Former Colin Powell Aide: Dick Cheney ‘Fears Being Tried As a War Criminal’

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Colin Powell’s former chief of staff Col. Lawrence Wilkerson said over the weekend that former Vice President Dick Cheney fears being tried as a war criminal.

Before serving as Powell’s chief of staff while Powell was Secretary of State, [Col. Lawrence] Wilkerson worked in the first Bush administration as a special assistant to Powell, who was then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Cheney was serving as Secretary of Defense. He’s known Cheney for decades, but says now, “I simply don’t recognize Mr. Cheney anymore” and calling him a “very vindictive person.”

“I think he’s just trying to, one, assert himself so he’s not in some subsequent time period tried for war crimes and, second, so that he somehow vindicates himself because he feels like he needs vindication. That in itself tells you something about him,” Wilkerson told ABC News, explaining that Cheney may have “angst” because of receiving deferments instead of serving in the Vietnam War like Wilkerson and others in the administration.

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509 comments
1 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 2:51:18pm

Tried for War Crimes by whom?

2 makeitstop  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 2:51:33pm

Now that's a subject I never thought I'd see brought up by any member of the Bush administration.

But seeing as how Wilkerson worked for Powell (and Cheney attempted to throw Powell under the bus) it's somewhat more understandable.

Still. Wow.

3 elisabeth  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 2:55:17pm

Wilkerson has been speaking out against Bush/Cheney for a couple of years at least. He's also said that he's willing to take his punishment for being part of the group that sold the Iraq War. Nice to know someone in the Bush Administration has the moral courage to admit their mistakes.

4 Amory Blaine  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 2:56:34pm

Cheney has no regrets about torture either. Good example to set for Iraqs government.

5 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 2:56:58pm

re: #1 ggt

Tried for War Crimes by whom?

ICC, I'd presume.

6 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 2:57:22pm

This is going to get ugly.. Both sides have fired shots at each other in the press...
Next week...Make sure you have popcorn on-hand...This could have an internal effect on the GOP...Like I said..It is going to get ugly...

7 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 2:57:54pm

re: #5 Varek Raith

ICC, I'd presume.

I thought the US did not subscribe to the ICC.

8 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 2:59:32pm

re: #7 ggt

I thought the US did not subscribe to the ICC.

Beats me.
I mean, in that case, we can violate the Geneva Conventions without repercussions.

9 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:00:08pm

His claim seems a bit over the top. Possible but a bit of a stretch. I checked his Wiki page: Lawrence Wilkerson

Wilkerson claimed in an interview on BBC Newsnight, January 17, 2007, that an Iranian offer to help stabilise Iraq after the American invasion, was positively received at the State Department, yet turned down by Dick Cheney.[7] [8] The offer supposedly consisted of help in stabilizing Iraq, cutting ties with Hezbollah and greater transparency in its nuclear program in return for lifting sanctions and dismantling the Mujahedeen-e Khalq, an organisation working to overthrow the Iranian government. When this supposed offer was made, numerous middle-east experts were warning of the coming shift in power in Iran toward the right-wing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who would assume power shortly thereafter.

“ We thought it was a very propitious moment... But as soon as it got to the White House, and as soon as it got to the vice president's office, the old mantra of 'We don't talk to evil' ... reasserted itself.

He wanted to lift sanctions on Iran with the delusion that they'd help ease the occupation of Iraq. Sounds pretty nutty.

Also he believes the Jews have too much power in American foreign policy....
Wilkerson was featured in VPRO's Tegenlicht Dutch documentary The Israel Lobby. He said that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) was highly influential in the Bush Administration's decision to go to war in Iraq. He also cited, as to the extent of their influence, an occasion in which he was threatened with censure[citation needed] when he criticized Israel in a lecture he was giving.

He has also been calling for war crimes trials of Bush officials for quite some time so I think his claims about Cheney's fears are based more on his own fantasies.

10 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:00:56pm

Vietnam again.

It hangs like a dark cloud over that generation.

My uncle served, and still shows the effects.

My father tried to enlist and was declared 1-Y. (Actually, first they declared him dead, then they declared him 1-Y. They were right, though. He's legally disabled now.)

11 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:01:38pm

re: #1 ggt

Tried for War Crimes by whom?

I think the guy is a bit of a loon. There's very little chance of war crimes trials for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove etc and I don;t think any of them actually fear it.

12 Amory Blaine  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:03:06pm

re: #10 EmmmieG

Vietnam again.

It hangs like a dark cloud over that generation.

My uncle served, and still shows the effects.

My father tried to enlist and was declared 1-Y. (Actually, first they declared him dead, then they declared him 1-Y. They were right, though. He's legally disabled now.)

My dad served in Vietnam and the war destroyed our family.

13 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:03:14pm

re: #4 Amory Blaine

Cheney has no regrets about torture either. Good example to set for Iraqs government.

Maliki is already siding with Assad/Syria. Here's some additional verbiage from our "ally":

“There is no doubt that there is a country that is waiting for the Arab countries to be ripped and is waiting for internal corrosion,” he said in Baghdad. “Zionists and Israel are the first and biggest beneficiaries of this whole process.”

Mr. Maliki, the leader of Iraq’s Shiite government, rarely mentions Israel in speeches. But he warned that those Arab countries experiencing democratic revolutions should be wary of Israel’s taking advantage of the turmoil.

“We must take notice and be careful not to be the prey of the ambitions of this usurping country,” he said.

14 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:03:45pm

Funny, we charged Japanese soldiers for war crimes when they waterboarded our guys during WWII.

15 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:04:24pm
In September 2006 in a conference call Wilkerson expressed support for Wesley Clark

Yeah, that sounds about right.

16 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:04:45pm

re: #10 EmmmieG

Vietnam again.

It hangs like a dark cloud over that generation.

My uncle served, and still shows the effects.

My father tried to enlist and was declared 1-Y. (Actually, first they declared him dead, then they declared him 1-Y. They were right, though. He's legally disabled now.)

Well you know it's bad when you go to the draft board and they declare you legally dead...
We are in Alice's Restaurant territory now :)

17 elisabeth  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:04:55pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

While I certainly don't think Wilkerson is any bit of a loon I do agree that there will certainly not be any war crimes trials or that Bush et al fear them. That is a shame.

18 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:05:00pm

re: #7 ggt

I thought the US did not subscribe to the ICC.

We aren't a member. Clinton signed the Rome treaty but did not submit for ratification. Bush then unsigned and refused to cooperate. Obama has pledged to cooperate with the court but hasn't submitted to the Senate for ratification. It's complicated.

19 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:05:21pm

re: #16 HoosierHoops

Well you know it's bad when you go to the draft board and they declare you legally dead...
We are in Alice's Restaurant territory now :)

Step Right Up, it's around the back, just a half a mile from the railroad tracks.

20 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:06:32pm

re: #18 goddamnedfrank

We aren't a member. Clinton signed the Rome treaty but did not submit for ratification. Bush then unsigned and refused to cooperate. Obama has pledged to cooperate with the court but hasn't submitted to the Senate for ratification. It's complicated.

So, who does Cheney think is going to try him.

Does he think some Mossad agents are going to kidnap him and sell him to Uganda or something?

21 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:07:03pm

re: #13 Gus 802

Maliki is already siding with Assad/Syria. Here's some additional verbiage from our "ally":

Classic. Our puppet in Iraq is just like the rest of them. Mission accomplished. When will we ever learn.

22 albusteve  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:07:04pm

more gossip...ho hum

23 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:08:33pm

re: #19 ggt

Step Right Up, it's around the back, just a half a mile from the railroad tracks.

I like the pickle song too!

24 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:09:27pm

re: #20 ggt

So, who does Cheney think is going to try him.

Does he think some Mossad agents are going to kidnap him and sell him to Uganda or something?

Well, the CIA is still pretty pissed off over the outing of Valerie Plame. I don't think anybody's going to try him but the fact is that Cheney has made quite a few enemies. A certain level of paranoia is probably appropriate.

25 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:09:45pm

re: #22 albusteve

more gossip...ho hum

It's Washington DC..They live on Gossip and Power..Oh..And money..
Hi Steve.. Ya doing ok?

26 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:10:09pm

re: #24 goddamnedfrank

Well, the CIA is still pretty pissed off over the outing of Valerie Plame. I don't think anybody's going to try him but the fact is that Cheney has made quite a few enemies. A certain level of paranoia is probably appropriate.

It's a game I'll never be good at. Probably appropriate I didn't choose government as a career.

27 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:10:24pm

re: #25 HoosierHoops

It's Washington DC..They live on Gossip and Power..Oh..And money..
Hi Steve.. Ya doing ok?

VOTES, it's all about votes in D.C.

28 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:11:43pm

re: #27 ggt

VOTES, it's all about votes in D.C.

And perfect hair..And a nice tie

29 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:12:18pm

Hey, Dick? That's a guilty conscience you're feeling.

30 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:12:36pm

Pickle Song.

not OT since it makes about as much sense as Cheney.

31 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:13:17pm

Maliki and Cheney from "It's Good To Be Back In Iraq". 2008

“There is no doubt that there is a country that is waiting for the Arab countries to be ripped and is waiting for internal corrosion...Zionists and Israel are the first and biggest beneficiaries of this whole process...we must take notice and be careful not to be the prey of the ambitions of this usurping country..." Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, 2011

32 Atlas Fails  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:13:27pm

re: #14 Varek Raith

Funny, we charged Japanese soldiers for war crimes when they waterboarded our guys during WWII.

But this is different because...

[dramatic pause]

THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS!!11!!11one

33 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:13:53pm

re: #14 Varek Raith

Funny, we charged Japanese soldiers for war crimes when they waterboarded our guys during WWII.

Executed them for it, too.

34 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:14:10pm

Image: Nouri-al-Maliki-and-Mahmo-006.jpg

35 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:16:23pm

re: #29 wlewisiii

Hey, Dick? That's a guilty conscience you're feeling.

Pfft, Cheney has no conscience, he traded it in for an artificial heart powered by broken dreams.

36 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:16:31pm

re: #30 ggt

Pickle Song.

not OT since it makes about as much sense as Cheney.

It's a catchy tune.. But i thought it was perhaps the dumbest song of all time.. That song should have never been released..
I mean it's right up there with..Don't Worry..Be Happy...
or you put the lime in the Coconut.. Or Feelings..:)

37 Schadenfreude 'r' Us  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:16:36pm

re: #24 goddamnedfrank

Well, the CIA is still pretty pissed off over the outing of Valerie Plame. I don't think anybody's going to try him but the fact is that Cheney has made quite a few enemies. A certain level of paranoia is probably appropriate.

If he spends the rest of his life looking over his shoulder ... it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

38 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:16:45pm

SNAFU

39 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:17:06pm

I doubt Cheney has one iota of "angst" in his entire being.

40 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:17:30pm

re: #35 goddamnedfrank

Pfft, Cheney has no conscience, he traded it in for an artificial heart powered by broken dreams.

Must be Jimminy Cricket then... ;)

41 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:17:51pm

re: #34 Gus 802

Image: Nouri-al-Maliki-and-Mahmo-006.jpg

#Winning!

42 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:18:18pm

re: #36 HoosierHoops

It's a catchy tune.. But i thought it was perhaps the dumbest song of all time.. That song should have never been released..
I mean it's right up there with..Don't Worry..Be Happy...
or you put the lime in the Coconut.. Or Feelings..:)

It still makes me laugh.

I think it's Arlo Guthrie's storytelling style I like. He could probably tell any story with his guitar pickin' in the background and I'd enjoy it

43 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:22:42pm

re: #39 prairiefire

I doubt Cheney has one iota of "angst" in his entire being.

Heh, that's the other thing that makes this story unlikely. Cheney sleeps just fine at night on top of a giant pile of money in a big house. He's just fine.

44 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:23:35pm

re: #33 wlewisiii

Executed them for it, too.

Well, at least they weren't waterboarded.

45 Atlas Fails  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:24:04pm

Cheney always struck me as someone out to prove what a tough guy he was. I never really made the connection between that and his draft deferments, but it makes sense. Sort of the like the self-loathing, closeted gay who speaks out against homosexuality.

46 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:24:19pm

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Well, at least they weren't waterboarded.

Because if they were, the waterboarders would have been charged with a war crime.

47 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:25:36pm

Hoosier, it's your fault.

Tonite is going to be an American Folk Music night.

OT or not, I don't care.

I need it

48 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:26:52pm

re: #46 Varek Raith

Because if they were, the waterboarders would have been charged with a war crime.

Prisoners of war from China, the United States, Australia, Britain, Canada, India, the Netherlands, New Zealand and the Philippines held by the Japanese armed forces were subject to murder, beatings, summary punishment, brutal treatment, forced labour, medical experimentation, starvation rations and poor medical treatment. The most notorious use of forced labour was in the construction of the Burma–Thailand Death Railway.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

With all that, who needs waterboarding?

49 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:29:21pm

Wilkerson on 9/11

Youtube Video

Like the Kennedy assassination the investigation was a whitewash to cover up the truth.

50 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:30:34pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Wilkerson on 9/11

[Video]Like the Kennedy assassination the investigation was a whitewash to cover up the truth.

He also think FDR was responsible for the attack on Pearl Harbor. C'mon, this guy is a nutcase.

51 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:31:40pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

He also think FDR was responsible for the attack on Pearl Harbor. C'mon, this guy is a nutcase.

Sure is.

52 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:31:46pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

He also think FDR was responsible for the attack on Pearl Harbor. C'mon, this guy is a nutcase.

It's all OUR fault. Just plead guilty and forego the trial. Pay everybody to leave us alone.

53 SpaceJesus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:32:13pm

As he should be.

54 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:32:44pm

re: #41 Varek Raith

#Winning!

Yeah. Like our allies Pakistan. I tell ya'. We never learn.

Still repeating the same mistakes from yesteryear. It wouldn't surprise me that in the coming years Iraq will finally end up with WMDs with the help of their new friends Iran. Adding to the fluidity of the irony we're seeing take place in Iraq and given our long track record of foreign policy failures. Of course. Some of this isn't new given our alleged friendship with Saudi Arabia.

55 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:32:47pm

re: #48 Cannadian Club Akbar

My point was simple.
During WWII we treated waterboarding as flat out torture.

56 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:33:28pm

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Wilkerson on 9/11

[Video]Like the Kennedy assassination the investigation was a whitewash to cover up the truth.

He thinks 9-11 was the neo-con Pearl Harbor as an excuse to serve Israel.

57 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:33:58pm

re: #56 Killgore Trout

He thinks 9-11 was the neo-con Pearl Harbor as an excuse to serve Israel.

Lol.
Bonkers would be an understatement.

58 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:34:38pm

re: #54 Gus 802

Yeah. Like our allies Pakistan. I tell ya'. We never learn.

Still repeating the same mistakes from yesteryear. It wouldn't surprise me that in the coming years Iraq will finally end up with WMDs with the help of their new friends Iran. Adding to the fluidity of the irony we're seeing take place in Iraq and given our long track record of foreign policy failures. Of course. Some of this isn't new given our alleged friendship with Saudi Arabia.

Gus, we're dealing with humans, not Lizards.

They always repeat their mistakes.

59 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:34:57pm

This ravioli has tomatoes and red peppers in it.
It's awesome.

60 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:37:03pm

re: #59 Varek Raith

This ravioli has tomatoes and red peppers in it.
It's awesome.

ummmmmm

61 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:37:25pm

re: #54 Gus 802

Yeah. Like our allies Pakistan. I tell ya'. We never learn.

Still repeating the same mistakes from yesteryear. It wouldn't surprise me that in the coming years Iraq will finally end up with WMDs with the help of their new friends Iran. Adding to the fluidity of the irony we're seeing take place in Iraq and given our long track record of foreign policy failures. Of course. Some of this isn't new given our alleged friendship with Saudi Arabia.

Screw it.
Let's just give everyone nuclear weapons.
/

62 theheat  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:37:52pm

If Cheney drove a truckload of TNT through a daycare, not a damned thing would ever happen to him. It's not in the cards. It never was in the cards. He has a better chance of being hit by a falling meteor.

Besides, with an election coming up, it'd just give the GOPs reason to play Victimized Patriots (as opposed to vanilla variety True Patriots). Sure, they'd love the hell out of that, but it serves no purpose.

I'd rather see Cheney become incontinent. That, and maybe find out his wife was banging the gardener.

63 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:37:53pm

re: #60 ggt

ummm

I'm new to this 'cooking' thing.
;)

65 SpaceJesus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:39:32pm

just need to trick cheney and bush into visiting spain sometime

66 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:39:57pm

If you don't want to be treated like a war criminal then don't act like one.

67 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:40:08pm

Keith O & Larry Wilkerson - Israel, Bush & The Roadmap - Bush Sabotaged Peace Plan -

Youtube Video
68 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:41:03pm

Endgame 3: Wilkerson on Israel and US military strategy

Youtube Video

"Israel is a burden for the Untied States"
69 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:41:34pm

re: #62 theheat

I'd rather see Cheney become incontinent. That, and maybe find out his wife was banging the gardener.

He already is, and that's been true for years.

70 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:42:59pm

CP is prolly the one afraid of war crime trials himself, since he's the one who went and argued for the shyt.

It never pays to be a watercarrier for cons. Never.

71 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:43:24pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

Endgame 3: Wilkerson on Israel and US military strategy

[Video]
"Israel is a burden for the Untied States"

Lol, He think the Jews are going to use a first strike to start a nuclear war in the middle east. Ok, This guy is a massive dick, I'll drop it now.

72 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:44:38pm

"I made some friends I didn't expect to make"

73 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:44:44pm

Lawrence Wilkerson conveys Iraq war for oil when he knows it was for Israel!
Ok, really, I'm done now

74 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:45:26pm

re: #14 Varek Raith

Funny, we charged Japanese soldiers for war crimes when they waterboarded our guys during WWII.

That wasn't the big ticket item in the charges.

Bayoneting them when they couldn't march fast enough after surrendering at Bataan was a bigger issue.

Starving them to death in the POW camps was a bigger issue.

Beating them to death for trivial infractions of camp rules, or just for kicks, was a bigger issue.

There wasn't any need to bring up treatments that didn't lead to death or permanent disability. By the time we got done talking about the beatings, the floggings, the starvation, and the really gory stuff, we could rest our case.

I don't like false equations. Both things are in the same category, but as to degree, there's a big difference.

75 SpaceJesus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:45:26pm

i dont think kilgore likes this wilkerson fellow

76 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:45:57pm

re: #75 SpaceJesus

i dont think kilgore likes this wilkerson fellow

Mongo no like Wilkerson either!
:)

77 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:46:59pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

He also think FDR was responsible for the attack on Pearl Harbor. C'mon, this guy is a nutcase.

Actually he said he didn't think anyone could pinpoint exactly when Pearl Harbor or 9/11 might have been attacked. Yeah, he's pretty left-wing, but I didn't see him promoting conspiracy theories in that video...

78 SpaceJesus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:47:23pm

re: #62 theheat


if he were to set foot in a country with long arm statutes for war criminals, he could be prosecuted and spend the rest of his life in foreign prison. he probably isn't that stupid tho, but we can dream can't we?

79 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:48:34pm

re: #77 Charles

Actually he said he didn't think anyone could pinpoint exactly when Pearl Harbor or 9/11 might have been attacked. Yeah, he's pretty left-wing, but I didn't see him promoting conspiracy theories in that video...

Keep watching. His claim is that Bush shut down investigations to allow 9-11 to happen so we could fight wars on behalf of Israel.

80 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:49:14pm

re: #66 darthstar

Code Pink has Obama down for war crimes too. Of course they do have mikiesmoky2 in agreement, so it must be true.
///

81 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:54:30pm

re: #80 Rightwingconspirator

Code Pink has Obama down for war crimes too. Of course they do have mikiesmoky2 in agreement, so it must be true.
///

Code Pink, while I agree with their anti-war position, is about as relevant as a room full of teabaggers on scooters with dead batteries.

82 jamesfirecat  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:54:57pm

re: #74 lostlakehiker

That wasn't the big ticket item in the charges.

Bayoneting them when they couldn't march fast enough after surrendering at Bataan was a bigger issue.

Starving them to death in the POW camps was a bigger issue.

Beating them to death for trivial infractions of camp rules, or just for kicks, was a bigger issue.

There wasn't any need to bring up treatments that didn't lead to death or permanent disability. By the time we got done talking about the beatings, the floggings, the starvation, and the really gory stuff, we could rest our case.

I don't like false equations. Both things are in the same category, but as to degree, there's a big difference.

We still none the less hagned people for waterboarding.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]


[Link: crooksandliars.com...]

It may not have been the worst thing they did, but it was still a war crime worthy of some people getting hanged over, and don't forget it!

83 Petroshka  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 3:57:29pm

Template for making money:

Former _______ of _________ said __________ which is a controversial claim against his former employer. He also announced that [ a book is about to be released [ ] he is going on the public speaking circuit.

I'm just a cynic I guess.

84 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:00:35pm

It seems the fantasies of war crimes trials for the Bush regime is popular but be careful what you wish for. Do you really want to set the precedent of trials and executions of previous administration? I'm sure the wingnuts would love to lynch Obama for excessive uppitiness and violating the Konstitution.
Let's leave this shit to 3rd world shitholes with corrupt and unstable societies. No need to import the practice here.

85 Charleston Chew  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:03:25pm

re: #62 theheat

If Cheney drove a truckload of TNT through a daycare, not a damned thing would ever happen to him.

That's ridiculous. He'd never do something so awful. He'd get someone that can't be connected back to him to do it.

86 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:03:44pm

re: #81 darthstar

Code Pink is no more or less nutty than Wilkerson.

87 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:05:58pm

re: #85 Charleston Chew

That's ridiculous. He'd never do something so awful. He'd get someone that can't be connected back to him to do it.

That's what I thought too.. Till he invited me to go on a hunting trip
/

88 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:08:45pm

re: #81 darthstar

It's amazing to me Code Pink kept their position after having it challenged by Afghan women. Talk about politics ahead of human rights reality! Wow.

89 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:10:35pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

Lawrence Wilkerson - National Committee to Free the Cuban Five

Are you pointing this out to defend Cheney? Nobody gives a shit about this Wilkerson guy.

90 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:11:47pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

It seems the fantasies of war crimes trials for the Bush regime is popular but be careful what you wish for. Do you really want to set the precedent of trials and executions of previous administration? I'm sure the wingnuts would love to lynch Obama for excessive uppitiness and violating the Konstitution.
Let's leave this shit to 3rd world shitholes with corrupt and unstable societies. No need to import the practice here.

Let's leave torture to third world shitholes too. Oops.

91 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:11:59pm

Well, just to be clear about one thing, I'm not in favor of war crimes prosecutions for former top officials. I think that's a very dangerous precedent to set, and the case would have to be VERY compelling to get me to support it.

92 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:13:25pm

re: #91 Charles

Well, just to be clear about one thing, I'm not in favor of war crimes prosecutions for former top officials. I think that's a very dangerous precedent to set, and the case would have to be VERY compelling to get me to support it.

If it were clear they were acting in their own interests and not in the interests of the the US, therefore violating the trust of the office they held . . . .

That might even be treason.

93 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:14:51pm

re: #89 recusancy

Are you pointing this out to defend Cheney? Nobody gives a shit about this Wilkerson guy.

I think he's done a decent enough job of pointing out the man is a bit of a loon and there is zero chance Cheney is concerned about a war crimes trial. There isn't any need to defend Cheney.

94 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:15:58pm

It would seem odd to go after Cheney or Bush after not going after these soldiers, their commanders or President Johnson.

95 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:16:59pm

re: #82 jamesfirecat

We still none the less hagned people for waterboarding.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

[Link: crooksandliars.com...]

It may not have been the worst thing they did, but it was still a war crime worthy of some people getting hanged over, and don't forget it!

You should probably keep in mind that the japanese water torture frequently ended with someone dead. Plus, can you provide the name of anyone who was tried strictly for the crime of Waterboarding during WW2?

96 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:17:14pm

re: #56 Killgore Trout

He thinks 9-11 was the neo-con Pearl Harbor as an excuse to serve Israel.

Then he should be ignored.

Back for a bit, trying to keep my composure.

97 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:17:21pm

re: #94 Rightwingconspirator

It would seem odd to go after Cheney or Bush after not going after these soldiers, their commanders or President Johnson.

It's A-OK if Americans do it, but bad if any we fight against do it.

98 Charleston Chew  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:17:29pm

re: #92 ggt

If it were clear they were acting in their own interests and not in the interests of the the US, therefore violating the trust of the office they held . . .

That might even be treason.

Too many people in government fit that description, so they'll never hold anyone else to that standard.

It's the Golden Rule's evil twin.

99 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:19:02pm

re: #89 recusancy

Are you pointing this out to defend Cheney? Nobody gives a shit about this Wilkerson guy.

I'm pointing this out because Wilkerson is a rabid loon, conspiracy nut and an antisemite. His claims that Cheney fears a war crimes trial are based on nothing but his own fantasies and should not be taken seriously.

100 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:19:03pm

re: #95 RogueOne

You should probably keep in mind that the japanese water torture frequently ended with someone dead. Plus, can you provide the name of anyone who was tried strictly for the crime of Waterboarding during WW2?

It's not necessary to find someone who was tried strictly for waterboarding, only that waterboarding was among the things that we considered torture.

It was. It is. It's torture.

It's a torture that little freak Pol Pot was very fond of, too.

Image: khmer-rouge-waterboarding.jpg

101 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:20:17pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

I think if Cheney went to Belgium he might get arrested. Here in the US? Not a chance.

102 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:20:18pm

re: #91 Charles

Well, just to be clear about one thing, I'm not in favor of war crimes prosecutions for former top officials. I think that's a very dangerous precedent to set, and the case would have to be VERY compelling to get me to support it.

Agreed. It would basically handcuff our ability to actually fight a war, even clearly justified defensive ones, given the sheer level of "filth of war" that always occurs.

103 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:20:34pm

re: #95 RogueOne

You should probably keep in mind that the japanese water torture frequently ended with someone dead. Plus, can you provide the name of anyone who was tried strictly for the crime of Waterboarding during WW2?

We tried people who "safely" waterboarded people as well.

104 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:21:43pm

re: #100 Obdicut

It's not necessary to find someone who was tried strictly for waterboarding, only that waterboarding was among the things that we considered torture.

It was. It is. It's torture.

It's a torture that little freak Pol Pot was very fond of, too.

Image: khmer-rouge-waterboarding.jpg

We could argue back and forth for years (and we have) whether waterboarding is torture or not but that isn't my argument. My argument is that the claim that we executed people for waterboarding is an exaggeration. If it isn't then can you provide me with name of the person executed?

105 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:22:54pm

re: #104 RogueOne

We could argue back and forth for years (and we have) whether waterboarding is torture or not but that isn't my argument. My argument is that the claim that we executed people for waterboarding is an exaggeration. If it isn't then can you provide me with name of the person executed?

And my, and Obdicut's I think, point is that during WW2, water boarding was considered by the Unites States to be torture.

106 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:23:00pm

re: #103 recusancy

We tried people who "safely" waterboarded people as well.

We tossed in any and every charge we could think of during those trials, it's the same thing prosecutors do today. No one was tried strictly for waterboarding and certainly no one was executed for it.

107 Alexzander  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:23:07pm

re: #91 Charles

Well, just to be clear about one thing, I'm not in favor of war crimes prosecutions for former top officials. I think that's a very dangerous precedent to set, and the case would have to be VERY compelling to get me to support it.

While I respect your opinion, I disagree entirely.

I think the president could only be beneficial in the long run.

108 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:23:13pm

re: #104 RogueOne

We could argue back and forth for years (and we have) whether waterboarding is torture or not but that isn't my argument. My argument is that the claim that we executed people for waterboarding is an exaggeration. If it isn't then can you provide me with name of the person executed?

so true, and no matter how much we argue, someone, somehwhere is going to use it as a means of extracting information, punishment or for their own gratification.

It's not going away.

109 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:23:35pm

re: #91 Charles

Well, just to be clear about one thing, I'm not in favor of war crimes prosecutions for former top officials. I think that's a very dangerous precedent to set, and the case would have to be VERY compelling to get me to support it.

These people specialize in plausible deniability. President Obama understands this and has gone so far as to say he prefers to "look forward" rather than pursue the previous administration's key players for whatever they did. They're lucky the party labels aren't reversed, because you can bet that people like Peter King (bigot extraordinaire and anti-Muslim crusader) would stop at nothing to hold very public trials if they thought it would serve them politically.

110 Kewalo  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:24:36pm

re: #30 ggt

Thanks so much GGT...I love silly and miss that there isn't more of it around today.

111 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:24:46pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

And my, and Obdicut's I think, point is that during WW2, water boarding was considered by the Unites States to be torture.

When they did it. You were right earlier, it's all in the who did it. The winners make the rules, it's a fact of life. Either way, there is zero chance any US president/vp is ever going to face charges at the ICC. Cheney could have done the waterboarding himself and not have to be worried about it.

112 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:25:57pm

re: #110 Kewalo

Thanks so much GGT...I love silly and miss that there isn't more of it around today.

You are so welcome!

I do silly well.

And, there is always more--foot prints and dog prints.

113 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:26:11pm

Aren't people who shoot other people with a shotgun, unless under immediate threat, prosecuted?

Isn't there a law against being a heartless bastard?

114 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:26:19pm

re: #104 RogueOne

We could argue back and forth for years (and we have) whether waterboarding is torture or not but that isn't my argument.

Not really, no. It's agreed upon to be torture. You can decide it's not, but then you're in a very small minority-- assuming you know what it actually is. If you don't think that repeatedly making someone experience the fear, panic, and pain of drowning is torture, then you're using an amazingly narrow definition.

My argument is that the claim that we executed people for waterboarding is an exaggeration.

We tried people for torture, in which we included waterboarding. We executed people for having conducted torture. Your bizarre line of logic could be used to say that any individual form of torture done by someone who also tortured in other ways doesn't rise to the bar. It's a deeply odd argument.

During WWII, and since then, we have considered waterboarding torture. That didn't actually change. We just decided it was okay torture.

The depressing part is the attempts to minimize it afterwards, to pretend there's some good, civilized way to torture where you still get to wear the white hat while you do it.

115 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:26:22pm

re: #108 ggt

so true, and no matter how much we argue, someone, somehwhere is going to use it as a means of extracting information, punishment or for their own gratification.

It's not going away.

Absolutely true. Consider the fact that the US congress has never officially outlawed it. It was set aside by the president in an executive order which can be rescinded as soon as they feel necessary. "we'll never ever do it again...unless we reallly have to"

116 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:26:46pm

re: #106 RogueOne

We tossed in any and every charge we could think of during those trials, it's the same thing prosecutors do today. No one was tried strictly for waterboarding and certainly no one was executed for it.

America fuck yea!

117 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:27:07pm

re: #107 Alexzander

While I respect your opinion, I disagree entirely.

I think the president could only be beneficial in the long run.

No, it wouldn't. It would mean that a President who is forced to fight a war would be reluctant to leave office, for fear of war crimes charges. No former president could travel to Europe, since there will always be someone there who files charges.

No matter how cleanly we fight, a nation fighting a war will always end up killing innocents and doing some ugly things. War crimes trials would ensure we could never fight again without very ugly recriminations.

118 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:27:18pm

re: #113 b_sharp

Aren't people who shoot other people with a shotgun, unless under immediate threat, prosecuted?

Isn't there a law against being a heartless bastard?

There is no law against bad taste or being a heartless bastard. One must act on those things with criminal intent to violate the law.

119 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:27:39pm

re: #115 RogueOne

It is, and always has been, illegal to torture.

120 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:27:56pm

BBIAB

121 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:28:11pm

re: #101 Obdicut

There is an arrest warrant for war crimes with Cheneys name on it? Or Bush?

122 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:28:50pm

re: #121 Rightwingconspirator

There is an arrest warrant for war crimes with Cheneys name on it? Or Bush?

Nope. Doesn't change the fact that it's illegal to torture. Which it definitely should be.

123 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:29:55pm

And I'll say this for Cheney; I really think that he felt every action he took was for the benefit of the US. I think he's a patriot. I think he's very mistaken about a wide range of things, from the appropriateness of torture to whether or not invading Iraq was a good idea, but I think that he had the best interests of the American people at heart.

124 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:30:33pm

re: #123 Obdicut

And I'll say this for Cheney; I really think that he felt every action he took was for the benefit of the US. I think he's a patriot. I think he's very mistaken about a wide range of things, from the appropriateness of torture to whether or not invading Iraq was a good idea, but I think that he had the best interests of the American people at heart.

I agree.

He's just about 40 years out of sync.

He and Nixon would have gotten along.

125 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:30:38pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

No, it wouldn't. It would mean that a President who is forced to fight a war would be reluctant to leave office, for fear of war crimes charges. No former president could travel to Europe, since there will always be someone there who files charges.

No matter how cleanly we fight, a nation fighting a war will always end up killing innocents and doing some ugly things. War crimes trials would ensure we could never fight again without very ugly recriminations.

Bush already can't go to Europe. And I don't feel sorry for him.

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:31:29pm

re: #20 ggt

So, who does Cheney think is going to try him.

Does he think some Mossad agents are going to kidnap him and sell him to Uganda or something?

That seems like a somewhat unlikely thing for Mossad to do, but hey, Mossad agents get bored on the weekend also...

127 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:31:48pm

re: #125 recusancy

Bush already can't go to Europe. And I don't feel sorry for him.

I don't think he wants to go to Europe. I'm not sure he wants to leave his ranch in Texas.

He seems to like it there.

After 8 years as POTUS, I think I'd want to sit in a recliner for a very long time.

128 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:32:17pm

re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist

That seems like a somewhat unlikely thing for Mossad to do, but hey, Mossad agents get bored on the weekend also...

the fantasies of the paranoid have no boundries.

:)

129 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:32:29pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

No, it wouldn't. It would mean that a President who is forced to fight a war would be reluctant to leave office, for fear of war crimes charges. No former president could travel to Europe, since there will always be someone there who files charges.

No matter how cleanly we fight, a nation fighting a war will always end up killing innocents and doing some ugly things. War crimes trials would ensure we could never fight again without very ugly recriminations.

I'm sorry, but that's utter bullshit. Nobody would consider charging the Bush administration with war crimes for the Afghan invasion. That was an internationally recognized retaliation after an attack on our soil, and had the blessing of most of the UN (if not all of it). It was the right response at the right time.

The Iraq invasion, however, is shakier ground...sure, we had Poland on our side, and Palau...but we went in under false pretenses (WMDs, imminent threat) which we knew were lies when we told them to the UN. That was payback for Bush 41's grudge with Saddam Hussein. One could argue about war crimes charges and profiteering by the Administration and its business allies until there was peace in Israel and never settle it.

And Iraq is still a problem for the Obama administration as Iraq is starting to bubble up into civil war again, and we're still stuck sitting in the middle of that country with our thumbs up our asses.

130 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:32:33pm

re: #122 Obdicut

Nope. Doesn't change the fact that it's illegal to torture. Which it definitely should be.

So according to your #101 Belgium perhaps would arrest Cheney without a warrant. Claiming "Universal Jurisdiction" perhaps? Which of course flies directly in the face of established state sovereignty.

I had though Belgium to be a more just nation than one that favors warrant less arrests.

131 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:32:50pm

re: #119 Obdicut

It is, and always has been, illegal to torture.

Well, sort of...kinda. There are ways around it. Obama is still running CIA blacksites and military prisons overseas. There are rules about what goes on there but I'm not sure what they are or how well they're supervised. I suspect the rules are pretty loose and elected officials would rather not really know anyways. We are also still using rendition to countries that do torture for us. Once again, I'm not sure exactly what the rules are but it probably just means that a US official conducts the interrogation by proxy and the techniques are probably a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.

132 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:33:07pm

re: #114 Obdicut

Not really, no. It's agreed upon to be torture. You can decide it's not, but then you're in a very small minority-- assuming you know what it actually is. If you don't think that repeatedly making someone experience the fear, panic, and pain of drowning is torture, then you're using an amazingly narrow definition.
...

Even if I disagree with the waterboarding=torture, I can live with being in the minority, the more important issue to me is that the voters were the ones who got to decide. The voters chose a president who promised to put a stop to it and that's the way it should be.

133 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:33:31pm

re: #127 ggt

He's in the suburbs now. Of Dallas. Which would be a heavy punishment, if it were me living there.

134 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:34:01pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

Well, sort of...kinda. There are ways around it. Obama is still running CIA blacksites and military prisons overseas. There are rules about what goes on there but I'm not sure what they are or how well they're supervised. I suspect the rules are pretty loose and elected officials would rather not really know anyways. We are also still using rendition to countries that do torture for us. Once again, I'm not sure exactly what the rules are but it probably just means that a US official conducts the interrogation by proxy and the techniques are probably a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.

I think the ins and out of international affairs is way above my paygrade.

I don't want to know what a POTUS learns upon taking office. I consider my vote a means of delegating such things.

135 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:34:47pm

re: #129 darthstar

The geneva conventions have loop holes big enough to drive a division of tanks through.

136 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:35:07pm

re: #130 Rightwingconspirator

So according to your #101 Belgium perhaps would arrest Cheney without a warrant.

Oh, does Belgium have a warrant? I don't know. I don't really track Belgium. But yes, they might try to arrest him for the Hague. They did pass a law about universal declaration. It's not my law, so take it up with them.

137 Alexzander  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:35:32pm

re: #129 darthstar

The regular people of Afghanistan had little or nothing to do with 911. It is barely even 'a nation state' by most standards. Read "The Places Inbetween."
If anything it should have been Saudi Arabia.
But of course, none of this reasoning has anything to do with how we reacted after 911.

138 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:36:44pm

re: #137 Alexzander

The regular people of Afghanistan had little or nothing to do with 911. It is barely even 'a nation state' by most standards. Read "The Places Inbetween."
If anything it should have been Saudi Arabia.
But of course, none of this reasoning has anything to do with how we reacted after 911.

I've learned after 45+ years, that things are not usually what they seem at face value.

139 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:36:46pm

re: #135 RogueOne

The geneva conventions have loop holes big enough to drive a division of tanks through.

Such as? (just kidding...I agree there are loop holes in the Geneva Convention--hell, we've got people running for president who think there's no separation of Church and State in the US Constitution...of course there are loop holes.)

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:36:57pm

re: #45 Atlas Fails

Cheney always struck me as someone out to prove what a tough guy he was. I never really made the connection between that and his draft deferments, but it makes sense. Sort of the like the self-loathing, closeted gay who speaks out against homosexuality.

That whole generation of politicians and pundits is heavily populated with men who didn't go to Vietnam because people of their class didn't have to, or because they managed individually to make use of various deferments and exemptions.

This did not stop many of them from thinking war was a fine and dandy thing to run, or approve of, if not to fight.

Clinton was given extensive crap for not going to Vietnam. John Kerry was given even more extensive crap by the same people FOR going to Vietnam.

Future generations will never be able to figure any of this out.

141 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:37:14pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

Well, sort of...kinda. There are ways around it. Obama is still running CIA blacksites and military prisons overseas. There are rules about what goes on there but I'm not sure what they are or how well they're supervised. I suspect the rules are pretty loose and elected officials would rather not really know anyways. We are also still using rendition to countries that do torture for us. Once again, I'm not sure exactly what the rules are but it probably just means that a US official conducts the interrogation by proxy and the techniques are probably a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.

Well, I hope not, since torture is a stupid way to go about interrogation. It is entirely possible, however, that we're still being stupid. I'd have hoped our intelligence services were getting their shit together.

But sure. It's illegal for cops to tune up suspects, and that still goes on all the time too. There's plenty of shit that's illegal, and yet happens because some people are just so damn convinced it's the only way. I am permanently suspicious of anyone who is rah-rah about torture.

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:37:20pm

re: #46 Varek Raith

Because if they were, the waterboarders would have been charged with a war crime.

And then we would have had to waterboard the waterboarders...and this could have gone on forever.

143 TedStriker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:37:43pm

re: #107 Alexzander

While I respect your opinion, I disagree entirely.

I think the president precedent could only be beneficial in the long run.

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

No, it wouldn't. It would mean that a President who is forced to fight a war would be reluctant to leave office, for fear of war crimes charges. No former president could travel to Europe, since there will always be someone there who files charges.

No matter how cleanly we fight, a nation fighting a war will always end up killing innocents and doing some ugly things. War crimes trials would ensure we could never fight again without very ugly recriminations.

There are good reasons for diplomatic immunity for heads of state, more than there are bad ones.

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:37:53pm

re: #48 Cannadian Club Akbar

Prisoners of war from China, the United States, Australia, Britain, Canada, India, the Netherlands, New Zealand and the Philippines held by the Japanese armed forces were subject to murder, beatings, summary punishment, brutal treatment, forced labour, medical experimentation, starvation rations and poor medical treatment. The most notorious use of forced labour was in the construction of the Burma–Thailand Death Railway.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

With all that, who needs waterboarding?

I don't know if anyone needs it, but the Japanese used it anyhow.

145 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:38:04pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

That whole generation of politicians and pundits is heavily populated with men who didn't go to Vietnam because people of their class didn't have to, or because they managed individually to make use of various deferments and exemptions.

This did not stop many of them from thinking war was a fine and dandy thing to run, or approve of, if not to fight.

Clinton was given extensive crap for not going to Vietnam. John Kerry was given even more extensive crap by the same people FOR going to Vietnam.

Future generations will never be able to figure any of this out.

Especially when they aren't taught or learn history . . .

146 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:38:10pm

re: #139 darthstar

Such as? (just kidding...I agree there are loop holes in the Geneva Convention--hell, we've got people running for president who think there's no separation of Church and State in the US Constitution...of course there are loop holes.)

If we felt threatened by Mexico we could invade tomorrow and there's nothing stopping us. The conventions are worthless when it comes to an actual conflict between 2 countries. They're only used anymore to beat up on nations we want to beat up on.

147 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:38:11pm

re: #137 Alexzander

The regular people of Afghanistan had little or nothing to do with 911. It is barely even 'a nation state' by most standards. Read "The Places Inbetween."
If anything it should have been Saudi Arabia.
But of course, none of this reasoning has anything to do with how we reacted after 911.

Saudi Arabia has oil...and we would have had all of OPEC down on our asses if we went after them. Iraq has oil too, but we knew they couldn't fight back (militarily, anyway), which is why we chose to invade them without planning ahead.

148 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:40:15pm

re: #146 RogueOne

What part of the Geneva convention would say it's not okay to invade Mexico? The Geneva convention is about the treatment of individuals during war.

149 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:40:25pm

re: #138 ggt

I've learned after 45+ years, that things are not usually what they seem at face value.

Don't worry--after 65 things start to resemble themselves again.

150 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:40:40pm

BTW, have I mentioned how much I like the edit button? I've used it at least a half dozen times already.

151 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:40:49pm

re: #148 Obdicut

What part of the Geneva convention would say it's not okay to invade Mexico? The Geneva convention is about the treatment of individuals during war.

Save me some salsa!

152 HappyWarrior  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:40:57pm

Where do we draw the line then though? Not arguing that I want Bush or any of his administration members tried or not but I wonder where the line is drawn. I actually had to proofread an article about torture during my internship earlier this summer and the reoccurring theme I observed was that the torturers almost always justified their torture by acting like the victims somehow deserved it or were beneath the rights of law. Just noticed the edit button, agree with Rogue, it's awesome.

153 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:41:48pm

re: #150 RogueOne

BTW, have I mentioned how much I like the edit button? I've used it at least a half dozen times already.

I used it earlier to fix a comma splice. Made it with about 10 seconds to go. That would have been embarrassing.

154 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:42:20pm

re: #143 talon_262

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

There are good reasons for diplomatic immunity for heads of state, more than there are bad ones.

Agreed.

155 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:43:00pm

re: #151 darthstar

Save me some salsa!

green salsa!

with Garlic.

156 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:43:27pm

Romney's a tea partier now.

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:44:04pm

re: #81 darthstar

Code Pink, while I agree with their anti-war position, is about as relevant as a room full of teabaggers on scooters with dead batteries.

The scooters will be pink and glittery, though.

Actually, Code Pink experimented with attending TPer events. The dress-up and anti-government angles appealed to Medea Benjamin.

158 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:44:31pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

And then we would have had to waterboard the waterboarders...and this could have gone on forever.

Time to chillax in a hot tub.

159 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:44:36pm

re: #156 recusancy

He has the moral fiber of wet cardboard.

160 HappyWarrior  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:44:52pm

re: #156 recusancy

Romney's a tea partier now.

He'd wear a skirt and wink if he thought it would get him votes.

161 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:44:59pm

Can we switch to Buddy Guy and John Mayer at Farm Aid?

Not quite American Folk Music, but certainly home-grown.

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:45:16pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

It seems the fantasies of war crimes trials for the Bush regime is popular but be careful what you wish for. Do you really want to set the precedent of trials and executions of previous administration? I'm sure the wingnuts would love to lynch Obama for excessive uppitiness and violating the Konstitution.
Let's leave this shit to 3rd world shitholes with corrupt and unstable societies. No need to import the practice here.

It's not going to happen, for many, many, many reasons.

Not worth spending time on.

163 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:45:58pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

The scooters will be pink and glittery, though.

Actually, Code Pink experimented with attending TPer events. The dress-up and anti-government angles appealed to Medea Benjamin.

Silly Hats seem to be a requirement. Along with self-made posters.

164 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:46:01pm

re: #159 Obdicut

He has the moral fiber of wet cardboard.

Glenn Beck Mitt Romney is a soulless panderer.

165 KenJen  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:46:27pm

Wilkerson is thinking he knows what Cheney is thinking. Im thinking that thinking equals hopeful thinking.

166 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:46:37pm

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not going to happen, for many, many, many reasons.

Not worth spending time on.

Very true. What shall we talk about, then?

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:46:52pm

re: #88 Rightwingconspirator

It's amazing to me Code Pink kept their position after having it challenged by Afghan women. Talk about politics ahead of human rights reality! Wow.

It's not amazing to me. I know the milieu they come from, and third-world people who don't agree with folks like this are always seen by them as propagandized or sellouts

168 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:47:00pm

re: #148 Obdicut

What part of the Geneva convention would say it's not okay to invade Mexico? The Geneva convention is about the treatment of individuals during war.

I think you might be right. I was confusing the Hague conventions with the 1st Geneva convention...I think.

169 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:47:27pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not amazing to me. I know the milieu they come from, and third-world people who don't agree with folks like this are always seen by them as propagandized or sellouts

Would that be an example of elitists arrogance?

170 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:47:42pm

re: #164 publicityStunted

Glenn Beck Mitt Romney is a soulless panderer.

I thought panderers were endangered because of the destruction of eucalyptus forests.

171 Alexzander  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:47:49pm

re: #154 Dark_Falcon

Agreed.

I'm NOT A PART OF YOUR SYSTEM!

172 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:48:06pm

re: #161 ggt

Can we switch to Buddy Guy and John Mayer at Farm Aid?

Not quite American Folk Music, but certainly home-grown.

Can we agree that there is music (like this) that is better than pot?

173 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:48:25pm

Okay...time for me to make like horse shit and hit the trail. Play nice, cowboys.

174 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:48:46pm

re: #170 b_sharp

I thought panderers were endangered because of the destruction of eucalyptus forests.

No that is not even worth bearing on.

175 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:48:49pm

re: #168 RogueOne

I think you might be right. I was confusing the Hague conventions with the 1st Geneva convention...I think.

Actually it might be the UN charter that is the issue.

176 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:49:16pm

re: #141 Obdicut

I am permanently suspicious of anyone who is rah-rah about torture.

Take that up with Obama. I would much rather be a Jihadi captured in the Bush era than today. At least under Bush there was a chance of getting a lawyer and a spot at Gitmo. I suspect many prisoners today are just "disappeared". I think people are kidding themselves if they think Obama's treatment is morally superior. It's just an illusion because it's under the radar and out of the press. I actually think he's much harsher and I don't consider that a bad thing.

177 Alexzander  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:49:55pm

Sometimes I get Darthstar and Dark_Falcon confused...awkward.

178 Amory Blaine  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:50:15pm

Wanna see some right wing love for Wisconsin teachers?

Read the comment section of my hometown paper.

179 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:51:20pm

re: #177 Alexzander

Sometimes I get Darthstar and Dark_Falcon confused...awkward.

Just upding this comment, and all will be forgiven.

180 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:52:00pm

BBL

181 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:53:20pm

re: #178 Amory Blaine

Wanna see some right wing love for Wisconsin teachers?

Read the comment section of my hometown paper.

My supplies of brain bleach are running dangerously low, so I'm avoiding newspaper comment sections for now. Let me guess, however: death threats, homosexual slurs, and accusations of running socialist indoctrination camps?

182 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:53:29pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

I don't see Obama as being rah-rah about torture, though. It's entirely possible torture is continuing at those gray sites. But he's not making long, twisted arguments about why it's okay and how it really produces good intel. I don't know whether torture is occurring at those sites; as I said, I hope it isn't given that torture is the stupidest way to go about getting intel, but it's possible we're still being stupid. It's possible Obama knows about it. I don't know. I do wish that I did know.

I think people are kidding themselves if they think Obama's treatment is morally superior. It's just an illusion because it's under the radar and out of the press. I actually think he's much harsher and I don't consider that a bad thing.

I'm a little puzzled by this, since it involves a ton of assumptions. The only thing you actually know is that rendition still occurs and we still have overseas prisons. There's no reason to believe there's more torture going on.

If what you're referring to is the drone strikes, I do think it's morally superior to kill an enemy than to torture them. It's hardly picking posies from the Basket of Moral Wonderfulness, but torture combines cruelty and pointlessness in an ugly way.

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:53:38pm

re: #163 ggt

Silly Hats seem to be a requirement. Along with self-made posters.

Code Pink spells better than the TPers, though. Mostly.

Although Zombie did trail them, or someone, on a march where they carried a large banner reading "5 Years To Many"--referring, I think, to Iraq.

Zombie was waiting for the other part of the sign, perhaps reading "Of Us Seems Like Too Long", but that was it.

184 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:54:33pm

re: #118 ggt

There is no law against bad taste or being a heartless bastard. One must act on those things with criminal intent to violate the law.

That's not a very PC way to describe the 'differently-circulated'.

185 bluecheese  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:55:38pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Take that up with Obama. I would much rather be a Jihadi captured in the Bush era than today. At least under Bush there was a chance of getting a lawyer and a spot at Gitmo. I suspect many prisoners today are just "disappeared". I think people are kidding themselves if they think Obama's treatment is morally superior. It's just an illusion because it's under the radar and out of the press. I actually think he's much harsher and I don't consider that a bad thing.

What do you base this on?

(im just curious how you came to this view)

186 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:55:41pm

Ignore this post.

187 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:55:52pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Take that up with Obama. I would much rather be a Jihadi captured in the Bush era than today. At least under Bush there was a chance of getting a lawyer and a spot at Gitmo. I suspect many prisoners today are just "disappeared". I think people are kidding themselves if they think Obama's treatment is morally superior. It's just an illusion because it's under the radar and out of the press. I actually think he's much harsher and I don't consider that a bad thing.

You know what they say about assuming right?

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:56:25pm

re: #166 Dark_Falcon

Very true. What shall we talk about, then?

Well, the butterflies are out to get us.

189 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:56:39pm

re: #186 b_sharp

I couldn't.

190 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:56:41pm

Japan has another new Prime Minister.

Last one lost face over the handling of the Earthquake and Nuclear stuff.

Is it just me, or do they seem more concerned with "honor" than with doing the right thing?

I know there is some of this in the US, but we have leaders who apologize and we move on. Consider Marion Barry . . .

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:56:52pm

re: #169 ggt

Would that be an example of elitists arrogance?

In a big honking way, yes.

192 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:57:04pm

re: #136 Obdicut
But the Hague has nothing substantial with Cheney. Just one letter of complaint from Francis Boyle as far as I know. Does he even have any standing? I doubt it. No investigation, no warrant, so all we would have is a false arrest.

Of all the real or alleged war criminals still on the loose, Cheney is pretty weak tea.

193 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:57:28pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Rock on, KT!

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:57:34pm

re: #172 ggt

Can we agree that there is music (like this) that is better than pot?

I don't like pot, so definitely.

195 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:58:03pm

re: #184 Decatur Deb

That's not a very PC way to describe the 'differently-circulated'.

I wasn't talking about Varek.

I was commenting on someone else's post.

:)

196 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:59:23pm

re: #178 Amory Blaine

Wanna see some right wing love for Wisconsin teachers?

Read the comment section of my hometown paper.

Nobody is forcing these people to work in New Berlin. Everyone has seen their benefits and work perks cut. Nobody likes it, but reality can be humbling sometimes. This isn't an attack on teachers as many liberals would like to call it. It's simply the painful process of showing fiscal restraint to people who never had to see it before. Teaching is a noble profession, but teachers aren't immune from acting in ignoble ways. So while they have rights to protest this, they should not be given a free pass when they act in ways that provide bad influence on our children.

There. Verbatim. RW love. Seems a rather civil comment to me.

197 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 4:59:35pm

re: #182 Obdicut

I'm a little puzzled by this, since it involves a ton of assumptions. The only thing you actually know is that rendition still occurs and we still have overseas prisons. There's no reason to believe there's more torture going on.

A quick google search reveals...
Target Of Obama-Era Rendition Alleges Torture
It continues but it's not a big deal because Obama tries to keep it on the down low instead of out in the open.

198 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:00:04pm

re: #188 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, the butterflies are out to get us.

I don't think that's true.

I cede to the Cat Overlord on these things tho.

199 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:00:27pm

re: #187 recusancy

You know what they say about assuming right?

You know what they say about googling, right? The information is easily available.

200 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:00:36pm

re: #192 Rightwingconspirator

Look. It's Belgium, and/or other European countries, not me, that would do it, if they did. I am not pretending to be a spokesperson for Belgium, or any other country.

201 Alexzander  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:00:37pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't like pot, so definitely.

High-Five for not liking pot.

202 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:00:44pm

re: #195 ggt

I wasn't talking about Varek.

I was commenting on someone else's post.

:)

Ah. Thought you were describing the Great Whiteguy Hunter and his Harbor Freight heart.

203 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:01:35pm

re: #197 Killgore Trout

A quick google search reveals...
Target Of Obama-Era Rendition Alleges Torture
It continues but it's not a big deal because Obama tries to keep it on the down low instead of out in the open.

ummm.....

204 KenJen  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:01:58pm

re: #197 Killgore Trout

A quick google search reveals...
Target Of Obama-Era Rendition Alleges Torture
It continues but it's not a big deal because Obama tries to keep it on the down low instead of out in the open.

TRANSPERENCY AT ITS BEST

205 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:02:43pm

re: #197 Killgore Trout

A quick google search reveals...
Target Of Obama-Era Rendition Alleges Torture
It continues but it's not a big deal because Obama tries to keep it on the down low instead of out in the open.

But what's your belief that it's actually more frequent and harsher? Where does that stem from?

206 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:04:52pm

re: #203 RogueOne

ummm...

Well, of course there will be some accusations from freed prisoners but Obama isn't going to discuss it openly like Bush did, or ask lawyers to write up publically available memos about it, or even have an open debate about it. That was Bush's mistake.

207 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:06:53pm

Johnny Cash and friends?

The Highway Men

208 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:07:32pm

re: #178 Amory Blaine

Wanna see some right wing love for Wisconsin teachers?

Read the comment section of my hometown paper.

From the sidebar of that story:

Sheboygan mayor says he won't resign
[Link: www.jsonline.com...]

Ryan, 48, gained national notoriety in September 2009 when a videotape showing him making sexually explicit remarks about his sister-in-law while drinking at a Sheboygan tavern was posted on YouTube. Jay Leno ridiculed him and the Common Council censured him at the time.

The former alderman was elected mayor in April 2009 but his personal alcohol abuse has continued to disrupt his first term in office.

Ryan inflamed calls for his removal in late July after he went on a three-day drinking binge in Elkhart Lake. Photos circulated publicly showing Ryan passed out at a tavern during the binge.

If he smoked instead of drank he wouldn't have found himself face down in a bar.

209 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:07:49pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

Well, of course there will be some accusations from freed prisoners but Obama isn't going to discuss it openly like Bush did, or ask lawyers to write up publically available memos about it, or even have an open debate about it. That was Bush's mistake.

Oh yeah. Bush was the guy who was too open. haha

210 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:08:09pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

I don't think characterizing the Bush administrations approach to torture as having an open debate about it in very accurate.

211 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:08:34pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

I thought you said Obama liked it on the down low and it confused me for a second. Carry on!

212 elisabeth  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:08:38pm

Are: #197 Killgore Trout

From your link:

The decision to seize Azar in Afghanistan apparently was made in April 2009, six weeks into the Obama administration. Documents filed by the Justice Department, however, suggest that plans for it were laid at least as early as December 2008, before the transition had occurred in Washington. The Justice Department declined to respond to requests for information about the identity of the official who authorized the special operation in Afghanistan to apprehend Azar and Cobos.

It hardly backs up your claim of some kind of widespread torture with presidential approval. The difference, however, between Bush and Obama (I sincerely hope, anyway, and I'd be mightily disappointed otherwise) is that Obama would not seek to justify the government's actions.

213 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:08:45pm

re: #205 Obdicut

But what's your belief that it's actually more frequent and harsher? Where does that stem from?

Because we aren't adding people into the court system or Gitmo anymore. Where do all the prisoners go? Are we not capturing them anymore? I'm sure we're capturing suspects in Afghanistan at more or less the same rate as before. What happens to them? I don;t know. Maybe Obama makes them a cake and tickles them until they convert to Christianity.

214 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:11:07pm

Cutness for the day: Little Lambs No Ivy

215 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:11:18pm

re: #137 Alexzander

The regular people of Afghanistan had little or nothing to do with 911. It is barely even 'a nation state' by most standards. Read "The Places Inbetween."
If anything it should have been Saudi Arabia.
But of course, none of this reasoning has anything to do with how we reacted after 911.

I must disagree. The regular people of Afghanistan were never who we were trying to kill. Their homes were not our targets. The people of Al Qaeda and the Taliban were the human targets of this war. Their bases/meeting places and command centers were the things we bombed. Their supplies and allies.

If the terror bases were in Saudi & the Saudi government allied with Al Qaeda then we would have been justified to attack Saudi. But that was just the national origin of the attackers.

216 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:11:32pm

re: #212 elisabeth

Jeez, can't lizards google anymore?
More on JSOC’s Secret Prisons in Afghanistan

217 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:12:16pm

re: #213 Killgore Trout

Because we aren't adding people into the court system or Gitmo anymore. Where do all the prisoners go? Are we not capturing them anymore? I'm sure we're capturing suspects in Afghanistan at more or less the same rate as before. What happens to them?

That really is an interesting point.

218 makeitstop  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:12:16pm

re: #127 ggt

I don't think he wants to go to Europe. I'm not sure he wants to leave his ranch in Texas.

He seems to like it there.

After 8 years as POTUS, I think I'd want to sit in a recliner for a very long time.

He doesn't have the ranch any more. He sold it after the election.

I believe he's living in a gated community around Dallas nowadays.

219 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:12:18pm

re: #213 Killgore Trout

.... Maybe Obama makes them a cake and tickles them until they convert to Christianity.

He's a huge fan of ann coulter. Everyone knows that. Before the waterboarding begins he personally beats each prisoner with a copy of her book "High Crimes and Misdemeanors".

220 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:12:49pm

re: #213 Killgore Trout

Or maybe they use the effective forms of interrogation, which involve co-opting and befriending the people you want to get information from.

I also don't think we're doing the giant roundups anymore that filled those prisons in the first place, the ones where we were paying Afghan villagers to turn in terrorists, many of whom turned out to, well, not be terrorists. So the rate has probably gone down quite a bit, yes.

I'll fully agree there probably is still torture occurring at the gray sites, and I do hold Obama accountable for that. Even if he's not encouraging it, he has not made any sort of public stand on the issue and it's probably tacitly occurring.

However, I don't see any support for your contention that it's harsher or more frequent under Obama. I also think that when you don't have a CiC who's openly championing torture, along with other members of the administration, fewer underlings are going to act on their own initiative and torture.

221 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:13:01pm

re: #213 Killgore Trout

Because we aren't adding people into the court system or Gitmo anymore. Where do all the prisoners go? Are we not capturing them anymore? I'm sure we're capturing suspects in Afghanistan at more or less the same rate as before. What happens to them? I don;t know. Maybe Obama makes them a cake and tickles them until they convert to Christianity.

Gitmo is not closed. Military trials are still going on. You know that right?

222 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:13:17pm

Google search

223 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:13:53pm

re: #216 Killgore Trout

The left is giving Obama a pass on some promises broken, and some tactics used by Bush/Cheney like rendition. That's what happens when partisanship clouds thinking.

224 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:14:38pm

I'm really liking the Farm Aid line-up.

Neil Young

225 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:14:43pm

This is the same shit that republicans pull on race. Obama's really the racist. Obama's really the elitist. Obama's really trying to screw the middle class. Obama's really the big torturer.

226 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:14:55pm

re: #215 Rightwingconspirator

It was more than the national origin of the attackers. The Saudis have funneled tons and tons of money into terrorism, not to mention their brutal repression of their own citizens. But they definitely have members of their royal family, ministers, and important citizens who fund groups that fund terrorism.

227 KenJen  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:15:34pm

re: #212 elisabeth

A

From your link:


It hardly backs up your claim of some kind of widespread torture with presidential approval. The difference, however, between Bush and Obama (I sincerely hope, anyway, and I'd be mightily disappointed otherwise) is that Obama would not seek to justify the government's actions.

What? The guy tries to justify everything. Im sure he can come up with a natural disaster to justify this.

228 Stanghazi  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:15:40pm

On iPhone - pita. Did anyone page the David Frum article about Perry's wealth? Tks

229 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:16:20pm

re: #223 Rightwingconspirator

The left is giving Obama a pass on some promises broken, and some tactics used by Bush/Cheney like rendition. That's what happens when partisanship clouds thinking.

I think the lefties just like the "out of sight, out of mind" approach. It makes them feel better. I think it works better from a public relations standpoint as well.

230 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:16:27pm

re: #227 KenJen

What? The guy tries to justify everything. Im sure he can come up with a natural disaster to justify this.

huh?

231 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:18:21pm

re: #229 Killgore Trout

Why do you always get nasty when discussing this issue? It seems not possible to talk about it with you without you alleging some pretty dark shit about those who disagree with you.

I mean, can't we have a nice, civilized discussion about torture anymore?
/

232 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:18:55pm

re: #226 Obdicut

It was more than the national origin of the attackers. The Saudis have funneled tons and tons of money into terrorism, not to mention their brutal repression of their own citizens. But they definitely have members of their royal family, ministers, and important citizens who fund groups that fund terrorism.

The KSA is so bizarre. There members of the Royal Family who want their country to be more Western and those that want it to revert back to the times of Saladin. The Royal Family is totally supported by the government, I can't remember how many now--but it's a definite strain on the economy.

They have to import workers, security measures that are necessary are beyond belief.

233 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:20:56pm

re: #215 Rightwingconspirator

I must disagree. The regular people of Afghanistan were never who we were trying to kill. Their homes were not our targets. The people of Al Qaeda and the Taliban were the human targets of this war. Their bases/meeting places and command centers were the things we bombed. Their supplies and allies.

If the terror bases were in Saudi & the Saudi government allied with Al Qaeda then we would have been justified to attack Saudi. But that was just the national origin of the attackers.

I wish it was that simple, that The Magic Kingdom was just the source of the personnel. It was also the center of the AQ philosophy, its funding, and it's political cover. The family Saud may officially say that it opposes AQ, and that may be true in that AQ calls for its downfall, but it certainly caters to the Imams that preach its intolerance and funds the Madrassas that spread its message to other countries.

Their hands are dripping in blood, both Western and Islamic. They really are second-hand killers.

234 Stanghazi  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:21:27pm

re: #227 KenJen

What? The guy tries to justify everything. Im sure he can come up with a natural disaster to justify this.

Omg Ken. What an idiotic, removed from reality comment. Fox News much?

235 Amory Blaine  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:22:12pm

re: #196 lostlakehiker

The meeting in the article is mostly about the New Berlins new handbook for their teachers. The community will require the teachers to pay penalties in order to quit their positions.

Some of the new rules seem punitive to say the least such as taking their microwaves away and requirements to beg for jury duty in the summer.

Here's some people heckling a New Berlin teacher speaking to the school board.

Youtube Video

You found a reasonable post. There are many others as well. I still think there's alot of anti teacher comments you can find.

236 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:22:20pm

re: #231 Obdicut

Why do you always get nasty when discussing this issue? It seems not possible to talk about it with you without you alleging some pretty dark shit about those who disagree with you.

I mean, can't we have a nice, civilized discussion about torture anymore?
/

Cause he loves himself some torture and hates himself some DFH's

237 KenJen  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:22:56pm

re: #230 JasonA

huh?

Maybe I took it the wrong way. Bush justifies toture. Obama doesnt?

238 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:24:08pm

re: #222 Killgore Trout

Google search

Good points!

239 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:24:30pm

Blue-Eye Kittehs!

I whaaaaaannnt one!

240 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:24:40pm

re: #226 Obdicut
But that's all far less than the real parameters for war. Like training bases for the 9/11 attacks and a fully co-opted Taliban. And lets remember rich Americans helped fund the troubles in Ireland.

But Britain rightly never saw that as cause to do anything here apart from work with our FBI. In fact Al Qaeda is a threat to the Royal family. Attacking or trying to destabilize Saudi would have helped AQ.

241 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:26:53pm

re: #240 Rightwingconspirator

But that's all far less than the real parameters for war. Like training bases for the 9/11 attacks and a fully co-opted Taliban.

I'm sorry, I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. I'm not saying Saudi Arabia was more responsible for 9/11 than Al Queda.

In fact Al Qaeda is a threat to the Royal family. Attacking or trying to destabilize Saudi would have helped AQ.

Well, yeah, because they're competitors. Al Qaeda hated and was a threat to Hussein, as well.

I'm kind of lost as to what point you're making.

242 palomino  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:29:24pm

re: #229 Killgore Trout

I think the lefties just like the "out of sight, out of mind" approach. It makes them feel better. I think it works better from a public relations standpoint as well.

Worked for the righties, so I'm sure "why not" is the attitude on the left.

243 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:29:30pm

My point is bombing or destabilizing Saudi would have been a horrific mistake. We attacked the correct country in the case of Afghanistan. Saudi would have been at least as big a mistake to attack as Iraq. Arguably far, far worse.

244 KenJen  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:30:26pm

re: #234 Stanley Sea

I dont have a tv. No fox news. I re read my comment. Stupid! Not the first time.

245 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:34:18pm

Not Necessarily Useless Fact of the Day:

hobbit is a word in Words with Friends and Strangers!

&

Simon and Garfunkel.

246 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:34:28pm

re: #241 Obdicut

Ah darn it. My #243 was a response to you.

No more pencil icon?

247 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:36:04pm

re: #246 Rightwingconspirator

Ah darn it. My #243 was a response to you.

No more pencil icon?

There is a statute of limitations of 2 minutes on the pencil.

248 engineer cat  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:37:56pm

re: #225 recusancy

This is the same shit that republicans pull on race. Obama's really the racist. Obama's really the elitist. Obama's really trying to screw the middle class. Obama's really the big torturer.

sometimes i feel like i'm dealing with an entire political party with borderline personality disorder with complications of narcissism

249 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:40:07pm

re: #243 Rightwingconspirator

My point is bombing or destabilizing Saudi would have been a horrific mistake. We attacked the correct country in the case of Afghanistan. Saudi would have been at least as big a mistake to attack as Iraq. Arguably far, far worse.

Um, yeah. We didn't, though, have to attack anywhere after Afghanistan. And there's no point at which attacking Iraq makes more sense than attacking Saudi Arabia, except that Saudi Arabia has Mecca and many more allies in the US congress than Iraq did.

It really is a terrible thing that we're allies with that bunch of murderous, oppressive, tyrannical bastards.

250 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:41:22pm

I need some information/advice/whatever.

Yesterday I went out to cut the lawn and whack some weeds with a weedwhacker. After about 25 minutes I started to run out of breath. I pushed through to get at least 1/2 of the job done but maybe ten minutes later I was puffing so badly I had to quit. I went into the house to sit down for a bit and it took about 20 minutes for my breathing to return close to normal and another ten minutes for the dizziness to go away. The nausea took hours to go away. This is the third time in about 6 months this has happened.

I don't want to go running to my doctor with the whiny complaint that 'I'm aging', so I want to know if anyone is familiar with these symptoms?

251 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:43:33pm

re: #243 Rightwingconspirator

My point is bombing or destabilizing Saudi would have been a horrific mistake. We attacked the correct country in the case of Afghanistan. Saudi would have been at least as big a mistake to attack as Iraq. Arguably far, far worse.

Can't agree. The Bush Admin had lost any real interest in Afghanistan by the spring of '02 ("I don't think it matters much whether he's dead or not." (GWB) Remember?) The whole Neocon dream was to secure Iraq as a literal wedge (note its shape) as a pressure point on SA, Syria, and Iran. The dream was to get them to lighten up on Israel and institute governmental change- creeping reform. How'd that work for us?

Attacking and taking out the family Saud would have been easy. There aren't that many of them and we know where they live. Likewise the more radical imams. The instability that would have followed would have been interesting to watch, wouldn't it? But we could have guided it, one JDAM at a time, until the moderates got the leash.

252 Amory Blaine  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:43:38pm

I would go in.

253 Amory Blaine  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:43:56pm

re: #252 Amory Blaine

I would go in.

re: #250 b_sharp

254 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:43:56pm

re: #250 b_sharp

Are you now, or ever have been, a smoker? Especially tobacco but also "alternatives"? And what part of the US (generally) do you live in?

255 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:44:31pm

re: #250 b_sharp

I need some information/advice/whatever.

I don't want to go running to my doctor with the whiny complaint that 'I'm aging', so I want to know if anyone is familiar with these symptoms?

Be a whiny and go see a doctor. Could be a hangover, or a clogged artery.

Want to know which?

256 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:44:34pm

re: #231 Obdicut

Why do you always get nasty when discussing this issue? It seems not possible to talk about it with you without you alleging some pretty dark shit about those who disagree with you.

I mean, can't we have a nice, civilized discussion about torture anymore?
/

Heh.
I just though of a nice example that I think sums up the differences between Bush and Obama's War on Terror.
KSM vs Bin Laden
Bush: KSM was arrested. They even published photos of him handcuffed in bed. They tuned him up at a secret site in Poland for a while and then shipped him off to Gitmo. He has a lawyer, visits from the Red Cross and he'll get some sort of trial eventually. Meanwhile he's fed, clothed, given books, watches movies, etc. I bet the weather in Cuba is nice this time of year.
Obama: Bin Laden was shot while unarmed in the middle of the night and his body was dumped at sea. I think his wives and children are still in pakistani custody, haven't heard anything from them in a while. One of his sons who lived at the compound has gone "missing". There were initial reports that one male captive was taken from the raid but there have been no updates. We may never hear from him again.

257 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:45:42pm

re: #254 wlewisiii

Are you now, or ever have been, a smoker? Especially tobacco but also "alternatives"? And what part of the US (generally) do you live in?

I quit smoking 30 years ago, haven't smoked pot for decades and just 9 years ago I was active in martial arts. I'm a Canuck.

258 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:45:46pm

re: #250 b_sharp

I need some information/advice/whatever.

Yesterday I went out to cut the lawn and whack some weeds with a weedwhacker. After about 25 minutes I started to run out of breath. I pushed through to get at least 1/2 of the job done but maybe ten minutes later I was puffing so badly I had to quit. I went into the house to sit down for a bit and it took about 20 minutes for my breathing to return close to normal and another ten minutes for the dizziness to go away. The nausea took hours to go away. This is the third time in about 6 months this has happened.

I don't want to go running to my doctor with the whiny complaint that 'I'm aging', so I want to know if anyone is familiar with these symptoms?

Go to the doctor asap. Shortness of breath is an early symptom of many cardiac conditions.

259 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:46:26pm

Americans give resounding 'no' on financial aid to rebuild Libya

Americans don't seem to agree on much these days, whether it's politics, climate change or Lady Gaga's gender-bending performance at the Video Music Awards. But there's one thing that an overwhelming majority of Americans appear to agree upon: They don't want to foot the bill for rebuilding Libya.

A CNN / ORC poll released Tuesday found that a stunning 73% oppose any U.S. financial aid to rebuild Libya's business and educational infrastructure, and 67% said the U.S. shouldn't be involved in "attempts to form a civilian government and restore order in that country."

The poll also found that 62% of those polled are worried about what lies ahead in Libya, with 67% believing there will be widespread violence. And 49% said they are either "not too confident" or "not confident at all" that the U.S. and its allies can prevent Al Qaeda or other terrorist groups from establishing a new base of operations in Libya.

260 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:49:09pm

re: #259 Gus 802

We still hold what? Some $30 billion of their dollars.

As I recall Kuwait actually paid something like that for its liberation. Why not Libya?

261 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:49:19pm

re: #250 b_sharp

I need some information/advice/whatever.

Yesterday I went out to cut the lawn and whack some weeds with a weedwhacker. After about 25 minutes I started to run out of breath. I pushed through to get at least 1/2 of the job done but maybe ten minutes later I was puffing so badly I had to quit. I went into the house to sit down for a bit and it took about 20 minutes for my breathing to return close to normal and another ten minutes for the dizziness to go away. The nausea took hours to go away. This is the third time in about 6 months this has happened.

I don't want to go running to my doctor with the whiny complaint that 'I'm aging', so I want to know if anyone is familiar with these symptoms?

could be as simple as allergies, or allergy induced asthma that you've developed. GO TO THE DOCTOR.

262 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:49:26pm

re: #255 Naso Tang

Be a whiny and go see a doctor. Could be a hangover, or a clogged artery.

Want to know which?

I never drink more than 2 beer or an ounce of Scotch at a time. I do this maybe once every couple of weeks.

I've gone to the guy half a dozen times the last year with complaints that turned out to be the result of turning into an old fart.

I don't have the time to keep doing that. Hell, I still haven't gotten a shoulder X-ray I was supposed to get a month ago.

263 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:50:03pm

re: #259 Gus 802

Americans give resounding 'no' on financial aid to rebuild Libya

It's NATO's call. We talked them into running the Op, and that worked well for us. Time for them to follow through on and repair what their bombs "blowed up, sir!"

264 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:50:09pm

And here's how much those two little wars have cost the USA so far.

$1,245,016,628,618

265 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:50:19pm

re: #262 b_sharp

I was kidding dummy. Go get a checkup. Now!!

266 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:50:37pm

re: #259 Gus 802

Americans give resounding 'no' on financial aid to rebuild Libya

Freedom is the only stimulus they need!
/Tea Partier

267 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:50:43pm

Tonight is my wedding anniversary. Zedushka and I have been together 40 years.

Instead of going out, I'm making Zedushka's favorite meals for the whole week, and he's setting the table and cleaning up.

268 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:51:00pm

re: #263 austin_blue

It's NATO's call. We talked them into running the Op, and that worked well for us. Time for them to follow through on and repair what their bombs "blowed up, sir!"

I'm sure they can afford to rebuild their own country with their own oil revenues.

269 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:51:02pm

re: #262 b_sharp

I never drink more than 2 beer or an ounce of Scotch at a time. I do this maybe once every couple of weeks.

I've gone to the guy half a dozen times the last year with complaints that turned out to be the result of turning into an old fart.

I don't have the time to keep doing that. Hell, I still haven't gotten a shoulder X-ray I was supposed to get a month ago.

Find a different doctor.

270 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:51:50pm

I think I like Elvis's version better.

271 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:51:59pm

re: #260 Naso Tang

We still hold what? Some $30 billion of their dollars.

As I recall Kuwait actually paid something like that for its liberation. Why not Libya?

Maybe the Saudis will pay us like they did for the Gulf War.

272 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:52:23pm

re: #267 Alouette

Tonight is my wedding anniversary. Zedushka and I have been together 40 years.

Instead of going out, I'm making Zedushka's favorite meals for the whole week, and he's setting the table and cleaning up.

didn't you order yourself something special for this anniversary?

273 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:52:55pm

re: #265 Naso Tang

I was kidding dummy. Go get a checkup. Now!!

No offense, but a close relative did a heart "stress test" recently and was in the hospital for a stent insert within 24 hours. He was only short of breath too.

274 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:53:06pm

re: #267 Alouette

Tonight is my wedding anniversary. Zedushka and I have been together 40 years.

Instead of going out, I'm making Zedushka's favorite meals for the whole week, and he's setting the table and cleaning up.

Mazel Tov! Many happy returns of the day.

275 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:53:09pm

re: #261 ggt

could be as simple as allergies, or allergy induced asthma that you've developed. GO TO THE DOCTOR.

I was tested for allergies 4 years ago. Nothing showed up.

Doesn't heat exhaustion result in similar symptoms?

I guess I'll see the doc next week. Sigh.

276 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:53:33pm

re: #250 b_sharp

I need some information/advice/whatever.

Yesterday I went out to cut the lawn and whack some weeds with a weedwhacker. After about 25 minutes I started to run out of breath. I pushed through to get at least 1/2 of the job done but maybe ten minutes later I was puffing so badly I had to quit. I went into the house to sit down for a bit and it took about 20 minutes for my breathing to return close to normal and another ten minutes for the dizziness to go away. The nausea took hours to go away. This is the third time in about 6 months this has happened.

I don't want to go running to my doctor with the whiny complaint that 'I'm aging', so I want to know if anyone is familiar with these symptoms?

Allergic reaction? Asthma?

277 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:53:51pm

re: #256 Killgore Trout

You deliberately failed to mention the part where KSM was waterboarded 183 times in one month, which failed to produce the name of Osama's courier. Later, under normal questioning he produced a nom de guerre for the courier which we already knew, but never produced the man's real name, which he knew.

The comparison fails to prove your thesis the that Obama is engaging in more frequent and vicious torture of prisoners.

278 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:54:44pm

re: #271 Gus 802

Maybe the Saudis will pay us like they did for the Gulf War.

Saudis?

279 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:54:51pm

re: #275 b_sharp

I was tested for allergies 4 years ago. Nothing showed up.

Doesn't heat exhaustion result in similar symptoms?


Yes, but the first was six months ago?

280 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:55:01pm

re: #257 b_sharp

I quit smoking 30 years ago, haven't smoked pot for decades and just 9 years ago I was active in martial arts. I'm a Canuck.

Odds are cardiac then. Get your ass in the doc ASAP.

281 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:55:51pm

re: #278 Naso Tang

Saudis?

Oh you know how they're always doing something in the background. Maybe they decided it was time for Gaddafi to go.

282 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:55:54pm

re: #268 Gus 802

I'm sure they can afford to rebuild their own country with their own oil revenues.

Just like Iraq!

283 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:56:05pm

re: #272 ggt

didn't you order yourself something special for this anniversary?

You mean other than my new Windows 7 system?

284 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:56:08pm

re: #262 b_sharp

I never drink more than 2 beer or an ounce of Scotch at a time. I do this maybe once every couple of weeks.

I've gone to the guy half a dozen times the last year with complaints that turned out to be the result of turning into an old fart.

I don't have the time to keep doing that. Hell, I still haven't gotten a shoulder X-ray I was supposed to get a month ago.

Go to an ER then.

285 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:56:20pm

re: #265 Naso Tang

I was kidding dummy. Go get a checkup. Now!!

I hate going to the doctor.

He's always threatening to shove his finger up my ass, but he never buys me flowers.

I guess I go.

286 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:58:02pm

re: #267 Alouette

Tonight is my wedding anniversary. Zedushka and I have been together 40 years.

Instead of going out, I'm making Zedushka's favorite meals for the whole week, and he's setting the table and cleaning up.

Have a great anniversary. You've done what most couples can't, congratulate yourselves.

287 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:58:08pm

re: #275 b_sharp

I was tested for allergies 4 years ago. Nothing showed up.

Doesn't heat exhaustion result in similar symptoms?

I guess I'll see the doc next week. Sigh.

dehydration can produce such symptoms, but why are you asking us.

NONE OF US ARE PHYSICIANS.

288 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:58:18pm

re: #267 Alouette

Tonight is my wedding anniversary. Zedushka and I have been together 40 years.

Instead of going out, I'm making Zedushka's favorite meals for the whole week, and he's setting the table and cleaning up.

I've only been married for 35, but she always makes my favorite meal and I always, mostly, set the table, help and clean up.

You need to think beyond next week.

289 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:58:56pm

re: #285 b_sharp

I hate going to the doctor.

He's always threatening to shove his finger up my ass, but he never buys me flowers.

I guess I go.

I could be worse..
He might not use the finger

290 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:59:10pm

re: #285 b_sharp

I hate going to the doctor.

He's always threatening to shove his finger up my ass, but he never buys me flowers.

I guess I go.

Maybe this time you'll get lucky and he will actually do it.

291 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:59:23pm

re: #273 Naso Tang

No offense, but a close relative did a heart "stress test" recently and was in the hospital for a stent insert within 24 hours. He was only short of breath too.

Thanks. I'll go see him next week.

292 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:59:25pm

re: #287 ggt

dehydration can produce such symptoms, but why are you asking us.

NONE OF US ARE PHYSICIANS.

But...but...I play one on TV!

293 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 5:59:44pm

re: #287 ggt

dehydration can produce such symptoms, but why are you asking us.

NONE OF US ARE PHYSICIANS.

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

294 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:01:01pm

re: #291 b_sharp

Thanks. I'll go see him next week.

Waiting a week introduces unmeasured risk and no benefit. If you need to go at all, go ASAP.

295 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:01:09pm

re: #284 wlewisiii

Go to an ER then.

Yeah, I'm leaning this direction as well.

You'll get a comprehensive physical if nothing else, complete with full blood workup.

You go in to the ER with possible cardiac symptoms and the place instantly transforms into some sort of Sci-Fi med lab.

I went a couple of years ago (turned out to be acid reflux) and I thought the world had turned inside out. Geez, I've never seen so many medical personal respond so quickly to one person in my life.

Glad they did. Even tho it cost me. Amazing what they can do.

296 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:01:36pm

re: #177 Alexzander

Sometimes I get Darthstar and Dark_Falcon confused...awkward.

Dark_Falcon doesn't say "fuck" nearly as often as I do (I'm sure he will concur). D_F thinks Eric Cantor and other Republicans are playing straight with Obama on the economy, I don't. I also don't think there's anything wrong with talking about the suspicions that Sarah Palin fucked Levi Johnston(suspicions, it should be noted, that I started spreading myself), whereas D_F gets his "Sam the Eagle" on and feigns shock when I do so.

There are other differences between us, of course(his infatuation with Ricky Martin being but one of them), but those two should help with 80% of what we say.

297 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:02:17pm

re: #294 Decatur Deb

Waiting a week introduces unmeasured risk and no benefit. If you need to go at all, go ASAP.

Agreed.

I guarantee the ER will not put their fingers up your ass if you present as a possible cardiac patient.

298 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:02:33pm

re: #279 austin_blue

Yes, but the first was six months ago?

About that. I didn't think much of it at the time, other than I may have gone past my endurance limit.

299 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:02:56pm

re: #250 b_sharp

See a doctor. TOMORROW. I'm not kidding.

Typical heart attack symptoms
Chest discomfort or pain
Upper body pain
Stomach pain
Shortness of breath
Anxiety
Lightheadedness
Sweating
Nausea and vomiting

Adult symptoms of hypertension
Abdominal pain
Blood in stool
Chest pain
Constipation
Cough
Diarrhea
Difficulty swallowing
Dizziness
Eye discomfort and redness
Foot pain or ankle pain
Foot swelling or leg swelling
Headaches
Heart palpitations
Hip pain
Knee pain
Low back pain
Nasal congestion
Nausea or vomiting
Neck pain
Numbness or tingling in hands
Pelvic pain: female
Pelvic pain: male
Shortness of breath
Shoulder pain
Sore throat
Urinary problems
Vision problems
Wheezing

300 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:03:07pm

re: #283 Alouette

You mean other than my new Windows 7 system?

Good for you.

301 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:03:07pm

re: #297 ggt

Agreed.

I guarantee the ER will not put their fingers up your ass if you present as a possible cardiac patient.

The way to a man's heart is not usually through his sphincter.

302 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:03:09pm

Watching MHP fill in for Maddow. There's a marsh fire near New Orleans? For the last three day? And the vehicles used to fight these things were cut out of the budget :(

303 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:03:19pm

re: #296 darthstar

Dark_Falcon doesn't say "fuck" nearly as often as I do (I'm sure he will concur). D_F thinks Eric Cantor and other Republicans are playing straight with Obama on the economy, I don't. I also don't think there's anything wrong with talking about the suspicions that Sarah Palin fucked Levi Johnston(suspicions, it should be noted, that I started spreading myself), whereas D_F gets his "Sam the Eagle" on and feigns shock when I do so.

There are other differences between us, of course(his infatuation with Ricky Martin being but one of them), but those two should help with 80% of what we say.

I was so disappointed when Ricky Martin came-out.
sigh

304 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:03:43pm

re: #295 ggt

Yeah, I'm leaning this direction as well.

You'll get a comprehensive physical if nothing else, complete with full blood workup.

You go in to the ER with possible cardiac symptoms and the place instantly transforms into some sort of Sci-Fi med lab.

I went a couple of years ago (turned out to be acid reflux) and I thought the world had turned inside out. Geez, I've never seen so many medical personal respond so quickly to one person in my life.

Glad they did. Even tho it cost me. Amazing what they can do.

Ayep, if you present with any of the signs of heart problems, they'll move heaven and earth to get you seen as quickly as possible. At least, so long as they worry you'll drop dead there on the spot. If you're in no immediate danger, then pack a lunch, you might be there awhile, depending on how backed up the ER is this time of night.

305 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:04:32pm

re: #304 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Ayep, if you present with any of the signs of heart problems, they'll move heaven and earth to get you seen as quickly as possible. At least, so long as they worry you'll drop dead there on the spot. If you're in no immediate danger, then pack a lunch, you might be there awhile, depending on how backed up the ER is this time of night.

I recommend calling the ambulance.

You get to cut in line that way.

306 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:04:36pm

re: #284 wlewisiii

Go to an ER then.

Missing the shoulder x-ray is my fault, not the docs. He gave me all the paperwork, I just haven't been able to make time.

307 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:05:18pm

re: #285 b_sharp

I hate going to the doctor.

Nobody loves going, but you have socialized medicine, so use it.

308 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:05:35pm

b_sharp

BE SHARP and go to the ER.

309 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:05:39pm

re: #287 ggt

dehydration can produce such symptoms, but why are you asking us.

NONE OF US ARE PHYSICIANS.

Yah, but some of you are older than me, so know more about old fartness.

310 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:06:03pm

re: #305 ggt

I recommend calling the ambulance.

You get to cut in line that way.

I wouldn't recommend doing that, unless you are showing the described signs. If you call an ambulance and you look and sound perfectly fine, you're not gonna make any friends. The time they take to cart you in is time that could be dedicated to somebody who really is on death's doorstep.

311 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:06:29pm

re: #289 HoosierHoops

I could be worse..
He might not use the finger

No chance, I'm too much of a tightass.

312 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:07:06pm

re: #306 b_sharp

Missing the shoulder x-ray is my fault, not the docs. He gave me all the paperwork, I just haven't been able to make time.

Yes Time on some things..
You ever notice anyone with a knee injury never misses an appointment?
/Hope you are ok

313 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:07:08pm

re: #310 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I wouldn't recommend doing that, unless you are showing the described signs. If you call an ambulance and you look and sound perfectly fine, you're not gonna make any friends. The time they take to cart you is time that could be dedicated to somebody who really is on death's doorstep.

I meant if you are having symptoms . . . .

314 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:08:18pm

re: #309 b_sharp

Yah, but some of you are older than me, so know more about old fartness.

It's not a joking matter, b. I watched my dad die of a heart attack on the kitchen floor. A massive heart attack will take you out in a matter of a couple of minutes, and trust me when I tell you it's NOT something you want your loved ones to witness. It's not a pretty sight.

315 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:08:58pm

re: #295 ggt

Yeah, I'm leaning this direction as well.

You'll get a comprehensive physical if nothing else, complete with full blood workup.

You go in to the ER with possible cardiac symptoms and the place instantly transforms into some sort of Sci-Fi med lab.

I went a couple of years ago (turned out to be acid reflux) and I thought the world had turned inside out. Geez, I've never seen so many medical personal respond so quickly to one person in my life.

Glad they did. Even tho it cost me. Amazing what they can do.

Maybe. I've seen people with limited insurance bankrupt themselves at an ER. Especially musicians I've known.

Wow. It sucks that I am capable of typing that in the USofA. When did we give up on the Social Contract? The Common Good?

316 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:09:03pm

re: #311 b_sharp

No chance, I'm too much of a tightass.

At 2 AM I caught this line from "Strange Days":

"He's such a tight ass that, when he farts, only dogs can hear him."

317 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:09:14pm

re: #313 ggt

I meant if you are having symptoms . . .

True, but if you show up at the ER showing those symptoms, and have an O2 stat of less than 90%, then you're going to get seen right away. Every second wasted is risking cardiac muscle damage, which does not repair itself and can eventually lead to cardiac failure.

So if you think you might have heart problems, get to the doctor. At worst, he'll run his tests, see no problems, and send you home. But if there are problems, and you dawdle because you're afraid of getting the Roto-Rooter treatment, then you might end up at the ER anyway, on your way to a heart transplant.

318 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:09:18pm

re: #285 b_sharp

I hate going to the doctor.

He's always threatening to shove his finger up my ass, but he never buys me flowers.

I guess I go.

Yes.
You go doctor now!
:)

319 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:09:19pm

re: #307 goddamnedfrank

Nobody loves going, but you have socialized medicine, so use it.

Seriously, again. I'm not sure you realize just how annoying it is to those of us without it to see someone not take the fullest goddamned advantage of such a wonderful thing.

320 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:11:35pm

4.2 × the number of stars in our galaxy = the amount of dollars we've spent in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.re: #311 b_sharp

No chance, I'm too much of a tightass.

OK. Go to the ER and come back later and tell us what they said. Go now. Doctor's orders.

321 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:11:38pm

re: #319 goddamnedfrank

Seriously, again. I'm not sure you realize just how annoying is to those of us without it to see someone not take the fullest goddamned advantage of such a wonderful thing.

And getting ahead of a heart condition, in a socialized medicine system by saving vast reparative costs, becomes patriotic. You owe it to the Canadian taxpayers.

322 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:11:53pm

re: #315 austin_blue

Maybe. I've seen people with limited insurance bankrupt themselves at an ER. Especially musicians I've known.

Wow. It sucks that I am capable of typing that in the USofA. When did we give up on the Social Contract? The Common Good?

About 1981 when the Reagan revolution began.

323 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:12:55pm

re: #296 darthstar

There are other differences between us, of course (his infatuation with Ricky Martin being but one of them), but those two should help with 80% of what we say.

Really, D_F has a horn job for Livin' La Vida Loco?

D_F, is this true?!?!?!?!

Madre de Dios!

324 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:13:22pm

re: #311 b_sharp

No chance, I'm too much of a tightass.

I'd seriously consider going to the ER. My dad had very similar symptoms before his heart attack. He needed bypass surgery.
He's fine now.
You, go!
Now!

325 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:14:04pm

re: #100 Obdicut

It's not necessary to find someone who was tried strictly for waterboarding, only that waterboarding was among the things that we considered torture.

It was. It is. It's torture.

It's a torture that little freak Pol Pot was very fond of, too.

Image: khmer-rouge-waterboarding.jpg

The claim at issue here was whether or not any Japanese was executed for waterboarding. Giving examples of Japanese who were charged with mass murder of prisoners, along with a boatload of other offenses, with waterboarding somewhere in the laundry list, and who were convicted on all counts and then executed, does not amount to proof that Japanese were "executed for waterboarding".

To prove that they were executed for waterboarding, you'd have to cite a case in which waterboarding, perhaps along with lesser charges, but not including any more serious charges, was the grounds for execution and the guy was in fact executed.

326 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:14:08pm

re: #303 ggt

I was so disappointed when Ricky Martin came-out.
sigh

Like that was a surprise. He probably just accepted to the reality that he had more men interested in him than women.

327 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:16:27pm

re: #325 lostlakehiker

The claim at issue here was whether or not any Japanese was executed for waterboarding. Giving examples of Japanese who were charged with mass murder of prisoners, along with a boatload of other offenses, with waterboarding somewhere in the laundry list, and who were convicted on all counts and then executed, does not amount to proof that Japanese were "executed for waterboarding".

To prove that they were executed for waterboarding, you'd have to cite a case in which waterboarding, perhaps along with lesser charges, but not including any more serious charges, was the grounds for execution and the guy was in fact executed.

They weren't. I recall twenty-five year sentences, though.

328 Atlas Fails  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:16:39pm

re: #91 Charles

Well, just to be clear about one thing, I'm not in favor of war crimes prosecutions for former top officials. I think that's a very dangerous precedent to set, and the case would have to be VERY compelling to get me to support it.

Amen. In a perfect world, I'd like to see Cheney have to answer for his actions. In reality, any sort of international trial would just be a parade of anti-Americanism and a black eye on the country.

329 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:17:22pm

re: #250 b_sharp

I need some information/advice/whatever.

Yesterday I went out to cut the lawn and whack some weeds with a weedwhacker. After about 25 minutes I started to run out of breath. I pushed through to get at least 1/2 of the job done but maybe ten minutes later I was puffing so badly I had to quit. I went into the house to sit down for a bit and it took about 20 minutes for my breathing to return close to normal and another ten minutes for the dizziness to go away. The nausea took hours to go away. This is the third time in about 6 months this has happened.

I don't want to go running to my doctor with the whiny complaint that 'I'm aging', so I want to know if anyone is familiar with these symptoms?

That's how my uncle died last week. Cutting the grass, got out of breath, went inside to lay down, died. Get yourself checked. You're just using the "I don't want to be whiny" thing as an excuse not to go.

330 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:17:33pm

My uncle kept having spells which he marked off a "indigestion" or "overwork." Then he nearly dropped dead of a heart attack and had to undergo bypass surgery. After the surgery, the doctors showed him the footage and pointed out the sections of dead muscle in his heart from the "mini-attacks" he'd been writing off.

Folks don't realize that the massive attack isn't what kills you, it's the months or years of smaller ones that leave your heart too weak to cope when that big one happens.

331 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:18:10pm

re: #250 b_sharp

Don't be a horse's ass. Go to the fuckin' doctor.

Geeze.

(Entirely un-politically correct joke)
An old woman is with an old man and they are about to "get busy" for the first time.
She says, "I should warn you; I have acute angina.
He says, "Thank goodness. 'Cause you have the ugliest tits I've ever seen."

332 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:18:26pm

re: #329 recusancy

That's how my uncle died last week. Cutting the grass, got out of breath, went inside to lay down, died. Get yourself checked. You're just using the "I don't want to be whiny" thing as an excuse not to go.

And he was only in his mid 50's and a yoga instructor.

333 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:19:16pm

re: #304 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Ayep, if you present with any of the signs of heart problems, they'll move heaven and earth to get you seen as quickly as possible. At least, so long as they worry you'll drop dead there on the spot. If you're in no immediate danger, then pack a lunch, you might be there awhile, depending on how backed up the ER is this time of night.

Yup.

334 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:19:26pm

re: #332 recusancy

And he was only in his mid 50's and a yoga instructor.

I like the blueberry - but only the fruit on the bottom kind...not the pre-mixed.

335 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:20:22pm

re: #329 recusancy

That's how my uncle died last week. Cutting the grass, got out of breath, went inside to lay down, died. Get yourself checked. You're just using the "I don't want to be whiny" thing as an excuse not to go.

I've often wondered if badly-designed lawnmower exhausts don't add to the heart attack rate by exposing overstressed bodies to a CO load. It would take a study involving carboxyhemoglobin tests in the ERs to find out.

336 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:20:28pm

re: #329 recusancy

Condolences on the loss of your uncle. Heart attacks suck.

337 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:20:28pm

re: #275 b_sharp

Don't take chances - shortness of breath can be any number of things - many of them bad. It could be a precursor to a heart attack, or it could be complications from your shoulder issue (liquid building up in your chest, etc.)

Oh, and if this scares you - it should. All the more reason to go to the doctor.
/not a doctor but I play one on the internet (because I stayed at a Holiday Inn once).

Seriously though, get to the doctors - the worst that will happen is that they see you and find that you're okay. Listen to your body and it's telling you something is wrong when you can't do your normal routine.

Did I mention that you should go see a doctor?

338 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:20:41pm

re: #332 recusancy

And he was only in his mid 50's and a yoga instructor.

"May the Schwartz be with youououououuou!"
-Yogurt, Spaceballs.

339 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:21:14pm

re: #312 HoosierHoops

Yes Time on some things..
You ever notice anyone with a knee injury never misses an appointment?
/Hope you are ok

I'm fine right now, just curious about what happened yesterday.

340 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:21:18pm

re: #326 darthstar

Like that was a surprise. He probably just accepted to the reality that he had more men interested in him than women.

Yeah, but that just improved his chances of getting laid by *two*!re: #328 Atlas Fails

Amen. In a perfect world, I'd like to say Cheney have to answer for his actions. In reality, any sort of international trial would just be a parade of anti-Americanism and a black eye on the country.

I just want to see him on his knees in front of the main Dallas post office performing "community service" for six months.

With a web cam.

Fitting punishment.

341 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:23:53pm

re: #336 CuriousLurker

Condolences on the loss of your uncle. Heart attacks suck.

Isn't it Eid al-Fitr today? Get out there, girl, and whoop it up!

342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:25:22pm

re: #339 b_sharp

I'm fine right now, just curious about what happened yesterday.

I just about guarandamnteee you that you have an arterial blockage.

Hell, they're just about to the point where they're gonna make pocket angioplasty kits. Problem like that is easy as hell to fix, and easier to die from.

Now. One more little instruction. If you don't go to the doctor, please have the courtesy to show a friend of yours how to log into your LGF account to INFORM US OF YOUR DEATH!

343 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:27:00pm

re: #339 b_sharp

I'm fine right now, just curious about what happened yesterday.

All the more reason to get in to see a doctor. At worst, he'll do like a lot of doctors do and lecture you on how your "bad habits" are slowly killing you and how you need to exercise more, eat less, and go on supplements. But if it really was a mini heart attack, then they'll be able to tell due to chemical markers in the blood from heart muscle death and go from there.

344 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:27:00pm

re: #341 austin_blue

Isn't it Eid al-Fitr today? Get out there, girl, and whoop it up!

Heh, yeah, it is. I'm chained to my desk until the end of the week. My boss has surgery tomorrow, so the phones are forwarded to me and there are bazillions of calls. I'm just thankful Ramadan's over now that I have to deal with a bunch of clients by phone.

345 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:27:22pm

re: #342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just about guarandamnteee you that you have an arterial blockage.

Hell, they're just about to the point where they're gonna make pocket angioplasty kits. Problem like that is easy as hell to fix, and easier to die from.

Now. One more little instruction. If you don't go to the doctor, please have the courtesy to show a friend of yours how to log into your LGF account to INFORM US OF YOUR DEATH!

Practicing your motivational speaking again?
/

346 simoom  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:27:50pm

Not linking directly to Newsmax, but I've excerpted a few noteworthy quotes from U.S. Congressmen using the President's estranged half-uncle as ammunition for conspiracy-laden character attacks:

Rep. Steve King, who sits on the House immigration subcommittee, said the Onyango Obama case “raises a troubling list of questions about the potential for preferential treatment.

“It is yet another reason Congress should hold hearings to expose President Obama’s executive amnesty program,” he said. "With an existing deportation order, it is not surprising to learn that 'Uncle Omar' Obama told police officers that his first call would be to his nephew in the White House. Now that the executive branch has gotten into the business of undermining the rule of law, there is little question that anyone who is connected to the president, politically or otherwise, will have an advantage.”

...

Freshman Republican Rep. Joe Walsh said, “This is the height of irony. Just a couple of weeks after the president sends out an executive order his uncle, who shouldn’t be here in the first place, gets arrested.

“The timing is just exquisite," the Illinois congressman told Newsmax.

“They said 300,000 cases would be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Is this guy on that list and who is going to be looking at his case? I trust it is not the president. There could be a massive conflict of interest here.”

...

And Texas Rep. Louis Gohmert told Newsmax, “This is one more example of where the president is in a position where he can give favorable treatment to his cronies, and in this case a relative.

“It’s one more step making us look like a Third World corrupt government where it’s all about who you know.”

Lord only knows what we'll hear next from the Three Stooges of the House GOP.

347 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:27:56pm

re: #250 b_sharp

I need some information/advice/whatever.

Yesterday I went out to cut the lawn and whack some weeds with a weedwhacker. After about 25 minutes I started to run out of breath. I pushed through to get at least 1/2 of the job done but maybe ten minutes later I was puffing so badly I had to quit. I went into the house to sit down for a bit and it took about 20 minutes for my breathing to return close to normal and another ten minutes for the dizziness to go away. The nausea took hours to go away. This is the third time in about 6 months this has happened.

I don't want to go running to my doctor with the whiny complaint that 'I'm aging', so I want to know if anyone is familiar with these symptoms?

Go see your doctor. Call tomorrow.

348 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:28:21pm

re: #256 Killgore Trout

Heh.
I just though of a nice example that I think sums up the differences between Bush and Obama's War on Terror.
KSM vs Bin Laden
Bush: KSM was arrested. They even published photos of him handcuffed in bed. They tuned him up at a secret site in Poland for a while and then shipped him off to Gitmo. He has a lawyer, visits from the Red Cross and he'll get some sort of trial eventually. Meanwhile he's fed, clothed, given books, watches movies, etc. I bet the weather in Cuba is nice this time of year.
Obama: Bin Laden was shot while unarmed in the middle of the night and his body was dumped at sea. I think his wives and children are still in pakistani custody, haven't heard anything from them in a while. One of his sons who lived at the compound has gone "missing". There were initial reports that one male captive was taken from the raid but there have been no updates. We may never hear from him again.

You find anything objectionable about killing OBL? Why give him any chance? Raids are iffy enough as it is. What if he had a bomb built into his hip? You try to carry him away, and blooey. Scratch one Seal Team. What if there had been more bodyguards on site? In principle, we might have lost the fight. He might have got away. In combat, and whether OBL himself was fighting is irrelevant, you just kill the target and that's final. Losing the next roll of the dice can't undo that.

In army vs. army combat, officers who are just walking around giving instructions to the grunts are absolutely fair game for snipers. Same principle. OBL was a combatant whether he was packing heat or not.


You find anything objectionable about just walking away and leaving the family to sort things out with the Pakistani authorities? Who, after all, is in charge of Pakistan? We didn't have any reason to concern ourselves with the rest of the family. They're noncombatants. Or, all but the one wife was, and we shot her in the leg and she'll live.

The conduct of that raid was proper. Too bad we lost a copter, but that's just the chances of war. (And it serves to make my point: you just never know. The only way to make sure OBL doesn't somehow escape in the confusion is to kill him the first chance you get.)

349 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:28:40pm

re: #345 Cannadian Club Akbar

Practicing your motivational speaking again?
/

Note to self: Leave instructions on how to inform lizards of my demise.

/

350 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:29:11pm

re: #343 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

All the more reason to get in to see a doctor. At worst, he'll do like a lot of doctors do and lecture you on how your "bad habits" are slowly killing you and how you need to exercise more, eat less, and go on supplements. But if it really was a mini heart attack, then they'll be able to tell due to chemical markers in the blood from heart muscle death and go from there.

Yeah, that freaks me out. When I was in they were concerned with some enzyme marker in my bloodwork that could have indicated a stroke (IIRC). Kept me for another 2 hours checking it out.

Strokes are the think in my family, not cardiac issues, so I was majorly freaked-out.

In the end they gave me a script for tummy meds.

351 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:29:13pm

re: #349 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Note to self: Leave instructions on how to inform lizards of my demise.

/

My message will be the earth asploding.

352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:29:25pm

re: #345 Cannadian Club Akbar

What can I say? Some people have a way with words. Others have... uh... not way.

353 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:29:39pm

re: #327 austin_blue

They weren't. I recall twenty-five year sentences, though.

Exactly. Lesser offense, lesser sentence. Serious business, serious sentence. But not a hanging offense.

354 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:30:01pm

re: #339 b_sharp

I'm fine right now, just curious about what happened yesterday.

Oh, FFS! Yeah, you're fine right now, and you'll be fine until next time WHEN YOU MIGHT END UP DEAD.

355 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:30:04pm

re: #341 austin_blue

Yes, it's Eid. And apparently there was a little dustup at Rye Playland today when a group of Muslims went to the amusement park and women were not allowed to ride.

Police from at least nine other agencies converged on the park beginning at 3 p.m. after county police sought assistance in responding to the disturbance, which involved about 30 to 40 people. Twelve men and three women were arrested, mostly for disorderly conduct, and two park rangers were injured, authorities said. Two people were charged with felony assault after, officials said, they attacked park rangers.

The park was crowded with Muslims celebrating Eid-ul-Fitr, one of Islam's two major holidays. Most were from community groups around New York City as part of a day-long event arranged by the Muslim American Society of New York.

Parks officials had “painstakingly” told the organizer about the headgear ban, said Deputy Parks Commissioner Peter Tartaglia, but he said that the rules might not have been communicated by the organizer to some attendees. The ban was implemented about four years ago to keep hats and other head coverings from landing on tracks and derailing rides.

“It’s a safety issue on rides. If it’s a scarf, you could choke,” Tartaglia said.

Accounts of what had happened varied, but everyone agreed the dispute began after park-goers were told the headgear ban applied to women wearing traditional Muslim head coverings, known as hijabs.

Tartaglia said once word of that got out there were “a lot of unhappy people.”

He said park officials were in the process of arranging refunds when members of the Muslim group got into a scuffle with each other.

More than a dozen people were arrested when some of the women were not allowed to ride (they were wearing hijabs) and there was some kind of dispute between several Muslims among the group.

The headgear ban was imposed by the park following a deadly derailment a couple of years ago and is meant for safety of everyone on the ride. I get that - and it's unfortunate that the rules weren't told to everyone participating ahead of time. Someone dropped the ball and instead of celebrating the day, we get a bunch of arrests.

356 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:31:52pm

re: #355 lawhawk

Yes, it's Eid. And apparently there was a little dustup at Rye Playland today when a group of Muslims went to the amusement park and women were not allowed to ride.

More than a dozen people were arrested when some of the women were not allowed to ride (they were wearing hijabs) and there was some kind of dispute between several Muslims among the group.

The headgear ban was imposed by the park following a deadly derailment a couple of years ago and is meant for safety of everyone on the ride. I get that - and it's unfortunate that the rules weren't told to everyone participating ahead of time. Someone dropped the ball and instead of celebrating the day, we get a bunch of arrests.

It's a safety issue.

357 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:32:05pm

re: #345 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was trying to do the equivalent of a Rescue worker trying to get someone to evacuate before a FUCKING HURRICANE!

"May I have the name of your next of kin? Thank you. Now, please take this sharpie and write your name and social security number on you arms and torso to help us identify you later."

358 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:32:53pm

re: #350 ggt

Yeah, that freaks me out. When I was in they were concerned with some enzyme marker in my bloodwork that could have indicated a stroke (IIRC). Kept me for another 2 hours checking it out.

Strokes are the think in my family, not cardiac issues, so I was majorly freaked-out.

In the end they gave me a script for tummy meds.

Yeah, it's what they were looking for in my bloodwork when I was in the ER a couple years back. Had been suffering this really bad shoulder pain and worried that it might be heart related. Heart diseases pretty much runs rampant in my genetic background, having claimed my paternal grandfather and eldest aunt, and nearly the uncle I mentioned. So they took blood, a couple x-rays, and an EKG. Spent 4 hours sitting in a cold room, wearing a hospital gown, just to be told that it was potentially irritation of some kind in the joint, possibly early on-set arthritis.

So yeah, I've gone through the routine when you've got a family of heart disease and show up to the ER complaining of potential heart-related symptoms. They don't mess around.

359 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:33:00pm

re: #355 lawhawk

Someone dropped the ball and instead of celebrating the day, we get a bunch of arrests.

Where I'm from it's not a proper celebration until someone arrests grandma.

360 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:33:53pm

re: #357 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I was trying to do the equivalent of a Rescue worker trying to get someone to evacuate before a FUCKING HURRICANE!

"May I have the name of your next of kin? Thank you. Now, please take this sharpie and write your name and social security number on you arms and torso to help us identify you later."

"And while you're at it, be kind enough to write 'I'M A DUMBASS!' on your forehead, so that we can get to your body at our convenience. Thanks."

/

361 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:35:01pm

re: #302 JasonA

Watching MHP fill in for Maddow. There's a marsh fire near New Orleans? For the last three day? And the vehicles used to fight these things were cut out of the budget :(

We've got the smoke haze in Baton Rouge right now.

I don't know about the vehicles used to fight these things.
This particular fire is on a section of land that's completely surrounded by water. It ain't going anywhere, other than where it is right now.

362 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:36:12pm

So I've been here for a long time..Close to 30000 posts..I talk too much..
Have I ever asked for your opinion? once?
So check this out..A moral dilemma..
Today the maid came by to get paid..But because of our Schedule..Winston and I had lunch down on the banks of Thunderbird Lake..She had to swing by at an unexpected time today..
She was wearing a 25 year old Throw back Raiders Jersey of mine.. I was stunned..I couldn't say anything.. A few weeks ago I wanted to post that my life has became a Seinfeld episode.. It always seemed the maid was stealing little stuff..I really like her...I know she really needs the money but the Raiders jersey might have been a bridge too far...
So...How do I talk to her? I don't want to hurt her feelings and she is an awesome maid...She keeps this place sharp and neat..
But she stole my Raiders Jersey and I haven't found my Gonzales Colts Jersey..
I have a hundred Sports Jerseys...You see where I'm going with this?
Will I end a relationship with her over this? How many Jerseys have I been given? Dozens at least...But that bitch took my Raiders Jersey!
She did look good..But that's besides the point! LOL
So? What do you think? ( 5 words I may never post again)

363 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:36:32pm

re: #250 b_sharp

I need some information/advice/whatever.

Yesterday I went out to cut the lawn and whack some weeds with a weedwhacker. After about 25 minutes I started to run out of breath. I pushed through to get at least 1/2 of the job done but maybe ten minutes later I was puffing so badly I had to quit. I went into the house to sit down for a bit and it took about 20 minutes for my breathing to return close to normal and another ten minutes for the dizziness to go away. The nausea took hours to go away. This is the third time in about 6 months this has happened.

I don't want to go running to my doctor with the whiny complaint that 'I'm aging', so I want to know if anyone is familiar with these symptoms?

Try rubbing a crystal on your forehead while holding a dead chicken over an open fire - but it has to be sustainably cut rainforest wood. Then visualize yourself standing in front of a telephone...you pick it up...you dial a number...you press 1 for English...you press 2 for new appointments...you press 0 for an operator...you press 0 for an operator...you press 0 for an operator...you press 0 for an operator...you press 0 for an operator...you press 0 for an operator...you get to the operator and you tell her YOU NEED TO SEE YOUR FUCKING DOCTOR!

In fact, skip the first few steps - just drive on down and say you want an appointment in the next 48 hours and you don't want to fuck around with the phone system.

364 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:36:45pm

re: #360 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"And while you're at it, be kind enough to write 'I'M A DUMBASS!' on your forehead, so that we can get to your body at our convenience. Thanks."

/

Write whatever you want. It looks different when the body bloats. Or like a Tramp Stamp a 45 year old woman has from when she was 23.
/

365 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:37:02pm

re: #351 Varek Raith

Where was the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!

366 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:37:08pm

re: #361 reine.de.tout

We've got the smoke haze in Baton Rouge right now.

I don't know about the vehicles used to fight these things.
This particular fire is on a section of land that's completely surrounded by water. It ain't going anywhere, other than where it is right now.

They said the smoke can be a hazard to some people, though.

367 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:37:13pm

re: #351 Varek Raith

My message will be the earth asploding.

I've been contemplating, on and off, how I want my funeral to go. Figure, to start things off, I'll burn a CD with songs I feel appropriate. Track one: Another One Bites the Dust.

368 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:37:35pm

January 9, 2011
Apple’s Disdain for Philanthropy Is Rotten for Charities and Society
By Vincent Stehle

Holiday season is always a time for giving—but not on your iPhone.

That’s because Apple doesn’t allow nonprofits or other organizations to include a direct donation system in the phone’s applications, so the only way to give is to go to a charity’s Web site, a cumbersome process with a small phone-size keyboard.

The only question: Is it a mere glitch or a natural extension of Apple’s policy that is generally indifferent to nonprofits and philanthropy?

The company’s policies toward philanthropy and nonprofits are growing increasingly problematic as Apple products become an ever larger part of our media and communications landscape.

Continues

Fascinating considering they have more money than Exxon or the Fed.

369 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:38:16pm

re: #356 ggt

It's a safety issue.

Yeah, but it's never been an issue before. Aside form Eid there are several areas, NJ included, that have Muslim Family Day at amusement parks, so someone screwed up. I guess they'll have to check in advance from now on. I can't imagine why it got to the point of people getting arrest though—I guess I'll have to go read the article.

370 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:38:30pm

re: #250 b_sharp

I need some information/advice/whatever.

Yesterday I went out to cut the lawn and whack some weeds with a weedwhacker. After about 25 minutes I started to run out of breath. I pushed through to get at least 1/2 of the job done but maybe ten minutes later I was puffing so badly I had to quit. I went into the house to sit down for a bit and it took about 20 minutes for my breathing to return close to normal and another ten minutes for the dizziness to go away. The nausea took hours to go away. This is the third time in about 6 months this has happened.

I don't want to go running to my doctor with the whiny complaint that 'I'm aging', so I want to know if anyone is familiar with these symptoms?

Sorry to be pessimistic, but that sounds way serious to me. I'm not a doctor, but I play one on the internet...in other words, all I can say is I'm a civilian who has taken a bit of an interest in medicine and read widely, and what you're reporting sounds serious.

You know the joke about the guy who prayed for deliverance from rising waters, and a boat, another boat, and a copter showed up but he turned the rides down? I'd accept a ride to the doctor tomorrow and lay all those cards on the table. Downside? You lose a few hundred dollars and an afternoon, but they tell you it was just too hot and stay hydrated, or something. Nobody will be put out with you for wasting their time; it's a good enough fit to heart trouble symptoms to be worth a look-see.

Upside? The doctor says oh shit let's schedule you for bypass surgery at 3PM. And you live. Or maybe it's not that dramatic, but things must be done and the doing is set in motion. And you live.

Choose life. Go see the doctor.

371 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:38:32pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

Yeah, I think she's crossed a line. Not sure you can trust her now, can you?

372 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:39:37pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

You can find someone who will keep your house lovely who doesn't steal from you.

373 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:39:50pm

re: #364 Cannadian Club Akbar

Write whatever you want. It looks different when the body bloats. Or like a Tramp Stamp a 45 year old woman has from when she was 23.
/

I love tramp-stamps. I think they're the best American tradition in years.

374 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:40:21pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

I need to know more about the maid first. Exactly how good did she look in your jersey?

375 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:40:50pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

So I've been here for a long time..Close to 30000 posts..I talk too much..
Have I ever asked for your opinion? once?
So check this out..A moral dilemma..
Today the maid came by to get paid..But because of our Schedule..Winston and I had lunch down on the banks of Thunderbird Lake..She had to swing by at an unexpected time today..
She was wearing a 25 year old Throw back Raiders Jersey of mine.. I was stunned..I couldn't say anything.. A few weeks ago I wanted to post that my life has became a Seinfeld episode.. It always seemed the maid was stealing little stuff..I really like her...I know she really needs the money but the Raiders jersey might have been a bridge too far...
So...How do I talk to her? I don't want to hurt her feelings and she is an awesome maid...She keeps this place sharp and neat..
But she stole my Raiders Jersey and I haven't found my Gonzales Colts Jersey..
I have a hundred Sports Jerseys...You see where I'm going with this?
Will I end a relationship with her over this? How many Jerseys have I been given? Dozens at least...But that bitch took my Raiders Jersey!
She did look good..But that's besides the point! LOL
So? What do you think? ( 5 words I may never post again)

Be sure they're your jerseys. Then tell her the jerseys are special to you and you need them back. Then either fire her or try to give her a raise.

376 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:40:53pm

re: #367 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I've been contemplating, on and off, how I want my funeral to go. Figure, to start things off, I'll burn a CD with songs I feel appropriate. Track one: Another One Bites the Dust.

Gotta have "Shout at the Devil" on there

377 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:40:55pm

I may have to actually buy this.

378 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:41:05pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

So I've been here for a long time..Close to 30000 posts..I talk too much..
Have I ever asked for your opinion? once?
So check this out..A moral dilemma..
Today the maid came by to get paid..But because of our Schedule..Winston and I had lunch down on the banks of Thunderbird Lake..She had to swing by at an unexpected time today..
She was wearing a 25 year old Throw back Raiders Jersey of mine.. I was stunned..I couldn't say anything.. A few weeks ago I wanted to post that my life has became a Seinfeld episode.. It always seemed the maid was stealing little stuff..I really like her...I know she really needs the money but the Raiders jersey might have been a bridge too far...
So...How do I talk to her? I don't want to hurt her feelings and she is an awesome maid...She keeps this place sharp and neat..
But she stole my Raiders Jersey and I haven't found my Gonzales Colts Jersey..
I have a hundred Sports Jerseys...You see where I'm going with this?
Will I end a relationship with her over this? How many Jerseys have I been given? Dozens at least...But that bitch took my Raiders Jersey!
She did look good..But that's besides the point! LOL
So? What do you think? ( 5 words I may never post again)

Break it off. Trust once broken cannot be restored or repaired. But let it go. Don't blackball her or give a bad reference. Simply decline to give an reference and let her know that's how it will be.

Don't say anything about why. She can figure it out.

379 recusancy  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:41:12pm

re: #368 Gus 802

January 9, 2011
Apple’s Disdain for Philanthropy Is Rotten for Charities and Society
By Vincent Stehle

Fascinating considering they have more money than Exxon or the Fed.

Is that still the case?

380 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:41:17pm

re: #368 Gus 802

I think part of it has to do with that being considered in-app purchasing, for which they get a cut. A rather significant cut.

381 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:41:40pm

re: #376 RogueOne

Gotta have "Shout at the Devil" on there

Of course, that's Track Two. Track Three: Highway To Hell.

382 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:41:54pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

When I hear Seinfeld and cleaning lady in the same sentence, I think of this:

Youtube Video
383 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:42:20pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

So I've been here for a long time..Close to 30000 posts..I talk too much..
Have I ever asked for your opinion? once?
So check this out..A moral dilemma..
Today the maid came by to get paid..But because of our Schedule..Winston and I had lunch down on the banks of Thunderbird Lake..She had to swing by at an unexpected time today..
She was wearing a 25 year old Throw back Raiders Jersey of mine.. I was stunned..I couldn't say anything.. A few weeks ago I wanted to post that my life has became a Seinfeld episode.. It always seemed the maid was stealing little stuff..I really like her...I know she really needs the money but the Raiders jersey might have been a bridge too far...
So...How do I talk to her? I don't want to hurt her feelings and she is an awesome maid...She keeps this place sharp and neat..
But she stole my Raiders Jersey and I haven't found my Gonzales Colts Jersey..
I have a hundred Sports Jerseys...You see where I'm going with this?
Will I end a relationship with her over this? How many Jerseys have I been given? Dozens at least...But that bitch took my Raiders Jersey!
She did look good..But that's besides the point! LOL
So? What do you think? ( 5 words I may never post again)

Talk to her about the one you saw her wearing. No need to get all angry or anything; maybe she spilled something while working and had to "borrow" one or two of your jerseys, and you're just reminding her to give them back.

When you've got them back- let her go. It doesn't matter how great she is. She has taken things and has noticed that you don't say anything to her. The next time it might be something more valuable. Get the shirts back, and then tell her nicely, that her services are no longer needed.

384 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:42:22pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

So I've been here for a long time..Close to 30000 posts..I talk too much..
Have I ever asked for your opinion? once?
So check this out..A moral dilemma..
Today the maid came by to get paid..But because of our Schedule..Winston and I had lunch down on the banks of Thunderbird Lake..She had to swing by at an unexpected time today..
She was wearing a 25 year old Throw back Raiders Jersey of mine.. I was stunned..I couldn't say anything.. A few weeks ago I wanted to post that my life has became a Seinfeld episode.. It always seemed the maid was stealing little stuff..I really like her...I know she really needs the money but the Raiders jersey might have been a bridge too far...
So...How do I talk to her? I don't want to hurt her feelings and she is an awesome maid...She keeps this place sharp and neat..
But she stole my Raiders Jersey and I haven't found my Gonzales Colts Jersey..
I have a hundred Sports Jerseys...You see where I'm going with this?
Will I end a relationship with her over this? How many Jerseys have I been given? Dozens at least...But that bitch took my Raiders Jersey!
She did look good..But that's besides the point! LOL
So? What do you think? ( 5 words I may never post again)

She has been STEALING from you and you ask what to do?

FIRE HER ASS and don't give good references.

385 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:42:59pm

re: #374 RogueOne

heh

386 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:44:07pm

re: #366 JasonA

They said the smoke can be a hazard to some people, though.

Well sure it is! I know, because it's a hazard to me.

387 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:44:15pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

Out of curiosity, how did you find this person? Are they at OU as a student?

388 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:44:30pm

Oh, here's some good news.

Planned Parenthood Kansas Ruling: Judge Orders State To Resume Funding

389 engineer cat  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:45:20pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

So I've been here for a long time..Close to 30000 posts..I talk too much..
Have I ever asked for your opinion? once?
So check this out..A moral dilemma..
Today the maid came by to get paid..But because of our Schedule..Winston and I had lunch down on the banks of Thunderbird Lake..She had to swing by at an unexpected time today..
She was wearing a 25 year old Throw back Raiders Jersey of mine.. I was stunned..I couldn't say anything.. A few weeks ago I wanted to post that my life has became a Seinfeld episode.. It always seemed the maid was stealing little stuff..I really like her...I know she really needs the money but the Raiders jersey might have been a bridge too far...
So...How do I talk to her? I don't want to hurt her feelings and she is an awesome maid...She keeps this place sharp and neat..
But she stole my Raiders Jersey and I haven't found my Gonzales Colts Jersey..
I have a hundred Sports Jerseys...You see where I'm going with this?
Will I end a relationship with her over this? How many Jerseys have I been given? Dozens at least...But that bitch took my Raiders Jersey!
She did look good..But that's besides the point! LOL
So? What do you think? ( 5 words I may never post again)

have sex with her the next time she wears the jersey and put it on afterwards instead of the shirt you wore there
//

390 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:45:20pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

Tell her you want her to stop stealing your clothes and that you'd like your Raiders jersey back...or maybe that you're willing to negotiate. ;)

391 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:45:44pm

re: #387 ProLifeLiberal

Out of curiosity, how did you find this person? Are they at OU as a student?

I feel confident that if he had found an OU co-ed wearing his clothes we'd already have seen the pictures by now.

392 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:45:45pm

More good news.

Texas Sonogram Law: Judge Strikes Down Key Provisions Of Abortion Bill

AUSTIN, Texas — A federal judge on Tuesday blocked key provisions of Texas' new law requiring a doctor to perform a sonogram before an abortion, ruling the measure violates the free speech rights of both doctors and patients.

Damn activist judges are really... active today.

393 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:46:56pm

re: #391 RogueOne

Good point.

394 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:47:11pm

re: #277 goddamnedfrank

You deliberately failed to mention the part where KSM was waterboarded 183 times in one month, which failed to produce the name of Osama's courier.

That was the part about being tuned up in Poland which I mentioned. This is also part of the reason why Obama has no interest in giving Bin Laden a trial in open court. The evidence that lead to his capture execution was not all gathered from kosher methods. Better to just shoot him on sight, lawyers are so troublesome.

395 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:47:51pm

re: #388 JasonA

Oh, here's some good news.

Planned Parenthood Kansas Ruling: Judge Orders State To Resume Funding

re: #392 JasonA

More good news.

Texas Sonogram Law: Judge Strikes Down Key Provisions Of Abortion Bill

Damn activist judges are really... active today.

Huh, what do you know, the system does work!

396 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:47:55pm

re: #267 Alouette

What's on the menu??

397 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:48:48pm

re: #339 b_sharp

One more thing; and I'll let you die... imeanletitdrop...

I had chest pains once, went to the doc... they hooked me up to a gazillion machines and the diagnosis was that I had a viral infection in my heart muscle which made it swell up.

It was a simple little thing; I apologized to the doctor for wasting his time. He said, "Are you nuts!?!? You did absolutely the right thing by coming in! Don't mess around with chest pain."

398 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:49:21pm

If she's dumb enough to wear a jersey she swiped in front of you then she's probably already taken something you really like.

399 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:49:46pm

re: #81 darthstar

Code Pink, while I agree with their anti-war position, is about as relevant as a room full of teabaggers on scooters with dead batteries.

Rotfl!

400 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:49:57pm

re: #398 RogueOne

If she's dumb enough to wear a jersey she swiped in front of you then she's probably already taken something you really like.

Seriously, she's playing you.

GET RID OF HER.

401 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:50:41pm

re: #398 RogueOne

If she's dumb enough to wear a jersey she swiped in front of you then she's probably already taken something you really like.

She's walking Winston in the nude?

402 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:50:44pm

re: #398 RogueOne

If she's dumb enough to wear a jersey she swiped in front of you then she's probably already taken something you really like.

"I'll get you Hoosier Hoops!! And your little dog too"!!

403 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:50:46pm

re: #348 lostlakehiker

You find anything objectionable about killing OBL? Why give him any chance?

You misunderstand me. I prefer Obama's methods but I'm going to make no pretense of claiming the moral high ground for doing so. He's a bad motherfucker, god bless him for it.

404 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:51:22pm

re: #379 recusancy

Is that still the case?

More recently...

Beauty justifies wealth

...

Mr Jobs's wealth, like that of other billionaire barons of the information age, was built in no small part upon an intellectual-property regime that I and many others believe to retard progress while concentrating massive rewards upon a privileged few, generating unfair and unproductive inequality. Now, I remember when Bill Gates used to get plenty of heat from the class warriors, but some time after the world's wealthiest nerd devoted a huge portion of his fortune to his charitable foundation, he ascended to a sort of philanthropic secular sainthood a few notches short of Warrenus Buffetus of Omaha, his partner in spectacular beneficence. Showy altruism has long served as a strategy for justifying huge accumulations of wealth in the envious eyes of the public, but Mr Jobs has eschewed charity. According to James Altucher:

[Mr Jobs] doesn't give any money to charity. And when he became Apple's CEO he stopped all of its philanthropic programs. He said, "wait until we are profitable". Now Apple is profitable, and sitting on $40 billion in cash, and still no corporate philanthropy. I actually think Jobs is probably the most charitable guy on the planet. Rather than focus on which mosquitoes to kill in Africa (Bill Gates is already focusing on that), Jobs has put his energy into massively improving quality of life with all of his inventions.

...

Saying that his products is a contribution equal to chairty or philanthropy is quite a stretch.

405 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:52:03pm

I do love the edit feature. Drunk commenting is so much easier.

406 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:52:09pm

Joan Baez "Diamonds and Rust"

Youtube Video
407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:52:26pm

re: #403 Killgore Trout

His hawkishness? Made me not hate him.

408 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:52:35pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

I do love the edit feature. Drunk commenting is so much easier.

Less fun for the audience though.

409 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:54:01pm

re: #401 darthstar

She's walking Winston in the nude?

I think this was one of the plot lines in "Co-Ed Babysitters #38" and it seemed to work out ok for them.

410 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:54:27pm

re: #397 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pericarditis is deadly stuff... It's nasty, mimics a lot of other stuff, and can kill you (maybe not always right away, but can give you lasting issues).

It's nothing to mess around with...

411 darthstar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:55:06pm

Honestly, I don't think it's fair for us to judge Hoops' maid until we know everything. To that end, I think Hoops should at least post a picture of her...behind a vacuum cleaner...in a wet t-shirt...with a Mariachi band behind her...wearing no pants...while Winston humps a Pug...

Just to get the big picture...you know.

412 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:55:08pm

You have slandered Scientology Apple!

//

413 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:55:27pm

re: #407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

His hawkishness? Made me not hate him.

Not so much his hawkishness but finding the straightest line from point A to B. Not everything needs to be out in the open, it's often better to speak softly and carry a big stick.

414 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:55:34pm

re: #412 Gus 802

You have slandered Scientology Apple!

//

Burn the heretics!

//

415 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:56:05pm

re: #411 darthstar

That's a little oddly specific.

416 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:56:21pm

re: #410 lawhawk

Pericarditis is deadly stuff... It's nasty, mimics a lot of other stuff, and can kill you (maybe not always right away, but can give you lasting issues).

It's nothing to mess around with...

It's good to know CPR.

Youtube Video
417 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:56:33pm

re: #411 darthstar

Honestly, I don't think it's fair for us to judge Hoops' maid until we know everything. To that end, I think Hoops should at least post a picture of her...behind a vacuum cleaner...in a wet t-shirt...with a Mariachi band behind her...wearing no pants...while Winston humps a Pug...

Just to get the big picture...you know.

Like my mariachis pantsed.

418 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:56:34pm

re: #225 recusancy

This is the same shit that republicans pull on race. Obama's really the racist. Obama's really the elitist. Obama's really trying to screw the middle class. Obama's really the big torturer.

Poor us! We are so put-upon by everyone because we aren't allowed to run roughshod over whoever we want anymore!!!!

And, now...our lives are MISERABLE!!!

You just don't understand!!!!

419 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:56:39pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

Fire her.

420 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:56:40pm

re: #403 Killgore Trout

You misunderstand me. I prefer Obama's methods but I'm going to make to pretense of claiming the moral high ground for doing so. He's a bad motherfucker, god bless him for it.

Reason #6,972 why you have such high credibility with, well, at least some of us, and why we love ya for it. You just say it out straight.

421 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:56:44pm

re: #404 Gus 802

More recently...

Beauty justifies wealth

Saying that his products is a contribution equal to chairty or philanthropy is quite a stretch.

Some people have this creepy kind of saint image for Jobs.

422 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:56:49pm

Thank you for all your advise Lizards...Now let's go to Stage two..
I not only like her as a person but she has a great son..She was raped when she was young and has a awesome son..He is very Athletic and 16 years old...6' 4" and is playing Football and Basketball and they don't have a pot to piss in..His is an awesome kid and it is a pleasure to go to Sooner Mall and buy him a pair of Tennis Shoes for school.. All my kids are back in California and Chris is like my new son in Norman...I like his attitude..He works hard and wants to be a NFL Tight end...He has got the tools...He tries to play play Basketball but really he has height and weight.. He lacks the skills..I shoot better than him.. He is going to be a football player...
So now what? I think I'll give him a few throwbacks..
I just can't fire his mom...

423 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:57:05pm

re: #410 lawhawk

Pericarditis is deadly stuff... It's nasty, mimics a lot of other stuff, and can kill you (maybe not always right away, but can give you lasting issues).

It's nothing to mess around with...

I think they said that word; but what I heard was, "not a heart attack; you'll be fine. It was only blah blah blah blah blah..."

424 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:57:08pm

re: #406 prairiefire

Joan Baez "Diamonds and Rust"

[Video]

Wait, isn't this the original?

Youtube Video


///yes, I do know better.

425 Gus  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:57:18pm

re: #414 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Burn the heretics!

//

Olllmmmm.

//

426 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:58:50pm

re: #424 wlewisiii

DING!!!! JP is in my top 3 concert acts seen.

427 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:58:51pm

re: #422 HoosierHoops

Thank you for all your advise Lizards...Now let's go to Stage two..
I not only like her as a person but she has a great son..She was raped when she was young and has a awesome son..He is very Athletic and 16 years old...6' 4" and is playing Football and Basketball and they don't have a pot to piss in..His is an awesome kid and it is a pleasure to go to Sooner Mall and buy him a pair of Tennis Shoes for school.. All my kids are back in California and Chris is like my new son in Norman...I like his attitude..He works hard and wants to be a NFL Tight end...He has got the tools...He tries to play play Basketball but really he has height and weight.. He lacks the skills..I shoot better than him.. He is going to be a football player...
So now what? I think I'll give him a few throwbacks..
I just can't fire his mom...

Hoops, you're a good guy.

If you just cannot fire her, you at LEAST need to let her know that you want the shirts back, and that you've noticed things missing. At least do that.

Then you can give her another chance at the job. But be very clear that if you find things missing again, she will be gone.

428 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:58:55pm

re: #421 JasonA

Some people have this creepy kind of saint image for Jobs.

Actually, it reminds me a lot of the Reagan-worship.

429 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:59:30pm

re: #422 HoosierHoops

Thank you for all your advise Lizards...Now let's go to Stage two..
I not only like her as a person but she has a great son..She was raped when she was young and has a awesome son..He is very Athletic and 16 years old...6' 4" and is playing Football and Basketball and they don't have a pot to piss in..His is an awesome kid and it is a pleasure to go to Sooner Mall and buy him a pair of Tennis Shoes for school.. All my kids are back in California and Chris is like my new son in Norman...I like his attitude..He works hard and wants to be a NFL Tight end...He has got the tools...He tries to play play Basketball but really he has height and weight.. He lacks the skills..I shoot better than him.. He is going to be a football player...
So now what? I think I'll give him a few throwbacks..
I just can't fire his mom...

So a person can break the law, steal from you and it's ok because she is a good mom?

How would that work with your employer?

430 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 6:59:48pm

re: #422 HoosierHoops

Thank you for all your advise Lizards...Now let's go to Stage two..
I not only like her as a person but she has a great son..She was raped when she was young and has a awesome son..He is very Athletic and 16 years old...6' 4" and is playing Football and Basketball and they don't have a pot to piss in..His is an awesome kid and it is a pleasure to go to Sooner Mall and buy him a pair of Tennis Shoes for school.. All my kids are back in California and Chris is like my new son in Norman...I like his attitude..He works hard and wants to be a NFL Tight end...He has got the tools...He tries to play play Basketball but really he has height and weight.. He lacks the skills..I shoot better than him.. He is going to be a football player...
So now what? I think I'll give him a few throwbacks..
I just can't fire his mom...

Then go face to face with her and clarify things. If you can boost her pay a bit it will blow her mind out of the 'occult compensation' mode.

(Are you certain none of the shirts made it into a 'discard' status?)

431 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:00:39pm

re: #420 reine.de.tout

Reason #6,972 why you have such high credibility with, well, at least some of us, and why we love ya for it. You just say it out straight.

I'm quite lovable when I drink but maybe that's just my beer goggles.

432 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:00:46pm

re: #429 ggt

So a person can break the law, steal from you and it's ok because she is a good mom?

How would that work with your employer?

Hoops is gonna steal a submarine? I CALL SHOTGUN!!!

433 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:01:00pm

re: #431 Killgore Trout

I'm quite lovable when I drink but maybe that's just my beer goggles.

Do I have these things on backwards?

434 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:01:09pm

re: #422 HoosierHoops

You're such a sweet little SUCKA!

435 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:01:14pm

re: #367 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I've been contemplating, on and off, how I want my funeral to go. Figure, to start things off, I'll burn a CD with songs I feel appropriate. Track one: Another One Bites the Dust.

I want them to play "Oh Happy Day":

Youtube Video
436 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:01:21pm

re: #420 reine.de.tout

Reason #6,972 why you have such high credibility with, well, at least some of us, and why we love ya for it. You just say it out straight.

Yep, every once in a while he makes me cringe, but at least you always know where he stands and he's consistent.

437 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:01:41pm

re: #436 CuriousLurker

Yep, every once in a while he makes me cringe, but at least you always know where he stands and he's consistent.

Exactly.

438 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:02:15pm

Where's B-sharp?
Did we scare him so badly he went to the ER?
Hope so. . .

439 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:02:55pm

re: #422 HoosierHoops

Yeah, what reine said. make sure those are your shirts, then at least sit down and have a talk with her.

440 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:03:06pm

I'm afraid if I watch any more CNN I might have the words "BREAKING NEWS" burned into my screen...

441 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:03:18pm

re: #438 reine.de.tout

Where's B-sharp?
Did we scare him so badly he went to the ER?
Hope so. . .

If not he'll change his nic to B-flatline.
///JUST WRONG!!

442 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:03:50pm

re: #440 JasonA

I'm afraid if I watch any more CNN I might have the words "BREAKING NEWS" burned into my screen...

That can actually happen with the ticker at the bottom.

443 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:04:18pm

re: #325 lostlakehiker

The claim at issue here was whether or not any Japanese was executed for waterboarding.

No, it's not. It's if waterboarding was among the war crimes they were charged with. It was.

Waterboarding is torture. We've always held it to be so. Nothing has changed.

444 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:05:29pm

re: #433 Killgore Trout

Do I have these things on backwards?

What, your geer boggles?

445 Four More Tears  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:05:32pm

re: #442 Cannadian Club Akbar

That can actually happen with the ticker at the bottom.

Yeah, but that's mostly just with plasmas. It's not much of a problem for LCDs.

446 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:06:13pm

re: #429 ggt

So a person can break the law, steal from you and it's ok because she is a good mom?

How would that work with your employer?

Nothing wrong with showing a little mercy & compassion sometimes. It's not as if she killed someone or mugged someone's grandma. It was wrong, she knows it, and she needs to know HE knows it, but there's nothing wrong with giving someone a second chance. Especially when there's a kid involved.

447 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:07:07pm

re: #440 JasonA

I'm afraid if I watch any more CNN I might have the words "BREAKING NEWS" burned into my screen...

I'm surprised we don't have the Weather Channel logo burned into our TV's screen, after last weekend. Oh well, guess we'll have a chance next week, not that Katia is on track to become a hurricane by mid-week.

448 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:07:42pm

re: #446 CuriousLurker

Nothing wrong with showing a little mercy & compassion sometimes. It's not as if she killed someone or mugged someone's grandma. It was wrong, she knows it, and she needs to know HE knows it, but there's nothing wrong with giving someone a second chance. Especially when there's a kid involved.

Exactly.
This is a different sort of employment relationship than other types of employment. And thus far, the damage is minimal. And we don't really know why she took the shirts. Hoops needs to find out before he decides what to do- and then he needs to get them back. And keep an eye on things.

449 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:08:43pm

I've got a moth infestation at my house. I was just thinking that my house is reminiscent of Jame Gumbs house. Without the dry well in the basement.

450 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:09:13pm

re: #429 ggt

So a person can break the law, steal from you and it's ok because she is a good mom?

How would that work with your employer?

I know ggt.. I have grown fond of them.. And I know I can't just let it slide.. And as reine has said just confront her...With kindness..

451 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:10:21pm

re: #450 HoosierHoops

I know ggt.. I have grown fond of them.. And I know I can't just let it slide.. And as reine has said just confront her...With kindness..

But if she gets your silver candlesticks, pursue her through the sewers of Paris.

452 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:10:32pm

re: #450 HoosierHoops


Maybe she's just trying to get closer to you. Do you have any rabbits?

453 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:11:28pm

re: #446 CuriousLurker

Nothing wrong with showing a little mercy & compassion sometimes. It's not as if she killed someone or mugged someone's grandma. It was wrong, she knows it, and she needs to know HE knows it, but there's nothing wrong with giving someone a second chance. Especially when there's a kid involved.

The one big thing with cleaning ladies/maids is stealing. The kid is not Hoops kid.

To do something so obvious as to wear his shirt in front of him is playing him for a fool.

Basically she is getting financial support, a big brother for her kid and free run of his house --without having to spread her legs.

If he is ok with it, so be it.

454 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:12:20pm

re: #448 reine.de.tout

Hiring someone to work at your home? You need to be able to trust the shit out of them.

There is an incredible breech of trust that has gone on here. Trust is dead. She needs to be a former housekeeper.

455 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:12:56pm

re: #453 ggt

Well! Tell us how you really feel, quit beating around the bush!

456 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:13:32pm

re: #454 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hiring someone to work at your home? You need to be able to trust the shit out of them.

There is an incredible breech of trust that has gone on here. Trust is dead. She needs to be a former housekeeper.

She'll fit in the freezer if you cut her up just right.
/

457 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:14:05pm

re: #439 CuriousLurker

Yeah, what reine said. make sure those are your shirts, then at least sit down and have a talk with her.

Thanks..We were caught in a time warp today at noon...She just didn't expect it that if she wanted money..It was now..
I not only know my Raiders Jersey I've had for 25 years.. I was wearing it when Nikki was born.. Nobody in the State of Oklahoma has this Jersey...
Now I have to confront her...I really really hate this....
It's crazy really

458 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:14:16pm

re: #339 b_sharp

I just took my grandkid home, and on the way back I phoned the clinic my doc works at to make an appointment for tomorrow. They weren't able to make the appointment but told me to phone at 8:00am and I'll be able to get in right away.

459 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:14:21pm

re: #454 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hiring someone to work at your home? You need to be able to trust the shit out of them.

There is an incredible breech of trust that has gone on here. Trust is dead. She needs to be a former housekeeper.

We don't know why she has the shirts. MAYBE there is a reasonable explanation - but at the very least, she SHOULD have asked first, or left a note or let him know, and then returned them pronto.

Otherwise, I agree with you. She would be my former housekeeper, absent a really good explanation. But - Hoops is Hoops.

460 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:14:33pm

re: #453 ggt

The one big thing with cleaning ladies/maids is stealing. The kid is not Hoops kid.

To do something so obvious as to wear his shirt in front of him is playing him for a fool.

Basically she is getting financial support, a big brother for her kid and free run of his house --without having to spread her legs.

If he is ok with it, so be it.

That's pretty harsh and you have no way of knowing what her motivations are. She could be wearing the shirt in front of him becuase she took it thinking it was destined to be thrown out or something. Judge not lest ye be judged.

461 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:15:11pm

re: #458 b_sharp

I just took my grandkid home, and on the way back I phoned the clinic my doc works at to make an appointment for tomorrow. They weren't able to make the appointment but told me to phone at 8:00am and I'll be able to get in right away.

GOOD!
Keep us posted, eh?

462 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:15:56pm

This thing has taken a pretty horrible turn.

463 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:16:05pm

re: #460 CuriousLurker

That's pretty harsh and you have no way of knowing what her motivations are. She could be wearing the shirt in front of him becuase she took it thinking it was destined to be thrown out or something. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Clarify first, then act. She sounds salvageable.

464 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:16:35pm

re: #451 Decatur Deb

But if she gets your silver candlesticks, pursue her through the sewers of Paris.

Was the a Les Miserables joke; a Phantom of the Opera joke; or neither?

Funny as hell! I'm trying to catch the context.

465 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:16:45pm

re: #457 HoosierHoops

Thanks..We were caught in a time warp today at noon...She just didn't expect it that if she wanted money..It was now..
I not only know my Raiders Jersey I've had for 25 years.. I was wearing it when Nikki was born.. Nobody in the State of Oklahoma has this Jersey...
Now I have to confront her...I really really hate this...
It's crazy really

Don't think of it as a confrontation.
Think of it as a discussion about your missing shirts, one of which you realized she was wearing.

466 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:16:47pm

re: #460 CuriousLurker

That's pretty harsh and you have no way of knowing what her motivations are. She could be wearing the shirt in front of him becuase she took it thinking it was destined to be thrown out or something. Judge not lest ye be judged.

She was wearing a shirt that did not belong to her.

Motivation isn't the issue.

I hope she doesn't decide to take Winston next.

467 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:17:16pm

re: #463 Decatur Deb

Clarify first, then act. She sounds salvageable.

Exactly.

468 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:17:24pm

re: #464 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was the a Les Miserables joke; a Phantom of the Opera joke; or neither?

Funny as hell! I'm trying to catch the context.

Game of Clue, perhaps?

469 Decatur Deb  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:19:33pm

re: #464 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was the a Les Miserables joke; a Phantom of the Opera joke; or neither?

Funny as hell! I'm trying to catch the context.

Thinkin' Lez Miz, kinda fits.

470 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:19:35pm

re: #458 b_sharp

Good. By the way... chest pains are ALWAYS considered Emergency for insurance purposes if you want to go to the ER.

I'm just sayin', ya cheap bastid.

471 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:20:15pm

re: #463 Decatur Deb

Clarify first, then act. She sounds salvageable.

Fire her. Hire the son.

472 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:22:06pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

So I've been here for a long time..Close to 30000 posts..I talk too much..
Have I ever asked for your opinion? once?
So check this out..A moral dilemma..
Today the maid came by to get paid..But because of our Schedule..Winston and I had lunch down on the banks of Thunderbird Lake..She had to swing by at an unexpected time today..
She was wearing a 25 year old Throw back Raiders Jersey of mine.. I was stunned..I couldn't say anything.. A few weeks ago I wanted to post that my life has became a Seinfeld episode.. It always seemed the maid was stealing little stuff..I really like her...I know she really needs the money but the Raiders jersey might have been a bridge too far...
So...How do I talk to her? I don't want to hurt her feelings and she is an awesome maid...She keeps this place sharp and neat..
But she stole my Raiders Jersey and I haven't found my Gonzales Colts Jersey..
I have a hundred Sports Jerseys...You see where I'm going with this?
Will I end a relationship with her over this? How many Jerseys have I been given? Dozens at least...But that bitch took my Raiders Jersey!
She did look good..But that's besides the point! LOL
So? What do you think? ( 5 words I may never post again)

She stole from you. Confront her, tell her the cops could be called if your stuff isn't returned, and fire her.

473 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:23:33pm

re: #466 ggt

She was wearing a shirt that did not belong to her.

Motivation isn't the issue.

I hope she doesn't decide to take Winston next.

Yes, she was wearing a shirt that didn't belong to her, and she may have taken other small things as HH suspects, but the other whorish shit you ascribed to her was fucked up. You have have no way of knowing any of that.

Lucky for her, HH has a big heart. I find that commendable not being "played a fool. He's not stupid, he's just kind.

474 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:24:38pm

re: #473 CuriousLurker

Yes, she was wearing a shirt that didn't belong to her, and she may have taken other small things as HH suspects, but the other whorish shit you ascribed to her was fucked up. You have have no way of know any of that.

Lucky for her, HH has a big heart. I find that commendable not being "played a fool. He's not stupid, he's just kind.

you are naive.

475 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:25:39pm

re: #474 ggt

you are naive.

And you are cynical. Now that we've got that straightened out, I'm going upstairs.

476 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:28:39pm

re: #422 HoosierHoops

Thank you for all your advise Lizards...Now let's go to Stage two..
I not only like her as a person but she has a great son..She was raped when she was young and has a awesome son..He is very Athletic and 16 years old...6' 4" and is playing Football and Basketball and they don't have a pot to piss in..His is an awesome kid and it is a pleasure to go to Sooner Mall and buy him a pair of Tennis Shoes for school.. All my kids are back in California and Chris is like my new son in Norman...I like his attitude..He works hard and wants to be a NFL Tight end...He has got the tools...He tries to play play Basketball but really he has height and weight.. He lacks the skills..I shoot better than him.. He is going to be a football player...
So now what? I think I'll give him a few throwbacks..
I just can't fire his mom...

In any case, TALK TO HER.

477 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:30:40pm

re: #441 Cannadian Club Akbar

If not he'll change his nic to B-flatline.
///JUST WRONG!!

But funny.

478 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:31:36pm

re: #449 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've got a moth infestation at my house. I was just thinking that my house is reminiscent of Jame Gumbs house. Without the dry well in the basement.

Cats love moths.
Get some cats.

479 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:32:24pm

Thanks Lizards! Do you see why I have never asked advise here before? Now I'm really confused! LOL
Really I appreciate the balanced comments...There are some trust issues right now..I have to face them..But I like her and there are many times she has gone and got things I needed here without a list..She suggests restaurants to take dates too.. She knows Norman.. I guess
I'm kind of disappointed in all of this..

480 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:32:43pm

re: #478 b_sharp

Cats love moths.
Get some cats.

Disclaimer: Results may vary.

/

481 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:34:50pm

re: #470 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Good. By the way... chest pains are ALWAYS considered Emergency for insurance purposes if you want to go to the ER.

I'm just sayin', ya cheap bastid.

No chest pains, just real trouble catching my breath, dizziness and nausea.

482 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:35:50pm

re: #481 b_sharp

No chest pains, just real trouble catching my breath, dizziness and nausea.

SAME DIFFERENCE.

483 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:36:39pm

re: #481 b_sharp

No chest pains, just real trouble catching my breath, dizziness and nausea.

Any coughing?

484 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:37:00pm

re: #482 ggt

SAME DIFFERENCE.

I'm going, I'm going.

485 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:37:47pm

re: #479 HoosierHoops

Thanks Lizards! Do you see why I have never asked advise here before? Now I'm really confused! LOL
Really I appreciate the balanced comments...There are some trust issues right now..I have to face them..But I like her and there are many times she has gone and got things I needed here without a list..She suggests restaurants to take dates too.. She knows Norman.. I guess
I'm kind of disappointed in all of this..

Just listen your heart, Hoops. We (Muslims) believe that God (figuratively) holds our heart between two fingers and turns it one way or the other, for or against things. So just make sure it's your heart you're listening to (not your ego), and then follow it.

486 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:37:47pm

re: #479 HoosierHoops

Thanks Lizards! Do you see why I have never asked advise here before? Now I'm really confused! LOL
Really I appreciate the balanced comments...There are some trust issues right now..I have to face them..But I like her and there are many times she has gone and got things I needed here without a list..She suggests restaurants to take dates too.. She knows Norman.. I guess
I'm kind of disappointed in all of this..

Hoops - be yourself.
Have a discussion (not a confrontation) about the shirts.
Nicely but firmly let her know you expect them to be returned.
And if you cannot fire her, let her know you'll be keeping an eye on things.
And also that if she needs something, she should ask first.

487 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:37:47pm

re: #483 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Any coughing?

A little, but that is probably from too much phlegm.

488 RogueOne  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:38:37pm

re: #481 b_sharp

No chest pains, just real trouble catching my breath, dizziness and nausea.

We should take advantage of your chest pains and start a betting pool. I'll take you're allergic to cats and you're going to drop in approx. 34 years 8 months.

489 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:39:05pm

re: #486 reine.de.tout

Hoops - be yourself.
Have a discussion (not a confrontation) about the shirts.
Nicely but firmly let her know you expect them to be returned.
And if you cannot fire her, let her know you'll be keeping an eye on things.
And also that if she needs something, she should ask first.

Hoops, if you don't want to fire her, send her to me, I can fire her for you.

490 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:40:14pm

re: #485 CuriousLurker

Just listen your heart, Hoops. We (Muslims) believe that God (figuratively) holds our heart between two fingers and turns it one way or the other, for or against things. So just make sure it's your heart you're listening to (not your ego), and then follow it.

Similar to the Catholic concept of conscience, that is!

491 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:41:12pm

re: #487 b_sharp

A little, but that is probably from too much phlegm.

Hmm, I wouldn't rule out pulmonary embolism, but the blood tests and scans they're likely to do would check for both anyway. If your body's throwing out clots, it should show up in the blood work.

492 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:42:06pm

re: #490 reine.de.tout

Similar to the Catholic concept of conscience, that is!

Yes indeedy. There are probably more similarities than differences. {reine}

493 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:43:55pm

re: #489 b_sharp

Hoops, if you don't want to fire her, send her to me, I can fire her for you.

Sure..She walks in with nothing on but my Raiders Jersey then all of a sudden you are penciling her in on your Outlook Calendar and I lose my maid...I know your wicked mind..
/

494 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:45:12pm

re: #493 HoosierHoops

Sure..She walks in with nothing on but my Raiders Jersey then all of a sudden you are penciling her in on your Outlook Calendar and I lose my maid...I know your wicked mind..
/

You are far too perceptive for my own good.

495 CuriousLurker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:46:28pm

Okay, I'm outta here. The phones are gonna start ringing again early in the morning. Later, Lizards.

496 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:47:39pm

re: #495 CuriousLurker

Okay, I'm outta here. The phones are gonna start ringing again early in the morning. Later, Lizards.

g'night {{CL}}

497 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:48:20pm

re: #481 b_sharp

No chest pains, just real trouble catching my breath, dizziness and nausea.

Know what that sounds like?

"Here. Hold my beer."

498 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:50:17pm

re: #394 Killgore Trout

That was the part about being tuned up in Poland which I mentioned. This is also part of the reason why Obama has no interest in giving Bin Laden a trial in open court. The evidence that lead to his capture execution was not all gathered from kosher methods. Better to just shoot him on sight, lawyers are so troublesome.

I doubt it matters how a man was taken into custody. Has a court ever thrown out an arrest? Not talking evidence gathered at the arrest. Just---the cops arrest this guy on general principles and omit to read him his rights, but then they run his prints down at the station and lo and behold, he's wanted in ten states for this, that, and the other? So let him go?

Lawyers? What are the rules here?

499 austin_blue  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:52:32pm

re: #353 lostlakehiker

Exactly. Lesser offense, lesser sentence. Serious business, serious sentence. But not a hanging offense.

Imagine putting Cheney in prison for 25 years...

500 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:54:23pm

re: #422 HoosierHoops

Thank you for all your advise Lizards...Now let's go to Stage two..
I not only like her as a person but she has a great son..She was raped when she was young and has a awesome son..He is very Athletic and 16 years old...6' 4" and is playing Football and Basketball and they don't have a pot to piss in..His is an awesome kid and it is a pleasure to go to Sooner Mall and buy him a pair of Tennis Shoes for school.. All my kids are back in California and Chris is like my new son in Norman...I like his attitude..He works hard and wants to be a NFL Tight end...He has got the tools...He tries to play play Basketball but really he has height and weight.. He lacks the skills..I shoot better than him.. He is going to be a football player...
So now what? I think I'll give him a few throwbacks..
I just can't fire his mom...

Well, that does put a different twist on things. I suggest plan B: give her the rest of your jerseys and tell her she can wear them or sell them.

Page out of Les Miserables.

It lets her know you're on to her, it expresses forgiveness, and implicitly it asks her to be content with what she's already taken.

501 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 7:59:52pm

re: #500 lostlakehiker

"Give her the rest of your jerseys"?

That's a little too New Testament even for me!

502 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 8:01:44pm

re: #495 CuriousLurker

Okay, I'm outta here. The phones are gonna start ringing again early in the morning. Later, Lizards.

Later CL, thanks for the advice.

503 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 8:17:16pm

re: #487 b_sharp

A little, but that is probably from too much phlegm.

Maybe asthma, then.

504 b_sharp  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 8:20:26pm

re: #503 prairiefire

Maybe asthma, then.

Do people develop asthma after 50?

505 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 8:45:12pm

re: #504 b_sharp

Do people develop asthma after 50?

Yes, I think so. I developed it at 47. Do you have seasonal allergies? These can worsen over time as well as your body starts to lose the good fight. They can check how well your lung capacity is with a simple "peak flow meter" device.

506 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Aug 30, 2011 10:25:23pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Do you really want to set the precedent of trials and executions of previous administration?

If justice demands it, why wouldn't you? Is sovereign immunity more important? Even in Postwar Germany after the Allied occupation there were some trials against former officials. Thank the Lord for those if but too few.

507 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 4:05:52am

KT: "Let's leave this shit to 3rd world shitholes with corrupt and unstable societies. No need to import the practice here."

The problem is, US behaves in this case exactly like a third world shithole. A civilized country would try people responsible for torture. It's the corrupt third world shitholes that excuse torture, wrap themselves in flag and patriotism and don't prosecute the all-important poobahs exactly because they're all-important poobahs. Fail.

508 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 4:07:35am

re: #91 Charles

Well, just to be clear about one thing, I'm not in favor of war crimes prosecutions for former top officials. I think that's a very dangerous precedent to set, and the case would have to be VERY compelling to get me to support it.

Like, torture?

509 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 4:27:10am

Torturers - especially the torturers in the employ of the state - are always on the level of the Stalin's USSR, if not Nazi Germany. No matter the excuse or motivation. Re-read Stalin's torture order, find 10 differences, try to assure yourself there's no slippery slope "because we are torturing only the bad guys" (as if). It is no coincidence that today's Stalinists in Russia always point to the US use of torture as a justification of Stalin - if the democratic US does it, then Stalin was certainly within his rights. Torturers deserve the same fate as Stalin's henchmen.


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