Did Reuters Crop a Photo to Remove a Peace Activist’s Weapon?

Media • Views: 30,843

A Turkish newpaper has released photos taken by the “peace activists” aboard the Mavi Marmara, showing them attempting to take injured Israeli soldiers hostage.

Here’s one of the pictures; notice the knife held by a “peace activist” in the lower right corner.

And here’s the same photo as released by Reuters earlier today.

That’s a very interesting way to crop the photo. Most people would consider that knife an important part of the context. There was a huge controversy over whether the activists were armed. Cropping out a knife, in a picture showing a soldier who’s apparently been stabbed, seems like a very odd editorial decision.

Unless someone was trying to hide it.

And this would not be the first time that Reuters has been caught altering photos for propaganda purposes.

(Hat tip: KT.)

UPDATE at 6/6/10 10:30:02 am:

The Associated Press published the picture too — without cropping it: The Associated Press: Turkish group releases photos of Israeli soldiers.

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875 comments

1 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:08:38am

I really feel bad for the marine. I can not help buy wonder if the man with the knife is the guy who attacked him. Though I would guess he took a hit td the head to go down. Is that another injury near his belt line?

2 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:16:56am

Are we sure someone didn't photshop the knife in?
// need I?

3 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:17:09am
Did Reuters Crop a Photo to Remove a Peace Activist's Weapon?


Yes. I don't think there's much doubt about it.

4 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:17:11am

looks like a military style fighting knife to me...a serrated spine meant to rip flesh, not to filet a trout

5 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:17:37am

Hey now, they're not trying to hide the knife, they're trying to focus in on the Marine so that we can see that they hardly injured him at all. For all we know, he fell off the rope and these helpful activists are helping him down below for medical attention. Who are you going to believe, these people who are trying to help the starving people of Gaza or the Israeli propaganda?

///

God, that one actually hurt my head. I could actually feel brain cells dying.

6 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:17:57am
7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:18:42am

re: #1 Rightwingconspirator

Is that another injury near his belt line?

You mean his "thong line"?

8 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:19:04am

re: #4 albusteve

looks like a military style fighting knife to me...a serrated spine meant to rip flesh, not to filet a trout

Reminds me of Dickhead's dive knife that I now have.

9 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:20:05am

re: #6 MandyManners

Was it one of the not-yet-dead terrorists holding the knife?

I scrolled through some of the images of the casualties to see if I could identify them as the hostage takers. I haven't found any matches yet.

10 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:20:17am

re: #1 Rightwingconspirator

I really feel bad for the marine. I can not help buy wonder if the man with the knife is the guy who attacked him. Though I would guess he took a hit td the head to go down. Is that another injury near his belt line?

Looks like a few drops of blood but, what soaked the top of his undies?

11 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:20:35am

What's with these Terror Apologists® and their Fauxtography fetish?

12 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:21:08am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I scrolled through some of the images of the casualties to see if I could identify them as the hostage takers. I haven't found any matches yet.

I don't know how much trust to put in the names, considering the source.

Has anyone released a list of the hostage takers?

13 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:21:36am

re: #10 MandyManners

Looks like a few drops of blood but, what soaked the top of his undies?

Maybe the blood of some dead "peace activist".

14 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:21:37am

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That's a jock strap. Commandos traditionally don't wear underwear but they still have to secure the twig and berries.

15 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:21:41am

re: #11 Gang of One

What's with these Terror Apologists® and their Fauxtography fetish?

deceitful assholes shaping opinion....I hate the MSM with a passion
spit

16 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:21:44am

re: #11 Gang of One

What's with these Terror Apologists® and their Fauxtography fetish?

Lovers of lies!

17 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:22:07am

re: #13 Gang of One

Maybe the blood of some dead "peace activist".

Looks like his own.

18 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:22:10am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

That's a jock strap. Commandos traditionally don't wear underwear but they still have to secure the twig and berries.

That's why it's called "going commando"

19 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:23:06am

re: #11 Gang of One

What's with these Terror Apologists® and their Fauxtography fetish?

It's like the old media trickery of selective editing of interview tapes or of taking quotes out of context to make them sound totally different from what was intended. Show the uncropped photo, people see an Israeli Marine who's in real danger and begin to question the "official" story of the anti-Israel crowd. Show the cropped photo and it looks like the injuries aren't that severe and the interpretation could simply be that he was hit with something and is dazed.

20 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:23:36am

re: #17 MandyManners

Looks like his own.

Most likely. Any word on this soldier? Is he OK?

21 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:24:20am

re: #18 Alouette

That's why it's called "going commando"

Huh. I tbought that meant utterly nekkid under the clothes.

Learn something new every day.

22 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:24:40am

re: #19 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's like the old media trickery of selective editing of interview tapes or of taking quotes out of context to make them sound totally different from what was intended. Show the uncropped photo, people see an Israeli Marine who's in real danger and begin to question the "official" story of the anti-Israel crowd. Show the cropped photo and it looks like the injuries aren't that severe and the interpretation could simply be that he was hit with something and is dazed.

Perhaps this time the truth was not caught sleeping while the lies where already at the airport.

23 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:24:47am

re: #20 Gang of One

Most likely. Any word on this soldier? Is he OK?

I have no idea. To my knowledge, no Israelis were killed.

24 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:25:27am

re: #14 Killgore Trout


OH, let me have my fun...

25 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:25:41am

re: #23 MandyManners

I have no idea. To my knowledge, no Israelis were killed.

That there is a major relief.

26 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:25:56am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

I don't know what commandos wear, but unfortunately thong and tight undies are big sellers in Israel. Breezy-style boxers are impossible to find.

27 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:26:14am
Did Reuters Crop a Photo to Remove a Peace Activist's Weapon?

Is the Pope Catholic? Does a frog bump its butt when it jumps? Are these rhetorical questions?

28 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:26:34am

re: #19 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's like the old media trickery of selective editing of interview tapes or of taking quotes out of context to make them sound totally different from what was intended. Show the uncropped photo, people see an Israeli Marine who's in real danger and begin to question the "official" story of the anti-Israel crowd. Show the cropped photo and it looks like the injuries aren't that severe and the interpretation could simply be that he was hit with something and is dazed.

And that he is surrounded by caring, peaceful people who are trying to comfort him.

29 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:27:36am

re: #27 brownbagj

Your avatar ... eggsellent.
/did you get Mandy's permission?

30 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:27:41am

re: #25 Gang of One

That there is a major relief.

One dead American, a 19-year-old man whose parents are from Turkey.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:28:10am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

That's a jock strap. Commandos traditionally don't wear underwear but they still have to secure the twig and berries.

Dare I ask WHY commandos traditionally don't wear underpants?

32 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:28:24am

re: #22 Gang of One

Perhaps this time the truth was not caught sleeping while the lies where already at the airport.

If it'd been published and caught within the first 48, it would've had real weight. Now? The media will just gloss over it and/or print the "correction" on page A14 and call it a day. The damage has already been done, controlling it is a moot point.

33 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:28:32am

re: #26 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

I don't know what commandos wear, but unfortunately thong and tight undies are big sellers in Israel. Breezy-style boxers are impossible to find.

Google, dude. Google.

34 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:28:40am

re: #30 MandyManners

One dead American, a 19-year-old man whose parents are from Turkey.

I read about that. Collateral damage or was he an "activist"?

35 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:28:45am

re: #29 Gang of One

Found it on the web somewhere. I used it in honor of Mandy helping me earlier.

36 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:29:02am

re: #29 Gang of One

Your avatar ... eggsellent.
/did you get Mandy's permission?

No but, he did it in my honor.

37 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:29:04am

re: #28 MandyManners

And that he is surrounded by caring, peaceful people who are trying to comfort him.

But of course! Haven't you heard about the wonderful Religion of Peace?

/

38 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:29:36am

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

Dare I ask WHY commandos traditionally don't wear underpants?

Can you imagine getting a crack-attack in the midst of all that action?

39 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:30:24am

re: #34 Gang of One

I read about that. Collateral damage or was he an "activist"?

Considering that he was hanging out with the 50 terrorists, I'd say the latter.

40 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:30:39am

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

Dare I ask WHY commandos traditionally don't wear underpants?

Well, the terrorists use everything at their disposal, so I would assume wedgies would be used as well if not for "commando" attire.

41 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:30:55am

re: #37 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

But of course! Haven't you heard about the wonderful Religion of Peace?

/

My Ass.

42 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:31:42am

re: #38 MandyManners

Can you imagine getting a crack-attack in the midst of all that action?

What, pray tell is a 'crack-attack'? That like the Aztec Quickstep?

43 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:32:59am

re: #39 MandyManners

Considering that he was hanging out with the 50 terrorists, I'd say the latter.

Took 3 or 4 in the head they say. Another very good indication.

44 philosophus invidius  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:33:54am

U.S. Veteran was apparently one of the attackers:

US war veteran confronted Israelis on Gaza ship

45 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:33:56am

On a side note, I just posted a link to upcoming drama: A group of Israeli university students are organizing a counter-flotilla to Turkey to bring to light the historic suffering of the Armenians and Kurds.

Most comments on that site think it's a great idea, but some are concerned it could end badly.

46 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:34:16am

re: #42 Gang of One

What, pray tell is a 'crack-attack'? That like the Aztec Quickstep?

It's when your knickers get in a...uh...vertical twist.

47 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:34:48am

re: #43 Rightwingconspirator

Took 3 or 4 in the head they say. Another very good indication.

And, one to the chest.

48 CDRealist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:35:58am

I dunno. From an editor's point of view, you want to crop to the subject, which is the guy, a smidgen below his knee and above his elbow. The guy's face stands out more in the second photo. The rest is bland, but he is dynamic. It's a better picture for a newspaper.

And the photo editor may not even have known it was a knife. When I first saw it, I thought it was a gun barrel hanging down. When I saw the comments, I looked again, and yes, it's a knife. In general, convenience or stupidity are more likely reasons for error than bad faith, even in a press agency.

49 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:36:12am

re: #44 philosophus invidius

U.S. Veteran was apparently one of the attackers:

US war veteran confronted Israelis on Gaza ship

Article says he was in Desert Storm, 1991, a marine. Why would a Marine go rogue that way? I guess I can't picture Jew-haters in my beloved Corp :>(

50 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:36:34am

re: #46 MandyManners

It's when your knickers get in a...uh...vertical twist.

Oh.

51 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:37:20am

re: #48 CDRealist

I think a photo editor would know what a knife in a picture looks like. It's his job.

52 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:37:29am

re: #44 philosophus invidius

U.S. Veteran was apparently one of the attackers:

US war veteran confronted Israelis on Gaza ship

So was Joe Meadors who was the signalman on the USS Liberty.

53 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:37:57am

re: #45 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

On a side note, I just posted a link to upcoming drama: A group of Israeli university students are organizing a counter-flotilla to Turkey to bring to light the historic suffering of the Armenians and Kurds.

Most comments on that site think it's a great idea, but some are concerned it could end badly.

Ummm...better to stay in school and study, kids.

54 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:38:09am

re: #48 CDRealist

I dunno. From an editor's point of view, you want to crop to the subject, which is the guy, a smidgen below his knee and above his elbow. The guy's face stands out more in the second photo. The rest is bland, but he is dynamic. It's a better picture for a newspaper.

And the photo editor may not even have known it was a knife. When I first saw it, I thought it was a gun barrel hanging down. When I saw the comments, I looked again, and yes, it's a knife. In general, convenience or stupidity are more likely reasons for error than bad faith, even in a press agency.

There's absolutely no way you could be editing such a photo for publication and miss the knife. It's simply not possible.

55 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:38:26am

re: #48 CDRealist

I dunno. From an editor's point of view, you want to crop to the subject, which is the guy, a smidgen below his knee and above his elbow. The guy's face stands out more in the second photo. The rest is bland, but he is dynamic. It's a better picture for a newspaper.

And the photo editor may not even have known it was a knife. When I first saw it, I thought it was a gun barrel hanging down. When I saw the comments, I looked again, and yes, it's a knife. In general, convenience or stupidity are more likely reasons for error than bad faith, even in a press agency.

Is that you, Cognito?

56 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:38:40am

re: #44 philosophus invidius

U.S. Veteran was apparently one of the attackers:

US war veteran confronted Israelis on Gaza ship

and this....

O’Keefe, a veteran from the 1991 Gulf War, is known also as an organiser of a “human shield” campaign ahead of the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.


What an asshole.

57 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:38:45am

Charles,

The images seem broken to me on your True/Slant article. s it just me?

58 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:38:48am

re: #49 Gang of One

Article says he was in Desert Storm, 1991, a marine. Why would a Marine go rogue that way? I guess I can't picture Jew-haters in my beloved Corp :>(

They're everywhere.

59 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:38:52am

re: #48 CDRealist

Unless there is a pattern to suggest otherwise.

60 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:39:11am

re: #48 CDRealist

In general, convenience or stupidity are more likely reasons for error than bad faith, even in a press agency.

Not buying it. That was deliberately removed, to sway opinion.

61 bloodnok  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:39:16am

re: #48 CDRealist

I dunno. From an editor's point of view, you want to crop to the subject, which is the guy, a smidgen below his knee and above his elbow. The guy's face stands out more in the second photo. The rest is bland, but he is dynamic. It's a better picture for a newspaper.

And the photo editor may not even have known it was a knife. When I first saw it, I thought it was a gun barrel hanging down. When I saw the comments, I looked again, and yes, it's a knife. In general, convenience or stupidity are more likely reasons for error than bad faith, even in a press agency.

A man holding a knife is bland?

Good to see the "Cognito Defense" is alive and well.

62 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:40:12am

re: #54 Charles

There's absolutely no way you could be editing such a photo for publication and miss the knife. It's simply not possible.

Particularly considering that they got his shoe and the top of his finger in the second picture.

63 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:40:30am

re: #2 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Are we sure someone didn't photshop the knife in?
// need I?

I don't think so... but the picture did bring to mind that the person, is not correctly holding that knife in a "state of rest," especially if he would suddenly need to use it. Terrible form.

64 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:40:34am

re: #61 bloodnok

A man holding a knife is bland?

Good to see the "Cognito Defense" is alive and well.

GMTA!

Hey, you! How are you? Long time, no see.

65 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:40:57am

re: #61 bloodnok

A man holding a knife is bland?

Good to see the "Cognito Defense" is alive and well.

Whoa!
Howdy, stranger, good to "see" you.

66 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:41:13am

re: #54 Charles

There's absolutely no way you could be editing such a photo for publication and miss the knife. It's simply not possible.

It's also a very important part of the story. With the knife in the picture it's clear that he's being attacked. With the knife gone they could be giving him medical attention.
I really can't see a reasonable reason to take the weapon out of the picture, especially since the weapons have been such a big part of the story.

67 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:41:18am

re: #58 MandyManners

They're everywhere.

Yeah, I know. It really is depressing if not down right revolting.
/siiiiiiiiiiiiggggggghhhhhh ...

68 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:41:34am

re: #48 CDRealist

I dunno. From an editor's point of view, you want to crop to the subject, which is the guy, a smidgen below his knee and above his elbow. The guy's face stands out more in the second photo. The rest is bland, but he is dynamic. It's a better picture for a newspaper.

And the photo editor may not even have known it was a knife. When I first saw it, I thought it was a gun barrel hanging down. When I saw the comments, I looked again, and yes, it's a knife. In general, convenience or stupidity are more likely reasons for error than bad faith, even in a press agency.

Hey, looks like Otingoc is back!

69 richard12  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:42:11am

Did Ergodan and Turkish intelligence purposely mislead Israeli intelligence by providng personall guarantees and then participate in preparing the terrorists for the flotilla?

A comment on an article in Hebrew is claming that the reason Israel didn't expect what happend was that Erdogan and Turkish intelligence (with which Israel has for years had very intimate contacts), themselves provided guarantees stating that only peace activists were on board and no violence was expected. Is it believable? Maybe or maybe not, but if its true it's pretty significant.

This link is a translation of this comment and some very minor analysis.

70 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:42:34am

re: #57 JasonA

Charles,

The images seem broken to me on your True/Slant article. s it just me?

The pics work for me. I can't wait to see the comments over there.

71 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:43:08am

re: #57 JasonA

Charles,

The images seem broken to me on your True/Slant article. s it just me?

Fixed now.

And notice that someone popped up immediately to accuse me of being in the pay of AIPAC.

72 bloodnok  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:43:13am

re: #64 MandyManners

re: #65 reine.de.tout

Hi back!

73 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:43:19am

re: #70 Killgore Trout

The pics work for me. I can't wait to see the comments over there.

It's already begun.

74 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:43:32am

re: #67 Gang of One

Yeah, I know. It really is depressing if not down right revolting.
/siiiggghhh ...

Chin up.

75 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:43:36am

re: #49 Gang of One

Article says he was in Desert Storm, 1991, a marine. Why would a Marine go rogue that way? I guess I can't picture Jew-haters in my beloved Corp :>(

There's quite a lot of trouble with Aryan nation guys and other white supremacists in the Armed Services these days.

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

76 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:43:45am

re: #71 Charles

You aren't?

//

77 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:44:00am

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Just reloaded and they're working for me now.

And the first comment already has the word "apartheid" in it...

78 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:45:39am

re: #69 richard12

Did Ergodan and Turkish intelligence purposely mislead Israeli intelligence by providng personall guarantees and then participate in preparing the terrorists for the flotilla?

A comment on an article in Hebrew is claming that the reason Israel didn't expect what happend was that Erdogan and Turkish intelligence (with which Israel has for years had very intimate contacts), themselves provided guarantees stating that only peace activists were on board and no violence was expected. Is it believable? Maybe or maybe not, but if its true it's pretty significant.

This link is a translation of this comment and some very minor analysis.

Eh, seems too unlikely. I mean, if Israel had evidence to prove this, they'd have done so within hours of the whole intercept goin' pear shaped. They wouldn't simply sit back and allow Turkey to condemn them for an incident that they either set-up or provided disinformation for.

79 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:46:17am

re: #73 reine.de.tout

It's already begun.

Heh.

80 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:46:41am

re: #69 richard12

Link?

81 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:46:53am

re: #48 CDRealist

How is a weapon not part of the subject? That's the thing. Given the controversy at hand, it's just otherwise inexplicable.

82 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:47:48am

re: #69 richard12

I got an e-mail with that assertion this morning, but without any backing proof it's just an interesting story.

83 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:48:52am

re: #75 Obdicut

There's quite a lot of trouble with Aryan nation guys and other white supremacists in the Armed Services these days.

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Only 12:50 here in the NYC area, and I want to start drinking.

84 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:48:52am

The picture including the knife is much more dramatic. I cannot think of an innocent reason to crop it. If they wanted to focus more on the guy's face, they'd have cropped it off to the side.

85 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:49:31am

Hey, speakin' of AIPAC, where's my monthly International Zionist Conspiracy check?

86 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:50:21am

re: #83 Gang of One

Only 12:50 here in the NYC area, and I want to start drinking.

Make is something cold. The humidity is killing me yet, but I'm not liking it. Need a nice thunderstorm to roll in here.

87 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:50:44am

Hi lizards! This is my first attempt at posting from my blackberry.

88 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:50:48am

re: #86 JasonA

Make is something cold. The humidity isn't killing me yet, but I'm not liking it. Need a nice thunderstorm to roll in here.

pimf

89 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:51:14am

re: #87 NJDhockeyfan

Hi lizards! This is my first attempt at posting from my blackberry.

You have achieved liftoff.

90 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:51:23am

re: #87 NJDhockeyfan

Hi lizards! This is my first attempt at posting from my blackberry.

Consider it successful, I think.

I can't get my blackberry to work with LGF, but it's an ancient, obsolete model.

91 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:51:27am

re: #83 Gang of One

Only 12:50 here in the NYC area, and I want to start drinking.

It's 5:00 somwhere!

92 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:51:30am

re: #71 Charles

Fixed now.

And notice that someone popped up immediately to accuse me of being in the pay of AIPAC.

How does one get that gig?

93 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:51:44am

Charles, do you still track visits from Reuters? Something tells me they're about to spike.

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:51:45am

re: #75 Obdicut

There's quite a lot of trouble with Aryan nation guys and other white supremacists in the Armed Services these days.

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

These guys are probably just regular lefties, though. Aryan Nation et al has no connections to the Free Gaza team that I'm aware of.

/Freaking haters keep moving around and confusing me!

95 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:51:46am

re: #85 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Hey, speakin' of AIPAC, where's my monthly International Zionist Conspiracy check?

It's in the mail.

96 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:52:07am

re: #87 NJDhockeyfan

Hi lizards! This is my first attempt at posting from my blackberry.

Nope, didn't see your post.
///

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:52:30am

re: #85 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Hey, speakin' of AIPAC, where's my monthly International Zionist Conspiracy check?

Nobody gets checks until we've sold a hundred cookbooks!

98 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:52:36am

re: #86 JasonA

Make is something cold. The humidity is killing me yet, but I'm not liking it. Need a nice thunderstorm to roll in here.

When I got up before sunrise, the temperature was just one point higher than the dew point.

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:53:05am

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

How does one get that gig?

They should hire my husband.

100 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:53:21am

re: #86 JasonA

Make is something cold. The humidity is killing me yet, but I'm not liking it. Need a nice thunderstorm to roll in here.

Probably Sapphire martinis. I heard rain forecast, but the universe always has other plans.

101 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:53:45am

re: #98 MandyManners

When I got up before sunrise, the temperature was just one point higher than the dew point.

Before sunrise? Christ, I haven't even been awake long enough for my posts to make sense...

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:53:52am

All right. I'm off to Israel In The Gardens.

See you all later.

103 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:53:54am

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

Aryan Nation and other white supremacists are really good at infiltrating groups, though. Most of them are meatheads, but the smart ones are really damn dangerous. They know the right things to say, and the Free Gaza people don't strike me as the kind to question those who want to come along all that well.

By the way, this is speculation, but the amount of blood on his palm to me is consistent with grabbing a knife blade defensively.

It could also, of course, be putting his hand over a wound and getting blood on it, too.

104 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:54:13am

re: #73 reine.de.tout

Did you get my email.

105 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:54:23am

re: #101 JasonA

Before sunrise? Christ, I haven't even been awake long enough for my posts to make sense...

I usually get up then.

106 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:55:05am

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

All right. I'm off to Israel In The Gardens.

See you all later.

Have fun!

107 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:55:43am

Cool...looks like it worked.

I found the picture including the knife this morning. KT posted the cropped picture within minutes. Not surprising it's Reuters again. Nothing gets past LGF.

108 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:55:44am

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

All right. I'm off to Israel In The Gardens.

See you all later.

Is that an amusement park?

109 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:56:33am

re: #91 MandyManners

It's 5:00 somwhere!

In Monrovia!
/in bed!!

110 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:58:06am

This one really struck a nerve at TrueSlant. They're spinning furiously over there.

111 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:58:09am

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

Nobody gets checks until we've sold a hundred cookbooks!

Available right here!

112 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:59:02am

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

Did you get my email.

yes, got one yesterday or the day before.
Is that the one you're talking about?

113 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:59:17am

re: #85 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Hey, speakin' of AIPAC, where's my monthly International Zionist Conspiracy check?

No offense to you and I know you mean it as a joke, but I want to express how much I hate this joke. It's not a joke. There are people who believe this is true, as ridiculous as it sounds. Case in point is that comment.

114 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:00:09am

re: #108 Walter L. Newton

An evil Jewish park designed to take over the world.

115 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:00:24am

//

116 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:00:42am

re: #48 CDRealist

I dunno. From an editor's point of view, you want to crop to the subject, which is the guy, a smidgen below his knee and above his elbow. The guy's face stands out more in the second photo. The rest is bland, but he is dynamic. It's a better picture for a newspaper.

And the photo editor may not even have known it was a knife. When I first saw it, I thought it was a gun barrel hanging down. When I saw the comments, I looked again, and yes, it's a knife. In general, convenience or stupidity are more likely reasons for error than bad faith, even in a press agency.

If the photo editor thought it was a fucking gun barrel, that would make the cropping even more suspicious, wouldn't you say?

And the soldier is lying there with a bleeding wound to his groin. Where do you think that wound came from? A knife, perhaps?

And the cropping was done so the knife is just barely cut out of the picture. If the editor wanted a really dramatic shot, he would have cropped it in nearly the same way, but included the knife, to emphasize the potential connection between it and the wound.

Not doing so is about the best prima facie evidence of bad faith and an agenda that you could want, short of a statement by the editor.

117 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:01:08am

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

This is the scariest bit from the SPLC's report, to me:


A third CID report, regarding a 2007 investigation, notes the termination of an investigation of a soldier at Fort Richardson, Alaska, who was reportedly the leader and chief recruiter for the Alaska Front, a white supremacist group. According to the report, the investigation was halted because the solider was "mobilized to Camp Shelby, MS in preparation for deployment to Iraq."
118 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:01:28am

re: #90 Obdicut

Consider it successful, I think.

I can't get my blackberry to work with LGF, but it's an ancient, obsolete model.

Download BOLT. I couldn't read LGF till I put it on my phone.

119 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:01:59am

re: #113 marjoriemoon

No offense to you and I know you mean it as a joke, but I want to express how much I hate this joke. It's not a joke. There are people who believe this is true, as ridiculous as it sounds. Case in point is that comment.

Tim: Jerry, it's our sense of humor that sustained us as a people for 3000 years.

Jerry: 5000.

Tim: 5000, even better. Okay, Chrissie. Give me a schtickle of flouride.

120 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:02:24am

re: #49 Gang of One

Article says he was in Desert Storm, 1991, a marine. Why would a Marine go rogue that way? I guess I can't picture Jew-haters in my beloved Corp :>(

Corp? Are you for real, or do they not teach Marines how to spell Corps these days?

121 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:02:42am

re: #113 marjoriemoon

No offense to you and I know you mean it as a joke, but I want to express how much I hate this joke. It's not a joke. There are people who believe this is true, as ridiculous as it sounds. Case in point is that comment.

Fair enough. I always saw it as a joke because of loonies like that, a way of flaunting in their faces their own ignorance. Morons like that will never be convinced to their satisfaction, so best to marginalize them as much as possible.

122 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:03:00am

re: #118 NJDhockeyfan

Download BOLT. I couldn't read LGF till I put it on my phone.

Thanks!

123 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:03:02am

re: #110 Charles

This one really struck a nerve at TrueSlant. They're spinning furiously over there.

I love it when you turn the lights on and make the roaches scurry!

124 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:03:50am

re: #120 Cato the Elder

Corp? Are you for real, or do they not teach Marines how to spell Corps these days?

So, what's a mis-spelling here or there? It's not like Gang is hanging out with IHH thugs.

125 Silvergirl  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:04:47am

D-Day sixty-six years ago today.

Here is the Reagan speech at the 40th anniversary. Thirteen minutes.

126 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:05:03am

Ot-

A shout out...

I'm at the end stretch of a 7 day work schedule. Because of the Memorial Day holiday, employees wanting to use some vacation days, seniority, and so on... I just finish (and still have two more days), a 43 hour week, since as low man I get to help "fill" those hours off. Normally my week is 20-23 hours, sometime with an extra 6-8 if someone has a last minute sick day or last minute need to be off.

A shout out to those people who work in grocery retail a full 40 hours a week, for years and years. It's not that easy. Granted, it's not hard-handed physical labor, but it's physical enough and never stops. There is not much down time during a shift, and there is a lot to do.

And, I have discovered that the net profit margin for a large supermarket store like I work at is only 1 to 1 1/2 percent full and clear profit per dollar.

That's a shit load of putting in time, money and hours to turn over pennies on the dollar. It's a quantity business, and I can see why different grocery/retail chains are constantly trying to come up with new enticements to offer customers... bottom line depends on every warm body that comes in the door.

Next week we are putting in a Day Surgery center to try to compete with Walmart.

127 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:05:22am

re: #113 marjoriemoon

No offense to you and I know you mean it as a joke, but I want to express how much I hate this joke. It's not a joke. There are people who believe this is true, as ridiculous as it sounds. Case in point is that comment.

Marjorie, your point is taken, but the Lizard community long ago began making a joke of this precisely to highlight the absurdity of the claim.

128 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:05:31am

re: #112 reine.de.tout

yes, got one yesterday or the day before.
Is that the one you're talking about?

Yes... one week delay, I will get to Post Office this week.

129 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:06:13am

re: #120 Cato the Elder

Corp? Are you for real, or do they not teach Marines how to spell Corps these days?

You are correct, Sir. I was not paying attention.

130 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:06:33am

re: #119 abaleh

Tim: Jerry, it's our sense of humor that sustained us as a people for 3000 years.

Jerry: 5000.

Tim: 5000, even better. Okay, Chrissie. Give me a schtickle of flouride.

I have a great sense of self-deprecating humor, but this one I don't find in the least bit funny. It may be just me, of course.

131 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:06:47am

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

Next week we are putting in a Day Surgery center to try to compete with Walmart.

Huh? You're joking, right?

132 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:07:40am

re: #129 Gang of One

You are correct, Sir. I was not paying attention.

I was just makin' fun because I believe a certain politician recently made a similar mistake and got roasted for it.

Carry on, Marine!

133 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:08:35am

re: #130 marjoriemoon

I have a great sense of self-deprecating humor, but this one I don't find in the least bit funny. It may be just me, of course.

I understand. I wasn't trying to belittle your statement. I just love that episode.

134 Silvergirl  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:09:44am

re: #120 Cato the Elder

Corp? Are you for real, or do they not teach Marines how to spell Corps these days?

Now go forth and teach President Obama how to pronounce Corpsman.

135 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:09:55am

re: #133 abaleh

Jerry: Oh good. Anyway, I wanted to talk to you about Dr. Whatley. I have a suspicion that he's converted to Judaism just for the jokes.

Father: And this offends you as a Jewish person.

Jerry: No, it offends me as a comedian.

136 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:09:58am

re: #132 Cato the Elder

I was just makin' fun because I believe a certain politician recently made a similar mistake and got roasted for it.

Carry on, Marine!

Which one?

137 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:10:09am

re: #131 MandyManners

Huh? You're joking, right?

Yes... that last part was sarcasm. But if I see any retail store doing that... my lawyers will be wanting to talk to them... it's my idea.

I also suggested that we show short 5 minute videos on the EBT credit card terminals. That's my idea too!

I also suggested that we could personalize the receipts, since we collect info from their shopping card, have the receipts print out sports scores or other short headlines. My idea too!

I'm just full of ideas.

138 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:10:42am

re: #134 Silvergirl

Now go forth and teach President Obama how to pronounce Corpsman.

He pronounced the "s"?

139 Bear  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:11:03am

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

I had heard about the profit being very low, around the 1-2 percent range.
Lot of work for that.

140 Silvergirl  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:11:22am

re: #138 MandyManners

He pronounced the "s"?

"Corpse man."

141 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:11:32am

re: #133 abaleh

I understand. I wasn't trying to belittle your statement. I just love that episode.

It was a great one. He converted just for the jokes. When Jerry complains to the priest and the priest says, "So you're offended because you're a Jew?" Jerry responds, "I'm offended because I'm a comedian!"

142 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:11:42am

re: #137 Walter L. Newton

How about telling them to not rearrange things all the time?

143 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:12:07am

re: #138 MandyManners

He pronounced the "s"?

And the "p".

Dead giveaway for a seekrit moooslim.

144 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:12:10am

re: #132 Cato the Elder

I was just makin' fun because I believe a certain politician recently made a similar mistake and got roasted for it.

Carry on, Marine!

I got ya, Cato. And for the record, I am not a Marine, but I have such a high level of respect for them. Some of my best and favorite students have joined the Corps right after graduation, and the phrase, "my beloved Corps" comes from Gunny Hartman, the DI from Kubrick's "Full Metal Jacket". Trust you will not think any less of me ...

145 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:12:12am

re: #140 Silvergirl

"Corpse man."

But, Biden said BHO is smarter than us.

146 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:12:43am

Gotta' go burn some bacon.

147 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:12:48am

re: #144 Gang of One

I got ya, Cato. And for the record, I am not a Marine, but I have such a high level of respect for them. Some of my best and favorite students have joined the Corps right after graduation, and the phrase, "my beloved Corps" comes from Gunny Hartman, the DI from Kubrick's "Full Metal Jacket". Trust you will not think any less of me ...

Never in life.

148 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:13:01am

re: #138 MandyManners

He pronounced the "s"?

And the "p"

149 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:14:01am

re: #139 Bear

I had heard about the profit being very low, around the 1-2 percent range.
Lot of work for that.

Yep... that's it... at least in the big chain grocery business. I work for Kroger, in one of their 28 branded business', they have over 300,000 employees, and that's the average profit margin according to my store manager... 1 to 1 1/2 percent on the dollar. Our store is 24/7, on a major tourist highway through the Rocky Mountains and yearly profit is only about 2 million.

150 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:14:08am

re: #141 marjoriemoon

exactly.

Tim: Father Curtis told me about your little joke.

Jerry: What about all your Jewish jokes?

Tim: I'm Jewish, you're not a dentist. You have no idea what my people have been through.

Jerry: The Jews?

Tim: No, the dentists. You know, we have the highest suicide rate of any profession?

Jerry: Is that why it's so hard to get an appointment?

151 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:14:48am

You can tell there were real peace activists on that boat, though. Why, two of the onlookers are wearing peace sandals, and peacefully looking on without intervening to help the wounded soldier.

Sure hope Israel doesn't scold them harshly or anything.

152 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:15:05am

re: #150 abaleh

exactly.

Tim: Father Curtis told me about your little joke.

Jerry: What about all your Jewish jokes?

Tim: I'm Jewish, you're not a dentist. You have no idea what my people have been through.

Jerry: The Jews?

Tim: No, the dentists. You know, we have the highest suicide rate of any profession?

Jerry: Is that why it's so hard to get an appointment?

You're just an anti-dentite bastard!

153 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:16:31am

re: #143 Cato the Elder

And the "p".

Dead giveaway for a seekrit moooslim.

It also proves he's from another country.

//

154 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:17:12am

re: #152 marjoriemoon

Kramer to Jerry: You're a RAGING ANTI-DENTITE!

155 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:18:36am

AP publishes the complete picture

In this Monday, May 31, 2010, photo taken by an unidentified person aboard the ship Mavi Marmara, an Israeli soldier is surrounded by people aboard the Turkish-flagged vessel. The photo was released by the Turkish activist group IHH, which is outlawed in Israel. According to IHH, the Israeli soldiers were hurt while storming the ship in confrontations with activists aboard, and were later returned to other Israeli troops who boarded the ship. Israel's military said the series of images "shows that our boarding party in fact did face deadly violence from the hardcore Islamist activists on the boat from the fundamentalist IHH movement." (AP Photo/IHH)

156 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:19:51am

OT: 90°F outside. Those Sapphire martoonies are calling me ...

157 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:20:17am

One more...I just cannot help myself...

Jerry: Hi, Mr. Abbott.

Mr. Abbott: That's Dr. Abbott, D.D.S. Tim Whatley was one of my students. And if this wasn't my son's wedding day, I'd knock your teeth out you anti-dentite bastard.

158 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:21:28am

This is why Reuters wanted to alter the picture....


Turkish group releases photos of Israeli soldiers

Osman Atalay, a senior IHH official, said the soldiers were in the first group of commandos that boarded the ship. He said the images show activists "intervening" or "tending" to the injured soldiers.

Predictable.

159 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:21:31am

re: #156 Gang of One

OT: 90°F outside. Those Sapphire martoonies are calling me ...



Sign here.

XD

160 researchok  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:22:00am

The photo was deliberately edited to eliminate the knife.

If if the picture 'didn't fit' it would have been simply resized- a lot easier than cropping.

161 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:22:10am

re: #154 brownbagj

Kramer to Jerry: You're a RAGING ANTI-DENTITE!

hehe The last line of that show is the best.

Jerry's g/f: What do you call a doctor who fails out of med school?
Jerry: What?
Jerry's g/f: A dentist.
Jerry: That's a good one!
Jerry's g/f: Yeah, who needs 'em? Not to mention the Blacks and the Jews.

162 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:22:48am

re: #153 NJDhockeyfan

It also proves he's from another country.

//

Actually, "corps" is one of those words that confuse the heck out of native speakers, even.

I still remember when I was a young reader and first encountered the word. My mom was my dictionary in those days, so I asked her whether there was an "e" missing from the end. Good guess, she said. But wrong.

She told me how to pronounce it, what it meant, and then explained about words of French origin.

I have a great mom.

163 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:23:54am

Here's a slideshow of another activist returning to Turkey.
Nice tats. He looks peaceful.

164 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:23:54am

re: #158 Killgore Trout

This is why Reuters wanted to alter the picture...

Turkish group releases photos of Israeli soldiers

Predictable.

I'm pissed at just about everybody right now...sometimes I think if I were younger I'd pack up and head to Israel....be a Joo
GO ISRAEL!

165 Mar  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:24:36am

The marine looks like he has defensive wounds on his hands.

166 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:24:57am

re: #164 albusteve

No bacon. Count me out.

167 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:25:31am

re: #158 Killgore Trout

This is why Reuters wanted to alter the picture...

Turkish group releases photos of Israeli soldiers

Predictable.

Did I call it or what? "No no, they're not attacking those Marines, they're helping them! Can't you understand their peaceful intentions?!"

Now it's worse that Reuters simply cropping the photos on their own, they're actively colluding with these assholes to cover up the truth.

168 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:25:43am

re: #166 Killgore Trout

No bacon. Count me out.


Three words.
Orbital. Resupply. Drops.

169 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:25:55am

re: #166 Killgore Trout

No bacon. Count me out.

heh...a consideration I guess

170 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:26:20am

re: #166 Killgore Trout

No bacon. Count me out.

We do have bacon, just not at every store.

171 tradewind  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:26:48am

Did al Reuters alter a photo to make Israel look bad ? Let's revisit....
(sorry if this is a repeat, gotta run).

172 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:26:53am

re: #163 Killgore Trout

Here's a slideshow of another activist returning to Turkey.
Nice tats. He looks peaceful.

nice blood job...I bet I could add even more

173 steve_davis  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:27:23am

well I took a chance on DailyKos and started to fight back against the "freedom fighters" meme that is pretty rampant over there. So far, no hide ratings, but I haven't looked in a few hours. Posters on this site should probably understand that the mostly silent pro-Israel part of the leftwing is not being silent because it doesn't exist, but because long experience has taught many that when things like this happen, it is better to let the hyperbolic kneejerk side rant and rave for a few days before entering into the waters. Otherwise, you are simply asking for a beating.

174 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:27:28am

re: #164 albusteve

I'm pissed at just about everybody right now...sometimes I think if I were younger I'd pack up and head to Israel...be a Joo
GO ISRAEL!

You can still head to Israel, you know. And you don't even have to be a Jew! How's that! For real real... it's a wonderful place and you'll have an amazing time.

175 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:28:03am

re: #165 Mar

The marine looks like he has defensive wounds on his hands.

Good catch. I was too focused on the knife.

As was the marine, most likely.

Yep. Those are defense wounds. Classic.

I hope Israel is still holding the guy with the knife. Chances are they could identify and charge him from his hand and clothes in the picture.

176 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:28:47am

re: #173 steve_davis

well I took a chance on DailyKos and started to fight back against the "freedom fighters" meme that is pretty rampant over there. So far, no hide ratings, but I haven't looked in a few hours. Posters on this site should probably understand that the mostly silent pro-Israel part of the leftwing is not being silent because it doesn't exist, but because long experience has taught many that when things like this happen, it is better to let the hyperbolic kneejerk side rant and rave for a few days before entering into the waters. Otherwise, you are simply asking for a beating.

What part of the left is not pro-Israel? Talk about knee jerk reaction.

177 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:29:02am

re: #175 Cato the Elder

They've all gone back home.

178 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:29:58am

re: #174 marjoriemoon

You can still head to Israel, you know. And you don't even have to be a Jew! How's that! For real real... it's a wonderful place and you'll have an amazing time.

my parents spent a few weeks there one time, and my dad taped the entire trip....they were just so impressed and it topped all their worldly travels....and my dad loved hot women

179 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:30:08am

re: #175 Cato the Elder

As I said, it could also be from him putting his hand over a wound somewhere else. Not necessarily defensive wounds. But definitely consistent with them.

180 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:30:24am

re: #173 steve_davis

well I took a chance on DailyKos and started to fight back against the "freedom fighters" meme that is pretty rampant over there. So far, no hide ratings, but I haven't looked in a few hours. Posters on this site should probably understand that the mostly silent pro-Israel part of the leftwing is not being silent because it doesn't exist, but because long experience has taught many that when things like this happen, it is better to let the hyperbolic kneejerk side rant and rave for a few days before entering into the waters. Otherwise, you are simply asking for a beating.

Well I'm a Jewish Democrat Zionist and if you want my views on the subject, you can find them here.

The problem is that we're a small minority all around, even among our own political party. The good news is that Democrat Congresscritters fully support Israel.

181 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:30:51am

re: #177 abaleh

They've all gone back home.

Maybe. Or maybe this guy is in a cooler in the Ashdod morgue.

182 AK-47%  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:31:14am

re: #162 Cato the Elder

Actually, "corps" is one of those words that confuse the heck out of native speakers, even.

I still remember when I was a young reader and first encountered the word. My mom was my dictionary in those days, so I asked her whether there was an "e" missing from the end. Good guess, she said. But wrong.

She told me how to pronounce it, what it meant, and then explained about words of French origin.

I have a great mom.

A Colonel in the Marine Corps...

183 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:33:29am

re: #159 Varek Raith


Sign here.

XD

Done. Sitting back with shades on ...

184 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:34:00am

re: #182 ralphieboy

A Colonel in the Marine Corps...

worth more than any 3 star general in the Army

185 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:34:22am

re: #178 albusteve

...and my dad loved hot women

We still have those.

186 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:36:37am

The youngest step-critter has a graduation get together at the house this afternoon... a house full of super nerdy almost adults... not normal teens... they won't be drinking, smoking, having sex... they will probably sit around and watch a Animal Planet marathon or something... not normal... I'm glad I'll be at work for 8 hours, until 10 pm tonight, I should be able to miss most of it.

187 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:37:02am

re: #185 abaleh

We still have those.

My favorites are the ones in uniform.

The Jewish Hair Ray Brigade!

188 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:38:44am

re: #166 Killgore Trout

No bacon. Count me out.

Well, there's always this.

189 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:39:07am

re: #182 ralphieboy

A Colonel in the Marine Corps...

Actually, my mom is a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the Grammar Police.

190 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:39:30am

I love going to Israel, but the Kosher McDonald's in the airport is horrible...

191 steve_davis  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:39:47am

re: #54 Charles

There's absolutely no way you could be editing such a photo for publication and miss the knife. It's simply not possible.

Charles, you'd be surprised. I've had to edit pictures before in a hurry for a paper, and normally the goal is just to get something to fit, or to get something centered. There's every chance whoever did this was paying no attention to what was going on in the picture. It's the same reason headlines often seem really stupid in relation to what is going on in the text of a story. The people generating the headlines often have not even bothered to read through a story. They're just trying to come up with the magical number of words that will fit in a given space, based on a font size. In my experience, reporters almost never have anything to do with headlines. It's generally a frantic editor in cut-and-paste trying to get copy to fit on a board. (Or on virtual board if something is being done on computer, which pretty much includes everything nowadays).

192 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:41:09am

re: #191 steve_davis

Unless, again, there is a pattern and history of photograph editing that puts one side in a negative position.

193 AK-47%  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:41:27am

Way OT, but could somebody please verify this example of a severe irony deficiency?

[Link: www.page2live.com...]

194 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:41:58am

re: #189 Cato the Elder

Actually, my mom is a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the Grammar Police.

---

I am the King of Rome, and above grammar.


-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor

195 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:42:24am

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

My girls turn 8 years old today. We are on the way to Richmond with the neighbor's kid to eat at Chuckie Cheese.

196 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:42:49am

re: #190 brownbagj

I love going to Israel, but the Kosher McDonald's in the airport is horrible...

I know that McDonald's ... got me a McSchwarma there in 2007.

197 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:42:51am

re: #195 NJDhockeyfan

Welcome to Hell. Chucky Cheese.....

198 steve_davis  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:43:01am

re: #176 Walter L. Newton

What part of the left is not pro-Israel? Talk about knee jerk reaction.

Uhm, plenty of it. And I'm part of the left, so I'm not trying to deliver a slap, just pointing out that yes, the nasty anti-Semitism that can be found in Europe's Left can also be found to the left of the spectrum here at home. Of course, it can be found in even more virulent form in the right-wing. At least the left-wing doesn't hide anti-semitism behind End Times ideology.

199 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:44:34am

re: #191 steve_davis

On this photo, regarding this story - you're just wrong.


re: #198 steve_davis

Uhm, plenty of it. And I'm part of the left, so I'm not trying to deliver a slap, just pointing out that yes, the nasty anti-Semitism that can be found in Europe's Left can also be found to the left of the spectrum here at home. Of course, it can be found in even more virulent form in the right-wing. At least the left-wing doesn't hide anti-semitism behind End Times ideology.

yes, yes, yes.
Left-wing anti-Semitism is better than right-wing anti-Semitism. We get it.

200 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:45:09am

re: #193 ralphieboy

Way OT, but could somebody please verify this example of a severe irony deficiency?

[Link: www.page2live.com...]

I thought Rush was already married.

What's this one, matrimonial sex-toy number seven?

201 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:45:22am

re: #191 steve_davis

Charles, you'd be surprised. I've had to edit pictures before in a hurry for a paper, and normally the goal is just to get something to fit, or to get something centered. There's every chance whoever did this was paying no attention to what was going on in the picture. It's the same reason headlines often seem really stupid in relation to what is going on in the text of a story. The people generating the headlines often have not even bothered to read through a story. They're just trying to come up with the magical number of words that will fit in a given space, based on a font size. In my experience, reporters almost never have anything to do with headlines. It's generally a frantic editor in cut-and-paste trying to get copy to fit on a board. (Or on virtual board if something is being done on computer, which pretty much includes everything nowadays).

Take a good look at the touch-up job, it was deliberate removal of the knife; you can see where portions of the deck were put in place where the knife-handle was.

202 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:45:23am

re: #199 reine.de.tout

On this photo, regarding this story - you're just wrong.

re: #198 steve_davis

yes, yes, yes.
Left-wing anti-Semitism is better than right-wing anti-Semitism. We get it.

It's more humane, don'tchaknow?

203 AK-47%  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:45:48am

re: #199 reine.de.tout

On this photo, regarding this story - you're just wrong.


re: #198 steve_davis


yes, yes, yes.
Left-wing anti-Semitism is better than right-wing anti-Semitism. We get it.

In a way, you might say so: LW Anti-Semitism is just anti-Israel, RW Anti-Semitism wants to bring about the End of the Entire World...

204 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:45:57am

re: #198 steve_davis

Uhm, plenty of it. And I'm part of the left, so I'm not trying to deliver a slap, just pointing out that yes, the nasty anti-Semitism that can be found in Europe's Left can also be found to the left of the spectrum here at home. Of course, it can be found in even more virulent form in the right-wing. At least the left-wing doesn't hide anti-semitism behind End Times ideology.

No, they hide it behind "humanitarianism".

205 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:46:43am

re: #20 Gang of One

Most likely. Any word on this soldier? Is he OK?


I do not know if the following is the same solider.

Daniel Lazar ben Tina Taabel Lea, one of the soldiers badly injured on the flotilla boat is from Alon Shvut in Gush Etzion.. He had his ear cut off by a knife, it was just holding by a scrap of skin, was shot in the leg and has a very badly injured arm. He is, thank G-d, recovering and the ear has been re-attached but it is going to be a very long and painful road to recovery.

Source: arutz7

206 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:47:02am

Via commenter Ateelaw over at True/Slant:

“Peace activists” doesn’t mean “pacifist”.

HAHAHAH!!

With that type of thinking no wonder we can't get anywhere.

/"Black" doesn't mean "opposite of white".

207 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:47:18am

re: #204 Cato the Elder

No, they hide it behind "humanitarianism".

I never got the logic behind that word. I mean, if vegetarians eat only vegetables, then what do humanitarians eat?

208 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:47:45am

re: #201 Gang of One

Take a good look at the touch-up job, it was deliberate removal of the knife; you can see where portions of the deck were put in place where the knife-handle was.

Huh? The knife was cropped out. No retouching necessary. Or is there a second knife I'm missing?

209 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:48:23am

re: #203 ralphieboy

In a way, you might say so: LW Anti-Semitism is just anti-Israel, RW Anti-Semitism wants to bring about the End of the Entire World...

Home Depot doesn't sell brushes that big.

210 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:49:55am

re: #208 Cato the Elder

Huh? The knife was cropped out. No retouching necessary. Or is there a second knife I'm missing?

Ah, you are right. I took a very close look, and what is the handle of the knife looks like the deck. The cropping job -- could have been done from the top, but the knife was cropped out.

211 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:50:35am

re: #194 JasonA

-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor

Ego sum rex Romanus, et supra grammaticam.

212 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:50:37am

re: #209 JasonA

Home Depot doesn't sell brushes that big.

The left/right spectrum doesn't really exist, and antisemitism is a good demonstration of that. I have seen the exact same conspiracy theories, accusations, rants, prejudices, etc. against Jews from both 'right' and 'left' wing people. Exactly the same.

213 usufruct  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:50:45am

I find the cropped photo actually is much more powerful in conveying the fear of the commando and results in a much more powerful reaction than the first. If the intention is to support a pro-activist narrative I find it does the opposite.

214 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:51:39am

re: #198 steve_davis

Uhm, plenty of it. And I'm part of the left, so I'm not trying to deliver a slap, just pointing out that yes, the nasty anti-Semitism that can be found in Europe's Left can also be found to the left of the spectrum here at home. Of course, it can be found in even more virulent form in the right-wing. At least the left-wing doesn't hide anti-semitism behind End Times ideology.

There is no anti-semitism, the is no racism, there is no bigotry on the left... you must be hallucinating... if there was, it would be reported in the news...

215 Ojoe  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:52:10am

re: #15 albusteve

deceitful assholes shaping opinion...I hate the MSM with a passion
spit

Concur 100%

216 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:52:51am

re: #213 usufruct

I find the cropped photo actually is much more powerful in conveying the fear of the commando and results in a much more powerful reaction than the first. If the intention is to support a pro-activist narrative I find it does the opposite.

The same effect could have been created had the photo been cropped from the top. The fear is tangible either way, but with the knife shown, we know why the terror.
/just my USD $00.02

217 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:53:05am

re: #213 usufruct

I find the cropped photo actually is much more powerful in conveying the fear of the commando and results in a much more powerful reaction than the first. If the intention is to support a pro-activist narrative I find it does the opposite.

Except without the knife in frame, then the question becomes "Is he really afraid of them?" The argument would be raised that he was in fact afraid of others who were attacking him, but those in the shot are there to protect him. By taking the knife out of the picture, you give the room to argue that this is actually a picture of mercy on the part of the "activists" than proof of just how dangerous they truly were.

218 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:53:12am

re: #213 usufruct

I find the cropped photo actually is much more powerful in conveying the fear of the commando and results in a much more powerful reaction than the first. If the intention is to support a pro-activist narrative I find it does the opposite.

The first image is low quality.
If we had the same image at the same quality of the cropped image we could better judge the reaction to each.

219 Ojoe  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:54:28am

re: #211 Cato the Elder

"I build my cars to go, not to stop."

E. Bugatti

220 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:55:19am

re: #216 Gang of One

The same effect could have been created had the photo been cropped from the top. The fear is tangible either way, but with the knife shown, we know why the terror.
/just my USD $00.02

Which taking into account inflation and the upcoming .02 tax in the works... we won't even have that to give anymore.
//

221 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:55:27am

re: #212 Obdicut

The left/right spectrum doesn't really exist, and antisemitism is a good demonstration of that. I have seen the exact same conspiracy theories, accusations, rants, prejudices, etc. against Jews from both 'right' and 'left' wing people. Exactly the same.

Agreed.
Which is why I found it so odd that the person upthread tried to say that left-wing anti-semitism was somehow - better. What an odd thing to say.

End-timers are very pro-Israel, iirc, for all the wrong reasons.
Bigotry against Jews from the right or the left is bascially all the same.

222 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:55:30am

re: #191 steve_davis

Charles, you'd be surprised. I've had to edit pictures before in a hurry for a paper, and normally the goal is just to get something to fit, or to get something centered. There's every chance whoever did this was paying no attention to what was going on in the picture. It's the same reason headlines often seem really stupid in relation to what is going on in the text of a story. The people generating the headlines often have not even bothered to read through a story. They're just trying to come up with the magical number of words that will fit in a given space, based on a font size. In my experience, reporters almost never have anything to do with headlines. It's generally a frantic editor in cut-and-paste trying to get copy to fit on a board. (Or on virtual board if something is being done on computer, which pretty much includes everything nowadays).

It is very deliberately cropped across the man's shoe so as not to include the knife.

Why didn't they leave the knife and crop it off from the top? You could still see the solider that way.

223 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:56:28am

re: #203 ralphieboy

In a way, you might say so: LW Anti-Semitism is just anti-Israel, RW Anti-Semitism wants to bring about the End of the Entire World...

How does Helen Thomas fit in to your anti-semite formula?

224 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:56:28am

Jewish flotilla to break Gaza siege

Oh, brother

225 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:56:53am

re: #219 Ojoe

"I build my cars to go, not to stop."

E. Bugatti

"You can have a car painted any colour that you want, so long as it is black".

Henry Ford

226 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:57:18am

re: #210 Gang of One

Ah, you are right. I took a very close look, and what is the handle of the knife looks like the deck. The cropping job -- could have been done from the top, but the knife was cropped out.

The cropping was done deliberately and very carefully.

Take a look at the thumb of the hand holding the knife in the Turkish version of the picture. Then look at the cropped photo. The thumb ends right where the handle of the knife would become visible if the crop job were moved back even a fraction of an inch.

One could speculate why Hürriyet, a Turkish newspaper not known for its love of Israel, would do a better job of actual photo-reportage than Reuters, but I'm beyond speculation and into the realm of certainty here.

re: #191 steve_davis

Charles, you'd be surprised. I've had to edit pictures before in a hurry for a paper, and normally the goal is just to get something to fit, or to get something centered. There's every chance whoever did this was paying no attention to what was going on in the picture. It's the same reason headlines often seem really stupid in relation to what is going on in the text of a story. The people generating the headlines often have not even bothered to read through a story. They're just trying to come up with the magical number of words that will fit in a given space, based on a font size. In my experience, reporters almost never have anything to do with headlines. It's generally a frantic editor in cut-and-paste trying to get copy to fit on a board. (Or on virtual board if something is being done on computer, which pretty much includes everything nowadays).

See above.

227 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:57:33am

re: #221 reine.de.tout

Agreed.
Which is why I found it so odd that the person upthread tried to say that left-wing anti-semitism was somehow - better. What an odd thing to say.

End-timers are very pro-Israel, iirc, for all the wrong reasons.
Bigotry against Jews from the right or the left is bascially all the same.

No defense to 'End-timers' but in this point of the game I would take support from where-ever I can get it if I were Israel. I mean 'End-timers' aren't necessarily BNP material that is supporting you.

228 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:57:52am

re: #223 NJDhockeyfan

How does Helen Thomas fit in to your anti-semite formula?

She apologized.
she just wants everybody to get along.

/

229 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:58:18am

re: #228 abaleh

She apologized.
she just wants everybody to get along. OUT

/

ftfy

230 Ojoe  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:58:23am

re: #221 reine.de.tout

It is the same & it is from day one & I think it relates to not wanting to hear any message.

231 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:58:31am

re: #224 abaleh

Jewish flotilla to break Gaza siege

Oh, brother

*EPIC GIANT MONSTER FACEPALM*

232 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:58:50am

re: #219 Ojoe

"I build my cars to go, not to stop."

E. Bugatti

And with that, time for me to Bugatti on out of here. I need a shower after so much media deception.

233 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:59:37am

re: #232 Cato the Elder

And with that, time for me to Bugatti on out of here. I need a shower after so much media deception.

There's not enough water available in Baltimore!

234 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:00:27am

off to find me some dinner

235 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:00:41am

re: #224 abaleh

Jewish flotilla to break Gaza siege

Oh, brother

The crocodile will, of course, eat them last.

236 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:00:55am

We've arrived at CC. Later.

237 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:01:06am

re: #225 sattv4u2

"You can have a car painted any colour that you want, so long as it is black".

Henry Ford

"Everything in life is somewhere else, and you get there in a car."

E. B. White

238 Ojoe  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:01:10am

re: #225 sattv4u2

Henry Ford himself held the land speed record at one time.

BBL

239 ryannon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:01:29am

re: #43 Rightwingconspirator

Took 3 or 4 in the head they say. Another very good indication.

His father was proud of his 'martyrdom'. I posted the excerpt of an interview with him a few days ago, and it seemed pretty clear where the family was coming from, ideologically speaking.

240 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:02:06am

re: #237 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"Everything in life is somewhere else, and you get there in a car."

E. B. White

"When you come to the fork in the road, take it"

Yogi Berra

241 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:02:11am

re: #221 reine.de.tout

Well, I would say (as I've said before) that a lot of people on the 'left'-- like college student types--are not anti-semitic, but are very anti-Israel, because they believe bullshit they hear about Israel. They manage the disconnect in their brain of being quite pro-American Jews (who tend to be liberal, tend to be very strong on civil rights, etc.) while being quite anti-Israel.

Whereas there are many of those on the 'right' who are pro-Israel, but in accusing the 'left' of total antisemitism are-- whether they know it or not-- accusing Jews of being self-hating or being okay with antisemitism. I see a lot of people on LGF angrily castigating the left wing for supposedly rampant antisemitism while ignoring that most Jews in the US are leftist. This can even lead, sometimes, to a person on the 'right' expressing the feeling that any Jew who is not in Israel is somehow not really a Jew, or at least not as much of a Jew as one who is in Israel. You also see a lot of people on the right attacking prominent 'leftist' Jews like Soros with information sourced from antisemites.

Then, of course, you've got the Bircher/Paulian contingent, who combine being anti-Israel with being very, very anti-Jewish. They have their mirror on the 'left' in terms of those who identify "neocons" as a subgroup of Jews.

It's all rather depressing.

242 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:02:35am

re: #232 Cato the Elder

And with that, time for me to Bugatti on out of here. I need a shower after so much media deception.

Die dulci freure, Cato.

243 ryannon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:03:31am

re: #45 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

On a side note, I just posted a link to upcoming drama: A group of Israeli university students are organizing a counter-flotilla to Turkey to bring to light the historic suffering of the Armenians and Kurds.

Most comments on that site think it's a great idea, but some are concerned it could end badly.

It could end very badly. They have no idea.

244 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:04:03am

re: #223 NJDhockeyfan

How does Helen Thomas fit in to your anti-semite formula?

Helen Thomas is a non-issue, which the right is trying to make an outrage out of... did you see anything about in the media? Barely. Drudge still has it as his headline... for two days... he's trying to milk it and it's not even a story. What fair and balanced blogs did you see it on? I can't find it on KOS or CNN or...

245 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:04:13am

re: #217 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Except without the knife in frame, then the question becomes "Is he really afraid of them?" The argument would be raised that he was in fact afraid of others who were attacking him, but those in the shot are there to protect him. By taking the knife out of the picture, you give the room to argue that this is actually a picture of mercy on the part of the "activists" than proof of just how dangerous they truly were.

Exactly, and the man's mouth is opened so he's obviously in pain, he has obvious wounds, stabbed in the stomach and a man is standing next to him with a knife! Did he JUST stab him? Looks like it to me. In fact, the way they're holding his arm, it looks like he probably just collapsed which you don't get without the full picture.

246 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:04:57am

re: #243 ryannon

It could end very badly. They have no idea.

It's a freaking terrible idea, that leads to nightmare scenarios like a terrorist group putting a bomb on that boat or sabotaging it: the wet dream of antisemitic terrorists, killing Jews and blaming other Jews for the killing.

247 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:05:13am

re: #234 abaleh

off to find me some dinner

I'll leave you with this little treasure.

248 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:06:32am

re: #244 Walter L. Newton

Helen Thomas is a non-issue, which the right is trying to make an outrage out of... did you see anything about in the media? Barely. Drudge still has it as his headline... for two days... he's trying to milk it and it's not even a story. What fair and balanced blogs did you see it on? I can't find it on KOS or CNN or...

Of COURSE it's a non-issue. If it were a big problem, the administration wouldn't let her stay in the front row of the press room!

249 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:07:29am

BBIAB. Play nice, peeps.

250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:08:42am

re: #48 CDRealist

How "Realist" of you.

251 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:09:05am

re: #248 sattv4u2

Of COURSE it's a non-issue. If it were a big problem, the administration wouldn't let her stay in the front row of the press room!

You made my point for me. So, let's stop outraging over Helen Thomas... she is a national treasure.

252 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:09:25am

re: #250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How "Realist" of you.

Depends on the "CD", I guess!

253 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:09:53am

re: #251 Walter L. Newton

You made my point for me. So, let's stop outraging over Helen Thomas... she is a national treasure.

She's in the Smithsonian?

254 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:10:00am

re: #251 Walter L. Newton

You made my point for me. So, let's stop outraging over Helen Thomas... she is a national treasure.

Which nation?

255 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:10:02am

re: #248 sattv4u2

Of COURSE it's a non-issue. If it were a big problem, the administration wouldn't let her stay in the front row of the press room!

I think the "no big deal" is trying to make her Obama's spokesperson. If Obama threw her out the wingnuts would cry about suppressing dissent. Her employer is responsible and she should be fired.

256 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:10:16am

re: #253 sattv4u2

She's in the Smithsonian?

No... but she should be buried.

257 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:10:44am

re: #163 Killgore Trout

Here's a slideshow of another activist returning to Turkey.
Nice tats. He looks peaceful.

Religion of Harley Davidson?

258 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:11:10am

re: #255 Killgore Trout

I think the "no big deal" is trying to make her Obama's spokesperson. If Obama threw her out the wingnuts would cry about suppressing dissent. Her employer is responsible and she should be fired.

hehehe,, c'mere

I have a pair of pliers to help you get the hook out!

259 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:12:23am

re: #258 sattv4u2

You are reeling him in too fast, give him some slack and play it a little. :)

260 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:13:35am

re: #259 brownbagj

You are reeling him in too fast, give him some slack and play it a little. :)

Or we could stop trolling each other. That would be nice.

261 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:14:19am

re: #258 sattv4u2

It's frustrating to watch ODS destroy what should be an easy PR victory. There are plenty of lefties who feel the way she does, even though they're smart enough to not say it in public. Obama doesn't share her views and is not responsible for what she says.

262 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:14:28am

Sorry.

263 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:14:45am

re: #260 Obdicut

Or we could stop trolling each other. That would be nice.

Geez Louise

Walter and I were bantering back and forth

KT jumped the shark

NOBODY "trolled" ANYONE

264 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:14:59am

re: #262 brownbagj

Sorry.

don't be

see 263

265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:15:46am

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Your company sold gasoline to me today for 1.79 per gallon. Thank your boss for me.

266 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:16:13am

re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Your company sold gasoline to me today for 1.79 per gallon. Thank your boss for me.

...bwah?

267 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:16:51am

re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Your company sold gasoline to me today for 1.79 per gallon. Thank your boss for me.

Must have some incriminating photos to get gas that cheap...

268 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:17:13am

re: #261 Killgore Trout

It's frustrating to watch ODS destroy what should be an easy PR victory. There are plenty of lefties who feel the way she does, even though they're smart enough to not say it in public. Obama doesn't share her views and is not responsible for what she says.

100% correct

Now lets see how he and his admin "handle" her in the future

Me,,, she's be relegated to the back row again, just like she was when she was trashing the Bush admin and they distanced themselves from her

269 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:17:29am

re: #266 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Got a free loaf of bread to boot!

270 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:17:32am

re: #267 JasonA

Must have some incriminating photos to get gas that cheap...

Look at Walters avatar and imagine!

271 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:18:41am

re: #269 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Got a free loaf of bread to boot!

What'd you do, rob the place at gunpoint?

272 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:19:35am

re: #261 Killgore Trout

What is ODS?

273 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:20:03am

re: #271 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

What'd you do, rob the place at gunpoint?

"he's between 6' 1" and 6' 3", depending on the convenience store"

Ron White

274 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:20:08am

re: #272 CuriousLurker

The opposite (yet the same thing) as BDS.

275 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:20:23am

re: #263 sattv4u2

Geez Louise

Walter and I were bantering back and forth

KT jumped the shark

NOBODY "trolled" ANYONE

Don't worry, he's just doing his job, he can't help it. Obdicut is the official Thread Police and LGF Residence Internet Psychologist (RIP)

276 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:20:26am

re: #272 CuriousLurker

What is ODS?

Obama Derangement Syndrome.

277 dugmartsch  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:20:41am

re: #116 Cato the Elder

If the photo editor thought it was a fucking gun barrel, that would make the cropping even more suspicious, wouldn't you say?

And the soldier is lying there with a bleeding wound to his groin. Where do you think that wound came from? A knife, perhaps?

And the cropping was done so the knife is just barely cut out of the picture. If the editor wanted a really dramatic shot, he would have cropped it in nearly the same way, but included the knife, to emphasize the potential connection between it and the wound.

Not doing so is about the best prima facie evidence of bad faith and an agenda that you could want, short of a statement by the editor.

I'd still like more information about what exactly happened on this ship.

The picture shows at least four people overpowering an IDF soldier, one of whom has a knife in his hand, though not gripped in an aggressive way. It seems like the intent was to take hostages and hold them for some kind of ransom? Obviously they weren't attempting to kill these IDF, as 4 vs 1 with a knife could easily be deadly if that was the intent.

So they captured the IDF, brought them below deck, and tragically nine people died during the hostage recovery. It's a FUBAR situation, but not exactly a massacre at a sit in, or something.

278 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:20:47am

re: #272 CuriousLurker

What is ODS?

Obama Derangement Syndrome
used to label people who criticize BO
nifty

279 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:20:58am

re: #272 CuriousLurker

What is ODS?

Obama
Derangement
Syndrome

(1st letter can be substituted for a "B" for Bush, "P" for Palin,, etc etc)

280 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:21:06am

re: #272 CuriousLurker

What is ODS?

Obama
Derangement
Syndrome

It's the fashionable new mental illness amongst the far-right, similar in many respects to a malady that once ran rampant amongst the far-left, BDS or Bush Derangement Syndrome.

281 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:21:14am

re: #274 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #276 reine.de.tout

Ohhh, got it. Thanks.

282 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:21:42am

re: #247 abaleh

I'll leave you with this little treasure.

Hah!

Someone should set that to music.

Note to Turkish PM: If you need three bodyguards to boost you into the saddle, you should go back to riding herd on Kurds.

283 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:22:25am

"Mom and Dad Save the World" is coming on.

YAY!

Jon Lovitz's Citizen Kane, it is.

But he didn't write or direct it.

284 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:22:57am

Thanks to everyone else who answered too. (You guys are faster than greased lightning!)

285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:22:59am

re: #272 CuriousLurker

What is ODS?

Do you know what VPILF is?

snicker...

286 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:23:12am

re: #277 dugmartsch

one of whom has a knife in his hand, though not gripped in an aggressive way.

yup ,, totally explainable and inocuous

he was just cutting a baloney sandwich at the time the IDF dropped in

OR

the knife stabbed the IDF soldier and tried to hide by JUMPING into the guys hand

Yuo , thats it!!

287 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:24:01am

re: #241 Obdicut

Well, I would say (as I've said before) that a lot of people on the 'left'-- like college student types--are not anti-semitic, but are very anti-Israel, because they believe bullshit they hear about Israel. They manage the disconnect in their brain of being quite pro-American Jews (who tend to be liberal, tend to be very strong on civil rights, etc.) while being quite anti-Israel.

Whereas there are many of those on the 'right' who are pro-Israel, but in accusing the 'left' of total antisemitism are-- whether they know it or not-- accusing Jews of being self-hating or being okay with antisemitism. I see a lot of people on LGF angrily castigating the left wing for supposedly rampant antisemitism while ignoring that most Jews in the US are leftist. This can even lead, sometimes, to a person on the 'right' expressing the feeling that any Jew who is not in Israel is somehow not really a Jew, or at least not as much of a Jew as one who is in Israel. You also see a lot of people on the right attacking prominent 'leftist' Jews like Soros with information sourced from antisemites.

Then, of course, you've got the Bircher/Paulian contingent, who combine being anti-Israel with being very, very anti-Jewish. They have their mirror on the 'left' in terms of those who identify "neocons" as a subgroup of Jews.

It's all rather depressing.

It is indeed all rather depressing.

But I still find it odd that the person upthread believes left-wing anti-semitism is somehow "better" than right-wing antisemitism.
Which is what started this whole thing.

288 american_peanuts  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:24:12am

re: #225 sattv4u2

"You can have a car painted any colour that you want, so long as it is black".

Henry Ford

"Honey, our crappy car just died."
- My wife

289 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:24:25am

re: #275 Walter L. Newton

Don't worry, he's just doing his job, he can't help it. Obdicut is the official Thread Police and LGF Residence Internet Psychologist (RIP)

I think internet psychiatry is stupid as hell, Walter.

I also think your shtick is tired, lame, and amounts to complaining that Charles hasn't posted a thread about Helen Thomas. You've brought it up like three times now. How many times do you want it discussed?

290 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:24:28am

re: #280 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Obama
Derangement
Syndrome

It's the fashionable new mental illness amongst the far-right, similar in many respects to a malady that once ran rampant amongst the far-left, BDS or Bush Derangement Syndrome.

It was never rampart among the far left. To be problematic, it must be a unfounded reason to be upset or bothered by the person or the persons policies. The left had very good reasons to hate Bush. It was Bush's own fault... he forced people to hate him.

291 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:24:50am

OK, joke time for those who were on the Beck thread last night:

What do you get when Glenn Beck runs out of dumb luck?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Glum Buck.

292 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:25:01am

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Do you know what VPILF is?

snicker...

Um, yeah I know that one. ;-)

293 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:25:10am

re: #289 Obdicut

I think internet psychiatry is stupid as hell, Walter.

I also think your shtick is tired, lame, and amounts to complaining that Charles hasn't posted a thread about Helen Thomas. You've brought it up like three times now. How many times do you want it discussed?

Yawn.

294 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:26:00am

re: #289 Obdicut

I think internet psychiatry is stupid as hell, Walter.

I also think your shtick is tired, lame, and amounts to complaining that Charles hasn't posted a thread about Helen Thomas. You've brought it up like three times now. How many times do you want it discussed?

When have we been limited to what Charles posts?

iirc, the etiquette has always been, we've been able to go OT with pretty much anything after 100 posts!

Did that change?

295 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:26:01am

re: #289 Obdicut

I think internet psychiatry is stupid as hell, Walter.

I also think your shtick is tired, lame, and amounts to complaining that Charles hasn't posted a thread about Helen Thomas. You've brought it up like three times now. How many times do you want it discussed?

There you go... analyzing for all of us again... keep it up, makes you look silly.

296 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:26:18am

re: #289 Obdicut

I think internet psychiatry is stupid as hell, Walter.

I also think your shtick is tired, lame, and amounts to complaining that Charles hasn't posted a thread about Helen Thomas. You've brought it up like three times now. How many times do you want it discussed?

Um, Obdi, assuming that Walter is complaining about anything amounts to - internet psychology.

Psychiatry costs more.

297 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:26:56am

re: #296 Cato the Elder

Um, Obdi, assuming that Walter is complaining about anything amounts to - internet psychology.

Psychiatry costs more.

Bubble wrap, is very cheap.

298 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:27:05am

re: #289 Obdicut

I think internet psychiatry is stupid as hell, Walter.

I also think your shtick is tired, lame, and amounts to complaining that Charles hasn't posted a thread about Helen Thomas. You've brought it up like three times now. How many times do you want it discussed?

playing the Charles Card again?....now that's tiresome
stick to strafing

299 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:27:57am

re: #289 Obdicut

I think internet psychiatry is stupid as hell, Walter.

I also think your shtick is tired, lame, and amounts to complaining that Charles hasn't posted a thread about Helen Thomas. You've brought it up like three times now. How many times do you want it discussed?

And I don't give a fuck if Charles hasn't posted a thread on it... something wrong with me brining it up? As many times as I feel necessary... you got a score card there bucko, well, keep checking it off... keeps you off the streets.

300 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:28:19am

re: #290 Walter L. Newton

It was never rampart among the far left. To be problematic, it must be a unfounded reason to be upset or bothered by the person or the persons policies. The left had very good reasons to hate Bush. It was Bush's own fault... he forced people to hate him.

Image: SP3IIZTA6EN64E7F2NKLS6BTMEEB6XK7.jpg

301 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:28:27am

re: #287 reine.de.tout

I agree, the original comment was weird; I also don't think separating things into 'right' and 'left' really does much good for anyone other than the politicians.

In happier stuff, here's MarjorieMoon's post about John Kerry's strong defense of Israel:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Huffington and Marcos both criticized Israel, and Kerry defended Israel.

302 dugmartsch  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:28:28am

re: #286 sattv4u2

Hey.

I'm not justifying it's removal, it's an important piece of the story.

They weren't out to kill IDF soliders, there was obviously a plan to capture and hold hostage as many IDF as they could.

This wasn't just an act of mob resistance that got out of control, this was a coordinated effort, and that picture helps make it clear.

It is of course, not being reported that way in the slightest.

303 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:30:27am

re: #289 Obdicut

If Pat had said it, everyone would want to talk about it.

304 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:30:57am

re: #301 Obdicut

Huffington and Marcos both criticized Israel, and Kerry defended Israel.

Has Charles posted a thread on all of those !?!?!

:)

305 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:31:00am

re: #302 dugmartsch

I'm very glad it didn't turn into a hostage situation, or, even worse, them turning IDF soldiers over to Hamas.

306 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:33:05am

re: #277 dugmartsch


So they captured the IDF, brought them below deck, and tragically nine people died during the hostage recovery. It's a FUBAR situation, but not exactly a massacre at a sit in, or something.

Those guys deserve a Darwin Award.
How stupid do you have to be to take hostages from one of the World's elite hostage rescue teams?

307 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:34:14am

re: #287 reine.de.tout

It is indeed all rather depressing.

But I still find it odd that the person upthread believes left-wing anti-semitism is somehow "better" than right-wing antisemitism.
Which is what started this whole thing.

"Better" was your word, your strawman, you're putting quotes around something you said.

steve_davis said right-wing antisemitism was "more virulent," referring specifically to "End times ideology." Dominionist theology can accurately be described as both more two-faced and "virulent" than any brand of left-wing anti-semitism currently in play.

308 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:34:22am

re: #306 abaleh

Those guys deserve a Darwin Award.
How stupid do you have to be to take hostages from one of the World's elite hostage rescue teams?

two words...
raisins

309 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:35:43am

We've had 7 visits from Reuters this morning. Methinks they've noticed.

310 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:36:14am

re: #309 Killgore Trout

We've had 7 visits from Reuters this morning. Methinks they've noticed.

shut the lights and close the blinds and pretend we're out!

311 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:36:53am

The Israeli Facebooksphere is full of videos of Glen Beck defending Israel.
Why is it you guys don't like him?
Everybody here is so happy to see somebody in the American Media defending Israel.

312 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:37:03am

re: #307 goddamnedfrank

"Better" was your word, your strawman, you're putting quotes around something you said.

steve_davis said right-wing antisemitism was "more virulent," referring specifically to "End times ideology." Dominionist theology can accurately be described as both more two-faced and "virulent" than any brand of left-wing anti-semitism currently in play.


I don't think it can be accurately described as such, though. It's a very subjective statement.

Israelis actually do die because of the actions of Hamas and other terrorists. Dominionists have a creepy, weird-ass attitude towards Jews and Israel, and there's crap like the 'purified' comment by whats-her-name, but they don't result in the actual deaths of the Jews. Whereas strengthening and supporting Hamas can directly result in the deaths of Jews.

I don't see any point in quantifying either as 'more virulent'. It's not a competition.

313 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:37:07am

re: #309 Killgore Trout

We've had 7 visits from Reuters this morning. Methinks they've noticed.

Yep. And they're all going straight to this post.

314 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:37:42am

re: #313 Charles

Yep. And they're all going straight to this post.

damn,, they know we're home

better put out some cheese and crackers!

315 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:38:18am

re: #309 Killgore Trout

We've had 7 visits from Reuters this morning. Methinks they've noticed.

Seven visits from three different user agents, one of them a Blackberry. The brass has been alerted.

316 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:38:23am

re: #313 Charles

Yep. And they're all going straight to this post.

Bunglawala attack?

317 bratwurst  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:38:43am

re: #311 abaleh

The Israeli Facebooksphere is full of videos of Glen Beck defending Israel.
Why is it you guys don't like him?
Everybody here is so happy to see somebody in the American Media defending Israel.

Bear in mind that even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

318 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:39:13am

re: #299 Walter L. Newton

Why not just bring it up without doing the incredibly lame shtick, like bringing it up last night, and then, when Avanti started to talk about it, telling him that we weren't discussing it, we were discussing Beck?

What is the point of that?

319 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:40:38am

re: #317 bratwurst

Bear in mind that even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Or even a bloken crock.

320 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:40:56am

re: #311 abaleh

The Israeli Facebooksphere is full of videos of Glen Beck defending Israel.
Why is it you guys don't like him?
Everybody here is so happy to see somebody in the American Media defending Israel.

Well, this is part of the reason:

Glenn Beck Promotes Book by Antisemitic Nazi Sympathizer

321 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:41:06am

re: #318 Obdicut

Why not just bring it up without doing the incredibly lame shtick, like bringing it up last night, and then, when Avanti started to talk about it, telling him that we weren't discussing it, we were discussing Beck?

What is the point of that?

If you don't "get" Walter by now, I suggest you wither
A) ignore most if not all of his posts
or
B) have at the ready a pre-typed "what are you talking about" for a response
or
C) have plenty of drugs at the ready for the headaches you'll get

322 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:41:56am

re: #318 Obdicut

Why not just bring it up without doing the incredibly lame shtick, like bringing it up last night, and then, when Avanti started to talk about it, telling him that we weren't discussing it, we were discussing Beck?

What is the point of that?

Why don't you and Walter just take it outside?

I actually like you both, but in this case you're exhibiting your WDS.

323 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:42:03am

re: #318 Obdicut

Why not just bring it up without doing the incredibly lame shtick, like bringing it up last night, and then, when Avanti started to talk about it, telling him that we weren't discussing it, we were discussing Beck?

What is the point of that?

If you don't "get" Walter by now, I suggest you wEither
A) ignore most if not all of his posts
or
B) have at the ready a pre-typed "what are you talking about" for a response
or
C) have plenty of drugs at the ready for the headaches you'll get


pimf

324 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:42:24am

re: #321 sattv4u2

A) ignore most if not all of his posts

I wish he would "A) ignore most if not all of" my post. It's starting to sound like he has WDS.

325 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:42:46am

re: #322 Cato the Elder

Why don't you and Walter just take it outside?

I actually like you both, but in this case you're exhibiting your WDS.

re: #324 Walter L. Newton

I wish he would "A) ignore most if not all of" my post. It's starting to sound like he has WDS.

Think alike much?

326 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:43:12am

re: #325 Walter L. Newton

Think alike much?

you to need some alone time!?!?

327 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:43:36am

re: #326 sattv4u2

you tWo need some alone time!?!?

I suck

328 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:43:57am

re: #239 ryannon

Oh I missed that. I'll have to look that up. I'd like to know exactly what happened to him. He just might have been a knife or pistol wielder.

329 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:44:06am

re: #322 Cato the Elder

Sigh. Whatever. I'm going to go have lunch.

When you start categorizing me daying "I don't like Walter's boring shtick" as 'derangement', the term ceases to have any meaning.

330 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:44:25am

re: #302 dugmartsch

Hey.

I'm not justifying it's removal, it's an important piece of the story.

They weren't out to kill IDF soliders, there was obviously a plan to capture and hold hostage as many IDF as they could.

This wasn't just an act of mob resistance that got out of control, this was a coordinated effort, and that picture helps make it clear.

It is of course, not being reported that way in the slightest.

So, the knives were just for show? So were the slingshots and marbles and rocks? Steel poles just wound?

331 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:45:00am

re: #312 Obdicut

I don't think it can be accurately described as such, though. It's a very subjective statement.

Israelis actually do die because of the actions of Hamas and other terrorists. Dominionists have a creepy, weird-ass attitude towards Jews and Israel, and there's crap like the 'purified' comment by whats-her-name, but they don't result in the actual deaths of the Jews. Whereas strengthening and supporting Hamas can directly result in the deaths of Jews.

I don't see any point in quantifying either as 'more virulent'. It's not a competition.

Their actions are designed to facilitate Armageddon. They believe that their Church is Israel, and that the modern secular Jewish state has no future in God's plan beyond its role as a sacrificial pawn.

332 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:45:45am

re: #315 Charles

Seven visits from three different user agents, one of them a Blackberry. The brass has been alerted.

Nice.

333 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:46:04am

re: #331 goddamnedfrank

Their actions are designed to facilitate Armageddon. They believe that their Church is Israel, and that the modern secular Jewish state has no future in God's plan beyond its role as a sacrificial pawn.

sorta the way I see myself...
bring it on

334 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:46:36am

re: #333 albusteve

sorta the way I see myself...
bring it on

bold, not srike
sat-itis

335 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:46:43am

re: #329 Obdicut

Sigh. Whatever. I'm going to go have lunch.

When you start categorizing me daying "I don't like Walter's boring shtick" as 'derangement', the term ceases to have any meaning.

The trouble is, your "I don't like Walter's boring shtick" has become your main shtick.

336 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:46:49am

re: #331 goddamnedfrank

Their actions are designed to facilitate Armageddon. They believe that their Church is Israel, and that the modern secular Jewish state has no future in God's plan beyond its role as a sacrificial pawn.

Bingo... GDF is spot on in regards to this subject. It is an advanced form of supersuccession thinking.

337 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:47:24am

re: #316 Cato the Elder

Bunglawala attack?

Perhaps my favorite name.

338 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:48:05am

re: #319 Cato the Elder

Or even a bloken crock.

Is that where you cook your bloken?

339 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:49:07am

re: #331 goddamnedfrank

Their actions are designed to facilitate Armageddon. They believe that their Church is Israel, and that the modern secular Jewish state has no future in God's plan beyond its role as a sacrificial pawn.

And besides sitting around waiting/praying/hoping for Armageddon, they aren't doing anything to stop Israel/ Jews from existing, unlike Hamas, et al

I don;t think there are many people in Israel sitting around saying "oh my,, those people are praying for Armageddon" as much as they are saying "oh my, those people just blew up a pizza parlor and lobbed more rockets in"

340 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:49:27am

re: #311 abaleh

The Israeli Facebooksphere is full of videos of Glen Beck defending Israel.
Why is it you guys don't like him?
Everybody here is so happy to see somebody in the American Media defending Israel.

We don't like him because he's systematically poisoning the well of American political discourse.

Israelis should be wary of him because he's a crypto-Christian Zionist, and those guys like Israel for all the wrong reasons.

341 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:49:34am

re: #338 MandyManners

My broken clock is just blank all day... Not even right once. :)

342 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:50:33am

re: #341 Rightwingconspirator

My broken clock is just blank all day... Not even right once. :)

You need a new broken clock

wait ,, WHAT!?!?

343 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:50:34am

re: #341 Rightwingconspirator

My broken clock is just blank all day... Not even right once. :)

Stick the plug into the socket.

344 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:51:10am

re: #343 MandyManners

Stick the plug into the socket.

too easy... too easy

345 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:51:21am

re: #343 MandyManners

Stick the plug into the socket.

put the wine in the coconut

346 american_peanuts  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:51:25am

re: #340 Cato the Elder

We take them as they come...
But you are right, even when I try to "hear" him as an Israeli supporter I get a strong sense of messianic almost godlike aspiration.

347 lawhawk  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:51:27am

re: #315 Charles

Considering that this photo editing (the cropping of a critical portion of a photo) violates their code of principals.

Moreover, it may be a violation of the Reuters Guide to Standards and Photoshop.

While cropping is permitted by Reuters, this particular instance fundamentally changes the nature of the photo and the story being conveyed and I think it would violate those terms.

348 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:51:48am

re: #343 MandyManners

That was when the smoke got out of it.

349 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:52:00am

re: #339 sattv4u2

And besides sitting around waiting/praying/hoping for Armageddon, they aren't doing anything to stop Israel/ Jews from existing, unlike Hamas, et al

I don;t think there are many people in Israel sitting around saying "oh my,, those people are praying for Armageddon" as much as they are saying "oh my, those people just blew up a pizza parlor and lobbed more rockets in"

heh.
I find the beliefs (and hopes and desires) of the end-timers to be utterly ridiculous and distasteful.

But yeah, let's discuss "virulence".
Praying vs. Bombing.
sheesh.

350 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:52:09am

re: #343 MandyManners

Stick the plug into the socket.

That's what she said!

/What, too obvious?

351 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:52:51am

re: #347 lawhawk

Considering that this photo editing (the cropping of a critical portion of a photo) violates their code of principals.

Moreover, it may be a violation of the Reuters Guide to Standards and Photoshop.

While cropping is permitted by Reuters, this particular instance fundamentally changes the nature of the photo and the story being conveyed and I think it would violate those terms.

OOOOH!

352 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:53:03am

re: #347 lawhawk

Considering that this photo editing (the cropping of a critical portion of a photo) violates their code of principals.

Moreover, it may be a violation of the Reuters Guide to Standards and Photoshop.

While cropping is permitted by Reuters, this particular instance fundamentally changes the nature of the photo and the story being conveyed and I think it would violate those terms.

nice catch....
HEY ROOTERS!
PAY EXTRA ATTENTION HERE!

353 emcesq  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:54:04am

OT but only slightly given the present thread:

Today is the anniversary of the "longest day" 6-June 1944
May we never forget!

354 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:55:00am

re: #344 brookly red

too easy... too easy

Well, couldn't be a wind-up clock. Has to be an electric one.

355 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:55:18am

re: #349 reine.de.tout

heh.
I find the beliefs (and hopes and desires) of the end-timers to be utterly ridiculous and distasteful.

But yeah, let's discuss "virulence".
Praying vs. Bombing.
sheesh.

I know
Try this as an experiment

"Officer, that man prayed that I get hit in the head with a hammer"

"Officer, that man hit me in the head with a hammer"

//

356 mj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:55:24am

Specific Flotilla Passengers are Active Terror Operatives Linked to Al-Qaeda, Hamas, and Other Organizations

6 June 2010

The following passengers on board the Mavi Marmara are known to be involved in terrorist activity. The Mavi Marmara attempted to break the maritime closure on the Gaza Strip on Monday, May 31st 2010, and was boarded by Israel Navy forces.

Fatimah Mahmadi (born 1979), is a United States resident of Iranian origin, and an active member of the organization “Viva Palestine”, she attempted to smuggle forbidden electronic components into the Gaza Strip.

Ken O’Keefe (Born 1969), an American and British citizen, is a radical anti-Israel activist and operative of the Hamas Terror organization. He attempted to enter the Gaza Strip in order to form and train a commando unit for the Palestinian terror organization.

Hassan Iynasi (born 1982), a Turkish citizen and activist in a Turkish charity organization, is known of providing financial support to the Palestinian Islamic Jihad Terror organization.

Hussein Urosh, a Turkish citizen and activist in the IHH organization, was on his way to the Gaza Strip in order to assist in smuggling Al-Qaeda operatives via Turkey into the Strip.

Ahmad Umimon (born 1959), is a French citizen of Moroccan origin, and an operative of the Hamas Terrorist organization.

[Link: idfspokesperson.com...]

357 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:55:51am

re: #347 lawhawk

Considering that this photo editing (the cropping of a critical portion of a photo) violates their code of principals.

Moreover, it may be a violation of the Reuters Guide to Standards and Photoshop.

While cropping is permitted by Reuters, this particular instance fundamentally changes the nature of the photo and the story being conveyed and I think it would violate those terms.

Who's gonna' care at Reuters?

358 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:56:45am

Oh, goodness. You guys. bbiab

359 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:57:10am

re: #347 lawhawk

Whenever I photograph anything of any potential importance or controversy, I use the camera in raw file mode. Even if I'm kidding myself about the importance of the event. I have that original unaltered file. News organizations should only accept camera raw files. Then follow their own strict rules and ethics!

360 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:58:04am

re: #359 Rightwingconspirator

Whenever I photograph anything of any potential importance or controversy, I use the camera in raw file mode. Even if I'm kidding myself about the importance of the event. I have that original unaltered file. News organizations should only accept camera raw files. Then follow their own strict rules and ethics!


bwahaha!...good one

361 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:01:54pm

re: #315 Charles

Seven visits from three different user agents, one of them a Blackberry. The brass has been alerted.

Weasel word apology coming up shortly, with a likely whine about taking their mistakes "out of context". 10... 9... 8.

362 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:02:56pm

The more I look at that photo, by the way, the more I'm thinking that the guy holding the knife did the stabbing.

He's holding it in his left hand. The position of the wound on the Israeli marine is about where a low, left-handed stab would end up. Up and under the defensive gesture of the victim's hands, the left one of which is also bleeding.

The knife is not being held at the ready, but it would take a fraction of a second for the attacker to flip it into fight-mode.

Reuters's photo is larger and clearer than the one from Hürriyet - for the parts that are shown. I wonder what we would see on that knife if we had a full-scale enlargement to look at.

Blood, perhaps?

363 lawhawk  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:03:02pm

re: #359 Rightwingconspirator

Even under the rules, you can crop images:

Allowed:

* Cropping
* Adjustment of Levels to histogram limits
* Minor colour correction
* Sharpening at 300%, 0.3, 0
* Careful use of lasso tool
* Subtle use of burn tool
* Adjustment of highlights and shadows
* Eye dropper to check/set gray


Not Allowed:

* Additions or deletions to image
* Cloning & Healing tool (except dust)
* Airbrush, brush, paint
* Selective area sharpening
* Excessive lightening/darkening
* Excessive colour tone change
* Auto levels
* Blurring
* Eraser tool
* Quick Mask
* In-camera sharpening
* In-camera saturation styles


The above list is not exhaustive. Global Pictures Desk Deputy Editor Pedja Kujundzic and Kevin Coombs will be available to answer any questions on use of other functions not mentioned above including latest CS2 and upcoming CS3 functions.

This is a judgment call, but the real thing is that cropping to remove an unrelated or extraneous item, and a portion of the photo that bears directly on the image. This particular crop would have the same result as using an eraser tool.

Still, it does come down to following their own rules. They don't appear to have done so.

And with other media outlets running the same image uncropped, that can affect Reuters' bottom line if they can't be trusted.

364 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:06:26pm

re: #362 Cato the Elder

You can look at the AP photo, which is full sized and also high quality.
I can't see any blood on the knife.

365 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:06:27pm

re: #362 Cato the Elder

The more I look at that photo, by the way, the more I'm thinking that the guy holding the knife did the stabbing.

He's holding it in his left hand. The position of the wound on the Israeli marine is about where a low, left-handed stab would end up. Up and under the defensive gesture of the victim's hands, the left one of which is also bleeding.

The knife is not being held at the ready, but it would take a fraction of a second for the attacker to flip it into fight-mode.

Reuters's photo is larger and clearer than the one from Hürriyet - for the parts that are shown. I wonder what we would see on that knife if we had a full-scale enlargement to look at.

Blood, perhaps?

I was wondering about that it all seems he did the stabbing but his grip seems very relaxed considering... the result of training perhaps?

366 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:08:36pm

re: #356 mj

Iran's PressTV's list of dead Turks:

1. Ibrahim Bilgen 61, was an electrical engineer from Siirt. He was a member of the Chamber of Electrical Engineers of Turkey. He ran as a Saadet (Felicity) Party candidate in the Turkish general election of 2007 and the Siirt mayoral election of 2009. He was married with 6 children.

2. Ali Haydar Bengi, 39, ran a telephone repair shop in Diyarbakir. He was a graduate of Al-Azhar University, Cairo (Department of Arabic Literature). He was married to Saniye Bengi and had four children — Mehunur (15), Semanur (10), and twins Mohammed and Senanur (5).

3. Cevdet Kiliçlar, 38, was from Kayseri. He was a graduate of Marmara University's Faculty of Communications and formerly a newspaper journalist for the National Gazette and the Anatolia Times. For the past year, he was a reporter and webmaster for the Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH). He was married to Derya Kiliçlar, and had one daughter, Gülhan, and one son, Erdem.

4. Cetin Topçuoglu, 54, was from Adana. He was a former amateur soccer player and taekwondo champion who coached Turkey's national taekwondo team. He was married and had one son, Aytek. His wife, Cigdem Topçuoglu, was also aboard the Mavi Marmara, but survived.

5. Necdet Yildirim, 32, was an IHH aid worker from Malatya. He was married to Refika Yildirim and had one daughter, Melek, aged three.

6. Fahri Yaldiz , 43, was a firefighter who worked for the Municipality of Adiyaman. He was married and had four sons.

7. Cengiz Songür, 47, was from Izmir. He was married to Nurcan Songür and had six daughters and one son.

8. Cengiz Akyüz, 41, was from Iskenderun. He was married to Nimet Akyüz and had three children — Furkan (14), Beyza (12), and Erva Kardelen (nine).

9. Furkan Dogan, 19, was in his senior year at Kayseri High School, where he was awaiting the results of his university entrance exams. He had hoped to become a doctor and loved chess. He was the son of Dr. Ahmet Dogan, an associate professor at Erciyes University. He was a Turkish-American dual national with two siblings.

367 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:08:52pm

re: #365 brookly red

I was wondering about that it all seems he did the stabbing but his grip seems very relaxed considering... the result of training perhaps?

Or the result of having accomplished the mission and relaxing?

re: #364 abaleh

You can look at the AP photo, which is full sized and also high quality.
I can't see any blood on the knife.

Probably wiped it on his pants.

I really hope this guy was still holding the knife when the rest of the commandos landed. And that he's one of the nine.

368 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:10:53pm

re: #364 abaleh

You can look at the AP photo, which is full sized and also high quality.
I can't see any blood on the knife.

Link, please?

369 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:11:06pm

re: #363 lawhawk

Caveat-I'm not a journalist or trained at all for that. News rules for photography are a world apart from my magazine work over many years.
T.H.B.S.
In this case they removed a key subject outright. So much so it's poorer composition. No good reason to do that. FAIL. Should have cropped the top, gotten rid of the feet. Way better shot. Now I'm tempted to do exactly that and page it.


This should hurt them in the credibility department.

370 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:11:11pm

It's a mistake to assume anything about the way he's holding the knife. This is a frozen split second of time -- he could have been shifting the knife to a different grip as the picture was taken. You can't assume that he was just standing there holding the knife like that.

371 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:11:37pm

re: #368 Cato the Elder

Link, please?

Charles linked at the top.

372 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:11:49pm

re: #364 abaleh

You can look at the AP photo, which is full sized and also high quality.
I can't see any blood on the knife.

Blood wouldn't necessarilly appear on a steel (dark bladed) knife as bright red, especially if after inserting the knife into the soldier it was pulled out not only through the skin, but through the soldiers clothing wiping off the "wettest" blood on the knife

373 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:12:21pm

re: #363 lawhawk

They could have cropped it at an angle and gotten a better result.
They cropped it using the original axis of the picture, and I think they did that to try to give themselves some sort of plausible deniability, or to follow internal guidelines about altering photos. Someones' hand is in the cookie jar and he got caught.

374 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:12:25pm

re: #368 Cato the Elder

Link, please?

[Link: www.google.com...]

375 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:12:29pm

re: #370 Charles

Tempts me to think he did the knife attack. Of course I am guessing but the thing is in his hand... Seems the most likely thing. Whose gonna take it from the attacker?

376 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:12:57pm

re: #356 mj

O'Keefe was a Marine in GW I who helped organize human shields before GW II.

377 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:13:52pm

re: #372 sattv4u2

Blood wouldn't necessarilly appear on a steel (dark bladed) knife as bright red, especially if after inserting the knife into the soldier it was pulled out not only through the skin, but through the soldiers clothing wiping off the "wettest" blood on the knife

doubt it....if the wound at his waist was caused from stabbing, it would be a gusher from the highly vascular location...something is very fishy

378 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:14:13pm

re: #241 Obdicut

I see a lot of people on LGF angrily castigating the left wing for supposedly rampant antisemitism while ignoring that most Jews in the US are leftist. This can even lead, sometimes, to a person on the 'right' expressing the feeling that any Jew who is not in Israel is somehow not really a Jew, or at least not as much of a Jew as one who is in Israel. You also see a lot of people on the right attacking prominent 'leftist' Jews like Soros with information sourced from antisemites.

Quoted for truth

379 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:14:17pm

re: #367 Cato the Elder

Probably wiped it on his pants.

I really hope this guy was still holding the knife when the rest of the commandos landed. And that he's one of the nine.

I still think the grip is telling, the average person would not be so relaxed in that kind of situation nor would the average person be able to use a knife effectively against a trained fighter... I suspect this person was trained to do this at some point.

380 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:14:39pm

OK, just saw Charles's update with the AP photo.

It, too, is slightly cropped. Note the missing sandaled feet on the left, visible in the Hürriyet picture.

But the essence of the photo is retained.

Reuters, you're boned.

381 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:15:55pm

re: #377 albusteve

doubt it...if the wound at his waist was caused from stabbing, it would be a gusher from the highly vascular location...something is very fishy


His hand was bleeding and he pulled his pants up.

382 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:16:10pm

I don't think the Marine was knifed...highly unlikely

383 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:16:39pm

re: #362 Cato the Elder

The more I look at that photo, by the way, the more I'm thinking that the guy holding the knife did the stabbing.

He's holding it in his left hand. The position of the wound on the Israeli marine is about where a low, left-handed stab would end up. Up and under the defensive gesture of the victim's hands, the left one of which is also bleeding.

The knife is not being held at the ready, but it would take a fraction of a second for the attacker to flip it into fight-mode.

Reuters's photo is larger and clearer than the one from Hürriyet - for the parts that are shown. I wonder what we would see on that knife if we had a full-scale enlargement to look at.

Blood, perhaps?

That was my thought up thread. He seems to have just fallen backwards. He's grabbing the guys arm and the guy has his wrist.

There could be blood on the knife, you can't tell.

384 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:17:31pm

re: #381 swamprat

His hand was bleeding and he pulled his pants up.

if he was stabbed to the hilt there, it would be a river of blood, maybe even fatal without immediate attention

385 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:17:33pm

re: #377 albusteve

doubt it...if the wound at his waist was caused from stabbing, it would be a gusher from the highly vascular location...something is very fishy

Is that even a wound? I see a fair-sized bit of non-bloodied flesh near the top of the mark.

386 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:17:45pm

re: #378 WindUpBird

Quoted for truth

Downdinged for bullshit.re: #382 albusteve

I don't think the Marine was knifed...highly unlikely

Huh?

Oh, I get it, that's just anxiety blood.

387 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:17:48pm

Here's an old LGF article on Ken O'Keefe:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

388 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:19:08pm

re: #386 Cato the Elder

That was supposed to be two separate replies.

WUP, downdinged for bullshit.

Steve, just wondering.

389 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:19:34pm

re: #385 MandyManners

Is that even a wound? I see a fair-sized bit of non-bloodied flesh near the top of the mark.

could just be a knick, hard to know.

390 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:19:46pm

re: #382 albusteve

I don't think the Marine was knifed...highly unlikely

Whence the blood?

391 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:20:21pm

re: #384 albusteve

if he was stabbed to the hilt there, it would be a river of blood, maybe even fatal without immediate attention

And maybe he was only stabbed lightly, because he grabbed the knife.

Your stretchmarks are showing, Steve.

392 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:20:47pm

re: #386 Cato the Elder

Huh?

Oh, I get it, that's just anxiety blood.

Camouflage blood

The IDF soldiers knew that at some point someones blood would be shed, so they smeared themselves with some before boarding to "blend in"!

393 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:21:17pm

re: #390 MandyManners

Whence the blood?

see 392

394 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:21:20pm

re: #387 Gus 802

Here's an old LGF article on Ken O'Keefe:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Oh, good catch. I didn't even think of looking for him here.

The tattooed tear has won me over. I'm convinced he's a really swell and compassionate guy.

395 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:22:13pm

re: #389 brookly red

could just be a knick, hard to know.

The blood drops apepar to be round.

396 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:22:31pm

re: #394 MandyManners

Oh, good catch. I didn't even think of looking for him here.

The tattooed tear has won me over. I'm convinced he's a really swell and compassionate guy.

Yeah. I was doing a Google search and the LGF link came up.

397 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:22:41pm

re: #385 MandyManners

Is that even a wound? I see a fair-sized bit of non-bloodied flesh near the top of the mark.

don't know...it looks like it to me, but not a deep puncture with the knife in the pic...that would be devastating

398 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:23:05pm

Incoming!!!
Stupid Rove and his weather machine.

399 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:23:42pm

re: #384 albusteve

His hand has a knife grab wound. They were trying to pull his pants down to hobble him, or they came down in the struggle. He pulled them up. The wound to his hand is not minor. Or he held his pants to staunch the blood.

400 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:24:04pm

re: #380 Cato the Elder

OK, just saw Charles's update with the AP photo.

It, too, is slightly cropped. Note the missing sandaled feet on the left, visible in the Hürriyet picture.

But the essence of the photo is retained.

Reuters, you're boned.

My version of a crop, not that it needed it but just to show how to illustrate the real subject-The violence

401 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:24:08pm

If you look at this picture, it looks like the same soldier, with the same guy holding him down. Notice the trickle of blood on the soldier's left hand, but there doesn't seem to be any on his abdomen, but the view is blocked by the terrorists knee.

402 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:24:37pm

re: #391 Cato the Elder

And maybe he was only stabbed lightly, because he grabbed the knife.

Your stretchmarks are showing, Steve.

something like that...

403 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:24:41pm

re: #396 Gus 802

Yeah. I was doing a Google search and the LGF link came up.

How far up?

404 IsraelForever  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:24:43pm

It seems based on these pictures that Israeli soldiers are not mindless killing machines, but real living, breathing, bleeding human beings after all.

405 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:24:45pm

re: #397 albusteve

don't know...it looks like it to me, but not a deep puncture with the knife in the pic...that would be devastating

Not ALL knife woulds go to the hilt of the balde (thank God)

Ever cut yourself with a kitchen knife? Has it always gone all the way in to the handle?
Some knife wounds are just surface, just enough to draw blood but not enough to penetrate beyond several layers of skin

406 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:25:21pm

When I'm feeling all anxious and shit because people with knives are threatening me and I've been beaten to the ground by a bunch of peace activists, I often start bleeding spontaneously from my gut.

It's just a phobic reaction to theoretical violence.

407 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:25:43pm

re: #399 swamprat

His hand has a knife grab wound. They were trying to pull his pants down to hobble him, or they came down in the struggle. He pulled them up. The wound to his hand is not minor. Or he held his pants to staunch the blood.

I'd think the former 'cause I cannot imagine a commando not having his pants secure.

408 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:26:14pm

re: #406 Cato the Elder

When I'm feeling all anxious and shit because people with knives are threatening me and I've been beaten to the ground by a bunch of peace activists, I often start bleeding spontaneously from my gut.

It's just a phobic reaction to theoretical violence.

Pussy.

409 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:26:25pm

re: #399 swamprat

His hand has a knife grab wound. They were trying to pull his pants down to hobble him, or they came down in the struggle. He pulled them up. The wound to his hand is not minor. Or he held his pants to staunch the blood.

probably a good guess

410 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:27:00pm

re: #407 MandyManners

I'd think the former 'cause I cannot imagine a commando not having his pants secure.

Commandos are too cool for pants.

411 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:27:14pm

re: #403 MandyManners

How far up?

It was in the Google images. I saw a photo of some suspicious looking guy and "littlegreenfootballs..." underneath.

[Link: www.google.com...]

4th photo. At least that's how it come up on my end.

412 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:27:30pm

re: #407 MandyManners

I'd think the former 'cause I cannot imagine a commando not having his pants secure.

I think they cut his belt off. You can see the buckle stuck in one of the loops of his pants.

413 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:27:49pm

re: #406 Cato the Elder

When I'm feeling all anxious and shit because people with knives are threatening me and I've been beaten to the ground by a bunch of peace activists, I often start bleeding spontaneously from my gut.

It's just a phobic reaction to theoretical violence.

/let us know if your palms start bleeding for no apparent reason...

414 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:28:36pm

re: #405 sattv4u2

Not ALL knife woulds go to the hilt of the balde (thank God)

Ever cut yourself with a kitchen knife? Has it always gone all the way in to the handle?
Some knife wounds are just surface, just enough to draw blood but not enough to penetrate beyond several layers of skin

I didn't want to mean he was not injured by the knife, he probably was...my bad

415 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:28:45pm

re: #404 IsraelForever

It seems based on these pictures that Israeli soldiers are not mindless killing machines, but real living, breathing, bleeding human beings after all.

WELCOME!

416 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:29:45pm

re: #411 Gus 802

It was in the Google images. I saw a photo of some suspicious looking guy and "littlegreenfootballs..." underneath.

[Link: www.google.com...]

4th photo. At least that's how it come up on my end.

Another photo of Ken O'Keefe. That's him with his nonviolent facial tats showing us his "World Citizen" passport.

Seriously.

417 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:29:45pm

re: #410 Varek Raith

Commandos are too cool for pants.

Let's not get into the commando v. undies thing again.

418 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:29:47pm

re: #400 Rightwingconspirator

re: #400 Rightwingconspirator

I notice you did not rotate the picture at all; the pattern on the floor is at the same angle.

419 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:30:29pm

re: #417 MandyManners

Let's not get into the commando v. undies thing again.

I love getting into... oh, nevermind.

420 Racer X  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:30:30pm

re: #416 Cato the Elder

Another photo of Ken O'Keefe. That's him with his nonviolent facial tats showing us his "World Citizen" passport.

Seriously.

I haz no permissions.

421 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:30:54pm

re: #411 Gus 802

It was in the Google images. I saw a photo of some suspicious looking guy and "littlegreenfootballs..." underneath.

[Link: www.google.com...]

4th photo. At least that's how it come up on my end.

Are the fifth and sixth the creep in question?

422 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:31:24pm

re: #412 abaleh

I think they cut his belt off. You can see the buckle stuck in one of the loops of his pants.

Is it common to "pants" someone in a fight?

423 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:32:08pm

re: #422 MandyManners

Is it common to "pants" someone in a fight?

Yeah, but that tactic is usually abandoned after high school...

424 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:32:16pm

re: #422 MandyManners

Is it common to "pants" someone in a fight?

it's a way to shackle them

425 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:32:16pm

re: #416 Cato the Elder

Another photo of Ken O'Keefe. That's him with his nonviolent facial tats showing us his "World Citizen" passport.

Seriously.

I already saw the tats. Another one of him burning a tattoo. He also has his own web site. I think this guy is in love with himself.

426 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:32:37pm

re: #418 swamprat

Yes, just a crop. A crop that follows their rules. Heh.
Their rules are/were kind of interesting to me, until they broke them again.

427 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:32:37pm

re: #421 MandyManners

Are the fifth and sixth the creep in question?

Yep.

428 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:32:53pm

re: #401 abaleh

If you look at this picture, it looks like the same soldier, with the same guy holding him down. Notice the trickle of blood on the soldier's left hand, but there doesn't seem to be any on his abdomen, but the view is blocked by the terrorists knee.

That shot is weird. He's next to a wall with a jacket over him. Seems to me in the above pic, he has another wound on his chest with the blood coagulated. Which picture came first?

It also looks like his shirt was torn at the bottom. His clothing got torn, probably his pants, too, from the scuffle.

429 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:32:53pm

re: #422 MandyManners

Is it common to "pants" someone in a fight?

more likely an attempt to get his side arm...

430 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:32:57pm

re: #416 Cato the Elder

Another photo of Ken O'Keefe. That's him with his nonviolent facial tats showing us his "World Citizen" passport.

Seriously.

What is that thing?

431 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:34:06pm

re: #425 Gus 802

I already saw the tats. Another one of him burning a tattoo. He also has his own web site. I think this guy is in love with himself.

That's okay 'cause he's earnest. And, compassionate. And, caring.

432 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:35:08pm

re: #420 Racer X

I haz no permissions.

Weird. Comes up just fine for me...

Try the full page.

And note that the first photo in the group by the same Webshot member (scroll down) is a nice portrait of our old friend Noam Chomsky.

I wonder if Ken and Noam are buddies.

433 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:35:09pm

re: #431 MandyManners

That's okay 'cause he's earnest. And, compassionate. And, caring.

Hope this OK. Here's his very own website:

[Link: www.worldcitizen.uk.net...]

434 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:35:20pm

re: #412 abaleh

All his gear is gone. radio, web belt, pistol, ammunition, kevlar vest (I think) all of it. He has been at their mercy for enough time to do all that, usually a lot of gear for guys like that

435 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:35:27pm

We need Quincy.

436 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:35:51pm

re: #428 marjoriemoon

That shot is weird. He's next to a wall with a jacket over him. Seems to me in the above pic, he has another wound on his chest with the blood coagulated. Which picture came first?

It also looks like his shirt was torn at the bottom. His clothing got torn, probably his pants, too, from the scuffle.

It's not a jacket. Not sure what it's called in english but it's like a vest for equipment.

437 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:36:59pm

Shit!
That lightning strike was close!
BBIAB.

438 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:37:12pm

re: #436 abaleh

It's not a jacket. Not sure what it's called in english but it's like a vest for equipment.

Right. Like a flak jacket?

439 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:38:21pm

That knife may well have been taken from the marince, hence the casual grip on it. Speculations...

440 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:38:33pm

re: #438 marjoriemoon

Right. Like a flak jacket?

A flak jacket with lots of pockets for equipment.

441 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:38:37pm

PIMF
Marine

442 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:38:50pm

re: #433 Gus 802

Hope this OK. Here's his very own website:

[Link: www.worldcitizen.uk.net...]

There's a picture there of him burning his American passport before holding up his shiny new "World Citizen" one.

I'm pretty sure that means he's no longer a US citizen.

Is the "World Citizen" passport actually accepted anywhere in the world?

443 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:38:56pm

re: #437 Varek Raith

Shit!
That lightning strike was close!
BBIAB.

web gear...all purpose, over the shoulders clipped in the middle...for all your stuff

444 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:39:26pm

re: #433 Gus 802

His quote page has quotes from Malcolm X, Chomsky and Zinn.

445 abolitionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:39:59pm

re: #442 Cato the Elder

There's a picture there of him burning his American passport before holding up his shiny new "World Citizen" one.

I'm pretty sure that means he's no longer a US citizen.

Is the "World Citizen" passport actually accepted anywhere in the world?

Lobby of the UN, probably.

446 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:40:02pm

re: #433 Gus 802

Gosh, he's full of himself.

447 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:40:17pm

re: #442 Cato the Elder

There's a picture there of him burning his American passport before holding up his shiny new "World Citizen" one.

I'm pretty sure that means he's no longer a US citizen.

Is the "World Citizen" passport actually accepted anywhere in the world?

The World Passport is accepted at poser coffee shops in the Northwest. Buy 9 lattes get one free.

Nah, it's just some dumb fantasy of course.

448 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:40:21pm

re: #436 abaleh

It's not a jacket. Not sure what it's called in english but it's like a vest for equipment.

Flak jacket?

449 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:40:50pm

web gear
[Link: www.opticsplanet.net...]

450 ryannon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:40:51pm

re: #410 Varek Raith

Commandos are too cool for pants.

Real men don't wear pants.

451 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:40:52pm

re: #442 Cato the Elder

I think you're entitled to a nationality, and an empty symbolic act alone probably won't make him no longer a U.S. citizen, but if he's serious about it and gets a second citizenship, then I think the U.S. can declare his citizenship void.

452 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:41:21pm

re: #450 ryannon

Kilts?

453 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:41:24pm

re: #443 albusteve

web gear...all purpose, over the shoulders clipped in the middle...for all your stuff

that's it

454 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:42:11pm

re: #442 Cato the Elder

There's a picture there of him burning his American passport before holding up his shiny new "World Citizen" one.

I'm pretty sure that means he's no longer a US citizen.

Is the "World Citizen" passport actually accepted anywhere in the world?

He has a section on how to renounce citizenship.

Good riddance, Kenny.

455 Racer X  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:42:36pm

20 Worst Drinks in America 2010

Soft drinks, energy, beer, coffee, shakes.

456 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:43:37pm

re: #451 MagnaniomousCoward

I think you're entitled to a nationality, and an empty symbolic act alone probably won't make him no longer a U.S. citizen, but if he's serious about it and gets a second citizenship, then I think the U.S. can declare his citizenship void.

There's an actual procedure you can undertake to no longer be an American.

457 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:43:46pm

re: #455 Racer X

20 Worst Drinks in America 2010

Soft drinks, energy, beer, coffee, shakes.

the worst drink in the world is a Purple People Eater

458 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:45:48pm

re: #442 Cato the Elder

There's a picture there of him burning his American passport before holding up his shiny new "World Citizen" one.

I'm pretty sure that means he's no longer a US citizen.

Is the "World Citizen" passport actually accepted anywhere in the world?

Answered my own question: World Passport. 150 countries have stamped it with a visa at least once, giving it de facto recognition. The US is not one of them.

But only four recognize it on a regular, de jure basis: BURKINA FASO, ECUADOR, MAURITANIA, TANZANIA.

Kinda limiting.

Unless Ken kept back a second passport for entering the United States (illegal), or burned an old one (also illegal, because you're supposed to hand in the old one before getting a new one), he may have trouble crossing our borders.

Then again, I'm pretty sure he's happier abroad.

459 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:48:09pm

more images at the IHH site

460 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:48:20pm

re: #455 Racer X

20 Worst Drinks in America 2010

Soft drinks, energy, beer, coffee, shakes.

rain water & grain alcohol is NOT on that list...

461 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:48:31pm

From his biography:

As a Marine I spoke out openly about abuse of power by my "superiors" and as a consequence I paid a heavy price. I realised that honour and integrity were virtues which are often punished rather then rewarded and the Marines supplied me with my first serious taste of injustice. This experience taught me one central lesson, just how precious freedom is. Upon my discharge for the Marines I vowed to never relinquish my freedom again and to defend freedom without fear.

So, he was a fuck-up and got hung out to dry.

462 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:48:56pm

re: #459 abaleh

more images at the IHH site

really high res

463 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:49:06pm

re: #458 Cato the Elder

Answered my own question: World Passport. 150 countries have stamped it with a visa at least once, giving it de facto recognition. The US is not one of them.

But only four recognize it on a regular, de jure basis: BURKINA FASO, ECUADOR, MAURITANIA, TANZANIA.

Kinda limiting.

Unless Ken kept back a second passport for entering the United States (illegal), or burned an old one (also illegal, because you're supposed to hand in the old one before getting a new one), he may have trouble crossing our borders.

Then again, I'm pretty sure he's happier abroad.

I've seen his citizenship listed as British.

464 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:49:15pm

re: #451 MagnaniomousCoward

I think you're entitled to a nationality, and an empty symbolic act alone probably won't make him no longer a U.S. citizen, but if he's serious about it and gets a second citizenship, then I think the U.S. can declare his citizenship void.

Well, if has the balls he poses as having, all it takes to renounce your US citizenship is to state your solemn intention of doing so before any US consular officer in the world. You are instantly rid of your US citizenship. (Well, maybe you have to fill out a form.)

What citizenship you are "entitled" to after that is not a concern of US.

I'm willing to bet he has a Hamas passport, though.

465 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:49:48pm

re: #456 MandyManners

There's an actual procedure you can undertake to no longer be an American.

// a liberal arts degree?

466 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:50:36pm

re: #459 abaleh

more images at the IHH site

They sure do like photographs of bloodied Jews.

467 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:51:05pm

re: #461 MandyManners

From his biography:

So, he was a fuck-up and got hung out to dry.

What a genius. He was looking for "freedom" as a Marine.

468 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:51:53pm

The fifth images has that knife again, no blood.

469 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:52:55pm

re: #464 Cato the Elder

Well, if has the balls he poses as having, all it takes to renounce your US citizenship is to state your solemn intention of doing so before any US consular officer in the world. You are instantly rid of your US citizenship. (Well, maybe you have to fill out a form.)

What citizenship you are "entitled" to after that is not a concern of US.

I'm willing to bet he has a Hamas passport, though.

Abu Abbas wants to give him and his compatriots citizenship in the West Bank.

470 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:53:43pm

re: #467 Gus 802

What a genius. He was looking for "freedom" as a Marine.

I'm still scratching my head over that one.

I wonder what his life was like growing up.

471 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:54:01pm

Hey, anyone else feel like chipping in and buying Windsagio a "World Citizen" passport for his birthday?

It would really up his cred with me.

472 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:54:39pm

re: #471 Cato the Elder

Hey, anyone else feel like chipping in and buying Windsagio a "World Citizen" passport for his birthday?

It would really up his cred with me.

no, not even

473 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:54:50pm
474 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:56:06pm

re: #470 MandyManners

I'm still scratching my head over that one.

I wonder what his life was like growing up.

Quick guess? He was probably an only child. Always praised by his mothers but his dad would treat him with an iron hand. Spent a lot of time alone in his room looking at himself in mirrors.

/

475 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:56:11pm

German Jews announce their very own blockade-running flotilla.

The activists are frightened, she said, but not by Hamas.

"Jews have been to Gaza in the past, and they were treated in a friendly manner," Leitrer continued. "We have also talked with them recently, and they are very keen for us to come. We are frightened by what happened on the Marmara, but if you are committed to do good things, you have to act. People were also killed in the fight against fascism."

She rejected Israel's fears that weapons would be smuggled into Gaza on the aid boats.

"We haven't heard there were weapons on the last flotilla, and people were shot and killed there," she said. "We have contacted Israel figures and told them they are welcome to carry out searches on the boats, but we ask to be allowed to continue to Gaza. These are Gazan waters, and Israel must not control them."

Teh Stupid! Teh Tsunami of Stupid!

476 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:58:07pm

re: #475 Alouette

the mother of all stupid...

477 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:59:20pm

re: #475 Alouette

Well at least they'll probably be non-violent and just be diverted to an Israeli port and the aid delivered overland.

478 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:59:36pm

For someone who claims to be a world citizen, he likes to ignore an awful lot of repression.

479 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 12:59:45pm

re: #477 MagnaniomousCoward

Well at least they'll probably be non-violent and just be diverted to an Israeli port and the aid delivered overland.

Attention freaks on parade.

480 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:00:15pm

re: #474 Gus 802

Quick guess? He was probably an only child. Always praised by his mothers but his dad would treat him with an iron hand. Spent a lot of time alone in his room looking at himself in mirrors.

/

Good guess.

481 steve_davis  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:00:20pm

re: #312 Obdicut

I don't think it can be accurately described as such, though. It's a very subjective statement.

Israelis actually do die because of the actions of Hamas and other terrorists. Dominionists have a creepy, weird-ass attitude towards Jews and Israel, and there's crap like the 'purified' comment by whats-her-name, but they don't result in the actual deaths of the Jews. Whereas strengthening and supporting Hamas can directly result in the deaths of Jews.

I don't see any point in quantifying either as 'more virulent'. It's not a competition.

Yeah, Uhm, I just got back here after a break, and I've got to ask, What the Foxtrot?? I'm reasonably certain I haven't said anything remotely suggesting that left-wing anti-semitism is "better" than right-wing antisemitism. They both lead to the same place.

482 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:00:49pm

re: #477 MagnaniomousCoward

Well at least they'll probably be non-violent and just be diverted to an Israeli port and the aid delivered overland.

then bill them for the time and trouble

483 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:01:13pm

re: #479 Alouette

Problem is they can't get more attention than the Marmara guys unless they too take up arms against the boarding party - or you know, actually be creative and non-violent, but I sort of don't expect that of them.

484 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:02:06pm

re: #475 Alouette

German Jews announce their very own blockade-running flotilla.


Teh Stupid! Teh Tsunami of Stupid!

No weapons?!

485 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:02:57pm

re: #483 MagnaniomousCoward

Problem is they can't get more attention than the Marmara guys unless they too take up arms against the boarding party - or you know, actually be creative and non-violent, but I sort of don't expect that of them.

they could all dress up as team mascots and sail along to BananaRama blasting out across the waves....if not I will agree with you

486 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:03:16pm

re: #483 MagnaniomousCoward

Problem is they can't get more attention than the Marmara guys unless they too take up arms against the boarding party - or you know, actually be creative and non-violent, but I sort of don't expect that of them.

Get naked?

487 bluesky  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:03:45pm

Good Job, Charles

488 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:03:54pm

re: #484 MandyManners

No weapons?!

lethal rhetoric maybe

489 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:04:03pm

re: #486 MandyManners

Get naked?

No, please, no. They could dress up as Navi or something like that instead. That sort of thing is actually the right way to get attention.

490 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:04:24pm

re: #468 abaleh

The fifth images has that knife again, no blood.

Nice catch. High Res
pic before the stabbing. It looks like they also punched him in the face after he was captured too. Notice the blood on the walls as well as his attackers' clothes.

491 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:05:03pm

re: #485 albusteve

they could all dress up as team mascots and sail along to BananaRama blasting out across the waves...if not I will agree with you

Gay pride parade is this Friday I believe.

492 latitude51  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:05:57pm

Reuters made sure to keep one pair of sandals in the picture. Just another harmless hippie.

493 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:06:13pm

re: #488 albusteve

lethal rhetoric maybe

I was referring to the twit's assertion that she had not heard of any weapons on the MM.

494 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:06:30pm

This is kind of funny. More from the bobblehead Ken O'Keefe renouncing his citizenship:

Attachment for "Information for Determining U.S. Citizenship"
Part I
To see the questions I am answering below you need only open the 'Page 1' thumbnail above. I supply the rest of the pages for the benefit of those who seek to know more about renunciation.

6 .

a. The answer is no because the Lawful (de jure) Government of Hawaii is now in its transitional form. The office of immigration is now forming and full citizenship status for myself is expected by the early part of 2001. Hopefully I will have been naturalized by the time of my formal meeting with the U.S. representatives at the U.S. Consulate in Vancouver.

b. I have indeed sworn allegiance to the Lawful Government of Hawaii. This was done when my application for citizenship with this nation was filed in October 1999. This does not however mean that I have ill will towards the U.S. or its citizens. I am simply unwilling to be a citizen (participant) in the ongoing injustice that the U.S. representatives appear intent on continuing. In my opinion I am a true patriot standing firm with the virtues and beliefs of the founding fathers of the U.S. Should the time come where the U.S. became consistent with its stated principles of freedom and democracy I would consider repatriating to the country of my birth.

d. I served as the elections officer for the island of Oahu during the national elections for the offices of Noble and Representatives. I was responsible for maintaining the integrity of the ballots and counting the vote’s cast. Upon completion winners were announced and I submitted a written report of the election process and results. My report concluded that all aspects of this democratic election were legal and lawful on every count.

Sworn allegiance to the Lawful Government of Hawaii? On what planet? This faker was born in California. He's a natural born citizen. Haaretz is reporting him as having dual citizenship, "Ken O'Keefe, a 41-year-old citizen of the United States and Britain, was another activist named by the IDF."

495 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:06:33pm

re: #490 Killgore Trout

Nice catch. High Res
pic before the stabbing. It looks like they also punched him in the face after he was captured too. Notice the blood on the walls as well as his attackers' clothes.

walls on a ship are called bulkheads....true factoid

496 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:06:56pm

re: #489 MagnaniomousCoward

No, please, no. They could dress up as Navi or something like that instead. That sort of thing is actually the right way to get attention.

Oh, ick. I'd rather see them naked than see them dressed as Nazis.

497 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:06:58pm

re: #491 abaleh

They should go as a gay pride parade - except even if the Israelis let them into Gaza, they'll likely be stoned by the Palestinians once they get there.

498 Randall Gross  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:08:41pm

re: #490 Killgore Trout

Nice catch. High Res
pic before the stabbing. It looks like they also punched him in the face after he was captured too. Notice the blood on the walls as well as his attackers' clothes.

I'm wondering if the blood on the hand is from a defensive wound (trying to fend off knife or metal bar) or if it's from him holding a stab or other wound. In the latter photo with the blood on the pants and jockstrap it indicates that maybe he was trying to hold onto his pants with a bleeding hand, or perhaps that he has a stab wound down there. I am not certain.

499 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:08:56pm

re: #496 MandyManners

nononono, not nazis, that's a PR disaster. Navi as in the aliens from the movie Avatar.

500 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:09:54pm

re: #490 Killgore Trout

Nice catch. High Res
pic before the stabbing. It looks like they also punched him in the face after he was captured too. Notice the blood on the walls as well as his attackers' clothes.

I'm not a forensic expert, but I've seen them played on teevee.

That cut on the marine's hand in the second picture linked above is clearly a defense wound from a knife.

501 Racer X  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:10:07pm

From SixPackTech:

Saturday Night Blue Collar Brew Review –
Lagunitas Wilco Tango Foxtrot Ale

The beer poured up a very dark color but still see-through-able. The color was clear brown with a mixture of bubble sizes rising. The head came up a rich beige color and was tightly packed into the glass top. The aroma was that of malts and hops. Looks like we’re in for a real uvula zinger of a brew.

The first sip felt, as stated, robust to the confines of the mouth. The malts were there, but the whole gist of this sip was the hoppy whip-crack at the swallow. I have learned that certain types of hops can give a beer a grapefruit flavor and this one almost makes that taste. But not quite.

The robustity of this beer is along the lines of a high-gravity brew. I could tell just from the feel of the liquid in my mouth that there were a lot of malts used. And with an original gravity (O.G.) of 1.072, I could tell that tons of malts filled the cauldron during the brew process.

The hops are indeed the star of the show. Each sip gave that hopslap right to the tonsils and then disappearing in a few seconds. It wasn’t too hard to handle as the ginormous malt flavors sort of balanced out the taste with the hops.

Personally, I’m happy for me for getting over my unfounded phobia of highly hopped beers. Many of the ones I’ve tried have been quite tasty. This beer, with its 64 IBUs takes on some citrus flavor, although it’s hard to pinpoint which citrus it was. It closely resembled grapefruit, but not quite.

The deeper I dug into this beer, the nicer it tasted. A bit of discernible sweetness finally came forward and added to the mix. It was a veritable exercise for my taste buds. Crunches, bench presses and squats all wrapped up in the guise of sweet, malt and hoppy bitter. I don’t feel experienced enough to render an opinion as to whether this beer should be classified up there with the IPAs, but I can recognize and appreciate what large amounts of hops can do to the taste of a beer.

Lagunitas has hit another one out of the park. Their Brown Shugga’ was absolutely delectable and now this. An adventure in malts and hops not to be undertaken by the squeamish. This beer might be one that you should prepare for. Big malty taste, a size 12 shoe full of hops and a great flavor will take you away. The 7.83% ABV proves it. It’s a great beer to be experienced and remembered and I do believe that, once you try this beer, you won’t forget it.

502 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:10:10pm

re: #498 Thanos

I'm wondering if the blood on the hand is from a defensive wound (trying to fend off knife or metal bar) or if it's from him holding a stab or other wound. In the latter photo with the blood on the pants and jockstrap it indicates that maybe he was trying to hold onto his pants with a bleeding hand, or perhaps that he has a stab wound down there. I am not certain.

if they cut his belt off, that, to me, would be the best explanation

503 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:10:16pm

I think they are using that knife in picture 1 to cut his webbing off of him by the way. I don't know if the blood is from stabbing or beating - the IDF probably has detailed info about who suffered from what kinds of injuries.

504 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:10:34pm

re: #419 JasonA

I love getting into... oh, nevermind.

*WHACK*
/Mandy Mode
//I just had to. Really.

505 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:10:54pm

re: #500 Cato the Elder

I'm not a forensic expert, but I've seen them played on teevee.

That cut on the marine's hand in the second picture linked above is clearly a defense wound from a knife.

Here, I cropped that image and brightened it up.

Image: idfhostages.jpg

506 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:11:17pm

re: #503 MagnaniomousCoward

I think they are using that knife in picture 1 to cut his webbing off of him by the way. I don't know if the blood is from stabbing or beating - the IDF probably has detailed info about who suffered from what kinds of injuries.

I doubt they'd release any of it though.

507 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:11:42pm

Peace activists. Fail.

508 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:12:15pm

Have we stopped playing '100 angry speculations'?

If not I have one.

The Marine was stabbed in the back and they are hiding that by holding him face up.

They also urinated on the knife to clean the blood off.

The way the knife is being held is an obvious pose for the picture.

509 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:12:17pm

re: #506 Joo-LiZ

Maybe not, but they have released some details about their injuries already.

510 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:12:25pm

re: #499 MagnaniomousCoward

nononono, not nazis, that's a PR disaster. Navi as in the aliens from the movie Avatar.

Oh. I've never seen the movie. And, considering the subject, I automatically converted that "v" in Navi to "z" in Nazi. Sorry about that.

511 Racer X  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:12:32pm

Checking in on Saturn

The Big Picture.

512 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:13:35pm

At least 5 activists had terror ties, including our good friend, O'Keefe

At least five of the activsts aboard the 'Mavi Marmura' have links to terror organizations, the IDF announced on Sunday night.

The five were named as Fatima Mohammadi, Ken O'Keefe, Hassan Ansey, Hussein Orush and Ahmed Omemun. It was unclear whether the activists were specifically involved in the violent clashes with Navy commandos last week.

Specifically, the army said that O'Keefe, who tolds both US and UK passports, was trying to "reach Gaza in order to help Hamas."

The IDF also noted links to Viva Palestine, the IHH and al-Qaida.

Ha'aretz is more detailed

One of the activists exposed by the IDF was named as Iranian-born Fatima Mahmadi, a 31-year-old resident of the United States. According to the IDF, Mohammadi is a member of Viva Palestine, a movement that had tried bringing illegal electronic devices into the Gaza Strip.

Ken O'Keefe, a 41-year-old citizen of the United States and Britain, was another activist named by the IDF as having links to terrorist organizations. According to the IDF, O'Keefe is an extremist who hates Israel and whose "goal was to reach Gaza in order to help train and establish Hamas commando units."

The other activists singled out by the IDF were Hassan Iynasi, a 28-year-old Turkish citizen who belongs to an Islamic charity and regularly contributed financial assistance to Islamic Jihad; Hussein Urosh, a supporter of the Turkish IHH who was allegedly planning to help bring Al-Qaida militants from Turkey to Gaza; and Ahmad Umimon, a 51-year-old Moroccan-born resident of France and allegedly a member of Hamas.

513 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:13:38pm

re: #503 MagnaniomousCoward

I think they are using that knife in picture 1 to cut his webbing off of him by the way. I don't know if the blood is from stabbing or beating - the IDF probably has detailed info about who suffered from what kinds of injuries.

Which I doubt they'll ever share 'cause it's confidential.

I just hope he's healing quickly.

514 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:13:57pm

re: #505 Gus 802

Here, I cropped that image and brightened it up.

Image: idfhostages.jpg

There was more than one knife. That is an established fact.

515 Randall Gross  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:14:12pm

To those retweeting: it's better to add some hashtags when you retweet that are specific to this, that way it gets seen by more people watching on those hashtags. For this #Israel #Gaza #flotilla would all work.

516 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:14:53pm

re: #512 Joo-LiZ

My No. 6 has a list of the dead Turks.

517 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:15:06pm

the Marine is down, overwhelmed...
they took his gear and knifed him for whatever reason....
he's bleeding, subdued and his life is in danger...
I'll bet nearly everyone in these pics got popped...
if you came onto this scene armed, what would you do?
9-0

518 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:15:07pm

re: #508 b_sharp

I think you are about to get virtually beaten into a pulp, but that could just be speculation on my part.

519 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:15:09pm

re: #514 Cato the Elder

There was more than one knife. That is an established fact.

Oh yeah. They had their own and they no doubt took the knives from the IDF soldiers they took hostage.

520 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:15:47pm

re: #498 Thanos

I'm wondering if the blood on the hand is from a defensive wound (trying to fend off knife or metal bar) or if it's from him holding a stab or other wound. In the latter photo with the blood on the pants and jockstrap it indicates that maybe he was trying to hold onto his pants with a bleeding hand, or perhaps that he has a stab wound down there. I am not certain.

If you zoom in on this pic it pretty clear that it's a defensive wound at the bottom of his hand. Probably fighting off Mr Stabby McKnife

521 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:16:09pm

re: #517 albusteve

the Marine is down, overwhelmed...
they took his gear and knifed him for whatever reason...
he's bleeding, subdued and his life is in danger...
I'll bet nearly everyone in these pics got popped...
if you came onto this scene armed, what would you do?
9-0

I know what I'd do.

522 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:17:07pm

re: #517 albusteve

the Marine is down, overwhelmed...
they took his gear and knifed him for whatever reason...
he's bleeding, subdued and his life is in danger...
I'll bet nearly everyone in these pics got popped...
if you came onto this scene armed, what would you do?
9-0

But!

But!

But! There is no possible justification for shooting anyone that isn't also armed with a gun!

//

(Although, that is a true comment I saw at HuffPo

523 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:17:09pm

re: #520 Killgore Trout

If you zoom in on this pic it pretty clear that it's a defensive wound at the bottom of his hand. Probably fighting off Mr Stabby McKnife

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but could that be a peaceful crowbar at the top of the picture?

524 What, me worry?  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:17:43pm

re: #508 b_sharp

Have we stopped playing '100 angry speculations'?

If not I have one.

The Marine was stabbed in the back and they are hiding that by holding him face up.

They also urinated on the knife to clean the blood off.

The way the knife is being held is an obvious pose for the picture.

I think the above speculations are completely fair. You don't?

525 abaleh  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:17:58pm

I'm off to bed.
Good night.

526 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:18:08pm

re: #508 b_sharp

Have we stopped playing '100 angry speculations'?

If not I have one.

The Marine was stabbed in the back and they are hiding that by holding him face up.

They also urinated on the knife to clean the blood off.

The way the knife is being held is an obvious pose for the picture.

Does it bum you out that these guys photographed and published evidence showing them beating up disarmed men? They are proud of their actions, we're only helping them publisize it.

527 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:18:09pm

re: #520 Killgore Trout

If you zoom in on this pic it pretty clear that it's a defensive wound at the bottom of his hand. Probably fighting off Mr Stabby McKnife

for around forty bucks you can buy a pretty good pair of Kevlar gloves... if I was in that line of work I would invest in a pair.

528 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:18:49pm

re: #502 albusteve

Yep. These could be the after pics. Took off his vest, cut his belt to treat his wounds. But I think the IDF does not use serrated knives.

529 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:18:55pm

re: #508 b_sharp

Have we stopped playing '100 angry speculations'?

If not I have one.

The Marine was stabbed in the back and they are hiding that by holding him face up.

They also urinated on the knife to clean the blood off.

The way the knife is being held is an obvious pose for the picture.

Angry speculations? Seems to me that those so called peace activists fakers are (were) the angry ones.

530 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:19:41pm

re: #529 Gus 802

Angry speculations? Seems to me that those so called peace activists fakers are (were) the angry ones.

Also the ones who took the pictures, by the way.

531 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:19:42pm

re: #510 MandyManners

Well, there's plenty of protesters who think using Nazi dress and flags are a good idea, like Palestinians and Scientologists.

re: #527 brookly red

They had asbestos gloves for fastroping, but they had to shed those before they could handle their guns.

532 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:19:46pm

re: #525 abaleh

I'm off to bed.
Good night.

Sweet dreams!

533 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:19:56pm

re: #521 Gus 802

I know what I'd do.

check out the ammo in his web gear...75 rounds? a hundred? times three pistols?....quite a bit of firepower right there...an easy call to go live and take people down

534 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:20:38pm

re: #533 albusteve

Yeah, but they still hadn't been given the order to use live ammo.

535 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:20:41pm

TBH, it is not necessarily true that these new photos being released show an angry mob intent in killing the soldiers.

The mob had already beaten them up, and this is the aftermath, potentially with legitimate "activists" trying to defuse the situation, taking them hostage.

By the time these pictures were taken the decision to take hostages instead of killing them was already made.

We also know that there were groups with conflicting intentions aboard the vessel.

536 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:21:11pm

re: #505 Gus 802


Notice the restaining hold in that pic and the arafat scarf.

537 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:21:12pm

re: #535 Joo-LiZ

Very good point.

538 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:21:29pm

re: #535 Joo-LiZ

TBH, it is not necessarily true that these new photos being released show an angry mob intent in killing the soldiers.

The mob had already beaten them up, and this is the aftermath, potentially with legitimate "activists" trying to defuse the situation, taking them hostage.

By the time these pictures were taken the decision to take hostages instead of killing them was already made.

We also know that there were groups with conflicting intentions aboard the vessel.

I'm not being clear, I mean that the mob is taking the hostages, but we don't know that everyone visible in the photos was part of the initial mob, (that's what I mean in my second paragraph)

539 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:21:32pm

re: #528 swamprat

Yep. These could be the after pics. Took off his vest, cut his belt to treat his wounds. But I think the IDF does not use serrated knives.

don't know...it looks serrated to me, hard to tell

540 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:21:43pm

re: #536 swamprat

Notice the restaining hold in that pic and the arafat scarf.

Yep, I noticed that too.

541 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:21:50pm

re: #535 Joo-LiZ

TBH, it is not necessarily true that these new photos being released show an angry mob intent in killing the soldiers.

The mob had already beaten them up, and this is the aftermath, potentially with legitimate "activists" trying to defuse the situation, taking them hostage.

By the time these pictures were taken the decision to take hostages instead of killing them was already made.

We also know that there were groups with conflicting intentions aboard the vessel.

One thing that's been bugging me are the shoes. Would trained terrorists looking for a fight wear sandals?

542 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:22:26pm

B-sharp is a dull knife today.

543 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:22:36pm

re: #535 Joo-LiZ

TBH, it is not necessarily true that these new photos being released show an angry mob intent in killing the soldiers.

The mob had already beaten them up, and this is the aftermath, potentially with legitimate "activists" trying to defuse the situation, taking them hostage.

By the time these pictures were taken the decision to take hostages instead of killing them was already made.

We also know that there were groups with conflicting intentions aboard the vessel.

/I guess in the commotion it is hard to tell the killers from the kidnappers...

544 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:22:39pm

re: #541 MandyManners

One thing that's been bugging me are the shoes. Would trained terrorists looking for a fight wear sandals?

Probably one of the journalists looking for some great photos of the "weak" IDF.

545 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:23:50pm

re: #541 MandyManners

One thing that's been bugging me are the shoes. Would trained terrorists looking for a fight wear sandals?

no they would have something similar to the knife holders foot gear.

546 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:24:06pm

re: #543 brookly red

It sounds absurd, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Lots of these people sound like idiots though... I bet a good number think that attacking the soldiers is, actually, a legitimate form of self defense.

They are just ignorant of the law, and don't realize what kind of company they were keeping.

547 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:24:18pm

re: #542 Cato the Elder

B-sharp is a dull knife today.

agreed, really a piss poor attempt to make a point, if there was one

548 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:24:51pm

re: #541 MandyManners

Maybe not that guy, but some other guys are wearing gloves that look out of place for a peaceful bystander.

What you have here are non-combatants, casual combatants and premediated combatants all mixed up with each other. Many of the people on the ships didn't want to do any violence.

549 prairiefire  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:25:36pm

re: #517 albusteve

the Marine is down, overwhelmed...
they took his gear and knifed him for whatever reason...
he's bleeding, subdued and his life is in danger...
I'll bet nearly everyone in these pics got popped...
if you came onto this scene armed, what would you do?
9-0

Pop them.

550 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:26:16pm

re: #544 Joo-LiZ

Probably one of the journalists looking for some great photos of the "weak" IDF.

Hard to tell.

551 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:26:18pm

re: #518 Cato the Elder

I think you are about to get virtually beaten into a pulp, but that could just be speculation on my part.

Why, because I happened to mention the bull shit speculations going on here about a situation we know nothing about?

The wound is on his hand. It is probably a defensive wound against anything from a pipe to a knife, although it probably isn't the knife in the photo. That knife was probably taken from the marine and used to cut his pack off. It looks like he was being dragged up steps which probably pulled his pants down and since hand injuries spew blood like crazy the blood on his belt is probably from him trying to pull his pants back up. His eyes are focused on the man holding his wrist, not the knife, so he probably does not consider the man with the knife as big of a threat as the man holding him down. The blood on his face is not from being punched but from his hand. And yes, my interpretation could be wrong.


Instead of trying as hard as possible to make the scene fit as evil a situation as you would like to believe by injecting illogical and far-fetched speculations, use a bit of Occam's razor and come to the simplest conclusion.

You will note, or maybe you won't, your hate seems all consuming right now, that I have not justified the actions of the Turks, nor have I excused them for beating the shit out of defenceless marines.

552 abolitionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:26:38pm

re: #520 Killgore Trout

If you zoom in on this pic it pretty clear that it's a defensive wound at the bottom of his hand. Probably fighting off Mr Stabby McKnife

Anyone have a clue as to the nature of the round silver-colored device near the top of the pic? It has some markings on it. Ultrasound? Microwave?

553 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:26:53pm

re: #545 brookly red

no they would have something similar to the knife holders foot gear.

Yeah, I'd be afraid I'd stub my toe if I were a terrorist.

554 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:27:17pm

re: #548 MagnaniomousCoward

Maybe not that guy, but some other guys are wearing gloves that look out of place for a peaceful bystander.

What you have here are non-combatants, casual combatants and premediated combatants all mixed up with each other. Many of the people on the ships didn't want to do any violence.

A can of mixed nuts.

555 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:27:39pm

re: #546 Joo-LiZ

It sounds absurd, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Lots of these people sound like idiots though... I bet a good number think that attacking the soldiers is, actually, a legitimate form of self defense.

They are just ignorant of the law, and don't realize what kind of company they were keeping.

well that is probably true, but I have no sympathy... stupid people are a danger to them selves & others.

556 MandyManners  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:28:08pm

And, with that silly bit, I'm outta' here.

557 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:28:14pm

re: #551 b_sharp

Why, because I happened to mention the bull shit speculations going on here about a situation we know nothing about?

The wound is on his hand. It is probably a defensive wound against anything from a pipe to a knife, although it probably isn't the knife in the photo. That knife was probably taken from the marine and used to cut his pack off. It looks like he was being dragged up steps which probably pulled his pants down and since hand injuries spew blood like crazy the blood on his belt is probably from him trying to pull his pants back up. His eyes are focused on the man holding his wrist, not the knife, so he probably does not consider the man with the knife as big of a threat as the man holding him down. The blood on his face is not from being punched but from his hand. And yes, my interpretation could be wrong.

Instead of trying as hard as possible to make the scene fit as evil a situation as you would like to believe by injecting illogical and far-fetched speculations, use a bit of Occam's razor and come to the simplest conclusion.

You will note, or maybe you won't, your hate seems all consuming right now, that I have not justified the actions of the Turks, nor have I excused them for beating the shit out of defenceless marines.

Here, I'll make it simple then.

Mavi Marmara Terrorists: Bad Guys
IDF Boarding Party: Good Guys

558 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:28:22pm

re: #551 b_sharp

Why, because I happened to mention the bull shit speculations going on here about a situation we know nothing about?

The wound is on his hand. It is probably a defensive wound against anything from a pipe to a knife, although it probably isn't the knife in the photo. That knife was probably taken from the marine and used to cut his pack off. It looks like he was being dragged up steps which probably pulled his pants down and since hand injuries spew blood like crazy the blood on his belt is probably from him trying to pull his pants back up. His eyes are focused on the man holding his wrist, not the knife, so he probably does not consider the man with the knife as big of a threat as the man holding him down. The blood on his face is not from being punched but from his hand. And yes, my interpretation could be wrong.

Instead of trying as hard as possible to make the scene fit as evil a situation as you would like to believe by injecting illogical and far-fetched speculations, use a bit of Occam's razor and come to the simplest conclusion.

You will note, or maybe you won't, your hate seems all consuming right now, that I have not justified the actions of the Turks, nor have I excused them for beating the shit out of defenceless marines.

and now you present your own bullshit speculation...nice play dumb ass...I want an apology

559 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:28:23pm

re: #528 swamprat

Yep. These could be the after pics. Took off his vest, cut his belt to treat his wounds. But I think the IDF does not use serrated knives.

Dumb post. I think these pics were intended to use for ransom, and to keep as trophies.

560 Soap_Man  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:28:30pm

re: #544 Joo-LiZ

Probably one of the journalists looking for some great photos of the "weak" IDF.

From a reporter friend of mine (paraphrasing): "You can always judge a journalist by the shoes he or she is wearing. Good reporters wear shoes that are useful in field work. Like sneakers or boots. Dress shoes or sandals means the reporter never actually goes anywhere and just sits behind a desk all day."

561 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:28:46pm

re: #551 b_sharp

You don't get a knife cut on your hand from a pipe.

As for the evil here, it is not coming from me.

You just made my scrollover list, you simple shit.

562 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:28:54pm

re: #548 MagnaniomousCoward

Maybe not that guy, but some other guys are wearing gloves that look out of place for a peaceful bystander.

What you have here are non-combatants, casual combatants and premediated combatants all mixed up with each other. Many of the people on the ships didn't want to do any violence.

just provide support to those who did...

563 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:29:04pm

re: #558 albusteve

and now you present your own bullshit speculation...nice play dumb ass...I want an apology

If by apology you mean a pizza...
:)

564 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:29:19pm

re: #552 abolitionist

Anyone have a clue as to the nature of the round silver-colored device near the top of the pic? It has some markings on it. Ultrasound? Microwave?

Gas mask. They had heaps of them.

565 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:29:46pm

re: #550 MandyManners

Hard to tell.

I don't know. I really think that while there was a coordinated effort by the group of IHH mercenaries to attack the IDF and force an incident, many other activists less violently-inclined (or should I say who are more naive but well-intentioned -- useful idiots), were duped into playing some sort of role.

It helps the IHH folks by adding to the confusion and delivering more mouthpieces for their propaganda.

Some well-known lefty in a random community somewhere says "I was just trying to treat his wounds!" -- and maybe was -- not realizing that his IHH Turkish fellow travels give not a whit about the soldiers wounds and were actively putting his life in harms way.

566 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:30:03pm

re: #522 Joo-LiZ

But!

But!

But! There is no possible justification for shooting anyone that isn't also armed with a gun!

//

(Although, that is a true comment I saw at HuffPo

You defend yourself with whatever you have on hand that gives you a winning edge. You defend yourself until it becomes unnecessary.

However, beating, stabbing, or shooting, a defenseless person, no longer an active danger, is beyond what most people would consider acceptable.

567 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:30:16pm

re: #551 b_sharp

Oh, and if my hate were all-consuming, you would now be a smoking cinder sitting in front of a melted monitor.

568 abolitionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:30:40pm

re: #564 MagnaniomousCoward

Gas mask. They had heaps of them.

Thanks.

569 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:31:42pm

re: #562 brookly red

just provide support to those who did...

Well I'm disappointed that the renunciation of the violence from the peaceful part of the protesters isn't stronger. I guess they hate Israel more than they love peace and non-violence.

570 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:32:02pm

re: #561 Cato the Elder

You don't get a knife cut on your hand from a pipe.

As for the evil here, it is not coming from me.

You just made my scrollover list, you simple shit.

I'm beginning to really like you, Cato.
/In a platonic, LGF sorta way.

571 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:32:06pm

re: #560 Soap_Man

From a reporter friend of mine (paraphrasing): "You can always judge a journalist by the shoes he or she is wearing. Good reporters wear shoes that are useful in field work. Like sneakers or boots. Dress shoes or sandals means the reporter never actually goes anywhere and just sits behind a desk all day."

Who ever said anything about them being good reporters? Just some flotilla fool who wants a photo of all the action.

If you look at some of the other daylife photos, you can clearly see some camera men in the mob

572 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:32:52pm

Anyone who can bring me, Mandy Manners, and Killgore Trout together in harmonious downdingage obviously has something going besides just pointless trolling.

573 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:32:53pm

re: #570 Gang of One

I'm beginning to really like you, Cato.
/In a platonic, LGF sorta way.

if you don't...you become a smoking cinder

574 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:33:18pm

re: #569 MagnaniomousCoward

Well I'm disappointed that the renunciation of the violence from the peaceful part of the protesters isn't stronger. I guess they hate Israel more than they love peace and non-violence.

yes supporting terrorists should kinda tell you something....

575 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:33:44pm

re: #551 b_sharp

My, my, we are angry today!

You missed my speculation that the belt might have been removed for treatment?
Post 528

576 Stonemason  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:34:25pm
“It is not acceptable to repeatedly violate international law. It is not acceptable to shoot and kill innocent civilians. It is not acceptable to commit an act of aggression against another U.S. ally. It is not acceptable to continue a blockade which denies humanitarian relief. It is not acceptable to heighten tensions in a region while the United States continues to put so much blood and treasure on the line.”

Dennis Kucinich enters the fray...

I heard the interview on the BBC but couldn't find it on the BBC site...Dennis and Luap Nor have some things in common it seems.

577 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:34:26pm

re: #573 albusteve

if you don't...you become a smoking cinder

LOL!
/Monitor is not melted!!

578 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:34:36pm

re: #574 brookly red

yes supporting terrorists should kinda tell you something...

violence is in their mind...gutless idealists
spit

579 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:34:46pm

re: #572 Cato the Elder

Anyone who can bring me, Mandy Manners, and Killgore Trout together in harmonious downdingage obviously has something going besides just pointless trolling.

Shall I find a pathetic planet to rename and blow up?

580 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:34:52pm

You ever notice how the Howard Zinn school of thought always attempts to promote an impartial view of military actions yet they always invariably take the side of the enemy?

Oh noz! I used the word enemy!

581 Soap_Man  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:35:38pm

re: #571 Joo-LiZ

Who ever said anything about them being good reporters? Just some flotilla fool who wants a photo of all the action.

If you look at some of the other daylife photos, you can clearly see some camera men in the mob

That wasn't me commenting on whether or not the people were professional — or even amateur — journalists or photographers. Your comment just reminded me of that quote.

582 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:36:03pm

re: #577 Gang of One

LOL!
/Monitor is not melted!!

yes, what doesn't happen may be profound, but no making out

583 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:36:04pm

re: #579 Varek Raith

Shall I find a pathetic planet to rename and blow up?

Yes, please. Call it B-Flat Minor.

584 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:36:09pm

re: #526 Killgore Trout

Does it bum you out that these guys photographed and published evidence showing them beating up disarmed men? They are proud of their actions, we're only helping them publisize it.

Killgore, your comment about a defensive wound makes sense. The majority of the speculation at the top of the thread is Tea Party worthy. Why look for reality when fantasy speculation fits your revenge sensibilities better?

Assuming I support the actions of the men holding the marine is BS. Basing this assumption on my reticence to take part in a fully fledged hate feedback loop is even bigger BS.

585 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:37:27pm

re: #529 Gus 802

Angry speculations? Seems to me that those so called peace activists fakers are (were) the angry ones.

I have no doubt that is true. However, that does not reduce the anger induced comments here, does it?

586 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:37:45pm

Uh oh. Someone pulled the Tea Party Card™.

587 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:37:50pm

From the Yossi Klein HaLevi WSJ article yesterday

Now, Israel's international status is perhaps even worse than it was in the 1970s. Anti-Israeli animus then was largely a result of political and economic motives. Today, however misguided, the moral outrage against Israel is real.

By appealing to the world's conscience, Israel's jihadist enemies have learned how to turn their relative powerlessness into a strategic asset. Israel is being increasingly forced to choose between self-defense and acceptance by the nations. The likely result will be a growing sense of empowerment among jihadists, and a growing sense of desperation among Israelis.

I don't think we have fully appreciated the importance of this fact.

They have managed to make their case to so many, that the anti-Israel emotions, moral indignation, and general outrage is 100% genuine. The core group who are truly hyprocritical, disingenuous and support the terror of Hamas are shrouded by a massive wall of those who truly care but cannot get the right facts.

It is a scary situation -- pure mob mentality. How do you attack this mentality?

588 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:38:42pm

re: #585 b_sharp

I have no doubt that is true. However, that does not reduce the anger induced comments here, does it?

What could we possible have to be angry about?

589 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:38:45pm

re: #535 Joo-LiZ

TBH, it is not necessarily true that these new photos being released show an angry mob intent in killing the soldiers.

The mob had already beaten them up, and this is the aftermath, potentially with legitimate "activists" trying to defuse the situation, taking them hostage.

By the time these pictures were taken the decision to take hostages instead of killing them was already made.

We also know that there were groups with conflicting intentions aboard the vessel.

Thanks you. Finally somebody who can take a step back and analyse the situation.

590 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:39:03pm

re: #586 Gus 802

Uh oh. Someone pulled the Tea Party Card™.

and as usual in a completely irrelevant self serving way.

591 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:39:12pm

re: #581 Soap_Man

That wasn't me commenting on whether or not the people were professional — or even amateur — journalists or photographers. Your comment just reminded me of that quote.

My bad.

592 prairiefire  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:39:22pm

re: #584 b_sharp

B_sharp, they are graphic pictures eliciting emotional reactions.
Of course, no one on this board was present when the events happened. We all have a reaction to the photos, plus an opinion.

593 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:40:10pm

re: #585 b_sharp

I have no doubt that is true. However, that does not reduce the anger induced comments here, does it?

fuck you..mind your own business if you can't deal with my anger

594 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:40:37pm

re: #584 b_sharp


Assuming I support the actions of the men holding the marine is BS. Basing this assumption on my reticence to take part in a fully fledged hate feedback loop is even bigger BS.

Honestly, how is this a "hate feedback loop"? We are discussing a photo that was manipulated for political purposes, and we are calling out the hate coming from the manipulators and their apologists. Is this unclear to you, my friend?

595 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:40:43pm

re: #552 abolitionist

Anyone have a clue as to the nature of the round silver-colored device near the top of the pic? It has some markings on it. Ultrasound? Microwave?

It's a gas mask.

596 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:40:51pm

re: #585 b_sharp

I have no doubt that is true. However, that does not reduce the anger induced comments here, does it?

Uh, it was an anger inducing event. The biased reaction by the leftist (yes I said leftist) European media has also been anger inducing. The reaction by the biased United Nations has also been anger inducing. They these idiot are also siding with Hamas and Fatah by default is also anger inducing.

597 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:40:58pm

re: #588 Cato the Elder

What could we possible have to be angry about?

now we're angry Tea Partiers....hahaha!
what a dope

598 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:41:03pm

re: #587 Joo-LiZ
Try Commentary's suggestion.

599 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:41:18pm

re: #541 MandyManners

One thing that's been bugging me are the shoes. Would trained terrorists looking for a fight wear sandals?

No they wouldn't.

The boat was full of people but is was not a monolithic group, either in intent or action.

I'm sure there were trained fighters on board with one goal, violence, in mind. But there were not likely to be 600 of them.

600 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:42:08pm

re: #542 Cato the Elder

B-sharp is a dull knife today.

Brilliant rejoinder.

601 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:42:20pm

re: #585 b_sharp

I have no doubt that is true. However, that does not reduce the anger induced comments here, does it?

Are we not allowed to be angry at this blatant manipulation?

602 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:42:22pm

re: #597 albusteve

now we're angry Tea Partiers...hahaha!
what a dope

That's it! We lose! We get angry in defense of the IDF and we're Teabaggers!

/

603 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:42:48pm

re: #600 b_sharp

Brilliant rejoinder.

you deserved less...

604 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:43:10pm

re: #547 albusteve

agreed, really a piss poor attempt to make a point, if there was one

This from someone that never has a point to make.

605 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:43:57pm

re: #551 b_sharp

You are a complete idiot. The pics the activists took and published themselves shows them dragging an unarmed and more or less unharmed hostage up a flight of stairs and beating/stabbing them, taking off their body armor and dragging them back down the stairs bleeding. It's very easy to piece together the sequence from the pics the activists published on their website.

606 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:44:11pm

re: #583 Cato the Elder

Yes, please. Call it B-Flat Minor.

Done.
Charging Non-Violent Peace Laser.

607 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:44:24pm

Oh get a room guys, I'm neither amused nor informed by your back-and-forth. Can we get back to the pictures or something interesting OT

608 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:44:45pm

re: #599 b_sharp

No they wouldn't.

The boat was full of people but is was not a monolithic group, either in intent or action.

I'm sure there were trained fighters on board with one goal, violence, in mind. But there were not likely to be 600 of them.

And those people were played.

609 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:45:12pm

re: #606 Varek Raith

Done.
Charging Non-Violent Peace Laser.

Wait...
That's no moon...

610 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:45:16pm

re: #598 PhillyPretzel
I forgot the link. I am sorry. [Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

611 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:45:26pm

Several people got on those boats.
Most expected to wave flags and flowers and get arrested.
Others, though, were willing to put the "wavers" in danger, take hostages from the IDF, and get as many killed as possible. On both sides. Good propaganda either way.
I wonder how long it will take for Turkey to realize that it was used like a piece of toilet paper?

And Egypt's land blockade of Palestine's other border goes unmentioned.

612 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:45:42pm

Somebody's cranky because the activists implicated themselves.

613 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:45:50pm

re: #604 b_sharp

This from someone that never has a point to make.

that's your illusion...so here's a point....
you are a pin headed asshole, presumptuous enough post how people should feel about this incident, rather than lurk and shut the fuck up, you need to post your negative blather and indict me as an angry Tea Partier....you are beyond dense

614 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:46:05pm

re: #611 swamprat

Several people got on those boats.
Most expected to wave flags and flowers and get arrested.
Others, though, were willing to put the "wavers" in danger, take hostages from the IDF, and get as many killed as possible. On both sides. Good propaganda either way.
I wonder how long it will take for Turkey to realize that it was used like a piece of toilet paper?

And Egypt's land blockade of Palestine's other border goes unmentioned.

IMO, Turkey orchestrated it.

615 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:46:15pm

re: #557 Gus 802

Here, I'll make it simple then.

Mavi Marmara Terrorists: Bad Guys
IDF Boarding Party: Good Guys

I'll finish this for you.

LGF right wingers: Blind feeding frenzy of anger.

616 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:46:49pm

re: #609 JasonA

Wait...
That's no moon...

It's a Peace Station.
At least, that's what the fool Hans Blix was told during the last "inspection".

618 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:47:18pm

re: #615 b_sharp

I'll finish this for you.

LGF right wingers: Blind feeding frenzy of anger.

have a nice life dude...

619 Gang of One  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:47:21pm

re: #615 b_sharp

I'll finish this for you.

LGF right wingers: Blind feeding frenzy of anger.

Go. A. Way.

620 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:48:04pm

re: #615 b_sharp

I'll finish this for you.

LGF right wingers: Blind feeding frenzy of anger.

I'm a left-winger and I can't really fault them for what they've said on the matter. The activists knew damn well that this ship wouldn't be allowed through to Gaza.

621 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:48:13pm

re: #615 b_sharp

I'll finish this for you.

LGF right wingers: Blind feeding frenzy of anger.

If Cato's a right winger, I'm Obi Wan.

622 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:48:31pm

re: #615 b_sharp

I'll finish this for you.

LGF right wingers: Blind feeding frenzy of anger.

don't forget bigots, racists, and Nazis!
I'm really disappointed in your game....it's almost impossible to piss off KT, buy you even fell that far....loser

623 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:49:04pm

re: #621 Varek Raith

If Cato's a right winger, I'm Obi Wan.

I sense a presence I haven't felt in...

624 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:49:04pm

re: #589 b_sharp

Thanks you. Finally somebody who can take a step back and analyse the situation.

We've been doing that here all week. Haven't seen much from you, though.

Yet you come in here with an angry post about supposedly angry posts, and call bullshit on us.

That link that you approve was already posted at least once.

If you think what you have here is a bunch of diehard haters who never question anything done by Israel, you might want to check yourself and maybe see the opposite.

625 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:49:06pm

re: #615 b_sharp

I'll finish this for you.

LGF right wingers: Blind feeding frenzy of anger.

I'm not a right winger.

Pay attention.

626 abolitionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:49:11pm

re: #620 JasonA

I'm a left-winger and I can't really fault them for what they've said on the matter. The activists knew damn well that this ship wouldn't be allowed through to Gaza.

...without an inspection.

627 Stonemason  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:49:19pm

re: #607 MagnaniomousCoward

I kinda thought the fact that a former candidate for the nomination to be a presidential candidate spewing the 'international waters' bilge and calling the boarding "a pre-planned attack" was pretty interesting...

628 Soap_Man  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:49:24pm

re: #606 Varek Raith

Done.
Charging Non-Violent Peace Laser.

Here comes my nerd mode. In one of the Star Wars books, a captive Han Solo is talking to the engineer who designed the Death Star. She explains that she was told the laser would be used for mining purposes, like destroying a large and dense asteroid or planet to mine the valuable minerals in the core.

Solo: "Even with that explanation, how could you think it was peaceful? They named it the 'Death Star'."

629 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:50:09pm

re: #626 abolitionist

...without an inspection.

Hm. I'm pretty sure the ship was always going to be diverted to Ashdod, no?

630 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:50:39pm

re: #628 Soap_Man

Here comes my nerd mode. In one of the Star Wars books, a captive Han Solo is talking to the engineer who designed the Death Star. She explains that she was told the laser would be used for mining purposes, like destroying a large and dense asteroid or planet to mine the valuable minerals in the core.

Solo: "Even with that explanation, how could you think it was peaceful? They named it the 'Death Star'."

Hehehe.
*Jots that down for when Blix returns*

631 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:51:03pm

re: #628 Soap_Man

Here comes my nerd mode. In one of the Star Wars books, a captive Han Solo is talking to the engineer who designed the Death Star. She explains that she was told the laser would be used for mining purposes, like destroying a large and dense asteroid or planet to mine the valuable minerals in the core.

Solo: "Even with that explanation, how could you think it was peaceful? They named it the 'Death Star'."

Meh. Kevin J Anderson's Star Wars books felt so flat after Timothy Zahn's work.

632 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:51:18pm

re: #610 PhillyPretzel

I forgot the link. I am sorry. [Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

Yes, I've read that one. There is another good one up today with the transcript of Elliot Abrams on Fareed Zakarian GPS.

He does a pretty good job, but I dunno if he made the points needed to get through to the "other side". I hope he did.

Problem is, Israel hasn't yet resigned itself to the Islamist lurch of the Turkish government. The Israeli government is doing its best to maintain relations, even in a hostile environment, and because of that they can't go on the offensive as Noah Pollak suggests.

re: #629 JasonA

Hm. I'm pretty sure the ship was always going to be diverted to Ashdod, no?

Although as one of the options for "loosening" the blockade that the US proposed and Israel is considering, they may do the inspection in international waters then let the ship through.

633 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:51:45pm

re: #576 Stonemason

Dennis Kucinich enters the fray...

I heard the interview on the BBC but couldn't find it on the BBC site...Dennis and Luap Nor have some things in common it seems.

Loony Denny. You can always count on him to get his logic bass ackwards.

634 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:52:26pm

re: #558 albusteve

and now you present your own bullshit speculation...nice play dumb ass...I want an apology

Ever notice how your comments are always full of vitriolic name calling but never any logic?

My speculation was acknowledged as a speculation that follows an analysis of the pictures in as dispassionate and logical manner as possible. The speculations at the top of the thread are the opposite, they are inserting meaning into the evidence in order to support a preconceived notion.

There have been others, later in the thread, not so willing to impose their own desires on to the evidence.

635 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:53:22pm

re: #620 JasonA

I'm a left-winger and I can't really fault them for what they've said on the matter. The activists knew damn well that this ship wouldn't be allowed through to Gaza.

Speculation on whether or not the knife was used, whether he was stabbed right then, is just pointless. It's neither good nor bad.

However, this is a man lying on his back, with someone standing above him holding a knife, and another man holding him in a restrain position. No one is 'tending' to him. His face is full of fear. There's blood on his hand from a defensive wound or from pressing his hand to another wound on his body.

I don't understand how anyone can look at this picture and not see a man who was viciously attacked.

I am so damn angry at the people who only gave them paintball guns, but not nearly as angry as I am at the people who attacked them. Who prepared to attack them by cutting up their lifeboats to make weapons.

I guess this counts as an angry post. But there is no one on earth who would call me a 'right-winger', and, as much as I believe many of the 'activists' are saps, that doesn't stop me being angry at them for being saps.

And this has torn my last bit of support for Kucinich away. I've defended him in the past. I won't bother to do so in the future.

636 Bagua  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:54:00pm

re: #71 Charles

Fixed now.

And notice that someone popped up immediately to accuse me of being in the pay of AIPAC.

You take a lot of flak for your brave stance exposing anti-Israel lies Charles, I admire your courage and deeply appreciate your work.

637 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:54:16pm

re: #631 JasonA

Meh. Kevin J Anderson's Star Wars books felt so flat after Timothy Zahn's work.

Agreed. The Sun Crusher was a great superweapon, but Zahn did a much better job of fully drawing characters. Grand Admiral Tharwn was an excellent antagonist: Someone you could oppose but not really hate.

638 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:55:05pm

re: #561 Cato the Elder

You don't get a knife cut on your hand from a pipe.

As for the evil here, it is not coming from me.

You just made my scrollover list, you simple shit.

All you see is blood. Where is the evidence for the cause? You will also note I included a potential knife wound, you insufferably hateful coot.

639 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:55:40pm

re: #634 b_sharp

Ever notice how your comments are always full of vitriolic name calling but never any logic?

My speculation was acknowledged as a speculation that follows an analysis of the pictures in as dispassionate and logical manner as possible. The speculations at the top of the thread are the opposite, they are inserting meaning into the evidence in order to support a preconceived notion.

There have been others, later in the thread, not so willing to impose their own desires on to the evidence.

I just don't care for this very sort of windy tripe...the more you type, the more stupid you sound...frankly I don't give a shit about your point of view

640 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:55:46pm

re: #599 b_sharp

No they wouldn't.

The boat was full of people but is was not a monolithic group, either in intent or action.

I'm sure there were trained fighters on board with one goal, violence, in mind. But there were not likely to be 600 of them.

You were not looking for a rejoinder.

641 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:56:20pm

re: #634 b_sharp

Guys, I'd cut b_sharp some slack on this one. He's not trying to excuse the actions of the Islamists, but is trying to analyze the photo. He's not an ass like Dr Cordell.

642 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:56:48pm

re: #635 Obdicut


I am so damn angry at the people who only gave them paintball guns, but not nearly as angry as I am at the people who attacked them. Who prepared to attack them by cutting up their lifeboats to make weapons.

TBH again, I don't see how not having paintball guns could have helped.

It may have made things worse.

At least this way, the weapons grabbed by the mercenaries were only pistols, and it is clear the soldiers had no choice.

What would have happened with actual automatic weapons? The same soldiers who dropped down would have been lynched, and the same soldiers who pulled out their pistols and defended their platoonmates would have opened fire with a different weapon, only it would have looked worse on Israel.

643 abolitionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:56:57pm

re: #629 JasonA

Hm. I'm pretty sure the ship was always going to be diverted to Ashdod, no?

Don't know. Some level of inspection at sea reduces vulnerability to Israel's ports to some kinds of terrorist attacks.

644 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:57:03pm

re: #638 b_sharp

Now I have to downding you, for flinging a nasty insult at Cato.

645 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:57:09pm

re: #567 Cato the Elder

Oh, and if my hate were all-consuming, you would now be a smoking cinder sitting in front of a melted monitor.

You aren't that powerful.

646 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:57:16pm

re: #641 Dark_Falcon

Guys, I'd cut b_sharp some slack on this one. He's not trying to excuse the actions of the Islamists, but is trying to analyze the photo. He's not an ass like Dr Cordell.

yes he is and don't tell me what to think or post

647 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:57:37pm

re: #637 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. The Sun Crusher was a great superweapon, but Zahn did a much better job of fully drawing characters. Grand Admiral Tharwn was an excellent antagonist: Someone you could oppose but not really hate.

Thrawn was pretty good for a Star Wars character. Admiral Daala? Not so much. And I was hoping Star Wars was past the "super-weapon" trope, too.

648 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:58:08pm

re: #599 b_sharp

No they wouldn't.

The boat was full of people but is was not a monolithic group, either in intent or action.

I'm sure there were trained fighters on board with one goal, violence, in mind. But there were not likely to be 600 of them.

As you have just proved, it only takes one asshole to start a fight.

649 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:58:21pm

re: #642 Joo-LiZ

You're right. I'm not a military expert. I have no idea what would have had to have been done to make this go smoothly.

I'm just expressing my anger that it didn't. Maybe it couldn't have. But I feel for the commandos.

650 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:58:25pm

re: #572 Cato the Elder

Anyone who can bring me, Mandy Manners, and Killgore Trout together in harmonious downdingage obviously has something going besides just pointless trolling.

Get over yourself Cato. You know bloody well I'm not trolling.

651 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:58:35pm

re: #643 abolitionist

It's difficult to x-ray the cargo while it's still in the ship - you pretty much have to inspect it going on or off the ship. I guess they could reload at sea with some kind of floating barge deal...

652 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:59:28pm

re: #575 swamprat

My, my, we are angry today!

You missed my speculation that the belt might have been removed for treatment?
Post 528

No I didn't. I included you in the group trying to make sense of the picture rather than imposing meaning.

653 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:59:35pm

re: #605 Killgore Trout
I updinged you because I believe that is the first time I have seen you show rancor. And it was absolutely justified.
I did not see the activists' website, but your "cliffnotes" version answers some
questions.

654 tradewind  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:59:41pm

re: #315 Charles
Hmmmm, a blackberry?
Could it be.......
POTUS?

655 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 1:59:54pm

re: #650 b_sharp

You're right to offer alternative ideas and warn about taking speculation too far, but you're going about it all in the wrong way by talking down to people and accusing them of being right-wingers when they aren't.

656 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:00:00pm

Well I just had Chuck E Cheese pizza for the first time....and last time. Blech!

657 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:00:07pm

re: #649 Obdicut

You're right. I'm not a military expert. I have no idea what would have had to have been done to make this go smoothly.

I'm just expressing my anger that it didn't. Maybe it couldn't have. But I feel for the commandos.

Agreed.

I don't really know what other way this could have been done to avoid the incident. Part of me really believes there may not have been another way. These mercenaries were determined (paid) to make a scene.

The problem with the global reaction, not the action itself.

658 prairiefire  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:00:17pm

re: #637 Dark_Falcon

Hi, are you feeling better?

660 Soap_Man  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:00:53pm

re: #647 JasonA

Thrawn was pretty good for a Star Wars character. Admiral Daala? Not so much. And I was hoping Star Wars was past the "super-weapon" trope, too.

That was another idea that made Thrawn so interesting; his opposition to super weapons. I don't remember the exact line, but he went on this little rant about the Emperor's hubris:

"For that one Death Star, he could have built 100,000 star destroyers." Or some other number. I don't recall.

661 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:01:06pm

re: #654 tradewind

On the Reuters network? I think not.

662 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:01:20pm

re: #638 b_sharp

All you see is blood. Where is the evidence for the cause? You will also note I included a potential knife wound, you insufferably hateful coot.

Coming from you, the vainglorious arrogant atheist schmuck with the biggest overestimate of his own intelligence on this board, that's a love note.

663 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:01:26pm

re: #652 b_sharp

Do bear in mind that the only reason we're even discussing this is because Reuters cropped the damn knife out. We see that as an effort to promote the "peace activist" narrative. That line of thought is doing Israel some damage at the moment.

664 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:02:29pm

re: #659 Gus 802

Palestinians celebrating the fall of the twin towers on 911


[Video]

I think it was on HuffPo there was a comment where someone wrote "You liar! I bet you even believe the lies that Palestinians cheered on 9/11, when really it was the 5 Israeli Mossad who were cheering!" -- as if they were mutually exclusive, in the mildest possible critique of that accusation.

665 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:03:32pm

666?

666 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:03:44pm

darn...

667 tradewind  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:04:22pm

re: #650 b_sharp
The point is that Israel has both detractors and advocates running the full gamut of the political spectrum, a fact that seems to have escaped you thus far.

668 brownbagj  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:04:26pm

re: #656 NJDhockeyfan

I tried to warn you...

669 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:04:40pm

re: #660 Soap_Man

That was another idea that made Thrawn so interesting; his opposition to super weapons. I don't remember the exact line, but he went on this little rant about the Emperor's hubris:

"For that one Death Star, he could have built 100,000 star destroyers." Or some other number. I don't recall.

Heh. Yeah, I do recall something like that. Thrawn was certainly more practical in his approach. Mind you, the whole super-weapon idea doesn't have to be dead. I remember KotOR using it to good effect where it made sense.

670 tradewind  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:05:59pm

re: #661 MagnaniomousCoward
Ya never know.

671 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:06:00pm

re: #669 JasonA

Heh. Yeah, I do recall something like that. Thrawn was certainly more practical in his approach. Mind you, the whole super-weapon idea doesn't have to be dead. I remember KotOR using it to good effect where it made sense.

I'm rebuilding the Star Forge, btw...

672 tradewind  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:06:35pm

re: #666 brookly red
What'd you do to land in that juju?

673 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:06:57pm

re: #664 Joo-LiZ

I think it was on HuffPo there was a comment where someone wrote "You liar! I bet you even believe the lies that Palestinians cheered on 9/11, when really it was the 5 Israeli Mossad who were cheering!" -- as if they were mutually exclusive, in the mildest possible critique of that accusation.

OK, and maybe it was an old video. Don't really need any of that given the daily incitement perpetrated by the PA and Hamas leadership in Gaza as noted by the Israeli MFA.

674 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:07:03pm

re: #671 Varek Raith

I'm rebuilding the Star Forge, btw...

I call shotgun.

675 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:07:18pm

re: #658 prairiefire

Hi, are you feeling better?

Yes, I am. My cough is down and the meds are containing the acid reflux.

676 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:08:14pm

Elder of Ziyon has an excellent piece on the "Pirate" trope

The piracy-accusation bases itself on the pirate act of attacking civilian ships in international waters. (but pirates do not not operate under the auspices of a government)

And then there is this Craig Murray who is being quoted all over the place. He argues that it is illegal to attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters and the event should be regarded as an act of illegal warfare. (Oddly, he seems terrified at the idea that all those damn zionists are visiting his blog)

Based on the above accusations I can only conclude that the Dutch:

The Dutch navy seized 1.32 tonnes of cocaine from a ship off the Dutch Antilles islands, the defence ministry said Saturday, a day after France announced a record bust in the region. The Dutch frigate Van Speijk discovered the cocaine wrapped in 66 individual bags on board a Panamanian-flagged commercial vessel on May 24, some 56 kilometres (35 miles) from the island of Aruba. The navy arrested the five crew Honduran crew and with Panama's permission sent them to the United States where the fight against drug trafficking in the region is being centralised, a navy spokesperson told AFP.

the Spanish and English:

In 2006, the Spanish and the British navies operating in international waters seized a record volume of cocaine departing from African ports, with a total of 9,852 kg seized on 5 ships, compared to 3,700 kg on one ship in 2005 (+ 166%). All seizures took place in international waters close to the Western African coasts, as shown on the map on the next page. [.pdf!]

and the French are pirates or war criminals as well:

A barrage of naval gunfire in the Atlantic, authorised by the French and Cambodian prime ministers, may have finally sunk one of the most controversial maritime developments of recent years - the "super flags of convenience" shipping registers run by tiny states in return for hard cash.

The Winner, a 32-year-old merchant ship flying the Cambodian flag, is due to arrive under military guard in the port of Brest tomorrow after being seized by the French navy, reportedly with two tonnes of cocaine on board.

But where is the outrage?

All of the 3 incidents are sourced on EoZs blog.

677 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:08:23pm

re: #671 Varek Raith

I'm rebuilding the Star Forge, btw...

You don't have the technology to rebuild it. You can't!

Unless the Star Forge itself is telling you how...

678 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:08:34pm

re: #615 b_sharp

Everything OK at home?
Take a breath.
I am serious. Are we really that far off base, to you?
We have not decried the general Arab population, we have not yelled about Islam.
We have directed our ire towards those violent folk who got several people killed.
Make your point. Do you object to some of the items being banned? Do you have a relative involved with this?
What's up?

679 tradewind  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:09:15pm

re: #656 NJDhockeyfan
Don't put anything in your mouth from Chuck E. Cheese. Leave that to the crumb crunchers who, when they toss their cookies, won't ask why.
The place is a petri dish./

680 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:09:19pm

re: #672 tradewind

What'd you do to land in that juju?

it is what it is...

681 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:10:00pm

re: #669 JasonA

Heh. Yeah, I do recall something like that. Thrawn was certainly more practical in his approach. Mind you, the whole super-weapon idea doesn't have to be dead. I remember KotOR using it to good effect where it made sense.

That was the key to Thrawn: He was ambitious, but not a megalomaniac. He also understood how to get the best out of people. He didn't just make negative examples: He also set examples to follow by promoting those who had shown real ability.

682 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:10:23pm

re: #662 Cato the Elder

Vainglorious?

Nice.

Great word... never heard it before.

683 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:11:10pm

re: re: #508 b_sharp

Get over yourself Cato. You know bloody well I'm not trolling.

Really?

Your first post:

Have we stopped playing '100 angry speculations'?

If not I have one.

The Marine was stabbed in the back and they are hiding that by holding him face up.

They also urinated on the knife to clean the blood off.

The way the knife is being held is an obvious pose for the picture.

Let the people decide. Trolling, or a reasonable comment?

Besides, B-flat, I said you were obviously not just simply trolling.

I think you have something less noble in mind.

684 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:11:27pm

re: #656 NJDhockeyfan

Well I just had Chuck E Cheese pizza for the first time...and last time. Blech!

My daughter works for the Cheeze. Don't fuck with the Cheeze.

685 tradewind  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:12:57pm

re: #684 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
She should get hazard pay. Kids love it, though.
Birthday party heaven, for a small window.

686 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:13:10pm

re: #668 brownbagj

I tried to warn you...

I was hungry. If there is a next time I will try the wings or a sandwich.

688 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:17:58pm

re: #676 Joo-LiZ

Elder of Ziyon has an excellent piece on the "Pirate" trope

All of the 3 incidents are sourced on EoZs blog.

I'd also argue that the very fact that it was an Israeli Naval force nullifies the idea of piracy. Pirates are those who do not act on behalf of a recognized government. If a navy intercepts and seizes a ship, you can still think it wrong, but you cannot call it piracy.

689 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:18:49pm

Ha'aretz and JPost are reporting that a number of Navy reserve officers have demanded an independent and external inquiry into the raid. Both papers make it sound as though these officers are questioning the legitimacy of the action, but according to DEBKA, which is generally less reliable but seems to have much more detail, the officers are really after an operational/diplomatic probe:

The angry captains focused on four glaring blunders:
1. The defense minister Ehud Barak's order for the firearms carried by the commandos to be difficult for them to reach severely reduced their ability to defend themselves against attack.
2. The Air Force helicopter landings of commandos on the Turkish ship's deck was supposed to have been synchronized with the boats landing smaller units by sea. But the helicopters arrived 15 minutes late, leaving the smaller unit stranded and few enough to encourage the dozens of armed men aboard to believe they could be overcome and the ship rid of the Israeli interception force.
3. The IDF only used a part of its electronic warfare capabilities for jamming signals to and from the six ships and recording events aboard, including the Israeli takeover.
4. The most fundamental blunder was the persistence of security and intelligence decision-makers in trusting their Turkish counterparts' continued cooperation in the face of the overt hostility of the Ankara government headed by Recep Erdogan. This trust blinded them to the ambush the Turks had rigged aboard the Marmara for the Israeli military.

In their letter to prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu, the protesters, holding the ranks of major and captain, held the defense minister, transport minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer and chief of staff Lt. Gen. Gaby Ashkenazy chiefly responsible for allowing the commandos walk into the trap which resulted in 9 Turkish killed and six Israeli soldiers injured. They argue the IDF could have come up with more efficient methods for keeping the flotilla from breaching the Gaza blockade instead of an operation which was a tactical and military fiasco. The failure to assign blame where it belonged amounted to contempt for the IDF's tradition of holding the superior policy-making and command levels to account for failures.

I must say, it is an entirely different perspective that comes out from Ha'aretz and JPost compared to the details DEBKA provides, but they are not contradictory.

690 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:19:09pm

re: #687 Gus 802

Organizer of "Freedom Flotilla," in a Hamas Rally in Gaza

Oh, my. "Anyone who does not stand alongside Palestine will be defeated."

Wait...what? Where did this mysterious knife wound in my gut suddenly appear from?

691 abolitionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:19:52pm

re: #687 Gus 802

Organizer of "Freedom Flotilla," in a Hamas Rally in Gaza


[Video]

Bulent Yildirim - Turkey's Transportation Minster to Iran.

692 prairiefire  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:20:17pm

re: #675 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I am. My cough is down and the meds are containing the acid reflux.

Oh, GERD. I've got that. Raising the top 1/3 of my mattress up by a couple of inches with pillows underneath it helps a Lot.

693 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:20:30pm

re: #688 Dark_Falcon

I'd also argue that the very fact that it was an Israeli Naval force nullifies the idea of piracy. Pirates are those who do not act on behalf of a recognized government. If a navy intercepts and seizes a ship, you can still think it wrong, but you cannot call it piracy.

How dare you use logic and reas-- reas--- I can hardly muster the courage to say it -- reasoning!
/

That fact doesn't change the claims being made that it is "state piracy"

694 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:20:46pm

re: #687 Gus 802

Organizer of "Freedom Flotilla," in a Hamas Rally in Gaza


[Video]

That would clarify things a great deal, if you could get the LSM to report it.

695 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:20:48pm

Has anyone seen any pictures of the activists wearing those humanitarian bullet-proof vests?

696 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:22:24pm

re: #695 JasonA

Has anyone seen any pictures of the activists wearing those humanitarian bullet-proof vests?

no, but neither have I seen pictures if the 9 headshots

697 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:22:42pm

re: #688 Dark_Falcon

I'd also argue that the very fact that it was an Israeli Naval force nullifies the idea of piracy. Pirates are those who do not act on behalf of a recognized government. If a navy intercepts and seizes a ship, you can still think it wrong, but you cannot call it piracy.

Unless, of course, you consider Israel to be an outlaw state.

But nobody thinks that, do they?

698 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:23:22pm

re: #694 Dark_Falcon

That would clarify things a great deal, if you could get the LSM to report it.

They seem to be stuck on that Van der Sloot murder story. Plus, this would take some critical thinking on the part of the viewers so they would have to get a refresher course on who or what Hamas is.

699 Randall Gross  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:23:33pm

re: #587 Joo-LiZ

From the Yossi Klein HaLevi WSJ article yesterday

I don't think we have fully appreciated the importance of this fact.

They have managed to make their case to so many, that the anti-Israel emotions, moral indignation, and general outrage is 100% genuine. The core group who are truly hyprocritical, disingenuous and support the terror of Hamas are shrouded by a massive wall of those who truly care but cannot get the right facts.

It is a scary situation -- pure mob mentality. How do you attack this mentality?

You have to persistently put the truth out. Tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, next decade. Don't stop, keep persisting with the facts, and just the facts. Over time they win, in the heat of the moment they lose.

700 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:23:49pm

Trivia...

CHUCK Fuckin' CONNERS (the Rifleman) played for the Celtics...

roger murdock played for the lakers.

701 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:24:55pm

Reuters has now published an uncropped version of the picure which includes the knife.
The cropped version is still posted here with no explanation.

702 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:25:09pm

re: #508 b_sharp

Be an asshole much?

703 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:26:22pm

re: #701 Killgore Trout

Reuters has now published an uncropped version of the picure which includes the knife.
The cropped version is still posted here with no explanation.

heh, the heats on

704 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:26:26pm

re: #671 Varek Raith

I'm rebuilding the Star Forge, btw...

Pffft, that's amateur move, upgrade to Vogon poetry and you won't be disappointed.

705 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:26:45pm

re: #701 Killgore Trout

When I changed browser tabs, it was like looking at the flashing .gif of doom from Rathergate.

706 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:27:03pm

re: #700 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Trivia...

CHUCK Fuckin' CONNERS (the Rifleman) played for the Celtics...

roger murdock played for the lakers.

I knew that about Conners...never heard of the other guy

707 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:27:06pm

re: #701 Killgore Trout

Caption... "Happy passengers play 'Mumblety-peg' on deck."

708 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:27:15pm

re: #701 Killgore Trout

Reuters has now published an uncropped version of the picure which includes the knife.
The cropped version is still posted here with no explanation.

LGF Statistics: 7 visits from Reuters today. You think Charles might have gotten one of them to update it?

709 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:28:26pm

re: #706 albusteve

I knew that about Conners...never heard of the other guy

Roger Murdock

710 abolitionist  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:28:47pm

BARRY RUBIN: IHH FOUNDER BÜLENT YILDIRIM ADMITS FLOTILLA OF THE HUNS WAS NO HUMANITARIAN EFFORT BUT A JIHADIST ATTACK.......
Barry Rubin: Bülent Yildirim, the main organizer of the Gaza Flotilla, explained at a Hamas rally in Gaza that the operation was no humanitarian effort but part of a global Jihad to overthrow governments and install Islamist dictatorships. He made no secret of that fact, as shown in the MEMRI translation and video.

711 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:28:52pm

re: #693 Joo-LiZ

How dare you use logic and reas-- reas--- I can hardly muster the courage to say it -- reasoning!
/

That fact doesn't change the claims being made that it is "state piracy"

Nation-States cannot, by definition, commit piracy. They can unlawfully seize a ship, but they cannot be considered pirates. The difference matters a great deal:

A Marine captured attempting to seize a ship is a Lawful Combatant, and is entitled to Prisoner Of War status. A someone doing the same thing while not in the service of a state is a Pirate. Pirates are not only Unlawful Combatants, but are also considered Enemies of the Human Race, a term that dates back to Roman times. [tips hat to Cato]

712 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:28:56pm

Lol! They cropped out the knife again....
Here is the pic from the Peace Activist website showing the knife at the top of the screen.

In the Reuters version there's no knife.

713 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:29:13pm

re: #708 Joo-LiZ

LGF Statistics: 7 visits from Reuters today. You think Charles might have gotten one of them to update it?

of course...they read LGF and do NOT want to get into a brawl with Charles

714 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:29:40pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

They are serial croppers...

715 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:29:50pm

re: #709 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Roger Murdock

clever

716 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:29:53pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

I guess they would not be interested in my version...
///

717 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:30:02pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

Lol! They cropped out the knife again...
Here is the pic from the Peace Activist website showing the knife at the top of the screen.

In the Reuters version there's no knife.

Should I make another page for that just in case they change it before Charles gets back?

718 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:30:06pm

re: #714 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
LOL

719 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:30:23pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

Lol! They cropped out the knife again...
Here is the pic from the Peace Activist website showing the knife at the top of the screen.

In the Reuters version there's no knife.

What about this one?

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

720 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:30:49pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

Two times? Geez. It's hard to believe that's a coincidence.

721 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:31:00pm

re: #711 Dark_Falcon

Nation-States cannot, by definition, commit piracy. They can unlawfully seize a ship, but they cannot be considered pirates. The difference matters a great deal:

A Marine captured attempting to seize a ship is a Lawful Combatant, and is entitled to Prisoner Of War status. A someone doing the same thing while not in the service of a state is a Pirate. Pirates are not only Unlawful Combatants, but are also considered Enemies of the Human Race, a term that dates back to Roman times. [tips hat to Cato]

it's called privateering when sanctioned by the state...but you knew that

722 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:31:19pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

Lol! They cropped out the knife again...
Here is the pic from the Peace Activist website showing the knife at the top of the screen.

In the Reuters version there's no knife.

Fuckers.

723 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:31:24pm

re: #692 prairiefire

Oh, GERD. I've got that. Raising the top 1/3 of my mattress up by a couple of inches with pillows underneath it helps a Lot.

nexium.

724 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:31:29pm

B-sharp's massively helpful opening post on an I/P thread from the other day:

"You know, the smell of sulfur in the air makes me think someone left the Hell Mouth open again."

Nope...no trollage there.

Dum-dee-dum-dee-dee, don't mind little ol' me.

725 prairiefire  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:31:45pm

re: #723 brookly red

nexium.

Aciphex, for me.

726 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:32:11pm

re: #719 Gus 802

What about this one?

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

Yeah, they have 2 versions of that pic posted now, one with knife and one without.

727 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:32:33pm

re: #724 Cato the Elder

B-sharp's massively helpful opening post on an I/P thread from the other day:

Nope...no trollage there.

Dum-dee-dum-dee-dee, don't mind little ol' me.

he's a tool...a socket

728 Nimed  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:33:19pm

re: #688 Dark_Falcon

I'd also argue that the very fact that it was an Israeli Naval force nullifies the idea of piracy. Pirates are those who do not act on behalf of a recognized government. If a navy intercepts and seizes a ship, you can still think it wrong, but you cannot call it piracy.

Ding ding ding!

Did the Israeli Defense Forces Commandos Commit “Piracy”? Nope.

Let’s go to the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea, Article 101:

Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;


729 _remembertonyc  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:33:35pm

good afternoon, Lizards. has there been any reaction to the Pope's latest analysis of religion in the mideast?

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

730 MJ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:34:10pm

re: #632 Joo-LiZ

"Problem is, Israel hasn't yet resigned itself to the Islamist lurch of the Turkish government. The Israeli government is doing its best to maintain relations, even in a hostile environment, and because of that they can't go on the offensive as Noah Pollak suggests."


Joo-LiZ, the more serious problem is that this administration continues to turn a blind eye to what Turkey has become. As Barry Rubin noted in

Turkish Regime Changes Sides, West Averts Eyes

...Unnoticed in the hoopla and hysteria surrounding this incident was the Turkish government’s insulting treatment of the United States, as an errant schoolboy to be bullied and punished. President Barack Obama seems to have swallowed this meekly.Davutoglu said, “We expect the United States to show solidarity with us….I am not very happy with the statements from the United States yesterday.”

Quickly, U.S statements came into line. One might ask why the United States should show solidarity with a regime that organized a massive and aggressive operation on behalf of Hamas and had just stabbed it in the back by cooking up a deal with Iran to sabotage sanctions against Israel, an ally which had supported U.S. policies and made several tough concessions at Obama’s request.

Yet such is what has become normal in these times and under this U.S. government. The message has thus been sent: The Turkish government can do anything it wants and its American counterpart won't even squeak in protest. Indeed, in his interview with Larry King, Obama went out of his way--in a situation where it was totally unnecessary--to praise Turkey and urge that it play a central role!

He said: "I think Turkey can have a positive voice in this whole process once we've worked through this tragedy. And bring everybody together to figure out how can we get a two-state solution where the Palestinians and Israelis can live side by side in peace and security." Presumably, the second sentence was meant to say that the United States would "bring everybody together" but it could be read as if he were referring to Turkey.

[Link: rubinreports.blogspot.com...]

731 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:34:23pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

Lol! They cropped out the knife again...
Here is the pic from the Peace Activist website showing the knife at the top of the screen.

In the Reuters version there's no knife.

Good catch.

Reuters, your Bunglawala is showing.

732 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:35:41pm

re: #728 Nimed


the whole argument is wrong, stupid, and irrelevant...it's a waste of time to confront every crackpot

733 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:35:48pm

re: #726 Killgore Trout

Yeah, they have 2 versions of that pic posted now, one with knife and one without.

If you'd like to see the whole truth please click A.
If you'd like to continue that these ships were filled with peace-loving hippies and unicorns, please click B...

734 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:36:13pm

re: #708 Joo-LiZ

LGF Statistics: 7 visits from Reuters today. You think Charles might have gotten one of them to update it?

There were only 2 visits right before I had bad pizza.

Heh. Word got out LGF is on to them.

735 Randall Gross  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:36:37pm

re: #717 Killgore Trout

Couldn't hurt KT

736 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:37:04pm

Line dropped. 2nd time this week.

737 Randall Gross  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:38:18pm

re: #730 MJ

I hate it when people pimp Rubin's blog here. He has tundra tabloids in his sidebar, no LGF, and comes here to pimp his blog everyday.

738 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:38:42pm

100 in ABQ again...like a micro wave out there in the sun....
but I've donned my rodeo sombrero for some shade...at 5k ft that shit cuts through you like a laser beam

739 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:38:52pm

Iran offers escort for Gaza ships
By ASSOCIATED PRESS AND JPOST.COM STAFF
06/06/2010 18:02

Supreme leader Khamenei offers military protection for activists.

740 Nimed  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:39:17pm

re: #728 Nimed


Which, of course, doesn't stop a lot of people who should know better to keep repeating the piracy accusation:

[Link: opiniojuris.org...]
Yet this hasn’t stopped the following random assortment of Israel critics from continuing to use the stupid piracy charge:

The Foreign Minister of Turkey

Libya’s U.N. Ambassador

Spanish Member of the European Parliament

The Nation

Pat Buchanan

Bill Press

The Canadian Union of Postal Workers (!?!?)

I could go on, but I won’t. Aside from demonstrating the limits of this blog’s readership the flagrant stupidity of this “piracy” meme reflects a remarkable lack of seriousness among (some of) Israel’s critics about the legality of the raid and the blockade. So next time you hear the Foreign Minister of Turkey decrying Israel’s violations of international law, for instance, you can feel confident he actually cares nothing at all about international law, and is just looking for a convenient slogan to slam Israel.


The accusation of piracy is so unambiguously absurd that it's not a stretch to assume bad faith (not just ignorance or bias) from any person or media outlet that keeps repeating it.

741 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:39:41pm

re: #730 MJ

[Link: rubinreports.blogspot.com...]

some people would like to think our lack of support has no consequences...

742 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:40:29pm

re: #739 Gus 802

Iran offers escort for Gaza ships
By ASSOCIATED PRESS AND JPOST.COM STAFF
06/06/2010 18:02

Supreme leader Khamenei offers military protection for activists.

cool!....if they want to be humiliated by the IDF, let 'em

743 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:41:40pm

re: #729 _remembertonyc

good afternoon, Lizards. has there been any reaction to the Pope's latest analysis of religion in the mideast?

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

No doubt it's hard.

I know nothing else about it.

744 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:42:18pm

re: #739 Gus 802

Iran offers escort for Gaza ships
By ASSOCIATED PRESS AND JPOST.COM STAFF
06/06/2010 18:02

Supreme leader Khamenei offers military protection for activists.

they smell fear... this is going to end up with (more) people dying.

745 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:43:03pm

re: #742 albusteve

cool!...if they want to be humiliated by the IDF, let 'em

That would make for the 2nd military threat aimed at Israel this week. Yep, I'm considering both of these offers, the first from Turkey and now from Iran, a military threat. You think the US will respond? And warning from the State Department due?

Or is that the sound of crickets I hear stirring in the background.

746 MJ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:44:29pm

re: #737 Thanos

I hate it when people pimp Rubin's blog here. He has tundra tabloids in his sidebar, no LGF, and comes here to pimp his blog everyday.

He linked to LGF today.
No one is "pimping" anything. He's an important analyst.

747 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:44:44pm

re: #745 Gus 802

That would make for the 2nd military threat aimed at Israel this week. Yep, I'm considering both of these offers, the first from Turkey and now from Iran, a military threat. You think the US will respond? And warning from the State Department due?

Or is that the sound of crickets I hear stirring in the background.

it's over BOs head by a long ways....stuff like this takes iron fisted commitment and he lacks that...let's see the beef BO

748 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:45:00pm

re: #745 Gus 802

That would make for the 2nd military threat aimed at Israel this week. Yep, I'm considering both of these offers, the first from Turkey and now from Iran, a military threat. You think the US will respond? And warning from the State Department due?

Or is that the sound of crickets I hear stirring in the background.

it is worse I fear... if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

749 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:46:14pm

re: #745 Gus 802

We don't have a mutual defense treaty with Israel.

I wish we did. I think it would help to cut down on a lot of this nonsense.

750 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:46:38pm

I just saw a commercial for the new Karate Kid... I can't quite get over how "Hollywood"-y it is now.

It is now Chinese, instead of Japanese.

I just heard Jackie Chan telling the kid: "The only way to stop them [the bullies] is to face them... I will teach you!"

That's the exact opposite of the originals. Mr. Miyagi was completely against violence, and even refused to train Daniel when it became clear he just wanted to fight the bullies.

751 Bagua  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:46:41pm

re: #605 Killgore Trout

You are a complete idiot. The pics the activists took and published themselves shows them dragging an unarmed and more or less unharmed hostage up a flight of stairs and beating/stabbing them, taking off their body armor and dragging them back down the stairs bleeding. It's very easy to piece together the sequence from the pics the activists published on their website.

How harsh of us to be angry at that.

752 _remembertonyc  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:46:58pm

re: #743 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No doubt it's hard.

I know nothing else about it.

one of the things he said was the the palestinian/Israeli conflict was making it harder for Christians in the mideast. I have a hard time with that one. It's as if Christians in the mideast had a swell time practicing their religion freely in places like Egypt and saudi arabia. he said some other things that were true, but that one gave me the creeps.

753 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:47:21pm

re: #747 albusteve

re: #748 brookly red

re: #749 Obdicut

I was about to say a show of US Navy firepower would be in order right about now. Just one fleet would do the trick.

754 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:47:43pm

re: #749 Obdicut

We don't have a mutual defense treaty with Israel.

I wish we did. I think it would help to cut down on a lot of this nonsense.

so what?...if it goes to guns the US better be in the fight, or I'm departing for Jamaica....paper treaties?, make one up then

755 captdiggs  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:48:20pm

All of this goes far beyond the danger to Israel.
This is about the loss of Turkey as a moderating force in the middle east.
Erdogan has swung out of the western sphere and fully into the arms of Iran and the Islamist view.
That a NATO nation is now leading the charge for terrorists and against Israel is a disaster for any emerging democracy in the middle east as well as the only existing one, Israel.

756 Bagua  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:48:24pm

re: #615 b_sharp

I'll finish this for you.

LGF right wingers: Blind feeding frenzy of anger.

Lol, you forgot to mention hate.

757 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:48:44pm

re: #753 Gus 802

re: #748 brookly red

re: #749 Obdicut

I was about to say a show of US Navy firepower would be in order right about now. Just one fleet would do the trick.

monger!

758 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:49:12pm

re: #749 Obdicut

We don't have a mutual defense treaty with Israel.

I wish we did. I think it would help to cut down on a lot of this nonsense.

I said long ago both China and India would love access to a Mediterranean port... if we don't step up someone else will.

759 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:49:51pm

re: #757 albusteve

monger!

6th Fleet!

760 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:50:48pm

re: #753 Gus 802

re: #748 brookly red

re: #749 Obdicut

I was about to say a show of US Navy firepower would be in order right about now. Just one fleet would do the trick.

just one frigate would do the trick but I see our current administration as unwilling.

761 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:51:55pm

re: #758 brookly red

I said long ago both China and India would love access to a Mediterranean port... if we don't step up someone else will.

yeah?, the Med is a terrible place to fight a surface war....but I doubt they realize that since China hasn't sailed a deep water boat out of the site of shore yet

762 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:52:00pm

Ok, it took me while because one of the pics needed to be resized and I had a few technical difficulties but here's the new page: Fauxtography: Reuters Crops Out Peace Activist Weapon Again

763 Bagua  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:52:15pm

re: #638 b_sharp

All you see is blood. Where is the evidence for the cause? You will also note I included a potential knife wound, you insufferably hateful coot.

My bad, ignore #756, you did mention "hate".

764 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:52:59pm

re: #762 Killgore Trout

Ok, it took me while because one of the pics needed to be resized and I had a few technical difficulties but here's the new page: Fauxtography: Reuters Crops Out Peace Activist Weapon Again

nice title

765 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:53:30pm

re: #760 brookly red

just one frigate would do the trick but I see our current administration as unwilling.

COMDESRON SIX ZERO

I know. Won't happen.

766 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:55:08pm

re: #765 Gus 802

COMDESRON SIX ZERO

I know. Won't happen.

It is no coincidence that this is happening now, the bad guys see weakness and that is that.

767 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:55:21pm

re: #764 albusteve

nice title

Thanks. I try to resist getting overly clever with titles, it's too easy to get overly complicated, hysterical or goofy.

768 Nimed  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:56:14pm

re: #750 Joo-LiZ

I just saw a commercial for the new Karate Kid... I can't quite get over how "Hollywood"-y it is now.

It is now Chinese, instead of Japanese.

I just heard Jackie Chan telling the kid: "The only way to stop them [the bullies] is to face them... I will teach you!"

That's the exact opposite of the originals. Mr. Miyagi was completely against violence, and even refused to train Daniel when it became clear he just wanted to fight the bullies.

Dude, this here's a revisionist version of Karate Kid -- from the point of view of the bully. It's great!

769 Randall Gross  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:56:23pm

re: #746 MJ

He linked to LGF today.
No one is "pimping" anything. He's an important analyst.

He likes Eurofascists in his sidebar and doesn't have Charles in his sidebar, gets hat tips from the Barron at GoV. TT is a site that has posted anti-LGF articles. He's an important analyst for a certain crowd, I understand that.


Meanwhile the shrieking harpy is saying Obama's tied to the Flotilla (Ayers! Dohrn! etc.) I expect Rubin to get there as well.

770 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:57:08pm

It's fine to be skeptical about Reuters's possible agenda. Once.

When they crop out the same thing, a knife, in two different pictures, we have either an editorial decision or a "freedom flotilla" sympathizer at work. Or both.

Just ask yourselves this question: If there's a picture of a crazed Israeli nutjob attacking Palestinian Authority police with a knife in his hand, are we gonna see that knife on Reuters?

Thought so.

771 Bagua  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:57:09pm

re: #642 Joo-LiZ

TBH again, I don't see how not having paintball guns could have helped.

It may have made things worse.

At least this way, the weapons grabbed by the mercenaries were only pistols, and it is clear the soldiers had no choice.

What would have happened with actual automatic weapons? The same soldiers who dropped down would have been lynched, and the same soldiers who pulled out their pistols and defended their platoonmates would have opened fire with a different weapon, only it would have looked worse on Israel.

What is TBH?

As to the rest, they should have been holding live weapons while rappelling down. Once they saw the landing zone was filled with armed attackers, they should have locked their descenders and opened fire on the attackers. They could then finish their decent in safety.

They couldn't do this because they were holding toy guns and had misread the situation on the LZ. They will learn from this mistake and not repeat it.

772 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:58:30pm

re: #767 Killgore Trout

Thanks. I try to resist getting overly clever with titles, it's too easy to get overly complicated, hysterical or goofy.

maybe, but you're fair and honest...a lot more than I can say for Reuters

773 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:58:30pm

So now it is a P.R. trap for the U.S.A. too?

We will have to send one of the carrier groups over to make sure that neither Turkey or Iran follow through on their threats to escort ships through the Israeli blockade. We would be there more to prevent a shooting war between any of three than to unconditionally back Israel's blockade policy (even though we do, so far at least).

I guess now we will be the bad guys if this happens? Even though we are only trying to prevent open warfare between Iran, Turkey, and Israel? (Iran has submarines too btw, could get rather dicey).

774 boogberg  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:58:51pm

re: #712 Killgore Trout

Lol! They cropped out the knife again...
Here is the pic from the Peace Activist website showing the knife at the top of the screen.

In the Reuters version there's no knife.

At first I thought it was two different photos but it's the same photo with one turned 90 degrees.

775 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 2:58:58pm

re: #771 Bagua

What is TBH?

As to the rest, they should have been holding live weapons while rappelling down. Once they saw the landing zone was filled with armed attackers, they should have locked their descenders and opened fire on the attackers. They could then finish their decent in safety.

They couldn't do this because they were holding toy guns and had misread the situation on the LZ. They will learn from this mistake and not repeat it.

TBH = To Be Honest.

776 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:00:00pm

re: #766 brookly red

It is no coincidence that this is happening now, the bad guys see weakness and that is that.

but that does not jibe with the leftist rhetoric...BO is a tower of strength and intelligence, and after all he did say he was sorry

777 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:00:03pm

re: #740 Nimed

Which, of course, doesn't stop a lot of people who should know better to keep repeating the piracy accusation:

[Link: opiniojuris.org...]
Yet this hasn’t stopped the following random assortment of Israel critics from continuing to use the stupid piracy charge:

The Foreign Minister of Turkey

Libya’s U.N. Ambassador

Spanish Member of the European Parliament

The Nation

Pat Buchanan

Bill Press

The Canadian Union of Postal Workers (!?!?)

I could go on, but I won’t. Aside from demonstrating the limits of this blog’s readership the flagrant stupidity of this “piracy” meme reflects a remarkable lack of seriousness among (some of) Israel’s critics about the legality of the raid and the blockade. So next time you hear the Foreign Minister of Turkey decrying Israel’s violations of international law, for instance, you can feel confident he actually cares nothing at all about international law, and is just looking for a convenient slogan to slam Israel.

The accusation of piracy is so unambiguously absurd that it's not a stretch to assume bad faith (not just ignorance or bias) from any person or media outlet that keeps repeating it.

That's why I felt the need to be so clear on the subject and its part of the reason I mentioned Cato. Like him, I feel that what words mean is important. Allowing "piracy" to be thrown around and applied to situations it was not intended to apply to distorts the language and allows malfactors to blacken the reputations of others.

778 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:00:53pm

re: #773 ausador

So now it is a P.R. trap for the U.S.A. too?

We will have to send one of the carrier groups over to make sure that neither Turkey or Iran follow through on their threats to escort ships through the Israeli blockade. We would be there more to prevent a shooting war between any of three than to unconditionally back Israel's blockade policy (even though we do, so far at least).

I guess now we will be the bad guys if this happens? Even though we are only trying to prevent open warfare between Iran, Turkey, and Israel? (Iran has submarines too btw, could get rather dicey).

of course it is a PR trap, if you can't even blockade Hamas how the F do think sanctions against Iran would work?

779 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:00:54pm

re: #771 Bagua

What is TBH?

As to the rest, they should have been holding live weapons while rappelling down. Once they saw the landing zone was filled with armed attackers, they should have locked their descenders and opened fire on the attackers. They could then finish their decent in safety.

They couldn't do this because they were holding toy guns and had misread the situation on the LZ. They will learn from this mistake and not repeat it.

I don't think they could have "locked" the descenders.

There were 2 ropes dropped, and 1 was pulled away by the mercenaries, the helicopter crew released it to avoid getting tangled.

As soon as the first 3 or 4 soldiers were down, more had to be dropped to get them back.

The shooting apparently started within the first couple minutes, according to the soldiers own interviews with Ha'aretz and JPost.

780 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:01:24pm

re: #776 albusteve

but that does not jibe with the leftist rhetoric...BO is a tower of strength and intelligence, and after all he did say he was sorry

actions vs words...

781 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:01:31pm

re: #740 Nimed

Anything that can bring "The Nation" and Bat Puchanan together is guaranteed crazeeville.

782 Racer X  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:01:56pm

KT and Charles - nice job of exposing the Reuters deception.

As far as who knifed who - no one knows. Not even clear form the pictures who was giving aid to the wounded soldiers and who was attempting to harm them. All conjecture at this point.

The video showing the "peace activist" repeatedly stabbing one of the IDF guys was damning.

783 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:02:05pm

re: #773 ausador

That would be a mistake. Better to let Israel handle this on their own. They are quite capable.

784 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:03:56pm

re: #755 captdiggs

All of this goes far beyond the danger to Israel.
This is about the loss of Turkey as a moderating force in the middle east.
Erdogan has swung out of the western sphere and fully into the arms of Iran and the Islamist view.
That a NATO nation is now leading the charge for terrorists and against Israel is a disaster for any emerging democracy in the middle east as well as the only existing one, Israel.

You might want to study your history a bit, the military has overthrown the government there three times already and threatened the government back into line once. They have always supported a secular country and have had the power to enforce those views upon the government when it has tried to go Islamic. Let us all hope that that is still true today, I have no idea if it is, but at least we can hope that the Islamists have not managed to corrupt the military also.

785 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:04:15pm

Al Reuters™

The legacy continues.

786 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:04:16pm

re: #783 swamprat

That would be a mistake. Better to let Israel handle this on their own. They are quite capable.

wrong. we have shown enough weakness... our enemies and our allies have noticed.

787 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:04:45pm

oh look!....it's miller time!

788 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:04:50pm

re: #760 brookly red

just one frigate would do the trick but I see our current administration as unwilling.

That is not different from past administrations, at all.

789 captdiggs  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:05:03pm

re: #773 ausador

So now it is a P.R. trap for the U.S.A. too?

We will have to send one of the carrier groups over to make sure that neither Turkey or Iran follow through on their threats to escort ships through the Israeli blockade. We would be there more to prevent a shooting war between any of three than to unconditionally back Israel's blockade policy (even though we do, so far at least).

I guess now we will be the bad guys if this happens? Even though we are only trying to prevent open warfare between Iran, Turkey, and Israel? (Iran has submarines too btw, could get rather dicey).

It's time for Obama to stop being invisible about this.
Turkey has become a major problem and it's time for action.
I don't mean military action, I mean hard ball diplomacy.
Obama shouls have a meeting with Erdogan where he explains that the US will either :
a) Propose the ejection of Turkey from Nato
and/or
b) fast track Israel's inclusion in Nato

That's about the only type of diplomacy that might get through to Erdogan.

790 Bagua  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:05:44pm

re: #657 Joo-LiZ

Agreed.

I don't really know what other way this could have been done to avoid the incident. Part of me really believes there may not have been another way. These mercenaries were determined (paid) to make a scene.

The problem with the global reaction, not the action itself.

Israeli commandos deal effectively with armed terrorists on a routine basis. Those same men, with different rules of engagement and real guns would have done fine. In fact, those who followed did just that, pacifying the quickly terrorists.

Note that Israel has close ties with Turkish intelligence and where likely mislead as to the makeup of the "activists". Turkish intelligence would definitely known about the 50 recruited mercenaries, but decided to conceal this from Israel.

The boarding teams officers thought they were dropping in on a very different crowd of people and was not prepared. Once the commanders had dropped to the deck and were being beaten, the rest had to follow quickly to rescue them.

791 albusteve  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:05:46pm

re: #786 brookly red

wrong. we have shown enough weakness... our enemies and our allies have noticed.

agreed...
peace through superior firepower...
works every time

792 researchok  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:05:59pm

Hello all

793 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:06:01pm

re: #760 brookly red

just one frigate would do the trick but I see our current administration as unwilling.

I don't see Israel asking for help, do you?

794 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:06:24pm

re: #770 Cato the Elder

It's fine to be skeptical about Reuters's possible agenda. Once.

When they crop out the same thing, a knife, in two different pictures, we have either an editorial decision or a "freedom flotilla" sympathizer at work. Or both.

Just ask yourselves this question: If there's a picture of a crazed Israeli nutjob attacking Palestinian Authority police with a knife in his hand, are we gonna see that knife on Reuters?

Thought so.

Also, I haven't notice any other alterations in any other pictures. The only two pics they cropped were the ones with the knife.

795 captdiggs  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:06:52pm

re: #784 ausador

Erdogan has been taming the military with imprisonments and arrests over the last year or so.

796 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:07:19pm

re: #788 Obdicut

That is not different from past administrations, at all.

2 wrongs don't make a right. so what is your point other than that your are mindless?

797 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:07:21pm

re: #793 Cato the Elder

I don't see Israel asking for help, do you?

That's a good point. I may want the US to have a mutual defense treaty with Israel; that doesn't mean Israel wants it.

798 researchok  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:07:34pm

re: #794 Killgore Trout

Also, I haven't notice any other alterations in any other pictures. The only two pics they cropped were the ones with the knife.

They know they are being watched. Makes for more polite and accurate journalism.

799 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:07:41pm

re: #793 Cato the Elder

I don't see Israel asking for help, do you?

It does strike me as a great way to make Israel look weak.

800 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:07:47pm

re: #796 brookly red

What are you talking about?

801 Nimed  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:08:15pm

re: #781 Cato the Elder

Anything that can bring "The Nation" and Bat Puchanan together is guaranteed crazeeville.

lol at the Bat Puchanan pun.
Exactly. At that point, the presence of Libya’s U.N. Ambassador on the list of people screaming "Pirates!" is just redundant for the purpose of establishing lunacy. Quite a feat.

802 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:08:53pm

re: #796 brookly red

2 wrongs don't make a right. so what is your point other than that your are mindless?

Cut the crap. You're saying it's wrong for this and past administrations not to go in with our Navy when Israel has not asked us to do that?

Slow down on the drinking a bit.

803 Joo-LiZ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:08:58pm

re: #790 Bagua

Israeli commandos deal effectively with armed terrorists on a routine basis. Those same men, with different rules of engagement and real guns would have done fine. In fact, those who followed did just that, pacifying the quickly terrorists.

Note that Israel has close ties with Turkish intelligence and where likely mislead as to the makeup of the "activists". Turkish intelligence would definitely known about the 50 recruited mercenaries, but decided to conceal this from Israel.

The boarding teams officers thought they were dropping in on a very different crowd of people and was not prepared. Once the commanders had dropped to the deck and were being beaten, the rest had to follow quickly to rescue them.

Yes, that is fundamentally a factor -- the miscalculation of what they were expecting. See my 689, I actually approve of that Navy Letter of protest after reading what it was really focusing on.

804 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:08:59pm

So I heard you like flashing gifs

Crop job 1: Image: f1ax54.gif

Crop job 2: Image: 142xav9.gif

805 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:09:58pm

re: #797 Obdicut

We have a division of labor. Our intercepts of illicit North Korean weapons has kept some potential mayhem away. Not to disagree at all with you but to give due credit to the help we are providing. Where we should. Our control of some areas around Iran is helpful in exactly the same way. Not so easy for Irans Al Quds to export with us right there.

806 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:10:34pm

re: #805 Rightwingconspirator

You're right. What I really want is for things to be simpler and more straightforward, which is a desire the universe mocks on a regular basis.

807 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:10:46pm

re: #782 Racer X

KT and Charles - nice job of exposing the Reuters deception.

As far as who knifed who - no one knows. Not even clear form the pictures who was giving aid to the wounded soldiers and who was attempting to harm them. All conjecture at this point.

The video showing the "peace activist" repeatedly stabbing one of the IDF guys was damning.

You can sort of peice together a timeline from the pics posted by the Peace Activists.

They drag him up the stairs with his body armor on. He's not visibly wounded or bleeding. At the top of the stairs we see the man with the knife, the soldier's hand is cut, bloody nose and a cut under his left eye. They then drag him back down the stairs, without body armor and bleeding.

808 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:10:47pm

re: #800 Obdicut

What are you talking about?

OK it is like this, you can criticize other administrations and you have a right to do so or you can deal with the present situation. And presently we look weak to the world & nothing good can come of that.

809 boogberg  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:11:16pm

re: #804 MagnaniomousCoward

Sweet! :D

810 dugmartsch  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:12:41pm

re: #330 MandyManners

So, the knives were just for show? So were the slingshots and marbles and rocks? Steel poles just wound?

There were four people standing around a prone IDF one of whom had a knife. If they wanted to kill IDF they could have done it right there.

They were obviously out to create a hostage situation that would embarass the IDF and Israel.

They didn't count on the IDF storming their ships once they took hostages, rather than negotiate.

In my opinion it was the right call by the IDF.

811 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:12:47pm

re: #750 Joo-LiZ

I just saw a commercial for the new Karate Kid... I can't quite get over how "Hollywood"-y it is now.

It is now Chinese, instead of Japanese.

I just heard Jackie Chan telling the kid: "The only way to stop them [the bullies] is to face them... I will teach you!"

That's the exact opposite of the originals. Mr. Miyagi was completely against violence, and even refused to train Daniel when it became clear he just wanted to fight the bullies.

How "The Karate Kid" Ruined the Modern World (with Teh Montage)

812 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:12:48pm

I'm sure we look like little lambs to the leaders of Al-Qaeda.

There are a couple left, right?

813 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:13:20pm

re: #808 brookly red

OK it is like this, you can criticize other administrations and you have a right to do so or you can deal with the present situation. And presently we look weak to the world & nothing good can come of that.

Funny. I think the US standing back and letting Israel deal with this situation makes Israel look pretty strong.

To the deep chagrin of peace activists everywhere.

Now, if Iran and Turkey actually back up their bluster with warship escorts for the next flotilla, this could change. Very damn quickly.

814 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:13:20pm

re: #804 MagnaniomousCoward

So I heard you like flashing gifs

Crop job 1: Image: f1ax54.gif

Crop job 2: Image: 142xav9.gif

Awsome! Could you make a page with those animated gifs?

815 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:14:09pm

re: #802 Cato the Elder

Cut the crap. You're saying it's wrong for this and past administrations not to go in with our Navy when Israel has not asked us to do that?

Slow down on the drinking a bit.

Navy? I am still asking for a strongly worded letter... maybe a speech at the UN? Something, anything there is more than just Israel at risk here it is our world image too.

816 Racer X  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:14:43pm

Great. Just Fucking Great.

As a member of NATO and Washington’s ally in the war on terrorism, Turkey is the third largest recipient of U.S. military aid, behind Israel and Egypt. Between 1994 and 2004, it received well over $1.3 billion in FMF and another $21.4 million in IMET.[224] Congress granted another $33 million in FMF and $4 million in IMET in 2005. The President’s request for 2006 is more modest-- $25 million in FMF and $3 million in IMET.[225]
In the midst of a thirty-year plan to modernize its military, Turkey purchases an enormous quantity of weapons and other military equipment from the United States. Between 1994 and 2003, Turkey took delivery of more than $6.8 billion in U.S. weaponry and services.[226]


The friendliness of Turkey towards the United States has declined markedly over the past five years. A June 2007 Pew Research Center survey found that only 9% of Turkish citizens have a favorable opinion of the United States, the lowest percentage out of all 47 countries surveyed, below the Palestinian territories (13% have a favorable view of the U.S.) and Pakistan (15%).[

817 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:15:11pm

re: #813 Cato the Elder

Funny. I think the US standing back and letting Israel deal with this situation makes Israel look pretty strong.

To the deep chagrin of peace activists everywhere.

Now, if Iran and Turkey actually back up their bluster with warship escorts for the next flotilla, this could change. Very damn quickly.

so are you drinking what I am drinking?

818 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:16:08pm

re: #814 Killgore Trout

OK, hold on to your pope hat.

819 lawhawk  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:16:13pm

re: #799 JasonA

There is something to be said for Israel maintaining an ambiguous military doctrine and policy towards and with the US. It gives the Israelis flexibility to conduct military ops without being tied to the US (and the US gets distance and separation as well), but there are understandings between the 2 countries over assistance should Israel require (think of the US airlift of military equipment during the Yom Kippur War, and then during the 1st Gulf War).

820 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:17:24pm

re: #819 lawhawk

There is something to be said for Israel maintaining an ambiguous military doctrine and policy towards and with the US. It gives the Israelis flexibility to conduct military ops without being tied to the US (and the US gets distance and separation as well), but there are understandings between the 2 countries over assistance should Israel require (think of the US airlift of military equipment during the Yom Kippur War, and then during the 1st Gulf War).

Gee it would be nice if someone from Washington would say that...

821 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:17:52pm

re: #818 MagnaniomousCoward

Sweet!

822 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:18:31pm

So, B-sharp took a dump in the punchbowl, followed by a few farts, and has now left the building.

Nothing trollish about that.

823 Racer X  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:20:03pm

re: #807 Killgore Trout

You can sort of peice together a timeline from the pics posted by the Peace Activists.

They drag him up the stairs with his body armor on. He's not visibly wounded or bleeding. At the top of the stairs we see the man with the knife, the soldier's hand is cut, bloody nose and a cut under his left eye. They then drag him back down the stairs, without body armor and bleeding.


Thanks. One can only hope those who were giving aid to the soldiers were not those wounded or killed.

824 lawhawk  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:20:20pm

re: #813 Cato the Elder

Iran's naval capabilities are significant for the Persian Gulf, but their reach isn't nearly as impressive as the Turkish Navy, which is one of the largest in Europe and has modern frigates and corvettes. The issue is whether the Turkish military would be willing to chance an encounter with the Israeli navy over the Gazans. The Iranians have small surface ships and would harass civilian shipping in the Gulf, but couldn't range much beyond their territorial waters and out of the Gulf. Turkey, is the real wildcard here.

825 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:20:35pm

re: #815 brookly red

Navy? I am still asking for a strongly worded letter... maybe a speech at the UN? Something, anything there is more than just Israel at risk here it is our world image too.

But it's not just Israel we have to consider. We still have troops in two Muslim nations, Iraq and Afghanistan. If possible, it is in our interest to keep our actions to diplomatic measures only. If we send a ship that then sinks an Iranian ship, then our troops will lose support in those countries because we will be seen as fighting against Islam of behalf of Israel.

826 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:20:51pm

re: #820 brookly red

Gee it would be nice if someone from Washington would say that...

Somehow I think you don't really get the whole ambiguity thing.

827 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:22:16pm

re: #821 Killgore Trout

re: #818 MagnaniomousCoward

re: #814 Killgore Trout

Sorry, the gifs are too big for LGF. I'll post them as a comment to your page instead.

828 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:22:51pm

re: #826 Cato the Elder

Somehow I think you don't really get the whole ambiguity thing.

I get it just fine as do the Turks & Iranians & NKs & Chinese etc. weak is weak.

829 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:23:36pm

re: #827 MagnaniomousCoward

re: #818 MagnaniomousCoward

re: #814 Killgore Trout

Sorry, the gifs are too big for LGF. I'll post them as a comment to your page instead.

Let me see if I can shrink those...brb.

830 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:24:56pm

re: #825 Dark_Falcon

But it's not just Israel we have to consider. We still have troops in two Muslim nations, Iraq and Afghanistan. If possible, it is in our interest to keep our actions to diplomatic measures only. If we send a ship that then sinks an Iranian ship, then our troops will lose support in those countries because we will be seen as fighting against Islam of behalf of Israel.

that is kinda like saying if we bust a drug smuggler form Mexico we will lose the Hispanic vote... I am not buying it.

831 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:25:29pm

re: #789 captdiggs

It's time for Obama to stop being invisible about this.
Turkey has become a major problem and it's time for action.
I don't mean military action, I mean hard ball diplomacy.
Obama shouls have a meeting with Erdogan where he explains that the US will either :
a) Propose the ejection of Turkey from Nato
and/or
b) fast track Israel's inclusion in Nato

That's about the only type of diplomacy that might get through to Erdogan.

Israel isn't eligible for membership in N.A.T.O. other than that...well, not sure what to say here... :(

832 swamprat  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:26:14pm

By standing against Israel and giving America a hard time, Turkey defuses the factions screaming for a more sharia compliant government. It quiets internal unrest and reduces the grivance list of potentially dangerous groups within its borders.

It is good Public Relations for them, and it eases the stain of working with the Evil Americans.

833 Nimed  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:26:20pm

re: #825 Dark_Falcon

re: #826 Cato the Elder

Oh, stop being pussies! WAR WITH TURKEY NOW!
/

834 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:26:46pm

re: #827 MagnaniomousCoward

re: #818 MagnaniomousCoward

re: #814 Killgore Trout

Sorry, the gifs are too big for LGF. I'll post them as a comment to your page instead.

Bummer.

835 Cato the Elder  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:26:56pm

OK, back to the Kindle.

For anyone who wants a great free read, Wilkie Collins's "The Moonstone" is available in a readable public-domain edition.

It's perhaps the greatest Victorian mystery novel, and the first real detective story. T.S. Eliot said so, and I concur.

The character of Gabriel Betteredge, the talky butler, is unsurpassed in literature, as is Drusilla Clack, one of the finest depictions of tract-dispensing moral obtuseness you will ever read.

I first read it when I was twelve.

836 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:28:39pm

re: #789 captdiggs

It's time for Obama to stop being invisible about this.
Turkey has become a major problem and it's time for action.
I don't mean military action, I mean hard ball diplomacy.
Obama shouls have a meeting with Erdogan where he explains that the US will either :
a) Propose the ejection of Turkey from Nato
and/or
b) fast track Israel's inclusion in Nato

That's about the only type of diplomacy that might get through to Erdogan.


all that, plus a major bit of help for the Kurds

837 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:29:31pm

re: #827 MagnaniomousCoward

re: #818 MagnaniomousCoward

re: #814 Killgore Trout

Sorry, the gifs are too big for LGF. I'll post them as a comment to your page instead.

re: #834 Killgore Trout

Bummer.

OK, try these:

Image: 142xav9small.gif

Image: f1ax54small.gif

838 Bagua  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:31:33pm

re: #779 Joo-LiZ

I don't think they could have "locked" the descenders.

Of course they can, they have control over their rate of descent and can stop at any time.

There were 2 ropes dropped, and 1 was pulled away by the mercenaries, the helicopter crew released it to avoid getting tangled.

I know, pulling a rope while people are descending was another reason to open fire. They should never have gotten close enough to touch the rope.

As soon as the first 3 or 4 soldiers were down, more had to be dropped to get them back.

Yes, I pointed that out as well. Their commanders were on the deck being attacked and the rest had to go in hard. Their courage and skill is astounding and they quickly gained control once Sgt. took command


The shooting apparently started within the first couple minutes, according to the soldiers own interviews with Ha'aretz and JPost.

Yep, the Israelis did not initiate fire as they should have, they waited until they were under live fire. Amazing restraint, and yet they still get demonised in the vile media. One hopes they don't make a similar mistake in the future. You could not attack an American police officer with an iron pipe or a knife without getting shot.

And note, this is the intention of the terrorists, to raise the stakes so that Israel responds more aggressively in the future. They hope to provoke Israel into violence so they have another anti-Semitic Blood Libel for the media to run wild with. These people have studied how Jew hate was done in Europe and are using the same tactics.

839 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:31:36pm

re: #837 Gus 802

OK, try these:

Image: 142xav9small.gif

Image: f1ax54small.gif

Just ran a test and these are uploadable for LGF pages.

840 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:32:13pm

re: #839 Gus 802

Just ran a test and these are uploadable for LGF pages.

Awesome! And the animation shows up too?

841 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:32:31pm

re: #840 Killgore Trout

Awesome! And the animation shows up too?

Yep. In preview it works.

842 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:32:41pm

re: #839 Gus 802

Great. Can KT put them in his page?

843 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:33:01pm

re: #830 brookly red

that is kinda like saying if we bust a drug smuggler form Mexico we will lose the Hispanic vote... I am not buying it.

No, it's not. The great majority of Latinos approve of busting drug smugglers, for one thing. A normal arrest of a criminal is also a very different thing from a naval engagement. If Turkey were to send her navy against Israel, then I'd be all for sending the US Navy in to prevent a battle and as a last resort defend Israel. But if its a threat Israel can manage on its own, its best they do so.

844 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:33:07pm

re: #842 MagnaniomousCoward

Great. Can KT put them in his page?

Sure.

845 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:33:43pm

re: #844 Gus 802

I mean can you update pages after publishing them?

846 Bagua  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:33:57pm

re: #784 ausador

You might want to study your history a bit, the military has overthrown the government there three times already and threatened the government back into line once. They have always supported a secular country and have had the power to enforce those views upon the government when it has tried to go Islamic. Let us all hope that that is still true today, I have no idea if it is, but at least we can hope that the Islamists have not managed to corrupt the military also.

Which is exactly why Israel trusted Turkish intelligence and got blindsided. This was a shock, apparently the Islamists have more influence over the military than was believed at the time.

847 Gus  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:34:03pm

re: #845 MagnaniomousCoward

I mean can you update pages after publishing them?

Yep. It's the "pencil" icon.

848 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:34:06pm

re: #842 MagnaniomousCoward

Great. Can KT put them in his page?

Ok, I'll give you a hat tip.

849 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:34:44pm

re: #848 Killgore Trout

re: #847 Gus 802

Thanks.

850 Eretz  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:35:47pm

Barry Rubin: I wish to respond to a vicious personal attack on me in this thread which presumably is by someone hiding their true political positions. I am a scholar who has studied the Middle East for more than 30 years and my work focuses on this issue. I have never met any Euro-Fascists or written anything that could be construed as support--I've never even mentioned--the groups criticized on this site. LGF is the ONLY site I go to every day and I have written Charles Johnson in the past that I like his political stance generally. Some sites "thank" me but I have never sent them anything directly. They are only responding to the receipt of my articles, which are sent out to more than 16,000 people on the list. As for claims that I think President Obama supports the Gaza flotilla, that's ridiculous and in fact what I have written on this precise subject is the exact opposite. Anyone interested in my work can visit my site and see for themselves. Thanks to those who have defended me here. Beware of slanders with no evidence and with hidden agendas. Best wishes.

851 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:35:55pm

re: #819 lawhawk

There is something to be said for Israel maintaining an ambiguous military doctrine and policy towards and with the US. It gives the Israelis flexibility to conduct military ops without being tied to the US (and the US gets distance and separation as well), but there are understandings between the 2 countries over assistance should Israel require (think of the US airlift of military equipment during the Yom Kippur War, and then during the 1st Gulf War).

re: #820 brookly red

Gee it would be nice if someone from Washington would say that...

Yes, an official policy of deliberate ambiguity that serves both allies interests should be undermined because "gee it would be nice."

852 Mocking Jay  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:38:03pm

re: #825 Dark_Falcon

But it's not just Israel we have to consider. We still have troops in two Muslim nations, Iraq and Afghanistan. If possible, it is in our interest to keep our actions to diplomatic measures only. If we send a ship that then sinks an Iranian ship, then our troops will lose support in those countries because we will be seen as fighting against Islam of behalf of Israel.

What have you done with Dark_Falcon?

853 brookly red  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:39:51pm

re: #843 Dark_Falcon

No, it's not. The great majority of Latinos approve of busting drug smugglers, for one thing. A normal arrest of a criminal is also a very different thing from a naval engagement. If Turkey were to send her navy against Israel, then I'd be all for sending the US Navy in to prevent a battle and as a last resort defend Israel. But if its a threat Israel can manage on its own, its best they do so.

OK I will buy that, now if only our government would say something similar...

854 Bagua  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:41:32pm

re: #852 JasonA

What have you done with Dark_Falcon?

He's getting over a bad cold.

855 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:44:47pm

re: #852 JasonA

What have you done with Dark_Falcon?

I'm still the same person. Make no mistake; I'd like to send in an AEGIS cruiser and blow any Iranian ship out of the water. But doing that would be counter-productive.

856 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:46:31pm
857 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:48:01pm

re: #853 brookly red

OK I will buy that, now if only our government would say something similar...

They cannot say that. That's the point; To openly tell the world what side we come down on if the rubber meets the road would cause serious PR problems. This is a time for quiet diplomacy on the part of the US, not muscular declarations.

858 prairiefire  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:48:10pm

re: #835 Cato the Elder

May I posit that Mr. Poe created the first fictional detective in C. Auguste Dupin in 1841?

859 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:54:30pm

re: #858 prairiefire

First in English.

Mademoiselle de Scuderi

860 MJ  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:55:52pm

re: #769 Thanos

He likes Eurofascists in his sidebar and doesn't have Charles in his sidebar, gets hat tips from the Barron at GoV. TT is a site that has posted anti-LGF articles. He's an important analyst for a certain crowd, I understand that.

Meanwhile the shrieking harpy is saying Obama's tied to the Flotilla (Ayers! Dohrn! etc.) I expect Rubin to get there as well.


See
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

861 prairiefire  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 3:57:06pm

re: #859 Obdicut

First in English.

Mademoiselle de Scuderi

Oui!

862 b_sharp  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 5:22:36pm

re: #822 Cato the Elder

So, B-sharp took a dump in the punchbowl, followed by a few farts, and has now left the building.

Nothing trollish about that.

Damn Cato, I wasn't aware I had to have permission to go pick up my kid and drive her to pick up my grandson. Next time I'll be sure to ask.

863 Randall Gross  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 5:51:49pm

re: #850 Eretz

Slander my ass. Tundra Tabloids is in that constellation of Eurofascist blogs you have them in your sidebar. Fact. They've attacked Charles in the past. Fact. You don't have Charles in your sidebar [Fact last time I checked] You pimp your blog here almost daily. Right now your friends at Tundra Tabloids are carrying this story and Hat Tipping Baron at Gates of Vienna.

As to the comment regarding Obama, I expect you to somehow lay this problem at his doorstep, not as stridently as the harpy, but in a more slantwise and refined manner.... or perhaps not now that I've called it out.

864 Randall Gross  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 5:53:50pm

re: #850 Eretz

One more note : you sound all huffy with that charge of slander, just like Spencer did...

865 Randall Gross  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 5:54:51pm

re: #860 MJ

Thanks for pointing that out as otherwise I would have missed it, I am only partially here tonight since I'm working on the frankenputer.

866 Flavia  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 8:20:47pm

re: #6 MandyManners

Was it one of the not-yet-dead terrorists holding the knife?

We can only hope.

And this is one of the top reasons I hate terrorists: because they make me want to kill them. And not in quiet little humane executions, either.

867 Dave Brown  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:56:55pm

re: #2 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yer kiddin' right?

The bloody photo was posted on the Islamist website!

868 Dave Brown  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 9:57:17pm

Lies, damn lies... and photoshopping.

"...we have two pictures from the “peace activists” that were cropped by someone at Reuters to remove knives in the hands of the activists..."

The Islamist IHH website itself shows the wounded soldier, the knife, the blood and a second wounded soldier. But Reuters cropped all these signs of IHH violence out of the picture. Why? (Why do you think?)

In another instance, another knife is shown (in the Turkish press, and in the Associated Press), but it is cropped by Reuters:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Recall that Reuters was accused of bias against Israel in its coverage of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, in which the company used two doctored photos by a Lebanese freelance photographer Adnan Hajj. Reuters blamed the freelancer.

I wonder whose to blame when even the terrorists (a term that Reuters refuses to use) publish the truth, but for some reason Reuters itself has an interest in obscuring the truth?

Who was it that said, "What is truth?" (Ah yes, Pontius Pilate, wasn't it?)


"Truth is Lies. Love is Hate. War is Peace". Get used to it.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

869 tobariv  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 10:05:17pm

Sadly we are living in times filled with so much evil

870 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Jun 6, 2010 11:14:36pm

re: #869 tobariv

Sadly we are living in times filled with so much evil

And so much good.

As it ever was, as it ever shall be.

871 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jun 7, 2010 12:47:06am

re: #111 reine.de.tout

Available right here!

Thanks! Just ordered both!

872 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jun 7, 2010 12:50:39am

re: #129 Gang of One

You are correct, Sir. I was not paying attention.

Drop and give me twenty!

873 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jun 7, 2010 1:12:14am

re: #301 Obdicut

I agree, the original comment was weird; I also don't think separating things into 'right' and 'left' really does much good for anyone other than the politicians.

In happier stuff, here's MarjorieMoon's post about John Kerry's strong defense of Israel:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Huffington and Marcos both criticized Israel, and Kerry defended Israel.

If Kerry had been that strong in his policy statements before and during 2004, he'd have won the election. Waffling such as "I voted for it before I voted against it" (or was it the reverse?) cost him critical votes, as he was perceived as the stereotypical afraid-to-act-decisively Democrat.

Senator, thanks for the support.

874 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jun 7, 2010 1:14:24am

re: #317 bratwurst

Bear in mind that even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Not if it's a military-style 24-hour clock.

875 ClaudeMonet  Mon, Jun 7, 2010 2:10:30am

re: #347 lawhawk

Considering that this photo editing (the cropping of a critical portion of a photo) violates their code of principals.

Moreover, it may be a violation of the Reuters Guide to Standards and Photoshop.

While cropping is permitted by Reuters, this particular instance fundamentally changes the nature of the photo and the story being conveyed and I think it would violate those terms.

This is from when Reuters fired Adnan Hajj for blatantly Photoshpping the effects of Israeli bominb in Beirut in 2006--

“There is no graver breach of Reuters standards for our photographers than the deliberate manipulation of an image,” Tom Szlukovenyi, global photo editor of Reuters, said in a statement from London, where the company has its headquarters. “Reuters has zero tolerance for any doctoring of pictures and constantly reminds its photographers, both staff and freelance, of this strict and unalterable policy.”

I guess that means that if the photographer alters it, it's strictly forbidden, but if someone at Reuters alters it, that's OK.

re: #704 goddamnedfrank

Pffft, that's amateur move, upgrade to Vogon poetry and you won't be disappointed.

A Douglas Adams reference is always in order.

re: #766 brookly red

It is no coincidence that this is happening now, the bad guys see weakness and that is that.

Images of Jimmy Carter go through my head, which may be why I can't sleep.


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