an unacceptable cost to US lives and treasure. If I value that more than the same of Afghanistan, I plead guilty, but I don't feel guilty about that opinion.
Nor should you.
| 1103 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:44:27pm |
re: #1099 TheMatrix31
She can stand on her own.
So can I.
Yes, just not with logic, consistent values or a love of American law.
So seriously there Matrix... how about that American justice that you hate so much... You sure you don't want to go to North Korea?
| 1104 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:44:43pm |
re: #1080 ausador
This thread needs something mollifying added...oh look, really cute kittens!
[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]
[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]
[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]
| 1105 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:44:43pm |
re: #1094 LudwigVanQuixote
nor was Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach, but he was still initially brought before military tribunal.
| 1106 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:45:09pm |
re: #1103 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes, just not with logic, consistent values or a love of American law.
So seriously there Matrix... how about that American justice that you hate so much... You sure you don't want to go to North Korea?
Fucking obnoxious, LVQ, really fucking obnoxious.
| 1107 |
Curt Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:45:23pm |
re: #1090 Guanxi88
Think ya got me mixed up with LVQ.
Oops...Yes, I did...musta have been a screen refresh mouse wasn't really there click.
Yep, LVQ, it's there for you!
| 1108 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:45:34pm |
re: #1080 ausador
This thread needs something mollifying added...oh look, really cute kittens!
[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]
[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]
[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]
I hate cats. /(not)
You have greatly angered me. /
| 1109 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:45:40pm |
re: #1105 McSpiff
nor was Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach, but he was still initially brought before military tribunal.
And he was tried openly and speedily without being tortured! Wow! What a difference!
| 1110 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:45:50pm |
re: #1103 LudwigVanQuixote
Fuck off, asshole. Seriously what the fuck is wrong with you? Jerkoff. Never liked your ass anyway.
| 1111 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:45:53pm |
Where is Charles, and his shiny new thread?
| 1112 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:09pm |
re: #1099 TheMatrix31
She can stand on her own.
So can I.
But neither of you can get by without "fuck you" as an argument.
Mandy's single. You should ask her for a date.
| 1113 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:35pm |
re: #1100 Guanxi88
I'm glad to hear that. You've definitely opened my eyes to a few things.
| 1114 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:45pm |
re: #1106 Guanxi88
Fucking obnoxious, LVQ, really fucking obnoxious.
No, you are the one who is obnoxious.
Care to think a moment about what it was your grandfather was fighting for. Mine was pretty clear to me about it.
| 1115 |
sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:46pm |
re: #1103 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes, just not with logic, consistent values or a love of American law.
So seriously there Matrix... how about that American justice that you hate so much... You sure you don't want to go to North Korea?
I don't want to go to North Korea. Know WHY? Because not being a citizen I'm not afforded any of their rights if I decided to wage war against them!
hmmm,,, how bout that !
| 1116 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:47pm |
Interesting article on Israeli interrogation techniques after a 1999 ruling that curbed techniques like shaking.
[Link: www.dallasnews.com...]
In a candid interview published last month in the daily newspaper Yediot Ahronot, an Israeli interrogator named only as M. outlined techniques to elicit information without physical harm.
"You use tricks, fake documents, tell the interrogee that you just killed someone in the next room – and that's legitimate," the paper quoted M. as saying.
So now my whole nationality compass is screwed up - are you no longer an Israeli and instead North Korean / SS if you are an Israeli citizen but you oppose the psychological torture because "that's legitimate?" Or do you get banished just for supporting the stuff that the 1999 ruling said was a no no.
I am so confused - I need someone with a firm moral compass to guide me.
| 1117 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:46:53pm |
re: #1098 WindUpBird
Ha!
No but the f bombers can get a free condom with sand in it for each F bomb posted.
| 1118 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:47:07pm |
re: #1101 TheMatrix31
Awful hateful rhetoric deserves profane responses. Irony.
Mix it up with some more interesting language, is all I'm saying. You're just pounding the same piano key over and over.
| 1119 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:47:09pm |
re: #1112 Cato the Elder
But neither of you can get by without "fuck you" as an argument.
Mandy's single. You should ask her for a date.
How many times are you going to insult Mandy in her absence?
| 1120 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:47:16pm |
re: #1112 Cato the Elder
Instead of porn, you probably get off on Palin references and getting profanity out of people.
| 1121 |
sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:47:40pm |
re: #1112 Cato the Elder
But neither of you can get by without "fuck you" as an argument.
Mandy's single. You should ask her for a date.
or at least a fig!
| 1122 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:47:42pm |
re: #985 J.S.
Try to imagine that there is a battlefield and there is what's called a "firefight" (have you seen those on TV?) that's when one group has weapons and is firing -- and there's another group which is firing back...Now imagine, there's a house/compound, and there's a whole bunch of shots being exchanged...Then, low and behold, someone runs outside of the house (ie, the "terrorists") and lobs a hand grenade into a contingent of Americans, one of whom is clearly marked as a "Medic." (you know the ones which are in wars a protected person? under the rules of war, that's a designated "war crime"). The person throwing the hand grenade turns out to be a "juvenile", and his daddy winds up dead. The juvenile eventually winds up at Gitmo...Do you think that there are forensic investigators to trace out the material evidence? Do you think the "terrorist" had his Miranda rights read to him? etc, etc. Again, there is a difference between soldiers fighting in combat, vs criminals.
Go to hell. I've tried to keep this polite and on-topic.
| 1123 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:00pm |
re: #1112 Cato the Elder
Says the man who thinks little ditties count as argument.
| 1124 |
Curt Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:01pm |
Recommented, since I missed the right msg the first time...sorry.
re: #1006 LudwigVanQuixote
Well it's very easy. None of it applies. These are people who are taken into custody, not the current objects of a battlefield action.
I didn't think the post was worth responding to because it was so stupid. However, you are that dumb, so I guess it needed explaining.
I yield to your expertise in brushing away the veil of facts clouding my vision!
First, if I don't agree with you (and I think I'm in good company), I'm like a NORK or SS guy, then, next, I need to get out of America, so you can keep it "pure" (sorry, accidental reference to Nazi thought processes), now, I'm stupid for pointing out historical information, and suggesting some people will not come back from a war zone and explicitly convey, clearly and without leaving out details, exactly what happened in battle.
Silly me, for living a pragmatic life, surrounded by information, sometimes not so pretty.
/wishing I lived in some utopia of perfect harmony
| 1125 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:25pm |
re: #1119 Bagua
How many times are you going to insult Mandy in her absence?
I didn't know she was absent. I've insulted her in her presence often enough.
| 1126 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:35pm |
re: #1110 TheMatrix31
Fuck off, asshole. Seriously what the fuck is wrong with you? Jerkoff. Never liked your ass anyway.
You know that really hurts me. Up until now I had valued myself based on your opinion of me.
Look. America stands for laws. You do not. That makes you anti-American. I love America and I hate douchebags like you who would tear her down while waving the flag. You make me sick.
| 1127 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:46pm |
re: #1122 SanFranciscoZionist
Go to hell. I've tried to keep this polite and on-topic.
:) You tell 'em!
| 1128 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:50pm |
re: #1110 TheMatrix31
And this time, Matrix, I have to downding you. That post was nothing but insults. Settle down, please. You are letting your anger get the better of you. You're better than that.
| 1129 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:48:55pm |
re: #1120 TheMatrix31
Instead of porn, you probably get off on Palin references and getting profanity out of people.
Easy enough with you, were it true.
| 1130 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:49:00pm |
| 1132 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:49:21pm |
re: #1128 Dark_Falcon
And this time, Matrix, I have to downding you. That post was nothing but insults. Settle down, please. You are letting your anger get the better of you. You're better than that.
No he's not.
| 1133 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:49:34pm |
re: #1114 LudwigVanQuixote
No, you are the one who is obnoxious.
Care to think a moment about what it was your grandfather was fighting for. Mine was pretty clear to me about it.
He was fighting to kill the fucking people who were trying to kill him. That's it. He didn't walk around misty-eyed, as you seem to be, thinking of these high-sounding ideals to explain why he was shooting prisoners in the back of the head and dumping them in a ditch, or why he was beating the brains out of an Imperial Japanese soldier with a piece of coral in the middle of the night, or why he was twisting a bayonet into a German's belly in a pouring rainstorm. He did it to kill the people who wanted to kill him.
And that makes him a criminal in your estimation.
| 1134 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:49:46pm |
re: #1125 Cato the Elder
I didn't know she was absent. I've insulted her in her presence often enough.
Fair enough, now you know.
| 1136 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:50:22pm |
re: #1120 TheMatrix31
Instead of porn, you probably get off on Palin references and getting profanity out of people.
And you think she's smart and a good candidate. Shows how bright you are.
| 1137 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:50:30pm |
| 1139 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:51:48pm |
re: #1133 Guanxi88
NO asshole it doesn't. There is a complete difference between an action on a battlefield against an armed foe - or even a potentially armed foe and taking legal actions with those who have already been disarmed and captured.
You are smoking crack if you think I am equating those.
| 1140 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:51:57pm |
re: #1136 LudwigVanQuixote
And you think she's smart and a good candidate. Shows how bright you are.
Why not call him beck and a nazi, tell him to self-deport, and then be done with it?
| 1141 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:52:44pm |
re: #1126 LudwigVanQuixote
You know that really hurts me. Up until now I had valued myself based on your opinion of me.
Look. America stands for laws. You do not. That makes you anti-American. I love America and I hate douchebags like you who would tear her down while waving the flag. You make me sick.
By the way, you often mention that you are an Orthodox Jew, is such talk and insults common and accepted in your community?
| 1142 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:52:45pm |
re: #1081 LudwigVanQuixote
Those of us who believe in America...
Yea...'cause I guess you got the monopoly on patriotism there, sport.
Ever put on the uniform or take an oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States? Or is acting like a little shit-flinging monkey on teH InnterT00bs more your speed?
| 1143 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:52:52pm |
re: #1140 Guanxi88
Why not call him beck and a nazi, tell him to self-deport, and then be done with it?
Read above and stop hyperventilating.
| 1144 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:52:59pm |
re: #1137 Gus 802
Basement cat shall inherit the Earth!
/
Basement cat = Satan in LOLcatspeak, correct?
| 1145 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:53:12pm |
re: #1133 Guanxi88
Don't let him get to you. You know what type of man your grand father was, no one else here does. You've done the best you can to make it clear to the rest of it. I get it, and I'm sure many here do as well. I'm sure he wouldn't want you to get into pissing matches with cowards like LVQ. The only opinion he'd possibly care about here is yours. His honour is very much intact.
| 1146 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:53:18pm |
re: #1136 LudwigVanQuixote
Show me where I've said that in the last six months. I believe my official position on her is "I personally like her, but she's not a viable candidate anymore."
Whatever, why justify my positions to you when you think I'm some hybrid North Korean Nazi Fascist Jingo.
| 1147 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:53:22pm |
re: #1088 McSpiff
Please don't tell me you assumed i meant Nuremburg?...
The folks at Guantanamo and who are being picked up in the field are not getting Nuremburg Mk2.
On June 29, 2006, the Supreme Court handed down its decision in the case "Hamdan v. Rumsfeld" Docket 05-194, with a 5-3 decision for Salim Ahmed Hamdan, effectively declaring that trying Guantanamo Bay detainees under the Guantanamo military commission (known also as Military Tribunal) was illegal under US law and the Geneva Conventions.[3]
| 1148 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:53:50pm |
re: #1141 Bagua
By the way, you often mention that you are an Orthodox Jew, is such talk and insults common and accepted in your community?
Actually there is an admonition to stand for the truth. That is a marvelously slimy little post of yours though Douchebagua.
| 1149 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:54:28pm |
re: #1146 TheMatrix31
Whatever, why justify my positions to you when you think I'm some hybrid North Korean Nazi Fascist Jingo.
Just don't call yourself a Jindo. They're from South Korea, and they're smart.
| 1150 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:55:14pm |
re: #1147 wozzablog
No reason we can't demand they do. As I side before, a civilian trial cannot possibly be fair for the American people or the accused.
| 1151 |
Gus Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:55:16pm |
re: #1144 Dark_Falcon
Basement cat = Satan in LOLcatspeak, correct?
I don't know. I imagine it stands for something.
| 1152 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:55:16pm |
re: #1139 LudwigVanQuixote
NO asshole it doesn't. There is a complete difference between an action on a battlefield against an armed foe - or even a potentially armed foe and taking legal actions with those who have already been disarmed and captured.
You are smoking crack if you think I am equating those.
The four men whose brains my grandfather sprayed on a field in France were disarmed and captured at the time. Think he hesitated one moment, when he saw the shadow of their double-zig insignia on their collars?
Once KSM was captured, then he should have gone straight to trial, in your estimation. he didn't, because there were things we needed to learn about from him that couldn't be gained if we treated him like a defendant in a criminal case. You can't gather much intelligence if you tell your prisoner he has the right to remain silent.
| 1153 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:56:20pm |
re: #1147 wozzablog
I have got to read up on that. I swear there should be NO POW TRIALS during the war. Keep the bad guys as detainees, kick the rest loose. This thread is a living screaming example of why you do not try enemy combatants, or POW's.
| 1154 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:56:24pm |
re: #1142 Fenway_Nation
Yea...'cause I guess you got the monopoly on patriotism there, sport.
Ever put on the uniform or take an oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States? Or is acting like a little shit-flinging monkey on teH InnterT00bs more your speed?
Hey dipshit, Ever consider what it was those men and women were fighting for? If you did put on a uniform, when you were proudly defending American liberties and freedoms, what did that mean to you?
Was it the right to abrogate the law? Is that what they or possibly you fought for?
Or was it perhaps to defend the Republic and the laws that make her and support those freedoms?
| 1155 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:56:43pm |
re: #1148 LudwigVanQuixote
That's nothing compare to the vile filth you've spewed at so many of us in this thread. NOTHING.
| 1156 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:57:08pm |
re: #1148 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually there is an admonition to stand for the truth. That is a marvelously slimy little post of yours though Douchebagua.
You go around acting like this, and then claim orthodoxy? You slander the faith this way. Change your clothes and go to another town...
| 1157 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:57:40pm |
Well I am going to self-deport my butt across the DMZ of my bedroom into the North Korea that I call "bed" and dream jingoistic, hegemonic dreams while the august and noble go about depriving the terrorists that "everyone knows" of their lives, liberty and property while ensuring speedy fair trials (and pillow mints) for those who fall into the "not everyone knows" terrorist cluster.
So help me God.
Hallelujah.
| 1158 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:58:03pm |
Fine!
Adjectives:
Disingenuous
Puerile
Fallacious (Note: I used an F, not a Ph)
Nonsensical
Noxious
Nouns:
Clown
Neanderthal (They're dead; they can't sue)
Troglodyte
Bottom-feeder
Verbs:
Abase
Degrade
Vamoose
and why not...Matriculate (for the really stupid)
See, now we can use more than one word.
| 1159 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:58:11pm |
| 1160 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:58:20pm |
re: #1139 LudwigVanQuixote
NO asshole it doesn't. There is a complete difference between an action on a battlefield against an armed foe - or even a potentially armed foe and taking legal actions with those who have already been disarmed and captured.
You are smoking crack if you think I am equating those.
It is surprising you are tolerated on this forum. So many of your posts involve vulgar personal insults and so many threads you participate turn into nasty exchanges that are dominated by you.
Here you go again:
re: #1148 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually there is an admonition to stand for the truth. That is a marvelously slimy little post of yours though Douchebagua.
Meanwhile I am not swearing at you or making vile insults, I was trying to discuss the topic with you and challenge your opinions with reason an logic.
I've noticed how pleasant the threads have been in recent days with your absence. If you can not converse politely then you really should just go away.
| 1161 |
sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 9:58:55pm |
re: #1148 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually there is an admonition to stand for the truth. That is a marvelously slimy little post of yours though Douchebagua.
Why is it always you thats in the middle of the name calling? Yeah Yeah ,, I know,,, someone else called YOU a name (this time).
But it seems that on a semi-daily basis YOU'RE the common denominator. We've had this converstaion before with you even AGREEING that you're wrong in doing it, yet like an addict there you are again, not being able to stop yourself.
TIME TO STEP AWAY FROM THE PUTER AND BREATH!
| 1163 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:00:15pm |
re: #1161 sattv4u2
It's typical of liberals to project their own actions and present them as what their "enemies" are doing.
| 1164 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:01:15pm |
re: #1163 TheMatrix31
It's typical of liberals to project their own actions and present them as what their "enemies" are doing.
It's typical of people.
| 1165 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:01:19pm |
All right, for real, I;m off to bed.
G'night, honcos.
LVQ - by the morning, it's all forgotten.
| 1166 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:01:39pm |
re: #1152 Guanxi88
The four men whose brains my grandfather sprayed on a field in France were disarmed and captured at the time. Think he hesitated one moment, when he saw the shadow of their double-zig insignia on their collars?
Once KSM was captured, then he should have gone straight to trial, in your estimation. he didn't, because there were things we needed to learn about from him that couldn't be gained if we treated him like a defendant in a criminal case. You can't gather much intelligence if you tell your prisoner he has the right to remain silent.
I am certain that Hashem will forgive him. However, that was a crime. You don't shoot prisoners without cause.
| 1167 |
sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:01:51pm |
re: #1163 TheMatrix31
It's typical of liberals to project their own actions and present them as what their "enemies" are doing.
Nothing at all to do with being "liberal" I have discussions here and in person daily with "liberals" and it doesn't degenerate into name calling. It's a personal choice
| 1168 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:01:56pm |
re: #1163 TheMatrix31
Hey now, LVQ looks like a pretty huge douche from this side of the aisle too.
| 1169 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:02:02pm |
re: #1164 Cato the Elder
Weren't you supposed to go to bed, or sign off, or do something else?
| 1170 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:02:18pm |
re: #1165 Guanxi88
I wouldn't be able to forget this. And I wont.
| 1171 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:02:42pm |
re: #1150 McSpiff
What is and what should be are two completely different things.
Systems needed to be set up long before now - as the detainees who have been mistreated and who have been denied access to any justice for years will not got a fair trial now anywhere. either the abuse of due process before making the case federal causes problems or the standards of evidence from the foothills will not stand up.
But - with cases involving swidt pick ups, communications records, known associations and hard evidence - i don't see why the international criminal court shouldn't handle it after all the crimes took place across many borders and finding an american jury would be very difficult.
All cases related to 9/11 thoug can not be kicked upstairs to the Internationa court because of the date it happend - prior to the standing orders of court.
| 1172 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:02:48pm |
re: #1169 TheMatrix31
Weren't you supposed to go to bed, or sign off, or do something else?
It's too much fun making you dance on your string.
| 1173 |
Daniel Ballard Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:02:53pm |
re: #1162 Guanxi88
I'm not pointing fingers. I'm just asking that some restraint apply and we not get into religious insults. That well and truly belongs out of bounds. Passion is understandable but this is going downhill and really can be turned around.
| 1174 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:03:02pm |
re: #1167 sattv4u2
Then I guess I should say SOME. I have a few in mind.
| 1175 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:03:08pm |
| 1176 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:03:19pm |
How about a few of a different kind of "Kitteh?"
| 1177 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:03:56pm |
re: #1172 Cato the Elder
So you get pleasure out of getting rises out of people? What a sick, sad, pathetic little existence. Aren't you supposed to be an "elder"?
| 1178 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:04:05pm |
re: #1161 sattv4u2
Hey satt as usual you have stepped in after a long thread to piss on me. Guess what. I don't care.
| 1179 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:04:12pm |
re: #1173 Rightwingconspirator
I'd say slandering dead family members would fall into the same category, but I'm much too new to start suggesting what is or isn't acceptable behaviour here.
| 1181 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:04:52pm |
re: #1156 Guanxi88
You go around acting like this, and then claim orthodoxy? You slander the faith this way. Change your clothes and go to another town...
I honestly believe that this sort of behaviour by Ludwig is not at all representative of Orthodox Jews nor permitted in their moral code. Those I have met are very decent and moral people who would be shocked at such vile and crude insults.
I have it on good authority that it is forbidden to speak evil of people.
Ludwig, do some soul searching and look in the mirror, perhaps talk to your Rabbi, all this anger and vile talk can not be justified by someone claiming to be orthodox and an authority on Judaism.
| 1182 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:05:09pm |
re: #1168 McSpiff
Hey now, LVQ looks like a pretty huge douche from this side of the aisle too.
And you seem to be a little suck up. I'm sure the adulation of the blog community will fill your life with meaning.
In the mean time, either you care about American laws and values or you do not.
| 1183 |
sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:05:26pm |
re: #1178 LudwigVanQuixote
Hey satt as usual you have stepped in after a long thread to piss on me. Guess what. I don't care.
Thanks for proving the point!
I don't have to be somewhere at the 1st spark to know the house is now on fire, AND the best way to put it out!
| 1185 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:06:39pm |
I'm just plain burned out at this point. This thread has been bitter and draining, so I can't say good talk. All I can do is hope that it never gets this bad again.
I'm out. Sleep well, all, no matter what you believe.
| 1186 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:06:45pm |
re: #1177 TheMatrix31
So you get pleasure out of getting rises out of people? What a sick, sad, pathetic little existence. Aren't you supposed to be an "elder"?
Kleiner Mann, was nun?
| 1187 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:06:58pm |
re: #1166 LudwigVanQuixote
I am certain that Hashem will forgive him. However, that was a crime. You don't shoot prisoners without cause.
It is really vile and ignorant to attack his grandfathers memory and accuse him of being a criminal.
| 1189 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:07:16pm |
re: #1181 Bagua
Bags, really that is deeply off target and deeply wrong of you to go there. How about you cease and desist. You tried every other slimy tact you could fine on the last thread and now you are trying this here. It is really wrong.
If you really want to know what Jewish Law says about those who support tyrannical actions, go look it up. The language that the Rabbis use is much more harsh than mine. They use words like abomination and evil.
| 1190 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:07:34pm |
| 1191 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:07:48pm |
re: #1141 Bagua
By the way, you often mention that you are an Orthodox Jew, is such talk and insults common and accepted in your community?
You've never seen two guys get into a fight over a fine point of Gemara, have you?
| 1192 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:08:02pm |
re: #1153 Rightwingconspirator
This - i'm sorry to break it to you - is a hideous Orwellian war without end. The US government will never be able to claim victory against Wahabist Islam's more vulgar tendencies.
No Government can declare victory under these circumstances - it's like the war on drugs. Neither drugs nor terrorism will ever go away - and as such no "victory" can be declared as there is always another defeat around the corner.
That is why the "War" on terror is an insane linguistic device that sounded good at the time but has condemned thousands to time spent in limbo as "enemies" who never laid a finger on a US or UK soldier or civillian.
War on an ideology or a means of fighting are always doomed to failure.
| 1193 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:08:04pm |
re: #1187 Bagua
It is really vile and ignorant to attack his grandfathers memory and accuse him of being a criminal.
Asshole. I did not. And also Asshole, that is the law. It is even Jewish law.
| 1194 |
sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:08:27pm |
| 1195 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:08:45pm |
re: #1191 SanFranciscoZionist
You've never seen two guys get into a fight over a fine point of Gemara, have you?
Did I mention I adore you!
| 1196 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:09:13pm |
re: #1184 Rightwingconspirator
you have been a rare glimpse of sanity tonight in this thread, many thanks.
| 1197 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:09:55pm |
re: #1193 LudwigVanQuixote
Asshole. I did not. And also Asshole, that is the law. It is even Jewish law.
You really are a vulger man, I've not made even one such insult to you this thread. You talk like that and cite "Jewish law" in the same paragraph?
Shame on you!
| 1198 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:10:17pm |
re: #1154 LudwigVanQuixote
Well...oddly enough, I don't remember anything about reading enemy combatants their miranda rights on the battlefield when they were training us at Ft. Benning. I'm also pretty sure that the constitution that I took an oath to uphold and defend didn't apply to nonuniformed enemy combatants who had openly and repeatedly declared war on America from foreign soil...
/but that's just me and my disphit-tastic, simplistic, provincial, jingoistic world view.
| 1199 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:10:20pm |
I am self-deporting to Portland's greatest bar to have many microbrews. Peace, and try not to kill each other!
| 1200 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:12:07pm |
re: #1197 Bagua
You really are a vulger man, I've not made even one such insult to you this thread. You talk like that and cite "Jewish law" in the same paragraph?
Shame on you!
Actually you are right, the proper term in Jewish Law for your views is ra.
| 1201 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:12:10pm |
re: #1191 SanFranciscoZionist
You've never seen two guys get into a fight over a fine point of Gemara, have you?
You are saying that Orthodox Jews studying religious texts call each other "asshole" and make vile personal insults while debating the law? That sounds very strange, and very wrong.
| 1202 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:12:23pm |
re: #1199 WindUpBird
I am self-deporting to Portland's greatest bar to have many microbrews. Peace, and try not to kill each other!
If you get just one big drink (say, a liter or a German Maß), it's cheaper.
Hoist one for me, anyway.
| 1203 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:13:59pm |
re: #1163 TheMatrix31
It's typical of liberals to project their own actions and present them as what their "enemies" are doing.
Would it KILL people around here to quit with the "liberals are like this or that" crap?
| 1204 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:14:06pm |
re: #1200 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually you are right, the proper term in Jewish Law for your views is ra.
Do not quote Jewish Law to me you false Jew and false scientist. You are an evil and vulgar man who is full of rage and hate, as you have proven once again tonight.
I am certain this is not typical of Orthodox Jews or Judaism.
| 1206 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:15:51pm |
re: #1201 Bagua
You are saying that Orthodox Jews studying religious texts call each other "asshole" and make vile personal insults while debating the law? That sounds very strange, and very wrong.
You really think you are on to something. No Bags, you are supporting tyrannical actions and standing for injustice. You are tearing down the fabric that builds our society. The proper Talmudic words for you are vastly more harsh. I'm actually being very soft on you as to that regard. So how about you drop the Jewish angle and try argiuing some principles? It is not that you have any, but try.
Or perhaps you could argue some facts?
You don't have those either.
What you do is scrape the bottom of the barrel, dig some more and then try to act as if you are reasonable.
The reality is that you are utterly reprehensible.
| 1207 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:16:09pm |
re: #1203 SanFranciscoZionist
Sorry. Just some that I've been dealing with here I guess.
| 1208 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:17:02pm |
Kids - i'm going out for a while.
Play nice. Daddy will be around in a few hours with tixylix and warm milk.
I'm not going to pick up or hand back any toys thrown from prams on my way out.
| 1209 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:17:51pm |
re: #1204 Bagua
Do not quote Jewish Law to me you false Jew and false scientist. You are an evil and vulgar man who is full of rage and hate, as you have proven once again tonight.
I am certain this is not typical of Orthodox Jews or Judaism.
Now you have really crossed the line.
I am a false Jew for standing up for the rule of law? You don't know a thing about it.
I am a false scientist for what? Proving you wrong on other threads with real data, facts and figures?
You disgust me. You're a little web snot. You don't really stand for anything at all do you?
| 1210 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:18:23pm |
re: #1204 Bagua
You are calling someone a "false Jew"?
Whatever the argument, that is beyond all...I have no words.
Take a step back.
| 1211 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:18:37pm |
re: #1206 LudwigVanQuixote
I'll not converse with you further as you insist on making vile insults. I didn't swear at you once on this thread and tried to have a civil debate.
Your anger and vulgarity is too much for me. I have you figured out and I don't like what I see and I do not wish to join you.
| 1212 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:18:48pm |
re: #1203 SanFranciscoZionist
Would it KILL people around here to quit with the "liberals are like this or that" crap?
I dunno...would it killl other people around here to quit with the "Republicans/Christians/SoCons are like this or that" crap? Or is that pretty standard for the newer arrivals?
| 1213 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:18:53pm |
re: #1209 LudwigVanQuixote
HE has really crossed the line?
HE disgusts YOU?
HE is WEB SNOT?
**rolls eyes**
| 1215 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:19:41pm |
re: #1212 Fenway_Nation
I dunno...would it killl other people around here to quit with the "Republicans/Christians/SoCons are like this or that" crap? Or is that pretty standard for the newer arrivals?
In other words, yes.
| 1216 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:20:31pm |
re: #1182 LudwigVanQuixote
Tact and compassion isn't sucking up, but fair enough. I don't come here for meaning, I come here to learn. I've learned a fair amount from some of your more rational posts. I hope I can continue to do so. You're posts about Judaism and Global warming are great. If it hadn't been for this thread I suspect we'd get along great.
I agree with you on many points, even in this thread. If the pakistani's had handed KSM over to the FBI, and the entire thing had been handled as a criminal matter from day one, id be the first one screaming for a civilian trial. And I've never supported water boarding. But things did not go the way I would hope. That's why I support military tribunal. I support them being fair and open. I support them being speedy. I do not support torture in any form. I don't even support capital punishment.
I do not support baseless attacks on families. I do not support attacks on patriotism. I dont support attacks on someone religion, be it catholic jewish or muslim. I will not, and cannot support the fallacy of comparing the US Army to the khmer rogue or the SS. I cannot support the IDF's extra judicial killings while at the same acting like America is the great satan for gitmo or tribunals.
Call me whatever you wish for this post, but this is my honest attempt to avoid totally burning bridges with you.
| 1217 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:20:44pm |
re: #1210 Cato the Elder
You are calling someone a "false Jew"?
Whatever the argument, that is beyond all...I have no words.
Take a step back.
Ha! You who made numerous gratuitous and vile insults on this thread, now all the sudden you are miss manners?
I stand by my statement, I have it on good authority that Orthodox Jews are not vile, profane, insulting and hateful.
| 1218 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:22:03pm |
re: #1211 Bagua
I'll not converse with you further as you insist on making vile insults. I didn't swear at you once on this thread and tried to have a civil debate.
Your anger and vulgarity is too much for me. I have you figured out and I don't like what I see and I do not wish to join you.
Do you promise? Do you mean it this time? You've said that before to me, but you've always let me down. Please mean it this time and leave me alone forever. Really you do disgust me. I despise you. I hate talking to you. I would love it if you went away. Please mean it this time. Don't lie like you did the other times.
| 1219 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:23:39pm |
re: #1216 McSpiff
I am not attacking anyone's family. Nor have I.
The fact is that we either stand for the rule of law or we don't We mean it and distinguish ourselves from those who do not, or we don't.
If you believe what you are saying than pick a side.
| 1220 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:25:14pm |
re: #1203 SanFranciscoZionist
Would it KILL people around here to quit with the "liberals are like this or that" crap?
I will now state, for the record:
All liberals have (at least theoretically) bilateral symmetry. Take that!
All liberals practice respiration.
All liberals have 2 atriums and 2 ventricles.
Take that!
(And I need to go to bed, so I will not see your brilliant refutation of my logic.)
| 1221 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:25:25pm |
re: #1217 Bagua
Ha! You who made numerous gratuitous and vile insults on this thread, now all the sudden you are miss manners?
I stand by my statement, I have it on good authority that Orthodox Jews are not vile, profane, insulting and hateful.
And not denouncing profanities like holding people without trial or representation or torturing them is vile and profane and hateful.
| 1222 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:26:49pm |
re: #1213 TheMatrix31
HE has really crossed the line?
HE disgusts YOU?
HE is WEB SNOT?
**rolls eyes**
You disgust me too. But less than Baggy. Baggy is smarter than you and should know better.
| 1223 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:26:50pm |
ok.
this is the none-snark sign off.
g'night all.
may water pass under the bridge, may all difficulties become trivial, may all hatred mellow and may all cigars be cubans.
| 1224 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:26:54pm |
re: #1220 EmmmieG
I will now state, for the record:
All liberals have (at least theoretically) bilateral symmetry. Take that!
All liberals practice respiration.
All liberals have 2 atriums and 2 ventricles.
Take that!
(And I need to go to bed, so I will not see your brilliant refutation of my logic.)
Good night!
| 1225 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:27:05pm |
re: #1209 LudwigVanQuixote
Now you have really crossed the line.
I am a false Jew for standing up for the rule of law? You don't know a thing about it.
What you claim to be Jewish law based upon your claim of authority. I dispute that Jewish law permits your vile speech and slander.
I am a false scientist for what? Proving you wrong on other threads with real data, facts and figures?
You've proved nothing, I have caught you in histrionic exaggerations and have made the case that real professionals do not speak as you do.
You disgust me. You're a little web snot. You don't really stand for anything at all do you?
Again, more vile insults, you are an unpleasant man and I am not interested in your approval. You really drag down most every thread you participate in and you insult many good and descent posters here with your vile and profane rants.
Why can you not debate things civilly like most everyone else here? Why all the anger, insults and hatred?
| 1227 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:27:37pm |
re: #1217 Bagua
Ha! You who made numerous gratuitous and vile insults on this thread, now all the sudden you are miss manners?
I stand by my statement, I have it on good authority that Orthodox Jews are not vile, profane, insulting and hateful.
No, Miss Manners specializes in "fuck you" and "go piss up a rope". The worst name I used in this thread was "tool". Which is a descriptive, not an epithet.
I would not even dare to call Sarah Palin a "false Christian".
You should be ashamed.
| 1228 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:28:24pm |
I want more baby sloth videos.
Good night, everyone.
| 1229 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:28:36pm |
re: #1223 wozzablog
Yeah right. Don't understand how anyone can be a piece of trash, transparent, plastic, fake. Los Angeles-style douche in future interactions after this display tonight.
| 1230 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:28:40pm |
re: #1224 SanFranciscoZionist
Good night!
Goodnight SanFrancisoZionist, you are always a pleasure to have around, even when we occasionally disagree.
| 1231 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:29:00pm |
re: #1225 Bagua
I thought you weren't going to talk to me anymore... You always lie about that.
Go away douchebagua. You are not worth my spit.
| 1232 |
Obdicut Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:29:40pm |
re: #1154 LudwigVanQuixote
Hey dipshit, Ever consider what it was those men and women were fighting for? If you did put on a uniform, when you were proudly defending American liberties and freedoms, what did that mean to you?
Was it the right to abrogate the law? Is that what they or possibly you fought for?
Or was it perhaps to defend the Republic and the laws that make her and support those freedoms?
And they were fighting for a segregated nation with institutionalized, accepted racism.
| 1233 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:30:37pm |
re: #1232 Obdicut
And they were fighting for a segregated nation with institutionalized, accepted racism.
Is that what they were fighting for? Some perhaps. Others believed in the what America meant and took it to heart.
| 1234 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:30:38pm |
re: #1231 LudwigVanQuixote
I thought Cato was going to bed.
| 1235 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:30:47pm |
re: #1232 Obdicut
And they were fighting for a segregated nation with institutionalized, accepted racism.
And that same nation came home from war and dealt with that shit. Late, imperfectly, but there it is.
| 1236 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:31:02pm |
| 1237 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:31:05pm |
re: #1227 Cato the Elder
No, Miss Manners specializes in "fuck you" and "go piss up a rope". The worst name I used in this thread was "tool". Which is a descriptive, not an epithet.
I would not even dare to call Sarah Palin a "false Christian".
You should be ashamed.
I didn't mean Mandy, I meant Miss Manners.
And don't tell me I should be ashamed Cato, you are not exactly a sweet person yourself, and you have made many vile insults about Palin.
The fact is, if it was Palin making vulgar and hateful statements and claiming her religion condoned it, then I would call her on it as well.
| 1238 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:31:21pm |
What an epic battle for such a blatant piece of political theater on Holder and Obama's part. This is just freaking sad, how anyone could work themselves up into a fury over it either way is beyond me. Either way justice will be served, either way the accused would have a trial under the law. All the rest is simply politics with various valid points to be made by either side.
This is not the end of America's anti-terror efforts nor is it the end of our rights and freedoms, regardless of various opinions here saying that it is some kind of turning point towards one or the other.
| 1239 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:32:13pm |
re: #1231 LudwigVanQuixote
I thought you weren't going to talk to me anymore... You always lie about that.
Go away douchebagua. You are not worth my spit.
Such a vile man. It is not I who should go away.
| 1240 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:35:04pm |
re: #1227 Cato the Elder
But you did say she'd sell her downs' syndrome child to Dr. Mengele for a buck. Are we supposed to applaud you for being so 'edgey'?
/BTW...thank you for taking time off your busy schedule in the CSI hippie spit analysis lab.
| 1241 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:35:25pm |
re: #1237 Bagua
I didn't mean Mandy, I meant Miss Manners.
And don't tell me I should be ashamed Cato, you are not exactly a sweet person yourself, and you have made many vile insults about Palin.
The fact is, if it was Palin making vulgar and hateful statements and claiming her religion condoned it, then I would call her on it as well.
Fine. You and LVQ have hard-ons for each other. I get it. I don't condone his vulgarity. But calling someone a "false Jew" is a line even I, vile Cato, would not cross.
| 1243 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:36:49pm |
re: #1219 LudwigVanQuixote
Your opinions are simply that, not facts. Sound bites like "You're either with us or against us" is what defined the last administration. We disagree about what laws apply to those like KSM. We are certainly not the only ones who have this disagreement. I agree these prisoners have rights. They deserve their day to defend themselves. I simply disagree with the jurisdiction.
I feel your attacks on Guixani went too far. I feel many of the attacks on you in this thread go too far. You're open about your religion, and I respect that. I would never use that against you.
| 1244 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:37:59pm |
re: #1239 Bagua
Such a vile man. It is not I who should go away.
Still with the lies... I thought you were not going to converse with me anymore. really I would like that. You're an utter asshole. I hate you. I hate talking to you. I think you are vile and stupid. I find your tactics distracting from the real points - and serious points at that. I happen to care about America as a nation of laws. You do not. I happen to care abut real things like science. You do not.
You are the most obnoxious of posters because unlike Matrix, who can't be counted on to make a rational argument with a teleprompter and a research staff, at least he is consistent and tries to stay on the point.
You on the other hand are just out to try again and again with any tact that will insult and get under the skin. You keep trying and trying, and then you try to play reasonable when not melting down. Your an asshole Douchebagua. You are an utter Douche. really. I hate talking to you.
You seem to hate talking to me. You've said it again and again, so please, live up to your promise and fuck off.
| 1245 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:38:37pm |
re: #1241 Cato the Elder
Fine. You and LVQ have hard-ons for each other. I get it. I don't condone his vulgarity. But calling someone a "false Jew" is a line even I, vile Cato, would not cross.
I accept that and I'm not angry with you. Ludwig is quoting Jewish law, publicly presents himself as an orthodox Jew and an authority on his religion, I find that impossible to balance with his vulgar language and constant slander. As I say, I have it on good authority that this sort of talk is not permitted and not condoned. No matter how many times Ludwig insists that it is, I refuse to believe that.
| 1246 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:38:57pm |
re: #1241 Cato the Elder
Fine. You and LVQ have hard-ons for each other. I get it. I don't condone his vulgarity. But calling someone a "false Jew" is a line even I, vile Cato, would not cross.
I promise I don't have a hard on for him. I would love it if he ignored me and never commented on what I wrote! I would love it. He keeps promising to, but he never delivers.
| 1247 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:39:28pm |
re: #1245 Bagua
I accept that and I'm not angry with you. Ludwig is quoting Jewish law, publicly presents himself as an orthodox Jew and an authority on his religion, I find that impossible to balance with his vulgar language and constant slander. As I say, I have it on good authority that this sort of talk is not permitted and not condoned. No matter how many times Ludwig insists that it is, I refuse to believe that.
Stop Bagua. You are going beyond insulting into territory that is shitty even for scum like you.
| 1248 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:39:37pm |
re: #1245 Bagua
Leave the true nature of his belief to him and God. Anything else is baseless speculation.
| 1249 |
checked08 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:39:45pm |
re: #1203 SanFranciscoZionist
Would it KILL people around here to quit with the "liberals are like this or that" crap?
That's how conservatives are. Just disregard anyone who doesn't agree with them!
/
| 1250 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:40:24pm |
re: #1240 Fenway_Nation
But you did say she'd sell her downs' syndrome child to Dr. Mengele for a buck. Are we supposed to applaud you for being so 'edgey'?
/BTW...thank you for taking time off your busy schedule in the CSI hippie spit analysis lab.
I have no idea what that last line is about.
The thing I said about Palin was she would sell Trig for a dollar to Doktor Mengele if it would get her closer to power.
I take it back. She's a smart power-whore. She would sell him to the highest bidder.
| 1251 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:42:17pm |
re: #1244 LudwigVanQuixote
Still with the lies... I thought you were not going to converse with me anymore. really I would like that. You're an utter asshole. I hate you. I hate talking to you. I think you are vile and stupid. I find your tactics distracting from the real points - and serious points at that. I happen to care about America as a nation of laws. You do not. I happen to care abut real things like science. You do not.
You are the most obnoxious of posters because unlike Matrix, who can't be counted on to make a rational argument with a teleprompter and a research staff, at least he is consistent and tries to stay on the point.
You on the other hand are just out to try again and again with any tact that will insult and get under the skin. You keep trying and trying, and then you try to play reasonable when not melting down. Your an asshole Douchebagua. You are an utter Douche. really. I hate talking to you.
You seem to hate talking to me. You've said it again and again, so please, live up to your promise and fuck off.
Again, full of hate and profanity. You really drag this forum down to the level of a teenage locker room with your behaviour.
| 1252 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:43:02pm |
re: #1250 Cato the Elder
You might be an ass, but you always manage to get a chuckle out of me at least once per thread.
| 1253 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:43:13pm |
re: #1243 McSpiff
Your opinions are simply that, not facts. Sound bites like "You're either with us or against us" is what defined the last administration. We disagree about what laws apply to those like KSM. We are certainly not the only ones who have this disagreement. I agree these prisoners have rights. They deserve their day to defend themselves. I simply disagree with the jurisdiction.
I feel your attacks on Guixani went too far. I feel many of the attacks on you in this thread go too far. You're open about your religion, and I respect that. I would never use that against you.
Actually I generally like you.
I don't recall ever attacking Guaxni's family. I am very serious though about the lessons my grandparents taught me about why they were proud to be Americans and who we were better than those we fought for the very things that people like Guaxni seem to forget.
| 1255 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:43:37pm |
re: #1248 McSpiff
Leave the true nature of his belief to him and God. Anything else is baseless speculation.
I would completely agree except that it is Ludwig who claims to be a religious authority and claims to speak for his faith and its rules.
| 1256 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:44:27pm |
| 1257 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:44:46pm |
re: #1255 Bagua
I would completely agree except that it is Ludwig who claims to be a religious authority and claims to speak for his faith and its rules.
That's enough. It really is.
| 1258 |
BryanS Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:44:56pm |
re: #1250 Cato the Elder
I have no idea what that last line is about.
The thing I said about Palin was she would sell Trig for a dollar to Doktor Mengele if it would get her closer to power.
I take it back. She's a smart power-whore. She would sell him to the highest bidder.
Heh...wondered about the
CSI hippie spit analysis lab.
thing too :)
Cute line about Palin, but certainly isn't very nice.
| 1259 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:45:14pm |
| 1260 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:47:03pm |
re: #1251 Bagua
Again, full of hate and profanity. You really drag this forum down to the level of a teenage locker room with your behaviour.
Which part of you are not talking to me did I miss? When really are you going away?
I had my hopes up.
| 1261 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:47:09pm |
re: #1255 Bagua
That's fine with me. I defend myself from misrepresentation, I expect God to do the same. If other jews in this thread have issue, I trust they'll identify his errors. I'd never judge an entire religion by one of its members anyways.
| 1262 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:47:17pm |
re: #1244 LudwigVanQuixote
Can't make an argument even with a teleprompter and a research staff, eh? Never thought I'd have anything in common with Barack Obama.
| 1263 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:48:03pm |
re: #1246 LudwigVanQuixote
I promise I don't have a hard on for him. I would love it if he ignored me and never commented on what I wrote! I would love it. He keeps promising to, but he never delivers.
Ludwig, you were dominating the thread and swearing at and insulting about six other posters before I joined in to ask you to stop. I haven't sworn at you once.
You do not get a free pass from me to act as an unquestionable and cranky authority on this forum, all of our voices are equally entitled to speak on the topics as long as the owner tolerates our presence.
Now, play nice and stop the hate and profane insults and discuss the topics. That is all I am asking of you, not agreement, just decency.
| 1264 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:48:20pm |
re: #1256 Cato the Elder
Good thing for you is that I really couldn't care less about the jollies you're getting. You'd think that basic psychology would tell me to stop responding to you since you're getting such a thrill out of it but nope, I don't care. It only makes you look petty and pathetic. You're supposed to be the adult here.
| 1265 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:50:20pm |
re: #1261 McSpiff
That's fine with me. I defend myself from misrepresentation, I expect God to do the same. If other jews in this thread have issue, I trust they'll identify his errors. I'd never judge an entire religion by one of its members anyways.
Yes I agree, and I would never mention someones religion except in a case like this when they claim their religion condones their behaviour.
| 1266 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:50:29pm |
re: #1250 Cato the Elder
The last line was your claiming that hippies and anti-war types spitting on returning servicemen during Vietnam was an urban legend. Then- for those of us born after the fall of Saigon, you said it didn't count if it happened to a brother, uncle, father or grandfather...because that was unreliable secondhand info.
/Have fun with the Levi Jonson commemerative issue of Playgirl
| 1267 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:50:58pm |
re: #1263 Bagua
Ludwig, you were dominating the thread and swearing at and insulting about six other posters before I joined in to ask you to stop. I haven't sworn at you once.
You do not get a free pass from me to act as an unquestionable and cranky authority on this forum, all of our voices are equally entitled to speak on the topics as long as the owner tolerates our presence.
Now, play nice and stop the hate and profane insults and discuss the topics. That is all I am asking of you, not agreement, just decency.
Oh bullshit. You were having a royal meltdown on the same topic just today in the last thread.
You had a royal scum fest with trying to drag my religion into this. You are a scumbag and a liar and generally worthless. Anyone who reads the threads can see what you are up to.
And as to my insulting people, if you find comparisons to Russia, China and North Korea insulting, then don't advocate the way they do things as good for America!
If that much truth hurts then own it.
| 1268 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:51:40pm |
re: #1265 Bagua
Yes I agree, and I would never mention someones religion except in a case like this when they claim their religion condones their behaviour.
You really won't quit will you.
Matrix at least believes in what he is saying. You on the other hand are just a troll.
| 1270 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:52:48pm |
re: #1262 TheMatrix31
Can't make an argument even with a teleprompter and a research staff, eh? Never thought I'd have anything in common with Barack Obama.
That was a good parroting of the propaganda you've heard! I am impressed by how well you've been brainwashed.
| 1271 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:53:06pm |
| 1272 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:53:30pm |
re: #1270 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm impressed at how much of a dickwad you can be.
| 1273 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:53:52pm |
re: #1269 Cato the Elder
I'll be sure to trust you on that.
| 1274 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:54:16pm |
re: #1258 BryanS
Cute line about Palin, but certainly isn't very nice.
"Nice" is above my pay grade. ;^)
| 1275 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:54:17pm |
re: #1271 TheMatrix31
Yeah but I'm not the smart one. He is.
Right?
/
It's true. He is much smarter than you. That's why I despise him more. He should know better. You are stupid enough to almost be innocent.
| 1276 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:54:55pm |
re: #1272 TheMatrix31
I'm impressed at how much of a dickwad you can be.
And yet Baggy won't comment on that... or any of the other crap thrown at me tonight...
| 1277 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:56:07pm |
re: #1275 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't claim to be a genius. You do.
| 1278 |
checked08 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:56:14pm |
CAT FIGHT. lol...God, I hate working at night.
| 1279 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:57:08pm |
re: #1268 LudwigVanQuixote
You really won't quit will you.
Matrix at least believes in what he is saying. You on the other hand are just a troll.
No Ludwig, I believe what I write as well, and I do so without resort to profanity, hatred or excessive anger. You should try that.
Hatred is an ugly thing, it eats at the soul, I don't hate you, but I strongly object to your behaviour when you are ranting away as you did on this thread.
Note that I am only one of several you were hating on and swearing at tonight.
| 1280 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:57:42pm |
re: #1253 LudwigVanQuixote
Fair enough. I don't need to fight Guaxni's battles for him anyways. Figured id just clarify what I meant by that comment. This thread was so fast and furious I might have mentally put words in your mouth. I still disagree with much of what you said in this thread, and still label 90% of it as hyperbole. I'd be happy to help you go through the evidence from NK, the USSR, China and other authoritarian regimes to help you understand why the comparisons you made are so hurtful to some people. I truly believe there is a difference between whats occurred at Gitmo and Abu Grab, and the fact that the USSR had prison camps so large that entirely new cities had to be founded to administrate the entire thing. You're free as always to disagree however. Ain't America grand?
| 1281 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:57:44pm |
re: #1277 TheMatrix31
I don't claim to be a genius. You do.
I know that talking to people who are smarter and better educated than you must be a drag. It must happen top you everyday. no wonder you are so bitter.
| 1282 |
Bagua Wed, Nov 18, 2009 10:59:50pm |
re: #1281 LudwigVanQuixote
I know that talking to people who are smarter and better educated than you must be a drag. It must happen top you everyday. no wonder you are so bitter.
Wow, such arrogance and spite. TheMatrix31 is a sincere and good person, you Ludwig are really acting like a bully again tonight.
| 1283 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:00:09pm |
re: #1280 McSpiff
Fair enough. I don't need to fight Guaxni's battles for him anyways. Figured id just clarify what I meant by that comment. This thread was so fast and furious I might have mentally put words in your mouth. I still disagree with much of what you said in this thread, and still label 90% of it as hyperbole. I'd be happy to help you go through the evidence from NK, the USSR, China and other authoritarian regimes to help you understand why the comparisons you made are so hurtful to some people. I truly believe there is a difference between whats occurred at Gitmo and Abu Grab, and the fact that the USSR had prison camps so large that entirely new cities had to be founded to administrate the entire thing. You're free as always to disagree however. Ain't America grand?
Look I am not saying, nor did I say that we have become North Korea or Russia or China. What I said was that those regimes torture and hold people without trial or fair representation indefinitely.
Those are true statements.
I also said that America is better than they are because we vow not to do those things. I went on to say that we should keep those vows and that breaking them is against all the principles of America.
Those are also true statements.
| 1284 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:00:34pm |
re: #1281 LudwigVanQuixote
So nice of you to insult my intelligence. I bet that makes you feel like a bigger man, right? You're pretty fuckin' cool, goin' around insulting people's intelligence like that. Pretty classy. So adult of you, you know, for being a respected member of this board and a heralded scientist, right?
| 1285 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:00:34pm |
| 1286 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:02:26pm |
re: #1284 TheMatrix31
So nice of you to insult my intelligence. I bet that makes you feel like a bigger man, right? You're pretty fuckin' cool, goin' around insulting people's intelligence like that. Pretty classy. So adult of you, you know, for being a respected member of this board and a heralded scientist, right?
No not really, I've met special needs fourth graders who are more cogent and learned than you. Claiming to be brighter than you is kind of like claiming to have more understanding of Quantum Theory than W. Bush. It's not much of a feat.
| 1287 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:03:08pm |
Now, now, everybody take a step back and listen to a funny song from the very young (and hot) Joni Mitchell.
Her facial expressions are enough to make you think she should've been an actress.
| 1288 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:03:37pm |
re: #1286 LudwigVanQuixote
Wow...going after special needs students now, eh? Keep it classy.
| 1289 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:04:07pm |
re: #1283 LudwigVanQuixote
Fair enough. The nations you listed make me think genocide, not torture. I usually use examples like egypt, cuba, syria for torture.
| 1291 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:06:40pm |
re: #1282 Bagua
Wow, such arrogance and spite. TheMatrix31 is a sincere and good person, you Ludwig are really acting like a bully again tonight.
No Douchebagua. Bullies keep trying to drum up sympathy for their antics when they get a beat down and their other tactics fail.
That would be you.
I'm sorry, but you don't impress me. Your projections don't impress either.
So really go away. If you hate talking to me so much then stop. You said you would. You always say you will. Live up to it. I take no pleasure from constantly having to type why you are stupid and pathetic. I take no pleasure in reading your insipid replies or attempts to piss me off.
I find you reprehensible, idiotic, crass and low brow.
I find you ignorant, foolish and uneducated.
I find you a total schmuck.
I detest you.
So really... Piss off like you promised.
| 1292 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:07:44pm |
re: #1289 McSpiff
Fair enough. The nations you listed make me think genocide, not torture. I usually use examples like egypt, cuba, syria for torture.
All good.
| 1293 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:08:55pm |
re: #1288 TheMatrix31
Wow...going after special needs students now, eh? Keep it classy.
No not at all. I said that they were more cogent and better educated than you.
| 1294 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:10:50pm |
re: #1288 TheMatrix31
Wow...going after special needs students now, eh? Keep it classy.
No. He's comparing them favorably to you.
| 1295 |
McSpiff Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:10:56pm |
re: #1292 LudwigVanQuixote
All good.
Well, I think I'm either migrating to the over night thread, or bed. It's 3 am in my part of the world...
| 1297 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:13:20pm |
re: #1294 Cato the Elder
It's not right to bring them up at all. As if they're somehow lesser human beings.
"EVEN THEY ARE SMARTER THAN YOU!"
Then again, you guys are Obama supporters. You probably found nothing wrong with his Special Olympics failure either, I 'd bet.
| 1298 |
Palmer_Eldritch Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:14:14pm |
re: #221 Fenway_Nation
I agree. Obama should not have said KSM would be convicted. Ain't he a lawyer? Cause I'm pretty sure they cover innocent until proved guilty pretty early in the semester at law school...
Our legal system and its dedication to fairness for all is one of the things that makes our nation great. We should show it off. Secrecy gives cover to the lies that help recruit terrorists. Ultimately we gain traction with moderate Muslims when we lead by example.
What are the primary differences between military tribunals and criminal trials...?
| 1299 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:15:09pm |
re: #1297 TheMatrix31
It's not right to bring them up at all. As if they're somehow lesser human beings.
"EVEN THEY ARE SMARTER THAN YOU!"
Then again, you guys are Obama supporters. You probably found nothing wrong with his Special Olympics failure either, I 'd bet.
Even a dead spermatozoon is smarter than you are, my fiend.
| 1300 |
palomino Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:23:05pm |
re: #99 albusteve
all this image bullshit is for sobbing liberals who ignore Americas track record...it's exactly the same with the corrupt HRC...terrorists become victims...you people are utterly laughable...America has nothing to prove to you or the rest of the world...Jimmah is concerned about Americas image...give me a break you sissy...are you an American?...peddle your wrist wringing wares elsewhere...you don't count amigo
Right, let's just ignore the rest of the world. After all, the US has FOUR percent of the world's population and FOUR percent of its land mass! How could it possibly be in our interests to have good relations with other countries?
Sure, the terrorists are scum who don't deserve anything. But one of the many things that makes us better than them is our legal system. Even in a time of crisis--maybe especially then--we insure things like rule of law and due process.
| 1301 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:24:58pm |
re: #1299 Cato the Elder
Even a dead spermatozoon is smarter than you are, my fiend.
That's a big word for him... try this... You know that squirrel you flattened on the road and that your buddy skeeter wanted to cook... well even dead and all squished, it was smarter than you.
| 1302 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:26:02pm |
re: #1294 Cato the Elder
No. He's comparing them favorably to you.
Yeah kinda my point, but alas, he was too stupid to see that.
| 1303 |
newscaper Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:28:55pm |
Terrible idea, going to a standard criminal court with this guy (whom the Geneva Convention does not cover either) is an utter mismatch. Cant decide whether its simply incompetence, a chance to indirectly put the CIA, Cheney etc on trial in a sop the far left base, or intended to serve as a distraction while Obama keeps pushing his domestic agenda.
The objections should be obvious, Defense Lawyer 101 stuff:
"Were you read your Miranda Rights and properly arrested when taken into custody?"
"How was that 'right to remain silent' working during waterboarding?"
"You Honor, it is impossible for my client to receive a fair trial in NYC"
Following standard criminal trial methods, its perfectly possible the case could get dismissed.
After that, would he be released? Still imprisoned in spite of winning?
Or is the fix just transparently in?
*None* of those is good for our country.
| 1304 |
Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:29:50pm |
re: #1300 palomino
Right, let's just ignore the rest of the world. After all, the US has FOUR percent of the world's population and FOUR percent of its land mass! How could it possibly be in our interests to have good relations with other countries?
Sure, the terrorists are scum who don't deserve anything. But one of the many things that makes us better than them is our legal system. Even in a time of crisis--maybe especially then--we insure things like rule of law and due process.
Agree with your post overall, but (here comes the nitpick) you should have said SIX instead of FOUR in the 2 places above...the USA is larger than 4% of the world...just sayin'...
:-)
| 1305 |
claire Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:32:40pm |
re: #1232 Obdicut
And they were fighting for a segregated nation with institutionalized, accepted racism.
Can't let this slide, sorry. Even with all the faults of our society at that time in history, we were far better people than anyone we were fighting in WWII. Is this what they are teaching kids now, that even WWII wasn't worth it? How old are you?
| 1306 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:36:25pm |
re: #1298 Palmer_Eldritch
Military tribunals would presumably be covered under already existing regulations in the Universal Code of Military Justice as opposed to the constitution.
Even if I didn't have a problem with Holder moving KSM to Manhattan for a civilian trial, the President really and truly screwed the pooch by announcing a 'guilty' verdict well in advance. You think the trial would be viewed by those who sympathize with KSM as a fair and open process?
And successful mass-casualty terrorist attacks along with knowing the worst that would happen to you should you be captured is you'd be afforded some rights you had never even dreamed of along with the discovery process @ your disposal and food and lodging (however unglamourous) paid for by the people you've sworn to kill are far more effective a recruiting tool than military tribunals.
| 1308 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Nov 18, 2009 11:45:16pm |
re: #1306 Fenway_Nation
Military tribunals would presumably be covered under already existing regulations in the Universal Code of Military Justice as opposed to the constitution.
Even if I didn't have a problem with Holder moving KSM to Manhattan for a civilian trial, the President really and truly screwed the pooch by announcing a 'guilty' verdict well in advance. You think the trial would be viewed by those who sympathize with KSM as a fair and open process?
And successful mass-casualty terrorist attacks along with knowing the worst that would happen to you should you be captured is you'd be afforded some rights you had never even dreamed of along with the discovery process @ your disposal and food and lodging (however unglamourous) paid for by the people you've sworn to kill are far more effective a recruiting tool than military tribunals.
Because our case is so weak that they could not possibly be afforded a trial. If that is the case, the word for them is innocent!
And further, yeah knowing that if they are captured they will be treated fairly is what makes them surrender rather than fight to the death. Of course iff they think they will be tortured and treated abominably, they will not surrender and we will have to fight them to the death and risk our own guys lives while having to kill them.
Not to mention that making them think that is a huge recruitment tool for them that means we have even more to fight. Your arguments could not be more wrong.
| 1309 |
Fenway_Nation Thu, Nov 19, 2009 12:14:10am |
re: #1308 LudwigVanQuixote
Hmm...must've missed the part where you clearly and unambiguously explained how providing the right to counsel, the discovery process, the right to question one's accuser, access to a list of witnesses, the ability to filibuster in court and having food and lodging food and lodging would deter new recruits from joining up with Al Qaeda. If I found out that my enemies were required by their own laws to treat us no different than a Time Square pickpocket for all intents and purposes and the ones reponsible for pursuing us were hamstrung by increasingly contradictory regulations and requirements, why wouldn't I join?
| 1310 |
jordash1212 Thu, Nov 19, 2009 12:52:29am |
Why not? They need to be tried. Where else are they going to be tried? ICJ isn't happening. I'd be more irritated by Obama if he tried to process them through ICJ. On the other hand, they can't be held in Guantanamo, and moving them to Fort Leavenworth without trial is anti-American. I'm glad there's some closure with this. The world needs to see we're putting 9/11 behind us. Prosecuting 5 remaining perpetrators is a good way to do that.
| 1311 |
littleugly Thu, Nov 19, 2009 2:31:17am |
1310 jordash1212
"I'm glad there's some closure with this. The world needs to see we're putting 9/11 behind us. Prosecuting 5 remaining perpetrators is a good way to do that."
The terrorists will get their trials,
Civil, State, Federal, Military, World...who cares
We are busy preparing for Thanksgiving and Christmas,
But jordash1212,
WE WILL NEVER FORGET
| 1312 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 4:18:16am |
re: #41 albusteve
which in fact compromises the whole thing...unbelievable...guilty before charged?
Verdict first, trial second.
| 1313 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 4:21:47am |
re: #1235 Cato the Elder
And we're dealing with this, late and imperfectly. And there it is.
| 1314 |
Right Brain Thu, Nov 19, 2009 4:33:22am |
In the 233 year history of the United States we have never taken an enemy combatant off the field of battle and tried them in a civilian court.
Never, not once.
When Eric Holder was asked by a senator yesterday if we had ever taken an enemy combatant and tried him in a civilian court, he looked downright puzzled, as if it had never occurred to him. The senator had to answer "no" for him.
That hearing will be viewed as a critical moment in the rapidly ending Obama administration: The appointed AG of the United States hasn't a clue what he is doing.
| 1315 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 4:35:54am |
re: #946 Bagua
You didn't understand my post in the least, is the problem.
| 1316 |
Liberal Classic Thu, Nov 19, 2009 4:57:44am |
Terrorists apprehended on U.S. soil by domestic law enforcement agencies in the act of plotting crimes should be tried in civilian courts. Terrorists apprehended on foreign soil by the military in the act of making war should be extracted of any valuable information, brought before a military court, and shot at dawn.
This actually *is* the rule of law. I consider myself a strong advocate of natural rights, human rights, and civil rights. It does not threaten civil liberty to hold non-uniformed non-conventional-warfare fighters to a different standard than domestic criminals. To the contrary, such a thing is desirable and necessary.
| 1317 |
freetoken Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:00:24am |
re: #1314 Right Brain
In the 233 year history of the United States we have never taken an enemy combatant off the field of battle and tried them in a civilian court.
Are you claiming that we have not prosecuted (via the criminal system) terrorists before?
It seems you're trying to define away the issue here by saying the 5 individuals in question are only like the combatants of nations we have fought via declared (by Congress, UN mandate, or whatever) wars.
If the people involved in the previous attack on the WTC were subject to trial, then why not those who were part of (by direction and conspiracy) the second attack?
| 1318 |
Liberal Classic Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:03:55am |
re: #1317 freetoken
The perpetrators of the 1993 WTC bombing were captured in the U.S. by the police.
| 1319 |
freetoken Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:14:11am |
re: #1318 Liberal Classic
Understand your distinction, but wasn't sure of RightBrain's argument.
On your point, though I understand at what you are driving, I'm still uncomfortable with the idea that the final determiner of how any individual is treated, and justice dispensed, is solely due to the the nature of the agent apprehending him.
| 1320 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:17:11am |
re: #272 WindUpBird
But Ted Kaczynski and Tim McVeigh are okay for the same rights and protections, right?
I'm okay either way, military or federal, but I'm not going to flip out if these guys are given a trial just like McVeigh was.
Those were American citizens caught on American soil. They absolutely should have been in federal court.
| 1321 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:17:27am |
Day shift punching back in. How goes the battle?
| 1322 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:23:11am |
re: #1317 freetoken
Are you claiming that we have not prosecuted (via the criminal system) terrorists before?
It seems you're trying to define away the issue here by saying the 5 individuals in question are only like the combatants of nations we have fought via declared (by Congress, UN mandate, or whatever) wars.
If the people involved in the previous attack on the WTC were subject to trial, then why not those who were part of (by direction and conspiracy) the second attack?
Actually it is both a federal crime to bomb our buildings and an act of war. The call could easily be made either way legally. That is just a fact.
What is not a fact is that these people are given the status of POWs. They most pointedly were not given that status to avoid having to give them the rights and protections of the Geneva Conventions.
What is also not a fact is that these people were given any form of fair representation in a speedy trial.
What is also not a fact is that it is somehow legal to torture.
| 1323 |
freetoken Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:23:14am |
re: #1321 Decatur Deb
Apparently there was quite a food fight earlier.
| 1324 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:23:49am |
re: #328 Killgore Trout
John Walker Lindh is the only case I can think of where he was picked up overseas by the CIA/military and brought back for trial.
American citizen. Clear case of jurisdiction.
| 1325 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:25:09am |
re: #1320 Sharmuta
Those were American citizens caught on American soil. They absolutely should have been in federal court.
Respectfully, we have tried others for harming (or attempting to harm) Americans or American interests before, even if they were foreign nationals or not on American soil at the time of their crimes.
Richard Reid is a good example.
Another example of international law applied in such a case was with the Lockerbie bombers.
| 1326 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:26:13am |
re: #1323 freetoken
Apparently there was quite a food fight earlier.
I hung with it until 10 Central Time. Perhaps someone will write an epic poem.
(The Silliad).
| 1327 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:27:33am |
re: #1326 Decatur Deb
I hung with it until 10 Central Time. Perhaps someone will write an epic poem.
(The Silliad).
I don't think that there is anything silly about not standing up for the core values of America. Honestly, I am disgusted with many here.
| 1328 |
freetoken Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:28:04am |
re: #1322 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually it is both a federal crime to bomb our buildings and an act of war. The call could easily be made either way legally. That is just a fact.
I'm not disputing that the 5 in question could have faced a military trial, nor would I object if that had been the decision. It's just that some people seem to want to make it sound as if this is all cut and dried.
| 1329 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:29:43am |
re: #1309 Fenway_Nation
Hmm...must've missed the part where you clearly and unambiguously explained how providing the right to counsel, the discovery process, the right to question one's accuser, access to a list of witnesses, the ability to filibuster in court and having food and lodging food and lodging would deter new recruits from joining up with Al Qaeda. If I found out that my enemies were required by their own laws to treat us no different than a Time Square pickpocket for all intents and purposes and the ones reponsible for pursuing us were hamstrung by increasingly contradictory regulations and requirements, why wouldn't I join?
Uhh because then we are not the evil empire that they claim we are. Because more importantly, they will have reason to surrender if surrounded and not fight to the death.
Try that on.
| 1330 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:30:38am |
re: #1327 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't think that there is anything silly about not standing up for the core values of America. Honestly, I am disgusted with many here.
LVQ, I could have given you a dozen more updings for your position, but I couldn't endorse the invective. It shows me why it's better to stick to short, even silly, counterpunches.
| 1331 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:30:59am |
| 1332 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:32:48am |
re: #1328 freetoken
I'm not disputing that the 5 in question could have faced a military trial, nor would I object if that had been the decision. It's just that some people seem to want to make it sound as if this is all cut and dried.
They seem to think it is about either a military tribunal or civilian trial.
That was never the issue.
The issue was a fair and speedy trial under some legitimate and open jurisdiction. Had that been done under a military court then so be it. However, these people were detained at Gitmo, and denied POW status in order to prevent such a thing.
The issue was not detaining people for years without a hearing.
The issue was not torturing our prisoners.
The issue was living up to what we are supposed to stand for. Now that we are finally doing something along those lines it is a good thing.
The issue was upholding our principles.
| 1333 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:33:50am |
re: #1330 Decatur Deb
LVQ, I could have given you a dozen more updings for your position, but I couldn't endorse the invective. It shows me why it's better to stick to short, even silly, counterpunches.
Honestly I started swinging back. After 15 fuck yous it is hard not to. Particularly when the people doing it are standing for tearing down America.
| 1334 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:36:15am |
re: #397 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
You honestly think these guys would have gotten this far with Washington, Adams and Jefferson?
I don't think so.
They would be dead under General Washington.
| 1335 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:36:38am |
re: #1333 LudwigVanQuixote
Yeah, the anger level went high pretty early in the thread.
| 1336 |
freetoken Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:39:52am |
re: #1332 LudwigVanQuixote
They seem to think it is about either a military tribunal or civilian trial.
That was never the issue.
The issue was a fair and speedy trial under some legitimate and open jurisdiction.
Understand from where you are coming.
Indeed, Eric Posner summarized some of this well in his article over on volokh.com:
Why Has Holder Decided to Try Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in a Civilian Court?
Endless detention without trial is no longer a politically viable option.
There are several conversations going on in this thread, as one would expect on this particular issue.
I have no personal preference (or insight to drive one) on whether a military trial or a civilian trial would be preferable. I do agree that indefinite retention without a trial is profoundly un-American.
| 1337 |
Liberal Classic Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:40:45am |
re: #1319 freetoken
I'm still uncomfortable with the idea that the final determiner of how any individual is treated, and justice dispensed, is solely due to the the nature of the agent apprehending him.
I can respect that. I really do. Part of me wants to agree that we should hold all human beings to the same standard. However, I've decided that holding different people to different standards is intellectually and morally justified, not simple pragmatism.
The reason I accept the distinction is not simply because of which agency apprehends them. It is also related to the what, when, how, where, and why they were doing at the time they were apprehended. During the Gulf War and the Iraq War, uniformed Iraqi soldiers were captured in mass. As state actors bearing the colors of their nation, they were afforded protection under international law as prisoners of war. The vast majority of these prisoners were released. High-ranking officers of the Iraqi Baathist party were tried in courts established by the newly reformed Iraqi government. Similar trials were held in Germany and Japan after World War II.
Non-uniformed non-conventional-warfare fighters essentially thumb their nose at any law of war. They are fighting a much different kind of war than the Iraqi soldiers we defeated in 1991 and 2003. The Geneva Conventions are an attempt (often not successful) to reduce the impact of warfare on civilian populations. Terrorists, by definition, target civilian populations. In my opinion, the actions or terrorists disqualify them from any protections established by international treaties regarding rules of warfare. In fighting an irregular war, they give up their rights. In sum, it has to do with the nature of the war they are waging on us that determines how we should treat them.
| 1338 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:42:51am |
Actually I have been musing on this thread a lot.
The core of America is our notion of due process and rights granted to individuals as self evident things.
This is what I was taught. This is what my grandparents told me they were fighting for against evil nations that did not uphold such things.
Yet on this very thread, I saw a lot of invective about not giving these people a fair trial. I saw a lot of statements that they have no rights and the implication that our justice is so weak that it can not afford to see justice done to all - even terrorists. We win against them by upholding what they would tear down.
After a night of musing on it, I have only become more disgusted with so many here.
The issue is not if they are tried in a civilian court or a military one. The issue is that they have a fair, speedy and open trial. The issue is that some of those detained might actually be innocent. Not KSM, but perhaps some of the others we picked up.
The argument that our intelligence is infallible and therefore sufficient to convict is ludicrous. It is all the more ludicrous because the same people who would say that here are the ones who defend Bush and Cheney's lies about an atomic program in Iraq because they claim there was faulty intelligence. They trust the government to seize individuals without oversight, torture them and perhaps execute them without an honest trial, but they don't trust the government to do healthcare.
The hypocrisy is mind numbing.
| 1339 |
Fenway_Nation Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:43:19am |
re: #1329 LudwigVanQuixote
Uhh because then we are not the evil empire that they claim we are. Because more importantly, they will have reason to surrender if surrounded and not fight to the death.
Try that on.
"We love death more than you love life"
But I'm sure they'd give up martyrdom on the battlefield for a trial in NYC.
'They'? I'm pretty sure you were the one making the argument how evil and totalitarian we were for not bringing KSM to manhattan post-haste.
| 1340 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:44:22am |
re: #1327 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't think that there is anything silly about not standing up for the core values of America. Honestly, I am disgusted with many here.
During what time period has America lived up to those values?
America is a dream, dude, it's a work in progress. It started with a compromise about slavery. It committed near-genocide against American Indians. It's manufactured wars, engaged in invasions to benefit corporate interests-- the phrase 'banana republic' was invented to describe our actions.
But the interesting thing is that along the way, we've actually been getting better. We ended slavery, we gave women the right to vote, we've moved forwards in a thousand and one ways.
Bush put is in a hole, with the actions that he took. These prisoners are the epitome of a gray area. I don't like the way they were captured-- but I know there's legal precedent for keeping a prisoner in arrest even if arrested by a crooked cop. I don't like the way they were treated-- but I know there's legal precedent for not excluding other evidence even in the presence of tainted evidence. There are a hundred things I don't like about the position we're in, but that's hardly important.
I am no lawyer. I want them accorded justice, I want it delivered in fairness. I think, as I said, that the federal court is the best, and truest place for them.
However, that does not mean I don't think a military tribunal could dispense justice. I have no idea why you think this, either, why you think our court system is the only fair and just realm for trials of this sort. I do think that, though they have no country and no true people, that the terrorists who planned and committed 9/11 feel that they are at war with us. I would rather strip them of that illusion by prosecuting them in federal court. I do think we would lose something by prosecuting them in a military tribunal, but it's not that we would lose the rule of law.
Maybe this is because, unlike you, I'm not a religious man. I have no belief in an afterlife, in a world of perfect forms, of a knowing and just god. What matters to me are people, and the welfare and advancement and happiness of them. And I am every day proud of humanity for actually progressing, for not simply going in ever-decreasing circles. I still think we may kill ourselves off before we spread out amongst the stars, but I'm hopeful.
To me, your position requires incredibly naivete about what America has done in the past, and an insistence on painting a muddy legal picture in black and white that, frankly, I doubt you have the legal credentials to understand. It ignores that we have many prisoners here in the US who are slowly being freed, one at a time, by the Innocence Project, who are fighting to liberate those wrongly incarcerated. The legal system is busy, right now, attempting to prosecute them for doing so, or otherwise smear them.
I consider that a much larger betrayal of American values than whether KSM will get one form of trial or another form of trial.
| 1341 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:44:23am |
re: #1334 Sharmuta
They would be dead under General Washington.
After a fair trial that was open and speedy. They also would not have been tortured.
Would you care to look at how Washington handled John André?
| 1342 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:45:28am |
re: #1336 freetoken
There are several conversations going on in this thread, as one would expect on this particular issue.
I have no personal preference (or insight to drive one) on whether a military trial or a civilian trial would be preferable. I do agree that indefinite retention without a trial is profoundly un-American.
And that was always the point.
| 1343 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:46:44am |
re: #1337 Liberal Classic
Terrorists, by definition, target civilian populations. In my opinion, the actions or terrorists disqualify them from any protections established by international treaties regarding rules of warfare. In fighting an irregular war, they give up their rights. In sum, it has to do with the nature of the war they are waging on us that determines how we should treat them.
That's why I don't grant them the fictitious status of "combatant". They are criminals, and nothing more. The closest equivalents are pirates or brigands.
| 1344 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:47:03am |
re: #1340 Obdicut
America has never been perfect, but we managed to give fair trials to German and Japanese war criminals openly and with adequate representation and without recourse to torture. We did manage to do it much better before than we did now against far graver foes.
| 1345 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:49:04am |
Fenway, you gonna downding everything?
Actually I really don't care.
How about instead you explain why MacArthur, Eisenhower and Patton were so opposed to torture, and in light of that and you false claims of military kinship, explain why they were wrong and you know better than them?
| 1346 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:49:31am |
re: #1342 LudwigVanQuixote
If that was your point, you presented your case absolutely terribly. It did not seem in any way that you were restricting your comments to those who support indefinite detention and/or torture. You seemed to be painting with a much broader brush.
Though, I'd note, that President Obama and Holder, apparently still do support indefinite detention without trial.
| 1347 |
Liberal Classic Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:51:55am |
re: #1343 Decatur Deb
I think the term that would have been used in WWII would have been 'partisans'. They are fighting for a certain cause, they blend into the civilian population, gather intelligence to execute civilian and political leaders opposed to their faction, have an informal rank structure.
| 1348 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:51:56am |
re: #1346 Obdicut
If that was your point, you presented your case absolutely terribly. It did not seem in any way that you were restricting your comments to those who support indefinite detention and/or torture. You seemed to be painting with a much broader brush.
Though, I'd note, that President Obama and Holder, apparently still do support indefinite detention without trial.
Really, I only wrote that clearly about five times.
I only explained that military tribunals would be great if they were fair speedy and open and did not use torture. How many times does one need to write that before it gets seen?
| 1349 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:52:54am |
Please answer the question Fenway. I am really in no mood to deal with your shenanigans.
| 1350 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:52:56am |
re: #1344 LudwigVanQuixote
And we managed to execute some German POWs on the battlefield, too. And Japanese as well. Isolated incidents, and not policy.
And we managed to bomb population centers, causing firestorms that killed children by the thousands. We don't do that anymore.
The torture has happened already, dude. You can't stop it from happening. It happened. America tortured. It joins our sins. Our many sins.
I think that they would have adequate representation at a military trial. I do not think their trial in New York will be more 'fair' or that they will be listened to with any more sympathy.
| 1351 |
Fenway_Nation Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:54:31am |
re: #1333 LudwigVanQuixote
Honestly I started swinging back. After 15 fuck yous it is hard not to. Particularly when the people doing it are standing for tearing down America.
Aww...does the last true patriot want me to bake a fresh batch of martyr cookies?
And as for military kinship, I'll put my DD214 up against yours, bright boy.
| 1352 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:54:36am |
re: #1350 Obdicut
And we managed to execute some German POWs on the battlefield, too. And Japanese as well. Isolated incidents, and not policy.
And we managed to bomb population centers, causing firestorms that killed children by the thousands. We don't do that anymore.
The torture has happened already, dude. You can't stop it from happening. It happened. America tortured. It joins our sins. Our many sins.
I think that they would have adequate representation at a military trial. I do not think their trial in New York will be more 'fair' or that they will be listened to with any more sympathy.
I think that a military tribunal has had its image so tarnished by the machinations of the last administration that it would always be subject to question. However, in principle, yes, I have no problem with a fair, speedy and open tribunal.
| 1353 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:55:12am |
re: #1351 Fenway_Nation
Aww...does the last true patriot want me to bake a fresh batch of martyr cookies?
And as for military kinship, I'll put my DD214 up against yours, bright boy.
Good then you can follow those orders about not torturing and assume they were made for good reason.
| 1354 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:55:24am |
Just stopped by to garrote the wounded. Good day, all.
| 1355 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:59:11am |
re: #1339 Fenway_Nation
"We love death more than you love life"
But I'm sure they'd give up martyrdom on the battlefield for a trial in NYC.
'They'? I'm pretty sure you were the one making the argument how evil and totalitarian we were for not bringing KSM to manhattan post-haste.
And you missed absolutely every other point made. This is not just about KSM.
| 1356 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:05:01am |
re: #1348 LudwigVanQuixote
Gee, do you think that you were busy launching into masisvely hyperbolic invective and defining yourself as the true American who could decide the moral worth of others might have had anything to do with people misunderstanding you?
Saying things like "I say it firmly. You are all pathetic." is never going to work.
I saw nobody, nobody at all calling for indefinite detention before you entered the thread. Nobody approving of it. I did see some of the usual ignorant 'they don't deserve rights because they're not American citizens', which I really do feel is ignorance in civics rather than sycophantic evil.
You directed your comment to "the right", on a blog where most of the members feel they are on "the right".
I am really tired of the phony whining of the right, that we might actually live up to the ideals we are supposed to.
That you ever after only spoke against torture and indefinite retention is true, from a brief summary, but the manner in which you did it gained you nothing, and lost you much. By entering with a broad brush, it wasn't clear to me, or to anyone else, apparently, that that was the constraint of your criticism.
I do think you're responsible for the way you deliver your message, as well as the content of that message.
Compare Lister and Semmelweis. They were both perfectly right. Semmelweis failed. It didn't matter that he was right.
| 1357 |
Frogmarch Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:07:52am |
So Rudy has come out against the civil court in NY decision. The media lie/spin is that Rudy is all for it.
| 1358 |
Frogmarch Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:17:13am |
re: #1338 LudwigVanQuixote
After a night of musing on it, I have only become more disgusted with so many here.
That's nice.
KSM and company are not American citizens. They aren't members of a foreign military. They are terrorists hell bent on destroying the US.
The left are hell bent on trying GWB.
Next.
The issue is not if they are tried in a civilian court or a military one. The issue is that they have a fair, SPEEDY and open trial. The issue is that some of those detained might actually be innocent. Not KSM, but perhaps some of the others we picked up.
Speedy? Speedy? You must be joking, right?
The argument that our intelligence is infallible and therefore sufficient to convict is ludicrous.
You do realize that KSM has confessed and bragged proudly about his master plan?
| 1359 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:20:22am |
re: #1356 Obdicut
NO I actually didn't. I directed my comments to:
To those of you who fear actually applying the law
And those folks are a part of the right. Just not any right that cares about applying the law in a speedy, fair or open way.
How many of them wrote about the detainees not having any rights. Fenway was just now going on about how a real trial would be a bad thing because of things like right of discovery. Others wrote about how the intelligence was good enough already. Others wrote about how they do not care about any trial at all.
So few actually cared about little things like due process or the rule of law.
Earlier there were a bunch of them still trying to claim that waterboarding is not torture, and a smaller set that said, yes it is, so what.
So to those... well, they are not so very American in their views at all. Certainly not the America I was taught to believe in, or that their other words about loving liberty and all the patriotic speechification about loving what America stands for would imply.
No they are hypocrites for the reasons mentioned.
They tool real offence at pointing out that nations like Russia and China and North Korea also hold people without any fairness, openness or due process and they too torture. They really hate that the things they are proudly claiming America ought to do are what these other nations actually do.
So no, it was quite apt to address them as such. They are jingoistic hypocrites at best and those who would gleefully tear down all America stands for at worst.
| 1360 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:23:58am |
re: #1358 Frogmarch
You do realize that KSM has confessed and bragged proudly about his master plan?
You do realize that we are holding a lot more people than KSM and that many we picked up and held for years were actually innocent? As I keep saying, again and again, it is not just about KSM.
You do realize that if he is so clearly guilty and our case so air tight, then a tril should be no problem. What are you worrying about?
But what really disturbs me is...
"We hold these rights to be self evident that all men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights"
Not some men. Not only American men. ALL MEN. So as you wave that flag, why not learn what it stands for.
What does "self evident" mean to you? You clearly do not see this as self evident, so then let me ask, what other American values do you wish to throw out?
| 1361 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:28:29am |
re: #1360 LudwigVanQuixote
You do realize that we are holding a lot more people than KSM and that many we picked up and held for years were actually innocent? As I keep saying, again and again, it is not just about KSM.
You do realize that if he is so clearly guilty and our case so air tight, then a tril should be no problem. What are you worrying about?
But what really disturbs me is...
"We hold these rights to be self evident that all men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights"
Not some men. Not only American men. ALL MEN. So as you wave that flag, why not learn what it stands for.
What does "self evident" mean to you? You clearly do not see this as self evident, so then let me ask, what other American values do you wish to throw out?
Sharmuta will tell you that those words don't count, because they're only in the Declaration of Independence, not in the Constitution. She told me I was stupid for quoting them. Stupid like a creationist.
Just looking ahead to the "arguments" you'll get from the likes of her.
| 1362 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:29:44am |
re: #1357 Frogmarch
So Rudy has come out against the civil court in NY decision. The media lie/spin is that Rudy is all for it.
Well, he used to be for civilian trials for terrorists before he was against them, so no wonder the MSM is confused.
| 1363 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:31:47am |
re: #1359 LudwigVanQuixote
NO I actually didn't. I directed my comments to:
You failed to communicate that effectively.
Fenway was just now going on about how a real trial would be a bad thing because of things like right of discovery.
Which is a valid concern, especially coming from a soldier who's worried about other soldiers being put in harms way.
Earlier there were a bunch of them still trying to claim that waterboarding is not torture, and a smaller set that said, yes it is, so what.
Waterboarding is torture. Not much to be said about that, really.
So to those... well, they are not so very American in their views at all. Certainly not the America I was taught to believe in, or that their other words about loving liberty and all the patriotic speechification about loving what America stands for would imply.
It's entirely possible they are still standing up strongly for other parts of what you love about America, and failing on this. They can love liberty, and, because of being human, and having emotions, feel this way about this, and be wrong, and not be unAmerican or bad Americans in general. Being American is not like being a virgin.
No they are hypocrites for the reasons mentioned.
I absolutely guarantee you that I consider your stance on the first amendment way too restrictive and think that your position on it is unAmerican. Does that make you a hypocrite?
They tool real offence at pointing out that nations like Russia and China and North Korea also hold people without any fairness, openness or due process and they too torture. They really hate that the things they are proudly claiming America ought to do are what these other nations actually do.
That comparison was your biggest piece of idiocy, because when people think of those nations, they do not think of torture. They think of far, far worse crimes, committed regularly throughout their history, committed against their own citizens who were no physical threat to them whatsoever, during a time of no turmoil.
I do not forgive those who tortured. I think they have put a black stain on themselves that will never come off. But to pretend that we tortured like China has tortured is ludicrous. It's like comparing us to the Nazis because we both had camps. It is an entirely false equivalence, based on the idea that if you do this evil thing one time, it is as bad as a million times. It is wrong. Scale does, in fact, matter.
So no, it was quite apt to address them as such. They are jingoistic hypocrites at best and those who would gleefully tear down all America stands for at worst.
And again, I have no idea who you mean by them. Are you still talking about only those who said they endorsed torture? Denied it was torture? Supported indefinite detention? Or are you painting with a broader brush?
Because I took offense to that comment, so it seems you're talking to me, too.
| 1364 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:32:03am |
re: #1361 Cato the Elder
Sharmuta will tell you that those words don't count, because they're only in the Declaration of Independence, not in the Constitution. She told me I was stupid for quoting them. Stupid like a creationist.
Just looking ahead to the "arguments" you'll get from the likes of her.
Well I'm not interested in sniping at her. But if someone wants to go into the constitution then we can bring up that the right to a speedy trial and to know one's accusers is in there. We can go into the 5th amendment being made specifically to make torture an unviable option in a court of law. We can then go into all of that language about cruel and unusual punishment.
Just to name a few.
| 1365 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:40:17am |
re: #1363 Obdicut
To deny a fair and speedy and open trial is unamerican.
To torture is unamerican.
These are activities done by Russia, China and North Korea. Whether or not those nations have done far worse is irrelevant. In those nations, people are picked up, detained and held for ears without any rights. They are also tortured.
How is that different from picking up people, putting them in a legal grey zone and torturing them?
It isn't.
By denying a speedy trial to the accused, and defending that, and their treatment, those people are advocating for what happened as a good thing.
The fact of the matter, as was also clearly written by me more than once, is that any fair and open trial will give us closure. These people are opposed to that. Moreover, read what they are saying about the accused not having rights. Even in the last few posts.
No. Again, the criticism is apt.
As to the trial putting soldiers in harms way. That is ludicrous. Firing up the enemy by giving them the propaganda that we are everything their masters say we are harms more of our men. Or perhaps, letting KSM speak in court will hurt our troops? How? If he opens his mouth and goes Jihad, he gives us the propaganda win for actually detaining a clear monster (which of course he is).
| 1366 |
FrogMarch Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:47:07am |
re: #1362 Surabaya Stew
Well, he used to be for civilian trials for terrorists before he was against them, so no wonder the MSM is confused.
1994's terrorist attacks were --- just a little smaller on scale. But that's beside the point. Of course we have the best justice system in the world. Which is all he was basically saying back then. But no matter. We can take his comments out of context and push them into the future 15 years, and ignore what he is saying now-- Because it's incontinent to the narrative. I guess the media are desperate to give Holder some cover.
| 1367 |
FrogMarch Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:51:27am |
re: #1360 LudwigVanQuixote
You do realize that we are holding a lot more people than KSM and that many we picked up and held for years were actually innocent? As I keep saying, again and again, it is not just about KSM.
You do realize that if he is so clearly guilty and our case so air tight, then a tril should be no problem. What are you worrying about?
But what really disturbs me is...
"We hold these rights to be self evident that all men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights"
Not some men. Not only American men. ALL MEN. So as you wave that flag, why not learn what it stands for.
What does "self evident" mean to you? You clearly do not see this as self evident, so then let me ask, what other American values do you wish to throw out?
Maybe you could answer Lawhawk's question:
If Obama Administration is going ahead with duly constructed and authorized tribunals to deal with some detainees, why not use them for all but for their policy choice to prefer Article 3 courts (federal district courts) over the tribunals except in cases where the feds aren't sure that they can get convictions?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 1368 |
FrogMarch Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:56:33am |
re: #1366 FrogMarch
1993's terrorist attacks were --- just a little smaller on scale. But that's beside the point. Of course we have the best justice system in the world. Which is all he was basically saying back then. But no matter. We can take his comments out of context and push them into the future 15 years, and ignore what he is saying now-- Because it's incontinent to the narrative. I guess the media are desperate to give Holder some cover.
Corrections
1993's terrorist attacks. Rudy's comments were from 1994.
| 1369 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:57:03am |
re: #1366 FrogMarch
1994's terrorist attacks were --- just a little smaller on scale. But that's beside the point. Of course we have the best justice system in the world. Which is all he was basically saying back then. But no matter. We can take his comments out of context and push them into the future 15 years, and ignore what he is saying now-- Because it's incontinent to the narrative. I guess the media are desperate to give Holder some cover.
Rudy clearly supported the civilian trial of Zacarias Moussaoui. He wasn't accused of the 1993 (not 1994) attack on the WTC, but of the same 2001 attack that KSM is now about to be tried for. So of course its bad on his part to argue for Moussaoui to be tried by the feds but not KSM.
If you want to argue that its unwise to hold a mixture of civilian and military trials, then you may certainly have a point; Lawhawk has been very good at bringing up this potential weakness. However, defending Rudy and his sour grapes position re: civilian vs. military justice isn't going to cut it with me. The man is a 2-faced bastard who likes to pretend he's a conservative while he adopted 1000's of liberals laws and ran a 1-man fascist system of governance and retribution while mayor of my city.
| 1370 |
FrogMarch Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:58:27am |
re: #1369 Surabaya Stew
Moussaoui was caught in Minnesota.
| 1371 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:59:49am |
re: #1365 LudwigVanQuixote
You are not interested in listening to me, apparently. Your response wasn't at all connected to what I said.
I hope you manage to get past this moment.
| 1372 |
CapeCoddah Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:03:22am |
re: #1094 LudwigVanQuixote
Good Morning Everyone!
Ludwig, They sure are NOT POW's, and should never be classified as such. They are illegal combatants, who wear no uniform and hide in civillian areas to shield themselves. Take a look at the Geneva conventions, it is spelled oout specifically. Illegal combatants such as those are NOT eligible for POW status, and may be SHOT UPON CAPTURE. There are lots of good reasons for that. They have no rights at all, period. Certainly no rights to a trial by an AMERICAN jury, on US soil. after the information from waterboarding was obtained, they should have been taken out back and given two in the hat., but, since the war has become a PC run nightmare for the troops, they are not allowed to do what they need to do. That is solely the fault of liberals.
| 1373 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:04:38am |
re: #1370 FrogMarch
Moussaoui was caught in Minnesota.
A question of appropriate jurisdiction is also a valid argument against trying KSM in a civilian trial; however, Rudy wasn't phrasing his argument in that manner. Nor was he just against it, the man was playing political football against the administration. Which is the wrong thing to do, because there will be a time when Rudy is in the right re: something Obama has done, and nobody will listen because they think he's just playing partisan politics.
| 1374 |
CapeCoddah Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:05:26am |
re: #1332 LudwigVanQuixote
Are you really that stone stupid? Pity.
| 1375 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:05:42am |
| 1376 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:10:02am |
| 1377 |
gregb Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:10:13am |
I love polls.
I thought this issue was settled in 2001 when they switched from the Clinton Doctrine on terror to the GWOT.
Talk about tearing open new wounds.
| 1378 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:11:35am |
Anyone who says we torture people, or detain them unlawfully, or deny them a fair and speedy trial in whatever venue, is un-American, and should be detained indefinitely and tortured.
AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!
| 1379 |
CapeCoddah Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:12:51am |
re: #1378 Cato the Elder
Anyone who says we torture people, or detain them unlawfully, or deny them a fair and speedy trial in whatever venue, is un-American, and should be detained indefinitely and tortured.
AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!
We tortured no one.
| 1380 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:15:06am |
re: #1379 CapeCoddah
We tortured no one.
Yes we did. Waterboarding is torture. So is a lot of the crap that happened at Abu Gharib.
| 1381 |
CapeCoddah Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:17:25am |
Bullshit. No one was electrocuted, maimed, no blood was shed. no one lost eyes, hands, limbs.
We scared the shit out of them. Made them uncomfortable, saving untold numbers of innocent lives. No one was tortured, no one drowned or got so much as a hangnail. Bullshit.
| 1382 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:18:06am |
re: #1379 CapeCoddah
We tortured no one.
Yep. We did. We offer classes to soldiers in how to withstand torture. One of the techniques we subject them to in those classes is waterboarding. Therefore, by our own admission, waterboarding is torture.
Are you really that stone stupid?
| 1383 |
CapeCoddah Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:19:25am |
Nope, just educated and blessed with common sense. Hope you and the pooch are well in your northern hideaway.
| 1386 |
FrogMarch Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:25:19am |
re: #1376 Cato the Elder
Depends.
LOL damn spell check. Depends, indeed.
You know I meant inconvenient.
| 1387 |
CapeCoddah Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:32:36am |
re: #1364 LudwigVanQuixote
Well I'm not interested in sniping at her. But if someone wants to go into the constitution then we can bring up that the right to a speedy trial and to know one's accusers is in there. We can go into the 5th amendment being made specifically to make torture an unviable option in a court of law. We can then go into all of that language about cruel and unusual punishment.
Just to name a few.
Good argument, except for the little fact that THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS HERE!
| 1388 |
FrogMarch Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:33:34am |
re: #1373 Surabaya Stew
A question of appropriate jurisdiction is also a valid argument against trying KSM in a civilian trial; however, Rudy wasn't phrasing his argument in that manner. Nor was he just against it, the man was playing political football against the administration. Which is the wrong thing to do, because there will be a time when Rudy is in the right re: something Obama has done, and nobody will listen because they think he's just playing partisan politics.
Political football. mmmkay. Rudy has an opinion that lines up with many, even some of those on the left. Just because you hate the man, doesn't mean he isn't allowed to give his opinion on this matter. You disagree with him and are attempting to take 1994's general statement and use it against him. Sorry - I don't buy it.
| 1389 |
keithgabryelski Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:34:09am |
re: #1387 CapeCoddah
Good argument, except for the little fact that THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS HERE!
the supreme court disagrees with you.
| 1390 |
FrogMarch Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:35:05am |
re: #1365 LudwigVanQuixote
To deny a fair and speedy and open trial is unamerican.
It won't be speedy.
It will drag on for years...
So what you are saying is that military tribunals are not fair and nice and speedy enough for you.
And that we must be holding all sorts of innocent people. Well fine. Then let us give the so-called innocent people your version of a fair trial in New York – and leave the military tribunal for KSM.
| 1391 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:42:45am |
re: #1388 FrogMarch
Political football. mmmkay. Rudy has an opinion that lines up with many, even some of those on the left. Just because you hate the man, doesn't mean he isn't allowed to give his opinion on this matter. You disagree with him and are attempting to take 1994's general statement and use it against him. Sorry - I don't buy it.
While his opinion (and he's entitled to it) might line up with various Americans across the political spectrum (just as other Americans from across the spectrum reject it), his lack of consistency for a public figure so closely tied to the events of the case is stunning. Nor was I using his 1994 comments, it was his 2006 comments in support of Moussaoui being tried in a civilian court of law that I was using against him. Rudy's approach in this instance is not honest criticism, it's parisian hackery appropriate for a minor domestic policy dispute, not a matter of supreme legal and WOT importance.
| 1392 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:51:39am |
re: #1387 CapeCoddah
Good argument, except for the little fact that THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS HERE!
um, false
| 1393 |
FrogMarch Thu, Nov 19, 2009 8:00:35am |
re: #1391 Surabaya Stew
While his opinion (and he's entitled to it) might line up with various Americans across the political spectrum (just as other Americans from across the spectrum reject it), his lack of consistency for a public figure so closely tied to the events of the case is stunning. Nor was I using his 1994 comments, it was his 2006 comments in support of Moussaoui being tried in a civilian court of law that I was using against him. Rudy's approach in this instance is not honest criticism, it's parisian hackery appropriate for a minor domestic policy dispute, not a matter of supreme legal and WOT importance.
I don't think it's partisan hackery at all. Moussaoui was caught in Minnesota and he wasn't the mastermind behind 9/11.
| 1394 |
Fenway_Nation Thu, Nov 19, 2009 8:03:08am |
re: #1353 LudwigVanQuixote
Cute...never got instructions regarding torture and curisouly, I never got instructions regarding a detainees miranda rights.
So...should I still self-deport to N. Korea?
| 1395 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Nov 19, 2009 8:08:48am |
re: #1393 FrogMarch
I don't think it's partisan hackery at all. Moussaoui was caught in Minnesota and he wasn't the mastermind behind 9/11.
Both arguments are valid and are not partisan hackery. Had Rudy actually made those arguments (and in a fair manner), I would have never said a thing about him.
| 1396 |
SeaMonkey Thu, Nov 19, 2009 8:09:37am |
Sorry I missed this donnybrook yesterday!
It's amazing that any American would defend torture and indefinite detention in an extra-legal institution. There's really not much to say to people who would stick up for that.
| 1397 |
J.S. Thu, Nov 19, 2009 8:12:58am |
re: #1389 keithgabryelski
As I noted in post number 176: "The Supreme Court has ruled (this goes back to 1856), if the accused has been denied Due Process under the US Constitution -- the remedy is Liberty." And, if the detainees are to be given the same Constitutional rights afforded to Americans, then I see no other alternative but to have every one of the alleged terrorists set free.
How can it possibly be otherwise? The Sixth Amendment assures a speedy trial -- it has been violated. The Eighth Amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment -- it has been violated. Not to mention the failure to have attorneys present during interrogations; the failure to have their rights read to them upon detainment; the nullification of the presumption of innocence. Frankly, what civil right has not been grossly violated here?
The list is long. And, again, the only remedy is an immediate dismissal of all charges. I see no other credible alternative. (Unless, of course, Show Trials are US becomes an acceptable new "norm.")
| 1398 |
keithgabryelski Thu, Nov 19, 2009 8:34:49am |
re: #1397 J.S.
As I noted in post number 176: "The Supreme Court has ruled (this goes back to 1856), if the accused has been denied Due Process under the US Constitution -- the remedy is Liberty." And, if the detainees are to be given the same Constitutional rights afforded to Americans, then I see no other alternative but to have every one of the alleged terrorists set free.
The supreme court ruled that they have constitutional rights but they are not exactly the same as the rights afforded citizens. From my recollection, they basically ruled "it's a matter of degrees, they have rights to not be detained but not the three day rule".
It's not obvious to me that detainment by U.S. armed forces starts the clock on "speedy trial".
To round this out: Eric Holder is a smart guy that is sure to be thinking he doesn't want to go down in history as the guy who let KSM go. I'm sure he has done the math on whether a guilty verdict is likely, and sees it as pretty well likely.
This isn't to say this is a show trial, knowing you have a strong case and the confidence of a guilty verdict does not equate to "show trial".
| 1399 |
martinleaf Thu, Nov 19, 2009 8:43:20am |
Many Americans believe Israel is responsible for 9-11. Many Americans do not believe there is "Islamic Terror". A publicized trial might educate those that have not hopelessly lost their minds to the "loony left".
That would be a good thing. So let the Islamic Terrorists rant and rave, let them even be acquitted if the Jury so finds. Someone somewhere will see the truth.
| 1400 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Nov 19, 2009 9:11:51am |
re: #1396 SeaMonkey
Sorry I missed this donnybrook yesterday!
It's amazing that any American would defend torture and indefinite detention in an extra-legal institution. There's really not much to say to people who would stick up for that.
Not much to say to your simplistic slogan driven mindset either.
| 1401 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Nov 19, 2009 9:25:53am |
re: #1382 Cato the Elder
Yep. We did. We offer classes to soldiers in how to withstand torture. One of the techniques we subject them to in those classes is waterboarding. Therefore, by our own admission, waterboarding is torture.
Are you really that stone stupid?
It is not stone stupid to disagree with your pronounced definition of torture. Harsh Interrogation works just as well, if not much better in this context.
| 1402 |
J.S. Thu, Nov 19, 2009 9:42:24am |
re: #1398 keithgabryelski
Well, either the various Amendments to the US Constitution (that's the Fifth, the Sixth, the Eighth, etc.) apply to those accused in a civilian federal court in the United States, or they do not apply. Would you like to see Americans accused of heinous crimes summarily denied their civil and Constitutional rights in this manner?
Again, to gain a conviction in these cases, I see a pressing necessity to adopt a "Show Trials" attitude (and trash the Constitution in the process.)
| 1403 |
Ray in TX Thu, Nov 19, 2009 10:10:33am |
I see this is a show trial to make it clear to the world how completely unhinged from reality terrorists like KSM really are and to reestablish this country's moral authority about following the rule of law.
That said, there is no way in hell KSM is going to walk, torture or no, considering his known involvement. If the previous administration gets any blowback for torturing prisoners, well that's just the bed they made for themselves.
I could envision torture info coming out, but being contrasted to the brutality committed by Islamic terrorists. If a trial for Bush/Cheney ever looks like a reality (which is doesn't), I'd expect a blanket pardon from Obama.
| 1404 |
keithgabryelski Thu, Nov 19, 2009 10:37:45am |
re: #1402 J.S.
I can't tell if your position is basically: we can't convict him under our rules of law so we shouldn't use our rules of law.
In any case: the attorney general, no dummy in law and top of the org chart on these matters, and a constituional professor (whose main gigs these days as POTUS) believe the American People have a good case against KSM.
If this does become a "show trial" (defined as a trial that does not follow the rule of law, yet convicts) or our rights are diminished because of this ruling, I will be out in front of the white house with you protesting.
But, there is ample evidence these guys know what their doing and unless you subscribe to the notion this government is looking to destroy itself and it's principles, they will meet their expected goals.
Your warning is heard, but seems outweighed by their opinion.
| 1405 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Nov 19, 2009 10:43:23am |
re: #1404 keithgabryelski
But, there is ample evidence these guys know what their doing and unless you subscribe to the notion this government is looking to destroy itself and it's principles, they will meet their expected goals.
Your warning is heard, but seems outweighed by their opinion.
It could be that they are doing what they think others expect them to do.
If that is their goal, then it is self fulfilling is it not?
| 1406 |
keithgabryelski Thu, Nov 19, 2009 10:49:55am |
re: #1405 Naso Tang
I don't see any reason to believe that -- how about we reserve judgement until there is evidence.
| 1407 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Nov 19, 2009 11:27:50am |
re: #1406 keithgabryelski
I don't see any reason to believe that -- how about we reserve judgement until there is evidence.
I think there is every reason to think they are playing to an international audience rather than a domestic one. That would seem pretty obvious given that surveys, including the LGF one, suggest 75% of American disagree with this.
Reserve judgement seems to be the name of the game for this administration. Don't you start too.
| 1408 |
Bagua Thu, Nov 19, 2009 12:17:14pm |
re: #1291 LudwigVanQuixote
No Douchebagua. Bullies keep trying to drum up sympathy for their antics when they get a beat down and their other tactics fail.
That would be you.
I'm sorry, but you don't impress me. Your projections don't impress either.
So really go away. If you hate talking to me so much then stop. You said you would. You always say you will. Live up to it. I take no pleasure from constantly having to type why you are stupid and pathetic. I take no pleasure in reading your insipid replies or attempts to piss me off.
I find you reprehensible, idiotic, crass and low brow.
I find you ignorant, foolish and uneducated.I find you a total schmuck.
I detest you.
So really... Piss off like you promised.
Do we really tolerate this level of discourse now on this forum?
| 1409 |
Bagua Thu, Nov 19, 2009 12:35:50pm |
Speaking to theMatrix31 beginning a series of posts calling theMatrix31 stupid.
re: #1275 LudwigVanQuixote
It's true. He is much smarter than you. That's why I despise him more. He should know better. You are stupid enough to almost be innocent.
re: #1286 LudwigVanQuixote
No not really, I've met special needs fourth graders who are more cogent and learned than you. Claiming to be brighter than you is kind of like claiming to have more understanding of Quantum Theory than W. Bush. It's not much of a feat.
re: #1301 LudwigVanQuixote
That's a big word for him... try this... You know that squirrel you flattened on the road and that your buddy skeeter wanted to cook... well even dead and all squished, it was smarter than you.
Amazing. The mask is dropped.
This is a valuable insight into how our bettors, the self described and self regarding academic and social elites view people they believe believe beneath them.
| 1410 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 12:37:47pm |
re: #1409 Bagua
Speaking to theMatrix31 beginning a series of posts calling theMatrix31 stupid.
Amazing. The mask is dropped.
This is a valuable insight into how our bettors, the self described and self regarding academic and social elites view people they believe believe beneath them.
No, it shows the behavior of one person, and by extrapolating from that, you're committing an error.
| 1411 |
J.S. Thu, Nov 19, 2009 12:41:58pm |
re: #1404 keithgabryelski
Yes, I agree we must all simply wait and see what happens with these trials (but I'm not optimistic...) (I recall, many years ago, reading about a certain Show Trial -- the defendant was absolutely confident that he would be found not guilty; he had "the proof"; he had the evidence; he knew he simply couldn't be convicted of the crime for which he was accused...at the end of the proceedings, he was led off to be executed. As a wiki article notes, the purpose of a show trial is not to establish "justice" -- or reassert some principle of justice -- rather they're designed to bring about retributive "justice" against the accused...)
| 1412 |
footballrules Thu, Nov 19, 2009 12:56:43pm |
I can't find anything from Ludwig or Matrix that suggest what either of the two disagree about as far as policy-- at least in relatively recent posts I have looked at here. I don't have the time to go back hundreds of posts and read them all. I wish I could. Could someone summarize in a couple of sentences what these two think? I'll tell everyone who is right! LOL That was a joke. Just curious about this anger on both sides.
| 1413 |
J.S. Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:01:23pm |
re: #1411 J.S.
(the show trial was detailed in Raul Hilberg's volume one -- and dealt with the Katzenberger Trial. Chilling reading, even today...)
| 1414 |
Bagua Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:02:52pm |
re: #1410 obdicut
No, it shows the behavior of one person, and by extrapolating from that, you're committing an error.
I hope you are correct, but I have been seeing more and more anecdotal evidence over the last few years that those who regard themselves as the Cultural/Academic/Political elite do in fact regard the citizens of their countries as ignorant and beneath them.
This is even more evident in the UK and the European nations, where their political betters have pressed on with building an EU superstate while denying their citizens even a referendum on the issue of giving up national sovereignty.
A no vote or lack of interest in a policy favoured by the political elites is not taken as the will of the people, rather, it is termed as the government failing to get the message across, failing to educate the people, and thus they made the wrong vote and that must be corrected.
| 1415 |
J.S. Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:05:29pm |
re: #1412 footballrules
Perhaps it would be therapeutic for Ludwig to summarize Matrix's position (?) and for Matrix to summarize Ludwig's...(?) (on second thought, that's probably a very bad idea...forget that suggestion).
| 1416 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:11:21pm |
re: #1414 Bagua
I hope you are correct, but I have been seeing more and more anecdotal evidence over the last few years that those who regard themselves as the Cultural/Academic/Political elite do in fact regard the citizens of their countries as ignorant and beneath them.
This is even more evident in the UK and the European nations, where their political betters have pressed on with building an EU superstate while denying their citizens even a referendum on the issue of giving up national sovereignty.
A no vote or lack of interest in a policy favoured by the political elites is not taken as the will of the people, rather, it is termed as the government failing to get the message across, failing to educate the people, and thus they made the wrong vote and that must be corrected.
I'm sorry, to me that's a load of talking points.
Both my parents are academics. My mom has worked almost her whole life at Rhode Island College, a relatively dinky place in Rhode Island. Most of her incoming class can't actually construct an English sentence. They lack almost all critical reading and writing skills.
She has taught freshman English every year. She does this out of a desire to help people make something better of themselves, because she believes education is key to that.
Education is key to bettering yourself. It is not elitist to think that, say that, or dedicate your life to it.
Whatever you may think of people like Lacan and Derrida, the majority of 'academics' out there are, at heart 'teachers'. Many sacrifice much for their students.
Remember, please, that most 'academics' are not in some ivory tower with grad students serving them lattes.
| 1417 |
Bagua Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:21:04pm |
re: #1416 obdicut
Yes, I agree in principal, both of our examples are using anecdotal evidence, so neither of us can claim that this is the prevalent majority. I also associate with a large number of people at the advanced post graduate level and most of them are very sensible and reasonable people, though some are arrogant.
I should be clear that I am referring to a sub-set of academics, not those simply interested in their fields, but those who wish to impose their views on the unwashed masses.
This is a much stronger phenomenon in the UK were the disconnect between the politicians and the cultural elite is far more blatant. In the US it is still more egalitarian and populous governors tend to become president.
The US version of the cultural elite is best typified by the NYT and their fellow travelers among politicians and academia. They have nowhere near the extensive influence their counterparts in the UK and "Europe" enjoy.
| 1418 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:25:59pm |
re: #1417 Bagua
Yes, I agree in principal, both of our examples are using anecdotal evidence, so neither of us can claim that this is the prevalent majority. I also associate with a large number of people at the advanced post graduate level and most of them are very sensible and reasonable people, though some are arrogant.
I should be clear that I am referring to a sub-set of academics, not those simply interested in their fields, but those who wish to impose their views on the unwashed masses.
This is a much stronger phenomenon in the UK were the disconnect between the politicians and the cultural elite is far more blatant. In the US it is still more egalitarian and populous governors tend to become president.
The US version of the cultural elite is best typified by the NYT and their fellow travelers among politicians and academia. They have nowhere near the extensive influence their counterparts in the UK and "Europe" enjoy.
Everyone wants to impose their view. It's not exclusive to the intellectual elite in any way.
Using the phrase 'fellow travellers' makes me pretty angry, by the way, since it was used to smear a particularly fine academic at UC Berkeley who refused to sign the idiotic 'loyalty oath' during the Red Scare, and encouraged his students to stand up for their beliefs when others tried to impose their views on them.
A great old man, currently quite ill, but still inspirational:
| 1419 |
keithgabryelski Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:45:46pm |
re: #1407 Naso Tang
I think there is every reason to think they are playing to an international audience rather than a domestic one. That would seem pretty obvious given that surveys, including the LGF one, suggest 75% of American disagree with this.
First, this is Eric Holder's decision, not President Obama's.
There is little advantage for Eric Holder to play games for the international community (and there is little evidence the AG is the pocket of the president).
As far as President Obama is concerned. He is the president of the united states of america which is both an inward facing and an outward facing position. That is, we pay him to be the face of America.
Not that he should weigh international concern over national concern (and I don't think he is) -- In this case, it looks like they are doing an honest job even if it is against the popular vote. A man of convictions maybe?
Reserve judgement seems to be the name of the game for this administration. Don't you start too.
I just don't see it. The man is less than a year in to his presidency doing a job that seems to be at least fine. No one is asking for you to wait 100 years and have the decision on the goodness of President Obama's presidency decided by historians.
I simply meant to say:
1) the decision makers seem educated.
2) this decision seems reasonable.
3) most people's concerns seem to be about whether KSM will be convicted or not, which seems to be a bunch of armchair quarterbacking -- let them do their job.
| 1420 |
J.S. Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:47:48pm |
re: #1396 SeaMonkey
The President of the United States, that's President Obama, has defended indefinite detention. On May 21, 2009, Obama delivered a speech to the National Archives. In this speech Obama discussed the problem of alleged terrorists who can neither be tried (in either a civilian or military tribunal), nor released. Obama proposed "prolonged detention" without trial for certain terrorists and they would be housed in prisons inside the United States.
Here's an article..."President’s Detention Plan Tests American Legal Tradition"
| 1421 |
Bagua Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:48:52pm |
re: #1418 obdicut
You are talking about a few anecdotal examples and only the US and being defensive.
Let's leave at only those who fit the example I cited and leave the larger discussion for later.
| 1422 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:50:36pm |
re: #767 LudwigVanQuixote
The rest of us who believe that America is better than that are really happy to have our country back.
No one took the country away for anyone to "have it back". Inverse kookism.
| 1423 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 2:05:11pm |
re: #1421 Bagua
You are talking about a few anecdotal examples and only the US and being defensive.
Let's leave at only those who fit the example I cited and leave the larger discussion for later.
Wow. Yeah, uh, let's do that.
You do realize the history of the 'fellow travelers' phrase, right, and how it ruined so many people's lives?
| 1424 |
Bagua Thu, Nov 19, 2009 2:15:04pm |
re: #1423 obdicut
Wow. Yeah, uh, let's do that.
You do realize the history of the 'fellow travelers' phrase, right, and how it ruined so many people's lives?
Not really, I mostly use it to include those with extreme leftist/socialist sympathies, those who believe in rule by international elites and NGOs and do not trust the Demos to think for themselves, instead, they must be educated and guided to vote correctly, but if it is emotionally loaded or has been misused then I retract it from my example and will research the term further before using it again.
| 1425 |
J.S. Thu, Nov 19, 2009 2:17:27pm |
re: #1424 Bagua
A "fellow traveller" means you're a Communist (or a sympathizer and, I believe, was used during the McCarthy era.)
| 1426 |
Obdicut Thu, Nov 19, 2009 2:24:59pm |
re: #1425 J.S.
Yep. And was used to smear anyone who didn't go along with the Red Scare, signing loyalty oaths and blackballing others.
As I said, my friend Charles Muscatine refused to sign the loyalty oath, was called a 'fellow traveler', and fired.
From UC Berkeley.
| 1427 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 2:39:02pm |
re: #1341 LudwigVanQuixote
After a fair trial that was open and speedy. They also would not have been tortured.
Would you care to look at how Washington handled John André?
And the ships off the coast that were kept full of prisoners?
| 1428 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 2:40:40pm |
re: #1325 LudwigVanQuixote
Respectfully, we have tried others for harming (or attempting to harm) Americans or American interests before, even if they were foreign nationals or not on American soil at the time of their crimes.
Richard Reid is a good example.
Another example of international law applied in such a case was with the Lockerbie bombers.
He was arrested by law enforcement, not the military, on American soil.
| 1429 |
Bagua Thu, Nov 19, 2009 3:01:31pm |
re: #1426 obdicut
Oh dear, no I wasn't aware of that history and won't be using the term in the future.
| 1430 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 3:17:09pm |
re: #940 SanFranciscoZionist
Why should someone picked up as an enemy combatant on American soil get those civil rights?
Because the Supreme Court says so.
| 1431 |
J.S. Thu, Nov 19, 2009 4:33:04pm |
re: #1430 Sharmuta
I believe SanFrancisco Zionist is wrong -- you're not (as much as I'm aware) able to be "picked up" on United States soil and charges as an "enemy combatant". That's not the way it works. If a person is charged in the U.S. it will be for alleged terrorist activities, etc. (The Judge at Richard Reid's trial stated that He was NOT an enemy combatant, he was a terrorist. You can go look it up, it's on the Internet. Even Snopes has an article about it.)
Where the designation of "enemy combatant" comes from is the Military. What happens, as I've explained above, there's a firefight in Afghanistan, a "fighter" commits a designated war crime and is captured, the person is then alleged to be an enemy combatant, and is sent to Gitmo. Ok? Or CIA Intelligence could get a "tip" (another Intelligence Agency as found info about subject X -- planning or plotting terrorist activities. Again, this person on forreign soil, with a foreign citizenship, can be apprehended -- ie, some say "kidnapped" -- by CIA and then sent to Gitmo. This is the way it works.
Now, once in Gitmo, the "enemy combatant" is entitled to certain "rights." (this has been the contentious issues -- just how many rights is the enemy combatant entitled to?). In 2003 to 2004 there were 3 Supreme Court rulings -- basically, the rulings insisted that detainees (even non-citizen detainees) have the right to a review of their status by an independent adjudicator (as enemy combatants), and they have the right to challenge that designation, etc. (It said nothing about giving "enemy combatants" access to civilian trials in Federal courts.)
| 1432 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 4:43:51pm |
re: #1203 SanFranciscoZionist
Would it KILL people around here to quit with the "liberals are like this or that" crap?
How about if conservatives aren't called un-American or jingos or pathetic or morons or idiots or war criminals?
| 1433 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 4:47:20pm |
re: #1215 SanFranciscoZionist
In other words, yes.
No- it means there's a double standard, and it's not acceptable from either side to paint with broad brushes.
| 1434 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 4:58:00pm |
re: #1300 palomino
Right, let's just ignore the rest of the world. After all, the US has FOUR percent of the world's population and FOUR percent of its land mass! How could it possibly be in our interests to have good relations with other countries?
Sure, the terrorists are scum who don't deserve anything. But one of the many things that makes us better than them is our legal system. Even in a time of crisis--maybe especially then--we insure things like rule of law and due process.
Here's the thing... we're not violating the rule of law with tribunals.
| 1435 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:16:43pm |
re: #1399 martinleaf
Many Americans believe Israel is responsible for 9-11. Many Americans do not believe there is "Islamic Terror". A publicized trial might educate those that have not hopelessly lost their minds to the "loony left".
That would be a good thing. So let the Islamic Terrorists rant and rave, let them even be acquitted if the Jury so finds. Someone somewhere will see the truth.
OMG! You seriously think a trial will stop troofers?
| 1436 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:22:31pm |
re: #1432 Sharmuta
How about if conservatives aren't called un-American or jingos or pathetic or morons or idiots or war criminals?
"people around here" say that?
| 1437 |
Sharmuta Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:31:33pm |
San Fran Z- I want to be really clear here. It seems as though some people think it's immoral and wrong for people on the right to question the patriotism of those on the left, but those lefties feel they are perfectly able to question the patriotism of the right. Hypocritical and both are wrong.
| 1438 |
J.S. Thu, Nov 19, 2009 5:43:48pm |
I found another excellent, excellent website...(legal site, explains everything...Sans any political grandstanding...or overheated rhetorical outbursts...)
| 1439 |
J.S. Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:18:08pm |
CIA's hiring...(two new commercials...) The CIA has also de-classified their Legal Reference Book (explains everything...lol)
| 1440 |
RexMundi Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:47:48pm |
Terror is a war crime. It is not a police/criminal court issue. NO to the trial in New York.
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Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ... Cheechako
4 weeks ago
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