Assange Arrest Imminent

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A new warrant for the arrest of Wikileaks founder Julian Assange has been filed with British authorities.

Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks founder, is expected to be arrested in the coming days after Swedish prosecutors filed a new warrant with British authorities.

The Independent revealed yesterday that a procedural error with the European Arrest Warrant had delayed the arrest of the 39-year-old Australian, who is wanted in Sweden over sexual allegations but has been in England since October.

Police in Gothenburg claim they have now submitted a fresh warrant to the Serious Organised Crime Agency. Soca is expected to instruct Scotland Yard to arrest Mr Assange and have him appear before an extradition hearing – although as of last night the Metropolitan Police had yet to receive the warrant. …

Last night, Mr Assange’s family spoke of their fears for his safety after increasingly shrill statements from American commentators who have called for his assassination. His mother, Christine Assange, said “the forces that he’s challenging are too big”.

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626 comments
1 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 6:57:34pm

If he’s still in the UK he’s an idiot.

2 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 6:58:10pm

dumb fuck is in a world of hurt now…he can’t move

3 darthstar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 6:58:38pm

I told him not to go after the banks.

4 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 6:58:43pm

/a star is born!

this is such scripted bullshit.

5 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 6:58:57pm

re: #1 Killgore Trout

If he’s still in the UK he’s an idiot.

unless he fled yesterday or before…where is he?

6 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 6:59:03pm

Meanwhile, we’ll have some people argue that Obama is letting the Europeans do the work that a CIA drone should be doing.

7 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 6:59:18pm

re: #3 darthstar

I told him not to go after the banks.

but that’s where the money is

8 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 6:59:48pm

Jersey… Guernsey.. Orkneys…

9 darthstar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:00:04pm

re: #7 albusteve

but that’s where the money is

Only if you want to protect them from investigation.

10 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:00:19pm

re: #8 jaunte

Jersey… Guernsey.. Orkneys…

a frikkin island

11 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:00:43pm

What’s up here?

12 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:01:15pm

Image: prisoner.jpg

13 PT Barnum  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:01:20pm

re: #10 albusteve

a frikkin island

Norman is an islandl

14 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:01:42pm

re: #8 jaunte

Jersey… Guernsey.. Orkneys…

/Jerusalem… get the nails ready.

15 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:01:47pm

c’mon in Julien, we won’t hurt you

16 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:02:05pm

Check North Korea.

/

17 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:02:05pm

re: #12 jaunte

Image: prisoner.jpg

Youtube Video
18 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:02:19pm

re: #4 brookly red

/a star is born!

this is such scripted bullshit.

Commercial free, I hope.

19 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:02:49pm

re: #8 jaunte

Jersey… Guernsey.. Orkneys…

He still won’t get away. Rapists don’t draw much sympathy in the UK, and the government will be entirely willing to catch him and send him to stand trial.

20 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:02:53pm

Serious Organised Crime Agency. There’s a Python skit in that somewhere.

21 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:02:57pm

re: #18 b_sharp

Commercial free, I hope.

well we can count Amazon out…

22 darthstar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:03:29pm

re: #20 Slumbering Behemoth

Serious Organised Crime Agency. There’s a Python skit in that somewhere.

The Python skit is about as applicable as Godwin’s law…it goes with anything.

23 PT Barnum  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:03:50pm

re: #21 brookly red

well we can count Amazon out…

I dunno, I heard they were releasing the whole thing on the Kindle.
/

24 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:03:52pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

He still won’t get away. Rapists don’t draw much sympathy in the UK, and the government will be entirely willing to catch him and send him to stand trial.

passport is useless, low on cash and can’t hit an ATM…he’s cooked

25 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:03:57pm

must find food… bbl

26 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:04:55pm

re: #14 brookly red

/Jerusalem… get the nails ready.

He’d be in for that sort of thing if the inmates of a US or UK prison got their hands on him.

27 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:06:11pm

This image of him makes me laugh…

Image: assangeSUM_1775173b.jpg

He sort of looks like James O’Keefe as a pimp.

28 calochortus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:06:15pm
His mother, Christine Assange, said “the forces that he’s challenging are too big”.

The force of his own hubris perhaps?

29 TedStriker  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:06:49pm

If the Swedish charges are indeed kosher and based on good info, Assange is well and truly fucked, aside from the other sticky wickets he’s created with WikiLeaks as of late.

/is it wrong to feel just a twinge of schadenfreude here?

30 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:06:59pm

re: #12 jaunte

Image: prisoner.jpg

Love that series. I should watch those again someday and see if they still hold up.

31 TedStriker  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:07:25pm

re: #27 Gus 802

This image of him makes me laugh…

Image: assangeSUM_1775173b.jpg

He sort of looks like James O’Keefe as a pimp.

He looks like a pretentious dickhead, IMO…

32 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:07:29pm

re: #28 calochortus

The force of his own hubris perhaps?

good old mum….I guarantee he will not leave GB, those guys are good at this shit

33 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:07:37pm

He can’t go anywhere because every government has to at least suspect that he will leak some of their dirt.

34 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:08:18pm

re: #33 Shiplord Kirel

He can’t go anywhere because every government has to at least suspect that he will leak some of their dirt.

No one likes a snitch.

35 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:08:28pm

re: #28 calochortus

His mother, Christine Assange, said “the forces that he’s challenging are too big”.

The force of his own hubris perhaps?

I thought size doesn’t matter.

36 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:08:30pm

re: #33 Shiplord Kirel

He can’t go anywhere because every government has to at least suspect that he will leak some of their dirt.

he’s cornered

37 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:08:49pm

Enter Rover

Youtube Video
38 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:08:56pm

re: #33 Shiplord Kirel

He can’t go anywhere because every government has to at least suspect that he will leak some of their dirt.

oh please they will pay him too… he is just a tool.

39 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:08:56pm

Something about this just smells to me.

So we are pissed that he published leaked docs then root for his arrest on rape charges?

We’ll see how it ends up, but I’m not comfortable.

40 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:10:29pm

re: #37 Killgore Trout

Hmmm…It seems Rover was this inspiration for the Smoke Monster on Lost.

41 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:10:31pm

re: #39 Stanley Sea

Something about this just smells to me.

So we are pissed that he published leaked docs then root for his arrest on rape charges?

We’ll see how it ends up, but I’m not comfortable.

really this is so scripted how can anyone take this seriously ?

42 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:10:50pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

“That would be telling.”

43 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:10:58pm

re: #38 brookly red

oh please they will pay him too… he is just a tool.

who’s tool?…nobody will touch him now

44 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:11:06pm

Countdown to the Wikileaks reality show on TV…

45 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:11:14pm

re: #39 Stanley Sea

Something about this just smells to me.

So we are pissed that he published leaked docs then root for his arrest on rape charges?

We’ll see how it ends up, but I’m not comfortable.

can the book/movie deal be far off?

46 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:11:15pm

re: #42 jaunte

“That would be telling.”

By hook or by crook.

47 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:11:17pm

G’night Sauropsida.

I’ve got some C# to read.

48 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:11:51pm

re: #43 albusteve

who’s tool?…nobody will touch him now

touch him? We OWN him.

49 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:12:02pm

re: #43 albusteve

“The fact is, governments deal with the United States because it’s in their interest, not because they like us, not because they trust us, and not because they believe we can keep secrets.” - Defense Secretary Robert Gates

50 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:12:17pm

meanwhile, in other news…

Study says pollution makes birds gay

51 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:12:18pm

re: #42 jaunte

“That would be telling.”

Yeah, epic line. Maybe I’ll schedule the Prisoner for my X-mas ganja marathon.

52 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:12:53pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

Happy Ganjmas!

53 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:13:02pm

re: #41 brookly red

really this is so scripted how can anyone take this seriously ?

I just think it’s weak. The world is pissed because of the docs, go after him for that. Oh right, you can’t.

54 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:13:27pm

re: #50 engineer dog

meanwhile, in other news…

Study says pollution makes birds gay

That explains why the birds sing YMCA around my compost pile.

55 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:13:31pm

re: #50 engineer dog

meanwhile, in other news…

Study says pollution makes birds gay

This is it! This is how we get the GOP to take the environment seriously! Pollition makes you gay. Brilliant!

56 calochortus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:13:38pm

re: #39 Stanley Sea

Based on what little I’ve seen of him being interviewed, the leaks and the possibility of rape could just go together. He seemed to be utterly convinced of his rightness (and righteousness) and rather bitter. It could be a set-up, but I don’t see anything to indicate it. His lawyer said something about the sex acts being consensual…and that makes me a tad suspicious when we’re talking about 2 women who didn’t, apparently know each other.

57 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:13:39pm

re: #41 brookly red

really this is so scripted how can anyone take this seriously ?

to what end?…apparently the docs are not that damaging and rape is a very serious accusation…nobody wants this guy around so who did he work for?

58 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:14:08pm

re: #50 engineer dog

meanwhile, in other news…

Study says pollution makes birds gay

McCain will somehow flip flop on it. Give him a minute.

Such an asshole.

59 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:14:26pm

re: #49 laZardo

I miss your point

60 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:15:05pm

re: #53 Stanley Sea

I just think it’s weak. The world is pissed because of the docs, go after him for that. Oh right, you can’t.

and we really really let some 22 year old smuggle it all out on Lady GaGa CDs? please this whole thing stinks.

61 darthstar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:15:26pm

re: #58 Stanley Sea

McCain will somehow flip flop on it. Give him a minute.

Such an asshole.

John McCain has early signs of dementia. He’s not all there anymore. People will ignore this fact for another six years or until he retires from the Senate for health reasons, whichever comes first…but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s still an asshole.

62 Linden Arden  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:15:29pm

Assange is an Open Society guy - for better or worse.


In open societies, government is responsive and tolerant, and political mechanisms are transparent and flexible. It is as opposed to closed society.

The state keeps no secrets from itself in the public sense; it is a non-authoritarian society in which all are trusted with the knowledge of all. Political freedoms and human rights are the foundation of an open society.

(Wiki)

For better or worse - an individual must decide if all information should be available to all…. Now I, (like Soros) favor Open Society.

This is the crux that conservatives HATE — All info in an Open Society is subject to scientific introspection! Thus religion is too.


Think about a world of full and open info for all………..

63 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:15:43pm

re: #60 brookly red

and we really really let some 22 year old smuggle it all out on Lady GaGa CDs? please this whole thing stinks.

yes, we did

64 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:15:53pm

re: #56 calochortus

Based on what little I’ve seen of him being interviewed, the leaks and the possibility of rape could just go together. He seemed to be utterly convinced of his rightness (and righteousness) and rather bitter. It could be a set-up, but I don’t see anything to indicate it. His lawyer said something about the sex acts being consensual…and that makes me a tad suspicious when we’re talking about 2 women who didn’t, apparently know each other.

Well that will take a court of law to determine. It’s just so convenient.

65 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:16:32pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

That explains why the birds sing YMCA around my compost pile.

If it’s mercury making the birds gay, then they’d be singing “Princes of the Universe” instead.

66 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:16:47pm

re: #57 albusteve

to what end?…apparently the docs are not that damaging and rape is a very serious accusation…nobody wants this guy around so who did he work for?

/we shouted out who killed the Kennedy’s, when after all it was you & me…

pleased to meet you…

67 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:16:55pm

re: #62 Linden Arden

Assange is probably being over-optimistic about people responding to evidence.

68 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:17:03pm

re: #59 albusteve

Someone will want to hire him, if not him than his successor. Let’s see if they’ll get to him before the authorities do.

69 calochortus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:17:12pm

re: #64 Stanley Sea

Agreed that it will take a court of law-and I really don’t have a strong opinion-just sayin’ that it doesn’t seem out of the question.

70 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:17:12pm

re: #39 Stanley Sea

The rape charges were filed in August of this year, IIRC. When did WLs publish the Manning stuff?

71 darthstar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:17:46pm

re: #70 Slumbering Behemoth

The rape charges were filed in August of this year, IIRC. When did WLs publish the Manning stuff?

This week.

72 Linden Arden  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:18:38pm

re: #67 jaunte

Assange is probably being over-optimistic about people responding to evidence.

I am sure you are correct.

Is an Open Society harmed by that?

73 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:18:45pm

re: #63 albusteve

yes, we did

I agree with you 99% of the time… pardon my 1% here.

74 calochortus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:19:08pm

re: #71 darthstar

He was known to have it well before last week, though.

75 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:19:28pm

re: #62 Linden Arden

Assange is an Open Society guy - for better or worse.

(Wiki)

For better or worse - an individual must decide if all information should be available to all… Now I, (like Soros) favor Open Society.

This is the crux that conservatives HATE — All info in an Open Society is subject to scientific introspection! Thus religion is too.

Think about a world of full and open info for all…

My God, what a hateful idea. I’m actually quite a fan of secrets staying secret. Sometimes people really do need to figure things out without the world knowing, sometimes a matter is simply not the world’s business.

76 nhand42  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:19:35pm

Glenn Greenwald writes:


If the Tea Party movement and the Right generally were even minimally genuine in their ostensible beliefs, few things would trigger more intense objections than a political official trying to dictate to private actors which political content they should allow on the Internet (instead, you have Newt Gingrich demanding that Assange be declared an “enemy combatant” and Sarah Palin calling for his murder). Remember, though — as The Post told us today — it’s “authoritarian governments and tightly controlled media in China and across the Arab Middle East” which are trying to prevent citizens from learning about the WikiLeaks documents.

Glenn nails it; this intense anger against Wikileaks and Julian Assange is perfectly normal behaviour for authoritarian governments, but not for self-described libertarian free-thinkers.

77 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:20:01pm

re: #70 Slumbering Behemoth

The rape charges were filed in August of this year, IIRC. When did WLs publish the Manning stuff?

my google fu failed. someone?

78 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:20:15pm

re: #73 brookly red

I agree with you 99% of the time… pardon my 1% here.

no problem

79 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:20:16pm

re: #29 talon_262

If the Swedish charges are indeed kosher and based on good info, Assange is well and truly fucked, aside from the other sticky wickets he’s created with WikiLeaks as of late.

/is it wrong to feel just a twinge of schadenfreude here?

It’s a bit dangerous. We must guard against a too-ready willingness to believe every bad thing said about our enemies.

We know what Assange has done to us. We don’t know with that kind of certainty about this other. It’s entirely possible he’s guilty as charged. The majority, the heavy majority, of rape accusations are true. But it wouldn’t be the first time somebody was falsely accused of rape.

80 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:20:34pm

re: #62 Linden Arden

Think about a world of full and open info for all…

Okay, I’m turning on my web cam now, and taking off my pants.

81 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:21:12pm

re: #70 Slumbering Behemoth

The rape charges were filed in August of this year, IIRC. When did WLs publish the Manning stuff?

re: #71 darthstar

This week.

No, the original dump was probably August. Or July.

Seriously, I see this so obviously as a back end way to get someone that you cannot get otherwise.

I of course could be wrong.

82 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:21:25pm

re: #80 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay, I’m turning on my web cam now, and taking off my pants.

Atta boy!
{extremely awkward nude high 5}

83 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:21:26pm

re: #72 Linden Arden

In open societies, government is responsive and tolerant, and political mechanisms are transparent and flexible.


What I mean is, I don’t think a responsive and tolerant government necessarily follows from a random information dump.

84 calochortus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:21:36pm

re: #77 Stanley Sea

Manning was arrested in June, does that answer your question-obviously they knew who had given the info to Assange by then.

85 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:21:45pm

re: #66 brookly red

/we shouted out who killed the Kennedy’s, when after all it was you & me…

pleased to meet you…

Youtube Video
86 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:22:15pm

re: #71 darthstar

I thought there were some US-Iraq military stuff leaked earlier than that.

87 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:22:37pm

re: #76 nhand42

Glenn Greenwald writes:

Glenn nails it; this intense anger against Wikileaks and Julian Assange is perfectly normal behaviour for authoritarian governments, but not for self-described libertarian free-thinkers.

Glenn Greenwald is almost as despicable as Assange. Fucking Libertarian anarchist.

88 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:22:47pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

[Video]

heh…I’m good to go now, thanks

89 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:22:58pm

re: #83 jaunte

What I mean is, I don’t think a responsive and tolerant government necessarily follows from a random information dump.

Usually it’s the other way around.

90 Linden Arden  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:23:01pm

re: #80 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay, I’m turning on my web cam now, and taking off my pants.

Well, rejoice that there is a web site for you!

I watched the South Park episode —- was it “Chat Roulette”?


If its your thing? Go for it!

91 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:23:02pm

Hobbits are real.

92 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:23:13pm

re: #80 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay, I’m turning on my web cam now, and taking off my pants.

Wait! Not while I’m in class!

93 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:23:20pm

re: #77 Stanley Sea

my google fu failed. someone?

The Iraq tape was a year or two ago. That came from Manning as well.

94 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:23:41pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Glenn Greenwald is almost as despicable as Assange. Fucking Libertarian anarchist.

Killgore! heh, I’m more open minded I guess.

95 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:24:18pm

re: #82 Fozzie Bear

Atta boy!
{extremely awkward nude high 5}

Could be an extremely awkward high six. You don’t know what other tabs I have open just now. :0

96 Linden Arden  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:24:37pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

My God, what a hateful idea. I’m actually quite a fan of secrets staying secret. Sometimes people really do need to figure things out without the world knowing, sometimes a matter is simply not the world’s business.

I’m keeping up with you!

Disagree though!

97 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:25:01pm

re: #62 Linden Arden

Assange is an Open Society guy - for better or worse.

(Wiki)

For better or worse - an individual must decide if all information should be available to all… Now I, (like Soros) favor Open Society.

This is the crux that conservatives HATE — All info in an Open Society is subject to scientific introspection! Thus religion is too.

Think about a world of full and open info for all…

Think about a world in which no one ever speaks frankly, even in private. All conversations are elliptical, with the real meaning conveyed with lifted eyebrow, significant silences, and discussions that are not what they appear to be about.

Would we want everything we post here to be attached to our real name? Evidently not, for most of us. I’m not ashamed of my record here, but there have been a couple of ill-judged posts. And then there are the ones I stand behind, that would earn me ill will in some circles. Some of them thick with green updings here.

By our conduct, we reveal our actual preferences: a measure of privacy, please!

98 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:25:17pm

re: #95 Slumbering Behemoth

ROFL

99 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:25:37pm

re: #98 Fozzie Bear

it took me a minute, but good one.

100 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:27:25pm

re: #92 laZardo

Wait! Not while I’m in class!

Too late. Y’all want an “open and free” society, you’re getting it. I hope you’re in piano class, ‘cuz you’re about to see my metronome trick.

101 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:27:52pm

I posted this on a previous thread, but Theodore Dalrymple really does answer Assange’s ideas very well:

The idea behind WikiLeaks is that life should be an open book, that everything that is said and done should be immediately revealed to everybody, that there should be no secret agreements, deeds, or conversations. In the fanatically puritanical view of WikiLeaks, no one and no organization should have anything to hide. It is scarcely worth arguing against such a childish view of life.

The actual effect of WikiLeaks is likely to be profound and precisely the opposite of what it supposedly sets out to achieve. Far from making for a more open world, it could make for a much more closed one. Secrecy, or rather the possibility of secrecy, is not the enemy but the precondition of frankness. WikiLeaks will sow distrust and fear, indeed paranoia; people will be increasingly unwilling to express themselves openly in case what they say is taken down by their interlocutor and used in evidence against them, not necessarily by the interlocutor himself. This could happen not in the official sphere alone, but also in the private sphere, which it works to destroy. An Iron Curtain could descend, not just on Eastern Europe, but over the whole world. A reign of assumed virtue would be imposed, in which people would say only what they do not think and think only what they do not say.

The dissolution of the distinction between the private and public spheres was one of the great aims of totalitarianism. Opening and reading other people’s e-mails is not different in principle from opening and reading other people’s letters. In effect, WikiLeaks has assumed the role of censor to the world, a role that requires an astonishing moral grandiosity and arrogance to have assumed. Even if some evils are exposed by it, or some necessary truths aired, the end does not justify the means.

102 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:29:00pm

re: #100 Slumbering Behemoth

If I want that, I’ll just browse /y/*. The funny thing about my school filtering 4chan as “porn” is that the filter actually skips over the boards that actually are. ;D

103 calochortus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:29:07pm

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

The difficulty is finding the balance between public and private. There just isn’t a bright line.

104 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:30:24pm

re: #99 Fozzie Bear

it took me a minute, but good one.

Yeah, only took me a minute as well. Should probably get me some of that “enhancement” cream.

105 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:31:41pm

re: #104 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, only took me a minute as well. Should probably get me some of that “enhancement” cream.

better get two tubes

106 Linden Arden  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:31:41pm

re: #97 lostlakehiker

Great post!

Let me expand it a bit…. The fine man and SoS Colin Powell testified to the UN that WMD were being built in Iraq on “mobile” labs….


Is that good or bad? Should a military hero like Powell say such with impunity?

107 nhand42  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:31:48pm

re: #97 lostlakehiker

Think about a world in which no one ever speaks frankly, even in private.

Wikileaks is exposing corrupt government behaviour, not your private spoken conversations.

Glenn lays out 9 revelations from Wikileaks, showing systemic corruption by the US government.


(1) the U.S. military formally adopted a policy of turning a blind eye to systematic, pervasive torture and other abuses by Iraqi forces;

(2) the State Department threatened Germany not to criminally investigate the CIA’s kidnapping of one of its citizens who turned out to be completely innocent;

(3) the State Department under Bush and Obama applied continuous pressure on the Spanish Government to suppress investigations of the CIA’s torture of its citizens and the 2003 killing of a Spanish photojournalist when the U.S. military fired on the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad (see The Philadelphia Inquirer’s Will Bunch today about this: “The day Barack Obama Lied to me”);

(4) the British Government privately promised to shield Bush officials from embarrassment as part of its Iraq War “investigation”;

(5) there were at least 15,000 people killed in Iraq that were previously uncounted;

(6) “American leaders lied, knowingly, to the American public, to American troops, and to the world” about the Iraq war as it was prosecuted, a conclusion the Post’s own former Baghdad Bureau Chief wrote was proven by the WikiLeaks documents;

(7) the U.S.’s own Ambassador concluded that the July, 2009 removal of the Honduran President was illegal — a coup — but the State Department did not want to conclude that and thus ignored it until it was too late to matter;

(8) U.S. and British officials colluded to allow the U.S. to keep cluster bombs on British soil even though Britain had signed the treaty banning such weapons, and,

(9) Hillary Clinton’s State Department ordered diplomats to collect passwords, emails, and biometric data on U.N. and other foreign officials, almost certainly in violation of the Vienna Treaty of 1961.

Instead of another two-minutes of hate against Assange, why not talk about the clear cases of corruption by the US government?

108 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:32:06pm

I continue to find it extraordinarily that everybody is dumping on Assange.

Repost:

I’ve said it before and I will say it again. It was reprehensible for Assange to publish the info. However, he didn’t cause the problem.

(yell mode on) WHO THE FUCK WAS IN CHARGE OF COMMSEC?(yell mode off)

109 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:32:45pm

re: #108 austin_blue

I continue to find it extraordinarily annoying that everybody is dumping on Assange.

Repost:

I’ve said it before and I will say it again. It was reprehensible for Assange to publish the info. However, he didn’t cause the problem.

(yell mode on) WHO THE FUCK WAS IN CHARGE OF COMMSEC?(yell mode off)

Ack!

110 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:32:59pm

re: #105 albusteve

better get two tubes

Ha! I knew somebody was looking at my web cam. First peek is free.

111 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:34:07pm

re: #108 austin_blue

I continue to find it extraordinarily that everybody is dumping on Assange.

Repost:

I’ve said it before and I will say it again. It was reprehensible for Assange to publish the info. However, he didn’t cause the problem.

(yell mode on) WHO THE FUCK WAS IN CHARGE OF COMMSEC?(yell mode off)

whatever…he had choices, and your point does not go unnoticed…word is now, the docs were basically harmless, regardless of Clintons statements…someone needs to go down, might as well be him

112 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:34:47pm

re: #108 austin_blue

I continue to find it extraordinarily that everybody is dumping on Assange.

Meh, fuck ‘em.

But as to your other point, I’m yelling right along with ya.

113 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:37:00pm

Assange wanted to be famous and now he is…we are dumping on him because he is a traitorous piece of shit…what’s the problem?

114 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:37:42pm

re: #113 albusteve

Assange wanted to be famous and now he is…we are dumping on him because he is a traitorous piece of shit…what’s the problem?

He’s not a traitor. He’s not American.

And that’s a Palin line Steve. BE CAREFUL!!! :)

115 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:37:51pm

re: #113 albusteve

Assange wanted to be famous and now he is…we are dumping on him because he is a traitorous piece of shit…what’s the problem?

The free market at work.

116 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:38:33pm

re: #113 albusteve

Assange wanted to be famous and now he is…we are dumping on him because he is a traitorous piece of shit…what’s the problem?

It’s the Judas Conundrum.

117 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:38:37pm

re: #107 nhand42

Wikileaks is exposing corrupt government behaviour, not your private spoken conversations.

Glenn lays out 9 revelations from Wikileaks, showing systemic corruption by the US government.

Instead of another two-minutes of hate against Assange, why not talk about the clear cases of corruption by the US government?

All I’m seeing there is a lot of finger pointing against the USA. There doesn’t seem to be any balance in Greenwald’s assessment. If you want to see real corrupt governments start in the Middle East and work your way north towards the Balkans and Russia.

118 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:38:43pm

re: #112 Slumbering Behemoth

Meh, fuck ‘em.

And by that I mean fuck Assange.

But as to your other point, I’m yelling right along with ya.

Also, I’m nekkid in front of my web cam right now, so if you want to see the porn-fu style “Angry Monkey Fist”, you’ll have to hurry.

119 Linden Arden  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:38:58pm

re: #113 albusteve

He betrayed Sweden or Australia?

Where is he from anyway? Not quite sure.

120 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:39:05pm

re: #115 Killgore Trout

The free market at work.

indeed, where payment is a 7.56 round….a very dangerous game

121 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:40:12pm

re: #119 Linden Arden

He betrayed Sweden or Australia?

Where is he from anyway? Not quite sure.

he’s a Swede

122 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:40:14pm

re: #117 Gus 802

All I’m seeing there is a lot of finger pointing against the USA. There doesn’t seem to be any balance in Greenwald’s assessment. If you want to see real corrupt governments start in the Middle East and work your way north towards the Balkans and Russia.

The ones that the USA willingly work with because they share interests?

123 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:40:23pm

re: #115 Killgore Trout

The free market at work.

Hey. And we’re the market and we’re responding. Where in the world is it written that Assange is immune from high criticism?

124 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:41:10pm

re: #117 Gus 802

There doesn’t seem to be any balance in Greenwald’s assessment.

What? No balance from a dude that created multiple sockpuppets to agree with himself on his own blog ala the ex-lizard stalker goons? Say it ain’t so.

125 Donna Ballard  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:41:42pm

Good Evening my fellow Lizards! I’m only going to pop in for a moment to say I sincerely hope the jerks that leaked the info to this, eh hum, person fry’s in hell for any damage he’s done and is brought to justice. RWC says we can’t grab the jerk of wikileaks and try him on espionage but dang it I sure want to fry him some how! Grrrr!

Oh and to my friends out there that are Jewish, Happy Hanukkah!

126 bratwurst  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:41:45pm

re: #121 albusteve

he’s a Swede

Um, no.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

127 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:42:29pm

re: #126 bratwurst

Um, no.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

fine, my bad

128 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:42:35pm

re: #119 Linden Arden

He betrayed Sweden or Australia?

Where is he from anyway? Not quite sure.

He is Australian. Since Australia has troops in Afghanistan and had them in Iraq, then yes he betrayed his native land.

129 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:42:48pm

re: #123 Gus 802

Hey. And we’re the market and we’re responding. Where in the world is it written that Assange is immune from high criticism?

I just checked my High Criticism Immunity book, He’s not listed.

130 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:43:29pm

re: #122 laZardo

The ones that the USA willingly work with because they share interests?

That’s why we elect the executive branch and the legislative branch. We vote for them to make those decisions for us. This includes Bush and Obama. The latter of which is currently prosecuting the war in Afghanistan and continuing CIA extraditions. The are put in power to make those decisions in the best interest of this country. Sometimes they make poor decision but those are decision that they make. We do not conduct wars by way of public opinion let alone.

131 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:43:42pm

re: #123 Gus 802

Hey. And we’re the market and we’re responding. Where in the world is it written that Assange is immune from high criticism?

No in fact he is supposed to take it, he is just a tool & leaked what he was fed.

132 prairiefire  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:43:59pm

OT ~ the movie “The Kids Are Alright” is very good. Annette Bening deserves the Oscar for Best Actress.

133 Linden Arden  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:45:25pm

re: #132 prairiefire

OT ~ the movie “The Kids Are Alright” is very good. Annette Bening deserves the Oscar for Best Actress.

She was awesome in ‘The Grifters’!


Like - really really awesome.

134 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:45:31pm

re: #124 Slumbering Behemoth

What? No balance from a dude that created multiple sockpuppets to agree with himself on his own blog ala the ex-lizard stalker goons? Say it ain’t so.

He did that?

135 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:45:34pm

re: #131 brookly red

No in fact he is supposed to take it, he is just a tool & leaked what he was fed.

Wow. Suddenly the theme to “The Twilight Zone” has become an earworm.

136 TedStriker  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:45:39pm

re: #117 Gus 802

All I’m seeing there is a lot of finger pointing against the USA. There doesn’t seem to be any balance in Greenwald’s assessment. If you want to see real corrupt governments start in the Middle East and work your way north towards the Balkans and Russia.

Compared to them, Americans are pikers.

137 albusteve  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:45:41pm

re: #131 brookly red

No in fact he is supposed to take it, he is just a tool & leaked what he was fed.

a tool for who?….some sinister movie-like character?

138 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:46:12pm

re: #128 Dark_Falcon

He is Australian. Since Australia has troops in Afghanistan and had them in Iraq, then yes he betrayed his native land.

So they should bust him for treason.

He’s nothing to the US.

And again folks, if not him, someone else. Leaks in the internet age. Going to be sooo typical. Already is.

139 TedStriker  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:46:27pm

re: #121 albusteve

he’s a Swede

Assange is an Aussie…

140 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:46:33pm

I won’t be sad to see Assange go down, but this doesn’t really solve the problem.
As Austin Blue intimated, heads should roll in the comsec community. This Manning creature had lost a stripe for assaulting another soldier and they still let him have access to a huge trove of classified documents.

Where there is motive and opportunity, others will come forward to replace Assange. What then? They can’t all be rapists.

141 prairiefire  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:46:36pm

re: #133 Linden Arden

She was awesome in ‘The Grifters’!

Like - really really awesome.

She’s pretty brave to go full frontal. That was a good, brutal movie.

142 Linden Arden  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:47:54pm

re: #141 prairiefire

She’s pretty brave to go full frontal. That was a good, brutal movie.

And in “American Beauty”?

You got my woman here! (Anne Hathaway #2)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

143 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:48:45pm

re: #140 Shiplord Kirel

I won’t be sad to see Assange go down, but this doesn’t really solve the problem.
As Austin Blue intimated, heads should roll in the comsec community. This Manning creature had lost a stripe for assaulting another soldier and they still let him have access to a huge trove of classified documents.

Where there is motive and opportunity, others will come forward to replace Assange. What then? They can’t all be rapists.

Ding ding ding ding! We have a winnah!

That’s the rub.

144 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:49:04pm

re: #135 austin_blue

re: #137 albusteve

OK, yeah there is no information ever distributed & everything is exactly as the media says it is… if that is how you see it hey who am I to cast doubt?

145 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:49:59pm

“This man is going to be harassed by the matrix, however is too late now the 250.00 pages are public domain.The criminals that are running this system are to be tried for war crimes, crimes against humanity, Cia & the government ran cartel who has been exercising human sacrifice to keep their power.We have been oblivious to the system until recently & this documents are putting out the true nature of this matrix.We ahave been cheated by this so call government controlled by Zionists.”

-one of the user comments from the story

146 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:50:27pm

re: #145 SpaceJesus

“This man is going to be harassed by the matrix, however is too late now the 250.00 pages are public domain.The criminals that are running this system are to be tried for war crimes, crimes against humanity, Cia & the government ran cartel who has been exercising human sacrifice to keep their power.We have been oblivious to the system until recently & this documents are putting out the true nature of this matrix.We ahave been cheated by this so call government controlled by Zionists.”

-one of the user comments from the story

Figures.

147 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:50:46pm

re: #138 Stanley Sea

So they should bust him for treason.

He’s nothing to the US.

And again folks, if not him, someone else. Leaks in the internet age. Going to be sooo typical. Already is.

That can be cut back. Improve the Feds ability to track activity online. Won’t get rid of the problem but it’ll make nailing leakers easier. After a few of them get 10-year prison sentences, leaks will be greatly reduced.

148 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:51:49pm

Anybody got any more info on the actual charges? What’s the story there?

149 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:52:00pm

re: #145 SpaceJesus

SPELLING IS A TOOL OF DA MAN!

150 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:52:02pm

re: #107 nhand42

Wikileaks is exposing corrupt government behaviour, not your private spoken conversations.

Glenn lays out 9 revelations from Wikileaks, showing systemic corruption by the US government.

Instead of another two-minutes of hate against Assange, why not talk about the clear cases of corruption by the US government?

The same point I was making about private life in the private sphere applies to diplomacy. Woodrow Wilson’s dream of open covenants, openly arrived at, was a foolish dream.

It’s not just corruption which has been exposed. It’s weaknesses of certain of our friends, and of certain other people who are not friends but with whom we have found some sort of common ground. Diplomacy requires getting along with all types in a very imperfect world.

Now, nobody can trust us to keep their dirty little secrets secret. There are worse actors on the world scene than the U.S., but they keep their dirty laundry indoors. By the fact that those who air a little of it end up messily dead, you can extrapolate that there’s a lot of it.

The silver lining on this cloud doesn’t begin to shine bright enough to compensate for the shadow it casts over all our dealings. Not a shadow of disrepute; the world knows that we are not Mr. Clean. A shadow of distrust.

Stalin was toying with an alliance with Britain and France, before concluding that those powers would never be able to get their act together. So he settled on a pact with the Nazis: they’d each take half of Poland. Real dangers, grave dangers, grow more real when our diplomacy is hamstrung.

These disclosures do real harm.

151 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:52:07pm

re: #145 SpaceJesus

There it is again, the Zionist Matrix.

152 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:52:57pm

re: #145 SpaceJesus

“This man is going to be harassed by the matrix, however is too late now the 250.00 pages are public domain.The criminals that are running this system are to be tried for war crimes, crimes against humanity, Cia & the government ran cartel who has been exercising human sacrifice to keep their power.We have been oblivious to the system until recently & this documents are putting out the true nature of this matrix.We ahave been cheated by this so call government controlled by Zionists.”

-one of the user comments from the story

The Matrix is Jewish? That makes no sense. If it were Jewish then it would have shut down every Friday at sunset.

///

153 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:53:20pm

re: #151 jaunte

There it is again, the Zionist Matrix.

AIPAC, Bilderbergs, CFR oh my!!11ty

154 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:54:15pm

re: #152 Dark_Falcon

The Matrix can make you think it’s on, when it’s off.

155 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:54:45pm

re: #134 Gus 802

He did that?

If this is the same guy, then yes.

156 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:55:10pm

re: #152 Dark_Falcon


A Jewish version of the Matrix movie would be hilarious.

157 prairiefire  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:55:14pm

Here is a run down on the White House Christmas decorations. [Link: news.yahoo.com…]
Fun to make a guess on the next outrage.
A larger than life version of Bo made from black and white pipe cleaners?

158 darthstar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:55:41pm

Holy shit! I turned one year old as a lizard today! That explains why I just shit myself.
13,000+ comments
28,000- karma

It’s been a good year. Now someone bring me a bottle…and make it bourbon! None of that milk shit.

159 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:55:50pm

re: #155 Slumbering Behemoth

If this is the same guy, then yes.

Oh yeah. That’s him.

160 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:56:39pm

re: #158 darthstar

Holy shit! I turned one year old as a lizard today! That explains why I just shit myself.
13,000+ comments
28,000- karma

It’s been a good year. Now someone bring me a bottle…and make it bourbon! None of that milk shit.

You wanna be weaned?

Have a beer, buddy. Bourbon when you hit the two year mark!

161 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:57:02pm

re: #154 jaunte

The Matrix can make you think it’s on, when it’s off.

so can shutnex…..

162 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:57:04pm

re: #155 Slumbering Behemoth

If this is the same guy, then yes.

I gave him a second look recently. Things change. He;s still a dishonest and unrealistic creep. Complete dick, total contempt, and fuck Andrew Sullivan too.

163 nhand42  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:58:04pm

re: #117 Gus 802

All I’m seeing there is a lot of finger pointing against the USA.

That’s because they’re leaked USA cables.


There doesn’t seem to be any balance in Greenwald’s assessment. If you want to see real corrupt governments start in the Middle East and work your way north towards the Balkans and Russia.

The “but those guys are worse” argument is weak sauce.

164 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:58:53pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

I gave him a second look recently. Things change. He;s still a dishonest and unrealistic creep. Complete dick, total contempt, and fuck Andrew Sullivan too.

What mindfart did Sullivan put out this time?

165 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:59:24pm

re: #163 nhand42

That’s because they’re leaked USA cables.

The “but those guys are worse” argument is weak sauce.

Works for me. Sorry, but I choose sides. I realize that the USA can be royal clusterfuck of a place to live sometimes but it’s still my country. I picked a side and it’s the USA. So yes, sorry but those guys are worse. I’m a citizen of the USA not the world.

166 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:59:41pm

re: #156 SpaceJesus

A Jewish version of the Matrix movie would be hilarious.

Hebrew Hammer + Bullet Time = :D

167 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 7:59:43pm

Planning a trip to Germany? Don’t bring your sense of humor, then.

Humorless German Customs Officials Seize Fake Canned Unicorn Meat

Online retailer Think Geek is causing a stir with one of its products: canned unicorn meat. The faux Spam-like joke product has been detained at the German border by customs officials who are considering it “meat of a rare animal,” the company wrote on its blog.

The best part is, there’s no meat in the can, just a stuffed toy animal.

168 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:01:21pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

What mindfart did Sullivan put out this time?


Just generally speaking. I gave Sully a second look after the election when the conservatives shit the bed and went insane. Sullivan was still ranting about Palin’s baby and pardoning Palestinian terrorism. He’s useless.

169 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:01:44pm

re: #167 Slumbering Behemoth

Planning a trip to Germany? Don’t bring your sense of humor, then.

Humorless German Customs Officials Seize Fake Canned Unicorn Meat

The best part is, there’s no meat in the can, just a stuffed toy animal.

well thats the way it goes with unicorns… if you believe(d) you just look foolish…

170 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:01:52pm

re: #167 Slumbering Behemoth

You should watch the German episode of Jeremy Clarkson Meets The Neighbors. Their “scheduled laugh sessions” are creepy as fuck.

171 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:02:18pm

re: #167 Slumbering Behemoth

Planning a trip to Germany? Don’t bring your sense of humor, then.

Humorless German Customs Officials Seize Fake Canned Unicorn Meat

The best part is, there’s no meat in the can, just a stuffed toy animal.

That one has farted its last rainbow. >:D

172 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:02:39pm

re: #165 Gus 802

InB4 the “like a stupid redneck rooting for his favorite NASCAR driver, hurr hurr” idiotic blather.

+1

173 darthstar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:03:38pm

re: #167 Slumbering Behemoth

Planning a trip to Germany? Don’t bring your sense of humor, then.

Humorless German Customs Officials Seize Fake Canned Unicorn Meat

The best part is, there’s no meat in the can, just a stuffed toy animal.



Unicorn meat is good shit. Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it. “Love” tastes just like bacon, only happier.

174 nhand42  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:04:03pm

re: #150 lostlakehiker

The same point I was making about private life in the private sphere applies to diplomacy. Woodrow Wilson’s dream of open covenants, openly arrived at, was a foolish dream.

There’s a difference between private diplomacy and systemic government corruption hidden by unjustified confidentiality.

There are real examples here of government corruption. Instead of trying to deflect the conversation with vague hand-waving, why not talk about the corruption?

175 darthstar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:04:18pm

re: #173 darthstar

Bigger
Image: e5a7_canned_unicorn_meat_parts_diagram.jpg

176 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:04:20pm

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

That one has farted its last rainbow. >:D

But we can rebuild it. Faster, stronger, rainbowy-er.

177 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:05:06pm

re: #173 darthstar

Sadly, rainbows taste like shit. I expected them to taste like Skittles.

178 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:05:44pm

re: #168 Killgore Trout

Just generally speaking. I gave Sully a second look after the election when the conservatives shit the bed and went insane. Sullivan was still ranting about Palin’s baby and pardoning Palestinian terrorism. He’s useless.

When the BDS fully took hold, Sullivan entered a delirium that he has never come out of.

179 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:05:54pm

I hope that whatever happens, justice is done within the letter of the law and the if Assange is guilty of whatever crimes he is charged with that he suffers a reasonable amount of punishment for them…

180 webevintage  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:06:00pm

re: #157 prairiefire

Here is a run down on the White House Christmas decorations. [Link: news.yahoo.com…]
Fun to make a guess on the next outrage.
A larger than life version of Bo made from black and white pipe cleaners?

DAMN!
I thought there would be a picture of the mutant radioactive Godzilla Bo.

181 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:06:08pm

re: #177 Slumbering Behemoth

Sadly, rainbows taste like shit. I expected them to taste like Skittles.

just be glad you didn’t sample the kool aid ;)

182 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:07:35pm

re: #158 darthstar

Holy shit! I turned one year old as a lizard today! That explains why I just shit myself.
13,000+ comments
28,000- karma

It’s been a good year. Now someone bring me a bottle…and make it bourbon! None of that milk shit.

Crap, I’m only up to 17,893 and I’ve only got another two months left till my own one year anniversary…

183 nhand42  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:07:42pm

re: #165 Gus 802

Works for me. Sorry, but I choose sides. I realize that the USA can be royal clusterfuck of a place to live sometimes but it’s still my country. I picked a side and it’s the USA. So yes, sorry but those guys are worse. I’m a citizen of the USA not the world.

And it’s a mighty fine country. But one of the things that made it mighty fine was its distrust of government, its investigative journalists who rooted out corruption, and its upstanding citizens who pilloried and destroyed corrupt politicians.

Yet here we have proof of government corruption, and you guys are openly siding with the government and shooting the messenger. What gives?

You can still have a great country if you send corrupt politicians to the cells they so rightly deserve. Arguably you’d have an even greater country as a result.

184 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:07:48pm

re: #172 Slumbering Behemoth

InB4 the “like a stupid redneck rooting for his favorite NASCAR driver, hurr hurr” idiotic blather.

+1

Yep. That’s me, the LGF redneck. ;)

Glenn Greenwald can take his fractured, biased, assessment and anti-Israeli ideas and shove them up his ass.

Give me Christopher Hitchens any day who may delve into some criticism of Israel but at least provides a deeper understanding and most of all, balance.

185 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:07:48pm

re: #175 darthstar

Bigger
Image: e5a7_canned_unicorn_meat_parts_diagram.jpg

Giggles goes great with A-1.

186 boxhead  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:07:49pm

re: #177 Slumbering Behemoth

Sadly, rainbows taste like shit. I expected them to taste like Skittles.

I thought it was SPAM repackaged… lol

187 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:08:00pm

re: #174 nhand42

There’s a difference between private diplomacy and systemic government corruption hidden by unjustified confidentiality.

There are real examples here of government corruption. Instead of trying to deflect the conversation with vague hand-waving, why not talk about the corruption?

So I heard Rangel finally got censured…

188 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:09:21pm

re: #184 Gus 802

Give me Christopher Hitchens any day who may delve into some criticism of Israel but at least provides a deeper understanding and most of all, balance.

With a sort of Churchill-esque quasi-drunk stern-ness about it.

/and much fewer hyphens.

189 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:09:23pm

re: #187 laZardo

He chose not to accept it.

190 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:09:38pm

re: #183 nhand42

And it’s a mighty fine country. But one of the things that made it mighty fine was its distrust of government, its investigative journalists who rooted out corruption, and its upstanding citizens who pilloried and destroyed corrupt politicians.

Yet here we have proof of government corruption, and you guys are openly siding with the government and shooting the messenger. What gives?

You can still have a great country if you send corrupt politicians to the cells they so rightly deserve. Arguably you’d have an even greater country as a result.

Just ask Tom DeLay!

191 brookly red  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:09:41pm

re: #186 boxhead

I thought it was SPAM repackaged… lol

no, that is marketed under the brand name “Lame Duck”

192 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:09:49pm

re: #174 nhand42

There’s a difference between private diplomacy and systemic government corruption hidden by unjustified confidentiality.

There are real examples here of government corruption. Instead of trying to deflect the conversation with vague hand-waving, why not talk about the corruption?

I don’t really think of most of those things you posted as corruption. Lies and tricks, but not a case of stolen monies. If you look through any war, you’ll find nasty tricks kept out of sight. We’re fighting a war, some that fighting takes place in the shadows.

193 laZardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:11:22pm

re: #189 jaunte

I read Austin’s post under that in the context of yours for some reason.

194 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:12:51pm

re: #193 laZardo

I’m betting Rick Perry is going to pardon DeLay.

195 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:12:54pm

re: #180 webevintage

DAMN!
I thought there would be a picture of the mutant radioactive Godzilla Bo.

Breitbart hasn’t received the photos yet. JUST WAIT.

196 darthstar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:13:43pm

re: #176 laZardo

But we can rebuild it. Faster, stronger, rainbowy-er.

Okay…that’s just fucking fun.

197 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:13:53pm

re: #194 jaunte

I’m betting Rick Perry is going to pardon DeLay.

Gaaaahhh!

198 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:14:22pm

re: #188 laZardo

With a sort of Churchill-esque quasi-drunk stern-ness about it.

/and much fewer hyphens.

And one of the sharpest minds of this century.

199 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:14:49pm

re: #197 austin_blue

Gaaahhh!

I’ll echo that. Gaaaahhh!

200 nhand42  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:15:08pm

re: #192 Dark_Falcon

I don’t really think of most of those things you posted as corruption.

Then talk about those remaining things that you do really think of as corruption.

201 boxhead  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:17:24pm

UCLA just got ROBBED…. Now I know why Kansas won 64 straight at home……

202 boxhead  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:18:08pm

re: #191 brookly red

no, that is marketed under the brand name “Lame Duck”

I think I am missing the connection… :p

203 elizajane  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:19:01pm

re: #168 Killgore Trout

Just generally speaking. I gave Sully a second look after the election when the conservatives shit the bed and went insane. Sullivan was still ranting about Palin’s baby and pardoning Palestinian terrorism. He’s useless.

Gosh, completely disagree on that one. Sullivan’s a quirky, sometimes obsessive but really individual writer who can generally stand outside the usual boring partisan ruts. His Palin’s baby thing is often mischaracterized: he says, correctly, that the story as she tells it is wildly implausible or else recklessly irresponsible, tending toward the latter. On Palastinians, well, once you’ve spent a few months reading The Guardian on this issue you decide to just not pay attention to those posts on The Dish because they might make you insane (otherwise you would also not be able to have any academic friends in Britain).
I love The Dish, read it every day, and guess the View from Your Window competitions too.

204 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:21:50pm

re: #184 Gus 802

I do love South Park.

205 boxhead  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:22:46pm

re: #203 elizajane


I love The Dish, read it every day, and guess the View from Your Window competitions too.

I missed winning by a couple of blocks when the picture was from Kailua, Hawaii.

I like Sully… mostly… At least it appears he calls it as he sees it.

206 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:23:10pm

re: #203 elizajane

Gosh, completely disagree on that one. Sullivan’s a quirky, sometimes obsessive but really individual writer who can generally stand outside the usual boring partisan ruts. His Palin’s baby thing is often mischaracterized: he says, correctly, that the story as she tells it is wildly implausible or else recklessly irresponsible, tending toward the latter. On Palastinians, well, once you’ve spent a few months reading The Guardian on this issue you decide to just not pay attention to those posts on The Dish because they might make you insane (otherwise you would also not be able to have any academic friends in Britain).
I love The Dish, read it every day, and guess the View from Your Window competitions too.

You said it. :)

207 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:23:26pm

Here’s some corruption exposed by Wikileaks:

Corruption within the Afghan government is plaguing the effort to stabilize the nation and fight the Taliban influence. The diplomatic cables puts this struggle starkly, especially when dealing with Kandahar Provincial Council Chief (and the president’s brother) Ahmed Wali Karzai. “The meeting with (Karzai) highlights one of our major challenges in Afghanistan: how to fight corruption and connect the people to their government, when the key government officials are themselves corrupt,” reads one dispatch, labeled Confidential. During the meeting, State Department officials and the council chief discuss how the lack of electricity hampers the government’s legitimacy. But the dispatch notes: “Given Ahmed Wali Karzai’s reputation for shady dealings, his recommendations for large, costly infrastructure projects should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism.”

Likewise, when it comes to fighting the Taliban, Afghan government officials’ motives are cast into doubt. Karzai lobbied for more local control over hiring security guards. But the Confidential cable notes that Karzai “is understood to have a stake in private security contracting” and is trying “to exert control over how contracts are awarded in the province.”

As we said in August, the problem is that corruption flies in the face of the counterinsurgency effort that the Obama administration is following, which requires a reliable indigenous partner to which it can hand legitimate control. With the politicians fighting and the rehabilitation of the nation lagging, the military effort could stall or prove futile. With the public release of these diplomatic cables, the situation seems even more dire―and damaging to U.S. efforts. [Link: www.popularmechanics.com…]

208 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:24:14pm

Solar vox, the new miracle of electricity….

Liveleak Video

Suck it, Kanye.
209 prairiefire  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:24:37pm

re: #203 elizajane

Regarding Sarah’s irresponsibility when she made a long plane trip after her water broke. Why did she do that? Was she freaking out? Was she trying to stay in control of things? The worst thought that crosses my mind was that she knew his development was compromised because of Down syndrome and she did not give the infant as much regard as a healthy one.
I find that last one too ugly, so I’ve decided against it.

210 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:25:39pm

re: #209 prairiefire

Dont.get.me.started.

I’ll ruin my LGF rep.

ha!!!!

211 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:26:43pm

re: #208 Killgore Trout

Ned!

212 lazardo  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:27:14pm

re: #211 Slumbering Behemoth

IT’S COMING RIGHT FOR US

213 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:27:53pm

re: #210 Stanley Sea

Dont.get.me.started.

I’ll ruin my LGF rep.

ha!!!

According to Sr. Sarah, this DS child was one month premature. This is the most reckless thing a mother could do. Or she just lied about it.

Reckless, crazy, liar lady.

Women know.

214 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:28:00pm

re: #211 Slumbering Behemoth

Ned!

He has quite the singing voice.

Youtube Video
215 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:28:05pm

re: #208 Killgore Trout

Solar vox, the new miracle of electricity…

[Video]
Suck it, Kanye.

Where’s Peter Frampton?

/

216 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:29:31pm

re: #215 Gus 802

Looks like he’s in Cincinnati
[Link: twitter.com…]

217 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:30:51pm

re: #215 Gus 802

Where’s Peter Frampton?

/

He’s sitting somewhere going bald.

218 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:31:10pm

re: #207 jaunte

The problem is that many (but not all) Afghans have a different idea than we do about ‘right’ when it comes to money. For them, the good is about getting the most for one’s own tribe. You support your kin first and foremost. Everyone else is a distant second.

219 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:31:22pm

re: #217 Killgore Trout

He’s sitting somewhere going bald.

Balding and bloated!

/

220 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:32:17pm

Ha! It goes to 11!

/imadork

221 prairiefire  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:32:32pm

re: #217 Killgore Trout

He’s sitting somewhere going bald.

All those golden curls, gonesky.

My hubby’s beautiful jet black hair is becoming less and less. Oh well, he’s putting up with my butt sliding down the back of my legs.

222 MisterCookie  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:32:54pm

If he limited document releases to genuine, bona fide evidence of corruption, then I’d be praising Assange as a hero. Instead, for no reason other to cause embarrassment to every one involved, he’s also helpfully dumped diplomatic cables that contain no harmful information, as well as previously releasing confidential information about informants. The behavior is more like an anarchist than a responsible government watchdog.

In other news, why the fuck isn’t that information about the extra 15,000 Iraqis killed a bigger story? All I’m seeing is fucking tabloid crap about how the US doesn’t like Putin - big shocker there.

223 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:34:04pm

re: #221 prairiefire

All those golden curls, gonesky.

My hubby’s beautiful jet black hair is becoming less and less. Oh well, he’s putting up with my butt sliding down the back of my legs.

Heh. Good for you. Even I wouldn’t put up with me and I can’t expect anyone else to.

224 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:34:25pm

re: #218 Dark_Falcon

That’s a widespread trait around the world.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:34:52pm

re: #209 prairiefire

Regarding Sarah’s irresponsibility when she made a long plane trip after her water broke. Why did she do that? Was she freaking out? Was she trying to stay in control of things? The worst thought that crosses my mind was that she knew his development was compromised because of Down syndrome and she did not give the infant as much regard as a healthy one.
I find that last one too ugly, so I’ve decided against it.

She may have been freaking out, she may have wanted her own doctor. It’s an odd story, but…eh. My own speculation runs to the idea that it may have had something to do with their insurance situation. My understanding is that she’s eligible for tribal healthcare with her pregnancies, through Todd.

226 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:34:59pm

Heh.

Companies don’t need oversight; the free market will self-regulate.

Also we don’t need a police force. Murderers and thieves will be ostracised from society, the self-imposed financial burden will be too great, and they will eventually realise the errors of their ways and make amends without any coercion.

Also we don’t need a military. Countries won’t attack us for fear of upsetting foreign trade. The militaries of other countries will see the inherent danger in “centralised government” and self-regulate themselves into peaceful deeds.

Libertarians are geniuses. The free market fixes everything. Blue collar crime, white collar crime, it’s all solved by doing nothing!

227 elizajane  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:35:20pm

re: #222 MisterCookie

If he limited document releases to genuine, bona fide evidence of corruption, then I’d be praising Assange as a hero. Instead, for no reason other to cause embarrassment to every one involved, he’s also helpfully dumped diplomatic cables that contain no harmful information, as well as previously releasing confidential information about informants. The behavior is more like an anarchist than a responsible government watchdog.

In other news, why the fuck isn’t that information about the extra 15,000 Iraqis killed a bigger story? All I’m seeing is fucking tabloid crap about how the US doesn’t like Putin - big shocker there.

The “extra 15,000 dead Iraqis”— not a big story because everybody on the left knew the figures were fudged (especially if they read any British newspapers) and nobody on the right could give a toss.

228 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:36:01pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

I’d go with the first thought: “airplanes fast, must get home.”

229 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:36:05pm

So…did anyone follow the return of LeBron to the den of Cleveland?

He kicked ass, and is still an ass. I’m waiting for reports/photos of the Cleveland fan’s responses. Apparently it was 1.00 beer night. Can’t wait for the reports. heh

230 prairiefire  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:36:47pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s a good point about the specific hospital requirement for insurance purposes.

231 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:36:59pm

re: #228 jaunte

I’d go with the first thought: “airplanes fast, must get home.”

IDIOT.

232 MisterCookie  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:37:06pm

re: #227 elizajane

A disturbingly accurate assessment =

233 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:37:12pm

re: #231 Stanley Sea

IDIOT.

Sr. Sarah, that is. Sorry!

234 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:37:46pm

re: #231 Stanley Sea

True. People do strange things in their own medical emergencies.

235 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:37:48pm

re: #230 prairiefire

That’s a good point about the specific hospital requirement for insurance purposes.

And it’s BS.

BS. She was Gov. I bet she had the bestest health insurance.

236 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:38:02pm

re: #174 nhand42

There’s a difference between private diplomacy and systemic government corruption hidden by unjustified confidentiality.

There are real examples here of government corruption. Instead of trying to deflect the conversation with vague hand-waving, why not talk about the corruption?

You have your view, and I have mine. I’m not deflecting the conversation. We’re having a plain old collision here. I disagree with you about the merits of dumping all this stuff. You see the end of exposing corruption as so important that it justifies all sorts of collateral damage. I don’t.

It’s like, go ahead and burn the crops in the fields if you’re at war, but don’t cut down olive orchards. Assange is clear-cutting them.

237 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:38:02pm

re: #222 MisterCookie

If he limited document releases to genuine, bona fide evidence of corruption, then I’d be praising Assange as a hero. Instead, for no reason other to cause embarrassment to every one involved, he’s also helpfully dumped diplomatic cables that contain no harmful information, as well as previously releasing confidential information about informants. The behavior is more like an anarchist than a responsible government watchdog.

In other news, why the fuck isn’t that information about the extra 15,000 Iraqis killed a bigger story? All I’m seeing is fucking tabloid crap about how the US doesn’t like Putin - big shocker there.

Because the far-left put out so many “ELEVENTY MILLION!!!11” casualty reports out of Iraq that it didn’t seem very bad. Also, once you get past 100,000, the exact number of deaths doesn’t seem quite as important. “One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic” has some validity in terms of human thought.

238 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:39:00pm

re: #107 nhand42

re: #107 nhand42

Wikileaks is exposing corrupt government behaviour, not your private spoken conversations.

Glenn lays out 9 revelations from Wikileaks, showing systemic corruption by the US government.

Instead of another two-minutes of hate against Assange, why not talk about the clear cases of corruption by the US government?

Does the US military have any authority to direct the actions and activities of the armed forces of another sovereign nation?

(1) the U.S. military formally adopted a policy of turning a blind eye to systematic, pervasive torture and other abuses by Iraqi forces;


Why did Germany cave?

(2) the State Department threatened Germany not to criminally investigate the CIA’s kidnapping of one of its citizens who turned out to be completely innocent;


Why did the military fire on the hotel? Was it for the purpose of killing the photojournalist, or was he embedded with a bunch of folks the US military was trying to get?

(3) the State Department under Bush and Obama applied continuous pressure on the Spanish Government to suppress investigations of the CIA’s torture of its citizens and the 2003 killing of a Spanish photojournalist when the U.S. military fired on the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad (see The Philadelphia Inquirer’s Will Bunch today about this: “The day Barack Obama Lied to me”);


If the British promised this, how is this action US corruption?

(4) the British Government privately promised to shield Bush officials from embarrassment as part of its Iraq War “investigation”;


I haven’t followed this.

(5) there were at least 15,000 people killed in Iraq that were previously uncounted;


This is a general statement. What portions of the leaks are you using to back this up? Please don’t tell me to go look it up myself - you made the statement, provide the information, please.

(6) “American leaders lied, knowingly, to the American public, to American troops, and to the world” about the Iraq war as it was prosecuted, a conclusion the Post’s own former Baghdad Bureau Chief wrote was proven by the WikiLeaks documents;


What does it mean when you say the State Dept “did not want to conclude that”? Was there a general statement from someone that they didn’t want to come to this conclusion?

(7) the U.S.’s own Ambassador concluded that the July, 2009 removal of the Honduran President was illegal — a coup — but the State Department did not want to conclude that and thus ignored it until it was too late to matter;


If the British signed a treaty and allowed cluster bombs in spite of it, how is that US corruption? The US will act in what it believes to be its best self-interest, as any other country would do. If Britain kept the bombs in spite of a treaty, how is that corruption in the US gov’t?

(8) U.S. and British officials colluded to allow the U.S. to keep cluster bombs on British soil even though Britain had signed the treaty banning such weapons, and


Hilary Clinton is damned smart. It may be an embarrassing revelation, but surely before doing this, she would have figured out (or had staff figure out) if this action violated any sort of treaty.

(9) Hillary Clinton’s State Department ordered diplomats to collect passwords, emails, and biometric data on U.N. and other foreign officials, almost certainly in violation of the Vienna Treaty of 1961.
239 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:39:03pm

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

Because the far-left put out so many “ELEVENTY MILLION!!!11” casualty reports out of Iraq that it didn’t seem very bad. Also, once you get past 100,000, the exact number of deaths doesn’t seem quite as important. “One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic” has some validity in terms of human thought.

GAH

240 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:41:27pm

Seems that as Assange is going away the rest of the Wikileaks people want to keep going. I made a page on an article in Der Spiegel about their desire to create a Wikileaks competitor.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

241 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:44:23pm

re: #239 Stanley Sea

GAH

You cannot in a sane mind reconcile this statement with 6 million.

Sorry, that was BAD, but wtf. Human beings especially fucking civilians count. No matter the damn number.

242 nhand42  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:45:30pm

re: #236 lostlakehiker

You have your view, and I have mine. I’m not deflecting the conversation. We’re having a plain old collision here. I disagree with you about the merits of dumping all this stuff. You see the end of exposing corruption as so important that it justifies all sorts of collateral damage. I don’t.

What collateral damage? Haven’t all of the talking-heads been saying there’s “Nothing New” for the past couple of days?

One moment it’s “Nothing New” and the next it’s “The Most Terrible Release of Secrets That’s Ever Happened… Kill Him For Treason”.

243 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:46:22pm

re: #239 Stanley Sea

GAH

I’m just trying to answer the question. Did I do something wrong?

244 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:48:24pm

Iraq’s Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves

Since the Saddam Hussein regime was overthrown in May, 270 mass graves have been reported. By mid-January, 2004, the number of confirmed sites climbed to fifty-three. Some graves hold a few dozen bodies—their arms lashed together and the bullet holes in the backs of skulls testimony to their execution. Other graves go on for hundreds of meters, densely packed with thousands of bodies.

“We’ve already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves,” said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein’s regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. “Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been ‘disappeared’ by the Iraqi government over the past two decades,” said the group in a statement in May. “Many of these ‘disappeared’ are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq.”

If these numbers prove accurate, they represent a crime against humanity surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot’s Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II.

245 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:48:44pm

re: #243 Dark_Falcon

Did I do something wrong?

It’s called “Speaking While Conservative”, and it’s a capital offense.
/kidding everyone, just kidding

246 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:48:49pm

Seems like a convenient charge in an attempt to shut him up.

247 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:49:53pm

Babies found in Iraqi mass grave

A mass grave being excavated in a north Iraqi village has yielded evidence that Iraqi forces executed women and children under Saddam Hussein.

US-led investigators have located nine trenches in Hatra containing hundreds of bodies believed to be Kurds killed during the repression of the 1980s.

The skeletons of unborn babies and toddlers clutching toys are being unearthed, the investigators said.

They are seeking evidence to try Saddam Hussein for crimes against humanity.

248 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:49:58pm

re: #243 Dark_Falcon

I’m just trying to answer the question. Did I do something wrong?

The Sho’ah.

249 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:50:31pm

re: #243 Dark_Falcon

I’m just trying to answer the question. Did I do something wrong?

DF, I love you, you know I do. But sometimes you are cold. I’m a bleeding heart liberal, so we will clash.

250 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:50:36pm

re: #244 Gus 802

Yeah, but the Iraqi people are far worse of now since we went in and fucked up their country.
///9_9

251 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:51:40pm

re: #247 Gus 802

Damned if you do something, and damned if you don’t.

252 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:52:30pm

re: #250 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, but the Iraqi people are far worse of now since we went in and fucked up their country.
///9_9

Clearly our letters to Saddam weren’t worded strongly enough. Maybe we should have kept the sanctions in place. You know. The sanctions that resulted in how many millions dead? Their claim not mine.

253 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:53:38pm

re: #250 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, but the Iraqi people are far worse of now since we went in and fucked up their country.
///9_9

Pity we didn’t give a shit what Saddam was doing to his people for thirty-odd years.

254 austin_blue  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:54:26pm

Well, folks, I am going to toddle off and get some rack time. Good night to all Lizardi, and have sweet dreams.

255 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:54:27pm

re: #250 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, but the Iraqi people are far worse of now since we went in and fucked up their country.
///9_9

They are not, in so many ways any better. Did the democratic elections ever finish? No. Do they have 24 hour power? No. etc.etc.etc.

Did we pay for the war with their oil profits….NO.

I hate the Iraq fiasco. What a quagmire.

256 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:54:49pm

re: #250 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, but the Iraqi people are far worse of now since we went in and fucked up their country.
///9_9

Yes, but the “those guys are worse” argument is weak sauce.
/ / / /

Yes, 15,000 more dead than previously reported is awful, and very very sad, and we all it were not so.

400,000 in mass graves by the Saddam regime - just that much worse, and how many MORE than 15,000 would be dead now?

257 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:54:51pm

re: #251 jaunte

If the end result is that the Iraqi people no longer have to live under such a hideous, murderous regime, then I don’t give a damn who thinks the US is the bad guy in this. Those people can go get fucked.

258 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:55:48pm

re: #257 Slumbering Behemoth

If the end result is that the Iraqi people no longer have to live under such a hideous, murderous regime, then I don’t give a damn who thinks the US is the bad guy in this. Those people can go get fucked.

I’m with ya.

259 webevintage  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:55:54pm

re: #213 Stanley Sea

According to Sr. Sarah, this DS child was one month premature. This is the most reckless thing a mother could do. Or she just lied about it.

Reckless, crazy, liar lady.

Women know.

Indeed we do….

(though maybe after 4 kids it becomes routine?)

260 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:55:56pm

re: #257 Slumbering Behemoth

If the end result is that the Iraqi people no longer have to live under such a hideous, murderous regime, then I don’t give a damn who thinks the US is the bad guy in this. Those people can go get fucked.

Elitist!
/

261 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:56:03pm

re: #253 SanFranciscoZionist

Pity we didn’t give a shit what Saddam was doing to his people for thirty-odd years.

Word. Should have finished the job the first time. Still pissed about what happened after that.

262 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:56:08pm

re: #257 Slumbering Behemoth

If the end result is that the Iraqi people no longer have to live under such a hideous, murderous regime, then I don’t give a damn who thinks the US is the bad guy in this. Those people can go get fucked.

oooh, will it be fun?

263 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:57:24pm

re: #262 Stanley Sea

The choice is yours. :P

264 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:59:18pm

Stephen Colbert tweets:

On looks alone, John Thune would make a great president as long as he can fend off a challenge from a flat-front Docker’s pant model.
265 elizajane  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 8:59:21pm

Sorry to move from the sublime to the ridiculous, but Bristol Palin’s up on Facebook slamming Olbermann for being mean about her:

[Link: www.facebook.com…]

This family is congenitally incapable of letting criticism roll off their backs. They cannot exist in the public sphere as it is constituted today, for better or worse: they treat the entire political process like a slagging match at highschool. I mean, can you even begin to imagine Michelle Obama writing snarky Facebook posts about all the really vile, racist things people say about her constantly? Can you even imagine her thinking about them?

People on the right got all faux-offended when Obama said he didn’t think about Sarah Palin. Did they think he should be, oh, posting long comments about her on Facebook?

Ugh.

266 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:00:26pm

re: #255 Stanley Sea

I could not disagree more. Wait… I… but…

Nope, could not disagree more.

267 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:00:30pm

What would Ron Paul do?
/Tea Party!@your.mom’s.box-dot.com

268 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:00:36pm

Amputation, Branding and the Death Penalty

Cases

Human Rights Watch/Middle East believes large numbers of people have suffered brandings. Iraqi authorities and state-run media have been just as candid about using branding as a method of punishment as they have been regarding amputation.

C Ali Ubaid Abed Ali from Diyala Governorate had his right hand amputated and his forehead branded for stealing a television and money.[65] An Iraqi television broadcast showed pictures of him under anesthesia in the hospital just after the operations. The images showed his branded forhead and his arm in a bandage.[66] The newscaster commenting on Mr. Ali’s condition said “his case should be ‘a lesson to all who might think of violating the rights of others.’”[67]

C Mussa Inad, an Iraqi soldier, suffered a branding on his forehead for desertion. After escaping to Kuwait, he reported that “Iraqi intelligence officers tortured him by tearing a hole in his ear.”[68]

C A man convicted of stealing from a factory and another convicted separately for auto theft were sentenced to have their hands amputated and their foreheads branded. Amnesty International stated it had unconfirmed reports that this sentence was carried out.[69]

Violations of International Human Rights Law

As with amputation, branding constitutes torture and cruel and inhuman punishment. Branding is the searing of the flesh with a hot metal instrument, an intentional state action causing torture and cruel punishment. A scarred mark on the forehead stigmatizes the victim, adding long-term psychological abuse to physical suffering. Moreover, despite the economic sanctions and a rise in crime, Iraq cannot derogate from its obligations under Article 6 of the ICCPR. Therefore, this punishment of branding violates Iraq’s international obligations to uphold and protect its citizens’ human rights.

More at the link. Yes, this is about Iraq.

269 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:00:41pm

re: #249 Stanley Sea

DF, I love you, you know I do. But sometimes you are cold. I’m a bleeding heart liberal, so we will clash.

When it comes to this sort of thing, you often have to be cold. Wars often kill many thousands, but so do murderous tyrants like Saddam Hussein. The only thing to do is find the least-worst option. If you get too emotional about it you’ll go mad. That doesn’t mean that its not a bad thing that those 15,000 people died. But (and it sound sick, I admit) we ultimately cannot let that bend us out of shape.

270 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:01:45pm

re: #263 Slumbering Behemoth

The choice is yours. :P

What would any self respecting woman choose? ha

271 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:02:04pm

The News We Kept To Ourselves
By Eason Jordan
Published: April 11, 2003

ATLANTA — Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN’s Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard — awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff.

For example, in the mid-1990’s one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the basement of a secret police headquarters because he refused to confirm the government’s ludicrous suspicion that I was the Central Intelligence Agency’s Iraq station chief. CNN had been in Baghdad long enough to know that telling the world about the torture of one of its employees would almost certainly have gotten him killed and put his family and co-workers at grave risk.

Working for a foreign news organization provided Iraqi citizens no protection. The secret police terrorized Iraqis working for international press services who were courageous enough to try to provide accurate reporting. Some vanished, never to be heard from again. Others disappeared and then surfaced later with whispered tales of being hauled off and tortured in unimaginable ways. Obviously, other news organizations were in the same bind we were when it came to reporting on their own workers.

Continues.

272 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:03:31pm

I guarantee you that if we had ever “invaded Darfur” that the extremist anarchists would be screaming at their tops of their lungs about how the USA conducted themselves under such an operation.

273 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:04:45pm

re: #268 Gus 802

Amputation, Branding and the Death Penalty

More at the link. Yes, this is about Iraq.

From 1995, be it noted. With Saddam gone, amputations and branding are also gone now. It’s not all sunshine and lollipops, but the worst horrors no longer occurs and we did play the key role in stopping them.

274 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:05:11pm

Casualties of war…

Part 1

# Iraq, Saddam Hussein (1979-2003): 300 000 [make link]

* Human Rights Watch: “twenty-five years of Ba`th Party rule … murdered or ‘disappeared’ some quarter of a million Iraqis” [[Link: www.hrw.org…]
* 8/9 Dec. 2003 AP: Total murders
o New survey estimates 61,000 residents of Baghdad executed by Saddam.
o US Government estimates a total of 300,000 murders
+ 180,000 Kurds k. in Anfal
+ 60,000 Shiites in 1991
+ 50,000 misc. others executed
o “Human rights officials” est.: 500,000
o Iraqi politicians: over a million
* [These don’t include the million or so dead in the Iran-Iraq War.]

275 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:05:42pm

re: #274 Gus 802

Part 2

Kurdistan (1980s, 1990s): 300 000

* In Iraq:
o 1987 War Annual: 300,000 (1983-87)
o Washington Post, 6 June 93: 70-120,000 (1987-89)
o David McDowall, A Modern History of the Kurds (1996): 150-200,000 (Anfal operations, 1988)
o 23 May 1999 Denver Rocky Mtn News: 280,000 (1961-1999), incl. 180,000 between 1976 and 1988, and 10,000 in 1991.
o HRW: Chemical attack on Halabja, 1988: 4,000 to 7000 civ. killed. 3,200 names collected. [[Link: hrw.org…]
o Ploughshares 2000
+ Total 1961-2000: >100,000
+ Fighting among rival Kurds since 1994: 5,000 k
+ Anfal operations
# US State Dept.: 70-150,000
# Human Rights Watch: 50-100,000
o B&J:
+ 1974-75: 3,000
+ 1976-95: 60,000
+ TOTAL: 63,000
o 857 cartons of detailed files kept by the Iraqi secret police describing genocide against the Kurds emerged in 1991-92.
+ Time 1 June 1992: 200,000 to 300,000 killed (late 80s)
+ AP 7 Dec. 1991: 200,000 k (1986-1991)
+ Chicago Tribune 26 May 1992: 200,000 to 300,000 (1988-91)

276 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:06:27pm

re: #272 Gus 802

I guarantee you that if we had ever “invaded Darfur” that the extremist anarchists would be screaming at their tops of their lungs about how the USA conducted themselves under such an operation.

Yes. But we didn’t. And we won’t.

I can’t tell myself that civilian casualties are any better because Saddam was a murderous bastard, when I know that we knew exactly what was going on in Iraq, we knew for decades, and did nothing. We acted when it was in our interest to act. Our interest. The Iraqi civilian population was not taken into account.

We did not go in on a humanitarian mission. Because of that, I refuse to balance the folks we killed, for whatever reason, under whatever circumstances, against the folks Saddam Hussein would probably have killed.

I will not take that out.

277 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:08:33pm

re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. But we didn’t. And we won’t.

I can’t tell myself that civilian casualties are any better because Saddam was a murderous bastard, when I know that we knew exactly what was going on in Iraq, we knew for decades, and did nothing. We acted when it was in our interest to act. Our interest. The Iraqi civilian population was not taken into account.

We did not go in on a humanitarian mission. Because of that, I refuse to balance the folks we killed, for whatever reason, under whatever circumstances, against the folks Saddam Hussein would probably have killed.

I will not take that out.

You realize that that logic can be applied to all wars?

278 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:09:36pm

re: #265 elizajane

Honestly, I’m going to side with Bristol Palin on this one. Olbermann was being his usual asshole self and going after her. Her reply was well within bounds, so I have no problem with this.

279 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:09:42pm

re: #273 Dark_Falcon

From 1995, be it noted. With Saddam gone, amputations and branding are also gone now. It’s not all sunshine and lollipops, but the worst horrors no longer occurs and we did play the key role in stopping them.

The horrors could have gone on for decades more if we had decided they were in our national interest. Unbelievable shit is going on all over the world, but we don’t move to stop it.

280 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:09:54pm

re: #273 Dark_Falcon

From 1995, be it noted. With Saddam gone, amputations and branding are also gone now. It’s not all sunshine and lollipops, but the worst horrors no longer occurs and we did play the key role in stopping them.

This is satire right?

281 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:10:44pm

OK then. Here are the non-war casualties for Iraq.

# Iraq (1990-): 350 000 [make link]

* International Embargo
o Kaplow, Larry, “Consequences Of Kuwait: Sanctions have Iraq withering”, 13 June 1999, Atlanta Journal and Constitution: 110,000
o Project on Defense Alternatives, 20 Oct. 2003: “[T]he sanction regime probably cost the lives of 170,000 children. (Much higher estimates for 1992-1998 sanction deaths … are based on faulty baseline statistics for prewar childhood mortality in Iraq).” [[Link: www.comw.org…]
o Chris Suellentrop, “Are 1 Million Children Dying in Iraq?” Slate Magazine, October 9, 2001, acknowledged the possibility of 350,000-500,000 excess deaths among children since 1991, but points out that Saddam blames the UN and the US blames Saddam
o UNICEF: 500,000 excess child deaths (under-five) 1991 to 1998 [[Link: www.unicef.org.uk…]
o Philip Shenon, “Washington and Baghdad Agree on One Point: Sanctions Hurt”, 22 Nov. 1998, New York Times: 700,000
o Leon Howell, “Churches Regret Calling for Sanctions”, March 21, 1998, [Albany, NY] Times Union: the UN Food and Agriculture Organization estimated that 1,000,000 Iraqis, incl. 560,000 children, died as a result of malnutrition and disease caused by the international embargo imposed following the invasion of Kuwait. The article mentions the use of these numbers by an official of the United Church of Christ, and also labels the figures “commonly used — but also disputed”.
o 6 Aug. 1999 CNN [[Link: www.cnn.com…]
+ UN: 1M excess deaths
+ Al-Thawra newspaper: 1.5M
o Ramsey Clark: 1,500,000 including 750,000 children [[Link: www.twf.org…]
o Brian Nelson and Jane Arraf, “Ten Years After Iraq’s Invasion of Kuwait and U.N. Sanctions Still Stand”, 18:00 August 6, 2000, CNN Worldview: 1.5 million

Roughly 1 million Iraqis died “by peaceful means”.

282 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:11:22pm

Well my taking over the Christmas shopping for dad is going fairly well, except for my aunt renigging on paying for half of my sisters TV anyway. I’m still also struggling with what to get my nephew, but I offered his mom money to do it for me and she said she would be by tomorrow… (says a lot about my family doesn’t it?)

Going to be a big Christmas around here even if it has been a shitty year for most of us, I’m trying hard anyway.

Menu for Christmas Lunch over here is:
Spiral cut glazed ham
Candied yams
Mashed potatoes
Green bean casserole
Hot German potatoe salad
Salad
Biscuits
Crescent rolls
Pumpkin bread with glaze
Fudge

I’m also getting a tree this year, and decorating the place a bit more, I think everyone could use a bit of cheer. My brother and sister (especially my sister) still wont commit to coming, they say it is too soon after Mom’s memorial to worry about…etc, etc…

I would think that the last Christmas with Dad at home would be equally important to try to create some good memories. He will not be here next year, he wont, can’t we at least try to have a decent Christmas for him?

Sigh…as if I needed to fight more battles…still, I can’t help it.

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:12:39pm

re: #277 Gus 802

You realize that that logic can be applied to all wars?

Yes. I’m not arguing against Iraq, per se. I’m saying that we take responsibility for the people we killed. Pretending that we acted because Saddam did these things is absolute bullcrap. We didn’t go into Iraq to save the Iraqi people from Saddam Hussein.

I should also add that I am not optimistic about the future of Iraq. Love to be proven wrong.

284 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:13:17pm

re: #270 Stanley Sea

What would any self respecting woman choose? ha

Well, it depends on preference, really. Some like it boring.
/

285 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:13:42pm

re: #280 yasharki

This is satire right?

No, I’m serious.

286 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:15:49pm

re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. But we didn’t. And we won’t.

I can’t tell myself that civilian casualties are any better because Saddam was a murderous bastard, when I know that we knew exactly what was going on in Iraq, we knew for decades, and did nothing. We acted when it was in our interest to act. Our interest. The Iraqi civilian population was not taken into account.

We did not go in on a humanitarian mission. Because of that, I refuse to balance the folks we killed, for whatever reason, under whatever circumstances, against the folks Saddam Hussein would probably have killed.

I will not take that out.

Fucking A SFZ, so concur.

287 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:16:10pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. I’m not arguing against Iraq, per se. I’m saying that we take responsibility for the people we killed. Pretending that we acted because Saddam did these things is absolute bullcrap. We didn’t go into Iraq to save the Iraqi people from Saddam Hussein.

I should also add that I am not optimistic about the future of Iraq. Love to be proven wrong.

I can live with that and have said that before. I acknowledge that nearly 100,000 Iraqis died as a result of the invasion. However, I also understand that over 2,000,000 Iraqis had died as result of the sanctions and Saddam Hussiens Iran-Iraq war and murderous leadership. Had we continued the sanctions against Iraq, another 1,000,000 Iraqis would have probably died in the past 10 years.

288 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:18:34pm

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

Honestly, I’m going to side with Bristol Palin on this one. Olbermann was being his usual asshole self and going after her. Her reply was well within bounds, so I have no problem with this.

She #1, did not write the reply. The reply included the word ‘canard’

Sorry, the Palin’s are the most thin skinned victims who hire ghost-writers to respond for them. Wimps.

289 nhand42  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:19:13pm

re: #256 reine.de.tout

Yes, but the “those guys are worse” argument is weak sauce.
/ / / /

Yes, 15,000 more dead than previously reported is awful, and very very sad, and we all it were not so.

400,000 in mass graves by the Saddam regime - just that much worse, and how many MORE than 15,000 would be dead now?

We were talking about the Balkans and Russians, and you derailed the thread by holding up Saddam’s murderous regime, pretending that US government corruption is not as bad as 400,000 dead under Saddam.

It’s weak sauce. It’s deflection. You can’t say “but he’s worse” to deflect criticism of your own government. It’s the same pathetic arguments that liberals use, and you rightfully call them out for, and here you are using it yourself.

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:20:45pm

re: #287 Gus 802

I can live with that and have said that before. I acknowledge that nearly 100,000 Iraqis died as a result of the invasion. However, I also understand that over 2,000,000 Iraqis had died as result of the sanctions and Saddam Hussiens Iran-Iraq war and murderous leadership. Had we continued the sanctions against Iraq, another 1,000,000 Iraqis would have probably died in the past 10 years.

Entirely possible.

I’m just very, very wary of ‘we saved Iraq from Saddam’ lines of reasoning.

291 nhand42  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:21:07pm

re: #289 nhand42

We were talking about the Balkans and Russians, and you derailed the thread by holding up Saddam’s murderous regime, pretending that US government corruption is not as bad as 400,000 dead under Saddam.

That should read “with the pretense that US government corruption is not as bad as 400,000 dead under Saddam”.

292 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:21:35pm

re: #289 nhand42

We were talking about the Balkans and Russians, and you derailed the thread by holding up Saddam’s murderous regime, pretending that US government corruption is not as bad as 400,000 dead under Saddam.

It’s weak sauce. It’s deflection. You can’t say “but he’s worse” to deflect criticism of your own government. It’s the same pathetic arguments that liberals use, and you rightfully call them out for, and here you are using it yourself.

I didn’t bring up Saddam’s murderous regime.

I haven’t called out any liberals for anything.
I did post some specific questions about the statements you posted.

But don’t let reality get in your way of a good rant.

293 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:22:18pm

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

Entirely possible.

I’m just very, very wary of ‘we saved Iraq from Saddam’ lines of reasoning.

OK, then perhaps look at it as having “saved” Iraq from Saddam by default or by “accident”. In theory, Iraq now has a clean slate to build a better future for their people.

294 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:22:28pm

re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist

Civilian casualties are never good, it’s nothing that anyone wants.

And as I said before, we should have finished the job the first time instead of pulling out and leaving the Iraqi people hanging out to dry like that. That was fucked up.

295 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:22:29pm

re: #288 Stanley Sea

She #1, did not write the reply. The reply included the word ‘canard’

Sorry, the Palin’s are the most thin skinned victims who hire ghost-writers to respond for them. Wimps.

How do you know? I’d need more proof than a big word to make that accusation.

296 elizajane  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:22:54pm

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

Honestly, I’m going to side with Bristol Palin on this one. Olbermann was being his usual asshole self and going after her. Her reply was well within bounds, so I have no problem with this.

Right and wrong isn’t the issue. It’s that if you want to be a major political figure, or the family of one, you can’t put yourself on the level of asshat news commentator.

297 nhand42  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:24:13pm

re: #292 reine.de.tout

I didn’t bring up Saddam’s murderous regime.

You are a liar.

298 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:24:48pm

re: #294 Slumbering Behemoth

Civilian casualties are never good, it’s nothing that anyone wants.

And as I said before, we should have finished the job the first time instead of pulling out and leaving the Iraqi people hanging out to dry like that. That was fucked up.

yep.

299 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:25:02pm

re: #297 nhand42

You are a liar.

okey-dokey, if you say so.

300 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:25:29pm

re: #291 nhand42

That should read “with the pretense that US government corruption is not as bad as 400,000 dead under Saddam”.

That’s not a pretense. That’s the reality. Whatever corruption there was in the lead up and prosecution of the Iraq invasion is not as bad as the over 2 million dead under Saddam Hussein.

Should I remind you of the threat he also posed to Israel including the scud missile attacks from Iraq?

301 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:26:21pm

re: #297 nhand42

If you prefer to talk about US Government corruption, you can do it without attacking people here.

302 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:26:45pm

re: #297 nhand42

You are a liar.

Usually around here, if you want to correct someone’s statement, it’s considered nice to cite their earlier post, rather than jump to such a statement.

She said, in a dry, and somewhat forboding voice.

303 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:27:40pm

re: #295 Dark_Falcon

How do you know? I’d need more proof than a big word to make that accusation.

Did you read the Bristol/Willow Face book rant against their friend who dared to criticizes the Mom’s show?

All wtf, bc, faggot, c you, you loser, etc.

No words iike CANARD! lol. (there were more big words, but that one, hello, made me laugh. I don’t use canard!!!!)

Why don’t we call them out for their bullshit? Their being a victim has won over common sense.

304 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:27:49pm

re: #297 nhand42

Don’t be an ass. Going after Reine will just get you hated.

305 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:28:04pm

I first mentioned Iraq in comment 256 here.

It was in response to this comment # 250

Which itself was in response to comment 244, Iraq’s Legacy of Terror, NOT a comment made by me.

Someone needs reading comprehension lessons.

306 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:28:14pm

re: #297 nhand42

You are a liar.

I brought up Hussein’s “murderous regime”. So technically that makes you the liar.

307 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:29:09pm

re: #306 Gus 802

I brought up Hussein’s “murderous regime”. So technically that makes you the liar.

Merci.
I wasn’t gonna say it, but I’ll upding you for pointing it out!

308 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:29:58pm

re: #303 Stanley Sea

Did you read the Bristol/Willow Face book rant against their friend who dared to criticizes the Mom’s show?

All wtf, bc, faggot, c you, you loser, etc.

No words iike CANARD! lol. (there were more big words, but that one, hello, made me laugh. I don’t use canard!!!)

Why don’t we call them out for their bullshit? Their being a victim has won over common sense.

That was all Willow, as I understand it. Also, I don’t see Bristol’s post as bullshit. Olbermann went after her more little reason and was being as ass, and she called him on it. That doesn’t bother me at all.

309 reine.de.tout  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:32:11pm

g’nite all.

I’m taking my lying ass to get some much needed sleep.

Maybe I’ll behave tomorrow.

310 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:33:02pm

I have a new AGW post about how science fails to communicate, even when it is utterly correct and “wins” the debate.

Alley and Rohrabacher: Brain vs Bluster

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

If you watch this video you will see, Dana Rohrbacher, a Republican (of course) who is angling to be chairman of the Science and Technology committee, attempting to bluster against Dr. Richard Alley, an expert on paleo-climate from Penn State.

While Rohrbacher skips from debunked taking point to debunked talking point, Alley explains clearly and concisely the obvious reasons why the various talking points brought by the politician are garbage. There is only one problem. The listener must have a basic grasp of science and scientific reasoning to understand just how badly Rohrbacher was taken apart by Alley.

311 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:33:53pm

re: #308 Dark_Falcon

No DF, go re-find the FB rant. Bristol was the first commenter. She was nasty.

Such damn misinformation.

312 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:34:13pm

re: #293 Gus 802

OK, then perhaps look at it as having “saved” Iraq from Saddam by default or by “accident”. In theory, Iraq now has a clean slate to build a better future for their people.

That’s we’re I’m coming from. I am not operating under any assumptions that we went in a saviors of the people. I don’t recall reading anything like that in H.J.RES.114.

313 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:36:01pm

re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. But we didn’t. And we won’t.

I can’t tell myself that civilian casualties are any better because Saddam was a murderous bastard, when I know that we knew exactly what was going on in Iraq, we knew for decades, and did nothing. We acted when it was in our interest to act. Our interest. The Iraqi civilian population was not taken into account.

We did not go in on a humanitarian mission. Because of that, I refuse to balance the folks we killed, for whatever reason, under whatever circumstances, against the folks Saddam Hussein would probably have killed.

I will not take that out.

Excellent point.

314 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:37:10pm

re: #289 nhand42

We were talking about the Balkans and Russians, and you derailed the thread by holding up Saddam’s murderous regime, pretending that US government corruption is not as bad as 400,000 dead under Saddam.

So you’re saying Balkan, Russian, or Iraqi government casualties are a joke compared to evil corruption unleashed by US government on Saddam’s murderous regime? Do you even know how to spell history?

315 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:40:13pm

re: #312 Slumbering Behemoth

That’s we’re I’m coming from. I am not operating under any assumptions that we went in a saviors of the people. I don’t recall reading anything like that in H.J.RES.114.

Same here. I was rather skeptical for the first year including hearing Powell’s UN testimony. However, over time I realized that we had to finish the job in Iraq otherwise it would lead to a catastrophe for Iraq and the region if we had pulled out of Iraq.

316 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:41:15pm

re: #315 Gus 802

Same here. I was rather skeptical for the first year including hearing Powell’s UN testimony. However, over time I realized that we had to finish the job in Iraq otherwise it would lead to a catastrophe for Iraq and the region if we had pulled out of Iraq.

I believe it was Colin Powell who proposed the Pottery Barn doctrine.

317 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:41:29pm

re: #314 yasharki

Nhand42 didn’t have much to contribute but disturbance.

318 elizajane  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:41:34pm

re: #281 Gus 802

OK then. Here are the non-war casualties for Iraq.

Roughly 1 million Iraqis died “by peaceful means”.

The whole “non-war” casualties thing bothers me. I’d need to spend more time thinking about exactly why this is, but I am uncomfortable about who calculates it and how and why.

I recently read Christa Wolf’s masterful autobiographical novel “Patterns of Childhood.” The last part of the book details her family’s flight from Poland into Germany at the end of world war II. In the course of the journey, all the old people die. They just do. That’s how it is. The same is true in the amazing Rossellini film, Germany Year Zero, from 1948. I mean, in the past these things have just been absorbed into the disruption of culture and life. If you’re going to count them as part of war casualties (as apart from direct civilian casualties), where does it end? What other forms of intervention into a society will count as “war” because they cause more deaths than in a “normal” year?

Don’t get me wrong. I’d be one of the ones who’d die along the road as a refugee, just from being weak and unfit. But beyond the individual story, is this a valid way to keep statistics? When and why did it begin, and what purpose does it serve? I think I’m uncomfortable with it because to me it suddenly emerged on The Guardian chat rooms as a way of bashing America. Who started it?

319 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:43:31pm

re: #310 LudwigVanQuixote

Have you seen this parody article about science reporting?

This is a news website article about a scientific paper

In the standfirst I will make a fairly obvious pun about the subject matter before posing an inane question I have no intention of really answering: is this an important scientific finding?

The article itself is pretty funny, but many of the comments there are quite clever.

320 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:45:17pm

re: #310 LudwigVanQuixote

I have a new AGW post about how science fails to communicate, even when it is utterly correct and “wins” the debate.

Alley and Rohrabacher: Brain vs Bluster

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

If you watch this video you will see, Dana Rohrbacher, a Republican (of course) who is angling to be chairman of the Science and Technology committee, attempting to bluster against Dr. Richard Alley, an expert on paleo-climate from Penn State.

While Rohrbacher skips from debunked taking point to debunked talking point, Alley explains clearly and concisely the obvious reasons why the various talking points brought by the politician are garbage. There is only one problem. The listener must have a basic grasp of science and scientific reasoning to understand just how badly Rohrbacher was taken apart by Alley.

Volume and aggression can sometimes win debates. Sometimes people will simply be intimidated and fold a winning hand. It works especially well if one party is much larger and stronger than the other, since the smaller person will often just defer rather than risk getting smacked around. It’s not a good thing, but it is something that happens all the time.

321 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:46:38pm

re: #317 jaunte

Nhand42 didn’t have much to contribute but disturbance.

Thank you for supporting my pov, I was beginning to think I was seeing things :)

322 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:48:56pm

re: #321 yasharki

After the third protest against people talking about subjects other than (preferred subject of poster) without any specifics stated about that subject, you start to wonder.

323 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:49:44pm

re: #311 Stanley Sea

No DF, go re-find the FB rant. Bristol was the first commenter. She was nasty.

Such damn misinformation.

“I learned it by watching you!”

I mean, look at the other day …Willow, finally, my 16 year old … she had had it up to here with somebody saying very very hateful things about the family and saying mean things about her little brother Trig and Willow finally responded and she used a bad word when she responded in defense of her family.

An absolutely lie, nobody ever mentioned Trig. There is no possible way that Sarah can claim to be confused about this. The Palins are just such blatant goddamned liars.

324 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:49:48pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

Volume and aggression can sometimes win debates. Sometimes people will simply be intimidated and fold a winning hand. It works especially well if one party is much larger and stronger than the other, since the smaller person will often just defer rather than risk getting smacked around. It’s not a good thing, but it is something that happens all the time.

That is actually not the problem at all. Alley isn’t intimidated by the GOP moron at all. Alley however, like most scientists falsely assumes that people who ask scientific questions want actual answers and will think through them without being spoonfed like they are children. Alley actually, in his mind, is trying to not be insulting by inferring that the congressman is a moron, by over explaining things which Alley would consider obvious.

Do you follow?

In the world of science you don’t explain basics over and over, because to do so is to imply that your interlocutor is too dumb to follow.

Int eh world of politics, they bank on the listener being too dumb to think things through.

325 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:50:25pm

re: #322 jaunte

Why are you wondering? Obvious sock is obvious.

326 jaunte  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:50:45pm

Attention porn surfers: a public service message from Pharyngula
Another reason to avoid visiting Answers in Genesis

327 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:54:10pm

re: #323 goddamnedfrank

“I learned it by watching you!”

An absolutely lie, nobody ever mentioned Trig. There is no possible way that Sarah can claim to be confused about this. The Palins are just such blatant goddamned liars.

GODDAMNED LIARS, hiding under the cover of victim hood.

Open your eyes smart people.

328 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 9:57:00pm

re: #318 elizajane

The whole “non-war” casualties thing bothers me. I’d need to spend more time thinking about exactly why this is, but I am uncomfortable about who calculates it and how and why.

I recently read Christa Wolf’s masterful autobiographical novel “Patterns of Childhood.” The last part of the book details her family’s flight from Poland into Germany at the end of world war II. In the course of the journey, all the old people die. They just do. That’s how it is. The same is true in the amazing Rossellini film, Germany Year Zero, from 1948. I mean, in the past these things have just been absorbed into the disruption of culture and life. If you’re going to count them as part of war casualties (as apart from direct civilian casualties), where does it end? What other forms of intervention into a society will count as “war” because they cause more deaths than in a “normal” year?

Don’t get me wrong. I’d be one of the ones who’d die along the road as a refugee, just from being weak and unfit. But beyond the individual story, is this a valid way to keep statistics? When and why did it begin, and what purpose does it serve? I think I’m uncomfortable with it because to me it suddenly emerged on The Guardian chat rooms as a way of bashing America. Who started it?

I was thinking along the lines of whether we invade a country or do we sanction them so harshly to cause mass deaths over a period of time. As for the accuracy of those figures I typically add the low number with the high number and divide it by two in order to get an average. I am also aware that the sanctions was a point of criticism against the USA at the time.

It originated in the UN as United Nations Security Council Resolution 661 with 13 voting for the resolution, 2 abstaining nations, and none in opposition.

329 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:00:14pm

re: #326 jaunte

Attention porn surfers: a public service message from Pharyngula
Another reason to avoid visiting Answers in Genesis

Nice

330 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:01:33pm

re: #318 elizajane

normal scientific practice would be to obtain some background, non-war statistics and to measure the effects of a war against those

331 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:02:22pm

re: #324 LudwigVanQuixote

That is actually not the problem at all. Alley isn’t intimidated by the GOP moron at all. Alley however, like most scientists falsely assumes that people who ask scientific questions want actual answers and will think through them without being spoonfed like they are children. Alley actually, in his mind, is trying to not be insulting by inferring that the congressman is a moron, by over explaining things which Alley would consider obvious.

Do you follow?

In the world of science you don’t explain basics over and over, because to do so is to imply that your interlocutor is too dumb to follow.

Int eh world of politics, they bank on the listener being too dumb to think things through.

Yes, I follow. And you have it exact. Politicians don’t aim to provide the audience with something to think about, their aim is implant their talking points and get out their sound bites. It’s far more about spin than facts.

332 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:03:35pm

re: #325 LudwigVanQuixote

Why are you wondering? Obvious sock is obvious.

LVQ, may I comment on SoIaF? I got halfway into the second book, and have some comments to share :)

333 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:06:41pm

re: #332 yasharki

LVQ, may I comment on SoIaF? I got halfway into the second book, and have some comments to share :)

Why are you asking my permission? I bloody well love the series!

334 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:06:52pm

re: #326 jaunte

Attention porn surfers…

Good looking out, bro.
:)

335 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:07:12pm

re: #328 Gus 802

I was thinking along the lines of whether we invade a country or do we sanction them so harshly to cause mass deaths over a period of time. As for the accuracy of those figures I typically add the low number with the high number and divide it by two in order to get an average. I am also aware that the sanctions was a point of criticism against the USA at the time.

It originated in the UN as United Nations Security Council Resolution 661 with 13 voting for the resolution, 2 abstaining nations, and none in opposition.

I should point out though that far fewer children would have died had Saddam actually used the oil monet he was allowed on food instead of using it to buy AT-14 ATGMs and upgrade kits for T-72s. He wanted children to suffer, so that he could apply anti-sanctions pressure. And had the sanctions been mostly lifted, Saddam would have gone back into the chemical weapons business, don’t think he wouldn’t have.

336 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:08:11pm

re: #329 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nice

This is absurd.

337 Kronocide  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:11:19pm

re: #310 LudwigVanQuixote

I have a new AGW post about how science fails to communicate, even when it is utterly correct and “wins” the debate.

Alley and Rohrabacher: Brain vs Bluster

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

If you watch this video you will see, Dana Rohrbacher, a Republican (of course) who is angling to be chairman of the Science and Technology committee, attempting to bluster against Dr. Richard Alley, an expert on paleo-climate from Penn State.

While Rohrbacher skips from debunked taking point to debunked talking point, Alley explains clearly and concisely the obvious reasons why the various talking points brought by the politician are garbage. There is only one problem. The listener must have a basic grasp of science and scientific reasoning to understand just how badly Rohrbacher was taken apart by Alley.

Science needs a Makeover and marketing department. I know why they shy away from advocacy and think for the most part that is the correct tact, but in this case it’s time for advocacy and campaign. The detractors have already accused science of advocacy and campaigning.

I watched John Abraham’s thorough review of a Monckton seminar and thought that was perfect: based on facts, science, reasoning, but light on rhetoric and advocacy. Plus, he was polite and fair. We need a lot more of that.

Science also needs a champion. Al Gore it has been be I don’t think he’s the best choice (for a couple reasons). It’s big subject but it seems it’s now being broached but the scientists themselves.

338 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:12:33pm

re: #335 Dark_Falcon

I should point out though that far fewer children would have died had Saddam actually used the oil monet he was allowed on food instead of using it to buy AT-14 ATGMs and upgrade kits for T-72s. He wanted children to suffer, so that he could apply anti-sanctions pressure. And had the sanctions been mostly lifted, Saddam would have gone back into the chemical weapons business, don’t think he wouldn’t have.

Ah yes. The oil for food scandal and that pig George Galloway.

339 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:16:05pm

re: #333 LudwigVanQuixote

Why are you asking my permission? I bloody well love the series!

I was hoping I can find someone to criticize it with! It’s a very, very well written saga, so much so that I’m having a hard time finding someone to talk about it without having to swipe drool off my face…

340 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:18:32pm

re: #333 LudwigVanQuixote

Why are you asking my permission? I bloody well love the series!

What series?

341 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:19:13pm

re: #340 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What series?

Song of Ice and Fire

342 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:19:52pm

re: #336 yasharki

This is absurd.

You see, when I said nice, I was actually implying something quite the opposite. Its this little thing I do. Do try and keep up. K thnx bye.

343 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:20:12pm

re: #339 yasharki

I was hoping I can find someone to criticize it with! It’s a very, very well written saga, so much so that I’m having a hard time finding someone to talk about it without having to swipe drool off my face…

I think it is the best written fantasy series in existence. It is as if Tolkien had grown up.

It is very clear that Martin’s original concept was to base a series on the Wars of the Roses. The name Lannister is a sort of dead giveaway.

It is also abundantly clear that something magical happened in the course of his writing. He managed to breathe such life into his characters, endow them with so much depth and personality, that they seem to have taken on a life of their own beyond the original scope of the author.

If you couple that with a number of intricate plots that all interweave seamlessly and some wonderful twists, that are of the brilliant rather than the stupid variety, it is all in all the best series of its kind.

344 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:21:31pm

re: #337 BigPapa

Gore is a terrible champion. Thatcher was a champion believe it or don’t but, she is out of the picture now.

345 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:22:51pm

re: #338 Gus 802

Galloway is slime. A disgusting POS. May he be infested with the fleas of a thousand camels.

346 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:23:01pm

re: #344 LudwigVanQuixote

Gore is a terrible champion. Thatcher was a champion believe it or don’t but, she is out of the picture now.

Gore had to much excess baggage and was too polarizing a figure to be effective.

347 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:23:47pm

re: #338 Gus 802

Ah yes. The oil for food scandal and that pig George Galloway.

Calling George Galloway a pig is an insult to all the swine of the world.

349 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:25:59pm

re: #345 Slumbering Behemoth

Galloway is slime. A disgusting POS. May he be infested with the fleas of a thousand camels.

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for George Galloway to speak the truth.

350 Kronocide  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:26:55pm

re: #344 LudwigVanQuixote

Gore is a terrible champion. Thatcher was a champion believe it or don’t but, she is out of the picture now.

Oh shit, if the Beloved Iron Lady came out I wonder what the pundits would say. But she is getting along and physically frail.

I loved listening to Monckton frothing on Alex Jones about that evil lying bastard scientist ‘looks like a cooked prawn’ John Abraham. I sent him and email saying good job and good luck, ‘you probably get a lot of hate mail.’

He replied back with thanks and said most of it was supportive. Made my day.

351 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:27:04pm

re: #341 yasharki

Song of Ice and Fire

I don’t know squat about that series or the author, but I just looked it up, and it appears that HBO is doing a series based on the first book “A Game of Thrones”.

352 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:27:55pm

re: #346 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Gore had to much excess baggage and was too polarizing a figure to be effective.

And that’s actually part of the problem: To move a big bill through Congress requires developing political power. But developing political power and a broad coalition always requires one to weasel at least sometimes and it also leaves dirt on a person. Those things then make it very hard to proclaim the truth about something, because the speaker will have repeatedly ignored the truth in order to build up their power.

354 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:28:54pm

re: #351 Slumbering Behemoth

I don’t know squat about that series or the author, but I just looked it up, and it appears that HBO is doing a series based on the first book “A Game of Thrones”.

Yup

Tyrion

355 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:29:30pm

re: #348 Gus 802

I tried to watch that debate some time ago, and just couldn’t manage through Galloway’s segments. I had to tap out, I just could handle that much garbage.

356 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:31:17pm

re: #355 Slumbering Behemoth

I tried to watch that debate some time ago, and just couldn’t manage through Galloway’s segments. I had to tap out, I just could handle that much garbage.

Same here. George Galloway has to be one of the most disgusting mutated forms of the human species on Earth.

357 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:34:22pm

re: #350 BigPapa

Oh shit, if the Beloved Iron Lady came out I wonder what the pundits would say. But she is getting along and physically frail.

I loved listening to Monckton frothing on Alex Jones about that evil lying bastard scientist ‘looks like a cooked prawn’ John Abraham. I sent him and email saying good job and good luck, ‘you probably get a lot of hate mail.’

He replied back with thanks and said most of it was supportive. Made my day.

She did come out. She came out in terms that made Gore seem weak and timorous to the UN in 1989!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

The right wing memory holes this.

What we are now doing to the world, by degrading the land surfaces, by polluting the waters and by adding greenhouse gases to the air at an unprecedented rate - all this is new in the experience of the earth. It is mankind and his activities that are changing the environment of our planet in damaging and dangerous ways.

The result is that change in future is likely to be more fundamental and more widespread than anything we have known hitherto. Change to the sea around us, change to the atmosphere above, leading in turn to change in the world’s climate, which could alter the way we live in the most fundamental way of all. That prospect is a new factor in human affairs. It is comparable in its implications to the discovery of how to split the atom. Indeed, its results could be even more far-reaching.

The evidence is there. The damage is being done. What do we, the international community, do about it?

In some areas, the action required is primarily for individual nations or groups of nations to take. But the problem of global climate change is one that affects us all and action will only be effective if it is taken at the international level. It is no good squabbling over who is responsible or who should pay. We have to look forward not backward, and we shall only succeed in dealing with the problems through a vast international, co-operative effort.

The environmental challenge that confronts the whole world demands an equivalent response from the whole world. Every country will be affected and no one can opt out. Those countries who are industrialised must contribute more to help those who are not.

358 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:35:02pm

re: #354 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So, is it any good? The book series?

359 lostlakehiker  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:35:11pm

re: #279 SanFranciscoZionist

The horrors could have gone on for decades more if we had decided they were in our national interest. Unbelievable shit is going on all over the world, but we don’t move to stop it.

Because we’re stretched thin and the worst shit is backed by a nuclear arsenal. The NK regime keeps its people on the edge of famine and in a bad year pushes them over the edge. It’s Orwell’s 1984 without the nice guy stuff.

In Africa, we tried once a decade or so ago to send our own troops in to intervene in some coup situation. Within a couple of days, half the force was medical casualties. Malaria etc.

The last time we operated in Burma, during WW2, the medical situation was not much different. We cannot overthrow the Burmese government and set up a nice one.

Right close to home, Mexico is melting down. Gang wars, kidnappings, the works. We could invade. Mexico is convenient, our army wouldn’t sicken and die just from being in theater, and our guns are bigger. But then what? The government there is not the problem, and overthrowing it would only make the problem worse. There isn’t any military answer, and there isn’t any humanitarian answer either because no humanitarian intervention can get off the ground while the security situation is impossibly grim.

The Mexicans are going to have to sort this out more or less on their own. We wish them the best of luck. They need it.

Venezuela is going down the tubes too. Hugo Chavez cannot help but misrule. But again, we are in no position to oust him. Heaping maledictions on him is cathartic but has no real effect.

It’s not so easy to Do the Right Thing.

360 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:39:00pm

re: #353 Gus 802

Gawt-damint! WTF is wrong with that fucker?

“The man’s search for a tyrannical father land never ends”

- Christopher Hitchens, about Galloway

361 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:41:41pm

re: #360 Slumbering Behemoth

Gawt-damint! WTF is wrong with that fucker?

“The man’s search for a tyrannical father land never ends”

- Christopher Hitchens, about Galloway

George Galloway is your typical pseudo-leftist fraud living in a free country while defending murderous regimes as a fashion statement. He was most recently seen spreading propaganda for North Korea claiming, of course, they they’re an innocent victim.

362 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:44:19pm

re: #361 Gus 802

I can listen to people I disagree with, even strongly so, and be none the worse for wear. But I swear, that pus bag… I can’t listen to his shit for very long without getting incensed to the point of wanting to throw a punch.

363 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:44:48pm

re: #360 Slumbering Behemoth

Gawt-damint! WTF is wrong with that fucker?

“The man’s search for a tyrannical father land never ends”

- Christopher Hitchens, about Galloway

I think that he really does hate freedom. He prefers the ability of tyrants to impose something that looks like perfection. He was not successful in Parliament because he could never accept the give-and-take that is a crucial part of legislative democracy, preferring instead to dream about having the power to simply demand things be a certain way.

364 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:44:50pm

This is who you defend when you defend Assange and Wikileaks:

WikiLeaks Backup Plan Could Drop Diplomatic Bomb

Supporters Downloading Heavily Encrypted File Told They Will Receive Key if Trouble Befalls Website, Founder

(CBS) WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has a backup plan should anything happen to him or his notorious document-dumping website.

The legal net is tightening around Assange. On Thursday, Sweden’s highest court turned down an appeal from his legal team, which means an international warrant for his arrest in a sexual assault case is valid, CBS News Correspondent Elizabeth Palmer reports.

(Scroll down to watch a video of this report)

Supporters of WikiLeaks around the world are downloading a file the site calls an insurance policy. The files are encrypted with a code so strong it’s unbreakable, even by governments.

If anything happens to Assange or the website, a key will go out to unlock the files. There would then be no way to stop the information from spreading like wildfire because so many people already have copies.

“What most folks are speculating is that the insurance file contains unreleased information that would be especially embarrassing to the U.S. government if it were released,” said Declan McCullagh, chief political correspondent for CNET, a CBS company.

In other words, the Interpol arrest warrant may eventually stop Assange but not the spread of even more Wiki-secrets.

Continues.

They have now elevated this to blackmail.

365 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:46:14pm

re: #362 Slumbering Behemoth

I can listen to people I disagree with, even strongly so, and be none the worse for wear. But I swear, that pus bag… I can’t listen to his shit for very long without getting incensed to the point of wanting to throw a punch.

It’s his delivery, style and even his accentuated inflections which has a negative psychological effect. He is the ultimate example of a pompous windbag that sounds good to the ear but says nothing to the mind.

366 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:46:49pm

re: #364 Gus 802

This is who you defend when you defend Assange and Wikileaks:

WikiLeaks Backup Plan Could Drop Diplomatic Bomb

Supporters Downloading Heavily Encrypted File Told They Will Receive Key if Trouble Befalls Website, Founder

They have now elevated this to blackmail.

He wishes that encryption was unbreakable. I think the NSA may be able to surprise him.

367 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:47:18pm

re: #364 Gus 802

Dinged and Recommended.

368 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:47:39pm

Interesting note about the stalkers…

ChenZen is having a notice me party much like lil’ Kim Il Jong of North Korea.

He is threatening to out LGF people unless we succumb to his demands.

Well, Bret, employee number #1651, you maybe should not have posted this about yourself on your own blog… should you?

369 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:48:16pm

And just a reminder to those of you on the left that support Assange. Everything he does will have a negative impact on the Obama administration and it will go beyond SoS Hillary Clinton.

370 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:48:44pm

re: #369 Gus 802

And just a reminder to those of you on the left that support Assange. Everything he does will have a negative impact on the Obama administration and it will go beyond SoS Hillary Clinton.

No two ways.

371 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:49:07pm

re: #368 LudwigVanQuixote

Oh noes, what are his demands? Who is he threatening to out?

372 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:49:58pm

re: #343 LudwigVanQuixote

I haven’t read the whole thing yet. It’s a very, very well written saga, as far as I can see (halfway into book 2), right up there with best fantasy epics, but comparing it with LOTR is a long stretch imho.

373 Gus  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:51:11pm

re: #368 LudwigVanQuixote

Interesting note about the stalkers…

ChenZen is having a notice me party much like lil’ Kim Il Jong of North Korea.

He is threatening to out LGF people unless we succumb to his demands.

Well, Bret, employee number #1651, you maybe should not have posted this about yourself on your own blog… should you?

ChenZhen is going Wikileaks on us? Oh noz!

374 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:51:36pm

re: #372 yasharki

I haven’t read the whole thing yet. It’s a very, very well written saga, as far as I can see (halfway into book 2), right up there with best fantasy epics, but comparing it with LOTR is a long stretch imho.

Tell me that after you have read the third book.

In LOTR, Fellowship is the weakest book.

375 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:52:04pm

re: #364 Gus 802

This is who you defend when you defend Assange and Wikileaks:

WikiLeaks Backup Plan Could Drop Diplomatic Bomb

Supporters Downloading Heavily Encrypted File Told They Will Receive Key if Trouble Befalls Website, Founder

They have now elevated this to blackmail.

And this is also the man who claims to favor openness and is now acting like a mob boss threatening to expose the dirt he knows if he get in trouble. In that he is worse than Rod Blagojevich, who at least does not pretend to be a saint. Assange could give the Chicago Machine lessons in brazenness and skulduggery. Not that Chicago would take him; even the crooks here don’t like rapists.

376 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:53:18pm

re: #374 LudwigVanQuixote

Tell me that after you have read the third book.

In LOTR, Fellowship is the weakest book.

I can agree with that.

377 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:56:06pm

re: #371 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh noes, what are his demands? Who is he threatening to out?

He’s threatening Kilgore. He demands an apology for having stuff he posted himself about himself pointed out here (not by me).

378 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:57:48pm

re: #371 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh noes, what are his demands? Who is he threatening to out?

He threatens to out Killgore Trout unless Charles deletes the posts where he uses Chen Zhen’s real name and apologizes. He set a deadline of 24 hours for Charles to reply. I just found out about this, and I’m going to send Reggie an email about it right now.

379 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:58:12pm

re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote

He’s threatening Kilgore. He demands an apology for having stuff he posted himself about himself pointed out here (not by me).

I think Tobias Funke sums it up nicely

Youtube Video
380 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 10:58:44pm

re: #375 Dark_Falcon

If he really gave a shit about openness, transparency, and honesty, he would have shown up in Sweden when it became known that charges were filed against him.

He’s just another dirt bag hypocrite.

381 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:00:17pm

re: #379 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think Tobias Funke sums it up nicely


[Video]

I think there are something like 50 lizards ready to write to Bret’s employers at the Electronics shop if he does something illegal. This stuff becomes real very shortly for him if he wants to play his games.

How about this Chen.

Memory hole your own BS and pretend it didn’t happen or I will personally have your job.

382 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:03:00pm

re: #381 LudwigVanQuixote

I think there are something like 50 lizards ready to write to Bret’s employers at the Electronics shop if he does something illegal. This stuff becomes real very shortly for him if he wants to play his games.

How about this Chen.

Memory hole your own BS and pretend it didn’t happen or I will personally have your job.

But he is the mighty CHENZEN! What can mere mortals do to the likes of he except tremble?

No, no, this just looks like snickering, really, its trembling. Honest.

383 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:05:05pm

re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote

So let me get this straight. He posted some of his personal info on the web, and is now throwing a tantrum because someone here pointed that out?

384 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:07:30pm

re: #383 Slumbering Behemoth

So let me get this straight. He posted some of his personal info on the web, and is now throwing a tantrum because someone here pointed that out?

The diabolical machinatations against him never cease, eh?

385 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:08:17pm

re: #382 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But he is the mighty CHENZEN! What can mere mortals do to the likes of he except tremble?

No, no, this just looks like snickering, really, its trembling. Honest.

He is threatening the real life identity of someone on a hate site full of known racists, Civil War revisionists and violent screed writers who threaten others with physical violence. It is pure web stalking, any employer could see that plainly. Particularly if any of Savage’s rape fantasies or Rodan’s “gangster” genocide fantasies are sent along.

If he posts KTs name, I will get a lot of people together to write his employers.

And Bret, this is my own initiative.

386 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:09:24pm

re: #383 Slumbering Behemoth

So let me get this straight. He posted some of his personal info on the web, and is now throwing a tantrum because someone here pointed that out?

Yes. And giving a 24 hour ultimatum. And blaming Charles for forcing him to do so. And not even going after the person who pointed it out.

387 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:10:23pm

re: #374 LudwigVanQuixote

Tell me that after you have read the third book.

In LOTR, Fellowship is the weakest book.

I’m still working on the second book, plz gimme some time to get to the end of the third one :). Not sure how one can claim JRRT’s Fellowship being weakest in three links, since it was yours, mine, and apparently many other people’s reason to keep on reading the rest, and making these stories most successful Hollywood screenings of all time.

388 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:10:49pm

re: #383 Slumbering Behemoth

So let me get this straight. He posted some of his personal info on the web, and is now throwing a tantrum because someone here pointed that out?

He thinks that he somehow humiliated Charles with his little stunt and he sees Charles as striking back at him vindictively. There was also an appearance of the classic Stalker Meme that Charles got CZ name from PayPal rather than the net. That has been disproved repeatedly, but multiple Stalkers still brought it up.

389 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:11:39pm

re: #387 yasharki

I’m still working on the second book, plz gimme some time to get to the end of the third one :). Not sure how one can claim JRRT’s Fellowship being weakest in three links, since it was yours, mine, and apparently many other people’s reason to keep on reading the rest, and making these stories most successful Hollywood screenings of all time.

I didn’t say Fellowship was a bad book! Far from it! I said that it is the weakest of the three. Much like LOTR, SoIaF needs to come to a boil.

390 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:13:12pm

re: #388 Dark_Falcon

He thinks that he somehow humiliated Charles with his little stunt and he sees Charles as striking back at him vindictively. There was also an appearance of the classic Stalker Meme that Charles got CZ name from PayPal rather than the net. That has been disproved repeatedly, but multiple Stalkers still brought it up.

Yeah. The idiot was bragging about his little Mercury Cougar (real Ferrari that!) and attached his info on it. He did that on his own.

391 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:14:25pm

re: #386 LudwigVanQuixote

Oh brother. So if I whip my dick out in public, it’s not my fault, it’s the fault of the person who points and laughs?

What a childish little punk.

392 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:16:57pm

re: #391 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh brother. So if I whip my dick out in public, it’s not my fault, it’s the fault of the person who points and laughs?

What a childish little punk.

Sadly, he’s a punk who can do a fair bit of damage. This could get real ugly, real fast. Does anyone know who host “Diary of Daedalus”? Because this threat coupled with their hate content might be a terms of service violation.

393 sagehen  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:18:35pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

She may have been freaking out, she may have wanted her own doctor. It’s an odd story, but…eh. My own speculation runs to the idea that it may have had something to do with their insurance situation. My understanding is that she’s eligible for tribal healthcare with her pregnancies, through Todd.

My theory is that she had a perfectly ordinary, routine delivery the day after she got home from her trip, the whole rest of the story is some bullshit she made up just for the drama of it, and then when the spotlight came on she felt compelled to stick to the story.

394 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:19:00pm

re: #391 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh brother. So if I whip my dick out in public, it’s not my fault, it’s the fault of the person who points and laughs?

What a childish little punk.

Well he is thirty something, employed as a sales associate at the equivalent of a best buy and lives with his mum.

395 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:19:57pm

re: #392 Dark_Falcon

Sadly, he’s a punk who can do a fair bit of damage. This could get real ugly, real fast. Does anyone know who host “Diary of Daedalus”? Because this threat coupled with their hate content might be a terms of service violation.

[Link: www.domaintools.com…]

396 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:21:10pm

re: #391 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #391 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #384 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #373 Gus 802

So you good stout fellows will mail his employers with me if he crosses the line correct?

397 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:21:27pm

Ohh and DF too right?

398 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:26:26pm

re: #392 Dark_Falcon

Would this be useful?

399 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:27:18pm

re: #397 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh and DF too right?

Yes, I’m in.

400 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:29:01pm

re: #396 LudwigVanQuixote

Not sure what that would accomplish. I would think contacting the service provider about possible ToS violations would be the better route to go.

401 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:30:13pm

re: #399 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I’m in.

Good. What are the odds of a retail manager sticking up for a loser sales associate caught braking the law, particularly when the manager gets more than one complaint?

BY the way, since Chenzen posts from work, the store is legally on the hook for his actions… I am sure it is in his contract not to behave like he does.

402 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:30:43pm

re: #400 Slumbering Behemoth

Not sure what that would accomplish. I would think contacting the service provider about possible ToS violations would be the better route to go.

Agreed. Ludwig, I’ll stand with you, but let’s try the ToS track first.

And now I have to get to bed. Sorry, but I need 4 hours sleep.

403 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:31:19pm

re: #400 Slumbering Behemoth

Not sure what that would accomplish. I would think contacting the service provider about possible ToS violations would be the better route to go.

Ohhh for certain we do both.

But see my 401. This will cost him his little colored shirt. Hell it would cost him that right now if I pushed send ont eh mail I penned. The relevant law is very interesting.

404 Meitantei  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:33:14pm

re: #364 Gus 802

I can’t be the only one who read that black-mail article and thought about:

Youtube Video
405 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:34:51pm

Testing

406 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:35:21pm

re: #389 LudwigVanQuixote

I didn’t say Fellowship was a bad book! Far from it! I said that it is the weakest of the three. Much like LOTR, SoIaF needs to come to a boil.

I don’t see how you can compare SoIaF to Tolkien’s work. Lord of the Rings never descended into elaborate descriptions of sexual practices (with a hint of pedophile tendencies), or necrophiliac scenes. Instead he presented us with a meticulously modeled world, with it’s own vivid population, languages, history, gods, geography, etc. Something GRRM fails to deliver…

407 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:39:03pm

re: #403 LudwigVanQuixote

I seriously consider it. In the mean time, I’m knocking off. I’ll chat with ya tomorrow.

408 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:39:43pm

re: #406 yasharki

I don’t see how you can compare SoIaF to Tolkien’s work. Lord of the Rings never descended into elaborate descriptions of sexual practices (with a hint of pedophile tendencies), or necrophiliac scenes. Instead he presented us with a meticulously modeled world, with it’s own vivid population, languages, history, gods, geography, etc. Something GRRM fails to deliver…

The star of the Middle Earth books is Middle Earth itself. Tolkien can’t write dialogue to save his life and his characters are not exactly the most multidimensional. Then again they are not meant to be. I am not bashing Tolkien one bit.

All I am saying is that once you have read the third book in Ice and Fire you might be a much stronger supporter of it than you are now, much like it was Return of the King (and the appendices to it) that made the Tolkien series for me. Then again, My fav Tolkien is the Silmarillion… so that should say something about my tastes.

Ice and Fire has a very meticulous world, but it is utterly character driven in a way that Tolkien never managed.

409 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:39:53pm

re: #403 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohhh for certain we do both.

But see my 401. This will cost him his little colored shirt. Hell it would cost him that right now if I pushed send ont eh mail I penned. The relevant law is very interesting.

I’ll be watching.

410 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:40:59pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

Ever read the Guardians of the Flame series by Joel Rosenberg?

411 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:43:47pm

re: #410 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ever read the Guardians of the Flame series by Joel Rosenberg?

Wow that takes me back! Elegon… Two all beef patties…. Yeah I loved that series when I was a kid.

412 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:45:29pm

re: #411 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow that takes me back! Elegon… Two all beef patties… Yeah I loved that series when I was a kid.

Yeah, been a while, but a great series. Also a fan of the Vladimir Taltos books.

413 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:46:08pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

“Once you have read the third book in Ice and Fire you might be a much stronger supporter of it than you are now.

Nothing to be offered in way of argument before finishing the third book I guess… Don’t go away! Please, bear with me :)

414 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:48:17pm

re: #412 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yeah, been a while, but a great series. Also a fan of the Vladimir Taltos books.

I never liked those as much. I couldn’t get into them. I also burnt out on the Belgarioth books.

My fav series overall are Tolkien and Ice and Fire.

After that Feist’s Magician series through Darkness at Sethanon.

I haven’t seen any fantasy series other than those that really grabbed me like those.

415 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:48:28pm

and might as well ask, but anyone follow the Felix and Gotrek series?

416 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:48:38pm

re: #413 yasharki

Nothing to be offered in way of argument before finishing the third book I guess… Don’t go away! Please, bear with me :)

Of course my friend!

417 Kragar  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:51:38pm

re: #414 LudwigVanQuixote

I never liked those as much. I couldn’t get into them. I also burnt out on the Belgarioth books.

My fav series overall are Tolkien and Ice and Fire.

After that Feist’s Magician series through Darkness at Sethanon.

I haven’t seen any fantasy series other than those that really grabbed me like those.

Feist is great. Eddings is good for a trilogy, but give him more and he just keeps going and going.

418 yasharki  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:58:53pm

re: #416 LudwigVanQuixote

Of course my friend!

Out of curiosity, what do you think of Roger Zelazny’s “Amber” series? Personally I rate his first three books from “Amber Chronicles” as the “best fantasy books” evah :) Stainless Steel Rat is my sci-fi favorite.

419 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Dec 2, 2010 11:59:03pm

re: #389 LudwigVanQuixote

I didn’t say Fellowship was a bad book! Far from it! I said that it is the weakest of the three. Much like LOTR, SoIaF needs to come to a boil.

Some of the absolute best shit is in Fellowship, the Barrow Wights, Old man Willow, Watcher in the Water, and the Nazgul are absolutely creepy as hell. It’s the foundation for everything else to follow. Bombadil is a little bit goofy and doesn’t quite fit in thematically, but so what. For me the Two Towers is the most tedious, in as much as it resolves nothing and ends in a cliffhanger.

420 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:02:16am

re: #418 yasharki

Out of curiosity, what do you think of Roger Zelazny’s “Amber” series? Personally I rate his first three books from “Amber Chronicles” as the “best fantasy books” evah :) Stainless Steel Rat is my sci-fi favorite.

1. I loved the Stainless Steel Rat series!

2. I also loved the Amber series. That is one of the greatest fantasy series ever.

I suppose of the “classic” sci/fi fantsy series not mentioned yet,

My other favs are Dune and Mote in God’s Eye.

421 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:03:36am

re: #419 goddamnedfrank

Some of the absolute best shit is in Fellowship, the Barrow Wights, Old man Willow, Watcher in the Water, and the Nazgul are absolutely creepy as hell. It’s the foundation for everything else to follow. Bombadil is a little bit goofy and doesn’t quite fit in thematically, but so what. For me the Two Towers is the most tedious, in as much as it resolves nothing and ends in a cliffhanger.

To each his own. It was Return of the King that did it for me. I really liked the other books too. It is not as if I am going to argue with you.

422 Kragar  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:03:45am

re: #420 LudwigVanQuixote

1. I loved the Stainless Steel Rat series!

2. I also loved the Amber series. That is one of the greatest fantasy series ever.

I suppose of the “classic” sci/fi fantsy series not mentioned yet,

My other favs are Dune and Mote in God’s Eye.

Remember “The Fleet” series, late 80s, early 90s?

423 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:05:00am

re: #418 yasharki

And Honor Harrington is my fav “guilty pleasure” series along with the Leary series by Drake.

And I’ll speak the blasphemy, I prefer the Leary series to Harrington (even though I love her).

424 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:07:04am

re: #422 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Remember “The Fleet” series, late 80s, early 90s?

Great stuff! I assume you have also been following the Lost Fleet series, though to be honest, for that sort of thing, my fav are Weber’s Starfire books like In Death Ground.

425 Kragar  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:10:16am

re: #424 LudwigVanQuixote

Great stuff! I assume you have also been following the Lost Fleet series, though to be honest, for that sort of thing, my fav are Weber’s Starfire books like In Death Ground.

Haven’t read those. David Brin’s Uplift universe is one of my favorite sci fi, and 40k of course, The Gaunt’s Ghost series and the Eisenhorn trilogy particulary.

426 Kragar  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:13:42am

re: #425 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Haven’t read those. David Brin’s Uplift universe is one of my favorite sci fi, and 40k of course, The Gaunt’s Ghost series and the Eisenhorn trilogy particulary.

and how can I forget Ciaphis Cain! Take Bruce Campbell as a Commissar, make Baldrick from Blackadder his loyal aide and drop them into the grim future and its a slice of fried gold.

427 freetoken  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:16:50am
MP3 Audio
428 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:21:44am

re: #423 LudwigVanQuixote

And Honor Harrington is my fav “guilty pleasure” series along with the Leary series by Drake.

And I’ll speak the blasphemy, I prefer the Leary series to Harrington (even though I love her).

I must confess of being completely ignorant to existence of Harrington, or Leary series, by Weber and Drake respectively. If there’s another sci-fi/fantasy author I feel proud of, and remember reading it’s Clifford Simak.

429 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:37:21am

re: #426 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

and how can I forget Ciaphis Cain! Take Bruce Campbell as a Commissar, make Baldrick from Blackadder his loyal aide and drop them into the grim future and its a slice of fried gold.

Shop smart, shop Komi S Mart, u got that?

430 freetoken  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:42:33am
MP3 Audio
431 freetoken  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:47:27am
MP3 Audio
432 Kragar  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:54:15am

re: #429 yasharki

Shop smart, shop Komi S Mart, u got that?

“Ciaphas Cain ((Kai-a-fas Kane)) was an Imperial Commissar. He was in active service in the last century of M41, and was over 200 years old when he was recalled into service during the 13th Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler, and it is certain that he survived more than a quarter of a century into M42. Propaganda made him out to be the hero of the Imperium circa late M41 although in truth he was mainly focused on surviving. (However he differed from many other Imperial Commissars in that he would not readily sacrifice soldiers unless it ensured his own survival.) Cain tried his utmost to avoid engaging in actual combat, but would have to anyway to maintain his status as a Hero of the Imperium, which ironically, would involve him in more dangerous situations than any he would usually see as a Commissar. He was responsible for many successful campaigns throughout his career and retired to become a professor at a Schola Progenium.

In M42 his Memoirs were published among the ranks of the Inquisition. They are sequestered by order of the Holy Ordos, and are kept and organized as the Cain Archive by Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Amberley Vail with whom Cain had many encounters over his career, and shared a close working and personal relationship. It is worth noting, as Inquisitor Vail does in footnotes throughout his memoirs, that Cain was a skilled liar and dissembler, and therefore anything to which he refers that is not independently documented could well be a fabrication to maintain his reputation.”

433 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 1:27:40am

re: #432 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

“he would not readily sacrifice soldiers unless it ensured his own survival”

Nicely put, but a better description of a commisar would be: “it would readily sacrifice it’s own parents in order to insure it’s survival”.

434 freetoken  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 3:43:59am

This one goes out to all those getting up this morning and dressing themselves - something to remember:

MP3 Audio
435 Taqyia2Me  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 3:56:00am

RIP, Ron Santo, Chicago Cub, through and through.

436 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 3:57:30am

He once marketed a brand of frozen pizzas. I ate one and had a terrible allergic reaction that made me ill and puffed up my lips to twice their size.

But I forgive him because he was a great Cub.

437 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 4:02:05am

re: #435 Taqyia2Me

RIP, Ron Santo, Chicago Cub, through and through.

Sad

Hard nosed (but clean) player!

438 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 4:02:41am

re: #436 ralphieboy

He once marketed a brand of frozen pizzas. I ate one and had a terrible allergic reaction that made me ill and puffed up my lips to twice their size.
But I forgive him because he was a great Cub.

i know of super models that would pay extra for that!
/

439 researchok  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 4:09:30am

Morning, all

440 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 4:09:36am

I was thinking more of singers in hard rock bands…

441 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 4:11:09am

re: #440 ralphieboy

I was thinking more of singers in hard rock bands…

I’d rather the image of Heidi Klum than Keith Richards in my head, thankyouverymuch

442 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 4:12:40am

Depends on whether they are playing music or modelling swimsuits…

443 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 4:16:22am

re: #441 sattv4u2

I’d rather the image of Heidi Klum than Keith Richards in my head, thankyouverymuch

I’ll stay with Klum

I can always put on a CD!

444 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 4:17:34am

re: #442 ralphieboy

Depends on whether they are playing music or modelling swimsuits…

Poor sat will have dreams of Keith Richards modeling Speedos.
:P

445 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 4:19:31am

Image: File:Made_in_shade_album_cover.jpg

446 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 4:19:57am

re: #444 Varek Raith

Poor sat will have dreams of Keith Richards modeling Speedos.
:P

As long as he wears them over his face!

447 KayInMaine  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 5:27:21am

I don’t think he raped anyone. However, the US government would like him stopped, but how many other “Julians” are there in the background ready to publish more leaks even if he’s in jail?

448 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 5:28:23am

The whole “rape case” stinks like hell. Still, the law is the law, so Assange should voluntarily go to trial. If the case against him is weak, that will be exposed for all to see.

449 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 5:35:17am

re: #447 KayInMaine

I don’t think he raped anyone. However, the US government would like him stopped, but how many other “Julians” are there in the background ready to publish more leaks even if he’s in jail?

If anything non-legal happens to JA, it will only be a catalyst. I doubt it will be a deterrent at all, because JA-like people don’t think like average folks, and what would deter average folks would not necessarily deter people with skewed psychology.

450 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 5:35:43am

re: #447 KayInMaine

re: #448 Sergey Romanov

I don’t think he raped anyoneThe whole “rape case” stinks like hell

I’ll wait to see the evidence against him and what his defense is

451 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 5:38:02am

re: #450 sattv4u2

re: #448 Sergey Romanov

I don’t think he raped anyoneThe whole “rape case” stinks like hell

I’ll wait to see the evidence against him and what his defense is

I’m not saying anything about the evidence. The case stinks because of all the initial circumstances, both around the case and around Assange in general. That said, he should stand before the trial.

452 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 5:51:33am

Heh. :)
Image: alienvpredator.jpg

453 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 6:08:59am

Joe Dassin, Côté banjo, côté violon

Youtube Video
454 rwdflynavy  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 6:19:22am

Good Morning Lizards!

Sorry I missed the Fantasy/Sci Fi discussion. I’m reading the GRRM books again on my kindle and loving the series all over.

My tastes in both genres model the rest of the lizards who posted pretty closely.

456 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 6:45:34am

Good morning lizards!

457 rwdflynavy  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 6:47:38am

re: #456 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards!

Morning!

I made the mistake of looking at the comments on an article posted on Fark.

Why oh why did I do that!?

458 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 6:56:17am

re: #457 rwdflynavy

Morning!

I made the mistake of looking at the comments on an article posted on Fark.

Why oh why did I do that!?

Fark? I can’t remember the last time I visited that website. It’s been years.

459 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 6:56:25am

I’m here in the Big Apple for my grandson’s Bar Mitzvah

460 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 6:57:09am

re: #459 Alouette

I’m here in the Big Apple for my grandson’s Bar Mitzvah

Sweet! I love NYC. Have a great time!

461 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 6:59:42am

My son is going away for Shabbat so Zedushka and I are staying in his apartment. Of course he will be back for the Bar Mitzvah which is Sunday night.

Zedushka is also taking me out to dinner at a fancy new restaurant for my birthday. :)

462 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:07:40am

Some interesting news from Korea…

China Told U.S. of Underwater Nuclear Plant in N.Korea


China obtained information in 2008 that North Korea has a secret underwater nuclear facility in its coastal waters, leaked U.S. diplomatic cables show.

Senior N.Korean official defected to S.Korea


A NORTH Korean official overseeing a key provincial youth organisation has defected to South Korea, news reports said on Friday.

Chosun Ilbo daily quoted informed sources as saying Sol Jong Sik, first secretary of the Kim Il Sung Socialist Youth League committee in Ryanggang province, fled to the South in June last year.



South Korea’s defense minister vows airstrikes if North Korea attacks

South Korea’s new defense minister said his country would respond with airstrikes if North Korea attacks it again, South Korea’s Yonhap news agency reported Friday.

“We will definitely air raid North Korea,” Kim Kwan-jin said at his confirmation hearing when asked how the South would respond if struck again.

463 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:15:07am

How many people will be killed because of this leaked information?

Secret cable leaks fuel tensions in Lebanon

BEIRUT (AP) — Lebanon’s defense minister offered U.S. officials advice on how Israel could defeat the militant Hezbollah group in a future war and vowed to keep the Lebanese army out of the fighting, according to secret diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks.

That memo and another secret cable that revealed U.S. secret spy flights over Hezbollah locations in Lebanon in 2008 are sure to fuel tensions between the militant group and the Western-backed prime minister at a sensitive time.

464 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:16:51am

Ludwig you have converted me.

Fusion and Escape are already at the top of my wish list and they just also happen to come in hybrid models. The Fusion hybrid gets 41/mpg and the Escape gets 34/mpg.

465 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:18:21am

re: #464 Alouette

Ludwig you have converted me.

Fusion and Escape are already at the top of my wish list and they just also happen to come in hybrid models. The Fusion hybrid gets 41/mpg and the Escape gets 34/mpg.

I love my Jeep. I think I’ll keep it.

466 rwdflynavy  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:19:35am

re: #465 NJDhockeyfan

I love my Jeep. I think I’ll keep it.

I ride the metro train to work, so my MPG is pretty good.//

467 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:21:10am

re: #466 rwdflynavy

I ride the metro train to work, so my MPG is pretty good.//

The train goes up the mountain around here but doesn’t stop. Horse & buggies are gone. I have no choice but to drive my SUV.

468 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:25:58am

re: #464 Alouette

Ludwig you have converted me.

Fusion and Escape are already at the top of my wish list and they just also happen to come in hybrid models. The Fusion hybrid gets 41/mpg and the Escape gets 34/mpg.

The problem is that the hybrids are specifically excluded from all special offers and incentives that Ford is offering at this time. Maybe next year they will have something.

469 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:28:35am

re: #468 Alouette

The problem is that the hybrids are specifically excluded from all special offers and incentives that Ford is offering at this time. Maybe next year they will have something.



Hybrid smybrid!
Get one of these!
/

470 Taqyia2Me  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:35:43am

re: #461 Alouette

My son is going away for Shabbat so Zedushka and I are staying in his apartment. Of course he will be back for the Bar Mitzvah which is Sunday night.

Zedushka is also taking me out to dinner at a fancy new restaurant for my birthday. :)

Happy Birthday, Alouette!!

471 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:39:06am

Sheesh, the GOP is ridiculous.
Every thing they are bitching about with regards to DADT is exactly the same excuses used by opponents of integration.

472 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:41:20am

re: #470 Taqyia2Me

Happy Birthday, Alouette!!

There are a lot of Hanukkah birthdays in my family. 3 grandkids (including the Bar Mitzvah boy) and myself.

I gave my grandson his Hanukkah “gelt” and he said, “Where’s my birthday present?”

473 darthstar  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:42:32am

re: #471 Varek Raith

Sheesh, the GOP is ridiculous.
Every thing they are bitching about with regards to DADT is exactly the same excuses used by opponents of integration.

But if we let gays serve in the military, the next thing you know there will be gays performing on Broadway!

474 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:43:05am

re: #472 Alouette

There are a lot of Hanukkah birthdays in my family. 3 grandkids (including the Bar Mitzvah boy) and myself.

I gave my grandson his Hanukkah “gelt” and he said, “Where’s my birthday present?”

Happy birthday!

475 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:45:19am

Antigay group to be met with vigils and unity

When a notorious antigay church group from Kansas declared it would picket Framingham High School’s production of “The Laramie Project,’’ a play about the torture and murder of a young gay man, this diverse community 25 miles west of Boston had its own reaction.

Residents showed strong support for the controversial choice by helping to buy more than 1,400 tickets to the show.

For the first time in memory, drama director Donna Wresinski said, the high school’s fall production is completely sold out in advance.

The performances, scheduled for 7:30 tonight and tomorrow night, come after three community forums about tolerance, religion, gay rights, and bullying that were triggered by picketing threats from the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas.

And there is a planned candlelight vigil called “Love is Louder’’ to counter the demonstration planned by the church.

At the same time, students at Brandeis University in Waltham will hold a daylong celebration of the school’s commitment to tolerance as a way of combating the message of Westboro Baptist, whose members also plan to picket the school’s Hillel organization today.

Shirley Phelps-Roper, a leader in the church, internationally known for its inflammatory views on gays and non-Christians, said that about a half-dozen church members also plan to demonstrate against Harvard University’s Hillel center and at the Islamic Center of Boston in Wayland during their two-day trip to the Boston area.

Where do these shitbags get the money to travel around?

476 darthstar  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:45:46am

Alouette, Andy Williams, my little sister, and her first daughter…for all of you today.

Youtube Video
477 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:54:56am

Whatever you may think about Assange, the Swedish seem to have very special ideas about what rape might be

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…]

478 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:55:03am

re: #472 Alouette

There are a lot of Hanukkah birthdays in my family. 3 grandkids (including the Bar Mitzvah boy) and myself.

I gave my grandson his Hanukkah “gelt” and he said, “Where’s my birthday present?”

Happy Birthday!
Image: coolest-lizard-birthday-cake-8-21352265.jpg

479 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 7:56:12am

Happy birthday, Alouette!

480 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:02:11am

re: #478 Varek Raith

Happy Birthday!
Image: coolest-lizard-birthday-cake-8-21352265.jpg

Now that is COOL!

Happy birthday Alouette!

481 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:02:45am

BreakingNews President Obama arrives in Afghanistan for unannounced visit - ABC News

482 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:04:37am

re: #472 Alouette

My father’s birthday is two days after Christmas, one of my brother’s is four days after Christmas, my wife’s is five days after Christmas.

We’re aiming to have a kid born three days after Christmas, when we eventually have a kid. Just to make a nice solid block.

483 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:08:08am

re: #482 Obdicut

My father’s birthday is two days after Christmas, one of my brother’s is four days after Christmas, my wife’s is five days after Christmas.

We’re aiming to have a kid born three days after Christmas, when we eventually have a kid. Just to make a nice solid block.

Devious.
“Sorry, you either get Christmas presents or birthday presents. Not both.”
/

484 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:18:04am

My actual Hebrew birthday is tomorrow night.

485 S'latch  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:20:08am

re: #484 Alouette

Shabbos, Chanukah, Hebrew Birthday, all at one time?

486 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:22:47am

What’s the bottom line? Is Assange in custody? Is there a warrant out for his arrest? What exactly is he charged with and where? Or is it just another media outrage?

487 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:26:53am

re: #486 yasharki

He’s wanted for some sort of sexual assault charge in Sweden. I’m not aware of other charges actually made against him.

488 theheat  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:29:59am

re: #481 Stanley Sea

Maybe Obama wants to see how much American money Karzai’s scumbag brother is carrying.

489 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:31:34am

re: #486 yasharki

What’s the bottom line? Is Assange in custody? Is there a warrant out for his arrest? What exactly is he charged with and where? Or is it just another media outrage?

“But few outlets are as concerned as the Times with nuance. Washington’s Blog, to its credit, does report that the Swedish arrest warrant—and the following Interpol alert, adding Assange to its “most wanted” list—makes no reference to “rape.” Instead Assange is being sought for sexual “coercion,” after engaging in what was an allegedly non-consensual sex act with two women on two separate occasions within a short space of time. The act in question was sex without a condom, seemingly without the consent of the two women involved. Assange is also alleged to have been reluctant to submit to medical tests for sexually transmitted diseases. The two women reported him to the police, together, leading to the first arrest warrant for “rape,” from a duty prosecutor, which was quickly canceled, then a later warrant for “sexual coercion.”

[Link: www.fastcompany.com…]

490 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:39:34am

re: #489 Walter L. Newton

It seems a bit strange that the first woman he “coerced” fawns about him on Twitter AFTER she had consensual sex with him, only to complain about the condom issue when she learns that a second woman had sex with him.

Then she deletes her twitter posting (which was retrieved in time before it disappears), chats with the other woman on how to take revenge.

I don’t know. Assange may not be a moral person but if that’s rape I think that belittles the horrific experience of women who are truly raped.

If Interpol is putting out red alerts every time a woman has buyer’s remorse when she sleeps with a man without a condom, then Interpol is going to be very busy.

491 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:39:36am

Obama Makes Surprise Trip to Afghanistan

BAGRAM AIR FIELD, Afghanistan (AP) - President Barack Obama is in Afghanistan on an unannounced trip, one year after widening a war that has grown even deadlier for U.S. forces.

Obama arrived Friday under intense security for a six-hour visit to meet with Afghanistan’s president and thank U.S. troops for their sacrifices.

Be safe Mr. President.

492 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:41:29am

re: #489 Walter L. Newton

Right, that’s what I gathered from dailymail’s article Mark Winter mentioned, but if rape charges against him were dropped, why would he be arrested and face extradition in UK? Without the rape charges all that remains are attention-whoring whine from one of two chicks he supposedly got lucky with, about how she let him in without a parachute. I seriously doubt this can be prosecuted in any European country, forget about international warrants…

493 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:42:47am

re: #490 Mark Winter

It seems a bit strange that the first woman he “coerced” fawns about him on Twitter AFTER she had consensual sex with him, only to complain about the condom issue when she learns that a second woman had sex with him.

Then she deletes her twitter posting (which was retrieved in time before it disappears), chats with the other woman on how to take revenge.

I don’t know. Assange may not be a moral person but if that’s rape I think that belittles the horrific experience of women who are truly raped.

If Interpol is putting out red alerts every time a woman has buyer’s remorse when she sleeps with a man without a condom, then Interpol is going to be very busy.

I was just linking to information… I’m not supporting the allegations or dismissing them. Sweden views certain behavior differently then we do here.

494 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:43:53am

re: #490 Mark Winter

If the woman clearly stated that she didn’t want to have sex without a condom, then it really is a violation to have sex with her without a condom.

It’s best to be very, very careful with terms such as “buyer’s remorse”. That line of logic has dismissed many, many cases of coerced sex because the woman didn’t immediately go to the police, or stayed in a relationship with the man, etc.

The story seems rather confused at the moment, certainly. But I don’t think we know nearly enough to start accusing the women of making false charges.

495 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:45:14am

re: #492 yasharki

Right, that’s what I gathered from dailymail’s article Mark Winter mentioned, but if rape charges against him were dropped, why would he be arrested and face extradition in UK? Without the rape charges all that remains are attention-whoring whine from one of two chicks he supposedly got lucky with, about how she let him in without a parachute. I seriously doubt this can be prosecuted in any European country, forget about international warrants…

I don’t know… I was simply linking to information… I’ve been told that Sweden views certain behaviors differently than we do and we would be surprised what is considered prosecutable in Sweden.

496 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:45:18am

re: #492 yasharki

Using the phrase ‘attention-whore’ in this case is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Why are you so certain you know the facts of the case enough to dismiss her as such?

497 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:46:10am

re: #495 Walter L. Newton

Actually, Sweden has a history of NOT prosecuting non-violent sexual offenses.

[Link: www.thelocal.se…]

498 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:47:41am

re: #481 Stanley Sea

MSNBC Video

President Barack Obama slipped unannounced into dangerous Afghanistan on Friday, one year after widening an ever deadlier war and just days before a pivotal review about the 9-year-plus conflict.

Under intense security, Obama landed in night’s darkness after a clandestine departure from the White House on Thursday, where plans of his trip into the war zone were tightly guarded.

The White House said rough weather forced Obama to abruptly drop plans to meet Afghan President Hamid Karzai in Kabul. The White House determined the wind, dust and cloud cover made it unsafe for the president to fly by helicopter from the huge military complex here to the presidential palace 30 miles away.

In a rapidly changing sequence of events, the White House then said they would speak by secure videoconference — but later said that, too, was dropped. Instead, the two leaders were expected to speak by phone.

499 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:48:15am

re: #494 Obdicut

If the woman clearly stated that she didn’t want to have sex without a condom, then it really is a violation to have sex with her without a condom.

It’s best to be very, very careful with terms such as “buyer’s remorse”. That line of logic has dismissed many, many cases of coerced sex because the woman didn’t immediately go to the police, or stayed in a relationship with the man, etc.

The story seems rather confused at the moment, certainly. But I don’t think we know nearly enough to start accusing the women of making false charges.

re: #496 Obdicut

Using the phrase ‘attention-whore’ in this case is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Why are you so certain you know the facts of the case enough to dismiss her as such?

I agree with both of your comments.

But we also don’t know, yet, enough of the story to say Assange raped the woman, given my understanding of rape.

But the “sex by surprise” phrase is a strange phrase to use, IMO:

Assange’s current lawyer then revealed Swedish prosectors had told him they were not seeking Assange for “rape” at all, instead the alleged crime is “sex by surprise,” which carries a penalty of a fine, although the details of the allegations haven’t been revealed yet.

How does that differ from rape?

500 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:48:18am

re: #498 lawhawk

That sucks. All that effort, and the last 30 miles are too dangerous.

501 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:49:01am

re: #494 Obdicut

True.

Confession time: when I heard of the prosecutors withdrawing the order for arrest the first time, I coupled it with the very strange details in the women’s stories and the situation around Assange, and basically concluded that it was a set-up, perhaps related to the leaks. A temporary bout of paranoia, if you will. Oh well, lesson learned.

502 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:49:31am

re: #494 Obdicut

Funny thing is this woman isn’t claiming that she was forced to have sex with or without a condom, she’s just bitching about finding out that he had sex with an acquaintance of her’s. If she wasn’t forced, wasn’t passed out, she must have consented, no? Where’s a crime in that?

503 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:50:09am

re: #496 Obdicut

Using the phrase ‘attention-whore’ in this case is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Why are you so certain you know the facts of the case enough to dismiss her as such?

Can I make a lucky guess?

504 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:50:43am

re: #499 reine.de.tout

See my above link on Sweden and sex crimes. Historically, Sweden has tended not to prosecute non-violent rape as rape, instead treating it as a myriad of other charges.

I certainly am not saying there’s enough evidence to say Assange is guilty of anything, except rather obviously using his fame to get sex. Whether or not he’s crossed legal or ethical lines in doing so isn’t clear.

505 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:51:12am

re: #497 Obdicut

Actually, Sweden has a history of NOT prosecuting non-violent sexual offenses.

[Link: www.thelocal.se…]

I just finished watching both “The girl With the Dragon Tattoo” and “The Girl Who Played with Fire” (and will watch “The Girl Who Kicked The Hornets Nest”) and part of the theme of those books/movies is the lack of proper prosecution of what we would consider sex crimes and the way the authorities will turn a blind eye to that sort of behavior.

506 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:51:21am

From the article:

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange is facing arrest for violating a Swedish law about sex without condoms, rather than a mainstream interpretation of “rape.” Yet that’s the charge reports often levy against him. Behold the smear campaign.

The New York Times wrote about the case on Thursday, noting that Swedish authorities were hunting Assange on charges of “rape, sexual molestation, and unlawful coercion.” It commented on the alleged offense, stating claims by two women that “each had consensual sexual encounters with Mr. Assange that became nonconsensual.”

The Swedish charges aren’t exactly new, though. Some of the media had reported “rape” allegations back in August, and the Daily Mail even asserted the first alleged illegal act occurred when a condom broke, and the woman concerned “whatever her views about the incident,” then “appeared relaxed and untroubled at the seminar the next day.” At this seminar, Assange met the second alleged victim and “a source close to the investigation said the woman had insisted he wear a condom, but the following morning he made love to her without one.”

507 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:52:08am

re: #500 Obdicut

But for those troops with whom the President met along the way, I’d say that trip was worth it. Still, it does suck that they couldn’t get Karzai and Obama together in the same place when they were so close.

508 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:52:17am

re: #502 yasharki

She actually is saying that he promised to use a condom and then didn’t. We have no idea of the circumstances under which this happened, whether there was any coercion or diminished capacity involved. I’m not sure why you’re insisting that you do, in fact, know.

509 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:52:47am

re: #505 Walter L. Newton

I just finished watching both “The girl With the Dragon Tattoo” and “The Girl Who Played with Fire” (and will watch “The Girl Who Kicked The Hornets Nest”) and part of the theme of those books/movies is the lack of proper prosecution of what we would consider sex crimes and the way the authorities will turn a blind eye to that sort of behavior.

Should have added… in Sweden. The stories take place in Sweden.

510 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:53:49am

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Should have added… in Sweden. The stories take place in Sweden.

I have the books and tried to read them, but the odd-to-my-ears names got me confused. Same problem I have with books that use Russian names.

I’ll have to try it again and really focus hard.

511 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:54:04am

re: #494 Obdicut

If the woman clearly stated that she didn’t want to have sex without a condom, then it really is a violation to have sex with her without a condom.

Actually you’d be right but this is not what seems to have happened. From what I read the following happened: The condom broke which was only discovered after the sex act and he said it wasn’t intentional.

And the next day she goes out with him in public to a crayfish banquet and raves about being with the “coolest people in the world”?

She then learns that he has sex with another woman, and the story changes.

I don’t think she’s doing women who are REALLY sexually raped or coerced a favour.

512 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:56:11am

WikiLeaks chief: Expect UFO talk in future files

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange said on Friday that there were some references to UFOs in “yet-to-be-published” confidential files obtained from the U.S. government.

513 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:56:12am

re: #508 Obdicut

She actually is saying that he promised to use a condom and then didn’t. We have no idea of the circumstances under which this happened, whether there was any coercion or diminished capacity involved. I’m not sure why you’re insisting that you do, in fact, know.


They dropped rape charges if I’m not mistaken, doesn’t that rule out coercion?

514 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:56:32am

CBS News Poll: Most Oppose GOP Tax Plan

The poll finds that 53 percent of Americans want the Bush-era tax cuts extended only for households earning less than $250,000 per year. That roughly matches the proposal put forth by the White House, which wants to extend the cuts only for incomes less than $250,000 for families and $200,000 for individuals.

Just 26 percent of Americans say they support extending the cuts for all Americans, even those earning above the $250,000 level, which is the GOP proposal.

515 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:57:09am

re: #510 reine.de.tout

I have the books and tried to read them, but the odd-to-my-ears names got me confused. Same problem I have with books that use Russian names.

I’ll have to try it again and really focus hard.

All three books have been filmed, and you can see them on video, dubbed in English or you can watch with sub titles. I didn’t read the books, two people at home here did, and they say the screenplay’s do justice to the stories.

Typical of foreign films, wonderful acting, and very interesting, without all the unneeded action scenes and over blown budget.

Recommended.

516 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:58:17am

re: #256 reine.de.tout

Yes, but the “those guys are worse” argument is weak sauce.
/ / / /

Yes, 15,000 more dead than previously reported is awful, and very very sad, and we all it were not so.

400,000 in mass graves by the Saddam regime - just that much worse, and how many MORE than 15,000 would be dead now?

Actually, there have been only about 5000 found. The 400,000 is taken from a Tony Blair speech, and unfortunately for Blair, has no basis in reality.

517 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:58:43am

re: #515 Walter L. Newton

All three books have been filmed, and you can see them on video, dubbed in English or you can watch with sub titles. I didn’t read the books, two people at home here did, and they say the screenplay’s do justice to the stories.

Typical of foreign films, wonderful acting, and very interesting, without all the unneeded action scenes and over blown budget.

Recommended.

OK, I’ll find the videos then.
thanks.

518 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 8:59:50am

This may be worth reading, too.

[Link: radsoft.net…]

519 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:00:44am

re: #517 reine.de.tout

OK, I’ll find the videos then.
thanks.

Warning… very graphic violent sex.

520 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:01:07am

re: #511 Mark Winter

Actually you’d be right but this is not what seems to have happened. From what I read the following happened: The condom broke which was only discovered after the sex act and he said it wasn’t intentional.

No, there are two separate incidents being mentioned about not using a condom, actually.

I don’t think she’s doing women who are REALLY sexually raped or coerced a favour.

I don’t think you’re doing yourself a favor by attempting to judge the merits of this case based on a Daily Mail report.

There is not enough information to conclude anything.

521 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:05:36am

re: #516 Fozzie Bear

Actually, there have been only about 5000 found. The 400,000 is taken from a Tony Blair speech, and unfortunately for Blair, has no basis in reality.

I was responding to a post by Gus:

re: #244 Gus 802

Do you have a link to the information about the exact number (5,000 vs. 400,000)? Seriously, I’m interested in knowing what the number is. I don’t know how they come up with these numbers, anyhow -

You’re the second person to pick ME out of that 3-comment exchange where my comment was the last one to be made, in order to set me straight about a comment I responded to, did not make.

Is there something in the water?

522 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:05:38am

re: #508 Obdicut

I’m not sure why you’re insisting that you do, in fact, know.

I do not know. What I notice are serious inconsistencies which are leading to a character assassination without ANY files being charged against him yet.

Right now he is only wanted for questioning which he has never refused. He was free to leave Sweden then, having offered to be questioned before he left.

So months later, with nothing new, on the day the cables are published, the Swedish prosecution changes its mind.

How many red alerts are out there for having sex without a condom?

523 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:08:09am

re: #521 reine.de.tout

I think you just got unlucky with a random troll attack. The Assange thing bring out some weird supporters.

524 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:08:28am

re: #518 Mark Winter

You don’t find that article you just linked to pretty creepy? It names the woman— something that’s generally taboo in rape cases. And the author of it runs a website that, in translation, appears to defend the position that in cases where no violence is used, rape cannot have occurred.

I do not get the immediate desire to conclude the facts of this case based on incomplete reports. Can you explain?

525 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:08:59am


Marijuana Cafes Crackdown To Start In Netherlands

The Netherlands’ justice minister and five southern Dutch cities say they will implement new restrictions on marijuana cafes after a wave of drug-related gangland violence.

They said Friday the measures include shutting down many cafes, using tax and accounting laws to seize criminal assets, and introducing a “members only” pass system for remaining cafes.

526 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:09:58am

re: #523 Killgore Trout

I think you just got unlucky with a random troll attack. The Assange thing bring out some weird supporters.

I swear -
The first guy called me A LIAR, no ifs ands or buts about it, when I pointed out that I didn’t make the comment.

Now a second person picks out my 3rd comment in a series of comments on the matter, and addresses me as if I made it.

If I were a suspicious person, I would be starting to believe there was some effort to discredit me.

527 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:10:42am

re: #521 reine.de.tout

I was responding to a post by Gus:

re: #244 Gus 802

Do you have a link to the information about the exact number (5,000 vs. 400,000)? Seriously, I’m interested in knowing what the number is. I don’t know how they come up with these numbers, anyhow -

You’re the second person to pick ME out of that 3-comment exchange where my comment was the last one to be made, in order to set me straight about a comment I responded to, did not make.

Is there something in the water?

I’m just responding to a false claim as I come across it.

In 2003, Tony Blair made a speech (actually a series of speeches) in which he said “We’ve already discovered, just so far, the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves.’ This is a complete fabrication. As for 2004, a year later, 5,000 bodies had been found in mass graves in Iraq. The number is probably higher now, a few years later. Now, that’s still very bad, but I find it interesting that so many people still refer to thoroughly discredited accounts, and the accounts of people who have lied to the public repeatedly regarding Iraq, including Blair, for statistics on this issue.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk…]

There’s nothing in the water other than an aversion to manufactured statistics, quoted from sources that have already been repeatedly shamed publicly for their blatant dissembling and dishonesty. Namely: Blair.

528 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:11:12am

re: #523 Killgore Trout

I think you just got unlucky with a random troll attack. The Assange thing bring out some weird supporters.

I’m a troll now?

Piss off, ass.

529 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:12:08am

re: #520 Obdicut

It’s not just the Daily Mail report.
Seriously, would you go out with the guy who “sexually coerced” you the night before and rave about him on twitter, only to delete your twitter postings after you discover that another woman has sex with him, the two woman then decide to go to the police, not to accuse him of rape or sexual coercion, but only to ask whether this was all right what he did?

I thought this was Sweden, country of the most emancipated women on this planet?

530 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:13:04am

re: #524 Obdicut

Okay, reading more from Goran Rudling, it looks like I’m quite wrong about him thinking only violent rape is rape.

Which makes it all the odder that he’s immediately rushing to judgment in this case and releasing the woman’s name.

531 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:14:39am

re: #526 reine.de.tout

I swear -
The first guy called me A LIAR, no ifs ands or buts about it, when I pointed out that I didn’t make the comment.

Now a second person picks out my 3rd comment in a series of comments on the matter, and addresses me as if I made it.

If I were a suspicious person, I would be starting to believe there was some effort to discredit me.

(hug)

532 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:15:09am

re: #529 Mark Winter

I thought this was Sweden, country of the most emancipated women on this planet?

Please read above, the link about the general non-prosecution of rape and sexual crimes in Sweden and Scandanavia in general. Your impression is very wrong.

Seriously, would you go out with the guy who “sexually coerced” you the night before and rave about him on twitter, only to delete your twitter postings after you discover that another woman has sex with him, the two woman then decide to go to the police, not to accuse him of rape or sexual coercion, but only to ask whether this was all right what he did?

I’m not going to engage with your speculation based on limited information. I have zero desire to do it. I’m not sure why you do. Can you explain?

533 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:15:34am

re: #528 Fozzie Bear

I’m a troll now?

Piss off, ass.

you are not a random troll. check the bottom comments.

534 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:16:25am

re: #523 Killgore Trout

Fozzie isn’t a troll, and I do think that he’s correct that the number of people found in mass graves is far, far less than 5,000.

I didn’t read Fozzie’s statement as an attack on Reine, but an attack on Blair’s statement. Did I miss something?

535 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:17:16am

re: #524 Obdicut

I though we had already established that at least it was no rape case.

The names of the two women have been named time and again in the the Swedish press.

But if you insist on taboo (which I understand), shouldn’t at least some discretion apply when it comes to the accused? Does he have no rights, at least until files are charged against him?

536 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:17:19am

re: #527 Fozzie Bear

I’m just responding to a false claim as I come across it.

In 2003, Tony Blair made a speech (actually a series of speeches) in which he said “We’ve already discovered, just so far, the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves.’ This is a complete fabrication. As for 2004, a year later, 5,000 bodies had been found in mass graves in Iraq. The number is probably higher now, a few years later. Now, that’s still very bad, but I find it interesting that so many people still refer to thoroughly discredited accounts, and the accounts of people who have lied to the public repeatedly regarding Iraq, including Blair, for statistics on this issue.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk…]

There’s nothing in the water other than an aversion to manufactured statistics, quoted from sources that have already been repeatedly shamed publicly for their blatant dissembling and dishonesty. Namely: Blair.

Ah, Ok, thanks for the info.

As far as the responding to false claims as you see them:

It was posted by Gus at 244.

My response was 11 comments later at 256.

And you’re the SECOND person in this thread to bring it up from my comment rather than the actual first comment where it appeared. And the first one who did called me a liar when I pointed out to him that I didn’t make the original comment. So, yeah - I’m thinking something’s in the water.

537 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:18:03am

Ugh. Every single time I don’t read the entire thread, I end up not notincing something like this, it seems.

Apologies to both Reine and KT. My response above (516, 527) are based on the thread up to post 256. I hadn’t read past that yet as of my post 516.

538 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:18:25am

re: #536 reine.de.tout

Ah, Ok, thanks for the info.

As far as the responding to false claims as you see them:

It was posted by Gus at 244.

My response was 11 comments later at 256.

And you’re the SECOND person in this thread to bring it up from my comment rather than the actual first comment where it appeared. And the first one who did called me a liar when I pointed out to him that I didn’t make the original comment. So, yeah - I’m thinking something’s in the water.

Don’t read too much into it. It happens to me from time to time - people don’t read to the top of a chain of comments.

539 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:18:41am

re: #537 Fozzie Bear

However, I’m not trolling, and I stick to my guns. Don’t call me a troll.

540 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:18:51am

re: #534 Obdicut

Fozzie isn’t a troll, and I do think that he’s correct that the number of people found in mass graves is far, far less than 5,000.

I didn’t read Fozzie’s statement as an attack on Reine, but an attack on Blair’s statement. Did I miss something?

What you missed happened last night with another commenter, not Fozzie.
Although Fozzie IS the second person to ascribe the false numbers to a comment I made, rather than to first comment it appeared in, 11 before mine. Which is weird, IMO.

Don’t worry about it.

541 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:19:01am

re: #535 Mark Winter

I though we had already established that at least it was no rape case.

According to Sweden’s laws, not rape. What it would be in the US is not known. Please take the time to read the link I provided.


But if you insist on taboo (which I understand), shouldn’t at least some discretion apply when it comes to the accused? Does he have no rights, at least until files are charged against him?

Two wrongs don’t make a right. And you are concluding, repeatedly, that the woman is unstrustworthy, that she’s making a false charge. Can you explain why you’re willing to do so based on the limited and confused stories provided?

542 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:19:15am

Bringing up Saddam’s old victims to excuse the 100,000+ deaths caused by the Iraq war is one of the most absurd arguments I’ve seen. The war did not stop any large scale murder - those were victims of the past murder committed under very specific circumstances and there was no evidence whatsoever that Saddam would start any large scale massacres in the future (and that wasn’t even one of the reasons given for the invasion; as HRW noted, it was not a humanitarian intervention). There is simply no a posteriori justification for the Iraq war, no matter how much anyone wants to be among “the good guys”.

543 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:19:42am

re: #531 wozzablog

(hug)

Aw
{{hugs}} back.

544 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:20:21am

re: #537 Fozzie Bear

Ugh. Every single time I don’t read the entire thread, I end up not notincing something like this, it seems.

Apologies to both Reine and KT. My response above (516, 527) are based on the thread up to post 256. I hadn’t read past that yet as of my post 516.

Heh.
Happens to me to at times.
You think I’d learn, but nooooooooo ….
No worries.

545 darthstar  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:22:04am

re: #512 NJDhockeyfan

WikiLeaks chief: Expect UFO talk in future files

Now THAT’S what people have been waiting for.

546 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:23:38am

re: #539 Fozzie Bear

However, I’m not trolling, and I stick to my guns. Don’t call me a troll.

i believe (and don’t wanna speak for KGT) the troll being referenced was somebody upthread who used the L word, and who presently resides in the bottom comments in the side panel.

547 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:24:28am

re: #545 darthstar

Now THAT’S what people have been waiting for.

Seriously, that would blow my mind. If Assange really REALLY wants some serious attention (it’s apparent he does), revealing that UFO’s are real and supplying evidence… now THAT would be one hell of a story.

548 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:25:14am

re: #546 wozzablog

i believe (and don’t wanna speak for KGT) the troll being referenced was somebody upthread who used the L word, and who presently resides in the bottom comments in the side panel.

Yeah I didn’t know the context of the whole ACTUAL trolling incident, and thought KT was just sniping. Needless to say, I bristled.

549 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:25:38am

re: #532 Obdicut

I’m not going to engage with your speculation based on limited information. I have zero desire to do it. I’m not sure why you do. Can you explain?

Because having only limited information it seems to be an established fact already that Assange is a “rapist”.

The problem I see here that if the Swedish definition of rape or sexual coercion holds, accusing a man of “rape” becomes a weapon.

And then Assange’s lawyers have not received a single official document until November 18, 2010 (and then in Swedish language contrary to European Law) and had to learn about the status of investigations through prosecution media announcements.

Strange ideed

550 darthstar  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:26:18am

re: #547 Fozzie Bear

Seriously, that would blow my mind. If Assange really REALLY wants some serious attention (it’s apparent he does), revealing that UFO’s are real and supplying evidence… now THAT would be one hell of a story.

Technically speaking, if UFOs are real AND we know about them, then they’re no longer unidentified.

551 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:26:52am

re: #542 Sergey Romanov

You can always look at NYSE:HAL 10yr chart to find some justification.

552 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:27:28am

re: #540 reine.de.tout

What you missed happened last night with another commenter, not Fozzie.
Although Fozzie IS the second person to ascribe the false numbers to a comment I made, rather than to first comment it appeared in, 11 before mine. Which is weird, IMO.

Don’t worry about it.

For some reason I missed the number in Gus’s post above yours, then saw it in yours.

Please consider my post directed at Tony Blair, and the reliability of Tony Blair as a source. Not you, or Gus, really.

553 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:27:50am

I’m so jumping late into the thread, but who cares! :)

Personally two authors that I’ve always felt were underrated are Stephen R. Donaldson and David Gerrold.

Donaldson’s White Gold Wielder series contains one of the most compelling anti-hero’s I’ve ever read. his Gap series is also one of those fascinating series that turns every major character alternately either into the Antagonist, Hero, Victim, or Martyr. He also tends to be incredibly vivid with his descriptions and his plots can get incredibly convoluted (which is what makes the gap series so challenging and yet enjoyable to read). For the hard boiled detectives, read the “Man who Fought Alone”, it’s one of those hidden treats.

David Gerrold’s best work is his War against the Chtorr, which attempts to create an entire world built around an alien invasion. However, instead of it being little green men, it’s an ecological invasion, bent on replacing and eradicating terrestrial life with a more aggressive alien ecosystem. It’s just unfortunate that he’s still finishing book five, after book 4 was put out in what, 1992? (but supposedly book 5 has a release date of June 2011, we’ll see if that holds up).

If you haven’t taken the time to read either of those two, they’re both challenging and yet rewarding Authors IMO.

554 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:27:58am

re: #550 darthstar

Technically speaking, if UFOs are real AND we know about them, then they’re no longer unidentified.

“FO’s” just doesn’t have the same ring to it as “UFO’s”.

555 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:29:20am

re: #549 Mark Winter

Because having only limited information it seems to be an established fact already that Assange is a “rapist”.

How so? Not from me, certainly, since I’ve repeated over and over we can’t conclude anything. So who are you talking to? Why are you responding to what you see as an unfair conclusion against Assange with a similar conclusion against the women?


The problem I see here that if the Swedish definition of rape or sexual coercion holds, accusing a man of “rape” becomes a weapon.

Please, you’re not listening to me. Sweden has a weaker definition of rape than the US does. Please, please read this link.

[Link: www.thelocal.se…]

556 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:30:08am

re: #554 Fozzie Bear

“FO’s” just doesn’t have the same ring to it as “UFO’s”.

IIRC that the nomenclature becomes IFO.

557 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:31:52am

re: #541 Obdicut

The funny thing is that the women are not even making any charges against him, because making false charges is a crime in Sweden.

So they just “consult” with police and the prosecution then decides whether it thinks that this was rape, sexual coercion or whatever.

And despite several offers of Assange to be questioned while in Sweden, they say, no thank you, not necessary.

After several months Assange leaves Sweden, and before he leaves he asks the prosecution: Am I still needed for questioning. Am I free to go. They say, no, you are free to go.

And THEN they file a warrant, withdraw it the next day. Wait for more weeks.

And then when the material is released they suddenly ask Interpol to issue a red alert?

Sorry this smells.

558 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:32:05am

re: #556 bloodstar

IIRC that the nomenclature becomes IFO.

Hell at that point we would probably just refer to them as “Zorgon* Craft”.

* Insert actual name of alien race here.

559 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:33:25am

re: #556 bloodstar

IIRC that the nomenclature becomes IFO.

Away from the crazies who see UFO’s under every rock, a lot of folks interested in the phenomena prefer a more accurate description as UAO… unidentified aerial object… since there is no way to actually determine if an object sighted moving through the sky is actually “flying” as in the sense of being controlled by some intelligent operative.

560 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:34:08am

Monetary Policy: Fed Critic Ron Paul’s Power Play

….Fed officials, and even Republican House leaders worried that Paul’s agenda could roil the markets and make a mockery of the U.S. financial system. This is a man, after all, who entered politics because President Richard Nixon bucked the gold standard in 1971, and now wants to make gold and silver legal tender. He is pressing for an audit of the Fort Knox bullion depository and, earlier this year, grilled Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke about the central bank’s alleged funding of Watergate and Saddam Hussein’s nuclear program. Bernanke called the charges “absolutely bizarre.”

561 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:35:50am

re: #557 Mark Winter

Why are you so interested in attacking the women, though? I don’t get it.

There isn’t enough information to conclude anything. So why are you concluding things?

Have you read the link I posted yet?

562 darthstar  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:37:03am

re: #558 Fozzie Bear

Hell at that point we would probably just refer to them as “Zorgon* Craft”.

* Insert actual name of alien race here.

Who told you about the Zorgons? That’s supposed to be a secret.

563 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:37:53am

re: #562 darthstar

Who told you about the Zorgons? That’s supposed to be a secret.

There was a reference to them in one of the Vogons poems.

564 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:38:29am

My next door neighbor burned her house down this morning. She had a grease fire while cooking sausage, panicked, and threw water on it. The poor woman paid for that mistake with her home.

People, I know most of you probably know this but never EVER try to extinguish a grease (or electrical) fire with water. Keep baking soda near the stove.

This is so sad.

565 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:39:57am

re: #555 Obdicut

Please, you’re not listening to me. Sweden has a weaker definition of rape than the US does. Please, please read this link.

I have read it. In Assange’s case it doesn’t seem to make a difference though.
He’s wanted for “sexual offenses”

Both women have publicly bragged about their “conquest” (the Swedish prosecutors confirmed this) before they changed the story after learning from each other.

566 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:40:57am

re: #557 Mark Winter

Nicely put, just what I was trying to say. Don’t get me wrong I’m not defending Assange in the least, and am not trolling. I just think he should be tried for what we really think he’s done wrong, instead of having a celebrity-rape circus…

567 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:41:47am

re: #563 Walter L. Newton

There was a reference to them in one of the Vogons poems.

I think that’s probably where I got it. I have read HHGTTG so many times it’s part of my subconscious, apparently.

568 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:41:59am

re: #565 Mark Winter

I have read it. In Assange’s case it doesn’t seem to make a difference though.
He’s wanted for “sexual offenses”

That is my goddamn point. If you’ve read what I posted, you know that Sweden is a country where it’s very, very hard to prosecute for rape, that many things that are considered rape or serious sexual assault in America are treated very lightly there. That alone explains the reason why the women might need the support of each other in order to to go the police— one woman on her own is often dismissed in Sweden.

Both women have publicly bragged about their “conquest” (the Swedish prosecutors confirmed this) before they changed the story after learning from each other.

I can see that you’re just going to continue to attack the women repeatedly, no matter what. I just want to know why. Can you explain what your motive is?

569 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:43:11am

re: #464 Alouette

Ludwig you have converted me.

Fusion and Escape are already at the top of my wish list and they just also happen to come in hybrid models. The Fusion hybrid gets 41/mpg and the Escape gets 34/mpg.

Thank you.

570 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:43:21am

re: #555 Obdicut

How so? Not from me, certainly, since I’ve repeated over and over we can’t conclude anything. So who are you talking to? Why are you responding to what you see as an unfair conclusion against Assange with a similar conclusion against the women?

Please, you’re not listening to me. Sweden has a weaker definition of rape than the US does. Please, please read this link.

[Link: www.thelocal.se…]

To be honest, I think this is a smear job based on a grain of truth.

The question is, how big is the grain of truth.
We’re seeing all sorts of differing stories out there?
Did he wear a condom did he not wear a condom?
Did it break? did he know it break?
Did she protest after the condom broke? did she not?

In the US, I can’t imagine a prosecutor touching this with a 10 foot pole. The fact that they had sex isn’t in dispute, that it was initially consensual isn’t in dispute. There is no other evidence of her protestation, IE a video or audio recording? So the prosecutor would have to look at her other behaviors. Did she continue to associate with the accused? What statements did she make after the date of the incident? how long did she wait to make the accusations? how long did she wait to go to the police to file a report?

That’s where things become a smear job. The terms Rape, Terrorist, Pedophilia etc. seem to be bandied about at the drop of a hat now. So those words are used to make the individual accused untouchable and indefensible. It’s a great way to isolate someone, and it’s particularly effective when the person isn’t someone you like very much anyway. After all, if he’s a bit of an asshole, we’re more likely to accept that he’s a rapist too, right? Even if you don’t get everyone to accept the charges and isolate him, it’s enough to diminish him because the focus then becomes him, and not the stuff he’s released.

It’s the ultimate ad hominem attack. and it’s frighteningly effective.

571 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:43:25am

Would be cool if WL uncovers the Ur-Quan. //

Youtube Video
572 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:46:46am

re: #570 bloodstar

I simply think there is not enough information available to make any conclusion whatsoever. I’m really, really, really not sure why the hell everyone is so eager to come to one conclusion or another.

We don’t, actually, know everything the women told the police and/or prosecutors. We don’t, actually, know the full circumstances of the sexual encounters.

Yes, the word ‘rape’ is highly charged, and an accusation of it on its own is harmful. And yes, there’s a lot of people who are pissed at Assange who are happy to see this charge made against him, and who don’t particularly care about its accuracy.

That has zero bearing on whether we know enough to dismiss the charges. We don’t.

573 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:50:21am

re: #567 Fozzie Bear

I think that’s probably where I got it. I have read HHGTTG so many times it’s part of my subconscious, apparently.

Have you read Where God Went Wrong, Some More of God’s Greatest Mistakes and Who is this God Person Anyway?

574 Gus  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:50:38am

President Obama Speaks to the Troops
Afghanistan

White House ilve stream.

1:00 PM EST or about 9 minutes from now.

CNN will also cover it live.

575 Yukon Digger  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:51:03am

WikiLeaks founder calls for Flanagan charge
[Link: www.cbc.ca…]

576 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:51:37am

How the Kochs Plotted the TSA Outrage by Building the TSA

The tete-a-tete over “TSAstroturf” is over, basically, but I point to this because it’s 1) hilarious and 2) illustrative about how the libertarian intellectual sphere actually works. It has factions. The factions do not trust each other. And a ton of libertarians, centered around Rockwell’s Ludwig von Mises Institute, think that the Kochs are corporate shills who make fatal bargains with the state. When I talked to Rockwell about the Kochs last summer,* he was crystal clear on this: The Kochs are oligarchs, rent-seekers who only want to attack the state to benefit their interests. And Rockwell et al, indeed, are probably the most energetic libertarian opponents of the Homeland Security state on the planet, with WorldNetDaily fighting for second place.

I keep harping on this, but I don’t think it’s good for liberals if they start viewing the Kochs the way that replacement-level conservative pundits view George Soros, as puppet masters behind every cause in their movement. Tracking the money is useful, and explains how ideas are spread, but not where ideas come from.

577 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:53:04am

re: #572 Obdicut

At least two people articulated their conclusions to you in great detail. You can disagree with said conclusions, but you cannot dismiss them like you do…

578 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:54:31am

re: #564 Fozzie Bear

My next door neighbor burned her house down this morning. She had a grease fire while cooking sausage, panicked, and threw water on it. The poor woman paid for that mistake with her home.

People, I know most of you probably know this but never EVER try to extinguish a grease (or electrical) fire with water. Keep baking soda near the stove.

This is so sad.

Or wet a tea towel thrown over the pan. (don’t let it fall in)

579 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:55:16am

re: #572 Obdicut

I simply think there is not enough information available to make any conclusion whatsoever. I’m really, really, really not sure why the hell everyone is so eager to come to one conclusion or another.

We don’t, actually, know everything the women told the police and/or prosecutors. We don’t, actually, know the full circumstances of the sexual encounters.

Yes, the word ‘rape’ is highly charged, and an accusation of it on its own is harmful. And yes, there’s a lot of people who are pissed at Assange who are happy to see this charge made against him, and who don’t particularly care about its accuracy.

That has zero bearing on whether we know enough to dismiss the charges. We don’t.

I agree, and sorry, i wasn’t clear, I think that things should be permitted to play itself out. and if he’s found guilty then he is found guilty.

My larger point (which I should have edited down and clarified honestly, but that’s not as fun as just typing stream of conscience) was that stuff like this is used to smear the person. make the person scum, and you don’t have to answer to the larger issues brought up.

I think of Richard Jewell, who found that his collection of porno magazines and movies was widely talked about and reported on by the FBI and the media. becoming the butt of many a joke and snicker. why? because the more you can tear down the person, the easier it is to convict them. Richard Jewell was a hero, and was doing his level best to save lives, and he got smeared and shredded.

And I’m not trying to draw an exact equivalence as Richard Jewell had no message, just his reputation. of just how the idea of tear down the man to destroy a message is effective and repugnant.

580 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:55:19am

re: #577 yasharki

Yes, I can. I can dismiss anyone who is coming to conclusions based on limited evidence, because it’s a deeply foolish thing to do.

581 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:58:14am

How To Wrap A Cat For Christmas

Youtube Video
582 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 9:59:07am

re: #579 bloodstar

Absolutely agreed and true. If people really worked on the assumption of innocence, it’d be great, but they don’t.

583 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:02:22am

Obdicut

Actually I’m rather attacking the Swedish justice system which has become famously biased against males.

Since I go to Sweden quite often (and no, I have never run into legal trouble there) I’ve heard quite horrific stories from friends and acquaintances.

Maybe the Swedish definition of “rape” is weaker than the U.S. one, but sexual offenses against women are so broadly defined that almost any consensual sex can turn into a “sexual offense” months later.

And women are no longer responsible for their accusation because they don’t make them. They “consult” with police and the authorities decide whether a criminal offense was committed or not.

Even if the man can prove his innocence later on and can prove that the allegations were wrong, the woman has nothing to worry about because she never filed charges. Using this “weapon” is completely “risk free” for Swedish women.

See a problem?

584 Gus  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:04:46am

re: #574 Gus 802

President Obama Speaks to the Troops
Afghanistan

White House ilve live stream.

1:00 PM EST or about 9 minutes from now.

CNN will also cover it live.

OK, it begins. Petraeus is on. Go team!

585 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:04:49am

re: #583 Mark Winter

Actually I’m rather attacking the Swedish justice system which has become famously biased against males.

This is the exact opposite of the truth. Did you not read the link that I posted? Do you think it’s a lie? What?

586 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:06:13am

re: #584 Gus 802

OK, it begins. Petraeus is on. Go team!

Nice intro, IMO!

587 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:06:44am

re: #583 Mark Winter

Do you have any support for your bizarre, illogical contention at all?

588 Gus  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:06:53am

re: #586 reine.de.tout

Nice intro, IMO!

Yep. Petraeus had very good words to say about Obama.

589 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:08:02am

re: #588 Gus 802

This conference is one of the first times it’s seemed like it might be fun to be president.

590 Gus  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:10:26am

re: #589 Obdicut

This conference is one of the first times it’s seemed like it might be fun to be president.

He Obdicut. Yes, it does.

591 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:11:20am

re: #583 Mark Winter

A woman goes to a jeweller’s to have her new diamond necklace assessed.

“These things are zircons, worth less than $10,” says the jewleller

“Help! Police!” cries the lady, “I’ve been raped!”

592 Gus  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:11:25am

re: #590 Gus 802

He Obdicut. Yes, it does.

Oops. “Hi” not “He”. Damn tea does not equal coffee.

593 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:11:59am

re: #582 Obdicut

Absolutely agreed and true. If people really worked on the assumption of innocence, it’d be great, but they don’t.

Badabing. You nailed it. That’s why even Assange should be give benefit of a doubt in these rape allegations. There’s a much bigger rape he’s committed, on a global scale, fact which is being overshadowed by this Swedish coed nonsense…

594 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:14:36am

re: #593 yasharki

Yes. He should be given the benefit of the doubt. Which I did.

What that does not entail is calling the women making the accusation ‘attention-whores’ and not giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Do you get that?

595 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:17:32am

Ron Paul stands up for Julian Assange

But in a Thursday interview with Fox Business, Paul said the idea of prosecuting Assange crosses the line.

“In a free society we’re supposed to know the truth,” Paul said. “In a society where truth becomes treason, then we’re in big trouble. And now, people who are revealing the truth are getting into trouble for it.”

“This whole notion that Assange, who’s an Australian, that we want to prosecute him for treason. I mean, aren’t they jumping to a wild conclusion?” he added. “This is media, isn’t it? I mean, why don’t we prosecute The New York Times or anybody that releases this?”

596 yasharki  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:18:26am

re: #594 Obdicut

Do you get that?

No, because it’s a conclusion which can be logically arrived at based on current evidence, regardless of weather you think it’s sufficient or not.

597 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:18:40am

re: #585 Obdicut

Obdicut, the reality in Sweden is a bit more complicated than that.
If you want to, I can elaborate a bit. Unfortunately that puts me into a territory I do not necessarily want to be since recent “rape” discussions in Sweden are focused on Muslim immigrants.

Swedish statistics show that actually they come in only second worldwide when it comes to rape convictions. The Muslim situation in Malmö and other cities has had an effect on statistics of reported rape exploited by Swedish right wing groups.

Swedish women are much less afraid to report sexual offenses. Muslim women are.

599 Gus  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:19:59am

re: #598 Killgore Trout

Jim Hoft attacks Obama for visiting troops in Afghanistan

Hahaha! What a dork. You know that was in the back of my mind. The “dumbest man on the internet” is first up to the wingnut plate.

600 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:20:46am

re: #587 Obdicut

Do you have any support for your bizarre, illogical contention at all?

Yes. The Swedish Law

601 Kragar  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:22:27am

re: #598 Killgore Trout

Jim Hoft attacks Obama for visiting troops in Afghanistan

What a dick.

602 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:23:17am

re: #597 Mark Winter

I have direct experience with Swedes and Sweden who say the exact opposite of you; that in general, women making allegations of sexual misconduct of any kind are brushed aside and their complaints not treated seriously, and the penalties for such misconduct are incredibly lax.

re: #600 Mark Winter

Cite it.

603 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:30:12am

re: #602 Obdicut

Obdicut, I’m willing to honestly and seriously discuss with you but not with a person who trollrates people when she doesn’t agree with what they say.

604 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:33:16am

re: #603 Mark Winter

How convienent.

I’m not ‘trollrating’ you. I don’t downding only those who are trolls. I’m not sure why you assume that’s the only use of it.

If my downdinging of you somehow removes your ability to honestly and seriously discuss this, so be it. Your willingness to condemn these women based on news reports is odious enough to me not to think missing out on your point of view on this is a huge loss.

605 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 10:42:33am

Downdinging isn’t reserved for instances of suspected trolling here. It also applies to strong disagreement.

606 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 11:03:38am

re: #604 Obdicut

First of all, I’m not condemning the two women. I have pointed out blatant contradictions in what they have said PUBLICLY after the alleged sexual offenses.

I’m putting forward what we KNOW because the prosecution has told the public and the two women have told the public.

1) Both women had consensual sex with Assange. Both never said that it was not consensual.
2) The first one throws a party for him AFTER the alleged offense (“broken condom”) had taken place. She raves about being with the “coolest people of the world” publicly, on Twitter. After the prosecution started she makes big efforts to remove these jubilant messages but Google Cache and backup systems are cruel.
3) After the two women learn from each other, they consult (the prosecution has the SMS they exchange). They find out that both had unprotected sex.
4) They go to the police, not with the intention of filing charges but to seek advice as to how they could legally enforce Assange to take a HIV test. Before they go they even discuss by SMS whether they should inform the Swedish tabloid Expressen of what happened. One of them has even published a guide about “How to take revenge on your boyfriend”.
5) The interviewing police officer refers the matter to the duty Public Prosecutor. The prosecutor issued an arrest order for rape. Minutes later, Assange is labeled as a “rapist” by the international media.
6) The arrest order is squashed by one of Sweden’s most senior prosecutors, Eva Finné because the women’s stories didn’t justify the need to open an investigation against Assange.
7) A top Stockholm lawyer, Mr Claes Borgström, a staunch feminist, who was appointed to protect the legal interests of the plaintiffs, files an appeal.
8) Assange wants to leave Sweden, asks if he is free to go, says he’s available for questioning. Prosecution says: No questioning, you are free to go.
9) No new facts have come to light but months later, just when the cables are published, the arrest warrant is issued again, now for “sexual offenses”.
10) Despite Assange’s offers to be questioned in England by Swedish prosecutors (his wherabouts are known by British authorities) or via videoconference, the Swedish ask Interpol to issue a Red Alert.

Those are the facts we know. Can we draw any conclusions on that?
Of course we don’t know everything but there will hardly be a case when we do. We could still come to the conclusion that something is rotten in Sweden.

And if you read the Swedish press, they are highly critical of that case.

There’s a much discussed scientific study out there called “Felaktigt dömda
Rapport från JK:s rättssäkerhetsprojekt” (“Wrongful Convictions”) discussing egregious examples of miscarriages of justice in Sweden. The authors come to the conclusion that the Swedish system of dealing with sexual offense cases is deeply flawed.

One problem the report showed as well is that the interpretation of what constitutes a “sexual offenses” varied from court to court in rather spectacular ways, hence innocent men were convicted and real perpetrators of sex crimes acquitted.

607 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 11:15:42am

re: #606 Mark Winter

Those are the facts we know. Can we draw any conclusions on that?

No.

608 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 11:19:00am

re: #459 Alouette

I’m here in the Big Apple for my grandson’s Bar Mitzvah

Mazel Tov! AND Happy Birthday!

609 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 11:24:20am

re: #607 Obdicut

Oh ok. No point in discussing this any further then.

610 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 11:29:39am

re: #609 Mark Winter

There was no point in discussing it in the first place. That was my point. Yet you, and others, really want to discuss how there’s all sorts of problems with the charges. And you were still absolutely, completely wrong when you intimated that the Swedish have a lose version of ‘rape’. The opposite is true.

611 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 11:41:41am

Oh ok, you know what is “true”.

This report says otherwise. Unfortunately it’s written in Swedish and costs 316 Swedish crowns

[Link: jk.bokorder.se…]

612 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 11:43:35am

re: #611 Mark Winter

Have you read the Amnesty International report?

613 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 11:50:32am

re: #612 Obdicut

Yes. But I have read more than just this Amnesty report on that matter.
I’m a scientist. I never rely on one source alone, and unfortunately many serious Swedish sources contradict the Amnesty report.

But you downding posts that quote such sources. That’s no way to have a discussion. So for my part this debate ends here.

614 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 11:55:00am

re: #578 wozzablog

I’d disagree about the wet tea towel since the water will overwhelm the ability to smother the fire - and cause it to go ballistic. Baking soda or a ABC fire extinguisher is the best defense against a grease fire.

Water is like an accelerant - it flash steams and spreads the flames. Mythbusters did a whole segment on grease fires and how much water is necessary to send flames 30 feet high. Surprisingly, it doesn’t take much.

615 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:00:39pm

re: #614 lawhawk

I’d disagree about the wet tea towel since the water will overwhelm the ability to smother the fire - and cause it to go ballistic. Baking soda or a ABC fire extinguisher is the best defense against a grease fire.

Water is like an accelerant - it flash steams and spreads the flames. Mythbusters did a whole segment on grease fires and how much water is necessary to send flames 30 feet high. Surprisingly, it doesn’t take much.

According to my neighbor, it took about a half gallon of water to engulf her entire kitchen in a fireball in a couple of seconds, starting with a small grease fire.

616 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:02:11pm

re: #613 Mark Winter

I’ve read more than the Amnesty International report as well.

Such as Regan, L. & Kelly, L. (2003) Rape: Still a Forgotten Issue.

There certainly is a problem with inconsistency in the prosecution of sexual assault in Sweden. That is absolutely true. However, that doesn’t mean that the overall atmosphere isn’t one where, in general, sexual assaults tend to be dismissed and cases like this [Link: www.thelocal.se…] crop up far too often.

617 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:06:42pm

re: #535 Mark Winter

Are you one of these Tom leykis guys?

618 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:07:24pm

re: #616 Obdicut

I’m not speaking to the situation with Assange, however:

It is very easy to allege rape, and very hard to prove. Whether it is proven or not, the allegation destroys lives, and careers.

I work at a criminal defense firm, and some of the cases we defend are rape cases. Of course, many of them are clearly guilty, but about half of the cases we defend end up being sour grapes. It’s sad that some women feel the need to use rape allegations as a weapon against men they don’t like, but it happens a LOT. It delegitimizes legitimate allegations over time, as the courts become more cynical regarding rape allegations, and causes real tangible hard to actual rape victims.

Once again, I have no idea about this specific case. I am speaking from experience at my work, with a sample size of about 20. this doesn’t count as data, I know.

619 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:07:57pm

re: #618 Fozzie Bear

*harm

620 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:13:21pm

re: #617 WindUpBird

Who?

621 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:13:38pm

re: #618 Fozzie Bear

It is very easy to allege rape, and very hard to prove. Whether it is proven or not, the allegation destroys lives, and careers.

True. And the penalty for false reports should be large. And I think the names of the accused should be shielded from the public just as the names of the victims are.

But overall, far, far, far, far, far more reports go unreported and unprosecuted than are falsely prosecuted.

622 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:14:12pm

re: #615 Fozzie Bear

She’s very lucky to be alive. Wow.

623 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:21:33pm

re: #621 Obdicut

True. And the penalty for false reports should be large. And I think the names of the accused should be shielded from the public just as the names of the victims are.

But overall, far, far, far, far, far more reports go unreported and unprosecuted than are falsely prosecuted.

Here’s the thing though. If you penalize false reports you are going to end up penalizing some actual rape victims for coming forward. It’s a tricky situation. I would support heavily penalizing false allegations that a provably false, i.e., the alleged assailant was in another country at the time, or the alleged victim bragged about framing someone, or whatever. Both of those examples are cases we have had at the office I work at, and the “victims” in these cases faced no penalty whatsoever. That’s a travesty, imo.

624 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:30:11pm

re: #623 Fozzie Bear

Yes, I agree that the standard for punishing a false report has to be very high, so as not to dissuade honest reports. But in cases where it’s proveable, at least as a civil judgement it should be a very, very high penalty.

625 Mark Winter  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 12:48:42pm

Unfortunately in our society accusing a public figure of rape or sexual molestation will destroy the life and career of that person, whether wrong or true.

Even if he can PROVE his innocence, his career is over.

But then, that’s just collateral damage.

626 srjh  Fri, Dec 3, 2010 6:18:46pm

There’s something very, very fishy about the whole situation here. If you think everything is above board, I’ve got real estate on the moon I’d like to sell you.

Regardless of your views of Assange and Wikileaks (mine are that he’s an egomaniac motivated by grudges, and that they have been a force for both good and bad over the years, leaning more towards the latter lately as they focus on volume rather than the public interest), an international manhunt for “rape” charges when even the prosecutors agree that the sex was consensual shouldn’t really sit too well with anyone. It’s a pretty obvious pretext for getting Assange for something, which won’t even work for taking down Wikileaks, let alone any service that would spring up in its absence.


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