Dr. Tiller Shot to Death at Wichita Church

US News • Views: 8,710

Dr. George Tiller, the controversial abortion clinic doctor who specialized in providing late-term abortions, was murdered as he walked into church this morning.

WICHITA, Kan. — Dr. George Tiller, a Kansas man who became one of the most famous figures in the national debate over abortion, was shot and killed at his church Sunday morning, KAKE-TV reported.

The station said Tiller was walking into Reformation Lutheran Church at 10:03 a.m., when he was shot.

Tiller was pronounced dead when emergency crews arrived, the station reported.

Police were looking for a blue Ford Taurus with a K-State vanity plate, license number 225 BAB. Police described him as a white male in his 50s or 60s, 6 feet 1 inch tall, 220 pounds, wearing a white shirt and dark pants.

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588 comments
1 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:26:04am

Yeesh.

2 doubter4444  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:26:41am

Terrorism.

3 Chip Designer  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:27:07am

Right wing terrorism?

4 sonofsheldon  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:27:39am

So is this when we begin reverting to the law of the jungle?

5 Occasional Reader  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:28:13am

Um... if they have the plate number, can't they give us a name?!

6 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:28:29am

re: #3 Chip Designer

Right wing terrorism?

No rational person on the right is ok with shit like this.

7 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:28:46am

Christian Defense Coalition Condemns Shooting of Dr. George Tiller

Christian and pro-life leaders will hold a news conference in front of the US Supreme Court on Monday, June 1, at 10:00 A.M. to discuss the impact the shooting of Dr. George Tiller will have on the pro-life movement and the Supreme Court.

Rev. Patrick J. Mahoney, Director of the Washington, DC based Christian Defense Coalition is presently available for comment at xxxxxxxxxx

Rev. Patrick Mahoney, national pro-life leader, former national spokesperson for Operation Rescue, had just completed leading two weeks of prayer vigils in Wichita during the trial of Dr. Tiller.

Rev. Patrick Mahoney condemns the shooting of Dr. George Tiller.

8 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:29:23am

Why did the perp run, isn't he proud of himself?

9 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:29:23am

re: #5 Occasional Reader

Might be a stolen car.

10 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:29:28am

He's facing judgement now and not liking it .....as will his murderer some day.

11 General Nimrod Bodfish  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:29:29am

As much as I hate his practices, this is no way to show your displeasure. I hope they find his murder and prosecute him/her to the full extent of the law. There is absolutely NO excuse for this.

RIP Tiller, and thoughts and prayers goes to his family and friends.

12 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:29:54am

If the perpertartor is portrayed as a hero and/ or martyr in ANY way, shape or form, I hereby resign from humanity!

13 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:30:14am

This guy has been absolutely demonized by the SoCon R's in Kansas for five years, I fully expect someone to show up and tell us how terrible he was.

He's been used as an example by several populist pols, Klein and Brownback among them.

14 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:30:21am

re: #3 Chip Designer

Probably. Most likely a Christian too.
/Get ready for the "no true Scotssman defense"

15 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:30:23am

Commenters at Gateway Pundit are applauding the murder.

16 MandyManners  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:30:24am

re: #5 Occasional Reader

Um... if they have the plate number, can't they give us a name?!


Could be a stolen plate.

17 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:30:38am

Sean Hannity gives people like Randall Terry a platform to encourage the crazies to act out, and they do.

18 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:30:47am

re: #12 sattv4u2

If the perpertartor is portrayed as a hero and/ or martyr in ANY way, shape or form, I hereby resign from humanity!

Let's hope we don't get a NO TRUE SCOTSMAN defense

19 Occasional Reader  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:30:54am

re: #8 itellu3times

Why did the perp run, isn't he proud of himself?

True; not much of a holy warrior, is he?

/of course, there's the off chance that this was just a personal beef, attempted robbery, etc.

20 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:31:02am

I am simply with out words.

21 CantonJim  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:31:26am

I do not mourn his passing. I am not however, on board with the means.

22 nofixedabode  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:31:32am

This is no the act of a Christian.

23 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:31:41am

re: #15 Charles

Commenters at Gateway Pundit are applauding the murder.

oy ,, regarding my #12 I better start filling out my resignations forms !

24 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:31:48am
25 J.D.  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:31:55am

How can you claim to be pro-life and at the same time kill someone?

Rhetorical question...

26 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:32:00am

re: #16 MandyManners

Could be a stolen plate.

And or car.

27 Occasional Reader  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:32:12am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Probably. Most likely a Christian too.
/Get ready for the "no true Scotssman defense"

You've already taken the "broad brush" offense, of course.

28 solomonpanting  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:32:17am

He was shot in 1993 in both arms.

29 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:32:30am

re: #15 Charles

Commenters at Gateway Pundit are applauding the murder.

Disgusting.

30 Occasional Reader  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:32:41am

re: #15 Charles

Commenters at Gateway Pundit are applauding the murder.

Bleh.

That's all I have to say about them.

31 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:32:52am

re: #17 jaunte

Sean Hannity gives people like Randall Terry a platform to encourage the crazies to act out, and they do.

Terry and his group started in Wichita, one of the reasons this guy was demonized.

32 Occasional Reader  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:33:14am

re: #24 GOBAN

Buh-bye. You take care now.

33 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:33:18am

*sigh*

people have short memories....this sort of nonsense from the Anti-Abortion crowd has been going on a long time. Does no one remmeber the violence of the 80's and 90's against Abortion clinics?

34 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:33:20am

re: #17 jaunte

Sean Hannity gives people like Randall Terry a platform to encourage the crazies to act out, and they do.

Hannity encouraged murder?

35 General Nimrod Bodfish  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:33:22am

re: #15 Charles

Disgusting.

36 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:34:12am

re: #7 Killgore Trout

More on Operation Rescue....
Operation Rescue

Operation Rescue (formerly Operation Rescue West) is a pro-life group formerly based in California, and now based in Wichita, Kansas. Operation Rescue was founded by Randall Terry in the 1980s.[1] The slogan of Operation Rescue was "If you believe abortion is murder, act like it's murder."[

37 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:34:21am

re: #24 GOBAN

If that was sarcasm, you should have made it perfectly clear.

38 Occasional Reader  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:34:31am

re: #33 Jewels (AKA Julian)

*sigh*

people have short memories....this sort of nonsense from the Anti-Abortion crowd has been going on a long time. Does no one remmeber the violence of the 80's and 90's against Abortion clinics?

Um... who here is demonstrating a "short memory"? I'm trying to find a post to the effect of "nothing like this has ever happened before!", and I can't.

39 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:34:41am

They're also cheering the murder at Free Republic.

40 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:35:20am

re: #27 Occasional Reader

No just a common sense guess at the religious motivations of the perpetrator.

41 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:35:25am

re: #5 Occasional Reader

Um... if they have the plate number, can't they give us a name?!

A plate number doesn't tell you who's driving, right? They probably don't want to make a mistake. (Unless I'm missing something.)

42 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:35:26am

So where will people go for infanticide now?

China?

43 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:35:36am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Probably. Most likely a Christian too.
/Get ready for the "no true Scotssman defense"


May I ask a favor for you to consider? With something of this nature, could you please put the term "christian' in quotes as I did. I agree that the perp most likely calls himsoelf one, but NO Christian that I have ever known in my 55 years would consider nor condone such an act (and as backup please see your own #7)

Thanks in advance

44 NY Nana  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:36:20am

re: #15 Charles

Commenters at Gateway Pundit are applauding the murder.

That is despicable.

45 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:36:27am

re: #38 Occasional Reader

sorry....the whole thing is just sickening and I'm moody at the moment, The poor doctor

46 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:36:38am

re: #43 sattv4u2

No true Scotsman

47 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:37:10am

re: #46 Thanos

No true Scotsman human being

48 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:37:31am

re: #43 sattv4u2

No.

49 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:37:40am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Probably. Most likely a Christian too.
/Get ready for the "no true Scotssman defense"

Feh.

50 Dave the.....  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:37:43am

re: #15 Charles

Commenters at Gateway Pundit are applauding the murder.

A) Pro-life people don't kill or applaud those that kill.
B) A guy like Tiller is a good recruitment tool for the Pro-life crowd ("Look at this guy in Kansas and what he is going..."). But now....
C) The pro-choice crowd has a martyr and will say "Oh yeah, how about all the so-called pro-life people killing doctors. Guess they really arn't pro-life afterall".

51 Occasional Reader  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:38:07am

re: #39 Charles

They're also cheering the murder at Free Republic.

Out of morbid curiosity, I had to look.

Besides the expected "he had it coming" stuff, did you see this?

He had the goods on Kathleen Sebelius, and that means she was blackmailable. I wonder if they will catch the killer on this one?!

Vince Foster, part deux!

KEEP WATCHING THE SKIES... FOR BLACK HELICOPTERS!

52 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:38:39am

re: #34 rightymouse

Hannity gave Randall Terry a soapbox.

53 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:38:44am

Un - frikkin' - believable to me that there is anyone out there who thinks of me as an ally who could condone cold-blooded, calculating murder. At a church, no less.

Whoever did this has gotta face justice; Kansas has the death penalty, I hope.

54 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:38:51am

re: #47 sattv4u2

Sorry, it was a human who pulled the trigger.

55 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:39:12am

re: #48 Killgore Trout

No.

Thanks. Fair as always I see.

56 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:39:26am

Moral relativists should be OK with this.
/

57 MandyManners  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:39:42am

Thou shalt not kill.

58 NY Nana  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:39:51am

re: #26 DEZes

My news station just said that the car had a vanity plate...

59 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:39:55am

re: #54 Thanos

Sorry, it was a sub-human who pulled the trigger.

sorry ,,,, but anyone that kills in cold blood does NOT deserve the title

60 solomonpanting  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:40:07am

Tiller was the subject on a Bill O'Reilly show in 2007, where the host made this comment:

Let's be more blunt. Tiller is executing fetuses in his Wichita clinic for $5,000. And records show he'll do it for vague medical reasons. That is, he'll kill the fetus, viable outside the womb, if the mother wants it dead. No danger to the mother's life, no catastrophic damage if the woman delivers.

Whatever one's position, that characterization could be a spark for someone on the verge of action.

61 jones  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:40:10am

re: #51 Occasional Reader

Vince Foster, part deux!

KEEP WATCHING THE SKIES... FOR BLACK HELICOPTERS!

These nuts are the same left and right. It goes beyone ideaology to just plain evil and/or crazy.

May the man rest in peace.

62 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:40:37am

re: #58 NY Nana

My news station just said that the car had a vanity plate...

Did they say what type?

63 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:41:10am

re: #55 sattv4u2

Thanks. Fair as always I see.

The Christian killer probably went to one of the tea parties.
/killgore logic

64 Slymon  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:41:13am

This is a disgusting, vile act. I hope they catch him and give him the death penalty ASAP. And any equivocation about this cold blooded murder is inexcusable.

65 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:41:22am

re: #59 sattv4u2

Maybe not, but that doesn't make them non human. We all have capability for good and evil, evil wins when humans let insane passions run too wild.

66 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:41:42am

re: #51 Occasional Reader

and Chris Carter will make a lame movie about your disappearance by the MIBS years later

67 solomonpanting  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:42:14am

re: #57 MandyManners

Thou shalt not kill murder.

68 jones  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:42:29am

There is no justification to try to score points with a man's life. I am sick from the killing and the use of same said killing to score points.

This is a time to step back and reflect.

69 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:42:39am

The Free Republic thread on this is vile. I can't believe those people exist in this country.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

70 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:42:39am

A talmudic question, and one relevant to this case, and to others:

Why is the commandment against murder extended even to hatred? -

Because Man was created in the image of the Almighty, his life is precious, and not to be taken. Why can we not despise a man? Because Man was created in the image of the Almighty; when you despise a man, know Whose image you also despise.

Murder and hatred of a man are both denials of the majesty and honor of the Lord.

71 Wild Knight  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:42:49am

Crap. This is totally deplorable. If the anti-abortionist did this, it's really going to screw up their cause and is terrorism, pure and simple. However, it might have been a personal issue/non-related crime. Whatever it was, I condemn the murder unreservedly. Still, before pegging it up on anti-abortionists, I suggest observing the 24 hour rule. Then, if it's someone from that crowd, excoriate them with full opprobrium.

72 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:43:21am

re: #52 jaunte

Hannity gave Randall Terry a soapbox.

Nobody 'makes' anyone kill. Sorry. There's something wrong in the head to begin with.

73 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:43:35am

re: #63 VegasRick

The Christian killer probably went to one of the tea parties.
/killgore logic

Recruited by a Paulian to act!

/////////

74 NY Nana  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:43:41am

re: #62 DEZes

Did they say what type?

No. If there is more info I will post it.

I find it ironic, at the least, that those who oppose abortion would willingly murder in cold blood an adult.

75 keebler71  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:43:55am

re: #15 Charles

Commenters at Gateway Pundit are applauding the murder.

Huh - I just went there (for the first time) to see the comments you are referring to and saw nothing of the sort (as of the most recent post at 12:44 eastern.) There are about 12-15 posts and they are nearly identical in tone to the ones posted here. Not a single one "applauded" the murder. There were a couple posts regarding not having sympathy for the victim but that is not the same thing as "applauding the murder". Of course, the host could have deleted the offending posts...

76 kansas  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:44:02am

No True Scotsman Errors in usage

In situations where the subject's status is previously determined by specific behaviors, the fallacy does not apply. For example, it is perfectly justified to say, "No true vegetarian eats meat," because not eating meat is the single thing that precisely defines a person as a vegetarian.

Therefore because the definition of Christian involves specific behaviors, i.e., following the teachings of Christ, no true Christian murders anyone and the fallacy is being misused by people who have no true understanding of it.

77 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:44:38am

There are two Free Republic threads -- this one is even worse:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

78 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:44:40am
79 researchok  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:44:45am

I thought all life had value- even if at times that value is obscured.

80 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:44:48am

Tiller bio at wikipedia

On August 19, 1993, he was shot in both arms outside of the Wichita clinic by Shelley Shannon, who received an 11-year prison sentence for the crime.


Shannon is back in prison for the arson of several abortion clinics in Oregon in 1995. She is associated with the Army of God, which "has been mentioned among terrorist groups by the FBI."

81 Occasional Reader  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:45:04am

re: #69 Charles

The Free Republic thread on this is vile. I can't believe those people exist in this country.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

And even most of the ones that start out somewhat sane, immediately veer over to crazy. E.g.:

Murder is wrong, period, regardless of who commits it. Rahm Emmanuel, Obama, et. al. will all use this as an example of how “hypocritical” “Christians” are, as well as to further alienate religion. Say goodbye to all portions of the First Amendment.

82 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:46:07am

re: #79 researchok

Oy.....

83 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:46:09am

re: #34 rightymouse

Hannity encouraged murder?

This is why I mention Hannity. He allowed Randall Terry on his show to speak without any balanced opposition during the recent story about Obama speaking at Notre Dame. In the past, Terry has stated "If you believe abortion is murder, you have to act like it's murder." This is a direct result of that kind of 'activism.'

84 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:46:10am

re: #69 Charles

The Free Republic thread on this is vile. I can't believe those people exist in this country.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

I expected that kind of stuff over at Freep.

85 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:46:11am
86 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:46:28am

re: #75 keebler71

Huh - I just went there (for the first time) to see the comments you are referring to and saw nothing of the sort (as of the most recent post at 12:44 eastern.) There are about 12-15 posts and they are nearly identical in tone to the ones posted here. Not a single one "applauded" the murder. There were a couple posts regarding not having sympathy for the victim but that is not the same thing as "applauding the murder". Of course, the host could have deleted the offending posts...

Oh, BS.

PAYBACK IS A BITCH.
Sharp Elbows %P% Homepage %P% 05.31.09 - 12:36 pm %P% #

Vigilantes, unite! It IS difficult to work up too much sympathy for a man such as this. I won't bother, especially when I consider all of the innocent lives he ripped from the womb. God will judge this man.
Lee %P% 05.31.09 - 12:39 pm %P% #

Karma is a bitch!

The first thing that came to my mind was what would happen if the perp was a Black Panther...
Denney Crane %P% Homepage %P% 05.31.09 - 12:44 pm %P% #

The DHS will say see Right Wing Extremist caused this killing. The libs will have their collective panties in a knot. The MSM will be all over this like flies to shit. I have no sympathy, this is just a late term abortion, very late term.
Jayne %P% 05.31.09 - 12:45 pm %P% #

87 Occasional Reader  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:46:46am

re: #81 Occasional Reader

Some exceptions, though...

It’s a bad end for a bad man; and it’s a bad thing. Immoral is immoral, murder is murder, a wrong doesn’t cancel a wrong.

88 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:47:24am

Free Republic occasionally has good stuff....but then other times...we get lunacy. As with anything else, Let's the Reader Beware

89 Arizona Angler  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:47:49am

Just what Pro-life needs...support from a murderer. I don't like what Tiller was doing; as an MD myself, I don't understand his position, but violence against him was abhorrent and will be counter-productive.

90 Bobblehead  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:47:55am

re: #77 Charles

There are two Free Republic threads -- this one is even worse:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

I need to disinfect my hard drive. Ugh.

91 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:48:05am

I wish the folk veering over into black helicopter, impending-restrictions-on-first- amendment territory, and coming-repression-of-conservatives would at least wait for the man to be buried before going back to riding their hobbyhorses. The man's been murdered; leave him alone, his death should not serve any cause, pro or con.

92 Macker  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:48:06am

I hope the Cops catch this person who did this, and prosecute him to the fullest extent the law allows. Is Kansas a Death Penalty state? If it is, don't take that option off the table.
If the guy gets caught and chooses the Suicide by Cop option, then I guess that'll spare us all the time, trouble, and money for a trial, and he'll end up in Hell anyway!

93 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:48:42am

re: #85 Nim Chimpsky

there are laws.

personally, I would have liked to see Tiller lose his medical license and go to jail for what he did ( and I am pro choice) but the law of the land disagrees.

murder is wrong either way . BUT what tiller did was legal. what his killer did was not

94 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:49:13am

re: #85 Nim Chimpsky

Do you object to his death or to the means of his death? BOTH

I object to his advocation. I do NOT advocate his death by any means, including natural causes

95 Wild Knight  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:49:16am

re: #76 kansas

No True Scotsman Errors in usage

In situations where the subject's status is previously determined by specific behaviors, the fallacy does not apply. For example, it is perfectly justified to say, "No true vegetarian eats meat," because not eating meat is the single thing that precisely defines a person as a vegetarian.

Therefore because the definition of Christian involves specific behaviors, i.e., following the teachings of Christ, no true Christian murders anyone and the fallacy is being misused by people who have no true understanding of it.

About Christianity, it's not as simple as that. Generally, the historical definition of Christianity is someone who believes and confesses the items on the Nicaean Creed or their equivalent (keeping in mind that in the Nicaean Creed, Catholic is simply Crasis for καθόλος = universal and therefore not a reference to ROMAN Catholic). This means that YOU can be a Christian and commit "unchristian" acts (defined as sin by Christians). But then, orthodox Christian doctrine does provide a theological framework for the notion that a "sinner" can be a Christian.

96 ted  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:49:36am

OMG..........This is an example of the havoc and destruction fanatics can wreak.

97 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:49:47am

I hope this becomes a sober-up moment for at least a few hard right socio-cons. Though I doubt it.

Doing God's work he was.
/

98 Wild Knight  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:50:01am

re: #95 Wild Knight

Bah. I can never manage to get Greek unicode to work on LGF. That sequence of crap should be the Greek equivalent of katholos.

99 ladycatnip  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:50:11am

I shudder to think this may mark a turning point in our political landscape - that crazies on both sides will begin taking the law into their own hands and feel perfectly justified in doing so. Regardless of one's viewpoints on abortion, there is no place for this in a free country - in the ME and under sharia, yes, but not here in America.

My sincere condolences to Tiller's family. I'm praying this murderer will be caught quickly and be given the death penalty for what he did.

100 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:50:14am

re: #83 jaunte

This is why I mention Hannity. He allowed Randall Terry on his show to speak without any balanced opposition during the recent story about Obama speaking at Notre Dame. In the past, Terry has stated "If you believe abortion is murder, you have to act like it's murder." This is a direct result of that kind of 'activism.'

See my #72.

Opinions, even reprehensible ones, do not CAUSE a normal person to murder. There's something wrong in the head already.

101 kansas  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:50:19am

re: #83 jaunte

This is why I mention Hannity. He allowed Randall Terry on his show to speak without any balanced opposition during the recent story about Obama speaking at Notre Dame. In the past, Terry has stated "If you believe abortion is murder, you have to act like it's murder." This is a direct result of that kind of 'activism.'

You imply that means if you believe abortion is murder you should murder someone. That makes no sense. It means to treat it in the justice system as such. And here in Kansas that is being done. Tiller was under investigation because he was accused of not adhering to any medical protocols for the procedures he was doing and was fraudulently altering files and getting sham referrals so he could sell the late term abortions. I think the way it was going his clinic was going to close and his license was in jeopardy. This assine act by an obviously deranged person does not help this now. This should have been allowed to run its legal course.

102 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:50:20am

re: #95 Wild Knight

About Christianity, it's not as simple as that. Generally, the historical definition of Christianity is someone who believes and confesses the items on the Nicaean Creed or their equivalent (keeping in mind that in the Nicaean Creed, Catholic is simply Crasis for καθόλο&# x03C2; = universal and therefore not a reference to ROMAN Catholic). This means that YOU can be a Christian and commit "unchristian" acts (defined as sin by Christians). But then, orthodox Christian doctrine does provide a theological framework for the notion that a "sinner" can be a Christian.

There are an awful lot of people who call themselves Christians at Free Republic, having a party over this murder.

103 Bubbaman  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:50:21am

This is so tragic. Our country is slowly becoming unglued. We have right-wing radicals who fail to obey the law and believe it's their right to murder people. On the other side we have radicals like ANSWER, ACORN, and our President who believe that redistribution and Socialism are the new paradigm.

Once, America was the shining "city on the hill", now I really don't know where to go. As horrific as this mans death was, I fear our blessed nation is following the same path.

104 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:50:38am

re: #97 The Shadow Do

I hope this becomes a sober-up moment for at least a few hard right socio-cons. Though I doubt it.

Doing God's work he was.
/


Yoda?

105 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:51:03am

The perp that is, lest there be any confusion

106 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:51:11am

re: #15 Charles

Commenters at Gateway Pundit are applauding the murder.

Shocked I am./s

107 lobo91  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:51:23am

re: #71 Wild Knight

it might have been a personal issue/non-related crime.

Seems unlikely, given the circumstances.

If you're going to rob someone, or even shoot him because of some hypothetical personal beef, would you do it in front of multiple witnesses in front of a church on Sunday morning?

108 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:51:33am

re: #102 Charles

There are an awful lot of people who call themselves Christians at Free Republic, having a party over this murder.

Committed while the victim was walking into church, no less.

109 MandyManners  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:51:46am

re: #102 Charles

There are an awful lot of people who call themselves Christians at Free Republic, having a party over this murder.

They need to log off and pick up their Bibles.

110 Occasional Reader  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:51:51am

Where does the time go.

Later.

111 carefulnow  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:52:04am

Dr. Tiller provided late abortion care for fetal anomaly.

If you are reading this information, you have received devastating news regarding your pregnancy: a serious or lethal health problem has been diagnosed. We recognize that you are sad and concerned about the diagnosis and this has come as unexpected news. You may, based on the information provided by your doctor or genetics counselor, elect to end your pregnancy early due to the serious medical problem explained to you. At Women's Health Care Services, we offer Fetal Indication Termination of Pregnancy consultation and care.
112 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:52:05am

....and yes, The terribly offensive DHS memo that hurt everybody's feelings specifically mentioned anti-abortion extremists.

113 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:52:05am

re: #103 Bubbaman

This is so tragic. Our country is slowly becoming unglued. We have right-wing radicals who fail to obey the law and believe it's their right to murder people. On the other side we have radicals like ANSWER, ACORN, and our President who believe that redistribution and Socialism are the new paradigm.

Once, America was the shining "city on the hill", now I really don't know where to go. As horrific as this mans death was, I fear our blessed nation is following the same path.

Yep, Weimar Republic, baby. These are the early days (and, for the record, it predates Obama and even W; we've been sliding this way for a while now). Expect more terrorism, more excessive state action, and more terrorism, with more excessive state action. Lather, rinse, repeat.

114 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:52:33am

re: #102 Charles

There are an awful lot of people who call themselves Christians at Free Republic, having a party over this murder.

And I'm grateful that the Christians here are not doing the same thing.

115 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:52:50am

paranoia at the freep

When I first read this, part of me wondered if some liberal isn’t secretly behind this to get just the outcome you have listed. I used to not be so paranoid, until this surreal reality replaced what used to be. Interesting the timing of this, as it was recently released that according to polls a majority of Americans are anti-abortion/pro-life. Good way to discredit the movement and those beliefs - assassinate an abortionist.


posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:17:16 PM by IMissPresidentReagan

116 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:52:50am

re: #86 Charles

Whoa!
"The first thing that came to my mind was what would happen if the perp was a Black Panther..."
Denney Crane %P% Homepage %P% 05.31.09 - 12:44 pm %P% #

This guy needs some meds.

117 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:52:56am

re: #104 spinmore

Shadow

118 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:52:57am

A Freeper comment:

Up to a few years ago, I would have agreed with your statement, Doug.

However, bush2 failed miserably with his "friendly tone" and I'm beginning to think we MUST bring a gun to a gun fight if we have any chance to win this battle against satan and his minions.

119 Wild Knight  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:53:00am

re: #102 Charles

There are an awful lot of people who call themselves Christians at Free Republic, having a party over this murder.

There are an awful lot of Christians who do an awful lot of bad deeds which their own faith condemns. Do I condemn them/it? Yes. Do I deny the fact that the definition of a Christian is one who confesses the articles of the Nicaean Creed or their equivalent? No.

120 Perplexed  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:53:17am

If G_d wanted him dead, then G_d should have killed him, not this dofuss.

Stupidity on the part of the killer and his supporters.

121 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:53:34am

re: #109 MandyManners

They need to log off and pick up their Bibles.

Why? They're just going to throw them. Holy Writ is a weapon for them; nothing more.

122 justdanny  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:53:40am

re: #114 rightymouse

Upding to you. From an atheist.

123 Macker  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:54:14am

re: #114 rightymouse

And I'm grateful that the Christians here are not doing the same thing.

I hope I'm not. My comment #92 (see above) refers to the suspect. Not the abortion doctor.
As despicable as abortion is...the guy was MURDERED. Period. End of Story.

124 kansas  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:54:17am

re: #102 Charles

There are an awful lot of people who call themselves Christians at Free Republic, having a party over this murder.

People are free to call themselves anything they like. I submit that a Christian would neither advocate, celebrate, nor commit murder.

125 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:54:25am

re: #101 kansas

What I'm suggesting is that someone like Terry knows exactly how his message will be received by the less stable people who share his views.

126 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:54:30am

re: #114 rightymouse

And I'm grateful that the Christians here are not doing the same thing.

You say that like you expected us too

127 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:54:37am

re: #85 Nim Chimpsky

And suppose you believe that mole people from the center of the Earth are sending you messages to kill people, you think that will hold up in court?

128 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:54:50am

re: #114 rightymouse

And I'm grateful that the Christians here are not doing the same thing.

No true Lizard

129 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:55:14am

comments from Malkin's blog....

Off subject someone just shot and killed “Tiller The Baby Killer”
130 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:55:29am

This Freeper is worried that the murder will "hurt the anti-abortion" movement, even as he gloats that Tiller is rotting in hell:

I'm not weeping for the scumbag himself.I haven't the fainest doubt that he is,at this very moment,rotting in the very special place in hell that he so richly earned.

What I'm saying is that this will hurt the anti-abortion *cause*...and hurt it badly.

If you doubt me...just watch.

131 justdanny  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:55:33am

re: #126 sattv4u2

You say that like you expected us too


I saw the comment as gratitude, not accusation.

132 Bubbaman  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:55:42am

re: #113 Guanxi88

Yep, Weimar Republic, baby. These are the early days (and, for the record, it predates Obama and even W; we've been sliding this way for a while now). Expect more terrorism, more excessive state action, and more terrorism, with more excessive state action. Lather, rinse, repeat.

This is not the America I grew up in, where neighbor helped neighbor and we identified ourselves as Americans first. While there are still many good people in this country, their deeds are seemingly eclipsed by the increasingly anti-social misfits. The trouble is, where are we good people gonna' go? Our country was the world's last hope and refuge and now it's being taken over and destroyed by refuse.

133 NY Nana  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:55:58am

re: #85 Nim Chimpsky

/Your nic pretty well describes you.

134 kansas  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:55:59am

re: #125 jaunte

What I'm suggesting is that someone like Terry knows exactly how his message will be received by the less stable people who share his views.

Perhaps. I've seen the guy on TV many times and always thought he was off the wall crazy.

135 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:56:06am

re: #131 justdanny

I saw the comment as gratitude, not accusation.

But why would it even cross the posters mind?

136 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:56:23am

re: #124 kansas

People are free to call themselves anything they like. I submit that a Christian would neither advocate, celebrate, nor commit murder.

And when Muslims use that excuse after a suicide bombing ("no true Muslim would do this"), do you agree with it?

137 Thor-Zone  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:56:24am

re: #50 Dave the.....

C) The pro-choice crowd has a martyr and will say "Oh yeah, how about all the so-called pro-life people killing doctors. Guess they really arn't pro-life afterall".

Sadly, this is exactly what will happen. The debate about abortion is really getting out of hand these days. It seems like I hear something about almost every day. I know I am gonna get flamed, but this is really a decision that should not be left up to the government.

138 Perplexed  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:56:26am

re: #129 Killgore Trout

comments from Malkin's blog....

Accurate, but sick.

139 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:56:39am

re: #132 Bubbaman

This is not the America I grew up in, where neighbor helped neighbor and we identified ourselves as Americans first. While there are still many good people in this country, their deeds are seemingly eclipsed by the increasingly anti-social misfits. The trouble is, where are we good people gonna' go? Our country was the world's last hope and refuge and now it's being taken over and destroyed by refuse.

There is no place to go. All I can think to do is to try to rope off a small corner of the world and try to keep things the way I like them. Cultivate our own gardens, as it were.

140 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:56:54am

glad I didn't quote 85

I had a hunch.....

141 MandyManners  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:57:01am

re: #135 sattv4u2

But why would it even cross the posters mind?

To point out how swell we Lizards are?

142 Wild Knight  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:57:17am

re: #107 lobo91

Seems unlikely, given the circumstances.

If you're going to rob someone, or even shoot him because of some hypothetical personal beef, would you do it in front of multiple witnesses in front of a church on Sunday morning?


Frankly, I dunno what people will do. There was a mass murder recently in front of my church, on a parvis full of witnesses by someone who was massively pissed off because his wife left him and took away his kids. Killer her, her new partner and a couple of people who got in the way of his shots.

143 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:57:26am

re: #139 Guanxi88

There is no place to go. All I can think to do is to try to rope off a small corner of the world and try to keep things the way I like them. Cultivate our own gardens, as it were.

And guard the borders.

144 MandyManners  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:57:53am

Where are Christians commanded to kill those who are not?

145 justdanny  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:57:55am

re: #135 sattv4u2
Because 'radical christians' is a fact. And 'non radical christians' is a fact.

And they could be here, like they are there. But they arent.

146 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:58:05am

re: #143 itellu3times

And guard the borders.

Well, I think that one is off the agenda for this Pres, as for previous.

147 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:58:18am

re: #109 MandyManners

They need to log off and pick up their Bibles.

They need to log off and have their asses kicked. Their Bibles aren't doing them any good.

148 MandyManners  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:58:20am

The Kid's finally out of bed. bbl

149 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:58:26am

re: #69 Charles

The Free Republic thread on this is vile. I can't believe those people exist in this country.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

This is over the top IMHO (from Free Republic)


"Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society.
I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that..."

150 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:58:30am

re: #141 MandyManners

To point out how swell we Lizards are?

SWILL !"!?!?!?!?!


oh ,, swEll ,,,, damn , I need glasses!

151 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:59:01am

This is horrible. This is also a flashback to the 90's and the growth of rightwing extremist domestic terrorism. The climate that birthed a Timothy McVeigh.


This is also Eric Rudolph and Paul Hill all over again. There are always lunatics on both sides, but right now there is a pressure-cooker of hate going on-- isolated, angry, unhappy people who have lost jobs and homes and always hated "the gays" or "the blacks" or "the mexicans" or whoever anyway. Glenn beck, michelle Malkin, and many others are fueling this vigorously-- they rave about armed insurrection, about revolution--and some people listening are taking that seriously.

I think we will see many more such incidents in the coming years. These are the real right wing extremists that the DHS was warning about.

(and let's not forget that lunatic who shot up a unitarian universalist church last year, who left a suicide note proclaiming "kill all liberals!"--his house was filled with books by beck and hannity, and those commie liberals he hated wrestled him to the ground and disarmed him when he tried to murder the entire congregation)

152 Perplexed  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:59:09am

re: #147 capitalist piglet

They need to log off and have their asses kicked. Their Bibles aren't doing them any good.

They might want to read their Bible instead of using it as a table decoration.

153 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:59:10am

I hope they take the perp alive to face the bright lights of a courtroom. A teaching moment, I hope, for his sympaticos.

I know the difference between hope and crap when filling one's hands by the way...

154 Last Mohican  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:59:16am

re: #118 Charles

That is very, very creepy.

155 justdanny  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:59:17am

Getting clothes from dryers time.

156 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:59:25am

re: #149 avanti

This is over the top IMHO (from Free Republic)

"Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society.
I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that..."

The madness is everywhere.

157 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:59:27am

re: #39 Charles

They're also cheering the murder at Free Republic.

I haven't been there in a couple of years, but I just went and read every comment to the news post. It doesn't look too whack at all to me. Sure, there were some crazy comments (like this ... "However, bush2 failed miserably with his "friendly tone" and I'm beginning to think we MUST bring a gun to a gun fight if we have any chance to win this battle against satan and his minions. ", posted by 'newfreep'), but most of the them (the comments) were pretty okay I thought. I can't remember why I got turned off to freerepublic .... are there a bunch of crazies over there?

158 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:59:28am

re: #145 justdanny

Because 'radical christians' is a fact. And 'non radical christians' is a fact.

And they could be here, like they are there. But they arent.

So tilting at windmills is not a waste of time for you, huh?

159 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:00:06am

re: #149 avanti

Yes, Hot Air readers are worried that Fox News is going to get blamed.

160 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:00:18am

given the amount of Gibberish being spoted on the Freeper Thread, I dedicate this to them:

The X-Files: I Want To Believe

Youtube Video
161 solomonpanting  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:00:53am

That clinic has had its share of attacks, most recently:

The Wichita Eagle said Tiller's clinic was severely vandalized earlier this month. The newspaper said The Associated Press reported that wires to security cameras and outdoor lights were cut and that the vandals also cut through the roof and plugged the building's downspouts.

162 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:01:07am

re: #122 justdanny

Upding to you. From an atheist.

:)

163 lobo91  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:01:11am

re: #142 Wild Knight

Frankly, I dunno what people will do. There was a mass murder recently in front of my church, on a parvis full of witnesses by someone who was massively pissed off because his wife left him and took away his kids. Killer her, her new partner and a couple of people who got in the way of his shots.

There are certainly precedents for that sort of thing (workplace shootings, commonly), but from the description of the attack, it doesn't sound like that sort of attack. No bystanders were hit, from what I've heard.

I certainly don't claim any special expertise, just pointing out that it seemed a little to well planned to be something other than a hit intended to send a message.

164 enoughalready  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:01:14am

re: #69 Charles

Well you better believe it.

And it's... no, I am too damn angry to write anything else right now.

165 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:01:15am

"Crazy is as crazy does"
- Gump's mom (?)

166 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:01:34am

re: #149 avanti

This is over the top IMHO (from Free Republic)


"Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society.
I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that..."

That one needs some Thorazine.

167 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:01:39am

This FReep thread is about as whacked out batshit crazypants as it can possibly get.

To think I used to be a Freeper. Gah.

168 AMER1CAN  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:01:55am

Late term abortions should be disallowed unless in extreme circumstances when necessary. To simply decide you don't want a baby and to get a late term abortion performed is something I cannot agree with. I am all for pro-choice, family planning, night after pill, etc,.... but after a certain point in a pregnancy you make a decision to keep that baby (extreme circumstances not withstanding) and I don't think late term abortions should be performed on the fly or through the drive-through.

I know nothing about this doctor other then what I am reading in these comments and the article Charles posted. Doesn't sound like he was the greatest guy. However, we are a nation of laws, and laws must be followed.

Now back to Sunday afternoon....

169 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:01:55am

re: #50 Dave the.....

re: #15 Charles

A) Pro-life people don't kill or applaud those that kill.
B) A guy like Tiller is a good recruitment tool for the Pro-life crowd ("Look at this guy in Kansas and what he is going..."). But now....
C) The pro-choice crowd has a martyr and will say "Oh yeah, how about all the so-called pro-life people killing doctors. Guess they really arn't pro-life afterall".

That's pretty much what the majority of comments are like at freerepublic.com.

170 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:02:21am

re: #151 iceweasel

This is horrible. This is also a flashback to the 90's and the growth of rightwing extremist domestic terrorism. The climate that birthed a Timothy McVeigh.


This is also Eric Rudolph and Paul Hill all over again. There are always lunatics on both sides, but right now there is a pressure-cooker of hate going on-- isolated, angry, unhappy people who have lost jobs and homes and always hated "the gays" or "the blacks" or "the mexicans" or whoever anyway. Glenn beck, michelle Malkin, and many others are fueling this vigorously-- they rave about armed insurrection, about revolution--and some people listening are taking that seriously.

I think we will see many more such incidents in the coming years. These are the real right wing extremists that the DHS was warning about.

(and let's not forget that lunatic who shot up a unitarian universalist church last year, who left a suicide note proclaiming "kill all liberals!"--his house was filled with books by beck and hannity, and those commie liberals he hated wrestled him to the ground and disarmed him when he tried to murder the entire congregation)

Geez, don't have a meltdown iceweasel.

171 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:02:52am

re: #167 Alouette

This FReep thread is about as whacked out batshit crazypants as it can possibly get.

To think I used to be a Freeper. Gah.

Oh, I think they'll pass that one in short order. The well of Teh Krazee has no bottom, and is fed by a perpetual spring.

172 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:03:06am

re: #123 Macker

I hope I'm not. My comment #92 (see above) refers to the suspect. Not the abortion doctor.
As despicable as abortion is...the guy was MURDERED. Period. End of Story.

That's the crux of the matter. He was murdered.

173 Wendya  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:03:09am

re: #17 jaunte

Sean Hannity gives people like Randall Terry a platform to encourage the crazies to act out, and they do.

Uh-huh.

Because crazies have never acted out unless someone was secretly controlling them!

/

174 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:03:12am

re: #157 Fearless Fred

I haven't been there in a couple of years, but I just went and read every comment to the news post. It doesn't look too whack at all to me. Sure, there were some crazy comments (like this ... "However, bush2 failed miserably with his "friendly tone" and I'm beginning to think we MUST bring a gun to a gun fight if we have any chance to win this battle against satan and his minions. ", posted by 'newfreep'), but most of the them (the comments) were pretty okay I thought. I can't remember why I got turned off to freerepublic .... are there a bunch of crazies over there?

Are you serious? Did you miss these comments?

One less nazi as far as I am concerned.

...

What goes around comes around...

...

Hope the guy gets away.

...

When I first read this, part of me wondered if some liberal isn’t secretly behind this to get just the outcome you have listed. I used to not be so paranoid, until this surreal reality replaced what used to be. Interesting the timing of this, as it was recently released that according to polls a majority of Americans are anti-abortion/pro-life. Good way to discredit the movement and those beliefs - assassinate an abortionist.

...

Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society.

I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that...

...

No doubt this ‘man’ is responsible for thousands, maybe tens-of-thousands of needless and wanton deaths. If you think his ‘passing’ is a bad thing in the cause of speaking out and ending the practice of abortion, I don’t know what to tell you. I can only say that I shall not mourn his demise, nor shall I judge others.

That's just from the beginning of the first page. There are hundreds of comments like this.

175 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:04:30am

re: #159 Killgore Trout

Yes, Hot Air readers are worried that Fox News is going to get blamed.

The only possible good news is maybe just maybe, some will step back from the abyss and act like the adults we'd like in the loyal opposition.

176 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:04:51am

It's amazing how fast wikipedia updates

177 idioma  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:04:53am

So let me get this straight:

Life begins at conception, but ends in assassination?

178 Thor-Zone  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:04:57am

re: #81 Occasional Reader

Rahm Emmanuel, Obama, et. al. will all use this as an example of how “hypocritical” “Christians” are, as well as to further alienate religion. Say goodbye to all portions of the First Amendment.

Sadly I completely agree with you. the left will use this sick act as leverage to further erode our rights under the Bill of Rights. Its what they do.

179 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:05:06am

re: #173 Wendya

Public encouragement to act out is what's happening, not "secret control."

180 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:05:22am

re: #167 Alouette

This FReep thread is about as whacked out batshit crazypants as it can possibly get.

To think I used to be a Freeper. Gah.

Did you get banned? You must have been too reasonable.

I remember when some of them were practically on the verge of printing "RUN RUN RUDOLPH" shirts.

181 Egregious Philbin  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:05:33am

re: #171 Guanxi88

I looked at Freek Republic, its beyond disgusting. It once was an OK site, but now its the last refuge of the complete nutcases, anti science talibornagains, and vicious people who are all such "good Christians"

They have dwindled down to a shell of what they once were, don't expect it to last much longer.

182 Bubbaman  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:05:34am

It's a beautiful day, here in D.C. and after an early morning bike ride with one of my school buds, I was reminded of how lucky we are. I think I'm going to go outside, thank G-d for all of his wonders, and enjoy the gift.

183 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:05:40am

re: #175 avanti

The only possible good news is maybe just maybe, some will step back from the abyss and act like the adults we'd like in the loyal opposition.

Most of us in the "loyal opposition" already do.

184 callahan23  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:05:40am

re: #122 justdanny

Upding to you. From an atheist.

:-)

185 General Nimrod Bodfish  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:05:45am

re: #174 Charles

Very, very disgusting that there are people that think like that.

186 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:06:08am

The 24 hour rule is in effect, we don't know who, we don't know motive. However there are already people in this thread trying to put up apologist material just in case.

Here's the local news link:

[Link: www.kake.com...]

187 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:06:16am

re: #126 sattv4u2

You say that like you expected us too

Not at all. You misunderstood me. It was gratitude.

188 researchok  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:06:33am

The person who killed George Tiller is a Christian or Conservative in the same way Josef Mengele was a doctor.

189 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:07:09am

The 80/20 principle (broadly applied)
80% are nuts
20% are not (. . . so nuts)

. . . not sure where I fit in

190 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:07:12am

re: #187 rightymouse

Not at all. You misunderstood me. It was gratitude.

I apologize for the misread

191 Wendya  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:07:24am

re: #179 jaunte

Public encouragement to act out is what's happening, not "secret control."

Ah, I must have missed the part where Hannity encouraged someone to kill this guy. Would you be so kind as to post a link?

192 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:07:42am

re: #175 avanti

The only possible good news is maybe just maybe, some will step back from the abyss and act like the adults we'd like in the loyal opposition.

I surely hope you said things like this in the past on the lefty blogs you frequent, avanti. The Left has been anything but "adult" for the past eight years.

193 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:08:12am

re: #151 iceweasel

Typical lefty, stifle commentators, outlaw guns, etc, etc.

except for the left favored commentators of course. Are you seriously going to argue that this is the fault of the Hannity or whomever?

Good grief.

194 notutopia  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:08:12am

re: #57 MandyManners

Thou shalt not kill.

Applause to your comment Mandy.
Whether it is the murder of the late-term unborn or, the murder of this man, MURDER is morally wrong.
As for those who are gleefully gloating over the murderous demise of this Dr., they need to re-evaluate the laws and their own morality. Their glee is hypocrisy.
His murder is NO different than any murder. Do they glee when others are murdered as well?
*spit*

195 KingKenrod  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:08:30am

Is it really that mystifying that over-emotional hyper-partisans would anonymously post crazy things on the internet?

196 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:08:43am

re: #191 Wendya

Hannity gave Randall Terry an unopposed segment on his show. Randall Terry's extreme rhetoric encourages the crazies to act out.

197 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:09:21am

re: #175 avanti

Fat chance another one of the preachers who's been targeting him just put out another press release....
Fr. Pavone on Tiller Killing

"I am saddened to hear of the killing of George Tiller this morning. At this point, we do not know the motives of this act, or who is behind it, whether an angry post-abortive man or woman, or a misguided activist, or an enemy within the abortion industry, or a political enemy frustrated with the way Tiller has escaped prosecution. We should not jump to conclusions or rush to judgment.

They're already deflecting.

198 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:09:26am

re: #192 capitalist piglet

I surely hope you said things like this in the past on the lefty blogs you frequent, avanti. The Left has been anything but "adult" for the past eight years.

Chimpy McBushHitler is NOT adult !?!?!?

[Link: www.google.com...]

199 Fenway_Nation  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:09:51am

Does Fred Phelps have an alibi?

200 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:09:52am

Did any of you know George Tiller wasn't an OBGYN?

his training

1967 - 1968 Internship U.S. Naval Hospital - Camp Pendleton, California
1968 - 1969 Naval Aero-Space Medical Institute Flight Surgeon Course


He was board certified in Family practice not OB
but then again, he didn't deliver live babies

201 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:10:31am

Madness in the world

202 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:10:51am

Must be them Amish. Or maybe a buddhist.../

203 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:11:05am

re: #195 KingKenrod

Is it really that mystifying that over-emotional hyper-partisans would anonymously post crazy things on the internet?

To an extent, it's not that surprising. What's shocking, though, is that the ease aand speed with which they can do this appears to encourage them to continue to do so, and perhaps even to express opinions in an anonymous way that they would perhaps not do in a real forum. Over time, the practice of radical speech, and the approval of anonymous "colleagues" can lead to growing radicalization of an individual; the leap from words to deeds is a long one, but can be taken in a series of small steps without any great effort, much to the surprise of all involved, when it does happen.

204 idioma  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:11:10am

I don't want to jump to conclusions just yet, I mean, guessing what the motive was - a pro-life-zealot. I guess we'll have to wait. It's disgusting to murder a doctor.

205 rhino2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:11:41am

re: #57 MandyManners

Thou shalt not kill.

More accurately Thou shall not murder. It still applies in this case of course.

206 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:11:41am

re: #196 jaunte

Hannity gave Randall Terry an unopposed segment on his show. Randall Terry's extreme rhetoric encourages the crazies to act out.


What's your point? Should he have been challenged or shut-up?

207 HAL2010  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:11:48am

After reading some of the Freeper comments I wonder what sort of God those people pray to.

How do they sleep at night?

208 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:12:08am

re: #192 capitalist piglet

I surely hope you said things like this in the past on the lefty blogs you frequent, avanti. The Left has been anything but "adult" for the past eight years.

I hope you knew I was talking about the types posting on Free Republic, not this little corner of sanity. Trust me, if I'd seen a leftie blog accuse Bush of murder, I'd speak up.

209 Wendya  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:12:15am

re: #196 jaunte

Hannity gave Randall Terry an unopposed segment on his show. Randall Terry's extreme rhetoric encourages the crazies to act out.

That is not what I asked you for. I asked for a link showing Hannity or someone on his show calling for their viewers to run out an murder their opponents.

Don't pass off the responsibility to others. That's left wing "we're not responsible for anything" bullshit thinking.

210 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:12:15am

re: #206 spinmore

He should have been challenged.

211 Bubbaman  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:12:17am

re: #136 Charles

And when Muslims use that excuse after a suicide bombing ("no true Muslim would do this"), do you agree with it?

While that is true, I hope that unlike the supposed "silent" Muslim majority who eschew violence, the majority of Christian Americans will be vociferous both in word and deed in opposition to this horrific terroristic crime.

212 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:12:23am

I hate this thread. I'm going to the next one.
---------->

/oh wait.

213 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:12:38am

re: #207 HAL2010

After reading some of the Freeper comments I wonder what sort of God those people pray to.

How do they sleep at night?

It's not God who is the problem.

214 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:12:47am
215 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:12:49am

re: #195 KingKenrod

Is it really that mystifying that over-emotional hyper-partisans would anonymously post crazy things on the internet?

The moderators at Free Republic encourage and allow those kinds of comments, and do nothing to clean them up.

216 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:13:16am

re: #210 jaunte

He should have been challenged.


Being devil's advocate . . . 'Fairness Doctrine' ?

217 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:13:18am

Sean Hannity doing a show causes people to murder

like

Coke machines make people fat

218 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:13:19am

re: #197 Killgore Trout

Fat chance another one of the preachers who's been targeting him just put out another press release....
Fr. Pavone on Tiller Killing


They're already deflecting.

So are you. You must have accidently left out the rest of the quote.
"But whatever the motives, we at Priests for Life continue to insist on a culture in which violence is never seen as the solution to any problem. Every life has to be protected, without regard to their age or views or actions."

219 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:13:22am

There is the rule of law and respect for the judicial process and the there is vigilantism. As despicable as some of the practices that Dr. George Tiller undertook he was found not guilty on 19 misdemeanor charges at the end of March.

Those that applaud his murder are displaying a disrespect for the rule of law while at the same time expanding the mainstreaming of such acts and approval within a particular group. Vigilantism and the disrespect of law and order is not a conservative value.

220 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:13:27am
221 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:13:51am

re: #208 avanti

I hope you knew I was talking about the types posting on Free Republic, not this little corner of sanity. Trust me, if I'd seen a leftie blog accuse Bush of murder, I'd speak up.

I appreciate that - but you mean you didn't? That was practically a daily feature on DU.

222 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:14:07am

re: #208 avanti

if I'd seen a leftie blog accuse Bush of murder, I'd speak up.


start talking

[Link: www.google.com...]

223 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:14:18am

re: #190 sattv4u2

I apologize for the misread

Thanks. :)

224 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:14:49am

At the local news link I posted above there's a 1991 interview with Dr. Tiller, and the scene at the courtroom after he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers in March this year.

225 Athos  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:14:58am

re: #11 commadore183

As much as I hate his practices, this is no way to show your displeasure. I hope they find his murder and prosecute him/her to the full extent of the law. There is absolutely NO excuse for this.

RIP Tiller, and thoughts and prayers goes to his family and friends.

I agree entirely.

226 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:15:07am

"All the world's a stage . . . and the play sucks"
- 'spinmore'

227 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:15:09am

re: #211 Bubbaman

While that is true, I hope that unlike the supposed "silent" Muslim majority who eschew violence, the majority of Christian Americans will be vociferous both in word and deed in opposition to this horrific terroristic crime.

When they do, without any information yet on who did it or why (except assumptions*), they are "deflecting".

*Assumptions based on perfectly reasonable suspicions are still assumptions. I, for one, am completely certain this man was murdered because of who he was and what he did by a person who was certain he was doing "God's Will". And it is all based on assumptions.

228 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:15:41am

re: #218 VegasRick

These are the preachers who got the man killed. They're trying to deflect and cover their asses.

229 notutopia  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:15:43am

re: #213 capitalist piglet

It's not God who is the problem.

Thank you! No it's NOT. It's the immorality of our present population that feels it's okay to off someone just because they disagree with them.
We're spinning out of control with hate and compulsion for abuse of our emotions.

230 Flyers1974  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:15:52am

re: #113 Guanxi88

Yep, Weimar Republic, baby. These are the early days (and, for the record, it predates Obama and even W; we've been sliding this way for a while now). Expect more terrorism, more excessive state action, and more terrorism, with more excessive state action. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I don't know. Comparing the US today to the Weimar Republic seems a stretch. Germany had recently suffered total defeat and economic collapse. Communists and Nazis were armed and killing one another. The Germans never believed in the Weimar Republic much to begin with. They went from an autocratic goverment to a very weak government. Not sure there is much in common between Weimar and the US.

231 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:15:53am

re: #221 capitalist piglet

I appreciate that - but you mean you didn't? That was practically a daily feature on DU.

Perhaps that why I was treated much worse there then I have been here recently.

232 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:15:54am

re: #218 VegasRick

So are you. You must have accidently left out the rest of the quote.
"But whatever the motives, we at Priests for Life continue to insist on a culture in which violence is never seen as the solution to any problem. Every life has to be protected, without regard to their age or views or actions."

Not ... gasp ... QUOTE MINING.

/

233 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:16:01am

re: #215 Charles

The moderators at Free Republic encourage and allow those kinds of comments, and do nothing to clean them up.

Not very effective 'moderators'.

234 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:16:18am

re: #222 sattv4u2


if I'd seen a leftie blog accuse Bush of murder, I'd speak up.


start talking

[Link: www.google.com...]

I think he was joking.

235 Irenicum  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:16:25am

I consider myself to be strongly pro life, even though I hold to many other views that are typically "liberal". In any case this act is simply despicable. How anyone can call themselves "pro life" while committing blatant murder is beyond me. Awful. Just awful. My prayers are with the doctor's family and his fellow parishioners.

236 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:16:33am

re: #180 capitalist piglet

Did you get banned? You must have been too reasonable.

I remember when some of them were practically on the verge of printing "RUN RUN RUDOLPH" shirts.

I did not get ZOTTed (as they call "banning" over there) I just stopped posting there after all the election meltdowns.

237 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:17:02am

Koskidz have already noticed the Freepers reaction....
Freepers Respond to Abortion Doctor Tiller Assassination

238 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:17:09am

re: #234 VegasRick

I think he was joking.

joking ,, or A joke!?!?

239 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:17:36am

re: #236 Alouette

I did not get ZOTTed (as they call "banning" over there) I just stopped posting there after all the election meltdowns.

No flounce? What fun is that?

/

240 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:18:11am

re: #236 Alouette

I did not get ZOTTed (as they call "banning" over there) I just stopped posting there after all the election meltdowns.

What, no flameout? No repeated posts insulting the admins/owners saying how crappy it is and how you want your account deleted?

BO-RING.

241 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:19:02am

Sick, sick, sick:

It’s too bad the suspect didn’t poke a roto rooter through his skull and then suck him into a vacuum cleaner instead of just shooting the bastard.

...

You guys celebrating this may just be celebrating the loss of your own freedoms. Don't be fools. This isn't good nor is it right.

My, my, that idea just scares me to death. I guess I should be a damned hypocrite and say that I'm sorry someone offed the lousey ration of skunksqueeze.

Not in this life.

...

Hmmm. The shooter no doubt committed murder by our laws.
Whether he will be judged as a murderer by God may be an open question, and none of us know the answer.

In 1942 Reinhard Heydrich was killed in Prague in cold blood. Czech commandos committed what was by the law of the land murder. They were from a country that had surrendered and they were not in uniform. They did this because he was orchestrating the destruction of the Czech people. Did they kill a tyrant or commit murder or both? There is also the case of course of John Brown and slavery.

Yes we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of not obeying them.

...

Do you think that it would have been murder to assignate Hitler? And don't say that the question has no relevance -- this crud was a leading the killer-of-innocents criminal thugs that has already killed throughout the world far more innocents that Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined.

His killer did a great service when noone else would do it.

It goes on and on and on.

242 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:19:18am

re: #234 VegasRick

I think he was joking.

No, actually missed that sort of insane comment, but I only started dropping in on Kos occasionally last summer.

243 Athos  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:19:19am

re: #236 Alouette

I did not get ZOTTed (as they call "banning" over there) I just stopped posting there after all the election meltdowns.

No blogosphere 'oscar' for you.....has to be an over-the-top uber dramatic exit.

244 KingKenrod  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:19:39am

re: #215 Charles

The moderators at Free Republic encourage and allow those kinds of comments, and do nothing to clean them up.

You're right; I stopped going over there a long time ago. I just wonder if what they do over there is really that important - are they an opinion "leader" or have they marginalized themselves to crackpot land?

245 notutopia  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:20:01am

re: #215 Charles

The moderators at Free Republic encourage and allow those kinds of comments, and do nothing to clean them up.

Then they are just as responsible and might as well call it "passive-aggressive agreement" and, it is sickening for all of humanity to allow and condone the crud statements that get posted there!

246 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:20:02am

re: #238 sattv4u2

joking ,, or A joke!?!?

if I'd seen a leftie blog accuse Bush of murder, I'd speak up.

Is there a leftie blog that didn't accuse Bush and Co. of murder?
The joker is joking.

247 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:20:28am

Preachers didn't kill tiller
talk radio didn't kill tiller
radio waves transmitted through mercury fillings didn't kill tiller

a fucking crazy asshole killed him.

blaming the preachers, the TV, the radio is as wrong as blaming Tiller. After all, Tiller did some inflammatory medical practices. Why not blame him?
( that's what the radical right wing is doing . they are blaming him he brought it on. he deserved it )

Blame the SOB who killed him and nobody else

quit making excuses .

248 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:20:57am

re: #246 VegasRick

see his 242

249 kansas  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:21:02am

re: #136 Charles

And when Muslims use that excuse after a suicide bombing ("no true Muslim would do this"), do you agree with it?

The problem with me answering this is that I am not familiar with actual teachings in the Quran. There are suicide bombings, honor killings, beheadings and violence done by Muslims who claim it was done in the name of Islam. Where is this coming from? Are then tenets of Islam violent or not violent?. If they are violent, then the exuse that no true Muslim would be violent is a red herring to throw reasonable people off the track and lead them make the claim that Islam is the Religion of Peace and that jihad is a "personal struggle".

If the tenets of Islam are indeed peaceful, then it would be true that the honor killings, beheadings, jihad, suicide bombings, are being done by those who are not exercising the true tenets of Islam, thereby are not true Muslims. It does seem to me to be unlikely that the degree of this I see is not coming from some central source.

Having been raised as a Christian I know the tenets of the religion do not involve murdering or advocating the murder of anyone.

250 Wendya  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:21:11am

re: #228 Killgore Trout

These are the preachers who got the man killed. They're trying to deflect and cover their asses.

You're channeling stupid today.

"They" didn't get anyone killed. Speaking out against someone's profession or personal beliefs is not the same as murdering someone.

251 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:21:11am

re: #209 Wendya

That is not what I asked you for. I asked for a link showing Hannity or someone on his show calling for their viewers to run out an murder their opponents.

Don't pass off the responsibility to others. That's left wing "we're not responsible for anything" bullshit thinking.

Hannity or a guest on his show will not openly call for murder. But saying that certain doctors are involved in a "second Holocaust" is irresponsible, and hosting advocates for an extremist viewpoint without any balance is also irresponsible.

252 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:21:14am

re: #215 Charles

The moderators at Free Republic encourage and allow those kinds of comments, and do nothing to clean them up.

The moderators were very diligent in purging all the Rudy supporters during the primaries.

253 neocon hippie  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:21:32am

To be fair, there are voices of sanity amidst the craziness at Freep.

For more consistent sanity in the right-wing blogosphere, I go to Neo-Neocon, Shrinkwrapped, and Bookworm, as well as VDH's posts on PJM.

254 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:21:49am

re: #247 Shug

Preachers didn't kill tiller
talk radio didn't kill tiller
radio waves transmitted through mercury fillings didn't kill tiller

a fucking crazy asshole killed him.

blaming the preachers, the TV, the radio is as wrong as blaming Tiller. After all, Tiller did some inflammatory medical practices. Why not blame him?
( that's what the radical right wing is doing . they are blaming him he brought it on. he deserved it )

Blame the SOB who killed him and nobody else

quit making excuses .

Updinged (only once, I'm not a democrat)
/

255 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:22:10am

re: #39 Charles

They're also cheering the murder at Free Republic.

That's no surprise. The FR glorifies knuckle-dragging; heck, it's an art form on that blog.

256 pink freud  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:22:41am

re: #244 KingKenrod

You're right; I stopped going over there a long time ago. I just wonder if what they do over there is really that important - are they an opinion "leader" or have they marginalized themselves to crackpot land?

These days it seems that in the blogosphere, "crackpot land" is not 'marginalized', it is the norm.

/kos,huffpo, freepers, AS, HA ...and on and on

257 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:22:44am

re: #248 sattv4u2

see his 242

Bush and Co. stopped the killing last summer!
/numbnuts

258 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:23:17am

re: #228 Killgore Trout

These are the preachers who got the man killed. They're trying to deflect and cover their asses.

Don't you think we should restrict our blame to the actual perp, at least until we know more? You're kind of wildly speculating here, it seems.

259 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:23:21am

The comments at free republic are appalling. I thought it would be just a few comments, but it's wall to wall.

260 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:23:24am

re: #214 Iron Fist

Hannity has Al Sharpton on his show fairly often, too. Does this make Hannity (or for that matter, Sharpton) responsible for the voter intimidation by the Black Panthers that we were discussing on the overnight thread?

I think Sharpton encourages thuggish behavior.

261 Abu Kuffar  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:23:57am

Prayers for Mr. Tiller's family, may he rest in peace.

262 idioma  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:24:35am

re: #249 kansas

Christianity DOES advocate killing people.

Don't make me open up my Bible to Leviticus or Deuteronomy, there's plenty of advocating murder.

You pick and choose what parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest, because it's convenient to do so in a free country with separation of church and state.

263 califleftyb  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:24:59am

"...I do not suggest that the debate surrounding abortion can or should go away. No matter how much we may want to fudge it - indeed, while we know that the views of most Americans on the subject are complex and even contradictory - the fact is that at some level, the views of the two camps are irreconcilable. Each side will continue to make its case to the public with passion and conviction. But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature. Open hearts. Open minds. Fair-minded words."

Just days ago President Obama said these words at Notre Dame commencement, calm reasonable words for calm reasonable people. The problem is that fanatics whether in the guise of a madman wielding a handgun or a rogue state wielding a nuclear weapon will not join the debate with open hearts nor open minds, and to think they ever will is naivety bordering on irresponsibility.

264 Macker  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:25:05am

re: #260 jaunte

I think Sharpton encourages thuggish behavior.

Sharpton and the "Reverend" Jesse Jackson are thugs.

265 Abu Kuffar  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:25:18am

re: #252 Alouette

And some people have nerve calling LGF stalinist..

266 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:25:42am

re: #247 Shug
Good rant (agreed)

267 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:25:46am

re: #168 AMER1CAN

Late term abortions should be disallowed unless in extreme circumstances when necessary. To simply decide you don't want a baby and to get a late term abortion performed is something I cannot agree with. I am all for pro-choice, family planning, night after pill, etc,.... but after a certain point in a pregnancy you make a decision to keep that baby (extreme circumstances not withstanding) and I don't think late term abortions should be performed on the fly or through the drive-through.

but this is part of the misconception (sic) about abortion in general and late-term abortion in particular. Women don't waltz into a doctor's office at 6, 7, 8, 9 months pregnant and say "hey! I want an abortion! Nope, never thought about this at all before, tee-hee!"--that is the propaganda the so-cons spew about it.

Late-term abortions shouldn't even be called "abortion"-- they're *already* performed largely on purely medical reasons. I'll give you one example, which just happened to a friend: imagine a woman who discovers that her fetus is already dead when she's 7 months pregnant. Choices open to her: induce labour and go through that process--giving birth and enduring labour when you KNOW the fetus is already dead-- or having this medical procedure.
my friend is Catholic and a mother of 4. Her procedure, guess what, is called "late-term abortion".

268 rightymouse  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:25:46am

re: #228 Killgore Trout

These are the preachers who got the man killed. They're trying to deflect and cover their asses.

That is such an ignorant, libelous statement on so many levels I'm not sure where to begin.

But I won't bother and go outside instead to enjoy the glorious day.

269 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:26:18am

re: #253 neocon hippie

To be fair, there are voices of sanity amidst the craziness at Freep.

True, and this is what happens to them:

This thread, and the other one, are disgraceful, and are an embarrassment to the conservative movement.

BOO-cotton-pickin' -HOO.

270 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:26:35am

re: #262 idioma

Christianity DOES advocate killing people.

Don't make me open up my Bible to Leviticus or Deuteronomy, there's plenty of advocating murder.

You pick and choose what parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest, because it's convenient to do so in a free country with separation of church and state.

There is no advocating of murder in Leviticus or Deuteronomy. There are many listings of capital crimes, which today are not prosecuted.

271 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:26:48am

re: #69 Charles

The Free Republic thread on this is vile. I can't believe those people exist in this country.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

I guess there are several threads. I had been reading a different one than you. I'm not saying it's okay, but it doesn't have nearly so many whacky hateful comments. Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 11:35:48 AM by Kansas58

272 kansas  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:27:22am

re: #262 idioma

Christianity DOES advocate killing people.

Don't make me open up my Bible to Leviticus or Deuteronomy, there's plenty of advocating murder.

You pick and choose what parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest, because it's convenient to do so in a free country with separation of church and state.

Look, I'm not a Biblical scholar, but I do know that Leviticus and Deuteronomy were in the old testament before Christ was born, therefore before Christianity.

273 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:27:37am

re: #230 Flyers1974

I don't know. Comparing the US today to the Weimar Republic seems a stretch. Germany had recently suffered total defeat and economic collapse. Communists and Nazis were armed and killing one another. The Germans never believed in the Weimar Republic much to begin with. They went from an autocratic goverment to a very weak government. Not sure there is much in common between Weimar and the US.

Let's go down the list, shall we?

1) Economic collapse? - In progress.
2) Social and moral decay? - Weimar "outrages" would be PG or PG-13 today.
3) Armed radicals, left and right? - Check, and we can expect a continuation of political violence.

I didn't say we're there. Not yet, but the slide is there. A once great nation, suffering the effects of bearing ALONE the costs of a war, economic downturn, a fragmented culture, moral decline, contempt for the rule of low left, right, and center, and political violence in a time of weak and ineffective governments. We've got a light case of the Weimar flu; give it time.

274 Bubbaman  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:27:38am

re: #217 Shug

Sean Hannity doing a show causes people to murder

like

Coke machines make people fat

I'll tell you where this breaks down and express my issues with Hannity (then I'll go outside, I promise). Hannity, like many of his contemporaries is a gasoline thrower. While he calls attention to significant issues, he rarely proposes solutions that fit within the contextual framework of our legal system. Thus, Hannity's McCarthy'esque style does little more than to rev up the sensibilities of his legions. Those who listen to Hannity's inflammatory rhetoric feel empowered and encumbered by our apparently inept legal system. Thus the Hannityite feels well within his/her dominion to become judge, jury, and executioner.

One can easily walk past a coke machine without purchasing a can, but to the initiated follower, the mind control games that Hannity and others play is very dangerous.

275 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:27:54am

re: #272 kansas

good point.

276 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:28:04am

re: #247 Shug

Preachers didn't kill tiller
talk radio didn't kill tiller
radio waves transmitted through mercury fillings didn't kill tiller

a fucking crazy asshole killed him.

blaming the preachers, the TV, the radio is as wrong as blaming Tiller. After all, Tiller did some inflammatory medical practices. Why not blame him?
( that's what the radical right wing is doing . they are blaming him he brought it on. he deserved it )

Blame the SOB who killed him and nobody else

quit making excuses .

Hey friend..Hope you are well
We are quick to blame the education of children in the ME.. To kill Jewish Children..The most vile things via TV..
So influence via parents, TV and society is fair..
Hell..We could drive south for 2 hours today and be in church handling rattlesnakes...How do think those kids will work out? :)
/Watching NASCAR ....

277 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:28:37am

re: #270 Alouette

There is no advocating of murder in Leviticus or Deuteronomy. There are many listings of capital crimes, which today are not prosecuted.

Details........PAH!
/

278 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:29:06am

re: #217 Shug

Sean Hannity doing a show causes people to murder

like

Coke machines make people fat

More like, Coke machines dispensing guns and bullets, enables things we don't want to enable.

Hannity, and Rush, are both acting very lost these days.

279 Macker  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:29:07am

re: #262 idioma

Christianity DOES advocate killing people.

Don't make me open up my Bible to Leviticus or Deuteronomy, there's plenty of advocating murder.

You pick and choose what parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest, because it's convenient to do so in a free country with separation of church and state.

'Scuse me. There's a difference between killing and murdering someone. One can kill a person during war, because that guy is defending his country, especially in the cause of a Just War.
Or, the government executes someone like, say, for murdering an abortion doctor after he's found Guilty by a jury of his peers. God allows this.
Murder is the deliberate act of taking someone else's life, with malice aforethought. Cain murdering Abel.

280 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:29:47am

re: #271 Fearless Fred

I guess there are several threads. I had been reading a different one than you. I'm not saying it's okay, but it doesn't have nearly so many whacky hateful comments. Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 11:35:48 AM by Kansas58

Why are you trying to make excuses for them? Right at the very top of that thread we find:

I do not support this, but I do understand this.

Kansas politics has been corrupted to the core by George Tiller, making him like a mobster above the law.

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

...

Whatever “church” Tiller attends must be worshipping satan.

...

Reichstag Fire.

...

jury (of one) nullification

...

Why is the death of a satanic worshipper tragic?

...

He had the goods on Kathleen Sebelius, and that means she was blackmailable. I wonder if they will catch the killer on this one?!

On and on and on.

281 zeebeach  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:29:49am

I haven't had time to read all the comments, but is anyone calling for a 24 hr./48 hr. rule? I'd really like to know what psychopath did this. I'm not ready to blame anyone but the murderer, also, but apparently many others are willing to point fingers elsewhere. Being pro-life does not equate (at all) to being pro-murder.

282 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:29:51am

re: #271 Fearless Fred

Why are you defending the freepers? They are nutballs who are a lead anchor to almost all conservative causes. When someone wants to portray Republicans as wingnuts that's the site of choice.

283 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:30:01am

re: #274 Bubbaman
Wow . . . mind control (now That sounds crazy)

284 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:30:09am

re: #262 idioma

Christianity DOES advocate killing people.

Don't make me open up my Bible to Leviticus or Deuteronomy, there's plenty of advocating murder.

You pick and choose what parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest, because it's convenient to do so in a free country with separation of church and state.

I see your Religion 201 course did not extend to the standard definitions of "New" vs. "Old" Testament, any of the actual teachings of Christ, or any of the tenents of Judaism, or ...

285 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:30:22am

re: #257 VegasRick

Bush and Co. stopped the killing last summer!
/numbnuts

I already said I would have spoke out if I'd read the posts you are talking about, but I did not read them, so what are we discussing ?
Of course I can't prove I was not blogging on KOS when they called Bush a murderer, but rest assured I would have recalled that and spoke out.

286 Teh Flowah  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:31:18am

re: #43 sattv4u2

May I ask a favor for you to consider? With something of this nature, could you please put the term "christian' in quotes as I did. I agree that the perp most likely calls himsoelf one, but NO Christian that I have ever known in my 55 years would consider nor condone such an act (and as backup please see your own #7)

Thanks in advance

lol, the irony of you responding to "/get ready for no true scotsman defense" with this is hilaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarious.

287 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:31:31am

re: #258 capitalist piglet

You're kind of wildly speculating here, it seems.


This isn't "wild" speculation. It's a common sense guess as to the religious motivations of the perp. He didn't come up with these ideas on his own. If you start to google the preachers that are deflecting you'll find they have a history of over the top rhetoric so they're trying to cover their asses. As you can see from the blog comments there is a decent amount of support for this killer among the anti-abortion crowd. Imams do the same thing after a terrorist attack, they deflect and say they are preaching peace.

288 pat  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:32:02am

The moron who did this set his cause back 25 years. The MSM and the pro-abortion people will soon celebrate Dr. Tiller without regard to his, frankly, disturbing practice.

289 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:32:15am

Paging JWF:

Check your comments...

290 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:32:19am

re: #268 rightymouse

Have a nice day.

291 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:32:28am

“Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?"

Hey, I didn't tell anyone to murder the guy!

292 justdanny  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:32:37am

re: #158 sattv4u2

So tilting at windmills is not a waste of time for you, huh?


Hmmmm. I am an atheist. I view 'religion' differently than most people of faith.

293 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:32:46am

re: #276 HoosierHoops

Hey friend..Hope you are well
We are quick to blame the education of children in the ME.. To kill Jewish Children..The most vile things via TV..
So influence via parents, TV and society is fair..
Hell..We could drive south for 2 hours today and be in church handling rattlesnakes...How do think those kids will work out? :)
/Watching NASCAR ....

Not that I agree with that church ... but ... they have now been around for generations. So, you could actually find out.

294 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:32:53am

re: #291 jaunte

“Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?"

Hey, I didn't tell anyone to murder the guy!

Yep, it was at the Cathedral, then as now.

295 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:33:02am

re: #285 avanti

I already said I would have spoke out if I'd read the posts you are talking about, but I did not read them, so what are we discussing ?
Of course I can't prove I was not blogging on KOS when they called Bush a murderer, but rest assured I would have recalled that and spoke out.

I would hope so. I think the BDS on leftie sights was/is still in some cases, fanatical.

296 kansas  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:33:14am

I'm watching Mitt Romney talking to Chris Wallace. Somehow I get the feeling that he should be President.

297 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:34:01am

re: #269 Charles

Those type 'conservatives', celebrating murder, are part of any conservative 'movement'. Moderates, listening to the msm, won't believe that conservatives wish for the murder of people like this Doctor.

298 kansas  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:34:03am

re: #296 kansas

I'm watching Mitt Romney talking to Chris Wallace. Somehow I get the feeling that he should be President.

Sorry bout that. Off topic. I'm gonna go cut the grass. Nice talking with you guys this morning.

299 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:34:10am

re: #294 Guanxi88

Yep, it was at the Cathedral, then as now.

You can see the "channels" made by the pilgrims walking on their knees to the site....pretty wild.

300 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:34:21am

re: #295 VegasRick

I would hope so. I think the BDS on leftie sights was/is still in some cases, fanatical.

No argument there, but the righties are learning fast.

301 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:34:51am

Hannity: political shill
Beck: Alarmist, creep

Neither is an accessory to murder. Without your having an agenda or a rational disconnect somewhere, of course.

302 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:34:55am

re: #274 Bubbaman

I'll tell you where this breaks down and express my issues with Hannity (then I'll go outside, I promise). Hannity, like many of his contemporaries is a gasoline thrower. While he calls attention to significant issues, he rarely proposes solutions that fit within the contextual framework of our legal system. Thus, Hannity's McCarthy'esque style does little more than to rev up the sensibilities of his legions. Those who listen to Hannity's inflammatory rhetoric feel empowered and encumbered by our apparently inept legal system. Thus the Hannityite feels well within his/her dominion to become judge, jury, and executioner.

One can easily walk past a coke machine without purchasing a can, but to the initiated follower, the mind control games that Hannity and others play is very dangerous.

Well said.

303 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:34:58am

It appears that someone has killed; and quess what? he is responsible.
Now wasn't that easy?
Geeesh !

304 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:35:02am

re: #296 kansas

I'm watching Mitt Romney talking to Chris Wallace. Somehow I get the feeling that he should be President.

but ,, But ,, BUT ,, he's must have 7 wives,, and he would have mandated that we ALL have multiple wives ,,, he's like ,,, you know ,,, a (hushed voice) mormon!

/////

305 Bubbaman  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:35:24am

re: #283 spinmore

Wow . . . mind control (now That sounds crazy)

Preview is mi my friend. I meant to say unencumbered. Yes, Hannity, Beck, Pelosi, Obama, etc. use brainwashing techniques. Hope & Change anyone? The problem with these folks and their methods is that they use the inflammatory rhetoric in a way to appeal to an individual so that he/she loses contextual consequence. It's all Hitler 101 in my book.

306 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:35:52am

re: #293 OldLineTexan

Not that I agree with that church ... but ... they have now been around for generations. So, you could actually find out.

Where I grew up, there were a few of them around. I sorta knew one family of 'em - they tended to live in hollows all together and close to their churches - struck me as profoundly decent, deeply spiritual people. What a lot of people miss is that they are practicing an ecstatic and mystical version of Christianity - people who think it's primitive, silly, or funny are mistaken, and would not say the same thing of Dervishes or other ecstatics from other faiths.

307 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:36:03am

Now the commenters at Gateway Pundit are directing their hatred at me.

308 KingKenrod  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:36:08am

re: #296 kansas

I'm watching Mitt Romney talking to Chris Wallace. Somehow I get the feeling that he should be President.

Romney was very impressive. He would have made a much better candidate than McCain.

309 Bubbaman  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:36:15am

re: #296 kansas

He should of been, but the Demoncraps nominated McLame in open primaries.

310 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:36:45am

re: #307 Charles

Now the commenters at Gateway Pundit are directing their hatred at me.

Charles, why do you hate cold-blooded killers?

/

311 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:36:58am

The killer will most likely be caught in short order. Like the late Paul Hill, these guys usually love martyrdom. It would be worse if he chooses the course of Eric Rudolph and manages to stay on the lam for a while, since that might be more likely to inspire imitators.

312 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:37:34am

Gateway Pundit deleted the more extreme comments gloating over the murder, but he's leaving up the comments hating me. Lovely.

313 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:37:36am

re: #307 Charles

Now the commenters at Gateway Pundit are directing their hatred at me.

can't ya just feel the love!?!?!?

314 Bubbaman  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:37:46am

re: #307 Charles

Now the commenters at Gateway Pundit are directing their hatred at me.

No surprises here. Shine a light on a bunch of gnats and they swarm.

315 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:37:48am

re: #311 Shiplord Kirel

The killer will most likely be caught in short order. Like the late Paul Hill, these guys usually love martyrdom. It would be worse if he chooses the course of Eric Rudolph and manages to stay on the lam for a while, since that might be more likely to inspire imitators.

I will vote that he is a coward and will be crying like a baby when they catch him.

316 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:37:55am

re: #301 The Shadow Do

Hannity: political shill
Beck: Alarmist, creep

Neither is an accessory to murder.

Could be debated, and even if they slip by this time, they may be getting pretty close to the line where they would violate statute. And if not accessory, not conspiracy, there's probably some milder clauses like encouraging a breach of the peace in one manner or another. Once the murder happens, previous events are reinterpreted.

317 doppelganglander  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:38:10am

So late to the thread, but I just want to express my revulsion at this crime and the people who approve of it. Sick, sick, sick.

318 kansas  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:38:17am

re: #307 Charles

Now the commenters at Gateway Pundit are directing their hatred at me.

Vampires just hate sunlight. I like this place because there are some here that you can actually have a debate with, and even sometimes see errors in your own thinking, and actually make points to others. Now off to the grass.

319 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:38:26am

Abortion provider George Tiller shot to death at church; police search for suspect

[Link: www.kansas.com...]

320 zombie  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:38:38am

Viligante posse "justice" like this just takes us back to the anarchy of the Wild West.

In a nation of laws, work to change the law -- don't attack the person who does what is legal, even if you disagree with the fact that it's legal.

Amazingly, I'm going to possibly have a post about an almost identical vigiliante theme, but reversed politically - - leftists wreaking vigilante stalker-"justice" on a conservative who has not been charged with any crime.

Look for it later today, if everything goes as I suspect it might.

321 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:38:56am

re: #311 Shiplord Kirel

Well, there's also the possibility that this guy plans an ambush to create a big shootout to go out in a blaze of glory.

322 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:39:10am

re: #309 Bubbaman

He should of been, but the Demoncraps nominated McLame in open primaries.

No, Huckabee, Brownback, Ron Paul and co. brought us McCain instead of Romney. Had they dropped out when they saw their chances were zero Romney would have stood a chance.

323 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:39:14am

re: #310 Desert Dog

Charles, why do you hate cold-blooded killers?

/

Come on DD, that's not the proper nomenclature.

"CHARLES, WHY DO YOU HATE PEOPLE WHO CELEBRATE COLD BLOODED KILLERS?"

FIFY

324 solomonpanting  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:39:22am

re: #288 pat

The moron who did this set his cause back 25 years. The MSM and the pro-abortion people will soon celebrate Dr. Tiller without regard to his, frankly, disturbing practice.

NYU Professor Jacob Appel described Tiller as "a genuine hero who ranks alongside Susan B. Anthony and Martin Luther King Jr. in the pantheon of defenders of human liberty."[17]


Jacob Appel-Bioethicist

Appel has argued in favor of abortion, assisted suicide (not only for the terminally ill, but also for the depressed[11]), and fertility treatment for homosexuals[12]. He has also argued against electronic medical records.[13] He has raised concerns regarding the possiblity that employers will require their employees to use pharmaceuticals for cognitive enhancement[14] and has urged that death row inmates be eligible to receive kidney transplants.[15] He generated considerable controversy for endorsing the mandatory use of preimplantation genetic diagnosis as part of the in vitro fertilization process to prevent the implantation of embryos carrying severe genetic defects.

325 KingKenrod  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:39:27am

re: #314 Bubbaman

No surprises here. Shine a light on a bunch of gnats and they swarm.

I was thinking about a "stick in an hornets nest" but I like your gnat analogy better.

326 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:39:29am

re: #316 itellu3times

Could be debated, and even if they slip by this time, they may be getting pretty close to the line where they would violate statute. And if not accessory, not conspiracy, there's probably some milder clauses like encouraging a breach of the peace in one manner or another. Once the murder happens, previous events are reinterpreted.

That, right there, is one scary ass post.

327 doppelganglander  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:39:29am

re: #321 Killgore Trout

Well, there's also the possibility that this guy plans an ambush to create a big shootout to go out in a blaze of glory.

That seems very likely.

328 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:39:29am

re: #286 Teh Flowah

lol, the irony of you responding to "/get ready for no true scotsman defense" with this is hilaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarious.

:D

329 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:39:42am

re: #319 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Abortion provider George Tiller shot to death at church; police search for suspect

[Link: www.kansas.com...]

ummmm,, Jewels ,,, what do you think we've been discussing for the last 320 posts !?!?!?!?!

////

330 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:39:53am

re: #293 OldLineTexan

Not that I agree with that church ... but ... they have now been around for generations. So, you could actually find out.

LOL
Look if you really had faith you'd walk inside a nuclear Reactor and get all those Zoomies...Now that's faith..
Blessed are those that will not glow at night...
Who shall handle non posionous snake...
Blessed are those that put their God in a Fed-Ex Box...Ship it Overnight to yourself..
Blessed are those that talked the talk but never found a path
/ I'm teasing you guys..I'm watching Nascar and drinking Bud light..Lets hope we don't get a meltdown before:
over/under 347

331 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:40:27am

re: #329 sattv4u2

more information?

332 BARACK THE VOTE  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:41:07am

re: #197 Killgore Trout

Fat chance another one of the preachers who's been targeting him just put out another press release....
Fr. Pavone on Tiller Killing

They're already deflecting.

Now that is breathtaking (literally) in its hypocrisy and ability to spin. I particularly love the way they work in the idea that women who have abortions go crazy and may have killed him.

333 Wild Knight  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:41:29am

re: #307 Charles

Now the commenters at Gateway Pundit are directing their hatred at me.

You're becoming quite the gadfly, Charles. Which is why LGF is the only forum I participate in. The internet is stinking carcass which has unleashed a tsunami of psychoses which is spilling over into the real world and making it a fouler place. From the Apology of Socrates:

"I... am a sort of gadfly, given to the state by God; and the state is a great
and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size,
and requires to be stirred into life. I am that gadfly which God has
attached to the state, and all day long and in all places am always
fastening upon you, arousing and persuading and reproaching you. " (The Jowett Translation).

You're the only one who seeks to stir this filthy cess-pool and to shame the scum that lurks in it. Thanks.

334 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:41:46am

re: #321 Killgore Trout

Well, there's also the possibility that this guy plans an ambush to create a big shootout to go out in a blaze of glory.

I still vote he's a coward and will be whimpering from the time they catch him through the trial and all the way to his new home in prison.

335 DistantThunder  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:41:56am

Jesus did not say: Assassinate your enemy, but rather:

Matthew 5:43-48 (New International Version)

Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

336 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:41:56am

Reminder : 24 hour rule. We don't know who did it, we don't know motive. That's what's also wrong with all of the SoCon blogs out there celebrating a murder.

337 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:42:09am

re: #332 iceweasel

Now that is breathtaking (literally) in its hypocrisy and ability to spin. I particularly love the way they work in the idea that women who have abortions go crazy and may have killed him.

It's like spitting on the corpse; they just can't help themselves. That he's dead is not enough for them; like any fanatic, they have to continue to "punish" their hated enemy.

338 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:42:10am

re: #326 VegasRick

That, right there, is one scary ass post.

Some lady once said "Words have consequences", and she wasn't no left-winger.

339 DistantThunder  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:43:14am

re: #333 Wild Knight

You're becoming quite the gadfly, Charles. Which is why LGF is the only forum I participate in. The internet is stinking carcass which has unleashed a tsunami of psychoses which is spilling over into the real world and making it a fouler place. From the Apology of Socrates:

"I... am a sort of gadfly, given to the state by God; and the state is a great
and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size,
and requires to be stirred into life. I am that gadfly which God has
attached to the state, and all day long and in all places am always
fastening upon you, arousing and persuading and reproaching you. " (The Jowett Translation).

You're the only one who seeks to stir this filthy cess-pool and to shame the scum that lurks in it. Thanks.

Great quote! Updinger!

340 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:43:18am

re: #338 itellu3times

Some lady once said "Words have consequences", and she wasn't no left-winger.

So should they bring Hannity up on charges? What would the charge(s) be?

341 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:43:39am

re: #321 Killgore Trout

Well, there's also the possibility that this guy plans an ambush to create a big shootout to go out in a blaze of glory.

re: #327 doppelganglander

That seems very likely.

Better be careful you two, you might be considered an accomplice or accessory if the asshole does it, just like Hannity and Beck.

342 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:44:00am

It should be noted that Dr. Tiller was killed at the Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita where Tiller was said to be a member of the congregation. The other members would have to have known about Dr. Tiller as well as the reverend. Thus Dr. Tiller was a part of a christian community.

343 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:44:12am

and so it begins

‘Obama committed to ejecting Jews from Judea-Samaria,’ says Abbas
[Link: www.israeltoday.co.il...]

344 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:44:16am

re: #331 Jewels (AKA Julian)

more information?

Thanks, Jewels. The story you posted does indeed provide some new information. Among other things, it now appears that Tiller was shot inside the church. This is pure wickedness.

345 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:44:26am

re: #333 Wild Knight

...........LGF is the only forum I participate in. ................... Thanks.

ditto that

346 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:44:31am

re: #341 VegasRick

Better be careful you two, you might be considered an accomplice or accessory if the asshole does it, just like Hannity and Beck.

I will personally send Killgore a cake with a file in it if that happens.

347 DistantThunder  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:45:03am

re: #312 Charles

Gateway Pundit deleted the more extreme comments gloating over the murder, but he's leaving up the comments hating me. Lovely.

He should be thanking you for critiquing his blog. A critique he obviously agreed with.

348 Flyers1974  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:46:07am

re: #273 Guanxi88

Let's go down the list, shall we?

1) Economic collapse? - In progress.
2) Social and moral decay? - Weimar "outrages" would be PG or PG-13 today.
3) Armed radicals, left and right? - Check, and we can expect a continuation of political violence.

I didn't say we're there. Not yet, but the slide is there. A once great nation, suffering the effects of bearing ALONE the costs of a war, economic downturn, a fragmented culture, moral decline, contempt for the rule of low left, right, and center, and political violence in a time of weak and ineffective governments. We've got a light case of the Weimar flu; give it time.

(1) Some conservatives are claiming an economic collapse is in progress. I don't know if this is the same as an economic collapse actually being in progress.
(2) Haven't people claimed social and moral decay throughout the history of civilization?
(3) No doubt some radicals have guns. How could they not? How many cases of Right v. Left violence have we heard of happening in this country?

I don't know, I think we'll be here ten, twenty years from now still arguing the same topics. Just the names will have changed.

349 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:46:26am

re: #346 Desert Dog

I will personally send Killgore a cake with a file in it if that happens.

German Chocolate, please.

350 spinmore  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:47:19am

re: #326 VegasRick

"scary ass post" . . . now that was funny as hell (LMAO)

351 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:47:45am

re: #340 Desert Dog

So should they bring Hannity up on charges? What would the charge(s) be?

I haven't heard the broadcasts, but I'm sure he's well short of doing anything that should or would be a violation of statute.

But when he puts on certain windbags, he's not doing anybody any favors.

And Randall Terry must come pretty close to the top of that list.

352 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:48:09am

re: #342 Gus 802

Dr. Tiller was a part of a christian community

So was Jim Jones

353 Macker  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:48:23am

re: #309 Bubbaman

He should of been, but the Demoncraps nominated McLame in open primaries.

Hence a major problem with the GOP, which could easily be discussed in another thread.

354 Idle Drifter  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:48:29am

re: #278 itellu3times

In Japan they still have cigarette machines and vending machines with cold beer and warm sake. I loved the hot coffee and tea.

355 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:49:38am

re: #352 sattv4u2

Dr. Tiller was a part of a christian community

So was Jim Jones

My point was to look at the church community that accepted him not the man himself. In other words not to look at the binary of the events.

356 doppelganglander  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:49:42am

re: #346 Desert Dog

I will personally send Killgore a cake with a file in it if that happens.

What about me? I get to rot in prison?

357 neocon hippie  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:49:51am

re: #307 Charles

Joan of Argghh! is a former commenter at LGF, right?

358 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:49:55am

re: #351 itellu3times

I haven't heard the broadcasts, but I'm sure he's well short of doing anything that should or would be a violation of statute.

But when he puts on certain windbags, he's not doing anybody any favors.

And Randall Terry must come pretty close to the top of that list.

And you suggest we.........................?

359 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:50:17am

re: #287 Killgore Trout

This isn't "wild" speculation. It's a common sense guess as to the religious motivations of the perp. He didn't come up with these ideas on his own. If you start to google the preachers that are deflecting you'll find they have a history of over the top rhetoric so they're trying to cover their asses. As you can see from the blog comments there is a decent amount of support for this killer among the anti-abortion crowd. Imams do the same thing after a terrorist attack, they deflect and say they are preaching peace.

Honestly, Killgore, isn't guessing discouraged around here? Don't we wait for facts?

You don't even know who the perp is yet, or whether he was even aware of this priest's viewpoint. Do you really think this priest advocated murder? Do you have evidence of that? (I am almost completely unfamiliar with the who's who of the radical anti-abortion movement.) We don't even know if the perp is a Christian. I understand why people would assume he is, but you're trying to blame some priest for something someone else did, without even having a tangible connection between the two people. Is that reasonable?

I'm not saying you won't turn out to be right - anything is possible, at this point - but how is this better than speculating about other things?

360 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:50:31am

re: #342 Gus 802

re: #352 sattv4u2

Dr. Tiller was a part of a christian community

So was Jim Jones

And Major Applewhite ,,, and David Koresh ,, and ,,,,,,,,,,

361 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:50:37am

re: #262 idioma

Christianity DOES advocate killing people.

Don't make me open up my Bible to Leviticus or Deuteronomy, there's plenty of advocating murder.

You pick and choose what parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest, because it's convenient to do so in a free country with separation of church and state.

As I recall, Christians weren't yet around at the time of Leviticus and Deutoronomy.

362 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:51:00am

re: #356 doppelganglander

What about me? I get to rot in prison?

I'll be there for you on Tuesdays for conjugal visits!

363 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:51:09am

re: #356 doppelganglander

What about me? I get to rot in prison?

I'll send you a cupcake with a razor blade in it.
/

364 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:52:09am

re: #356 doppelganglander

What about me? I get to rot in prison?

we just thought you'd roll over on killgore and get a deal with the DA

365 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:53:08am

re: #69 Charles

The Free Republic thread on this is vile. I can't believe those people exist in this country.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

They've got moderators here at Lucianne .... but the comments look similar to those at Free Republic. I thought Lucianne's moderators were more prudent. Maybe I'm being too sensitive?

366 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:53:14am

re: #351 itellu3times

I haven't heard the broadcasts, but I'm sure he's well short of doing anything that should or would be a violation of statute.

But when he puts on certain windbags, he's not doing anybody any favors.

And Randall Terry must come pretty close to the top of that list.

It will be interesting to see what develops over the next few days and weeks about this. Ultimately, it's the guy that did the act that will be brought to justice. Hannity may or may not have inspired this guy, either way that is almost impossible to prove in court. Sounds like this guy is mentally ill....a normal guy does not walk up and shoot someone like that. Or, he's just a hate-filled POS. I hope he gets the full measure of punishment from the court no matter what.

367 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:53:21am

re: #348 Flyers1974

(1) Some conservatives are claiming an economic collapse is in progress. I don't know if this is the same as an economic collapse actually being in progress.
(2) Haven't people claimed social and moral decay throughout the history of civilization?
(3) No doubt some radicals have guns. How could they not? How many cases of Right v. Left violence have we heard of happening in this country?

I don't know, I think we'll be here ten, twenty years from now still arguing the same topics. Just the names will have changed.

I think the economic catastrophe is well under way. I attribute a good chunk of it to the fact that the US, like Germany after Versailles, has more or less borne the costs of the war alone. The expense is unsustainable, over the long run. (this is not a critique of the war or the decision to go to it; slavery and anarchy would be more expensive; I'm just asking why NOBODY ELSE has kicked in with some cash.)

Social and moral decay is, to an extent, a constant. There are, however, periods of reaction against it. We saw something like this in Weimar, with middle-class, traditional Germans appalled at what was happening to their popular culutre, and completely over-reacting. That such a thing happened then and could happen now is a warning.

Political violence? Also, always with us. But a lot more crazies than previously, and a lot more weapons than previously. Factor in the ability to spontaneously organize via instantaneous communications - the Web, etc. - and the possibility for organized political violence is there. Black Panthers in Philly got a pass, as a recent example, and Eric Rudolph became a folk hero in the Right; the as-yet-unnamed assassin in this case will similarly be hailed as a hero. With the ability to anonymously seek out like-minded whackjobs, the modern Lone Gunman 2.0 is far more dangerous than previous versions. He can organize, gather information, and undergo indoctrination without having to travel or even come above ground and show himself in the real world.

The Lone Wolf is no longer alone; he sees himself as part of a vast underground army; he corresponds with them regularly.

368 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:53:24am

re: #316 itellu3times

Could be debated, and even if they slip by this time, they may be getting pretty close to the line where they would violate statute. And if not accessory, not conspiracy, there's probably some milder clauses like encouraging a breach of the peace in one manner or another. Once the murder happens, previous events are reinterpreted.

Sorry, don't like either one but they can run their mouths all they like so long as they do not openly call for violence or the breaking of law. This is America after all. Knee jerk reactions are just not called for. I do hope and trust that the nutters the perp is presumably associated with are exposed for what they are, but I will not participate in wily-nily villifying or prosecution of individuals who are convicted of being offensive.

And trust my, I would like to villify Beck. I wish folks would wise up to his idiocy. There will be a melt down at some point I think.

369 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:53:54am

re: #356 doppelganglander

What about me? I get to rot in prison?

Sorry, Doppel....we'd hire you a lawyer before the trial....you'd walk!

/

370 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:53:54am

I think I've found one of those 'voices of moderation' on the freeper thread:

"Until such time as anarchy prevails, this is not the right behavior.

Shooting causes more shooting."

This guy's crime was that he just didn't wait for the signal./

371 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:54:21am

re: #297 Fearless Fred

Those type 'conservatives', celebrating murder, are aren't part of any conservative 'movement'. Moderates, listening to the msm, won't believe that conservatives wish for the murder of people like this Doctor.

372 doppelganglander  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:54:35am

re: #362 sattv4u2

I'll be there for you on Tuesdays for conjugal visits!

Sorry, sweetie, I'm happily married. But feel free to swing by for a game of Scrabble or to watch American Idol with me.

373 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:54:39am

re: #363 VegasRick

I'll send you a cupcake with a razor blade in it.
/

to shave her shapely legs ?

374 DistantThunder  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:54:44am

There are often wolves among the flock. Although Mr Tiller may have consider himself a good Christian, I believe, we have no way of judging his intergrity as he may have been acting in full accordance with is conscience - to the degree that his conscience was educated.

Except for natural consequences, I believe that we will each be judged on a sliding scale commensurate with our understand of goodness. The ex-terrorist in the video I posted yesterday said, in essence: My fellow jihadists are for the most part very sincere in their desire to do the will of Allah as they understand it. They are trying to be good people and make sacrifices for their families and country. They have been mis-educated.

375 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:54:59am

re: #358 VegasRick

And you suggest we.........................?

I suggest Hannity show some judgement.

Let's say he has every right to put on nutcases, if he keeps it up at the very least he'll soon be seen as one himself.

376 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:55:03am

re: #361 Dar ul Harb

As I recall, Christians weren't yet around at the time of Leviticus and Deutoronomy.

Yet they still talk about the ten commandments.

377 Cato  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:55:11am

Let's not jump to any conclusions about who the murderer is. I have found that people who are controversial politically generally have tumultuos private lives as well, so the murder may not have been done for political reasons, as much as it looks that way.

The people applauding the murder are seriously deranged.

378 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:55:27am

re: #307 Charles

Now the commenters at Gateway Pundit are directing their hatred at me.

Apparently because you were a bit ahead of the curve on calling out the nuts of the rightwards fringe.

379 MarineMomSue  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:56:40am

re: #83 jaunte

This is why I mention Hannity. He allowed Randall Terry on his show to speak without any balanced opposition during the recent story about Obama speaking at Notre Dame. In the past, Terry has stated "If you believe abortion is murder, you have to act like it's murder." This is a direct result of that kind of 'activism.'

re: #83 jaunte

Interesting comment. Especially in light of the quote you have posted with your nic... "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."

380 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:56:53am

re: #366 Desert Dog

It will be interesting to see what develops over the next few days and weeks about this. Ultimately, it's the guy that did the act that will be brought to justice. Hannity may or may not have inspired this guy, either way that is almost impossible to prove in court. Sounds like this guy is mentally ill....a normal guy does not walk up and shoot someone like that. Or, he's just a hate-filled POS. I hope he gets the full measure of punishment from the court no matter what.

There's an excellent chance the guy will never have heard Hannity in his life.

As to what constitutes mental illness, that's a whole other discussion.

381 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:57:30am

re: #16 MandyManners

Could be a stolen plate.

That would take how many minutes to verify?

382 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:57:59am

re: #375 itellu3times

I suggest Hannity show some judgement.

Let's say he has every right to put on nutcases, if he keeps it up at the very least he'll soon be seen as one himself.

I know what you are saying and kinda agree but that is a slippery slope my friend. Very slippery.

383 doppelganglander  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:57:59am

re: #363 VegasRick

I'll send you a cupcake with a razor blade in it.
/

Excellent! I can hide it in my hair, chola-style. Meanwhile, I get Occasional Reader or lawhawk to help me make a deal to give up Killgore. When that's all done, I'm going to sign with a publisher for a tell-all book about what really happens underneath Denver Airport. Cha-ching!

384 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:58:35am

re: #379 MarineMomSue

Apparently I've told some people things they don't want to hear. I still think giving extremists an unbalanced platform to disseminate their views is irresponsible.

385 Opilio  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:58:35am

No Phil. no more:

Phil.

Karma: -169

This user is blocked.

Registered since: Aug 22, 2004 at 3:08 pm
No. of comments posted: 352
No. of links posted: 0

386 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:58:49am

Gloomy thread, gloomy weather here in LA, who ordered all this June Gloom, May Gray stuff?

387 Dianna  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:58:53am

re: #381 Naso Tang

That would take how many minutes to verify?

I'm afraid that would depend on a lot of circumstances, up to and including if the owner of the plates was on vacation or something.

Stealing a vanity plate would be a very clever thing to do, if you were planning murder. It would distract people nicely.

388 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:59:14am

re: #385 Opilio

what was the straw that broke the camel's back ?

389 Macker  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:59:19am

re: #385 Opilio

I wonder when Phil went bye-bye.....

390 doppelganglander  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:59:27am

re: #373 sattv4u2

to shave her shapely legs ?

This is getting weird...you don't know where I live, do you?

391 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:59:29am

Memo to Obama attack dog Robert Gibbs: stop pooping on our lawn

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]

392 Macker  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:59:55am

re: #388 Shug

what was the straw that broke the camel's back ?

Are you callin' Stinky a camel?

/snicker

393 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:00:02pm

re: #382 VegasRick

I know what you are saying and kinda agree but that is a slippery slope my friend. Very slippery.

Thank you for understanding.

It is a slippery slope, and my point is, Hannity (and we all) need to watch our feet - and when someone pulls a trigger, we all get a little push.

394 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:00:19pm

re: #379 MarineMomSue

re: #83 jaunte

Interesting comment. Especially in light of the quote you have posted with your nic... "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."

Interesting comment, especially in light of the fact that you seem to have heard something you didn't like.

395 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:00:22pm

re: #386 itellu3times

Gloomy thread, gloomy weather here in LA, who ordered all this June Gloom, May Gray stuff?

Isn't that a blessing in LA at this time of year?

396 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:00:30pm

re: #383 doppelganglander

Excellent! I can hide it in my hair, chola-style. Meanwhile, I get Occasional Reader or lawhawk to help me make a deal to give up Killgore. When that's all done, I'm going to sign with a publisher for a tell-all book about what really happens underneath Denver Airport. Cha-ching!

May I help?

397 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:00:58pm

re: #280 Charles

...
He had the goods on Kathleen Sebelius, and that means she was blackmailable. I wonder if they will catch the killer on this one?!

On and on and on.

Turn out it's none other than the John Birch Society's New American that is stirring up the alleged Kathleen Sibelius connection cited by certain Freepers.

398 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:01:23pm

re: #352 sattv4u2

Dr. Tiller was a part of a christian community

So was Jim Jones

Well, actually not.

Until I happened to read up on it recently, I hadn't really appreciated how Marxist an organization Jones' "People's Temple" actually was. I was either too young to understand at the time, or the media didn't report that aspect of it.

399 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:01:28pm

re: #383 doppelganglander

Excellent! I can hide it in my hair, chola-style. Meanwhile, I get Occasional Reader or lawhawk to help me make a deal to give up Killgore. When that's all done, I'm going to sign with a publisher for a tell-all book about what really happens underneath Denver Airport. Cha-ching!

Just remember all of us little people once you cash in.

400 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:02:21pm

re: #397 Shiplord Kirel

That figures

401 idioma  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:02:30pm

re: #272 kansas

Look, I'm not a Biblical scholar, but I do know that Leviticus and Deuteronomy were in the old testament before Christ was born, therefore before Christianity.

If the old testament doesn't count, why do Christians refer to it at all? Why not have a "Christian Bible" composed only of the New Testament (the Jesus parts)?

You know what Jesus said about homosexuality?

Jesus said: "..."

Nadda

Zilch

And what do you suppose a "Christian Stance" on homosexuality is based on? Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

So which is it? Christians are either neutral on the issue of gays (just like Jesus) or they pick and choose the parts of the Old Testament they need to persecute, and even kill those they don't find favorable.

402 ladycatnip  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:02:48pm

#262 Idioma

Christianity DOES advocate killing people.

Don't make me open up my Bible to Leviticus or Deuteronomy, there's plenty of advocating murder.

You pick and choose what parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest, because it's convenient to do so in a free country with separation of church and state.

That is a blatant, outright lie. Christianity does no such thing and neither does Judaism. I've never heard any of my pastors speak about advocating murder. The OT is all about the history of the Israelites when God was their judge - neither Jew nor Christian have advocated using the OT for the last couple thousand years; there have been sick and twisted versions over the millennia such as puritanism and the Inquisition. Thankfully both were short lived in comparison to the historical timeline.

When was the last time you heard of the Jews stoning someone for adultery? Jesus actually put a stop to that when He told the woman caught in adultery that He doesn't accuse her, but to go and sin no more.

403 DistantThunder  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:02:48pm

re: #366 Desert Dog

It will be interesting to see what develops over the next few days and weeks about this. Ultimately, it's the guy that did the act that will be brought to justice. Hannity may or may not have inspired this guy, either way that is almost impossible to prove in court. Sounds like this guy is mentally ill....a normal guy does not walk up and shoot someone like that. Or, he's just a hate-filled POS. I hope he gets the full measure of punishment from the court no matter what.

Didn't Charles Manson say he got his inspiration from Helter Skelter? Didn't Mark David Chapman get his inspiration from Catcher in the Rye? I found this on wikipedia:

At some point, Chapman became obsessed with Catcher in the Rye after rereading it for the first time since high school. He was particularly influenced by protagonist Holden Caulfield's polemics against "phoniness" in society, and the need to protect people, especially children. He was holding a copy of the book when he murdered Lennon, in which he had written "This is my statement." After his arrest, he wrote a letter to the media urging everyone to read the "extraordinary book" that may "help many to understand what has happened."[42] When asked if he wanted to address the court at his sentencing, Chapman read a passage from Catcher in the Rye that describes Holden Caulfield's fantasy of being on the edge of a cliff and having to catch all children from falling. A psychiatrist at the sentencing, Daniel W. Schwartz, said that Chapman wanted to kill Lennon because he viewed him as a "phony." Chapman later said that he thought the murder would turn him into a Holden Caulfield, a "quasi-savior" and "guardian angel."
404 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:02:52pm

re: #240 BigPapa

What, no flameout? No repeated posts insulting the admins/owners saying how crappy it is and how you want your account deleted?

BO-RING.

Well, I am just waiting for them to put up a thread bashing Charles and LGF, then I can go out in a blaze of glory instead of just being a pissy drama queen.

405 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:03:12pm

re: #401 idioma

If the old testament doesn't count, why do Christians refer to it at all? Why not have a "Christian Bible" composed only of the New Testament (the Jesus parts)?

You know what Jesus said about homosexuality?

Jesus said: "..."

Nadda

Zilch

And what do you suppose a "Christian Stance" on homosexuality is based on? Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

So which is it? Christians are either neutral on the issue of gays (just like Jesus) or they pick and choose the parts of the Old Testament they need to persecute, and even kill those they don't find favorable.

yes

406 smoot  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:03:15pm

A lot of religious violence has to do with how people interpret texts. If you want to get technical, sure, all religions call for or condone violence against others. If you ask me, the Jews' persecution of the Moabites in Canaan is the greatest threat to world peace today. Just wait til the folks at the UN get ahold of some pens and paper, Jews.

Seriously, many Jewish commentators say that the seven native tribes of the land were given the choice to accept the 7 Noahide laws. Even if this is a revisionist attempt to make Jews seem less violent, what does this tell us? Much of it lies in the attitude of the religion. This is not the best example though because Judaism does not contain much damning condemnation of others.

A better example is the attitudes of Christianity and Islam toward the Jews. During the Middle Ages, it was far better to be a Jew in a Muslim land than in a Christian one. One reason cited for this is that Christian texts make damning comments about Jews that are sweeping and general in nature, while Islam's derogatory comments about Jews and Christians apply only to a certain group of J's and C's at a certain time. But things have changed. Christianity has modernized, best exemplified by the 2nd Vatican Council and a recent change in Catholic doctrine that now holds that Jews can actually get into heaven, are not damned to hell, and are not responsible for Jesus's death. (Certain Catholics such as Mel Gibson reject the 2nd Vatican Council--what does that mean for the "fucking Jews"?) Interestingly, the Quran exonerates the Jews of deicide, but some Hadiths do blame them. The problem is the form of authoritarian Islam that has taken hold in the past century or so (probably in response to modernity) that takes the violent Jihadist texts literally. Simply put, most of the Muslim world needs to grow up. This is true of Jews and Christians, but nearly to the same extent.

407 doppelganglander  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:03:29pm

re: #396 VegasRick

May I help?

You're also a lawyer? Sounds like I'll have a real dream team. Or is this more about sticking it to KT?

408 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:04:34pm

re: #397 Shiplord Kirel

Turn out it's none other than the John Birch Society's New American that is stirring up the alleged Kathleen Sibelius connection cited by certain Freepers.

Let's see what Mr. Dylan has to say about it:

Youtube Video

Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues

409 Fenway_Nation  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:04:39pm

re: #398 Dar ul Harb

Wasn't Harvey Milk a regular visitor to Jim Jones' temple when it was in San Francisco?

410 Opilio  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:05:14pm

re: #388 Shug

what was the straw that broke the camel's back ?

I think his swan song was on last night's "Cutting off criticism" thread. No specific post (AFAIK). He went out not with a bang, but a whimper.

411 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:05:31pm

re: #387 Dianna

I'm afraid that would depend on a lot of circumstances, up to and including if the owner of the plates was on vacation or something.

Stealing a vanity plate would be a very clever thing to do, if you were planning murder. It would distract people nicely.

That is conceivable of course, but at the same time it is obviously the primary solid lead and a statement on whether or not the owner was on vacation, or was a white male, 6'1" and 200 lbs, or both, would seem to be something that could have been commented on by the police by now. Perhaps they have and Google news is slow..

412 idioma  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:06:11pm

re: #361 Dar ul Harb

As I recall, Christians weren't yet around at the time of Leviticus and Deutoronomy.

So Christians just throw out that part of the bible then? I mean, it's a bunch of crazy stories about young-earth creation and great floods, talking snakes and such. Just silly stuff that Christians could throw out the window, right?

Give me a break!

Christians use the old testament when convenient and ignore it when it's an embarrassment.

413 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:06:15pm

re: #385 Opilio

No Phil. no more:

I can only put up with so many dramatic flounce-off comments combined with insults, before I take people at their word and assume their LGF account isn't valuable to them any more.

414 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:06:29pm

re: #401 idioma

Then there's the ten commandments as well. Christians deny or affirm their connection with the old Testament on a cherry picking basis.

415 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:06:38pm

re: #410 Opilio

I think his swan song was on last night's "Cutting off criticism" thread. No specific post (AFAIK). He went out not with a bang, but a whimper.


I see that he currently owns all ten BOTTON ten comments.

Can't remember seeing that any time recent

416 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:07:22pm

re: #409 Fenway_Nation

Wasn't Harvey Milk a regular visitor to Jim Jones' temple when it was in San Francisco?

Dunno. Ask zombie, who seems to know much of the history of the area.

417 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:08:01pm

re: #398 Dar ul Harb

Well, actually not.

Until I happened to read up on it recently, I hadn't really appreciated how Marxist an organization Jones' "People's Temple" actually was. I was either too young to understand at the time, or the media didn't report that aspect of it.

My point was they called themselves 'christian churches" I know very well that jones in particular wanted a marxist ustopia

418 Wendya  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:08:07pm

re: #398 Dar ul Harb

I was either too young to understand at the time, or the media didn't report that aspect of it.

The media did report it but as time has passed, they seem to have forgotten that particular aspect.

419 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:08:13pm

re: #359 capitalist piglet

Honestly, Killgore, isn't guessing discouraged around here? Don't we wait for facts?


We speculate and hypothesize around here all the time. If this was a bomb set off at a synagogue we'd all be trying to figure out the motivations behind it. Anti-abortion extremists aren't exempt from this. I don't see why they should be.

420 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:08:55pm

re: #412 idioma

The point being that the poster was holding Christians responsible for the content of the Old testament, which was written centuries earlier.

421 Idle Drifter  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:09:18pm

re: #383 doppelganglander

Which by the time the authorities knock down the door they'll only find an empty void that once was filled with treasure, secrete labs, and test subjects.

422 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:09:45pm

re: #352 sattv4u2

Dr. Tiller was a part of a christian community

So was Jim Jones

Nominally at least but the Reformation Lutheran Church doesn't seem much like the People's Temple. At least they haven't assassinated any Congressmen yet, and I don't think a mass suicide is likely.

423 pat  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:10:23pm

If we waited for 'facts', there would be no discussion at all. lol

424 Wendya  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:10:31pm

re: #409 Fenway_Nation

Wasn't Harvey Milk a regular visitor to Jim Jones' temple when it was in San Francisco?

He was a supporter.

Image: milk.jpg

425 jvic  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:10:36pm

re: #109 MandyManners

re: #102 Charles

There are an awful lot of people who call themselves Christians at Free Republic, having a party over this murder.

They need to log off and pick up their Bibles.

I'm not a Christian, but I've seen enough scripture to google this:

Romans 12:19 (King James Version)

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

and this:

Deuteronomy 32:35 (King James Version)

35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

426 Dianna  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:10:55pm

re: #411 Naso Tang

That is conceivable of course, but at the same time it is obviously the primary solid lead and a statement on whether or not the owner was on vacation, or was a white male, 6'1" and 200 lbs, or both, would seem to be something that could have been commented on by the police by now. Perhaps they have and Google news is slow..

I think the police aren't going to say much they don't have to. Really, there is nothing that would make more of a mess of their investigation than a bunch of amateurs getting under their feet.

They took almost a whole hour to release the information about the plates and the description. The police want to be very sure of what they're doing in this, and I think that's the right way to handle it.

427 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:11:15pm

re: #419 Killgore Trout

We speculate and hypothesize around here all the time. If this was a bomb set off at a synagogue we'd all be trying to figure out the motivations behind it. Anti-abortion extremists aren't exempt from this. I don't see why they should be.


I'm always too quick to blame the Amish.
I should dial it down a notch

428 DistantThunder  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:11:46pm

I just taught the entire New Testament this year to high schoolers. Five mornings a week at 6am. Maybe I was too sleepy and missed the part about killing non-Christians. s/

Actually, when Christ said, "Love your neighbor." Someone asked him, "Lord who is my neighbor? That's when Jesus taught the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Jesus made the hero of the story the Samaritan who was of a different faith than all the other characters. The point being, Goodness is not the faith label of the person, but the acts associated with that person.

This is the opposite of kill the unbeliever.

429 idioma  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:12:22pm

re: #270 Alouette

There is no advocating of murder in Leviticus or Deuteronomy. There are many listings of capital crimes, which today are not prosecuted.

You're reducing "murder" to semantics? If you were at the business end of a pistol because a christian didn't like what you do for a living would it really matter if he/she considered it a "capital crime"?

Why are you defending this? Why do you defend the violence and hypocrisy of religion? Christian, Musilm, Jewish, or Potato; killing someone because you do not agree with them IS WRONG.

And such insanity has no place in the 21st century, we should not tolerate it just because of affiliation.

If you find yourself defending a group you belong to because they commit acts of hate and violence, you NEED to have the courage to leave. You are not required to enable anyone - ever.

430 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:12:27pm

Here's a history in news stories of the Kline vs. Tiller feud that preceded this. The voters replaced Kline as AG, and Tiller was found Not Guilty.

[Link: news.google.com...]

431 MacDuff  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:14:15pm

re: #370 Jimmah

I think I've found one of those 'voices of moderation' on the freeper thread:

"Until such time as anarchy prevails, this is not the right behavior.

Shooting causes more shooting."

This guy's crime was that he just didn't wait for the signal./

I've long thought that the anonymity that forums provide allows some people's "inner psycho" to be released. They feel they can say anything with impunity, and I think we've seen examples of that here over the years.

Speech is power and anonymous speech can oft be incredibly destructive and violently provocative.

Personally, I've made it a point to never make myself totally anonymous; it keeps me honest. I understand that job considerations and such may make that impractical for some and that's a valid consideration. Still, the anonymity is something I find troubling.

432 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:15:24pm

re: #402 ladycatnip

#262 Idioma

That is a blatant, outright lie. Christianity does no such thing and neither does Judaism.



The old testament advocates killing those who work on the sabbath. If a religious community were to carry this out, it would be murder.

433 ladycatnip  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:15:30pm

#429 Idioma

I was going to post a reply, but thought the better of it then clicked your football instead. Judging by your number of posts and down-dings you're just a rabble-rouser, trouble-maker, stir-it-up kinda poster.

Love the Proverb that says not to answer a fool according to his folly - or something like that.

434 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:16:10pm

re: #401 idioma

More interesting is Jesus' and the early Christians' view of slavery.

435 Steffan  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:16:58pm

re: #12 sattv4u2

Does Kansas still have the death penalty?

This is a case where the gene pool needs a hefty dose of chlorine.

436 Annar  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:17:16pm

re: #211 Bubbaman

While that is true, I hope that unlike the supposed "silent" Muslim majority who eschew violence, the majority of Christian Americans will be vociferous both in word and deed in opposition to this horrific terroristic crime.

While it is probably true that the 'brand name' christian churches (Catholic, Lutheran etc.), as well as the vast majority of their adherents, abhor such acts, many of the so-called evangelical cultists believe in the individual interpretation of scripture which can lead to the justification of almost anything.

It would be very surprising if the guilty party is an atheist or an agnostic.

437 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:17:26pm
438 danrudy  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:18:19pm

re: #419 Killgore Trout

We speculate and hypothesize around here all the time. If this was a bomb set off at a synagogue we'd all be trying to figure out the motivations behind it. Anti-abortion extremists aren't exempt from this. I don't see why they should be.


Please clarify for me....
I am assuming ou meant "we would not be trying to figure out the motivations" since we would presumptively know.
We assume when a bomb goes off in a synagogue it was done by someone who hates jews and wants to kill as many as possible (for virigins? glory? save innocent arab lives from the murderous jews?).

When an abortion doctor gets killed what are you assuming the motivations of the anti-abortionist extermist killer are?

439 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:18:54pm

re: #431 MacDuff

Aye, that's the rub, as they say.

440 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:19:05pm

re: #429 idioma

You're reducing "murder" to semantics? If you were at the business end of a pistol because a christian didn't like what you do for a living would it really matter if he/she considered it a "capital crime"?

Why are you defending this? Why do you defend the violence and hypocrisy of religion? Christian, Musilm, Jewish, or Potato; killing someone because you do not agree with them IS WRONG.

And such insanity has no place in the 21st century, we should not tolerate it just because of affiliation.

If you find yourself defending a group you belong to because they commit acts of hate and violence, you NEED to have the courage to leave. You are not required to enable anyone - ever.

I never said that it is OK to murder somebody you don't agree with. Just where did you get that from my post?

What I did say is that Leviticus and Deuteronomy are books of laws that G-D commanded the Israelites. How you travel from there to the conclusion that "I defend people who commit acts of hate and violence."

Your post sounds like you are the one with tolerance issues, not me.

441 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:19:25pm

re: #435 Steffan

Does Kansas still have the death penalty?

This is a case where the gene pool needs a hefty dose of chlorine.

States With and Without the Death Penalty

442 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:19:39pm

OT:check out the AIPCS job site. it's pure gold

[Link: www.aipcs.org...]

443 MacDuff  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:20:09pm

re: #437 restitutor orbis

So, what part of MURDER don't you understand?

444 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:20:40pm

re: #406 smoot

A better example is the attitudes of Christianity and Islam toward the Jews. During the Middle Ages, it was far better to be a Jew in a Muslim land than in a Christian one.

That's way overbroad.

Plenty of Jews massacred in both regimes. I wouldn't want to guess who killed more, would you?

That Islam promised Jews could be second-class citizens was about the best they ever offered, between massacres, and if this is better than Jews got in large parts of Europe between, say, 800 and 1600 or so, well, it's not much to celebrate, in my opinion.

445 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:21:03pm

Stinky - Cleanup on Aisle 437. Troll vomit.

446 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:21:22pm

re: #437 restitutor orbis

Piece of shit.

447 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:22:54pm

re: #414 Jimmah

Then there's the ten commandments as well. Christians deny or affirm their connection with the old Testament on a cherry picking basis.

But this is actually a compliment to Christians if we take it that it is not really "cherry picking" but the ability (of most) to distinguish between literalism and symbolism. That is not something that Muslims have learned, for example.

448 callahan23  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:23:56pm

re: #437 restitutor orbis

I was just about to post something in the line of civility and humane behavior of the Lizards here on LGF compared to other sites.
And along comes your comment.
That moment is definitely lost for a few moments.

449 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:24:05pm

re: #419 Killgore Trout

We speculate and hypothesize around here all the time. If this was a bomb set off at a synagogue we'd all be trying to figure out the motivations behind it. Anti-abortion extremists aren't exempt from this. I don't see why they should be.

Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

If you're determined to connect some specific priest to a perp whose identity you don't even know yet, I obviously can't stop you - so have fun.

450 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:24:06pm

re: #395 Jimmah

Isn't that a blessing in LA at this time of year?

June Gloom is typical of the season, but it's better when it burns off by noon! I'm just a couple of miles inland and there's no sign of clearing here, I didn't even realize how late it was getting.

Supposed to get a little better for a few days and then worse, which would be remarkable.

451 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:24:22pm

re: #433 ladycatnip

#429 Idioma

I was going to post a reply, but thought the better of it then clicked your football instead. Judging by your number of posts and down-dings you're just a rabble-rouser, trouble-maker, stir-it-up kinda poster.

Love the Proverb that says not to answer a fool according to his folly - or something like that.

I think he made a reasonable post. You should reply to it properly.

452 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:24:48pm

re: #442 Jewels (AKA Julian)

OT:check out the AIPCS job site. it's pure gold

[Link: www.aipcs.org...]

Multi-cultural specialists, ultra liberal zealots, and college-tainted oppression liberators
need not apply.

Wow, where do I sign up?

453 Irenicum  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:25:20pm

re: #307 Charles

Do you have a secret, invisible target on your back that only crazy people can see? Sheesh, they need to get a life. BTW, thanks for doing this work. I can't imagine it being easy for you, but I (and many others) deeply appreciate your doing the investigative work of pointing out that there still are dangerous people, both here and abroad, and on both the extreme left as well as the extreme right. Since we live in such unstable times, it's all too easy to give ourselves over to a Manichean duality that sees the world as simply "us" versus "them". Your regular posts show that it's otherwise. Keep doing the good work!

454 justdanny  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:25:36pm

Man, impossible to keep up with everything written on this thread. I guess it always is. In facebook I can hide certain posters. LGF and facebook are different, I know. Whole other monkey.

455 ladycatnip  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:26:18pm

#432 Jimmah

The old testament advocates killing those who work on the sabbath. If a religious community were to carry this out, it would be murder.

As I said in an earlier post, name ONE instance when a Jew or Christian have been put to death for doing that in the last 2000 years. It's the history of the children of Israel, and we Christians do not cherry-pick - we read it along with the NT.

Jimmah, please do not include yourself with the likes of Idioma who purposefully trashes Christianity/Jews. From your posts and karma, you are a thoughtful poster and I respect you for that. But to use the example of some wacko nut killing Dr. Tiller as an excuse to paint all Christianity with this broad bush and trash the Bible is just wrong. If you doubt me, then read my #99 post upthread.

456 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:26:37pm

re: #449 capitalist piglet

Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

If you're determined to connect some specific priest to a perp whose identity you don't even know yet every Tea Party with Paulians & white supremacists, I obviously can't stop you - so have fun.

/

457 Annar  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:26:54pm

re: #420 Dar ul Harb

The point being that the poster was holding Christians responsible for the content of the Old testament, which was written centuries earlier.

Wasn't all this holy blathering inspired by the same god? Did not the son rebuke the father with respect to the punishment for some sins? Death for the disobedient child, death for those that don't respect the sabbath etc.

458 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:26:59pm

Latest Update:

Eyewitness News has confirmed the suspect in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller is in custody in the Kansas City area. Wichita police say the man was arrested near Gardner, KS at around 2:00 Sunday afternoon.

Wichita Police are hosting a news conference on the shooting at 4:00 pm today. Look for live coverage here.

Stay with Eyewitness News for further updates.

[Link: www.kwch.com...]

459 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:27:23pm

re: #452 Desert Dog

no kidding. looks like the Amerinds have twigged to the fact that the listed on thier page are worse than useless and want people to teach them real skills on how to get ahead

460 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:27:49pm

re: #458 Gus 802

Latest Update:

Eyewitness News has confirmed the suspect in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller is in custody in the Kansas City area. Wichita police say the man was arrested near Gardner, KS at around 2:00 Sunday afternoon.

Wichita Police are hosting a news conference on the shooting at 4:00 pm today. Look for live coverage here.

Stay with Eyewitness News for further updates.

[Link: www.kwch.com...]

Good news

461 semrocks  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:28:18pm

This is outrageous. Whoever did this is no Christian, if they do consider themselves one.

I'm pro-life, and I know that our side will be branded because of this, which is completely ridiculous. I don't hold William Ayers and the Weather Underground's actions against those who consider themselves liberal, and would expect the same treatment from anyone with a rational mind. Unfortunately, rational minds seem to be in short supply anymore...

462 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:28:50pm

re: #451 Jimmah

I think he made a reasonable post. You should reply to it properly.

Because Idioma's (#429) post included:

Why do you defend the violence and hypocrisy of religion?

This doesn't read like it is criticizing violence or hypocrisy, it sounds like it's criticizing religion, all religions, and all the people who find value in religion.

It's not a good start to a reasonble discussion.

463 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:29:14pm

re: #460 Desert Dog

Good news

Big time. The cretin could have killed others at that church.

464 DistantThunder  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:29:20pm

While the the average, healthy person can understand and tolerate multiple points of view, mentally ill people have a very difficult time. My sister-in-law says: "I only believe it if I read it in the New York Times." and she's pro-choice, anti-Bush, etc. I understand why she thinks that way, it bugs, me, but I can tolerate her views without becoming unhinged.

People who are mentally fragile cannot hold these world views simultaneously for inspection and tolerate the cognitive dissonance. Just contemplating the ideas, and arguments create such enormous internal conflict and pain that, under certain circumstances, they seek relief in very extreme ways: murder, suicide, self-mutiliation, extreme drug use, etc. It's painfully intolerable for them to accept the existance of the "other" idea or act. In this case, abortion.

And then there are triggers: The trigger is the actual event that preceeded the unfolding of the crime. The trigger is not usually information like pro-gun information, or anti-abortion information - either in book form or in a speech. In the case of the guy in Pittsburg who killed the cops, the cascade began when his mother confronted him about the dog urinating, and he became a abusive, and she said she was calling the cops. Her threat to call the cops seems to have been the trigger. I don't think he woke up in the morning and said: Today's the day.

It will be interesting to uncover the trigger related to this murderer.

465 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:29:39pm

re: #458 Gus 802

Good news. It seems he was apprehended without more bloodshed.

466 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:29:55pm

re: #458 Gus 802

Latest Update:

Eyewitness News has confirmed the suspect in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller is in custody in the Kansas City area. Wichita police say the man was arrested near Gardner, KS at around 2:00 Sunday afternoon.

Wichita Police are hosting a news conference on the shooting at 4:00 pm today. Look for live coverage here.

Stay with Eyewitness News for further updates.

[Link: www.kwch.com...]

I hope this is the guy they want for this. I hate the thought of an armed killer on the loose. Hat tip to the boys in blue for grabbing him.

467 justdanny  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:30:06pm

re: #458 Gus 802
Good news. Thank you.

468 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:30:07pm

re: #447 Naso Tang

But this is actually a compliment to Christians if we take it that it is not really "cherry picking" but the ability (of most) to distinguish between literalism and symbolism. That is not something that Muslims have learned, for example.

I think it's a good thing that people of the Abrahamic religions cherry pick, don't get me wrong. The more they cherry pick, the safer we all are, generally speaking. And yes, Muslims need to do more cherry picking - sorry, 'distinguishing between symbolism and literalism'.

469 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:30:20pm

re: #457 Annar

Don't mistake me for a Biblical literalist, by the way.

(Right-wing Unitarian actually.)

470 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:30:23pm

Suspect in custody in KC area

[Link: www.kwch.com...]

471 zombie  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:30:28pm

re: #409 Fenway_Nation

Wasn't Harvey Milk a regular visitor to Jim Jones' temple when it was in San Francisco?

re: #416 Dar ul Harb

Dunno. Ask zombie, who seems to know much of the history of the area.

A lot of top Democratic politicians hobnobbed with Jim Jones. Even the First Lady Rosalynn Carter flew in from the White House to visit Jim Jones' temple in San Francisco, as did many other leading Democratic politicians. I wouldn't be surprised if Harvey Milk was one of them.

(Why would they meet with and praise Jim Jones, you might asK? Because before 1978, Jim Jones was a top Democratic "community organizer" and delivered a lot of votes and donations to the Democratic Party, through his activism in inner-city communities. He was not yet known as a crazy cult leader. Just thought of as a radical but well-intentioned preacher.)

472 Flyers1974  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:30:40pm

re: #367 Guanxi88

Well some people agree with your thoughts, I can't deny that, including my own brother who was saying much the same to me this very weekend. Well, if it really does happen, I'll have two people telling me "I told you so," one at LGF and one at home.

473 danrudy  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:31:11pm

re: #463 Gus 802

Big time. The cretin could have killed others at that church.

he should have commited even more murder?
Nice sentiment.

474 zombie  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:31:20pm

re: #470 Thanos

Suspect in custody in KC area

[Link: www.kwch.com...]


That was fast!

475 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:31:34pm
Wichita residents are planning to mourn the death of Dr. George Tiller, as well as remember his triumphs, at Old Town Square tonight at 8pm. Although some in attendance may bring signs, the vigil is intended to be a peaceful gathering to show support for Tiller's family and friends.
476 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:32:06pm

re: #464 DistantThunder

While the the average, healthy person can understand and tolerate multiple points of view, mentally ill people have a very difficult time. My sister-in-law says: "I only believe it if I read it in the New York Times." and she's pro-choice, anti-Bush, etc. I understand why she thinks that way, it bugs, me, but I can tolerate her views without becoming unhinged.

People who are mentally fragile cannot hold these world views simultaneously for inspection and tolerate the cognitive dissonance. Just contemplating the ideas, and arguments create such enormous internal conflict and pain that, under certain circumstances, they seek relief in very extreme ways: murder, suicide, self-mutiliation, extreme drug use, etc. It's painfully intolerable for them to accept the existance of the "other" idea or act. In this case, abortion.

And then there are triggers: The trigger is the actual event that preceeded the unfolding of the crime. The trigger is not usually information like pro-gun information, or anti-abortion information - either in book form or in a speech. In the case of the guy in Pittsburg who killed the cops, the cascade began when his mother confronted him about the dog urinating, and he became a abusive, and she said she was calling the cops. Her threat to call the cops seems to have been the trigger. I don't think he woke up in the morning and said: Today's the day.

It will be interesting to uncover the trigger related to this murderer.

Excellent, I feel educated now. After reading that I feel as though I just watched an episode of Criminal Minds. One of the few decent shows on TV.

477 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:32:17pm

re: #472 Flyers1974

Well some people agree with your thoughts, I can't deny that, including my own brother who was saying much the same to me this very weekend. Well, if it really does happen, I'll have two people telling me "I told you so," one at LGF and one at home.

If I'm wrong, trust me, I'll be happier about it than you could imagine. I'd love to leave my children a nation at least as free, prosperous, and decent as the one in which I grew up.

478 danrudy  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:32:24pm

re: #463 Gus 802

Big time. The cretin could have killed others at that church.


My apologies...I misread...I thought you said "should" instead of "could"

I retract.

479 DistantThunder  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:32:31pm

re: #434 Dar ul Harb

More interesting is Jesus' and the early Christians' view of slavery.

I've always understood it to be a strategy to avoiding taking on the entire Roman Empire and causing a slave rebellion. Instead he sought to change individual hearts which did lead to change in the system.

480 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:32:40pm

And outside a House of Worship. Terrible. I wonder how many children were there and had to see that.

481 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:32:49pm

re: #471 zombie

A lot of top Democratic politicians hobnobbed with Jim Jones. Even the First Lady Rosalynn Carter flew in from the White House to visit Jim Jones' temple in San Francisco, as did many other leading Democratic politicians. I wouldn't be surprised if Harvey Milk was one of them.

(Why would they meet with and praise Jim Jones, you might asK? Because before 1978, Jim Jones was a top Democratic "community organizer" and delivered a lot of votes and donations to the Democratic Party, through his activism in inner-city communities. He was not yet known as a crazy cult leader. Just thought of as a radical but well-intentioned preacher.)

He was extremely charismatic and charming. Unfortunately, he was also extremely psychotic. IIRC, his church was held up as an example of how churches and the communities work together to solve problems.

482 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:32:57pm

re: #478 danrudy

My apologies...I misread...I thought you said "should" instead of "could"

I retract.

OK I was just about to type a response. ;)

483 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:32:59pm

re: #471 zombie

He was not yet known as a crazy cult leader. Just thought of as a radical but well-intentioned preacher.

As opposed to a community organizer who inspired cult-like adoration, and hung out with a radical preacher, I suppose.

Thanks, zom.

484 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:33:13pm

re: #475 Thanos

I hope the police are there, in force, to keep the zanies back far away. I'd hate to see those evil faces, contorted in hatred, triumphing at the death of another human being.

485 Desert Dog  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:34:22pm

re: #483 Dar ul Harb

As opposed to a community organizer who inspired cult-like adoration, and hung out with a radical preacher, I suppose.

Thanks, zom.

The Koolaid is not poison.....but there is still Koolaid being served

486 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:34:52pm

re: #465 Killgore Trout

Good news. It seems he was apprehended without more bloodshed.

You are off the hook!

487 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:34:57pm

re: #458 Gus 802

Latest Update:

Eyewitness News has confirmed the suspect in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller is in custody in the Kansas City area. Wichita police say the man was arrested near Gardner, KS at around 2:00 Sunday afternoon.

Wichita Police are hosting a news conference on the shooting at 4:00 pm today. Look for live coverage here.

Stay with Eyewitness News for further updates.

[Link: www.kwch.com...]

Thanks, we should know more after the news conference.
Tiller would obviously have been very security conscious. I wonder if he let his guard down----perhaps literally by leaving a bodyguard outside--- because he thought the crazies wouldn't target him inside the church. If so, it was a fatal error.

488 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:34:58pm

re: #15 Charles

Commenters at Gateway Pundit are applauding the murder.

Disgusting.

489 itellu3times  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:35:03pm

Neither murder nor capture on Drudge, can't he afford more weekend staff?

490 zombie  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:35:13pm

re: #483 Dar ul Harb

As opposed to a community organizer who inspired cult-like adoration, and hung out with a radical preacher, I suppose.

Thanks, zom.

Actually, Jim Jones' entire political career is like a blueprint taken directly from Saul Alinsky's essays. Jones epitomized how to make "community organizing" effective.

491 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:35:18pm

re: #485 Desert Dog

The Koolaid is not poison.....but there is still Koolaid being served

Oh, it's poison, just slow-acting, and in small(ish) doses. It takes chronic dosing to be fatal.

492 ladycatnip  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:35:53pm

#451 Jimmah

I think he made a reasonable post. You should reply to it properly.

I'll reply properly to his post after he tells me when he stopped beating his wife.

493 callahan23  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:35:59pm

re: #484 Guanxi88

I hope the police are there, in force, to keep the zanies back far away. I'd hate to see those evil faces, contorted in hatred, triumphing at the death of another human being.

Couldn't some chapter of bikers like the 'Patriot Guard Riders' provide some peace for that remembrance get-together?

494 Fluffster  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:36:05pm

I see no reason to celebrate this murder, but calling it terrorism is wrong. A targeted murder of a single high profile person does little to cause terror among the general public. It's an ugly crime, but it ain't terrorism.

495 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:36:10pm

re: #490 zombie

Actually, Jim Jones' entire political career is like a blueprint taken directly from Saul Alinsky's essays. Jones epitomized how to make "community organizing" effective.

And profitable. Don't forget profitable.

496 twincitiesgirl  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:36:15pm

If the person who murdered Dr Tiller called himself a pro life advocate he should ask himself why. Pro life people cherish life and wouldn't be applauding the murder of Dr Tiller. As far as Dr Tiller goes (never heard of him before today), IMO his conscience was dead, or in King James English, seared to the point he didn't have any remorse over what he did for a living. I'd be curious to know if the Lutheran church he attended ever tried to get him to see the error of his ways, since they clearly violated Biblical principles.

497 Guanxi88  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:36:39pm

re: #493 callahan23

Couldn't some chapter of bikers like the 'Patriot Guard Riders' provide some peace for that remembrance get-together?

Probably not enough time to organize such a thing.

498 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:36:47pm

re: #487 Shiplord Kirel

Thanks, we should know more after the news conference.
Tiller would obviously have been very security conscious. I wonder if he let his guard down----perhaps literally by leaving a bodyguard outside--- because he thought the crazies wouldn't target him inside the church. If so, it was a fatal error.

Looks like the news conference is about 1 hour and 10 minutes away. Might take a couple of days or weeks to get a complete picture of the perp.

499 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:37:26pm

re: #458 Gus 802

Good for the police. Glad he didn't try and take out a few of them.

500 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:37:45pm

Another barrage of hatred and support for the murderer, at the Fox News affiliate website in Kansas City:

[Link: www.fox4kc.com...]

Seems to me he got what he deserved. We now have one less child killer on the loose
steve archer @ 2:24 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

...

The killing of George Tiller is an eye for an eye, but much too late IMO. He'd have to die many, many times over to make up for the babies he has murdered.
Rob @ 2:23 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

...

One down--how many left to go? The shooter is a martyr, my prayers are with him.
chrissypoo6 @ 2:22 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

...

I hope this puts the fear of God into the rest of you abortion providers! Tiller got off easy-he should have suffered the same fate as the innocent children he murdered!
chrissypoo6 @ 2:03 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

...

I know not the mind of God. But as a human, THIS man had it coming. Who sucks a child to pieces, then goes to church? I will stand with whoever did this ANY day before I stand with Tiller.
John @ 2:03 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

...

Guess someone just made a "choice" right? Since none of us are any more than a choice our mother happened to make. People who get abortions should BE aborted since it's no big deal.
Johnny @ 2:03 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

...

Got what he deserved.
Tam @ 2:02 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

...

He was aborted....no big deal. Hooray to the gunman.
InAllFairness @ 2:02 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

...

oh gosh, too bad so sad, the man who bought painful death to a lot of innocent chidlren met his end through a no dobt painful death.......he will be sadly missed by few......drop us a line from hell doc, enjoy..........-.......
bob Hayes @ 2:02 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

...

I see another late (late, late) term abortion has been preformed in KS.
blaster @ 2:01 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

...

"Sic semper infanticidii aborsa." May this only be the beginning.
Anonymous @ 2:01 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

On and on and on. Hundreds of comments in this vein.

501 DistantThunder  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:38:10pm

re: #481 Desert Dog

He was extremely charismatic and charming. Unfortunately, he was also extremely psychotic. IIRC, his church was held up as an example of how churches and the communities work together to solve problems.

Jones had all the hallmarks of the "socialized sociopath" especially the charisma. Most people do not have the internal mental safeguards to protect them against the seduction of these individuals. Their affection, attention, and regardings for the well-being of others seems very real.

502 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:38:33pm

re: #474 zombie

That was fast!

Don't do crimes in Kansas, police agencies here are very good.

503 amir  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:38:43pm

re: #494 Fluffster

The purpose of terrorism is not necessarily to cause fear in the public. It can also be to terrorize members of a profession, for example, gynecologists who legally perform abortions.

504 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:38:59pm

re: #499 Pvt Bin Jammin

Good for the police. Glad he didn't try and take out a few of them.

There's always that danger.

505 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:40:07pm

re: #500 Charles

Unf'ing believable.

506 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:40:11pm

re: #480 Sharmuta

And outside a House of Worship. Terrible. I wonder how many children were there and had to see that.

It was worse than that. He was shot in the lobby after the service had started. Original story-recently updated.

507 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:40:42pm

Unfortunately I don't have time this afternoon to hang in here long, so I'm going to post my opinion and pretend it's the last word:

I didn't know this doctor although I think I have seen reference to him. I think he did what he did and others refused because he had greater principles than most, and courage.

Anecdotes and so called "right to life" descriptions of late term abortion invariable ignore the fact that very few are done, that the reasons are always exceptional, and usually tragic in many ways.

I know enough about late term abortion to believe that it is only done either because the health of the woman requires it or possibly because of very serious abnormalities detected late in the fetus, that gave it no chance of survival, or most often both.

I have no disagreement with anyone who says abortion should be avoided, late or not, but I do with anyone who pretends to be against it under any circumstance on what they call principles, and on what I call mindless dogma.

I believe that his doctor valued life, not dogma.

As to whether this murderer was a Christian....I have no doubt that he says so and I have no doubt that there are plenty who do and will try to protect him or make apologies for him; but I also know that most Christians won't.

508 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:41:02pm

re: #391 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Memo to Obama attack dog Robert Gibbs: stop pooping on our lawn

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]

What's up with the Telegraph, what sort of paper is it ? It seems to love the tabloid style editorials. Is it the British NYT or the Enquirer ? (I'm asking a serious question, since I know nothing of the British press)

509 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:41:06pm

re: #500 Charles

Kris Kobach, an otherwise good candidate, lost his last bid for office due to his tight affiliation with this cause. I'll be voting for Claeys (R) against him in the 2010 primaries. He was on O'Reilly doing the Baby killer diatribe a couple times I think.

510 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:41:23pm

re: #479 DistantThunder

I've always understood it to be a strategy to avoiding taking on the entire Roman Empire and causing a slave rebellion. Instead he sought to change individual hearts which did lead to change in the system.

Well, that's certainly one explanation. But unlike our Founding Fathers, it's difficult to think of a divine Jesus as constrained by historical political realities, and thus given the benefit of limited men on the issue, from a historical perspective.

Other explanations: Jesus' teachings condemning slavery have not come down to us, or were suppressed. Or, Jesus as fully human, was tormented by being unable to directly condemn what he divinely knew to be morally wrong, which is essentially your point, I think.

511 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:41:33pm

re: #504 Gus 802

There's always that danger.

How well I know. My daughter was a sworn officer once upon a time. I didn't sleep real well some nights.

512 danrudy  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:41:58pm

re: #496 twincitiesgirl

If the person who murdered Dr Tiller called himself a pro life advocate he should ask himself why. Pro life people cherish life and wouldn't be applauding the murder of Dr Tiller. As far as Dr Tiller goes (never heard of him before today), IMO his conscience was dead, or in King James English, seared to the point he didn't have any remorse over what he did for a living. I'd be curious to know if the Lutheran church he attended ever tried to get him to see the error of his ways, since they clearly violated Biblical principles.

First off let me say that I think this murder is just plain wrong.
However, I assume the person who murdered him has no real need to soul search as you suggest.
I am assuming the person who killed him thought he was saving may more lives by preventing babies from being killed. Sort of like the dilemma if you could go back in time and kill young Hitler would you and should you do it?
I assume this person came to his answer and acted upon it.
Of course, we have no facts, and maybe the guy owed him money from a poker debt or as sleeping with his wife.

513 callahan23  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:42:07pm

re: #500 Charles

What a lot of scum those commenters are.

514 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:42:36pm

re: #500 Charles
They've been listening to this kind of commentary on the issue for some time.


Tiller was better known to Fox News viewers as "Tiller the Baby Killer", as he's long been described by Bill O'Reilly who has spent years targeting Tiller on the most-watched show in cable news. O'Reilly has long demonized him with allegations of performing illegal late-term abortions, characterized as murder by O'Reilly and his guests.


(articled and videos at link) [Link: www.bradblog.com...]

515 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:43:13pm

re: #503 amir

The purpose of terrorism is not necessarily to cause fear in the public. It can also be to terrorize members of a profession, for example, gynecologists who legally perform abortions.

Please, stop it. There was a casino executive murdered in A/C last week right in the casino. Should I feel terrorized? Hire a bodyguard? Your argument is ridiculous.

516 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:43:23pm

re: #455 ladycatnip

#432 Jimmah

As I said in an earlier post, name ONE instance when a Jew or Christian have been put to death for doing that in the last 2000 years. It's the history of the children of Israel, and we Christians do not cherry-pick - we read it along with the NT.

It doesn't matter to this particular point that no one has followed it for 2000 years, the fact is it's there. At some point, people decided to ignore an unpleasant and immoral command.

Jimmah, please do not include yourself with the likes of Idioma who purposefully trashes Christianity/Jews. From your posts and karma, you are a thoughtful poster and I respect you for that. But to use the example of some wacko nut killing Dr. Tiller as an excuse to paint all Christianity with this broad bush and trash the Bible is just wrong. If you doubt me, then read my #99 post upthread.

As a non- believer, I regard the scriptures as wholly the work of men, so for me it just isn't even remotely controversial that there should be parts of it that are morally suspect, or just plain wrong. That isn't the same as saying it's all wrong or it's simply evil or anything like that. I would have thought that reasonable believers would be able to accept that not everything in the Bible is 'inspired', rather than feeling the need to defend every last piece of scripture, no matter how obviously problematic.

517 DistantThunder  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:43:31pm

re: #510 Dar ul Harb

Well, that's certainly one explanation. But unlike our Founding Fathers, it's difficult to think of a divine Jesus as constrained by historical political realities, and thus given the benefit of limited men on the issue, from a historical perspective.

Other explanations: Jesus' teachings condemning slavery have not come down to us, or were suppressed. Or, Jesus as fully human, was tormented by being unable to directly condemn what he divinely knew to be morally wrong, which is essentially your point, I think.

The suppression seems highly probable.

518 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:43:34pm

re: #508 avanti

it tends to tilt center right, and it's editorials are more like opinion postings, but the British press tossed the idea of impartiality out the window a long time ago. doesn't seem to have hurt them any

519 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:44:56pm

re: #506 Shiplord Kirel

It was worse than that. He was shot in the lobby after the service had started. Original story-recently updated.

That's just horrible. Some of those folks might have a very difficult time attending church for awhile due to trauma. And the children will suffer more from the trauma than the adults. Imagine not being able to attend church because your child is frightened! The killer has actually harmed people's relationship to God with this heinous act.

520 IslandLibertarian  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:45:10pm

re: #480 Sharmuta

And outside a House of Worship. Terrible. I wonder how many children were there and had to see that.

And a pro-lifer might say "How many children were not there and did not see that?"

This issue is one of the biggest wedges in American.
This murder is not acceptable on any level.
I pray we are given the wisdom to navigate through the abortion question.

peace

521 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:45:11pm

re: #485 Desert Dog

The Koolaid is not poison.....but there is still Koolaid being served

Oh, the Drink-Aid is poison all right.

Just to the body politic, rather than to the individual imbiber.

522 callahan23  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:45:19pm

re: #508 avanti

What's up with the Telegraph, what sort of paper is it ? It seems to love the tabloid style editorials. Is it the British NYT or the Enquirer ? (I'm asking a serious question, since I know nothing of the British press)

None of the above. NYT would translate to the british Guardian and the Enquirer would be the SUN.
The Telegraph is somewhere in the middle.

523 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:45:21pm

re: #174 Charles

That's just from the beginning of the first page. There are hundreds of comments like this.

Yeah, I did miss all that. I was here at a different thread. It really (first page) isn't nearly as bad. I also didn't realize though, there were over a thousand comments now, on multiple pages ... sorry.

524 Fluffster  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:45:48pm

re: #503 amir

Thank you for the ding, lovely Reasoned Discourse. I don't disagree with the general consensus here about the murder of Dr. Tiller, it's a despicable crime and I hope his murderer gets a harsh sentence.

Exactly what was completely unacceptable about what I said?

525 MandyManners  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:45:58pm

re: #473 danrudy

he should have commited even more murder?
Nice sentiment.

Where does he say that? He said it was good news because the suspect could have killed others if he had not been caught.

526 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:46:13pm

re: #518 Jewels (AKA Julian)

it tends to tilt center right, and it's editorials are more like opinion postings, but the British press tossed the idea of impartiality out the window a long time ago. doesn't seem to have hurt them any

Thanks, just trying to fill a knowledge hole.

527 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:47:03pm

re: #505 VegasRick

Unf'ing believable.

It's shocking to be confronted with the numbers of people who think that way. I would have thought them far more rare.

How screwed up is someone whose hero is a cold-blooded murderer? Ay yi frigging i.

528 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:47:15pm

re: #512 danrudy

Hey, let me be the first to say screw you and your godwinian however statement.

529 avanti  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:47:20pm

re: #522 callahan23

None of the above. NYT would translate to the british Guardian and the Enquirer would be the SUN.
The Telegraph is somewhere in the middle.

Honing in now, thanks.

530 John Neverbend  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:47:38pm

re: #489 itellu3times

Neither murder nor capture on Drudge, can't he afford more weekend staff?

It's up there now, but it seems to have been posted no earlier than 3:21.

531 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:47:39pm
532 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:48:01pm

re: #494 Fluffster

I see no reason to celebrate this murder, but calling it terrorism is wrong. A targeted murder of a single high profile person does little to cause terror among the general public. It's an ugly crime, but it ain't terrorism.

Obviously this act - if it is what it seems to be - is not aimed at the general public - it's aimed at doctors who perform abortions! Terrorising a specific group is still terrorism.

533 MandyManners  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:48:31pm

re: #494 Fluffster

I see no reason to celebrate this murder, but calling it terrorism is wrong. A targeted murder of a single high profile person does little to cause terror among the general public. It's an ugly crime, but it ain't terrorism.

If is if you're an ob-gyn or work for Planned Parenthood.

534 danrudy  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:48:37pm

re: #525 MandyManners

Where does he say that? He said it was good news because the suspect could have killed others if he had not been caught.

mandy..read a few more lines down.

535 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:49:13pm

re: #503 amir

The purpose of terrorism is not necessarily to cause fear in the public. It can also be to terrorize members of a profession, for example, gynecologists who legally perform abortions.

Blowing up clinics served to terrorize, and is/was wrong. In this case I think a deranged man wanted Tiller dead. Did he view his action as a way to send a message?

536 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:49:26pm

Damn, 531 went bye bye quick!

537 Annar  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:49:47pm

re: #468 Jimmah

I think it's a good thing that people of the Abrahamic religions cherry pick, don't get me wrong. The more they cherry pick, the safer we all are, generally speaking. And yes, Muslims need to do more cherry picking - sorry, 'distinguishing between symbolism and literalism'.

While the Biblical Old testament is based on prophets supposedly 'inspired by god,' the Qur'an is taken to be the exact word of god as written in some eternal sky book that Allah keeps on his night stand. Inspired prophecy leaves room for interpretation and revisionism whereas it is heresy oft punishable by death (even today as we see regularly in the news) to attempt to revise or re-interpret the words of the Islamic rock god or his sexually deviant prophet.

538 Steffan  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:50:20pm

re: #262 idioma

Christianity DOES advocate killing people.

Don't make me open up my Bible to Leviticus or Deuteronomy, there's plenty of advocating murder.

You pick and choose what parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest, because it's convenient to do so in a free country with separation of church and state.

"He that smiteth a man, so that he dies, must surely die also."

539 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:51:14pm

re: #487 Shiplord Kirel

Thanks, we should know more after the news conference.
Tiller would obviously have been very security conscious. I wonder if he let his guard down----perhaps literally by leaving a bodyguard outside--- because he thought the crazies wouldn't target him inside the church. If so, it was a fatal error.

Kansas' concealed-carry law would apparently prohibit carry in any location that's posted as such. The church could have prohibited carrying a gun by posting a sign to that effect.

(Which obviously doesn't stop those with criminal intent.)

540 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:52:43pm

re: #142 Wild Knight

Frankly, I dunno what people will do. There was a mass murder recently in front of my church, on a parvis full of witnesses by someone who was massively pissed off because his wife left him and took away his kids. Killer her, her new partner and a couple of people who got in the way of his shots.

I'm so sorry.

541 John Neverbend  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:52:49pm

re: #518 Jewels (AKA Julian)

it tends to tilt center right, and it's editorials are more like opinion postings, but the British press tossed the idea of impartiality out the window a long time ago. doesn't seem to have hurt them any

The adage is:

Times readers run the country,
Telegraph readers think they run the country,
Guardian readers wish they ran the country,
Mirror readers would run the country if the Times readers didn't run it already,
Mail readers don't know who runs the country,
Express readers don't care who runs the country,
and Sun readers don't give a damn who runs the country as long as her measurements exceed 38-24-36.

By the way, I read the FT, but only for the crossword and two weekend columnists who don't write about politics.

542 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:53:50pm

re: #531 restitutor orbis

Yeah I did notice the first time that you prefaced your vile post with a pious wish for the murderers arrest and punishment as a way of excusing what you wrote next. Didn't impress me then, doesn't impress me now either.

You will get no apology from me, as none is due.

543 jones  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:53:51pm

re: #512 danrudy

We are a nation of laws. You do not shoot people unless your life is in immediate danger.

Period.

544 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:54:21pm
545 ladycatnip  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:54:27pm

#516 Jimmah

As a non- believer, I regard the scriptures as wholly the work of men, so for me it just isn't even remotely controversial that there should be parts of it that are morally suspect, or just plain wrong. That isn't the same as saying it's all wrong or it's simply evil or anything like that. I would have thought that reasonable believers would be able to accept that not everything in the Bible is 'inspired', rather than feeling the need to defend every last piece of scripture, no matter how obviously problematic.

Jimmah, you are entitled to your opinion, but again, it's just your opinion. Idioma and you brought this into the mix. No one knows whether the murderer of Tiller is even claiming to be a Christian; your assumptions are premature and biased. It appears that the two of you decided to pounce on the Bible as a result of Dr. Tiller's death and vent your own personal negative feelings about religion. That's not good debate, and is no different than asking a person when they stopped beating their wife. You're leading with a negative rather than having a civil debate.

546 John Neverbend  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:55:18pm

re: #541 John Neverbend


Times readers run the country....

Oddly, The Independent is missing. Not sure why. Two things about The Independent. 1. It isn't. 2. Robert Fisk writes for it.

547 pink freud  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:55:28pm

re: #541 John Neverbend

Nice to have the inside poop. Thanks. :-)

548 amir  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:56:06pm

re: #524 Fluffster

Sorry about the ding. Perhaps I am not aware of the purpose of the ding. I didn't read all the comments on the thread. I read your comment and didn't agree so I down-dinged. Your comment was not unacceptable. A perfectly acceptable comment. I down-dinged because I don't agree with it and I wrote why. If the purpose of down-dinging is to point out unacceptable comments than I shouldn't have down dinged.

549 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:57:57pm

Fluffster is on a rampage.

550 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:58:53pm

re: #548 amir

Don't apologise! He's on a down dinging rampage of his own right now.

551 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:59:05pm

re: #549 Jimmah

Fluffster is on a rampage.

Where?

552 amir  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:59:14pm

I notice fluffster is doing some down dinging himself.

553 lightspeed  Sun, May 31, 2009 12:59:38pm

With many on the right reacting to this story like a Palestinian mob, I wonder if those on the left will try and make Tiller into a martyr. I can see Olberdunce now, spitting and sputtering about the evil Christian right and their crusade of hatred. Rick Warren, Pat Robertson, Michael Steele, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, et. al....will they all be forceful in denouncing this horrible act? Will they be willing to take to task those who don't? I have a feeling more than one on that list will be less than enthusiastic in their condemnation. Robertson might not even denounce the act. Sigh. This will hurt the right.

P.S. - Apparently Randall Terry of Operation Rescue has weighed in, "George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller's killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name, murder." en.wikipedia.org...]>

554 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:00:05pm

Downdinging is terrorism.
/

555 Lynn B.  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:00:16pm

re: #537 Annar

While the Biblical Old testament is based on prophets supposedly 'inspired by god,' the Qur'an is taken to be the exact word of god as written in some eternal sky book that Allah keeps on his night stand. Inspired prophecy leaves room for interpretation and revisionism whereas it is heresy oft punishable by death (even today as we see regularly in the news) to attempt to revise or re-interpret the words of the Islamic rock god or his sexually deviant prophet.

This is such a widespread misconception that I'm sure my puny little comment here will do nothing to contain it. But the position of traditional Judaism is and has always been that the first five books of the Hebrew Bible contain the exact word of God, dictated to Moses at Sinai. More recent liberal interpretations may vary.

This in no way closes the door to interpretation and indeed volumes of such interpretation are part and parcel of Jewish law. Revisionism, not so much (although at times the lines blur).

556 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:01:06pm

re: #544 leereyno

You would have done well to leave that last bit off, especially on this thread.

(Even referencing that scenario as your worst fear probably gets the rest of your post deleted.)

557 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:01:28pm

DEAR TROLLS

Please stop posting for the next 15 minutes. Stinky is due a coffee break and he needs to re-charge the BAN STICK

Thanks

558 Fluffster  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:01:30pm

xre: #550 Jimmah

Yeah, I wanted to try. It gives a perverse satisfaction, but it's short-lived.

559 Dar ul Harb  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:01:56pm

re: #556 Dar ul Harb

Q.E.D.

560 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:02:09pm

re: #556 Dar ul Harb

You would have done well to leave that last bit off, especially on this thread.

(Even referencing that scenario as your worst fear probably gets the rest of your post deleted.)

The last bit was disturbing, but so was the first.

561 Logician  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:02:21pm

Being a logical person I am of course in favor of abortion under certain circumstances. So in order to judge the people who are celebrating this murder I do this mental exercise: I imagine how I would feel if the law were such that people I consider to be murderers are protected by the law rather than punished.

There's no need imagine. There are many such cases. For instance, members of murderous regimes are walking the streets of New York at this moment with impunity, because they are UN diplomats. Likewise Nazi war criminals. Likewise domestic terrorists who were set free on technicalities. And so on.

And how do I feel? I deplore it. What do I feel entitled to do about it? Try to persuade others peacefully of my view that the current law is flawed. This is what democracy and the rule of law are about: to rectify injustices, you use persuasion, not violence.

562 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:04:43pm

re: #545 ladycatnip

#516 Jimmah

Jimmah, you are entitled to your opinion, but again, it's just your opinion. Idioma and you brought this into the mix. No one knows whether the murderer of Tiller is even claiming to be a Christian; your assumptions are premature and biased. It appears that the two of you decided to pounce on the Bible as a result of Dr. Tiller's death and vent your own personal negative feelings about religion. That's not good debate, and is no different than asking a person when they stopped beating their wife. You're leading with a negative rather than having a civil debate.

For me, this was nothing to do with venting negative feelings about religions. I was responding to what I saw as over reaching defences of religion. I don't think I have spoken in an uncivil way here (trolls excepted of course).

563 Steffan  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:05:28pm

re: #419 Killgore Trout

We speculate and hypothesize around here all the time. If this was a bomb set off at a synagogue we'd all be trying to figure out the motivations behind it. Anti-abortion extremists aren't exempt from this. I don't see why they should be.

KT, the problem with that idea is that there are maybe two types of people who would bomb a synagogue. The first type is Palestinians or their more rabid supporters. The second type would be neo-Nazis. In either case, the motive is blatantly obvious: they think that Himmler's "final solution" was a good idea.

The motive in this case is also obvious. I greatly fear that there are people out and about that make the members of Operation Rescue look like moderates.

564 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:05:54pm

re: #554 unrealizedviewpoint

Downdinging is terrorism.
/

Not really but it's funny when someone starts crying about getting a downding and then goes on a downding rampage himself.

565 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:07:06pm

re: #267 iceweasel

but this is part of the misconception (sic) about abortion in general and late-term abortion in particular. Women don't waltz into a doctor's office at 6, 7, 8, 9 months pregnant and say "hey! I want an abortion! Nope, never thought about this at all before, tee-hee!"--that is the propaganda the so-cons spew about it.

Late-term abortions shouldn't even be called "abortion"-- they're *already* performed largely on purely medical reasons. I'll give you one example, which just happened to a friend: imagine a woman who discovers that her fetus is already dead when she's 7 months pregnant. Choices open to her: induce labour and go through that process--giving birth and enduring labour when you KNOW the fetus is already dead-- or having this medical procedure.
my friend is Catholic and a mother of 4. Her procedure, guess what, is called "late-term abortion".

Thank you.

566 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:10:22pm

re: #270 Alouette

There is no advocating of murder in Leviticus or Deuteronomy. There are many listings of capital crimes, which today are not prosecuted.

People who advocate murders like that of Dr. Tiller often use Pinchas (Phineas is the English, I think) as a model. Numbers twenty-five. It's decidedly an extrajudicial killing, carried out for ideological reasons. Not a murder? Not justified in the text?

567 John Neverbend  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:10:44pm

re: #555 Lynn B.

This is such a widespread misconception that I'm sure my puny little comment here will do nothing to contain it. But the position of traditional Judaism is and has always been that the first five books of the Hebrew Bible contain the exact word of God, dictated to Moses at Sinai. More recent liberal interpretations may vary.

Your comment is accurate and in no way puny. I'm quite certain that the Rabbi at my synagogue believes in the concept of Torah from heaven. In fact, there are some who would extend it to include the whole of the written Torah and some of the older parts of the Talmud. Dissenting views are present in the Conservative, Reform and Liberal movements. There was an interesting case in Britain in the 1950s when an orthodox Rabbi and a fine Talmudist published a book in which he questioned this doctrine. Some say it cost him the position of Chief Rabbi for which he was evidently a candidate. I had the privilege of attending one of his Talmud classes about 20 years ago. He was a tremendous scholar.

568 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:13:34pm

re: #340 Desert Dog

So should they bring Hannity up on charges? What would the charge(s) be?

Not all responsibility is legal.

569 idioma  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:18:20pm

re: #402 ladycatnip

#262 Idioma

neither Jew nor Christian have advocated using the OT for the last couple thousand years.

...

Seriously?

I wonder where the gunman got his ideas then.

570 idioma  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:25:11pm

re: #433 ladycatnip

#429 Idioma

I was going to post a reply, but thought the better of it then clicked your football instead. Judging by your number of posts and down-dings you're just a rabble-rouser, trouble-maker, stir-it-up kinda poster.

Love the Proverb that says not to answer a fool according to his folly - or something like that.

You can't argue against my point, so you attack my character.

I'm not mad, just a little disappointed, it's not very christian of you.

571 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:28:05pm

So - do people who have unpopular views then just shut up?

572 MarineMomSue  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:33:01pm

re: #379 MarineMomSue

I suppose, we've all told people things they don't want to hear. I'm sure I have too.

It wasn't my intent to pick a fight, jaunte. I found some irony in your post and your nic quote and commented on it, that's all.

Personally, I think Tiller's medical practice was despicable but I don't dispute it was legal. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of Randall Terry or of Sean Hannity, for that matter. I just don't hold either of them responsible for Tiller's death.

573 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:33:20pm

re: #412 idioma

So Christians just throw out that part of the bible then? I mean, it's a bunch of crazy stories about young-earth creation and great floods, talking snakes and such. Just silly stuff that Christians could throw out the window, right?

Give me a break!

Christians use the old testament when convenient and ignore it when it's an embarrassment.

On these threads, I see any number of capital "C" Christians (and Jews, too) who come and denounce the actions people like this madman.

And then there's you - denouncing christians.

And - proselytizing for atheism, perhaps?

re: #429 idioma

. . .
If you find yourself defending a group you belong to because they commit acts of hate and violence, you NEED to have the courage to leave. You are not required to enable anyone - ever.

574 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:34:48pm

re: #572 MarineMomSue

I suppose, we've all told people things they don't want to hear. I'm sure I have too.

It wasn't my intent to pick a fight, jaunte. I found some irony in your post and your nic quote and commented on it, that's all.

Personally, I think Tiller's medical practice was despicable but I don't dispute it was legal. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of Randall Terry or of Sean Hannity, for that matter. I just don't hold either of them responsible for Tiller's death.

There is indeed something called "Personal Responsibility".

575 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:36:37pm

re: #569 idioma

...

Seriously?

I wonder where the gunman got his ideas then.

Um.
From his own head?

576 MarineMomSue  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:39:15pm

re: #574 reine.de.tout

There is indeed something called "Personal Responsibility".

I agree completely.

577 MacDuff  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:51:12pm

re: #536 VegasRick

Damn, 531 went bye bye quick!

I've noticed that subjects such as this, as well as yesterday's "Saudi execution" thread, seems to really bring out the bloodlust in some people and the thin veneer of civilized discourse falls away.

I consider myself very pro-life, but there is simply no excuse for violence or murder. None. We're a nation of laws and as long as the law stands, well, that's the way it is; to stray from that principle leads to mayem and anarchy. That's not the type of country in which I want to live.

578 danrudy  Sun, May 31, 2009 1:59:37pm

re: #543 jones

We are a nation of laws. You do not shoot people unless your life is in immediate danger.

Period.

Hey, thanks for the newsflash.
Did I say anything contrary?
I was responding to the query how could someone who cherishes life take a life. I ws explaining how someone who was prolife could reach the conclusion that someone should die. That is hardly a ringing endorsement. In fact, knowing that knuckleheads were going to misinterpret (Thanos?) I made the point of saying in my first line that this was a murder and was wrong. So exactly what was the point of your post?

579 danrudy  Sun, May 31, 2009 2:02:00pm

re: #528 Thanos

Hey, let me be the first to say screw you and your godwinian however statement.


perhaps you should read the query I was responding to instead of liking see your name in print.

580 Lynn B.  Sun, May 31, 2009 2:08:45pm

re: #567 John Neverbend

Your comment is accurate and in no way puny. I'm quite certain that the Rabbi at my synagogue believes in the concept of Torah from heaven. In fact, there are some who would extend it to include the whole of the written Torah and some of the older parts of the Talmud. Dissenting views are present in the Conservative, Reform and Liberal movements. There was an interesting case in Britain in the 1950s when an orthodox Rabbi and a fine Talmudist published a book in which he questioned this doctrine. Some say it cost him the position of Chief Rabbi for which he was evidently a candidate. I had the privilege of attending one of his Talmud classes about 20 years ago. He was a tremendous scholar.

Louis Jacobs?

Thanks. I can't help but find it interesting that this would come up today, as the holiday celebrating our receipt of the Torah just ended last night (outside of Israel). But it comes up so often that I can't read too much into that.

581 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 2:26:45pm

Statement from the Family:

Dan Monnat and Lee Thompson, Dr. George Tiller's attorneys, issued the following statement today at the request of Mrs. Jeanne Tiller, the Tiller's four children and ten grandchildren:

"Today we mourn the loss of our husband, father and grandfather. Today's event is an unspeakable tragedy for all of us and for George's friends and patients. This is particularly heart wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace.

We would like to express the family's thanks for the many messages of sympathy from our friends and from all across the nation. We also want to thank the law enforcement officers who are investigating this crime.

Our loss is also a loss for the City of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality heath care despite frequent threats and violence. We ask that he be remembered as a good husband, father and grandfather and a dedicated servant on behalf of the rights of women everywhere."

582 smoot  Sun, May 31, 2009 2:31:29pm

Re: #444 itellu3times

Fine, would you rather be a black man in the South during the 1960s or the 1800s?

That Islam promised Jews could be second-class citizens was about the best they ever offered, between massacres, and if this is better than Jews got in large parts of Europe between, say, 800 and 1600 or so, well, it's not much to celebrate, in my opinion.

I still stand by my statement. It would be ridiculous to deny that Jews were subject to persecution in Muslim lands and were considered dhimmis, but much of the time Muslims had a liberal attitude toward the Jews. Dhimmi did not always have the same connotation as it does today. The idea of dhimmitude is definitely tinged with Islamic supremacy, but Muslim rulers didn't always enforce the rule. Under some dynasties, most notably the Fatimids caliphate, Jews were afforded a good amount of tolerance and were even allowed to serve in government posts. Does this mean that some caliphates never got more oppressive and that Jews were never persecuted? Certainly not. But the overall situation in the Middle East sure beat that in Europe in which Jews were guaranteed to be forced into ghetto and at the mercy of their Christian neighbors every time the king's subjects felt that they were being taxed too high, found one of their children dead (blood libel), or took issue with a line in the Talmud.

Life under Muslim rule was no walk in the park, but the notion that Muslims in the Middle Ages were always sure to brutally dominate the Jews is pure revisionism.

583 smoot  Sun, May 31, 2009 2:32:27pm

"That Islam promised Jews could be second-class citizens was about the best they ever offered, between massacres, and if this is better than Jews got in large parts of Europe between, say, 800 and 1600 or so, well, it's not much to celebrate, in my opinion."

That's supposed to be quoted. I don't frequently post on this website so I don't know what the hell I'm doing yet.

584 Reluctant Democrat  Sun, May 31, 2009 2:48:37pm

Terrible news, on every level. A moral and political outrage.

Of course, this plays into the left's premise that everyone on the right is nuts. Keith O is salivating. Congrats, wacko killer man.

585 jordash1212  Sun, May 31, 2009 3:57:56pm

How terribly ironic that people who would call his work sacrilegious would murder someone, let alone in a house of God.

586 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:05:32pm
587 wiffersnapper  Sun, May 31, 2009 8:23:45pm

re: #11 commadore183

Amen.

588 Flavia  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:20:56pm

Is anyone really surprised at the hypocrisy of the anti-choice* brigade?

(Please note the group I name - NOT any religious group, and not even those who are anti-abortion: there's a difference).


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