Hot Air Comments of the Day

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Time for tonight’s edition of the most extreme, hateful comments posted at the Hot Air blog owned by Michelle Malkin and run by Ed Morrissey and “Allahpundit.” We’ll start off with a few comments from a thread about calls to impeach President Obama. Ed Morrissey seems to believe this is a pretty foolish idea, but a lot of Hot Air commenters disagree — vehemently. (Which isn’t too surprising, because “vehement” is the default mode for Hot Air commenters.)

Thanks to LGF readers Simoom and Killgore Trout for dredging through the muck and pointing out some of these comments.

The filthy lying coward in the White House could commit a murder, rape, and bank heist at the State of the Union speech and he still would not be impeached. There are too many who are willing to ignore the rat bastard traitor’s actions because he is black. This is the sine qua non of using the race card to destroy America.

highhopes on October 17, 2009 at 1:55 PM

[…]

I think part of that would depend on the crime. You can’t impeach the filthy lying coward on minor infractions because the screams of racism (whites trying to take the black President down because of his skin color). The door should be left open if all the Chicago corruption bubbles up and it is found that the rat bastard traitor did indeed commit some unpardonable crime like voter fraud.

highhopes on October 17, 2009 at 2:03 PM

[…]

You need to learn some history, Ed. The Nazis didn’t start out rounding people up and putting them in camps or shooting them. The Nazis started out the same way that The Precedent is starting out. And you are very flippant about their “radical agenda that is a disaster for America in both the short and long terms”. Either you don’t believe your own words, about it being ‘radical’ and a ‘disaster’, or you just don’t understand what the consequences of such a radical disaster are going to be. I would guess it’s the latter.

Those arguments do nothing but make a certain portion of the grassroots look ill-educated and hysterical.

LOL. When you say ‘radical’ and ‘disaster’ most put you right in the same group with us. THe only difference is that we understand how these things unfold. We remember that ancient history of Oct 2008 and understand what precipice this nation is perched over. We understand what that fall will be like. You don’t. That’s how things were in Germany … and most of the other places where people saw the ‘radical’ and ‘disastrous’ policies that were being implemented, but ignored them as being just blips in the line of history.

progressoverpeace on October 17, 2009 at 2:14 PM

[…]

I think he will be impeached. Impeached for his unrelenting assault on America. Impeached for his alliances with dictators – he offers his hand… Not America’s hand…. just his. With a small ‘h’.

hE does not speak for America. He speaks for himself, his own enrichment, his own agenda and out of his own personal rage. hE does not speak for me.

A shameful past, a shameful agenda, a shameful existence, a shameful hubris. This man will forever be known as the shame of America.

We will thrive. hE will fall.

Key West Reader on October 17, 2009 at 2:14 PM

[…]

Im sorry but i disagree because of one thing
what obama is currently doing
with the democrats is TREASON..

they Disobeyed the will of the people
they sicked the FBI and nepalitano on veterans in the usa
they activly helped the Islamic terrorists and even sent them to bermuda all paid for at our expense
they tried to jail cia officers while allowing
islamic terrorists to roam free in downtown usa

These alone are charges worthy of at least a grand jury
or impeachement
I honestly would trust osama bin laden MORE
than all of the democrats and obama combined..

For osama is only trying to kill us

Democrats are trying to destroy our entire nation..

They are ALL EVIL..

veteranoutrage.com

To damned bad if you dont like it..

veteranoutrage on October 17, 2009 at 2:57 PM

[…]

Federalism is dead. We live in a nearly pure Democracy. That is, an Ochlocracy — MOB RULE.

It does not matter that he was Democratically elected. So were Achmadinejad, Hussein, and a who’s who of Tyrants.

We are presently in the midst of a Communist Coup D’Etat. The fact that an ignorant populace voted for it is of no import.

The Putschist in Chief, our historical First Woman President, has, by fiat, routinely disregarded the U.S. Constitution and eliminated the very Rule of Law. He and the Democrat Congress are now in the pocess of implementing the Cloward-Piven strategy in an effort to destroy the entire U.S. economy. They will then usher in the new Communist planned economy and government.

If Obama is not impeached, there are only two possible results:
1) Revolt; or,
2) Tyranny

We know which Ed Morischmuck would choose.

Barack Obama IS an ENEMY OF THE STATE CURRENTLY IN THE PROCESS OF OVERTHROWING OUR CONSTITUTIONALLY BASED FEDERAL REPUBLIC.

TREASON, and the OVERTHROW OF THE GOVERNMENT AS FOUNDED are plenty enough justification for not only impeachment, conviction, and removal from office; but also for being charged, tried, convicted, and HUNG as a traitor to the Union.

While our Nation is dismantled before our eyes, Quisling Neo-Statists like Morriputz will continue to wring their hands about how true-blue Americanism is “Perceived” and whether real conservatives might lose “Credibility” in the eyes of the State-Run Media, Leftists, and the ignorant independents who voted for “Change” without bothering to question what kind of change was intended.

Eyas on October 17, 2009 at 3:39 PM

[…]

I’m not a religious man. In fact, I’m an atheist.

But, I was put on this Earth, in this Nation, at this time in history, only to give warning.

That some ignore the warning phazes me not at all. That most Americans will never get the warning, and would disregard it if they did, bothers me a great deal.

Let those who have ears hear; Let those who have eyes see; and let those who would fiddle as Rome burns, themselves burn in Hell for eternity.

Thatisall.

Eyas on October 17, 2009 at 3:55 PM

[…]

Ed, I rarely disagree with you, but this time I must.

Obama is EXACTLY like Adolf Hitler.

I’m not going to claim to be an expert in Nazi Germany, but I have always been fascinated by that evil period in history, and have tried to learn as much as I can about that point in time. …

Now taking over banks and car companies is too easy of a comparison. Remember, the Volkswagen was Hitler’s baby. Obama is not smart enough to be involved in modern automobile design, but you just know his idea of a “people’s car” is out there somewhere.

People forget that the Nazis were “green freaks” just like the “progressive” nut jobs we have now. The Volkswagen was just as much of a “green machine” as anything that Obama and his idiots would come up with. It’s “green design” was part of the deal.

Nazis were also “health nuts.” Hitler banned smoking, and preached a “healthy lifestyle” to the extreme. Just like today’s bunch. Of course, in Germany, your body belonged to Hitler.

And what about Obama’s strong arm “Chicago” politics, intimidating business, media, and private citizens?

Hitler used the labor unions before he built his own “private army” as enforcers.

Obama sent out his SEIU union thugs to townhall meetings to do the same. Remember when Obama told these union thugs to “punch back twice as hard” and then they went out and promptly sent Kenneth Gladney to the hospital?

Obama is also on record saying he wants a “civilian defense force as large and well funded as the military.”

How Hitleresque!

I could go on and on and on. But suffice it to say, actions wise, agenda wise, Obama=Hitler.

It WOULD NOT be hard to build the case for impeachment. In fact, I think it should be the litmus test for everyone running for office in 2010!

Every Republican running for the House should be asked to answer yes or no as to whether they would participate in submitting articles of impeachment, and every one running for the Senate should be asked if they were inclined to convict, if the evidence is there.

Obama has consistently violated the Constitution. Hell ObamaCare is unconstitutional!

People that say “lay off the Hitler deal” or “shhh, don’t talk about impeaching this moron” really anger me, as do the ones who try to shut down the “birthers.”

Look, I have no idea where Obama was born, and neither does anyone else, except those that were actually there, and most of them are dead!

I do know THIS: Obama has spent over $1.5 million fighting all attempts to see his REAL birth certificate. One can get a certified copy of the REAL Hawaiian BC for around $10.

NO ONE spends that kind of money for giggles. Something is wrong.

BTW, Obama’s half sister, who for sure was born in Indonesia, has the exact same BC as the one Obama trots out and claims to be kosher.

Again, I have no earthly idea if the “birthers” are wrong. But there is certainly enough evidence, real evidence, that something isn’t right about Obama, and not right enough that it demands serious consideration and investigation.

Impeachment is a no brainer. The case for that is solid, and only growing. It’s simply a matter of having the guts to do it.

Frankly, what I would love to see, and I call for it often when I write, is to see a simple movement demanding Obama resign for the good of the nation.

Instead of formal impeachment, he should be strongly urged to step down, admit his failure, and move on.

The poll posted that only 43 percent of America would re-elect this guy shows that a campaign asking Obama to just go away would have strong support. That also might be more palpable to some than actually impeaching the man.

A strong campaign of this type would also put serious pressure on the democrat/communist Congress to get it’s act together, and back off of their insane path.

One thing is for sure, if Obama isn’t stopped, 2010 may not get here quick enough. As much destruction as he has caused in these 9 1/2 months, think what he can do between now and a year from now!

I guess my point is that it’s reckless to try and quash these efforts of sincere and level headed patriots who see Obama and his thugs as the biggest threat this nation has ever faced.

One wonders if our founding fathers faced such scorn from the news people of the their day. Remember, these men were revolutionaries. They were preparing to violently overthrow the Crown!

“Birthers” and those promoting impeachment simply want to use the Constitution, something our founders fought a revolution over, and something men have fought and died for for 233 years to preserve, as a LEGAL mechanism to A) make sure Obama really is legit or B) remove him from power.

Would folks rather see fighting in the streets?

gary4205 on October 17, 2009 at 4:29 PM

[…]

gary4205 makes a a good argument. Although I seriously doubt that a movement to impeach Obama will go any where. Conservatives today don’t have the cojones…

mcplumbercuda on October 17, 2009 at 4:38 PM

There’s a lot more in this vein. It’s a Hitlerfest over there.

In another thread asking whether President Obama’s Nobel Peace Prize was unconstitutional, we find the good old “go back to Africa!” theme and its corollary, “go back to Indonesia!”

This Nobel was nothing but an affirmative action joke, just like The Precedent, himself, and no one with any sense of decency would vote for him to go collect it – unless it was with a one-way ticket and he was disallowed from ever returning. Let him go to Indonesia, where his third world style of governing is more in line with their sensibilities.

progressoverpeace on October 16, 2009 at 5:17 PM

[…]

TR waited until he was out of office to accept the prize.

I’m all for Osama Obama doing the same. He can take the money back to Kenya with him and help his brother and all the other suckers over there who believed in him.

MrScribbler on October 16, 2009 at 5:24 PM

[…]

If it’s one thing American’s don’t like – it’s someone getting something that they didn’t work to earn. Well here it is – Ogabe!

HondaV65 on October 16, 2009 at 5:34 PM

I have quite a few more comments — this kind of stuff is in every single thread — but that’s about all I can stomach right now.

Ranting, raving, and racism — Hot Air’s Three Rs.

UPDATE at 10/17/09 6:12:52 pm:

One more comment needs highlighting, because it’s outright neo-Nazi white supremacist stuff, of the Christian Identity variety. From this thread: Hot Air Headlines » Zogby: 69% of Mexicans say Mexican-Americans should be loyal to Mexico

People want to live with their own kind. Babel (multicultural) nations need Emperors to rule over them or else they divide or collapse into civil war.

aengus on October 15, 2009 at 2:08 PM

The idea that the Tower of Babel was destroyed and the nations sundered apart is a very common theme among Christian Identity white supremacists. They use it as justification for keeping the races apart, with “emperors” to rule over them — because God wanted it that way.

Google tower of babel christian identity if you want more information on this perverted religious rationalization for racism.

Jump to bottom

980 comments
1 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:20:41pm

It's the return of the old "right wing", those that opposed desegregation, only that many of them are only now waking up to their (tainted) heritage. Heh, they are discovering their "roots".

2 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:20:59pm

Thanks for going through the comments over there. I wouldn't do it.

3 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:25:44pm
Remember, the Volkswagen was Hitler’s baby. Obama is not smart enough to be involved in modern automobile design, but you just know his idea of a “people’s car” is out there somewhere.

People forget that the Nazis were “green freaks” just like the “progressive” nut jobs we have now. The Volkswagen was just as much of a “green machine” as anything that Obama and his idiots would come up with. It’s “green design” was part of the deal.


Lol

4 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:26:47pm

re: #3 Killgore Trout

I loved this one:

Nazis were also “health nuts.” Hitler banned smoking, and preached a “healthy lifestyle” to the extreme. Just like today’s bunch. Of course, in Germany, your body belonged to Hitler.

How healthy do you think that guy is?

5 insanity police  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:28:09pm

That's some scary stuff.

6 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:28:19pm

Here's a fresh one...

my president….the first “black” president, is nothing more than a f-cking p-ssy!

Ghoul aid on October 17, 2009 at 8:16 PM

7 jdog29  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:29:33pm

re: #5 insanity police

That's some scary stuff.

so stupid it IS scary

8 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:29:47pm

It's amazing how rapidly "progressoverpeace" went off the deep end. I had a sense of it when I posted over there. Now, it's open and ugly.

9 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:30:00pm

This is like reading DKos, but in a different flavor.

10 Guanxi88  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:30:16pm

Are we 100% sure these folk aren't all posting from the day rooms of their respective state nervous hospitals?

11 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:30:45pm

re: #4 Charles

I loved this one:

How healthy do you think that guy is?

Probably fatter than me and with a drinking problem.

12 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:30:58pm

I'm entertained how the Nazis moved from just being leftists to greenies...

I mean like yeah, those Krupp works and slave labor camps were models of eco-friendly...

I suppose it is a natural progression of the insane Jonah Goldberg meme. However, it does not make it any less insane.

I am also interested how a bunch of white supremacist, racist, bastards who like to talk about secession get to call others treasonous and nazi.

I'm about fully fed up with these loons.

13 Kragar  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:30:58pm

re: #9 NJDhockeyfan

This is like reading DKos, but in a different flavor.

More like DU

14 insanity police  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:31:22pm

The tagline on the veteranoutrage website linked in one of the comments is kind of funny: "I am a vet who is a tad upset and i will not be silenced by the commies on the left."

/Damn commies.

15 Guanxi88  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:31:48pm

re: #9 NJDhockeyfan

This is like reading DKos, but in a different flavor.

They're spiritual twins, you know. One day, they'll all wake up and understand that they have become exactly what they hated most. Whether they do anything with this knowledge, I don't know.

16 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:32:09pm

re: #14 insanity police

The tagline on the veteranoutrage website linked in one of the comments is kind of funny: "I am a vet who is a tad upset and i will not be silenced by the commies on the left."

/Damn commies.

Priviat :)

17 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:32:24pm

re: #10 Guanxi88

Are we 100% sure these folk aren't all posting from the day rooms of their respective state nervous hospitals?

I wish that were true. I also wish that such a hospital held the studio for the Glen Beck show. Then Glen could get the treatment he needs before going on the air.

18 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:32:27pm

re: #9 NJDhockeyfan

This is like reading DKos, but in a different flavor.


Exactly.

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:32:33pm

Here's a charming bit from Hot Air...Your text to link...

20 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:32:56pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

More like DU

Yeah -- it's almost exactly like Democratic Underground -- the John Birch version.

21 akarra  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:33:39pm

I feel so much smarter after reading some of that thread. I couldn't read all of it - couldn't even come close to finishing it - because I didn't think adults who voted and had jobs and could be trusted in any number of situations public and private could rant like that.

22 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:33:42pm

And so, hotair is becoming the dailykos.
The dailykos has put away the protest signs and is begining to look for work.

Hot air;

"That's a nice 'impeach the president' sign. What are you going to do with it?"

Kos;

"... What?...Oh, you can have it, man. I'm trying for a gig at the city administration in the morning."

Hotair;

"Oh. Far out, I guess."

23 jdog29  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:33:58pm

re: #20 Charles

Yeah -- it's almost exactly like Democratic Underground -- the John Birch version.

Yeah but the more closely related the crazy, the more embarassing it is.

:-)

24 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:34:57pm

re: #4 Charles

I loved this one:

How healthy do you think that guy is?

I guessing about as healthy as this guy :

Youtube Video
25 jaunte  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:35:34pm

Treacherous commies want us to be fit and healthy, but we're not gonna fall for it.
/

26 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:35:47pm

re: #20 Charles

Yeah -- it's almost exactly like Democratic Underground -- the John Birch version.

And it constitutes a lot more people who are a lot better supported and they have a major political party throwing them bones - and even senators who think like them.

It is much much worse overall because of it.

27 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:36:36pm

That's quite an appalling lack of common decency. hot air only seems to serve as a means of lowering the public discourse and not raising it. It only serves to increase this sort of message in politics, and the results could be seen at the townhalls with finger biting, and yelling... Disgusting people.

Frankly- the depravity and sociopathy is making me a bit ill.

28 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:36:54pm

re: #19 SanFranciscoZionist

Here's a charming bit from Hot Air...Your text to link...

Oh, Mocking the death of Ted Kennedy, that's nice.

/spits on HA

29 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:37:27pm
Ed, I rarely disagree with you, but this time I must.

Obama is EXACTLY like Adolf Hitler.

WOW...exchange Obama with Bush and you have DKos or DU.

30 insanity police  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:37:35pm

re: #24 Jimmah

Amazed he could work a webcam! Redneck Stephen Hawking.

31 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:37:43pm

Dorky one from the Green Room:

So far, the proponents of “Anthropological Global Warming” theory have not produced even ONE accurate prediction in over 30 years of trying, so AGW has so far FLUNKED the “predictive validity” test with a perfect score of ZERO!!!

Anthropological! It's anthropogenic.

32 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:37:45pm

Killgore: which thread was this comment in? I lost it last night when Safari crashed...

People want to live with their own kind. Babel (multicultural) nations need Emperors to rule over them or else they divide or collapse into civil war.

aengus on October 15, 2009 at 2:08 PM

This is outright neo-Nazi white supremacist stuff, and I want to add it to the post, but I couldn't find the thread.

33 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:38:13pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

You expect decency from screaming terrified uneducated types who are convinced that brown people are persecuting their lilly white asses?

34 Mocking Jay  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:38:57pm

Good job. Now go wash your eyes out.

35 oneisnotprime  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:39:03pm

OK--there are some nuts in the Hot Air comment threads. I'm sure Ed and Allahpundit would agree with that statement. So what is the point?

36 jaunte  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:39:12pm

re: #31 Gus 802

So far, the proponents of “Anthropological Global Warming” theory have not produced even ONE accurate prediction in over 30 years of trying,

Ahah! Technically he's right!

37 insanity police  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:39:14pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

That's quite an appalling lack of common decency. hot air only seems to serve as a means of lowering the public discourse and not raising it. It only serves to increase this sort of message in politics, and the results could be seen at the townhalls with finger biting, and yelling... Disgusting people.

Frankly- the depravity and sociopathy is making me a bit ill.

Careful, or you'll find yourself in another stupid JSM linked online comic book where your character is totally hot and cool.

38 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:39:30pm

re: #31 Gus 802

Dorky one from the Green Room:

Anthropological! It's anthropogenic.

And ummm no we have made tens of thousands of accurate predictions.

Thank you GOP for making this a political purity issue based on outright lies.

39 mythicknight  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:39:51pm

Can someone tell me when the LGF/Hot Air rift began?

I've followed both pretty regularly till I started uni again and I'm trying to catch up on things. What's happened in the past few months that've turned things like this?

:%P%

40 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:40:12pm

re: #35 oneisnotprime

I don't understand the question. Please elaborate.

41 checked08  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:40:19pm

re: #12 Ludwigvanquixote

Was told that the Green movement was a U.S.S.R. plot to destroy the US from the inside.

42 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:40:50pm

The sleepers awake.

43 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:40:59pm

re: #35 oneisnotprime

OK--there are some nuts in the Hot Air comment threads. I'm sure Ed and Allahpundit would agree with that statement. So what is the point?

They go about their particular brand of hate filled lunacy absolutely unchecked?

44 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:41:12pm

re: #39 mythicknight

You could trying reading what sort of stuff is posted at Hot Air for comments, to see why LGF might have a problem with it.

45 jdog29  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:42:32pm

re: #39 mythicknight

Can someone tell me when the LGF/Hot Air rift began?

I've followed both pretty regularly till I started uni again and I'm trying to catch up on things. What's happened in the past few months that've turned things like this?

:%P%

whatever you do, don't try to catch up, just start here and make your own judgement call.

46 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:42:45pm

re: #35 oneisnotprime

OK--there are some nuts in the Hot Air comment threads. I'm sure Ed and Allahpundit would agree with that statement. So what is the point?

The point is that they are not deleting those comments and banning the posters, as they should be doing.

47 Kragar  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:45:08pm

re: #42 Charles

The sleepers awake.

HE IS THE KWISATZ HADERACH!

48 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:45:32pm

re: #39 mythicknight


Two roads diverged in a bloggy wood
And Charles, not knowing how, or why
he took the one less traveled by
two roads which seemed about the same
save this; one had the lesser share
of hate, and bigotry, and there...
well, there lie all the difference

49 jaunte  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:45:34pm
If Obama is not impeached, there are only two possible results:
1) Revolt; or,
2) Tyranny


Or if you don't get a grip
3) Hysteria

50 fizzlogic  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:45:58pm

As discussed earlier at Balloon-Juice, it's as if these people live on a different planet.

51 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:46:45pm

re: #42 Charles

They prefer to come out at night...

The sun... it burns them.

52 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:47:00pm

Charles, at one point I thought I'd lodge protest for Kilgore's bomb-dropping over at HA, but in light of all the posts that have been brought to light, there's not much cause to bitch about that.

Damn, it's gotten ugly on the Right side of the fence.

53 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:47:19pm

I don't think the impeachment rhetoric at Kos ever got quite this bad. Most people demanding impeachment over there had at least some kind of plausible legal theory even though they were wrong.

These people have no argument whatsoever. It's just bile and hate.

54 bosforus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:47:34pm

I came to the conclusion today that I find myself despising the opposition party of whoever the current president is. Having only really paid attention to politics for the last 10 years or so of my 29 years of life I don't think I'll ever be able to, with a good conscience, align myself with the crazies that seem to get the soap box for the opposing party. I guess that puts me just about in the middle of the political spectrum.
sidenote: Borders bookstore has absolutely no books about Mao or the cultural revolution. What's up with that?

55 jdog29  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:47:37pm

re: #49 jaunte

Or if you don't get a grip
3) Hysteria

If a poster throws a tantrum in the blogosphere and doesn't get any hits, does it make a sound?

56 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:47:54pm

I suspect that most people have always had crazy ideas, but in the past they kept quiet about it and were somewhat intimidated by their "betters." Now the internet has liberated them, and everyone can babble away.

57 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:48:59pm

OK I have decided to sum up the rants into one big steaming pile of goop...

The vile, evil, sick, rant, when condensed, comes down to something like...

I want treasonous OBAMA impeached. He's a muslim nazi commie. Nazis are commies and so are greenies and he is all three and it's all the same! He wasn't even born here! He is taking America away from us good decent white folks and giving it to worthless brown people and poor people - who are all brown and atheist and muslim anyway - none of them are good clean Christian folks like me and I hate him and I hate them...

He is going to take my guns so it will be harder to fight when the thugs from the death panels come, but I know better. When he got elected I bought seventeen new rifles and about 5000 rounds. Come and get some. I hope it happens.

This conspiracy has been brewing for some time. The international commies and their gay nazi commie leaders won't take America from me. They want to destroy everything and make the planet green. The planet is already green. All that fake science. Hell they believe that the were born from monkeys - no wonder they are so stupid about science. All the science I need is in the Bible. God said so, I believe it and that is that.

God also said to kill fags, and this muslim bastard wants to give them money to get married.


Now what is more sad?

1. The fact that people in the 21st century actually think this way?

or

2. The fact that Americans in the 21st century think this way?

58 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:49:58pm

re: #52 Noam Sayin'

Charles, at one point I thought I'd lodge protest for Kilgore's bomb-dropping over at HA, but in light of all the posts that have been brought to light, there's not much cause to bitch about that.

Damn, it's gotten ugly on the Right side of the fence.

I thought it was a groovy plan and it blew their minds...I saw no downside to it...I would not have bothered but I'm glad somebody did...

59 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:50:24pm

re: #56 The Curmudgeon

I suspect that most people have always had crazy ideas, but in the past they kept quiet about it and were somewhat intimidated by their "betters." Now the internet has liberated them, and everyone can babble away.

Every moron now has a soapbox with global reach. This is the result.

60 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:50:25pm

re: #52 Noam Sayin'

Charles, at one point I thought I'd lodge protest for Kilgore's bomb-dropping over at HA, but in light of all the posts that have been brought to light, there's not much cause to bitch about that.

Damn, it's gotten ugly on the Right side of the fence.

And they'd rather get angry at Killgore Trout (and me, accusing me of staging the stunt, which I did not) than do anything real to clean up their website. Hot Air has become a cesspool reminiscent of the very worst of Free Republic, with occasional hints of Stormfront.

61 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:51:27pm

re: #54 bosforus


sidenote: Borders bookstore has absolutely no books about Mao or the cultural revolution. What's up with that?

My gf is a manager at Barnes and Noble. Depending on the location of the store, nonfiction just doesn't sell fast enough to keep much variety on the shelves during a recession.

62 jdog29  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:52:01pm

re: #53 Conservative Moonbat

I don't think the impeachment rhetoric at Kos ever got quite this bad. Most people demanding impeachment over there had at least some kind of plausible legal theory even though they were wrong.

These people have no argument whatsoever. It's just bile and hate.

Nah, it's just FUNNIER when it's coming from the other side.

63 Irenicum  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:52:15pm

re: #42 Charles

And they will be put back to sleep.

64 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:52:27pm

Ah, found the 'Babel' comment.

65 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:52:34pm

So i've been disagreed with quite vehemently that Obama is being 'demonized' by the right, and I'm starting the think the more accurate word is 'dehumanizing'.

66 jdog29  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:52:35pm

re: #63 Irenicum

And they will be put back to sleep.

sleep panels //

67 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:53:03pm

re: #64 Charles

Ah, found the 'Babel' comment.

? As in tower of?

68 bosforus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:53:24pm

re: #61 Conservative Moonbat

My gf is a manager at Barnes and Noble. Depending on the location of the store, nonfiction just doesn't sell fast enough to keep much variety on the shelves during a recession.

Interesting. Guess that's why it was packed to the brim with vampire and zombie books (puke). I settled for sitting down with Our Dumb World as I waited for the restaurant to call me to be seated.

69 oneisnotprime  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:53:44pm

re: #40 NJDhockeyfan

There are a few possible approaches to maintaining comment sections--if you don't edit them at all, they quickly become out and out sewers, but if you edit them at all, you are assuming some authority--and therefore some shade of responsibility--over all comments you allow to remain.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I don't think it is removing all comments that are disagreeable, even if they are outright disgusting. One could argue that some line has to be drawn somewhere, which I don't disagree with (posting anything potentially illegal, for example), but it is hard to maintain an editorial policy over a comment section without it becoming a slippery slope--see what's occurring with Apple's App store for example.

Personally I tend toward the approach of giving commenters enough rope to hang themselves, so when I see hateful comments that are allowed to remain posted, I don't consider it an endorsement by the site they're posted on, and therefore consider the comments as reflecting poorly on the commenter but not necessarily the hosting site.

70 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:54:53pm

re: #58 albusteve

I thought it was a groovy plan and it blew their minds...I saw no downside to it...I would not have bothered but I'm glad somebody did...

The thing is, it's been done against Charles, but Charles has always been good at cleaning up the radical comments - it's really one of his hallmarks. One can not exactly defend the prevalence of comments at HA. I'm disappointed for Ed and AP, and mostly for Michelle, who had to constantly combat that sort of hatred directed at herself only a few short years ago.

Got to log off for a bit. Firefox has identified an issue.

71 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:55:35pm

re: #67 LudwigVanQuixote

? As in tower of?

Yes, this is the comment:

People want to live with their own kind. Babel (multicultural) nations need Emperors to rule over them or else they divide or collapse into civil war.

aengus on October 15, 2009 at 2:08 PM

("aengus" had an account at LGF too, now blocked.)

This idea that the Tower of Babel was destroyed and the nations sundered apart is a very common theme among white supremacists of the Christian Identity stripe. They use it as justification for keeping the races apart, with "emperors" to rule over them -- because God wanted it that way.

72 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:56:10pm

re: #69 oneisnotprime

Plenty of the comments reposted here are by the same people. There's more than enough rope

73 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:56:20pm

re: #69 oneisnotprime

It's worked fine here at LGF, and Charles does it by himself. You think since Hot Air has more people monitoring the site they could keep it clean and ban the idiots?

74 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:56:38pm

re: #69 oneisnotprime

Now I don't understand why you asked what the point is. Seems like you have a fair grasp of it.

75 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:56:41pm

re: #69 oneisnotprime

There are a few possible approaches to maintaining comment sections--if you don't edit them at all, they quickly become out and out sewers, but if you edit them at all, you are assuming some authority--and therefore some shade of responsibility--over all comments you allow to remain.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I don't think it is removing all comments that are disagreeable, even if they are outright disgusting. One could argue that some line has to be drawn somewhere, which I don't disagree with (posting anything potentially illegal, for example), but it is hard to maintain an editorial policy over a comment section without it becoming a slippery slope--see what's occurring with Apple's App store for example.

Personally I tend toward the approach of giving commenters enough rope to hang themselves, so when I see hateful comments that are allowed to remain posted, I don't consider it an endorsement by the site they're posted on, and therefore consider the comments as reflecting poorly on the commenter but not necessarily the hosting site.

if you'd agree the should be a line drawn, then where would that line be...maybe we differ on what's considered disagreeable...the stuff posted above is far beyond disagreeable

76 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:57:29pm

re: #29 NJDhockeyfan

The next time I see you confront bad behavior on the right without pointing to your perceived equivalent on the left will be the first.

77 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:58:26pm

re: #60 Charles

I'm so disappointed they'd let that vitriol continue. It's so ugly.

78 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:58:55pm

re: #69 oneisnotprime

Personally I tend toward the approach of giving commenters enough rope to hang themselves, so when I see hateful comments that are allowed to remain posted, I don't consider it an endorsement by the site they're posted on, and therefore consider the comments as reflecting poorly on the commenter but not necessarily the hosting site.

Sorry, but this is a hopelessly naive attitude to have toward blog comments. I've learned the hard way that these comments can and do affect the reputation of a website. You may say that YOU don't consider it an endorsement, but a lot of people do -- including the nutjobs who will quickly take over if you let them. By not exercising moderation over the crazies, you're giving them free reign -- and they'll take it.

79 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:58:59pm

re: #72 PAUL_MACDONALD

Plenty of the comments reposted here are by the same people. There's more than enough rope

That's fine. If this is the class of people Hot Air wants to frequent their website then they will resemble Stormfront before they know it.

80 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:59:10pm

I don't know if it means anything but I work for the US Government and I am unable to access Hot Air from a work computer due to "content". I rarely try but every so often an opinion link sends me there.

You'll all be happy to know that I have no problems accessing LGF. Thanks Charles for keeping the site clean and unblocked from government workstations.

81 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:59:24pm

re: #71 Charles

("aengus" had an account at LGF too, now blocked.)

This idea that the Tower of Babel was destroyed and the nations sundered apart is a very common theme among white supremacists of the Christian Identity stripe. They use it as justification for keeping the races apart, with "emperors" to rule over them -- because God wanted it that way.

An naturally they want to select the "emperor" for the white race from amoung their own number? Tyranny lovers, fuck 'em (in the ass with a railroad spike).

82 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 5:59:29pm

re: #70 Noam Sayin'

The thing is, it's been done against Charles, but Charles has always been good at cleaning up the radical comments - it's really one of his hallmarks. One can not exactly defend the prevalence of comments at HA. I'm disappointed for Ed and AP, and mostly for Michelle, who had to constantly combat that sort of hatred directed at herself only a few short years ago.

Got to log off for a bit. Firefox has identified an issue.

actually I could care less about Ed and his crew...I see it as a new form of entertainment as much as anything...you can't stop it, and you never know who will tumble into the pit next

83 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:00:14pm

re: #71 Charles

("aengus" had an account at LGF too, now blocked.)

This idea that the Tower of Babel was destroyed and the nations sundered apart is a very common theme among white supremacists of the Christian Identity stripe. They use it as justification for keeping the races apart, with "emperors" to rule over them -- because God wanted it that way.

I suppose they missed the part about men under an empire revolting against God? Or perhaps they also missed the bits about an age where all men draw together in peace and harmony?

*shakes head*

Thanks for clearing that up for me though. I suppose I should not have been surprised. I can easily see how they will willfully distort the verses in question and how they will justify all that garbage.

It truly is hateful.

84 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:01:29pm

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

An naturally they want to select the "emperor" for the white race from amoung their own number? Tyranny lovers, fuck 'em (in the ass with a railroad spike).

pretty graphic...I hope my 12 year old doesn't read that

85 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:01:52pm

re: #70 Noam Sayin'

I'm disappointed for Ed and AP, and mostly for Michelle, who had to constantly combat that sort of hatred directed at herself only a few short years ago.

Michelle Malkin has been associating with outright white supremacists like Peter Brimelow for many years. She has her own "contributor" page at the racist website VDARE.

Your sympathy is misplaced.

86 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:01:53pm

re: #67 LudwigVanQuixote

? As in tower of?

How was Sabbath?
Last night for a little while we steered into the Speed of Light controversy concerning physics..I posted that Dang it would be so much fun if Ludwig was here...
Regards...

87 Irenicum  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:02:33pm

re: #57 LudwigVanQuixote

You pretty much nailed with that one. And yes it is sad that anyone is out there in this day and age who believes this shit.

88 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:02:41pm

re: #77 Noam Sayin'

I'm so disappointed they'd let that vitriol continue. It's so ugly.

That is a slight misstatement. They allow "hate speech" because they cannot ascertain exactly what it is.

I wish this was a reduction ad absurdium.
It is more like a reduction ad nauseum.

89 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:03:22pm

re: #78 Charles

Sorry, but this is a hopelessly naive attitude to have toward blog comments. I've learned the hard way that these comments can and do affect the reputation of a website.

Exactly right. I regard what goes on at my blog as reflecting on me. If I let crazies run loose, then that's the kind of blog I'm running. No thanks.

90 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:04:01pm

Way, way OT:tickling a loris...

91 Splatt  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:04:01pm

That's so burnt. I hate to toot my own horn, but I'M the one who "dredged through the muck" and posted those comments earlier on another thread - the 1st Limbaugh one.

I gets no respect.

92 avanti  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:04:05pm

Sorry if this is old news, but it appears LGF has it's own comic book.


Race Detective.

93 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:04:12pm

re: #79 NJDhockeyfan

It does resemble Stormfront. I stopped commenting and visiting months ago.

Way to much "mainstreaming the fringe" as Dave Neiwert would say.

94 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:04:29pm

re: #86 HoosierHoops

How was Sabbath?
Last night for a little while we steered into the Speed of Light controversy concerning physics..I posted that Dang it would be so much fun if Ludwig was here...
Regards...

Thank you for asking. I had a lovely Shabbos.

Now what speed of light controversy?

???

95 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:05:01pm

re: #91 Splatt

That's so burnt. I hate to toot my own horn, but I'M the one who "dredged through the muck" and posted those comments earlier on another thread - the 1st Limbaugh one.

I gets no respect.

you cannot be serious

96 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:06:27pm

re: #92 avanti

Ah, man. That's just too stupid and depressing.

97 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:06:30pm

re: #94 LudwigVanQuixote

Thank you for asking. I had a lovely Shabbos.

Now what speed of light controversy?

???

is it true that you can type at nearly the speed of light?...it seems like it sometimes, maybe I shouldn't bring it up

98 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:06:48pm

re: #92 avanti

Sorry if this is old news, but it appears LGF has it's own comic book.

Race Detective.

If you're going to post links to that kind of crap, please use the Google cache link to avoid sending them traffic and increasing their pagerank.

Just go to Google and type:

cache:[site URL]

And you'll have the link.

99 jaunte  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:07:42pm

re: #92 avanti

Yet another person that has no life.

100 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:07:43pm

That's probably someone from the stalker blog, by the way.

101 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:08:12pm

re: #92 avanti
Sharmuta looks good as a blond.
She might want to dye her skin something other than blue..
No racism intended, Sharm.

102 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:08:17pm

re: #32 Charles

Killgore: which thread was this comment in? I lost it last night when Safari crashed...

This is outright neo-Nazi white supremacist stuff, and I want to add it to the post, but I couldn't find the thread.

It's in this thread., near the bottom.

103 oneisnotprime  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:09:39pm

re: #78 Charles

Fair point, but I still see this as an editorial judgment call. For example, when I was in school at Drew University they sold Mein Kampf at the college bookstore. I didn't have an issue with it ("those who don't learn from the past" etc.), but my father was offended. This isn't an exact parallel but the same principals apply--do you disinfect the hate by bringing it into the light of day, or do you not give a megaphone to it?

I think there are some potential creative solutions to these issues, such as forcing commenters to coment under their real names.

104 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:09:53pm

re: #97 albusteve

is it true that you can type at nearly the speed of light?...it seems like it sometimes, maybe I shouldn't bring it up

I ca;n bt thennn I haves many more typosss.

105 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:10:04pm

re: #92 avanti

Sorry if this is old news, but it appears LGF has it's own comic book.

Race Detective.

I saw that too. It's a sick and hateful attack on Charles, Sharmuta, Killgore, Jimmah, and iceweasel. Naturally, Rodan and his band of jerks over at The Deuce have put up a thread to praise it and mock us. The Bad Craziness gets worse by the day.

106 avanti  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:10:14pm

re: #98 Charles

If you're going to post links to that kind of crap, please use the Google cache link to avoid sending them traffic and increasing their pagerank.

Just go to Google and type:

cache:[site URL]

And you'll have the link.

Sorry, feel free to delete it my and use this one, I had no clue how to do that.

Race Detective..

107 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:10:40pm

re: #106 avanti

It's still stupid and depressing.

108 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:10:57pm

re: #94 LudwigVanQuixote

Thank you for asking. I had a lovely Shabbos.

Now what speed of light controversy?

???

I'll have to dig up the links...The whole theory in Physics that the speed of light has been slowing down since the big bang.. It explains alot of modern day observations with measurements and expansion...Of course this is a delicious conspiracy right up there with the gunman on the grassy knoll.. Physicist's hate this idea and may end up on your front porch with a shotgun..
It was a fun post..
/I hear a knock on the front door..Be right back..
*wink*

109 jaunte  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:11:25pm
We are presently in the midst of a Communist Coup D’Etat. The fact that an ignorant populace voted for it is of no import.


That's a pretty clear indication that legal elections mean nothing to that writer.

110 avanti  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:11:26pm

re: #100 Charles

That's probably someone from the stalker blog, by the way.

The link came from a Hot Air poster in the impeachment thread.

111 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:12:00pm

re: #104 LudwigVanQuixote

I ca;n bt thennn I haves many more typosss.

I've been known to drink at over mach 4...same result, so you've got nothing on my hunt and peck

112 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:12:30pm

re: #92 avanti

The concept was kinda funny but I quickly got bored reading it. They need to try harder at being funny. It's kinda like those lame Bunker parodies, the first one was kind of amusing but they made 3-4 more of them that just weren't even close to funny. I don't think I even watched the last few.

113 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:12:53pm

Crap, are there really that many loons in the US (I'm a Canuck,we have own own version)? I thought the only truly American loonie bin was FreeRepublic.

114 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:14:03pm

re: #85 Charles

Michelle Malkin has been associating with outright white supremacists like Peter Brimelow for many years. She has her own "contributor" page at the racist website VDARE.

Your sympathy is misplaced.

Perhaps. But I remember reading comments at her blog long ago, and comments at HuffPo and Kos - we remember them; the Asian "whore" theme - that were so repugnant one wouldn't think they'd be permitted at her sites.

There's been a tremendous sea-change...

115 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:14:10pm

re: #100 Charles

That's probably someone from the stalker blog, by the way.

How would they ever find something to do without your inspiration?

116 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:14:24pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

The concept was kinda funny but I quickly got bored reading it. They need to try harder at being funny. It's kinda like those lame Bunker parodies, the first one was kind of amusing but they made 3-4 more of them that just weren't even close to funny. I don't think I even watched the last few.


we could really improve it from this end, a entire thread actually...but not everyone would like it no doubt...I immediately starting goofing on it

117 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:15:35pm

re: #108 HoosierHoops

I'll have to dig up the links...The whole theory in Physics that the speed of light has been slowing down since the big bang.. It explains alot of modern day observations with measurements and expansion..

Uh, not exactly. It's the way some creationists explain away the fact that the light from distant stars has been traveling for a whole lot longer than 6,000 years to get to us. Their "theory" is that light used to move faster back then, thus Genesis is true. Doesn't work out too well, but that's true of all creationist work-arounds.

118 avanti  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:16:15pm

re: #116 albusteve


we could really improve it from this end, a entire thread actually...but not everyone would like it no doubt...I immediately starting goofing on it

Yep, a interesting concept, but poorly executed for the time involved.

119 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:16:25pm

re: #114 Noam Sayin'

Perhaps. But I remember reading comments at her blog long ago, and comments at HuffPo and Kos - we remember them; the Asian "whore" theme - that were so repugnant one wouldn't think they'd be permitted at her sites.

There's been a tremendous sea-change...

to be honest I agree that her blog and the others have dramatically changed...but I never had some cyber affinity for any of them...they pull up their pants everyday just like me

120 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:16:32pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

The concept was kinda funny but I quickly got bored reading it. They need to try harder at being funny. It's kinda like those lame Bunker parodies, the first one was kind of amusing but they made 3-4 more of them that just weren't even close to funny. I don't think I even watched the last few.

There's nothing creative about it -- there are many sites that let you put your own captions over comic strips. It's an old, tired web cliché, like those Hitler "Downfall" videos.

121 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:18:40pm

re: #119 albusteve

I have staff who pull my pants up.

*gesturing pompously*

122 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:19:13pm

Ed and AP are just postponing the inevitable. They're going to have to moderate their comments section sooner of later. Finding juicy Hot Airhead comments is easier than finding them on Dkos a few years ago. The only question is how much pain are they going to endure before they start cleaning up.

123 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:19:15pm

re: #113 b_sharp

Crap, are there really that many loons in the US (I'm a Canuck,we have own own version)? I thought the only truly American loonie bin was FreeRepublic.

Nice nick B sharp..
When I was in college i sat in the Control room at B Sharp music studios in California with Roger Buffalo on the Board..
I'd tell you who they were recording playing a guitar part on that Sunday Afternoon but It would just sound like bragging..*wink*
Nice Nic

124 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:19:33pm

re: #120 Charles

Ah, I hadn't seen it before.

125 Kragar  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:19:43pm

re: #121 Noam Sayin'

I have staff who pull my pants up.

*gesturing pompously*

I sometimes have problems pulling my pants over my staff.

/rimshot

126 Splatt  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:20:05pm

So the implication in that comic is that it's YOU guys who are actually posting the racist rants on Hot Air?! In an effort to see if they'll delete them?!

How diabolically clever. I wonder how long it took them to come up with that concept?

127 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:20:56pm

re: #121 Noam Sayin'

I have staff who pull my pants up.

*gesturing pompously*

I have a staff too, no big deal...get outa here

128 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:21:34pm
129 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:21:44pm

re: #126 Splatt

So the implication in that comic is that it's YOU guys who are actually posting the racist rants on Hot Air?! In an effort to see if they'll delete them?!

How diabolically clever. I wonder how long it took them to come up with that concept?

The Koskidz were claiming the same thing a few years ago. It seems to be an instinctive defense for idiots.

130 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:22:21pm

re: #99 jaunte Oh, yeah. The amont of time that must have taken...Definitely stayed in the basement past lunch. Mom probably brought down a sandwich and some soda.

131 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:22:25pm

re: #108 HoosierHoops

I'll have to dig up the links...The whole theory in Physics that the speed of light has been slowing down since the big bang.. It explains alot of modern day observations with measurements and expansion...Of course this is a delicious conspiracy right up there with the gunman on the grassy knoll.. Physicist's hate this idea and may end up on your front porch with a shotgun..
It was a fun post..
/I hear a knock on the front door..Be right back..
*wink*

OK, so, suppose that you were being perverse, because you were a theorist, and you decided to play with certain mathematical aspects of string theory...

It turns out that you can indeed write string theories in which the speed of light might not be constant under certain specific conditions. It is important to understand that this is a fun mathematical exercise, and that it has no basis in reality yet.

We have absolutely no evidence for c changing in any observation I am aware of. Given how well we can measure c, and for how long we have been measuring c, it puts a strong upper limit on how fast c could possibly be changing. That is to say, if it is at all, it is doing so, no more than something astonishingly small like one part in a trillion, every several billion years. I remember reading a paper on the upper limit based on observed measurements of c a few years ago when the calculations first came out. The number I just quoted is to be taken as the real number "is something like."


Short form no controversy, and I took the liberty of calling off your physicist hit squad.

132 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:22:52pm

They want to say they have a moby issue? It's a blog full of mobys then.

133 esch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:23:14pm

Mmmm. Maker's Mark.

134 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:23:17pm

re: #121 Noam Sayin'

I have staff who pull my pants up.

I'd rather have staff who pull my pants down.

135 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:23:24pm

re: #35 oneisnotprime

the point - i believe - is that they should get a damn grip, stop polluting the discourse and take steps to get rid of homophobic, racist sexist and generally obscene and biggoted commets from their site.

136 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:23:50pm

re: #128 emorykid10

13 comments in 3 years and you're "disappointed" at the topics Charles is choosing? Boo-freakin'-hoo. Do you want some cheese with that whine?

137 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:24:00pm

re: #126 Splatt

So the implication in that comic is that it's YOU guys who are actually posting the racist rants on Hot Air?! In an effort to see if they'll delete them?!

How diabolically clever. I wonder how long it took them to come up with that concept?

yes, there is an entire platoon of Killgore Trouts, cyber ninjas

138 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:24:10pm

re: #128 emorykid10

I like pissing off racists and nutbags. What's it to you?

139 jaunte  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:24:14pm

Feeelings

Youtube Video
140 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:24:19pm

re: #128 emorykid10

Karma: -17

emorykid10

(Logged in)
Registered since: Sep 23, 2006 at 3:01 pm
No. of comments posted: 13
No. of links posted: 0

That's the best post you can muster up after 12 previous ones in the last 3 years?

141 esch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:24:40pm

re: #134 carefulnow

I'd rather have staff who pull my pants down.

How about a pair of panters who...

Ehh I'm leaving that off right there.

142 Kragar  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:24:46pm

re: #132 Sharmuta

They want to say they have a moby issue? It's a blog full of mobys then.

Every post should start "Call me Ishmael."

/

143 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:24:57pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

13 comments in 3 years and you're "disappointed" at the topics Charles is choosing? Boo-freakin'-hoo. Do you want some cheese with that whine?

skip the railroad spikes please

144 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:25:15pm

First meltdown of the evening. Drink!

145 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:25:26pm

re: #117 The Curmudgeon

Uh, not exactly. It's the way some creationists explain away the fact that the light from distant stars has been traveling for a whole lot longer than 6,000 years to get to us. Their "theory" is that light used to move faster back then, thus Genesis is true. Doesn't work out too well, but that's true of all creationist work-arounds.

No no no...This has nothing to do with the creationists bullshit...
This has to do with shaving a Billion years off the record...And deals mostly with the first 200,000 years of expansion...Jeez how did we get back to 6000 year story? Honest to God I had a teacher in High School Science class tell me that if the big flood really happened that it would ruin any carbon 14 testing on Earth and the Earth could be 6k years old...
He really believed that..Yup..That was my high school science teacher

146 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:25:47pm

re: #144 Charles

First meltdown of the evening. Drink!

Done!

147 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:26:30pm

re: #137 albusteve

Any army of drunken atomic supermen that will conquer the world!

Youtube Video
148 esch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:26:37pm

re: #133 esch

Mmmm. Maker's Mark.

re: #144 Charles

First meltdown of the evening. Drink!

Way ahead of you Charles. 8)

149 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:26:38pm

re: #2 NJDhockeyfan

Thanks for going through the comments over there. I wouldn't do it.

Gosh, why would you?

150 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:27:42pm

re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Melville was jewish.
His first sentence in Moby Dick is a mistranslation;
It was supposed to be;


"Call me a schmiel".

151 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:28:08pm

re: #145 HoosierHoops

Jeez how did we get back to 6000 year story?


theres a new fad of counting back the years lived of people in the bible starting at Jebus in 0 and going back to Adam and Eve + 5 days.

152 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:28:16pm

re: #145 HoosierHoops

No no no...This has nothing to do with the creationists bullshit...

Sorry. I'm too keyed up from always dealing with creationists.

153 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:28:18pm

re: #143 albusteve

skip the railroad spikes please

OK. Sorry about that, it was uncharacteristic of me. I apologize for the offense given.

154 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:29:39pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

The test comes when they begin to purge people. As much fun as I had annoying the various nutter denizens of HA, I'm pretty sure I'd be booted before any of them.

155 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:29:43pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

Any army of drunken atomic supermen that will conquer the world!

hahaha!...I thought that was Charles for a second!

156 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:29:52pm

re: #150 swamprat

Melville was jewish.
His first sentence in Moby Dick is a mistranslation;
It was supposed to be;

"Call me a schmiel".

OK that is funny.

157 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:30:17pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

OK. Sorry about that, it was uncharacteristic of me. I apologize for the offense given.

please don't...post whatever you want

158 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:31:19pm

To go back to this foaming-at-the-mouth commenters, I wonder how many they are and how many more people think like them but a) do not use the interwebs, and/or b) lack basic computer skills.
It stops being funny when the gun-friendly paranoid delusional bunch reaches critical mass.

/Not to sound much like Beck, but I love my president (sob)... and I fear for him (sniffles).

159 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:31:52pm

An ode to the American right...

Youtube Video
160 Splatt  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:32:42pm

Want to see something funny? It's a racist screed by Malkin's buddy Peter Brimelow entitled, "Yes, It IS About Race. Quite Right, Too."

In it, he pats himself on the back for having the prescience of mind to predict that Obama's presidency would actually widen the racial divide in this country. And now that he's been more than proven right (in HIS mind, anyway) as evidenced by the antics at the tea parties and town halls this past summer, he says (in a paraphrased quote - "Let's face it, they [whites] are America."

It's the most fraudulently "high-minded" attempt at cloaking a racist rant with an air of academia that I've ever seen (and I've seen quite a few.)

[Link: www.vdare.com...]

161 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:33:20pm

Hoops did you see my physics response to ya?

162 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:34:09pm

re: #20 Charles

Yeah -- it's almost exactly like Democratic Underground -- the John Birch version.

Except I don't know that the DU ranters were rebelling against their hosts, like this crew is mutinying against Captain Ed. I wonder if he even has the time to ride herd on all those commenters, like Charles does here? Could be a runaway blog!

re: #134 carefulnow

I'd rather have staff who pull my pants down.

/insert Bill Clinton joke/

163 Kragar  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:34:19pm

I got some jackass in Singapore trying to run NMAP scans against my home network.

164 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:34:26pm

re: #159 LudwigVanQuixote

An ode to the American right...

I've thought I'd seen every Blood Sweat and Tears vid...good catch!

165 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:34:36pm

re: #131 LudwigVanQuixote

Forget string theory Ludwig...Everybody knows that light can't escape the gravity of a black hole..Right?
Image all the mass of the whole universe in a single point at the beginning of creation...For the first 200.000 years during expansion you must admit..you must admit that the speed of light was controlled by the mass of expansion during this period...
LOL Did I spin you up yet my friend?
Regards...

166 Reginald Perrin  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:35:11pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

Martinez from the douche pulled that trick a few times last year, he would use a sock to make an outrageous comment at Think Progress and then report it on Odom's TPwatch blog 10 minutes later.

167 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:35:23pm

re: #160 Splatt

Here's more Brimelow at front page with White Nationalism: A Symposium. Also staring racist Jared Taylor.

168 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:35:28pm

re: #12 Ludwigvanquixote

I'm entertained how the Nazis moved from just being leftists to greenies...

I mean like yeah, those Krupp works and slave labor camps were models of eco-friendly...

I suppose it is a natural progression of the insane Jonah Goldberg meme. However, it does not make it any less insane.

I am also interested how a bunch of white supremacist, racist, bastards who like to talk about secession get to call others treasonous and nazi.

I'm about fully fed up with these loons.

I can not describe how freaking enraged I am by these trivial nazi comparisons. It's like every Tom, Dick & Harry you don't agree with are nazis. In my opinion, this trivializing of the Holocaust is just as disgusting as denial of the Holocaust. If it's so freaking easy to become "nazi" then Hitler & Co. couldn't have been all that bad, could they?

169 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:35:49pm

re: #162 The Sanity Inspector

Heh.

170 esch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:36:23pm

re: #163 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I got some jackass in Singapore trying to run NMAP scans against my home network.

I shudder every time I take a gander at my logs. My firewall has never been breached though.

171 Kragar  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:37:25pm

re: #170 esch

I shudder every time I take a gander at my logs. My firewall has never been breached though.

Same here, but he is catching me in a sweep every 5 minutes right now. tracked his provider down using WHOIS and filing a complaint with them right now

172 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:37:48pm

re: #165 HoosierHoops

Forget string theory Ludwig...Everybody knows that light can't escape the gravity of a black hole..Right?
Image all the mass of the whole universe in a single point at the beginning of creation...For the first 200.000 years during expansion you must admit..you must admit that the speed of light was controlled by the mass of expansion during this period...
LOL Did I spin you up yet my friend?
Regards...

LOL..

Ok, no one knows how to explain the expansion that I know of. The answer is we do not f'n know.

173 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:37:49pm

re: #163 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I got some jackass in Singapore trying to run NMAP scans against my home network.

SHOOT YER NETWORK.

174 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:37:52pm

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

I saw that too. It's a sick and hateful attack on Charles, Sharmuta, Killgore, Jimmah, and iceweasel. Naturally, Rodan and his band of jerks over at The Deuce have put up a thread to praise it and mock us. The Bad Craziness gets worse by the day.

It's stalker porn...

175 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:38:02pm

I like this one too:

I’m not a religious man. In fact, I’m an atheist.
But, I was put on this Earth, in this Nation, at this time in history, only to give warning.
That some ignore the warning phazes me not at all. That most Americans will never get the warning, and would disregard it if they did, bothers me a great deal.
Let those who have ears hear; Let those who have eyes see; and let those who would fiddle as Rome burns, themselves burn in Hell for eternity.
Thatisall.

So... an atheist condemns "those who fiddle as Rome burns" to "burn in Hell for eternity"??

That nutto commenter is as much an atheist as Christopher Hitchens is an evangelical Christian.

176 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:38:21pm

re: #170 esch

I shudder every time I take a gander at my logs. My firewall has never been breached though.

Is that what you kids are calling it nowadays?

177 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:38:55pm

re: #168 Alouette

I can not describe how freaking enraged I am by these trivial nazi comparisons. It's like every Tom, Dick & Harry you don't agree with are nazis. In my opinion, this trivializing of the Holocaust is just as disgusting as denial of the Holocaust. If it's so freaking easy to become "nazi" then Hitler & Co. couldn't have been all that bad, could they?

Oh no doubt. I've said the same here a dozen times. My family members weren't murdered so semi-literate fools could blather points in their rants.

178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:38:58pm

re: #174 talon_262

Not a fat guy in it anywhere. Sigh.

179 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:39:12pm

Songs for the flouncers...and some advice

Youtube Video

Sniff.

180 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:39:23pm

re: #174 talon_262

I'll say. Did you see "ice"?

181 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:39:28pm

re: #166 Reginald Perrin

Martinez from the douche pulled that trick a few times last year, he would use a sock to make an outrageous comment at Think Progress and then report it on Odom's TPwatch blog 10 minutes later.

"I cried because I had no shoes...
til I met a man who had no socks"

182 esch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:39:47pm

re: #176 MandyManners

Is that what you kids are calling it nowadays?

LMAO

183 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:39:56pm

re: #168 Alouette

Spot on, Alouette.
Cheers.

184 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:39:57pm

Palate cleansing:

Arthur C. Clarke, Carl Sagan, and Stephen Hawking, talking about "God, the Universe, and Everything Else."

Youtube Video
185 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:40:01pm

re: #123 HoosierHoops

Nice nick B sharp..
When I was in college i sat in the Control room at B Sharp music studios in California with Roger Buffalo on the Board..
I'd tell you who they were recording playing a guitar part on that Sunday Afternoon but It would just sound like bragging..*wink*
Nice Nic

I've used that nic for quite a few years. Search FreeRepublic for it. I was there when they booted out all the scientists.

OK, now I'm curious. I'm a guitarist, so I tend to think of fellow guitarists as the best musicians. Who was it recording (I won't tell anyone about your bragging) ?

186 SFGoth  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:40:04pm

Can we STOP with the "impeach Obama" nonsense? He hasn't done anything impeachable. Vote-outable, sure, but man! It's getting to be where "impeach" is tossed around like U.S. currency to the point of near worthlessness. When did this great country fall apart?

187 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:41:21pm

re: #160 Splatt

Want to see something funny? It's a racist screed by Malkin's buddy Peter Brimelow entitled, "Yes, It IS About Race. Quite Right, Too."

In it, he pats himself on the back for having the prescience of mind to predict that Obama's presidency would actually widen the racial divide in this country. And now that he's been more than proven right (in HIS mind, anyway) as evidenced by the antics at the tea parties and town halls this past summer, he says (in a paraphrased quote - "Let's face it, they [whites] are America."

It's the most fraudulently "high-minded" attempt at cloaking a racist rant with an air of academia that I've ever seen (and I've seen quite a few.)

[Link: www.vdare.com...]

Good catch. I can't help but smile when I read that, because it makes me think of expatriate curmudgeon Fred Reed. He holds many of the same extreme attitudes, except that he lives in Mexico, and holds that country and the people superior to America.

188 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:42:10pm

re: #181 albusteve

Who makes a secret sock?
Schizophrenics who need a friend?

189 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:43:07pm

re: #172 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL..

Ok, no one knows how to explain the expansion that I know of. The answer is we do not f'n know.

I love the way all these new ideas always coming back to proving the "bible."

190 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:43:24pm

re: #186 SFGoth

Can we STOP with the "impeach Obama" nonsense? He hasn't done anything impeachable. Vote-outable, sure, but man! It's getting to be where "impeach" is tossed around like U.S. currency to the point of near worthlessness. When did this great country fall apart?

it hasn't fallen apart...we are taking on a bit of water tho, but hey!
a little disagreement here and there is no big deal...it's a matter of degrees like everything else

191 Kragar  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:43:37pm

re: #173 MandyManners

SHOOT YER NETWORK.

I do this shit for a living. Some little shit is going to end up having a really bad day.

192 b_sharp  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:43:55pm

re: #152 The Curmudgeon

Sorry. I'm too keyed up from always dealing with creationists.

You don't say.

Remind me, how long have you been doing it? 50 years?

I'm following you bud. ;->

193 Danny  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:43:59pm

OT: CNN just said charges will be filed against balloon boy's dad. Looks like you were right about the publicity stunt thing, Charles.

194 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:44:17pm

re: #175 mikhailtheplumber

I like this one too:

So... an atheist condemns "those who fiddle as Rome burns" to "burn in Hell for eternity"??

That nutto commenter is as much an atheist as Christopher Hitchens is an evangelical Christian.

Well said. That comment struck me as bizarre as well. It's definitely not something a true blue atheist would even think of saying.

195 simoom  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:44:27pm

I wonder how it feels for Ed and AP, having watched Hot Air become little more than another Free Republic. I can't imagine they're too happy about it.

196 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:45:03pm

hey Night Lizards!

I remember a lot of "impeach Bush" -- I don't remember a lot of lefty's telling their peers to cut-it-out. Didn't they even hold a mock trial in the Capital--and decide it wouldn't work?

I've heard the Tower of Babal bortsh before. I don't get it.

How are you-all?

197 Hector1980  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:45:38pm

I'm sure it has been pointed out before, but Obama Derangement Syndrome is exactly like Bush Derangement Syndrome.

Leftists nuts claimed Bush was an evil and criminal mastermind manipulating terrorists attacks and wars, while at the same time a functional retard who couldn't tie his own shoes.

Now, right wing nutjobs claim Obama is perniciously destroying the country and the liberties of the people, while being an intellectual lightweight who hasn't done anything in his time in office.

Pick a line, people. They are either Evil Geniuses or Dumb Idiots. They can't be both.

198 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:46:09pm

re: #188 swamprat

Who makes a secret sock?
Schizophrenics who need a friend?

for real...I think it is very uncool...I've posted here and there for many years and never even considered it...it's how you're wired I think...I've been wiped out a few times but it was me, not some cheezy aler ego...socks are not...manly

199 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:46:17pm

re: #172 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL..

Ok, no one knows how to explain the expansion that I know of. The answer is we do not f'n know.

LOL
A couple of years ago over at Dr. Pamela Gay's web site they were discussing this and I posted that The universe was nothing more than a soap bubble in God's kitchen sink.. Head's exploded.. Pam goes ' Did you really have to say that Hoopster? 'yup you just got a thousand hits..Thank me later'
It's really fun to spin up geniuses about science...Not in a mean way
But really..On certain science blogs I'm like Spacejesus...
Spacejesus=Hoosierhoops LOL
Don't judge me!

200 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:46:20pm

re: #193 Danny

OT: CNN just said charges will be filed against balloon boy's dad. Looks like you were right about the publicity stunt thing, Charles.

Too bad it's not a felony. Lives were put at risk.

201 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:47:42pm

re: #189 Bagua

I love the way all these new ideas always coming back to proving the "bible."

Actually this is in specific the expansion phase of the of the early universe, not the Big Bang itself.

202 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:47:56pm

re: #200 Bagua

Too bad it's not a felony. Lives were put at risk.

You could say that about a lot of drivers --just having them on the road puts a lot of lives at risk.

203 esch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:48:01pm

Earlier I heard an amazing thing.

I actually witnessed a female say 'my butt's too big for that'.

204 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:48:01pm

re: #193 Danny

OT: CNN just said charges will be filed against balloon boy's dad. Looks like you were right about the publicity stunt thing, Charles.

did not follow the story, but CO is very strict about search and rescue...they bill you for being stupid...don't know if that applies here...jus sayin

205 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:48:45pm

re: #197 Hector1980

BDS took much longer to infect people. ODS was going strong before he even took the oath.

206 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:48:53pm

re: #198 albusteve

Well, I enjoy a nice quiche and if I had a sock, it would be a hoot.

bye. dog is calling

207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:49:04pm

re: #203 esch

Uh... that was me.

I have a pretty high speaking voice.

208 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:49:24pm

re: #193 Danny

OT: CNN just said charges will be filed against balloon boy's dad. Looks like you were right about the publicity stunt thing, Charles.

Something that has not been covered at all.. Our local radio station said that the first phone call out of the house was not to 911. It was to a local TV station in Fort Collins...If true that is damning

209 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:49:37pm

re: #205 PAUL_MACDONALD

history rewind...

(just a recommendation)

210 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:49:48pm

re: #199 HoosierHoops

LOL
A couple of years ago over at Dr. Pamela Gay's web site they were discussing this and I posted that The universe was nothing more than a soap bubble in God's kitchen sink.. Head's exploded.. Pam goes ' Did you really have to say that Hoopster? 'yup you just got a thousand hits..Thank me later'
It's really fun to spin up geniuses about science...Not in a mean way
But really..On certain science blogs I'm like Spacejesus...
Spacejesus=Hoosierhoops LOL
Don't judge me!

I wasn't judging. It's a super valid question. I assure you that the first one to figure it out gets a trip to Sweden to meet the queen and pick up a little cash.

If you figure it out, umm... mail it to me first, tell no one, so I can check it for math errors... yeah that's right.

What intrigues me just as much is the question of order in the early universe.

211 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:50:19pm

re: #205 PAUL_MACDONALD

BDS took much longer to infect people. ODS was going strong before he even took the oath.

Quite Concur.

212 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:50:21pm

Watching this History special on Crime Wave: 18-Months of Crime Wave. It's about the Gangsters, Dillinger, Hoover and the FBI, etc.

At this time, the Depression, Banking Crisis, Drought, Dust Bowl, Locusts from Canada --I can only imagine the biblical misconstruction that abounded.

213 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:50:21pm

re: #210 LudwigVanQuixote

meant in the context of how do we still have so much structure in teh universe 13+ billion years later.

214 esch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:50:21pm

re: #207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Uh... that was me.

I have a pretty high speaking voice.

Heh.

215 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:50:54pm

I appreciate the importance of the first amendment and the court protection of anonymous speech, but is this kind of unmoderated anonymous racist hate-mongering directed specifically at the President really deserving of carte blanche protection?

216 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:51:26pm

Some music that I find awesome and I hope others will too. This is not a cello BTW it is a viol de gamba.

Youtube Video
217 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:51:27pm

re: #200 Bagua

Too bad it's not a felony. Lives were put at risk.

And, resources wasted.

218 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:51:41pm

anybody wanna dance?
some cool Texas twang


Youtube Video
219 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:52:03pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

I appreciate the importance of the first amendment and the court protection of anonymous speech, but is this kind of unmoderated anonymous racist hate-mongering directed specifically at the President really deserving of carte blanche protection?

I don't think it does. I think I remember something about the Secret Service or the FBI questioning people who threatened the POTUS's life.

220 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:52:05pm

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

I saw that too. It's a sick and hateful attack on Charles, Sharmuta, Killgore, Jimmah, and iceweasel. Naturally, Rodan and his band of jerks over at The Deuce have put up a thread to praise it and mock us. The Bad Craziness gets worse by the day.

Let it be noted that the cesspit creeps are too sad and boring to even think about making a cartoon about. And at the end of the day, what are they trying to mock us for? For taking steps to eject extremist and idiotarian trash. Yeah, mock-worthy indeed!

(the LGF community shall now hang it's head in collective shame)///

221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:52:10pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

re: #205 PAUL_MACDONALD

I Bush had not "stolen" the 2000 election, I'd be very inclined to say "Uh huh".

222 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:52:21pm

re: #197 Hector1980

I

Pick a line, people. They are either Evil Geniuses or Dumb Idiots. They can't be both.

No, no, no, Bush was the idiot. It was Cheney that was the Evil Genius. That's why we didn't dare impeach Bush...

///

But yeah, there'd be times I'd be almost foaming at the mouth about them too but I'd usually catch myself, say to the mirror that there's the real idiot & carry on.

William

223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:52:41pm

re: #218 albusteve

Love Delbert!

224 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:52:42pm

SONY® has just notified me that their laptop batteries suck.

BBL

225 Hector1980  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:52:49pm

re: #205 PAUL_MACDONALD

BDS took much longer to infect people. ODS was going strong before he even took the oath.

Indeed. ODS is more virulent. But at their core, they are the same.

226 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:53:01pm

re: #203 esch

Earlier I heard an amazing thing.

I actually witnessed a female say 'my butt's too big for that'.

Earlier I overheard one woman giving another advice on a relationship:

"Girl, you got to remember you're just starting out. Trust me, he's going to do a lot of things that annoy you. A LOT."

"oh, he already is."

heh.

227 lurking faith  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:53:03pm

re: #205 PAUL_MACDONALD

BDS took much longer to infect people. ODS was going strong before he even took the oath.

You don't think all the fuss about "stealing the election" was BDS?

228 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:53:19pm

re: #209 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, there was plenty of partisan garbage. It took until the end of 2001 before the left went utterly insane. ODS happened before the inauguration. Happened in the primaries.

229 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:53:39pm

re: #208 HoosierHoops

Something that has not been covered at all.. Our local radio station said that the first phone call out of the house was not to 911. It was to a local TV station in Fort Collins...If true that is damning

While The Kid was sick with H1N1, I got the chance to actually watch some trash TV and saw the episode of tht Wife-Swap show featuring that family. They put the "func" in disfunction.

230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:53:52pm

re: #218 albusteve

1. He looks like George Jones
2. They say he taught Lennon how to play harmonica... (not sure I believe it)

231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:54:18pm

re: #227 lurking faith

You don't think all the fuss about "stealing the election" was BDS?

S'what I'm sayin...

232 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:54:20pm

re: #212 ggt

Watching this History special on Crime Wave: 18-Months of Crime Wave. It's about the Gangsters, Dillinger, Hoover and the FBI, etc.

At this time, the Depression, Banking Crisis, Drought, Dust Bowl, Locusts from Canada --I can only imagine the biblical misconstruction that abounded.

You'll like it, it's very good.

233 Kragar  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:54:36pm

Cool. Within 5 minutes of reporting him to his ISP, the attacks stop.

234 lurking faith  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:54:59pm

re: #221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
GMTA

235 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:55:28pm

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

You'll like it, it's very good.

I don't know, family is watching it. I'm pretty tired of Gansta' stuff. Seems like it is always on--pulls ratings, I suppose. I have it on in the background. I do like how they show how it all happened within the time-line.

236 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:55:30pm

re: #228 PAUL_MACDONALD

We remember it differently. That's okay Paul. Thanks for coming halfway.

By the way, Hiya Paul.

237 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:55:43pm

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Love Delbert!

hell YEAH!

238 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:55:51pm

re: #218 albusteve

anybody wanna dance?
some cool Texas twang

[Video]

I bought James Cottons Album playing the Georgia swing for 99 cents at the local drug store when I was a kid...discount rack..
Hard to believe his talent was on the discount rack..
James was a genius on harp

239 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:55:55pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

I appreciate the importance of the first amendment and the court protection of anonymous speech, but is this kind of unmoderated anonymous racist hate-mongering directed specifically at the President really deserving of carte blanche protection?

Most deserving. Occupational hazard of being president.

It's also why it's so important for reasonable people to call this stuff out and do everything they can to tamp it down and get as far away from it as possible.

240 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:56:22pm

re: #228 PAUL_MACDONALD

The other difference at least for some was that BDS didn't take place until after we discovered all the scary stuff he was letting Cheney and Rumsfeld get away with.

I didn't really start getting pissed off and angry until after I started learning more about the shenanigans pulled to justify the Iraq War, the warrantless wire taps, and the torture.

I never thought he was the brightest bulb in the box, but I think a lot of us center left types were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until he started really doing stupid stupid shit.

241 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:56:29pm

re: #220 Jimmah

Let it be noted that the cesspit creeps are too sad and boring to even think about making a cartoon about. And at the end of the day, what are they trying to mock us for? For taking steps to eject extremist and idiotarian trash. Yeah, mock-worthy indeed!

(the LGF community shall now hang it's head in collective shame)///

Let it further be noted that they portray us as superheroes. lol.

Mockery fail.

(does say a lot about their obsessions, though)

242 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:56:33pm

An extremely interesting talk on "dangerous memes": [Link: www.ted.com...]

The same guy on evolution by means of natural selection vs. intelligent design:[Link: www.ted.com...]

243 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:56:37pm

re: #235 ggt

I don't know, family is watching it. I'm pretty tired of Gansta' stuff. Seems like it is always on--pulls ratings, I suppose. I have it on in the background. I do like how they show how it all happened within the time-line.

I can't find it on the History Channel. Did you Tivo it?

244 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:57:01pm

re: #230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

1. He looks like George Jones
2. They say he taught Lennon how to play harmonica... (not sure I believe it)

it's almost true, yep...I've run across that myth several times...I believe it

245 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:57:20pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

I appreciate the importance of the first amendment and the court protection of anonymous speech, but is this kind of unmoderated anonymous racist hate-mongering directed specifically at the President really deserving of carte blanche protection?

Yes. Even though it makes the president and his party stronger, by making all opposition seem witless.

(To argue that the Nobel peace prize award is unconstitutional misses the whole point of the Constitution. That document is OUR law. Not Norway's. Norway can do whatever it pleases. It can even make a foolish statement and hand out Nobel prizes to guys who haven't done anything concrete to earn the award.)

246 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:57:23pm

re: #243 Dark_Falcon

I can't find it on the History Channel. Did you Tivo it?

re: #243 Dark_Falcon

I can't find it on the History Channel. Did you Tivo it?

It's a DVD. rented or purchased, I don't know.

247 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:57:27pm

re: #238 HoosierHoops

That album was produced by Todd Rundgren! Whitest guy ever to produce a great blues album?

248 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:58:05pm

re: #237 albusteve

Teeny tiny bar, three miles from my house. Delbert has played there.

I found out a couple of weeks later and... well... had to change pants.

249 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:58:24pm

re: #238 HoosierHoops

I bought James Cottons Album playing the Georgia swing for 99 cents at the local drug store when I was a kid...discount rack..
Hard to believe his talent was on the discount rack..
James was a genius on harp

there were a couple of grand daddys...he was one for sure

250 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:58:29pm

re: #246 ggt

It's a DVD. rented or purchased, I don't know.

Cool, enjoy!

251 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:58:30pm

re: #245 lostlakehiker

Yes. Even though it makes the president and his party stronger, by making all opposition seem witless.

(To argue that the Nobel peace prize award is unconstitutional misses the whole point of the Constitution. That document is OUR law. Not Norway's. Norway can do whatever it pleases. It can even make a foolish statement and hand out Nobel prizes to guys who haven't done anything concrete to earn the award.)

I truly don't understand that level of stupid.

252 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:58:38pm

re: #233 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Cool. Within 5 minutes of reporting him to his ISP, the attacks stop.

BAM!!!

/just like Emeril

253 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:58:44pm
a lot of us center left types

Wait a minute...who?

254 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:59:01pm

re: #248 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Teeny tiny bar, three miles from my house. Delbert has played there.

I found out a couple of weeks later and... well... had to change pants.

did you have a staff?

255 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:59:07pm

re: #241 iceweasel

Let it further be noted that they portray us as superheroes. lol.

Mockery fail.

(does say a lot about their obsessions, though)

Indeed it does.

Youtube Video
256 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:59:23pm

re: #253 carefulnow

Got another one of those center left types right here!

257 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:59:25pm

re: #253 carefulnow

Hey there's more than one!

258 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 6:59:35pm

re: #254 albusteve

Rim shot!

259 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:00:13pm

re: #167 Sharmuta

Here's more Brimelow at front page with White Nationalism: A Symposium. Also staring racist Jared Taylor.

Note, though, that the article is concerned with how to deflect the growing appeal of white nationalism. FrontPageMag is David Horowitz's baby, and no one can truthfully accuse him of racism.

260 simoom  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:00:24pm

re: #196 ggt

Didn't they even hold a mock trial in the Capital--and decide it wouldn't work?

That reminds me of the birther "Citizens Grand Jury"s they've held around the country where they review their birther evidence and then invariably find the President guilty of treason. Then they irate/baffle their local representatives and law enforcement officials by serving them with their findings.

Eventually they got irritated enough with no one arresting President Obama or whatever it is they fantasize about happening, so a bunch of them went down to DC and served their papers to some Congress-critters:

Youtube Video
261 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:00:30pm

Now that hot air has stacy mccain, I think we'll see a lot more comments that touch on Christian Identity movement themes. I guess you could say a lot of hot air comes before a stormfront.

262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:00:37pm

re: #254 albusteve

did you have a staff?

Well, a woody. But, that's not important right now...

263 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:01:10pm

re: #256 bratwurst

Got another one of those center left types right here!


But see, we don't exist to the far right any more than reasonable center right people exist to the far left.

The problem is that all the problems usually get solved in the center rather than at the ends.

264 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:01:25pm

re: #240 PT Barnum

The other difference at least for some was that BDS didn't take place until after we discovered all the scary stuff he was letting Cheney and Rumsfeld get away with.

I didn't really start getting pissed off and angry until after I started learning more about the shenanigans pulled to justify the Iraq War, the warrantless wire taps, and the torture.

I never thought he was the brightest bulb in the box, but I think a lot of us center left types were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until he started really doing stupid stupid shit.

Same here. Erosion of civil liberties, unprecedented expansion of the power of the executive branch, torture... But some on the left who hated when Bush did those things have fallen pretty silent about Obama's decisions to continue many of those policies, or even expand them.

265 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:01:40pm

re: #256 bratwurst

Well, I'll be...

266 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:02:10pm

re: #262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You killed it.

267 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:02:13pm

re: #256 bratwurst

re: #257 PT Barnum

Hey there's more than one!

More than two! *waves*

268 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:02:20pm

Delbert's on the road...lovin the life...yo

Youtube Video
269 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:02:21pm

re: #261 Sharmuta

Now that hot air has stacy mccain, I think we'll see a lot more comments that touch on Christian Identity movement themes. I guess you could say a lot of hot air comes before a stormfront.

Probably. It's pretty much an invitation. Malkin is still posting stuff at VDare so I guess the Welcome sign for racists has been out for a while now.

270 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:02:24pm

re: #262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, a woody. But, that's not important right now...

...and don't call me Shirley.

271 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:02:45pm

re: #244 albusteve

it's almost true, yep...I've run across that myth several times...I believe it

WIKI SUCKS!

272 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:02:48pm

re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

S'what I'm sayin...


re: #236 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

We remember it differently. That's okay Paul. Thanks for coming halfway.

By the way, Hiya Paul.

At the the time of the election weirdness, BDS was confined to people who spent their days making paper mache heads for protests. It wasn't mainstream until months after 9-11.

Needs a scale of some sort. Does "9-11 was an inside job" compare to "Indonesian Kenyan Marxist Non American Muslim"? and if so, which is crazier?

And good evening to you.

273 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:03:00pm

re: #265 carefulnow

Who do you think is taking the place of the daily flouncers anyway? ;-)

274 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:03:06pm

re: #259 The Sanity Inspector

Note, though, that the article is concerned with how to deflect the growing appeal of white nationalism. FrontPageMag is David Horowitz's baby, and no one can truthfully accuse him of racism.

Also note that the "racialists" like Brimelow and Sailer are very cunningly and very deliberately reversing the stereotypes, and doing everything they can to appear as if they're not white supremacists. It's a strategy to legitimize their views.

275 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:03:13pm

re: #247 bratwurst

That album was produced by Todd Rundgren! Whitest guy ever to produce a great blues album?

I dunno..As a kid in the 70's Todd was one of the coolest dudes alive...
We gotta get you a woman! The memories are just flooding back...
I Loved the 70's..As a kid I played Eric Carmen's shit a million times...
DJ! Spin that Shit!

276 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:03:39pm

re: #264 iceweasel

It bothers me that Obama hasn't backed off of some of those policies more forthrightly. But on the other hand, imagine the frothing at the mouth that would go on if he did?

Just saying we weren't going to torture anymore, brought out Darth Cheney to say he was endangering national security.

277 esch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:04:05pm

re: #263 PT Barnum

But see, we don't exist to the far right any more than reasonable center right people exist to the far left.

The problem is that all the problems usually get solved in the center rather than at the ends.

Been saying something like that for decades.

278 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:04:21pm

re: #273 bratwurst

There goes the neighborhood!

280 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:04:53pm

re: #275 HoosierHoops

Just saw him debut "A Wizard, A True Star" live on stage last month...23rd time I've seen him, but probably the best!

281 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:05:20pm

I just cannot read a lot of this shit from Hot Air, and shit from other blogs. The hate gets me down and, it gets me mad.

Perhaps that is a good thing,though, in that it keeps me on an even keel as I judge BHO's actions and words and draw conclusions therefrom. I despise the man's politics.

282 Ojoe  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:05:21pm

From the comments:

People forget that the Nazis were “green freaks” just like the “progressive” nut jobs we have now. The Volkswagen was just as much of a “green machine” as anything that Obama and his idiots would come up with. It’s “green design” was part of the deal.

Right. The volkswagen engine is a carburetted stinker which keeps running and running even when out of tune and almost worn out, spewing huge amounts of pollution all the while. The people on air resource boards hate the volkswagen engine with a passion.

283 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:05:23pm

re: #276 PT Barnum

It bothers me that Obama hasn't backed off of some of those policies more forthrightly. But on the other hand, imagine the frothing at the mouth that would go on if he did?

Just saying we weren't going to torture anymore, brought out Darth Cheney to say he was endangering national security.

No kidding. And the extremely lowlevel figures targeted by the Holder prosecutions (which is all about asscovering anyway) are bringing out screams that Obama wants to destroy the intelligence community and loves the terrorists. Same with Gitmo.

284 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:05:28pm

re: #272 PAUL_MACDONALD

At the the time of the election weirdness, BDS was confined to people who spent their days making paper mache heads for protests. It wasn't mainstream until months after 9-11.

Needs a scale of some sort. Does "9-11 was an inside job" compare to "Indonesian Kenyan Marxist Non American Muslim"? and if so, which is crazier?

And good evening to you.

I'll go with 911 was an inside job to being crazier.

Maybe I'm partisan.

285 lurking faith  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:06:05pm

What? There are leftists posting here? What has happened to my beautiful LGF? Oh, noes!
/

286 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:06:32pm

re: #278 carefulnow

Never fear, I am pro-Israel and not a "truther"...and I promise to retract my horns any time I see you online.

287 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:06:48pm

re: #284 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No, you're just right.

288 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:07:23pm

re: #286 bratwurst

Heh.

289 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:07:26pm

re: #280 bratwurst

I met a Rundgren fan once in a bar. He just started talking about him. Has seen him about a trillion times.

Actually, was really interesting... he knew his shit...

290 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:07:39pm

re: #275 HoosierHoops

I dunno..As a kid in the 70's Todd was one of the coolest dudes alive...
We gotta get you a woman! The memories are just flooding back...
I Loved the 70's..As a kid I played Eric Carmen's shit a million times...
DJ! Spin that Shit!

Here you go:

Youtube Video
291 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:07:39pm

re: #274 Charles

Also note that the "racialists" like Brimelow and Sailer are very cunningly and very deliberately reversing the stereotypes, and doing everything they can to appear as if they're not white supremacists. It's a strategy to legitimize their views.

One of the things that has allowed them to be successful is hitching onto issues like immigration reform and the "counter-jihad". Instead of supporting these issues on their merits, they've debased these issues into one about race and religion- the perfect marriage for Christian Nationalists.

292 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:07:49pm

re: #274 Charles

Also note that the "racialists" like Brimelow and Sailer are very cunningly and very deliberately reversing the stereotypes...

racism to acialism = creation to intelligent design.

Not comparing the two, comparing the 'redefinition and re-invention' of a concept that was on it's way out or being marginalized, washed clean, then reintroduced.

293 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:07:54pm

Glenn Beck is planning to feature lunatic climate denier/fraud Christopher Monckton this coming week: Glenn Beck (glennbeck) on Twitter

Many emails on: [Link: bit.ly...] I will reach out to L. Monckton and others for Mon. Radio/tv.

294 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:08:11pm

re: #264 iceweasel

Same here. Erosion of civil liberties, unprecedented expansion of the power of the executive branch, torture... But some on the left who hated when Bush did those things have fallen pretty silent about Obama's decisions to continue many of those policies, or even expand them.

Spot on.

295 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:09:05pm

re: #284 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The depths that had to be plumbed to justify the irrational hatred came faster and infected more mainstream conservatives than BDS ever could have hoped for.

296 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:09:10pm

re: #283 iceweasel

I think Holder is trying to avoid the circus freak show that would be let loose by going after the real culprits.

I think going after the low level guys could be a strategy to then use that to go after the next level up and so forth, but I'm probably engaging in wishful thinking.

I think Cheney is probably the mastermind, but I don't know if that will ever come to light in any conclusive way, unfortunately.

297 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:09:20pm

re: #281 MandyManners

I just cannot read a lot of this shit from Hot Air, and shit from other blogs. The hate gets me down and, it gets me mad.

Perhaps that is a good thing,though, in that it keeps me on an even keel as I judge BHO's actions and words and draw conclusions therefrom. I despise the man's politics.

As do I Mandy. But unlike those at Hot Air, we stay sane while despising Obama's actions.

298 esch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:09:23pm

re: #283 iceweasel

No kidding. And the extremely lowlevel figures targeted by the Holder prosecutions (which is all about asscovering anyway) are bringing out screams that Obama wants to destroy the intelligence community and loves the terrorists. Same with Gitmo.

Well, he may not WANT to, but that is what he will accomplish.

299 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:09:51pm

re: #285 lurking faith

What? There are leftists posting here? What has happened to my beautiful LGF? Oh, noes!
/

"And I hope that you can forgive us..."

Youtube Video
300 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:09:53pm

re: #293 Charles

Glenn Beck is planning to feature lunatic climate denier/fraud Christopher Monckton this coming week: Glenn Beck (glennbeck) on Twitter

IIRC I saw Monckton writing something somwhere about how the Copenhagen trip will result in America signing away her soverignty or some such bizarro conspiracy theory. I'll see if I can find it. Makes him a natural loon for Beck.

301 Hector1980  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:09:57pm

That poll Charles quoted, and the replies at Hot Air are interesting.

First, it's not OUTRAGEOUS™ at all. Poll citizens of most countries about their emigrants and they will answer more or less like that.

Second, it appears as if most commentators at Hot Air either just read the headlines, or have the reading comprehension of a 6 year old child. They polled *mexicans* living in *Mexico*. They can't quite "Go back to Mexico" if they are living in Mexico.

302 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:10:11pm

re: #260 simoom

That reminds me of the birther "Citizens Grand Jury"s they've held around the country where they review their birther evidence and then invariably find the President guilty of treason. Then they irate/baffle their local representatives and law enforcement officials by serving them with their findings.

Eventually they got irritated enough with no one arresting President Obama or whatever it is they fantasize about happening, so a bunch of them went down to DC and served their papers to some Congress-critters:

Sounds like some "People's Court" stunt I read about in The Progressive or The Nation or some such, back in the 80s. They were putting the FBI on trial for something or other.

303 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:10:13pm

re: #279 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Whaaa?

A persistent urban legend holds that McClinton taught John Lennon to play the harmonica, resulting in the sound heard on The Beatles' hit "Love Me Do"; the two did meet, but Lennon already knew how to play the harmonica. Delbert is also an accomplished pianist.

Oh. Sorry.

Wiki don't mean shit...when it comes down to it there are many myths and legends about musicians and their cross contacts...believe what you will, but it's true when Kieth Richards finally met Chuck Berry...Berry punched him in the face

304 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:12:04pm

re: #302 The Sanity Inspector

Is it the new Passion Play? Sounds creepy as hell.

305 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:12:31pm

re: #275 HoosierHoops

I dunno..As a kid in the 70's Todd was one of the coolest dudes alive...
We gotta get you a woman! The memories are just flooding back...
I Loved the 70's..As a kid I played Eric Carmen's shit a million times...
DJ! Spin that Shit!

Power Pop Forever!

Youtube Video
306 esch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:13:02pm

re: #303 albusteve

...but it's true when Kieth Richards finally met Chuck Berry...Berry punched him in the face

Don't understand that one. I understand Berry liked to get shitfaced from time to time too...

/RIMshot

307 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:13:02pm

Delbert covers John Hiatt...

Youtube Video
308 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:13:23pm

re: #305 The Sanity Inspector

re: #305 The Sanity Inspector

What I found somewhat of a cognative disonance was him taking Ric Ocasek's place in a revamped Cars lineup.

309 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:13:38pm

re: #296 PT Barnum

I think Holder is trying to avoid the circus freak show that would be let loose by going after the real culprits.

I think going after the low level guys could be a strategy to then use that to go after the next level up and so forth, but I'm probably engaging in wishful thinking.

I think Cheney is probably the mastermind, but I don't know if that will ever come to light in any conclusive way, unfortunately.

I hope such a plan fails. I don't want even one American to suffer for having tortured a terrorist. The enhanced interrogation measures were needed to gain critical information.

310 amused  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:14:09pm

In the beginning there was nothing.

And then it exploded.

311 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:14:29pm

re: #293 Charles

Ah yes, the "Lord" who likes to portray himself as having something to do with Parliament, though he doesn't.

If you ever highlight him (say his appearance on Beck), be sure to spotlight his history of idiocies wrt. AIDS. AGW-denialism isn't his first trip around the block.

312 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:14:34pm

re: #304 PAUL_MACDONALD

Is it the new Passion Play? Sounds creepy as hell.

I messed up the blockquote. Only that last paragraph was mine.

313 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:14:38pm

re: #310 amused

In the beginning there was nothing.

And then it exploded.

proof a man invented the universe?

314 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:15:03pm

re: #293 Charles

Glenn Beck is planning to feature lunatic climate denier/fraud Christopher Monckton this coming week: Glenn Beck (glennbeck) on Twitter

Great... no doubt the tabloid journalist will become transformed into a respected physicist who was outcast from the organized science community just like brave ID freaks for being courageously skeptical...

For a full debunking of Monkton's crap at APS, see the following:

A detailed list of the errors in Monckton's July 2008 Physics and Society article

[Link: altenergyaction.org...]

315 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:15:31pm

re: #306 esch

Don't understand that one. I understand Berry liked to get shitfaced from time to time too...

/RIMshot

Berry is a mega asshole...always was...and the Stones made millions for him...he later squared it with Richards, but still...Berry has an unbounded ego, Jagger was appalled by him

316 Hector1980  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:15:32pm

re: #284 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'll go with 911 was an inside job to being crazier.

Maybe I'm partisan.

That's right. That's crazier.

However, ODS has a bit of added racism, just to give it flavor.

317 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:15:36pm

re: #309 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, we're going to have to disagree on that one. Torture in my book is wrong, and to my knowledge there has not been any credible evidence presented that it actually helped us with anything.

In fact, the information we do have is that we get much better information from conventional interrogation techniques, old episodes of '24' notwithstanding.

318 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:15:41pm

re: #308 PT Barnum

Strictly a misguided effort to make some money that ended up costing him bigtime when Easton broke a shoulder and had to go off the road for months...and he was contractually barred from playing solo in the US that year.

319 amused  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:15:51pm

re: #313 ggt

proof a man invented the universe?

I have no idea...

320 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:16:13pm

re: #300 iceweasel

IIRC I saw Monckton writing something somwhere about how the Copenhagen trip will result in America signing away her soverignty or some such bizarro conspiracy theory. I'll see if I can find it. Makes him a natural loon for Beck.

Monkton is one of the core establishment hacks working for the fossil fuel industry that purposefully puts out anti-science propaganda.

He is an utter fraud and an abortion as a scientific writer.

321 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:16:38pm

re: #308 PT Barnum

re: #305 The Sanity Inspector

What I found somewhat of a cognative disonance was him taking Ric Ocasek's place in a revamped Cars lineup.

Not an obvious choice, right. Kind of like Paul Rodgers replacing Freddie Mercury in Queen.

Freddy Mercury, mmm...

Youtube Video
322 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:16:44pm

re: #311 freetoken

Ah yes, the "Lord" who likes to portray himself as having something to do with Parliament, though he doesn't.

If you ever highlight him (say his appearance on Beck), be sure to spotlight his history of idiocies wrt. AIDS. AGW-denialism isn't his first trip around the block.

He also likes to pretend that he's an expert on climate science, when he has absolutely no credentials in the field. Monckton is a complete shameless fraud.

Of course Glenn Beck and the right wing blogosphere love him.

323 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:17:01pm

re: #319 amused

I have no idea...

Isn't that the first step toward knowledge?

324 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:17:26pm

re: #321 The Sanity Inspector

Queen...one of the greatest rock bands EVAH!

325 amused  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:18:06pm

re: #323 MandyManners

Isn't that the first step toward knowledge?

Is that a trick question?

326 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:18:14pm

More on the Viscount... BTW, I really truly loath Monkton.

His "scientific" credentials:

In 1974 at the age of 22, Monckton joined the Yorkshire Post, where he worked as a reporter and leader-writer. From 1977 to 1978, he worked at Conservative Central Office as a press officer, becoming the editor of the Roman Catholic newspaper The Universe in 1979, then managing editor of The Sunday Telegraph Magazine in 1981. He joined the English tabloid newspaper, Evening Standard, as a leader-writer in 1982.[1]
[edit]Politics

He returned to Conservative Central Office in late 1982, this time as a policy advisor for Margaret Thatcher.[2] In 1986, he became assistant editor of the newly established, and now defunct, tabloid newspaper Today. He was a consulting editor for the Evening Standard from 1987 to 1992 and was its chief leader-writer from 1990 to 1992.[1]
Monckton presents himself as a member of the House of Lords[3][4], but is not a member of that body[5]. Monckton was an unsuccessful candidate for a Conservative seat in the House of Lords in a March 2007 by-election caused by the death of Lord Mowbray and Stourton. He received no votes in the election.[6]


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

327 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:18:16pm

re: #313 ggt

Reminds me of an old Victor Borge joke:

Once there were two Chinese...
Now look how many.

328 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:19:11pm

Update: Justice stands by refusal to give interracial couple license to wed

A justice of the peace in Louisiana who has drawn widespread criticism for refusing to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple says he has no regrets about his decision.

"It's kind of hard to apologize for something that you really and truly feel down in your heart you haven't done wrong," Keith Bardwell told CNN affiliate WAFB on Saturday.

329 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:19:16pm

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

The government of the Maldives has held a cabinet meeting underwater to highlight the threat of global warming to the low-lying Indian Ocean nation.

Youtube Video
330 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:19:17pm

re: #303 albusteve

Wiki don't mean shit...when it comes down to it there are many myths and legends about musicians and their cross contacts...believe what you will, but it's true when Kieth Richards finally met Chuck Berry...Berry punched him in the face

I can weigh in on McClinton teaching Lennon to play harp..
During his tour in Germany He met John and taught him a couple of licks on Harp..It became legendary and Delbert has said that no matter what is printed it acts like he taught John to play..This Legend lives on and Delbert giggles about it..
This from the book the Children of the Blues
The same book I've offered to send you for free Steve..I have lots of copies..
Don't worry.. I won't out you bro..*wink*

331 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:19:46pm

re: #321 The Sanity Inspector

Queen died with Freddie. I had a hard enough time with new drummer guy in The Who, but no Mercury in Queen is no Queen at all.

332 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:19:49pm

re: #325 amused

Is that a trick question?

No. It was an honest question.

333 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:19:53pm

re: #317 PT Barnum

Sorry, we're going to have to disagree on that one. Torture in my book is wrong, and to my knowledge there has not been any credible evidence presented that it actually helped us with anything.

In fact, the information we do have is that we get much better information from conventional interrogation techniques, old episodes of '24' notwithstanding.

then you didn't pay attention...of course waterboarding worked...there was a time element involved...people sung...call it whatever you want, but lives where saved, maybe even yours

334 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:20:02pm

Does anyone read the LA Times? I liked her summing up of her beliefs.
I am a radical individual freedom fighter or defender of individual freedom. I'm a universalist; I think these freedoms and rights are universal.

335 lurking faith  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:20:14pm

re: #299 Jimmah

I wish I had a bottle...

Youtube Video
336 harry91  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:20:19pm

re: #203 esch

Don't believe it for a minute...

337 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:20:30pm

re: #322 Charles

Apparently he has been touring Canada, being sponsored by the usual suspects. Beck will love him, and no doubt stress that he was an Advisor to PM Thatcher. However, I doubt Beck will mention that Monckton wanted the British gov't to quarantine all AIDS infected for life.

338 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:20:49pm

re: #333 albusteve

Got a source for that other than Dick Cheney who is trying hard to keep his ass out of jail?

339 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:21:12pm

re: #328 Killgore Trout

Update: Justice stands by refusal to give interracial couple license to wed

I expected nothing else.

340 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:21:23pm

re: #334 carefulnow

It's nice to see her in the news again. It's been a while.

341 Hector1980  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:21:30pm

re: #322 Charles

He also likes to pretend that he's an expert on climate science, when he has absolutely no credentials in the field. Monckton is a complete shameless fraud.

Of course Glenn Beck and the right wing blogosphere love him.

Oh, yeah. I knew I had read that name lately, but couldn't remember where. The RW blogs have been peddling his bizarre "US will surrender sovereignty" rant.

342 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:22:12pm

re: #337 freetoken

BTW, the reason nobility tends to loose power is inbreeding...

343 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:22:31pm

re: #330 HoosierHoops

I can weigh in on McClinton teaching Lennon to play harp..
During his tour in Germany He met John and taught him a couple of licks on Harp..It became legendary and Delbert has said that no matter what is printed it acts like he taught John to play..This Legend lives on and Delbert giggles about it..
This from the book the Children of the Blues
The same book I've offered to send you for free Steve..I have lots of copies..
Don't worry.. I won't out you bro..*wink*

you are exactly right...Delbert was far more accomplished and hairs were split...I'd take that book but feel like I'd be putting you out

344 amused  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:22:39pm

But if I claim to know that claiming to not know means I know, then I can't claim that I know. Ya know?

345 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:22:48pm

re: #340 Killgore Trout

Well, the article is a transcript of an old interview...but it is nice to read about her again. Especially in the LA Times.

346 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:22:51pm

re: #338 PT Barnum

Got a source for that other than Dick Cheney who is trying hard to keep his ass out of jail?

You probably could find it here.

347 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:23:55pm

Here we go: crazy Monckton got his own thread at Free Republic for this. You can see why he's a natural for Beck:

Lord Monckton: Copenhagen treaty will establish Marxist World Government

At [the 2009 United Nations Climate Change Conference in] Copenhagen, this December, weeks away, a treaty will be signed. Your president will sign it. Most of the third world countries will sign it, because they think they’re going to get money out of it. Most of the left-wing regime from the European Union will rubber stamp it. Virtually nobody won’t sign it.

I read that treaty. And what it says is this, that a world government is going to be created. The word “government” actually appears as the first of three purposes of the new entity. The second purpose is the transfer of wealth from the countries of the West to third world countries, in satisfaction of what is called, coyly, “climate debt” – because we’ve been burning CO2 and they haven’t. We’ve been screwing up the climate and they haven’t. And the third purpose of this new entity, this government, is enforcement.

How many of you think that the word “election” or “democracy” or “vote” or “ballot” occurs anywhere in the 200 pages of that treaty? Quite right, it doesn’t appear once. So, at last, the communists who piled out of the Berlin Wall and into the environmental movement, who took over Greenpeace so that my friends who funded it left within a year, because [the communists] captured it – Now the apotheosis as at hand. They are about to impose a communist world government on the world. You have a president who has very strong sympathies with that point of view. He’s going to sign it. He’ll sign anything. He’s a Nobel Peace Prize [winner]; of course he’ll sign it.

Batshit doesn't begin to describe this guy. Along with the anti-AGW riff, he'll be able to appeal to the Beck audience that believes Obama is a marxist, to the anti-gubbmint types who fear a One World Government, and as a special bonus, to the freaks who think Obama is the AntiChrist and believe that the creation of a One World Government is one of the prophecies he must fulfill.

This is like a homerun with bases loaded for Beck in terms of his audience.

348 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:24:01pm

re: #342 LudwigVanQuixote

BTW, the reason nobility tends to loose power is inbreeding...

In-breeding or the encroachment of EU lately?

349 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:24:19pm

re: #317 PT Barnum

Though some do not think water boarding is torture,(it is) that particular technique has saved American lives. Whether the methods you speak of are better, I cannot say, but the plots uncovered through waterboarding were quite real and feasible.
Allowing lives to be lost because of world opinion, is an idea with which I thoroughly disagree.

350 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:24:33pm

re: #344 amused

But if I claim to know that claiming to not know means I know, then I can't claim that I know. Ya know?

No.

351 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:24:39pm

re: #344 amused

But if I claim to know that claiming to not know means I know, then I can't claim that I know. Ya know?

"I know nothing."
- Sgt. Schultz

352 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:24:48pm

Goodnight, Lizards.

353 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:25:31pm

re: #338 PT Barnum

Got a source for that other than Dick Cheney who is trying hard to keep his ass out of jail?

no... I blather this time of night...but you seem to have some affinity for terrorists...who gives a shit about propriety when people are dying?...it worked and it was legal

354 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:25:48pm

re: #352 carefulnow

Goodnight, Lizards.

Good night, carefulnow.

355 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:26:29pm

re: #342 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, that may be true, but in this case the title was only created in the 1950's, for the current Monckton's grandfather, as a reward for his service.

356 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:27:12pm

re: #328 Killgore Trout

Update: Justice stands by refusal to give interracial couple license to wed

The guy still doesn't get it that he must follow the law, regardless of what his personal "beliefs" are.

Here is local coverage: Jindal, the NAACP, the ACLU, Mary Landrieu - all calling on the Judiciary Commission for Louisiana to investigate and impose sanctions.

357 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:27:16pm

re: #347 iceweasel

Which is pretty much the same as Buchanan's column yesterday...

Same old story.

358 harry91  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:27:55pm

re: #331 PAUL_MACDONALD


I once had a friend who was a HUGE Queen fan. I say once because one day I casually mentioned that he was gay and the guy went freakin nuts. Of course I thought he was joking and kinda goaded him with the WTF you didn't know HAHAHA.

The anti-gay crap I heard that day kinda scared the crap outa me and the girl I was with at the time was beyond pissed off.


After that I learned to keep my mouth shut about Queen. But my 10 year old and I love them.

And the girl...I married.

359 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:28:14pm

Wow, Dick Cheney is going to jail??

360 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:28:27pm

re: #353 albusteve

you seem to have some affinity for terrorists

One doesn't have to have "some affinity for terrorists" to be anti-torture, sorry.

361 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:28:39pm

re: #346 MandyManners

What about this:
Detainee's Harsh Treatment Foiled No Plots.

And if waterboarding is so great, why didn't we need it to prevent the most recent spate of plots, all of which were busted using traditional law enforcement techniques?

362 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:29:11pm

re: #352 carefulnow

Goodnight, Lizards.

'Night.

363 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:29:20pm
364 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:29:38pm

re: #360 bratwurst

One doesn't have to have "some affinity for terrorists" to be anti-torture, sorry.

talking gets people killed...and I'm not sorry about it

365 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:30:09pm

re: #347 iceweasel

Here we go: crazy Monckton got his own thread at Free Republic for this. You can see why he's a natural for Beck:

Lord Monckton: Copenhagen treaty will establish Marxist World Government

Batshit doesn't begin to describe this guy. Along with the anti-AGW riff, he'll be able to appeal to the Beck audience that believes Obama is a marxist, to the anti-gubbmint types who fear a One World Government, and as a special bonus, to the freaks who think Obama is the AntiChrist and believe that the creation of a One World Government is one of the prophecies he must fulfill.

This is like a homerun with bases loaded for Beck in terms of his audience.

You're right, he's a loon. The main difference between him and most of them is that he lends an Upper-Class British spin to his ravings. Doesn't work with us, of course. You can shine a turd and call it gold, but its still a turd.

366 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:30:32pm

re: #363 Kip

Auf Wiedersehen

367 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:30:32pm

Does anyone wanna go dancin' on the roof?

Youtube Video
368 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:30:43pm

re: #356 reine.de.tout

The guy still doesn't get it that he must follow the law, regardless of what his personal "beliefs" are.

Here is local coverage: Jindal, the NAACP, the ACLU, Mary Landrieu - all calling on the Judiciary Commission for Louisiana to investigate and impose sanctions.

Good. This guy needs to go. Do you have enough proof readers yet?

369 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:30:49pm

re: #363 Kip

Piss off.

370 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:31:03pm

re: #363 Kip


5-4-3-2-1...

William

371 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:31:15pm

encore for the noobies...get some John-O

Youtube Video
372 amused  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:31:30pm

re: #358 harry91

I had the delicate task of telling my boss that Stephen Colbert wasn't really what he appears to be. How that idiot got to be boss...

373 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:31:37pm

have a great evening all!

374 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:31:39pm

re: #363 Kip

Rodan? I recognize the grammar.

375 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:31:57pm

re: #328 Killgore Trout

Update: Justice stands by refusal to give interracial couple license to wed

What a loathsome sonofb*tch...

376 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:32:34pm

re: #353 albusteve

Actually I have an affinity for classic American values and one of those is we don't sink to the level of the evil we're fighting.

How is it you have an affinity for torturers? It's the same question you asked me just turned around.

Torturing people is wrong, no matter who they are. The ends do not justify the means, and especially so in light of what we've discovered about the relative effectiveness of standard interrogation and "enhanced" interrogation.

377 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:32:43pm

re: #360 bratwurst

But it helps, no?

378 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:32:50pm

re: #364 albusteve

Then at the very least accept that it IS possible to be anti-torture (including waterboarding) without being pro-terrorist.

379 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:33:01pm

re: #368 Killgore Trout

Good. This guy needs to go. Do you have enough proof readers yet?

I have five.
I hope they all last through 'til the end!
If not, I'll put out another call.

380 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:33:09pm

re: #363 Kip

Love you too..

381 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:33:16pm

By the way, it really is a right wing conspiracy to silence the science about AGW. And, it really is funded by fossil fuel concerns.

Here is a lovely page on the Heartland Institute.

[Link: www.exxonsecrets.org...]

Monkton, on the other hand, is part of the British equivalent.

382 Hector1980  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:33:24pm

re: #347 iceweasel

OH MY GOD! OBAMA WANTS TO IMMANENTIZE THE ESCHATON!!!

383 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:34:00pm

re: #358 harry91

I once had a friend who was a HUGE Queen fan. I say once because one day I casually mentioned that he was gay and the guy went freakin nuts. Of course I thought he was joking and kinda goaded him with the WTF you didn't know HAHAHA.

The anti-gay crap I heard that day kinda scared the crap outa me and the girl I was with at the time was beyond pissed off.


After that I learned to keep my mouth shut about Queen. But my 10 year oldI and I love them.

And the girl...I married.

I guess your "friend" never saw Freddy Mercury live or on video - he wasn't exactly in the closet.
What a great talent.

384 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:34:01pm

re: #358 harry91

No idea how a huge Queen fan couldn't know Freddie was gay. Name of the band was chosen because of the homosexual connotations.

Regardless, Queen is Brian May and Freddie Mercury. On this, I can never compromise.

385 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:34:09pm

re: #347 iceweasel

Hey that's my Lok Nar!

386 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:34:15pm

re: #376 PT Barnum

Nonsense.

387 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:34:45pm

re: #363 Kip

Kippee-yi-yay, motherfuckrer or, yippee-ki-yay, motherfucker.

Either one works for me.

388 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:34:46pm

re: #379 reine.de.tout

I have five.
I hope they all last through 'til the end!
If not, I'll put out another call.

Ok, keep us informed.

389 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:35:10pm

re: #381 LudwigVanQuixote

[...]

Monkton, on the other hand, is part of the British equivalent.

Is Monkton directly financed by the oil companies?

390 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:35:18pm

re: #386 Bagua

care to expand on that?

391 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:35:35pm

re: #381 LudwigVanQuixote

Part of Monckton's current presentation includes the DDT red herring, deconstructed here:

[Link: timpanogos.wordpress.com...]

392 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:35:40pm

Heheh.
From the Baton Rouge newspaper:

The perils of speaking Southern

Dear Smiley: My husband grew up in Indiana. He says he does not need a hearing aid — my Mississippi accent is the problem.

Recently, LSU baseball coach Paul Mainieri was honored by his Lafayette fans. I called the office where we work part time to say we would be late.

The secretary who answered the phone is from the Philippines.

I said, “Please tell our daughter that we will be late because we are at a Paul Mainieri luncheon.”

In a few minutes my cell phone rang. Our daughter said, “Are you two all right? Why are you at a pulmonary function?

393 harry91  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:35:50pm

re: #372 amused

You mean he's not...oh my.

Yeah I've had a few like that.

394 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:36:17pm

re: #378 bratwurst

Then at the very least accept that it IS possible to be anti-torture (including waterboarding) without being pro-terrorist.

the issue is moot with me...tough shit I guess...I'm diggin John Hiatt and am out of this over stated, stale old discussion...there was been a million comments when it went down...exhausting

395 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:36:25pm

re: #376 PT Barnum

And you think that what we did under Bush is torture?

396 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:36:44pm

re: #389 Bagua

yes - or more specifically, he works for the British equivalent of heartland institute types.

397 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:37:10pm

re: #386 Bagua

Nonsense.

Surely you are not about to defend torture Bagua?

398 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:37:23pm

re: #376 PT Barnum

amen.

William

399 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:37:31pm

Texas man faces execution after jurors consult Bible to decide fate

It later emerged that while deciding whether he should be given the death penalty, jurors consulted the Bible. Four jury members admitted that several copies had been in the jury room and that highlighted passages were passed around.

At one point, a juror reportedly read aloud from a copy, including the passage: "And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death."

Defence lawyers argued in appeals that jurors had been improperly influenced by the Bibles but the trial judge rejected the claim, a decision upheld by a Texas appeals court.

full article :

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

400 harry91  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:37:48pm

re: #384 PAUL_MACDONALD


Denial can be a strong motivator. You sound exactly like me when I was trying to explain the whole thing.

It got real ugly.

401 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:37:59pm

re: #396 LudwigVanQuixote

yes - or more specifically, he works for the British equivalent of heartland institute types.

I'm not aware of that, can you be more specific?

402 SteveC  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:38:11pm

I knew I should have stopped by the Pfizer table at that Career Fair when I was in college! I could make myself rich selling anti-anxiety drugs to that bunch!

403 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:38:23pm

Not many Die Hard fans.

404 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:38:39pm

re: #376 PT Barnum
They live my friend.
They live with all their limbs and have the ability to sue the horrible government that left them totally unharmed while they were trying to kill as many of us as possible.
It is certainly true that the innocent could be tortured and I have no qualms about people who turn out to be innocent getting to sue for just recompensation. But this does not mean a prisoner taken directly off a field of battle should be tried in a criminal court.

405 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:38:45pm

Charles, I keep seeing Pulse360 ads in the top banner. These are scammers.

406 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:39:05pm

re: #395 cliffster

And you think that what we did under Bush is torture?

Yes. It was. Waterboarding, forcing detainees to wear diapers and live in their own shit and piss for up to three days, and all the rest of it. Torture. No question.

No need to take my word for it. Here's the PDF of the Inspector General of the CIA's report on it from 2004.

407 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:39:05pm

re: #395 cliffster

Yes, I believe waterboarding is torture.

We convicted Japanese soldiersfor torture for doing it during World War II.

What's changed since then?

408 NervyNews  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:39:07pm

OT: Apparently O. has had some kind of chat with the Turks about the recent turn in Turko-Israeli relations. Jpost reports:

US sources speaking to the Post [...] praised the mature and restrained reaction of Israel in the face of affronts from Turkey, including pushing the Jewish state out of a joint military exercise that was to have also included the US and Italy.

The two latter countries pulled out after Turkey disinvited Israel.

More HERE.

409 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:40:05pm

re: #391 freetoken

Part of Monckton's current presentation includes the DDT red herring, deconstructed here:

[Link: timpanogos.wordpress.com...]

Again, he uses the exact same play books we've seen over and over again.

The debunking of his crap on his AGW piece really tells you everything you need to know. We've seen these plays again and again.

And I am sure that "fair and balanced" Fox will have an actual scientist or ten on hand to explain why he is full of shit too...

[Link: altenergyaction.org...]

410 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:40:35pm

John Hiatt...Cry Love

Youtube Video
411 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:40:41pm

re: #390 PT Barnum

care to expand on that?

Sure.

You said:

Torturing people is wrong, no matter who they are. The ends do not justify the means, and especially so in light of what we've discovered about the relative effectiveness of standard interrogation and "enhanced" interrogation.

I disagree. We must use any and all methods to fight against this evil of terrorism which violates the civilised rules of warfare.

412 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:40:51pm

re: #376 PT Barnum

Torturing people is wrong, no matter who they are. The ends do not justify the means, and especially so in light of what we've discovered about the relative effectiveness of standard interrogation and "enhanced" interrogation.

Why is it that on such a complex subject so many intelligent people pare down such contrasting data and decisions into a binary right/wrong does/doesn't work equation?

Right now at this moment US forces are hunting down and killing human beings with arms or ordinance. Murder is wrong, no? Therefore, US wrong. That's the kind of thinking it is. That's lazy.

Torture can work, or it cannot, or it can be ineffectual. It also clearly can be misused and is extremely risky. It's all those things and to deny that is intellectually dishonest. If you are against it that's fine but posting a WaPo story about how it didn't work with this guy doesn't make a 'harumph!' moment.

413 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:41:01pm

re: #406 iceweasel

re: #407 PT Barnum

It's not torture. And nothing you or anybody else says changes that. Apples and oranges comparisons or otherwise.

414 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:41:08pm

re: #403 MandyManners

Not many Die Hard fans.

Maybe they're just slow tonight...I got your reference though.

;-P

415 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:41:28pm

re: #400 harry91

But the rockin' 'STACHE! Come on, dude was clearly gay. I hope you never told your former buddy about Liberace or Rob Halford...

416 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:41:57pm

re: #407 PT Barnum

Yes, I believe waterboarding is torture.

We convicted Japanese soldiersfor torture for doing it during World War II.

What's changed since then?

cell phones...think it through amigo

417 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:42:07pm

re: #410 albusteve

John Hiatt...Cry Love


[Video]

You know- I rarely upding you, because you won't use the dinger, but I gave you a ding for this. I love this song. Thanks.

418 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:42:08pm

re: #404 swamprat

They live my friend.
They live with all their limbs and have the ability to sue the horrible government that left them totally unharmed while they were trying to kill as many of us as possible.
It is certainly true that the innocent could be tortured and I have no qualms about people who turn out to be innocent getting to sue for just recompensation. But this does not mean a prisoner taken directly off a field of battle should be tried in a criminal court.

Agreed.

419 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:42:21pm

re: #413 cliffster

re: #407 PT Barnum

It's not torture. And nothing you or anybody else says changes that. Apples and oranges comparisons or otherwise.

It was torture when we convicted the Japanese of it. The only thing that's changed is that you want to pretend it isn't torture when the US does it.

420 Big Steve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:42:46pm

The National Institute of Health (NIH) received 5 Billion extra dollars this year as part of the stimulus package. From April till now, they managed to spend this extra 5 Billion. Well they didn't spend it they managed actually to increase the amount of grants they fund by 5 Billion and have given it all away. They became the FIRST federal agency to spend their stimulus money in its entirety and as a consequence received a personal visit from the President and and "atta boy" speech. They also had a party for those in DC working for the NIH.

Is it just me? Or is something wrong here. Celebrating who can spend our money the fastest?

421 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:42:57pm

re: #404 swamprat

ARe you serioulsy trying to say that they came out of being tortured unscathed?

422 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:42:58pm

re: #399 Jimmah

Texas man faces execution after jurors consult Bible to decide fate

full article :

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

I like it when they have the ten commandments in the courtroom, only three of which are illegal, and the rest are completely irrelevant in a courtroom.

423 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:43:43pm

re: #417 Sharmuta

You know- I rarely upding you, because you won't use the dinger, but I gave you a ding for this. I love this song. Thanks.

thanks...it's true, I'm dingless

424 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:43:49pm

re: #414 talon_262

Maybe they're just slow tonight...I got your reference though.

;-P

The "yip" and "kip" sometimes confuse me.

425 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:43:57pm

re: #412 BigPapa

Waterboarding is torture.

426 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:44:10pm

re: #419 iceweasel
hey you!
I hope today finds you well

427 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:44:15pm

re: #421 PT Barnum

ARe you serioulsy trying to say that they came out of being tortured unscathed?

You care that these psychos who blew up buildings full of civilians were "scathed?"

428 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:44:15pm

re: #407 PT Barnum

You would do well to not compare the two.
Many did not survive. Some were maimed.
You need to actually reason for yourself and quit reading talking points off the dem anti war blogs. Things have changed. Obama is president and it is OK to be patriotic again.

429 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:44:36pm

re: #420 Big Steve

The National Institute of Health (NIH) received 5 Billion extra dollars this year as part of the stimulus package. From April till now, they managed to spend this extra 5 Billion. Well they didn't spend it they managed actually to increase the amount of grants they fund by 5 Billion and have given it all away. They became the FIRST federal agency to spend their stimulus money in its entirety and as a consequence received a personal visit from the President and and "atta boy" speech. They also had a party for those in DC working for the NIH.

Is it just me? Or is something wrong here. Celebrating who can spend our money the fastest?

Link, PLEASE.

430 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:45:31pm

re: #426 HoosierHoops

hey you!
I hope today finds you well

Hey cutie! I'm okay. How are you?

431 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:45:36pm

re: #421 PT Barnum

ARe you serioulsy trying to say that they came out of being tortured unscathed?

Oh, for fuck's sake. They had knowldedge of plans to kill thousands.

BOOFUCKINGHOO.

432 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:45:47pm

re: #408 GNIDAthe#seCond

OT: Apparently O. has had some kind of chat with the Turks about the recent turn in Turko-Israeli relations. Jpost reports:


More HERE.

The Islamification of Turkey is being glossed over and ignored at the West's peril.
Ataturk is rolling over in his grave.

433 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:46:26pm

re: #415 PAUL_MACDONALD

I hope you never told your former buddy about Liberace or Rob Halford...

But I thought all that leather and stuff was just to look tough!

434 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:46:40pm

re: #419 iceweasel

It was torture when we convicted the Japanese of it. The only thing that's changed is that you want to pretend it isn't torture when the US does it.

Conduct during a war between two armies is different from the fight against terrorists who are trying to mass murder civilians.

It bothers me that more wasn't done to extract information from these sociopaths that could have saved innocent peoples lives.

435 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:46:41pm

Comparing US information-gathering "torture" is a lot like comparing the "hard times" with which the current administration is dealing with those of the Great Depression.

436 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:46:45pm

re: #427 Bagua

You care that these psychos who blew up buildings full of civilians were "scathed?"

I know I don't. People like Khalid Sheik Mohammad deserve whatever they get. As far as I'm concerned, they have no rights.

437 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:47:24pm

re: #434 Bagua

Conduct during a war between two armies is different from the fight against terrorists who are trying to mass murder civilians.

It bothers me that more wasn't done to extract information from these sociopaths that could have saved innocent peoples lives.

Again, agreed.

438 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:48:07pm

re: #413 cliffster


It is torture. On that point they are correct. And torture is only justified to preserve human life.
And what we call torture is almost unique in that the victims are left intact, with everything except their dignity.

Even when we have to sink to their level, we still do it like Americans.

439 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:48:26pm

re: #434 Bagua

Conduct during a war between two armies is different from the fight against terrorists who are trying to mass murder civilians

No. It isn't. Torture is torture.

440 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:48:41pm

re: #405 Alouette

The alternative to using a network like Pulse360 or Google Adsense is: getting LGF readers to start supporting the site directly through Paypal donations -- and Paypal donations aren't even coming close to covering our simple web hosting costs. Forget about paying for my living expenses or the time I spend writing posts or moderating the blog.

I put up links for people to "subscribe" to LGF several months ago, at $10 a month, and so far I have a grand total of ... four subscriptions.

I'd love to take off all the advertisements, believe me. But without more support from the users who read and comment at LGF, I have no choice but to use ad networks.

441 SteveC  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:48:50pm

re: #420 Big Steve

The National Institute of Health (NIH) received 5 Billion extra dollars this year as part of the stimulus package. From April till now, they managed to spend this extra 5 Billion. Well they didn't spend it they managed actually to increase the amount of grants they fund by 5 Billion and have given it all away. They became the FIRST federal agency to spend their stimulus money in its entirety and as a consequence received a personal visit from the President and and "atta boy" speech. They also had a party for those in DC working for the NIH.

Is it just me? Or is something wrong here. Celebrating who can spend our money the fastest?

It depends on where the money went. Here's a damn good research project: Correcting a deadly heart defect with surgery while the baby is still in utero

442 Big Steve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:48:51pm

re: #429 MandyManners

here is the transcript of the speech from Obama. Your text to link... Regarding the facts and the party, I have a personal source (Big Steve's little sister) who works there.

443 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:48:58pm

re: #425 iceweasel

Waterboarding is torture.

And so it is. Are we to compare waterboarding to what has been more traditionally considered torture, even though literally yes, waterboarding is torture?

444 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:49:33pm

re: #438 swamprat

It's not torture. The people who went through it should thank their lucky stars they weren't subjected to real torture.

445 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:49:43pm

re: #439 iceweasel

No. It isn't. Torture is torture.

and death is death...eat some water and live, or get gunned down where you stand...idealism is a waste of time when lives are at steak

446 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:50:08pm

re: #427 Bagua

You care that these psychos who blew up buildings full of civilians were "scathed?"

Excuse me?

Torture is completely immoral and it does not work. Further, not everyone detained or tortured was guilty.

Worst of all, if you convince an enemy that you will torture them upon capture, they will not surrender. They will fight to the last and that means you must kill them and risk more of your own men. In other words, it costs more lives than it saves.

As to waterboarding, it was considered a crime by the Union when it was done at Andersonville. It was considered a from of torture by every civilized army of the world until the Bush administration and lastly, but hardly least General MacArthur executed japanese for the war crime of waterboarding as part of the Tokyo trials. If you doubt any of those statements look them up.

447 harry91  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:50:19pm

re: #415 PAUL_MACDONALD

Oh man I didn't even dare go there.

However I agree that without Freddie, Queen is less than interesting. I kinda had hope with Paul Rodgers but that was misplaced.

It's that voice, that magic that was lost.

I see my 10 year old saying play that one, play this one and I laugh and point out that he likes old guy music, then he slaps me around by putting on Green Day.

I'll say one thing for Guitar Hero and Rock Band, they introduced the kids I know to some awesome music. They seem to appreciate my older stuff and don't seem offended when I blare Cheap Trick in my car

That or they are being kind.

448 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:50:29pm

re: #431 MandyManners

Oh, for fuck's sake. They had knowldedge of plans to kill thousands.

BOOFUCKINGHOO.

Except for the innocent ones.

449 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:50:50pm

re: #373 ggt

have a great evening all!

'Night.

450 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:50:51pm

re: #431 MandyManners

And where is the proof for that? That is what I find so indredible. You justify torture on the grounds that millions of lives were saved, which we have to take on faith, since we cannot know whether or not those lives would have been lost had we not tortured.

I'm not willing to risk this country's soul on expediency and blind rage that we have to seek revenge.

As far as the relative morality of killing and torture, the difference between war and sadism has been recognized for a long time. Too bad some are too scared or enraged to know that.

451 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:51:06pm

Dawkins Inspires Us to Be More Visible in the Community

On Monday evening, October 12, I attended a lecture by Richard Dawkins on his new book The Greatest Show on Earth--The Evidence for Evolution which was held on the main campus of Indiana University in Bloomington, IN. It was a very inspiring experience. Yes, Dawkins was Dawkins--knowledgeable, articulate, sharp, and to the point. However, most exciting was the atmosphere in the auditorium with 3200 people--average age leaning toward the college generation.

To be among that many people who had come to a serious lecture about an important topic, to hear them clap and laugh at appropriate points with Dawkins, I felt that the scientific viewpoint had arrived, had come out of the shadows. It reminded me of the feelings I had the first time the Southport High School gymnasium was filled to capacity for a girls basketball tournament. Yes, Indiana is the land of Hoosiers and it is not uncommon for a fieldhouse to be filled to capacity for a basketball game--a boys' game. I felt that women had reached a milestone in acceptance and liberation just as I now felt that the acceptance of science had reached a milestone.

continued :

[Link: www.centerforinquiry.net...]

452 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:51:15pm

Hiatt again...just like your daddy did

Youtube Video
453 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:51:32pm

re: #421 PT Barnum


ARe you serioulsy trying to say that they came out of being tortured unscathed?

Yes! We are amazing! Even when we torture.

Seriously, you didn't know?

454 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:51:37pm

re: #445 albusteve

and death is death...eat some water and live, or get gunned down where you stand...idealism is a waste of time when lives are at steak

And generals MacArthur, Patton, Eisenhower, Grant and Pershing would disagree.

Arm chair hawks are even worse than idealists. They are less informed and more arrogant.

455 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:51:44pm

re: #439 iceweasel

Torture is torture.

Harumph!

Murder is murder. Death is death. Crime is crime.

Pizza is pizza!

456 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:52:27pm

re: #435 cliffster

Comparing US information-gathering "torture" is a lot like comparing the "hard times" with which the current administration is dealing with those of the Great Depression.

Waterboarding.
Forced Diapering.
Threats to rape the detainees mother and children in front of him.
Threats to kill the detainee's family.
Mock executions.
Stress positions.
"Walling".
Sleep deprivation.
Beatings.
Some homicides.

The US tortured under Bush. You may not like this information, but it is fact. Although Obama immediately suspended the use of EIT ('enhanced interrogation techniques') no doubt the US continues to torture under Obama, only offsite.

BTW, how do you feel about genital slicing? Because the CIA did that too, and the British High Court has just ruled that the information the Brits had about it has to be disclosed now.

457 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:52:31pm

re: #439 iceweasel

No. It isn't. Torture is torture.

This is such a Nontroversy,

we are talking about the interrogation of a couple of arch terrorists, who cares?

re: #446 LudwigVanQuixote

Ludwig,

You're talking about armies, during battles during wars. In that instance of course we follow the Geneval Convention and such.

A few terrorist who use planes full of innocent people to destroy buildings full of innocent people? All bets are off. Use whatever means necessary to prevent this crime.

458 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:52:51pm

re: #447 harry91

Oh man I didn't even dare go there.

However I agree that without Freddie, Queen is less than interesting. I kinda had hope with Paul Rodgers but that was misplaced.

It's that voice, that magic that was lost.

I see my 10 year old saying play that one, play this one and I laugh and point out that he likes old guy music, then he slaps me around by putting on Green Day.

I'll say one thing for Guitar Hero and Rock Band, they introduced the kids I know to some awesome music. They seem to appreciate my older stuff and don't seem offended when I blare Cheap Trick in my car

That or they are being kind.

Greey Day isn't being slapped around. They're very good.

459 Big Steve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:53:03pm

re: #441 SteveC

No doubt what they fund it good for us all. However think about it this way. the NIH has a normal extramural research budget and people scratch and claw to get the money and one has to have a really good project. Then suddenly the magic fairy swoops down and gives you 5 billion more to spend and you get it done in 5 months. It is really not possible that people put in great new projects. All it means is the NIH funded projects that in other years they would have passed on.

460 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:53:26pm

re: #455 BigPapa

Harumph!

Murder is murder. Death is death. Crime is crime.

Pizza is pizza!

And generals MacArthur, Patton, Eisenhower, Grant and Pershing would disagree if you are talking about waterboarding. Did you know we courts marshalled our own marines for doing it in the Philippines in addition to executing Japanese for doing it?

Arm chair hawks are even worse than idealists. They are less informed and more arrogant.

461 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:53:37pm

re: #447 harry91

My daughters love Queen, so I think it's just good parenting.

Agreed that his voice was amazing. I can listen to the less than stellar Queen simply because of the voice.

At any rate, I'm outta here. Have a good evening

462 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:54:05pm

In a report on Monckton's current travel's around the USA, from just two days ago in MN, as found on YAWNB (Yet Another WingNut Blog):

Obama Poised to Cede US Sovereignty, Claims British Lord

We find the following interesting question asked by someone in the audience of Monckton's presentation:

{{Question}}I don’t believe it until I see it. … Would [Obama's potential illegitimacy as president] give us a reasonable cause to nullify whatever treaty that he does sign as president?

{{Answer, putatively from Monckton}} I would be very careful not to rely on things like that. Although there is a certain amount of doubt whether or not he was born in Hawaii, my fear is it would be very difficult to prove he wasn’t born in Hawaii and therefore we might not be able to get anywhere with that. Besides, once he’s signed that treaty, whether or not he signed it validly, once he’s signed it and ratified it – your Senate ratifies it – you’re bound by it.

Note that the curly braces {} are my addition, the original brackets [] is from the blog writer's redaction.

Anyway, point is, it appears Monckton here is entertaining the birthers!

463 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:54:13pm

re: #454 LudwigVanQuixote

And generals MacArthur, Patton, Eisenhower, Grant and Pershing would disagree.

Arm chair hawks are even worse than idealists. They are less informed and more arrogant.

those guys are so yesterday...maybe we should feed our troops hard tack!...there is no point there, turn around and join the new millenium

464 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:54:57pm

re: #419 iceweasel

It was torture when we convicted the Japanese of it. The only thing that's changed is that you want to pretend it isn't torture when the US does it.

It wasn't TORTURE torture.///
Seriously, though, there are different levels of coercion, and the methods reportedly used by the US are certainly less barbaric than were used by the Japanese.
And the bottom line may be that a certain amount of coercion is a necessary evil which Obama and any POTUS must tolerate in special circumstaces in order to enhance military intelligence.

465 harry91  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:55:53pm

re: #458 Dark_Falcon


Oh I agree, Twenty one Guns is quite awesome. Also Linkin Park is on my iphone.

As my wife says, your iphone choices are eclectic.

466 Ojoe  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:55:55pm

IMHO if "enhanced techniques" are really necessary they will be found to be necessary "in the field" and they will be used, no matter what political stink about them has gone on before, and it will be up to the professionalism of the military to use them only to the extent necessary. We might never hear of it. Or hear of it much later than when it happens.

But if one is seriously opposed to these things, one of the best things to do is to support a very competent and professional military.

467 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:55:59pm

re: #463 albustevere: #453 swamprat

Yes! We are amazing! Even when we torture.

Seriously, you didn't know?

I really hope you just forgot to put the / at the end of that.

But I doubt it.

468 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:56:08pm

re: #430 iceweasel

Hey cutie! I'm okay. How are you?

I'm doing wonderful..going to Singapore in 60 days or so to do a job..
I was wondering.. At last count I figured about a bunch of lizards have crawled in the corner and sucked their thumb cause you started posting this year. You drove them crazy.
Does that make you feel powerful?
Does that make ex-lizards appear weak and wanting?
Does this help you stop laughing?
*wink*
Really..Ice..This story over the last couple of months is funnier than hell.. You call a couple people on their post and they just freak out...
Where did all the grownups go too?

469 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:56:14pm

re: #439 iceweasel

No. It isn't. Torture is torture.

Youtube Video
470 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:56:30pm

OK to all of you idiots out there... there was this great big false meme going through the right about waterboarding not being so bad, and not being torture...

Bull shit.

A bunch of journalists tried it.

Believe Me, It’s Torture
[Link: www.vanityfair.com...]

472 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:56:42pm

re: #442 Big Steve

here is the transcript of the speech from Obama. Your text to link... Regarding the facts and the party, I have a personal source (Big Steve's little sister) who works there.

Thank you.

473 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:56:46pm

re: #464 Spare O'Lake

It wasn't TORTURE torture.///
Seriously, though, there are different levels of coercion, and the methods reportedly used by the US are certainly less barbaric than were used by the Japanese.
And the bottom line may be that a certain amount of coercion is a necessary evil which Obama and any POTUS must tolerate in special circumstaces in order to enhance military intelligence.

It's exactly what the Japanese did and far worse than what the US does in its own SERE training. Read the CIA report on it I linked above.

474 harry91  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:56:52pm

re: #461 PAUL_MACDONALD

Goddnight

475 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:58:09pm

re: #456 iceweasel

"Some homicides"? That's not torture, that's killing. And that's war. The rest - not torture. "Forced diapering". Are you kidding me?

476 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:58:12pm

re: #470 LudwigVanQuixote

OK to all of you idiots out there... there was this great big false meme going through the right about waterboarding not being so bad, and not being torture...

Bull shit.

A bunch of journalists tried it.

Believe Me, It’s Torture
[Link: www.vanityfair.com...]

Youtube Video
477 SteveC  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:58:14pm

re: #459 Big Steve

No doubt what they fund it good for us all. However think about it this way. the NIH has a normal extramural research budget and people scratch and claw to get the money and one has to have a really good project. Then suddenly the magic fairy swoops down and gives you 5 billion more to spend and you get it done in 5 months. It is really not possible that people put in great new projects. All it means is the NIH funded projects that in other years they would have passed on.

As I said, it depends on where the money goes. I *hope* we weren't funding study of the mating habits of Water Buffalo Mites.

//'Cause that don't turn me on

478 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:58:25pm

re: #440 Charles

I just hit the tip jar. Keep up the good work!

BTW did you ever get that T-shirt?

479 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:58:33pm

re: #463 albusteve

those guys are so yesterday...maybe we should feed our troops hard tack!...there is no point there, turn around and join the new millenium

Uhh excuse me?

I really hope there was a dropped sarc tag.

Those are some of the best generals we have ever had in not just our history, but world history. They knew a whole hell of a lot more about warfare than anyone ever picked up from whatever propaganda.

480 Ojoe  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:58:34pm

Good night all.

481 Reginald Perrin  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:58:44pm

re: #440 Charles

I threw some of my Soros dollars into the tip jar

482 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:59:02pm

re: #440 Charles

The alternative to using a network like Pulse360 or Google Adsense is: getting LGF readers to start supporting the site directly through Paypal donations -- and Paypal donations aren't even coming close to covering our simple web hosting costs. Forget about paying for my living expenses or the time I spend writing posts or moderating the blog.

I put up links for people to "subscribe" to LGF several months ago, at $10 a month, and so far I have a grand total of ... four subscriptions.

I'd love to take off all the advertisements, believe me. But without more support from the users who read and comment at LGF, I have no choice but to use ad networks.

I was looking for the subscription link but couldn't find it. Did you take it off?

483 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:59:28pm

re: #466 Ojoe

IMHO if "enhanced techniques" are really necessary they will be found to be necessary "in the field" and they will be used, no matter what political stink about them has gone on before, and it will be up to the professionalism of the military to use them only to the extent necessary. We might never hear of it. Or hear of it much later than when it happens.

But if one is seriously opposed to these things, one of the best things to do is to support a very competent and professional military.

That's why I believe the military guys when they say that it's torture and that it doesn't work.

Malcolm W. Nance is a counter-terrorism and terrorism intelligence consultant for the U.S. government’s Special Operations, Homeland Security and Intelligence agencies. A 20-year veteran of the US intelligence community's Combating Terrorism program and a six year veteran of the Global War on Terrorism he has extensive field and combat experience as an field intelligence collections operator, an Arabic speaking interrogator and a master Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) instructor. From Beirut in 1983 he has deployed on numerous anti-terrorism and counter-terrorism intelligence operations in Balkans, Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa and other small wars in direct support to the principle agencies of the Special Operations and Intelligence Community. In 1997 at the US Navy SERE School’s Advanced Terrorism, Abduction and Hostage Survival program (ATAHS) in Coronado, California, he created and led the terrorism training team tasked to simulate the Al Qaeda organization and its tactics, techniques and procedures. In January 2001, he formed Special Readiness Services International to support the SOF in analysis of Al Qaeda and global Jihadi strategy and tactics. On the morning of 9/11 he eye witnessed the attack on the Pentagon and performed rescue/recovery at the crash site. For more than six years he has conducted operations in support of international, federal and state homeland security agencies as well as in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'll take his word for it.

484 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:59:44pm

re: #446 LudwigVanQuixote
Torture is completely immoral and it does not work. Further, not everyone detained or tortured was guilty.

The reality would indicate otherwise

As to waterboarding, it was considered a crime by the Union when it was done at Andersonville. It was considered a from of torture by every civilized army of the world until the Bush administration and lastly, but hardly least General MacArthur executed japanese for the war crime of waterboarding as part of the Tokyo trials. If you doubt any of those statements look them up.

Absolutely true, but there are different versions of waterboarding

Please note my quibble about prisoners being taken off the battlefield. The bald truth is that many were "captured" long after any battle and were traded, or sold, or the victims of local disputes. Those have every right to appeal their condition.

485 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 7:59:58pm

re: #471 goddamnedfrank

"Lord" Monckton is the gift that keeps on giving... a perfect guest for Glenn Beck.

486 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:00:03pm

re: #475 cliffster

"Some homicides"? That's not torture, that's killing. And that's war. The rest - not torture. "Forced diapering". Are you kidding me?

There were detainees murdered in US custody. That's not war. That's murder.

487 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:00:15pm

re: #450 PT Barnum

And where is the proof for that? That is what I find so indredible. You justify torture on the grounds that millions of lives were saved, which we have to take on faith, since we cannot know whether or not those lives would have been lost had we not tortured.

I'm not willing to risk this country's soul on expediency and blind rage that we have to seek revenge.

As far as the relative morality of killing and torture, the difference between war and sadism has been recognized for a long time. Too bad some are too scared or enraged to know that.

Well said and Amen.

488 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:00:16pm

re: #470 LudwigVanQuixote

Believe me, it's not. It sucks, but it's not torture. There are bad things in the world. No matter how much you don't want there to be, there is.

489 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:00:16pm

re: #460 LudwigVanQuixote

Amen.

490 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:00:34pm

re: #473 iceweasel

So if we pick up a militia member in Montana that we think might know about a plot to blow up another Federal Building is it okay to waterboard them? It's a terrorist. Why not?

491 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:00:58pm

re: #470 LudwigVanQuixote

OK to all of you idiots out there... there was this great big false meme going through the right about waterboarding not being so bad, and not being torture...

Bull shit.

A bunch of journalists tried it.

Believe Me, It’s Torture
[Link: www.vanityfair.com...]

We're not idiots, Ludwig. You know better than to pitch around insults. Bagua and I have have defended you on many occasions. We simply don't agree with you this time. Your passion is admirable, but I ask you to restrain it.

492 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:01:02pm

re: #446 LudwigVanQuixote

Excuse me?

Torture is completely immoral and it does not work. Further, not everyone detained or tortured was guilty.

Worst of all, if you convince an enemy that you will torture them upon capture, they will not surrender. They will fight to the last and that means you must kill them and risk more of your own men. In other words, it costs more lives than it saves.

As to waterboarding, it was considered a crime by the Union when it was done at Andersonville. It was considered a from of torture by every civilized army of the world until the Bush administration and lastly, but hardly least General MacArthur executed japanese for the war crime of waterboarding as part of the Tokyo trials. If you doubt any of those statements look them up.

That's a multitude of absolute statements made as if irrefutable, especially the premise that if we torture, therefore the enemy will fight harder and kill more of our guys, therefore bad. As if both sides aren't already committed to war and killing each other to begin with... that's a very simplistic statement.

Not everyone everyone detained was tortured. In fact, what we're talking about here is less than a handful of people at a different time a few years ago.

Practically speaking the the impetus is on you to point out how many Japanese were executed specifically and only for waterboarding and not all the other truly evil crap they did, including much more horrific torturing in a larger campaign of wholesale human suffering. The way it was implied was Japanese were specifically and only executed for only waterboarding. Don't tell me to just 'look it up.'

493 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:01:12pm

re: #448 LudwigVanQuixote

Except for the innocent ones.

We've got the whole rest of history to second-guess, thanks to our nation's anti-terror frontline.

494 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:01:17pm

re: #446 LudwigVanQuixote

Excuse me?

Torture is completely immoral and it does not work. Further, not everyone detained or tortured was guilty.

Worst of all, if you convince an enemy that you will torture them upon capture, they will not surrender. They will fight to the last and that means you must kill them and risk more of your own men. In other words, it costs more lives than it saves.

As to waterboarding, it was considered a crime by the Union when it was done at Andersonville. It was considered a from of torture by every civilized army of the world until the Bush administration and lastly, but hardly least General MacArthur executed japanese for the war crime of waterboarding as part of the Tokyo trials. If you doubt any of those statements look them up.

People have taken this one insane scenario (time bomb ticking suspect knows disarming mechanism but won't talk) and are trying to extrapolate it into policy. Terrible policy. So many unintended consequences. So much power given to an executive that can never be trusted to use power altruistically over the long term.

Not to make this a discussion of ethics but how can the word 'wrong' have any meaning if torture isn't an example of it?

495 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:01:36pm

re: #440 Charles

I, for one, do not mind the adverts at all. Indeed, hopefully we can all work together to bring even more hits to LGF, so that you can attract advertisers willing to pay more for being seen here.

496 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:02:28pm

re: #486 iceweasel

There were detainees murdered in US custody. That's not war. That's murder.

Please cite those cases. I need the data to comment on them.

497 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:02:32pm

re: #484 swamprat

Bull shit. It does not work. That is what the military guys say and also why it is not permissible in a court of law.

Use your head.

If you hurt someone long enough they will tell you what they think you want to hear, not necessarily the truth. If you would reject a false confession on the basis of torture why would you accept intelligence on that basis?

It does not work. Anyone who claims it does is either hopelessly misguided or a sadist.

498 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:03:06pm

re: #479 LudwigVanQuixote

Uhh excuse me?

I really hope there was a dropped sarc tag.

Those are some of the best generals we have ever had in not just our history, but world history. They knew a whole hell of a lot more about warfare than anyone ever picked up from whatever propaganda.

I get tired of your name calling and righteous indignation when people don't agree with you...it's so ho hum...

anyway you generals that you posted would probably have flattened Iraq and killed every living thing that could not get oughta the way...the best generals break stuff and kill people by the bucketful...waterboarding is what it is...I don't feel the need to inject an endless bunch of phony moralizing into the issue...better to be wet than dead, I say

499 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:03:13pm

re: #465 harry91

My 7 year old loves Green Day & personally I think "See the Light" is the best song of the past year or so.

William

500 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:03:39pm

re: #463 albusteve

those guys are so yesterday...maybe we should feed our troops hard tack!...there is no point there, turn around and join the new millenium

No one knows nothin' who doesn't agree with me on everything.

501 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:03:45pm

re: #491 Dark_Falcon

We're not idiots, Ludwig. You know better than to pitch around insults. Bagua and I have have defended you on many occasions. We simply don't agree with you this time. Your passion is admirable, but I ask you to restrain it.

If someone claims that waterboarding is not torture, they are being an idiot. It is as false a statement as claiming that the Confederacy won the Civil War.

502 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:03:50pm

re: #461 PAUL_MACDONALD

My daughters love Queen, so I think it's just good parenting.

Agreed that his voice was amazing. I can listen to the less than stellar Queen simply because of the voice.

At any rate, I'm outta here. Have a good evening

There should be more Persians like Freddie and less like Dinner Jacket in the world.

503 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:03:53pm

re: #490 PT Barnum

So if we pick up a militia member in Montana that we think might know about a plot to blow up another Federal Building is it okay to waterboard them? It's a terrorist. Why not?

yes...thanks for the reminder

504 SteveC  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:04:59pm

Gotta go. Hope everyone has a good evening!

All ya'll are invited to my church tomorrow - it's Homecoming! And that means DINNER!

Food on the table at 12 noon Eastern!

505 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:05:14pm

Charles, you should join Linkshare and partner with their vendors. I also have a nonprofit history website which is supported by affiliate partnerships at the Zionist Mall.

506 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:05:21pm

re: #497 LudwigVanQuixote

Bull shit. It does not work. That is what the military guys say and also why it is not permissible in a court of law.

Use your head.
[...].

What "court of law"? What "confession"?

The goal in to get actionable intelligence from a terrorist who has no legal rights.

Everything is permitted under those circumstances.

507 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:05:25pm

re: #502 The Sanity Inspector

There should be more Persians like Freddie and less like Dinner Jacket in the world.

Quite Concur.

508 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:05:43pm

[Link: www.projectcensored.org...]

509 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:05:44pm

re: #490 PT Barnum They are Americans and therefore subject to rights prisoners of war, lack?

Did I get it right?

510 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:06:00pm

re: #486 iceweasel

There were detainees murdered in US custody. That's not war. That's murder.

WHAT? GIVE LINKS.

511 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:06:18pm

re: #501 LudwigVanQuixote

If someone claims that waterboarding is not torture, they are being an idiot. It is as false a statement as claiming that the Confederacy won the Civil War.

Please be civil Ludwig, not everyone you disagree with is an "idiot".

512 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:06:18pm

re: #460 LudwigVanQuixote

And generals MacArthur, Patton, Eisenhower, Grant and Pershing would disagree if you are talking about waterboarding. Did you know we courts marshalled our own marines for doing it in the Philippines in addition to executing Japanese for doing it?

Arm chair hawks are even worse than idealists. They are less informed and more arrogant.

Quit projecting, it's beneath you.

All those generals are not alive today to be queried about what the Bush administration did. Some may say Torture! and some may say it's the right thing at that time and place and to the relative amount of actual waterboarding, sleep deprivation, and humiliation/threatening that was committed.

How many Japanese were executed for waterboarding again?

513 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:06:28pm

re: #494 dugmartsch

Quick show of hands from our center-left friends: Do you believe that America deserved 9/11, or that 9/11 was an unacceptable expression of an otherwise legitimate grievance from the Islamic world? Did you ever believe either of those things, in the past eight years?

514 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:06:38pm

re: #498 albusteve

I get tired of your name calling and righteous indignation when people don't agree with you...it's so ho hum...

anyway you generals that you posted would probably have flattened Iraq and killed every living thing that could not get oughta the way...the best generals break stuff and kill people by the bucketful...waterboarding is what it is...I don't feel the need to inject an endless bunch of phony moralizing into the issue...better to be wet than dead, I say

And yet no name was called in that.

As to better wet than dead, you really are refusing to process the realities of the situation. Torture is not effective, it does not work and it is not moral.

515 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:06:45pm

re: #510 MandyManners

How have you guys not read about this stuff?

516 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:07:02pm

re: #503 albusteve

You prove my point as to why we can never let this become acceptable.

If we approve it for terrorists, foreign or domestic, then do we start allowing it for someone who might know about a mafia hit that might go down? For an arson that might be committed?

This reminds me of the story about Mark Twain asking a woman if she would sleep with him for a million dollars. "I might." was the reply.

He then asked her if she would sleep with him for a penny. "Certainly NOT! What kind of woman do you think I am."

Twain replied "We've already established that madame, now we're just haggling."

517 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:07:28pm

re: #506 Bagua

What "court of law"? What "confession"?

The goal in to get actionable intelligence from a terrorist who has no legal rights.

Everything is permitted under those circumstances.

No you missed the point. Courts of law throw out testimony under torture because it is assumed to be unreliable. How can you not know that?

518 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:07:33pm

I have a feeling that anyone here who submitted to waterboarding would change their mind about it's not being torture immediately just as Hitchens did. And that's not even the full deal. Hitchens knew that he was surrounded by people who had his health and safety as their first priority.

519 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:08:09pm

re: #513 The Sanity Inspector

Yeah you need to check that box before you can register Democrat.

Duh.

521 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:09:00pm

re: #510 MandyManners

WHAT? GIVE LINKS.

[Link: action.aclu.org...]

Read it yourself.

522 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:09:05pm

re: #394 albusteve

the issue is moot with me...tough shit I guess.

Nice contribution to raising the level of discourse between liberals and conservatives.
/

523 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:09:12pm

Since no one's picking up on it, I encourage you to watch that Al Jarreau I posted upthread. You'll see someone you might recognize.

524 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:09:47pm

re: #517 LudwigVanQuixote

No you missed the point. Courts of law throw out testimony under torture because it is assumed to be unreliable. How can you not know that?

The point is not to get a conviction in a court of law, the point is to get actionable intelligence to prevent a terrorist attack that would kill civilians in mass.

525 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:10:00pm

re: #512 BigPapa


All those generals are not alive today to be queried about what the Bush administration did.

Well, and nonetheless they explicitly forbade the practice.

Some may say Torture! and some may say it's the right thing at that time and place and to the relative amount of actual waterboarding,

And yet somehow Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were real threats to America whereas Iraq was not. And yet they did not waterboard.

526 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:10:03pm

re: #499 wlewisiii

My 7 year old loves Green Day & personally I think "See the Light" is the best song of the past year or so.

William

My favorite band last month was the King of Leon..After the lyrics going through my head a million times.. I gotta find somebody whatever
I'm so over them.. I'm currently stuck on deathcab for cutie stuff...I am so downloading any on the edge of lawful downloads for them...I swear...
/I'm gotta need somebody..yea
Get it out of my head I beg you
*wink*

527 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:10:44pm

re: #506 Bagua

If that's the case, then America really was destroyed on 9/11/01...

Sorry, but as an NCO in the US Army I was required to teach classes on the laws of war: waterboarding is always wrong. There is no exception. None. Not one life was saved - the only thing gained was revenge.

If Jack whatshisname from 24 hours were real then he would belong in prison.

William

528 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:11:12pm

re: #524 Bagua

The point is not to get a conviction in a court of law, the point is to get actionable intelligence to prevent a terrorist attack that would kill civilians in mass.

So if it is unreliable because you broke the fellow, and now he will tell you whatever he thinks you want to hear, then it is not actionable intelligence.

529 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:11:17pm

re: #516 PT Barnum

You prove my point as to why we can never let this become acceptable.

If we approve it for terrorists, foreign or domestic, then do we start allowing it for someone who might know about a mafia hit that might go down? For an arson that might be committed?

This reminds me of the story about Mark Twain asking a woman if she would sleep with him for a million dollars. "I might." was the reply.

He then asked her if she would sleep with him for a penny. "Certainly NOT! What kind of woman do you think I am."

Twain replied "We've already established that madame, now we're just haggling."

Bullshit.

530 Kragar  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:12:05pm

re: #310 amused

In the beginning there was nothing.

Then God said "Let there be light!"

There was still nothing, but now you could see it.

531 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:12:53pm

re: #513 The Sanity Inspector

Quick show of hands from our center-left friends: Do you believe that America deserved 9/11, or that 9/11 was an unacceptable expression of an otherwise legitimate grievance from the Islamic world? Did you ever believe either of those things, in the past eight years?

Nope.

532 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:13:22pm

re: #513 The Sanity Inspector

That one is way over the line. I promise you; There is no way that Ludwig or iceweasel feel 9/11 was anything other than an evil act that America in no way caused nor invited.

533 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:13:31pm

re: #497 LudwigVanQuixote

"Court of law".

Not citizens, LVQ. Prisoners of war.
And torture is only justifiable under dire circumstance. Only when lives are at stake. Not for punishment. Only to save lives using non-lethal, non-permanent methods.
And they have worked. they have saved lives. (don't know about the "millions" part)

534 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:14:05pm

re: #514 LudwigVanQuixote

And yet no name was called in that.

As to better wet than dead, you really are refusing to process the realities of the situation. Torture is not effective, it does not work and it is not moral.

Ludwick...you are an idiot, how do you like it?...your point of view is highschool idealism at best...it's a harsh world out there...get out of your classroom and hit the streets...and btw I would never want you for back up in a brawl...waterboarding is torture?, then so be it...tough shit

535 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:14:12pm

re: #527 wlewisiii

But that's the whole source of the fantasies about torture actually working. It isn't from any objective reality. It's more of an expression of rage because we can't get to the people who really hurt us on 9/11. Osama bin Hidin' is still at large as are many of the people we really want to "get" for doing us harm.

536 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:14:30pm

re: #515 dugmartsch

How have you guys not read about this stuff?

Are you for real?re: #515 dugmartsch

How have you guys not read about this stuff?

Are you for real?

537 harry91  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:14:33pm

re: #499 wlewisiii

Yeah I'll agree right now that they are poised to be one of the greats.

It's amazing that I've said Rock is Dead many a time, and guys like this a Linkin Park, prove me oh so wrong.

538 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:14:38pm

re: #411 Bagua

I disagree. We must use any and all methods to fight against this evil of terrorism which violates the civilised rules of warfare.

Fight fire with fire, morality be damned? How can the US claim moral high ground when torture is permitted? It can't.

539 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:14:49pm

re: #497 LudwigVanQuixote

It does not work. Anyone who claims it does is either hopelessly misguided or a sadist.

It can or could work, its not a binary situation. Anybody who claims it does or doesn't in absolution is intellectually dishonest and overly simplistic. Touche!

As for all the possible and potential ways it can be ineffectual or misused one would have to be ignorant to not consider the amount of review and consideration put into the valuation process of applying these techniques to specific individuals in specific cases. The fact that it happened to so few individuals only during a specific time frame after consideration by a significant amount of people does not speak to carelessness, misuse, abuse, or some slippery slope to 'bowing down to their level.'

It seems to speak to the opposite.

540 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:15:05pm

re: #530 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Is that a steven wright line? Upding no matter what.

541 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:15:14pm

re: #514 LudwigVanQuixote

And yet no name was called in that.

As to better wet than dead, you really are refusing to process the realities of the situation. Torture is not effective, it does not work and it is not moral.


Using non-lethal methods to save lives is just about as "moral" as you can get.

542 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:15:50pm

re: #531 Jimmah

WTF does that have to do with whether or not we torture people?

543 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:16:33pm

re: #513 The Sanity Inspector

Quick show of hands from our center-left friends: Do you believe that America deserved 9/11, or that 9/11 was an unacceptable expression of an otherwise legitimate grievance from the Islamic world? Did you ever believe either of those things, in the past eight years?

I see...

So because we do not want more American soldiers killed because the enemy will now no longer surrender, and because we do not want our nation's honor stained somehow we are soft on Islamic Terrorists?

Just like MacArthur was soft on the Japanese? Just like Grant was soft on the Confederacy. Just like Eisenhower was soft on the Nazis.

I am so sick and tired of the GOP meme that if you do not sink to our level of moral confusion, you must love terrorists.

544 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:16:54pm

Multiple blunt force injuries. Abrasion in upper right forehead. Abrasion on right lower forehead above eyebrow. Multiple contusions on right cheek and lower nose, left upper forehead, back of head. Abrasions on chest, lower costal margin. Contusions on arm, elbow, forearm, wrist, upper inner arm, groin, inner thigh, right back of knee and calf, left calf, left lower leg. Cause of death was pulmonary embolism due to blunt force injuries. 12/3/2002 A02-093 Bagram Collection Point Pulmonary embolism due to blunt force injuries Homicide

DOD003156 - DOD 003163; DOD 003296 - 003297 Autopsy Examination Report; Death Certificate Detainee was found unresponsive restrained in his cell. Death was due to blunt force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease.Contusions and abrasions on forehead, nose, head, behind ear, neck, abdomen, buttock, elbow, thigh, knee, foot, toe, hemorrhage on rib area and leg. Detainee died of blunt force injuries to lower extremities, complicating underlying coronary artery disease. The blunt force injuries to the legs resulted in extensive muscle damage, muscle necrosis and rhabomyolysis. Electrolyte disturbances primarily hyperkalemia (elevated blood potassium level) and metabolic acidosis can occur within hours of muscle damage. Massive sodium and water shifts occur, resulting in hypovolemic shock and casodilatation and later, acute renal failure. The decedent's underlying coronary artery disease would compromise his ability to tolerate the electrolyte and fluid abnormalities, and his underlying malnutrition and likely dehydration would further exacerbate the effects of the muscle damage. The manner of death is homicide.

12/10/2002 A02-95 (Landstuhl R.M.C. Autopsy Number) AFIP number: 285913 Bagram Collection Point Blunt force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease. Homicide

DOD003164 - DOD003170; DOD 003301 Final Autopsy Report (Addendum); Death Certificate Died as a result of asphyxia (lack of oxygen to the brain) due to strangulation as evidenced by the recently fractured hyoid bone in the neck and soft tissue hemorrhage extending downward to the level of the right thyroid cartilage. Autopsy reveleaved bone fracture, rib fractures, contusions in mid abdomen, back and buttocks extending to the left flank, abrasions, lateral buttocks. Contusions, back of legs and knees; abrasions on knees, left fingers and encircling to left wrist. Lacerations and superficial cuts, right 4th and 5th fingers. Also, blunt force injuries, predominatnly recent contusions (bruises) on the torso and lower extremities. Abrasions on left wrist are consistent with use of restraints. No evidence of defense injuries or natural disease. Manner of death is homicide.

DOD 003329 refers to this case as "strangulation, found outside isolation unit." 6/6/2003 A03-51 Whitehorse Detainment Facility, Nasiriyah, Iraq Strangulation Homicide

DOD003171 - DOD3177; DOD003298 Final Autopsy Report; Death Certificate Death caused by the multiple blunt force injuries of the lower torso and legs complicated by rhabdommyolisis (release of toxic byproducs into the system due to destruction of muscle). Manner of death is homicide. Decedent was not under the pharmacologic effect of drugs or alcohol at the time of death. 11/6/2003 A03-144 Helmand Prov, Afghanistan Multiple blunt force injuries complicated by rhabdomyolisis Homicide

That's just the first few. People beaten to death, one while restrained. Trust me, there are a lot more.

545 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:16:56pm

re: #512 BigPapa

BigPapa..Thanks for the link this morning..I did the 31.90 for 16 oz of pure Kona Coffee this morning on line from Mountain Thunder...
Thanks..I'll probably be holding my cup of real Kona on the mainland with a 9mm saying..Don't mess with my coffee dude.. I'm armed and dangerous!
*wink*

546 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:17:27pm

re: #533 swamprat

I have yet to see any credible proof of that other than various people's insistance. It is the equivilant of saying "It just did, okay?"

547 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:17:37pm

re: #535 PT Barnum
Nothing is coming of this. You know we prevented at least some threats.

Everyone is shouting and no one hears.

On both sides.

548 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:17:57pm

re: #501 LudwigVanQuixote

If someone claims that waterboarding is not torture, they are being an idiot.

What that says to me about you is 'If you disagree with me you are an idiot.' The actual subject being discussed is relegated to secondary status.

Really, you don't need to go there.

549 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:18:29pm

re: #513 The Sanity Inspector

Quick show of hands from our center-left friends: Do you believe that America deserved 9/11, or that 9/11 was an unacceptable expression of an otherwise legitimate grievance from the Islamic world? Did you ever believe either of those things, in the past eight years?

Fuck you for even asking that question, asshole.

550 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:18:52pm

Is this settled LGF policy? Is this settled LGF policy?

Since when?

551 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:18:53pm

re: #544 iceweasel

Who were the victims? Terrorists captured on the battlefield?

552 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:19:35pm

re: #513 The Sanity Inspector

Quick show of hands from our center-left friends: Do you believe that America deserved 9/11, or that 9/11 was an unacceptable expression of an otherwise legitimate grievance from the Islamic world? Did you ever believe either of those things, in the past eight years?

Of course not.

553 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:19:37pm

re: #541 swamprat

Using non-lethal methods to save lives is just about as "moral" as you can get.

It costs more lives in the long run.

Look at any campaign in history when men felt that it was better to possibly die fighting even hopeless odds, than be captured, because they knew their enemy is that cruel.

The last thing anyone with actual military experience wants is a no quarter asked and none given situation. Just ask the soldiers. Real soldiers, not Bush talking pieces.

What was the Pacific Theatre like in the Second World War? Why was it like that?

554 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:20:03pm

re: #546 PT Barnum

Thankyou. That was called for. And the truth is I am too tired to find the links you would not accept. I do not claim that millions were saved. Only some.

555 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:20:47pm

re: #549 iceweasel

[...]

Let's express ourselves with less profanity or just change the subject.

556 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:20:51pm

I wonder how many lizards who support the use of torture also identify as "pro-life?" For those who do, how does, say water boarding fit into the whole scheme of life being "sacred?"

I suspect that some may make a distinction between "innocent" and "possibly not innocent" life.

557 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:21:10pm

re: #535 PT Barnum

But that's the whole source of the fantasies about torture actually working. It isn't from any objective reality. It's more of an expression of rage because we can't get to the people who really hurt us on 9/11. Osama bin Hidin' is still at large as are many of the people we really want to "get" for doing us harm.

Dead wrong. I only hope that the next successful terrorist attack on US soil will not turn out to have been preventable because a non-citizen known terrorist who was known to possess actionable intelligence, was nevertheless not interrogated with sufficient coercion.

558 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:21:15pm

re: #547 swamprat

Prove that torture saved millions or even hundreds of lives. You can't. All you can do is continue to claim without any actual proof. You say I should know that it saved lives, but I don't because I've never been presented any credible proof that it did, nor can I be, because you can't prove a negative.

559 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:21:23pm

re: #515 dugmartsch

How have you guys not read about this stuff?

Willful blindness aided by a media that was all too happy to claim that anyone who had any questions about torture or the treatment of detainees loved terrorists-- just like our pal the misnamed Sanity Inspector just tried to do above.

560 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:21:47pm

re: #545 HoosierHoops

The link from Konaweb has 6 or 7 local growers with reasonable pricing. Doesn't get much better than that, unless you picked it up yourself.

561 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:22:33pm

re: #553 LudwigVanQuixote

It costs more lives in the long run.

Look at any campaign in history when men felt that it was better to possibly die fighting even hopeless odds, than be captured, because they knew their enemy is that cruel.

The last thing anyone with actual military experience wants is a no quarter asked and none given situation. Just ask the soldiers. Real soldiers, not Bush talking pieces.

What was the Pacific Theatre like in the Second World War? Why was it like that?


We are not talking the Second World War or any war between armies. Terrorism is a different ballgame.

562 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:22:58pm

re: #551 Bagua

Who were the victims? Terrorists captured on the battlefield?

Do your own research now, pal. Hint: we'll never know if any of them were terrorists or not, because they were fucking tortured to death before anyone found out.

563 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:23:04pm

re: #553 LudwigVanQuixote

It costs more lives in the long run.

Look at any campaign in history when men felt that it was better to possibly die fighting even hopeless odds, than be captured, because they knew their enemy is that cruel.

The last thing anyone with actual military experience wants is a no quarter asked and none given situation. Just ask the soldiers. Real soldiers, not Bush talking pieces.

What was the Pacific Theatre like in the Second World War? Why was it like that?

what is your point?...thousands of Japanese were executed outright on Saipan and Okinawa and most Marines had no problem with it...what is your actual military experience?...did you read a book?

564 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:23:07pm

re: #548 BigPapa

What that says to me about you is 'If you disagree with me you are an idiot.' The actual subject being discussed is relegated to secondary status.

Really, you don't need to go there.

No if you said that 2+2=5 you would be an idiot too. This is not about honest opinions that people can just disagree with. Every single military in the world considers it torture. Are they all wrong, but you are right?

The Spanish Inquisition considered it torture... So did the Nazis...

Do you think they too might have known what they were talking about?

What about all the journalists who tried it and came out gasping that it is indeed a horrible torture. Are you somehow right more than them too?

So spare me the hurt feelings. If you stand by an foolish statement in the face of all evidence you get challenged.

565 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:23:37pm

re: #555 Bagua

Let's express ourselves with less profanity or just change the subject.

Torture is a profanity you asshole. Defending it is a profanity. Asshole.

566 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:24:09pm

re: #544 iceweasel


Were those from interrogation, or are those just an unsorted collection of deaths stacked together as propaganda?

567 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:24:30pm

Shorter right wing attitude on torture...it's okay as long as we do it to other people who really aren't people anyway.

568 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:24:56pm

re: #555 Bagua

Let's express ourselves with less profanity or just change the subject.

No. Someone who suggests that anyone on the left somehow wanted 9-11 to happen, or believed America deserved it, needs to be told to go fuck themselves. There are few times when saying "Fuck you" is a permissible response--indeed, the only one.
This happens to be one of them.

569 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:24:56pm

re: #556 eclectic infidel You haven't been reading the comments.

570 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:25:34pm

re: #544 iceweasel

Is this information relevant to waterboarding and other 'enhanced interrogation' torture that was approved for use on three individuals years ago, not not being used? I'm not trying to minimize that nor dispatch your point but its important to clarify what we're really discussing here.

571 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:25:53pm

re: #566 swamprat

Were those from interrogation, or are those just an unsorted collection of deaths stacked together as propaganda?

lol. You're accusing the DOD autopsy reports, released under the FOIA, to be 'propaganda'?

572 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:26:01pm

re: #568 iceweasel

Although Fuck You is the only statement that can be changed from negative to positive with a simple change of punctuation.

i.e. Fuck You! vs. Fuck You?

573 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:26:53pm

re: #567 PT Barnum

re: #567 PT Barnum

Shorter right wing attitude on torture...it's okay as long as we do it to other people who really aren't people anyway.


and it saves lives and does not cause permanent harm

But I know you meant that/

574 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:26:55pm

re: #562 iceweasel

Do your own research now, pal. Hint: we'll never know if any of them were terrorists or not, because they were fucking tortured to death before anyone found out.

Do my own research? You post some random autopsy results without attribution or explanation and I deserve a snippy answer?

575 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:27:08pm

I bloody well quit. I really can't get into a torture debate right now.

576 brookly red  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:27:58pm

re: #572 PT Barnum

Although Fuck You is the only statement that can be changed from negative to positive with a simple change of punctuation.

i.e. Fuck You! vs. Fuck You?

/depends on the meaning of the word fuck...

577 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:28:00pm

re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote

I bloody well quit. I really can't get into a torture debate right now.

Go play kick the French dog. You'll feel better.

/

578 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:28:13pm

re: #556 eclectic infidel

I wonder how many lizards who support the use of torture also identify as "pro-life?" For those who do, how does, say water boarding fit into the whole scheme of life being "sacred?"

I suspect that some may make a distinction between "innocent" and "possibly not innocent" life.

There is no distinction between innocent and possibly not innocent, or even "guilty" lives. Why are you trying to change the subject, and what are you trying to change it to?

579 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:28:16pm

re: #574 Bagua

Do my own research? You post some random autopsy results without attribution or explanation and I deserve a snippy answer?

You seem to lack reading comprehension here. These were not random reports. These were DOD autopsies of killed prisoners.

580 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:28:38pm

re: #570 BigPapa

Is this information relevant to waterboarding and other 'enhanced interrogation' torture that was approved for use on three individuals years ago, not not being used? I'm not trying to minimize that nor dispatch your point but its important to clarify what we're really discussing here.

Yes, it is. Those murders were in many cases the direct result of the EIT-- the 'enhanced interrogation techniques', i.e., torture. Just read the reports for yourself and you can see that. Read the 2004 CIA report I also linked and you'll see the CIA itself came to that same conclusion.

People say it didn't happen; some of us are telling you it did.
You scream for links, we provide them.
It's a bit much to expect us to do the reading for you all as well.

581 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:28:39pm

re: #559 iceweasel

Willful blindness aided by a media that was all too happy to claim that anyone who had any questions about torture or the treatment of detainees loved terrorists-- just like our pal the misnamed Sanity Inspector just tried to do above.

Fair enough Ice but that has cut both ways making it hard to have a real discussion about it. If you don't yell 'IT"S F***CKING TORTURE JUST LIKE THE JAPANESE!" then somehow... we're just like the WW II Japanese or armchair hawks bent on revenge.

Hard to go anywhere with it.

582 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:28:46pm

re: #542 PT Barnum

WTF does that have to do with whether or not we torture people?

Nothing. I suspect though that he was trying to insinuate that those here who view waterboarding as torture, and who oppose it do so out of sympathy for the terrorists. Complete bollocks of course.

583 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:28:51pm

re: #565 LudwigVanQuixote

Torture is a profanity you asshole. Defending it is a profanity. Asshole.

Jeepers Ludwig, do you always have to get so emotional and personal? This isn't a schoolyard you know. We can disagree and be civil to our opponents.

584 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:29:00pm

I am willing to concede that there is little that is black and white where this issue is concerned...but I also think that those of you right of center need to concede that being anti-torture has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ON EARTH to do with being pro-terrorist or anti-American.

585 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:29:01pm

re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote

Thank you for trying, LVQ. I'd give you an upding on all of it if I could...

William

586 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:29:17pm

re: #563 albusteve

what is your point?...thousands of Japanese were executed outright on Saipan and Okinawa and most Marines had no problem with it...what is your actual military experience?...did you read a book?

Indeed. After we discovered several Japanese atrocities in the Philippines, most of our soldiers would no longer take any Japanese prisoners. Any encountered were killed.

587 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:29:27pm

What the Hell? We are back to whether waterboarding is torture?
oh my...
I believe we can drug a terrorists to find out what he knows one time..
When I had my wisdom teeth taken out at 18 yr.old Those drugs I was on made a nurse blush.. I remember that part
/So embarrassing I was talking like crazy. drug those crazies one time..
That s the limit
John McCain.. A man I deeply respect and who I voted for as President says Waterboarding is Torture.. I will stand behind my man.. The only person that has any creed on this topic is mr. McCain.. If he says waterboarding is torture then it is torture.. Period amen..end of discussion...

588 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:29:44pm

re: #567 PT Barnum

Shorter right wing attitude on torture...it's okay as long as we do it to other people who really aren't people anyway.

Way to inject partisan politics into an issue of national security.
You just showed your true colours - to you and others like you it is a partisan political issue.
Feh.

589 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:29:46pm

re: #571 iceweasel

Unsorted IW.
The topic is torture/interrogation. Deaths while in custody is not necessarily the same.

590 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:29:57pm

re: #436 Dark_Falcon

Khalid Sheik Mohammad wouldn't think twice about getting one of his lackeys to saw you head off with a dull blade. I could care less if someone puts a face cloth over his nose while he's on a decline press or if we make him wear a diaper. I could care freakin' less.

591 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:30:25pm

I propose we pass a law banning all bad things. Nobody shall have anything bad happen to them at any time. The US Federal Government shall stand behind this guarantee.

592 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:30:34pm

re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote

I bloody well quit. I really can't get into a torture debate right now.

good choice...and don't let your indignation kick you in the ass on the way out

593 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:30:48pm

re: #579 LudwigVanQuixote

You seem to lack reading comprehension here. These were not random reports. These were DOD autopsies of killed prisoners.

OK, thank you, that was my question. If they died having been captured in combat, then it doesn't surprise me that they may have suffered violence. If it violates ROE then it should be investigated, if not, oh well.

594 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:30:54pm

re: #574 Bagua

Easy guy. It is late. Are we not all lizards?

595 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:31:15pm

re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote

I bloody well quit. I really can't get into a torture debate right now.

Don't let the door hit you where the Lord split you...

596 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:31:26pm

re: #591 cliffster

I propose we pass a law banning all bad things. Nobody shall have anything bad happen to them at any time. The US Federal Government shall stand behind this guarantee.

Mr. President, is that you?

///

597 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:31:45pm
598 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:32:06pm

re: #594 swamprat

Easy guy. It is late. Are we not all lizards?

Agreed, I'm asking why the snippy with me, no trying to escalate.

599 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:32:59pm

re: #587 HoosierHoops

Hi Hoops:

Youtube Video
600 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:33:16pm

re: #586 Dark_Falcon


Indeed. After we discovered several Japanese atrocities in the Philippines, most of our soldiers would no longer take any Japanese prisoners. Any encountered were killed.

Which is a valid point made by the respected opposition.

601 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:33:51pm

re: #588 Spare O'Lake

I don't see a lot of people left of the center line advocating or defending torture.

It seems to be a right wing opinion exclusively. Now that is not saying that all conservatives believe that torture was justified or effective. That is an inference I did not intend to make and I apologize to anyone who might have been offended.

602 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:33:59pm

re: #590 Canadian Guy

Khalid Sheik Mohammad wouldn't think twice about getting one of his lackeys to saw you head off with a dull blade. I could care less if someone puts a face cloth over his nose while he's on a decline press or if we make him wear a diaper. I could care freakin' less.

Thank you, and thank god our Special Forces and Intelligence Agents are willing to risk their lives to pursue these terrorists and thwart their evil plots.

603 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:34:11pm

re: #583 Bagua

It's hard to be civil about war crimes. Should I be civil about what was disclosed at Nuremberg? And, yeah, what we're talking about was equal to what was dealt with there. Most people only remember the big stuff - the camps & the Einsatzgruppen - but there were lots of other war crimes and executions as a result of them. Go read it yourself, if you dare.

What changed?

William

604 freetoken  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:34:17pm

re: #597 TheDorkLord

Because it is now standard practice over there, and with the passive approval of the people who run the place.

605 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:34:19pm

for the gonners...some Stones

Youtube Video
606 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:35:38pm

re: #599 Sharmuta

Hi Hoops:


[Video]

Hi beautiful! College football is on!
How the heck are you?

607 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:35:56pm

re: #544 iceweasel

It doesn't surprise me, though I'd have to know for about the context to reach a final conclusion. As a start, some of those deaths were likely wrong, maybe all of them. As to what happened, my guess would be that those killed were killed as retribution of a kind. Most those quoted were in 2002. That soon after 9/11, they were likely killed by their guards as payback for what had happened. Not the first time prisoners have be killed for their compatriots actions. Doesn't make it right of course.

608 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:36:15pm

re: #603 wlewisiii

It's hard to be civil about war crimes. Should I be civil about what was disclosed at Nuremberg? And, yeah, what we're talking about was equal to what was dealt with there. Most people only remember the big stuff - the camps & the Einsatzgruppen - but there were lots of other war crimes and executions as a result of them. Go read it yourself, if you dare.

What changed?

William

You have no idea how evil and offensive that statement is.

609 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:36:24pm

re: #586 Dark_Falcon

Indeed. After we discovered several Japanese atrocities in the Philippines, most of our soldiers would no longer take any Japanese prisoners. Any encountered were killed.

BTW, for those who like to pretend that people who oppose torture hate America and hate our troops, this is one of the primary arguments against torture-- it endangers US troops who are captured.

(I know you don't think that way DF of course, I'm offering it up for those who do).

610 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:36:25pm

re: #446 LudwigVanQuixote

Excuse me?

Worst of all, if you convince an enemy that you will torture them upon capture, they will not surrender. They will fight to the last and that means you must kill them and risk more of your own men. In other words, it costs more lives than it saves..

Clearly you don't have a clue who we're fighting. Get a a freakin' clue.

611 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:36:27pm

re: #564 LudwigVanQuixote

So spare me the hurt feelings. If you stand by an foolish statement in the face of all evidence you get challenged.

It's not about me feelings LVQ. It's about yours. They get in the way debate of which I'm trying to have, and that's not whether waterboarding is torture on not. Instead you're stating premises as facts and calling anybody who's foolish enough to challenge you an idiot.

So is it even possible to discuss this subject with you without acting like George Costanza's parents going full bore as soon as it's Game On?

612 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:36:35pm

I doubt very much anyone will change the other's mind, but it's good to have the discussion.

That being said, I gotta go take care of my sick kid (he has the flu).

Take care all.

613 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:36:59pm

re: #578 reine.de.tout

There is no distinction between innocent and possibly not innocent, or even "guilty" lives. Why are you trying to change the subject, and what are you trying to change it to?

Thank you for your answer.

I was not trying to change the subject. I think that torture directly affects the quality of life of someone. Don't you?

614 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:37:04pm

re: #605 albusteve

for the gonners...some Stones


Always welcome.

615 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:37:55pm

re: #606 HoosierHoops

Hi beautiful! College football is on!
How the heck are you?

I'm good tonight, {Hoops}. Always good to see you, Darlin'. Go team!

616 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:37:55pm

re: #593 Bagua

OK, thank you, that was my question. If they died having been captured in combat, then it doesn't surprise me that they may have suffered violence. If it violates ROE then it should be investigated, if not, oh well.

No, they died in prisons and in cells.

617 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:38:12pm

re: #608 Bagua

You have no idea how evil and offensive that statement is.

I found those of us left of center being quizzed about our feelings on 9/11 to be evil and offensive.

618 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:38:25pm

re: #603 wlewisiii

So defending enhanced interrogation against a couple of terrorist leaders is equivalent to Nazi atrocities?

Will you be carrying signs to that effect at the next protests with the rest of the lunatics?

619 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:38:46pm

re: #612 PT Barnum

I doubt very much anyone will change the other's mind, but it's good to have the discussion.

That being said, I gotta go take care of my sick kid (he has the flu).

Take care all.

The flu is awful. Hope your kid gets over it quickly.

620 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:38:47pm

re: #614 Dark_Falcon

Always welcome.

stay tuned, the next song is even better by a long way...

621 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:39:14pm

re: #612 PT Barnum

Sure, stir shit up and run! /

Have a good one...hope the kid feels better.

622 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:39:21pm

re: #617 bratwurst

I found those of us left of center being quizzed about our feelings on 9/11 to be evil and offensive.

I find the assumption that those of us who are left of centre didn't lose people on 9-11 to be evil and offensive.

623 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:39:48pm

re: #580 iceweasel

People say it didn't happen; some of us are telling you it did.
You scream for links, we provide them.

I didn't say 'it' didn't happen, I'm just trying to clarify what 'it' actually is. This isn't my first time around this mulberry bush either but maybe there's something you've found I haven't seen yet. But then again, I'm not screaming either, so you're reacting to something other than me.

624 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:40:10pm

re: #567 PT Barnum

Shorter right wing attitude on torture...it's okay as long as we do it to other people who really aren't people anyway.

I didn't see anyone saying it's OK to do to "other people who really aren't people anyway".

And Eclectic Infidel with your scare quotes around "sacred":

re: #556 eclectic infidel

I wonder how many lizards who support the use of torture also identify as "pro-life?" For those who do, how does, say water boarding fit into the whole scheme of life being "sacred?"

I suspect that some may make a distinction between "innocent" and "possibly not innocent" life.

I am probably one of the most pro-life folks here, and all life is sacred. There is no distinction between innocent, maybe guilty or even the one you left out - most definitely guilty - all life is sacred.

And for that reason I am against the death penalty, and against murdering people in any way, for whatever reason, including "accidentally" through torture or enhanced interrogation techniques.

The discussion here was about torture, and why you suddenly feel a need to try to indict pro-lifers is beyond me.

625 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:40:22pm

re: #616 iceweasel

No, they died in prisons and in cells.

Under what conditions? When were they captured? Who caused the injuries?

These are clearly not the couple that were waterboarded so their autopsy reports are hardly relative.

626 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:41:13pm

re: #613 eclectic infidel

Thank you for your answer.

I was not trying to change the subject. I think that torture directly affects the quality of life of someone. Don't you?

yes.
of course.
I still take issue with your attempt to indict pro-lifers. Which is what I think you were doing.

627 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:41:55pm

re: #610 Canadian Guy

Clearly you don't have a clue who we're fighting. Get a a freakin' clue.

That's always the excuse used in wartime to justify atrocities and the erosion of civil liberties. This war, this enemy, is always the worst ever, always so terribly evil that it justifies trading away our values and some of our freedoms, just so we'll be safe.

It's bullshit. It was bullshit when it was used to inter the Japanese. It was bullshit when other countries have done it. And it's bullshit when the US does it.

628 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:42:35pm

re: #617 bratwurst

I found those of us left of center being quizzed about our feelings on 9/11 to be evil and offensive.

And it wasn't I who quizzed your feelings on 9/11.

Does every offense justify lashing out in the other direction? That does not encourage civil discourse.

629 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:44:23pm

re: #625 Bagua

Under what conditions? When were they captured? Who caused the injuries?

These are clearly not the couple that were waterboarded so their autopsy reports are hardly relative.

They were detainees murdered in US custody, due to beatings, strangulation, and more. It's pretty fucking relevant.

Go read the links and the DOD autopsy reports. Your total ignorance of this issue has already been exposed. There comes a point when you're going to have to actually do some reading rather than waiting for other people to spoonfeed you the info.

630 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:44:32pm

re: #608 Bagua

I considered it carefully - but there remains a reality that all of the crimes of Nuremberg are evil. All of them. Not some of them. That's what's very sad about what you are saying - somethings are more evil than others. To have that pointed out may well offend you; sorry but I will stand by my statement - All of them were evil.

We engage in selective vision all too often. I've done it. You have done it. Everyone has. That doesn't mean any of us are right when we indulge in our blacker sides by doing just that.

(Sorry Charles. I hope I am still within the bounds here.)

William

631 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:44:35pm

re: #615 Sharmuta

I'm good tonight, {Hoops}. Always good to see you, Darlin'. Go team!

Tell me now..Post it for the world..
I do not have a hoosier accent..I have a NorCal accent.. I can say wash not wersh...These people drive me crazy...I'm sorry but Hoosiers talk like hillbillies...Hicks...It's embarrassing! Sorry!
Tell them Sharm..I don't speak like a Hoosier.I just live here
*wink*

632 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:44:39pm

re: #627 iceweasel

That's always the excuse used in wartime to justify atrocities and the erosion of civil liberties. This war, this enemy, is always the worst ever, always so terribly evil that it justifies trading away our values and some of our freedoms, just so we'll be safe.

It's bullshit. It was bullshit when it was used to inter the Japanese. It was bullshit when other countries have done it. And it's bullshit when the US does it.

Aeroplanes destroying office building, bombs on subway lines, and plots to commit mass murder of civilians is not "war."

633 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:46:11pm

re: #628 Bagua

I agree. Just making a point to you that the way you feel about US tactics being compared to Nazi crimes is not so different from how some of us feel when we are accused of being anti-American or pro-terrorist when opposing torture.

634 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:46:24pm

re: #609 iceweasel

BTW, for those who like to pretend that people who oppose torture hate America and hate our troops, this is one of the primary arguments against torture-- it endangers US troops who are captured.

(I know you don't think that way DF of course, I'm offering it up for those who do).

Fair enough, though the argument does not sway me. This will sound callus but I view the risk of such mistreatment as simply one that must be run. Do not ask about how I would feel about being on the receiving end of such treatment. My own convictions are Death Before Dishonor. I would kill myself before surrendering, or at least I'd like to think I would.

635 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:46:25pm

re: #629 iceweasel

They were detainees murdered in US custody, due to beatings, strangulation, and more. It's pretty fucking relevant.

Go read the links and the DOD autopsy reports. Your total ignorance of this issue has already been exposed. There comes a point when you're going to have to actually do some reading rather than waiting for other people to spoonfeed you the info.

OK, so it has nothing to do with the water-boarding of a couple of Al Queda terrorist masterminds.

And you insult is gratuitous, just because I disagree with you does not mean that I am ignorant or have been 'exposed.'

Chill.

636 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:46:36pm

re: #627 iceweasel

That's always the excuse used in wartime to justify atrocities and the erosion of civil liberties. This war, this enemy, is always the worst ever, always so terribly evil that it justifies trading away our values and some of our freedoms, just so we'll be safe.

It's bullshit. It was bullshit when it was used to inter the Japanese. It was bullshit when other countries have done it. And it's bullshit when the US does it.

too bad...so what then?...you wanna bring Bush up on charges?...it's done now, so what's all the postage about?...one persons bullshit is another persons safety

637 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:47:16pm

re: #627 iceweasel

That's always the excuse used in wartime to justify atrocities and the erosion of civil liberties. This war, this enemy, is always the worst ever, always so terribly evil that it justifies trading away our values and some of our freedoms, just so we'll be safe.

It's bullshit. It was bullshit when it was used to inter the Japanese. It was bullshit when other countries have done it. And it's bullshit when the US does it.

Ice - I looked at the links you provided.
It shows a list of people who died after being captured, and a list of their injuries and the reasons for the deaths.

Some of them say "natural causes".
Others clearly died from injuries.
What's not clear to me in that report is how the injuries came to be.

Some of the injuries could have come from the captors. Or could have occurred during the process of the capture. Or could have occurred during a process using "enhanced interrogation techniques". I couldn't easily find that specific information in that linked information.

I haven't concluded that deaths from torture did not happen; but it's just not clear in that information.

It seems that BigPapa and Bagua are having some trouble finding that information, too.


re: #623 BigPapa

I didn't say 'it' didn't happen, I'm just trying to clarify what 'it' actually is. This isn't my first time around this mulberry bush either but maybe there's something you've found I haven't seen yet. But then again, I'm not screaming either, so you're reacting to something other than me.


re: #625 Bagua

Under what conditions? When were they captured? Who caused the injuries?

These are clearly not the couple that were waterboarded so their autopsy reports are hardly relative.

638 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:47:25pm

re: #603 wlewisiii

Should I be civil about what was disclosed at Nuremberg?

A clear Godwin's Law violation. I guess it's not possible to be civil when we're discussing something such as waterboarding (BECAUSE ITS TORTURE!!!) on 3 significant targets a few years ago, and possibly some other instances of skulduggery related to such in a massive security mindset shift and war theater in a few countries compiled of tens of millions of inhabitants.

Fair enough it was viewed as wrong to torture (waterboard) some men in specific instances, even vociferously. Is it possible to even put some perspective on this?

639 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:47:29pm

re: #632 Bagua

Aeroplanes destroying office building, bombs on subway lines, and plots to commit mass murder of civilians is not "war."

Iraq isn't a war? Nice way to run around the geneva convention. I don't think Yoo is hiring any more though; your legal expertise won't be required there.

(But keep your CV on file for the Obama admin's DOJ. )

640 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:47:33pm

re: #631 HoosierHoops

Tell me now..Post it for the world..
I do not have a hoosier accent..I have a NorCal accent.. I can say wash not wersh...These people drive me crazy...I'm sorry but Hoosiers talk like hillbillies...Hicks...It's embarrassing! Sorry!
Tell them Sharm..I don't speak like a Hoosier.I just live here
*wink*

HEY PEOPLE! Hoops has the sweetest voice, and he and I had the nicest chat. He sounds like a California boy to me. ;D

641 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:47:39pm

re: #603 wlewisiii

The fact that feel so strongly indicates how upset we are about this. Those who defend it do so only out of neccessity. It is something which chaffs against our feelings of decency. Or at least it should.

642 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:47:53pm

re: #633 bratwurst

I agree. Just making a point to you that the way you feel about US tactics being compared to Nazi crimes is not so different from how some of us feel when we are accused of being anti-American or pro-terrorist when opposing torture.

Yes, I also condemn suggesting those who oppose enhanced interrogation want us to be attacked. I don't understand why people have to be so offensive when talking about a political issue.

643 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:47:59pm

re: #624 reine.de.tout

The discussion here was about torture, and why you suddenly feel a need to try to indict pro-lifers is beyond me.

I injected the pro-life subject because it is a related topic, IMO.

It has been my experience that those who embrace the pro-life/anti-abortion stance do so in a vacuum. That is, while they rage for the rights of the unborn, they take no issue with capital punishment, for example. Given that torture directly affects one's quality of life (especially if the one tortured dies in captivity), I felt the need to inquire further. I admit, the post was made with bias, but I won't apologize for that.

I was sincere when I thanked you for your answer. I've met very few pro-lifers, either online or in real life, who have adopted the same stance as you have.

644 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:48:02pm

re: #632 Bagua

Aeroplanes destroying office building, bombs on subway lines, and plots to commit mass murder of civilians is not "war."

The people who eroded the civil liberties in question say otherwise.

645 Dar ul Harb  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:49:29pm

re: #502 The Sanity Inspector

There should be more Persians like Freddie and less like Dinner Jacket in the world.

'Course, they're hanging the ones like Freddie if they find them. Should be the reverse, certainly.

646 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:49:35pm

re: #71 Charles

("aengus" had an account at LGF too, now blocked.)

This idea that the Tower of Babel was destroyed and the nations sundered apart is a very common theme among white supremacists of the Christian Identity stripe. They use it as justification for keeping the races apart, with "emperors" to rule over them -- because God wanted it that way.

What a sick, bizarre interpretation.

647 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:49:45pm

re: #639 iceweasel

Iraq isn't a war? Nice way to run around the geneva convention. I don't think Yoo is hiring any more though; your legal expertise won't be required there.

(But keep your CV on file for the Obama admin's DOJ. )

the G Convention is of no concern...read it

648 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:49:59pm

re: #644 Jimmah

The people who eroded the civil liberties in question say otherwise.

Those are weasel words, Terrorism against innocent civilians is not an act of war, their groups are not armies, and they do not have "civil liberties."

649 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:51:00pm

re: #637 reine.de.tout

Some of those deaths are labelled "homicide", over 100 of them I think. They were murdered in US custody. Not 'died of wounds suffered from being captured". (BTW, we're required to give medical treatment to anyone who'd been injured while fighting anyway.)

Read the descriptions of the circumstances of deaths. Some of them were beaten to death. Some died with their restraints on. Some died because they were left in stress positions too long.

650 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:51:33pm

re: #523 The Sanity Inspector

Since no one's picking up on it, I encourage you to watch that Al Jarreau.

My cable provider has banned Al Jarreau.

651 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:51:48pm

re: #639 iceweasel

Iraq isn't a war? Nice way to run around the geneva convention. I don't think Yoo is hiring any more though; your legal expertise won't be required there.

(But keep your CV on file for the Obama admin's DOJ. )

Why the insults Iceweasel? We were talking about a couple of Al Queda masterminds captured in Pakistan and Afghanistan, not the war in Iraq.

652 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:52:18pm

re: #634 Dark_Falcon

I would kill myself before surrendering, or at least I'd like to think I would.

Ok, but does that make it easier to put others in that position, others who may not feel the same way?

653 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:53:59pm
654 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:54:29pm

re: #641 swamprat

The fact that feel so strongly indicates how upset we are about this. Those who defend it do so only out of neccessity. It is something which chaffs against our feelings of decency. Or at least it should.

To be sure. I am worked up over this, both from my political perspective and having been an NCO. I'll not respond to these comments more tonight because it's not doing either side of the debate any good. All I wish to say is that I still take my oath on joining the army very seriously.

Good night, lizards.

William

655 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:54:54pm

re: #642 Bagua

People on both sides of this issue (uh, pretty much ALL political issues) could do with more civility, no doubt about it.

656 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:55:19pm

re: #655 bratwurst

People on both sides of this issue (uh, pretty much ALL political issues) could do with more civility, no doubt about it.

Here, here.

657 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:55:42pm

re: #648 Bagua

Those are weasel words, Terrorism against innocent civilians is not an act of war, their groups are not armies, and they do not have "civil liberties."

What words are weasel words exactly? The words "War on Terror"?

658 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:55:43pm

re: #652 Jimmah

Ok, but does that make it easier to put others in that position, others who may not feel the same way?

who cares?...drop your weapon and do not confront the US Marines...pretty simple

659 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:55:54pm

re: #637 reine.de.tout

I haven't concluded that deaths from torture did not happen; but it's just not clear in that information.

That's where I'm at, as I was when I read some of that information as before. Maybe some of those deaths are actually attributable to EIT's policy misuse or egregiously moving outside of it for rogue reasons.

I'm not dismissing the information as irrelevant but it's not clear to me that it all ties together to EIT policies.

660 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:55:58pm

re: #649 iceweasel

That is valid.

661 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:57:00pm
662 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:57:20pm

Must shower. Play nice.

663 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:57:40pm

Ooops. my bad.

Please delete my #661.

664 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:57:56pm

re: #532 Dark_Falcon

That one is way over the line. I promise you; There is no way that Ludwig or iceweasel feel 9/11 was anything other than an evil act that America in no way caused nor invited.

No, but I wouldn't be surprised if they want to see Bush and Cheney charged as war criminals.

665 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:58:04pm

re: #649 iceweasel

Some of those deaths are labelled "homicide", over 100 of them I think. They were murdered in US custody. Not 'died of wounds suffered from being captured". (BTW, we're required to give medical treatment to anyone who'd been injured while fighting anyway.)

Read the descriptions of the circumstances of deaths. Some of them were beaten to death. Some died with their restraints on. Some died because they were left in stress positions too long.

Were all, some, or none of them being interrogated at the time? Because the use of force during interrogation is what we are discussing here, not whether killing or torturing prisoners is generally permissible.

666 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:58:43pm

re: #661 Bagua

Fear not: The British are increasing up their efforts with a view to win. The US is also turning up the pressure. No one is ignoring Afghanistan.


where? how?...I have not seen it...what pressure are you talking about?

667 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:58:52pm

re: #651 Bagua

Why the insults Iceweasel? We were talking about a couple of Al Queda masterminds captured in Pakistan and Afghanistan, not the war in Iraq.

We're talking about the torture issue, and it involves more than waterboarding, and more people were waterboarded (and otherwise tortured, and occasionally murdered) than 'a couple of Al Queda masterminds'.

I understand that it is much prettier and much more comfortable to believe that the US didn't torture, and that the US only used a couple of harsh techniques, and then only against maybe 2 really really bad guys, and it saved thousands of lives.

That gauzy fantasy isn't the reality though. Not by a long shot. And it makes me sick.
I am also especially angry because it just keeps getting worse.

Gitmo Detainee’s ‘Genitals Were Sliced With A Scalpel,’ Waterboarding ‘Far Down The List Of Things They Did’

668 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:58:52pm

re: #663 Bagua

Ooops. my bad.

Please delete my #661.

Thank you.

669 Mich-again  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:59:08pm

Impeach Obama? Ha. Its more likely that the Democrats will soon have the 2/3 majority they need in the Senate to convict impeached Supreme Court judges. The Dems already have the majority they need in the House.

670 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:59:30pm

re: #663 Bagua

Ooops. my bad.

Please delete my #661.

Wadja doo? Wadja doo?

671 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:59:48pm

re: #667 iceweasel

OK, I just think we can discuss it pleasantly.

672 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:00:08pm

re: #670 BigPapa

Wadja doo? Wadja doo?

I quoted a flouncer instead of using reply.

673 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:01:54pm

re: #649 iceweasel

It would have been very easy for the affected parties to avoid the situation. And the only thing that expanding the meaning of the word "torture" does is insult people who actually have been tortured.

674 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:02:36pm

re: #649 iceweasel

Some of those deaths are labelled "homicide", over 100 of them I think. They were murdered in US custody. Not 'died of wounds suffered from being captured". (BTW, we're required to give medical treatment to anyone who'd been injured while fighting anyway.)

Read the descriptions of the circumstances of deaths. Some of them were beaten to death. Some died with their restraints on. Some died because they were left in stress positions too long.


Yes, I read some of the descriptions, and yes, some died for the reasons you stated - left in stress positions too long, beaten to death.

Their use of "homicide" is what I find vague. Homicide occurs when a person is killed by the actions of another human being; and some of those listed "homicides" may have been deaths due to injuries sustained during the process of being captured. That's what is not clear.

Those homicides in that list that occurred because of beatings or other actions while in captivity - I couldn't find a way to pull those out of the information. 'Course the print is so small I can't look at it for too long (old eyes).

Look - there's no denying horrible things happened to some people at the hands of others - I just have trouble putting ALL of those in that list you posted into one big basket of being murders by torture.

I haven't jumped into this discussion because until I know that, I don't know what it is we're really talking about here.

BigPapa - yes, that's the trouble I'm having, too.
re: #659 BigPapa

That's where I'm at, as I was when I read some of that information as before. Maybe some of those deaths are actually attributable to EIT's policy misuse or egregiously moving outside of it for rogue reasons.

I'm not dismissing the information as irrelevant but it's not clear to me that it all ties together to EIT policies.

675 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:02:48pm

re: #667 iceweasel

We're talking about the torture issue, and it involves more than waterboarding, and more people were waterboarded (and otherwise tortured, and occasionally murdered) than 'a couple of Al Queda masterminds'.

I understand that it is much prettier and much more comfortable to believe that the US didn't torture, and that the US only used a couple of harsh techniques, and then only against maybe 2 really really bad guys, and it saved thousands of lives.

That gauzy fantasy isn't the reality though. Not by a long shot. And it makes me sick.
I am also especially angry because it just keeps getting worse.

Gitmo Detainee’s ‘Genitals Were Sliced With A Scalpel,’ Waterboarding ‘Far Down The List Of Things They Did’

I question the source for this story

676 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:02:56pm

re: #667 iceweasel

We're talking about the torture issue, and it involves more than waterboarding, and more people were waterboarded (and otherwise tortured, and occasionally murdered) than 'a couple of Al Queda masterminds'.

I understand that it is much prettier and much more comfortable to believe that the US didn't torture, and that the US only used a couple of harsh techniques, and then only against maybe 2 really really bad guys, and it saved thousands of lives.

That gauzy fantasy isn't the reality though. Not by a long shot. And it makes me sick.
I am also especially angry because it just keeps getting worse.

Gitmo Detainee’s ‘Genitals Were Sliced With A Scalpel,’ Waterboarding ‘Far Down The List Of Things They Did’

The conduct of the Iraq War by the military is a separate issue under different rules.

677 Mich-again  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:03:50pm

re: #643 eclectic infidel

That is, while they rage for the rights of the unborn, they take no issue with capital punishment, for example.

The Catholic church opposes both capital punishment and abortion. But you are right that many from the pro-life side have no problem at all with capital punishment.

678 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:04:04pm

re: #665 Spare O'Lake

Were all, some, or none of them being interrogated at the time? Because the use of force during interrogation is what we are discussing here, not whether killing or torturing prisoners is generally permissible.

Some of them died while left in stress positions. You can't seamlessly differentiate between 'during an interrogation' and 'not during an interrogation' where the EIT are concerned. They are specifically designed such that the prisoner is in effect always in interrogation: interrogations happen randomly and meanwhile the prisoner is subjected to random beatings, walling, left in stress positions, sleep deprived, etc-- all in order to break him down. The interrogation process doesn't really have a beginning or an end-- it's designed that way.

So trying to make a distinction like "were they being asked questions at the exact time they died" doesn't help.

679 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:04:08pm

re: #556 eclectic infidel

I wonder how many lizards who support the use of torture also identify as "pro-life?" For those who do, how does, say water boarding fit into the whole scheme of life being "sacred?"

I suspect that some may make a distinction between "innocent" and "possibly not innocent" life.

Not everyone who could care less about terrorists being waterboarded are fundies, okay. I'm not. You watch too much Bill Maher.

680 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:05:03pm

re: #673 cliffster

It would have been very easy for the affected parties to avoid the situation. And the only thing that expanding the meaning of the word "torture" does is insult people who actually have been tortured.

According to the Inspector General of the CIA, and the CIA's report, they were tortured. I already linked it. Go read the report.

681 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:06:35pm

re: #678 iceweasel

I see cliffster felt the need to downding me for this-- a purely factual post.

I always find that amusing. I understand downdinging for insults, say, or worse-- but simply because you don't like the facts being presented? Sad.

682 brookly red  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:06:50pm

re: #675 albusteve

yah think?

683 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:06:58pm

re: #680 iceweasel

According to the Inspector General of the CIA, and the CIA's report, they were tortured. I already linked it. Go read the report.

the CIA is unreliable at the moment...too many political issues...likely bunk as not, maybe more so

684 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:07:12pm

re: #678 iceweasel

Some of them died while left in stress positions. You can't seamlessly differentiate between 'during an interrogation' and 'not during an interrogation' where the EIT are concerned. They are specifically designed such that the prisoner is in effect always in interrogation: interrogations happen randomly and meanwhile the prisoner is subjected to random beatings, walling, left in stress positions, sleep deprived, etc-- all in order to break him down. The interrogation process doesn't really have a beginning or an end-- it's designed that way.

So trying to make a distinction like "were they being asked questions at the exact time they died" doesn't help.

I assume you are talking about captured terrorists who were using car bombs and suicide bombs and be-headings to terrorize civilians? As I recall thousands of innocent men, women and children were massacred in horrible ways.

I trust the US and Coalition troops did everything appropriate to deal with these threats, if they stepped over the line here and there, I'll not lose any sleep over it.

685 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:07:17pm

re: #675 albusteve

I question the source for this story

I have bad news for you. The source is the CIA itself.

686 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:07:17pm

re: #658 albusteve

who cares?...drop your weapon and do not confront the US Marines...pretty simple

That wasn't what Jimmah was saying. He was asking if my position made it easier for me to put other into it who did not want to be there. I haven't answered because I didn't have a coherent answer to give. Now I do:

It does make it easier, and it shouldn't. When I am certain about something, I tend to forget about other people's thoughts or feelings. It's a character flaw, and one I struggle with. Thank you for reminding me, Jimmah.

That said, my main point was that the risk of our troops being brutalized was one that had to be accepted. Ultimately, I think the risk a major terrorist attack is a far greater risk.

687 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:08:01pm

re: #683 albusteve

the CIA is unreliable at the moment...too many political issues...likely bunk as not, maybe more so

Did you think that in 2004?

Cos that's when the report I'm talking about -- and linked-- was done.

688 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:08:05pm

re: #685 iceweasel

I have bad news for you. The source is the CIA itself.

one of the very least credible sources of information these days

689 Kronocide  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:08:11pm

I have to do a temp flounce, wife instituted I swears.

Stay cool Ice.

690 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:08:14pm

re: #680 iceweasel

According to the Inspector General of the CIA, and the CIA's report, they were tortured. I already linked it. Go read the report.

Obama is the president. That make him more important than the inspector general of the CIA. And he says it's torture. And I still say it's not. So there's not one single person on the planet that you can name-drop that will change my mind. And what you're saying is a slap in the face to people who have actually been tortured.

691 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:08:39pm

re: #675 albusteve

I question the source for this story

As do I. ThinkProgress is a leftwing site that has lied in the past.

692 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:09:16pm

re: #687 iceweasel

Did you think that in 2004?

Cos that's when the report I'm talking about -- and linked-- was done.

yes, certainly

693 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:09:26pm

re: #658 albusteve

who cares?...drop your weapon and do not confront the US Marines...pretty simple

Non-sequitur of the thread so far, without doubt.

All hostile forces must surrender to America immediately. All your bases are belong to us.

694 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:10:15pm

re: #679 Canadian Guy

Not everyone who could care less about terrorists being waterboarded are fundies, okay. I'm not. You watch too much Bill Maher.

I personally know 2 fellow secularists who are pro-life.

I don't watch TV, incidentally. I gave it up nearly 6 years ago.
I'm on the Netflix plan interspersed with history books & fiction.

695 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:10:45pm

re: #684 Bagua

I trust the US and Coalition troops did everything appropriate to deal with these threats, if they stepped over the line here and there, I'll not lose any sleep over it.

Now we get to the meat of the matter. You'll simply refuse to believe anything that disproves what you WANT to believe ("I trust...") and when presented with evidence to the contrary, you've decided it doesn't matter. Torture, murder, genital slicing-- it's ok if the US does it, according to you.

We have nothing further to say to each other on this topic.

696 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:11:08pm

re: #88 swamprat

That is a slight misstatement. They allow "hate speech" because they cannot ascertain exactly what it is.

I wish this was a reduction ad absurdium.
It is more like a reduction ad nauseum.

Was it a misstatement that I'm disappointed, or that they'd let that vitriol continue?

Not sure what you mean, there, seeing as I didn't say a lot of things you're agreeing with.

697 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:11:12pm

re: #685 iceweasel

I have bad news for you. The source is the CIA itself.

So what? It is proof of the morality and civility of the US and Coalition forces that they consider the rights of the enemy.

Alternatively the terrorists massacred civilians on purpose, behead their captives, etc. When is the last time Al Qaeda investigated itself.

698 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:11:14pm

re: #568 iceweasel

No. Someone who suggests that anyone on the left somehow wanted 9-11 to happen, or believed America deserved it, needs to be told to go fuck themselves. .

Plenty of people on the left pretty much said America had it coming. Some were just a little more nuanced about it than others. You're definitely wrong if you think the way you think. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU GUYS HAVEN'T READ THIS STUFF.

699 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:11:46pm

re: #688 albusteve

one of the very least credible sources of information these days

2004, albusteve. 2004.
Deny, look away, clap louder and sing lalalaICANTHEARYOU all you want.

700 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:12:22pm

re: #695 iceweasel

Now we get to the meat of the matter. You'll simply refuse to believe anything that disproves what you WANT to believe ("I trust...") and when presented with evidence to the contrary, you've decided it doesn't matter. Torture, murder, genital slicing-- it's ok if the US does it, according to you.

We have nothing further to say to each other on this topic.

I simply refuse to believe? That is illogical Ice, I said it was irrelevant, not untrue.

701 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:12:35pm

re: #693 Jimmah

Non-sequitur of the thread so far, without doubt.

All hostile forces must surrender to America immediately. All your bases are belong to us.

who cares what you think?...ever wield an M4 with a bad guy down the sights?...probably not...stick to baking bread and let the Marines do the dirty work

702 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:12:52pm

re: #698 Canadian Guy

If you believe that 'plenty' or most or all of the left believed that America deserved 9-11, you need to go fuck yourself.

703 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:13:09pm

re: #678 iceweasel

Some of them died while left in stress positions. You can't seamlessly differentiate between 'during an interrogation' and 'not during an interrogation' where the EIT are concerned. They are specifically designed such that the prisoner is in effect always in interrogation: interrogations happen randomly and meanwhile the prisoner is subjected to random beatings, walling, left in stress positions, sleep deprived, etc-- all in order to break him down. The interrogation process doesn't really have a beginning or an end-- it's designed that way.
So trying to make a distinction like "were they being asked questions at the exact time they died" doesn't help.

Fair point insofar as stress positions, but you did skip over the homicides and beatings. Also, one cannot simply assume that all or even most, of your cited examples of torture/stress positions/killings took place in the context of an interrogation.
The result of such misuse of ambiguous examples and statistics is to prejudice the fair debate concerning the permissible boundaries of interrogation of terrorists.

704 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:13:46pm

re: #695 iceweasel

Now we get to the meat of the matter. You'll simply refuse to believe anything that disproves what you WANT to believe ("I trust...") and when presented with evidence to the contrary, you've decided it doesn't matter. Torture, murder, genital slicing-- it's ok if the US does it, according to you.

We have nothing further to say to each other on this topic.

your sources are highly suspect...but cut and run

705 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:14:48pm

re: #698 Canadian Guy

Plenty of people on the left pretty much said America had it coming. Some were just a little more nuanced about it than others. You're definitely wrong if you think the way you think. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU GUYS HAVEN'T READ THIS STUFF.

I was told that by a leftist minutes after the first tower fell.

706 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:15:07pm

re: #697 Bagua

So what? It is proof of the morality and civility of the US and Coalition forces that they consider the rights of the enemy.

Alternatively the terrorists massacred civilians on purpose, behead their captives, etc. When is the last time Al Qaeda investigated itself.

Like the right to a trial?
Like the right not to be tortured?
Like the right to habeas corpus?

When is the last time Al Qaeda investigated itself.

Look, if you think an acceptable moral standard is "USA!USA! Better than Al Qaeda!" -- have at it. Me, I think the US can do, and has done, a helluva lot better than Al Q.

707 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:15:15pm

re: #699 iceweasel

2004, albusteve. 2004.
Deny, look away, clap louder and sing lalalaICANTHEARYOU all you want.

the CIA is a very poor source for information

708 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:15:35pm

]re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote

I bloody well quit. I really can't get into a torture debate right now.

By torture debate you mean calling long time lizards idiots?

709 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:15:37pm

Just a drie-by, y'all...

710 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:16:28pm

re: #704 albusteve

your sources are highly suspect...but cut and run

My source is the CIA itself. Exactly who would you consider a better source on this issue, albusteve?

711 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:17:48pm

re: #706 iceweasel

Like the right to a trial?
Like the right not to be tortured?
Like the right to habeas corpus?

When is the last time Al Qaeda investigated itself.

Look, if you think an acceptable moral standard is "USA!USA! Better than Al Qaeda!" -- have at it. Me, I think the US can do, and has done, a helluva lot better than Al Q.

Iceweasel,

Habeas corpus and the right to a trial are not universal rights, terrorist in countries at war are governed by the ROE for that particular conflict. Sometimes bad things happen to those who would drive a car bomb into a group of children or pilgrims. Such people have no "rights."

712 albusteve  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:17:50pm

re: #710 iceweasel

My source is the CIA itself. Exactly who would you consider a better source on this issue, albusteve?

certainly not the feds...you are very gullible

713 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:17:54pm

re: #703 Spare O'Lake

Fair point insofar as stress positions, but you did skip over the homicides and beatings. Also, one cannot simply assume that all or even most, of your cited examples of torture/stress positions/killings took place in the context of an interrogation.
The result of such misuse of ambiguous examples and statistics is to prejudice the fair debate concerning the permissible boundaries of interrogation of terrorists.

Homicides took place in US custody. Why are you trying to obfuscate or minimise or otherwise justify this fact?
The stats are from the DOD, btw. Maybe you should tell someone they're aiding the terrorists?

714 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:18:59pm

Why has this thread turned into a screaming match?

I believe I was just mentioning how much work it took to run LGF, and how little it's been paying to do it recently... and here we have another catfight, with people on both sides emailing me and telling me I need to step in.

What does any of this have to do with the topic of the thread? I couldn't have asked for a better illustration of the kind of stuff I have to spend way too much time dealing with.

Unless everyone involved in this latest pissing match chills out right now, I'm going to close comments on this thread.

715 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:19:26pm

re: #711 Bagua

Iceweasel,

Habeas corpus and the right to a trial are not universal rights, terrorist in countries at war are governed by the ROE for that particular conflict. Sometimes bad things happen to those who would drive a car bomb into a group of children or pilgrims. Such people have no "rights."

These were people captured, tortured, and murdered. Find me the links that prove they had driven car bombs into groups of children, please.

You can't.

716 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:19:28pm

re: #686 Dark_Falcon

That wasn't what Jimmah was saying. He was asking if my position made it easier for me to put other into it who did not want to be there. I haven't answered because I didn't have a coherent answer to give. Now I do:

It does make it easier, and it shouldn't. When I am certain about something, I tend to forget about other people's thoughts or feelings. It's a character flaw, and one I struggle with. Thank you for reminding me, Jimmah.

That said, my main point was that the risk of our troops being brutalized was one that had to be accepted. Ultimately, I think the risk a major terrorist attack is a far greater risk.

Thanks DF. However I think we should pursue other, less questionable, less unreliable methods of obtaining information. And apart from the issue of the safety of soldiers on the front line, one thing the last 8 years have shown me is that America needs to be able to believe that it holds the moral high ground if it is to fight a war effectively, and with the support of it's people. I don't think that can be done with a policy of torturing prisoners.

717 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:20:28pm

re: #714 Charles

Agree strongly. Let's defend our positions with reason and respect for the other posters.

718 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:20:34pm

re: #241 iceweasel

Let it further be noted that they portray us as superheroes. lol.

Mockery fail.

(does say a lot about their obsessions, though)

I think your comic book image is very hot, Ice.

//Lord, what have we come to?

719 Mich-again  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:21:15pm

re: #710 iceweasel

My source is the CIA itself. Exactly who would you consider a better source on this issue, albusteve?

Mary McCarthy perhaps?

720 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:21:17pm

So'd I miss anything?

Son's fever is down, thank God.

721 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:21:58pm

re: #714 Charles

Why has this thread turned into a screaming match?

I believe I was just mentioning how much work it took to run LGF, and how little it's been paying to do it recently... and here we have another catfight, with people on both sides emailing me and telling me I need to step in.

What does any of this have to do with the topic of the thread? I couldn't have asked for a better illustration of the kind of stuff I have to spend way too much time dealing with.

Unless everyone involved in this latest pissing match chills out right now, I'm going to close comments on this thread.

It's a highly emotional issue. People got carried away. For my part in the screaming, I apologize.

722 ~Fianna  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:22:11pm

re: #701 albusteve

who cares what you think?...ever wield an M4 with a bad guy down the sights?...probably not...stick to baking bread and let the Marines do the dirty work

Wow, way to be a sexist jerk.

Fuck off.

723 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:23:12pm

I don't know if those bonehead Hot Air readers realize this but that Zogby poll was done with Mexicans in Mexico.

It was not done with Mexican-Americans or Mexicans in the United States.

724 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:24:56pm
Youtube Video
725 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:25:42pm

re: #723 Gus 802

I don't know if those bonehead Hot Air readers realize this but that Zogby poll was done with Mexicans in Mexico.

It was not done with Mexican-Americans or Mexicans in the United States.

Yeah, I noticed that earlier...glad you brought it up. I'm perfectly happy to go back to bashing HotAir.

726 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:25:57pm

re: #696 Noam Sayin'

Basically, I'm saying they were even worse than what you said.
Easy, Noam.

727 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:26:16pm

re: #719 Mich-again

Mary McCarthy perhaps?

It's the official CIA internal report.

728 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:26:20pm

This one's for you HOT AIR:

Youtube Video
729 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:26:49pm

re: #723 Gus 802

I don't know if those bonehead Hot Air readers realize this but that Zogby poll was done with Mexicans in Mexico.

It was not done with Mexican-Americans or Mexicans in the United States.

Which poll is that?
Is this in their "greenroom" or headlines or where?
(just looked, can't find it, I'm an idiot, I'll admit it)

730 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:27:13pm

re: #721 Dark_Falcon

It's a highly emotional issue. People got carried away. For my part in the screaming, I apologize.

Agreed and I wish to apologize as well. From a newby, it's probably especially galling for older members.

Really going to bed now... Really!

William

731 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:27:56pm

re: #725 iceweasel

Yeah, I noticed that earlier...glad you brought it up. I'm perfectly happy to go back to bashing HotAir.

I just got back from some errands and missed the fracas. Yes, I noticed that the CNS report failed (for obvious reasons) to link to the actual report. I'm sure they were perfectly happy to have it misinterpreted. The report is here:

Public Opinion in Mexico on U.S. Immigration: Zogby Poll Examines Attitudes

By Steven A. Camarota
October 2009
Backgrounders and Reports

Click here to download a pdf version of this Backgrounder

732 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:28:19pm

Just got done reviewing the thread...holy shit you guys...all this from an explanation of why BDS hit some of us after 2001?

That said, and to raise the level of discourse, the guys at Hot Air are a bunch of doodie heads. 8^{)]

733 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:28:35pm

re: #729 reine.de.tout

Which poll is that?
Is this in their "greenroom" or headlines or where?
(just looked, can't find it, I'm an idiot, I'll admit it)

Headlines. It's linked at the top of this thread with an update Charles put up.

I just linked the actual study.

734 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:28:59pm

re: #729 reine.de.tout

Which poll is that?
Is this in their "greenroom" or headlines or where?
(just looked, can't find it, I'm an idiot, I'll admit it)

No- it's not you. It's their site. It's horrible. It's a craptacular of ill organization. And that's just the lay out- we haven't even talked about the content, or the overall blandness of the site. But then again- if I had people like stacy mccain at my site, I'd be reluctant to showcase that too.

735 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:29:30pm

re: #724 Bagua

Let's rally together to the sounds of Yusef Islam!

736 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:30:00pm

Come to think of it. If only 69% of Mexicans in Mexico think their primary loyalty is with Mexico then that's bad news for Mexico.

737 Splatt  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:31:17pm

Is anyone watching this Angels/Yankees game? It's bananas. Top of the 12th - 3 - 3.

738 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:31:42pm
Youtube Video
739 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:31:49pm

re: #733 Gus 802

Headlines. It's linked at the top of this thread with an update Charles put up.

I just linked the actual study.

found it, thanks.

740 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:32:04pm

re: #737 Splatt

Yeah, watching all of the wet people shiver in their $2000 seats at 12:30 AM!

741 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:32:34pm

They are still talking about Rush on the MSM
I love this! The last apology was if Vick can play in the NFL...
It is getting ugly on the airwaves..
Do you really think the NFL wants to sit on the edge of it's seat for 3 hours every day of the year worried about what an NFL owner might say..
Sure fine Rush 25,000 dollars for every comment..who cares...The dude is like Mark Cuban on Steriods
Lucky for us..Rush will never be the owner of any sports teams..
There is justice..Sorry about your luck Rush...
/Don't feel bad.. So how much interest do you make on 400 million dollars a year? Who is your agent?
/I'm sorry...Rush..The sports World freaking hates you..It is wide and deep..You know it.. Stay in your world...Come back to sports again it would be a big mistake...Don't believe me? Try buying a Toledo baseball team in the Morning...Not a chance...
Go away Rush from Sports..Go the freak away..We don't like you..
Even if you wanted to buy the worst team in the world.. Say the Lions...People would still hate you...With passion.So shut the hell up and stay out of sports...Bye Rush!

742 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:32:51pm

re: #728 Sharmuta

This one's for you HOT AIR:

Here's another :

Youtube Video
743 avanti  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:33:13pm

re: #721 Dark_Falcon

It's a highly emotional issue. People got carried away. For my part in the screaming, I apologize.

It's simple, some folks feel torture is necessarily to protect the republic, others think torture is a threat to what the republic stands for, and the two sides will never agree. That's my only comment on that subject.

744 Splatt  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:33:19pm

re: #740 bratwurst

Ha. I was JUST telling my girlfriend, who's Iranian and doesn't get baseball at all, that those seats cost $2K, and she doesn't believe me.

745 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:33:56pm

I know we must knock it off. And I appreciate that. But several good points have been raised and I would like to examine this further.

But not tonight. Definitely not tonight.

746 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:34:13pm

Cry Tunes

Youtube Video
747 Mich-again  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:34:37pm

re: #727 iceweasel

It's the official CIA internal report.

True. But she was fired for leaking secrets to the media about illegal secret prisons the CIA was operating outside the USA (allegedly). So perhaps you can't always trust the official report.

748 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:34:51pm

re: #713 iceweasel

Homicides took place in US custody. Why are you trying to obfuscate or minimise or otherwise justify this fact?
The stats are from the DOD, btw. Maybe you should tell someone they're aiding the terrorists?

I asked whether the homicides were connected with interrogations and this is the best you can do? Okay, then I must conclude that there is no evidence that they were, and thus your use of these homicide statistics in a debate about interrogation techniques was bogus.
So who is obfuscating?

749 Splatt  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:35:23pm

This thread is torture.

750 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:36:04pm

re: #627 iceweasel

That's always the excuse used in wartime to justify atrocities and the erosion of civil liberties. This war, this enemy, is always the worst ever, always so terribly evil that it justifies trading away our values and some of our freedoms, just so we'll be safe.

It's bullshit. It was bullshit when it was used to inter the Japanese. It was bullshit when other countries have done it. And it's bullshit when the US does it.

Mark iceweasel down as another person who doesn't get it. Who else?

751 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:36:15pm

Everyone just chill now...c'mon...

Youtube Video
752 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:36:19pm

re: #743 avanti

If I could give you more than one upding for that statement I would.

753 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:36:23pm

re: #749 Splatt


Well said. I would not wish reading this upon Bin Laden OR Dick Cheney.

754 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:36:27pm

re: #748 Spare O'Lake

re: #747 Mich-again


Look! A shiny button!

755 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:36:28pm

One more note: as unpleasant and angry as some of the exchanges have been in this thread, I'd much rather have this going on -- a heated discussion on issues that really matter -- than the delusional ranting and hateful raging that takes place in every thread at Hot Air.

This isn't supposed to be a green light to start fighting again. I just need to say that.

756 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:36:34pm

re: #745 swamprat

I know we must knock it off. And I appreciate that. But several good points have been raised and I would like to examine this further.

But not tonight. Definitely not tonight.

Quite Concur.

757 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:37:02pm

re: #748 Spare O'Lake

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

758 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:37:03pm

re: #743 avanti

It's simple, some folks feel torture is necessarily to protect the republic, others think torture is a threat to what the republic stands for, and the two sides will never agree. That's my only comment on that subject.

Well, I think the issue also stands in for a whole host of issues that divided right and left during the last 8 years on the war, etc.
One reason (among many) why I haven't often talked about it here.

And that's my last comment on it too, unless Charles ever does a related post on it sometime (Though to be honest, I have avoided those threads in the past for exactly this reason-- I know I'm going to get angry and it isn't really an issue where people's minds can be changed, or at least not in the environment of a blog debate anyway)

759 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:37:27pm

re: #755 Charles

One more note: as unpleasant and angry as some of the exchanges have been in this thread, I'd much rather have this going on -- a heated discussion on issues that really matter -- than the delusional ranting and hateful raging that takes place in every thread at Hot Air.

This isn't supposed to be a green light to start fighting again. I just need to say that.

And I thank you again for providing us with a forum where such a discussion is possible.

760 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:38:10pm

re: #756 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur.

And I Quite Concur with your Quite Concur.

re: #750 Canadian Guy

Mark iceweasel down as another person who doesn't get it. Who else?

That's uncalled for.

761 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:39:47pm

re: #759 Dark_Falcon

And I thank you again for providing us with a forum where such a discussion is possible.

Agreed, and may I propose to all sides that we focus on debate, issues and reason and avoid invective as a general rule of order?

762 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:40:34pm

re: #761 Bagua

Agreed, and may I propose to all sides that we focus on debate, issues and reason and avoid invective as a general rule of order?

I second the motion. All in favor, say aye.

763 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:41:32pm

re: #761 Bagua

that's cool...however one person's reasoned argument is another person's invective.

Perhaps we need a word to describe a thread that has gone off the tracks?

Invected?

Okay...I'll leave quietly.

764 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:41:44pm

re: #762 Dark_Falcon

Aye!

765 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:41:58pm

re: #758 iceweasel

Well, I think the issue also stands in for a whole host of issues that divided right and left during the last 8 years on the war, etc.
One reason (among many) why I haven't often talked about it here.

And that's my last comment on it too, unless Charles ever does a related post on it sometime (Though to be honest, I have avoided those threads in the past for exactly this reason-- I know I'm going to get angry and it isn't really an issue where people's minds can be changed, or at least not in the environment of a blog debate anyway)

Ice - I think you're correct, this issue stands in for a whole host of issues that divided the right and the left.

And I would like to see a calm (or as calm as possible) discussion of this, with as much patience and courtesy on each side as possible.

Since I registered at LGF, there have been any number of things discussed here that have helped me clarify my thoughts on some important issues.

These sorts of discussions do not occur on other sites in the way they happen here (thank you Charles). I hope this one comes back up again.

766 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:42:53pm

re: #763 PT Barnum

that's cool...however one person's reasoned argument is another person's invective.

Perhaps we need a word to describe a thread that has gone off the tracks?

Invected?

Okay...I'll leave quietly.

I define invective as "insult or abuse." A reasoned argument to the contrary is not invective.

767 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:42:55pm

re: #762 Dark_Falcon

Pirate on Wheel of Fortune "I'd like to buy an eye."

Aye

768 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:43:28pm

re: #748 Spare O'Lake

I asked whether the homicides were connected with interrogations and this is the best you can do? Okay, then I must conclude that there is no evidence that they were, and thus your use of these homicide statistics in a debate about interrogation techniques was bogus.
So who is obfuscating?

Spare, I suggest, once again, that you read the recently declassified report that the CIA itself did in 2004, and take a look at the descriptions under 'cause of death' for those deaths classified as 'homocides' in the DOD autopsy reports that I also linked. I can bring you the info, I can give you the links, but I can't do the reading for you.

769 avanti  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:43:36pm

re: #762 Dark_Falcon

I second the motion. All in favor, say aye.

As the great leader, BHO says: "Disagree without being disagreeable." BTW, I think he takes a bit to much stock in that quote at times. :)

770 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:43:36pm

re: #767 PT Barnum

Pirate on Wheel of Fortune "I'd like to buy an eye."

Aye

Argh, matey, argh.

/

771 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:43:43pm

re: #707 albusteve

the CIA is a very poor source for information

What's a source you would accept?

772 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:44:04pm

re: #766 Bagua

Depends on how it's made now doesn't it?

I don't disagree with your point, merely that when people become emotional about topics like this, sometimes the difference is hard to see.

773 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:45:27pm

re: #762 Dark_Falcon

I second the motion. All in favor, say aye.

Aye!

774 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:45:43pm

re: #768 iceweasel

Spare, I suggest, once again, that you read the recently declassified report that the CIA itself did in 2004, and take a look at the descriptions under 'cause of death' for those deaths classified as 'homocides' in the DOD autopsy reports that I also linked. I can bring you the info, I can give you the links, but I can't do the reading for you.

"I can 'splain it to you, but I can't understand it for you"

Quoting a co-worker of mine after spending an hour on the phone with an employee who refused to hear anything my co-worker was trying to say.

775 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:46:09pm

re: #766 Bagua

I define invective as "insult or abuse." A reasoned argument to the contrary is not invective.

Thus saying "You are wrong" and then explaining why someone is wrong is OK. But responding by saying "You're a lapdog for [fill-in-the-blank]" is out of line. No one here has said that latter thing, it simply was my chosen example.

776 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:46:15pm

re: #770 Gus 802

I am fearsome pirate
I fill men's hearts with fear
My head's price? Two dollars.
I am a buccaneer.

Limericks written by request.

A New York Episcopal deanery
had lunch at a fine Boston beanery
The food made the vicars
blast gas out their knickers
which decimated the scenery

777 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:47:55pm

re: #772 PT Barnum

Depends on how it's made now doesn't it?

I don't disagree with your point, merely that when people become emotional about topics like this, sometimes the difference is hard to see.

I don't want to give any examples that might call out some-one on this thread. I think we are all intelligent enough to distinguish a gratuitous personal insult from a reasoned argument.

778 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:48:13pm

Havin A Time

Youtube Video
779 Splatt  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:48:35pm

What's funny is that this thread has gone so off topic, you guys aren't even aware that the thread on Hot Air under the Impeach Obama thread has gone completely off topic, as well - their comments are now directly intended for you guys (kilgore, et al.)

Killgore since you are trolling over here let me be the first to tell you that you are an unemployed loser who could not score in a Hong Kong whorehouse.

Hilts on October 17, 2009 at 10:39 PM

And there's many more like them. Funny stuff.

780 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:48:45pm

re: #698 Canadian Guy

Plenty of people on the left pretty much said America had it coming. Some were just a little more nuanced about it than others. You're definitely wrong if you think the way you think. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU GUYS HAVEN'T READ THIS STUFF.

Okay, so I get dinged down for stating the fact that a lot of lefties said America had 9/11 coming? Wow, great.

781 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:49:40pm

I feel a flounce coming on ... from me!!!

///

782 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:49:53pm

re: #779 Splatt

What's funny is that this thread has gone so off topic, you guys aren't even aware that the thread on Hot Air under the Impeach Obama thread has gone completely off topic, as well - their comments are now directly intended for you guys (kilgore, et al.)

Killgore since you are trolling over here let me be the first to tell you that you are an unemployed loser who could not score in a Hong Kong whorehouse.

Hilts on October 17, 2009 at 10:39 PM

And there's many more like them. Funny stuff.

They're having imaginary conversations with the enemies in their minds.

783 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:50:02pm

re: #777 Bagua

Nor do I...

Although I do like bat-shit crazy, though when dealing with Hot Air et al, it is more of a descriptive term.

/

784 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:50:42pm

re: #780 Canadian Guy

Okay, so I get dinged down for stating the fact that a lot of lefties said America had 9/11 coming? Wow, great.

Chill, a downding is no big thing and that discussion is over.

785 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:51:30pm

re: #780 Canadian Guy

Okay, so I get dinged down for stating the fact that a lot of lefties said America had 9/11 coming? Wow, great.

And then Jerry Falwell blamed it on me and the ACLU. Forgive me if I don't want to hear this crap again.

786 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:51:37pm

Whether one does not support enhanced interrogations techniques (or as some say torture) needn't be a litmus test or assumption that one is for or against "the cause" or "the war." For example, one can be against said interrogation techniques but still support Gitmo. There are many variables to this question.

787 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:52:25pm

re: #784 Bagua

Chill, a downding is no big thing and that discussion is over.

True. Sorry. I should not have answered.

788 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:53:15pm

re: #779 Splatt

Killgore since you are trolling over here let me be the first to tell you that you are an unemployed loser who could not score in a Hong Kong whorehouse.


I've been here watching Donnie Dumphie videos. Whoever they're talking to it's not me.

789 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:53:27pm
790 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:54:16pm

I have been to Hong Kong and I could score in their whore houses.

791 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:55:04pm

Looks like we're approaching the flouncing hour.

792 carefulnow  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:55:21pm

Ai.

793 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:55:26pm

re: #790 Killgore Trout

I have been to Hong Kong and I could score in their whore houses.

Gosh, Killgore - I'm so happy for you.

794 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:55:29pm

re 789..

Cool! I got to see a flounce, live and in person.

795 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:55:39pm

And now we can all unite behind something. Everbody mock the flouncing troll at #789. Thanks troll, we may disagree on some things, but we all dislike flouncers.

796 cliffster  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:56:35pm

A good flounce should have a few grammatical errors.

797 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:56:37pm

Good night sarge.
1958 called. They want their hypocrisy back.

798 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:56:49pm

re: #702 iceweasel

If you believe that 'plenty' or most or all of the left believed that America deserved 9-11, you need to go fuck yourself.

Yes plenty. I didn't say most. And what's with the insults in here tonight. I'm getting called an idiot and told to go fuck myself. What is this DU?

799 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:56:49pm

Engine room, more power to the aft shields and initialise the Flounce-o-Meter!

800 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:57:49pm

re: #793 reine.de.tout

I've also eaten Peking Duck at The Spring Deer.
/It's very delicious

801 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:58:03pm

re: #798 Canadian Guy

[...]

Drop it, it is over and done with.

802 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:58:17pm

re: #705 Sharmuta

Thank you, Sharmuta.

803 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:59:39pm

re: #765 reine.de.tout

Ice - I think you're correct, this issue stands in for a whole host of issues that divided the right and the left.

And I would like to see a calm (or as calm as possible) discussion of this, with as much patience and courtesy on each side as possible.

Since I registered at LGF, there have been any number of things discussed here that have helped me clarify my thoughts on some important issues.

These sorts of discussions do not occur on other sites in the way they happen here (thank you Charles). I hope this one comes back up again.

There probably won't be much reasoned discussion on this issue, i fear, because it stands in for so many other issues about the Bush admin and people's positions on that.

It may come up again this week, because of this ruling by the British High Court.
PDF of the 38 page decision

The upshot is that there were 25 lines edited out of the original court papers that contained details of how someone's genitals were sliced with a scalpel by the CIA, and other torture methods so extreme that waterboarding "is very far down the list of things they did," the official said. Now those paragraphs will be disclosed.

Background here
UK government suppressed evidence on Binyam Mohamed torture because MI6 helped his interrogators

BTW, this isn't about a 'bash Bush' thing. The Obama admin has been fighting tooth and nail to keep this from being disclosed. The British High Court basically said piss off. Neither Bush nor Obama are going to come out of this looking good.

804 Mich-again  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:59:46pm

A story from the war in Iraq is good perspective when debating torture.

Initially, the US military reported that Zarqawi was killed directly in the attack. However, according to a statement made the following day by Major General William Caldwell of the U.S. Army, Zarqawi survived for a short time after the bombing, and after being placed on a stretcher, attempted to move and was restrained, after which he died from his injuries. An Iraqi man, who claims to have arrived on the scene a few moments after the attack, said he saw U.S. troops beating up the badly-wounded but still alive Zarqawi. In contradiction, Caldwell asserted that when U.S. troops found Zarqawi barely alive they tried to provide him with medical help, rejecting the allegations that he was beaten based on an autopsy performed. The account of the Iraqi witness has not been verified. All others in the house died immediately in the blasts. On June 12, 2006, it was reported that an autopsy performed by the U.S. military revealed that the cause of death to Zarqawi was a blast injury to the lungs, but he took nearly an hour to die.

I thought it was odd how it was OK to try to kill him by dropping a bomb on his head, but once that didn't work soldiers were expected to put him on a stretcher instead of just shooting him in the head to finish him off.

805 wee fury  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:00:09pm

re: #795 Dark_Falcon

And now we can all unite behind something. Everbody mock the flouncing troll at #789. Thanks troll, we may disagree on some things, but we all dislike flouncers.

Big Group Hug!

Youtube Video
806 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:00:58pm

re: #802 Canadian Guy

Thank you, Sharmuta.

No problem. It's the truth. I was in a coffee shop waiting for the bus to head to work. Got my coffee, and with about 6 other people, watched the first tower collapse. All I could say was "oh my God" over and over. Someone to the right of me said, "someone's going to pay for this" and the girl behind the counter said, "we had this coming".

I never went to that coffee shop again.

807 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:01:09pm

re: #768 iceweasel

Spare, I suggest, once again, that you read the recently declassified report that the CIA itself did in 2004, and take a look at the descriptions under 'cause of death' for those deaths classified as 'homocides' in the DOD autopsy reports that I also linked. I can bring you the info, I can give you the links, but I can't do the reading for you.

I did read the examples you posted - they are silent on the question of whether the deaths occurred in connection with interrogation of terrorists.
Unfortunately, I am currently unable to link to your linked sources due to temporary technical limitations at my end.
So are you telling me that the deaths were, or were not, related to interrogation of terrorists, or are you not sure?

808 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:01:16pm

There once was a troll from Hot Air
Who flounced with emotional flare
Old Sarge cried with feeling
I'm off to Darjeeling
Too bad not a single one cared

Not my best, but it's after midnight.

809 swamprat  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:01:41pm

re: #797 swamprat

re: #789 TROLL

Good night sarge.
1958 called. They want their hypocrisy back.


better

810 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:02:00pm

Nighty nite. I'm going to watch an episode of B5 on Hulu before sleep.

811 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:02:33pm

Interesting thing about people who post a nasty "goodbye cruel world" comment -- when I check the logs I see them come back and try to log into their account again and again. I've seen people try their accounts several times a day for weeks, after ranting off in a huff.

In the immortal words of Michael Steele, "What Up?"

812 Mr. Crankypants  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:03:29pm

Okay...the wife is giving me that special look, the one that says
"Come to bed, I want to put my ice cold feet on your butt to warm them up."

Good god, I know the secret to levitation...

All the women I have ever slumbered with (and I do mean that literally) have feel like butterball turkeys.

Gnite all.

813 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:04:11pm

re: #774 reine.de.tout

Not quite, Reine, see my #807.

814 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:04:29pm

re: #807 Spare O'Lake

I did read the examples you posted - they are silent on the question of whether the deaths occurred in connection with interrogation of terrorists.
Unfortunately, I am currently unable to link to your linked sources due to temporary technical limitations at my end.
So are you telling me that the deaths were, or were not, related to interrogation of terrorists, or are you not sure?

Actually, Spare, it's the US that isn't sure they were terrorists. Because they were murdered in US custody before that could be found out.

And I doubt that you've read the 168 page CIA report I linked already, let alone the DOD autopsy reports.

815 Mich-again  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:05:08pm

re: #812 PT Barnum

All the women I have ever slumbered with (and I do mean that literally) have feel like butterball turkeys.

Now thats just weird.

816 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:05:25pm

re: #811 Charles


In the immortal words of Michael Steele, "What Up?"

Not their meds, clearly.

817 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:05:37pm

re: #811 Charles

Interesting thing about people who post a nasty "goodbye cruel world" comment -- when I check the logs I see them come back and try to log into their account again and again. I've seen people try their accounts several times a day for weeks, after ranting off in a huff.

In the immortal words of Michael Steele, "What Up?"

Classic stalker personality. It's like a man that "finally" divorces his wife only to come back daily to stalk her.

818 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:05:42pm

re: #811 Charles

They're desperately hoping you've changed your mind?

819 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:06:32pm

re: #814 iceweasel

Actually, Spare, it's the US that isn't sure they were terrorists. Because they were murdered in US custody before that could be found out.

And I doubt that you've read the 168 page CIA report I linked already, let alone the DOD autopsy reports.

Let's drop it.

820 Mich-again  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:08:06pm

Yankees win!

821 wee fury  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:08:22pm

Yankees win.

822 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:09:07pm

re: #819 Bagua

Let's drop it.

Shame you forgot to post that here.

But yes, let's.

823 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:09:14pm

re: #698 Canadian Guy

Plenty of people on the left pretty much said America had it coming. Some were just a little more nuanced about it than others. You're definitely wrong if you think the way you think. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU GUYS HAVEN'T READ THIS STUFF.

The direct quote from me, not ice, was how haven't you guys read about this stuff? I forget that not everyone shares my same news sources. I just meant it that i thought it was a big story, not that anyone was ignorant for not having read it.

Sorry i didnt mean to call anybody out.

824 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:09:49pm

Looked at Hot Air again. A lot of people made a big deal about them Moving LGF to the "Left Channels" on their blogroll. RS McCain is on the "Right Channels" so I'm more than happy to be on the opposite side on that.

825 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:10:08pm

re: #801 Bagua

Drop it, it is over and done with.


I was way up thread, about 200 comments behind. I was reading all the links and whatnot.

826 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:10:14pm

re: #804 Mich-again

A story from the war in Iraq is good perspective when debating torture.


I thought it was odd how it was OK to try to kill him by dropping a bomb on his head, but once that didn't work soldiers were expected to put him on a stretcher instead of just shooting him in the head to finish him off.

War by rules is inherently bizarre. But as crazy as those rules can be, they're better than no rules at all.

IIRC, al-Zarkawi's sixteen-year-old wife was in the building when they bombed. Somehow I don't think they were high school sweethearts. War sucks a whole hell of a lot.

827 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:10:35pm

re: #814 iceweasel

Actually, Spare, it's the US that isn't sure they were terrorists. Because they were murdered in US custody before that could be found out.

And I doubt that you've read the 168 page CIA report I linked already, let alone the DOD autopsy reports.

Iceweasel, I told you I couldn't link.
I assume you have read the reports and I asked you a simple question -were the deaths related to interrogations?
I will accept your answer for the purpose of this debate, but if you continue to refuse to answer what should be a simple question then I can only draw one conclusion.

828 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:12:19pm

re: #806 Sharmuta

No problem. It's the truth. I was in a coffee shop waiting for the bus to head to work. Got my coffee, and with about 6 other people, watched the first tower collapse. All I could say was "oh my God" over and over. Someone to the right of me said, "someone's going to pay for this" and the girl behind the counter said, "we had this coming".

I never went to that coffee shop again.

My business partner said the same thing. Two years later he was in a mental asylum for 9 months. True story.

829 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:13:36pm

Hello, Lizards!

Looks like a nicely heated discussion, tonight!
Isn't it a blessing that Charles moderates LGF and we can have honest, open, heated discussions like this!

Thank you, Charles, for this forum!

830 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:13:54pm

re: #822 iceweasel

Shame you forgot to post that here.

But yes, let's.

Ice, I cited your post and not his because you made an inflamatory accusation of "murder" in US custody. spare O'Lake merely asked a question.

831 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:14:37pm

re: #826 SanFranciscoZionist

War by rules is inherently bizarre. But as crazy as those rules can be, they're better than no rules at all.

IIRC, al-Zarkawi's sixteen-year-old wife was in the building when they bombed. Somehow I don't think they were high school sweethearts. War sucks a whole hell of a lot.

"War is cruelty, you cannot refine it." -William Tecumseh Sherman

You can disagree with his methods, but Sherman was correct about the nature of war. Targeted killings with missiles and bombs do frequently kill civilians, though the US and Israel do their best to minimize such deaths. However, those deaths are offset by the numbers of people not killed because the terrorists have been eliminated.

832 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:14:39pm

re: #806 Sharmuta

No problem. It's the truth. I was in a coffee shop waiting for the bus to head to work. Got my coffee, and with about 6 other people, watched the first tower collapse. All I could say was "oh my God" over and over. Someone to the right of me said, "someone's going to pay for this" and the girl behind the counter said, "we had this coming".

I never went to that coffee shop again.

One guy I know says that as the first tower fell, one of his coworkers announced 'We had this coming because we send money to the Jews'.

It's probably her fault that he tried to join the Marines the next day.

833 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:16:29pm

re: #827 Spare O'Lake

Iceweasel, I told you I couldn't link.
I assume you have read the reports and I asked you a simple question -were the deaths related to interrogations?
I will accept your answer for the purpose of this debate, but if you continue to refuse to answer what should be a simple question then I can only draw one conclusion.

I didn't realise that in saying you couldn't link, you meant you couldn't follow a link. Sorry.

I've answered you repeatedly. And it's rather odd to decide that this would give you an excuse not to read, or not to do your own research, in any case.

My final answer is that I'm going to respect Charles' wishes and not discuss this further in this thread. And PS, once again: read the links when you can.

834 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:17:38pm

re: #830 Bagua

Ice, I cited your post and not his because you made an inflamatory accusation of "murder" in US custody. spare O'Lake merely asked a question.

I'm quoting the DOD autopsy reports, which list homicides in US custody.

It's a fact, not inflammatory rhetoric.

835 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:18:41pm

re: #830 Bagua

Ice, I cited your post and not his because you made an inflamatory accusation of "murder" in US custody. spare O'Lake merely asked a question.

It's not an 'accusation', either: it is the official finding of the DOD's own autopsy reports.

836 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:19:28pm

re: #834 iceweasel

I'm quoting the DOD autopsy reports, which list homicides in US custody.

It's a fact, not inflammatory rhetoric.

Homicides are not the same as murders. Your words were loaded for effect.

837 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:21:57pm

re: #836 Bagua

Homicides are not the same as murders. Your words were loaded for effect.

Oh please. Take it up with Merriam Webster and the DOD.
Or you could read the DOD autopsy reports.

838 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:22:13pm

re: #835 iceweasel

re: #836 Bagua

Both of you drop it! We're not going back there!

839 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:23:12pm

re: #837 iceweasel

Oh please. Take it up with Merriam Webster and the DOD.
Or you could read the DOD autopsy reports.

My point being the discussion was over, moderated, dropped. Thus we shouldn't add any heated rhetoric on either side to try to score a closing point.

840 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:23:17pm

re: #833 iceweasel

I didn't realise that in saying you couldn't link, you meant you couldn't follow a link. Sorry.

I've answered you repeatedly. And it's rather odd to decide that this would give you an excuse not to read, or not to do your own research, in any case.

My final answer is that I'm going to respect Charles' wishes and not discuss this further in this thread. And PS, once again: read the links when you can.

LOL.
OK iceweasel, no further questions.

841 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:24:02pm

re: #840 Spare O'Lake

LOL.
OK iceweasel, no further questions.

I'll be more than delighted to continue the discussion when you're up to speed on it.

842 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:25:27pm

re: #836 Bagua

Homicides are not the same as murders. Your words were loaded for effect.

Seriously - this is the basis for accusing ice of being inflammatory? That's just not going to work.

843 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:26:00pm

So, how about those Leafs?

844 njdhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:26:44pm

I'm back.

Has anyone posted this yet?

Holocaust survivors will confront BNP on Question Time

Views are polarised. While supporters of the decision say that it is the price Britain pays for free speech, and that the BBC has a duty to reflect a broad range of opinion, opponents have condemned the Corporation for offering the party an opportunity to promote its anti-immigrant views.

Now The Sunday Telegraph can reveal:

* Holocaust survivors and victims of racist attacks plan to confront the BNP's leader Nick Griffin during the programme over his past as a holocaust denier with a conviction for inciting racial hatred.
* Church leaders have expressed their regret that the BNP has been given the opportunity to air its "offensive" views
* Even the broadcasting regulator has questioned the BBC's justification for inviting the party onto Question Time.

Git yer popcorn.

845 njdhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:27:43pm

re: #843 Spare O'Lake

So, how about those Leafs?

How bout them Devils!

846 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:27:53pm

re: #842 Jimmah

Seriously - this is the basis for accusing ice of being inflammatory? That's just not going to work.

jimmah, we were all done with the issue. To then use the phrase "murdered in US custody" as though they were arrested in Orlando was, in my humble opinion, inflammatory at that point in time as the issue was closed. It reopens the matter when everyone had agreed to drop it, thus my little comment.

847 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:28:17pm

In the interest of changing the subject, I offer the following. It's a very good review of Sam Tanenhaus's The Death of Conservatism:

Conservatism Turned Upside Down by Mark Riebling

848 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:28:19pm

Damn. I always miss the good flame wars.

849 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:29:02pm

re: #843 Spare O'Lake

So, how about those Leafs?

re: #845 njdhockeyfan

How bout them Devils!

Both of them will be crushed by the Chicago Blackhawks.

850 Canadian Guy  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:30:57pm

re: #843 Spare O'Lake

So, how about those Leafs?

Let's not reignite the heated embers of this thread.

851 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:31:07pm

Anyone have any good links on malignant narcissism? Thanks.

852 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:31:38pm

Sorry about your luck Rush..You will never own any part of a professional team.
The Hoopster is giving 5 stars to the best Basketball movie of all Time..
No it isn't Hoosiers.. That is top 5.. No.. It isn't White men can't jump..
I have walked behind someone and said..You had better make this shot cause I will bury your ass at 22 feet..
Nope..The best basketball movie of all time is Coach Carter...Rent it.. Samuel L. Jackson at his best...The best basketball movie of all time.Watch it.. You'll be glad you did...Someday you'll be at a party and somebody will bring it this topic up and you can go 'Coach Carter' Everybody will shake their head yes and you will be the coolest guy at the bar...
You'll thank me later.. Coach Carter...Best ball movie of all time

853 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:34:08pm

re: #851 Sharmuta

Anyone have any good links on malignant narcissism? Thanks.

Links to examples of it, sure...but I don't like to link to the shrieking harpy. :(

854 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:34:38pm

re: #846 Bagua

jimmah, we were all done with the issue. To then use the phrase "murdered in US custody" as though they were arrested in Orlando was, in my humble opinion, inflammatory at that point in time as the issue was closed. It reopens the matter when everyone had agreed to drop it, thus my little comment.

So far it seems only you found it to be 'inflammatory'. It's probably not possible to say something on topics like this that won't inflame someone, sometime. But I see no reason whatsoever to suppose that iceweasel's intention was to inflame.

855 njdhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:34:40pm

re: #849 Dark_Falcon

Both of them will be crushed by the Chicago Blackhawks.

We will see on Dec 31.

;)

856 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:34:51pm

re: #850 Canadian Guy

Let's not reignite the heated embers of this thread.

Sell the bums to Rush...it would be a win-win.

857 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:35:12pm

Rehearsal footage of Palin doing reading from her new book:

Youtube Video
858 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:35:38pm

It's late enough, I will venture...

Hiya Hoopster!
Hope all is well with you!
60ish days to Singapore...
I am SO jealous!
You promise to tell the fun stuff?
I KNOW you'll have a good time!
{{HH}}

859 avanti  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:37:22pm

re: #848 Conservative Moonbat

Damn. I always miss the good flame wars.

"Good flame wars" is a oxymoron.

860 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:37:37pm

re: #851 Sharmuta

Anyone have any good links on malignant narcissism? Thanks.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

861 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:37:51pm

re: #854 Jimmah

How many posts are you going to make in counter to my simple: "Let's drop it."?

You've downdinged and made your point, I get it. Let it go.

862 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:38:39pm

re: #855 njdhockeyfan

We will see on Dec 31.

;)

Yes, we will. The Hawks had a great season last year, even if they ended up not being able to get past the Red Wings in the NHL West Finals. Hopefully, this is the year they make it to the Stanley Cup Finals and win it! Go Hawks, this year is Next Year!

863 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:39:56pm

re: #830 Bagua

Ice, I cited your post and not his because you made an inflamatory accusation of "murder" in US custody. spare O'Lake merely asked a question.

That's actually the words that Major General Donald J. Ryder, US Army, used in his senate testimony. It can be seen in the Bates Report available in either a PDF or HTML version.

Other DOD links here and MIL links here.

864 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:40:14pm

re: #858 Floral Giraffe

It's late enough, I will venture...

Hiya Hoopster!
Hope all is well with you!
60ish days to Singapore...
I am SO jealous!
You promise to tell the fun stuff?
I KNOW you'll have a good time!
{{HH}}

(Flora beauty}
60 days till Asia.. I'm thrilled..Lot's of pics I'll link a web site.
I am so jacked..Asia...Damn

865 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:41:20pm

re: #853 iceweasel

I'd like a few essays online. Maybe a book recommendation or two. You're always good with that sort of thing, so can you help a sister out?

866 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:41:47pm

re: #855 njdhockeyfan

We will see on Dec 31.

;)

Big New Years Eve bash?

867 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:42:13pm

re: #864 HoosierHoops


Going to be interviewing soon for a job in Japan myself. Have never set for in Asia, so this would be quite an eye opener.

868 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:42:16pm

re: #865 Sharmuta

I'd like a few essays online. Maybe a book recommendation or two. You're always good with that sort of thing, so can you help a sister out?

Naturally. And for you? Always! I'll email you.

869 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:43:02pm

re: #864 HoosierHoops

(Flora beauty}
60 days till Asia.. I'm thrilled..Lot's of pics I'll link a web site.
I am so jacked..Asia...Damn

How long will you be there?

870 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:43:13pm

re: #864 HoosierHoops

You'll have a blast. My memories of the area are fond ones. Despite the Hitch Hiker's guide advice; Fuck the towel, always carry toilet paper.

871 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:44:14pm

re: #863 Gus 802

That's actually the words that Major General Donald J. Ryder, US Army, used in his senate testimony. It can be seen in the Bates Report available in either a PDF or HTML version.

Other DOD links here and MIL links here.

BTW, the very first page of the DOD autopsy reports I linked mentions at least 3 of the 'homicides' as occurring during interrogation.

872 njdhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:44:15pm

re: #866 Spare O'Lake

Big New Years Eve bash?

Why not? Beer, food, and watching Martin Brodeur shut out the Blackhawks makes for a perfect New Years Eve.

873 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:45:04pm

re: #851 Sharmuta

If I can get your email addy I can send you some er, liberated, ebooks on the subject. I've got about three gigs of psychology ebooks I've gotten off various torrent sites.

874 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:45:35pm

re: #864 HoosierHoops

You have to try Durian. You simply have to. You'll never forgive yourself if you don't.

875 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:46:32pm

re: #872 njdhockeyfan

Why not? Beer, food, and watching Martin Brodeur shut out the Blackhawks makes for a perfect New Years Eve.

Dream on, Jersey Boy. We'll hand your guys their heads, count on it.

(what's cheering on your team without a little trash talk?)

876 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:47:26pm

re: #863 Gus 802

So what? "Drop it" means the topic is finished because it became too emotional. To keep sniping away with distortions such as homicide is identical to murder just is just trying to score a few Parthian shots.

877 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:47:59pm

re: #871 iceweasel

BTW, the very first page of the DOD autopsy reports I linked mentions at least 3 of the 'homicides' as occurring during interrogation.

I came across that in the Bates report. It's not uncommon for service members to be prosecuted for acts such as this and military legal departments typically pursue prosecution.

878 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:48:05pm

re: #874 Killgore Trout


It's a love it, or hate it fruit, to be sure.
Just DO NOT try to sneak it into your hotel.
DO NOT!
The smell will give you away & you will be chased & beaten by the neighbors...

879 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:48:49pm

re: #876 Bagua

So what? "Drop it" means the topic is finished because it became too emotional. To keep sniping away with distortions such as homicide is identical to murder just is just trying to score a few Parthian shots.

I was under the understanding that it was acceptable as long as it was done in a respectful manner which is what I am doing.

880 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:49:37pm

re: #872 njdhockeyfan

I was well into the NHL back in the early 90s before spending much of the last 15 years overseas...and Brodeur is one of a small handful of players still active from those days. Had to look him up: 37 years old.

881 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:50:22pm

ANGRY BOB CONQUERS THE DURIAN FRUIT

Youtube Video
882 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:50:26pm

re: #879 Gus 802

I was under the understanding that it was acceptable as long as it was done in a respectful manner which is what I am doing.

You missed that the thread had broken down into a bit of nastiness and Charles had asked that we restore decorum. We all agreed to change the subject.

883 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:51:13pm

re: #876 Bagua

So what? "Drop it" means the topic is finished because it became too emotional. To keep sniping away with distortions such as homicide is identical to murder just is just trying to score a few Parthian shots.

You're the one sniping away now at others to 'drop it'. Interestingly, you appear to be exhorting people to 'drop it' who weren't even involved in the original discussion, and who are providing information that debunks points you wanted to claim as true.

Gus just proved it wasn't a distortion, and provided some helpful info that wasn't provided earlier by anyone. And he was extremely polite. Why the interest in shutting him down?

884 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:51:25pm

re: #879 Gus 802

Also, I don't mean you scoring the Parthian shots.

885 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:51:36pm

re: #878 Floral Giraffe

They don't allow it in hotels. Even if you have one in a cab they make you hold it out the window for the duration of the ride.

886 njdhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:52:17pm

re: #880 bratwurst

I was well into the NHL back in the early 90s before spending much of the last 15 years overseas...and Brodeur is one of a small handful of players still active from those days. Had to look him up: 37 years old.

He's broken just about all of Patrick Roy's records. He may end up being the greatest goalie of all time when he retires. He scored a shut out tonight. I think that might be the next record to fall...shutouts.

887 NervyNews  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:52:19pm

Is it "safe" to say water-boarding is the diet coke of tortures? /facetiousness off

888 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:53:14pm

re: #869 Dark_Falcon

How long will you be there?

We are opening up an office in Singapore..About 2 weeks to get them set up..
I am so going to a soccer game downtown in my 2004 world cup orange Dutch uniform.. I'm eating noodles and taking pictures..That's how I roll...
Do you guys want to see me in orange in Singapore? I'll do a website..
I'll tske a picture of every dish.. The only time in my life I will ever eat Real Chinese food...
Room service:
Hello?
Bring me some Moo Goo Gia now!
Sir: It is 3:30 am
Bring me the MOO GOO GAI now!
ok sir...
Damn ugly American visitors..
Bring me the MOO GAI!
/This is going to be fun.

889 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:53:15pm

re: #883 iceweasel

Ice, I was being dinged and challenged by jimmah. I am not trying to shut gus down, rather you and jimmah who seem to wish to pursue your agenda here.

890 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:53:58pm

re: #887 GNIDAthe#seCond

Don't go there. Your armor can't repel the firepower iceweasel will direct against you!

/Stay on Target!

891 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:55:21pm

re: #874 Killgore Trout

You have to try Durian. You simply have to. You'll never forgive yourself if you don't.

Bookmarked! Thanks!

892 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:55:27pm

re: #888 HoosierHoops

Very cool. Make sure to keep us updated. I'll check the overnight thread for your posts (time differential and all).

893 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:56:39pm

Bagua

How many posts are you going to make in counter to my simple: "Let's drop it."?

You've downdinged and made your point, I get it. Let it go.

Huh? I thought were discussing your claim that iceweasels language was inflammatory. Now you are trying to paint it like I am opposing your wish to drop the matter and keeping the diuscussion going against your expressed wish. I'm perfectly happy to drop it if that's what you want, Bagua.

I did just find it odd that you think you can unilaterally declare iceweasels statement to be inflammatory, while no one is allowed to find that accusation inflammatory in itself. Here's the deal then - no more posts on the subject - agreed?

894 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:58:05pm

re: #893 Jimmah

I find it strange that you are dogging me on a thread in which peace had broken out.

895 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:59:11pm

re: #889 Bagua

Ice, I was being dinged and challenged by jimmah. I am not trying to shut gus down, rather you and jimmah who seem to wish to pursue your agenda here.

I dinged you once IIRC, Bagua. and I have given my reasons for that. Aren't you the one who was telling someone up thread that a downding was no big deal, and to chill out?

896 njdhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:59:31pm

re: #874 Killgore Trout

You have to try Durian. You simply have to. You'll never forgive yourself if you don't.

Describing the odor:

While Wallace cautions that "the smell of the ripe fruit is certainly at first disagreeable", later descriptions by westerners are more graphic. British novelist Anthony Burgess writes that eating durian is "like eating sweet raspberry blancmange in the lavatory."[21] Chef Andrew Zimmern compares the taste to "completely rotten, mushy onions."[22] Anthony Bourdain, while a lover of durian, relates his encounter with the fruit as thus: "Its taste can only be described as...indescribable, something you will either love or despise. ...Your breath will smell as if you'd been French-kissing your dead grandmother."[23]

Travel and food writer Richard Sterling says:

“ ... its odor is best described as pig-shit, turpentine and onions, garnished with a gym sock. It can be smelled from yards away. Despite its great local popularity, the raw fruit is forbidden from some establishments such as hotels, subways and airports, including public transportation in Southeast Asia.[24]

Other comparisons have been made with the civet, sewage, stale vomit, skunk spray and used surgical swabs.[25] The wide range of descriptions for the odour of durian may have a great deal to do with the variability of durian odour itself.

Nasty.

897 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 10:59:52pm

re: #893 Jimmah

I'm going to go to bed now. I'm tired and not feeling well. I'll be back in the morning. In the meantime, please keep it civil folks. Bagua, Jimmah, Gus, Ice: I like all of you and I need you folks to stay here with me at LGF. Please don't let me come back when I wake up to find a flame war. Goodnight and God Bless.

898 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:00:30pm

re: #895 Jimmah

I dinged you once IIRC, Bagua. and I have given my reasons for that. Aren't you the one who was telling someone up thread that a downding was no big deal, and to chill out?

Exactly, so why the inquisition now that it is all over?

899 njdhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:01:45pm

re: #894 Bagua

I find it strange that you are dogging me on a thread in which peace had broken out.

What happened while I was gone? Did I miss a spat?

900 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:01:56pm

re: #894 Bagua

I find it strange that you are dogging me on a thread in which peace had broken out.

I'm not dogging you - honestly. As far as I was concerned we were having a debate concerning thwe validity of your claim that iceweasel was being inflammatory. I don't think you were doing too well in it but there you go. Sometimes that happens. And comments can prompt downdings as well as updings.

901 NervyNews  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:03:05pm

re: #890 Dark_Falcon

I copy, Gold Leader! ; )

902 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:03:07pm

Come As You Are - Nirvana

903 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:03:09pm

re: #899 njdhockeyfan

What happened while I was gone? Did I miss a spat?

Apparently I did too.

904 wee fury  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:03:09pm

Off to read a book about Egypt. Am curious about the mummification process.

905 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:04:31pm

re: #891 HoosierHoops

Be WARNED, HOWEVER. Locals can smell it MILES off.
Still, if you can, you should try it.
Don't breathe on the locals, however...

906 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:04:45pm

re: #900 Jimmah

Then let it go, you come in at the end of a heated thread and start taking sides and making a big deal out of three little words "let it go."

907 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:05:34pm

re: #898 Bagua

Exactly, so why the inquisition now that it is all over?

You accused iceweasel of being inflammatory. I disagreed, giving reasons. That's an inquisition?

908 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:07:13pm

re: #907 Jimmah

You accused iceweasel of being inflammatory. I disagreed, giving reasons. That's an inquisition?

"accused?" Are you a trial lawyer by chance? I think Iceweasel can defend herself without your help.

909 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:08:40pm
910 Digital Display  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:08:54pm

re: #892 Dark_Falcon

Very cool. Make sure to keep us updated. I'll check the overnight thread for your posts (time differential and all).

I'll let every one know..I'll be there in around 60 days..Downtown Singapore.. I figure my first line at the bar will be Hi.. Tom Cruise was supposed to meet me here..Have you seen him tonight?'
Why not? *wink*
We really need good lines here...
1. Has anybody seen my agent? Jerry? Jerry McGuire?
2. Obama is late again
3. Just because Sandra Bullick is showing up doesn't mean we are dating
4. I know for a fact Amy Winehouse doesn't do drugs..She'll be back in a minute... What's your name?

911 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:09:03pm

re: #906 Bagua

Then let it go, you come in at the end of a heated thread and start taking sides and making a big deal out of three little words "let it go."

Seriously bagua - you are really doing yourself no favours at the moment. I've been participating actively in this thread since post no 24. At no point did I make any kind of a deal out of the words "let it go".

912 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:10:12pm

re: #911 Jimmah

Seriously bagua - you are really doing yourself no favours at the moment. I've been participating actively in this thread since post no 24. At no point did I make any kind of a deal out of the words "let it go".

So what's your point? Why are you beating this to death?

913 njdhockeyfan  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:11:54pm

re: #907 Jimmah

You accused iceweasel of being inflammatory. I disagreed, giving reasons. That's an inquisition?

Nobody expects an inquisition! Especially a Spanish one.

Youtube Video
914 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:12:19pm

STOP. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP. BOTH OF YOU.

915 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:13:00pm

Blah, blah, blah.
Good night.

916 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:13:02pm

re: #908 Bagua

"accused?" Are you a trial lawyer by chance? I think Iceweasel can defend herself without your help.

Well, the point here is that you were telling her she was to stop defending herself. You told her to shut up just because you happened to be offended by something she said, something many other people were not offended by?

That once again is the point I was trying to get across to you. I was not dogging you or subjecting you to an inquisition.

917 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:14:08pm

re: #913 njdhockeyfan

Nobody expects an inquisition! Especially a Spanish one.


[Video]

This may be the dingquisition - even more unexpected!

918 mikeymom  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:14:48pm

well charles, you're kids are in need of a time out. be a good daddy and smack them down.

919 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:15:29pm

re: #916 Jimmah

Well, the point here is that you were telling her she was to stop defending herself. You told her to shut up just because you happened to be offended by something she said, something many other people were not offended by?

That once again is the point I was trying to get across to you. I was not dogging you or subjecting you to an inquisition.

OK, fine, can we move on?

920 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:15:30pm

re: #897 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to go to bed now. I'm tired and not feeling well. I'll be back in the morning. In the meantime, please keep it civil folks. Bagua, Jimmah, Gus, Ice: I like all of you and I need you folks to stay here with me at LGF. Please don't let me come back when I wake up to find a flame war. Goodnight and God Bless.

Feel better, DF! {df}

921 mikeymom  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:16:18pm

sorry--your. maybe a diaper change is needed. bye!

922 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:16:23pm

re: #914 SanFranciscoZionist
Yo! SFV!
Welcome.
I'm sorry, but I must go Sleepy times now.
Please, stay on this.
But...
NOT to the point of getting banned.
MMMK?
{SFV}

923 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:16:42pm

Sorry but I find it odd that people can't have a rational discussion without flipping out. Then having to curtail ones ability to freely discuss matters without irritating peoples nerves. Odd too since I've seen the discussion bounced back and forth when dealing with abortion issues. Seems to me like we're stifling debate to avoid damaging the sensitivities of others.

Oh well. Any minute now the topic will be how great the "Illegal Alien" costume being sold by Target is. /

924 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:16:52pm

re: #909 Floral Giraffe

Whack!
Whack!
Smack!
You know who you are, and why you deserve a beating.
Enjoy it, or be in pain from it.

Can't it be both?

925 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:17:54pm

re: #924 iceweasel

Can't it be both?

Bad, Iceweasel, bad...:P

926 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:18:17pm

re: #919 Bagua

OK, fine, can we move on?

NO! THIS IS SPARTA!!! ;-)

Yes :)

927 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:18:55pm

Hot Air

Youtube Video
928 The Left  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:19:17pm

re: #925 Varek Raith

Bad, Iceweasel, bad...:P

Just trying to be a uniter, not a divider! For the change of pace. hee.

929 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:19:58pm

re: #922 Floral Giraffe

Yo! SFV!
Welcome.
I'm sorry, but I must go Sleepy times now.
Please, stay on this.
But...
NOT to the point of getting banned.
MMMK?
{SFV}

Love ya. I'm cool. Playing Scrabble with the computer.

930 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:22:45pm

re: #929 SanFranciscoZionist

Flounce in The Offender thread.

931 Aye Pod  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:27:17pm

re: #927 Gus 802

Hot Air


The tuk ur jerbs. :)

932 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:27:47pm

re: #930 Bagua

Flounce in The Offender thread.

OK. Is it related to my Scrabble game? Should I go look at it?

933 Gus  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:27:53pm

re: #931 Jimmah

The tuk ur jerbs. :)

Dey tuk er jubs!

/

934 Bagua  Sat, Oct 17, 2009 11:29:17pm

re: #932 SanFranciscoZionist

OK. Is it related to my Scrabble game? Should I go look at it?

It's in the "I don't like you anymore daddy" category.

935 HC4BO  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:03:39am

This has to be my personal best ...:

We know which Ed Morischmuck would choose.

Barack Obama IS an ENEMY OF THE STATE CURRENTLY IN THE PROCESS OF OVERTHROWING OUR CONSTITUTIONALLY BASED FEDERAL REPUBLIC.

TREASON, and the OVERTHROW OF THE GOVERNMENT AS FOUNDED are plenty enough justification for not only impeachment, conviction, and removal from office; but also for being charged, tried, convicted, and HUNG as a traitor to the Union.

Notice he/she actually spelled the name of the president in CAPS ...

I thought lower casings were the norm ( over there ) ...

936 The Curmudgeon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:59:28am

re: #192 b_sharp

Remind me, how long have you been doing it? 50 years?

I'm following you bud. ;->

Aaarrrggghhh!!!

937 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:10:20am
938 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:12:28am

re: #937 littleugly

I don't think that is really what Iceweasel said. What is claimed is that certain individuals did these things.

939 littleugly  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:19:56am

re: #938 freetoken

#544, the last sentence, plain and simple

940 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:24:17am

re: #939 littleugly


Yes, IW is stating that some people were indeed killed by torture.

941 littleugly  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:27:54am

re: #940 freetoken

Not, she/he is saying they were restrained and beaten to death.

942 littleugly  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:37:24am

So I go back to #544 posted by Iceweasel
and I see that we also strangled , strangled people, the US Army.

943 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:37:51am

re: #941 littleugly

The context of the discussion though is the use of torture, and IW brought in those examples. Elsewhere on the thread she posted a link to the report source.

The argument, as I understand it, is that if torture is allowed as a valid means of gathering information then the result (that one can expect in a war) is exactly what IW reported - captives beaten to death.

944 littleugly  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:56:03am

re: #943 freetoken

I do not beat around the bush much, our troops, our sons and daughters do not do what this person accused them of.

945 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 5:01:36am

re: #944 littleugly

The link IW gave was to this report:
[Link: action.aclu.org...]

which supposedly is information lifted directly from documents obtained via the FOIA, on autopsies performed by the DoD.

Make of it what you will... I didn't participate in this discussion, but I think it is important to know that IW wasn't just making this stuff up.

946 peterb  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 6:33:41am

re: #427 Bagua

You care that these psychos who blew up buildings full of civilians were "scathed?"

The point of not torturing people is not (just) because of what it does to the people who would be tortured. We don't torture because of what it does to us.

Americans shouldn't torture. Evil governments torture. Good governments don't. Whether or not the victims are innocent little puppies or really evil monsters doesn't enter into that calculation.

947 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 6:35:47am
948 Mr. Crankypants  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 6:48:33am

re: #924 iceweasel

Although I once knew a couple where she was a sadist and he was a masochist.

He'd say "Hurt Me!"
She'd say "No!"

949 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:14:40am
950 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:20:02am
951 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:36:07am

If I were to try to mock all the bad grammar and misused words in those screeds, my head would explode.

This is what you get when inbred rednecks go to community colleges: people who bastardize my native tongue by throwing out Latin tags like sine qua none without the least idea what they mean.

952 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:07:01am

re: #937 littleugly

Iceweasel is quoting official autopsy reports. If you think they are fake (they are not) then attack her sources. I have no idea what your point is, here.
Are you saying no American ever murdered someone?
The thing I really don't get is this: it seems like it is important to you that America as a nation is not responsible for things like that. Well, the proper way to accomplish that is not shooting the messenger, but carefully ascertaining what the facts are, whether in fact people who were or are in charge did things that were wrong, and then holding them accountable, in accordance with the law. Or, democratically changing the law.
That is the only way to absolve the collective.
I can see how someone might say security is more important than liberty and the rule of law, or why someone who doesn't care might not have seen the evidence that things like this happened.
But people like you who say accusations like this are unacceptable, yet at the same time don't carefully use all avaiable sources with constant fact checking and an open mind, I really don't get that. It's like you're saying, you don't care if it happens, but no one may say it aloud.

953 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:08:47am

re: #952 suchislife

It's like you're saying, you don't care if it happens, but no one may say it aloud.

and that's actually a little ugly.

954 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:09:52am

re: #951 Cato the Elder

If I were to try to mock all the bad grammar and misused words in those screeds, my head would explode.

This is what you get when inbred rednecks go to community colleges: people who bastardize my native tongue by throwing out Latin tags like sine qua none without the least idea what they mean.

Well, we have to try to educate the rednecks. Some of them might make something of themselves if taught properly.

955 littleugly  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:10:31am

re: #945 freetoken

Where in the multiple instances of death does it say that our soldiers caused these fatalities.

I reiterate, iceweasel said

""'That's just the first few. People beaten to death, one while restrained. Trust me, there are a lot more"""

"Trust me there is a lot more"

We are Americans, a country united, we have earned every little bit of ground that makes us Americans.

You can try as hard as you can to make it not be so and divide us.

Good Luck.

956 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:12:30am

re: #955 littleugly

who do you think beat up prisoners who were in American custody? these are reports from autopsies on American prisoners. Are you saying someone beamed in there and did it?

957 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:15:24am

re: #955 littleugly

and you seem to suggest that the only way to show allegiance to America and to preserve its unity is to never question anything an American or the government or the armee does. so how do you feel about Obama's loyal opposition at the tea parties?

958 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:17:57am

re: #955 littleugly

re: #956 suchislife

Guys. please drop it. This argument will only get ugly if you get on it. Just drop it and join us on the next thread.

959 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:22:35am
960 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:22:57am
961 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:23:33am

re: #958 Dark_Falcon

well. what if little ugly keeps smearing iceweasel? I can't down ding yet. Also, I believe that the true value of this forum lies in the fact that two sides that haven't so much as shaken hands for years actually have an opportunity to convince and understand each other, and that only using this opportunity to (justly) bashing idiots (which needs to be done, and I'm grateful) is selling this blog short. But, I know you're echoing Charles, so ok.

962 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:26:52am

re: #960 littleugly

You just wasted a lot of words.
Scream, rant, say it out loud, wear a che or fidel t-shirt, you and I can do it with no problem.

well, this part doesn't make sense to me. stop the stereotyping.

"we can be better yet." Does that fill you with hope and determination?

963 littleugly  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:31:20am

out

964 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:31:38am

re: #960 littleugly

wear a che or fidel t-shirt

ok, last comment. it´s like you think there are only two sides, with us (or, US, apparently) or against us.

965 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 8:47:29am

re: #947 damianpenny

On that post you're quoting Charles says
"The comments quoted by CAIR were posted at LGF for less than two hours before CAIR sent out their press release, and were deleted as soon as the administrator (that would be me) became aware of them."

Are you suggesting that the people at Hot Air similarily do their best to keep such comments of their website?

re: #950 Michael MacConnell

this is part of an ongoing series! are you saying Charles (or Simoon or Kilgore) should email them every time they highlight another drop in this endless stream? the very people who are trashing him constantly for critizing them?

966 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 9:15:35am
967 littleugly  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 9:26:43am

re: #961 suchislife

I am not smearing anybody, your words not mine, fact is that we are the most, not most but the only nation that adheres to any civil conduct when it comes to enemy combatants within or without, period.
Now if you want to denigrade or in effect inpune our men and women in service, feel free to agree that they are ;

Beating people to death while restraiined and even more, more?

968 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 9:28:06am
969 Kronocide  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 9:33:40am

re: #966 Grendel-999

You're pathetic. That's not meant to be an insult, I truly have empathy for how deeply pathetic that was.

970 Kronocide  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 9:35:41am

re: #968 damianpenny

In any event, as he noted in his 2006 post, it isn't always easy to keep track of a comment section on a popular blog. Johnson himself used this argument for years. What changed?

Charles has changed. He spends great effort in deleting trash posts. It's factual and practical to say you can't police every post.

At least Charles tries. That's a hell of a lot more than most other bloggers.

971 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 9:36:20am

Karma: -6

damianpenny

Web site URL:
[Link: www.damianpenny.com...]

Dartmouth, NS

(Logged in)
Registered since: Sep 23, 2008 at 11:42 am
No. of comments posted: 2
No. of links posted: 0

Registers more than a year ago and now pops up to make two hostile comments. I smell socks...

972 philosophus invidius  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 9:45:45am

re: #966 Grendel-999

Hi Charles, here is an open hate mail.

Malkin obviously must be a horrible racist worthy of the playboy "who would [...]" and "bag of meat" comments because she does not review every comment.

Thanks.

What the hell does that mean?

973 Kronocide  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 9:48:45am

re: #972 philosophus invidius

What the hell does that mean?

"Look at me, I'm ANGRY! GRRR!"

That's what it means.

974 sarabande  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 9:56:00am

Thanks to Simoom and Killgore Trout for having the fortitude to expose this stuff. Amazing how the wild nastiness of Bush Derangement Syndrome of the left is now replicated with the equally loony Obama Derangement Syndrome of the right.

975 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:06:28am

Note to all those who are (were) ranting and raving that I'm a hypocrite because I previously defended LGF against people who smeared us due to some comments posted here, especially that thread about CAIR: the comments that caused CAIR to attack were deleted as soon as I became aware of them.

That's the difference -- extreme comments have always been deleted at LGF, if I am aware of them.

At Hot Air, on the other hand, Ed Morrissey and Allahpundit are BOTH aware of comments posted at their blog falsely accusing me of being a pedophile, and have not deleted those comments. Nor have they blocked the people who posted those comments.

Also at Hot Air, an outright white supremacist is being allowed to post entries in their Green Room section -- Robert Stacy McCain.

I completely reject these attempts to equate LGF with the cesspool that Hot Air has become. They know what's going on in their comments, and they encourage it.

976 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:29:10am

re: #967 littleugly

fact is that we are the most, not most but the only nation that adheres to any civil conduct when it comes to enemy combatants within or without, period.

If you would like to actually learn how different nations treat enemy combatants, I would suggest starting with these easy to read wikipedia pages:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

and once you know the basics, you could move on to:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: www.adh-geneva.ch...]

Now if you want to denigrade or in effect inpune our men and women in service, feel free to agree that they are ;

Beating people to death while restraiined and even more, more?

See, the question is not "Would we prefer to think that some of our many, many men and women in service did these things?", but "Did some of our many many men men and women in service do these things?" That is a factual question, yet you treat it like a test of faith. When evidence presents itself that some did, then asking this question is a service to the troops. As are the follow up questions: if so, was this behaviour encouraged or punished? What can we do to avoid it in the future?
And I always feel free to agree with the facts, even when they don't agree with me.

977 littleugly  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:00:59pm

suchislife,

Our Men and Women in the Armed Forces are heroes, nobody can take that away from them, they come from differing backgrounds and have their faults but woa on anybody that denigrates them.
You have to be there in the line of fire to appreciate the devotion and selflessness that exists.
For Iceweasel to bunch all our fine men and women into a report is just plain wrong.

I notice Iceweasel is non- re pendent and in fact trying to defend the statement.
Here it is again, speaking about our troops subjectively;

""That's just the first few. People beaten to death, one while restrained. Trust me, there are a lot more"".

You just do not know what we have done and take it for granted but let me tell you it is to be admired. We do not ask for much, we do not advertise, once we are out we are invisible, just do not call me a murderer please.

978 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:23:32pm

re: #977 littleugly

littleugly:
that's quite a chip on your shoulder.

979 Bagua  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:44:42pm

re: #977 littleugly

As one of those who was debating with Iceweasel upthread, I'd like to go on record as saying your joining the thread now to attack her is unwarranted, unfair and also incorrect as you are clearly uninformed.

980 dean_acheson  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 10:39:34am

Has it really come to this?


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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
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