Outrageous Outrage of the Day

The wingnut blogosphere is fuming and hissing with outrage over this story today: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees.

What? They were kicked out of school just for wearing US flag clothing? Outrage!

But as usual with these trumped up nontroversies, there’s a bit more to the story. Is it possible they weren’t just expressing their patriotism, but were in fact using the American flag as a deliberate insult to Hispanic students? Why yes, it is.

On any other day at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Daniel Galli and his four friends would not even be noticed for wearing T-shirts with the American flag. But Cinco de Mayo is not any typical day especially on a campus with a large Mexican American student population.

Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal’s office.

They said we could wear it on any other day,” Daniel Galli said, “but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it’s supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today.”

The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts “incendiary” that would lead to fights on campus.

What school principal wouldn’t have done the same thing? Don’t they have a responsibility to maintain order in school? And if so, isn’t it blindingly obvious that they need to take action when students do things that are designed to create conflict and bad feelings?

How would these bloggers feel if a group of Mexican students came to a school event wearing Mexican flags on July 4th? You can just imagine their overheated reactions. The hypocrisy reeks.

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850 comments

1 Kruk  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:12:31am

You can predict Fox and friends (and I don't mean the show) will be whipping themselves up into a lather about this one.

2 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:13:01am
How would these bloggers feel if a group of Mexican students came to school wearing Mexican flags on July 4th? You can just imagine their overheated reactions. The hypocrisy reeks.

If would be, if it was, but it isn't, yet, so what's the issue. Did some Hispanics wear a Mexican flag on July 4th to school? Who goes to school on July 4th? The make believe outrage and both side, especially the make believe outrage about something that hasn't happend... is outrageous.

3 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:14:34am

re: #2 Walter L. Newton

If would be, if it was, but it isn't, yet, so what's the issue. Did some Hispanics wear a Mexican flag on July 4th to school? Who goes to school on July 4th? The make believe outrage and both side, especially the make believe outrage about something that hasn't happend... is outrageous.

I'd respond, but I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

4 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:14:56am

To quote our President: "I think the school acted stupidly."

5 Renaissance_Man  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:15:55am

I'm more annoyed that this is a story. It stinks of a whole lot of nothing blown up into something to get a story out there in the current nationalistic controversy.

Like I said, it sounds like a couple of ethnic groups at school jawing at each other with some nationalistic undertones, someone gets sent home, and then their martyr cookie parents (I like that term, Slap) get in on the act. A whole lot of nothing, suddenly an outrage.

6 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:16:01am

re: #3 Charles

I'd respond, but I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

I understand.

7 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:16:41am

I disagree, Charles. If they have the right to wear it on any other day then they should have the right to wear it on May 5th. Their intentions are irrelevant to me.

I might despise the WBC for every time they've picketed a soldier's funeral, but no one's been able to stop them in the courts.

8 Lidane  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:17:09am

One minor quibble, Charles -- Cinco de Mayo isn't the same thing as Mexican Independence Day. In fact, in Mexico it's barely celebrated at all:

Cinco de Mayo (Spanish for "fifth of May") is a holiday held on May 5 that commemorates the Mexican army's unlikely victory over French forces at the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862, under the leadership of General Ignacio Zaragoza Seguín. It is celebrated primarily in the state of Puebla and in the United States. While Cinco de Mayo sees limited significance and celebration nationwide in Mexico, the date is observed nationwide in the United States and other locations around the world as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride. Cinco de Mayo is not Mexico's Independence Day, the most important national patriotic holiday in Mexico.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Mexico's Independence Day is on September 16th.

9 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:17:30am

Something tells me wearing a Union Jack T-shirts on March 17th might get you a bit more than pinched in some places....

10 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:17:48am

Telling a kid in the US that they can't wear a shirt with a US flag on it is idiotic.

11 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:17:57am

Meh.
No outrage either way....except outrage that there is outrage.
Maybe the outrage should be over the use of the flag as bandannas or the fact that dudes still wear bandannas.

It is not like they wore a Union Jack T-shirt in a Irish pup on St. Patrick's Day...that's just looking to get punched on your gob.

12 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:18:03am

re: #8 Lidane

Man, the French just can't catch a break.
/

13 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:18:05am

I'd be curious to know if any of the hispanic students told the administration they were upset by kids wearing US flags. My bet is not. The administration just wanted to bend over backwards to ensure no one was insulted. Typical school administrator hyperventilation.

14 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:18:08am

re: #5 Renaissance_Man

I'm more annoyed that this is a story. It stinks of a whole lot of nothing blown up into something to get a story out there in the current nationalistic controversy.

Like I said, it sounds like a couple of ethnic groups at school jawing at each other with some nationalistic undertones, someone gets sent home, and then their martyr cookie parents (I like that term, Slap) get in on the act. A whole lot of nothing, suddenly an outrage.

Especially the outrage at those Hispanics wearing the Mexican flag to school on July 4th... oh wait... that didn't happen... did it?

15 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:18:37am

re: #4 rwdflynavy

re: #10 cliffster

i never thought I'd see the day I agreed with you two. And I think I'm on the same side as Walter but can't really tell...

16 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:18:48am

re: #11 webevintage

Meh.
No outrage either way...except outrage that there is outrage.
Maybe the outrage should be over the use of the flag as bandannas or the fact that dudes still wear bandannas.

It is not like they wore a Union Jack T-shirt in a Irish pup on St. Patrick's Day...that's just looking to get punched on your gob.

GTMA!

17 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:18:58am

That's in your gob...not "on".....
More hot tea needed this morning.

18 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:19:30am

re: #15 JasonA

re: #10 cliffster

i never thought I'd see the day I agreed with you two. And I think I'm on the same side as Walter but can't really tell...

Resistance is futile!!! We are Borg!
//

19 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:19:33am

re: #16 jamesfirecat

GTMA!

I mean, GMTA!

Great Minds have no need for your "proper spelling!"

20 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:19:35am

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

Especially the outrage at those Hispanics wearing the Mexican flag to school on July 4th... oh wait... that didn't happen... did it?

Are you really incapable of understanding the concept of a thought experiment, Walter?

Did you honestly think I suggested that event happened? You're normally pedantic, but this time you're taking it to an absurd extreme.

21 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:19:44am

re: #16 jamesfirecat

GTMA!

HA!

22 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:20:36am

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

Especially the outrage at those Hispanics wearing the Mexican flag to school on July 4th... oh wait... that didn't happen... did it?

Walter, I see what you're trying to do here...but baiting Charles isn't exactly the smartest tack a person could take. Yes, July 4th is a holiday (it is my Irish-born mother's birthday, after all), but the point wasn't that this would happen, but that the same people outraged over the students being asked to turn their t-shirts inside out would be outraged over the display of another nation's flag on the 4th of July.

23 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:20:45am

re: #20 Charles

Are you really incapable of understanding the concept of a thought experiment, Walter?

Did you honestly think I suggested that event happened? You're normally pedantic, but this time you're taking it to an absurd extreme.

Thought by association?

24 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:21:22am

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Thought by association?

Oh, I get it - you're just being a jerk.

25 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:21:23am

re: #22 darthstar

Walter, I see what you're trying to do here...but baiting Charles isn't exactly the smartest tack a person could take. Yes, July 4th is a holiday (it is my Irish-born mother's birthday, after all), but the point wasn't that this would happen, but that the same people outraged over the students being asked to turn their t-shirts inside out would be outraged over the display of another nation's flag on the 4th of July.

I'm not baiting anyone, it's called commenting, debating, stating an opinion. We all play the same.

26 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:21:47am

re: #20 Charles

Did you honestly think I suggested that event happened? You're normally pedantic, but this time you're taking it to an absurd extreme.

I think this is well within Walter's norm.

Seriously though, they were told they couldn't wear the shirts because, what, they were afraid that some violence might break out because they wore American flag T-shirts in an American school?

27 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:22:26am

re: #22 darthstar

Walter, I see what you're trying to do here...but baiting Charles isn't exactly the smartest tack a person could take. Yes, July 4th is a holiday (it is my Irish-born mother's birthday, after all), but the point wasn't that this would happen, but that the same people outraged over the students being asked to turn their t-shirts inside out would be outraged over the display of another nation's flag on the 4th of July.

The difference is that this is the US. Wearing a US flag in the US on the day another country celebrates a holiday isn't exactly the same thing.

28 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:22:28am

re: #13 rwdflynavy

I'd be curious to know if any of the hispanic students told the administration they were upset by kids wearing US flags. My bet is not. The administration just wanted to bend over backwards to ensure no one was insulted. Typical school administrator hyperventilation.

I'd like to know the actual rights of students in a case like this since they do not enjoy the same rights on school property as they would if not on school property.
BUT I think a district here in Arkansas got smacked down by the US Supreme Court within the last year over limiting what kind of T-shirts student could wear?

29 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:22:38am

re: #20 Charles

Are you really incapable of understanding the concept of a thought experiment, Walter?

Did you honestly think I suggested that event happened? You're normally pedantic, but this time you're taking it to an absurd extreme.

You left out of the thought experiment the outrage that would happen if the kids were sent home for wearing a Mexican flag.

30 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:22:43am

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

I'm not baiting anyone, it's called commenting, debating, stating an opinion. We all play the same.

No, you're being a dick. Enjoy the ride while it lasts.

31 Macha  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:23:01am

It obviously was pure provocation and not much else. I don't blame the principal for taking control of the situation. He has a responsibility to put out the brush fires before they begin. On the other hand, I would hope he is applying the rules across the board and not allowing the Hispanic students to display a form of provocation of their own. As to the 4th of July, I lived in a city for years where the Mexican flag was flown all over the place on the 4th mixed right in with the American flag. No one paid much attention to it, nor can I recall anyone being offended. I can't recall any altercations of any kind occurring. But of course it wasn't happening on a school campus. Kids are reflecting the attitudes of their parents and it is dynamite waiting for a spark.

32 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:23:19am

re: #30 darthstar

No, you're being a dick. Enjoy the ride while it lasts.

Noted.

33 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:23:42am

re: #13 rwdflynavy

I'd be curious to know if any of the hispanic students told the administration they were upset by kids wearing US flags. My bet is not. The administration just wanted to bend over backwards to ensure no one was insulted. Typical school administrator hyperventilation.

Meh... I expect schools to behave like that. I mean better the entire shirt turning inside out thing or getting sent home, yes its an over reaction, but I'd rather an over reaction then somebody getting seriously hurt.

Can you image the outrageous outrage that would happen if any of these children had been harmed because of the fact that they were wearing July 4th T-shirts? Not that the blame wouldn't fully lay with the attacker for having no self control, but imagine that video of the white kid getting beaten up by the black kid on the bus times 1000....

34 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:23:43am
Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out.

Brunch break? Do they get Second Breakfast and Elevensies too?

35 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:23:52am

re: #28 webevintage

I'd like to know the actual rights of students in a case like this since they do not enjoy the same rights on school property as they would if not on school property.
BUT I think a district here in Arkansas got smacked down by the US Supreme Court within the last year over limiting what kind of T-shirts student could wear?

It is one thing to limit gang colors, pornographic content etc, but I have a hard time believing some judge is going to say kids can't wear the US flag to school cause it might upset folks from another country.

36 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:24:18am

re: #34 wrenchwench

Brunch break? Do they get Second Breakfast and Elevensies too?

Thanks for making me hungry!!!

37 Kruk  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:25:12am

re: #29 cliffster

You left out of the thought experiment the outrage that would happen if the kids were sent home for wearing a Mexican flag.

What about when someone flies a Mexican flag above a US Flag?

[Link: crooksandliars.com...]

38 Ericus58  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:25:12am

People can be allowed to burn the US flag as a protected freedom of speech issue... check. ( Don't condone the behavior myself, but that's their right)

Wearing flag apparel to a public school in the US... denied.

Something wrong here.....

39 tigger2005  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:25:20am

Personally, Charles, I think the principal overreacted. Were the Mexican-American students bothered by the students wearing the American flag clothing? And if so, why exactly should they have been? Was the principal certain that the flag-wearing was done in an effort to provoke the Mexican-American students? Did the Mexican-American students even care that it was Cinco de Mayo? As noted above, this isn't exactly a sacred holiday that arouses passions in the majority of Mexicans.

The principal would have done much better to turn this incident into an educational opportunity and a lesson in tolerance. His handling of it seems rather heavy-handed to me.

40 Lidane  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:25:35am

re: #9 jamesfirecat

Something tells me wearing a Union Jack T-shirts on March 17th might get you a bit more than pinched in some places...

So does asking for a Black & Tan in Ireland. At least from what I've been told.

41 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:25:41am

I saw this outrageous outrage story posted in Little Green Linkage by someone here at LGF. I knew without even clicking the link...what the real motive was for wearing the shirts.

42 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:25:59am

I listened to the news report. Some of the mexican-american students did complain about the shirts. However some of the "white kids" wearing them were, in fact, half-mexican. The outrage is manufactured and by the end of the day the principal apologized and retracted the decision (although by then school was out).

This is one of those eye-rollers for me. I am pretty sensitive to others especially when it comes to race but Cinco de Mayo is not some widely celebrated holiday except here in the states. So they wore american flag apparrel BFD!

43 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:26:11am

re: #34 wrenchwench

Brunch break? Do they get Second Breakfast and Elevensies too?

Marge I've invented a meal between breakfast and brunch!

44 Renaissance_Man  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:26:12am

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

Especially the outrage at those Hispanics wearing the Mexican flag to school on July 4th... oh wait... that didn't happen... did it?

Your outrage at your imagined hypocritical counter-outrage with regards to a hypothetical event that would counterpoint this nontroversial outrageous outrage is noted.

45 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:26:19am

School officials have a responsibility to keep the kids under their care safe.

This really is not a difficult concept. The students wearing the flag intended to provoke Mexican students. School officials acted to prevent this, before it got out of hand. End of story. Put the outrage away.

46 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:26:29am

re: #40 Lidane

So does asking for a Black & Tan in Ireland. At least from what I've been told.

What would happen if you ordered an Irish Car Bomb in a pub?

47 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:26:41am

re: #34 wrenchwench

Upding for reference to Hobbits.

48 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:26:49am

Like any red blooded American, I think Cinco De Mayo is a good day to kick back, drink tequila and Mexican beer while eating tacos and listening to Mariachi music. I'd vote this as more nontroversy than OOTD, but I'm betting Fox tries to take it to that level.

49 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:27:11am

re: #35 rwdflynavy

It is one thing to limit gang colors, pornographic content etc, but I have a hard time believing some judge is going to say kids can't wear the US flag to school cause it might upset folks from another country.

I agree, I wish I could remember what district it was here that got in trouble for limiting what students were wearing.
Maybe it was black arm bands?
Arrrrgggghhhh it is on the tip of my brain.
(I can remember it because hubby and I had a conversation about small school districts doing stupid shit that they know is an infringement on students rights that they will then have to defend in court and lose and have to spend shit loads of cash in fees and lawsuit payments.)

50 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:27:29am

Would this compare to the American flag being flown upside down
and below the Mexican flag?
Happened in Calif....At a high school....and they think these boys actions were "incendiary"!
I call BULLSHIT!

51 Ming  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:27:38am

I almost always agree with Charles, but I must disagree with him on this one. I believe the ideal is inclusiveness; students should be able to display Mexican flags, and students should be able to display American flags, both on May 5 and on July 4. Why would anyone feel bad to see both flags displayed on May 5? Why would anyone feel bad to see both flags displayed on July 4th? We should encourage tolerance: for all flags, 365 days a year. This would have been a great lesson for those high school students: tolerance all the time.

52 Lidane  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:27:39am

re: #46 Mad Al-Jaffee

What would happen if you ordered an Irish Car Bomb in a pub?

They'd wonder why you were using perfectly good Guinness as a base for a shooter when you could just enjoy it on its own.

Well, that's what I'd wonder anyway. Heh.

53 badger1970  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:27:40am

Why does this remind me of a "Barney Miller" episode where a protester was brought it and had an American flag patch sewn on the pockets of his jeans? One of the detectives wouldn't let him sit down.

The administration was trying to head off a potential confrontation, wrongly may I add but as stated above, Cinco de Mayo isn't really a big deal in Mexico. I just thought 5/5 was just a holiday for Coors beer.

Maybe the thought experiment should include March 2nd (in Texas).

54 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:28:11am

re: #34 wrenchwench

Brunch break? Do they get Second Breakfast and Elevensies too?

Those tricksy hobbits...

55 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:28:14am

re: #37 Kruk

Exactly what I was refering too!
Thanks...GMTA!

56 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:28:19am

re: #53 badger1970

Why does this remind me of a "Barney Miller" episode where a protester was brought it and had an American flag patch sewn on the pockets of his jeans? One of the detectives wouldn't let him sit down.

The administration was trying to head off a potential confrontation, wrongly may I add but as stated above, Cinco de Mayo isn't really a big deal in Mexico. I just thought 5/5 was just a holiday for Coors beer.

Maybe the thought experiment should include March 2nd (in Texas).

I remember that...Wojohowitz was the cop who wouldn't let him sit down.

57 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:28:34am

re: #45 Charles

School officials have a responsibility to keep the kids under their care safe.

This really is not a difficult concept. The students wearing the flag intended to provoke Mexican students. School officials acted to prevent this, before it got out of hand. End of story. Put the outrage away.


I just reread the article and missed the part where the students said they wore the flag to provoke Mexican students.

58 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:29:11am

Honestly, if an American flag t-shirt is enough to incite those kids to violence then they have bigger problems.

59 sngnsgt  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:29:45am

Is wearing an American flag shirt considered flag desecration? Just asking.

60 Renaissance_Man  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:29:59am
Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal’s office.

Bollocks. I very much doubt they were just sitting there innocently, and an evil PC liberal teacher came up out of the blue. Seriously now. Who's gullible enough to believe a story like that out of a highschooler, except apparently an uncritical reporter? 'Honest, I was just sitting there, and suddenly I got in trouble for no reason!'

That's not to say that they were necessarily being provocative, either. It sounds like two ethnic groups of high school kids getting into some nationalistic playground pissing match, and a teacher picked someone, possibly the wrong group, to end the situation. That's it. End of event. Further discussion of anyone's rights and national pride being violated completely unnecessary.

61 Digital Display  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:30:00am

re: #26 JasonA

I think this is well within Walter's norm.

Seriously though, they were told they couldn't wear the shirts because, what, they were afraid that some violence might break out because they wore American flag T-shirts in an American school?

No..As a Californian Native..We really celebrate May 5th with our friends from Mexico.. It's like St. Pat's day for the Irish...We celebrate with them and join in cheer and understanding and *gasp* Brotherhood...
Why not wear a American flag and a Mexican flag on May the 5th?
Why draw a line when we can come together for one fucking day?
I'm so sick of bigoted views these days...

62 Macha  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:30:02am

re: #58 JasonA

Honestly, if an American flag t-shirt is enough to incite those kids to violence then they have bigger problems.

In some places, just looking at someone is enough.

63 acacia  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:30:03am

I understand the point Charles is trying to make but that means that we've come to a point where the American flag is an incendiary symbol in our own country. That should never be the case no what the circumstances.

64 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:30:26am

re: #42 Dreggas

I don't suppose you have a link to that source? It was a radio news report?

65 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:30:30am

re: #57 rwdflynavy

I just reread the article and missed the part where the students said they wore the flag to provoke Mexican students.

Really? So you think it was completely innocent?

Ohhkay.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:30:48am

re: #13 rwdflynavy

I'd be curious to know if any of the hispanic students told the administration they were upset by kids wearing US flags. My bet is not. The administration just wanted to bend over backwards to ensure no one was insulted. Typical school administrator hyperventilation.

My hunch is that some kids started talking big, and the administrators thought they were heading off a fight.

67 Barking Pumpkin  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:31:01am

Since when is Cinco de Mayo a holiday celebrated in the US other than as an excuse to drink? How can wearing a shirt with an American flag on it be an insult to Hispanic students if they too are Americans? Sorry, but IMHO, the school officials blew it and I hope the affected student's parents sue the school board on a freedom of speech issue. They will win.

68 Locker  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:31:08am

re: #7 JasonA

I disagree, Charles. If they have the right to wear it on any other day then they should have the right to wear it on May 5th. Their intentions are irrelevant to me.

I might despise the WBC for every time they've picketed a soldier's funeral, but no one's been able to stop them in the courts.

I don't know man we are talking about school here and we've seen over and over that the school is allowed to have dress codes, control behavior, etc. As an example someone might be able to wear a Zoro outfit during the Halloween dance but would be sent home if they wore it every day.

Basically I'm saying that you don't have a "right" to wear any specific thing at school.

69 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:31:24am

re: #59 sngnsgt

If it made out of a flag...Yes!
Red White and Blue w/Statrs...No

70 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:31:27am

re: #63 acacia

I understand the point Charles is trying to make but that means that we've come to a point where the American flag is an incendiary symbol in our own country. That should never be the case no what the circumstances.

Well now we know how the British feel on March 17th....

71 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:31:54am

re: #45 Charles

That may be true, but the District's School Board didn't agree with the principal's decision as per the linked article:

The five boys and their families met with a Morgan Hill Unified School District official Wednesday night. The district and the school dp not see eye-to-eye on the incident and released the following statement:

The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions.

The boys will not be suspended and were allowed to return to school Thursday. We spotted one of them when he got to campus -- and, yes, he was sporting an American flag T-shirt.

72 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:32:19am

re: #65 Charles

Really? So you think it was completely innocent?

Ohhkay.

I guess I can't see what evil lurks in the hearts of men...

73 Lidane  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:32:33am

re: #58 JasonA

Honestly, if an American flag t-shirt is enough to incite those kids to violence then they have bigger problems.

Just wearing the shirts? Probably not enough to provoke anything but people rolling their eyes.

On the other hand, if the kids wearing the American flag shirts were acting like obnoxious douchebags because of the flag on their shirts and were using the flags as a way to taunt the Mexican-American kids, then I could see why tensions would rise and why the administration intervened.

74 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:32:47am

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

My hunch is that some kids started talking big, and the administrators thought they were heading off a fight.

I was about to say this. Get out of my head.

75 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:32:53am

re: #61 HoosierHoops

No..As a Californian Native..We really celebrate May 5th with our friends from Mexico.. It's like St. Pat's day for the Irish...We celebrate with them and join in cheer and understanding and *gasp* Brotherhood...
Why not wear a American flag and a Mexican flag on May the 5th?
Why draw a line when we can come together for one fucking day?
I'm so sick of bigoted views these days...

Wait, you're not saying I have bigoted views, are you?

76 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:32:56am

re: #13 rwdflynavy

I'd be curious to know if any of the hispanic students told the administration they were upset by kids wearing US flags. My bet is not. The administration just wanted to bend over backwards to ensure no one was insulted. Typical school administrator hyperventilation.

Quote:

To many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday.

"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

As for an apology, the boys and their families say, 'fat chance.'

77 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:33:28am

re: #58 JasonA

Honestly, if an American flag t-shirt is enough to incite those kids to violence then they have bigger problems.

The kids wearing the American flag shirts were just acting like their parents(just without the Obama=Hitler signs). It wasn't about American pride, it was an 'in your face' attempt at insulting the hispanic students. Sure, the admin could have handled the situation better, but this is good for a week's worth of outrage on Fox, and then it'll blow over. The four kids will probably get to enjoy being called teabaggers by their friends for a few weeks longer.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:34:04am

re: #28 webevintage

I'd like to know the actual rights of students in a case like this since they do not enjoy the same rights on school property as they would if not on school property.
BUT I think a district here in Arkansas got smacked down by the US Supreme Court within the last year over limiting what kind of T-shirts student could wear?

It's variable. The school would certainly be able to insist that no t-shirts with national symbolism be worn, but they'd have to make it part of the school dress code.

79 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:34:06am

re: #71 lawhawk

That may be true, but the District's School Board didn't agree with the principal's decision as per the linked article:

I know that, but it doesn't change anything about the incident. It does point out what a rotten job it is to be a high school principal, though.

80 schlagerman  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:34:15am

Charles, I have to completely disagree with you. This may me a Mexican holiday, but the school is not in Mexico. Where are we as a society when students are told they can wear shirts with American flags only on certain days? Are we that PC? Cinco de Mayo is a Mexican heritage day, and it should be celebrated and those of Mexican descent should be proud. That being said, when we get to the point where we're telling American students that they cannot wear shirts with American flags to an American school on a given day, we've got problems.

81 Digital Display  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:34:29am

re: #75 JasonA

Wait, you're not saying I have bigoted views, are you?

No No No...Sorry.. It was the hoopsters little rant

82 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:34:46am
"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

Here's the real Outrageous Outrage of the day imho.

83 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:34:57am

re: #76 Charles

"As for an apology, the boys and their families say, 'fat chance."

See now that's the kind of Douchbaggery that no nation on earth can possibly do better than America!

England f***ed up about half the world with their colonialism but they were polite about it, not the good US of A!

84 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:35:20am

General consensus...

The American Flag wins.

85 Locker  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:35:28am

re: #77 darthstar

The kids wearing the American flag shirts were just acting like their parents(just without the Obama=Hitler signs). It wasn't about American pride, it was an 'in your face' attempt at insulting the hispanic students. Sure, the admin could have handled the situation better, but this is good for a week's worth of outrage on Fox, and then it'll blow over. The four kids will probably get to enjoy being called teabaggers by their friends for a few weeks longer.

Well I'm not saying I know for sure this was a "bird flip" but it sure seems like it is one. It doesn't seem like these guys all wore American flag T-shirts and bandanas by chance. This is a constant technique called "plausible deniability".

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, I'm just supporting my American heritage. GOSH!

86 badger1970  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:35:33am

If a flag on a t-shirt alone can provoke an incident, what does it say about the students that complained?

87 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:36:08am

re: #77 darthstar

The kids wearing the American flag shirts were just acting like their parents(just without the Obama=Hitler signs). It wasn't about American pride, it was an 'in your face' attempt at insulting the hispanic students. Sure, the admin could have handled the situation better, but this is good for a week's worth of outrage on Fox, and then it'll blow over. The four kids will probably get to enjoy being called teabaggers by their friends for a few weeks longer.


Maybe I'm compartmentalizing too much. If these kids are that douchy then they'll be that way with or without American flag T-shirts. And no, that's not okay. Should I not be separating conduct and wardrobe?

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:36:11am

re: #37 Kruk

What about when someone flies a Mexican flag above a US Flag?

[Link: crooksandliars.com...]

Improper flag protocol. We went through this at a school I worked at with only one flagpole.

89 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:36:11am

re: #86 badger1970

If a flag on a t-shirt alone can provoke an incident, what does it say about the students that complained?

They love the feeling of outrageous outrage and butthurt.

90 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:36:22am

re: #84 Walter L. Newton

General consensus...

The American Flag wins.

My own consensus: Walter's being a monumental jerk today.

91 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:36:26am

re: #76 Charles

And all hell would have broken loose if the Mexican-American students wore Mexican shirts on the Fourth of July.

92 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:36:31am

Cinco de Mayo is an embarassing Day!!

...If your French!

93 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:36:41am

re: #73 Lidane


On the other hand, if the kids wearing the American flag shirts were acting like obnoxious douchebags because of the flag on their shirts and were using the flags as a way to taunt the Mexican-American kids, then I could see why tensions would rise and why the administration intervened.

Of course the kids wearing the American flag shirts could be well known douchebags who have douchebag parents (I mean we all knew kids like that in school) that have a habit of doing shit like this so the Principle knew what was coming.
(I'm still not outraged either way.)

94 Locker  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:36:57am

re: #80 schlagerman

Charles, I have to completely disagree with you. This may me a Mexican holiday, but the school is not in Mexico. Where are we as a society when students are told they can wear shirts with American flags only on certain days? Are we that PC? Cinco de Mayo is a Mexican heritage day, and it should be celebrated and those of Mexican descent should be proud. That being said, when we get to the point where we're telling American students that they cannot wear shirts with American flags to an American school on a given day, we've got problems.

Then we've already got problems. It's called a "dress code". Maybe you've heard of it. Completely legal btw.

95 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:37:05am

re: #80 schlagerman

I don't think it's irrelevant that the land the school is on was Mexico for a brief time, and New Spain before that.

96 Kruk  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:37:16am

re: #55 reloadingisnotahobby

Exactly what I was refering too!
Thanks...GMTA!

Heh. I don't think we do, actually. What I was referring to was that a mistake on the part of this business owner (flying the Mexican flag above the US one) lead to an attack on his property, with Fox News and Co cheering the attackers on. It did in fact generate considerable outrage because the person felt that the flag had been disrespected, similar to the example Charles gave of Mexican kids wearing their flag on the 4th of July.

97 Girth  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:37:22am

Overreaction from the school administration? Most likely.

Were the kids wearing those shirts just to be douchebags to hispanic kids? Most assuredly.

98 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:37:50am

I'm guessing that there's more to this story than what we see in the paper, regardless I still consider the principle wrong. I have zero problem with Mexican Americans celebrating their heritage on Cinco de Mayo (more Americans celebrate that holiday than Mexicans do anyway...) but trying to supress freedom of expression is almost always wrong (except in that "fire in a theater" circumstance etc,)

99 badger1970  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:38:08am

re: #82 rwdflynavy

Here's the real Outrageous Outrage of the day imho.

If they knew Texas history, they would have substituted July 4th for March 2nd.

100 avanti  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:38:41am

re: #13 rwdflynavy

I'd be curious to know if any of the hispanic students told the administration they were upset by kids wearing US flags. My bet is not. The administration just wanted to bend over backwards to ensure no one was insulted. Typical school administrator hyperventilation.

Actually, there were complaints about the bandannas and shirts. The school was 40% Hispanic, and the kids parents apparently encouraged the kids to wear the gear.
The local district thought the school principle over reacted to defuse a possible confrontation. BTW, many Mexican students were displaying the flags and colors on what they perceived as "their" day.

""The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions," said Dr. Jay Totter of the district.

By sundown, the district met with all the students and parents, and they all got good news. The t-shirts can stay. "

shirts.

101 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:38:47am

I wonder if the ACLU will get involved.

102 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:38:51am

re: #87 JasonA

Agreed...the kids are probably assholes a lot of the time and were just banding together to be 'cool' and see if they could get a reaction...they did. Now they can feign ignorance (they are kids, after all) and they'll get to go on Fox and talk about being an oppressed white majority.

103 Locker  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:39:19am

re: #98 Thanos

I'm guessing that there's more to this story than what we see in the paper, regardless I still consider the principle wrong. I have zero problem with Mexican Americans celebrating their heritage on Cinco de Mayo (more Americans celebrate that holiday than Mexicans do anyway...) but trying to supress freedom of expression is almost always wrong (except in that "fire in a theater" circumstance etc,)

Schools suppress freedom of expression all the time with regard to safety, positive educational environment, etc. School and work are not places where your freedom of expression takes a priority.

104 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:39:39am

re: #96 Kruk

I thought you linked to the Palo Alto School incident...
My bad...I'll go look for it!

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:39:40am

re: #50 reloadingisnotahobby

Would this compare to the American flag being flown upside down
and below the Mexican flag?
Happened in Calif...At a high school...and they think these boys actions were "incendiary"!
I call BULLSHIT!

Where did that happen?

106 acacia  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:39:47am

re: #82 rwdflynavy

If she means that she doesn't view the Fourth of July as her holiday as an American then that truly is outrageous.

107 duck of peace  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:39:54am

I think its a tough spot for the school to be in. On the one hand you obviously got a couple of idiot asshats trying to provoke the other students. On the other hand, wearing an American flag themed t-shirt shouldn't be provoking to students. The very idea that its ok to wear it on every other day of the year kind of begs the question as to exactly why its such a taboo on Cinco de Mayo.

Unfortunately, the school was probably in the right on this one. It does point out the confusion though that many suffer mixing up patriotism and nationality with ethnic heritage. You CAN be a proud American and still wave a Mexican flag, if that flag represents your love of the heritage it represents and not your allegiance to another country.

108 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:39:56am

A long time ago, in Britain, the Union Jack was appropriated by racists and neoNazis. The usage of it was often as a provocation, most especially against Pakistani, Sikh, Indian, and Carribean immigrants. "There ain't no black in the Union Jack" was something skinhead thugs chanted in the streets.

Because the flag represents so much to us in the United States, because it is something that we do, indeed, rally around, it is a symbol with quite a bit of power. I feel speech in school is a tricky-ass issue, but I feel that any sort of common decency says that the usage of the American flag on Cinco De Mayo by a group of individuals is meant, clearly, as an insult, a provocation, or a foolish, foolish defense of their perception of America.

109 oklahoma  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:40:04am

Would seem to me to be the right of an American to display their flag, in their country, on whatever day they choose.

110 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:40:09am

re: #77 darthstar

The kids wearing the American flag shirts were just acting like their parents(just without the Obama=Hitler signs). It wasn't about American pride, it was an 'in your face' attempt at insulting the hispanic students. Sure, the admin could have handled the situation better, but this is good for a week's worth of outrage on Fox, and then it'll blow over. The four kids will probably get to enjoy being called teabaggers by their friends for a few weeks longer.

Indeed, dancing in the gym at 3:15!

111 Vambo  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:40:14am

O/T but pretty amazin'

112 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:40:46am

Now why would a group of teenage boys pick May 5 to show up all decked out in red white and blue bandannas and flag tees and such? Surely not to provoke an incident or anything. Teenage boys would never do that. And if they did, isn't this their right as good American kids?

Bully for the principal.

113 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:41:05am

re: #106 acacia

If she means that she doesn't view the Fourth of July as her holiday as an American then that truly is outrageous.

Yeah how dare she not love the 4th of July!

114 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:41:12am

re: #55 reloadingisnotahobby

Exactly what I was refering too!
Thanks...GMTA!


No, it isn't.

115 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:41:35am

re: #98 Thanos

I'm guessing that there's more to this story than what we see in the paper, regardless I still consider the principle wrong. I have zero problem with Mexican Americans celebrating their heritage on Cinco de Mayo (more Americans celebrate that holiday than Mexicans do anyway...) but trying to supress freedom of expression is almost always wrong (except in that "fire in a theater" circumstance etc,)

As far as I know, students' rights to freedom of expression are already limited in a school situation. Dress codes are perfectly legal, for example. And the officials made it very clear to these kids that they were free to wear these clothes any other day. I'm just not seeing a freedom of expression issue.

If this situation had resulted in a fight, and injured kids, the school administrators would have been on the hook for not acting to stop it when they saw it coming. They acted, and it was the responsible thing to do.

116 Locker  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:42:04am

This is like arguing the whole "don't mirandize America citizens issue. Why do we mirandize American citizens, because it's the law, even if you don't like it. Why do principals control dress codes and send apparent troublemakers home to change? Because that's what they do, even if you don't like it. Even if it's the AMERICAN FLAG FUCK YEA!

117 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:42:07am

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

Especially the outrage at those Hispanics wearing the Mexican flag to school on July 4th... oh wait... that didn't happen... did it?

School is not in session on July 4th. Even summer school would give students the day off.

118 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:42:11am

Sticks and stones will break my bones,
But words will never hurt me.

But flags will!

119 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:42:33am

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

Palo Alto Ca...
I'm looking for it...
Hope it was correct..er ...not correct.
Really pissed off alot of people.

120 SpaceJesus  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:42:36am

yeah, this is pretty dumb on the school's part.

if the kids were wearing "go back to mexico, wetbacks" shirts, then i could see the school telling the kids to take that shit off. not so much here though.

121 Macha  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:42:39am

re: #77 darthstar

The kids wearing the American flag shirts were just acting like their parents(just without the Obama=Hitler signs). It wasn't about American pride, it was an 'in your face' attempt at insulting the hispanic students. Sure, the admin could have handled the situation better, but this is good for a week's worth of outrage on Fox, and then it'll blow over. The four kids will probably get to enjoy being called teabaggers by their friends for a few weeks longer.

IMO this is exactly what was going on. The media has stirred this pot for some time, Arizona being the most recent. As Hoops said, we used to celebrate Cinco de Mayo with our friends and both flags were flown, on this day, the 4th of July and Mexican Independence day in Sept. There may have been a better way to resolve it, but I'm a bit disappointed that the board didn't back up the principal a bit more. It just gives the local T-baggers some celebrity and reinforces their racist attitudes. I'll bet those kids hadn't worn those shirts to school until May 5.

122 Kruk  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:42:57am

re: #102 darthstar

Agreed...the kids are probably assholes a lot of the time and were just banding together to be 'cool' and see if they could get a reaction...they did. Now they can feign ignorance (they are kids, after all) and they'll get to go on Fox and talk about being an oppressed white majority.

Heh. I've met a few of those types. You can almost see the hurt bewilderment radiating off them because they no longer have the unearned privilege they used to take for granted.

123 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:42:59am

re: #102 darthstar

Agreed...the kids are probably assholes a lot of the time and were just banding together to be 'cool' and see if they could get a reaction...they did. Now they can feign ignorance (they are kids, after all) and they'll get to go on Fox and talk about being an oppressed white majority.

Yeah, there maybe a whole new business for these families by hitching their outrage to the Tea Bagger Movement and going from event to event giving speeches and selling books/CD's. If they can get a good Evangelical bent to the whole show then they can also go to churches and give testimonies on the evils of PC public school and how GOD told them to wear those Tshirts.
I hear love offerings can be quite lucrative....Mike Huckabee has made a pretty good living off of them in the past.

124 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:43:07am

re: #103 Locker

Well I don't consider an American flag provocative, and people leading the charge to say it is are really playing into the hands of that tribal nationalist white victim hood crowd that wants to make this into an outrage.
It's silly, the principle was wrong, like I said above - nontroversy. I was wondering why Limbaugh was blathering about Cinco de Mayo today, he was probably leading up to this. (Didnt catch the whole show.)

125 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:43:08am

Students should wear school uniforms. Problem solved.

126 iossarian  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:43:10am

re: #108 Obdicut

A long time ago, in Britain, the Union Jack was appropriated by racists and neoNazis. The usage of it was often as a provocation, most especially against Pakistani, Sikh, Indian, and Carribean immigrants. "There ain't no black in the Union Jack" was something skinhead thugs chanted in the streets.

Use of the American flag in the US today is very similar to the past UK situation you describe, with the difference that it seems to be more acceptable to the mainstream (whatever that is). Personally I don't like flags much.

127 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:43:12am

re: #97 Girth

Overreaction from the school administration? Most likely.

Were the kids wearing those shirts just to be douchebags to hispanic kids? Most assuredly.

Back when I was a teacher, I had to deal with parents of kids like this on a few occasions...the administration always treated them (the parents) with kid gloves--and the parents expected it. I, on the other hand, would say something like, "Well, we all know your child is very bright, and I find it hard to believe he's too stupid to know what he was doing." That almost always got the parents to back off and look at their kid--the choice was either accept the fact that their kid acted inappropriately on purpose, or say the kid was too stupid to know better.

128 sngnsgt  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:43:13am

re: #69 reloadingisnotahobby

If it made out of a flag...Yes!
Red White and Blue w/Statrs...No

Ahh, thanks for the interpretation. If it's a flag-flag, yes. If it's just a shirt with stars and stripes, no. I just don't think it's something I would wear. As my ex-gf might say, "It makes my but 'look' big."

129 Renaissance_Man  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:43:48am

Come on guys. Let's not fall into the media hype trap. We're smarter than this.

There's no evidence to suggest that the flag-wearing kids were especially provocative. Yes, it is probable, even likely, and certainly the self-righteous attitude of the little snots is highly suggestive, but there's nothing beyond that to go on, so no need for further speculation.

There's no good reason to believe some teenage girl who says she's 'outraged' that the white kids would 'disrespect their national holiday' either. Of course she's going to say that. If I was a teenager and the other guy's little playground gang was all up in my face, I'd say, 'yeah, they were totally dissing me' too. And if there was any undertone of nationalistic rhetoric in what we'd been saying to each other, I'd probably nod if the reporter asked me about it too. Totally, man. Like, they were all dissing my flag, dude. Wringing our hands over how terrible it is that these kids and the evil liberal PC teachers want to trample over the rights of good Americans is nothing more than ludicrous hype.

There's no good reason to believe the school did anything wrong at all. Yes, their district says they disagree with them. So what. What is the district going to say? 'Yes, we support our school'? When they know that this will be played all over the local media as 'School district supports principal who stomped all over the flag and spat in the eye of the Founding Fathers'?

It's a trivial event. Some schoolkids got into a pissing match, there were nationalistic undertones to it, the school broke it up. Little Danny whined to his parents, they got outraged, reporters asked little Annicia if she was equally outraged, now it's a big f-ing deal.

130 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:44:19am

re: #115 Charles

I agree, but the item is ok on other days, and the school board says it's ok. If this were any other venue the ACLU would win this case, and you know it.

131 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:44:19am

re: #125 Alouette

Students should wear school uniforms. Problem solved.

Let them know my Catholic School pain...

132 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:44:27am

re: #120 SpaceJesus

yeah, this is pretty dumb on the school's part.

if the kids were wearing "go back to mexico, wetbacks" shirts, then i could see the school telling the kids to take that shit off. not so much here though.

what do you suppose the message was with the garb that day?

133 sagehen  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:44:41am

“They said we could wear it on any other day,” Daniel Galli said, “but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it’s supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today.”


The reporter doesn't bother to ask... have they, in fact, worn it on any other day? Or is a Cinco de Mayo a special occasion, the one and only time all semester they feel the need to be Conspicuously Flag-o-riffic?

134 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:44:48am

OT - I don't know if this is funny, sad or both:

Justin Bieber tells fans to calm down due to Kardashian threats

Teen sensation Justin Bieber is the the newest teenage heart throb. Bieber's Twitter message that Kim Kardashian was his girlfriend on May 1, 2010 caused a flurry of death messages to Kardashian, causing Bieber to retract the statement on May 5, 2010.

135 Digital Display  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:44:49am

re: #115 Charles

I'll bet a trillion dollars those same boys where wearing green on St. Patricks Day...Anybody want to take that bet?

136 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:44:56am

re: #90 Charles

IMHO that last modifier is not required.

137 ArchangelMichael  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:45:16am

re: #77 darthstar

The kids wearing the American flag shirts were just acting like their parents(just without the Obama=Hitler signs). It wasn't about American pride, it was an 'in your face' attempt at insulting the hispanic students. Sure, the admin could have handled the situation better, but this is good for a week's worth of outrage on Fox, and then it'll blow over. The four kids will probably get to enjoy being called teabaggers by their friends for a few weeks longer.

I'm with JasonA on this. Despite what the intentions of these kids were, the fact that people bent over backwards to try to avoid an incident is ridiculous. If the sight of Americans wearing American flags on their clothes in the US is enough to incite violence among some students, they are the problem, not the people with the shirts on. It was an American flag, not the Stars and Bars, not a Nazi Flag, not a KKK symbol, not the Hamas or Hezbollah flags, or any other symbol of ignorance or oppression. Any reasonable person would blow it off, maybe call them a bunch of douchebags out of earshot for doing it that day and move on. It's not worth bashing someones head in over or getting so bent out of shape as to be traumatized by it.

I will agree though, the right-wing kookosphere will go barking nuts about this way out of proportion to the incident.

138 oklahoma  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:45:19am

re: #132 The Shadow Do

what do you suppose the message was with the garb that day?

If you want to live in this country support America?

139 avanti  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:45:19am

re: #62 Macha

In some places, just looking at someone is enough.

I think wearing the flag bandannas was a tipping point, and sitting as a group, The intent was to provoke, not a spontaneous display of patriotism. The Mexican kids were celebrating their one sort of made up holiday and the other kids wanted to pee on their parade.

140 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:45:25am

If we are trying to reduce tensions between the races in America, then telling people they can't wear an American flag shirt is not the way to do it. It's pretty easy to see that that's going to have the opposite effect. Increase resentment, increase tension.

141 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:45:31am

re: #132 The Shadow Do

what do you suppose the message was with the garb that day?

Yeah, but I could see a person completely innocent wearing that, too. I think that's where the difference lies with me.

142 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:45:34am

re: #135 HoosierHoops

I'll bet a trillion dollars those same boys where wearing green on St. Patricks Day...Anybody want to take that bet?

You are probably right.

143 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:45:40am

re: #135 HoosierHoops

I'll bet a trillion dollars those same boys where wearing green on St. Patricks Day...Anybody want to take that bet?

Would they have been in trouble if they had worn a US flag instead?

144 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:46:04am

re: #125 Alouette

Students should wear school uniforms. Problem solved.

They should all just go to school naked! (but only if they're 18 or older.)

145 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:46:18am

re: #135 HoosierHoops

I'll bet a trillion dollars those same boys where wearing green on St. Patricks Day...Anybody want to take that bet?

Can I pinch you if you are wrong?

146 Joo-LiZ  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:46:20am

On Topic:
I haven't heard anything about this case/read through this thread yet, but my first reaction to reading the post is that in defense of the students -- they were in an American school. If Mexican students were to wear Mexican flags in Mexico and American students at that school had issue with it, it would be the Americans problem, not the Mexicans. It seems like it could be seen as being overly PC.

That's just my initial reaction, and all that being said, I can see how after the Arizona Law school administrators would be on the lookout for behaviour seen as "provocative".

Off Topic:

Anybody else see anything about a reported bomb scare on a Bus in New Hampshire?

It's being reported in the Jerusalem Post but I don't see it elsewhere (CNN/FoxNews), and I find it odd that the JPost would have something like that before US outlets do...

147 oriana fan  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:46:23am

These are children attending a school in the US paid for with local and federal tax dollars. While the school is free to celebrate whatever day they want as a measure of cultural sensitivity, these kids should be free to express their sentiment. Under no circumstances can the display of the US flag on US soil ever be incendiary.

Whatever happened to the value we placed on assimilation? The fact that these kids get to live in the US should be a cause for daily celebration. As the son of a holocaust refugee, I know that my US citizenship is the greatest gift I could ever receive. If these kids don't feel that way, then shame on their school and their parents.

148 Locker  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:46:23am

re: #124 Thanos

Well I don't consider an American flag provocative, and people leading the charge to say it is are really playing into the hands of that tribal nationalist white victim hood crowd that wants to make this into an outrage.
It's silly, the principle was wrong, like I said above - nontroversy. I was wondering why Limbaugh was blathering about Cinco de Mayo today, he was probably leading up to this. (Didnt catch the whole show.)

It's not up to you to decide if a particular piece of clothing and situation is provocative enough to send a kid home or make a correction. It's up to the person tasked with the job, the principal. His job isn't to uphold someone's constitutional right to piss of their neighbor, it's his job to keep the peace.

This isn't some random person or student picked on for wearing a flag. This is a principal spotting potential trouble and taking action. It doesn't matter if it's an American flag, Rebel flag, red or blue bandana or whatever. It's about the context, the intent and the situation.

149 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:46:29am

re: #138 oklahoma

If you want to live in this country support America?

Yes, let's stomp out this cinco de mayo crap right now.

150 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:46:33am

re: #140 cliffster

If we are trying to reduce tensions between the races in America, then telling people they can't wear an American flag shirt is not the way to do it. It's pretty easy to see that that's going to have the opposite effect. Increase resentment, increase tension.

I think the focus of the principal was a little closer to home.

151 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:46:36am

[Link: www.truthorfiction.com...]
Here's the link

152 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:46:40am

re: #126 iossarian

No, there are plenty of people who simply fly American flags because they have children in the Armed Forces, are vets themselves, or out of simple patriotism. The flag in the US is not a racist symbol. You'll find US flags flying next to rainbow ones in the Castro, and throughout the Mission in San Francisco.

However, if we treat it as socially-- not talking about legality, but about calling things what they are-- acceptable to use the US flag as something that does convey a racist message, if we let people use it to try to start fights, to wave in the face of immigrants on their holidays as a way of asserting, stupidly, that US culture cannot include celebration of our multifarious heritage, then it will become what it did in Britain.

153 SpaceJesus  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:46:43am

re: #132 The Shadow Do

what do you suppose the message was with the garb that day?


"we're in america" and or "we like america and can show pride too"

or the long shot, "we are exercising constitutionally protected freedom of expression"

154 Vambo  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:47:07am

re: #129 Renaissance_Man

Come on guys. Let's not fall into the media hype trap. We're smarter than this.

There's no evidence to suggest that the flag-wearing kids were especially provocative. Yes, it is probable, even likely, and certainly the self-righteous attitude of the little snots is highly suggestive, but there's nothing beyond that to go on, so no need for further speculation.

There's no good reason to believe some teenage girl who says she's 'outraged' that the white kids would 'disrespect their national holiday' either. Of course she's going to say that. If I was a teenager and the other guy's little playground gang was all up in my face, I'd say, 'yeah, they were totally dissing me' too. And if there was any undertone of nationalistic rhetoric in what we'd been saying to each other, I'd probably nod if the reporter asked me about it too. Totally, man. Like, they were all dissing my flag, dude. Wringing our hands over how terrible it is that these kids and the evil liberal PC teachers want to trample over the rights of good Americans is nothing more than ludicrous hype.

There's no good reason to believe the school did anything wrong at all. Yes, their district says they disagree with them. So what. What is the district going to say? 'Yes, we support our school'? When they know that this will be played all over the local media as 'School district supports principal who stomped all over the flag and spat in the eye of the Founding Fathers'?

It's a trivial event. Some schoolkids got into a pissing match, there were nationalistic undertones to it, the school broke it up. Little Danny whined to his parents, they got outraged, reporters asked little Annicia if she was equally outraged, now it's a big f-ing deal.

good post.
I think people are forgetting the fact that teenagers are idiots. Especially that girl who mentioned the Fourth of July... a teenage girl saying something outrageous? *outrage*!

155 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:47:31am

re: #140 cliffster

If we are trying to reduce tensions between the races in America, then telling people they can't wear an American flag shirt is not the way to do it. It's pretty easy to see that that's going to have the opposite effect. Increase resentment, increase tension.

And if you're trying to provoke tensions between races in America, one way to do it is to show up with in-your-face American flag clothing on Cinco de Mayo.

156 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:47:43am

re: #141 JasonA

Yeah, but I could see a person completely innocent wearing that, too. I think that's where the difference lies with me.

Something about flag attire and teenage boys in HS doesn't jibe with me.

157 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:47:45am

re: #134 Mad Al-Jaffee

His fans have caused riots all over the world... so what's a death threat or two against someone that his fans feel threatens their chances with him... /

158 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:47:50am

re: #155 Charles

And if you're trying to provoke tensions between races in America, one way to do it is to show up with in-your-face American flag clothing on Cinco de Mayo.

Or St Patrick's day...

159 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:48:09am

re: #149 The Shadow Do

Yes, let's stomp out this cinco de mayo crap right now.

Yeah, straight from the fourth to the sixth! No detours!

160 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:48:16am

re: #124 Thanos

Well I don't consider an American flag provocative, and people leading the charge to say it is are really playing into the hands of that tribal nationalist white victim hood crowd that wants to make this into an outrage.
It's silly, the principle was wrong, like I said above - nontroversy. I was wondering why Limbaugh was blathering about Cinco de Mayo today, he was probably leading up to this. (Didnt catch the whole show.)

And in regards to national flags on holidays. I was recently married to a Hispanic for almost 15 year. EVERY one of those years we spent July 4th with her mom and dad, and about 400 other Hispanics and Whites in a Denver city park... and guess what, there were Mexican flags, American flags, novelty flags, biker club flags, special interest banners... a whole plethora of "signs and symbols" related to things people were proud of.

No, it wasn't a school setting, but it was a party atmosphere, lot's of booze and other recreational substances, and not once, in 14 years, did I ever see any confrontation about the numerous symbols flying around.

This principle should be teaching ALL the students a respect for each others culture, not trying to put one over the other on any given day.

161 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:12am

re: #141 JasonA

Yeah, but I could see a person completely innocent wearing that, too. I think that's where the difference lies with me.

The problem sit hat while I could see one kid completely innocently wearing an American Flag.... I can't see five of them doing it even if its a school of thousands.

I doubly can't see all five of them wearing that flag "innocently" if they're all friends and all hang together...

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:12am

re: #91 beekiller

And all hell would have broken loose if the Mexican-American students wore Mexican shirts on the Fourth of July.

Maybe not. The dynamic of this in California is a little tricky.

163 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:17am

I think I shall wear stuff with some other country's flag on it on July 4 just to see what happens. Maybe even go to a ball game. Nothing like making the experiment real.

Help me decide, Lizards: German black-red-gold, Israeli blue and white, or Italian green-white-red? Or maybe a T-shirt with all the flags of the EU?

Which would be the most likely to incite some rent-a-cop to tell me to turn my shirt inside-out?

164 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:24am

re: #157 lawhawk

His fans have caused riots all over the world... so what's a death threat or two against someone that his fans feel threatens their chances with him... /

The kid must have lots of young lesbian fans. He looks like a girl to me.

165 oklahoma  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:37am

re: #149 The Shadow Do

Yes, let's stomp out this cinco de mayo crap right now.

I had American beer and Oklahoma Joe's ribs yesterday, so that will be fine with me. And I just sponsored an illegal who now has returned from Mexico with his Visa and he will becoming a citizen. He needs now to support this country and our culture. He can still support the Corona beer company who apparently started this so called holiday.

166 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:38am

re: #154 Vambo


I think people are forgetting the fact that teenagers are idiots.

Yeah.
This.

167 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:48am

re: #148 Locker

It's up to the school board to set standards, and if you look at Lawhawk's comment you see that they think the principle made a mistake.

168 Macha  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:49am

re: #148 Locker

It's not up to you to decide if a particular piece of clothing and situation is provocative enough to send a kid home or make a correction. It's up to the person tasked with the job, the principal. His job isn't to uphold someone's constitutional right to piss of their neighbor, it's his job to keep the peace.

This isn't some random person or student picked on for wearing a flag. This is a principal spotting potential trouble and taking action. It doesn't matter if it's an American flag, Rebel flag, red or blue bandana or whatever. It's about the context, the intent and the situation.

Exactly!

169 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:59am

re: #156 Stanley Sea

Something about flag attire and teenage boys in HS doesn't jibe with me.

Well, I'm not saying it's terribly likely...

Listen, I'd love to see tribalism be a thing of the past, I just don't think banning American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo helps that cause.

170 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:59am

re: #163 Cato the Elder

I think I shall wear stuff with some other country's flag on it on July 4 just to see what happens. Maybe even go to a ball game. Nothing like making the experiment real.

Help me decide, Lizards: German black-red-gold, Israeli blue and white, or Italian green-white-red? Or maybe a T-shirt with all the flags of the EU?

Which would be the most likely to incite some rent-a-cop to tell me to turn my shirt inside-out?


My vote is for Beers of the World.
//

171 Haole  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:50:08am

This nontroversy sure is a controversy here.

172 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:50:46am

re: #165 oklahoma

I had American beer and Oklahoma Joe's ribs yesterday, so that will be fine with me. And I just sponsored an illegal who now has returned from Mexico with his Visa and he will becoming a citizen. He needs now to support this country and our culture. He can still support the Corona beer company who apparently started this so called holiday.

Mexicans know Corona for the swill that it is. Like Aussies and Fosters.

173 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:51:18am

Shit, I'm not a hyperpatriot, but I actually find using the flag as anything other than a flag-- as a piece of clothing, decoration on your van, whatever-- to be crass, shitty, and disrespectful.

So I'm kinda biased. I don't even like Obama's logo, for that reason.

174 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:51:19am

re: #163 Cato the Elder

Oh, just go for the gusto. Choose the Iranian flag. I suspect a few people might think that it's a poorly done Italian flag though.

175 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:51:28am

re: #171 Haole

I find that offensive!!
Don be disrespecting on me!!
//

176 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:51:47am

re: #163 Cato the Elder

I think I shall wear stuff with some other country's flag on it on July 4 just to see what happens. Maybe even go to a ball game. Nothing like making the experiment real.

Help me decide, Lizards: German black-red-gold, Israeli blue and white, or Italian green-white-red? Or maybe a T-shirt with all the flags of the EU?

Which would be the most likely to incite some rent-a-cop to tell me to turn my shirt inside-out?

Depends on where you are. People in some areas might be offended, in others they just won't give a damn.

177 Lidane  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:51:51am

re: #97 Girth

Overreaction from the school administration? Most likely.

Were the kids wearing those shirts just to be douchebags to hispanic kids? Most assuredly.

I'm of the mind that we don't know exactly what happened, so while the school administrators probably overreacted, there might be stuff we're not privy to here, like past bad blood between the kids in the American flag shirts and the Mexican-American kids they were taunting, or whatever.

Just look at all the news we've been discussing about those idiotic new laws in AZ. How do we know that the situation in Arizona wasn't used as a flashpoint for other incidents of taunting or other douchebag behavior, with the flag shirts being the last straw? I think there's far more to this story than we've been told.

Was it an overreaction? If we assume that there wasn't any prior history between the kids in the flag shirts and the Mexican American kids, then sure. It would be. But without all the details, we can't make that assumption. I'd probably err on the side of caution if I was an administrator and try to diffuse the tension before it got out of hand.

178 Locker  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:51:51am

re: #167 Thanos

It's up to the school board to set standards, and if you look at Lawhawk's comment you see that they think the principle made a mistake.

You think there is a standard for this particular situation? Are you suggesting that Principal isn't in charge of day to day activities? Or are you suggesting that the Principal phones up the school board before he makes any decisions?

It doesn't matter what the school board thinks about a single judgment that's well within the principals rights to make. They weren't there, they don't know what happened and what the situation entails and I think THEY are wrong for not supporting their principal.

179 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:51:56am

re: #175 reloadingisnotahobby

I find that offensive!!
Don be disrespecting on me!!
//

Who's Don?
/

180 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:52:00am

re: #148 Locker

It's not up to you to decide if a particular piece of clothing and situation is provocative enough to send a kid home or make a correction. It's up to the person tasked with the job, the principal. His job isn't to uphold someone's constitutional right to piss of their neighbor, it's his job to keep the peace.

This isn't some random person or student picked on for wearing a flag. This is a principal spotting potential trouble and taking action. It doesn't matter if it's an American flag, Rebel flag, red or blue bandana or whatever. It's about the context, the intent and the situation.

Show me something in the article that indicates that the kids wearing the American flags were going to cause trouble.

181 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:52:04am

re: #163 Cato the Elder

I think I shall wear stuff with some other country's flag on it on July 4 just to see what happens. Maybe even go to a ball game. Nothing like making the experiment real.

Help me decide, Lizards: German black-red-gold, Israeli blue and white, or Italian green-white-red? Or maybe a T-shirt with all the flags of the EU?

Which would be the most likely to incite some rent-a-cop to tell me to turn my shirt inside-out?

German Black Red and Gold.

Though if you truly want to be a d*** about it go with the Union Jack.

182 badger1970  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:52:09am

re: #172 rwdflynavy

Any beer that requires a wedge of fruit in the neck is not a beer. IMHO.

183 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:52:12am

re: #154 Vambo

I think people are forgetting the fact that teenagers are idiots.

The real idiots here are the parents who put these kids up to this little stunt.

184 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:52:13am

re: #174 lawhawk

Oh, just go for the gusto. Choose the Iranian flag. I suspect a few people might think that it's a poorly done Italian flag though.

The easiest flag to draw is Lybia's. All you need is a green marker.

185 oklahoma  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:52:37am

re: #172 rwdflynavy

Mexicans know Corona for the swill that it is. Like Aussies and Fosters.

I had fresh Corona in brown bottles in Peurta Vallarta. Personally I thought it was very good. In stores where they don't move much of it it gets skunky because of the clear bottle.

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:52:50am

re: #119 reloadingisnotahobby

Palo Alto Ca...
I'm looking for it...
Hope it was correct..er ...not correct.
Really pissed off alot of people.

Here. Please note that this was an act of vandalism by protestors, and NOT something the school chose to do.

187 iossarian  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:52:55am

re: #152 Obdicut

I mostly agree with you. I didn't really state my point clearly above - I think the US flag is used in the same way as it has been used in the UK (i.e., as a kind of purity test) but I agree that it is also used in a more innocent way (which of course was and is also true in the UK).

What I find worrying is that there is generally less condemnation of the former use, of which the current news item seems to be a fairly clear example.

188 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:53:08am

re: #165 oklahoma

I had American beer and Oklahoma Joe's ribs yesterday, so that will be fine with me. And I just sponsored an illegal who now has returned from Mexico with his Visa and he will becoming a citizen. He needs now to support this country and our culture.

But without turning his back on his culture...right?
Because American culture, depending where you live, is a mix of cultures.

For that matter this goes back to trying to say what is American culture.
For me it involves BBQ and German potato salad and beer.

189 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:53:09am

re: #181 jamesfirecat

German Black Red and Gold.

Though if you truly want to be a d*** about it go with the Union Jack.

That's it!

Done deal.

190 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:53:13am

re: #173 Obdicut

Indeed.

§ 8. Respect for Flag.
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, state flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free.
191 SpaceJesus  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:53:21am

the only thing that would make this funnier is if the school took down the american flag flying outside and replaced it with a mexican one yesterday. god, free republic would be entertaining as hell if that had happened.

192 Locker  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:53:42am

re: #180 Thanos

Show me something in the article that indicates that the kids wearing the American flags were going to cause trouble.

What for do you think the principal read an article first to gather the facts before he made the decision?

193 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:27am

re: #173 Obdicut

Shit, I'm not a hyperpatriot, but I actually find using the flag as anything other than a flag-- as a piece of clothing, decoration on your van, whatever-- to be crass, shitty, and disrespectful.

So I'm kinda biased. I don't even like Obama's logo, for that reason.

I actually find it distasteful, too. Then again, I find it odd that Christians have been wearing the method of their Lord's execution around their necks for centuries now so what do I know?

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:28am

re: #133 sagehen

“They said we could wear it on any other day,” Daniel Galli said, “but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it’s supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today.”


The reporter doesn't bother to ask... have they, in fact, worn it on any other day? Or is a Cinco de Mayo a special occasion, the one and only time all semester they feel the need to be Conspicuously Flag-o-riffic?

On the local news last night, they said they had worn the stuff before.

195 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:41am

re: #178 Locker

You think there is a standard for this particular situation? Are you suggesting that Principal isn't in charge of day to day activities? Or are you suggesting that the Principal phones up the school board before he makes any decisions?

It doesn't matter what the school board thinks about a single judgment that's well within the principals rights to make. They weren't there, they don't know what happened and what the situation entails and I think THEY are wrong for not supporting their principal.

I'm suggesting that the principle made a mistake. I'm saying that school board disagrees with his decision. Now unless you are a mind reader, or you yourself were there to observe you are just wildly speculating. On the few facts we have I consider the principle to have made a mistake, that's my opinion, you need to show me some countervailing facts if you really want to change it.

196 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:47am

re: #159 wrenchwench

Yeah, straight from the fourth to the sixth! No detours!

haha! There you go again with those zingers!

197 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:47am

Maybe we could start a new feature for school administrators: Hyperventilating Hyperventilation of the Day.

198 iossarian  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:49am

re: #163 Cato the Elder

I think I shall wear stuff with some other country's flag on it on July 4 just to see what happens. Maybe even go to a ball game. Nothing like making the experiment real.

Help me decide, Lizards: German black-red-gold, Israeli blue and white, or Italian green-white-red? Or maybe a T-shirt with all the flags of the EU?

Which would be the most likely to incite some rent-a-cop to tell me to turn my shirt inside-out?

One of my more entertaining daydreams is to become a Muslim NASCAR driver, and ostentatiously thank Allah in my post-race interviews for guiding me to victory.

199 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:51am

re: #190 lawhawk

Indeed.

Enforcing those statues would require the arrest of so many people for breaking all of those rules. I'd actually enjoy that.

200 Renaissance_Man  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:53am

re: #180 Thanos

Show me something in the article that indicates that the kids wearing the American flags were going to cause trouble.

The fact that the kids, on both sides, were teenagers is evidence enough.

201 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:57am

re: #133 sagehen

“They said we could wear it on any other day,” Daniel Galli said, “but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it’s supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today.”


The reporter doesn't bother to ask... have they, in fact, worn it on any other day? Or is a Cinco de Mayo a special occasion, the one and only time all semester they feel the need to be Conspicuously Flag-o-riffic?


That said, I don't know if they had ALL worn ALL of their flag stuff on the same day in the past.

202 Digital Display  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:55:04am

re: #143 rwdflynavy

Would they have been in trouble if they had worn a US flag instead?

Well hell yea..If the principle felt some trouble makers were wearing any thing including a flag of any country to pick a fight..You went to High School..A principle knows when people want trouble in school...If I was the principle I would encourage all my students to celebrate the holiday..You have 364 other days of the year to fly our flag...show a little class and celebrate with out neighbors..For God's Sake.. People are hiding behind the Flag for politics..Americans are very proud of our Flag...It was paid for in Blood..
Don't hide behind it for politics points...

203 Girth  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:55:06am

re: #163 Cato the Elder

I think I shall wear stuff with some other country's flag on it on July 4 just to see what happens. Maybe even go to a ball game. Nothing like making the experiment real.

Help me decide, Lizards: German black-red-gold, Israeli blue and white, or Italian green-white-red? Or maybe a T-shirt with all the flags of the EU?

Which would be the most likely to incite some rent-a-cop to tell me to turn my shirt inside-out?

Get a shirt with a British flag, fake an accent and ask everyone you meet if they're ready to rejoin the Empire yet. Sing God Save the Queen every so often.

204 Lidane  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:55:33am

re: #134 Mad Al-Jaffee

OT - I don't know if this is funny, sad or both:

Justin Bieber tells fans to calm down due to Kardashian threats

Poor kid. Something tells me he won't be dating anyone for a long, long while, especially if his fans can't see that it was a joke. If something as harmless as joking about Kim Kardashian being his girlfriend sets them off that badly, I'd hate to think what they'd do if he actually started dating someone his own age.

205 Haole  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:55:34am

My son told me that the biggest, thickest Mexican kid in his weight training class wore an American flag shirt to school yesterday.

206 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:55:46am

re: #183 Charles

The real idiots here are the parents who put these kids up to this little stunt.

Is there a link for that? Are we missing some info? I'm willing to change my mind on this if we know it was parent's sending messages through children....

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:55:57am

re: #137 ArchangelMichael

Any reasonable person would blow it off, maybe call them a bunch of douchebags out of earshot for doing it that day and move on. It's not worth bashing someones head in over or getting so bent out of shape as to be traumatized by it.
.

Please note, we are talking about teenagers, not reasonable people.

208 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:56:03am

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

On the local news last night, they said they had worn the stuff before.

If I was some kind of crazy conspiracy theorist I would say that they were just establishing an alibi...

209 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:56:09am

We buried a GREAT American yesterday!!
Franco Aguilar !
Marine,Sheriffs Deputy and Hispanic American!!
The Funeral procession stretched 8 miles!
Not a Mexican Flag to be seen!
A great American!

Later!
Lunch!!

210 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:56:27am

re: #207 SanFranciscoZionist

Please note, we are talking about teenagers, not reasonable people.

No... we are really talking about irresponsible parents that put them up to it.

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:56:57am

re: #143 rwdflynavy

Would they have been in trouble if they had worn a US flag instead?

Might have been, in some places, if they'd worn the Union Jack, as people have pointed out.

212 oklahoma  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:56:58am

re: #205 Haole

My son told me that the biggest, thickest Mexican kid in his weight training class wore an American flag shirt to school yesterday.

Hooray for that kid.

213 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:57:04am

re: #163 Cato the Elder

Go with the Israeli flag themed shirt. That way you have a better chance of offending a wider group of people.

214 Girth  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:57:15am

re: #185 oklahoma

I had fresh Corona in brown bottles in Peurta Vallarta. Personally I thought it was very good. In stores where they don't move much of it it gets skunky because of the clear bottle.

True. If you like Corona (I'm not a huge fan but it's ok), buy it in 12 packs, which are solid boxes and protect the bottles from light.

215 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:57:16am

"So burn that flag if you must! But before you do, you'd better burn a few
other things! You'd better burn your shirt and your pants! Be sure to
burn your TV and car! Oh yeah, and don't forget to burn your house!
Because none of those things would exist without six red stripes, seven
red stripes, and a helluva lot of stars!!"

-Nelson Muntz

216 badger1970  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:57:20am

re: #203 Girth

Get a shirt with a British flag, fake an accent and ask everyone you meet if they're ready to rejoin the Empire yet. Sing God Save the Queen every so often.

Then I'll respond by wearing a kilt and singing "Flower of Scotland". //

217 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:57:30am

re: #186 SanFranciscoZionist

Never said the school did anything!

218 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:57:39am

re: #206 Thanos

Is there a link for that? Are we missing some info? I'm willing to change my mind on this if we know it was parent's sending messages through children...

The parents are all over the right wing talk shows today.

219 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:58:01am

re: #134 Mad Al-Jaffee

OT - I don't know if this is funny, sad or both:

Justin Bieber tells fans to calm down due to Kardashian threats

What does it say about me that I neither know nor care who these people are?

220 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:58:32am

re: #193 JasonA

I actually find it distasteful, too. Then again, I find it odd that Christians have been wearing the method of their Lord's execution around their necks for centuries now so what do I know?

I'll admit I get teary-eyed when I see this guy wearing the flag, though.

221 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:58:35am

re: #202 HoosierHoops

Well hell yea..If the principle felt some trouble makers were wearing any thing including a flag of any country to pick a fight..You went to High School..A principle knows when people want trouble in school...If I was the principle I would encourage all my students to celebrate the holiday..You have 364 other days of the year to fly our flag...show a little class and celebrate with out neighbors..For God's Sake.. People are hiding behind the Flag for politics..Americans are very proud of our Flag...It was paid for in Blood..
Don't hide behind it for politics points...

Hoops, first thing you need to know if you want the job...it is spelled Principal (because he is your pal, not your ple) ; )

Second thing, I can't see Irish Americans seeing a US flag on St. Paddy's day as an insult to their culture...

222 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:58:38am

Here's what the school board says from the article:

The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions.

I'm seeing speculation that parents put the kids up to this, someone have something that states that or news reports on same? Interviews with parents or what?

223 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:59:12am

re: #219 Cato the Elder

What does it say about me that I neither know nor care who these people are?

You have a life!

224 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:59:13am

re: #218 Charles

The parents are all over the right wing talk shows today.

Ahhh .. missed that part, you are probably correct then.

225 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:59:30am

re: #64 wrenchwench


the story was on yahoo's front page with video from the news report/interview.

226 Macha  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:59:40am

re: #169 JasonA

Well, I'm not saying it's terribly likely...

Listen, I'd love to see tribalism be a thing of the past, I just don't think banning American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo helps that cause.

I'd like to eliminate tribalism too and banning American Flag T-shirts won't advance that cause. But I think the issue here isn't banning the T-shirt , but rather defusing a potential problem. The way it was handled, unfortunately, is going to cause more problems and create even more of a divide. It is happening right now here. I would like to give credit to the principal, who, seeing a building situation that could turn ugly, chose to try to defuse it. If he had time to think about it in advance, he most likely would have chosen another means. But he didn't have time. He had to decide on the spot and he gave it his best shot. Unfortunately he hit his foot with it and the whole event will be used exactly in the way that was originally meant. To create chaos and bad feelings.

227 Locker  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:59:48am

re: #195 Thanos

I'm suggesting that the principle made a mistake. I'm saying that school board disagrees with his decision. Now unless you are a mind reader, or you yourself were there to observe you are just wildly speculating. On the few facts we have I consider the principle to have made a mistake, that's my opinion, you need to show me some countervailing facts if you really want to change it.

You are the one who is wildly speculating without the facts. You weren't there, you aren't him and you have NO IDEA that this was just some "pick on the flag" decision and you can't show any facts to support your suggestion either... other than the school board disagrees with a decision that they were also, not there to make.

You and a lot of others here are insinuating, without proof, that this principal is stating or implying that the flag is offensive. You don't know this to be true in any way, shape or form. The likelihood is that he was trying to head off trouble, something he does all day long.

I trust my commanders on the field and I trust my principals with making these kinds of decisions. Side seat driving and condemnation without the facts isn't advisable.

228 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:00:06am

re: #190 lawhawk

(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free.

Uh oh.

Image: normal_A11USFlag.jpg

229 Kruk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:00:13am

re: #190 lawhawk

Indeed.

Couldn't help noticing this bit: (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel

So were these fine young patriots in fact showing disrespect to the flag they were so proud of?

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:00:28am

re: #198 iossarian

One of my more entertaining daydreams is to become a Muslim NASCAR driver, and ostentatiously thank Allah in my post-race interviews for guiding me to victory.

And I will say the same thing I say when Jesus is credited--"Why do you imagine he cares?"

231 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:00:31am

re: #224 Thanos

Ahhh .. missed that part, you are probably correct then.

In fact, two of the parents went on Laura Ingraham's show this morning.

232 researchok  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:00:32am

As someone to the right of center, I can't believe this story is stirring such passionate debate.

The issues at hand are about as deep as a puddle.

Cinco de Mayo, like St Patrick's Day, like Columbus Day is about highlighting a group that is an integral part of the American mosaic. Notwithstanding the politics of the day, that is what these holidays are all about.

That any group would piss on the parade of another speaks little of them. That a school administration has to be concerned about safety on a day that is meant to celebrate a particular heritage makes it a sad day.

It isn't as if these Mexican American kids were trampling American flags or insulting others.

This story really highlights how we have allowed ugly politics into every aspect of of our lives. No wonder kids are so cynical about about the country.

233 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:00:37am

re: #218 Charles

The parents are all over the right wing talk shows today.

Hey, if they can get a free flight to New York City to see Fox & Friends live because of this, it'll totally be worth acting like their kids weren't just being assholes...with their permission.

234 gamark  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:00:56am

re: #173 Obdicut

Does this apply to flags on police, fire, military uniforms?

235 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:01:25am

re: #206 Thanos

Is there a link for that? Are we missing some info? I'm willing to change my mind on this if we know it was parent's sending messages through children...

There was the recent news story about that group of parents from the church that posts signs outside its building saying "Islam Is of the Devil" sending their kids to school in clothing emblazoned with the same slogan. The kids were sent home, now the parents are suing - with the backing of the ACLU.

I wonder if the ACLU will be willing to take this case, too.

236 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:01:25am

re: #155 Charles

And if you're trying to provoke tensions between races in America, one way to do it is to show up with in-your-face American flag clothing on Cinco de Mayo.

Works both ways. The kids shouldn't have worn the shirts, the principal shouldn't have sent them home.

237 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:01:27am

re: #231 Charles

In fact, two of the parents went on Laura Ingraham's show last night.

And said they put their kids up to this? I'm looking for interviews right now. Did the parents cop on arranging this with the kids?

238 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:01:30am

"Tribalism, tribalism for sale here, highest quality, guaranteed to pit "you" against "them."

Only in this case it sounds like the school went a bit overboard in their imagined attempt to prevent it and instead caused the very thing they feared. If they were wearing t-shirts that said "wetbacks suck" or something I would understand it, but when did the American flag become a symbol of racism that needs to be censored?

It may be the Outrageous outrage of the day (and hence meaningless) as far as some are concerned, but I find it a completely unnecessary affront that is worthy of a bit of indignation.

239 Slap  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:01:50am

re: #5 Renaissance_Man

their martyr cookie parents (I like that term, Slap)

Well, thanks --- but if it weren't for several of SFZ's incisive, gentle defenestrations of certain trollers' verbiage using the "martyr cookie" term over time, I'd never have known it existed. So, please, ladies and gentlemen, a hand for our own SFZ!

Wish I could take credit, though. It's a good'n.

240 oklahoma  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:03am

re: #229 Kruk

Couldn't help noticing this bit: (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel

So were these fine young patriots in fact showing disrespect to the flag they were so proud of?

Image: Ayers.jpg

Like this guy?

241 avanti  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:05am

re: #173 Obdicut

Shit, I'm not a hyperpatriot, but I actually find using the flag as anything other than a flag-- as a piece of clothing, decoration on your van, whatever-- to be crass, shitty, and disrespectful.

So I'm kinda biased. I don't even like Obama's logo, for that reason.

I agree, and using the flag simply to provoke is pretty lame too. As many have said, if one kid showed up, no big deal, but a group sitting together, some with flag bandannas could be seen as provocation on this one day the Mexican kids have. No question, the bandannas of any type were against school policy.

242 Nimed  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:06am

re: #7 JasonA

Their intentions are irrelevant to me.

That's the essence of the episode for me too. I don't particularly like dress codes either, but at least they do not depend on an arbitrary decision made on the spot.

As it almost always happens in this cases, explicitly forbidding the provocation is counterproductive. These brats and their relatives are now playing the victim.

243 Digital Display  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:07am

re: #221 rwdflynavy

Hoops, first thing you need to know if you want the job...it is spelled Principal (because he is your pal, not your ple) ; )

Second thing, I can't see Irish Americans seeing a US flag on St. Paddy's day as an insult to their culture...

Spell check /on
Idiot check /off

244 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:13am

re: #229 Kruk


So were these fine young patriots in fact showing disrespect to the flag they were so proud of?

Yes, but for some reason, the actual rules about respecting the flag don't apply to Real Patriots. I've never understood why.

My grandpa would have yelled at them on basic principles. Especially if he had been a principal.

245 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:23am

re: #232 researchok

As someone to the right of center, I can't believe this story is stirring such passionate debate.

The issues at hand are about as deep as a puddle.

Cinco de Mayo, like St Patrick's Day, like Columbus Day is about highlighting a group that is an integral part of the American mosaic. Notwithstanding the politics of the day, that is what these holidays are all about.

That any group would piss on the parade of another speaks little of them. That a school administration has to be concerned about safety on a day that is meant to celebrate a particular heritage makes it a sad day.

It isn't as if these Mexican American kids were trampling American flags or insulting others.

This story really highlights how we have allowed ugly politics into every aspect of of our lives. No wonder kids are so cynical about about the country.

Colombus Day is about highlighting a group that is an integral part of the American Mosaic?

246 ArchangelMichael  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:27am

re: #234 gamark

Does this apply to flags on police, fire, military uniforms?

No because it says using the flag as wearing apparel, not having a flag on wearing apparel. It's not the same thing and some people are being deliberately obtuse to say otherwise.

247 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:29am

I think Charles correctly points out the difficulty the Principal faced. Damned for sure if it escalated, now damned for defusing it.

Hindsight is easy, but he may have wanted to consider taking the flag wearers and the complainants aside and had a little talk to them all about how any escalation would find them all in trouble.

248 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:54am

re: #229 Kruk

Couldn't help noticing this bit: (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel

So were these fine young patriots in fact showing disrespect to the flag they were so proud of?

That's a bit antiquated. It's technically improper to wear the flag on your clothes, but it's not really a thing any more

249 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:55am

re: #231 Charles

In fact, two of the parents went on Laura Ingraham's show last night.

Well then it's looking more like planned outrage and setup, I wish we could find evidence of "pre planning" however. They might just be wingnuts whose kids all decided to wear the shirts.. or their kids could all be skinheads, or this could just be the kids decided together for all we know. More info needed.

250 Louis  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:03:08am

Let's keep things in perspective. Cinqo de Mayo is not even a Mexican National Holiday. Most of Mexico does not celebrate it. It is a holiday in one province of Mexico Don't people see a difference between wearing an American flag t-shirt in an American classroom and wearing a Mexican flag t-shirt in an American classroom on July 4th?

251 researchok  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:03:15am

re: #245 jamesfirecat

Colombus Day is about highlighting a group that is an integral part of the American Mosaic?

Yes, Italian Americans. Huge parade in NY!

252 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:03:15am

re: #245 jamesfirecat

Colombus Day is about highlighting a group that is an integral part of the American Mosaic?

Columbians...
//

253 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:03:54am

re: #249 Thanos

Well then it's looking more like planned outrage and setup, I wish we could find evidence of "pre planning" however. They might just be wingnuts whose kids all decided to wear the shirts.. or their kids could all be skinheads, or this could just be the kids decided together for all we know. More info needed.

[Link: www.lauraingraham.com...]

254 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:04:04am

re: #245 jamesfirecat

Colombus Day is about highlighting a group that is an integral part of the American Mosaic?

I guess it isn't working as well as we Italians thought it would...

255 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:04:57am

re: #234 gamark

Flag insignias on uniforms are different. In fact, they're required under DoD directive.

256 eastsider  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:05:18am

unless they were acting aggressively towards any other students, I think they should have been allowed to wear the clothes.

257 acacia  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:05:23am

re: #126 iossarian

Come on. There is a clear distinction to be made between skin heads chanting racist slogans in the street and simply wearing a shirt with an American flag on it. I concede that wearing the American flag was probably intended to make a political statement but the fact is that nothing racist was said. Also, the only reason it could have offended someone in the first place is if the offendee viewed himself or herself as not being an American. Also, the "message" from the flag wearers could be as simple as they don't think that an American school should celebrate Cinco de Mayo. No one is forced to celebrate St. Patrick's Day, St. Joseph's Day or any other foreign holiday celebrated by descendents here. In fact there are many who wear orange on St. Patrick's day in protest of the Irish holiday and to remind people of their Northern Irish or British roots.

258 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:05:51am

re: #255 lawhawk

Flag insignias on uniforms are different. In fact, they're required under DoD directive.

Yeah, but where did the Founding Fathers write that in the CONSTiTION?

259 Soap_Man  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:05:56am

At my high school, there was three or four boys who would wear "Border Security" shirts on Cinco De Mayo and other Mexican holidays. I can't say for sure whether or not the wearing of the American flag shirts was to intentionally incite/take a poke at Mexican students, but it wouldn't surprise me.

(btw, I am not comparing the border patrol shirts to the flag shirts. I'm just saying that kids can be dicks sometimes.)

260 mikhailtheplumber  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:06:07am

I think the wingnuts are just trying to make the best of a situation that could have been a goldmine for them but wasn't, thanks to the effective action of the school authorities.
Imagine if the boys had not been reprimanded and they had gotten their asses kicked by a bunch of Hispanic-American students. That would have made the wingnuts' day. Imagine the outrage, the foaming at the mouth, the calls for sending "violent" "gangster-like" Mexican highschoolers "back to their country", even if they were American citizens.
The outrage is just rage at a missed opportunity.

261 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:07:10am

re: #249 Thanos

Well then it's looking more like planned outrage and setup, I wish we could find evidence of "pre planning" however. They might just be wingnuts whose kids all decided to wear the shirts.. or their kids could all be skinheads, or this could just be the kids decided together for all we know. More info needed.

Listening to the interview on Igraham, it appears the kids arranged it, but I don't hear anything from the mom about being coached by the parents...

262 engineer cat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:07:20am

re: #229 Kruk

Couldn't help noticing this bit: (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel

So were these fine young patriots in fact showing disrespect to the flag they were so proud of?

unpossible unless the group doing the wearing were people that fox news disapproved of

263 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:07:21am

re: #260 mikhailtheplumber

I think the wingnuts are just trying to make the best of a situation that could have been a goldmine for them but wasn't, thanks to the effective action of the school authorities.
Imagine if the boys had not been reprimanded and they had gotten their asses kicked by a bunch of Hispanic-American students. That would have made the wingnuts' day. Imagine the outrage, the foaming at the mouth, the calls for sending "violent" "gangster-like" Mexican highschoolers "back to their country", even if they were American citizens.
The outrage is just rage at a missed opportunity.

I was the only white kid dumb enough to go to Gillette Middle School in Kingsville Texas on "Beat up Gringo" day. I did not wear a flag t-shirt either.

264 eastsider  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:07:21am

re: #260 mikhailtheplumber

I think the wingnuts are just trying to make the best of a situation that could have been a goldmine for them but wasn't, thanks to the effective action of the school authorities.
Imagine if the boys had not been reprimanded and they had gotten their asses kicked by a bunch of Hispanic-American students. That would have made the wingnuts' day. Imagine the outrage, the foaming at the mouth, the calls for sending "violent" "gangster-like" Mexican highschoolers "back to their country", even if they were American citizens.
The outrage is just rage at a missed opportunity.

i think that implies a level of complex thought that may not be there for most "wingnuts"

I think they're just pissed on the base level of someone being asked to remove a shirt w/ an american flag on it.

265 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:07:45am

re: #248 cliffster

That's a bit antiquated. It's technically improper to wear the flag on your clothes, but it's not really a thing any more

Well, it should be.

And people - especially politicians - who actually or figuratively wrap or drape themselves in the flag should be exiled to Samoa.

266 eastsider  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:08:14am

re: #265 Cato the Elder

Well, it should be.

And people - especially politicians - who actually or figuratively wrap or drape themselves in the flag should be exiled to Samoa.

but what about flag lapel pins?

267 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:08:29am

re: #247 The Shadow Do

I think Charles correctly points out the difficulty the Principal faced. Damned for sure if it escalated, now damned for defusing it.

I think he has a little personal experience that resonates on the topic as well.

268 gamark  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:08:59am

re: #210 Walter L. Newton

Maybe the parents put them up to it. Unless those kids make a habit of wearing flag motif clothing, its pretty obvious they were being intentionally provocative. Like all kids, they are a product of their upbringing and likely picked up any indignation at celebrating a Mexican holiday in the US from their parents. So the parents certainly play a part, but as a rule, teenagers don't wear the kind of clothes their parents ask them to wear.

269 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:09:08am

re: #184 Mad Al-Jaffee

The easiest flag to draw is Lybia's. All you need is a green marker.

I was told that the simplest flag was the French battle flag - Plain white.

(Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week...) ;)

270 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:09:29am

re: #265 Cato the Elder

Well, it should be.

And people - especially politicians - who actually or figuratively wrap or drape themselves in the flag should be exiled to Samoa.

I dunno, the intent is to show patriotism. Kids these days just don't know how to show respect. Get off my lawn!

271 Soap_Man  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:09:29am

re: #229 Kruk

Couldn't help noticing this bit: (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel

So were these fine young patriots in fact showing disrespect to the flag they were so proud of?

I think that means wearing an actual flag. Like as a cape or maybe a toga. I'm pretty sure wearing clothing with a picture of an American flag or with a stars and stripes design is perfectly fine.

272 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:09:29am

*points and laughs*

Right-Wing Extremists Take On Local Law Enforcement, Lose

Right-wing extremists who question the legitimacy of Barack Obama's presidency tried to take on local law enforcement recently -- and they seem to have come out on the losing end.

First, a Tennessee man was arrested after walking into his local county courthouse to try to effect a citizen's arrest of a grand jury foreman who had refused to investigate President Obama's legitimacy to serve -- an encounter partially caught on video. That enraged one Georgia-based member of the far-right OathKeepers group. Responding to a call from an extremist leader, he drove to Tennessee with an AK-47 in a bid to get his comrade released -- only to wind up getting arrested himself.

273 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:10:08am

re: #266 eastsider

but what about flag lapel pins?

They make me puke.

274 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:10:14am

re: #265 Cato the Elder

Well, it should be.

And people - especially politicians - who actually or figuratively wrap or drape themselves in the flag should be exiled to SamoaSomalia.

Fixed it for ya!

275 eastsider  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:10:30am

re: #273 Cato the Elder

They make me puke.

socialism does bring that kind of nausea.

/

276 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:10:49am

re: #267 wrenchwench

I think he has a little personal experience that resonates on the topic as well.

Wow

277 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:10:59am

re: #272 JasonA

*points and laughs*

Right-Wing Extremists Take On Local Law Enforcement, Lose

Yeah, sadly its only funny until they start shooting.... then it becomes HILARIOUS, right up until they hit someone...

278 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:11:40am

re: #273 Cato the Elder

They make me puke.

Why?

279 ArchangelMichael  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:11:42am

re: #273 Cato the Elder

They make me puke.

The idea that someone has to wear one, or gets called out for not doing so makes me puke.

280 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:11:47am

re: #273 Cato the Elder

They make me puke.

How about if I set the flag as the background image on my PC's desktop? Is that cool?

281 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:11:56am

re: #268 gamark

Maybe the parents put them up to it. Unless those kids make a habit of wearing flag motif clothing, its pretty obvious they were being intentionally provocative. Like all kids, they are a product of their upbringing and likely picked up any indignation at celebrating a Mexican holiday in the US from their parents. So the parents certainly play a part, but as a rule, teenagers don't wear the kind of clothes their parents ask them to wear.

Listen to the interview... a mom claims that they did have a number of clothes items that were patriotic and they wore them on occasion, this was not the first time.

Noting in the Ingraham interview about the parents setting them up to do this.

I'm only relating the interview, It's 18 minutes long, and I have the link above if you want to listen.

282 Girth  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:12:05am

re: #265 Cato the Elder

Well, it should be.

And people - especially politicians - who actually or figuratively wrap or drape themselves in the flag should be exiled to Samoa.

If she's wrong, I don't want to be right:

Image: sexy-flag.jpg

283 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:12:38am

re: #282 Girth

If she's wrong, I don't want to be right:

Image: sexy-flag.jpg

Thank you.:)

284 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:12:58am

re: #282 Girth

If she's wrong, I don't want to be right:

Image: sexy-flag.jpg

God Bless the USA!

285 andres  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:13:02am

While we are entertaining thoughts, entertain mine for a while:

What would have happened if 4 students wore the USA flag in a Latino-majority school on May 5th, say, 6 years back?

My guess is that it would have gone unnoticed.

Remember, while we love to think schools are in their own little world, untainted by the "big world out there", it's false. There is enough incendiary comments in the political environment, that it's rather easy to escalate.

The school principal was "wrong" on asking the students to reverse their shirts because it was showing their flag (which they should be proud off), but he was "right" on asking them to reverse them because the political environment from which this steams wants to create that confrontation, and then have the excuse of saying, "Did you see what does dirty Mexicans* did to our kids?" and escalating it further.

286 subsailor68  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:13:20am

re: #263 rwdflynavy

I was the only white kid dumb enough to go to Gillette Middle School in Kingsville Texas on "Beat up Gringo" day. I did not wear a flag t-shirt either.

Hi rwdflynavy! Oh wow...on the way to the coast last year three guys and I had lunch at King's Inn. The tomato and avocado salad was killer - and the seafood out of this world!

287 Macha  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:13:54am

re: #173 Obdicut

Shit, I'm not a hyperpatriot, but I actually find using the flag as anything other than a flag-- as a piece of clothing, decoration on your van, whatever-- to be crass, shitty, and disrespectful.

So I'm kinda biased. I don't even like Obama's logo, for that reason.

Oh shucks, I was planning a flag tiara for the 4th this year.

288 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:14:02am

re: #244 Obdicut

Yes, but for some reason, the actual rules about respecting the flag don't apply to Real Patriots. I've never understood why.

My grandpa would have yelled at them on basic principles. Especially if he had been a principal.

Your grandpa would have really yelled at me last Fourth Of July. You're making me feel guilty for doing this:

Image: 14abms5.jpg

Is this wrong? :(

289 avanti  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:14:12am

re: #261 Walter L. Newton

Listening to the interview on Igraham, it appears the kids arranged it, but I don't hear anything from the mom about being coached by the parents...

Just found out they had flags on their shorts and shoes too.

flags.

290 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:14:20am

re: #213 Bubblehead II

Go with the Israeli flag themed shirt. That way you have a better chance of offending a wider group of people.

Buy it here.

291 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:14:21am

re: #281 Walter L. Newton

Listen to the interview... a mom claims that they did have a number of clothes items that were patriotic and they wore them on occasion, this was not the first time.

Noting in the Ingraham interview about the parents setting them up to do this.

I'm only relating the interview, It's 18 minutes long, and I have the link above if you want to listen.

And I'm still looking for any other audio or video interviews with the parents to see what they had to say about it.

If anyone has links besides the Ingraham one I posted above, please post.

292 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:14:44am

OT - Iron Man II opens tomorrow!

293 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:14:45am

re: #286 subsailor68

Hi rwdflynavy! Oh wow...on the way to the coast last year three guys and I had lunch at King's Inn. The tomato and avocado salad was killer - and the seafood out of this world!

There used to be a great Tex-Mex place, El Jardin's. Highly recommended!

294 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:15:15am

re: #289 avanti

Just found out they had flags on their shorts and shoes too.

flags.

That's just bad fashion sense if nothing else!

295 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:15:37am

Who here can describe what Cinco de Mayo celebrates? No googling.

296 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:15:41am

re: #288 beekiller

Your grandpa would have really yelled at me last Fourth Of July. You're making me feel guilty for doing this:

Image: 14abms5.jpg

Is this wrong? :(

Are you being supported by that two year old behind you? Yes, that's wrong.

297 Kruk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:16:04am

re: #282 Girth

If she's wrong, I don't want to be right:

Image: sexy-flag.jpg

There's a joke there about bright stars and broad stripes gallantly streaming over the "ramparts", but I'm not touching it.

298 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:16:12am

re: #295 cliffster

Who here can describe what Cinco de Mayo celebrates? No googling.

Margaritas and Mexican food?

299 Macha  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:16:18am

Gotta leave. Bye all.

300 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:16:31am

re: #289 avanti

Just found out they had flags on their shorts and shoes too.

flags.

"We're not trying to start trouble," said student Austin Carvalho. "We're in America. We can't wear our own colors?"

That's a bit telling...maybe it's the biker in me.

301 subsailor68  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:16:32am

re: #293 rwdflynavy

There used to be a great Tex-Mex place, El Jardin's. Highly recommended!

Looks like it's still there - thanks for the info, we'll give it a try on this year's trip!

El Jardin

302 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:16:36am

re: #278 The Shadow Do

Why?

Because patriotism-on-parade (except for the Fourth of July) is to me the sign of a scoundrel.

That flag pins have become de rigueur for a whole class of people makes my skin crawl.

303 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:16:50am

re: #285 andres

While we are entertaining thoughts, entertain mine for a while:

What would have happened if 4 students wore the USA flag in a Latino-majority school on May 5th, say, 6 years back?

My guess is that it would have gone unnoticed.

Remember, while we love to think schools are in their own little world, untainted by the "big world out there", it's false. There is enough incendiary comments in the political environment, that it's rather easy to escalate.

The school principal was "wrong" on asking the students to reverse their shirts because it was showing their flag (which they should be proud off), but he was "right" on asking them to reverse them because the political environment from which this steams wants to create that confrontation, and then have the excuse of saying, "Did you see what does dirty Mexicans* did to our kids?" and escalating it further.

We'll be seeing more incidents like this, deliberately intended to provoke racial tensions and then exploit the resulting fallout for xenophobic red meat.

304 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:17:37am

re: #289 avanti

Just found out they had flags on their shorts and shoes too.

flags.

I'm not concerned with the kids right now, I'm looking for information that claims that the parents set them up to wear these items.

Like I said above, so far, it appears that these kids did plan this to make a statement, they have worn these items in the past, and one of the students in question is half Hispanic.

I've only found one interview, and the mom in that interview doesn't indicate that she had anything to do with what they wore.

The parents part in this is still an open question.

305 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:17:47am

re: #298 rwdflynavy

Margaritas and Mexican food?

what most people consider to be Mexican food is not, in fact, Mexican food. Although it is yummy

306 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:17:53am

re: #217 reloadingisnotahobby

Never said the school did anything!

Fair enough, but that might have been inferred, so I wanted to make it clear that it was just a school that had their flagpole vandalized.

307 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:17:55am

re: #301 subsailor68

Looks like it's still there - thanks for the info, we'll give it a try on this year's trip!

El Jardin

That's it!!! Enjoy!!

308 badger1970  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:17:58am

re: #298 rwdflynavy

Margaritas and Mexican food?

Merchandising?

[Link: mexicobob.blogspot.com...]

309 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:18:02am

re: #296 wrenchwench

Are you being supported by that two year old behind you? Yes, that's wrong.

haha! No, that is my adorable and highly amused niece. My sister pays me with good food to entertain her.

310 sagehen  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:18:16am

re: #146 Joo-LiZ


Off Topic:

Anybody else see anything about a reported bomb scare on a Bus in New Hampshire?

It's being reported in the Jerusalem Post but I don't see it elsewhere (CNN/FoxNews), and I find it odd that the JPost would have something like that before US outlets do...

Live coverage on MSNBC.

Some of the hostages have been released, so apparently negotiations are going well.

311 ArchangelMichael  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:18:24am

re: #295 cliffster

Who here can describe what Cinco de Mayo celebrates? No googling.

Mexican victory in the Battle of Puebla, 1862 I think. One victory over the French in a war they eventually lost anyway.

Neither is something to be all that proud of IMO.
/

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:18:42am

re: #219 Cato the Elder

What does it say about me that I neither know nor care who these people are?

You're over thirty, and do not teach children?

313 gamark  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:19:12am

re: #273 Cato the Elder

They make me puke.

Really? If you saw someone wearing a flag lapel pin at a funeral for a soldier, it'd make you puke?

That sounds like outrageous outrage.

314 iossarian  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:19:19am

re: #300 Jeff In Ohio

"We're not trying to start trouble," said student Austin Carvalho. "We're in America. We can't wear our own colors?"

That's a bit telling...maybe it's the biker in me.

That was the money quote for me as well.

315 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:19:40am

re: #295 cliffster

Who here can describe what Cinco de Mayo celebrates? No googling.

Fifth of May, fifth of May
Outdoor f***ing starts today!


Or maybe not....

316 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:19:50am

re: #297 Kruk

but I'm not touching it.


I will!

317 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:20:03am

re: #313 gamark

Really? If you saw someone wearing a flag lapel pin at a funeral for a soldier, it'd make you puke?

That sounds like outrageous outrage.

I'm talking about the empty suits who wear them every single day.

318 researchok  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:20:11am

re: #304 Walter L. Newton

I'm not concerned with the kids right now, I'm looking for information that claims that the parents set them up to wear these items.

Like I said above, so far, it appears that these kids did plan this to make a statement, they have worn these items in the past, and one of the students in question is half Hispanic.

I've only found one interview, and the mom in that interview doesn't indicate that she had anything to do with what they wore.

The parents part in this is still an open question.

The parents involvement in this matter is irrelevant.

'Parents' of all political stripes have contributed to the toxic political environment for a long time.

We are reaping what we have sown.

319 SpaceJesus  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:20:17am

speaking of outraging certain people with a "flag" shirt, if somebody buys me this, i will love you possibly forever

[Link: blogs.villagevoice.com...]

320 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:20:26am

re: #316 darthstar

I will!

Touching what... turd? :)

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:20:40am

re: #239 Slap

Well, thanks --- but if it weren't for several of SFZ's incisive, gentle defenestrations of certain trollers' verbiage using the "martyr cookie" term over time, I'd never have known it existed. So, please, ladies and gentlemen, a hand for our own SFZ!

Wish I could take credit, though. It's a good'n.

I thank you, but the term's usage predates me on LGF. I just like it.

322 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:20:57am

re: #317 Cato the Elder

I'm talking about the empty suits who wear them every single day.

Now that Obama's president, the Republicans who used to make a big stink out of flag lapel pins don't wear them nearly as often as they used to (though the President does).

323 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:21:16am

re: #319 SpaceJesus

speaking of outraging certain people with a "flag" shirt, if somebody buys me this, i will love you possibly forever

[Link: blogs.villagevoice.com...]

We're gonna have a tv party tonight!

324 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:21:25am

re: #319 SpaceJesus

speaking of outraging certain people with a "flag" shirt, if somebody buys me this, i will love you possibly forever

[Link: blogs.villagevoice.com...]

I want this one...

325 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:21:31am

re: #240 oklahoma

Image: Ayers.jpg

Like this guy?

Downdinged for TOTAL, PURPOSEFUL, irrelevence.

Sorry.

326 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:21:51am

re: #322 darthstar

Now that Obama's president, the Republicans who used to make a big stink out of flag lapel pins don't wear them nearly as often as they used to (though the President does).


Well how else are supposed to know that he loves America?

327 subsailor68  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:21:55am

re: #307 rwdflynavy

That's it!!! Enjoy!!

Thanks! IIRC, aren't you currently in Jacksonville FL? If so, here's one you might want to try:

Giuliano's Italian Restaurant

It's a little on the high side, but absolutely terrific! (The menu is on the web-site.)

328 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:22:02am

re: #324 rwdflynavy

I want this one...

329 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:22:41am

re: #327 subsailor68

Thanks! IIRC, aren't you currently in Jacksonville FL? If so, here's one you might want to try:

Giuliano's Italian Restaurant

It's a little on the high side, but absolutely terrific! (The menu is on the web-site.)

I just moved to DC. Working in Crystal City now, but thanks for the recommendation.

330 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:22:43am

re: #318 researchok

The parents involvement in this matter is irrelevant.

'Parents' of all political stripes have contributed to the toxic political environment for a long time.

We are reaping what we have sown.

Evidently it's not irrelevant, if we are "reaping what we have sown." Is it relevant or not?

331 mikhailtheplumber  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:22:45am

re: #295 cliffster

Who here can describe what Cinco de Mayo celebrates? No googling.

Benito Juarez' victory over the forces of the French-backed Emperor Maximilian. No googling, just a history student.

332 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:23:22am

re: #329 rwdflynavy

I just moved to DC. Working in Crystal City now, but thanks for the recommendation.

I didn't know you were local. I work a couple of blocks from Union Station.

333 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:24:13am

re: #331 mikhailtheplumber

Benito Juarez' victory over the forces of the French-backed Emperor Maximilian. No googling, just a history student.

Yeah - most people will tell you "Mexican Independence Day", which it isn't, and say when Mexico defeated Spain.. wrong country. Been a lot of flags flying over that stretch of land.

334 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:24:20am

re: #332 Mad Al-Jaffee

I didn't know you were local. I work a couple of blocks from Union Station.

Cool, maybe we can grab a beer sometime. I've only met FBV in the "real" world so far.

335 researchok  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:24:28am

re: #330 Walter L. Newton

Evidently it's not irrelevant, if we are "reaping what we have sown." Is it relevant or not?

The involvement in this particular case is irrelevant.

This case was inevitable.

336 ArchangelMichael  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:24:43am

re: #331 mikhailtheplumber

Benito Juarez' victory over the forces of the French-backed Emperor Maximilian. No googling, just a history student.

Yeah but Maximillian wasn't installed until after the Battle of Puebla when the French overran Mexico City and forced the legitimate Mexican government into exile.

337 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:24:48am

re: #245 jamesfirecat

Colombus Day is about highlighting a group that is an integral part of the American Mosaic?

Yeah--Italians gloat over it!

338 Soap_Man  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:24:48am

re: #295 cliffster

Who here can describe what Cinco de Mayo celebrates? No googling.

A large marketing campaign by Corona to trump up a minor Mexican holiday get young white people to buy their swill and binge drink?

Just a guess.

339 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:25:00am

re: #334 rwdflynavy

Cool, maybe we can grab a beer sometime. I've only met FBV in the "real" world so far.

Definitely. Send me an email.

340 avanti  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:25:50am

re: #322 darthstar

Now that Obama's president, the Republicans who used to make a big stink out of flag lapel pins don't wear them nearly as often as they used to (though the President does).

Obama had better not forget to wear it one day, or the right will go nuts.

341 ArchangelMichael  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:25:52am

re: #338 Soap_Man

A large marketing campaign by Corona to trump up a minor Mexican holiday get young white people to buy their swill and binge drink?

Just a guess.

That too.

342 dcunning11235  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:26:09am

To me, the issue here is less about wearing an American flag (though I have to say I do kind of come down on the side of, "This is the US, you can where an US flag when and where, ahem, you want") and more about yet another instance of school administrators being overzealous in trying to maintain some ideal of (non)-expression. If a shirt says "No English, no job", "God hates homos", etc. that is obviously a statement that needs scrutiny and probably removal. But otherwise, just let it be; let students sort out with each other and their teachers and other regular staff what the situation is and what it means. That may not be the absolute best use of school time, but on the other hand these are the real world issues of the day and high- and even middle-schoolers need to gain experience in addressing in a broad, public setting.

Otherwise, just have students wear uniforms and let's be done with this nonsense and move onto something that actually matters.

343 Nimed  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:26:26am

re: #108 Obdicut

A long time ago, in Britain, the Union Jack was appropriated by racists and neoNazis. The usage of it was often as a provocation, most especially against Pakistani, Sikh, Indian, and Carribean immigrants. "There ain't no black in the Union Jack" was something skinhead thugs chanted in the streets.

Because the flag represents so much to us in the United States, because it is something that we do, indeed, rally around, it is a symbol with quite a bit of power. I feel speech in school is a tricky-ass issue, but I feel that any sort of common decency says that the usage of the American flag on Cinco De Mayo by a group of individuals is meant, clearly, as an insult, a provocation, or a foolish, foolish defense of their perception of America.

Racist re: #313 gamark

Really? If you saw someone wearing a flag lapel pin at a funeral for a soldier, it'd make you puke?

That sounds like outrageous outrage.

I trust you're happy that every election is now partly an arms race for who is More Proud of Being American (and who has The Most Adorable Family.)

344 researchok  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:26:33am

And the food....the food...

345 researchok  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:26:51am

re: #344 researchok

On Columbus Day

346 engineer cat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:27:16am

of course the real meaning of cinco de mayo in the u.s. is as one of those 'let's celebrate this important american ethnic group' days, such as st. pat's or columbus day

imho, we should do a better job of affirming the importance and dignity of every origin in this country on a particular day set aside for every group

347 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:27:57am

re: #346 engineer dog

of course the real meaning of cinco de mayo in the u.s. is as one of those 'let's celebrate this important american ethnic group' days, such as st. pat's or columbus day

imho, we should do a better job of affirming the importance and dignity of every origin in this country on a particular day set aside for every group

Yes... it's called the 4th of July... been there, we done that.

348 Soap_Man  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:28:08am

re: #341 ArchangelMichael

That too.

My friend's Mexican grandpa once described it as "a holiday that is important enough to notice, but one nobody cares about that much. It's our Flag Day."

Or something like that. My Spanish isn't very good.

349 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:28:32am

re: #310 sagehen

[Link: www.google.com...]

350 Digital Display  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:28:33am

Well Hell..I've only been involved in one Tee-Shirt Controversy in my whole life..And it's much more interesting than punk high school kids wanting to start a fight.. True Story..
So one night I went to the Club at Mare Island Navy Shipyard for drinks with friends..I wore this wicked red London Tee-Shirt..Had the coat of arms of England embossed in Black..Wicked ass shirt.. I ended up meeting a Marine at the Bar and his buddies.. We were doing shots and he told me there were flying out in the morning to England...And he loved my shirt...Cool.. Then he said that before the night was over..He would have my shirt..I said no..He bought another round..Oh yes I will he said....There was going to be an issue with Tee-shirts....( This Marine looked like a linebacker for the NFL) He got his buddy Marines together made a toast that we were going to swap shirts...There were cheers!No No No! I knew I was in trouble...I would soon lose my shirt and there were at least 5 Marines in agreement that it was a given...at a bar on Base
*Sir..I love this shirt*
So do I
*isn't there any way to change your mind?*
No
So yes my friends..To the cheers of the crowd we swapped Tee-shirts at the bar..And he walked out with my shirt on..And I came home in a tee-shirt soaked in Old Spice...

351 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:28:40am

re: #288 beekiller

I just don't get the point. I do find it crass. I completely support your right to do it, however.

If you came and did it outside of my house, I might get stroppy, since you'd know that I thought it was crappy behavior on your part. It's situational. I don't have a problem with Captain America, for example.

I feel like the flag is imbued with power based on common belief in what it represents, and I think that using it casually is just Marilyn Manson level silly.

352 Nimed  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:28:41am

re: #221 rwdflynavy

Hoops, first thing you need to know if you want the job...it is spelled Principal (because he is your pal, not your ple) ; )

Second thing, I can't see Irish Americans seeing a US flag on St. Paddy's day as an insult to their culture...

I used to like the Irish, and then I say this:

/

353 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:28:43am

The Students who wore the American flag, have the right to be an ass. The Principle has the right and power to say, 'that's not proper and you're just doing it to be an ass' (paraphrased)and make them change shirts or send them home. The other students have the right to be offended. And all the parents have the right to throw their hissy fits on either side.

Happily, (and maybe I'm taking a positive spin to the extreme here) no one was stabbed, shot, or otherwise badly hurt because a few people decided to be asses.

And if the parents are taking advantage of this to help promote their views, then that tells you a little something about the parents, doesn't it? and I can say with confidence, I'm glad they weren't my parents.

(Related but not directly)

I'm a big fan of assimilation and cultural melting pot, and I do think that no matter how afraid people are of 'the brown people' they're going to be just as american as everyone else after a generation of two. I mean, seriously, how is this immigration influx going to somehow play out so different than all the previous ones? We've had influxes from Central Europe, Southern Europe, Eastern Europe, China and all over asia, and now magically, America can't handle foreigners? Sure, the culture of America will shift a little, it has in all the previous immigrant 'invasions' do the nativists think all these foods in America all came from the UK and Germany? Let alone all the borrowed words in our lexicon? America is a heck of a lot more robust, and it is sure as heck not the calcified memories of some childhood haze.

What most people don't realize is that previously, people didn't care if you were 'legal' or 'illegal' if you did your job and you stayed out of trouble, people didn't care about you. Sure, America's always had a nativist streak, but if you'd lived in a community for 5 or 10 years, people are going to stop caring if you have a funny accent, or that you may not have a birth certificate that says 'born in the USA'. and your kids? please, for all intents and purposes, you were American even if you never had the paperwork or formal say so.

Now that we have technology and all the paper work to track people and follow someone everywhere they go, it doesn't matter if you're just trying to make a better life for yourself and any children you have. You're a dirty nasty evil illegal and we can find you and we can kick you out.

The illegal influx hasn't really changed, just our ability to find, harass and hound them has.

354 gamark  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:28:48am

re: #317 Cato the Elder

Oh I assumed as much. I'm no longer surprised at the false fronts many people put on in front of other people. None of which make me want to puke, though.

355 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:28:57am

re: #339 Mad Al-Jaffee

Definitely. Send me an email.

Done!

356 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:29:15am

re: #346 engineer dog

of course the real meaning of cinco de mayo in the u.s. is as one of those 'let's celebrate this important american ethnic group' days, such as st. pat's or columbus day

imho, we should do a better job of affirming the importance and dignity of every origin in this country on a particular day set aside for every group

Yes... it's called the 4th of July... been there, we done that.

(And I will repost something I mentioned above)

And in regards to national flags on holidays. I was recently married to a Hispanic for almost 15 year. EVERY one of those years we spent July 4th with her mom and dad, and about 400 other Hispanics and Whites in a Denver city park... and guess what, there were Mexican flags, American flags, novelty flags, biker club flags, special interest banners... a whole plethora of "signs and symbols" related to things people were proud of.

No, it wasn't a school setting, but it was a party atmosphere, lot's of booze and other recreational substances, and not once, in 14 years, did I ever see any confrontation about the numerous symbols flying around.

This principle should be teaching ALL the students a respect for each others culture, not trying to put one over the other on any given day.

357 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:29:28am

Time for work...have a nice day, Lizards.

358 ArchangelMichael  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:29:29am

re: #348 Soap_Man

My friend's Mexican grandpa once described it as "a holiday that is important enough to notice, but one nobody cares about that much. It's our Flag Day."

Or something like that. My Spanish isn't very good.

Similar to St. Patrick's Day in Ireland. It's basically a solemn religious holiday from what I understand. All the bars and pubs are CLOSED.

359 Nimed  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:29:59am

re: #352 Nimed

I used to like the Irish, and then I say this:


[Video]/

and then I saw this.
PIMF

360 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:30:01am

BBIAB...

361 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:30:14am

re: #343 Nimed

I assume you weren't calling me a racist?

362 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:30:59am

re: #358 ArchangelMichael

Similar to St. Patrick's Day in Ireland. It's basically a solemn religious holiday from what I understand. All the bars and pubs are CLOSED.

/You're making that up! How can a major Irish Holiday go hand in hand with making it harder for people to drink!

363 mikhailtheplumber  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:31:27am

re: #333 cliffster

Yeah - most people will tell you "Mexican Independence Day", which it isn't, and say when Mexico defeated Spain.. wrong country. Been a lot of flags flying over that stretch of land.

Actually, 5 de Mayo isn't even celebrated in Mexico as a big date. It's only a big deal for Mexican-Americans. Strange, innit?

364 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:31:47am

re: #324 rwdflynavy

You're a liar!

(Rollins was lead singer for Black Flag, on which that knockoff was based, and I saw him at Woodstock 94).

365 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:32:16am

re: #356 Walter L. Newton

But did you repost it, Walter?

I read it the first time. It's a defensible point of view. Should we all start double-posting now?

366 engineer cat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:32:52am

re: #322 darthstar

Now that Obama's president, the Republicans who used to make a big stink out of flag lapel pins don't wear them nearly as often as they used to (though the President does).

when clinton was president, there was a prominent right-wing bumpersticker reading "i love my country but i fear my government". no doubt who this was aimed at, yet, i thought, this is an american sentiment that i can endorse. after all, the constitution was based on a distrust of concentrated power, and in the 60s it was hippies like me who distrusted the government

but under W i found that this slogan had fallen out of favor with some

367 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:32:55am

re: #365 Obdicut

But did you repost it, Walter?

I read it the first time. It's a defensible point of view. Should we all start double-posting now?


//

368 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:33:10am

re: #343 Nimed

I trust you're happy that every election is now partly an arms race for who is More Proud of Being American (and who has The Most Adorable Family.)

It's not as strange as this tea-bag arms race, though...

Image: s-REPUBLICAN-VOTER-ENTHUSIASM-large.jpg

369 Nimed  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:33:32am

re: #361 Obdicut

I assume you weren't calling me a racist?

:O

Ops, forgot to delete that. I was going to say something to the effect that racist messages are protected speech, but then gave up on playing Captain Obvious.

370 DaddyG  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:33:34am

Now when my brother was told to take off his Farrah Fawcett T-Shirt in Jr. High School in 1976... that was an outrageous denial of freedom of expression.

371 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:33:35am

So then what comes next? We eject students from school for not wearing green on St. Patricks day or something? Because if they don't they might offend Irish Americans?

Perhaps all students should be required to wear red on May Day too?

I thought that one of the basic tenants on which the United States was built was freedom of expression?

It seems that perhaps in this case P.C. has jumped the shark, yes the Left can do it too, (in case you forgot).

372 mikhailtheplumber  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:34:25am

re: #336 ArchangelMichael

Yeah but Maximillian wasn't installed until after the Battle of Puebla when the French overran Mexico City and forced the legitimate Mexican government into exile.

True. Ultimately, though, Benito got his revenge and had Maximilian shot.

373 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:35:00am

re: #371 ausador

We have ejected students on St. Patrick's day for wearing orange, yes.

374 Civil Sam  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:35:09am

I'm sorry, I think it should be ok to wear the American flag any day of the year in America.

But I'm just simple like that. Maybe this could have been a teachable moment for the school to capitalize on. A lesson about how being "offended" is not excuse to act out and that begin an adult is show some self restraint.

Is it racist for the school to assume that students celebrating their Mexican heritage on May 5th will become violent if exposed to an expression of American heritage?

I would also assume that at least the majority of students are citizens, so it is really their heritage as well...

375 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:35:30am

re: #371 ausador

So then what comes next? We eject students from school for not wearing green on St. Patricks day or something? Because if they don't they might offend Irish Americans?

Perhaps all students should be required to wear red on May Day too?

I thought that one of the basic tenants on which the United States was built was freedom of expression?

It seems that perhaps in this case P.C. has jumped the shark, yes the Left can do it too, (in case you forgot).

Try wearing a Union Jack on Saint Patrick's day and tell us how it turns out for you...

376 Wishbone  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:35:46am

"Well now we know how the British feel on March 17th..."

No you bloody don't, mate........ But just so you do from now on, I'll let you in on a secret:

We don't give a toss 'cos we're too busy getting good and stoked.

Similar to St. Patrick's Day in Ireland. It's basically a solemn religious holiday from what I understand. All the bars and pubs are CLOSED.

Are you taking the piss? have you ever seen Dublin on Paddy's Day?

377 engineer cat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:36:15am

re: #347 Walter L. Newton

Yes... it's called the 4th of July... been there, we done that.

this is for all of us

we all came from somewhere, and on st. pat's day and columbus day irish and italian origins are celebrated. we hebrews get the same recognition when people take notice of one of our mysterious holy days

the pride that we mamericans take in our respective origins is persistant and pervasive, and "uniquely american"

378 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:36:32am

re: #374 Civil Sam

I'm sorry, I think it should be ok to wear the American flag any day of the year in America.

But I'm just simple like that. Maybe this could have been a teachable moment for the school to capitalize on. ..

Beer Summit!

379 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:36:54am

re: #376 Wishbone

Actually, I've subsumed St. Patty's day for a wholly different meaning that is far more important.... my anniversary. /so there! /

380 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:37:21am

re: #374 Civil Sam

Can you explain how the flag can both be an important symbol and something that you wear on a do-rag? I don't really get that. Isn't it really one or the other? If you use it is casually, how can it have any importance to it?

381 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:37:26am

re: #371 ausador

So then what comes next? We eject students from school for not wearing green on St. Patricks day or something? Because if they don't they might offend Irish Americans?

Perhaps all students should be required to wear red on May Day too?

I thought that one of the basic tenants on which the United States was built was freedom of expression?

It seems that perhaps in this case P.C. has jumped the shark, yes the Left can do it too, (in case you forgot).

Yikes! This incident was created because of the drama over the AZ legislation. Is that so hard to see? The principal was obviously afraid of a race riot.

Did you not read that the principal would allow the flags at any other time except this particular day? That is not inhibiting anyone's freedom of expression.

382 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:37:30am

On the Obama flag pin issue -- I criticized Obama during the campaign over this:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I really don't care very much whether politicians wear flag pins or not; it's not an issue for me at all. What I criticized were Obama's own statements on why he didn't wear the pin, which I thought were politically tone deaf and intended to appeal to the left wing. (Like a lot of Obama's campaign rhetoric.)

See, I can still criticize Obama.

383 DaddyG  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:37:43am

re: #346 engineer dog

of course the real meaning of cinco de mayo in the u.s. is as one of those 'let's celebrate this important american ethnic group' days, such as st. pat's or columbus day

imho, we should do a better job of affirming the importance and dignity of every origin in this country on a particular day set aside for every group

Casimir Pulaski Day

384 Wishbone  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:37:51am

re: #379 lawhawk

Drink twice as much or start earlier

No other option ;)

385 Ming  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:38:03am

Since it seems that the facts were that the students who wore the American flags did so in order to provoke other students, then yes, I agree with Charles; these students should have been sent home. But I think it's very important to emphasize that the REASON they were sent home was 100% related to PROVOCATION, and 0% related to the American flag. This seems like a detail, but I think it's crucially important to separate these two issues. So, any right-winger who bleats about this today should be told: "The students were NOT sent home for the American flags. They WERE sent home because they were provoking violence." After all, WHAT was provoking the violence? To answer "the American flags" would be an incomplete answer! What was provoking violence was: the manner in which the flags (which happened to be American flags) were FLAUNTED PROVOCATIVELY. This is IDENTICAL to, for example, flaunting the flag of some sports team provocatively.

386 DaddyG  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:38:21am

re: #373 Obdicut

We have ejected students on St. Patrick's day for wearing orange, yes.

They were lucky there wasn't a law suit on that count.

387 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:38:27am

re: #384 Wishbone

Drink twice as much or start earlier

No other option ;)

Have other people buy us our drinks? :)

388 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:38:32am

re: #379 lawhawk

St. Paddy's day was my Jewish grandfather's birthday and he'd dress up in green, go to Irish bars, and claim leprechauns were Jewish. He had the charm to pull it off in a good way.

389 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:39:05am

re: #363 mikhailtheplumber

Actually, 5 de Mayo isn't even celebrated in Mexico as a big date. It's only a big deal for Mexican-Americans. Strange, innit?

yeah, and as far as I know they don't get worked up about la chusa in mexico. Hell that might even just be the folks here in Texas. Serious stuff here though, at least when I was a teenager. I made a joke about La Chusa to my girlfriend's mother and she gave me a good scolding.

390 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:39:09am

re: #346 engineer dog

of course the real meaning of cinco de mayo in the u.s. is as one of those 'let's celebrate this important american ethnic group' days, such as st. pat's or columbus day

imho, we should do a better job of affirming the importance and dignity of every origin in this country on a particular day set aside for every group

Agreed.
But I can't recall the last time anyone was sent home from school for wearing a US flag emblem on St. Pat's day or Columbus day.

391 Wishbone  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:39:28am

re: #387 lawhawk

I like it........ but as long as you're drinking, it counts

392 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:39:31am

re: #263 rwdflynavy

I was the only white kid dumb enough to go to Gillette Middle School in Kingsville Texas on "Beat up Gringo" day. I did not wear a flag t-shirt either.

I'm glad you're still with us today.

393 engineer cat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:39:40am

re: #356 Walter L. Newton

This principle should be teaching ALL the students a respect for each others culture, not trying to put one over the other on any given day.

celebrating one's origins on a particular day set aside for that purpose is not the same as to "put one over the other"

394 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:39:52am

re: #388 Obdicut

St. Paddy's day was my Jewish grandfather's birthday and he'd dress up in green, go to Irish bars, and claim leprechauns were Jewish. He had the charm to pull it off in a good way.

Roses are Red
Violets are Bluish
A leprechaun told me
St. Patrick was Jewish.

395 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:40:05am

re: #388 Obdicut

It was a joke in our families that I'd wear a kilt, and our colors would be green and tartan... but we settled on a more traditional Jewish wedding (and chose our college colors instead - purple and gold)...

396 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:40:34am

re: #390 reine.de.tout

Agreed.
But I can't recall the last time anyone was sent home from school for wearing a US flag emblem on St. Pat's day or Columbus day.

There's no real antagonism between the US and the Irish, they never fought a war and they bond over a mutual fist shaking at the UK.

Like I said, I pity anyone who decides to try and properly conduct the experiment by wearing a Union Jack on March 17th... or even July 4th...

397 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:40:36am

re: #382 Charles

On the Obama flag pin issue -- I criticized Obama during the campaign over this:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I really don't care very much whether politicians wear flag pins or not; it's not an issue for me at all. What I criticized were Obama's own statements on why he didn't wear the pin, which I thought were politically tone deaf and intended to appeal to the left wing. (Like a lot of Obama's campaign rhetoric.)

See, I can still criticize Obama.

hehe... but you do know that the man is barely caught on camera without it now.

398 DaddyG  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:40:50am

re: #380 Obdicut

Can you explain how the flag can both be an important symbol and something that you wear on a do-rag? I don't really get that.

It's a NASCAR thing you wouldn't understand. /

Seriously- It bothers me too. I'm used to teaching Boy Scouts how to treat our national symbol with care and some yahoo wearing it as a sweat band does not impress.

399 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:41:24am

re: #390 reine.de.tout

Agreed.
But I can't recall the last time anyone was sent home from school for wearing a US flag emblem on St. Pat's day or Columbus day.

True, but there's no real tradition of harassing Irish people in that way, either. If a kid showed up on St. Pat's wearing a flag and acting belligerent about it, people would look at him and go, "Huh?"

The intent in this case was pretty clear, though.

400 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:41:42am

re: #271 Soap_Man

I think that means wearing an actual flag. Like as a cape or maybe a toga. I'm pretty sure wearing clothing with a picture of an American flag or with a stars and stripes design is perfectly fine.

I would like to report that at my high school (where Cinco de Mayo passed peacefully, with Mexican food and girls wearing red-white-and-green-striped eyeshadow, one of the teachers brought a pinata for his class. One of the boys from said class is now wearing the little pink horse's head as a hat. This was observed by me during yard duty today.

401 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:41:43am

re: #396 jamesfirecat

There's no real antagonism between the US and the Irish, they never fought a war and they bond over a mutual fist shaking at the UK.

Like I said, I pity anyone who decides to try and properly conduct the experiment by wearing a Union Jack on March 17th... or even July 4th...

March 17th maybe, but I have a hard time thinking anyone would get too upset over a union jack on July 4th.

402 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:41:54am

re: #388 Obdicut

St. Paddy's day was my Jewish grandfather's birthday and he'd dress up in green, go to Irish bars, and claim leprechauns were Jewish. He had the charm to pull it off in a good way.

Here's an article about a Jewish leprechaun.

403 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:41:56am

re: #272 JasonA

*points and laughs*

Right-Wing Extremists Take On Local Law Enforcement, Lose

I fought the law...

404 subsailor68  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:41:57am

re: #383 DaddyG

Casimir Pulaski Day

Hi DaddyG! LOL! Hey, we even gave him his own submarine:

Casimir Pulaski

As a submariner - that's a pretty nice honor there!

405 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:42:21am

re: #351 Obdicut

I just don't get the point. I do find it crass. I completely support your right to do it, however.

If you came and did it outside of my house, I might get stroppy, since you'd know that I thought it was crappy behavior on your part. It's situational. I don't have a problem with Captain America, for example.

I feel like the flag is imbued with power based on common belief in what it represents, and I think that using it casually is just Marilyn Manson level silly.

I respect your opinion and it really made me think. Thanks.

406 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:42:35am

re: #398 DaddyG

It's a NASCAR thing you wouldn't understand. /

Seriously- It bothers me too. I'm used to teaching Boy Scouts how to treat our national symbol with care and some yahoo wearing it as a sweat band does not impress.

Speaking as (former?) eagle Scout it is my pride to say that I have actually taken part in at least two flag retirement ceremonies and watched several more. They're actually quite moving events...

407 Wishbone  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:42:53am

Seems to me you lot are building yourselves a nice little culture of victimhood and perceived offense over there.

You'll just love it when being offended becomes subject to litigation.

Welcome to Britain 2010 :)

408 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:43:10am

re: #398 DaddyG

I saw an idiot wearing an American Flag T-shirt with the slogan "These Colors Don't Run".

And, well, the colors on the shirt had run. It had shades of pink for the stripes and vague light blue dots where the stars used to be, and a big purple smear where the red bars hit the blue field.

409 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:43:13am

re: #235 Cato the Elder

There was the recent news story about that group of parents from the church that posts signs outside its building saying "Islam Is of the Devil" sending their kids to school in clothing emblazoned with the same slogan. The kids were sent home, now the parents are suing - with the backing of the ACLU.

I wonder if the ACLU will be willing to take this case, too.

Yeah, those are Hate Church friends of Robert Spencer and Pam Geller, I don't think this is quite equivalent to that.

410 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:43:32am

re: #295 cliffster

Who here can describe what Cinco de Mayo celebrates? No googling.

Defeat of the French at La Puebla.

Next question?

411 engineer cat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:43:40am

huh. a slip of the fingers turned americans intore: #390 reine.de.tout

Agreed.
But I can't recall the last time anyone was sent home from school for wearing a US flag emblem on St. Pat's day or Columbus day.

well, it wouldn't make the same point as wearing a union jack would on st. pat's day

on the other hand, i think the principal was doing his job of being way oversensitive to possible trouble, since he would be doing a better job if he jumped the gun and nipped trouble in the bud. so, he probably figures that he might have been screwed either way

412 ArchangelMichael  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:43:40am

re: #376 Wishbone

"Well now we know how the British feel on March 17th..."

No you bloody don't, mate... But just so you do from now on, I'll let you in on a secret:

We don't give a toss 'cos we're too busy getting good and stoked.

Are you taking the piss? have you ever seen Dublin on Paddy's Day?

This is probably something new then because everyone I know who lived in Ireland at one time or another said it was a day to go to church, not the pub.

Researching this further has led me to the conclusion that, a party day that puts the Guinness beer company in the black for the year only started in the 90s which is why people I knew who lived there before that time would say otherwise.

413 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:43:41am

re: #407 Wishbone

Seems to me you lot are building yourselves a nice little culture of victimhood and perceived offense over there.

You'll just love it when being offended becomes subject to litigation.

Welcome to Britain 2010 :)

When do the polls close, by the way?

414 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:43:55am

re: #383 DaddyG

Casimir Pulaski Day

St. Patrick's day: Corned beef

Cinco de Mayo: deep fried ice cream and tacos

Columbus day (seriously? that's an Italian holiday?): Mmmm...let me keep looking at this menu a moment longer...

Chinese New Year: Sweet & Sour...

French holiday (quick, let's pick one out, just for the pastries)

What, exactly, were the Poles bringing to the table? Hurry up now, I haven't got all day, and the Hawaiians are at the door with some barbecue and pineapple...

415 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:44:02am

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

Defeat of the French at La Puebla.

Next question?

Uhhh, where did I put my keys?

416 subsailor68  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:44:36am

re: #408 Obdicut

I saw an idiot wearing an American Flag T-shirt with the slogan "These Colors Don't Run".

And, well, the colors on the shirt had run. It had shades of pink for the stripes and vague light blue dots where the stars used to be, and a big purple smear where the red bars hit the blue field.

LOL! That's what we down here in Texas call "irony".

(Probably had a Made in China tag in the back too.)

417 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:44:52am

re: #414 EmmmieG

St. Patrick's day: Corned beef

Cinco de Mayo: deep fried ice cream and tacos

Columbus day (seriously? that's an Italian holiday?): Mmmm...let me keep looking at this menu a moment longer...

Chinese New Year: Sweet & Sour...

French holiday (quick, let's pick one out, just for the pastries)

What, exactly, were the Poles bringing to the table? Hurry up now, I haven't got all day, and the Hawaiians are at the door with some barbecue and pineapple...


Bastille Day

418 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:45:36am

re: #414 EmmmieG

What, exactly, were the Poles bringing to the table?

Can't go wrong with Kielbasa and pierogies.

419 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:45:42am

re: #322 darthstar

Now that Obama's president, the Republicans who used to make a big stink out of flag lapel pins don't wear them nearly as often as they used to (though the President does).

I still think that Obama should have had the flag tattooed across his chest. When challenged about the pin, he could have ripped his shirt open and displayed it.

420 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:45:48am

re: #414 EmmmieG


What, exactly, were the Poles bringing to the table? Hurry up now, I haven't got all day, and the Hawaiians are at the door with some barbecue and pineapple...

Keilbasa? Pierogies?

421 Wishbone  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:46:29am

re: #412 ArchangelMichael

Then Eire got all that European funding, boomed where it used to bust and the Irish were a damn sight better off. Times move on, mate.

re: #413 JasonA

10pm

422 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:46:43am

I don't think anyone doesn't believe that the kids were being assholes. But I suppose as assholish as the kids' behavior was, this quote from Voltaire is appropriate:

"I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."

423 Civil Sam  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:46:46am

re: #380 Obdicut

You may find it distasteful, but that does not lessen the importance to the person wearing it. People typically like to display symbols they find meaningful or important. You see this with everyone from Christians (the cross), peaceniks (the peace sign), and so on an so forth.United States Marines emblazon the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor on most everything they can.

I would challenge you to tell one that they have somehow lessened the importance of that symbol.

424 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:47:03am

re: #421 Wishbone

Then Eire got all that European funding, boomed where it used to bust and the Irish were a damn sight better off. Times move on, mate.

re: #413 JasonA

10pm

Wow. I guess we Yanks just go to bed too damn early.

425 Digital Display  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:47:19am

OMG..The Stock Market is dropping like a rock.. I just saw 400 points drop in 5 minutes...

426 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:47:20am

re: #414 EmmmieG

bad jokes?

427 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:47:24am

Kielbasa it is. The Jews can bring some latkes, and then I think we're set, no?

(I love being an American, just for the food.)

428 Digital Display  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:48:01am

Almost a thousand points!

429 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:48:05am

re: #404 subsailor68

Now, if NJ could only get his bridge fixed/replaced before it collapses.

430 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:48:49am

re: #427 EmmmieG

Kielbasa it is. The Jews can bring some latkes, and then I think we're set, no?

(I love being an American, just for the food.)

Good call. I still haven't gathered the courage to try gefilte fish.

431 DaddyG  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:49:20am

re: #399 Charles

True, but there's no real tradition of harassing Irish people in that way, either. If a kid showed up on St. Pat's wearing a flag and acting belligerent about it, people would look at him and go, "Huh?"

The intent in this case was pretty clear, though.


I don't see anywhere in the article that the kids were "acting belligerent" other than wearing the American flag clothing. To me that makes a difference between what should be protected expression and inciting others.

432 webevintage  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:49:38am

Sorry I left the conversation.
My new iPod Touch is here... I have gone over to the Apple darkside.
Playing now.

Best part?
My teenager, MY TEENAGER, ended up paying for most of the cost as a Mother's Day present.
This time when they have a job, no real money responsibilities and a generous nature is quite enjoyable.
It will not last.....

433 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:49:53am

re: #423 Civil Sam

You may find it distasteful, but that does not lessen the importance to the person wearing it. People typically like to display symbols they find meaningful or important. You see this with everyone from Christians (the cross), peaceniks (the peace sign), and so on an so forth.United States Marines emblazon the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor on most everything they can.

I would challenge you to tell one that they have somehow lessened the importance of that symbol.

In the context of a high school environment, the students do not have an absolute right to freedom of expression. That's just how it is.

If this were a public Cinco de Mayo event and adult protesters showed up decked out in flag gear, nobody could or should tell them to stop as long as they weren't provoking violence.

But this happened in a high school.

434 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:50:14am

OT:
Stock market is tanking in a big way - down 8%+ following Greek government passing austerity plan, and ongoing debt crisis threatening to cause still more problems in Europe (and rebounding back to the US).

435 subsailor68  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:50:15am

re: #429 lawhawk

Now, if NJ could only get his bridge fixed/replaced before it collapses.


[Video]

That's criminal! From your link:

...was called the “most beautiful” steel bridge by the American Institute of Steel Construction the year it was finished.

Get it fixed guys!

436 cliffster  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:50:16am

re: #428 HoosierHoops

Almost a thousand points!

day ain't over yet

437 darthstar  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:50:21am

Holy crap! What the fuck is going on with the stock market today?

438 DaddyG  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:50:52am

re: #414 EmmmieG
They did save our bacon in the Revolution. :-)

439 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:51:10am

re: #423 Civil Sam

But how can it have importance to the person when it's just on a piece of clothing? And yes, I do think the Marine globe & anchor symbol is less revered and less of a unifying symbol than the US flag. I don't think there's any comparison.

If you are saying these people are using the US flag in just the same way 'peacenicks' use the peace sign, I agree with you. I'm of the opinion, of course, that the peace sign is basically meaningless tripe because people have overused it so much, so I don't think that really works well for your point.

440 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:51:11am

re: #429 lawhawk

Tappan Zee needs to replaced sooner than later, too.

441 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:51:24am

re: #434 lawhawk

OT:
Stock market is tanking in a big way - down 8%+ following Greek government passing austerity plan, and ongoing debt crisis threatening to cause still more problems in Europe (and rebounding back to the US).

As it should... it's Bush's fault.

442 Wishbone  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:51:52am

re: #422 darthstar

"I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."

Voltaire owes some serious royalties for that line.

443 Nimed  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:51:57am

re: #419 SanFranciscoZionist

I still think that Obama should have had the flag tattooed across his chest. When challenged about the pin, he could have ripped his shirt open and displayed it.

And the belly could spell "I pal around with Jesus" in Gothic typeface.

444 gamark  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:52:03am

re: #385 Ming

What was provoking violence was: the manner in which the flags (which happened to be American flags) were FLAUNTED PROVOCATIVELY.

Wow. How do you arrive at the conclusion that violence was being provoked? Do you think the hispanic kids are prone to violence? If you were an hispanic kid at that school, would the flag-wearing kids have made you feel like responding violently?

445 Digital Display  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:52:45am

re: #436 cliffster

day ain't over yet

Bounced back by 300 points in 3 minutes..Everybody is saying it's a real world panic..You only watch this live a couple of times in your life....Wow...Hundreds of points each way each minute..A real live panic...

446 subsailor68  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:52:52am

re: #437 darthstar

Holy crap! What the fuck is going on with the stock market today?

I know! Appears to be the economic situation in Greece, but this probably didn't help either:

Portugal and Spain have also seen their debt ratings downgraded.

447 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:52:52am

re: #430 JasonA

Good call. I still haven't gathered the courage to try gefilte fish.

It's really good if you have it with so much horseradish the horseradish is the only thing you can taste.

448 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:53:36am

re: #447 Mad Al-Jaffee

It's really good if you have it with so much horseradish the horseradish is the only thing you can taste.

What you're telling me is to eat a plate of horseradish.

449 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:53:53am

re: #434 lawhawk

Look at this consequence...
[Link: www.kitco.com...]

Days of instability in the price

450 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:54:29am

re: #431 DaddyG

I don't see anywhere in the article that the kids were "acting belligerent" other than wearing the American flag clothing. To me that makes a difference between what should be protected expression and inciting others.

But they were wearing a shirt that said "Fire!" in a crowded theater!
//

451 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:54:51am

re: #437 darthstar

The Greek government passed the austerity budget, but there are death rattles coming out about the ongoing debt crisis there and concerns that the crisis is far from over.

452 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:55:16am

re: #448 JasonA

What you're telling me is to eat a plate of horseradish.

Pretty much. With a little piece of gefilte fish.

453 bosforus  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:55:27am

I disagreed with my principal when she made my friend change his shirt that bore the following:
Image: dbrn813l.jpg
And I disagree with this principal's decision.
People in general need to lighten up.

454 celticdragon  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:56:12am

re: #80 schlagerman

Charles, I have to completely disagree with you. This may me a Mexican holiday, but the school is not in Mexico. Where are we as a society when students are told they can wear shirts with American flags only on certain days? Are we that PC? Cinco de Mayo is a Mexican heritage day, and it should be celebrated and those of Mexican descent should be proud. That being said, when we get to the point where we're telling American students that they cannot wear shirts with American flags to an American school on a given day, we've got problems.

I have to agree. If the school is going to send kids home who wear tee shirts with national flags...then send them all home, including those with Mexican flags.

455 lawhawk  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:56:41am

re: #435 subsailor68

The Pulaski is a pretty bridge, but it was obsolete from the moment it opened - too narrow by half, no breakdown lanes, and exit ramps were on the left lane, meaning that accidents were a given. Trucks were banned because of the narrow lanes.

A replacement span would probably run more than $1 billion.

456 sagehen  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:56:50am

re: #446 subsailor68

I know! Appears to be the economic situation in Greece, but this probably didn't help either:

Portugal and Spain have also seen their debt ratings downgraded.

Which might have impressed me more before I found out what lying scum the ratings agencies are, and whose bidding they're doing.

The hedge funds are sitting at their computers with big wide eyes and innocent expressions, while repayment terms automatically become more onerous as ratings are downgraded and Goldman Sachs' commissions just went up.

457 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:58:38am

re: #455 lawhawk

The Pulaski is a pretty bridge, but it was obsolete from the moment it opened - too narrow by half, no breakdown lanes, and exit ramps were on the left lane, meaning that accidents were a given. Trucks were banned because of the narrow lanes.

A replacement span would probably run more than $1 billion.

But it's such an "historical" span... waves of memories of heading down to the Jersey shore are opened up with just the mention of that bridge.

458 Randall Gross  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:58:59am

In the interview the kids moms are saying European kids mentioned to the assistant principle that there was going to "be some drama" over the kids wearing the flag shirts. So I'll take it back and say there were indicators, and the principle probably was right to remove the provocation since he had no indication where the trouble was going to come from.

459 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:01:31pm

Finally came to some thoughts on this:

As a mother, I would be in the principal's office, loaded for bear.

However, nobody in my family owns a flag shirt.

Also, I will throw out for your consideration the following hcpater from Stalky & Co, by Rudyard Kipling: The Flag of their Country

Just for discussion.


[Link: www.gutenberg.org...]

460 DaddyG  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:01:54pm

re: #433 Charles

In the context of a high school environment, the students do not have an absolute right to freedom of expression. That's just how it is.

Not absolute- but the Supreme court has ruled in several cases that Loco Parentis has limits and must be reasonably used when it comes to the constitutional rights of students. The question here is did the administration act reasonably or overstep their authority in the case of preserving a non-disruptive learning environment.

461 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:02:13pm

re: #453 bosforus

I disagreed with my principal when she made my friend change his shirt that bore the following:
Image: dbrn813l.jpg
And I disagree with this principal's decision.
People in general need to lighten up.

If a race riot broke out, the principal would probably have been fired.

These kids didn't just wear an American flag tshirt. They were wearing tshirts, shorts and shoes with flags or red, white and blue. It was a deliberate attempt to poke a stick in the eye of the kids celebrating another country's national holiday. That much is obvious. And after listening to the parents become so irate (it's only clothing for goodness sake), it's clear to me who was behind it.

Why do they chose May 5 to wear it? Do they wear this every day?
The principal did the right thing, but no decision would be a winner here. He was going to have to piss someone off.

462 celticdragon  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:02:32pm

re: #433 Charles

In the context of a high school environment, the students do not have an absolute right to freedom of expression. That's just how it is.

If this were a public Cinco de Mayo event and adult protesters showed up decked out in flag gear, nobody could or should tell them to stop as long as they weren't provoking violence.

But this happened in a high school.

Yes. it did...but there are still freedom of speech protections for students in California that are not subject to the (unfortunate!) "Bong Hits For Jesus" SCOTUS ruling on speech at or near schools.

Per The Volokh Conspiracy:

But California Education Code § 48950 deliberately gives students more protection than the First Amendment does. And the high school’s actions, if they were reported accurately, would violate that statute:

(a) School districts operating one or more high schools ... shall not make or enforce a rule subjecting a high school pupil to disciplinary sanctions solely on the basis of conduct that is speech or other communication that, when engaged in outside of the campus, is protected from governmental restriction by the First Amendment ....

(b) A pupil who is enrolled in a school at the time that the school has made or enforced a rule in violation of subdivision (a) may commence a civil action to obtain appropriate injunctive and declaratory relief as determined by the court. Upon motion, a court may award attorney’s fees to a prevailing plaintiff in a civil action pursuant to this section....

(d) This section does not prohibit the imposition of discipline for harassment, threats, or intimidation, unless constitutionally protected....

(f) The Legislature finds and declares that free speech rights are subject to reasonable time, place, and manner regulations.

463 youngtim  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:03:24pm

From Wikipedia:

"Cinco de Mayo (Spanish for "fifth of May") is a holiday held on May 5 that commemorates the Mexican army's unlikely victory over French forces at the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862, under the leadership of General Ignacio Zaragoza Seguín. It is celebrated primarily in the state of Puebla and in the United States. While Cinco de Mayo sees limited significance and celebration nationwide in Mexico, the date is observed nationwide in the United States and other locations around the world as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride. Cinco de Mayo is not Mexico's Independence Day, the most important national patriotic holiday in Mexico."

464 celticdragon  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:04:53pm

re: #461 marjoriemoon

If a race riot broke out, the principal would probably have been fired.

These kids didn't just wear an American flag tshirt. They were wearing tshirts, shorts and shoes with flags or red, white and blue. It was a deliberate attempt to poke a stick in the eye of the kids celebrating another country's national holiday. That much is obvious. And after listening to the parents become so irate (it's only clothing for goodness sake), it's clear to me who was behind it.

Why do they chose May 5 to wear it? Do they wear this every day?
The principal did the right thing, but no decision would be a winner here. He was going to have to piss someone off.

So? If you are going to sanction students for wearing American themed clothing...then you are going to have to sanction the numerous students wearing red, white and green that day as well. Are they not also trying to provoke a reaction by your logic?

465 gamark  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:06:20pm

re: #433 Charles

In the context of a high school environment, the students do not have an absolute right to freedom of expression.

There's no absolute right in any environment. The thing with a school is that the you have to balance the freedom of speech against the legitimate goal of avoiding distractions/disorders. There's a shitload of cases of kids being sent home or forced to turn shirts inside out. My 13yo daughter being one. There are very few of those cases which are slam-dunk black and white. You can easily raise reasonable arguments either way in most. Doesn't make sense to get too worked up about them.

466 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:08:25pm

re: #464 celticdragon

So? If you are going to sanction students for wearing American themed clothing...then you are going to have to sanction the numerous students wearing red, white and green that day as well. Are they not also trying to provoke a reaction by your logic?

One day, not every day. Any other day they would have been fine.

The Mexican colors would be appropriate to celebrate a Mexican holiday. I'm not following you.

What if a kid showed up wearing the flag of Germany on Holocaust Remembrance Day? Would the principal be remiss to tell him to take it off?

467 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:09:51pm

re: #375 jamesfirecat

Try wearing a Union Jack on Saint Patrick's day and tell us how it turns out for you...

In North Ireland or here? I don't think you would or should have a problem with it here. The vast majority of the students would not even have any idea what it meant or that it was supposed to be offensive.

Or perhaps you are one of the people who think we should take the time to instruct them on what their missing out on in the endless partisan/religious "woes of the Irish" just to help keep the hatred alive?

468 tradewind  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:13:27pm

re: #356 Walter L. Newton
So if a kid showed up on the fourth of July wearing the Union Jack, would he be sent home?//
.

469 tradewind  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:16:11pm

re: #458 Thanos
Indicators?
More like provocateurs.
Calling American high school children ' Europeans ' is redonkulous, and no school official should kowtow to the pot-stirrers.

470 Civil Sam  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:16:13pm

re: #439 Obdicut

Fine, you don't like someone else's form expression. My point is your feelings do not dictate the importance of a symbol or that symbol is displayed for others.

You are taking what I said out of context. Re-read what I wrote, please. I said the symbol is important to Marines. I in no way shape or form "ranked" any of the symbols I mentioned or making any such comparison.

471 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:19:05pm

I think it's obvious these kids did it simply for provocative reasons. I mean who the hell wears a bandanna anyhow these days. On the one hand, I feel it's their right to speech/expression but Charles did point out that it's the right of the administration to do their best to preserve order in the school as well. Don't know. One thing I am certain of is that the people cheering these kids on wouldn't have been as charitable if the roles were reversed.

472 BrainFromArous  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:19:13pm

Ming (& Charles),

What exactly are you saying?

That the Mexican-American kids at this school are so xenophobic, intolerant and violent that other kids "provoking" them by "flaunting" (that is, merely displaying) the flag of this country on "their" holiday would be enough to trigger a violent attack?

That's plainly what the principal thought.

But the kids with US flag-wear are the problem? Really? REALLY?

And please, let's not hear the usual PC twaddle about "diversity," m'kay? The insular, belligerent tribalism quoted below in the NBC piece is the polar opposite of "diversity."

But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday.

"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

It's been mentioned before here, but we must return to the question of why American flags would be so irksome? Do the kids celebrating this holiday see themselves as Mexican-Americans or simply Mexicans in America?

If the first... what's the problem - even if the kids with the US flag-wear were being brats about it? The celebrants are Americans; it's their flag too.

If the second... well, now we have quite a different problem, don't we? One going far beyond harmless heritage festivals or which flag is on a shirt.

473 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:19:39pm

re: #411 engineer dog

huh. a slip of the fingers turned americans into

well, it wouldn't make the same point as wearing a union jack would on st. pat's day

on the other hand, i think the principal was doing his job of being way oversensitive to possible trouble, since he would be doing a better job if he jumped the gun and nipped trouble in the bud. so, he probably figures that he might have been screwed either way

There is no doubt the principal was screwed either way.
That is not a job I would want to have.

474 celticdragon  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:19:56pm

re: #466 marjoriemoon

One day, not every day. Any other day they would have been fine.

The Mexican colors would be appropriate to celebrate a Mexican holiday. I'm not following you.

What if a kid showed up wearing the flag of Germany on Holocaust Remembrance Day? Would the principal be remiss to tell him to take it off?

Uh, which German Flag? There is an awful lot of clothing that uses the current FGR flag on it, including sports and outdoors wear, soccer shirts etc. The current FGR flag is not associated with Nazism, and I see no problem wearing it on any particular day. Now, wearing any shirt with a swasitka is risible and can (and should) be banned from an academic environment. Earlier versions of the German flag from the Weimar Republic, the War Ensign or Marine Jack are going to be de facto associated with German militarism and again be a problem with school discipline . Much earlier obscure flags are almost certainly not going to be found in apparel except as (rather cool looking) coats-of-arms and are not going to be obviously German in the first place unless you are an expert in the Thirty years War.

475 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:20:34pm

re: #468 tradewind

So if a kid showed up on the fourth of July wearing the Union Jack, would he be sent home?//
.

Absolutely since he obviously has Royalist sympathies and is therefore a traitor to the revolution. It might cause a fight at the school or something, best to suspend him and send him home rather than deal with any actual outbreaks of hostility. Punish the guy wearing the shirt rather than risk having to punish some guy who maybe can't deal with it appropriately.

///P.C. gone mad...

476 Civil Sam  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:20:57pm

re: #433 Charles

I haven't said anything to the contrary.

477 celticdragon  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:21:05pm

re: #468 tradewind

So if a kid showed up on the fourth of July wearing the Union Jack, would he be sent home?//
.

Heh! We have to deal with them at Guilford Courthouse every year, but they keep winning...

478 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:32:32pm

re: #474 celticdragon

Uh, which German Flag? There is an awful lot of clothing that uses the current FGR flag on it, including sports and outdoors wear, soccer shirts etc. The current FGR flag is not associated with Nazism, and I see no problem wearing it on any particular day. Now, wearing any shirt with a swasitka is risible and can (and should) be banned from an academic environment. Earlier versions of the German flag from the Weimar Republic, the War Ensign or Marine Jack are going to be de facto associated with German militarism and again be a problem with school discipline . Much earlier obscure flags are almost certainly not going to be found in apparel except as (rather cool looking) coats-of-arms and are not going to be obviously German in the first place unless you are an expert in the Thirty years War.

I didn't use swastika, because that would be offense at any time, so I picked the German flag, but I could have used the iron cross which isn't quite as inflammatory as a swastika, but would still be insulting on Holocaust Day.

These kids were being inflammatory. It was obvious from their parent's statements who could have at least expressed an apology for insulting someone else even if it wasn't the children's intention. But you see, it WAS their intention to use the flag as a club to ram it over the heads of the Mexican students. "Screw you, Mexican, and your Cinco de Mayo! We're Americans and damn proud." That makes me pretty ill.

This is Mexico, not Iran. This isn't the freakin Ayotollah. This is all about the AZ legislation and a bunch of white families who don't want THEM here.

479 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:34:09pm

re: #454 celticdragon

I have to agree. If the school is going to send kids home who wear tee shirts with national flags...then send them all home, including those with Mexican flags.

The more I hear about this, the more it appears it wasn't about who was wearing what flag. It was about the principal trying to keep order in the school knowing that some idiots were deliberately trying to provoke others, and probably not just with what they were wearing, I'd be willing to bet there were words whispered as well, if these kids are like the kids I was in high school with.

The whole thing is idiotic. If the kids of Mexican heritage want to celebrate that heritage, I have no problem with that.

If other kids want to provoke them rather than welcoming that Mexican heritage into the American melting pot, phooey on them (and their parents). We want the kids to feel like Americans? Welcome them, and whatever heritage they bring with them.

480 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:36:04pm

Wait a second...wouldn't a French flag be the provocative flag? Or am I thinking like a history major again.

481 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:39:03pm

re: #478 marjoriemoon

I didn't use swastika, because that would be offense at any time, so I picked the German flag, but I could have used the iron cross which isn't quite as inflammatory as a swastika, but would still be insulting on Holocaust Day.

These kids were being inflammatory. It was obvious from their parent's statements who could have at least expressed an apology for insulting someone else even if it wasn't the children's intention. But you see, it WAS their intention to use the flag as a club to ram it over the heads of the Mexican students. "Screw you, Mexican, and your Cinco de Mayo! We're Americans and damn proud." That makes me pretty ill.

This is Mexico, not Iran. This isn't the freakin Ayotollah. This is all about the AZ legislation and a bunch of white families who don't want THEM here.

This wasn't the swastika or the German flag in an American school, it was the American flag in an American school. I said above, though, I don't think it as about which flag was being worn where, and the whole incident was more about the principal trying to maintain order where there was a clear indication somebody wanted to provoke an incident.

And I think it's unfair to indict all the people of Arizona. Surely there are people in AZ who have no problem with "THEM" as you put it, being here. But they want "THEM" to be here legally.

A case can be made that we need to increase the quotas, make it easier and quicker for people from our southern neighbor to get here legally - but I don't know why it should be so difficult to understand when citizens want people to get here through legal means.

482 Cobdenite  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:40:32pm

Unfortunately, I must disagree on this. As much as I dislike FOX news and that coterie of wingnuts, there is a more basic issue here. If the Mexicans at this school are so offended by the American flag (on any day), why are they here to begin with? As much as their underlying motivations may have been nationalistic, xenophobic or anti-immigrant, those kids have a right to wear the flag of their country (in so far as it does not conflict with school dress codes) on any given day of the week. If there is a fundamental clash between the cultural meaning of the American flag and the 5th of May, the flag of the country that you are in trumps those considerations.

-SDT

483 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:45:15pm

re: #481 reine.de.tout

This wasn't the swastika or the German flag in an American school, it was the American flag in an American school. I said above, though, I don't think it as about which flag was being worn where, and the whole incident was more about the principal trying to maintain order where there was a clear indication somebody wanted to provoke an incident.

And I think it's unfair to indict all the people of Arizona. Surely there are people in AZ who have no problem with "THEM" as you put it, being here. But they want "THEM" to be here legally.

A case can be made that we need to increase the quotas, make it easier and quicker for people from our southern neighbor to get here legally - but I don't know why it should be so difficult to understand when citizens want people to get here through legal means.

If you're going to talk about legal v illegal, it's quite another subject, but I don't think these foolish parents who are raising foolish children who obviously do not embrace others of other cultures or even have the audacity to celebrate another person's culture, I don't think these parents give two hoots about legal v. illegal. In fact, the Mexican children at this school are legal right? They wouldn't be in the school otherwise, right? Then what the hell is the problem of these white parents? It's not about illegal or not illegal. It's about "I ain't celebrating your Mexican holiday. Take this flag and stick it."

The German reference was to make a point on how people can purposefully make others feel quite uncomfortable and unwelcome in their own country.

484 tnguitarist  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:48:00pm

This is going too far. I just can't see how this helps anyone. Personally, I would never wear a flag shirt or bandanna. Tacky. The principal should do something more productive like go after kids in Tapout shirts or polos with popped collars.

485 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:49:53pm

re: #483 marjoriemoon

If you're going to talk about legal v illegal, it's quite another subject, but I don't think these foolish parents who are raising foolish children who obviously do not embrace others of other cultures or even have the audacity to celebrate another person's culture, I don't think these parents give two hoots about legal v. illegal. In fact, the Mexican children at this school are legal right? They wouldn't be in the school otherwise, right? Then what the hell is the problem of these white parents? It's not about illegal or not illegal. It's about "I ain't celebrating your Mexican holiday. Take this flag and stick it."

The German reference was to make a point on how people can purposefully make others feel quite uncomfortable and unwelcome in their own country.

I agree, these children are here legally, and as such, we should welcome them, embrace them and whatever heritage they bring to us.

It was this statement in your 478 that made me start talking about legal vs illegal:

This is all about the AZ legislation and a bunch of white families who don't want THEM here.

486 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:50:01pm

re: #480 EmmmieG

Only with your burka. :0

487 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 12:58:54pm

re: #485 reine.de.tout

I agree, these children are here legally, and as such, we should welcome them, embrace them and whatever heritage they bring to us.

It was this statement in your 478 that made me start talking about legal vs illegal:

This is all about the AZ legislation and a bunch of white families who don't want THEM here.

I think it is. If we didn't have all this drama going on in Arizona, those kids and their families probably wouldn't have decided to make an issue out of it.

I wasn't talking about the residents of AZ not wanting Mexicans there. Although I'm sure there's that, but it sure looks like the parents and these kids in California have an issue with it. Or why wait for an Hispanic holiday to make a statement.

488 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:04:42pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

My hunch is that some kids started talking big, and the administrators thought they were heading off a fight.

It's astonishing that there are people on this thread who are willfully blind to this.

and I'm sure none of them has ever held a job as a school administrator or teacher!

I was expecting a whole bunch of HUFF HUFF AMERICA FUCK YEAH in this thread, and I was right

489 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:05:21pm

re: #487 marjoriemoon

I think it is. If we didn't have all this drama going on in Arizona, those kids and their families probably wouldn't have decided to make an issue out of it.

I wasn't talking about the residents of AZ not wanting Mexicans there. Although I'm sure there's that, but it sure looks like the parents and these kids in California have an issue with it. Or why wait for an Hispanic holiday to make a statement.

OK, I misread what you said, then, about the AZ folks.

At any rate - there are people who accept that "tribalism" is OK if you are Mexican, but unacceptable if you are a US citizen. I've seen people here mock those who are proud to be American, as engaging in "tribalism".

I take the tack that if we want people to be Americans, then we WELCOME them and embrace them and whatever they bring with them.

But there are folks who honestly believe, whether it's actually true or not, that our schools and institutions are OK with folks celebrating everything except being American. I don't think that's true. But there are those who do think it's true, who don't necessarily want to make a statement out of racism, but as a way of asserting their "American-ness". I think they were absolutely wrong in this case. But I don't think we can just say they're all racist.

490 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:05:56pm

re: #488 WindUpBird

It's astonishing that there are people on this thread who are willfully blind to this.

and I'm sure none of them has ever held a job as a school administrator or teacher!

I was expecting a whole bunch of HUFF HUFF AMERICA FUCK YEAH in this thread, and I was right

HUFF HUFF AMERICA FUCK YEAH!

And, so, WUB - why is that a problem, but HUFF HUFF MEXICO YEAH! isn't?

491 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:08:42pm

re: #7 JasonA

I disagree, Charles. If they have the right to wear it on any other day then they should have the right to wear it on May 5th. Their intentions are irrelevant to me.

I might despise the WBC for every time they've picketed a soldier's funeral, but no one's been able to stop them in the courts.

Agreed. The school was wrong to send the students home, and the fact that the school district did not endorse the school's actions speaks volumes.

492 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:19:03pm

re: #482 Cobdenite

Unfortunately, I must disagree on this. As much as I dislike FOX news and that coterie of wingnuts, there is a more basic issue here. If the Mexicans at this school are so offended by the American flag (on any day), why are they here to begin with? As much as their underlying motivations may have been nationalistic, xenophobic or anti-immigrant, those kids have a right to wear the flag of their country (in so far as it does not conflict with school dress codes) on any given day of the week. If there is a fundamental clash between the cultural meaning of the American flag and the 5th of May, the flag of the country that you are in trumps those considerations.

-SDT

The decision of the principal to keep order in his school when dipshit parents put their kids up to incendiary political stunts trumps your considerations, and any abstract American tribalism considerations, sorry, drive through

493 FullRoller  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:22:46pm

Last I checked, cinco de mayo was a holiday in Mexico. Also, thiese kids wear these clothes other days as well. Since when do we need to show support and special treatment for a holiday of another nation? Everyone here is supposed to American. Not afro-american, mexican-american, japanese-american, etc. What ever happened to the giant melting pot this country is supposed to be?

494 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:22:58pm

re: #490 reine.de.tout

HUFF HUFF AMERICA FUCK YEAH!

And, so, WUB - why is that a problem, but HUFF HUFF MEXICO YEAH! isn't?

I think this whole thing is what Charles and SFZ have said: this was a stunt by the parents of these kids, and the principal was trying to keep order and head off what could have been a fight, what could have resulted in injury. And it was 100% the right thing to do. And some people here are making it a "big brave question of free speech oh don't you love America enough?!?" sort of thing, which I find to be ridiculous.

And now those parents, having used their children as political tools for their statement, have recieved their rewards for the stunt, showing up on Laura (shiver) Ingraham's show, and on and on it goes. It seems pretty transparent to me. This wasn't some innocent thing.

495 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:24:23pm

re: #493 FullRoller

Last I checked, cinco de mayo was a holiday in Mexico. Also, thiese kids wear these clothes other days as well. Since when do we need to show support and special treatment for a holiday of another nation? Everyone here is supposed to American. Not afro-american, mexican-american, japanese-american, etc. What ever happened to the giant melting pot this country is supposed to be?

is this copypasted from Free Republic

496 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:43:59pm

re: #358 ArchangelMichael

Similar to St. Patrick's Day in Ireland. It's basically a solemn religious holiday from what I understand. All the bars and pubs are CLOSED.

That may have used to be true, but these days they dye the Liffey green. Not kidding.

497 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:45:47pm

re: #489 reine.de.tout

OK, I misread what you said, then, about the AZ folks.

At any rate - there are people who accept that "tribalism" is OK if you are Mexican, but unacceptable if you are a US citizen. I've seen people here mock those who are proud to be American, as engaging in "tribalism".

I take the tack that if we want people to be Americans, then we WELCOME them and embrace them and whatever they bring with them.

But there are folks who honestly believe, whether it's actually true or not, that our schools and institutions are OK with folks celebrating everything except being American. I don't think that's true. But there are those who do think it's true, who don't necessarily want to make a statement out of racism, but as a way of asserting their "American-ness". I think they were absolutely wrong in this case. But I don't think we can just say they're all racist.

Not to beat the hell out of this horse, but I don't think I get what you're saying. I don't think I was calling these kids racists or the families, but maybe I was! They certainly don't seem too tolerant, but I didn't mean to imply they were racists.

I think you can show your American pride at any time. It doesn't have to be on July 4, but it probably shouldn't be in the middle of a Cinco de Mayo celebration. I mean the message is pretty obvious isn't it?

498 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:46:24pm

re: #371 ausador

So then what comes next? We eject students from school for not wearing green on St. Patricks day or something? Because if they don't they might offend Irish Americans?

Perhaps all students should be required to wear red on May Day too?

I thought that one of the basic tenants on which the United States was built was freedom of expression?

It seems that perhaps in this case P.C. has jumped the shark, yes the Left can do it too, (in case you forgot).

I think that the administration mishandled this, but if you refer to their decision as 'PC', I think you are completely missing what happened in this case. This wasn't about political correctness, it was about trying to keep teenagers from clobbering each other.

499 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:46:26pm

re: #494 WindUpBird

I think this whole thing is what Charles and SFZ have said: this was a stunt by the parents of these kids, and the principal was trying to keep order and head off what could have been a fight, what could have resulted in injury. And it was 100% the right thing to do. And some people here are making it a "big brave question of free speech oh don't you love America enough?!?" sort of thing, which I find to be ridiculous.

And now those parents, having used their children as political tools for their statement, have recieved their rewards for the stunt, showing up on Laura (shiver) Ingraham's show, and on and on it goes. It seems pretty transparent to me. This wasn't some innocent thing.

I agree, it was a stunt, intended to provoke an incident (if you read what I've written you will see that I've come to that conclusion).

My point is, it's folks like you, who do have a problem with AMERICA FUCK YEAH, but not MEXICO FUCK YEAH, that provoke folks like those kids' parents into wanting to somehow show their American-ness.

And in provoking, you are no better than the idiots wearing the American flags to provoke an incident at that school.

500 Radical Rafe  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:46:30pm

re: #484 tnguitarist

OT to tnguitarist: I'm in Nashville and lots of my fellow players and roadies around here have been nearly wiped out. Were you affected by any of this?

501 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:48:08pm

re: #499 reine.de.tout

I agree, it was a stunt, intended to provoke an incident (if you read what I've written you will see that I've come to that conclusion).

My point is, it's folks like you, who do have a problem with AMERICA FUCK YEAH, but not MEXICO FUCK YEAH, that provoke folks like those kids' parents into wanting to somehow show their American-ness.

And in provoking, you are no better than the idiots wearing the American flags to provoke an incident at that school.

AMERICA FUCK YEAH seems a lot more appropriate in Iran's face, or North Korea's face, but Mexico? Like I say, if it wasn't for the hubbub in AZ, then this probably wouldn't be an issue.

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:50:42pm

re: #415 cliffster

Uhhh, where did I put my keys?

They're in your other pants.

503 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:50:57pm

re: #497 marjoriemoon

Not to beat the hell out of this horse, but I don't think I get what you're saying. I don't think I was calling these kids racists or the families, but maybe I was! They certainly don't seem too tolerant, but I didn't mean to imply they were racists.

I think you can show your American pride at any time. It doesn't have to be on July 4, but it probably shouldn't be in the middle of a Cinco de Mayo celebration. I mean the message is pretty obvious isn't it?

Well, when you said they don't want THEM here, I took it as you thought they were racist. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

At any rate - I've already said we should welcome and embrace those who are here and whatever heritage they bring with them including these kids. I don't know what else to say, or how much clearer I can be on that.

The problem I was describing was shown fully-fledged by WUB. It seems to drive him crazy when anybody shows pride in the US.
NOT that the parents of or the kids wearing the US flag emblems were doing that, the more I read, the more I think they were deliberately trying to provoke an incident, and the principal did the only thing he could, and should be SUPPORTED by his school board.

That doesn't mean that any show of pride in the US is something awful to be avoided. Not that YOU said that. But others here seem to have that attitude.

504 rnf  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:51:03pm

I share the outrage. If other students get out of line at a show of American patriotism, then it is the principal's job to control *those* students. Calling it incendiary is equivalent to granting a "heckler's veto".

505 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:51:59pm

re: #501 marjoriemoon

AMERICA FUCK YEAH seems a lot more appropriate in Iran's face, or North Korea's face, but Mexico? Like I say, if it wasn't for the hubbub in AZ, then this probably wouldn't be an issue.

Could be.
But WUB seems to have a problem with it at any time.

506 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:55:10pm

re: #505 reine.de.tout

Could be.
But WUB seems to have a problem with it at any time.

Damn liberals :p

507 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:55:17pm

re: #444 gamark

Wow. How do you arrive at the conclusion that violence was being provoked? Do you think the hispanic kids are prone to violence? If you were an hispanic kid at that school, would the flag-wearing kids have made you feel like responding violently?

I've dealt with this specific conflict in the past, and I can tell you that out of, like, four hundred Latino kids at the school, it's not impossible that there might have been, say, three that would start a fight over it.

508 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:56:31pm

re: #458 Thanos

In the interview the kids moms are saying European kids mentioned to the assistant principle that there was going to "be some drama" over the kids wearing the flag shirts. So I'll take it back and say there were indicators, and the principle probably was right to remove the provocation since he had no indication where the trouble was going to come from.

Does "European" mean white, or is there an exchange student group involved?

509 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:58:53pm

re: #478 marjoriemoon

I didn't use swastika, because that would be offense at any time, so I picked the German flag, but I could have used the iron cross which isn't quite as inflammatory as a swastika, but would still be insulting on Holocaust Day.

These kids were being inflammatory. It was obvious from their parent's statements who could have at least expressed an apology for insulting someone else even if it wasn't the children's intention. But you see, it WAS their intention to use the flag as a club to ram it over the heads of the Mexican students. "Screw you, Mexican, and your Cinco de Mayo! We're Americans and damn proud." That makes me pretty ill.

This is Mexico, not Iran. This isn't the freakin Ayotollah. This is all about the AZ legislation and a bunch of white families who don't want THEM here.

Freaking Morgan Hill. Nothing good ever comes out of that place!

510 insanity police  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:58:55pm

A little first amendment vs. high school case law is probably warranted:

"Students do not, the Court tells us in Tinker vs. Des Moines, "shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door." But it is also the case that school administrators have a far greater ability to restrict the speech of their students than the government has to restrict the speech of the general public. Student speech cases require a balancing of the legitimate educational objectives and need for school discipline of administrators against the First Amendment values served by extending speech rights of students.

In Tinker, perhaps the best known of the Court's student speech cases, the Court found that the First Amendment protected the right of high school students to wear black armbands in a public high school, as a form of protest against the Viet Nam War. The Court ruled that this symbolic speech--"closely akin to pure speech"--could only be prohibited by school administrators if they could show that it would cause a substantial disruption of the school's educational mission."

If the Court determined that students could wear black armbands to protest the Vietname war, then I find it extremely doubtful that schools can appropriately ban american flag t-shirts.

Honestly, I find it offense to think that an American flag under any circumstances is improper. Maybe I'm old school, but aren't there American flags all over high schools in America? Are we supposed to cover them up?

511 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 1:59:49pm

re: #507 SanFranciscoZionist

I've dealt with this specific conflict in the past, and I can tell you that out of, like, four hundred Latino kids at the school, it's not impossible that there might have been, say, three that would start a fight over it.

Also not impossible that the kids wearing the US flag emblems did a bit of a whisper whisper whisper sort of thing, to deliberately try to provoke those they knew could be easily provoked.

Principal did the right thing.

512 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:00:04pm

re: #508 SanFranciscoZionist

Does "European" mean white, or is there an exchange student group involved?

That question seems steeped in optimism....

513 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:00:37pm

re: #506 marjoriemoon

Damn liberals :p

heh.
No.
damn WUB (in this case).

514 Radical Rafe  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:00:54pm

re: #433 Charles

Correct, Charles. The parameters within which they do have freedom expression are defined by the dress code, which is usually developed and voted upon some combination of parents and school system officials. American Flag t-shirts: not prohibited by the dress code = these (flag-wearing) kids were right = Mexican kids and school principal were wrong.

What do you think would happen if there were to be a vote on a dress-code line item banning the American flag from being displayed or worn on 5/5?

(Awaiting the downdings...)

515 windsagio  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:02:08pm

re: #514 Radical Rafe


(Awaiting the downdings...)

since you asked so nicely :D

516 insanity police  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:03:06pm

Maybe I'm biased because of my icon? =)

517 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:05:14pm

re: #511 reine.de.tout

Also not impossible that the kids wearing the US flag emblems did a bit of a whisper whisper whisper sort of thing, to deliberately try to provoke those they knew could be easily provoked.

Principal did the right thing.

I'm not sure about the decision, but as regards the whispers, I'm absolutely sure you're right.

518 Silvergirl  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:05:46pm

I've only read the first 50 or 60 comments so I don't know if any of what I'm going to say has been said, but I just have a short time, so . . .

I've worked in schools for years--elementary, middle, and high school level. When a student is asked to turn a t-shirt inside out, it's because it's violating one of the dress code standards--usually tobacco and alcohol. You know, if it's promoting these things or has a big marijuana leaf or whatever. I doubt it's stated that American flags aren't in the dress code at this school. Often bandannas or other headgear aren't allowed, so I can see they should have removed those when asked.

If this took place in a prison or a street riot where people are armed and dangerous, I can understand keeping the students safe by nipping something in the bud before bad feelings erupt. This is a school, and if a principal thinks he has to ask students to remove a U.S. flag shirt to keep the peace, that principal does not belong in the job. I'm happy to see the school district does not concur with the school.

There are all kinds of "Spirit Days" at school. Pajama Day, Crazy Hat Day, School Colors Day, Red, White, and Blue Day. etc. If a student doesn't want to play--doesn't show up in pajamas or school colors, he is not forced to participate. If he wears a shirt of a rival team to the school on school colors day (I saw it happen), the other kids jeered and some laughed along with the joke, but the school admin did not require him to remove offending garments.

519 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:06:45pm

re: #512 wrenchwench

That question seems steeped in optimism...

A person can hope.

520 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:07:36pm

re: #509 SanFranciscoZionist

Freaking Morgan Hill. Nothing good ever comes out of that place!

I forgot you were a neighbor.

Yea, I guess I did call them racists. Ah well if the shirt fits.... Watching the video of the parents was pretty creepy.

521 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:07:53pm

re: #514 Radical Rafe

Correct, Charles. The parameters within which they do have freedom expression are defined by the dress code, which is usually developed and voted upon some combination of parents and school system officials. American Flag t-shirts: not prohibited by the dress code = these (flag-wearing) kids were right = Mexican kids and school principal were wrong.

What do you think would happen if there were to be a vote on a dress-code line item banning the American flag from being displayed or worn on 5/5?

(Awaiting the downdings...)

This wasn't about dress code, or behavior for any other day of the year. This wasn't a policy decision, it was an on-the-spot damage control choice. I think it may have been the wrong choice, but it's not clear-cut.

522 Radical Rafe  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:11:16pm

re: #521 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm with you, but why couldn't damage control involve telling the Mexican kids to take a hike and mind their own business?

523 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:11:35pm

re: #521 SanFranciscoZionist

This wasn't about dress code, or behavior for any other day of the year. This wasn't a policy decision, it was an on-the-spot damage control choice. I think it may have been the wrong choice, but it's not clear-cut.

I will also say that I do not think there would have been an issue if any of these boys had just worn his flag tee because it was the one on top in his drawer.

And the parents lost any credibility with me once they landed on Laura Ingraham's show a day later, talking about 'European' students. If this had happened to my kid, I would have had some issues (with both the kid and the school), but you would not catch me on a freaking talk show the next day, especially when the district made it clear they did not agree with the principal.

524 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:11:35pm

re: #518 Silvergirl

It was a vice principal, and I think they should be allowed some discretion.

525 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:13:10pm

re: #521 SanFranciscoZionist

This wasn't about dress code, or behavior for any other day of the year. This wasn't a policy decision, it was an on-the-spot damage control choice. I think it may have been the wrong choice, but it's not clear-cut.

No it's not clear. He was trying to head off a fight which he foresaw coming from one direction or the other. The fight never happened so we don't know if it would have happened. Maybe the kids would have just ignored each other. We don't know. The fact that this principal made this decision tells me there have been tensions at this school.

526 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:13:21pm

re: #522 Radical Rafe

I'm with you, but why couldn't damage control involve telling the Mexican kids to take a hike and mind their own business?

I've said several times that I think the idea of this exercise was to prevent a fight from breaking out between students over the shirts.

Telling 'the Mexican kids' to 'take a hike' probably wouldn't have gotten us there.

Now, I think there were some options the principal didn't explore. Or, maybe he did, and this was where we ended up.

527 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:13:35pm

re: #522 Radical Rafe

I'm with you, but why couldn't damage control involve telling the Mexican kids to take a hike and mind their own business?

You mean, the 40% of the school's students that are Hispanic? They should take a hike?

528 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:14:38pm

re: #524 wrenchwench

It was a vice principal, and I think they should be allowed some discretion.

Really? Why is it the vice principal always has the hard job... if I'm recalling my teen years.

529 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:14:40pm

re: #527 wrenchwench

You mean, the 40% of the school's students that are Hispanic? They should take a hike?

Well, that's always a nice field trip, but if it was only for the Latino kids, I think that would definitely spark racial tensions.

/

530 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:15:01pm

re: #523 SanFranciscoZionist

I will also say that I do not think there would have been an issue if any of these boys had just worn his flag tee because it was the one on top in his drawer.

And the parents lost any credibility with me once they landed on Laura Ingraham's show a day later, talking about 'European' students. If this had happened to my kid, I would have had some issues (with both the kid and the school), but you would not catch me on a freaking talk show the next day, especially when the district made it clear they did not agree with the principal.

That's the thing that strikes me as weird about this whole thing. The parents going on Ingraham. It just seems as a desperate for publicity move. Now, from what I am seeing I don't think the school was totally right or wrong for that matter but it just seems that these parents clearly have an agenda.

531 Gus  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:15:22pm

Perhaps it was their 1st Amendment right to wear these t-shirts but let's be serious for a moment. This wasn't a display of patriotism it was an act of defiance and incitement not directed at Mexico or Mexicans per se but one directed at the Mexican-American student body that makes up a significant portion of the student body. Call it a hunch but I suspect there's more to this story then we're being told regarding this small group of students and the vice-principal based his actions on their history.

532 Silvergirl  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:15:45pm

re: #524 wrenchwench

It was a vice principal, and I think they should be allowed some discretion.

The buck stops at the Principal's desk. They were ordered to the principal's office after the VP asked them to remove the shirts.

533 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:15:48pm

re: #530 HappyWarrior

That's the thing that strikes me as weird about this whole thing. The parents going on Ingraham. It just seems as a desperate for publicity move. Now, from what I am seeing I don't think the school was totally right or wrong for that matter but it just seems that these parents clearly have an agenda.

If the parents had an agenda and used their kids to push it, the school was totally right.

534 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:16:16pm

re: #528 marjoriemoon

Really? Why is it the vice principal always has the hard job... if I'm recalling my teen years.

One of the vice principals at my high school was Mr. Buster. At least he had the name for the job. (The other one was Mr. Fisk, until he got caught shoplifting at Gemco.)

535 tomg51spence  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:16:33pm

I'm concerned it could lead to no cross necklaces during Ramadon

536 windsagio  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:17:20pm

re: #535 tomg51spence

lol really?

537 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:17:45pm

re: #532 Silvergirl

The buck stops at the Principal's desk. They were ordered to the principal's office after the VP asked them to remove the shirts.

The principal should also be allowed some discretion. At the end of the day, the kids were allowed back, with the t-shirts on. I think the "end of the day" part is what made it feasible.

538 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:17:55pm

re: #530 HappyWarrior

That's the thing that strikes me as weird about this whole thing. The parents going on Ingraham. It just seems as a desperate for publicity move. Now, from what I am seeing I don't think the school was totally right or wrong for that matter but it just seems that these parents clearly have an agenda.

Wow. I didn't know any of this. Makes me feel better about my decision in this case. I'm usually on the side of freedom of expression at most any cost.

539 Radical Rafe  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:17:57pm

re: #527 wrenchwench

If the sight of an American classmate wearing an American flag in an American classroom bothers them, damned skippy they can take a hike. Crisis aversion is one thing, but I think the 40%ers there could use that little dose of character development that says "The rules here say they can wear the flag. The rules don't say you have to approve it."

540 Silvergirl  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:18:28pm

re: #533 reine.de.tout

If the parents had an agenda and used their kids to push it, the school was totally right.

By high school, kids have their own agenda. Even earlier. If those kids didn't want to wear those shirts, no parent is gonna make 'em. Take it from one who knows--I have abandoned clothes I didn't want to wear in the bushes on the way to school and continued on in the ones underneath--the ones I wanted to show up in! :-)

541 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:19:20pm

re: #533 reine.de.tout

If the parents had an agenda and used their kids to push it, the school was totally right.

Yeah, the whole thing just strikes me as weird as hell honestly. I mean I see that they were wearing bandannas. My high school didn't allow any kind of headgear. Hell, I remember getting crap for putting on my winter hat immediately as soon as I got out of classes. I never got that rule. Funny thing was though it turned out my middle school principal is regarded as the architect of the no hat rule that we see in a lot of schools today.

542 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:20:17pm

re: #539 Radical Rafe

If the sight of an American classmate wearing an American flag in an American classroom bothers them, damned skippy they can take a hike. Crisis aversion is one thing, but I think the 40%ers there could use that little dose of character development that says "The rules here say they can wear the flag. The rules don't say you have to approve it."

Ack, this wasn't just any old day. You do realize this. It was during a celebration of a Mexican holiday. In fact, they ARE allowed to wear it "any old day."

543 Gus  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:21:27pm

re: #537 wrenchwench

The principal should also be allowed some discretion. At the end of the day, the kids were allowed back, with the t-shirts on. I think the "end of the day" part is what made it feasible.

They were allowed back in? Thought I read that. Well, there you go, it wasn't the end of the world after all is said and done.

I wonder how long the outrage will last though and how many seconds before they're blaming Obama for this.

544 tomg51spence  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:21:34pm

re: #536 windsagio
No concern. But it is analogous. No open dissent to my celebration.

545 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:21:50pm

re: #539 Radical Rafe

I guess you should become a principal so you can make better decisions than those at the job now.

Crisis aversion would take precedence if I were principal.

546 Silvergirl  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:22:07pm

re: #537 wrenchwench

The principal should also be allowed some discretion. At the end of the day, the kids were allowed back, with the t-shirts on. I think the "end of the day" part is what made it feasible.

That's why the whole thing is not an outrage. It still doesn't mean it was handled in the best way.

547 Radical Rafe  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:22:42pm

re: #542 marjoriemoon

It's any old day on the American calendar. And judging from some of the comments on this very thread, it ain't like it's sacred down there either.

And just for the record, assuming schools had classes on July 4, if a bunch of Mexican kids wanted to wear Mexican flag T-shirts to school, I'd say "let them."

548 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:23:13pm

re: #544 tomg51spence

The analogy falls down at comment #95.

549 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:24:07pm

re: #535 tomg51spence

I'm concerned it could lead to no cross necklaces during Ramadon

Unlikely to become a problem in Morgan Hill. Also, it can't 'lead' to anything, it was a one-off call by a school administrator, and not approved of by his district.

550 What, me worry?  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:27:13pm

re: #547 Radical Rafe

It's any old day on the American calendar. And judging from some of the comments on this very thread, it ain't like it's sacred down there either.

And just for the record, assuming schools had classes on July 4, if a bunch of Mexican kids wanted to wear Mexican flag T-shirts to school, I'd say "let them."

That's right. Screw the Mexicans and their stupid holiday. If I want to wear my colors, I'll show them to wave the Mexican flag!!!

And that's why we're here.

You must be a whiz at race relations!

551 Silvergirl  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:27:22pm

re: #543 Gus 802

They were allowed back in? Thought I read that. Well, there you go, it wasn't the end of the world after all is said and done.

I wonder how long the outrage will last though and how many seconds before they're blaming Obama for this.

The way I read it, they were allowed back today (Thursday) and were probably out for the rest of Cinco de Mayo. Doesn't matter. Not an outrage because no suspensions were made, yet as I said before, not handled well.

552 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:27:40pm

re: #546 Silvergirl

That's why the whole thing is not an outrage. It still doesn't mean it was handled in the best way.

A school administrator, faced with a potentially volatile situation, having to make a snap decision -
Sheesh.
That is not a job I would want to have.
Particularly if my district wouldn't back me up (even if it meant a private conversation later).

How to school officials run a school when their decisions are being second-guessed by folks removed from the situation as it is happening?

553 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:30:14pm

Come on out and comment!

expat.gaijin

Karma: 0
Registered since: Nov 21, 2008 at 6:51 pm
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554 tomg51spence  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:31:15pm

re: #549 SanFranciscoZionist
I agree it does not not lead to anything. I am not concerned with flags, so I was trying to think in terms of something that would matter more to me if it were controlled.
Thanks for comments. Heading away now. though.

555 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:31:20pm

re: #553 wrenchwench

Come on out and comment!

Stealth downdinger?

556 Gus  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:32:09pm

re: #551 Silvergirl

The way I read it, they were allowed back today (Thursday) and were probably out for the rest of Cinco de Mayo. Doesn't matter. Not an outrage because no suspensions were made, yet as I said before, not handled well.

Yeah. Pretty much.

Everything spreads like a wildfire in this age of the internet. Too bad it wasn't around during my junior high and high school days. I'd have daily grievances to post.

557 Silvergirl  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:32:40pm

re: #552 reine.de.tout

A school administrator, faced with a potentially volatile situation, having to make a snap decision -
Sheesh.
That is not a job I would want to have.
Particularly if my district wouldn't back me up (even if it meant a private conversation later).

How to school officials run a school when their decisions are being second-guessed by folks removed from the situation as it is happening?

Hmm. It's almost like states' rights vs. a strong central gov't.

558 Gus  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:34:58pm

Errands to run...bbl.

559 wrenchwench  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:36:55pm

re: #555 reine.de.tout

Stealth downdinger?

Up and down. Geez, it's not like we bite...very hard.

560 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 6, 2010 2:37:53pm

re: #559 wrenchwench

Up and down. Geez, it's not like we bite...very hard.

And when bitten, we just need to be tough and take it.
OR, rethink our position, if we can't 'splain it.

561 junodavid  Thu, May 6, 2010 3:00:34pm

re: #550 marjoriemoon

re: #547 Radical Rafe


That's right. Screw the Mexicans and their stupid holiday. If I want to wear my colors, I'll show them to wave the Mexican flag!!!

And that's why we're here.

You must be a whiz at race relations!

This isn't a big holiday for Mexicans or Mexico, only for Americans and only because it became a drinking holiday. And when did it become not OK to want to represent your baseball team, country or the car you drive. I feel for the Principal who had to make a decision but really, what kind of a Principal is he if he can't keep order in his school, that he would have to worry about violence over a flag shirt.

Now I would think differently if the American Flag students went out of their way to antagonize the students celebrating Cinco de Mayo.

562 Obdicut  Thu, May 6, 2010 3:02:33pm

re: #470 Civil Sam

Fine, you don't like someone else's form expression. My point is your feelings do not dictate the importance of a symbol or that symbol is displayed for others.

T I didn't attempt to dictate squat.

563 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 6, 2010 3:22:02pm

Late to the game but I found this quite interesting, almost of disturbance in the force proportions:

"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

Someone needs to explain to Annicia what America is all about. Freedom of speech means that if you wanted to wear a t-shirt with a Mexican flag on it, even on the Forth of July, you have that right. It means that if you want to wear the American flag on any day of the year, you have that right. The only people being disrespectful are Annicia and the school administrator who have apparently lost their minds.

Top Comment at Digg with +630 and I actually AGREE!
I need to start some meds.

564 gadlaw  Thu, May 6, 2010 3:28:54pm

Cinco de Mayo is a social holiday here in the United States, not a national holiday or a day of remembrance or any sacred religious holiday. It's a drinking holiday like Mardi Gras is a holiday in the United States - it's a Drinking Holiday! This crap about offending some group of Americans here by wearing American Themed clothing is ridiculous. Its America, the United States of America - we don't take our flag down because Mexico has a holiday or France or Italy or Ireland has a holiday. In fact - those groups as much as they celebrate their heritage here also celebrate their American heritage. Columbus Day has Italian and American flags flying, St. Patrick's Day has Irish and American flags flying, it's only here where we have a group of people hostile to America that we have the fear of 'offending' them by showing our American Flags on their drinking holiday. That's all you need to know here, and it's all the more reason to fly those flags and wear those cloths on the Mexican drinking holiday. If you don't like or are offended by American flags in America then I've a got a door for you and don't let your butt hit it on the way out.

565 russiankulak  Thu, May 6, 2010 3:42:08pm

It's high time all school districts publish a list of national holidays around the world. Then post what may or may not be worn on those days. Problem solved... we don't want to get anyone of any national heritage angry at anyone. I know myself I've been quite angry when in Germany and seeing Germans wearing their flag on July 4th... I mean... for them to disrespect me in that way was really awful! And while in the USA I've seen people deliberately wearing the US colors on Medoviy Spas - a Russian holiday in August... this cannot continue!
I am sure the school principal ensured the US colors did not fly over the school that day.... if only this were the rule for August 14 Honey Day also.

566 Radical Rafe  Thu, May 6, 2010 3:42:13pm

re: #550 marjoriemoon

I'm a whiz at all relations rooted in fairness and common sense.

You don't like my shirt? Hate it for you.

I don't like your shirt? Hate it for me.

567 Radical Rafe  Thu, May 6, 2010 3:46:16pm

re: #545 wrenchwench

Fortunately the principals in my area have exhibited good sense when it comes to this stuff.

They'd tell the American flag-wearing kids "the shirts can stay. Don't push it or else."

They'd tell the Mexican kids "If you don't like American flag shirts, don't wear one. Get over it. And don't push it or else."

568 changomo  Thu, May 6, 2010 3:58:34pm

I got to disagree here Chuck,

as long as the kids were not acting hostile, they should be aloud to wear the American flag shirts. Free speech is a cornerstone of this country, and if I left America to Mexico - the last thing I would do is be offended if somebody wore a Mexican flag shirt on 4th of July

569 Athens Runaway  Thu, May 6, 2010 4:31:21pm

re: #549 SanFranciscoZionist

Unlikely to become a problem in Morgan Hill. Also, it can't 'lead' to anything, it was a one-off call by a school administrator, and not approved of by his district.

But approved of by Charles, and anyone who disagrees is a Naaaaaazi.

570 changomo  Thu, May 6, 2010 4:56:22pm

Looking at the link that Charles Posted:

[Link: www.nbcbayarea.com...]

One of the boys wearing the American Flag clothing was part Hispanic too, (viewing the video) - and no where in the video or article does it say that the 4 boys had any past history of misconduct - nor did it mention any inappropriate behavior.

Again, some people feel like it's a human right not to be offended, I'm sorry - but as an American that believes in free speech - the American Flag clothing on ANY day in America should be never censored.

To Mexicans offended by the American flag in America on a Mexican holiday, I say show some humility, the fact is you/your family left Mexico voluntarily, I assume to live a better life. Why did you leave Mexico? The majority is due to America values having have created a society with more opportunity and the chance to improve your lot in life.

Again, if I immigrated to Mexico because America became run by drug cartels, and unemployment was rampant - the last thing I would do on 4th of July in Mexico City is be offended by a kid wearing a Mexican flag shirt (and minding his business, not bothering me on top of that)

571 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:36:46pm

re: #569 Athens Runaway

And with that, you can just piss right off.

572 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:41:27pm

re: #567 Radical Rafe

Fortunately the principals in my area have exhibited good sense when it comes to this stuff.

They'd tell the American flag-wearing kids "the shirts can stay. Don't push it or else."

They'd tell the Mexican kids "If you don't like American flag shirts, don't wear one. Get over it. And don't push it or else."

I seriously doubt this. This sounds like a total red meat fantasy to me. No principal of a public school in this country ever acts that way.

573 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:41:38pm

re: #570 changomo

Do you read this blog? or do you just copy-paste your screeds from other websites?

Thanks for providing some entertainment

574 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:44:28pm

re: #566 Radical Rafe

I'm a whiz at all relations rooted in fairness and common sense.

You don't like my shirt? Hate it for you.

I don't like your shirt? Hate it for me.


Common sense is stopping bad kids with bad parents who put them up to a political stunt from inciting violence. That's what common sense is.

I heard the parents are going to be on Mark Levin's radio show of fail and suck. Which is really just perfect.

575 Basho  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:45:09pm

I don't understand why Mexican-Americans would be offended by an American flag at the American school they attend. They should have just laughed off these bozos for thinking they can get a reaction out of them.

In the grand scheme of things though.. who cares?

576 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:46:05pm

re: #564 gadlaw

why do nativist conservative types always wear hats like the one in your avatar? Is it the appearance of noble toughness?

577 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:47:00pm

re: #575 Basho

I don't understand why Mexican-Americans would be offended by an American flag at the American school they attend. They should have just laughed off these bozos for thinking they can get a reaction out of them.

In the grand scheme of things though.. who cares?

The principal saw kids inciting violence (note they were in a group, shouting and being all nativist nasty), and nailed them.

How can you disagree with this?

578 Basho  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:50:04pm

re: #577 WindUpBird

The principal saw kids inciting violence (note they were in a group, shouting and being all nativist nasty), and nailed them.

How can you disagree with this?

I'm not disagreeing with that because I only read the part Charles quoted, lol

579 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:50:58pm

re: #568 changomo

I got to disagree here Chuck,

as long as the kids were not acting hostile, they should be aloud to wear the American flag shirts. Free speech is a cornerstone of this country, and if I left America to Mexico - the last thing I would do is be offended if somebody wore a Mexican flag shirt on 4th of July

The kids were acting hostile, though.

580 Basho  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:54:11pm

re: #568 changomo

I got to disagree here Chuck,

as long as the kids were not acting hostile, they should be aloud to wear the American flag shirts. Free speech is a cornerstone of this country, and if I left America to Mexico - the last thing I would do is be offended if somebody wore a Mexican flag shirt on 4th of July

LOL at the implication that a high school should be a cornerstone of free speech.

581 b_sharp  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:56:19pm

re: #573 WindUpBird

Do you read this blog? or do you just copy-paste your screeds from other websites?

Thanks for providing some entertainment

Hey Windup, what did I miss?

582 Basho  Thu, May 6, 2010 5:58:15pm

re: #572 Charles

I seriously doubt this. This sounds like a total red meat fantasy to me. No principal of a public school in this country ever acts that way.

Ain't that the truth. They seem to want every institution managed by football coaches.

583 schlagerman  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:08:36pm

re: #94 Locker

I agree. If there was a pre-existing dress code that specifically stated shirts with flags cannot be worn at any time, and the students knowingly violated that code, then fine, send them home. However, when I skimmed the article, it sounded like these students were explicitly told they could not wear these shirts on Cinco de Mayo, and there was no previous dress code in place. If that's the case, then yes, we have a problem.

584 schlagerman  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:14:11pm

re: #577 WindUpBird

The principal saw kids inciting violence (note they were in a group, shouting and being all nativist nasty), and nailed them.

Please point out where in the article it states the boys were shouting and being "all nativist nasty". How were they inciting violence? By wearing shirts with American flags? If that incites violence, then that says a lot more about those committing the violence than it does about the boys wearing the shirts.

585 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:14:29pm

Charles, I think you're wrong about this.

As a naturalized immigrant from Latin America, I do find it outrageous that some students had to hide the US flag because it was 5 de Mayo. If this upsets students of Mexican descent, that is their problem not the problem of the ones wearing the US flag. Were the students wearing the flag trying to provoke a reaction? Probably, but the burden of tolerance is on the other side, we shouldn't treat the US flag as an incendiary symbol ... specially in our own country!!!

And 5 de Mayo doesn't really compare to the 4th of July, it isn't the day of independence of Mexico (that's Sept. 16). Actually, 5 de Mayo doesn't really mean much to anybody outside of Mexico and ironically the US.

In my country we even had a law (probably still in place), that if you show the US flag (or any other flag) you need to show the native flag of our country side by side. So in this sense, the US is pretty liberal about this already, we don't need to make up unnecessary restrictions at school.

This doesn't help at all.

586 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:20:22pm

re: #585 ElCapitanAmerica


Go back to Michelle Malkin's dumb blog and worship at her feet and leave us alone plz

587 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:22:21pm

re: #584 schlagerman

The principal saw kids inciting violence (note they were in a group, shouting and being all nativist nasty), and nailed them.

Please point out where in the article it states the boys were shouting and being "all nativist nasty". How were they inciting violence? By wearing shirts with American flags? If that incites violence, then that says a lot more about those committing the violence than it does about the boys wearing the shirts.

Obvious 5-year-old sleepwalker troll is obvious

Don't worry, your comments will not be remembered

588 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:22:42pm

@WindUpBird

Michelle Malkin's blog? I totally disagree with most of her positions, but on this one, I don't think the principal did the right thing.

Is it really an either or here? If you don't agree you're an anti immigrant douchebag (like she is)? I'm an immigrant myself and I'm not against myself, you're assumption here doesn't really make any sense at all.

589 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:23:23pm

re: #581 b_sharp

Hey Windup, what did I miss?

A LOT of dumb talking-point droids coming in from a link from Michelle Malkin's blog apparently

590 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:23:45pm

re: #588 ElCapitanAmerica

@WindUpBird

Michelle Malkin's blog? I totally disagree with most of her positions, but on this one, I don't think the principal did the right thing.

Is it really an either or here? If you don't agree you're an anti immigrant douchebag (like she is)? I'm an immigrant myself and I'm not against myself, you're assumption here doesn't really make any sense at all.

later troll :)

591 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:25:25pm

re: #590 WindUpBird

I'll let any other fair minded person determine who is being the troll here, throwing insults around and not really debating ideas or opinions in a respectful way. Your posts speak for themselves.

592 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:26:58pm

And now, here's the totally awesome Machete trailer:


Danny Trejo wins forever

593 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:30:00pm

re: #591 ElCapitanAmerica

Sorry, can't hear you

594 CSKapper  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:30:27pm

Keeping things cool in school is the responsibility of the principal. But that doesn't mean restricting the rights of the students to wear their country's flag in order to purportedly protect the feelings of other students.

Charles, I respectfully disagree with you on this. I think a student should be able to wear an American flag any day. And Cinco de Mayo has nothing to do with America. It is when the Mexicans kicked the French's ass. IMHO, the principal is completely wrong.

Your analogy comparing Cinco de Mayo to our Independence day isn't a good one. Mexico's independence day is September 16th. A better analogy would be to have Mexicans wearing their flag in their country in a school with Americans on the anniversary of the Battle of Princeton where the Americans unexpectedly beat the British. The American shouldn't and most likely wouldn't have any problems with this.

I agree with you that this issue is being blown out of proportion as so many things in our country are right now. However, that does not change my opinion that these American students have the right to wear their country's flag any day of the year while in a public school in our country.

On a separate note, according to the United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1, the flag should not be worn at all. So that pretty much kills the far right wingers assertions.

595 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:38:55pm

re: #583 schlagerman

I agree. If there was a pre-existing dress code that specifically stated shirts with flags cannot be worn at any time, and the students knowingly violated that code, then fine, send them home. However, when I skimmed the article, it sounded like these students were explicitly told they could not wear these shirts on Cinco de Mayo, and there was no previous dress code in place. If that's the case, then yes, we have a problem.

willfully misrepresenting and ignoring facts, flag on the play, 15 yards

596 Racer X  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:43:55pm

I'm thinking there is enough outrage going on lately. Everyone needs to chill the fuck out. You wanna wear an American flag shirt? No problem.

You wanna whine and bitch about it because today is Cinco de Mayo? Or Eid Al-Fitr? And your feelings might get hurt?

Cry me a fucking river.

597 worknhard  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:43:58pm

I think anyone who wears an American flag T-shirt or bandanna on Cinco De Mayo should be heavily fined and or do some serious jail time.

598 bratwurst  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:49:18pm

re: #597 worknhard

I think anyone who wears an American flag T-shirt or bandanna on Cinco De Mayo should be heavily fined and or do some serious jail time.

Wow, this troll is JUST AS LAME as it was last night.

599 Fortitudine  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:50:34pm

(sigh). Ya shouldn't wear the US flag as an item of clothing, it's disrespectful. Period. But I guess that's not the point, here.

600 worknhard  Thu, May 6, 2010 6:54:00pm

re: #598 bratwurst

Have you ever heard of sarcasm?

P.S. I don't live under a bridge.

601 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:04:31pm

This is the sort of news that Wing Nut Daily lives for. I wonder if they addressed this nontroversy already...lemme check...

[musak of Steele Dan plays in background]

Yup. WND has it covered.

602 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:05:39pm

re: #599 Fortitudine

(sigh). Ya shouldn't wear the US flag as an item of clothing, it's disrespectful. Period. But I guess that's not the point, here.

What about the flag on napkins? 0.o Or bathroom tissue!?!

603 cwnorma  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:08:11pm

While I can't say its an "outrageous outrage," I just can't agree with you on this one Charles. It is my humble opinion that in this particular instance you are wrong.

I spent 22 years defending that flag.

/moral indignation

604 b_sharp  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:08:11pm

re: #600 worknhard

Have you ever heard of sarcasm?

P.S. I don't live under a bridge.

I think Brat got the sarcasm.

605 b_sharp  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:09:52pm

I always though the military defended the country and its people, not the symbol.

606 cwnorma  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:11:00pm

re: #605 b_sharp

I always though the military defended the country and its people, not the symbol.

You would find that to those of us who have; its all one and the same. But I respect your opinion.

607 worknhard  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:11:25pm

re: #601 eclectic infidel

Thanks, I love Steele Dan.

608 b_sharp  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:18:19pm

re: #606 cwnorma

You would find that to those of us who have; its all one and the same. But I respect your opinion.

Why?

To me, conflating the symbol and the object has a religious texture that can get in the way of objective consideration.

I'm a Canuck, and if you want to piss on the Canadian flag, or call Canada a piss hole, go right ahead, I may even join you, especially if you have evidence, but walk in with guns blazing in an attempt to change how I live, and I'll take you down.

609 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:37:37pm

re: #606 cwnorma

You would find that to those of us who have; its all one and the same. But I respect your opinion.

Dad would you take a bullet for the mayor!

Yes!

Would you take a bullet for a TV?

No.

Would you take a bullet for a TV with the picture of the mayor on it?

610 andres  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:47:13pm

A little late for my return, but here it goes:

Imagine a small, but noticeable political movement in the USA that wants the USA to go back to UK. Let's say this political movement has surfaced in recent years, with the pro-UK people becoming more vocal as time passes. Then one day, 4 UK-born highschoolers decide to use the UK flag on July 4th. Sure, it might be coincidence that these teenagers are wearing the UK flag on July 4th. Do you really want to risk that this incident will escalate into something else?

Again, as I said in #285, the principal was both right and wrong on his actions.

611 cwnorma  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:47:29pm

re: #608 b_sharp

Why?

To me, conflating the symbol and the object has a religious texture that can get in the way of objective consideration.

I'm a Canuck, and if you want to piss on the Canadian flag, or call Canada a piss hole, go right ahead, I may even join you, especially if you have evidence, but walk in with guns blazing in an attempt to change how I live, and I'll take you down.

No worries! You are entitled to your opinion, and sound like my kind of Canuck! Not speaking for others, of course, in my own case I wouldn't call it any kind of religious conflation (certainly no mysticism there), As to the reason why, If I had to characterize it, I would call it more of a representational synthesis of the ideals for which it serves as a proxy.

One of those ideals is freedom of expression, and before you throw me in the briar patch b'rer Lizard, I would defend your right to burn the flag on the courthouse steps if you were so inclined.

In this specific case it was the school administrators who came in to attempt to change how the students lived (truncating their fully legal freedom of expression to accommodate an interest group's feelings--even specifying that they could wear such on any other day). I also would not agree with administrators sending them home for wearing orange shirts on St Patricks Day.

/Of course, YMMV

612 cwnorma  Thu, May 6, 2010 7:53:00pm

re: #609 jamesfirecat

re: #609 jamesfirecat

Dad would you take a bullet for the mayor!

Yes!

Would you take a bullet for a TV?

No.

Would you take a bullet for a TV with the picture of the mayor on it?

Ill see your non sequitur and raise you a straw man would you take a bullet for an idea?

613 schlagerman  Thu, May 6, 2010 8:03:17pm

re: #587 WindUpBird

I first posted here 5 years ago, but I'm a troll? Ummmkay. Please explain exactly how my comments are those of a troll. And I really couldn't care less if you think my comments will be remembered.

And for your post #595, how am I willfully misrepresenting or ignoring facts? I read the article. There's no mention of a dress code at that school. The principal stated that they could wear their flag shirts any other day. Not trying to pick a fight, I just don't see where you're coming from.

614 Greengolem64  Thu, May 6, 2010 8:03:23pm

re: #115 Charles

As far as I know, students' rights to freedom of expression are already limited in a school situation. Dress codes are perfectly legal, for example. And the officials made it very clear to these kids that they were free to wear these clothes any other day. I'm just not seeing a freedom of expression issue.

If this situation had resulted in a fight, and injured kids, the school administrators would have been on the hook for not acting to stop it when they saw it coming. They acted, and it was the responsible thing to do.

Pretty soon we'll have a whole list of days that we can't wear the American Flag:

January 9th Panama Martyrs day
January 10th United Nations day
January 27th Holocaust Memorial day
February 14th Chinese New Year
March 17th St. Patrick's Day (better not wear Orange to school!!!)
March 25th National Day of Celebration of Greek & American Democracy...guess the flag shirts are 'ok'
April 6th Tartan Day
April 8th Buddha Day
May 5th Cinco de Mayo (the current //Non-troversy)
May 14th The Stars and Stripes Forever day..guess the boys were a little early is all
May 17th (3rd Monday in Canada) Victoria Day
May 18th Shavout
May 30th (Traditional) Memorial Day

Need I go on?

It's disrespectful that the American Flag would be censored...period.

Charles, you are way off base on this one. What the kids intent was is irrelevant...

615 anand  Thu, May 6, 2010 8:10:56pm


How would these bloggers feel if a group of Mexican students came to a school event wearing Mexican flags on July 4th?

You're absolutely wrong here. The difference is that this is America and every day should be an "american-flag-allowed" day.

616 andres  Thu, May 6, 2010 8:14:03pm

re: #614 Greengolem64

You are conveniently ignoring the current political environment against immigrants. Some groups have tried to "celebrate" May 5th as "Report an Illegal day". While we don't know the exact reason why the students wore the American flag that day, it's safe to state that it might have been an incendiary provocation.

617 Greengolem64  Thu, May 6, 2010 8:21:05pm

re: #616 andres

You are conveniently ignoring the current political environment against immigrants. Some groups have tried to "celebrate" May 5th as "Report an Illegal day". While we don't know the exact reason why the students wore the American flag that day, it's safe to state that it might have been an incendiary provocation.

No...not at all, I'm conventiently 'tired' of the indignations of Polictical correctness. The Principal's statement that "you could wear the flag T-shirts" on any other day is PC BS, plane and simple. This IS the United States of American first and foremost...anything else is secondary.

So for the sake of 'preventing provocation' we will impinge on the First Amendment?? Or recognize it only when we feel that it wont 'provoke' someone?

618 andres  Thu, May 6, 2010 8:24:54pm

re: #617 Greengolem64

No...not at all, I'm conventiently 'tired' of the indignations of Polictical correctness. The Principal's statement that "you could wear the flag T-shirts" on any other day is PC BS, plane and simple. This IS the United States of American first and foremost...anything else is secondary.

So for the sake of 'preventing provocation' we will impinge on the First Amendment?? Or recognize it only when we feel that it wont 'provoke' someone?

Screaming fire in a theater is protected?

619 jaunte  Thu, May 6, 2010 8:30:01pm

Slippery Slope

This type of argument is by no means invariably fallacious, but the strength of the argument is inversely proportional to the number of steps between A and Z, and directly proportional to the causal strength of the connections between adjacent steps. If there are many intervening steps, and the causal connections between them are weak, or even unknown, then the resulting argument will be very weak, if not downright fallacious.
620 Greengolem64  Thu, May 6, 2010 8:30:46pm

re: #618 andres

Screaming fire in a theater is protected?

Apples and oranges...you better check where the SCOTUS stands on this. Just because something (in the case of a school campus) might make certain individuals feel uncomfortable does NOT give the school officials the right to 'censor' it. What the Vice Principal did was considered content based censorship. It's ok on this day to wear Mexican paraphernalia, but NOT American...however, you CAN wear American paraphernalia on ANY other day.

AND this in no way compares to the "fire in a Theater" test...please.

621 Rishonah  Thu, May 6, 2010 8:55:27pm

This is the United States, not Mexico. I absolutely do not mind any cultural or religious group celebrating an ethnically or religiously meaningful holiday. However, if the principal really thinks that children of Mexican heritage would take umbrage at American children wearing our patriotic symbols, then something is seriously, seriously wrong.

The school system and society have failed these children by not making them into American patriots, and by allowing them to believe that their Mexican heritage is more important than their duties to be good and patriotic Americans.

American children, of whatever heritage, need to be Americans first. Being a patriotic American should absolutely trump any ethnicity, religion, creed, or national background. This does not mean that we cannot be proud of where our families originated, it does not mean that we do not believe strongly in our religions, but those who choose to live in this nation owe the rest of us their first and foremost allegiance.

Either one is for America, or one is against it (as we saw just the other day in New York), there is no middle ground. I think that, on balance, immigration is a good thing, but only if the immigrants understand that they are coming to live in America, and we expect them to become true Americans, not foreigners living here to make money.

622 andres  Thu, May 6, 2010 8:58:43pm

re: #620 Greengolem64

Apples and oranges...you better check where the SCOTUS stands on this. Just because something (in the case of a school campus) might make certain individuals feel uncomfortable does NOT give the school officials the right to 'censor' it. What the Vice Principal did was considered content based censorship. It's ok on this day to wear Mexican paraphernalia, but NOT American...however, you CAN wear American paraphernalia on ANY other day.

AND this in no way compares to the "fire in a Theater" test...please.

Good thing you bring the SCOTUS, because according to them, students in K-12 school grounds don't have First Amendment protections.

Besides, we both have been discussing strawmen. Because I've pointed out twice already in this thread the problem.

623 Greengolem64  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:04:33pm

re: #622 andres

Good thing you bring the SCOTUS, because according to them, students in K-12 school grounds don't have First Amendment protections.

Besides, we both have been discussing strawmen. Because I've pointed out twice already in this thread the problem.

Actually I'm not talking specifically about the students rights...BUT, what the school officials can and cannot do.

This was not a straw man. This was a mistake on the part of the Vice Principal...plain and simple.

You 'really' think it is OK to ban specific clothing on a specific day? I'm trying to be generic here so as not to bring in the 'weight' of the American flag. If there is no specific dress code then the school has no grounds to support this Vice Principals assertion.

624 RogueOne  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:12:44pm

re: #229 Kruk

Couldn't help noticing this bit: (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel

So were these fine young patriots in fact showing disrespect to the flag they were so proud of?

The laws/regs concerning the flag are for, wait for it.....FLAGS. If it wasn't made to fly on a pole it isn't a flag, it's decoration. There is nothing wrong with clothing, artwork, toys or any other item adorned with the stars and stripes.

BTW, If anyone were to set fire to a flag in my presence they should know I don't mind spending the night in jail and taking another anger management course.

625 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:14:27pm

re: #623 Greengolem64

Actually I'm not talking specifically about the students rights...BUT, what the school officials can and cannot do.

This was not a straw man. This was a mistake on the part of the Vice Principal...plain and simple.

You 'really' think it is OK to ban specific clothing on a specific day? I'm trying to be generic here so as not to bring in the 'weight' of the American flag. If there is no specific dress code then the school has no grounds to support this Vice Principals assertion.

Go away, ye who say nothing but type lots

go away, fake instant expert about the powers of a school administrator who's just making shit up

go back to your stupid right wing stenographer nativist blogs

go back to your paranoid selective outrage

go back to your Levins, your Malkins, your Hannities, your Becks, and your O'Reillies

go back and worship at the altar of dumb

626 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:16:29pm

re: #621 Rishonah


Either one is for America, or one is against it (as we saw just the other day in New York), there is no middle ground. I think that, on balance, immigration is a good thing, but only if the immigrants understand that they are coming to live in America, and we expect them to become true Americans, not foreigners living here to make money.

Do you have a beard?

I'm just asking, because you read like a grumpy sort with a big beard

627 Greengolem64  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:19:34pm

re: #625 WindUpBird

Go away, ye who say nothing but type lots

go away, fake instant expert about the powers of a school administrator who's just making shit up

go back to your stupid right wing stenographer nativist blogs

go back to your paranoid selective outrage

go back to your Levins, your Malkins, your Hannities, your Becks, and your O'Reillies

go back and worship at the altar of dumb

And good evening too you too. What a wonderful country we live in...where you can say what YOU like...as can I. Not sure what I did to invoke your ire...Guess you would be watching Olberman and Sanchez and Matthews then?

;)

And truth be told, this is the ONLY blog I post to. Disappointing to see some if its degredations though.

628 Pacificlady  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:22:24pm

Bottom line, wearing a shirt with the American flag should not be incendiary to anyone in an American school. The vice-principal is an ass.

629 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:29:51pm

Pathetic. And sad.

630 Greengolem64  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:31:28pm

Certainly is...

631 cwnorma  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:33:09pm

Has gone down hill some...

Yet need; sanity's dose

Still I disagree.

632 Greengolem64  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:33:35pm

Windsagio...you missed one. Don't forget my #620...

633 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:36:13pm

re: #627 Greengolem64

... this is the ONLY blog I post to. Disappointing to see some if its degredations though.

Well, you won't have to worry about posting at such a "degraded" blog any more, since I've removed your posting privileges. No need to thank me.

634 [deleted]  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:50:00pm
635 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:51:53pm

Yeah, that's the way to show you aren't a jerk, by using your wife's account to post a final jab. Which is now deleted.

636 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:58:38pm

I see we had some stealth dingers going through the thread too.

637 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:59:34pm

re: #611 cwnorma

No worries! You are entitled to your opinion, and sound like my kind of Canuck! Not speaking for others, of course, in my own case I wouldn't call it any kind of religious conflation (certainly no mysticism there), As to the reason why, If I had to characterize it, I would call it more of a representational synthesis of the ideals for which it serves as a proxy.

One of those ideals is freedom of expression, and before you throw me in the briar patch b'rer Lizard, I would defend your right to burn the flag on the courthouse steps if you were so inclined.

In this specific case it was the school administrators who came in to attempt to change how the students lived (truncating their fully legal freedom of expression to accommodate an interest group's feelings--even specifying that they could wear such on any other day). I also would not agree with administrators sending them home for wearing orange shirts on St Patricks Day.

/Of course, YMMV

What makes you think that I'm from Canada?

638 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 9:59:57pm

re: #612 cwnorma

re: #609 jamesfirecat

Ill see your non sequitur and raise you a straw man would you take a bullet for an idea?

Dude it's a Simpson's quote.

639 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:02:59pm

re: #610 andres

A little late for my return, but here it goes:

Imagine a small, but noticeable political movement in the USA that wants the USA to go back to UK. Let's say this political movement has surfaced in recent years, with the pro-UK people becoming more vocal as time passes. Then one day, 4 UK-born highschoolers decide to use the UK flag on July 4th. Sure, it might be coincidence that these teenagers are wearing the UK flag on July 4th. Do you really want to risk that this incident will escalate into something else?

Again, as I said in #285, the principal was both right and wrong on his actions.

I actually have no idea what that analogy is supposed to mean. It's an interesting one. Huh?

640 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:07:03pm

re: #637 jamesfirecat

What makes you think that I'm from Canada?

Whoops sorry you weren't replying to me that was a post down, my mistake.

641 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:09:05pm

re: #621 Rishonah

This is the United States, not Mexico. I absolutely do not mind any cultural or religious group celebrating an ethnically or religiously meaningful holiday. However, if the principal really thinks that children of Mexican heritage would take umbrage at American children wearing our patriotic symbols, then something is seriously, seriously wrong.

The school system and society have failed these children by not making them into American patriots, and by allowing them to believe that their Mexican heritage is more important than their duties to be good and patriotic Americans.

American children, of whatever heritage, need to be Americans first. Being a patriotic American should absolutely trump any ethnicity, religion, creed, or national background. This does not mean that we cannot be proud of where our families originated, it does not mean that we do not believe strongly in our religions, but those who choose to live in this nation owe the rest of us their first and foremost allegiance.

Either one is for America, or one is against it (as we saw just the other day in New York), there is no middle ground. I think that, on balance, immigration is a good thing, but only if the immigrants understand that they are coming to live in America, and we expect them to become true Americans, not foreigners living here to make money.

So celebrating something from their cultural heritage makes them less American?

You know, not so long ago people used to say those things about Jews dressing traditionally and keeping kosher. In fact if you go to the hate sites they still go on about how oppressive it is to see Jewish references in movies or that there are kosher restaurants and how much they hate our funny little hats.

You are walking down a very dangerous path. Turn back from it please.

642 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:09:38pm

re: #635 Charles

Yeah, that's the way to show you aren't a jerk, by using your wife's account to post a final jab. Which is now deleted.

Two trolls to roast. One for a late night snack, and one for breakfast.

643 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:11:13pm

re: #617 Greengolem64

No...not at all, I'm conventiently 'tired' of the indignations of Polictical correctness. The Principal's statement that "you could wear the flag T-shirts" on any other day is PC BS, plane and simple. This IS the United States of American first and foremost...anything else is secondary.

So for the sake of 'preventing provocation' we will impinge on the First Amendment?? Or recognize it only when we feel that it wont 'provoke' someone?

Do you understand that there were students at the school who wore U.S. flag t-shirts all day long, and were the subject of no attention, because they were not being jerks?

Do you actually think that a student on a high school campus has the same First Amendment rights as an adult?

Have you read anything about this very small and petty situation that didn't come from La Malkin's blog?

644 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:12:33pm

re: #623 Greengolem64

Actually I'm not talking specifically about the students rights...BUT, what the school officials can and cannot do.

This was not a straw man. This was a mistake on the part of the Vice Principal...plain and simple.

You 'really' think it is OK to ban specific clothing on a specific day? I'm trying to be generic here so as not to bring in the 'weight' of the American flag. If there is no specific dress code then the school has no grounds to support this Vice Principals assertion.

You really think the Vice Principal of a school cannot make a judgement call about how his students are behaving?

645 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:14:34pm

re: #644 SanFranciscoZionist

You really think the Vice Principal of a school cannot make a judgement call about how his students are behaving?

If the situation were exactly opposite, and Mexican students were asked to remove Mexican flag clothing on a US holiday to avoid provoking white Anglo students, these same people would be applauding and cheering.

646 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:18:31pm

re: #303 Charles

We'll be seeing more incidents like this, deliberately intended to provoke racial tensions and then exploit the resulting fallout for xenophobic red meat.

Another thing straight out of the early Nazi playbook.

647 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:24:31pm

re: #636 Charles

I see we had some stealth dingers going through the thread too.

I've just spent WAY too much time updinging Lizards who were downdinged by trolls.

648 andres  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:29:29pm

re: #623 Greengolem64

Actually I'm not talking specifically about the students rights...BUT, what the school officials can and cannot do.

This was not a straw man. This was a mistake on the part of the Vice Principal...plain and simple.

You 'really' think it is OK to ban specific clothing on a specific day? I'm trying to be generic here so as not to bring in the 'weight' of the American flag. If there is no specific dress code then the school has no grounds to support this Vice Principals assertion.

You still haven't address my point. See #610 for more information.

649 Rishonah  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:30:19pm

re: #626 WindUpBird

No, I am a middle-aged Jewish mother who generally votes for Democrats (although not always) and whose daughter is getting married on August 1. I am also an American patriot and I have no patience whatsoever with those who live here, accepting the myriad gifts of this nation, without being loyal to the United States.

650 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:34:46pm

re: #649 Rishonah

No, I am a middle-aged Jewish mother who generally votes for Democrats (although not always) and whose daughter is getting married on August 1. I am also an American patriot and I have no patience whatsoever with those who live here, accepting the myriad gifts of this nation, without being loyal to the United States.

Where did you see any indication that the Hispanic students who complained about these yahoos and their flag clothes were not "loyal to the United States?"

651 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:36:13pm

re: #649 Rishonah

No, I am a middle-aged Jewish mother who generally votes for Democrats (although not always) and whose daughter is getting married on August 1. I am also an American patriot and I have no patience whatsoever with those who live here, accepting the myriad gifts of this nation, without being loyal to the United States.

The indisputable fact of the mater is that those five kids were assholes, or had asshole parents, nobody but an asshole would wear an American flag for a shirt, pants, and shoes at the same time on a day that had important significance for another nationality?

How welcome do you think a person would be if he showed up wearing the red green and gold of today's German turned into a shirt pants and shoes to school on passover at a German school with a lot of Jewish kids? (Only Jewish Holiday I know off the top of my head)

652 andres  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:39:41pm

re: #639 SanFranciscoZionist

I actually have no idea what that analogy is supposed to mean. It's an interesting one. Huh?

The high school students' actions weren't done in a vacuum. My point was that, while having a flag or symbol is not an incendiary act per se, it may be under certain situations where the political atmosphere is charged in favor and/or against that flag or symbol.

Yes, the analogy is highly strange and it makes no sense in today's world. I wanted to avoid something more relevant, but more incendiary, as some people believe it to be true. Blame Political Correctness. =)

re: #648 andres

Charles, feel free to delete this comment, as that person won't be able to answer.

653 Rishonah  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:41:01pm

re: #641 LudwigVanQuixote

Please reread what I said. I have no problem with anyone celebrating holidays which are meaningful for them, whether it is Cinco de Mayo, or Pesach. What I object to is the idea that Cinco de Mayo (or Pesach) should be so important that it supersedes the right of Americans to wear clothing decorated with traditional American symbols. Apparently the schools, their parents, and society has failed these children by allowing them to grow up without understanding that we are all Americans first, and everything else secondarily.

In the same way that I do not expect the rest of society to adopt Jewish holidays, but to allow a reasonable accommodation for those of us who celebrate them, so I expect the same for other minorities. The principal thought that the sight of the American flag on what is, after all, not a traditional American holiday, would cause a riot on the part of the children of Mexican heritage. If you do not see the absolute wrongheadedness of this, then I cannot help you.

654 Rishonah  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:41:57pm

re: #650 Charles

Charles,

I didn't say I did. However, the principal of the school seemed to think it was true.

655 sagehen  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:42:17pm

re: #621 Rishonah

American children, of whatever heritage, need to be Americans first. Being a patriotic American should absolutely trump any ethnicity, religion, creed, or national background. This does not mean that we cannot be proud of where our families originated, it does not mean that we do not believe strongly in our religions, but those who choose to live in this nation owe the rest of us their first and foremost allegiance.

And schoolchildren, of any political persuasian, need to be students first. And if today's lesson is to learn about a place/culture/people somewhat different than your day to day life, maybe the kids should just go with it.

656 Surabaya Stew  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:43:52pm

re: #651 jamesfirecat

The indisputable fact of the mater is that those five kids were assholes, or had asshole parents, nobody but an asshole would wear an American flag for a shirt, pants, and shoes at the same time on a day that had important significance for another nationality?

How welcome do you think a person would be if he showed up wearing the red green and gold of today's German turned into a shirt pants and shoes to school on passover at a German school with a lot of Jewish kids? (Only Jewish Holiday I know off the top of my head)

Your point is well taken, but most Jewish kids would likely not be in school during Passover. An appropriate day to choose for your example would be Israeli Independence day (May 14) or Holocaust Remembrance Day (27 Nisan). Nitpicking perhaps, but just sayin'....

657 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:45:48pm

re: #656 Surabaya Stew

Your point is well taken, but most Jewish kids would likely not be in school during Passover. An appropriate day to choose for your example would be Israeli Independence day (May 14) or Holocaust Remembrance Day (27 Nisan). Nitpicking perhaps, but just sayin'...

No I'm always glad to get nitpicked when I learn something from it and you pick a valid nit in this case.

658 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:47:51pm

re: #650 Charles

Where did you see any indication that the Hispanic students who complained about these yahoos and their flag clothes were not "loyal to the United States?"

Wingnuts have this wacky idea that it isn't possible to love the country you came from and also love this country. My wife was not born in Cuba but her parents were. In my home, we celebrate both Cuban and American traditions.

659 Surabaya Stew  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:48:43pm

re: #657 jamesfirecat

No I'm always glad to get nitpicked when I learn something from it and you pick a valid nit in this case.

Ah, glad to be of service! Feel free to bite back if I pick too many nits or fail to be polite about doing so.

660 FullRoller  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:49:32pm

re: #495 WindUpBird

is this copypasted from Free Republic

No, I've never hear of "free republic". I don't need anyone else to do my thinking for me.

661 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:01pm

re: #660 FullRoller

No, I've never hear of "free republic". I don't need anyone else to do my thinking for me.

So you've been a member of LGF for three years an never heard of Free Republic?

Wow....

662 Rishonah  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:54:41pm

re: #651 jamesfirecat

Actually, I think the modern German flag is red, gold and black. AND, there is a huge difference between wearing the colors of the modern German flag and wearing a red shirt with a swastika.

Modern Germans are not responsible for what their fathers did, and I say this as the child of Holocaust refugees. I have been to Germany (which, in fact, is where my family comes from) and I have no problem with it, on Passover or any other holiday.

If the five boys were in trouble for their behavior, that is one thing. But, if the sight of American patriotic symbols was felt to be so threatening because children celebrating an ethnic holiday would take offense, then something is absolutely wrong. Are you saying, for example, that Muslim women should be attacked for wearing the hijab on Christmas? After all, it is a Christian holiday, and celebrants might take offense.

663 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 10:55:51pm

re: #662 Rishonah

Actually, I think the modern German flag is red, gold and black. AND, there is a huge difference between wearing the colors of the modern German flag and wearing a red shirt with a swastika.

Modern Germans are not responsible for what their fathers did, and I say this as the child of Holocaust refugees. I have been to Germany (which, in fact, is where my family comes from) and I have no problem with it, on Passover or any other holiday.

If the five boys were in trouble for their behavior, that is one thing. But, if the sight of American patriotic symbols was felt to be so threatening because children celebrating an ethnic holiday would take offense, then something is absolutely wrong. Are you saying, for example, that Muslim women should be attacked for wearing the hijab on Christmas? After all, it is a Christian holiday, and celebrants might take offense.

Invalid argument. When was the last time you had school on Christmas?

664 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:01:31pm

OK, it's 11:00 Pacific time & we're at 664 comments.
Anyone want to bet on the # of comments at 9:00 Pacific Time?
# of deletions?
Bannings?
LOL!

Stay classy folks!

665 Surabaya Stew  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:27pm

re: #662 Rishonah

Actually, I think the modern German flag is red, gold and black. AND, there is a huge difference between wearing the colors of the modern German flag and wearing a red shirt with a swastika.

Modern Germans are not responsible for what their fathers did, and I say this as the child of Holocaust refugees. I have been to Germany (which, in fact, is where my family comes from) and I have no problem with it, on Passover or any other holiday.

If the five boys were in trouble for their behavior, that is one thing. But, if the sight of American patriotic symbols was felt to be so threatening because children celebrating an ethnic holiday would take offense, then something is absolutely wrong. Are you saying, for example, that Muslim women should be attacked for wearing the hijab on Christmas? After all, it is a Christian holiday, and celebrants might take offense.


Lets see here....

On your first point, while there may be a difference between the modern era and nazi era german flags, everyone who knows the colors of the modern german flag knows that wearing them can be considered a provocation depending on the context. So the difference may be moot in James's hypothetical situation.

Agreed on your second point.

As for your third point? That's grasping at straws, I'm afraid; try again.

666 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:02:47pm

re: #662 Rishonah

Actually, I think the modern German flag is red, gold and black. AND, there is a huge difference between wearing the colors of the modern German flag and wearing a red shirt with a swastika.

Modern Germans are not responsible for what their fathers did, and I say this as the child of Holocaust refugees. I have been to Germany (which, in fact, is where my family comes from) and I have no problem with it, on Passover or any other holiday.

If the five boys were in trouble for their behavior, that is one thing. But, if the sight of American patriotic symbols was felt to be so threatening because children celebrating an ethnic holiday would take offense, then something is absolutely wrong. Are you saying, for example, that Muslim women should be attacked for wearing the hijab on Christmas? After all, it is a Christian holiday, and celebrants might take offense.

For a more logical rebuttal (not easy to do at this time of night)

Is there any reason for a Muslim Woman to be wearing a hijab besides the fact that they want to? Is it something that they have to do?

If so then the wheels fall off your connection to the American Flab Tee Shirt, Short and Shoes argument then and there.

If it isn't then secondly I never said "attacked" I don't believe that anyone should be treated violently for what they wear give or take the bounds of reasonable taste taken to extreme extremes.

Thirdly is a hijab something noticeable? Because if its like cross around a Christian person's neck then you can miss it quite easily, you can't miss a bunch of kids decked out in the star spangled banner on every artical of clothing they're wearing.

Fourthly: There's a difference between what religion you follow and what nationality you are that really makes my Germany Jewish analogy wrong from the start so let me replace it with a better one.

If you were principle in Ireland, and you saw some kids wearing Union Jack T shirt, shorts and shoes on March 17th, wearing the flag of their own country within their own school system, would you be worried about what might happen to them know that they're wearing the British Flag in an extremely tasteless way on one of the most well known and celebrated of Irish holidays?

667 FullRoller  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:07:18pm

re: #613 schlagerman

I first posted here 5 years ago, but I'm a troll? Ummmkay. Please explain exactly how my comments are those of a troll. And I really couldn't care less if you think my comments will be remembered.

And for your post #595, how am I willfully misrepresenting or ignoring facts? I read the article. There's no mention of a dress code at that school. The principal stated that they could wear their flag shirts any other day. Not trying to pick a fight, I just don't see where you're coming from.


Well, since you disagree with him that automatically means that you are a troll. Wack-O logic gets you there every time don't you know....

668 FullRoller  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:09:29pm

re: #661 jamesfirecat

So you've been a member of LGF for three years an never heard of Free Republic?

Wow...

I don't exactly live for this place, just come here on ocassion to see what people are thinking and saying. When I have an opinion to express, I do so, all on my own.

669 Aye Pod  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:23:45pm

This pathetic stunt reminds me of the pathetic race-baiting antics of James O'Keefe.

670 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:28:17pm

FYI: Search4Truth and a few others are downdinging random comments. I've obviously pissed him/her off too.

671 Aye Pod  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:35:58pm

re: #555 reine.de.tout

Stealth downdinger?

Yeah what's with that 'Nekama' character? Looking at his avatar, which says : "HOW ABOUT ROOTING FOR AMERICA FOR A CHANGE YOU LIBERAL SCUMBAG", his 'motto' :"Where Islam Goes, Blood Flows" and his stealth downdinging of Charles and others, I'm guessing he's not exactly happy to be here.

672 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:38:38pm

re: #671 Jimmah

Yeah what's with that 'Nekama' character? Looking at his avatar, which says : "HOW ABOUT ROOTING FOR AMERICA FOR A CHANGE YOU LIBERAL SCUMBAG", his 'motto' :"Where Islam Goes, Blood Flows" and his stealth downdinging of Charles and others, I'm guessing he's not exactly happy to be here.

Sounds like a real winner.

673 Aye Pod  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:45:50pm

re: #672 beekiller

Sounds like a real winner.

I gather he was popular here once -back in 'the day'. How things have changed -for the better :)

PS Good to see you Beekiller. Ice-ski would say Hi but she's gone to bed, which is where I'm heading shortly. Say hello to your missus for us!

674 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:47:52pm

Are trolls in this thread downdinging Lizards for no apparent reason except to be dicks?

*shakes Magic 8-ball* Image: 8ball.jpg


"It is Certain"

675 Mark Pennington  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:48:46pm

re: #673 Jimmah

I gather he was popular here once -back in 'the day'. How things have changed -for the better :)

PS Good to see you Beekiller. Ice-ski would say Hi but she's gone to bed, which is where I'm heading shortly. Say hello to your missus for us!

Say Hi back and sleep well!

676 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:49:00pm

re: #673 Jimmah

Hey! How's NY! Hug Mrs. Ice for me, too!
Hope all is well & you get your doc's soon!
Be well.

Bet this thread gos to 1000 overnight!
Lots of holes, once Stinky wakes up!

677 changomo  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:56:05pm

re: #580 Basho

Basho, you're right in pointing out that High Schools do have certain pragmatic restrictions to full freedom of speech t (such as somebody being allowed to walk around in Nazi uniform) - I agree....

But that is the crux of the point I'm making, if American flag is found to be an insulting symbol in America, (regardless of what day or what place in America) - truly our country is lost.

678 changomo  Thu, May 6, 2010 11:57:20pm

re: #573 WindUpBird

I've been reading this blog for almost 8 years now wind up bird, but instead of insulting me - maybe you could be more constructive and debate my points?

679 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:00:12am

re: #577 WindUpBird

I read the whole article that Charles Posted, and I watched the video - no mention of shouting or being insulting to Mexicans.

I can only make my judgement on this issue with what information I went with that Charles presented in his post.

If they were shouting and insulting the Mexican Americans..then of course I agree with the principle. Can you post a link or site that talks about them shouting and insulting other students?

680 Aye Pod  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:00:37am

re: #676 Floral Giraffe

Hey! How's NY! Hug Mrs. Ice for me, too!
Hope all is well & you get your doc's soon!
Be well.

Bet this thread gos to 1000 overnight!
Lots of holes, once Stinky wakes up!

Hey thanks FG! Processing time varies - we have our fingers crossed for an early result but it might take longer than we'd like. Having a fantastic time here - I'd post some of our pics of the sights in NYC but photobucket seems to have been on the fritz for the last couple of weeks. Maybe I'll try uploading from a different PC in case something funky going on with this one.
Later, folks :)

681 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:02:10am

re: #579 SanFranciscoZionist

Can you show me where in the article or video that Chuck posted that stated they were being hostile?

and if you feel wearing a shirt with an American Flag is hostile in itself - then we probably cannot see eye to eye.

682 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:07:40am

re: #610 andres

andres...nice analogy - but you got it backwards...

it would be say on 4th of July in a neighborhood in london - 4 teens had the union jack....and were suspended.

That would be a more appropriate analogy....

again - it would be like banning the British Flag IN England on certain days

683 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:16:20am

Another point I thought about....as a citizen of America - Mexicans in Morgan Hill have no reason to be offended.....are we not all Americans?

Again, if the 4 students were holding signs that like "Mexico sucks", or yelling and being disruptive - I agree 100% then with the principle - but again, after reading the article Chuck posted, and the video in the article - all it said was they were wearing the clothing (nothing more)

I have not seen once piece of evidence that the 4 students (one of which was half Hispanic according to the video in the link) did anything more offensive then wear clothing with USA motifs (flags)

I myself am in immigrant, and I seriously don't care if somebody is wearing an American flag shirt on any holiday celebrating another country. Especially if that is all they are doing.

684 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:24:45am

re: #681 changomo

Can you show me where in the article or video that Chuck posted that stated they were being hostile?

and if you feel wearing a shirt with an American Flag is hostile in itself - then we probably cannot see eye to eye.

It's Charles to you, not Chuck.

685 Gus  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:25:20am

re: #683 changomo

WTF is your point in calling Charles, Chuck? You're making a fool of yourself. The only people that use that nickname are stalkers and people that send hate mail.

686 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:27:28am

re: #685 Gus 802

WTF is your point in calling Charles, Chuck? You're making a fool of yourself. The only people that use that nickname are stalkers and people that send hate mail.

And, get banned once Stinky wakes up in the morning!

687 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:27:34am

re: #685 Gus 802

WTF is your point in calling Charles, Chuck? You're making a fool of yourself. The only people that use that nickname are stalkers and people that send hate mail.

Exactly.

*yawn* the trolls are boring and it is late. Good-nite, Lizards.

688 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:29:23am

What is this? The Praetorian Guard?

Ever heard of
Robert = Bob?
Harrold = Harry?
Peter = Pete?

Heck , Charles Schwab himself refers to himself as "Chuck"

dude - I've heard of stories (that admittedly I thought were baseless) about a cult of personality being formed around (excuse me) Charles. I gotta say - these last two posts seriously scare me....

689 Gus  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:29:42am

re: #686 Floral Giraffe

And, get banned once Stinky wakes up in the morning!

Probably. I've seen it used before and those that used it ended up being history in no time flat. It's typically a sign.

690 lamb chop  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:30:51am

re: #8 Lidane

The Hallmark™ has met the road

691 Gus  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:31:10am

re: #688 changomo

What is this? The Praetorian Guard?

Ever heard of
Robert = Bob?
Harrold = Harry?
Peter = Pete?

Heck , Charles Schwab himself refers to himself as "Chuck"

dude - I've heard of stories (that admittedly I thought were baseless) about a cult of personality being formed around (excuse me) Charles. I gotta say - these last two posts seriously scare me...

Tough shit.

692 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:33:57am

re: #686 Floral Giraffe

seriously, if I get banned on this board for referring to Charles as Chuck - and that is my only offense - I will thankfully welcome it - because any site that bans a person for simply using a non-offensive short hand of the blog's owner's name (in a non-offensive context no less) - truly is not a site that welcomes any form if intellectual honest dissent.

693 Pierless  Fri, May 7, 2010 12:55:09am

re: #1 Kruk

I am a wingnut on this issue: Europe endlessly appeases Muslims. Now America appeases Mexicans? You like that retarded veil-and-burqa look? Well be my guest and turn my street into Kabul! You like 5 de Mayo? Well, excuse me while I hide MY flag in MY country where YOU live. Sorry, sorry, sorry....

694 lamb chop  Fri, May 7, 2010 1:03:33am

re: #683 changomo

...here's the deal:
kids... teenagers....cinco de mayo... some kids who dont seem to adorn themselves in the Flag on many other days of the year....do...en masse..why...free speech ..sure...i get it... but were talking teenagers...in a public school (so its crowded)... now the people we've chosen to vastly underpay are given an equation. It's part of the equation everyday.... families have entrusted these same underpaid and over politicized state employees to keep what is most infinitely dear to them safe for six hours a day....and maybe teach them a thing or two.....

we're talking about proly 4000 students in the school (guessing), 100 faculty/admin (also a guess), sooooo thats a 1 to 40 ratio...... good luck keeping a lid on that...
now add conflict.. any conflict.... (not eating beef on Beef Day, or eating beef on Vegan Day)

as an admin your equation is..... stifle the conflict...and risk explaining your antiflagvaluesunpatrioticfreespeechhatingcommunism to the world at large and
making sure everyone got their kids home safely...... or spending your time explaining why all your years of experience didn't prepare you to for see the agitation in the student body, and if you only knew you would have stopped it sooner before ....... happened to.......... students....

695 lamb chop  Fri, May 7, 2010 1:06:35am

how bout just 'baggers' ?


i like it... i'll be rolling with 'Baggers' from here forward!

696 search4truth  Fri, May 7, 2010 1:14:01am

My family spent several decades defending this nation. If it has become a bad thing to wear the American flag we have issues bigger than we see at the moment. I'm all for other heritages and celibrating but this takes the cake. My mexican friends are cracking up about this by the way. This is a total overreaction. Part of the problem is we over accommodate. We try to include everyone and then all of a sudden, we aren't allowed to be American because it offends someone. That is not what my forefathers fought for.

697 Nimed  Fri, May 7, 2010 1:19:07am

re: #696 search4truth

My family spent several decades defending this nation. If it has become a bad thing to wear the American flag we have issues bigger than we see at the moment. I'm all for other heritages and celibrating but this takes the cake. My mexican friends are cracking up about this by the way. This is a total overreaction. Part of the problem is we over accommodate. We try to include everyone and then all of a sudden, we aren't allowed to be American because it offends someone. That is not what my forefathers fought for.

Dude, you just spent the last hour downdinding. What's your problem?

698 windsagio  Fri, May 7, 2010 1:20:24am

This thread is freakin' amazing.

699 windsagio  Fri, May 7, 2010 1:22:24am
700 search4truth  Fri, May 7, 2010 1:30:19am

re: #670 beekiller

FYI: Search4Truth and a few others are downdinging random comments. I've obviously pissed him/her off too.


just disagreeing with your comments among others. Not that I have to update you but I also updinged a few that I agreed with. I'm not pissed at all and even put in my own comment. Thankyou for asking, bee.

701 search4truth  Fri, May 7, 2010 2:10:02am

re: #697 Nimed

Dude, you just spent the last hour downdinding. What's your problem?

nimed it has tekan me a ton of time to just reboot my computer to reply to you. Don't assume everyone has the greatest connection. I think I'v e actually spent over 3 hours voting and commenting actually on this thread. Some of us do not have the advantages as others. Pleas eremenmber that. Thankyou . I also have updinged. Thank you.

702 Basho  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:19:00am

re: #677 changomo


But that is the crux of the point I'm making, if American flag is found to be an insulting symbol in America, (regardless of what day or what place in America) - truly our country is lost.

Dude, it's a high school no one has heard of until now...

703 gandalf.il  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:53:39am

re: #645 Charles

Well I wouldn't.

I think the VP is wrong, and would be wrong in the hypothetical situation you suggested.

704 Radical Rafe  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:15:22am

re: #572 Charles

Well that's fine Charles, you can seriously doubt it all you want, but you're wrong. I've got two teenagers, and my wife and I stay involved in the PTSA and such. Out of the five school principals my kids have had thus far, four of them have exhibited sufficient backbone in other race-sensitive situations (like every year when the headscarf-wearing Muslim kids complained about kids wearing the American flag on September 11, or the time two black high schoolers dragged a white bus driver off his bus and beat the shit out of him) to warrant my prediction.

I've lived it, right here in good old Nashville. Red meat fantasy, my arse. You are flat out wrong about the principals in my little corner of the world. Sorry.

705 Peter Ness  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:45:41am

So, if the American flag cannot be worn at an American school on Cinco de Mayo day, how would the school’s V.P. handle someone of Native American ancestry who turned up on campus? Should they be banned too? Just for that day you understand, so they don’t create conflict and bad feelings…

There’s some real self-loathing of your country you’ve got going there Charles, and not everyone who criticizes you is a right-wing, fascist, hypocrite, creationist, gun-nut, GOP, Palin-worshipping, Christian fundamentalist loon.

706 andres  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:03:45am

re: #682 changomo

andres...nice analogy - but you got it backwards...

it would be say on 4th of July in a neighborhood in london - 4 teens had the union jack...and were suspended.

That would be a more appropriate analogy...

again - it would be like banning the British Flag IN England on certain days

Actually no, I didn't get it backwards.

Charles' example doesn't make it, because his starting point is a vacuum which, as much as we like to think it that way, our high schools aren't in a political vacuum. For the analogy to actually work, it needs a political movement not big enough to be a majority, but a small but noisy minority pushing for their far-fetched ideas. But it also needs to start being taken seriously, to the point that it starts to become a viable stance. I chose a pro-UK-integration movement because (I hope) it's completely dead, and unlikely to spark controversy in itself, allowing for the discussion of the analogy instead of whatever other point some might want to wander.

With that, I tried to recreate the current environment on which we find ourselves today. Not perfectly, but it should do for a thought experiment. So we now have recreated the political environment, but we need to recreate the event in itself.

Why the teenagers are from UK, instead of USA? Just following Charles original example (Mexican-Americans weaving the Mexican flag on Independence Day, which as Walter pointed out, its not offensive). For the fictional act to be more correct, the 4 teenagers should display their UK flags on a day that would prove sensitive to the political environment, which I tried to recreate above. What better day to make their (fictional) act than on July 4th, the US Independence Day? That leaves us with how the school is still open on July, but please keep the suspension of belief.

As I said, the analogy is not perfect. But as I've said before, the students actions and the vice-principal reaction can't be judged in the vacuum, as many people are doing. There's another context we need to keep in mind. As Charles points out, this could have ben designed to cause a reaction, possibly some kind of aggression against them by the Hispanic students.

And as I pointed out early, the vice-principal was both right and wrong on his actions.

707 gadlaw  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:14:59am

re: #454 celticdragon

I have to agree. If the school is going to send kids home who wear tee shirts with national flags...then send them all home, including those with Mexican flags.

Exactly what those folks said. It's America, American holidays are celebrated, others are noted and every one of these ethnic drinking holidays are celebrated all around with Columbus Day Italian and American Flags, St Patrick's Day with Irish and American Flags, Octoberfest with German and American Flags, Mardi Gras with French and American Flags and any others I'm forgetting. It's a celebration of culture, National foods and drink not this Declaration of Independence of Mexicans from the laws and culture of the United States that it's become thanks to the nonsense spouting PC crowd. If Hispanic people are offended by American flags then they don't seem to be assimilating to the country as every other ethnic group has and they need to consider going back to where they emigrated from and where they can go throw rocks at the American Flag like everyone else does. Charles is way off base here and fundamentally flawed in his analysis, such as it is.

708 spiderbucket  Fri, May 7, 2010 7:19:17am

I disagree with Charles on this one. Free speech trumps everything. While I think the kids were trying to stir the pot, we need to show the world that in the USA - you have the right to be provocative and to make a statement.

709 Obdicut  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:16:56am

re: #707 gadlaw

Adamant refusal to read the facts of the case don't really make you seem very smart.

710 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:20:38am

re: #705 Peter Ness

Piss off. And fuck yourself while you're at it, asshole.

711 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:21:27am

re: #704 Radical Rafe

Well that's fine Charles, you can seriously doubt it all you want, but you're wrong. I've got two teenagers, and my wife and I stay involved in the PTSA and such. Out of the five school principals my kids have had thus far, four of them have exhibited sufficient backbone in other race-sensitive situations (like every year when the headscarf-wearing Muslim kids complained about kids wearing the American flag on September 11, or the time two black high schoolers dragged a white bus driver off his bus and beat the shit out of him) to warrant my prediction.

I've lived it, right here in good old Nashville. Red meat fantasy, my arse. You are flat out wrong about the principals in my little corner of the world. Sorry.

I don't believe you.

712 bratwurst  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:25:42am

re: #709 Obdicut

Adamant refusal to read the facts of the case don't really make you seem very smart.


It seems where Old Glory is involved, some folks don't see any need for facts.

713 gadlaw  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:27:57am

re: #709 Obdicut

Adamant refusal to read the facts of the case don't really make you seem very smart.

Interesting. I've read the article and the follow up article. [Link: tinyurl.com...] The only ones I see who are acting in a divisive manner are the Hispanic students of the school. Again, it's not Mexico - it's the United States of America where your ethnic pride in no way should be allowed to overcome the fact that you're in America to become an American. By not providing the Hispanic students with that relevant fact does a disservice to them and the community they are a part of. To allow them to act like a 'Hispanic Gang' and allowing them to bully the American students does no good to anyone. Seriously.

714 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:30:20am

re: #713 gadlaw

Interesting. I've read the article and the follow up article. [Link: tinyurl.com...] The only ones I see who are acting in a divisive manner are the Hispanic students of the school.

That's because you're being willfully blind to the facts.

715 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:30:40am

re: #649 Rishonah

No, I am a middle-aged Jewish mother who generally votes for Democrats (although not always) and whose daughter is getting married on August 1. I am also an American patriot and I have no patience whatsoever with those who live here, accepting the myriad gifts of this nation, without being loyal to the United States.

Whooooaaaaa. Who the hell are you talking about?

716 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:31:20am

This thread really woke up the bigoted sleepers.

717 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:32:55am

re: #653 Rishonah

The principal thought that the sight of the American flag on what is, after all, not a traditional American holiday, would cause a riot on the part of the children of Mexican heritage. If you do not see the absolute wrongheadedness of this, then I cannot help you.

That is absolutely not what the principal thought. You're reading a whole lot of stuff into this that is coming from you and your preconceived ideas about why this happened.

718 jamesfirecat  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:36:07am

re: #701 search4truth

nimed it has tekan me a ton of time to just reboot my computer to reply to you. Don't assume everyone has the greatest connection. I think I'v e actually spent over 3 hours voting and commenting actually on this thread. Some of us do not have the advantages as others. Pleas eremenmber that. Thankyou . I also have updinged. Thank you.

Well next time feel free to spend 175 of those minutes leaving comments and 5 of them dinging instead of the other way around!

We'd love to hear your thoughts on the issue!

719 The Left  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:37:14am

re: #649 Rishonah

I have no patience whatsoever with those who live here, accepting the myriad gifts of this nation, without being loyal to the United States.

I have no patience whatsoever for those Reel Amurkins who like to accuse other Americans of 'not being loyal to the US' for failing to sign your Glorious Loyalty Oath. You know, by engaging in such acts as preferring Dijon mustard or voting Democrat.

720 gadlaw  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:38:25am

re: #716 Charles

This thread really woke up the bigoted sleepers.

It actually woke up the liberal apologists first when you posted it with the political slant that you put into your comments. And for the record this 'bigoted sleeper' (way to go with the slander there against people who disagree with you) is Hispanic, my brother is a noted Hispanic artist with whom I frequently disagree on issues of race and race based politics. I rather think that social order and ethnic pride are not on opposite sides of the issue but again, the melting pot doesn't mean giving up your culture but it does mean giving up putting that first and above your citizenship as an American.

721 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:38:29am

re: #681 changomo

Can you show me where in the article or video that Chuck posted that stated they were being hostile?

and if you feel wearing a shirt with an American Flag is hostile in itself - then we probably cannot see eye to eye.

There's been quite a bit of information posted in the course of this thread.

However, since you refer to Charles as 'Chuck', I'm sure we cannot see eye to eye.

722 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:40:39am

re: #720 gadlaw

It actually woke up the liberal apologists first when you posted it with the political slant that you put into your comments. And for the record this 'bigoted sleeper' (way to go with the slander there against people who disagree with you) is Hispanic, my brother is a noted Hispanic artist with whom I frequently disagree on issues of race and race based politics. I rather think that social order and ethnic pride are not on opposite sides of the issue but again, the melting pot doesn't mean giving up your culture but it does mean giving up putting that first and above your citizenship as an American.

I didn't call you a bigoted sleeper specifically, but if you want to apply the label to yourself, go ahead.

723 Obdicut  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:44:55am

re: #720 gadlaw

You know that Hispanic isn't a race, right?

724 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 8:57:42am

re: #720 gadlaw

It actually woke up the liberal apologists first when you posted it with the political slant that you put into your comments. And for the record this 'bigoted sleeper' (way to go with the slander there against people who disagree with you) is Hispanic, my brother is a noted Hispanic artist with whom I frequently disagree on issues of race and race based politics. I rather think that social order and ethnic pride are not on opposite sides of the issue but again, the melting pot doesn't mean giving up your culture but it does mean giving up putting that first and above your citizenship as an American.

LGF has a perfect mix of different ideologies bucko. You'll notice that there are members who respectfully disagreed with Charles. I might add that they were able to do so without being racist and trollish.

PS: No one here calls him Chuck and I've been here long enough to know that the only ones who call him that are stalkers and haters.

725 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 9:01:04am

re: #700 search4truth

just disagreeing with your comments among others. Not that I have to update you but I also updinged a few that I agreed with. I'm not pissed at all and even put in my own comment. Thankyou for asking, bee.

Yeah, my comment to SFZ about thinking alike was totally outrageous and downding worthy.

Troll.

726 Civil Sam  Fri, May 7, 2010 9:09:48am

re: #645 Charles

Really?

I wouldn't.

You seem to be really set on making people who disagree with you out to be bad people as well.

727 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 9:12:19am

re: #698 windsagio

This thread is freakin' amazing.

It's a disgrace, if you ask me. I will point out that many of the people who suddenly popped up to defend using the American flag as a bullying tool are people who haven't commented here for a long time. That's why I referred to "sleepers" above.

I'm kind of amazed they still remember their passwords.

728 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 9:19:39am

re: #723 Obdicut

You know that Hispanic isn't a race, right?

Some of his family and best friends are Hispanic! Of course he knows that silly! //

729 Mike DeGuzman  Fri, May 7, 2010 9:38:02am

re: #37 Kruk

What about when someone flies a Mexican flag above a US Flag?

[Link: crooksandliars.com...]

Welcome to Calexico. Mexican national flag flown above an upside-down U.S. flag during a high school student protest over immigration reforms.
[Link: www.snopes.com...]

730 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 10:04:55am

re: #729 Mike DeGuzman

Welcome to Calexico. Mexican national flag flown above an upside-down U.S. flag during a high school student protest over immigration reforms.
[Link: www.snopes.com...]

I got that chain email from my very racist and wingnutty uncle recently. Probably prompted by the newly resurrected immigration debates.

731 Radical Rafe  Fri, May 7, 2010 10:36:49am

re: #711 Charles


Well, there we are then. You think me a liar, or you must have some experience with Middle Tennessee school principals that you haven't shared here. Either way, whether you believe it is meaningless to me --- I know what I know. It's a beautiful Friday afternoon here in Music City, just as beautiful as last Friday, and we're all hoping that the weekend ahead does not bear any resemblance to the last one. Hope all of you have a great one.

732 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 7, 2010 10:58:56am

re: #729 Mike DeGuzman

Welcome to Calexico. Mexican national flag flown above an upside-down U.S. flag during a high school student protest over immigration reforms.
[Link: www.snopes.com...]

That was 4 years ago.
And it's pertinent to this situation . . .how, exactly?

733 Varek Raith  Fri, May 7, 2010 1:28:32pm

Wow.

734 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 1:46:54pm

re: #726 Civil Sam

Really?

I wouldn't.

You seem to be really set on making people who disagree with you out to be bad people as well.

You read a thread in which I've been accused of "self-loathing of my country" among other pretty serious insults, and what you get from that is that I'm trying to make my opponents out to be bad people?

Interesting.

735 gadlaw  Fri, May 7, 2010 1:51:28pm

re: #722 Charles

I didn't call you a bigoted sleeper specifically, but if you want to apply the label to yourself, go ahead.

Thereby employing one of the tricks of people that I think both of us despise. You know that business that Nietzsche said about looking too long into the abyss? I understand you have spent a lot of time under attack from loons on all sides and I respect your general level headedness about all of it. I would just say your generalization about people who disagree with you is very sad. It is possible to have a different opinion than you have and not be bigoted. You are at a point where you don't even acknowledge arguments on the other side. And of course the point about people who have not commented in a while, well you know, as the fellow who is on me for calling you 'Chuck' - which wasn't me by the way, folks who don't tend to agree here do tend to get jumped on so that's probably one of the reasons folks sign up, post a post then seeing themselves get jumped on, don't bother coming back. You know, FYI.

736 Civil Sam  Fri, May 7, 2010 2:17:20pm

re: #734 Charles

24 posts in you a start name calling and later say this thread has brought out the sleeper bigots. You didn't specify any particular person(s), so it comes across a little like a blanket accusation. You remark that if the situation were reversed, the people on the other side of the issue would be applauding and cheering. You wonder why I made that comment?

Interesting.

737 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:00:11pm

Here's a list of things we could be doing that would be more fun than reading the final flounce comments of this thread:

1-Go to a hospital emergency room and cheer everyone up.
2-Clean the bathrooms at your local mall.
3-Give your dog a permanent.
4-Squish a dandelion all over your face to see if you like butter.
5-Make a list of all the things you've forgotten.
6-Memorize Little Women.
7-Look in the phone book and see how many people have your name.
8-Call information and ask for your own number and make sure it's listed correctly.
9-Try to send yourself an email virus.
10-Plan what you're going to wear to work for the rest of the year.

738 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:03:53pm

re: #735 gadlaw

Was that a flounce? I'll be happy to block your account if that's what you're asking me to do.

739 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:04:48pm

re: #736 Civil Sam

Actually, I couldn't care less why you made that comment.

740 Civil Sam  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:19:25pm

re: #739 Charles

Ok, fair enough.

Though I wonder why you bothered to respond in the first place.

741 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:27:35pm

re: #706 andres

andres: thanks for your thoughtful response.

I agree with you that it is rash to make a judgement on incomplete pictures. However, everything I have read so far has stated that the 4 teenagers were not acting hostile - the only thing was they were wearing american flags.

You had asked me why I use UK teenagers versus American (and I moved the scenario to London). The reason is because this situation involves 4 students displaying the flag of the native country. That is why I say your analogy is backwards. Your situation involves 4 expats displaying the flag of an exterior country - this is the exact opposite of what happen here - you have 4 people displaying the flag of their home (this) country.

Again, I assert a more appropriate analogy is 4 students being banned in London for wearing British Flag shirts on the 4th of July.

As for the politically charge atmosphere - My argument has always been consistent - if the 4 boys (one of which is half Hispanic according to Charles' article) were hurling racial slurs, making derogatory comments/gestures - then of course they should be suspended. But if their only crime is wearing an Old Navy shirt with a Flag on it (watch the video on Charles' link) - then I think the outrage is appropriate.

742 Obdicut  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:28:50pm

re: #741 changomo

I agree with you that it is rash to make a judgement on incomplete pictures. However, everything I have read so far has stated that the 4 teenagers were not acting hostile - the only thing was they were wearing american flags.

So you haven't read, say, the stories?

743 schlagerman  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:29:17pm

re: #716 Charles

Yes Charles. Because anyone who disagrees with you must be bigoted. Give me a break.

744 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:32:06pm

re: #694 lamb chop

lamb chop: I understand your point of pro-active, pragmatic, abundance of caution approach.

Normally I would agree with certain situations, (A shirt that says "I support NAMBLA, or Mexico Sucks, etc)

But what exactly are we talking about here? A shirt with the American Flag. If you can't take a stand on that, then they might as well mandate uniforms from now on (which is a good idea any ways)

745 Civil Sam  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:36:31pm

On a lighter note, anyone else chuckle at the fact that the ad space on the top right is currently for theflagshirt.com and is advertising by showing a guy wearing a American flag polo shirt.

746 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:39:28pm

re: #743 schlagerman

Yes Charles. Because anyone who disagrees with you must be bigoted. Give me a break.

No, not anyone. Just some people.

747 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:44:09pm

re: #721 SanFranciscoZionist

SFZionist, I've asked many times (this is the third) can somebody put a link where it says the 4 boys did anything more then wear clothing with the American Flag on it?

I've already conceded to all my opponents here, that I agree with you all if the boys were acting like idiots. However, other then heresay (with no source) of some folks saying they were being hostile - I have not heard on the news that the 4 boys were hurling insults/being aggressive.

Thanks

and please, I've been labeled as some sort of reactionary stalker by members of this board for disagreeing with Charles (and because I called him Chuck) I mean no disrespect with my shorting of Charles (I often call my friends Robert as Bob or Nichoalas Nick) If you look at my posts - I have not insulted Charles, nor did I use "chuck" in a negative context...but to make sure no body makes a false assumption - I won't use the term "Chuck" anymore

748 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:44:22pm

hello to the continuing trickle of talking point androids dutifully following blog links from their yappy, shrieky masters!

749 Civil Sam  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:46:36pm

re: #748 WindUpBird

Just out of curiosity, am I one of these?

750 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:47:30pm

re: #748 WindUpBird

windupbird, your posts are not constructive - I've posted some respectful responses to your assertions - you have responded with insults with no substance. It does not speak well of you, I am not some guy in the middle of Montana with a fake nude Palin Poster on the wall next to my buckmaster 5000.

Again, I ask for the 4th time - is there a link source that shows that the 4 boys were hurling insults, attacking anybody, heck - giving Mexican's hard looks.

If they were - then I agree with Charles - they deserve to be suspended for being idiots.

751 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:50:35pm

re: #750 changomo

If they were - then I agree with Charles - they deserve to be suspended for being idiots.

You're agreeing with a point I never made. They weren't suspended, and I never said they should be.

I said the school authorities were justified in asking them to remove the clothes or go home, because they were trying to maintain order in the school. And that's all that happened. Nobody was suspended.

Good grief.

752 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:58:23pm

re: #749 Civil Sam

Just can't help but notice all these new names that are oh so motivated to come out of the woodwork for one single thread that happens to have a nice shiny link from elsewhere, that is being used as an outrageous outrage on the usual talking point stenphrapher shows like Levin, Ingraham, etc

just so happens!

753 Basho  Fri, May 7, 2010 3:58:45pm

re: #751 Charles

I said the school authorities were justified in asking them to remove the clothes

This is what happens everyday in religious schools, so conservatives shouldn't fuss :)

754 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:00:23pm

re: #708 spiderbucket

I disagree with Charles on this one. Free speech trumps everything. While I think the kids were trying to stir the pot, we need to show the world that in the USA - you have the right to be provocative and to make a statement.

If you don't understand how high school works, or that we've already gone over the fact that free speech is by no means absolute on a campus, perhaps you should return to high school and get your diploma.

755 windsagio  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:05:30pm

re: #752 WindUpBird

re: #754 WindUpBird

Troll feeder!

756 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:06:51pm

re: #755 windsagio

re: #754 WindUpBird

Troll feeder!

I know it, it's a bad habit of mine :D

Let's down out the sleepers with some Dwarf Fortress talk on my final day at the Excellent Shepherd

757 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:07:36pm

re: #751 Charles

Charles - Thanks for your response - I appreciate you addressing my thoughts.

I think they were suspended for that one day right? I mean being told to go home for 1 day is suspension in my book. (albeit a short one). Please do not take my response as a straw man, that was not my intention - let me rephrase.

If disagree with your opinion (as well as the administration) for asking them to remove their clothing in an effort to avoid any dis-order on just the basis of their clothing having an American flag) However, they may have acted aggressively (and everybody that disagrees with me may be right) - then I would agree with your opinion that it was right to send them home for that day.

Thanks

758 windsagio  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:08:10pm

re: #756 WindUpBird

I might have to give up on that fortress, even with the bathhouse of gore, the blood is simply out of control. My only hope now is a massive rainshower to clear out some of it.

The whole surface of the world is tracked with a mixture of dwarven, goblin, and trollish blood.

759 windsagio  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:09:07pm

re: #758 windsagio

Also, I can't get the drain plugged, I've had 3 dwarves washed to their doom

760 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:11:13pm

I'm going to go outside and enjoy the last of this beautiful day. I think this thread should end with nature and some poetry.

The birds outside my window are searching for worms

Amongst the dewy grass.

If they come up empty,

I think I can help.

I've got a tapeworm hanging out my ass.

761 mlong  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:11:17pm

Did the school remove the American flag from the flagpole and classrooms to avoid offending the poor Mexican students?

762 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:11:55pm

re: #760 beekiller

This thread will not die!

763 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:12:01pm

re: #751 Charles

I am on board with administrators spotting a potential problem and then de-escalating it quickly. Kids aren't in school to show off, they're in school to get an education. Celebrations are fine if they're harmonious, incitements and attacks on a celebration should be stopped before they start. That includes overt political statements worn on shirts about religion, lack of religion, bands, all of it. I'd support a dress code that said no writing or imagery on shirts at school, period.

764 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:12:44pm

re: #758 windsagio

I might have to give up on that fortress, even with the bathhouse of gore, the blood is simply out of control. My only hope now is a massive rainshower to clear out some of it.

The whole surface of the world is tracked with a mixture of dwarven, goblin, and trollish blood.

is the problem that the blood can't be removed? :D

765 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:12:58pm

windupbird:

While I concede you've faced an inordinate amount of trolls - please do not lump every dissenting opinion (especially done in a civil way) as that of a Troll.

Just for the record, I'm pro-choice (with some restrictions), pro-equal rights, I do not support Palin, I don't think Obama is the anti-christ born in Kenya, I do believe we need to address climate change pragmatically...if that makes me a right wing reactionary to you - then so be it.

766 windsagio  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:14:20pm

re: #764 WindUpBird

Yeah, its essentially a solid, so water can move it around some, but not actulaly dilute it and wash it away.

767 Basho  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:14:51pm

re: #761 mlong

Did the school remove the American flag from the flagpole and classrooms to avoid offending the poor Mexican students?

It was probably hung at half mast to mourn the death of free speech among 15 yr olds.

768 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:15:24pm

re: #766 windsagio

Yeah, its essentially a solid, so water can move it around some, but not actulaly dilute it and wash it away.

build over it!

"under these halls, the ruins of the bathhouse of horrors!"

769 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:16:10pm

re: #767 Basho

It was probably hung at half mast to mourn the death of free speech among 15 yr olds.

If I can't wear my Cradle of Filth t-shirt during pep rallies, THE REPUBLIC IS LOST

770 windsagio  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:16:30pm

re: #768 WindUpBird

haha the problem is that even with the bathhouse, theres still blood FREAKING EVERYWHERE!

Its like the domain of the Chaos gods, where you see huge deserts of dust, but its actually dried blood.

771 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:19:10pm

re: #770 windsagio

haha the problem is that even with the bathhouse, theres still blood FREAKING EVERYWHERE!

Its like the domain of the Chaos gods, where you see huge deserts of dust, but its actually dried blood.

This is the most metal of all Dorf Fortresses :D

Just build a wall around it, build a different fort next door, and sell tickets to it as a theme park

772 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:19:23pm

re: #763 WindUpBird

Windupbird - we're actually closer in opinion then I think you know. I agree the administration should take pro-active steps to avoid potentially dangerous situations - however - unless the 4 boys were doing more then just wearing a shirt with an American Flag - I have to respectfully disagree that the administration made the wrong move (if nothing more then then symbolically)

I don't believe that wearing a shirt with the American Flag (in America) is passive aggression regardless of the day. Perhaps if I were to do it during a Hugo Chavez rally or an Ahmidinjad speech in Iran....then yeah...

773 windsagio  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:23:55pm

re: #771 WindUpBird

If I can find some bauxite, I'm gonna make a huge pump stack and burn the world clean with magma.

774 gadlaw  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:24:48pm

re: #738 Charles

Was that a flounce? I'll be happy to block your account if that's what you're asking me to do.

Flounce? I think I have a Bingo now. Yes indeed, I've been called a racist, a bigot, a Republican, a Democrat now I'm gay. Great. And threatened with banning for saying what I believe to be the truth. Do whatever you want, it's your fiefdom here. And you prove my point again, you've spent so much time dealing with skinheads, Islamists and the extremes of both sides that your reflexive answer to my points is that I'm either bigoted or gay.

I come here because you usually provide more light than smoke and I usually can agree with your analysis and conclusions or at least understand you point of view. In this case, getting back to what I think the issue is - the practical way to assimilate is to not have authority figures - the school administration, kowtow to what are in fact racist sentiments of the Hispanics who have taken Cinco de Mayo and turned it into a day not to celebrate Hispanic heritage but to separate and intimidate nonhispanics. Having experienced racism myself by white people who consider me too Hispanic and by Hispanics who consider me too white your viewpoint seems to me to be naive.

As long as the idea is to have people in this country act as "Americans" with the spectrum of American political and cultural viewpoints, then we should not condone things which tend to Balkanize us. Cinco de Mayo is as culturally relevant as St. Patrick's Day and should be celebrated exactly that way. As it now, it's a day of confrontation and kicking kids out of school for wearing clothing with American flag themes on them on this 'special day' and it only does exactly what has happened - making it a flashpoint and a confrontation. My grandmother, who was born in the US, spoke mostly Spanish and spoke spanish to me. Her children went to school and learned English and learned to be American and were successful in life. We didn't lose any of the culture, we didn't lose any of the food. If this particular nonsense was going on then I doubt very much that any of that family success would have happened. The well meaning liberal ideas of how to deal with these things does more harm than good. The same as calling people who disagree with you racist and gay does no good toward a civil discussion.

775 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:24:59pm

re: #773 windsagio

If I can find some bauxite, I'm gonna make a huge pump stack and burn the world clean with magma.

hahahahahahahahah

Your own little train set Pompeii :D

776 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:31:04pm

whaddaya know...

the Principle just apologized to the 4 students....

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

What I find disturbing is 200 Mexican students skipped class and demanded respect. What I don't understand is are they 200 Mexican students not Americans too? How is it disrespectful for somebody to wear a shirt of YOUR country? Yes, yes..I know it's a day celebrating a battle of your ethnic background, but unless the 4 boys actively insulted them (which I have yet to see ANY shred of evidence of, in fact if they did why is the Principle apologizing then?) - what exactly are you insulted by?

windupbird, SFZionist - you've both asserted over and over again they were being aggressive (for the fifth time) can either one of you provide a link or source of your assertion?

***

Let me give another analogy, say you're in a sports team (Let's call it team A, you became a free agent and sign with Team B (because you feel they have better prospects to win you a championship). On a day where the stadium is commorating a player from Team A, 4 folks showed up with a Team B jersey (and did not act unruly) .... you being in Team B....would you be offended by these 4 folks?

777 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:31:05pm

re: #774 gadlaw

You understand that "flounce" has nothing to do with gay anything, it's a slang term on blogs, and this one in particular, that means you threw a digital tantrum about the direction the blog was taking or the opinions expressed therin, spilled all your walnuts over the internet, and left.

As for me, I'm actually gay, a REAL LIVE HOMO ON THE INTERNET, so please don't try and pull some OH NO I WAS CALLED GAY concern troll bullshit like that here, it's just going to be mocked. You weren't called gay, you were accused of being a whiner. Which you are.

You have the most entertaining persecution complex I've seen in some time, congratulations, you must be very proud.

778 Civil Sam  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:48:22pm

re: #752 WindUpBird

You care to quote my outrageously outraged comments? Nice way to avoid the question.

Sounds like you have gripe with conservative talk show hosts. Take it up with them and leave me out of your passive aggressive paranoid finger pointing.

779 windsagio  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:49:21pm

re: #775 WindUpBird

Sometimes its the only solution! The problem is Ican't even get it setup, because I can't make any magmaproof mechanisms >

780 Civil Sam  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:54:12pm

Reading through this again, the level of paranoia is surprising.

Perhaps there should be a purity test of some sort associated with registration followed up by a background check to make sure no one is here at at behest a some Lovecraftian neocon elder talk show host.

781 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 7, 2010 4:54:20pm

re: #776 changomo

whaddaya know...

the Principle just apologized to the 4 students...

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

What I find disturbing is 200 Mexican students skipped class and demanded respect. What I don't understand is are they 200 Mexican students not Americans too? How is it disrespectful for somebody to wear a shirt of YOUR country? Yes, yes..I know it's a day celebrating a battle of your ethnic background, but unless the 4 boys actively insulted them (which I have yet to see ANY shred of evidence of, in fact if they did why is the Principle apologizing then?) - what exactly are you insulted by?

windupbird, SFZionist - you've both asserted over and over again they were being aggressive (for the fifth time) can either one of you provide a link or source of your assertion?

***

Let me give another analogy, say you're in a sports team (Let's call it team A, you became a free agent and sign with Team B (because you feel they have better prospects to win you a championship). On a day where the stadium is commorating a player from Team A, 4 folks showed up with a Team B jersey (and did not act unruly) ... you being in Team B...would you be offended by these 4 folks?

Christ, you're still here? Please see.

A parent of two Live Oak students, Teresa Casillas, said the American-flag wearing students were yelling "We live in America!" at the brunch break. She said her children were upset by their behavior at school, calling it disrespectful.

This was discussed on the thread at length, but apparently looking at it is too much trouble.

782 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:10:08pm

re: #781 SanFranciscoZionist

Christ, you're still here? Please see.

A parent of two Live Oak students, Teresa Casillas, said the American-flag wearing students were yelling "We live in America!" at the brunch break. She said her children were upset by their behavior at school, calling it disrespectful.

This was discussed on the thread at length, but apparently looking at it is too much trouble.

To be fair, it is an awful lot of words and stuff to search, that takes calories and valuable energy to move the eyeballs and that little clicky scroll wheel on your mouse. Or the magic tracking surface if you're rocking a new iMac. It might be very exhausting for some people :D

783 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:12:44pm

re: #774 gadlaw

Oh brother.

784 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:24:25pm

re: #776 changomo

perhaps we have seen the last of you, now that SFZ has graciously answered your question

you're welcome to come upthread and participate in matters that don't involve outrageous outrages about nativism, but somehow I don't see that taking place

785 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:31:55pm

I saw this on MM's blog and thought the trolls of this thread might want to go:

Tea Party Patriots of Silicon Valley
invites you to a rally
Saturday in Morgan Hill
to Support the Patriotic Teens
Tea Party Patriots of Silicon Valley wants to let you know about a rally
this Saturday
May 8, 2010
9:30 am – 12:30 pm
3rd Street and Monterey Highway
downtown Morgan Hill
supporting the patriotic local teens
at Live Oak High School

786 gadlaw  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:37:24pm

re: #777 WindUpBird

You understand that "flounce" has nothing to do with gay anything, it's a slang term on blogs, and this one in particular, that means you threw a digital tantrum about the direction the blog was taking or the opinions expressed therin, spilled all your walnuts over the internet, and left.

As for me, I'm actually gay, a REAL LIVE HOMO ON THE INTERNET, so please don't try and pull some OH NO I WAS CALLED GAY concern troll bullshit like that here, it's just going to be mocked. You weren't called gay, you were accused of being a whiner. Which you are.

You have the most entertaining persecution complex I've seen in some time, congratulations, you must be very proud.

Thanks kindly for the proper slang blog term for flounce. I have never seen it used as anything other than a term used against gay people or people you want to accuse of being gay and as a way to belittle and minimize someone. It doesn't have anything to do with you being gay, congratulations on being comfortable with yourself and best of luck. I don't spend a lot of time reading when insults are traded back and forth so perhaps you are right as to the 'special' meaning of that term on blogs. As for whining, you know, when you provide a answer to someone's rhetorical question and you don't like the answer I guess 'whining' is a good enough term to use also when you have nothing to say to the point. Another way to dismiss the point being made. Why would I whine and why would I care? I express my point of view, rather than argue the point your basic form of discussion is to slander or otherwise attempt to belittle someone. When they point that out, call them whiners. But you saying so doesn't make it so. And now, again rather than discuss the points, you diagnose me a mental illness. Very entertaining and more reflective of you than me. I give my point of view, give my reasons for having my point of view. The thoughtful response is that I'm a gay bigot racist - I'm paraphrasing and shortening to the salient points here. I'm not saying please feel sorry for me or woe is me, I'm saying that's the level of discussion here. That's my opinion. Not trolling, just not letting the slanders just sit there unanswered.

787 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:40:26pm

re: #786 gadlaw

You might enjoy this cartoon!
[Link: xkcd.com...]

788 jamesfirecat  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:43:01pm

re: #786 gadlaw

Thanks kindly for the proper slang blog term for flounce. I have never seen it used as anything other than a term used against gay people or people you want to accuse of being gay and as a way to belittle and minimize someone. It doesn't have anything to do with you being gay, congratulations on being comfortable with yourself and best of luck. I don't spend a lot of time reading when insults are traded back and forth so perhaps you are right as to the 'special' meaning of that term on blogs. As for whining, you know, when you provide a answer to someone's rhetorical question and you don't like the answer I guess 'whining' is a good enough term to use also when you have nothing to say to the point. Another way to dismiss the point being made. Why would I whine and why would I care? I express my point of view, rather than argue the point your basic form of discussion is to slander or otherwise attempt to belittle someone. When they point that out, call them whiners. But you saying so doesn't make it so. And now, again rather than discuss the points, you diagnose me a mental illness. Very entertaining and more reflective of you than me. I give my point of view, give my reasons for having my point of view. The thoughtful response is that I'm a gay bigot racist - I'm paraphrasing and shortening to the salient points here. I'm not saying please feel sorry for me or woe is me, I'm saying that's the level of discussion here. That's my opinion. Not trolling, just not letting the slanders just sit there unanswered.

If the level of discussion sucks on this thread its because it's been going on for so long that people are just f***ing sick of it.

You should try other threads people tend to be much nicer when you jump in near the start of an argument!

789 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:43:38pm

re: #787 Floral Giraffe

You might enjoy this cartoon!
[Link: xkcd.com...]

LMAO!

790 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:51:32pm

re: #788 jamesfirecat

If the level of discussion sucks on this thread its because it's been going on for so long that people are just f***ing sick of it.

You should try other threads people tend to be much nicer when you jump in near the start of an argument!

Image: Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

791 gadlaw  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:52:53pm

re: #576 WindUpBird

why do nativist conservative types always wear hats like the one in your avatar? Is it the appearance of noble toughness?

Yeah, sorry I didn't see that particular slander. Well, I'm on Pikes Peak, hiking up about halfway and that hat is a very nice straw hat that keeps the sun off my head. Pikes Peak is in Colorado, where we wear hats like that without being laughed at. And this 'nativist conservative' type voted for Obama, I wear my Obama shirt at great personal hazard here in Colorado Springs and I voted for Kerry last time. Again with the slanderous assumptions based on one issue. Not all Hispanics believe and think the same way.

792 windsagio  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:56:38pm

re: #791 gadlaw

Did WUB cover the chinbeard?

793 jamesfirecat  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:57:06pm

re: #791 gadlaw

Yeah, sorry I didn't see that particular slander. Well, I'm on Pikes Peak, hiking up about halfway and that hat is a very nice straw hat that keeps the sun off my head. Pikes Peak is in Colorado, where we wear hats like that without being laughed at. And this 'nativist conservative' type voted for Obama, I wear my Obama shirt at great personal hazard here in Colorado Springs and I voted for Kerry last time. Again with the slanderous assumptions based on one issue. Not all Hispanics believe and think the same way.

re: #791 gadlaw

Yeah, sorry I didn't see that particular slander. Well, I'm on Pikes Peak, hiking up about halfway and that hat is a very nice straw hat that keeps the sun off my head. Pikes Peak is in Colorado, where we wear hats like that without being laughed at. And this 'nativist conservative' type voted for Obama, I wear my Obama shirt at great personal hazard here in Colorado Springs and I voted for Kerry last time. Again with the slanderous assumptions based on one issue. Not all Hispanics believe and think the same way.

Just down dinged bird for what was a truly uncalled for comment.

By the way if you want to show us the other side of you, once again there are threads going on all over the place all the time, you don't have to cling to this one to the bitter end.

"I'll never let go, Jack. I promise!"

I'd gladly welcome have another Obama voting liberal being present on other threads we can work together and transform LGF into Washington Monthly!

794 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 5:58:11pm

re: #793 jamesfirecat

haha it's fine, I'm in a mood :D

795 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:01:14pm

re: #792 windsagio

Did WUB cover the chinbeard?

Frankly, I was hypnotized by it

it seized hold of me through the internet, I had to use all my psychic strength to break free!

796 vitaly  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:03:30pm

total lack of logic.

1. why wearing a us flag (any time, incl may 5) would be offensive to anyone in the us?

2. these hypothetical mexican kids are supposed to be either legal immigrants or american citizens. why would they be offended by the us flag? it is their flag as well. otherwise, why did they come here (if they r aliens)?

3. on the other hand, wearing mexican (or any other flag) on the 4th of july might be construed as offensive in the us. not in mexico.

4. similarly, wearing the us flag on may 5 cannot be offensive in the us, but might be in mexico.

797 freetoken  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:05:34pm

re: #796 vitaly

Are you intentionally overlooking what people have stated upstream, that the 5 in question were doing more than just passively wearing imprints of the US flag?

798 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:05:52pm

re: #796 vitaly

Did you read the thread? I believe the answers to your questions can be found in the many posts above!

799 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:08:22pm

re: #797 freetoken

Are you intentionally overlooking what people have stated upstream, that the 5 in question were doing more than just passively wearing imprints of the US flag?

It doesn't matter to them. This topic brought them out and we won't see them posting in other threads...until Charles posts another entry regarding immigration. ;)

800 Rishonah  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:11:18pm

re: #719 iceweasel

I have no patience whatsoever for those Reel Amurkins who like to accuse other Americans of 'not being loyal to the US' for failing to sign your Glorious Loyalty Oath. You know, by engaging in such acts as preferring Dijon mustard or voting Democrat.

I voted for Obama in 2008, did you?

801 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:13:16pm

re: #796 vitaly

ANOTHER TALKING POINT DROID

God damn, did you guys all run out of weed or what? Go back to Free Republic and talk about your imaginary gun collection or something jesus

802 jamesfirecat  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:14:18pm

re: #800 Rishonah

I voted for Obama in 2008, did you?

I almost wanted to upding your post for the level of masterful control of surrealism and irony not seen this side of The Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog.

"I'm over there!"

803 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:14:41pm

re: #800 Rishonah

I voted for Obama in 2008, did you?


So tell me dude, who was a better boss? Barnum or Bailey?

804 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:15:53pm

re: #797 freetoken

Are you intentionally overlooking what people have stated upstream, that the 5 in question were doing more than just passively wearing imprints of the US flag?

You can't fix dumb, sadly :D

805 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:23:08pm

re: #785 beekiller

I saw this on MM's blog and thought the trolls of this thread might want to go:

Tea Party Patriots of Silicon Valley
invites you to a rally
Saturday in Morgan Hill
to Support the Patriotic Teens
Tea Party Patriots of Silicon Valley wants to let you know about a rally
this Saturday
May 8, 2010
9:30 am – 12:30 pm
3rd Street and Monterey Highway
downtown Morgan Hill
supporting the patriotic local teens
at Live Oak High School

I'm sorry, but there's something about the phrase "Tea Party Patriots of Silicon Valley" that blows my mind. Maybe you have to live in Northern California.

806 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:24:52pm

re: #800 Rishonah

I voted for Obama in 2008, did you?

Well, I did. After some debate in the booth.

807 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:28:14pm

re: #805 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sorry, but there's something about the phrase "Tea Party Patriots of Silicon Valley" that blows my mind. Maybe you have to live in Northern California.

haha! Who knows? It is apparently possible to be obsessed with Mexicans and also be a liberal who voted for Obama.

808 sagehen  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:41:20pm

re: #796 vitaly

total lack of logic.

1. why wearing a us flag (any time, incl may 5) would be offensive to anyone in the us?

2. these hypothetical mexican kids are supposed to be either legal immigrants or american citizens. why would they be offended by the us flag? it is their flag as well. otherwise, why did they come here (if they r aliens)?

3. on the other hand, wearing mexican (or any other flag) on the 4th of july might be construed as offensive in the us. not in mexico.

4. similarly, wearing the us flag on may 5 cannot be offensive in the us, but might be in mexico.


In my city, we have many ethnic days (St Patrick's, Columbus Day, Puerto Rican Day, West Indian Day, Israeli Independence Day, etc). On those days there's a parade, a bunch of food vendors keeping with the theme, the restaurants do some special decor and menu and serve a drink they maybe wouldn't on other days, etc. People of all ethnicities go to these to wave whoever's flag, eat their food, dance to their music, as an expression of "you're a valued part of our great mosaic, we're so happy you've come here to be part of us."

It sounds to me like this school was attempting to do something similar. There was a special menu, a dance performance, and so on.

Kids going out of their way, as a group, to conspicuously wear the stars & stripes on that day, even if all they did was sit there and smirk, is to say "we're not participating because you're really not valued, and we're not happy you're here."

They intended to offend.

809 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, May 7, 2010 6:47:08pm

re: #807 beekiller

There are LOTS of people like that in Southern California. LOTS.

810 Mark Pennington  Fri, May 7, 2010 7:22:34pm

I'm thinking this thread will die now since HotAir has 3 or 4 good Mexican bashing threads going over there.

811 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, May 7, 2010 7:32:49pm

re: #805 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sorry, but there's something about the phrase "Tea Party Patriots of Silicon Valley" that blows my mind. Maybe you have to live in Northern California.

It does raise the question if the Testicles Resting On Chin Party™ is authentic when they are filled with silicon.

There's a point or a joke or subtext in there somewhere, but I can;t find it. I just wanted to write Testicles Resting On Chin Party™ again.

Testicles Resting On Chin Party™

812 andres  Fri, May 7, 2010 7:36:08pm

re: #741 changomo

andres: thanks for your thoughtful response.

I agree with you that it is rash to make a judgement on incomplete pictures. However, everything I have read so far has stated that the 4 teenagers were not acting hostile - the only thing was they were wearing american flags.

You don't have to act hostile to be incendiary. The current political environment takes care of the rest.

You had asked me why I use UK teenagers versus American (and I moved the scenario to London). The reason is because this situation involves 4 students displaying the flag of the native country. That is why I say your analogy is backwards. Your situation involves 4 expats displaying the flag of an exterior country - this is the exact opposite of what happen here - you have 4 people displaying the flag of their home (this) country.

Again, it doesn't equal the situation because you are putting everyone in a political vacuum. There is an unstable political environment, due to the rampant Nativism, which I've been linking for quite a while now.

Again, I assert a more appropriate analogy is 4 students being banned in London for wearing British Flag shirts on the 4th of July.

Unless you replicate the current political environment on your UK example, it's not the same thing. You just want to pull their actions into a vacuum to excuse them. Do I really have to link again to the "Report an Illegal day" campaign again?

As for the politically charge atmosphere - My argument has always been consistent - if the 4 boys (one of which is half Hispanic according to Charles' article) were hurling racial slurs, making derogatory comments/gestures - then of course they should be suspended. But if their only crime is wearing an Old Navy shirt with a Flag on it (watch the video on Charles' link) - then I think the outrage is appropriate.

1) They were never suspended. They were asked to reverse the clothing, remove where possible or leave.

2) Due to the political atmosphere, I don't believe in coincidence.

3) Their actions are perfectly acceptable outside school. Inside a school is up to the principal to make the call. And in this case, the principal made the call he thought was correct. Whether it was or not (as I've stated, he's both right and wrong), he made the decision on what he thought was best for the school.

813 andres  Fri, May 7, 2010 7:38:05pm

re: #781 SanFranciscoZionist

Christ, you're still here? Please see.

A parent of two Live Oak students, Teresa Casillas, said the American-flag wearing students were yelling "We live in America!" at the brunch break. She said her children were upset by their behavior at school, calling it disrespectful.

This was discussed on the thread at length, but apparently looking at it is too much trouble.

This puts everything into a new light.

814 Obdicut  Fri, May 7, 2010 10:38:38pm

re: #786 gadlaw

Dude, really, nobody called you gay. It's okay.

815 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 11:45:46pm

SF Zionist, Windupbird,

Thank you, for posting that - it was the first time I saw on this thread a link to anything that stated anything more they were doing anything else then just wearing a shirt with the American Flag.

I consider myself intellectually honest and consistent, I said many times since my first post that that if they were doing more then just sporting a flag - I would agree with Charles and everybody else. You've posted the evidence, so I have no problem conceding to you.

However, both of you mentioned that the link you posted was listed earlier in the thread - I've followed this thread since post #1, could you refresh my memory and tell me what message number the link was posted at? I simply want to see where I missed it. Yes, windupbird - it is sometimes hard to miss a link in a thread with 800+ comments. (with or without a nifty new mouse)

Looking forward to your reply.

816 changomo  Fri, May 7, 2010 11:54:42pm

Andres, again thank you for your response to my post.

I understand you believe there are moments where wearing an American flag in America would be insensitive - particularly during the current happenings in Arizona - However, I make a clear distinction between passively wearing clothing with American flags, and actively shouting "We Live In America" (as these boys did)

Many people here (and please at least be honest with yourself) are willing to ban the American flag shirt on certain events/days - I am not - I would never ban a shirt with an American flag - I would sanction behavior - that has been my point since post #1.

You are correct, they were not officially suspended, they were simply asked to reverse their clothing or leave for one day (I consider that technically a 1 day suspension) - you're also right that these boys were purposely trying to incite violence (if the Mother's account is accurate) - I conceed fully - however, I made all my judgements with the link Charles posted, and had said multiple times my view would change if somebody could post evidence they were being hostile (thank you SFZionist, P.S. if you could post the message # where you had linked that article before my first post, I would be very grateful)

817 changomo  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:15:03am

sorry - have to retract my concessions folks....

hmm... the plot thickens....intrigued I did a little bit more digging....

This was released late Friday evening.

According Morgan Hill Unified School District Superintendent Wesley Smith, administrators could find "no conclusive evidence that the students wearing the flag clothing were taunting or teasing Hispanic students" at Live Oak on Cinco de Mayo.

[Link: kliv.com...]

By the way - this was posted one full day after the link you posted SFZionist, Windupbird...and after an official investigation was launched.

Looks like my position swings back....I retract my concession based on this new evidence. I do give more weight to an official investigation versus heresay ...

Again, I stand by my opinion - if a person is simply wearing an American flag in America (doing nothing else other then that) - and they are censored (regardless of the environment) - (and you folks find this a good thing) - We can simply agree to disagree

Also an excellent article today in US News and World Report (it addresses all my points beautifully)

[Link: www.usnews.com...]

818 andres  Sat, May 8, 2010 7:26:56am

re: #816 changomo

re: #817 changomo

Still losing the sight of the forest to see the trees? As I asked in #285, 5 or 6 years ago, the actions of these 5 kids would have not rise any problem.

How did things change in 5 years? The attempted Bush Immigration Reform brought many cookoos out of their nests. Ever since, Nativism has been gaining support. Not enough to be a majority, but enough to stay relevant and to be able to pass idiocies as Arizona's SB-1700. The environment is charged enough with acts like this. And, I repeat again, high schools don't live in a political vacuum. I've been bringing this time, and time again.

And as I noted earlier, you don't have to act hostile to be incendiary. I can go to Maricopa, and speak Spanish exclusively. I'm not acting hostile, but, due to the political environment Maricopa is involved right now, it's highly possible I'd get a little roughed up.

819 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, May 8, 2010 9:59:30am

It's a dead thread, but what th' hay, I'm going to post this anyway.

Scott Herhold, a columnist for the San Jose Mercury News
"Herhold: Morgan Hill school wrong in flag shirt flap"

For the record, Herhold hates the Tea Parties with a passion.

Herhold makes some damned good points -- one of which is that two of the boys who were wearing those shirts/bandanas are of Mexican ancestry.

820 bratwurst  Sat, May 8, 2010 10:25:07am

re: #816 changomo

Many people here (and please at least be honest with yourself) are willing to ban the American flag shirt on certain events/days

You lack of reading comprehension is breathtaking.

821 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 8, 2010 10:46:50am

re: #819 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That fact has been discussed already extensively throughout the thread. And as I posted in the other thread:

Why does that matter? Is that supposed to be an automatic exoneration of them? Because they have Mexican heritage, they can't possibly be suspected of baiting other Mexicans?

Sorry, real life doesn't work that way.

I see this excuse pulled out over and over, and to be honest, it makes me tired.

A conference featuring a white nationalist can't possibly be a racist event, because they also had a black speaker. The tea parties can't possibly have any racists, because there are a few black people in the audience. The GOP can't possibly have any ties to racism, because they have a black chairman. And now, we can't possibly suspect these kids of behaving provocatively toward Mexicans, because they had Mexican heritage.

I can go on a long time listing more examples. This is a bogus argument. Black people can and do sometimes ally themselves with white nationalists. And Mexican heritage is not an automatic excuse card for behaving badly toward Mexican students. People are more complicated than that.

822 jamesfirecat  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:06:28am

re: #821 Charles

That fact has been discussed already extensively throughout the thread. And as I posted in the other thread:

Why does that matter? Is that supposed to be an automatic exoneration of them? Because they have Mexican heritage, they can't possibly be suspected of baiting other Mexicans?

Sorry, real life doesn't work that way.

I see this excuse pulled out over and over, and to be honest, it makes me tired.

A conference featuring a white nationalist can't possibly be a racist event, because they also had a black speaker. The tea parties can't possibly have any racists, because there are a few black people in the audience. The GOP can't possibly have any ties to racism, because they have a black chairman. And now, we can't possibly suspect these kids of behaving provocatively toward Mexicans, because they had Mexican heritage.

I can go on a long time listing more examples. This is a bogus argument. Black people can and do sometimes ally themselves with white nationalists. And Mexican heritage is not an automatic excuse card for behaving badly toward Mexican students. People are more complicated than that.

Amen- keep in mind people, hybrids do not always have warm fuzzy feelings towards both sides of their family tree.

Oh heck let me spell it out for you.

Glenn Beck says Obama is racist towards white people.

Obama is half white.

There are plenty of stronger arguments out there for why Glenn Beck is a loon, but if your chasiting us for saying that a part Mexican might be racist towards other Mexicans is impossible what should happen to Glenn Beck for saying it on national TV?

Is it at least possible that maybe these children feel caught between two worlds and so in order to come to a conclusion they want to deny the existence of one not only within themselves but out in the rest of the world as large?

Hopefully this will close the book on this thread and maybe we can get some new ones started today...

823 im_gumby_damnit  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:23:41pm

I guess I approach this one from a purely legal perspective (as a lawyer). Under existing case law, these students had a clear First Amendment right to wear these t-shirts. (The school loses this one 10 out of 10 times if it goes to court.) Similarly, Mexican American students have the right to wear a Mexican flag t-shirt whenever they please.

Now, I do agree with Charles that the shirts were intentionally worn by these students to be provocative. However, provocative speech is no less protected by the Constitution. In many ways, such speech is near and dear to the purposes behind the First Amendment.

As far as school safety goes, I believe it is reasonable to expect and require students to respect the rights of others, even when they are being provoked by something they see on a fellow student's t-shirt. It is improper to suppress the rights of some students out of a concern (probably misplaced in this case) that other students won't be able to control themselves and refrain from violence in the face of the expression of an idea or concept.

824 wrenchwench  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:42:24pm

re: #823 im_gumby_damnit

All but one year of my schooling was in California, and I, as a minor, definitely did not have all the rights of adults.

What kind of law do you practice? In what state?

825 wrenchwench  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:48:12pm

re: #817 changomo

Also an excellent article today in US News and World Report (it addresses all my points beautifully)

That's not "an ... article today in US News and World Report", it's a blog post under "Opinion" at their website.

826 im_gumby_damnit  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:54:57pm

re: #824 wrenchwench

There is a whole body of case law balancing the various interests of school systems (e.g., school safety) with the First Amendment rights of students. A google search will point you to some informative articles on this subject. I practice in commercial litigation. My practice takes me all over the country.

827 changomo  Sat, May 8, 2010 9:34:35pm

re: #818 andres

Andres, thanks again for your continued engagement. You're absolutely right that the atmosphere in politically charged right now. I couldn't agree with you more. As for as the legislation in the last 5 years, that could be the topic for a whole different thread - so I won't go there - but in basis - I agree that the legislation has created a delicate atmosphere. I have never said the atmosphere was not charged.

I also in my last post attempted state your position to let you know that I am not unclear on your status on the issue. I said that I understand people here are willing to censor an American flag shirt in America in certain situations in America (regardless of the person's wearing the shirt's individual behavior).... in essence people here consider wearing a shirt "passive" aggression (such as speaking Spanish in your Maricopa example)

That's why I would never ban speaking Spanish in certain sensitive regions in America - do you see now who is missing the forest for the trees? Again, using the your analogy - I simply flip it and you can instantly see the absurdity of the ban (which the School District also eventually saw and made the determination to apologize to the student after the investigation showed the 4 students did not curse, or act aggressively to the Mexican students)

I understand you and other people's positions here, I simply disagree with them. I would never selectively ban a student in school wearing a shirt with an American flag on it (regardless of who politically charged the atmosphere is) - As I stated, if all forms of passive advertisement is banned (and uniforms are standard) - hey that's one thing, or things that are obviously offensive (a shirt with profanity) that's also understandable, but a shirt with the flag of our country in our country? That's where I draw the line. You disagree, because you feel in certain sensitive situations - you should ban the American flag in America to prevent conflict - I disagree with that as strongly as I would disagree banning Spanish (or even suggesting you don't speak it) in certain areas of America where doing so would (as in your own words) "rough you up"

828 changomo  Sat, May 8, 2010 9:35:45pm

re: #820 bratwurst

bratwurst, how else do you interpret the support of not allowing a person wearing the American flag on their shirt on a certain day? Could you please tell me where I had mis represented some poster's positions here?

829 changomo  Sat, May 8, 2010 9:43:36pm

re: #825 wrenchwench

wrenchwrench,

seriously, you're arguing on my syntax I because I called this link 'article' versus a 'blog post'?

[Link: www.usnews.com...]

seriously?

but, it doesn't really matter to me if it's an "article" to you or a "blog post" - since the crux of this thread is not what qualifies as a true article - but if it would make you feel better, yes wrenchwrench I'm wrong you're right - it's a "Blog Post" in the "Opinion" section of the U.S. and World Report.

Thank You

830 changomo  Sat, May 8, 2010 9:48:23pm

re: #819 pre-Boomer Marine brat

excellent article-pre-Boomer Marine brat, I couldn't have put it better myself - I've been saying the same things all thread.

I'm glad others are speaking on my behalf in articles (here ya go bratbrat) all over the nation.

[Link: www.mercurynews.com...]

831 changomo  Sat, May 8, 2010 9:58:35pm

re: #821 Charles

Charles, I agree with you - even if 2 of the 4 boys had Mexican heritage, it does not automatically qualify their actions - the crux of your point is right on.

I think the reason people bring it up is to show (unless 2 of the 4 boys are self-loathing) - the boys wore the flag because if their pride in America, not because of racist intentions toward the Mexicans...again - that would make half those boys self-loathing.

I think it's interesting that nobody has addressed that the School District started an official investigation and found (in their own words) :

"administrators could find no conclusive evidence that the students wearing the flag clothing were taunting or teasing Hispanic students"

Source: [Link: kliv.com...]

I mean that's the crux of the situation here. I think most people agree if they were acting like idiots - they should have been sent home - (I have consistently stated that I would) - but the administrators found the no evidence (which I would suspect would prompt them to issue the apology they did)

I know SFZionist, windupbird posted that article where the parent said that the 4 boys said "We live in America" - but it according to the article itself heresay (which is in-admissible in court) - and without context, did they say, "we live in America, so I feel I should be allowed to wear a shirt with an American flag?" Or did they say "Go back home Mexican, we live in America?"

Either way - I do have to base my opinion on what facts are availing (that are not heresay) and when the School Administrators say they have no evidence of insults, teasing, etc - I go with that -

832 changomo  Sat, May 8, 2010 9:59:59pm

re: #830 changomo

oops - mean bratbrat = wrenchwrench.

Thanks

833 Joven  Sat, May 8, 2010 10:17:16pm

Folks, Cinco de Mayo is not a Mexican holiday. It was dreamed up by professors at CSU East LA. Mexicans (in Mexico) do not care nor celebrate it. Mexican Independence day is September 16 and results in a huge celebration in all of Mexico and in Los Angeles. Cinco de Mayo is a alcoholic beverage companies attempt to sell more product. There is no excuse to punish student for displaying our national symbol on a day that is just an excuse to drink Corona beer. If some Latinos were offended and wished to become violent, the kids with the flags should have been protected for exercising their 1st amendment rights.

834 Joven  Sun, May 9, 2010 12:41:00am

Well I finally read the report in which a parent of 2 student said that some of the 4 problematic student in question said, actually yelled, "We live in America!". It is too bad this didn't make it into the first article. That should have been sufficient, to suspend them, especially with their somewhat provocative clothing. It seems like a pretty clear cut act of hostility, since I'm sure the Mexican-American students knew where they lived.

BTW, I still think celebrating Cinco de Mayo instead of 16 Septiembre is dumb.

835 changomo  Sun, May 9, 2010 8:38:21am

hi Joven, I had the same reaction until I saw the results of the official investigation by the adminstration see msg#831

836 bratwurst  Sun, May 9, 2010 11:25:51am

re: #828 changomo

bratwurst, how else do you interpret the support of not allowing a person wearing the American flag on their shirt on a certain day? Could you please tell me where I had mis represented some poster's positions here?

I think a school official making an attempt to defuse a potential confrontation is a far cry from "THEY ARE TRYING TO BAN THE FLAG ON CERTAIN DAYS!!!!!!!". It is certainly possible that the official in question may have overreacted. Even so, people (like yourself) who try to spin this into something it isn't are being willfully ignorant.

837 Graybeard  Sun, May 9, 2010 12:17:41pm

"We live in America!" is an odd thing to say spontaneously. If one or more of the students did say something like that (at whatever volume level), perhaps in was in response to something said to them.

If the students misbehaved in any way, that makes it all the more stupid that the principal made an issue of the clothing, rather than just give them a one day suspension for whatever misconduct they committed.

838 Graybeard  Sun, May 9, 2010 1:17:49pm

re: #836 bratwurst

I think a school official making an attempt to defuse a potential confrontation is a far cry from "THEY ARE TRYING TO BAN THE FLAG ON CERTAIN DAYS!!!". It is certainly possible that the official in question may have overreacted. Even so, people (like yourself) who try to spin this into something it isn't are being willfully ignorant.

I think you are ignoring much of what has been said.

In his initial post, Charles seemed to think that 'never wear American flag images on Cinco de Mayo' is something we should all have learned in kindergarten. He implied that violating this prohibition is sufficient proof that the students intended to 'create conflict and bad feelings'.

Unless the students and their parents are lying about what the principal and vice-principal said to them (which so far no one has claimed), the confrontation they feared was exactly that some students would try to violently enforce a ban on wearing American flag images.

839 Graybeard  Sun, May 9, 2010 1:50:11pm

re: #523 SanFranciscoZionist

And the parents lost any credibility with me once they landed on Laura Ingraham's show a day later, talking about 'European' students.

Out of a possible ten parents, two were on the show.

It was the vice principal, Miguel Rodriguez, who made a point of telling the parents that it was 'European' students who told him there would be 'some drama'. Ingraham made fun of him for that, saying it was 'oddly worded'.

Ingraham is a piece of work, even for a talk show host, but I don't agree that this reflects badly on all her guests.

840 changomo  Sun, May 9, 2010 4:39:14pm

re: #836 bratwurst

your're right bratwurst - it's was not originally intentionally banning the flag on certain days, it just turned out that way after

According the the official investigation by the School District - see message #831) - the VP decided that a shirt with a flag on it (was in itself) passive violence. - There was no evidence, let me repeat - no evidence that the 4 boys acted in appropriately. I"m sure you'll have a lot of heresay, but the fact is the OFFICIAL investigation found no evidence and the VP APOLOGIZED to the 4 boys...hardly something you would do if the 4 boys acted hostile.

I suggest you read the thread (if you got the time) from #1, a lot of my posts cover some repeated rebuttals.

Thanks

841 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 9, 2010 8:10:22pm

re: #838 Graybeard

In his initial post, Charles seemed to think that 'never wear American flag images on Cinco de Mayo' is something we should all have learned in kindergarten. He implied that violating this prohibition is sufficient proof that the students intended to 'create conflict and bad feelings'.

That is an utterly ridiculous, deliberately distorted misstatement of what I wrote.

842 Varek Raith  Mon, May 10, 2010 12:56:53am

Good grief.

843 Graybeard  Mon, May 10, 2010 1:35:44am

re: #841 Charles

That is an utterly ridiculous, deliberately distorted misstatement of what I wrote.

It that's not what you meant to say I'm glad to hear it. It's certainly the message I received.

'What school principal wouldn’t have done the same thing? Don’t they have a responsibility to maintain order in school? And if so, isn’t it blindingly obvious that they need to take action when students do things that are designed to create conflict and bad feelings?'

I read the post over more than once, to make sure I understood on what evidence this accusation was made. As far as I could tell, the bare fact that the students wore the flag shirts on Cinco de Mayo was the only such evidence.

That the incident took place on Cinco de Mayo was also presented as the key fact that made it a 'nontroversy' instead of possibly an outrage.

My answer to the question 'What school principal wouldn’t have done the same thing?' is 'One with common sense.' Anyone with a glimmer of cultural understanding would have known that making an issue of the flag shirts would inflame matters further.

844 jamesfirecat  Mon, May 10, 2010 8:34:14am

re: #843 Graybeard

It that's not what you meant to say I'm glad to hear it. It's certainly the message I received.

'What school principal wouldn’t have done the same thing? Don’t they have a responsibility to maintain order in school? And if so, isn’t it blindingly obvious that they need to take action when students do things that are designed to create conflict and bad feelings?'

I read the post over more than once, to make sure I understood on what evidence this accusation was made. As far as I could tell, the bare fact that the students wore the flag shirts on Cinco de Mayo was the only such evidence.

That the incident took place on Cinco de Mayo was also presented as the key fact that made it a 'nontroversy' instead of possibly an outrage.

My answer to the question 'What school principal wouldn’t have done the same thing?' is 'One with common sense.' Anyone with a glimmer of cultural understanding would have known that making an issue of the flag shirts would inflame matters further.

A good Principal's loyalty should be to his student's not to his school or to his school board.

So I fail to see how a principle with common sense could weigh "someone student getting hurt" against "starting political controversy" and decide it was better to allow one of his charges to be harmed on school grounds than to rock the boat.

Besides if someone had actually gotten worse the matters would be inflamed about 1000 times as badly as they are now.

845 wrenchwench  Mon, May 10, 2010 10:14:57am

re: #840 changomo

your're right bratwurst - it's was not originally intentionally banning the flag on certain days, it just turned out that way after

According the the official investigation by the School District - see message #831) - the VP decided that a shirt with a flag on it (was in itself) passive violence. - There was no evidence, let me repeat - no evidence that the 4 boys acted in appropriately. I"m sure you'll have a lot of heresay, but the fact is the OFFICIAL investigation found no evidence and the VP APOLOGIZED to the 4 boys...hardly something you would do if the 4 boys acted hostile.

I suggest you read the thread (if you got the time) from #1, a lot of my posts cover some repeated rebuttals.

Thanks

#831 does not link to an official investigation report by the school district. It links to a radio station's website. The article on that page quotes the Superintendent's characterization of the report. Here's the final paragraph:

Smith says administrators could find no conclusive evidence that the students wearing the flag clothing were taunting or teasing Hispanic students at Live Oak on Cinco de Mayo.

That doesn't say "no evidence". There's a qualifier in there.

Re: #829, I said nothing about your syntax. If you don't know the difference between an opinion piece (your second link at #817), a column (your link at #830), and a news article (your first link at #817, although its a lousy article. There's no date anywhere on the page, and no links to sources.), you're way over your head here. You might start with a dictionary, or if you want to get into it deeply, try this classic.

Lastly, there is only one "r" in wrenchwench.

846 Joven  Mon, May 10, 2010 11:56:46am

Please excuse me for a little thread jack. This incident reminded me of the Coke vs. Pepsi t-shirt outrage. A high school in Georgia back in '98 was trying to win a cash prize from Coca Cola. I think it was around $10k. The schools in the area were to demonstrate "Coke Spirit". The principal of the school in question required that all students were to wear Coke t-shirts. Some were to wear special shirts that when a group photo was to be taken would spell in the photo "Coke". These had all been provided by Coca Cola.
At the last minute before the photo two students removed the Coke shirts, thus revealing, Pepsi shirts, gasp! They ruined the ideal Coke/high School photo.

Needless to say both students were suspended. They took that suspension time to go on national TV to express the outrage. Coke took the whole incident in stride. They said that high school kids are always doing something to prank people and this was no big deal. They also said that many people who come to the Coca Cola museum wear Pepsi shirts. But then again it was not their organization which lost the $10k.

If I had been asked to do this I would have had my mom call me in sick. I don't wear flags, logos on clothing, nor bumper stickers on my car. I am not someone who like to inflict my opinion on others. That is why you usually don't see me posting often.

BTW, I do not drink Pepsi or Coke. A heart condition has me cut off from anything with caffeine. Boy does that suck. I miss my morning coffee.

847 Flavia  Mon, May 10, 2010 12:13:24pm

re: #135 HoosierHoops

I'll bet a trillion dollars those same boys where wearing green on St. Patrick's Day...Anybody want to take that bet?

While I would bet you are right, I think the point is "Did they whine & scream about anyone wearing orange, or the Union Flag, on that day?"

That said, I am pretty certain these kids did this as a stunt, and that there were nationalistic & even racial undertones. But unless they implicitly said or did something, they should have been within their rights to wear the clothing.

I well understand the principal's reaction - school is not an entirely "free speech" zone, and with good reason - yes, a fight could have broken out. But I am also glad to hear that they backed down. I would be even more glad to hear that a school assembly had been called where all the behavior that went on was addressed: the belligerent patriotism and the whiny victimhood claims.

848 Graybeard  Mon, May 10, 2010 3:38:09pm

re: #844 jamesfirecat

I fail to see how a principle with common sense could weigh "someone student getting hurt" against "starting political controversy" and decide it was better to allow one of his charges to be harmed on school grounds than to rock the boat.

Have you not read any of the articles describing the tension at the high school in the days following the incident? Police were sent to the school, and some students stayed home in fear of violence. Also, the Hispanic walkout 'disrupted traffic'. There was a potential for injury there too.

849 jamesfirecat  Mon, May 10, 2010 5:41:13pm

re: #848 Graybeard

Have you not read any of the articles describing the tension at the high school in the days following the incident? Police were sent to the school, and some students stayed home in fear of violence. Also, the Hispanic walkout 'disrupted traffic'. There was a potential for injury there too.

Like I said before, what do you imagine would have happened if a fight had started? Would the media's and surrounding areas reaction be less explosive than this? If so, why?

At the moment everyone is making a big to do over something that has no ramafacations over that one singled day, if punches had started getting thrown around.... I feel 95% certain it would be worse do you think people would have reacted better to the news that children were assulted for wearing the American Flag than they currently are?

850 BrainFromArous  Tue, May 11, 2010 12:20:45pm

re: #821 Charles


And now, we can't possibly suspect these kids of behaving provocatively toward Mexicans, because they had Mexican heritage.
...
And Mexican heritage is not an automatic excuse card for behaving badly toward Mexican students. People are more complicated than that.

So Mexican-American students are now simply "Mexicans?"

"Mexican" is a national identity and citizen status, not a single culture or ethnicity. These kids are "Mexican" in the same way Barack Obama is Kenyan and I am Polish.


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