Mississippi Catholic Bishops, Religious Leaders Denounce Personhood Bill

Too far
Politics • Views: 32,699

Interesting development in the right wing war on women’s rights: there are actually some religious groups beginning to get uncomfortable with the implications of the crazy far right agenda they’ve been supporting. Notably, the Mississippi Catholic Bishops: Religious Leaders Denounce Personhood Anti-Abortion Bill.

This Tuesday, Mississippians will vote on Initiative 26, a “personhood” amendment to the state constitution that defines a person as “every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning, or the functional equivalent thereof.” This “profoundly ambiguous” amendment will deliberately trample on a woman’s reproductive health and privacy, essentially criminalizing abortion, outlawing contraception like the birth control pill, and even preventing couples from having a child through in vitro fertilization.

It is these consequences that leave even the most staunch anti-choice activists cold. The National Right to Life organization has refused to promote it. Even the Catholic Bishops have refused to endorse the amendment, noting that the bill is so extreme, it could jeopardize their more serious efforts to overturn Roe v. Wade:

In the letter [Jackson Bishop Joseph Latino] called Personhood Mississippi “a noble initiative.” However, he said, “I join with Catholic bishops in several other states in not endorsing personhood petitions to be circulated in our Catholic parishes. We have committed ourselves to working for a federal amendment and feel the push for a state amendment could ultimately harm our efforts to overturn Roe v. Wade.”

Numerous religious leaders, who joined Bishop Latino at a press conference to speak out against the bill, were more forthright in their denunciations. “It is a blunt instrument which, if passed, will harm Mississippi women and their families both physically and spiritually,” said Rabbi Debra Kassoff. “Because God has sanctified not only fetal life, but all life, we urge Mississippians to vote against Initiative 26.”

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742 comments
1 Kragar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:24:07pm

Pff, what do they know about God's will?

2 jaunte  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:24:40pm

The first link (religious groups) isn't working for me.

3 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:25:09pm

About frikken time somebody woke up.

Now, if they can stop diddling kids...

4 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:25:47pm

So, my clone is a person? Good. Fucker owes me $20.
//

5 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:26:35pm

I have a gut feeling they're objecting because this bill tactically harms them, not on principle.

6 Kragar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:26:52pm

re: #4 Cannadian Club Akbar

So, my clone is a person? Good. Fucker owes me $20.
//

If you have sex with your clone, does it count as gay or masturbation?

7 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:27:38pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Gay.

8 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:27:39pm

re: #2 jaunte

The first link (religious groups) isn't working for me.

Fixed.

9 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:28:13pm

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

I have a gut feeling they're objecting because this bill tactically harms them, not on principle.

Pretty much what the article reads like. Their opposition pretty much reads as "This will hurt our agenda in the long run."

10 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:28:25pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If you have sex with your clone, does it count as gay or masturbation?

I honestly wouldn't have sex with my clone. I've seen me.
//

11 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:28:41pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If you have sex with your clone, does it count as gay or masturbation?

Doesn't matter, it's still just a Good Time.

12 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:29:35pm

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

I have a gut feeling they're objecting because this bill tactically harms them, not on principle.

Yep. In a way, it's because it reveals the lack of logic underpinning their own positions. This is extreme, but it is the natural progression of the logic of any anti-choice position.

13 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:30:32pm

Speaking of clones, whatever happened to that group that had the ship? The french lady did all the talking. I knew they were nutballs but I'm just wondering.

14 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:30:40pm

re: #12 Obdicut

A bit like "mainstream" YECs are always ready to expose those wacky flat-earthers and geocentrists.

15 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:32:00pm

re: #13 Cannadian Club Akbar

Speaking of clones, whatever happened to that group that had the ship? The french lady did all the talking. I knew they were nutballs but I'm just wondering.

The Raelians were never able to provide evidence they successfully cloned anything.

16 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:32:38pm

re: #12 Obdicut

Yep. In a way, it's because it reveals the lack of logic underpinning their own positions. This is extreme, but it is the natural progression of the logic of any anti-choice position.

Basically the bill jumps too far ahead of what voters will accept, as even those fence-sitters who oppose abortion would be hesitation to likewise ban birth control pills (which have medical uses other than just preventing pregnancy) and invitro fertilization.

17 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:34:17pm

re: #15 b_sharp

The Raelians were never able to provide evidence they successfully cloned anything.

Thank you. Couldn't remember their names. Fucking Kooks.

18 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:35:11pm

re: #17 Cannadian Club Akbar

Thank you. Couldn't remember their names. Fucking Kooks.

The world is infested with kooks.

19 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:38:40pm

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

I have a gut feeling they're objecting because this bill tactically harms them, not on principle.

Not entirely. For Catholic groups this bill really does run counter to church teachings, which have long held that personhood begins with movement (though some have argued first heartbeat). The Catholic Church has never held a fertilized egg to be a person.

20 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:39:12pm

FWIW, I am pro life, but would never support overturning Roe v Wade. But cloning is not good. And there is someone out there with a God complex who will do it when given the chance.

21 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:42:34pm

re: #20 Cannadian Club Akbar

FWIW, I am pro life, but would never support overturning Roe v Wade. But cloning is not good. And there is someone out there with a God complex who will do it when given the chance.

Why is cloning bad?

22 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:42:36pm

re: #16 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It would also, really, if technically adopted, mean that they'd have to do a billion other things, like figuring out what their real death rate was. If every fertilization is a human being, and about 40% of fertilized eggs either fail to implant or spontaneously abort, then there is an enormous death rate to be accounted for there. And if it's a person, then I guess it's a child, and the laws applying to child abuse fit. If it's not, then a whole new slate of laws have to be crafted to care for it. If it's not legal to abort, then surely it's not legal to endanger it's life with drinking, smoking, exercise, etc.

23 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:42:58pm

Heh, but at least one GOP mover and shaker seems to like it:

Barbour expresses support for Mississippi personhood amendment

[...]

In a statement released Friday, Mr. Barbour said he plans to support the amendment. [...]

He does express some concern about the wording, and opponents are using a recording of his voice to try and get people to vote against it (to which he is objecting, as detailed in this story), but Barbour still evidently supports the amendment.

24 Ming  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:43:03pm

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

I have a gut feeling they're objecting because this bill tactically harms them, not on principle.

One possible reason for their objection is the possible effect of the bill on in vitro fertilization. In the mid-1990's, I knew a Mormon couple whom I would describe as very conservative. I'm quite confident that they were, and are, in favor of criminalizing abortion. I was surprised when they spent $9500 on in-vitro fertilization. Of course I didn't say anything about the 3 or 4 "excess" embryos which are "discarded" for each in-vittro fertilization attempt, but it would have been interesting to hear their reaction. This made me think that some on the religious right, while opposed to abortion and contaception, do NOT want the government involved in the decision of well-off families to try in-vitro fertilization.

25 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:43:28pm

re: #21 b_sharp

Why is cloning bad?

Unintended Consequences.

26 jaunte  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:43:37pm

This would be a very confusing law.

First, what does “fertilization” mean? As embryologists recognize, fertilization is a process, a continuum, rather than a fixed point. The term “fertilization” — which is sometimes considered synonymous with “conception” — could mean at least four different things: penetration of the egg by a sperm, assembly of the new embryonic genome, successful activation of that genome, and implantation of the embryo in the uterus. The first occurs immediately; the last occurs approximately two weeks after insemination (or, in the case of embryos created through in vitro fertilization that do not get implanted, never). Thus, on some reasonable readings of the amendment, certain forms of birth control, stem cell derivation and the destruction of embryos created through in vitro fertilization would seem impermissible, while on other equally reasonable readings they are not. [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

27 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:44:40pm

re: #22 Obdicut

It would also, really, if technically adopted, mean that they'd have to do a billion other things, like figuring out what their real death rate was. If every fertilization is a human being, and about 40% of fertilized eggs either fail to implant or spontaneously abort, then there is an enormous death rate to be accounted for there. And if it's a person, then I guess it's a child, and the laws applying to child abuse fit. If it's not, then a whole new slate of laws have to be crafted to care for it. If it's not legal to abort, then surely it's not legal to endanger it's life with drinking, smoking, exercise, etc.

Quite Concur. This ballot initiative would make a hash out of the law. And Haley Barbour knows that, but he's afraid of being called "pro abortion" if he opposes it.

28 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:44:50pm

re: #21 b_sharp

Why is cloning bad?

And I mean people, not cells, etc.

29 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:45:13pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

Not entirely. For Catholic groups this bill really does run counter to church teachings, which have long held that personhood begins with movement (though some have argued first heartbeat). The Catholic Church has never held a fertilized egg to be a person.

They've always been anti-abortion even at that stage, though-- an inconsistency on their part.

30 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:45:21pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

Not entirely. For Catholic groups this bill really does run counter to church teachings, which have long held that personhood begins with movement (though some have argued first heartbeat). The Catholic Church has never held a fertilized egg to be a person.

Is this another one of your wholly unsupported raw assertions?

The same is shown in James 2:26, which tells us that "the body without the spirit is dead": The soul is the life-principle of the human body. Since from the time of conception the child’s body is alive (as shown by the fact it is growing), the child’s body must already have its spirit.

Thus, in 1995 Pope John Paul II declared that the Church’s teaching on abortion "is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being.

31 jaunte  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:45:59pm

JeffreyFeldman tweets:

Miss. Gov. sez fertilized eggs are people, but will he support marriage btwn zygotes & corporations?

32 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:47:32pm

re: #25 Cannadian Club Akbar

Unintended Consequences.

The same can be said of any birth, can't it?
The biggest problem I see is the length of life is shortened, which would not be fair to the clone.
There can be political crap if clones are not given the same rights as everyone else, but, if approached rationally, that shouldn't happen.

33 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:47:45pm

re: #30 goddamnedfrank

Oh, you're right, but Dark is just thinking of an older version of Catholic teaching, about 'the quickening'.

34 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:47:56pm

re: #28 Cannadian Club Akbar

And I mean people, not cells, etc.

So do I.

35 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:47:59pm

re: #31 jaunte

JeffreyFeldman tweets:

As long as they're not the same sex. A marriage between a male corporation and female zygote is holy.

36 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:48:21pm

re: #30 goddamnedfrank

Is this another one of your wholly unsupported raw assertions?

No, it was based on my religion classes back in high school. Perhaps I was mistaught.

37 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:48:31pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

Not entirely. For Catholic groups this bill really does run counter to church teachings, which have long held that personhood begins with movement (though some have argued first heartbeat). The Catholic Church has never held a fertilized egg to be a person.

That is incorrect in regard to the modern church teaching, which is adamant that life (=personhood) begins at conception. That, however, was not always a Church consensus. There were various opinions before the XIXth century. The Catechism of the Council of Trent, for example, assumes that personhood begins some time after the conception.

38 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:48:51pm

re: #32 b_sharp

The same can be said of any birth, can't it?
The biggest problem I see is the length of life is shortened, which would not be fair to the clone.
There can be political crap if clones are not given the same rights as everyone else, but, if approached rationally, that shouldn't happen.

I don't see a clone as a birth.

39 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:49:20pm

re: #35 HappyWarrior

As long as they're not the same sex. A marriage between a male corporation and female zygote is holy.

Thank God all corporations are male.

40 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:49:32pm

re: #33 Obdicut

Oh, you're right, but Dark is just thinking of an older version of Catholic teaching, about 'the quickening'.

Thanks. I had made an error.

41 jaunte  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:49:44pm

re: #35 HappyWarrior

I wonder if the zygote will be entitled to independent legal representation.

42 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:49:48pm

re: #21 b_sharp

Why is cloning bad?

We could end up with two of you

Or worse ,, two of ME!!!

/

43 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:50:24pm

re: #33 Obdicut

Oh, you're right, but Dark is just thinking of an older version of Catholic teaching, about 'the quickening'.

Gotcha, where the sperm fight it out Highlander style because there can be only one.

44 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:51:12pm

re: #37 Sergey Romanov

Source:

But what surpasses the order of nature and human comprehension is, that, as soon as the Blessed Virgin assented to the announcement of the angel in these words, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word," the most sacred body of Christ was immediately formed, and to it was united a rational soul; and thus, in the same instant of time, he was perfect God and perfect man. That this was the astonishing and admirable work of the Holy Ghost can not be doubted; for according to the order of nature, nobody, unless after a certain period of time, can be animated with a human soul.

[Link: www.archive.org...]

45 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:51:59pm

re: #36 Dark_Falcon

No, it was based on my religion classes back in high school. Perhaps I was mistaught.

You were taught an older Catholic belief that hasn't been true since 1869.

[Link: www.religioustolerance.org...]

The official Catholic church position is still that any procedure that directly kills the fetus is forbidden, even if it would save the life of the mother.

46 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:52:10pm

re: #41 jaunte

I wonder if the zygote will be entitled to independent legal representation.

These guys will take the case!!

/

47 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:52:20pm

Yeah I remember the Catholics I knew growing up arguing that abortion was wrong because life began at conception in their eyes.

48 Mocking Jay  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:53:24pm

re: #46 sattv4u2

These guys will take the case!!

/

[Video]

Better call Saul!

49 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:55:10pm
50 jamesfirecat  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:55:25pm

Proof that you're thinking about things too hard...


When you wonder, if Nathan Ford from Leverage was a Warhammer 40K Heretic, would be more likely to worship Nurgle because of his drinking, and son stricken by an illness, or Tzeentch, because he's all about plans within plans and plans that only would work if his original plan failed...

51 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:55:34pm

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

I have a gut feeling they're objecting because this bill tactically harms them, not on principle.

Yeah, it's like Pat Robertson telling the GOP to tone it down a little, electoral taquito.

52 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:55:45pm

re: #38 Cannadian Club Akbar

I don't see a clone as a birth.

OK, let's be a little more specific - the creation of a viable new human life.

A clone isn't a fertilization in the normal sense, but it is a birth. Just to be clearer, at this point, cloning of other mammals requires the same gestation in a female's womb as non-clones, the only difference is in the nuclei of the gametes. The result of the existence of the clone will have real world consequences, just as the birth of a non-clone human.

53 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:56:05pm

re: #51 goddamnedfrank

Tactical tequila.

54 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:56:32pm

re: #42 sattv4u2

We could end up with two of you

Or worse ,, two of ME!!!

/

That's why I disagree with conjuring doppelgangers.

55 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:58:31pm

re: #41 jaunte

I wonder if the zygote will be entitled to independent legal representation.

Schiavo.

56 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:59:08pm

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

(and this game BETTER be on a local radio station)

57 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:59:41pm

re: #56 sattv4u2

or else

58 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 6:59:49pm

re: #52 b_sharp

OK, let's be a little more specific - the creation of a viable new human life.

A clone isn't a fertilization in the normal sense, but it is a birth. Just to be clearer, at this point, clones of other mammals requires the same gestation in a female's womb as non-clones, the only difference is in the nuclei of the gametes. The result of the existence of the clone will have real world consequences, just as the birth of a non-clone human.

OK. I get what you're saying. I don't see a reason to clone a person. If you need a heart valve, we can do that.

59 Kragar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:00:03pm

re: #50 jamesfirecat

Proof that you're thinking about things too hard...

When you wonder, if Nathan Ford from Leverage was a Warhammer 40K Heretic, would be more likely to worship Nurgle because of his drinking, and son stricken by an illness, or Tzeentch, because he's all about plans within plans and plans that only would work if his original plan failed...

Thats what Chaos Undivided is for.

60 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:00:26pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

Gotcha, where the sperm fight it out Highlander style because there can be only one.

I just have to post this in response:

61 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:01:06pm

re: #56 sattv4u2

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

(and this game BETTER be on a local radio station)

790 The Zone!!!????

62 jaunte  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:01:11pm

Opinionatedcath Opinionated Catholic tweets:
WRONG!!!!! RT @STBToolBar: Mississippi Catholic Bishops, Denounce Personhood Bill (Little green footballs)

63 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:01:42pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If you have sex with your clone, does it count as gay or masturbation?

re: #7 Sergey Romanov

Gay.

Not if the balls don't touch...

///

64 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:01:53pm

They should, but sometimes tjey have an all night jabber fest about the days Georgia game

65 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:02:22pm

re: #62 jaunte

WIN!!

66 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:03:07pm

Doing a very quick survey of fundamentalist and anti-abortion Facebook pages turns up some interesting stuff - mainly that there is confusion over this amendment. Most of the God-fearing folk seem to be gung-ho for it, but some of the more battle scarred or perhaps just anti-abortion but non-Christians seem to be quite weary of this amendment. Especially the folk who have had IVF or are thinking about it seem concerned.

What a theocratic web of legalism.

67 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:04:00pm

re: #58 Cannadian Club Akbar

OK. I get what you're saying. I don't see a reason to clone a person. If you need a heart valve, we can do that.

I see where you are coming from now, and cloning to provide parts is unthinkable, just like having a second kid to provide a first kid with a kidney is unconscionable.

68 jaunte  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:04:49pm

re: #65 Cannadian Club Akbar

I guess he means 'does not support' does not equal 'denounces.'

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:04:59pm

re: #24 Ming

One possible reason for their objection is the possible effect of the bill on in vitro fertilization. In the mid-1990's, I knew a Mormon couple whom I would describe as very conservative. I'm quite confident that they were, and are, in favor of criminalizing abortion. I was surprised when they spent $9500 on in-vitro fertilization. Of course I didn't say anything about the 3 or 4 "excess" embryos which are "discarded" for each in-vittro fertilization attempt, but it would have been interesting to hear their reaction. This made me think that some on the religious right, while opposed to abortion and contaception, do NOT want the government involved in the decision of well-off families to try in-vitro fertilization.

The Church opposes in-vitro.

70 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:05:22pm

re: #67 b_sharp

I see where you are coming from now, and cloning to provide parts is unthinkable, just like having a second kid to provide a first kid with a kidney is unconscionable.

If the reason you are having a second child is for that reason, yes.

71 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:05:57pm

re: #68 jaunte

I guess he means 'does not support' does not equal 'denounces.'

But, my underwear denounces my balls all the time.

72 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:06:01pm

re: #67 b_sharp

I see where you are coming from now, and cloning to provide parts is unthinkable, just like having a second kid to provide a first kid with a kidney is unconscionable.

What if it was, theoretically, for an army???

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:06:26pm

re: #29 Obdicut

They've always been anti-abortion even at that stage, though-- an inconsistency on their part.

Not really. The Church's model is to be open to conception. So even if the fertilized egg is not a person, they would still hold it wrong to stop it from developing.

74 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:06:28pm

re: #72 Varek Raith

What if it was, theoretically, for an army???

No.

75 jamesfirecat  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:06:45pm

re: #59 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thats what Chaos Undivided is for.

Fair enough.

I'm creating the most Lulz worthy warband I can think of as I read through the Black Crusade players guide and so far we have Perry Cox from Scrubs as a Nurgle worshipper as the group's healer, and
Benvenuti Sfondrati-Piccolomini from The Philosopher Strangler and Forward the Mage, as a worshipper of Slaanesh.

Next we clearly need to pick up Twilight Sparkle as a Tzeentch psyker, and Fiona from Burn Notice as a gun/bomb specialist who worships Khorn.

76 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:06:50pm

re: #74 Cannadian Club Akbar

No.

Too bad/late.
:P

77 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:07:00pm

re: #72 Varek Raith

What if it was, theoretically, for an army???

Robots.

78 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:07:06pm

re: #62 jaunte

Opinionatedcath Opinionated Catholic tweets:
WRONG!!! RT @STBToolBar: Mississippi Catholic Bishops, Denounce Personhood Bill (Little green footballs)

Self-appointed rapid response team springs into action.

79 jaunte  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:07:24pm

RONG!!1!

80 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:08:35pm

re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist

Not really. The Church's model is to be open to conception. So even if the fertilized egg is not a person, they would still hold it wrong to stop it from developing.

I just meant that over time, there have been different interpretations; at no time were they "Yeah, abortion during the first few weeks is A-Ok!", but rather that it was a lesser sin than after 'quickening'.

Sorry to be unclear.

81 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:09:35pm

Lol devil

A prost to the horned one

82 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:13:13pm

re: #81 WindUpBird

Lol devil

A prost to the horned one

Heh. He was busted by my buddy O'Malley.

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:13:19pm

re: #81 WindUpBird

Lol devil

A prost to the horned one

The 182-year-old newspaper withdrew the column from its website on Wednesday, saying it had failed to recognize the "theological error" before publication.

However, AFTER Dignity called, and screamed directly into the receiver...it all became clearer.

84 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:13:53pm

re: #75 jamesfirecat

Fair enough.

I'm creating the most Lulz worthy warband I can think of as I read through the Black Crusade players guide and so far we have Perry Cox from Scrubs as a Nurgle worshipper as the group's healer, and
Benvenuti Sfondrati-Piccolomini from The Philosopher Strangle and Forward the Mage, as a worshipper of Slaanesh.

Next we clearly need to pick up Twilight Sparkle as a Tzeentch psyker, and Fiona from Burn Notice as a gun/bomb specialist who worships Khorn.

You do realize that Kragar is going to send you to the Inquisitors for having said that, right?

Speaking of empires, the 20th Anniversary Edition of Timothy Zahn's first Star Wars novel, Heir to the Empire, is out now. It's still a great read, and the annotations by Zahn and his editor really give you some insight into the creative process behind the book that reignited Star Wars as a franchise. The list price is $30, though with a 205 Barnes & Noble membership discount plus a 30% off coupon I got it for $16.80 ($18.40 after tax).

85 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:15:05pm

re: #75 jamesfirecat

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Nerds.

/hey I just wanted to say it too

86 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:15:32pm

re: #72 Varek Raith

What if it was, theoretically, for an army???

That kind of impinges on their rights as citizens. We breed other mammals for specific jobs all the time, but we view humans as different than all other animals so breeding for a specific purpose removes their humanity. To me, that goes well over the edge, although there may be circumstances where necessity could change my mind. If the human race was in danger of being wiped out by some extraterrestrial threat, and only our best soldiers could change the outcome, cloning a military force might not be a bad idea.

Many ethical questions we consider every day are hazy at some point.

87 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:16:06pm

re: #85 Sergey Romanov

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Nerds.

/hey I just wanted to say it too

I'm betting you hope this turns into a food thread now, huh?
///

88 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:16:32pm

On the vigorously anti-abortion site LifeSiteNews, the article Mississippi personhood amendment has excellent chance of passing, say pro-life leaders has as it's first comment:

Posted by David Murphy on Oct 28, 2011

Mississippi is a role model to every state in America.

I'm trying to let that one sink in for the full effect.

89 Kragar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:16:46pm

re: #62 jaunte

Opinionatedcath Opinionated Catholic tweets:
WRONG!!! RT @STBToolBar: Mississippi Catholic Bishops, Denounce Personhood Bill (Little green footballs)

What part is wrong? The facts speak for themselves.

90 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:16:55pm

re: #86 b_sharp

That kind of impinges on their rights as citizens. We breed other mammals for specific jobs all the time, but we view humans as different than all other animals so breeding for a specific purpose removes their humanity. To me, that goes well over the edge, although there may be circumstances where necessity could change my mind. If the human race was in danger of being wiped out by some extraterrestrial threat, and only our best soldiers could change the outcome, cloning a military force might not be a bad idea.

Many ethical questions we consider every day are hazy at some point.

It was in jest.
;)

91 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:17:00pm
The Church continually reasserts what the Second Vatican Council declared against abortion and against every violation of unborn life: “from the moment of its conception life must be guarded with the greatest care” (ibid., n. 51).

Cultural trends exist that seek to anaesthetize consciences with spurious arguments. With regard to the embryo in the mother's womb, science itself highlights its autonomy, its capacity for interaction with the mother, the coordination of biological processes, the continuity of development, the growing complexity of the organism.

It is not an accumulation of biological material but rather of a new living being, dynamic and marvelously ordered, a new individual of the human species. This is what Jesus was in Mary’s womb; this is what we all were in our mother’s womb. We may say with Tertullian, an ancient Christian writer: “the one who will be a man is one already” (Apologeticum IX, 8), there is no reason not to consider him a person from conception.

-Pope "Legs" Benedict

92 jaunte  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:17:44pm

re: #88 freetoken

I really don't think the supporters have any idea of the unintended consequences this bill might unleash.

93 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:18:00pm

re: #88 freetoken

On the vigorously anti-abortion site LifeSiteNews, the article Mississippi personhood amendment has excellent chance of passing, say pro-life leaders has as it's first comment:

I'm trying to let that one sink in for the full effect.

They don't even lead the SEC.

94 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:18:08pm

re: #88 freetoken

On the vigorously anti-abortion site LifeSiteNews, the article Mississippi personhood amendment has excellent chance of passing, say pro-life leaders has as it's first comment:

I'm trying to let that one sink in for the full effect.

I so sad for my friends.

95 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:18:20pm

re: #88 freetoken

On the vigorously anti-abortion site LifeSiteNews, the article Mississippi personhood amendment has excellent chance of passing, say pro-life leaders has as it's first comment:

I'm trying to let that one sink in for the full effect.

Yeah the state with high poverty rate, low education, etc is a real model.

96 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:18:27pm

re: #88 freetoken

Meridian, Mississippi has the Peavy factory. Back off!! (And Sela Ward is from there)
///

97 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:18:43pm

re: #90 Varek Raith

It was in jest.
;)

Bugger, over exposed again.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:19:06pm

re: #95 HappyWarrior

Yeah the state with high poverty rate, low education, etc is a real model.

Mississippi. Goddamn.

99 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:19:13pm

re: #92 jaunte

Should it pass, can we see how this issue could end up in the USSC?

100 lawhawk  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:20:45pm

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Spent the day trying to get the trees removed from the house - and found out that we did have a tree branch come through the roof. Minor nick, but the pine tree's going to go down like Frazier. It's going to be mulch within 2 weeks - once I get town permission to give it the axe.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Middle Earth, the Occupy Movement has found a new target:

Occupy Mordor: Because One Ring Should Not Rule Them All.

101 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:20:52pm

re: #21 b_sharp

Why is cloning bad?

Would you want to be a clone?

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:21:09pm

re: #99 freetoken

Should it pass, can we see how this issue could end up in the USSC?

Sure, if they can fight that far up the food chain.

It's an impossible law. You can't legislate against human biology.

There are exactly two reasons to pass such a law. The less morally ambiguous one is that you just want purity braggin' rights.

103 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:22:38pm

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

You can't legislate against human biology.

Oh, but they surely can.

There is not guarantee that any human law has to be accord to how the universe really works.

104 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:22:50pm

re: #100 lawhawk

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Spent the day trying to get the trees removed from the house - and found out that we did have a tree branch come through the roof. Minor nick, but the pine tree's going to go down like Frazier. It's going to be mulch within 2 weeks - once I get town permission to give it the axe.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Middle Earth, the Occupy Movement has found a new target:

Occupy Mordor: Because One Ring Should Not Rule Them All.

Time and opportunity to install a sky-light.

105 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:22:56pm

re: #101 ggt

Would you want to be a clone?

A better question would be, would you rather have your brain in the body of a TRex or raptor?

106 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:23:27pm

re: #101 ggt

Would you want to be a clone?

I recall reading a short story many years ago in which a group of clones who run a detective agency (all referred to by the narrator as Me 3, or Me 6), are hired to protect a group of clones who are a clebrity.

There's a scene where they all meet, and the singleton agent is staring as they all shake hands. The narrator thinks that apparently this guy hasn't seen a six-clone greet an eight-clone before.

107 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:23:47pm

re: #101 ggt

Would you want to be a clone?

If I had the same rights and opportunities I have now, and the shortened lifespan had been addressed, it would be no different than being a twin.

108 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:23:47pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

A better question would be, would you rather have your brain in the body of a TRex or raptor?

Weren't TRex's scavengers?

109 lawhawk  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:24:31pm

re: #88 freetoken

Well, it does have a good chance of passing, but that doesn't mean it will become effective because court challenges will push the matter to the S.Ct.

And there's a whole slew of unintended consequences that will flow from this - it has the potential to eliminate ESCR, and the federal government has preempted with its funding of ESCR lines (Supremacy Clause) would come into play as well.

110 dragonath  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:24:33pm

re: #54 b_sharp

I still have bad memories from fighting my doppelganger in the first Mortal Kombat. Scorpion. GET OVER HERE

Come to think of it, I don't think the Catholic church liked that either.

111 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:25:00pm

re: #108 Cannadian Club Akbar

Weren't TRex's scavengers?

Most likely.

112 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:25:33pm

re: #87 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'm betting you hope this turns into a food thread now, huh?
///

This is you.

Image: PBF182-Food_Fight.jpg

113 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:25:36pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

A better question would be, would you rather have your brain in the body of a TRex or raptor?

Raptor, as long as the other raptors had the brains of friends.

Teamwork beats pure size and muscle.

114 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:26:54pm

re: #113 b_sharp

Raptor, as long as the other raptors had the brains of friends.

Teamwork beats pure size and muscle.

Del Carnegie class?
/

115 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:27:06pm

re: #106 SanFranciscoZionist

I recall reading a short story many years ago in which a group of clones who run a detective agency (all referred to by the narrator as Me 3, or Me 6), are hired to protect a group of clones who are a clebrity.

There's a scene where they all meet, and the singleton agent is staring as they all shake hands. The narrator thinks that apparently this guy hasn't seen a six-clone greet an eight-clone before.

Daivid Brin's 'Kiln People' is an interesting read.

116 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:27:17pm

re: #107 b_sharp

If I had the same rights and opportunities I have now, and the shortened lifespan had been addressed, it would be no different than being a twin.

If you had an adopted mother and a father? What if you were born in a laboratory --or to a a paid surrogate and then sent to a facility with other kids like you?

I think it would be very weird to know that at some point I was not "made" the old-fashioned way --egg and sperm. That there were people out there withwhom I shared genetic mateial--sort of.

117 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:27:27pm

re: #107 b_sharp

If I had the same rights and opportunities I have now, and the shortened lifespan had been addressed, it would be no different than being a twin.

You'd be more human than human.

118 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:27:34pm

re: #108 Cannadian Club Akbar

Weren't TRex's scavengers?

So are Bald eagles.

119 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:27:58pm

re: #114 Cannadian Club Akbar

Del Carnegie class?
/

Fire ant mound.

120 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:28:25pm

re: #118 b_sharp

So are Bald eagles.

They hunt as well.

and fish

121 jaunte  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:28:30pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

Mississippi. Goddamn.

Catholic feminist Frances Kissling:

Mississippi is perhaps the last state with any standing to extend personhood to fetuses. A fertilized egg in Mississippi, should it be born, has one of the worst prognoses for a dignified life in the United States. What will that fertilized egg, once it is born, discover about how Mississippi treats persons?

The state ranks last among all states in health and third for the highest rate of diabetes and high blood pressure . It has the lowest per capita personal income and an unemployment rate of 10.6 percent. It is the last in academic achievement. More than 1 out of 5 people live in poverty. The state is second in the nation in terms of the imprisonment ratio (749 prisoners per 100,000 people.) If you are black, your chances of dying at birth or shortly thereafter are pretty high: fourteen out of every 1000 black infants ( 6.8 for whites) born die in childbirth or the first year of their lives. Your mother is more likely to die delivering you than mothers in 44 other states. If fertilized eggs could be afraid, surely the thought of being born in Mississippi would be traumatizing.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

122 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:28:33pm

re: #114 Cannadian Club Akbar

Del Carnegie class?
/

Image: real-life-philosoraptor.jpeg

123 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:28:43pm

re: #119 Decatur Deb

Fire ant mound.

Good name for a band.

124 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:28:51pm

re: #114 Cannadian Club Akbar

Del Carnegie class?
/

Yup. I hated Dale, but loved his clone Del.

125 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:29:59pm

re: #124 b_sharp

Yup. I hated Dale, but loved his clone Del.

Shuddup.:)

126 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:30:17pm

re: #109 lawhawk

Well, it does have a good chance of passing, but that doesn't mean it will become effective because court challenges will push the matter to the S.Ct.

Do you mean the USSC, or the Mississippi supreme court?

According to the proponents of the bill, they've found legal opinion that they say waives off some supposed problems:

Personhood USA Applauds Findings of New Report Detailing Legal Effects of Mississippi Personhood Amendment 26

In a new report titled “Personhood Amendment Will Not Change Legal Safeguards for Physicians Providing Necessary Treatment to Pregnant Patients,” the Mississippi Center for Public Policy analyzes the legal effects of enacting the Mississippi Personhood Amendment, Initiative 26. The analysis can be read at: [Link: www.mspolicy.com....]

“The Mississippi Center for Public Policy has received many questions about the legal implications of Ballot Initiative 26 – The Personhood Amendment. One question that stands out is whether the amendment would subject medical professionals to prosecution for performing life-saving procedures, such as treating a woman for cancer or terminating an ectopic pregnancy,” writes co-author and Policy Analyst George S. Whitten, Jr., Esq.

“Personhood USA is pleased that an independent organization has taken the time to write this assessment and clear up any confusion,” said Personhood USA Legal Analyst Gualberto Garcia Jones, J.D.

[...]

127 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:30:27pm

re: #119 Decatur Deb

Fire ant mound.

Not a bad thing if you're trying to grow cotton. Fire ants eat boll weevils.

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:31:33pm

re: #116 ggt

If you had an adopted mother and a father? What if you were born in a laboratory --or to a a paid surrogate and then sent to a facility with other kids like you?

I think it would be very weird to know that at some point I was not "made" the old-fashioned way --egg and sperm. That there were people out there withwhom I shared genetic mateial--sort of.

Being adopted and being a clone would be about the same as being adopted and not being a clone, I imagine. My concern would be that people would clone people for stupid, potentially damaging reasons. Right now, IIRC, there's some businesses that will clone your cat for you. But you don't get YOUR late cat back, you get a clone. They don't necessarily have the same fur markings. They don't have the same experiences. They do not grow up into the same cat.

Now the cat doesn't give a damn, it's a cat. But a human child, cloned to replace a beloved family member--I can see how a person might screw a kid up pretty good with something like that.

Also, we have a means of reproduction, one that doesn't run the risk of shortened life span, and mixes genes for increased gene pool health while we're at it. What would the point of starting to clone extensively be?

129 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:31:47pm

If you go to see a motivational speaker they should sell two things when you leave: Motivation on CD or a rope. You'll figure it out, eventually. Heh.

130 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:32:37pm

It should be noted that the "Mississippi Center for Public Policy" is itself a far-right think tank/pr machine.

131 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:33:23pm

re: #116 ggt

If you had an adopted mother and a father? What if you were born in a laboratory --or to a a paid surrogate and then sent to a facility with other kids like you?

I think it would be very weird to know that at some point I was not "made" the old-fashioned way --egg and sperm. That there were people out there withwhom I shared genetic mateial--sort of.

Wouldn't bother me, I share genetic material with several brothers and my parents. Twins share identical genomes. If I wasn't treated as a human, then I would have a problem.

Right now gays are treated like crap, but we're on the way to correcting that (I hope). Clones would be a similar situation.

132 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:33:34pm

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

Being adopted and being a clone would be about the same as being adopted and not being a clone, I imagine. My concern would be that people would clone people for stupid, potentially damaging reasons. Right now, IIRC, there's some businesses that will clone your cat for you. But you don't get YOUR late cat back, you get a clone. They don't necessarily have the same fur markings. They don't have the same experiences. They do not grow up into the same cat.

Now the cat doesn't give a damn, it's a cat. But a human child, cloned to replace a beloved family member--I can see how a person might screw a kid up pretty good with something like that.

Also, we have a means of reproduction, one that doesn't run the risk of shortened life span, and mixes genes for increased gene pool health while we're at it. What would the point of starting to clone extensively be?

If there was some great catastrophe and you were really concerned that your genes would not live on --I can see cloning family members to increase family size. But other than that--I don't see any real reason.

Cloning body parts, OTOH, seems like a great idea to me.

133 lawhawk  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:34:00pm

re: #126 freetoken

US Supreme Court; we're talking federal issues here - and this will likely get challenged in federal court.

As written, the proposal would undo many protections for women and could affect legitimate treatment options that would save the life of the woman. I think that will be the basis on which this gets struck down, but it also means that the next batch of personhood initiatives will carve out exceptions and push further into the realm of eliminating choice and the option for abortion, or other procedures that involve embryos (ESCR).

134 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:35:02pm

re: #120 ggt

They hunt as well.

and fish

Being a scavenger isn't a bad thing, unless we impose human ideals on those non-humans.

135 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:35:03pm

re: #126 freetoken

Do you mean the USSC, or the Mississippi supreme court?

According to the proponents of the bill, they've found legal opinion that they say waives off some supposed problems:

Personhood USA Applauds Findings of New Report Detailing Legal Effects of Mississippi Personhood Amendment 26

They think they have something, but I feel certain that SCOTUS will take a dim view of this poorly written law.

136 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:35:30pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Not a bad thing if you're trying to grow cotton. Fire ants eat boll weevils.

We're getting something that kills off fire ants. They're worse.

[Link: thestir.cafemom.com...]

137 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:35:56pm

re: #134 b_sharp

Being a scavenger isn't a bad thing, unless we impose human ideals on those non-humans.

Like humans, they are adaptable and will survive.

Unless they are hunted to whacko extremes.

138 Lidane  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:36:23pm

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

I have a gut feeling they're objecting because this bill tactically harms them, not on principle.

That's all it is. They're pissed about these "personhood" attempts at trampling a woman's right to control her own body because it undermines their own attempts at trampling a woman's right to control her own body.

Personhood bills outlaw both abortion and birth control, two things the Catholic Church is staunchly opposed to. They'd have no problem supporting this bill if it wasn't vague and poorly written.

139 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:38:13pm

re: #138 Lidane

That's all it is. They're pissed about these "personhood" attempts at trampling a woman's right to control her own body because it undermines their own attempts at trampling a woman's right to control her own body.

Personhood bills outlaw both abortion and birth control, two things the Catholic Church is staunchly opposed to. They'd have no problem supporting this bill if it wasn't vague and poorly written.

All because they don't think there are enough white babies in the world?

it's really insane, IMHO.

140 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:38:35pm

re: #132 ggt

If there was some great catastrophe and you were really concerned that your genes would not live on --I can see cloning family members to increase family size. But other than that--I don't see any real reason.

Cloning body parts, OTOH, seems like a great idea to me.

As long as the parts were not from an entire sentient being. Clone my ear on a patch of flesh, cool.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:38:50pm

re: #131 b_sharp

Wouldn't bother me, I share genetic material with several brothers and my parents. Twins share identical genomes. If I wasn't treated as a human, then I would have a problem.

Right now gays are treated like crap, but we're on the way to correcting that (I hope). Clones would be a similar situation.

Except that we're still fighting over what makes you gay. What makes you a clone is, well, people did it.

Of course, if you did several clones of the same person, some of them might turn out gay, and some not. Happens with twins and triplets, probably happen with clones as well.

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:39:38pm

re: #132 ggt

If there was some great catastrophe and you were really concerned that your genes would not live on --I can see cloning family members to increase family size. But other than that--I don't see any real reason.

Cloning body parts, OTOH, seems like a great idea to me.

I suppose--giant calamity, lots of people rendered sterile, somehow we've got the technology, and the means to bring all these little clones to viability...

But it seems like an improbable scenario.

143 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:40:41pm

Would be weird having a clone or even having a twin.

144 Lidane  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:40:47pm

re: #139 ggt

All because they don't think there are enough white babies in the world?

That and they're so primitive and repressed that the only reason for sex at all is procreation. If you're married and aren't actively working to pump out a kid every nine months, you're just an immoral, selfish reprobate who is offending God. Or something.

It's one of the most fucked up things ever. All it does is push people towards sexual guilt and shame.

it's really insane, IMHO.

That's putting it mildly.

145 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:41:27pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

I suppose--giant calamity, lots of people rendered sterile, somehow we've got the technology, and the means to bring all these little clones to viability...

But it seems like an improbable scenario.

I'd like a gamma to help with the yard work.

146 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:42:03pm

re: #143 HappyWarrior

Would be weird having a clone or even having a twin.

Dude. You would double your wardrobe.

147 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:42:41pm

Speaking of twins, and clones, and such, a friend of my mother's has children--twins--a boy and a girl.

She says that when they were babies, people would ask their names, and she would tell them, "This is Andrew, and this is Rebecca," and then people would ask, "Are they identical?"

And she would just LOOK at them.

Sometimes they would realize what the problem with that question was and start laughing. Sometimes not.

148 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:42:50pm

re: #146 Cannadian Club Akbar

Dude. You would double your wardrobe.

Oh, think of the excuse to buy shoes!

149 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:43:22pm

re: #148 ggt

Oh, think of the excuse to buy shoes!

I knew this comment was coming.

150 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:43:27pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

Except that we're still fighting over what makes you gay. What makes you a clone is, well, people did it.

Of course, if you did several clones of the same person, some of them might turn out gay, and some not. Happens with twins and triplets, probably happen with clones as well.

Being gay looks to be influenced by the development process combined with genetics. However, it isn't the genetics or developmental process that needs to be changed, it's the attitude toward the results that needs work.

151 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:45:01pm

Alrighty. This conversation is getting a bit deep for me on a Saturday night. See ya'll on the AM shift.:)

152 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:45:53pm

re: #146 Cannadian Club Akbar

Dude. You would double your wardrobe.

Ha, I guess. It would just be weird since from what I understand about twins is somehow they're able to be on the same thought process. Heck having only brothers, it would be kind of weird having a sister too because I can't imagine what a female version of my parents DNA combo would look like.

153 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:46:07pm

re: #149 Cannadian Club Akbar

I knew this comment was coming.

:)

154 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:46:12pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

I suppose--giant calamity, lots of people rendered sterile, somehow we've got the technology, and the means to bring all these little clones to viability...

But it seems like an improbable scenario.

Have you talked to your local bacterium or virus community lately? They're willing and able to provide those services just for shits and giggles.

155 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:46:36pm

On cloning - one thing to understand is that even if you were to be "cloned", the resulting person would still have differences from you - the in utero development, and successive childhood development, shapes us physically and intellectually/emotionally.

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:47:02pm

re: #154 b_sharp

Have you talked to your local bacterium or virus community lately? They're willing and able to provide those services just for shits and giggles.

Not on such a large scale that we'd end up needing to clone people just to keep going, though.

157 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:48:05pm

re: #144 Lidane

That and they're so primitive and repressed that the only reason for sex at all is procreation. If you're married and aren't actively working to pump out a kid every nine months, you're just an immoral, selfish reprobate who is offending God. Or something.

It's one of the most fucked up things ever. All it does is push people towards sexual guilt and shame.

That's putting it mildly.

Things hidden from view inside the closet tend to jump out and bite you in the ass. Better to see it coming so it can be controlled.

158 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:49:04pm

re: #145 Decatur Deb

I'd like a gamma to help with the yard work.

My Gamma loved to do yard work, but she excelled in making Polish/German food.

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:49:27pm

re: #155 freetoken

On cloning - one thing to understand is that even if you were to be "cloned", the resulting person would still have differences from you - the in utero development, and successive childhood development, shapes us physically and intellectually/emotionally.

That's my concern--clones could never be 'replacement people'.

160 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:49:39pm

Boys From Brazil was an interesting movie regarding cloning if only because Gregory Peck called a woman an ugly bitch and him and Sir Laurence Olivier got in a fight. Plus I have the same weird blue eyes like the clones only my eyes are pretty and I am not a clone I swear.

161 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:49:49pm

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

That's my concern--clones could never be 'replacement people'.

And you know there's folks that would want them to be.

162 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:50:05pm

This Alpha is going to go to bed.

Another exciting Saturday night for the old folks here.

Have a good one all!

163 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:50:21pm

re: #161 SanFranciscoZionist

And you know there's folks that would want them to be.

Let the free market decide.

164 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:50:24pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

Speaking of twins, and clones, and such, a friend of my mother's has children--twins--a boy and a girl.

She says that when they were babies, people would ask their names, and she would tell them, "This is Andrew, and this is Rebecca," and then people would ask, "Are they identical?"

And she would just LOOK at them.

Sometimes they would realize what the problem with that question was and start laughing. Sometimes not.

I love that story.

She could have told them her kids shared a penis and a vagina between them.

165 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:50:28pm

re: #155 freetoken

On cloning - one thing to understand is that even if you were to be "cloned", the resulting person would still have differences from you - the in utero development, and successive childhood development, shapes us physically and intellectually/emotionally.

Yeah our experiences shape our personhood just as much as our DNA.

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:50:41pm

re: #160 HappyWarrior

Boys From Brazil was an interesting movie regarding cloning if only because Gregory Peck called a woman an ugly bitch and him and Sir Laurence Olivier got in a fight. Plus I have the same weird blue eyes like the clones only my eyes are pretty and I am not a clone I swear.

Also, I'm gonna speculate that you have no intention of being implanted with Hitler's brain?

167 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:50:57pm

re: #145 Decatur Deb

I'd like a gamma to help with the yard work.

I think that Huxley had those tasks assigned to Deltas or Epsilons. Too monotonous for a Gamma to be ideal.

168 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:51:48pm

re: #155 freetoken

On cloning - one thing to understand is that even if you were to be "cloned", the resulting person would still have differences from you - the in utero development, and successive childhood development, shapes us physically and intellectually/emotionally.

This.

169 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:51:49pm

re: #155 freetoken

On cloning - one thing to understand is that even if you were to be "cloned", the resulting person would still have differences from you - the in utero development, and successive childhood development, shapes us physically and intellectually/emotionally.

And while we may have the technology to (theoretically) clone a human, we are nowhere near the level of technology necessary to record and replicate a grown human's memories and experiences.

170 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:52:27pm

re: #160 HappyWarrior

Exactly. They would just be people with the same nuclear genetic material. They might even have different mtDNA, if a second party ovum had to be used.

Much more interesting to me is the application of genetic engineering to the Homo genus. I would like the ban lifted (where it exists) as we desperately need to address our future viability on a crowded, and probably greatly denuded, planet. I'm not really full on into transhumanism, but the ability to add important genetic functionality to the human breeding lines ought to be seriously looked at.

171 Achilles Tang  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:53:00pm

I think this is a bullshit denunciation by the Bishops.

It is purely a strategic/tactical disagreement, from a church that is more against birth control (never mind abortion) than the most extreme evangelicals are.

172 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:53:31pm

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

Not on such a large scale that we'd end up needing to clone people just to keep going, though.

Tell that to the extinct. There has been speculation that several species went extinct because of our little friends.

173 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:54:53pm

re: #169 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And while we may have the technology to (theoretically) clone a human, we are nowhere near the level of technology necessary to record and replicate a grown human's memories and experiences.

What about EMS-3 recombination?

174 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:56:03pm

re: #160 HappyWarrior

Boys From Brazil was an interesting movie regarding cloning if only because Gregory Peck called a woman an ugly bitch and him and Sir Laurence Olivier got in a fight. Plus I have the same weird blue eyes like the clones only my eyes are pretty and I am not a clone I swear.

So, you admit you are a clone?

CLONE!!!

175 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:56:19pm

re: #172 b_sharp

Tell that to the extinct. There has been speculation that several species went extinct because of our little friends.

One with our numbers and worldwide distribution, though? Not to mention fine communication skills?

176 Achilles Tang  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:56:29pm

re: #173 Decatur Deb

What about EMS-3 recombination?

I doubt I'm the only one to call for a longer sentence.

177 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:57:07pm

re: #163 Decatur Deb

Let the free market decide.

Talk about the development of an ethical quandary.

178 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:57:19pm

The fantasy with clones as always shown on the sitcoms or comedies is the original using his clone to do his dirty work and then brushing the clone aside for the stuff the original really enjoys. What does fascinate me about DNA and genetics is the different combinations of people that could exist. Like I imagine myself or my brothers with or without traits we inheirited. My one brother is a blonde with straight hair. It's funny to imagine him having dark, wavy hair like mine

179 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:57:44pm

Hi Lizards..Great day of Football..And we have the #1 and #2 teams playing each other tonight..What could be better than that? Well besides playing touch football with Megan Fox..
I'd buy a Peyton Manning Cloned Baby for 10 million..Great investment..
/

181 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:59:01pm

re: #176 Naso Tang

I doubt I'm the only one to call for a longer sentence.

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

182 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:59:08pm

At the bottom of all of this: the "Personhood" supporters refuse to accept that humans are indeed animals, primates, a collection of a few trillion cooperative cells with an enhanced signal processing and storage device (the brain.)

183 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:59:15pm
184 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 7:59:52pm

re: #173 Decatur Deb

What about EMS-3 recombination?

We've already tried it - ethyl, methane, sulfinate as an alkylating agent and potent mutagen; it created a virus so lethal the subject was dead before it even left the table.

185 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:00:08pm
186 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:00:09pm

re: #183 Varek Raith

The Office of the President is not told everything.

187 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:01:36pm

re: #183 Varek Raith

White House: There's no sign of E.T. or UFO cover-up
LIES

Don't let Alex Jones know.

188 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:01:57pm

re: #183 Varek Raith

White House: There's no sign of E.T. or UFO cover-up
LIES

"Uh... Mr. President. That's not entirely accurate."

/(too obscure?)

189 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:02:06pm

re: #183 Varek Raith

White House: There's no sign of E.T. or UFO cover-up
LIES

Wouldn't be much of a cover-up if there were sign.

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:02:18pm

re: #180 Lidane

*sigh*

KY GOPer Williams: ‘I Don’t See’ How My Hinduism Comments ‘Could Offend Anyone’

“He’s there participating with Hindu priests, participating in a religious ceremony,” Williams said. “They can say what they want to. He’s sitting down there with his legs crossed, participating in Hindu prayers with a dot on his forehead with incense burning around him. I don’t know what the man was thinking.”

Williams further told reports: “If I’m a Christian, I don’t participate in Jewish prayers. I’m glad they do that. I don’t participate in Hindu prayers. I don’t participate in Muslim prayers. I don’t do that. To get down and get involved and participate in prayers to these polytheistic situations, where you have these Hindu gods that they are praying to, doesn’t appear to me to be in line with what a governor of the Commonwealth of Kentucky ought to be doing.”

"Polytheistic situations."

191 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:03:04pm

re: #188 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"Uh... Mr. President. That's not entirely accurate."

/(too obscure?)

You did not just shoot that green shit at me!

192 Kragar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:03:09pm

re: #180 Lidane

*sigh*

KY GOPer Williams: ‘I Don’t See’ How My Hinduism Comments ‘Could Offend Anyone’

Well, that easy to overlook when you're a dick.

193 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:03:22pm

More video of the DC protests: Video of Occupy DC Siege of Koch brothers funded event at Washington Convention Center


Undesirable classes of cars are not allowed to pass road blockades. People attending prohibited meetings are not allowed to leave. This is OWS, filmed and posted by supporters of the movement. I know this hurts feelings and somehow reflects poorly on me but here it is. The heroes is action, peacefully protecting the 99%. Viva la revolution!
194 Mocking Jay  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:03:35pm

re: #169 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

And while we may have the technology to (theoretically) clone a human, we are nowhere near the level of technology necessary to record and replicate a grown human's memories and experiences.

Now I'm having thoughts of Stephen Hawking's mind on a flash drive.

195 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:04:03pm

re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist

One with our numbers and worldwide distribution, though? Not to mention fine communication skills?

Our huge numbers and tendency to group together would make the spread of either bug more efficient. The biggest threat to humans, other than ourselves, is the spread of deadly bacteria that is immune to our science or replicates too quickly to combat.

Bacteria can mutate at a scary rate, and virii adopts chunks of DNA from humans, animals, bacteria and other virii all too easily.

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:04:23pm

And now, after Williams called upon Hindus to “love and know Jesus,” he says he doesn’t know why people would be offended — as the comment was rooted in his belief that Jesus is the one and only route to salvation.

“I can’t see how anyone could object to the fact that if I believe that, that I pray for them to have salvation,” Williams told the Louisville Courier-Journal. “I don’t see how that could offend anyone.”

Mr. Williams, you can believe whatever the hell you like. However, since you're in politics, it would be wise not to mention some of your beliefs to people who are apt to take them personally, let alone attack other politicians for attending religious services you don't like.

197 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:05:14pm

re: #179 HoosierHoops

Hi Lizards..Great day of Football..And we have the #1 and #2 teams playing each other tonight..What could be better than that? Well besides playing touch football with Megan Fox..
I'd buy a Peyton Manning Cloned Baby for 10 million..Great investment..
/

Not without his family, it wouldn't. It's not even primarily the genes in his case, its somewhat more about how he was raised and what he believes. Peyton Manning is a champion first and foremost because he has the mindset of a champion.

198 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:05:46pm

re: #182 freetoken

At the bottom of all of this: the "Personhood" supporters refuse to accept that humans are indeed animals, primates, a collection of a few trillion cooperative cells with an enhanced signal processing and storage device (the brain.)

They refuse to accept we are our bodies and brains.

199 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:06:04pm

re: #188 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"Uh... Mr. President. That's not entirely accurate."

/(too obscure?)

"Which part?"

Very good use of ID4 there.

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:06:07pm

re: #195 b_sharp

Our huge numbers and tendency to group together would make the spread of either bug more efficient. The biggest threat to humans, other than ourselves, is the spread of deadly bacteria that is immune to our science or replicates too quickly to combat.

Bacteria can mutate at a scary rate, and virii adopts chunks of DNA from humans, animals, bacteria and other virii all too easily.

Oh well, then, bring on the clones.

201 Achilles Tang  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:06:24pm

re: #181 Decatur Deb

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

Oh. A classic that.

202 Mocking Jay  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:06:27pm

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist

And now, after Williams called upon Hindus to “love and know Jesus,” he says he doesn’t know why people would be offended — as the comment was rooted in his belief that Jesus is the one and only route to salvation.

“I can’t see how anyone could object to the fact that if I believe that, that I pray for them to have salvation,” Williams told the Louisville Courier-Journal. “I don’t see how that could offend anyone.”

Mr. Williams, you can believe whatever the hell you like. However, since you're in politics, it would be wise not to mention some of your beliefs to people who are apt to take them personally, let alone attack other politicians for attending religious services you don't like.

You deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.
Your argument is invalid.

203 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:07:02pm

re: #188 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"Uh... Mr. President. That's not entirely accurate."

/(too obscure?)

Good, goofy, and fun movie. Will is a favourite of mine, as is his wife.

204 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:07:11pm

re: #194 JasonA

Now I'm having thoughts of Stephen Hawking's mind on a flash drive.

Sounds like a Personality ROM...which now makes me want to reread Neuromancer.

205 McSpiff  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:07:28pm

re: #202 JasonA

You deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.
Your argument is invalid.

The bible is very clear on this point.

206 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:07:45pm

re: #197 Dark_Falcon

Not without his family, it wouldn't. It's not even primarily the genes in his case, its somewhat more about how he was raised and what he believes. Peyton Manning is a champion first and foremost because he has the mindset of a champion.

old nurture vs nature argument. I always leaned more towards nurture myself since I believe we're products of our surroundings.

207 Mocking Jay  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:08:01pm

re: #204 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Sounds like a Personality ROM...which now makes me want to reread Neuromancer.

Sometimes I'm happy that I won't live long enough to see advances like that come about.

208 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:08:35pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

Mississippi. Goddamn.

Everybody knows about it.

209 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:09:34pm

re: #207 JasonA

Sometimes I'm happy that I won't live long enough to see advances like that come about.

I find myself often wondering how much of the 80s cyberpunk novels will become reality within my lifetime. Certainly not the Soviet Union surviving into forever...

210 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:10:03pm

re: #202 JasonA

You deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.
Your argument is invalid.

She's just not perfected yet. Once SFZ becomes a perfect Jew, then she'll understand.

211 Achilles Tang  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:10:15pm

re: #205 McSpiff

The bible is very clear on this point.

All "bibles" are, and always have been.

212 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:10:58pm

re: #206 HappyWarrior

old nurture vs nature argument. I always leaned more towards nurture myself since I believe we're products of our surroundings.

Well, in the case of the Mannings (for even though Eli Manning is not as good as his older brother, he is still a good bit better than average and both men are good people) it is both. Talent combined with being raised right is the best formula for a champion.

213 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:11:47pm

re: #188 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Independence Day?

214 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:12:22pm

re: #213 OhNoZombies!

Independence Day?

*sheepish* Yes.

215 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:12:34pm

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

Well, in the case of the Mannings (for even though Eli Manning is not as good as his older brother, he is still a good bit better than average and both men are good people) it is both. Talent combined with being raised right is the best formula for a champion.

Yeah I think it's a little of both. Their older brother, Copper I understand was a talent too before he had a career ending injury.

216 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:14:09pm

re: #215 HappyWarrior

Yeah I think it's a little of both. Their older brother, Copper I understand was a talent too before he had a career ending injury.

You understand correctly.

217 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:16:08pm

re: #206 HappyWarrior

I never thought nature and nurture were independent. I kinda think it's both.

218 Kragar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:16:29pm

Entertainment from another age presents CIRCUS... ON ICE!

219 Mocking Jay  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:16:29pm

We keep dwelling on Mississippi's negatives, but at least they don't lynch civil rights workers anymore...

220 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:17:21pm

re: #217 OhNoZombies!

I never thought nature and nurture were independent. I kinda think it's both.

I do too but when it comes to things like personality, I think we're influenced by our surroundings.

221 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:18:12pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

I was an Archie manning fan in 1970. I was pulling for him in the Heisman race against Plunkett.

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:18:24pm

re: #209 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

I find myself often wondering how much of the 80s cyberpunk novels will become reality within my lifetime. Certainly not the Soviet Union surviving into forever...

Reading William Gibson's life's work is an interesting view into which countries and groups of people were supposed to pound us flat at different times.

First it was the Sovs, then it was the Japanese salaryman.

Then it was sort of vague, but, like Slavic gangsters of some kind.

Has he caught the Islamic terror wave yet? I lost interest at some point in the 90s, as you no doubt can tell.

BTW, has anyone here read George Alec Effinger? When Gravity Fails?

223 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:18:37pm

The princess is curretly watching Bride and Prejudice.

224 HappyWarrior  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:19:49pm

I would love to take a course on human genetics really. Never could fit into my schedule though and it's obviously not required course work for a history major/english minor.

225 Achilles Tang  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:19:56pm

re: #206 HappyWarrior

old nurture vs nature argument. I always leaned more towards nurture myself since I believe we're products of our surroundings.

The latter is true, but it is instructive that the ones we often use as examples are those who rise above their surroundings, not those who had all the benefits.

In sports however, it is hard to diminish the nature part. I think that those who know they have the potential naturally will tend to make the most of it via "nurture" where others don't even try.

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:21:17pm

re: #223 EmmmieG

The princess is curretly watching Bride and Prejudice.

I like that so much better than the original in any of its forms.

227 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:21:38pm

Yeah. But then again, have you ever noticed in families that ther are certain personalities that seem to pop up over and over.
Kind of like when a kid not only looks like great grandpa Willie, but he acts like him too. Even though grandpa died 10 years before the kid was born.

228 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:22:22pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh well, then, bring on the clones.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a downer. I spent a few years with a variety of biologists and other evolution know-it-alls and it was drilled into me that the evolution of bacteria and virii is pretty much unstoppable.

229 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:22:28pm

I am currently getting complaints that I did not supply The Princess with sisters for a Bollywood musical number.io

230 Achilles Tang  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:23:19pm

re: #222 SanFranciscoZionist

BTW, has anyone here read George Alec Effinger? When Gravity Fails?

No, but it sounds interesting. On my Kindle list now.

BTW, has anyone, again, tried to convince Charles to have a book recommendation section?

231 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:24:36pm

re: #217 OhNoZombies!

I never thought nature and nurture were independent. I kinda think it's both.

The ratio between the two isn't static within one trait and differs between traits. A lot of bigots can't accept that.

232 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:26:23pm

re: #222 SanFranciscoZionist

Reading William Gibson's life's work is an interesting view into which countries and groups of people were supposed to pound us flat at different times.

First it was the Sovs, then it was the Japanese salaryman.

Then it was sort of vague, but, like Slavic gangsters of some kind.

Has he caught the Islamic terror wave yet? I lost interest at some point in the 90s, as you no doubt can tell.

BTW, has anyone here read George Alec Effinger? When Gravity Fails?

Nope. But I'll check to see if the ebook is available on iTunes or Amazon.

233 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:26:39pm

re: #228 b_sharp

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a downer. I spent a few years with a variety of biologists and other evolution know-it-alls and it was drilled into me that the evolution of bacteria and virii is pretty much unstoppable.

Oh, don't worry about it. I always figured a bacterium would get me one of these days.

:)

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:27:02pm

re: #230 Naso Tang

No, but it sounds interesting. On my Kindle list now.

BTW, has anyone, again, tried to convince Charles to have a book recommendation section?

I would love that.

235 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:27:11pm

re: #233 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, don't worry about it. I always figured a bacterium would get me one of these days.

:)

No.
Nanobots.

236 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:27:30pm

re: #231 b_sharp

Absolutely. Genetics is a dangerous territory nowadays.
Steve Sailer and the human biodiversity bunch spring to mind.

237 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:27:59pm

re: #231 b_sharp

It's really a whole host of things.

There's our genetics, our genotype. Then there's our environment interacting with the genotype to produce our phenotype. There's likewise the phenotype of all our symbiotic organisms, all our bacterial flora that are necessary for our life and we'd die without. Then, beyond that genetic and structural component, there's the societal influence and our own self-determination-- though if you wanted to be fancy you could see that as just another pressure on the phenotype.

238 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:28:07pm

re: #233 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, don't worry about it. I always figured a bacterium would get me one of these days.

:)

Either that or the kids.

239 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:28:56pm

re: #237 Obdicut

Epigenetics?

240 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:30:05pm

re: #222 SanFranciscoZionist

Reading William Gibson's life's work is an interesting view into which countries and groups of people were supposed to pound us flat at different times.

First it was the Sovs, then it was the Japanese salaryman.

Then it was sort of vague, but, like Slavic gangsters of some kind.

Has he caught the Islamic terror wave yet? I lost interest at some point in the 90s, as you no doubt can tell.

BTW, has anyone here read George Alec Effinger? When Gravity Fails?

Don't think he did, but I haven't read any of his novels in awhile, so I can't swear by my memory.

And nah, never heard of it before. I'll put it on my short list of things to check out.

241 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:32:31pm

re: #224 HappyWarrior

I would love to take a course on human genetics really.

I've been looking for a good online video series that would cover genetics, focusing on humans, that could cover the subject broadly and deeply enough to be useful for serious study by the ardent lay student. Unfortunately I've not found one. There are lectures here and there that are very useful, given by geneticists and biological anthropologists, but they are either too shallow or too deep, or just can't fit into a series.

I have been trying for the past couple of years to grasp genomics (and human evolution) - a deep subject that takes some time to get the vocabulary down enough to be able to follow a contemporary research lecture.

I've also looked for a good introduction to population genetics for the general reader, but haven't found one. Most of the few texts that do exist are written for third year bio majors and can be exceedingly tedious.

242 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:32:59pm

re: #239 OhNoZombies!

That's a subset of it, but phenotypic changes include a lot of non-epigenic stuff.

243 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:34:33pm

re: #241 freetoken

Have you read Dawkin's stuff-- The Selfish Gene and The Extended Phenotype, and Ridley's The Red Queen?

244 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:37:35pm

re: #237 Obdicut

It's really a whole host of things.

There's our genetics, our genotype. Then there's our environment interacting with the genotype to produce our phenotype. There's likewise the phenotype of all our symbiotic organisms, all our bacterial flora that are necessary for our life and we'd die without. Then, beyond that genetic and structural component, there's the societal influence and our own self-determination-- though if you wanted to be fancy you could see that as just another pressure on the phenotype.

True, but only some of that is passed on to subsequent generations. Epigenetics, the effect of our environment on our genotype isn't something we can expect to pass on, unless our gametes experience DNA change, but the social influences, including bacterial flora, which can affect our mood and consequently how we think, can extend through quite a few generations. Anyone claiming a specific group is less intelligent, or more violent, or any other trait for that matter, strictly based on genetics so they should be treated differently is being completely dishonest.

The self determination part is going to be fun to watch.

245 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:38:22pm

re: #244 b_sharp

I wasn't talking about stuff being passed on to subsequent generations.

246 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:38:39pm

re: #241 freetoken

I think geneticists are being extremely careful right now. Lots of good info now as the technology is getting better and cheaper. However, they don't want to be co-opted and cherry-picked by bigots with an agenda.

247 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:39:10pm

re: #241 freetoken

I've been looking for a good online video series that would cover genetics, focusing on humans, that could cover the subject broadly and deeply enough to be useful for serious study by the ardent lay student. Unfortunately I've not found one. There are lectures here and there that are very useful, given by geneticists and biological anthropologists, but they are either too shallow or too deep, or just can't fit into a series.

I have been trying for the past couple of years to grasp genomics (and human evolution) - a deep subject that takes some time to get the vocabulary down enough to be able to follow a contemporary research lecture.

I've also looked for a good introduction to population genetics for the general reader, but haven't found one. Most of the few texts that do exist are written for third year bio majors and can be exceedingly tedious.

Talk to some biologists. Talk Origins would be a good start, especially John Harshman.

248 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:39:58pm

re: #243 Obdicut

Have you read Dawkin's stuff-- The Selfish Gene and The Extended Phenotype, and Ridley's The Red Queen?

Yes. More than once.

249 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:40:53pm

re: #245 Obdicut

I wasn't talking about stuff being passed on to subsequent generations.

I know, but I was.

250 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:42:11pm

re: #243 Obdicut

No, but from what I've seen (of reviews) of those works leads be to believe I'd want more than what is presented. Also, propositions are often given in books (and the Selfish Gene is what, 30 years old?) that later may be deemed somehow pointing in a non-productive direction.

For example, a great deal has been discovered in just the last couple of years about the population genetics of Homo, and the state of the art (from what I understand) of human genomics is trying to come to grips with working backwards from current genomes (for evolutionary study), or for understanding how and why certain alleles travel together and lead to certain traits, etc. That's kind of detailed for general books on evolution.

251 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:42:40pm

re: #244 b_sharp

I have to find a link, but I seem to recall evidence for some genetic changes being passed on from mother to child. If memory serves, the topic was regarding epigenetic changes related to lead exposure in the mother causing changes in DNA.

252 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:45:19pm

OK, Tucker and Dale vs. Evil is the shit.

"It's true, Chad. You're half-hillbilly!"

253 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:46:29pm

re: #247 b_sharp

Talk to some biologists. Talk Origins would be a good start, especially John Harshman.

There is lots, and lots, of information online.

But what I'm struggling with is finding a nice package of information that can succinctly answer, for example, objections to the conclusion that humans suffered a bottleneck n-thousand years ago, and that the minimum Homo population was m-thousand people, etc. And so forth.

What would be ideal would be, say, a 12 lecture series of 1 hour lectures complete with video/slides/supplemental material.

There are graduate courses online (on everything from plant genetics to genetic engineering), but again the audience is assumed to have more background than for that for which I am looking.

254 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:46:45pm

re: #251 OhNoZombies!

I have to find a link, but I seem to recall evidence for some genetic changes being passed on from mother to child. If memory serves, the topic was regarding epigenetic changes related to lead exposure in the mother causing changes in DNA.

There is an epigenetic effect, but I read it doesn't really go over many generations.

255 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:53:25pm

epigenetics...
I think you're right. It can be passed on but that can be changed through epiginetics as well. It's flexible.

256 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:55:33pm

Holy shit! just had a earthquake here..felt pretty strong and it lasted for awhile..wow!

257 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:56:43pm

re: #251 OhNoZombies!

I have to find a link, but I seem to recall evidence for some genetic changes being passed on from mother to child. If memory serves, the topic was regarding epigenetic changes related to lead exposure in the mother causing changes in DNA.

But it won't be passed on from that child to its child. There are genetic factors in how we react to developmental influences, but the epigenetic changes themselves are reliant on the chemicals that exist during the developmental process. If each generation is exposed to the same intestinal flora, the same environmental chemicals and conditions, the same environmental stresses, then it will appear traits have been passed on, but without actual changes to the gamete's DNA those traits won't really be passed on. It can get pretty complex from what I understand because DNA's changability/evolvability is 'programmed' into the DNA itself, so the DNA can change to affect it's ability to change.

The gamete production can be affected by epigenetics so that the next generation will find it easier to change according to the environment. At least that's what be found in bacteria.

As Obdi implied, it gets bloody complicated when you have to consider environment as well as genetics.

258 makeitstop  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:57:16pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

Holy shit! just had a earthquake here..felt pretty strong and it lasted for awhile..wow!

In OK? I heard on the radio that you guys had one this afternoon, too.

259 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:58:46pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

Holy shit! just had a earthquake here..felt pretty strong and it lasted for awhile..wow!

Did Winston warn you?

260 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:58:53pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

Holy shit! just had a earthquake here..felt pretty strong and it lasted for awhile..wow!

News says 3 earthquakes..Some injuries so far..

261 sagehen  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:59:07pm

re: #253 freetoken

What would be ideal would be, say, a 12 lecture series of 1 hour lectures complete with video/slides/supplemental material.

There are graduate courses online (on everything from plant genetics to genetic engineering), but again the audience is assumed to have more background than for that for which I am looking.

[Link: academicearth.org...]

Lots of undergrad stuff there; I've been listening to David Blight's Civil War course (Yale). It's really good... and I'm so glad I don't have to write a paper for him.

262 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:59:30pm

re: #253 freetoken

There is lots, and lots, of information online.

But what I'm struggling with is finding a nice package of information that can succinctly answer, for example, objections to the conclusion that humans suffered a bottleneck n-thousand years ago, and that the minimum Homo population was m-thousand people, etc. And so forth.

What would be ideal would be, say, a 12 lecture series of 1 hour lectures complete with video/slides/supplemental material.

There are graduate courses online (on everything from plant genetics to genetic engineering), but again the audience is assumed to have more background than for that for which I am looking.

My point is that you can actually ask professors/scientists questions at what ever level of knowledge you have and they will take that into account. Online courses are good, but direct communication with a teacher is better. At least in my experience.

263 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 8:59:37pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

Holy shit! just had a earthquake here..felt pretty strong and it lasted for awhile..wow!

Welcome to the club. We're printing t-shirts.

/

264 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:00:16pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

Holy shit! just had a earthquake here..felt pretty strong and it lasted for awhile..wow!

Are you sure it wasn't the tacos you ate earlier?

265 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:01:26pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

News says 3 earthquakes..Some injuries so far..

Not good.

Any fracking or deep mining in the area?

266 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:02:41pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

Holy shit! just had a earthquake here..felt pretty strong and it lasted for awhile..wow!

Indiana?

267 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:02:53pm

re: #257 b_sharp

No doubt.
My issue has been trying to find reliable sources. I am wary of magazine articles and blogs. Plus I have a bad habit of only reading the abstracts in tech. journals.
Interesting stuff though.

268 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:04:03pm

re: #263 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Welcome to the club. We're printing t-shirts.

/

Did you feel that? My big screen TV started rocking back and forth..I ran to hold onto it...I know.. If the place would have collapsed Winston would have been safe under the bed.. I'd be Dead clutching to the Samsung TV..

269 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:04:52pm

re: #266 EdDantes

Indiana?

Norman, Oklahoma

270 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:05:23pm

re: #268 HoosierHoops

Did you feel that? My big screen TV started rocking back and forth..I ran to hold onto it...I know.. If the place would have collapsed Winston would have been safe under the bed.. I'd be Dead clutching to the Samsung TV..

Nah, I was in the middle of the Great Virginia Quake of '11, earlier this year. The one that left people up and down the Eastern Seaboard going "What the fuck was that!?"

271 sagehen  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:06:04pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

Holy shit! just had a earthquake here..felt pretty strong and it lasted for awhile..wow!

Virginia a few months ago, now Oklahoma -- those rapture websites must be going into overdrive. (and none of them will take the obvious clue that GOD HATES RED STATES!! Because NO JESUS IS NOT A RANDIAN!!)

272 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:06:16pm

re: #267 OhNoZombies!

No doubt.
My issue has been trying to find reliable sources. I am wary of magazine articles and blogs. Plus I have a bad habit of only reading the abstracts in tech. journals.
Interesting stuff though.

That's why I mentioned t.o.. They've been considered a reliable source since the mid '90s as long as you differentiate between the scientists and the science geeks. PZ Myers is also good.

Abstracts are good for forming questions.

273 RadicalModerate  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:06:34pm

USGS has it as a 5.2 magnitude earthquake.
Definitely not insignificant.

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]

274 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:06:41pm

re: #262 b_sharp

Online courses are good, but direct communication with a teacher is better. At least in my experience.

Oh, I agree, but what I didn't make clear is that I am on the outlook for sources for multiple reasons. One is for my own education, and for that I can wonder the internet or ask whoever.

However, I'm also looking for nicely presented information for two other audiences: (1) those with no background in the subject but who are raising questions (for some reason, say a religious person who stumbles across the whole "Adam" imbroglio), and (2) for those who have a little bit of background in science but want to know from where we come, as a species, and why humans differ in this or that way.

275 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:10:45pm

Well, one hell of a night of football.

To the post we to which we are responding:

We have a damn good definition of human death. Why isn't it a definition of human life?

276 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:10:51pm

re: #274 freetoken

Oh, I agree, but what I didn't make clear is that I am on the outlook for sources for multiple reasons. One is for my own education, and for that I can wonder the internet or ask whoever.

However, I'm also looking for nicely presented information for two other audiences: (1) those with no background in the subject but who are raising questions (for some reason, say a religious person who stumbles across the whole "Adam" imbroglio), and (2) for those who have a little bit of background in science but want to know from where we come, as a species, and why humans differ in this or that way.

OK, what exactly are you looking for, a series of popular books, Highschool/University level texts, University web site with courses, or something else?

277 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:12:15pm

re: #272 b_sharp

I've heard of them.
...yet another website I'm sure to get addicted to, and get even mess done around the house...

278 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:13:06pm

re: #275 austin_blue

Well, one hell of a night of football.

To the post we to which we are responding:

We have a damn good definition of human death. Why isn't it a definition of human life?

Because human life, or more accurately the processes that when ended determine death, develop incrementally over 9 months or so.

279 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:14:00pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

Holy shit! just had a earthquake here..felt pretty strong and it lasted for awhile..wow!

You're in OK, right?

280 justaminute  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:14:12pm

Hoops, that earthquake really scared me. I have never felt anything like that in my life. My daughter checked and they said it was a 5.8. It's weird this is the 2nd quake in 2 days.

281 Ming  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:14:21pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

The church opposed in vitro, but I wonder if (like the conservative couple I used to know) how many "conservative followers of the church" actually oppose in vitro FOR THEMSELVES. For anyone who says that they (like the church) oppose abortion, but then quietly get in vitro for themselves, this bill poses a problem: it makes their behavior illegal.

Without the bill, their behavior is hypocritical: they loudly support the church, but privately get in vitro. With the bill, their behavior is illegal. I think this is what was meant in the blog post by calling the bill a "blunt instrument".

I don't mean that "blunt instrument" refers to in vitro per se, but without the bill, the religious right could yell and scream all they want about evildoers who get abortion and contraception and in vitro and family counseling at Planned Parenthood and who knows what... while privately doing whatever they want for their own families. But that bill is so broad, even religious fanatics can't be certain that it doesn't apply to THEM.

282 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:14:24pm

Just got home from work and the power is still out ... So tonight is our 8th night in a row in the cold and darkness. I certainly hope the head of Connecticut Light and Power pays for this cluster fuck with his job.

283 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:15:47pm

re: #280 justaminute

Hoops, that earthquake really scared me. I have never felt anything like that in my life. My daughter checked and they said it was a 5.8. It's weird this is the 2nd quake in 2 days.

I hope you guys remain OK.

284 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:15:51pm
285 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:16:00pm

This is my 1,000th post. I promise you that my next one thousand posts will be as inane and vacuous as my previous posts. Thank you for you support.

(No applause please: I'm over adored as it is.)

286 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:16:08pm

re: #268 HoosierHoops

I'm might switch to Firefox. Chrome is slow.

That was a 5.2. Any info on damage or effects?

287 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:16:53pm

re: #256 HoosierHoops

You're missing California, aren't you?
Be safe!

288 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:17:39pm

re: #278 b_sharp

Because human life, or more accurately the processes that when ended determine death, develop incrementally over 9 months or so.

Sometimes. Approximately 50% of fertilized eggs either don't implant in the uterine wall or are spontaneously aborted in the first three months of gestation. Who's to say a one month fetus, which has no functioning forebrain, would not have been spontaneously aborted within the next two months?

In any case, it's life, but not human life.

289 Ming  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:18:06pm

re: #281 Ming

I just thought of another example, other than in vitro. The bill is such a "blunt instrument" that it could be used to investigate any miscarriage. This goes beyond a bill that forbids the medical procedure of abortion. With this bill, if a woman simply (and quite unintentionally) miscarries, she could face prosecution. So again, from the viewpoint of the religious fanatic, this could happen to THEM.

290 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:18:15pm

That was a weird quake...Not like your basic California Quake..
First it was like a strong storm rippling under your feet...I thought it was a strong wind coming through..
A quote from a local scientist:
"It was actually the first one I've ever felt and I've worked here for 15 years," said Amy Gibson. "You know I hear reports of these all the time and to actually sound like thunder and feel like somebody hit the house with a car, and you know startles you. Those are all very legitimate descriptions and I can really relate to it.'
And then the shaking began..I know this shit.. My 73 inch TV was rocking back and forth.. I ran to save the TV..I still owe 1500 bucks on that Bitch...

291 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:18:37pm

Magnitude 5.2 - OKLAHOMA

Magnitude 5.2
Date-Time

Sunday, November 06, 2011 at 03:53:10 UTC
Saturday, November 05, 2011 at 10:53:10 PM at epicenter
Time of Earthquake in other Time Zones

Location 35.599°N, 96.751°W
Depth 5 km (3.1 miles)
Region OKLAHOMA
Distances 34 km (21 miles) NNE of Shawnee, Oklahoma
63 km (39 miles) SSE of Stillwater, Oklahoma
68 km (42 miles) ESE of Guthrie, Oklahoma
71 km (44 miles) ENE of OKLAHOMA CITY, Oklahoma
Location Uncertainty horizontal +/- 13.9 km (8.6 miles); depth +/- 3 km (1.9 miles)
Parameters NST=298, Nph=298, Dmin=208.2 km, Rmss=1.54 sec, Gp= 22°,
M-type=body wave magnitude (Mb), Version=9
Source

Magnitude: USGS NEIC (WDCS-D)
Location: USGS NEIC (WDCS-D)

Event ID usb0006klz

292 sagehen  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:18:41pm

re: #278 b_sharp

Because human life, or more accurately the processes that when ended determine death, develop incrementally over 9 months or so.

Not at all.

At the end of a human life, there's general agreement between doctors, lawyers, clergy and laypeople that brain activity or the lack thereof is where we draw the line between a human being, and something that just looks like one.

That seems a reasonable criteria to use for the beginning of a human life as well.

293 justaminute  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:19:48pm

re: #283 b_sharp

I hope you guys remain OK.

Thank you were fine. My husband is in Iran so I guess it is up to me to go outside and check the foundation. They just showed some damage to the homes from yesterday's quake. This house really shook.

294 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:20:17pm

re: #276 b_sharp

OK, what exactly are you looking for, a series of popular books, Highschool/University level texts, University web site with courses, or something else?

A video series, online. Supplemental PDFs etc. are fine, but the approach would be designed to appeal to those who want to watch something.

For group (1) maybe a two or three part series that details what constitutes the human genome, how we know that, and how individual humans differ. Then, some explanation of changes in the human genome over millennia. In enough detail that facts aren't just presented as hand-waving but are set into some historical context.

For group (2), a development similar to the above but with detail that handles issues of ancestral populations (genetically), genetic maladaptations, differences in nuclear and mitochondria DNA, speciation of Homo and population sizes, an overview of the methods of genetic testing, etc. Generally enough detail to make people think and to cover issues that are routinely raised in these areas. The idea is to give a solid background on what exactly Homo sapiens is as a species (genotype, not a general anthropological understanding), and how we know that.

295 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:21:04pm

re: #277 OhNoZombies!

I've heard of them.
...yet another website I'm sure to get addicted to, and get even mess done around the house...

I doubt you'll get addicted. It's a Google group (or newsgroup if you have access), and the interface sucks, and there is a lot of bullshit going on between evolution proponents and anti-evolutionists to sift through. Best thing is to find a thread that interests you and ask direct questions related to the thread. If you need to know the names of the scientists, email me and I'll do my best to fill you in.

296 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:21:13pm

re: #290 HoosierHoops

Used to live in OKC. Never thought of it as earthquake territory. I remember hearing of tornado's waltzing up May avenue.

297 jvic  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:22:05pm

re: #282 _RememberTonyC

Just got home from work and the power is still out ... So tonight is our 8th night in a row in the cold and darkness. I certainly hope the head of Connecticut Light and Power pays for this cluster fuck with his job.

Mine was out for 12 days after the 2008 ice storm, so I sympathize.

Places to my north and west got whacked this time, but my town in Central MA was lucky. Driving around I can see it was a close call: trees fallen away from power lines, lots of branches down, saplings split, etc.

298 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:22:15pm

re: #285 EdDantes

This is my 1,000th post. I promise you that my next one thousand posts will be as inane and vacuous as my previous posts. Thank you for you support.

(No applause please: I'm over adored as it is.)

Did you know your fly is open, and you have a booger in your left nostril?

299 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:22:39pm

re: #293 justaminute

Thank you were fine. My husband is in Iran so I guess it is up to me to go outside and check the foundation. They just showed some damage to the homes from yesterday's quake. This house really shook.

That was a strong quake..We shook pretty good here in Norman

300 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:22:49pm

re: #290 HoosierHoops

That was a weird quake...Not like your basic California Quake..
First it was like a strong storm rippling under your feet...I thought it was a strong wind coming through..
A quote from a local scientist:
"It was actually the first one I've ever felt and I've worked here for 15 years," said Amy Gibson. "You know I hear reports of these all the time and to actually sound like thunder and feel like somebody hit the house with a car, and you know startles you. Those are all very legitimate descriptions and I can really relate to it.'
And then the shaking began..I know this shit.. My 73 inch TV was rocking back and forth.. I ran to save the TV..I still owe 1500 bucks on that Bitch...

First Ryan Broyles and now this ... I hope tomorrow is better.

301 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:23:10pm

re: #288 austin_blue

Sometimes. Approximately 50% of fertilized eggs either don't implant in the uterine wall or are spontaneously aborted in the first three months of gestation. Who's to say a one month fetus, which has no functioning forebrain, would not have been spontaneously aborted within the next two months?

In any case, it's life, but not human life.

I completely agree.

302 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:23:58pm

re: #298 b_sharp

Did you know your fly is open, and you have a booger in your left nostril?

Yes. That is part of my charm. Chicks dig it.

303 justaminute  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:24:05pm

It's really true that animals know that a quake is coming. My dogs were asleep and then they came and stood by me. I thought they wanted to go outside because that is what they do. As soon as the quake was over they went back to their bed and went right to sleep. Must be nice.

304 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:24:47pm

re: #297 jvic

Mine was out for 12 days after the 2008 ice storm, so I sympathize.

Places to my north and west got whacked this time, but my town in Central MA was lucky. Driving around I can see it was a close call: trees fallen away from power lines, lots of branches down, saplings split, etc.

Someone posted a satellite photo of North America taken at night during the worst of it last week ... The whole northeast looked completely blackened.

305 Firstinla  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:25:55pm

re: #304 _RememberTonyC

Someone posted a satellite photo of North America taken at night during the worst of it last week ... The whole northeast looked completely blackened.

Any estimate as to when you might get power restored? Must be tough.

306 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:27:30pm

re: #305 Firstinla

Any estimate as to when you might get power restored? Must be tough.

They "promised" tomorrow at midnight, but they have lied through their teeth all week, so their credibility is zero.

307 Firstinla  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:28:18pm

I when I get a double post. And I don't know why it happens. Some of you folks are working on genetics and I'm still back here wondering about something I will never understand.

308 sagehen  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:28:54pm

From weekend update tonight:

"For the Greek bailout plan to pass, 17 countries have to be unanimous. I can't get three friends to agree on a restaurant; can you imagine how much harder it would be if we didn't speak the same language and our grandparents killed each other in World War II?"

309 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:29:00pm

re: #303 justaminute

It's really true that animals know that a quake is coming. My dogs were asleep and then they came and stood by me. I thought they wanted to go outside because that is what they do. As soon as the quake was over they went back to their bed and went right to sleep. Must be nice.

Winston Ran into the bedroom and under the Bed...
You know a warning bark would have been nice

310 Firstinla  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:29:51pm

Preview is my friend, when I use it.

311 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:30:13pm

Really want my power on by 4p tomorrow so I can watch the Giants/Patriots game ... I listened on the radio last Sunday but that novelty is OVER.

312 sagehen  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:30:21pm

re: #309 HoosierHoops

Winston Ran into the bedroom and under the Bed...
You know a warning bark would have been nice

oh, right, like he really wants to share under-the-bed with somebody a hundred times his size.

313 Big Joe  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:31:28pm

re: #307 Firstinla

I when I get a double post. And I don't know why it happens. Some of you folks are working on genetics and I'm still back here wondering about something I will never understand.

if it's like what I've seen it's an illusion, the page update does that when you enter a comment at just the right moment. Reload the page and I bet it's gone.

314 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:32:29pm

re: #292 sagehen

Not at all.

At the end of a human life, there's general agreement between doctors, lawyers, clergy and laypeople that brain activity or the lack thereof is where we draw the line between a human being, and something that just looks like one.

That seems a reasonable criteria to use for the beginning of a human life as well.

Why? All mammals have a point where brain activity starts, meaning brain activity isn't unique to humans and can't be used to draw a line that defines humanity. How about when the frontal lobe reaches a specific proportion of the brain, or when Broca's area starts lighting up?

315 Firstinla  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:32:55pm

Please don't tell me I'm seeing things. I've had only one beer.

316 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:33:20pm

re: #309 HoosierHoops

Winston Ran into the bedroom and under the Bed...
You know a warning bark would have been nice

And ruin the surprise???
:)

317 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:33:39pm

re: #294 freetoken

A video series, online. Supplemental PDFs etc. are fine, but the approach would be designed to appeal to those who want to watch something.

For group (1) maybe a two or three part series that details what constitutes the human genome, how we know that, and how individual humans differ. Then, some explanation of changes in the human genome over millennia. In enough detail that facts aren't just presented as hand-waving but are set into some historical context.

For group (2), a development similar to the above but with detail that handles issues of ancestral populations (genetically), genetic maladaptations, differences in nuclear and mitochondria DNA, speciation of Homo and population sizes, an overview of the methods of genetic testing, etc. Generally enough detail to make people think and to cover issues that are routinely raised in these areas. The idea is to give a solid background on what exactly Homo sapiens is as a species (genotype, not a general anthropological understanding), and how we know that.

I'll ask around and see if someone can help with that.

318 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:33:57pm

re: #315 Firstinla

Please don't tell me I'm seeing things. I've had only one beer.

You're not.
It happens sometimes. A hiccup in interwebz.

319 jvic  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:34:09pm

re: #304 _RememberTonyC

Someone posted a satellite photo of North America taken at night during the worst of it last week ... The whole northeast looked completely blackened.

I was surprised to learn how bad the damage was. My town has tree-lined streets so we are more vulnerable than most. (I like the tree-lined streets...though not so much when the power goes out during single-digit temperatures.)

Irene was supposed to pass right over us, but she swerved west (not east, west).

But after that gee dee ice storm, I think a karmic balance of good meteorological luck is only fair.

320 Firstinla  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:34:26pm

Refresh = Vanish. Thanks.

321 Big Joe  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:35:54pm

Rain in California and earthquakes in Oklahoma. It's a strange world we're living in.

322 b_sharp  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:37:39pm

re: #321 mracb

Rain in California and earthquakes in Oklahoma. It's a strange world we're living in.

Climate change.

323 Firstinla  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:37:53pm

re: #321 mracb

Rain in California and earthquakes in Oklahoma. It's a strange world we're living in.

Where I am in CA we had snow today, down to 3800'. Forecast is for more tomorrow. We have insignificant earthquakes a couple times a week.

324 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:37:59pm

re: #282 _RememberTonyC

Just got home from work and the power is still out ... So tonight is our 8th night in a row in the cold and darkness. I certainly hope the head of Connecticut Light and Power pays for this cluster fuck with his job.

Quite Concur. I rag on Chicago alot, but if it were Chicago where that storm happened and ComEd took this long to get the power back on, there would be several people fired already.

325 jvic  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:39:21pm

re: #282 _RememberTonyC

Just got home from work and the power is still out ... So tonight is our 8th night in a row in the cold and darkness. I certainly hope the head of Connecticut Light and Power pays for this cluster fuck with his job.

I forgot to ask: was the National Guard called out? If not, maybe you should include your governor in your imprecations. (For that matter, is there a FEMA presence?)

326 Big Joe  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:40:11pm

re: #323 Firstinla

Where I am in CA we had snow today, down to 3800'. Forecast is for more tomorrow. We have insignificant earthquakes a couple times a week.

We had a little 3.2 today, Berkeley, same area as the other quakes we had two weeks ago.

327 jaunte  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:40:38pm

re: #282 _RememberTonyC

Just got home from work and the power is still out ... So tonight is our 8th night in a row in the cold and darkness. I certainly hope the head of Connecticut Light and Power pays for this cluster fuck with his job.

Sorry to hear that. Try to stay as warm as you can.
Related:

Butler Doing Awesome Audition For Fall Guy
Two months ago, Hearst newspapers reported that CL&P used a loophole to avoid a requirement that executive salaries be disclosed to the state. Instead, the company reported the salaries for top dogs at its parent company, Northeast Utilities, where the head honcho made $8.2 million. His name? Charles Shivery.

328 jvic  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:41:49pm

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. I rag on Chicago alot, but if it were Chicago where that storm happened and ComEd took this long to get the power back on, there would be several people fired already.

As the late Mike Bilandic would attest.

329 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:43:04pm

re: #303 justaminute

It's really true that animals know that a quake is coming. My dogs were asleep and then they came and stood by me. I thought they wanted to go outside because that is what they do. As soon as the quake was over they went back to their bed and went right to sleep. Must be nice.

So you felt the quake?

330 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:43:19pm

re: #319 jvic

I was surprised to learn how bad the damage was. My town has tree-lined streets so we are more vulnerable than most. (I like the tree-lined streets...though not so much when the power goes out during single-digit temperatures.)

Irene was supposed to pass right over us, but she swerved west (not east, west).

But after that gee dee ice storm, I think a karmic balance of good meteorological luck is only fair.

Mother Nature is a bitch

331 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:44:56pm

re: #293 justaminute

re: #290 HoosierHoops

Glad you guys are ok. My daughter says she thought she felt it.

332 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:46:06pm

re: #325 jvic

I forgot to ask: was the National Guard called out? If not, maybe you should include your governor in your imprecations. (For that matter, is there a FEMA presence?)

Guard is in the towns .... FEMA adjusters also on the scene. The governor has been OK. He hasnt done any magic, but at least he shows up and communicates.

333 Firstinla  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:47:04pm

Why is it taking so long to get the system fixed?

334 Big Joe  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:48:01pm

USGS has updated the magnitude. It's now a 5.6. That size will get people's attention even in California.

335 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:48:20pm

re: #327 jaunte

Sorry to hear that. Try to stay as warm as you can.
Related:

Shivery ... Oh, the irony

336 makeitstop  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:49:50pm

re: #333 Firstinla

Why is it taking so long to get the system fixed?

From what I've heard, there was a lot of damage done to individual homes due to fallen trees/limbs.

But the power company has got big problems. The governor is calling for an investigation into the poor response.

337 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:51:26pm

re: #333 Firstinla

Why is it taking so long to get the system fixed?

Enormous tree damage was unprecedented and lines are still down in my neighborhood on the street. Mismanagement by CLP has not helped. They truly "came up small."

338 Kragar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:52:30pm

Cain: I'll never answer harassment questions

Speaking after a one-on-one debate with rival Gingrich on Saturday, Cain cut off reporters who asked about allegations of sexual harassment and suggested journalists who wanted answers were behaving unethically.

When one reporter tried to ask a question about the allegations, Cain cut him off. When another asked him if he planned to never address the allegations, he replied "you got it."

Cain says his staff does not want him to respond to the stories and "we are getting back on message, end of story."

339 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:53:53pm

re: #336 makeitstop

From what I've heard, there was a lot of damage done to individual homes due to fallen trees/limbs.

But the power company has got big problems. The governor is calling for an investigation into the poor response.

That's fine, but I think a lot of people will be getting Honda generators for Christmas gifts.

340 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:53:55pm

re: #334 mracb

USGS has updated the magnitude. It's now a 5.6. That size will get people's attention even in California.

Pretty good shaker..I was surprised with the Quake..It was different..
So I've been here for a year now.. I've been through Tornadoes, A blizzard, A 80mph hail storm, the Hottest summer of all recorded time, 2 Earthquakes and constant wind storms...

341 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:53:58pm

re: #337 _RememberTonyC

Enormous tree damage was unprecedented and lines are still down in my neighborhood on the street. Mismanagement by CLP has not helped. They truly "came up small."

Their lines and poles looked as new as 1958, 1966 tops.

342 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:55:31pm

re: #340 HoosierHoops

Pretty good shaker..I was surprised with the Quake..It was different..
So I've been here for a year now.. I've been through Tornadoes, A blizzard, A 80mph hail storm, the Hottest summer of all recorded time, 2 Earthquakes and constant wind storms...

Please don't move to my state ... I'm begging you :)

343 Firstinla  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:55:51pm

re: #340 HoosierHoops

Pretty good shaker..I was surprised with the Quake..It was different..
So I've been here for a year now.. I've been through Tornadoes, A blizzard, A 80mph hail storm, the Hottest summer of all recorded time, 2 Earthquakes and constant wind storms...

Obviously it's all your fault. Don't downding Winston because he didn't bark you a warning. /

344 makeitstop  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:56:08pm

re: #339 _RememberTonyC

That's fine, but I think a lot of people will be getting Honda generators for Christmas gifts.

That's what I'd be asking Santa for.

345 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:56:46pm

re: #341 prairiefire

Their lines and poles looked as new as 1958, 1966 tops.

The tops of utility poles were snapped like twigs ... Utter carnage

346 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:00:20pm

I bet all those millionaires in Litchfield county are wondering what the heck happened. They are not happy. My aunt and uncle fled to Easton and were taken in by friends.

347 Firstinla  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:02:46pm

re: #345 _RememberTonyC

Well, I hope your power is back on early tomorrow and that the rest of the week makes up for the 8 days of crap.

348 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:02:48pm

re: #345 _RememberTonyC

The tops of utility poles were snapped like twigs ... Utter carnage

Remember when I posted from a motel in Joplin MO after the Tornado?
I passed through a war zone..Huge trees ripped out of the ground by the roots..I was shocked and posted about the damage..You know those big steel power poles? trashed as far as the eye could see...

349 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:02:53pm

re: #346 prairiefire

I bet all those millionaires in Litchfield county are wondering what the heck happened. They are not happy. My aunt and uncle fled to Easton and were taken in by friends.

They' re mostly powered up down there. Farmington, Avon, West Hartford, and Simsbury are really in much worse shape at this point.

350 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:03:47pm

re: #347 Firstinla

Well, I hope your power is back on early tomorrow and that the rest of the week makes up for the 8 days of crap.

Thanks

351 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:05:14pm

re: #348 HoosierHoops

Remember when I posted from a motel in Joplin MO after the Tornado?
I passed through a war zone..Huge trees ripped out of the ground by the roots..I was shocked and posted about the damage..You know those big steel power poles? trashed as far as the eye could see...

I remember ... This storm was nothing like that twister ... We are far luckier than Joplin.

352 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:10:44pm

re: #340 HoosierHoops

Pretty good shaker..I was surprised with the Quake..It was different..
So I've been here for a year now.. I've been through Tornadoes, A blizzard, A 80mph hail storm, the Hottest summer of all recorded time, 2 Earthquakes and constant wind storms...

Outside of the earthquake, welcome to the greenhouse.

353 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:20:10pm

re: #352 austin_blue

Outside of the earthquake, welcome to the greenhouse.

Amen to that..I'm heading back home to Napa for Thanksgiving week...You will not believe this..But I swear it's true.. I'm watching In Wine Country on Cable...I'm missing home..
You know I've made so much fun of the Valley and the Wine and food snobs and half of Hollywood owning homes there...I love making fun of the upper 1%.. But it is home..And with my Dad sick..I miss my hometown..I miss my family...I miss my kids...I need to start planning about going back home.. They say you can never go home..But you can..My tears declare it is possible...Everything is possible...

354 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:27:34pm

re: #321 mracb

Rain in California and earthquakes in Oklahoma. It's a strange world we're living in.

And an asteroid the size of an aircraft carrier is going to pass by us next week.

355 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:31:33pm

re: #353 HoosierHoops

BIG ((HUG)) and a *smooch for good luck.

356 austin_blue  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:33:42pm

Adios, my friends, from Extraordinary Drought central Texas.

357 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:40:24pm

re: #354 Varek Raith

And an asteroid the size of an aircraft carrier is going to pass by us next week.

Geez, what next? R'lyeh rising from the depths?

/

358 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:42:50pm

re: #357 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Geez, what next? R'lyeh rising from the depths?

/

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

359 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:44:02pm

re: #355 Floral Giraffe

BIG ((HUG)) and a *smooch for good luck.

Hi my friend..So I've been watching Football all day..And then I turn on in wine country and I'm missing home...But check this out...
They were showing the wine walk in Santa Barbara like in the Movie Sideways.. I'm yelling at the TV that you guys are nothing more than Wine hacks! Hometown pride...LOL
effen Santa Barbara and Sonoma County! Hacks!
( Really..I got busted when I was 16 in a car parked in the Valley of the Moon with a girl..Freaking Sheriffs.. You would think with so much farmland you could pull over at night and kiss a girl.. But No...You can't fight the Law..They will win )

360 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:49:00pm

Don't you be dissing Santa Barbara...
*smack*

361 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:49:02pm

Good night.

362 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:00:49pm

re: #360 Floral Giraffe

Don't you be dissing Santa Barbara...
*smack*

It's funny..Years ago I stopped in to visit my rich uncle in Santa Barbara..
Everybody told me he was a dick..Who knows? He was a rich uncle living on St. Suzanna Street overlooking the Ocean..Unfortunately he really was a dick..
That was a bummer..I always wanted a old rich uncle..That wasn't a dick

363 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:05:17pm

re: #361 Varek Raith

Good night.

Scratch that, there is some serious shit going on across the street. Four cop cars, an ambulance and a fire truck.
Just got done locking all windows.
Oy.

364 EdDantes  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:07:13pm

Nite all.

365 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:07:23pm

re: #363 Varek Raith

Turn off the lights.

366 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:08:09pm

Went to bed too early and am awake again.

Someday, I'll have a normal sleep schedule again.

how is everyone?

367 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:11:19pm

re: #366 ggt

Went to bed too early and am awake again.

Someday, I'll have a normal sleep schedule again.

how is everyone?

Kind of awake.. Went through an Earthquake tonight..

368 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:11:43pm

re: #353 HoosierHoops

Amen to that..I'm heading back home to Napa for Thanksgiving week...You will not believe this..But I swear it's true.. I'm watching In Wine Country on Cable...I'm missing home..
You know I've made so much fun of the Valley and the Wine and food snobs and half of Hollywood owning homes there...I love making fun of the upper 1%.. But it is home..And with my Dad sick..I miss my hometown..I miss my family...I miss my kids...I need to start planning about going back home.. They say you can never go home..But you can..My tears declare it is possible...Everything is possible...


((((hoops)))))

369 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:11:55pm

re: #366 ggt

Went to bed too early and am awake again.

Someday, I'll have a normal sleep schedule again.

how is everyone?

Ok, hope you are as well. Have a good day tomorrow, lizards.

370 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:12:19pm

re: #367 HoosierHoops

Kind of awake.. Went through an Earthquake tonight..

Everything in one piece?

371 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:14:02pm

re: #370 ggt

Everything in one piece?

Yup! I was holding on to my TV for dear life and Winston ran under the bed.. My Dog is smarter than me

372 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:14:39pm

re: #371 HoosierHoops

Yup! I was holding on to my TV for dear life and Winston ran under the bed.. My Dog is smarter than me

Were you trying to protect the TV or thinking it would protect you?

:)

373 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:18:23pm

And they left.
No one arrested.
No one in the ambulance.
Cop told me everything is ok.

374 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:18:36pm

re: #372 ggt

Were you trying to protect the TV or thinking it would protect you?

:)

When the 73" Samsung started shaking on the stand I knew shit was going down..I did what any red blood American would do.. I Saved the TV.. I still owe 1500 dollars on it...I was holding on it for dear life...

375 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:19:07pm

re: #374 HoosierHoops

When the 73" Samsung started shaking on the stand I knew shit was going down..I did what any red blood American would do.. I Saved the TV.. I still owe 1500 dollars on it...I was holding on it for dear life...

LOL!

376 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:19:15pm

re: #374 HoosierHoops

When the 73" Samsung started shaking on the stand I knew shit was going down..I did what any red blood American would do.. I Saved the TV.. I still owe 1500 dollars on it...I was holding on it for dear life...

Damn right!
:)

377 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:19:51pm

s re: #373 Varek Raith

And they left.
No one arrested.
No one in the ambulance.
Cop told me everything is ok.

They always seem to say that. Doncha' wish they'd tell you what happened instead?

378 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:20:31pm

Sigh, now I'm not tired.

re: #377 ggt

s

They always seem to say that. Doncha' wish they'd tell you what happened instead?

Yep. I know the people who live there. I'll ask in the morning. They are my age and they do like to party...

379 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:20:52pm
"I've been as consistent as human beings can be," the presidential candidate said in a meeting with the editorial board of New Hampshire's Seacoast Media Group. "I cannot state every single issue in exactly the same words every single time, and so there are some folks who, obviously, for various political and campaign purposes will try and find some change and try to draw great attention to something which looks like a change which in fact is entirely consistent."

Ha ha ha, oh wow! He can't really believe this, can he? This is desperation, the man is Mr. Expedience. Gay rights, abortion, health care, climate change, immigration ... he's flip flopped on every issue that seemingly matters to his constituency.

380 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:21:25pm

re: #378 Varek Raith

Sigh, now I'm not tired.

Yep. I know the people who live there. I'll ask in the morning. They are my age and they do like to party...

The undead:

1-get tired
2-talk to the non-dead in the morning?

Hope everyone is OK.

381 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:22:38pm

re: #379 goddamnedfrank

Ha ha ha, oh wow! He can't really believe this, can he? This is desperation, the man is Mr. Expedience. Gay rights, abortion, health care, climate change, immigration ... he's flip flopped on every issue that seemingly matters to his constituency.

IOW's, "I'm a politician and will say whatever I think will get votes."

382 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:23:56pm

re: #380 ggt

The undead:

1-get tired
2-talk to the non-dead in the morning?

Hope everyone is OK.

It does bother me that there were so many LEOs and EMTs and have it not be serious enough to take someone to the hospital and/or jail.
:/

383 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:28:31pm

Bother Puppy got to rough and tumble with his Bother Sister tonite and he doesn't want to go to bed. He is trying to rough and tumble with the other dogs instead.

Most annoying.

384 Targetpractice  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:28:42pm

Seems that, perhaps, Cain may take a hit in the polls after all:

Cain's favorability drops after sex accusations: poll

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Allegations that Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain sexually harassed women in the 1990s have begun to damage his bid for the White House, a Reuters/Ipsos poll found.

The poll showed the percentage of Republicans who view Cain favorably dropped 9 percentage points, to 57 percent from 66 percent a week ago.

Among all registered voters, Cain's favorability declined 5 percentage points, to 32 percent from 37 percent.

The survey represents the first evidence that sexual harassment claims dating from Cain's time as head of the National Restaurant Association have taken a toll on his presidential campaign.

A majority of respondents, 53 percent, believe sexual harassment allegations against Cain are true despite his denials. Republicans were less likely to believe they are true, with 39 percent thinking they are accurate.

385 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:31:07pm

Rant time!

The whole city lost power last night for almost 2 hours.
Not a damn thing in the local paper online.
Not a damn thing from the utilities.
What the hell caused it?
Hell if anyone knows!
You'd think that'd be news or something?!?!
Sheesh.

386 Kragar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:35:36pm

re: #385 Varek Raith

Rant time!

The whole city lost power last night for almost 2 hours.
Not a damn thing in the local paper online.
Not a damn thing from the utilities.
What the hell caused it?
Hell if anyone knows!
You'd think that'd be news or something?!?!
Sheesh.

The first rule of Lights Club is you don't talk about Lights Club.

387 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:37:20pm

And now another ambulance.
No lights this time.
The hell is going on?

388 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:45:11pm

Let's try this again.

Good night.
:)

389 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:45:32pm

re: #295 b_sharp

I just logged back in. You are correct. TO was a mess, and the Laws of ADHD dictate...
Ooh look, a chicken...
Seriously though, it seems good for reference, and I bookmarked it.
Thank you. :)

390 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:48:10pm

Good Night Varek --

391 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:55:24pm

re: #321 mracb

Rain in California and earthquakes in Oklahoma. It's a strange world we're living in.

Yup, San Diego easily broke its record for rainfall on a Nov 4th:
[Link: www.wrh.noaa.gov...]
The inland areas west of the mountains got more.

We're supposed to get more rain on Sunday. Oh well, the loquats are loving it.

392 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:10:43pm
393 Kragar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:24:56pm

Society as we know it is on the verge of collapse.

They have made a porno version of "The Human Centipede"

394 Big Joe  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:31:28pm

re: #393 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Society as we know it is on the verge of collapse.

They have made a porno version of "The Human Centipede"

Rule #34

395 freetoken  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:31:44pm
396 Kragar  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:35:54pm

re: #394 mracb

Rule #34

Some lines should not be crossed.

397 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:40:09pm

re: #396 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Some lines should not be crossed.

I agree, somethings are better left to the imagination and left off of celluloid or digital stuff.

398 freetoken  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 1:22:06am
399 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 1:57:46am

Well, I just finished reading this.

It was so incredibly boring I think I can safely say I'll be able to sleep the rest of the night.

Have a great Sunday all!--

shortened as it will be. With all the daylight we'll be saving, maybe we should bundle it and sell it as an OTC derivative. oh no wait, that is for debt. OK, for all the dark will have to extend to save on daylight . . . .

";0

400 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 1:07:15am

re: #5 Sergey Romanov

I have a gut feeling they're objecting because this bill tactically harms them, not on principle.

No need for gut, they're saying as much explicitly. Kinda like Pat Robertson, as pointed out by Frank.

401 boxhead  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 1:22:27am

re: #400 000G

No need for gut, they're saying as much explicitly. Kinda like Pat Robertson, as pointed out by Frank.

[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

Why can't this quote

“It is a blunt instrument which, if passed, will harm Mississippi women and their families both physically and spiritually,” said Rabbi Debra Kassoff. “Because God has sanctified not only fetal life, but all life,

be what they truly believe? The last three words being the key.

402 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 1:48:18am

re: #401 boxhead

Why can't this quote

be what they truly believe? The last three words being the key.

Should have made myself clearer: I was talking about the Catholic bishops.

403 researchok  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 1:56:43am

Morning, all

404 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 2:53:32am

Morning Folks. Stupid DST, I thought I was sleeping in this morning.

405 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 3:22:47am

5.6 quake hits OK, light to moderate damage reported (chimneys and roof damage).

406 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 3:29:35am

[Link: www.pnas.org...]
Scale-free correlations in starling flocks

407 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 3:33:53am

A little pot is trouble in NYC: 50k busts a year
[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

NEW YORK (AP) -- As the nation's biggest city deals with threats of terrorism and a variety of violent crimes, carrying a little bit of marijuana is still a big deal.

There are more arrests for low-level pot possession in New York City - about 50,000 a year - than any other crime, accounting for about one of every seven cases that turn up in criminal courts.

It's a phenomenon that has persisted despite more leniency toward marijuana use - the state loosened its marijuana-possession laws more than 30 years ago.

Critics say the deluge has been driven in part by the New York Police Department's strategy of stopping people and frisking those whom police say meet crime suspects' descriptions. More than a half a million people, mostly black and Hispanic men, were stopped last year - unfair targets, critics say. About 10 percent of stops result in arrests.

The department says that the strategy's main goal is to take guns off the street and prevent crime, and that the tactic is a life-saving tool. But critics say officers looking for guns in pockets more often find pot and - though state law says the drug is supposed to be in open view to warrant an arrest - lock up the possessor anyway.

Half a million people who have done nothing wrong are stopped and frisked every year.

408 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 3:36:44am

Police, Occupy DC protesters differ on collision
[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

Police said Saturday that a driver will not be charged for striking the three people Friday evening.

Assistant Police Chief Lamar Greene said at a Saturday evening press conference that police concluded from talking to two witnesses that the collision was unavoidable. But the three people involved in the crash gave a different story.

Hundreds of protesters affiliated with Occupy DC shut down streets Friday night near the city's convention center in downtown, where a conservative group was gathering. The two adults and one teenager who were struck were taken to the hospital after the collision and later released.

Lt. Christopher Micciche (MITCH'-ih-kay) of the D.C. police said the driver was not cited because he had a green light when his vehicle struck the three at around 10 p.m.

"The protesters were apparently trying to block the roadway," Micciche said. "It was essentially an accident where three individuals were injured but they were in violation by being in the roadway."

Micciche said witnesses told police that the three pedestrians "either ran toward or jumped in front of the moving vehicle." He said one pedestrian jumped on the hood of the car.

But the demonstrators said that wasn't true.

409 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 3:49:43am

re: #407 RogueOne

A little pot is trouble in NYC: 50k busts a year
[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

Half a million people who have done nothing wrong are stopped and frisked every year.

Don't commit a crime Citizen and you have nothing to fear!
//

Also, Good Morning Honcos!

410 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 3:55:55am

re: #409 rwdflynavy

Don't commit a crime Citizen and you have nothing to fear!
//

Also, Good Morning Honcos!

True but part of the deal is if it's in their pocket it's not an actual offense. The ACLU filed a suit recently where they allege the police stop someone, asks what is in their pockets, ask to see it, and then arrest them when they whip it out so to speak.

411 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 3:58:14am

re: #410 RogueOne

True but part of the deal is if it's in their pocket it's not an actual offense. The ACLU filed a suit recently where they allege the police stop someone, asks what is in their pockets, ask to see it, and then arrest them when they whip it out so to speak.

This highlights the goofy drug laws. Either legalize it or penalize all drug offenses. The schizophrenic nature of drug laws is ridiculous.

412 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:00:21am

Dog - Police Horse Confrontation in OWS:

414 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:04:48am

Who says my short term memory blows?

NYPD Orders Officers to Stop Unlawful Marijuana Arrests
[Link: www.aclu.org...]

In an exciting step forward for justice and common sense, NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly has issued a directive ordering officers to stop arresting people for misdemeanor marijuana possession when the pot only becomes "public" because an officer has searched a person or directed the person to empty his or her pockets.

In New York, possessing a small amount of marijuana is not a crime unless it is in public view. If you're caught with a little pot in your pocket or bag, you can be ticketed and fined, but not arrested. Yet, according to researchers, over the past several years NYPD officers have wrongfully arrested hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers on misdemeanor marijuana possession charges after coercing or tricking them into revealing small amounts of pot they had concealed in their pockets or bags.

I think the rule is Always Keep It In Your Pants!

415 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:15:32am

Morning Honcos.

416 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:24:25am

re: #415 Cannadian Club Akbar

Morning Honcos.

Yo, wassup, Pork Chap?

//sorry

417 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:25:46am

So my friend I'm staying with got mad at me last night because I had a couple cocktails while kicking back with some music. Now, about 6 years ago I did get a bit hammered and was an ass at his house. But last night, just relaxing. But I was read the riot act. My friend had about 12 beers. Why does life hate me?
/

418 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:34:00am

re: #417 Cannadian Club Akbar

Where you listening to something offensive, like country music?

419 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:34:58am

re: #418 RogueOne

Where you listening to something offensive, like country music?

No country, no rap. But I kinda dig Eminem. Not sure why.

420 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:35:30am

Now playing on my computer.

421 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:37:24am

re: #419 Cannadian Club Akbar

That's about the only hip-hop I can listen to.

422 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:38:33am
423 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:39:51am

Muslim hajj pilgrims perform devil stoning ritual
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

It is one of the most dangerous stages of the hajj, with the press of people around the pillars creating the risk of a stampede. In 2004, 244 people were killed, and the following year at least 360 others killed when several pilgrims tripped over baggage while others behind them kept pushing ahead. Saudi authorities subsequently built the current complex to reduce the stampede danger.

Officials estimate that 2.5 million pilgrims have joined the hajj this year.

Male pilgrims in the two-piece seamless white robes worn during the hajj, and women covered head to foot except for their hands and faces, chanted "God is great" while casting the pebbles.

"Hurry up, pilgrims," Saudi security officers called out through loudspeakers, to prevent crowds from building up next to the pillars.

"You're going to need a couple of stitches Pilgrim"

424 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:42:24am

re: #423 RogueOne

Check your mail. I sent you some porn.

425 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:44:46am

re: #423 RogueOne

A new use for the "Shover Robot".

426 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:50:46am

A local high school team made the football play-offs based on strength of schedule. They're 1-9.

Dang.

427 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:51:48am

For anyone interested in the Cain-Gingrich debate for whatever crazy reason:

[Link: www.c-span.org...]

428 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:54:16am

re: #426 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A local high school team made the football play-offs based on strength of schedule. They're 1-9.

Dang.

My high skool won Friday night. The coach let the kicker kick a FG as time expired, up 49-14 at the time. Local paper said "It was a record setting field goal". OK. They didn't mention what the record that was broken was. Most points? Longest FG? WTF? This is why I hate my local paper.

429 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:55:58am
430 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:59:49am

re: #422 Sergey Romanov

Uh-oh.

When the Flame Wars come, I'm coming for you///

431 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:03:53am

Penn:

Flame War!

432 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:04:49am

re: #417 Cannadian Club Akbar

Drinking and theater : chocolate and peanut butter

433 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:05:23am

re: #430 RogueOne

When the Flame Wars come, I'm coming for you///

Good, coz I'm sure as heck won't be running around looking for you. You do the walking part.//

434 Aye Pod  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:09:29am

How to become a millionaire using your CGI skillz:

435 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:12:39am

Ha.

I was having a sucky morning but damn, this is just making me laugh endlessly:

Hackers mistake French rugby fansite for German stock exchange

Information warriors, my ass.

Website blames 'young, spotty Teuton' for attack

436 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:14:29am

re: #431 RogueOne

In the Neck!

437 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:16:43am

Hey, how about that game last night? Real defense on both sides of the ball for a change & Saban get's defeated. It rarely gets better than that. (Please note, I have nothing against the Tide, as such, but it's such a sweet joy when Saban goes down...)

438 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:18:10am

re: #437 wlewisiii

Here's the Tshirt I mentioned a couple weeks ago.
[Link: www.tshirthell.com...]

439 Aye Pod  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:20:32am

re: #431 RogueOne

Penn:

Flame War!

[Video]

Penn is a douchebag too, of course (one of my favourite ones though)!

440 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:32:55am
441 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:34:21am

re: #434 Jimmah

How to become a millionaire using your CGI skillz:

[Video]

Funny! So true. Almost as bad as Blender.

442 Shropshire_Slasher  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:34:28am

re: #438 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think Selena Gomez will take him out, he always uses the "I'm a virgin line" to bed the beauties.

443 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:38:20am

re: #442 Shropshire_Slasher

I think Selena Gomez will take him out, he always uses the "I'm a virgin line" to bed the beauties.

Biebers fans react to the news that he got someone pregnant. These bitches are fucking nuts.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

444 Aye Pod  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:39:54am

re: #441 Gus 802

Funny! So true. Almost as bad as Blender.

Heh. It is kinda remarkable how many of these 3d tutorial videos on the web seem to be voiced by socially maladjusted scandinavians.

445 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:41:28am

re: #444 Jimmah

Heh. It is kinda remarkable how many of these 3d tutorial videos on the web seem to be voiced by socially maladjusted scandinavians.

Was he trying to be serious? Hope not. ;)

446 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:43:36am

re: #431 RogueOne

Penn:

Flame War!

[Video]

I've seen that before. Still waiting to get the 8 minutes and 33 seconds back into my life again.

/

447 Shropshire_Slasher  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:45:06am

re: #446 Gus 802

You would just waste it
/

448 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:45:37am

re: #447 Shropshire_Slasher

You would just waste it
/

Liar! I always use my time efficiently.

//

449 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:46:26am

Image: 65880425.jpg

“I definitely never expected it to become this big,” says Kristen Christian, a 27-year-old Echo Park resident who started “Bank Transfer Day,” a national movement encouraging consumers to move their money from large U.S. banks to nonprofit credit unions by Saturday. More than 75,000 people have pledged to participate. (Anne Cusack, Los Angeles Times / November 3, 2011)

450 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:49:07am

re: #446 Gus 802

I've seen that before. Still waiting to get the 8 minutes and 33 seconds back into my life again.

/

What Sergey said!
#436

451 Aye Pod  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:50:50am

re: #445 Gus 802

Was he trying to be serious? Hope not. ;)

Nah thankfully a parody - but a good one. In a similar vein, parodying 3D showreels:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

452 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:53:06am

A vicious cycle in the used-car business

Ken Bensinger, Los Angeles Times
October 30, 2011
First of three parts

Tiffany Lee wanted a car. She was weary of the two-hour bus ride to her job at a UCLA Health System clinic. She hated having to ask friends to drive her 7-year-old son to his asthma treatments.

But as a single mother with three children, bad credit and a $27,000-a-year salary, she couldn't find a bank or dealership willing to give her a loan.

Then a friend steered her to Repossess Auto Sales in Hawthorne.

Another buyer might have balked at the deal she was offered. Lee figured she had no choice. She put $3,000 down and drove off in a 2007 Ford Fusion, agreeing to pay $387 a month for four years. The interest rate: 20.7%, nearly triple the national average for a used-car loan.

A year and a half later, Lee fell behind on her payments and filed for bankruptcy. So she was relieved when the dealership called and offered to make her loan more affordable. The sales manager even promised to throw in a free smog check. Lee, 35, drove back to Repossess Auto on a rainy Monday evening, handed the keys to an attendant and sat down with the manager...

This is the latest trend at all used car dealerships. They won't let you but some cheap thing for $7000 grand or less. They claim "the bank won't approve anything for less than 10 grand." So they force people who really need a car to get a car they can't afford leading to high monthly payments and eventually they get repossessed. It's a scam and the banks are working with the dealerships. Better off getting the cash raised and buying something cheap and not fall into this "Great American Financial Trap" -- one of many.

453 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:56:41am

re: #406 Sergey Romanov

[Link: www.pnas.org...]
Scale-free correlations in starling flocks

Heh. Nice:

From bird flocks to fish schools, animal groups often seem to react to environmental perturbations as if of one mind.

Most studies in collective animal behavior have aimed to understand how a globally ordered state may emerge from simple behavioral rules. Less effort has been devoted to understanding the origin of collective response, namely the way the group as a whole reacts to its environment.

Yet, in the presence of strong predatory pressure on the group, collective response may yield a significant adaptive advantage. Here we suggest that collective response in animal groups may be achieved through scale-free behavioral correlations.

By reconstructing the 3D position and velocity of individual birds in large flocks of starlings, we measured to what extent the velocity fluctuations of different birds are correlated to each other. We found that the range of such spatial correlation does not have a constant value, but it scales with the linear size of the flock.

This result indicates that behavioral correlations are scale free: The change in the behavioral state of one animal affects and is affected by that of all other animals in the group, no matter how large the group is. Scale-free correlations provide each animal with an effective perception range much larger than the direct interindividual interaction range, thus enhancing global response to perturbations.

Our results suggest that flocks behave as critical systems, poised to respond maximally to environmental perturbations.

454 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:56:56am

re: #452 Gus 802

Buy here/pay here car dealers have been doing the same shit for years. And if you're a day late with a payment, they'll snatch your car. I've never paid more than $2K for a car.

455 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:58:16am

re: #452 Gus 802

Added to that 20% interest is the big increase in used car prices over the last few years. I've been looking and prices have gone crazy. I bought my wife a new (to her) vehicle for her b-day, just showed it to her yesterday. Luckily I have a friend who owns a very nice repair shop. He helped me put together a vehicle with a brand new engine and transmission for less than $6k.

456 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:59:11am

re: #451 Jimmah

Nah thankfully a parody - but a good one. In a similar vein, parodying 3D showreels:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Yeah. On the serious side "he with the most expensive 3d and rendering program wins." Throw in a hot rod computer and it's an even easier win. Right now the computer "art" world is dominated by a bunch of well off people. Plus all you see these days is photoreal rendering work with a few non-photoreal. And a lot of people will use components to create scenes. Not really that creative. It's all about machines, software, and pushing the right buttons.

457 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:00:26am

re: #421 Sergey Romanov

That's about the only hip-hop I can listen to.

If you can listen to Eminem, there is other hip-hop that you can listen to. He's not that unique.

458 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:01:02am

re: #455 RogueOne

Added to that 20% interest is the big increase in used car prices over the last few years. I've been looking and prices have gone crazy. I bought my wife a new (to her) vehicle for her b-day, just showed it to her yesterday. Luckily I have a friend who owns a very nice repair shop. He helped me put together a vehicle with a brand new engine and transmission for less than $6k.

Banks are losing money! That's why they have to charge high interest rates.

//

459 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:02:08am

We need another Cash for Clunkers abortion program!!!
/

460 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:03:23am

re: #458 Gus 802

I read the story you posted a few days ago. I read something similar somewhere else but I'm having a hard time remembering where. It looks like a lot of banks and dealerships are starting to get in on the buy/pay-here model because of the huge markup.

461 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:03:29am

re: #449 Gus 802

Image: 65880425.jpg

“I definitely never expected it to become this big,” says Kristen Christian, a 27-year-old Echo Park resident who started “Bank Transfer Day,” a national movement encouraging consumers to move their money from large U.S. banks to nonprofit credit unions by Saturday. More than 75,000 people have pledged to participate. (Anne Cusack, Los Angeles Times / November 3, 2011)

So how long until BofA et al will demand those billions in bailout or else?

462 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:03:55am

re: #457 000G

If you can listen to Eminem, there is other hip-hop that you can listen to. He's not that unique.

I just don't go searching I guess.

463 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:04:15am

re: #459 Cannadian Club Akbar

We need another Cash for Clunkers abortion program!!!
/

watching some of the videos of some great cars getting killed like that kind of hurt my feelings. I got a little misty eyed watching them destroy a beautiful vette.

464 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:04:36am

re: #460 RogueOne

I read the story you posted a few days ago. I read something similar somewhere else but I'm having a hard time remembering where. It looks like a lot of banks and dealerships are starting to get in on the buy/pay-here model because of the huge markup.

It's disgusting. You know what they're doing? They creating another bubble like they did with the housing market. I call it the "used car bubble". Smaller in scale but significant nonetheless.

465 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:05:06am

re: #452 Gus 802

A vicious cycle in the used-car business

This is the latest trend at all used car dealerships. They won't let you but some cheap thing for $7000 grand or less. They claim "the bank won't approve anything for less than 10 grand." So they force people who really need a car to get a car they can't afford leading to high monthly payments and eventually they get repossessed. It's a scam and the banks are working with the dealerships. Better off getting the cash raised and buying something cheap and not fall into this "Great American Financial Trap" -- one of many.

The used-car bubble? Really?

466 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:05:47am

re: #464 Gus 802

It's disgusting. You know what they're doing? They creating another bubble like they did with the housing market. I call it the "used car bubble". Smaller in scale but significant nonetheless.

Heh. I wrote 465 before I read that.

But yeah. Bad loans. Prepare for the bailout, people!

467 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:05:54am

re: #465 000G

The used-car bubble? Really?

It's patriotic.

//

468 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:06:14am

re: #463 RogueOne

watching some of the videos of some great cars getting killed like that kind of hurt my feelings. I got a little misty eyed watching them destroy a beautiful vette.

Well, it was fucking stoopid because some people who can't afford a car payment need those cars for parts from a junk yard. But, whatever. It was only 2 billion dollars. Fucking morons.

469 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:06:45am

re: #466 000G

Heh. I wrote 465 before I read that.

Glad someone else noticed this. It really is a "used car bubble".

470 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:07:14am

re: #464 Gus 802

My SiL is about to turn 19 and she wants a new car badly. She works as a waitress and makes decent money for a teenager but the only credit she has is at Victoria Secret, no one will even talk to her about a loan. She looked at a car at one of those places and I managed to talk her out of it. She has patience issues but her love of saving money won out.

471 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:08:29am

re: #470 RogueOne

My SiL is about to turn 19 and she wants a new car badly. She works as a waitress and makes decent money for a teenager but the only credit she has is at Victoria Secret, no one will even talk to her about a loan. She looked at a car at one of those places and I managed to talk her out of it. She has patience issues but her love of saving money won out.

Pics or else you're a liar.
/

472 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:10:57am

re: #471 Cannadian Club Akbar

Pics or else you're a liar.
/

The amount of money that girl puts into bras during the month would pay for a car.

473 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:11:22am

re: #470 RogueOne

My SiL is about to turn 19 and she wants a new car badly. She works as a waitress and makes decent money for a teenager but the only credit she has is at Victoria Secret, no one will even talk to her about a loan. She looked at a car at one of those places and I managed to talk her out of it. She has patience issues but her love of saving money won out.

I spent a couple of days driving a friend of mine to these places. No dice. He wanted a 5,000 dollar car and they just wouldn't approve the loan for it. They all came back saying "we can't approve this loan but we will approve this loan." And that loan was twice or more. It was true too. The dealers weren't lying. The banks were forcing the customers to spend more. The higher the loan the better the return on interest rates for both parties. The banks and the dealerships will say "we can't make any money on these lower priced cars."

Anyway. He wound up buy a used Blazer from a private party for 2 grand. It's almost a clunker but he doesn't have to worry about the monthly payment BS. Plus when you finance a car, as you know, you have to get collision and then you wind up paying 1000s for car insurance.

(Rough ideas here. I'm still waking up.)

474 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:12:08am

re: #469 Gus 802

Glad someone else noticed this. It really is a "used car bubble".

Anything becomes a bubble once collateralization gets tossed out of the window. I guess what keeps this one from growing is that the default rate seems to happen close to the actual loan. But I am sure there is a way to bundle this crap up, sell it all over the globe as golden eggs and wait a few years while insuring the crap and hedging shorting bets.

475 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:12:08am

re: #462 Sergey Romanov

I just don't go searching I guess.

Great hip-hop, my favorite dude, probably, GZA.


Great Trip-hop:

476 Aye Pod  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:13:48am

re: #456 Gus 802

Yeah. On the serious side "he with the most expensive 3d and rendering program wins." Throw in a hot rod computer and it's an even easier win. Right now the computer "art" world is dominated by a bunch of well off people. Plus all you see these days is photoreal rendering work with a few non-photoreal. And a lot of people will use components to create scenes. Not really that creative. It's all about machines, software, and pushing the right buttons.

Yeah you definitely need a powerful pc/mac (preferably several) to do anything involving any kind of scale or finesse these days in 3D. Mostly I think using components is all about getting the job done in time when tight-fisted clients demand a lot in a very short space of time fot not a lot of money. They get the quality/creativity they pay for. Of course it can also be lazy ass artists who don't care about anything beyond the paycheck.

477 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:15:00am

re: #476 Jimmah

That's one reason I really like minecraft, reminding us that graphics are not king.

478 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:15:09am

re: #474 000G

Anything becomes a bubble once collateralization gets tossed out of the window. I guess what keeps this one from growing is that the default rate seems to happen close to the actual loan. But I am sure there is a way to bundle this crap up, sell it all over the globe as golden eggs and wait a few years while insuring the crap and hedging shorting bets.

OMG! You have a future at AIG.

//

479 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:17:30am

When I was 26 I went to a Lexus dealership wearing shorts and a tshirt. Pulled up in my Toyota Tercel. Salesman came out and said "I don't think we have anything that you'd like". This was in 1994. I could have had a $600/month car payment without problems. More than enough for most cars on the lot. Douche.

480 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:17:48am

re: #477 Obdicut

That's one reason I really like minecraft, reminding us that graphics are not king.

It's a very well done game. I think it's the only game I purchased this year.

481 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:18:19am

Oh boy. Get ready for the price of oil to jump. Big time.

482 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:18:47am

War drums.

483 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:18:53am

re: #473 Gus 802

We're about to do the In vitro thing again and the wife made a joke about buying a mom car-minivan for good karma. I mentioned it as a joke to my buddy and he had one sitting there with a blown motor. An old retired guy bought it new in 2006 and used it to deliver refabbed medical equipment back and forth to florida. He put 200k miles on it when the transmission went out and 25k miles later the motor blew. I bought it cheap and he put in a new engine and all new suspension parts. He finished it up this week and I had a mini-panic attack yesterday because I had bought it without actually consulting her.

484 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:20:15am

re: #483 RogueOne

We're about to do the In vitro thing again and the wife made a joke about buying a mom car-minivan for good karma. I mentioned it as a joke to my buddy and he had one sitting there with a blown motor. An old retired guy bought it new in 2006 and used it to deliver refabbed medical equipment back and forth to florida. He put 200k miles on it when the transmission went out and 25k miles later the motor blew. I bought it cheap and he put in a new engine and all new suspension parts. He finished it up this week and I had a mini-panic attack yesterday because I had bought it without actually consulting her.

Funny. Sounds like my brother's minivan. I think it was sitting on his driveway for a while and he finally fixed it? Not sure but he still has it. Damn motor blew on him.

485 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:20:23am

Looks like we may have more trouble with economic uncertainty with Greece...
Europe: The worst-case scenarios

486 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:21:00am

re: #482 Gus 802

War drums.

Israel taking out Iran?

487 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:22:02am

re: #486 Cannadian Club Akbar

Israel taking out Iran?

Yes. It's going to raise the misery index.

Of course they won't "take out Iran" and neither will it be an invasion. It'll be a specific target. That won't matter though. The oil companies will take advantage of the situation.

488 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:22:22am

re: #486 Cannadian Club Akbar

Israel taking out Iran?

more liek

Merkel Says Future Peace and Prosperity At Stake in Crisis Talks

[Link: www.spiegel.de...]

I'm guessing.

489 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:23:18am

My POS cell phone didn't "fall back". It actually fell forward. Jeezus.

490 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:23:42am

Last year after my car accident I went to a Ford dealership and drove away in a new Escape, the Ford Credit approved my loan in 5 minutes.

I still feel guilty that I did not buy the Hybrid, which I really wanted, but it cost $10,000 more, they did not have one on the lot, and there are no dealer incentives or rebates for the Hybrids.

491 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:23:55am

re: #488 000G

more liek

[Link: www.spiegel.de...]

I'm guessing.

That's part of the joyous layer cake as well.

Happy days are here again! Not. [Sad face.]

492 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:24:18am

re: #489 Cannadian Club Akbar

My POS cell phone didn't "fall back". It actually fell forward. Jeezus.

Your phone is confused.

493 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:25:16am

re: #490 Alouette

I thought you worked for GM

494 Shropshire_Slasher  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:25:27am

re: #490 Alouette

Thats a sharp looking car!

495 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:26:21am

re: #492 RogueOne

Your phone is confused.

Nope. It is 10:26 right now.

496 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:26:31am

re: #493 RogueOne

I thought you worked for GM

I worked for GM 10 years ago, I work at Ford now.

497 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:27:16am

re: #486 Cannadian Club Akbar

Israel taking out Iran?

Seems odd though. Israel typically isn't this public about such plans. Nothing is in writing yet so we'll see. Otherwise I was looking at this. Action or non-action never affected the commodities market though. If they make up their minds that there will be a military strike they'll start pumping up the prices regardless of reality.

498 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:27:27am

re: #495 Cannadian Club Akbar

Nope. It is 10:26 right now.

Now it's 9:27. WTF?

499 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:27:45am

re: #496 Alouette

I have a friend who passed up his family GM discount to buy a new Mustang earlier this year.

500 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:30:09am

re: #497 Gus 802

That was one of the depressing things in talking to that Brad dude. He thought that Israel hard-liners were all gung-ho about us invading Iraq. Israel is, and pretty much always has been, focused on Iran as their big bad. I wonder how much if it is accurate threat assessment, and how much of that is because Iran is ostracized from the rest of the Mid-East states so Israel smacking them around actually endears them to the other states in the region.

501 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:30:37am

Oh, good. My computer didn't reset the time either. Glad all I had to do today was brush my tooth.

502 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:30:45am

Video of pot bust spotlights lapses by police
[Link: articles.philly.com...]

It looked like an open-and-shut case. A cop pulls over a car, walks up to the driver's door, and sees a plastic baggy of marijuana. He brings in a drug-sniffing dog to prove probable cause for a search, gets a warrant, and finds a kilo of weed in the trunk.

That's what Officer Steven Lupo put in his report and testified to in Philadelphia Municipal Court.

Then defense attorney Michael Diamondstein produced the video.

Turned out reality was different.

The video taken from nearby surveillance cameras contradicted key facts in Lupo's report and sworn testimony. Most crucially, Lupo and an unidentified supervisor are seen rummaging through the trunk hours before a warrant was issued. On the witness stand just moments before the video was played, Lupo emphatically denied that had occurred.

After Lupo's testimony was compared against the video, Judge Lydia Y. Kirkland tossed out the case.

Philadelphia's internal affairs investigators are now probing Lupo's conduct, and he will no longer be used as a witness in criminal cases, law enforcement sources said.

The defendant with two pounds of illegal marijuana is free, and defense attorneys say the Lupo video shows what their clients often tell them: Police frequently fudge the facts on the stand.

503 Aye Pod  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:34:37am

re: #477 Obdicut

That's one reason I really like minecraft, reminding us that graphics are not king.

Cool. On the other hand, Skyrim will be out in a few days. The Elder Scrolls series games (from Morrowind onwards) have high standards of artistry with a lot of attention to detail, creating worlds that have real character:

Image: 800px-MW-places-TelAruhn-market.jpg

Image: Ob-Cheydinhal03-Large.jpg

Image: Markarth01.jpg

504 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:36:49am

re: #502 RogueOne

The DA is an idiot. The cops involved are idiots. How the fuck do you not look over evidence before presenting it?

505 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:37:33am

Occupiers Attack The Police - Occupy Atlanta

Three occupiers block and beat on an Atlanta Police Department motorcycle while two other occupiers approach from behind and knock over the officer's vehicle.

Shot on Peachtree Street outside Woodruff Park approximately 11:30pm on 11/05/11

506 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:38:26am

re: #500 Obdicut

That was one of the depressing things in talking to that Brad dude. He thought that Israel hard-liners were all gung-ho about us invading Iraq. Israel is, and pretty much always has been, focused on Iran as their big bad. I wonder how much if it is accurate threat assessment, and how much of that is because Iran is ostracized from the rest of the Mid-East states so Israel smacking them around actually endears them to the other states in the region.

ME politics is almost as complicated as quantum physics. It is so intertwined and contextual beyond belief. Right now the Saudis have been worried about Iran -- for a long time actually. Most of Europe has concerns about Iran. We have sanctions in place but nothing seems to be working. The Iranian political system remains a largely closed entity. It would be so simple if they just opened up their society and we could all live happily ever after. All in all. While the Shah was a bastard what replaced the ruling regime in Iran is no better if not worse in many respects. A toppling of the current political system in Iran is needed.

507 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:40:55am

In other news. My PC sounds like a freight train. Time to make some more coffee.

508 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:41:32am

re: #505 Killgore Trout

I liked my occupy video better

re: #412 RogueOne

Dog - Police Horse Confrontation in OWS:

509 Shropshire_Slasher  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:42:27am

re: #505 Killgore Trout

I hope they made those lovely children pick that 800+ pound bike up.

510 darthstar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:43:10am

Mornin' everyone...it's fucking cold outside. Of course, I'm in a house at 7,000 feet in the Sierras, so it should be cold...

511 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:43:24am

re: #508 RogueOne

I liked my occupy video better

re: #412 RogueOne

I'm oppressed by the cuteness!

512 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:44:35am

Couple years ago there was a irritating phone campaign selling 'extended warranties'.

Telmarketer: "Is your car under warranty?"
Me: "No"
TM: "Could I interest you in our plan?"
Me: "Sure."
TM: "What make and model?"
Me: "'73 Land Rover."
TM: "Oh."

AAA won't give me roadside towing, either.

513 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:44:45am

re: #508 RogueOne

I liked my occupy video better

re: #412 RogueOne

Cute.

514 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:45:24am

re: #503 Jimmah

Yes, but Bethesda are suing Mojang for daring to call their game Scrolls, so fuck them.

And I bet they still have the uncanny valley idiocy of having every character stare deeply into your eyes for the entire conversation. I have no idea why they haven't figured out how that makes all their beautiful character rendering look like total crap. Highway to the Uncanny Valley. The characters don't even move their heads as they talk, it's like they're all wearing invisible neck braces. Vampire Bloodlines had better animation, and that ran out of money and was released massively buggy.

I'll probably eventually pick up Skryim on sale, but, although I enjoyed Oblivion, I only really, really enjoyed it once there were a sufficient number of mods, and even then there were still a shitton of aggravating bugs.

515 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:45:27am

re: #511 Killgore Trout


Hippie dogs are all about the love.

516 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:46:27am

re: #515 RogueOne

Hippie dogs are all about the love.

Maybe. But they bogart the snausages when they're stoned.

517 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:47:05am

re: #515 RogueOne

Hippie dogs are all about the love.

Clearly this is "a crime against nature" in the making.

//

518 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:48:34am

re: #517 Gus 802

Clearly this is "a crime against nature" in the making.

//

Someone is going to have to get the little guy a step ladder. If you think the response you get from hugging a cop is bad, try to mount his mount and see what happens.

519 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:49:52am

re: #518 RogueOne

Someone is going to have to get the little guy a step ladder. If you think the response you get from hugging a cop is bad, try to mount his mount and see what happens.

If Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog can do it so can he. Or she.

//

520 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:50:31am

Speaking of dogs...
LONGVIEW, Wash. -- The Cowlitz County prosecutor has filed charges against two southwest Washington men accused of trying to extort money from the owner of an English bulldog stolen and later found dead.

521 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:50:48am

No Conan Haters™ please.

//

522 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:53:24am

re: #521 Gus 802

Best Conan interview ever:

523 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:53:31am

I would actually like to kidnap Paris Hilton's dog just to watch her cry on TMZ. Does that make me a bad person?
/

524 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:53:37am

Iran bans footballers for 'immoral' goal celebration

Derp.

More bombs in Baghdad (triple blast) and we're still waiting for the IAEA report on Iran.

Good times.

525 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:55:29am

re: #522 Obdicut

Best Conan interview ever:

[Video]

Conan's great.

526 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:56:07am

I was just watching this, oddly appropriate:

Louis CK Punches Dog In The Face To Save Her Life - Conan On TBS

527 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:57:19am

Bank branches vandalized in Portland's Hollywood District

Two Hollywood District bank branches were vandalized, Portland police said Saturday night.

Officers assigned to North Precinct responded Saturday morning to the Chase Bank branch at 4333 N.E. Sandy Boulevard, on the report of vandalism. Officers arrived and learned that sometime overnight bank windows were broken and paint was thrown inside.
...
A group emailed The Oregonian claiming responsibility for the bank vandalism saying “ ...a small part of the 99% decided to strike back at some of the institutions that we hold responsible for the creation of a violent and inequitable world.

"While the General Assembly at Occupy Portland has often criticized effective tactics and favored ineffectual non-confrontational tactics, we want to assert that the Occupy movement is not represented by this and we know already that within Portland there is support by many for tactics which seek to actually confront and challenge those that are responsible for our dire situation.

"So we use action as our discourse rather than words, and we intend to say much more in the days to come."

528 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:58:15am

re: #526 RogueOne

I was just watching this, oddly appropriate:

Louis CK Punches Dog In The Face To Save Her Life - Conan On TBS

[Video]

Lucky Louie if probably just about the only worthwhile thing on TV these days.

529 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:58:25am

re: #527 Killgore Trout

Bank branches vandalized in Portland's Hollywood District

“ ...a small part of the 99% decided to strike back at some of the institutions that we hold responsible for the creation of a violent and inequitable world."

Would that be the 3%?

530 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 6:59:15am

Andy Williams has bladder cancer. Joe Frazier is in a hospice with liver cancer.

531 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:00:03am

re: #529 RogueOne

Would that be the 3%?

The whole 99% thing is becoming a joke. It was a nice slogan at first but it's becoming pretty absurd.

532 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:03:15am

re: #531 Killgore Trout

The whole 99% thing is becoming a joke. It was a nice slogan at first but it's becoming pretty absurd.

That reminds me of a quote I once saw:

I grew up on a farm. I have seen animals having sex in every position imaginable. Goat on chicken. Chicken on goat. Couple of chickens doing a goat, couple of pigs watching. -- Dwight Schrute

533 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:06:45am

re: #527 Killgore Trout

"So we use action as our discourse rather than words, and we intend to say much more in the days to come."

Should think that could go without saying.

534 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:08:12am

Gawker has an actually insightful article about the GOP nominees, voters, and the relationship with the media.

[Link: gawker.com...]

It's a frustrating day for pundits! The political world just wants to see Herman Cain's rapid, painful demise, right now, so we can get on with the business of a "Gingrich surge," which can then be brought to its own rapid, painful demise, leading us to the eventual acceptance of Mitt Romney.

It's probably safe to throw a modest "Perry bump" somewhere in that denouement, too, just because he has lots of money. And maybe a few more people will like Rick Santorum at some point. Ugh.

The point is: These Republican voters are really slowing down the pace of this scripted narrative with their insistence on liking Herman Cain. Why are they being so selfish?

535 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:11:39am

Update on the Vancouver overdose.....
Occupy Vancouver camp unsafe, must end: mayor

Conditions at the camp have led mayoral candidate Suzanne Anton to call for a legal injunction to remove the tents altogether.

"It's not any one thing, but rats, drug overdose, now there's fire safety," Anton said. "If the site can't be safe, there's cost, huge cost to Vancouver taxpayers."

The mayor told reporters he has instructed city officials and the chiefs of the fire and police departments to find a way of removing the encampment peacefully.

"Pushing for an ultimatum or for an intervention has not worked anywhere else," Robertson told CTV News. "It's caused violence and conflict in other cities."

536 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:12:53am

An overdose in Vancouver. Now there's something new.

537 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:13:43am

re: #535 Killgore Trout

Update on the Vancouver overdose...
Occupy Vancouver camp unsafe, must end: mayor

They'll be back, and next time they'll plan the porta-potties.

[Link: gawker.com...]

538 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:17:34am

re: #536 Gus 802

An overdose in Vancouver. Now there's something new.

Next thing you know, a bunch of hipster art school types are going to move in and gentrify the place.

539 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:18:05am

re: #537 Decatur Deb

They'll be back, and next time they'll plan the porta-potties.

[Link: gawker.com...]

There's a money making opportunity

540 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:18:14am

In State Care, 1,200 Deaths and Few Answers

For James Michael Taylor, an evening bath became a death sentence.

Mr. Taylor, who was 41 and a quadriplegic, had little more ability than a newborn baby to lift his head. Bathing him required the constant attention of a staff member at the group home for the developmentally disabled where he lived, near Schenectady, N.Y.

One summer night in 2005, a worker lowered Mr. Taylor into the tub, turned on the water and left the room. Over the next 15 minutes, the water slowly rose over his head. He drowned before anyone returned.

Joan Taylor, his mother, remembers the words her husband said as dirt was shoveled onto their son’s grave.

“This is the last time they’re going to dump on you,” he told his dead son. ..

541 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:19:06am

re: #538 negativ

Next thing you know, a bunch of art school types are going to move in and gentrify the place.

Hardwood floors and vintage appliances.

//

542 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:19:24am

re: #536 Gus 802

Obviously, if Occupy wasn't going on, the overdose wouldn't have occurred. If Fast and Furious hadn't let guns go into Mexico, the Mexican gangsters wouldn't have been able to get guns and would give up on the idea of murder. If you intercept a shipment of cocaine, the addicts will simply accept that they won't be able to get enough cocaine and check into rehab programs. If you have a homeless problem in Golden Gate Park, destroying their encampments, sweeping them out, and giving them fines is a good tactic. Rapists only target people in public parks, preferably crowded ones.

543 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:20:09am

re: #537 Decatur Deb

They'll be back, and next time they'll plan the porta-potties.

[Link: gawker.com...]

They can return after the clean-up, then. The site has rats now, a it really does need to be vacated before it is clean. If some of the protesters don't like that, then they can wait in jail while it is cleaned.

544 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:20:14am

re: #539 RogueOne

There's a money making opportunity

Big Potty Is Shitting on Us.

545 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:20:54am

re: #543 Dark_Falcon

They can return after the clean-up, then. The site has rats now, a it really does need to be vacated before it is clean. If some of the protesters don't like that, then they can wait in jail while it is cleaned.

If they're not idiots, they'll wait until Spring.

546 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:20:57am

re: #544 Decatur Deb

Big Potty is Shitting on Us.

and there's another money making opportunity. That would make a great bumper sticker.

547 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:21:23am

PSA: If you're trying to riot in Vancouver, this might happen.

548 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:21:39am

Eight die as gunmen open fire at Mexico volleyball game
map

Eight people have been killed in an attack by gunmen on a volleyball game in a park in western Mexico, local officials say.

They say at least five others were injured in the attack in Culiacan, the capital of Sinaloa state.

The gunmen arrived with two people with covered faces who pointed out those to be shot, reports say.

No group has said it carried out Friday's attack. The state is the home of the notorious Sinaloa drug cartel.

Sinaloa prosecutor Marco Antonio Higuera said the unidentified gunmen "knew perfectly who they were going to kill", according to the Associated Press news agency...

550 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:24:08am

re: #547 Cannadian Club Akbar

Meanwhile, In Canada:
Image: occupy-canada.jpg

551 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:24:48am

re: #548 Gus 802

Eight die as gunmen open fire at Mexico volleyball game
map

I wonder what mexican drug lords have against volleyball

552 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:25:32am

re: #549 Gus 802

Vancouver Riot Video: Destruction After Boston Bruins Win Stanley Cup

[Video]Jocks.

Hunter and Jordan look so cool in that video!!
///

553 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:27:27am

re: #550 RogueOne

Meanwhile, In Canada:
Image: occupy-canada.jpg

That's so damn depressing.

554 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:28:09am
555 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:29:12am

God, I'm having a harder and harder time shaking these dark moods. I need sunshine. I'm going to go for a walk in central park.

I miss San Francisco. I miss the foghorns hooting deeply in the foggy dawn. I miss the smell of sourdough being baked. I miss the expert skateboarders rushing past me like a flock of starlings. I miss the amazing produce at the farmers market, buying a fresh pepper and just biting into it. I miss seeing one of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence bustling around in a fantastic costume. I miss the hills, the burn in my legs ascending but actually getting somewhere in the end and then getting a new perspective.

New York has things going for it, but I miss San Francisco values. The only place I really feel at home here is in Central Park, and since I'm not a caveman, I can't live there.

556 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:32:33am

re: #555 Obdicut

Oh. It's only early November.

Ask your wife to remove sharp objects and guns from your place in mid-January.

557 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:33:20am

re: #555 Obdicut

God, I'm having a harder and harder time shaking these dark moods. I need sunshine. I'm going to go for a walk in central park.

I miss San Francisco. I miss the foghorns hooting deeply in the foggy dawn. I miss the smell of sourdough being baked. I miss the expert skateboarders rushing past me like a flock of starlings. I miss the amazing produce at the farmers market, buying a fresh pepper and just biting into it. I miss seeing one of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence bustling around in a fantastic costume. I miss the hills, the burn in my legs ascending but actually getting somewhere in the end and then getting a new perspective.

New York has things going for it, but I miss San Francisco values. The only place I really feel at home here is in Central Park, and since I'm not a caveman, I can't live there.

Take the A train up to the Cloisters in Ft. Tryon Park.

558 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:35:11am

re: #553 Decatur Deb

That's so damn depressing.

That kind of national friendliness a little too much for you?// Being that laid back is just wrong.

559 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:35:26am

re: #556 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh. It's only early November.

Ask your wife to remove sharp objects and guns from your place in mid-January.

January sucks. 60 degrees. Brr.

560 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:36:03am

re: #559 Cannadian Club Akbar

January sucks. 60 degrees. Brr.

In the Neck!

561 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:37:17am

re: #558 RogueOne

That kind of national friendliness a little too much for you?// Being that laid back is just wrong.

No, that only an imaginary line separates civilization from assholery.

562 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:38:18am

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy:

Fullerton officer charged in beating death gets big L.A. pension
While with the LAPD, Jay Cicinelli was seriously injured in a shooting and was awarded a lifetime disability pension of 70% of his salary. He later joined the Fullerton department. Now his LAPD pension may be reviewed.
[Link: www.latimes.com...]

563 RogueOne  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:39:39am

I have work to accomplish before the games start. I get to watch ATL beat up on the colts today, yea rah. Enjoy the day people!

564 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:42:26am

re: #542 Obdicut

Obviously, if Occupy wasn't going on, the overdose wouldn't have occurred.

The overdose occurred at a concert that was part of the 'occupation'. Moreover, large concert crowds like that tend to draw dealers, since some people will want to "enhance their experience". So not a straight cause-and-effect, but there's a legitimate link to be made.

If Fast and Furious hadn't let guns go into Mexico, the Mexican gangsters wouldn't have been able to get guns and would give up on the idea of murder.

I don't think many people have made that argument, and frankly its a bit of a strawman. The NRA, which has gone after the Fast and Furious story vociferously, has often in the course of so doing pointed out that the cartels get most of their guns through other sources than purchase within the US. But that does not not negate the fact that F&F was a misbegotten failure that ended up getting a lot of guns into the hands of very bad people.

If you intercept a shipment of cocaine, the addicts will simply accept that they won't be able to get enough cocaine and check into rehab programs.

No argument with you on this one:

565 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:46:04am

Was making breakfast. A Red Baron MW pizza.

566 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:47:45am

Cripes. CBS Sunday Morning blasting in the background. So annoying.

567 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:48:32am

BBL

568 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:53:43am

Mitt Romney being a douche bag:

"There is no way that America can lead the world in jobs, innovation and rising incomes if we divide our nation," Romney said.

"It is united we stand and divided we fall, and a president who is looking to divide the nation and to disparage fellow Americans ... has no right to be the leader of the free world."

569 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:56:13am

re: #555 Obdicut

God, I'm having a harder and harder time shaking these dark moods. I need sunshine. I'm going to go for a walk in central park.

I miss San Francisco. I miss the foghorns hooting deeply in the foggy dawn. I miss the smell of sourdough being baked. I miss the expert skateboarders rushing past me like a flock of starlings. I miss the amazing produce at the farmers market, buying a fresh pepper and just biting into it. I miss seeing one of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence bustling around in a fantastic costume. I miss the hills, the burn in my legs ascending but actually getting somewhere in the end and then getting a new perspective.

New York has things going for it, but I miss San Francisco values. The only place I really feel at home here is in Central Park, and since I'm not a caveman, I can't live there.

Hey, think of it this way: you're not in Detroit.

(I AM in Detroit and I would rather live here than in NY, but I'm weird that way)

570 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:57:12am

Three charged in Penn State sex crime case
By Tom Fontaine, PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Sunday, November 6, 2011
Last updated: 10:02 am

Two top administrators at Penn State University covered up sex crimes committed against children by a former football coach once thought to be the heir apparent to head coach Joe Paterno, the state's top prosecutor said on Saturday.

The Pennsylvania Attorney General's office charged former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky, 67, a Washington County native, with 40 counts related to the sexual abuse of children.

The office accused Athletic Director Tim Curley, 57, and Gary Schultz, 62, the senior vice president for finance and business who oversaw Penn State's police department, with failing to report the suspected crimes to authorities and lying to a grand jury investigating the case.

"The failure of top university officials to act on reports of Sandusky's alleged sexual misconduct, even after it was reported to them in graphic detail by an eyewitness, allowed a predator to walk free for years, continuing to target new victims," said Attorney General Linda Kelly. Schultz and Curley held jobs that require them by law to report accusations of child abuse...

Remarkable.

571 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:57:51am

re: #570 Gus 802

I saw this yesterday. Disgusting.

572 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:57:58am

re: #554 Cannadian Club Akbar

#occupychicago
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Very clever, and even the applications were from right nearby, as there is a McDonald's on the group floor of the CBOT building. It's not open on Sunday, but on other days some protesters do eat there. And that's not an assertion, but something I myself have observed. And well that they should, since McDonald's has worked very hard this year to hire additional people.

Perhaps the CBOT McDonald's should take a page from the Art Deco building it resides within and put up a National Recovery Act Blue Eagle, since they do indeed do their part.

573 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:58:53am

re: #571 Cannadian Club Akbar

I saw this yesterday. Disgusting.

Image: penn-state-jerry-sandusky-430fd621504f2c89.jpg

574 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 7:59:34am

re: #568 Gus 802

Mitt Romney being a douche bag:

"There is no way that America can lead the world in jobs, innovation and rising incomes if we divide our nation," Romney said.

"It is united we stand and divided we fall, and a president who is looking to divide the nation and to disparage fellow Americans ... has no right to be the leader of the free world."

Normal political discourse, nothing to get upset over. The other side is always being 'divisive'. Dog bites man.

575 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:03:14am

re: #574 Dark_Falcon

Normal political discourse, nothing to get upset over. The other side is always being 'divisive'. Dog bites man.

It's bullshit. Romney can go fuck himself.

And like they say. That is all.

576 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:03:56am

re: #575 Gus 802

It's bullshit. Romney can go fuck himself.

And like they say. That is all.

So can Obama.

BBT

577 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:04:33am

re: #576 Dark_Falcon

So can Obama.

BBT

Newflash. Obama won in 2008. He's the president.

578 Lidane  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:05:48am

I've never liked these damn things anyway:

McFib? The Conditions at McDonald's McRib Pork Supplier

579 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:10:20am

Morning all!

We are having another blustery day in the Very Far Western Parts of Chicagoland.

How is everyone?

580 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:10:28am

re: #578 Lidane

Comes as no surprise. Of course, if you treated the animals with kindness and love and respect just before you hit them in the forehead with a bolt gun...

Oh, hell. Those places are knee deep in blood and gore anyway.

581 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:11:08am

re: #568 Gus 802

Mitt Romney being a douche bag:

"There is no way that America can lead the world in jobs, innovation and rising incomes if we divide our nation," Romney said.

"It is united we stand and divided we fall, and a president who is looking to divide the nation and to disparage fellow Americans ... has no right to be the leader of the free world."

Wingnut alert! This piece was written by some Town Hall winger:

Salena Zito is a political analyst, reporter and editorial page columnist. She has also reported on Pennsylvania politics for The Weekly Standard. A board member of the Center for Media & Public Policy at the Heritage Foundation, Salena Zito honed her skills working on the campaigns of George H.W. Bush, Senator Rick Santorum, Bush2000, Bush-Cheney 2004 served on the senate staff of U.S. Senator Arlen Specter. Salena Zito has interviewed one on one Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, CIA Director General Hayden, Homeland Security Director Chertoff, Attorney General Gonzales and First Lady Laura Bush. Zito spends a third of her time on the road interviewing legislators as well as current policy makers.

582 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:12:01am

re: #570 Gus 802

Three charged in Penn State sex crime case
By Tom Fontaine, PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Sunday, November 6, 2011
Last updated: 10:02 am

Remarkable.

Way too much money in college sports, IMHO.

583 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:15:11am

re: #582 ggt

If we really knew how much money universities and colleges really had; we'd puke.

584 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:15:27am

re: #578 Lidane

I've never liked these damn things anyway:

McFib? The Conditions at McDonald's McRib Pork Supplier

One of the creepiest things about that is that pigs are smart enough to know they're living in an abbatoir.

585 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:15:29am

re: #580 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Comes as no surprise. Of course, if you treated the animals with kindness and love and respect just before you hit them in the forehead with a bolt gun...

Oh, hell. Those places are knee deep in blood and gore anyway.

Someone here posted a video of an egg farm. The male chicks are useless. They basically throw them into a grinder. Was pretty gross.

586 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:15:50am

re: #555 Obdicut

God, I'm having a harder and harder time shaking these dark moods. I need sunshine. I'm going to go for a walk in central park.

I miss San Francisco. I miss the foghorns hooting deeply in the foggy dawn. I miss the smell of sourdough being baked. I miss the expert skateboarders rushing past me like a flock of starlings. I miss the amazing produce at the farmers market, buying a fresh pepper and just biting into it. I miss seeing one of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence bustling around in a fantastic costume. I miss the hills, the burn in my legs ascending but actually getting somewhere in the end and then getting a new perspective.

New York has things going for it, but I miss San Francisco values. The only place I really feel at home here is in Central Park, and since I'm not a caveman, I can't live there.

Time to up the meds. I traditionally get an increase in my anti-depressant meds this time of year.

Also, I can go thru a depressive episode once I finish a creative project --like writing. Something about not having the energy that comes from being active creatively.

Try starting a new (non-writing) project. Alphabatize all your books or something. Re-arrange a room. Something physical and mental.

I've lived with depression all my life. You learn little tricks to get you thru.

587 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:16:08am

re: #583 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

If we really knew how much money universities and colleges really had; we'd puke.

Then we should protest the banks!! Wait. What?
///

588 RadicalModerate  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:16:17am

re: #568 Gus 802

Mitt Romney being a douche bag:

"There is no way that America can lead the world in jobs, innovation and rising incomes if we divide our nation," Romney said.

"It is united we stand and divided we fall, and a president who is looking to divide the nation and to disparage fellow Americans ... has no right to be the leader of the free world."

You're expecting anything different from a Richard Mellon Scaife publication's opinion piece? He makes Rupert Murdoch look like the BBC in comparison when it comes to biased news.

Hint: This is the asshole who spent the better part of the 1990s claiming that Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster, and was the orchestrator of most of the conspiracy-laden crap that included Whitewater, Mena, Arkansas' secret CIA base, and funded the whole Paula Jones smear campaign.

589 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:16:39am

re: #582 ggt

Way too much money in college sports, IMHO.

Most of the labor is free.

590 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:17:00am

re: #583 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

If we really knew how much money universities and colleges really had; we'd puke.

They big ones even have real estate interests on a global scale. I looked one up once. It was bizarre.

591 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:17:14am

re: #584 jaunte

One of the creepiest things about that is that pigs are smart enough to know they're living in an abbatoir.

If you ever get a chance to read "The Pig Who Sang to the Moon", do so. It's beautifully written.

592 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:18:15am

Racial politics return with Cain allegations

Herman Cain's rise as a presidential contender was supposed to prove that race didn't matter in the Republican Party. Cain is fast making it the only thing that does.

The black conservative is trying to navigate around allegations that he sexually harassed at least three women, implying that the accusations surfaced because he is black. Hours after the claims were reported, Cain's supporters branded his trouble a "high-tech lynching." That's the term coined 20 years ago by another black conservative, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, after his confirmation hearings for the court were rocked by allegations of sexual harassment.

There is one thing lacking in Cain's allegations of a 'high tech lynching' and 'they don't like me because I'm black,' and in the general right wing accusation that criticism of Cain is because he's black.

Evidence. There is not one whit of it.

This is essentially a childish retort to the accusations of racism towards the right wing. The difference? There was evidence of that.

593 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:19:20am

re: #592 BigPapa

Racial politics return with Cain allegations

There is one thing lacking in Cain's allegations of a 'high tech lynching' and 'they don't like me because I'm black,' and in the general right wing accusation that criticism of Cain is because he's black.

Evidence. There is not one whit of it.

This is essentially a childish retort to the accusations of racism towards the right wing. The difference? There was evidence of that.

In the end, it will be Cain giving Romney a "run for his money". It's a dog and pony show.

594 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:19:23am

re: #592 BigPapa

Racial politics return with Cain allegations

There is one thing lacking in Cain's allegations of a 'high tech lynching' and 'they don't like me because I'm black,' and in the general right wing accusation that criticism of Cain is because he's black.

Evidence. There is not one whit of it.

This is essentially a childish retort to the accusations of racism towards the right wing. The difference? There was evidence of that.

Return? Republicans and right wingers have been engaged in racial politics since Obama hit the scene.

595 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:20:38am

re: #594 Gus 802

Return? Republicans and right wingers have been engaged in racial politics since Obama hit the scene.

Actually well before that. See Lee Atwater, et al.

596 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:20:39am

Any financial Lizards on-line now?

I have a question.

597 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:20:47am

re: #555 Obdicut

Dude, take care of yourself. I know you will, but I'm just sayin.

598 RadicalModerate  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:22:30am

re: #594 Gus 802

Return? Republicans and right wingers have been engaged in racial politics since Obama hit the scene neoConfederates joined their party as part of the Southern Strategy.

fixed.

599 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:23:06am

re: #555 Obdicut

God, I'm having a harder and harder time shaking these dark moods. I need sunshine. I'm going to go for a walk in central park.

I miss San Francisco. I miss the foghorns hooting deeply in the foggy dawn. I miss the smell of sourdough being baked. I miss the expert skateboarders rushing past me like a flock of starlings. I miss the amazing produce at the farmers market, buying a fresh pepper and just biting into it. I miss seeing one of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence bustling around in a fantastic costume. I miss the hills, the burn in my legs ascending but actually getting somewhere in the end and then getting a new perspective.

New York has things going for it, but I miss San Francisco values. The only place I really feel at home here is in Central Park, and since I'm not a caveman, I can't live there.

Tried Upstate yet?

600 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:23:34am

re: #598 RadicalModerate

fixed.

Addendum to the addendum:

Return? Republicans and right wingers have been engaged in racial politics since Obama hit the scene neo Confederates joined their party as part of the Southern Strategy.

Nothing "neo" about them. ;)

601 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:24:41am

re: #594 Gus 802

Return? Republicans and right wingers have been engaged in racial politics since Obama hit the scene.

Yah, I don't know if it ever left. So the title is not necessarily correct, but maybe that was the editor.

The rest of the story was pretty compelling and made some good points.

Black conservative commentator Armstrong Williams, who worked for Thomas when he headed the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, said some Republicans are put off by Cain's claims of racism because they hate it when they are accused of being racist.

"Why is the first response from some conservatives that this must have to do with Cain's race? That makes them guilty of the same race-baiting we accuse Democrats of," Williams said.

Upding Armstrong.

602 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:24:48am

re: #592 BigPapa

Sounds like he protests too much.

He maligned Obama's mixed-race identity, saying the president "has never been part of the black experience in America" and that Democrats are "doubly scared that a real black man might run against Barack Obama."

603 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:27:31am

re: #594 Gus 802

Return? Republicans and right wingers have been engaged in racial RACIST politics since Obama hit the scene.

After some thought.

604 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:28:14am

re: #578 Lidane

I've never liked these damn things anyway:

McFib? The Conditions at McDonald's McRib Pork Supplier

I bought one once.

It was the most disgusting "culinary" experience I ever had.

605 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:29:01am

re: #602 jaunte

Sounds like he protests race baits too much.

Cain is very clever, but he believes he's more clever than he actually is. So I expect him to continue to me WTF? comments.

Saying that Obama wasn't black enough but liberals are afraid of a real black man is just stupid. I'd like him to explain that a little deeper. But we won't get that chance, not in today's soundbyte arena.

606 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:30:31am

Kind of surprised no one noticed this. If anyone said that about "W" we'd never hear the end of it. Apparently some flip-flopping citizen running for nomination as a presidential candidate is now equal to a sitting president.

607 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:31:43am

re: #604 000G

I bought one once.

It was the most disgusting "culinary" experience I ever had.

The McRib is marketing genius. Instead of putting it on the menu, put it out twice a year. Brings people in and if they have someone with them that doesn't like it, they'll order something else.

608 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:33:18am

re: #601 BigPapa

I never thought I'd see the day I would agree with anything Armstrong Williams had to say.
By the way, didn't be get into some trouble over being paid by Big tobacco as well as for promoting NCLB?
Did they throw him under the bus, or is he still cool with the GOP?

609 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:34:13am

re: #606 Gus 802

Kind of surprised no one noticed this. If anyone said that about "W" we'd never hear the end of it. Apparently some flip-flopping citizen running for nomination as a presidential candidate is now equal to a sitting president.

The office of President is only to be respected when your guy is in it, I guess is what that may mean.

But I read it as 'Obama can go fuck himself.' But he left so I gave no response.

610 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:35:42am

The whole part about "having no right" was moronic of Romney. Should have said "should not be".

611 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:36:21am

re: #608 OhNoZombies!

I never thought I'd see the day I would agree with anything Armstrong Williams had to say.
By the way, didn't be get into some trouble over being paid by Big tobacco as well as for promoting NCLB?
Did they throw him under the bus, or is he still cool with the GOP?

His name is very familiar. I might have heard him on AM once or twice, or read an article. Your recollections may be correct, I don't know.

His comment in the article were pretty good though.

612 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:36:43am

I'm sorry, but I hear dog whistles when Romney says "...Obama has no right..."

613 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:39:30am

re: #610 000G

The whole part about "having no right" was moronic of Romney. Should have said "should not be".

Exactly. Because if Romney won in 2012 he would have a right to be "leader of the free world" (whatever that means). Just as Bush "had a right", Obama "has a right."

It wasn't a mistake though on Romney's part. This is what he truly thinks and reflects the mindset of the right wing.

614 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:40:59am

re: #608 OhNoZombies!

Interesting take on Armstrong Williams.

Time for the cup of dark black sunshine that is coffee.

615 makeitstop  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:41:19am

re: #612 OhNoZombies!

I'm sorry, but I hear dog whistles when Romney says "...Obama has no right..."

I can't wait until Romney gets the nomination and Obama can go to work on him. He is in what you call a 'target-rich environment.'

The 'he has no core' quote from David Plouffe will be just the start, and they can work down the list of Romney flip-flops and contradictions from there.

The ads, as they say, will write themselves.

616 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:41:27am

re: #612 OhNoZombies!

I'm sorry, but I hear dog whistles when Romney says "...Obama has no right..."

Ditto. I was thinking the same thing.

The subtext:

[Obama] has no right to be the leader of the free world because he's a black man.

It's just like "states rights".

617 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:42:05am

re: #609 BigPapa

The office of President is only to be respected when your guy is in it, I guess is what that may mean.

But I read it as 'Obama can go fuck himself.' But he left so I gave no response.

I read it as disgust with both parties and government as a whole.

618 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:43:49am

re: #615 makeitstop

I can't wait ! I wish they'd just pick a nominee already.

619 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:44:00am

Oklahoma Earthquake

620 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:49:26am

Breivik welcomes courtroom decision

Oslo District Court announced its intent, Thursday, to hold the trial in a room that will only hold 200 people.

Defence lawyer Geir Lippestad said to Dagbladet “He [Breivik] is comfortable with the decision. He was fearful of having to sit in front of thousands of people and give evidence. He believes it will be easier in a small room."

The perpetrator’s next remand hearing will take place on Monday 14th November. He will speak to the court via a video link from his cell in lla prison.

This decision was made due to the costs of transporting Breivik to court and to ensure the safety of those inside the building.

[Link: theforeigner.no...]

621 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:51:19am

I see Buck's throwing another hissey fit.

622 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:52:15am

re: #621 Gus 802

I see Buck's throwing another hissey fit.

I looked at his karma the other day just out of curiosity. D'oh!!

623 wee fury  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:53:21am

Back from long trip. Much catching up to do.

624 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:53:33am
625 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:55:14am

re: #606 Gus 802

The left hated W, but there is no comparison the the vitriol Being slung at Obama.
I mean I understand partisanship, but I didn't dislike RWers till they started questioning my patriotism because I didn't agree with some framing chicken-hawks.

626 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 8:57:43am

re: #625 OhNoZombies!

The left hated W, but there is no comparison the the vitriol Being slung at Obama.
I mean I understand partisanship, but I didn't dislike RWers till they started questioning my patriotism because I didn't agree with some framing chicken-hawks.

And this goes beyond mere right wingers. This is presidential candidate for the Republican Party. Could you imagine the response if a Democratic Party candidate had said that Bush "had no right" to be "leader of the free world" back in 2008? I mean save Kucinich perhaps (who didn't say anything like that as far as I remember). Romney's supposed to represent the Republican mainstream. And he says shit like this?

627 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:00:10am

Well what do you know. The Fort Collins arson suspect, Benjamin David Gilmore, is a Ron Paul supporter.

You know. Ron Paul the TEXAS REPUBLICAN congressman.

Guess that makes Gilmore a Republican.

//No true Scotsman!

//

628 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:00:13am

re: #626 Gus 802

And he knows exactly who this appeals to, as does anyone else.
Obama is divisive...OK...

629 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:05:43am

re: #625 OhNoZombies!

The left hated W, but there is no comparison the the vitriol Being slung at Obama.

I wholly agree with that. Even though I labeled myself and voted conservative through from Clinton->Bush->Obama, there has been an ever increasing level of vitriol. I was even turned off by the incessant Clinton Derangement, felt it turn up for Bush, but this level now is by an order of magnitude worse.

Quite simply, I think it's because of the advent of technology that removes social mores related to discourse. Oh, and Obama is black.

630 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:05:55am

Tunisian constitution will make no place for faith

Reuters) - Tunisia's Islamist-led government will focus on democracy, human rights and a free-market economy in planned changes to the constitution, effectively leaving religion out of the text it will draw up, party leaders said.

Oklahomans 'startled.'

631 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:06:45am

re: #629 BigPapa

Absolutely.

632 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:09:35am

re: #630 jaunte

Tunisian constitution will make no place for faith

Oklahomans 'startled.'

Well I'll be damned. On Tunisia that is.

633 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:10:44am

“It’s time for the wealthy to pay their fair share before the middle class becomes the forgotten class. And it’s time for the banks to give back what they were given. There are those in politics, particularly those on the conservative side, who can’t get enough of telling people that the wealthy one per cent must not be taxed because doing so kills jobs. The real job-killers are corporate greed and political expediency. It’s time for working people in Maine and all across the country to take back the American dream.” -- Stephen King

634 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:10:57am

re: #592 BigPapa

Racial politics return with Cain allegations

Haha like they ever went away.

635 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:11:41am

Good for Tunesia.
Obama=Sekrit Moozlim=Sharia Law

636 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:12:28am

re: #610 000G

The whole part about "having no right" was moronic of Romney. Should have said "should not be".

Moronic, but revealing, and useful.

637 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:13:47am

re: #634 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I thought you knew, Cain is the only black guy running for Prez...er..wait...
//

638 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:14:49am

re: #613 Gus 802

Exactly. Because if Romney won in 2012 he would have a right to be "leader of the free world" (whatever that means). Just as Bush "had a right", Obama "has a right."

It wasn't a mistake though on Romney's part. This is what he truly thinks and reflects the mindset of the right wing.

And people wonder why I don't think conservatives are trustworthy when the topic is the rights of others. Doesn't even matter what "others" are the topic: rw'ers truly believe they and only they are privy to any "rights".

2nd class citizenship, for all others.

639 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:17:54am

re: #637 OhNoZombies!

I thought you knew, Cain is the only black guy running for Prez...er..wait...
//

I do find it hilarious to watch Confederate enablers suddenly become so concerned about race (Cain) and gender (Palin). They will parrot the same repeated lines over and over and over as if they are true.

640 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:18:42am

re: #443 Cannadian Club Akbar

Biebers fans react to the news that he got someone pregnant. These bitches are fucking nuts.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

I think these bitches are mostly twelve. And sure, a couple bubbles off plumb, but that's just puberty for you.

641 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:21:23am

re: #500 Obdicut

That was one of the depressing things in talking to that Brad dude. He thought that Israel hard-liners were all gung-ho about us invading Iraq. Israel is, and pretty much always has been, focused on Iran as their big bad. I wonder how much if it is accurate threat assessment, and how much of that is because Iran is ostracized from the rest of the Mid-East states so Israel smacking them around actually endears them to the other states in the region.

No one will come to Iran's defense. Also, of course, Hezbollah. It's a somewhat different dynamic than the Arab states.

642 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:21:23am

re: #384 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Seems that, perhaps, Cain may take a hit in the polls after all:

Cain's favorability drops after sex accusations: poll

It could be over the accusations, or it could be over something else. There's no way in h.e.doubletoothpicks the GOP is going to put Confederate McRighty in the spot of electing Herman Cain (R - Black) or Barack Obama (D - Black).

643 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:21:48am

re: #633 Gus 802

And it’s time for the banks to give back what they were given.

Chris Hedges:

Goldman Sachs, which received more subsidies and bailout-related funds than any other investment bank because the Federal Reserve permitted it to become a bank holding company under its “emergency situation,” has used billions in taxpayer money to enrich itself and reward its top executives. It handed its senior employees a staggering $18 billion in 2009, $16 billion in 2010 and $10 billion in 2011 in mega-bonuses. This massive transfer of wealth upwards by the Bush and Obama administrations, now estimated at $13 trillion to $14 trillion, went into the pockets of those who carried out fraud and criminal activity rather than the victims who lost their jobs, their savings and often their homes.

644 Interesting Times  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:23:36am

re: #568 Gus 802

Mitt Romney being a douche bag:

"It is united we stand and divided we fall, and a president who is looking to divide the nation and to disparage fellow Americans ... has no right to be the leader of the free world."

Oh look, another spineless, unprincipled GOP douchenozzle achieving IMAX-quality levels of projection 9_9 Take the beam out of thine own eye, Mitt-Flopper.

645 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:23:58am

re: #643 jaunte

Chris Hedges:

Hey. That's weird. I just started listening to him on Dangerous Minds.

646 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:24:52am

BRB

647 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:26:27am

re: #646 Gus 802

BRB

OK. Never mind. Did a quick check on Hedges. Not my cup of tea overall.

648 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:27:38am

How will Sharia and the impending communist socialist state reconcile?

649 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:27:51am

re: #647 Gus 802

I was surprised at the bonus totals.

650 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:30:45am

re: #649 jaunte

I was surprised at the bonus totals.

Yeah. It's astronomical. I thought it was high but didn't realize it was this high. I'm, not surprised that Obama is "working with them" though. That writing was always on the wall though. You can't become president in this country if you don't work with the plutocracy. That's the nature of the beast. Of course this does highlight the absurd notion that Obama is splitting the nation so to speak. On the one hand he does seem to be a populist of sorts but the still maintains the status quo with regards to the big (giant) money interests that run not only this nation but the world.

651 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:32:16am

bbl

652 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:32:42am

I Retweeted it anyway even though Hedges thinks we atheists are big bad people. ;)

653 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:33:30am

re: #650 Gus 802

It's surprising to me that our government doesn't have any more control over the use of bail-out funds than to let them just be passed through to enrich the management of a bank which would have failed without the injection of cash.

654 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:33:40am

re: #555 Obdicut

God, I'm having a harder and harder time shaking these dark moods. I need sunshine. I'm going to go for a walk in central park.

I miss San Francisco. I miss the foghorns hooting deeply in the foggy dawn. I miss the smell of sourdough being baked. I miss the expert skateboarders rushing past me like a flock of starlings. I miss the amazing produce at the farmers market, buying a fresh pepper and just biting into it. I miss seeing one of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence bustling around in a fantastic costume. I miss the hills, the burn in my legs ascending but actually getting somewhere in the end and then getting a new perspective.

New York has things going for it, but I miss San Francisco values. The only place I really feel at home here is in Central Park, and since I'm not a caveman, I can't live there.

I fully understand San Francisco Exile Blues, but you are being seen by a competent professional person for stuff like SAD and depression and such, right?

((Obdi))

655 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:36:26am

re: #653 jaunte

It's surprising to me that our government doesn't have any more control over the use of bail-out funds than to let them just be passed through to enrich the management of a bank which would have failed without the injection of cash.

I forgot the rules they used. But a lot of it is masked in almost "national security" type language. I'd have to look that up. But there's a ton of confidentiality clauses in TARP. Some of which will require a FOIA request in the coming years to get full transparency. Of course by then the information will only be for historical purposes. It's rather shocking that this supposed free nation has so much that's kept secret from its people.

656 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:36:26am

re: #640 SanFranciscoZionist

There's nothing more terrifying than an adolescent girl whose hopes of one day marrying the love of their life have been dashed by another 'woman.'

657 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:38:06am

re: #605 BigPapa

Cain is very clever, but he believes he's more clever than he actually is. So I expect him to continue to me WTF? comments.

Saying that Obama wasn't black enough but liberals are afraid of a real black man is just stupid. I'd like him to explain that a little deeper. But we won't get that chance, not in today's soundbyte arena.

As I know I've mentioned, Phyllis Chesler did a very weird piece about how Obama just got elected because of white liberal guilt, and to defeat him, we need to run a black woman, ha ha, because even more white liberal guilt.

(The fact that a well-respected second wave feminist elder is doing this raises my hair, but WTH.)

I think this kind of thinking is being taken seriously as a strategic move, but rather than a woman, they've gone with the idea that if they can get a candidate who's even more 'authentically' black than Obama...SOMETHING will have to happen. The liberals will have to vote for him, or be exposed as racists. All the black people will become Republicans. SOMETHING will have to give.

658 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:39:00am

re: #621 Gus 802

I see Buck's throwing another hissey fit.

What's Buck mad about now?

659 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:39:07am

re: #647 Gus 802

I find him really annoying.

660 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:40:52am

re: #658 SanFranciscoZionist

What's Buck mad about now?

Everything it seems. He was going back and forth between a number of threads.

661 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:40:57am

re: #656 OhNoZombies!

There's nothing more terrifying than an adolescent girl whose hopes of one day marrying the love of their life have been dashed by another 'woman.'

The tweets I saw seem supportive of Selena Gomez though. ("This not only affects Justin, but she made Selena SAD!! I could kill her!!")

662 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:43:36am

re: #661 SanFranciscoZionist

Well of course! They're the prefect couple...

663 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:45:37am

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
31 CFR Part 31
RIN 1505-AC05
TARP Conflicts of Interest
AGENCY: Departmental Offices, Treasury.
ACTION: Interim rule.

Sec. 31.217 Confidentiality of information.

(a) Nonpublic information defined. Any information that Treasury
provides to a retained entity under an arrangement, or that the
retained entity obtains or develops pursuant to the arrangement, shall
be deemed nonpublic until the Treasury determines otherwise in writing,
or the information becomes part of the body of public information from
a source other than the retained entity.
(b) Prohibitions. The retained entity shall not:
(1) Disclose nonpublic information to anyone except as required to
perform the retained entity's obligations pursuant to the arrangement,
or pursuant to a lawful court order or valid subpoena after giving
prior notice to Treasury.
(2) Use or allow the use of any nonpublic information to further
any private interest other than as contemplated by the arrangement.
(c) Retained entity's responsibility. A retained entity shall take
appropriate measures to ensure the confidentiality of nonpublic
information and to prevent its inappropriate use. The retained entity
shall document these measures in sufficient detail to demonstrate
compliance, and shall maintain this documentation for three years after
the arrangement has terminated. The retained entity shall notify the
TARP Chief Compliance Officer in writing within five business days of
detecting a violation of the prohibitions in paragraph (b), above. The
security measures required by this paragraph shall include:
(1) Security measures to prevent unauthorized access to facilities
and storage containers where nonpublic information is stored.
(2) Security measures to detect and prevent unauthorized access to
computer equipment and data storage devices that store or transmit
nonpublic information.
(3) Periodic training to ensure that persons receiving nonpublic
information know their obligation to maintain its confidentiality and
to use it only for purposes contemplated by the arrangement.
(4) Programs to ensure compliance with federal securities laws,
including laws relating to insider trading, when the arrangement
relates to the acquisition, valuation, management, or disposition of
troubled assets.
(5) A certification from each management official performing work
under the arrangement and each key individual stating that he or she
will comply with the requirements in section 31.217(b). The retained
entity shall obtain this certification, in the form of a nondisclosure
agreement, before a management official or key individual performs work
under the arrangement, and then annually thereafter.

664 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:46:44am

Mariah Yeater tried to ruin @justinbieber's happiness about his new album! Cruel bitch! I don't normally cuss but she pushed me too far!

665 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:47:06am

U.S. Office of the SIGTARP : FOIA

SIGTARP’s mission is to advance economic stability by promoting the efficiency and effectiveness of TARP management, through transparency, through coordinated oversight, and through robust enforcement against those, whether inside or outside of Government, who waste, steal or abuse TARP funds.

Transparency
Promoting transparency in the management and operation of TARP is one of SIGTARP’s primary roles. Through EESA, the American taxpayer has been asked to fund - to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars - an unprecedented effort to stabilize the financial system and promote economic recovery; in this context, the public has a right to know how that money is being spent. Transparency is a powerful tool to ensure that all those managing TARP funds will act appropriately, consistent with the law and in the best interests of the country.

Coordinated Oversight
SIGTARP plays a vital role in promoting the economy and efficiency in the management of TARP and views its oversight role both prospectively (by advising TARP managers on issues relating to internal controls and oversight, for example) and retrospectively (by assessing the effectiveness of TARP activities over time and suggesting improvements and making recommendations for positive change). SIGTARP also closely coordinates its oversight activities with the other TARP oversight bodies to ensure maximum oversight coverage and to avoid redundant and unduly burdensome requests.

Robust Enforcement
SIGTARP’s third primary role is to prevent, detect and investigate cases of fraud, waste and abuse of TARP funds and programs. SIGTARP, through its own investigative resources and through partnership with other relevant law enforcement agencies, is committed to robust criminal and civil enforcement against those, whether inside or outside of Government, who waste, steal or abuse TARP funds.

666 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:47:34am

And of course. Good luck with all that.

667 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:50:13am

Meanwhile back on the farm. SIGTARP is criticizing Treasury's HAMP program. That it will fail to reach 600K homeowners.

668 darthstar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:52:05am

Another muslim terror plot averted.

Four Georgia men who belonged to a “fringe militia group” were arrested by FBI agents on Tuesday and charged with plotting an attack against U.S. citizens and federal employees using the biological toxin ricin.

Authorities say 73-year-old Frederick Thomas of Cleveland; 67-year-old Dan Roberts; 65-year-old Ray H. Adams; and 68-year-old Samuel J. Crump, all of Toccoa, Ga. began meeting in March 2011 as part of a covert group that called itself, well, the “covert group.”

Wait...they're just good ole boys from Georgia. I guess it wasn't a terror plot after all...oh, and they're inspiration for the plot is a regular Fox News contributor...like that's a surprise.

669 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:52:25am

re: #660 Gus 802

Everything it seems. He was going back and forth between a number of threads.

I like that Herman Cain brings out this kind of cognitive dissonance in rightwingers. I think it's hilarious.

670 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:52:32am

And the short end of the stick so to speak.

Capital-strapped community banks struggle to repay TARP

Perhaps the "Bank Transfer Day" movement might help create more capital for smaller banks.

671 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:52:55am

Another Texas death-row DNA story

Hank Skinner has been pleading with the state since 2001 — to no avail — to test DNA evidence he believes will prove his innocence. On Wednesday, he is set to walk into the execution chamber in Huntsville to face the ultimate punishment for three murders that he maintains he did not commit.
.....
In an interview this week, Ellis said he doesn’t understand how the court could continue to deny Skinner’s request, which he said fits squarely within the category his recent legislation aimed to address.

But last week, without explanation, the trial court in Gray County did just that. Skinner’s lawyers have appealed yet again, hoping the state Court of Criminal Appeals will agree that the Legislature has removed enough barriers to finally allow DNA tests before he is executed.

672 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:54:31am

re: #668 darthstar

Another muslim terror plot averted.

Wait...they're just good ole boys from Georgia. I guess it wasn't a terror plot after all...oh, and they're inspiration for the plot is a regular Fox News contributor...like that's a surprise.

You just saw this? Yeah it even comes with Confederate lunatics and senior citizens.

Meet The Senior Citizen Militia Members Arrested In Georgia Bio Attack Plot

673 darthstar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:55:39am

re: #672 Gus 802

You just saw this? Yeah it even comes with Confederate lunatics and senior citizens.

Meet The Senior Citizen Militia Members Arrested In Georgia Bio Attack Plot

I'm up in Lake Tahoe this weekend...been offline most of it. Got an hour or two of downtime before having to go back to the mountain.

674 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:55:53am

Still no power in my neighborhood ... We are approaching 8 full days now. I'm sitting outside because it is warmer in the sun than it is in the house.

675 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:57:33am

re: #674 _RememberTonyC

Still no power in my neighborhood ... We are approaching 8 full days now. I'm sitting outside because it is warmer in the sun than it is in the house.

Omg.

676 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:57:37am

re: #670 Gus 802

And the short end of the stick so to speak.

Capital-strapped community banks struggle to repay TARP

Perhaps the "Bank Transfer Day" movement might help create more capital for smaller banks.

Maybe, it might help some but....

According to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., 326 of the 392 bank failures in the U.S. since 2008 have been community banks.

It's one of the dangers in the "move your money" thing. These smaller banks are much more likely to fail. I'm pretty sure most small banks are covered by fdic but it's something people should check before moving to a small bank.

677 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:58:36am

re: #676 Killgore Trout

Maybe, it might help some but...

It's one of the dangers in the "move your money" thing. These smaller banks are much more likely to fail. I'm pretty sure most small banks are covered by fdic but it's something people should check before moving to a small bank.

I thought about that. Although I'm also wondering if credit unions aren't stronger than small banks.

678 Kronocide  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 9:58:58am

What right wing violence?

679 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:00:29am

Yeehaw! Financial infighting...

NCUA Faults Goldman Sachs with Credit Union Failures

The National Credit Union Administration (NCUA) filed a lawsuit against Goldman Sachs & Co. in hopes of recovering losses it incurred as the result of two failed credit unions – U.S. Central and Western Corporate federal credit unions.

680 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:00:31am

re: #677 Gus 802

Credit Union deposits are insured by the National Credit Union Administration.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

681 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:00:47am

The world is like an onion.

682 blueraven  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:01:10am

re: #676 Killgore Trout

Maybe, it might help some but...

It's one of the dangers in the "move your money" thing. These smaller banks are much more likely to fail. I'm pretty sure most small banks are covered by fdic but it's something people should check before moving to a small bank.

All of these bank closures are protected by the FDIC. Generally they close on Friday and open up Monday under a new name...business as usual.

683 jaunte  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:02:50am

re: #679 Gus 802

“Because the mortgages in the pools collateralizing the RMBS were largely underwritten without adherence to the underwriting standards in the Offering Documents, the RMBS were significantly riskier than represented in the Offering Documents,” the NCUA stated in a court filing.

Oops.

684 darthstar  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:05:26am

Okay...this doesn't surprise me one bit.

And I like that it has a guide to the Underground on the back cover.

685 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:07:01am

What really annoys me about Romney's statement is the absolute, shameless hypocrisy of it.

He's flat-out saying Obama has no right to be the President. And he's saying that's because he's divisive.

Well, what is saying that a President, duly elected under law, has no right to be president? Isn't that divisive?

This is why, for all the things I could fault Obama for, I have difficulty really criticizing him. He already gets such a fucking torrential tirade of stupid, creepy, insane abuse. The extent to which he has not lashed back speaks to enormous restraint on his part. The only consolation is that restraint and humility must frustrate his opponents to no end-- thus their hypocritical cries that he's vain and arrogant.

686 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:07:48am

And thanks to everyone who said nice things. I think I'm coming down with a cold and that's screwing me up more than usual.

On the positive side, I'm down to 180 pounds from a height of 200, so I'm no longer technically overweight.

687 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:12:09am

re: #686 Obdicut

I'm getting over walking pneumonia, so I understand.
Also, I know where your missing weight went...

688 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:16:43am

re: #625 OhNoZombies!

The left hated W, but there is no comparison the the vitriol Being slung at Obama.
I mean I understand partisanship, but I didn't dislike RWers till they started questioning my patriotism because I didn't agree with some framing chicken-hawks.

It is galling. It is hard to pin them down on why they can assume this. They have some vague references to the hippies in the 1970's.

689 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:25:49am

re: #686 Obdicut

And thanks to everyone who said nice things. I think I'm coming down with a cold and that's screwing me up more than usual.

On the positive side, I'm down to 180 pounds from a height of 200, so I'm no longer technically overweight.

Do you ever do tanning booths?

690 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:27:18am

re: #643 jaunte

Chris Hedges:

[Link: www.nationofchange.org...]

691 justaminute  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:29:19am

My husband is in Iran right now. I talked to him after we had our earthquake in OK. He said something surprising to me. He said from talking to people in Iran that their attitude is changing. They are starting to acknowledge that the Iranian Government has been so brutal in its suppression tactics that people have given up any hope of being able to overthrow them their selves. They said that they understand our worries but please don't kill them in trying to get rid of their government. But they now acknowledge the world's need to get rid of their government and they are starting to welcome it. Color me surprised.

692 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:31:29am

re: #653 jaunte

It's surprising to me that our government doesn't have any more control over the use of bail-out funds than to let them just be passed through to enrich the management of a bank which would have failed without the injection of cash.

Because, see, the alternative to the taxpayers and the public at large getting screwed over by the tocix TBTF banks is nationalizing those banks. OMG SOCIALISM!

693 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:32:09am
694 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:35:25am

re: #685 Obdicut

What really annoys me about Romney's statement is the absolute, shameless hypocrisy of it.

He's flat-out saying Obama has no right to be the President. And he's saying that's because he's divisive.

Well, what is saying that a President, duly elected under law, has no right to be president? Isn't that divisive?
.

It's personally and deepy insulting to me.

I voted for Obama. So did an AWFUL lot of other Americans. More of us liked him than liked the other guy. So he gets to be President.

This is not 'divisive', unless you decide that Americans who didn't vote for Obama have no obligation to accept him as president. I did not like George W. Bush. I did not vote for him. I'm not even sure that the Supreme Court decided justly when they gave him his first term. However, he was president, and while I disapproved of most of what he did, I would never have said he did not deserve to be president because he was 'divisive'.

What Romney says boils down to, "If someone my side doesn't like, we will scream and yell and behave badly, so isn't it better to elect someone we like, so we'll give y'all a break?"

Which is a hop, skip and a jump away from, "Vote Republican, or we'll fuck you up."

695 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:35:28am

re: #685 Obdicut

What really annoys me about Romney's statement is the absolute, shameless hypocrisy of it.

He's flat-out saying Obama has no right to be the President. And he's saying that's because he's divisive.

Well, what is saying that a President, duly elected under law, has no right to be president? Isn't that divisive?

This is why, for all the things I could fault Obama for, I have difficulty really criticizing him. He already gets such a fucking torrential tirade of stupid, creepy, insane abuse. The extent to which he has not lashed back speaks to enormous restraint on his part. The only consolation is that restraint and humility must frustrate his opponents to no end-- thus their hypocritical cries that he's vain and arrogant.

Any non-conservative outside their control is vain and arrogant -- which is to say, most people in the world. Social caveat: the darker and unconforming the non-con, the more vain/arrogant, and the deeper the conservative resentments against that person.

696 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:35:35am

re: #675 Stanley Sea

Omg.

I'm feeling very "third world" right about now :(

697 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:35:44am

re: #689 Gus 802

Do you ever do tanning booths?

It's really not the seasonal stuff. It's actually a gorgeous, gorgeous day out here. I think GGT had the right of it; I just finished my book, and now I'm kind of deflated. I need another creative project to lift me up. I may even just start writing again soon.

698 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:36:30am

re: #671 jaunte

Another Texas death-row DNA story

Eggs, omelette.

699 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:36:38am

LOL

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Oh brother.

700 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:36:56am

re: #696 _RememberTonyC

I'm feeling very "third world" right about now :(

It totally sucks, dude. You're really bearing up very well under it. I'd be happy to share a bomb shelter with you.

701 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:37:57am

re: #697 Obdicut

It's really not the seasonal stuff. It's actually a gorgeous, gorgeous day out here. I think GGT had the right of it; I just finished my book, and now I'm kind of deflated. I need another creative project to lift me up. I may even just start writing again soon.

Speaking from personal experience, there's nothing like being active, getting in little accomplishments continuously, no matter how small if just somehow significant, to beat back depression.

702 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:39:02am

re: #701 000G

It seems really unfair, since I just finished a goddamn novel. But depression is a monkey on your back. Oh well. At least it leaves me never resting on my laurels.

703 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:40:02am

re: #676 Killgore Trout

These smaller banks are much more likely to fail.

Well, d'uh, since they are not big enough to not fail.

You have to earn your status of TBTF. But once you get there, you can coast.

704 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:40:15am

re: #695 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Sometimes though, I think they have more resentment for white people voting for Obama since they did it out of misguided "white guilt."
Blacks just voted for him cause we're racist.

705 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:41:58am

re: #702 Obdicut

It seems really unfair, since I just finished a goddamn novel. But depression is a monkey on your back. Oh well. At least it leaves me never resting on my laurels.

"One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

-- Albert Camus

706 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:43:28am

re: #705 000G

"One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

-- Albert Camus

Freaking love that essay.

707 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:43:52am

re: #700 Obdicut

It totally sucks, dude. You're really bearing up very well under it. I'd be happy to share a bomb shelter with you.

Thanks Obdi ... I have learned a lot about my friends, neighbors, and even my Internet friends (consider yourself in that category) ... We are an awesome country and we take care of each other.

708 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:46:31am

re: #707 _RememberTonyC

My husband's company sent 60 people. Lots of other midwest utilities went up to help as well. It's called The Mutual Assistance program. God bless America.

709 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:47:14am

re: #694 SanFranciscoZionist

More of us liked him than liked the other guy. So he gets to be President.

That's not how it always works. :-/

710 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:47:40am

re: #704 OhNoZombies!

Sometimes though, I think they have more resentment for white people voting for Obama since they did it out of misguided "white guilt."
Blacks just voted for him cause we're racist.

I just find it fascinating that some people assume that LOTS of people who wouldn't normally have voted for a Democrat voted for Obama out of white guilt.

Everyone who voted for Obama, in fact, falls into this category.

Which makes me think that the people making this charge don't see anything but black when they look at him.

Which in turn makes it hilarious when these same people claim he's not black.

"You only voted for him because you mistakenly thought he was black."

711 makeitstop  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:47:46am

re: #699 Gus 802

LOL

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Oh brother.

What an idiot.

712 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:48:28am

re: #708 prairiefire

My husband's company sent 60 people. Lots of other midwest utilities went up to help as well. It's called The Mutual Assistance program. God bless America.

Thank him for us ... And thank YOU!

713 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:49:00am

re: #709 000G

That's not how it always works. :-/

Well, true.

But once it was all over, I remember being on the phone with my mom and saying "OK, he's president. Game over. WTF. Moving on."

714 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:50:48am

re: #713 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, true.

But once it was all over, I remember being on the phone with my mom and saying "OK, he's president. Game over. WTF. Moving on."

Yeah. It's not like we didn't know that was a possibility. That's the system we have. If we don't like it, we can agitate to change it. It's not like if Gore had won in the same manner he would have stepped aside and let Bush be president-- not to mention that he couldn't, actually, do that.

715 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:51:26am

re: #694 SanFranciscoZionist

However, he was president, and while I disapproved of most of what he did, I would never have said he did not deserve to be president because he was 'divisive'.

What's more, Romney did not say Obama did not deserve to be POTUS. He said Obama did not have the right to be POTUS. The former one could be taken as meritocratic partisanship taken too far. The latter is much stronger, it denies the legality of Obama holding the office, and that implies a Birther kind of mentality.

716 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:51:44am

re: #712 _RememberTonyC

Thank him for us ... And thank YOU!

Aw, I'm just a humble utility worker's spouse.
Just imagine new poles and lines along the roads by summer. I think the people will keep the hammer on the utility after this.

717 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:51:52am

re: #710 SanFranciscoZionist

I just find it fascinating that some people assume that LOTS of people who wouldn't normally have voted for a Democrat voted for Obama out of white guilt.

Everyone who voted for Obama, in fact, falls into this category.

Which makes me think that the people making this charge don't see anything but black when they look at him.

Which in turn makes it hilarious when these same people claim he's not black.

"You only voted for him because you mistakenly thought he was black."

White conservative cognitive dissonance over the topic of BLACK is one of my favorite causes for Schadenfreude.

Stupid, ignorant idiots, they only reveal their own voting habits and biases.

718 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:52:12am

The power company trucks that finally showed up in my neighborhood today were from Tennessee, Pennsylvania, and Missouri. We are in Central Connecticut. Thanks to all who are trying to help.

719 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:54:06am

re: #706 Obdicut

Freaking love that essay.

Me too. Read it over a half-dozen times.

720 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:54:50am

re: #707 _RememberTonyC

Thanks Obdi ... I have learned a lot about my friends, neighbors, and even my Internet friends (consider yourself in that category) ... We are an awesome country and we take care of each other.

Have some updings from a friendly foreigner to keep you warm, pal!

721 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:55:02am

re: #715 000G

What's more, Romney did not say Obama did not deserve to be POTUS. He said Obama did not have the right to be POTUS. The former one could be taken as meritocratic partisanship taken too far. The latter is much stronger, it denies the legality of Obama holding the office, and that implies a Birther kind of mentality.

Indeed. Basically, Romney is taking the same tack as the crazy concealed-carry instructor in Texas, he's saying that a vote for Obama was a mistaken vote. Then he's taking it further--such a vote does not count, since Obama does not have the 'right' to be president, even though Obama won the presidency by the only process that gives you the right to be POTUS.

So I am being informed that my right to the vote is conditional upon it putting a dude in the White House who doesn't upset the Republican base. This is not, clearly, a reciprocal arrangement, either.

722 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:56:21am

re: #718 _RememberTonyC

The power company trucks that finally showed up in my neighborhood today were from Tennessee, Pennsylvania, and Missouri. We are in Central Connecticut. Thanks to all who are trying to help.

Hooray ~ If the trucks are there, hopefully it will be back buzzing soon!

723 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:57:42am

re: #720 000G

Have some updings from a friendly foreigner to keep you warm, pal!

Normally I don't care about up dings or down dings, but they actually help right now. They signify "moral support" and that is much appreciated.

724 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:57:50am

re: #704 OhNoZombies!

Sometimes though, I think they have more resentment for white people voting for Obama since they did it out of misguided "white guilt."
Blacks just voted for him cause we're racist.

Both groups remind them they themselves are the ones voting based on skin color and body parts.

These are people who feel only they should have a vote, to begin with. That to me is where the Romney comment comes from.

725 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:58:58am

re: #722 prairiefire

Hooray ~ If the trucks are there, hopefully it will be back buzzing soon!

Fingers crossed :)

726 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 10:59:05am

Andy Borowitz:

NEW YORK: Donald Trump says the marathon winner should be disqualified because he was born in Kenya.

727 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:00:24am

re: #721 SanFranciscoZionist

Indeed. Basically, Romney is taking the same tack as the crazy concealed-carry instructor in Texas, he's saying that a vote for Obama was a mistaken vote. Then he's taking it further--such a vote does not count, since Obama does not have the 'right' to be president, even though Obama won the presidency by the only process that gives you the right to be POTUS.

So I am being informed that my right to the vote is conditional upon it putting a dude in the White House who doesn't upset the Republican base. This is not, clearly, a reciprocal arrangement, either.

It's a really old confederate mentality, that long-predates the actual Confederates.

Only white conservatives, preferably males, are supposed to be the citizens. If anyone else is to be considered a citizen it's only on a 2nd class basis.

728 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:01:44am

re: #724 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

It does. The irony is that the people he's trying to appeal to would never vote for a Mormon either.

re: #710 SanFranciscoZionist

I call it the 'Racist Paradox' .

729 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:02:00am

So long for now ... Thanks for the well wishes!

730 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:02:43am

re: #726 SanFranciscoZionist

Andy Borowitz:

NEW YORK: Donald Trump says the marathon winner should be disqualified because he was born in Kenya.

Joke, right?

731 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:03:11am

re: #728 OhNoZombies!

It does. The irony is that the people he's trying to appeal to would never vote for a Mormon either.

When all else fails, appeal to white conservative bigotry. The LDS has a long history of this.

732 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:04:22am

re: #731 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yes they do.

733 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:05:11am

Mitt's such a panderer. It's not even funny anymore.

734 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:09:02am

re: #568 Gus 802

Mitt Romney being a douche bag:

"There is no way that America can lead the world in jobs, innovation and rising incomes if we divide our nation," Romney said.

"It is united we stand and divided we fall, and a president who is looking to divide the nation and to disparage fellow Americans ... has no right to be the leader of the free world."

Because Mitt Romney cares so much about uniting the nation. All Mitt cares about Mitt looking good so he can become presidnet. What a jerk. And it's typical of the right wing attitude that refuses to accept that many of us voted for Obama. Criticize his policies, sure but the no right is a lot of crap on Mitt's part and he knwos it.

735 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:09:19am
736 Gus  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:12:22am

BBL

737 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:14:35am

re: #734 HappyWarrior

Because Mitt Romney cares so much about uniting the nation. All Mitt cares about Mitt looking good so he can become presidnet. What a jerk. And it's typical of the right wing attitude that refuses to accept that many of us voted for Obama. Criticize his policies, sure but the no right is a lot of crap on Mitt's part and he knwos it.

The other part of it is their inability to compete with others on a peer basis, since that means the potential to lose to someone they deem lesser than they are. Afaic, that's what state-forced segregation, no vote for women, quotas against Jews, shutting out people with disabilities, and other forms of social conservatism, is/was all about.

738 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:25:33am

re: #730 Obdicut

Joke, right?

It's Andy Borowitz, so yes, I'm gonna say.

739 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:26:16am

re: #737 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Extra upding for truth.

740 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:27:36am

re: #705 000G

"One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

-- Albert Camus

He was the best of that generation.

741 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 12:30:17pm

re: #697 Obdicut

It's really not the seasonal stuff. It's actually a gorgeous, gorgeous day out here. I think GGT had the right of it; I just finished my book, and now I'm kind of deflated. I need another creative project to lift me up. I may even just start writing again soon.

Dwarf Fortress!

;)

Where losing is FUN. Just like political discussions.

742 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 6, 2011 4:01:59pm

re: #685 Obdicut

What really annoys me about Romney's statement is the absolute, shameless hypocrisy of it.

He's flat-out saying Obama has no right to be the President. And he's saying that's because he's divisive.

Well, what is saying that a President, duly elected under law, has no right to be president? Isn't that divisive?

This is why, for all the things I could fault Obama for, I have difficulty really criticizing him. He already gets such a fucking torrential tirade of stupid, creepy, insane abuse. The extent to which he has not lashed back speaks to enormous restraint on his part. The only consolation is that restraint and humility must frustrate his opponents to no end-- thus their hypocritical cries that he's vain and arrogant.

IMHO, He is basically saying that the our whole system of government is invalid because it allowed Obama to be elected.

"he has no right" WTF?


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Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
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