Holocaust-Denying Bishop Needs ‘More Evidence’

Religion • Views: 2,718

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has spoken to Pope Benedict about Holocaust-denying Bishop Richard Williamson, but the Pope isn’t budging. Williamson is still being reinstated.

(CNN) — German Chancellor Angela Merkel phoned Pope Benedict XVI Sunday over a Holocaust denier whom the pope welcomed back into the Roman Catholic Church last month.

“It was a very constructive conversation,” the German government and Vatican said in a joint statement about the call. Merkel and the pope expressed respect for each others’ opinion, the release said — diplomatic-speak for saying neither side budged. ..

The Vatican has pointed to several statements by Pope Benedict in the past few years condemning the destruction of European Jewry, including his visits to concentration camps. He has also said he did not know of Williamson’s views on the Holocaust when he lifted the excommunication.

“I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against — is hugely against — 6 million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler,” Williamson said recently in an interview with a Swedish television station, which also appeared on various Web sites after its broadcast. “I believe there were no gas chambers.”

And Williamson has no intention of honestly recanting his ugly antisemitic views.

In the Saturday article, Spiegel quotes Williamson saying he will not recant and that he would need more evidence to believe the Holocaust really happened. “If I find this proof, then I will correct myself,” he said. “But that will require some time.”

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940 comments
1 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:10:43am

This guy doesn't need to be rehabilitated. He needs to be ostracized.

2 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:10:50am

Good grief!
What sort of proof does Williamson need?
Has he visited the camps?
Seen the photos?

3 Wyatt Earp  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:11:18am

Someone needs a field trip to Auschwitz. Scumbag.

4 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:12:03am

I have got to give it to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, she is turning out to be a great anti-semitic bulldog!

5 pingjockey  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:13:44am

The Bishop is unhinged.

6 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:14:52am

I still believe the moon is Swiss Cheese!
Or is it Gouda?
//
What a Moron!

7 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:17:23am

Perhaps, it would assist the POPE in pressuring his excommunication against Williamson, if we all sent an email to the vatican expressing our dissent. I have sent one every day. And will keep it up, until this bastard either is excommunicated or Williamson makes ample and accurate apology to the Jews.
[Link: email.about.com...]

8 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:23:02am

Most Catholics aren't antisemites, but some are. (And as a Protestant, I'm certain that plenty of Protestants are antisemites!) Kicking the antisemites out of the Catholic Church could cost it 10% of its members. That's a road the Pope doesn't want to travel. Better, in the Pope's view, to keep the bigots in the fold, and try gentle, or even harsh, verbal persuasion. Verbal condemnation from the top, and stubborn bigotry from Williamson, define this stalemate.

9 A.W.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:24:06am

I will repeat myself. This guy is an a--, but i really think excommunication should be reserved for, yes, even more extreme cases than this. Like a man who kills random jews, instead of someone who ridiculously denies that such people have existed.

And i say this as a non-catholic, who really has no dog in this hunt. But I think they are perfectly reasonable in saying "since your sin was one of the mind, we will continue to try to make you see the light. keep coming to our church."

So i guess i don't get the outrage here.

10 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:27:01am

re: #9 A.W.

So i guess i don't get the outrage here.

The outrage is that he holds a position in the church, he speaks for certain areas of the church. This is not the dude on the corner being kicked out for not saying enough hail mary's, this is a leader being allowed to remain after spouting hateful lies.

11 opinionated  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:28:39am
"F**king Israelis, f**king Jews,"

A top UK Foreign Office official has been arrested on suspicion of an anti-Semitic outburst at a gym, the Daily Mail reported Monday.

Rowan Laxton, who is head of the South Asia Group at the Foreign Office, was watching TV reports of the IDF offensive in Gaza while on an exercise bike at a gym when he was allegedly heard shouting: "F**king Israelis, f**king Jews," and saying that IDF soldiers should be wiped off the face of the earth, the UK newspaper reported

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

He only expressed out loud the opinion of the entire British Foreign Office.

12 Big Steve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:28:51am

Does anyone see the connection between Williamson's "need" for more evidence and creationists need for more evidence before accepting evolution? I am not trying to make light of the holocaust by comparing it to a current debate, it just seems to be a form of the same reasoning. Once one has a set "belief", facts are just not persuasive.

13 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:29:59am

The demand for more holocaust evidence: The thin edge of the wedge.

14 Big Steve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:30:38am

re: #9 A.W.

I will repeat myself. This guy is an a--, but i really think excommunication should be reserved for, yes, even more extreme cases than this. Like a man who kills random jews, instead of someone who ridiculously denies that such people have existed.

And i say this as a non-catholic, who really has no dog in this hunt. But I think they are perfectly reasonable in saying "since your sin was one of the mind, we will continue to try to make you see the light. keep coming to our church."

So i guess i don't get the outrage here.

True the act is worse than the thought but the thoughts are enablers for those who act.

15 lurking faith  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:30:52am

re: #9 A.W.

I think you have a good point there. However, this particular jerk does need to be kept out of any position of leadership, and should not be allowed to act as a priest (much less a bishop).

16 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:31:00am

re: #11 opinionated

This was the opinion of the British Foreign Office long before modern Israel existed. They all were "Arabists", as was Lawrence of Arabia.

17 Liechtentrager  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:31:46am

If he were to require the same level of "proof" for the existence of God, I doubt he would be a member of the clergy.

18 S'latch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:31:59am

The Pope did not know of Williamson’s views on the Holocaust when he lifted the excommunication?

I find that hard to believe.

19 Big Steve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:32:34am

re: #17 Liechtentrager

If he were to require the same level of "proof" for the existence of God, I doubt he would be a member of the clergy.

a million updings to that.......exactly!

20 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:32:46am

This man is not a Catholic Bishop. He was a priest who joined a renegade group. When that renegade group made him bishop he was excommunicated. He was not Catholic, he was not a Bishop he was not a Priest.

By being unexcommunicated he is Catholic once again. Maybe he is even a Priest again (I am not sure of excommunication automatically means you are defrocked).

The media keeps referring to him as a Bishop to fan the flames. Or maybe the media has developed a new journalistic standard where one can give themselves titles. In that case I am now King Rico II of Spain.

21 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:32:47am
22 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:33:09am
23 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:34:28am

re: #5 pingjockey

The Bishop is unhinged.

Or something.
It is inconceivable to me that anyone could deny that the holocaust happened.

I'm sending young Reine to Europe with a school group this coming summer - she wanted to wait and go NEXT year to the UK (and we're sending her on that one too), but I specifically wanted her to go on this year's trip because it includes a visit to Dachau, lecture and film included.

That will be a powerful lesson for her, I think; having been there, I think she could not ever fall under the spell of a holocaust denier; and when faced with idiotic people, she is not one who tends to keep her mouth shut.

24 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:34:35am

re: #2 reine.de.tout

I believe I read that he refused to go to the camps.

25 lurking faith  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:34:38am

re: #12 Big Steve

Does anyone see the connection between Williamson's "need" for more evidence and creationists need for more evidence before accepting evolution? I am not trying to make light of the holocaust by comparing it to a current debate, it just seems to be a form of the same reasoning. Once one has a set "belief", facts are just not persuasive.


Exactly. This also applies to global warming, the alleged wonderfulness of socialism, and many other "ideas" adhered to by true believers. When one has washed one's brain, one can't do anything with it.

26 Opinionated  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:34:44am

re: #16 quickjustice

This was the opinion of the British Foreign Office long before modern Israel existed. They all were "Arabists", as was Lawrence of Arabia.

Exactly.

Holocaust deniers are anti Semites and also plain crazy- but they pale in significance today to the active anti Semites among the diplomats who are constructing "peace plans" and "road maps" that are inevitably leading to Israel's death - and they concern me more much.

27 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:34:52am

re: #11 opinionated

Exactly. I find it refreshingly honest.

28 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:35:26am

re: #3 Wyatt Earp

Someone needs a field trip to Auschwitz. Scumbag.

He needs a trip to ALL former concentration camps as well as Yad Vashem.

29 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:35:26am

re: #20 jester6

This man is not a Catholic Bishop. He was a priest who joined a renegade group. When that renegade group made him bishop he was excommunicated. He was not Catholic, he was not a Bishop he was not a Priest.

By being unexcommunicated he is Catholic once again. Maybe he is even a Priest again (I am not sure of excommunication automatically means you are defrocked).

The media keeps referring to him as a Bishop to fan the flames. Or maybe the media has developed a new journalistic standard where one can give themselves titles. In that case I am now King Rico II of Spain.

He is, I believe, still a priest, but cannot perform the duties of a priest.

30 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:35:27am

re: #16 quickjustice

Yes, this one is just more transparent, and apparently heterosexual with a Muslim wife..is he a "revert" too?

31 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:36:17am

re: #13 karmic_inquisitor

Swiss banks also demanded proof of death from Jews who went to claim their assets after the war. Exasperated survivors tried to explain to the Swiss bankers that death certificates were not offered at Auschwitz. Didn't help.

32 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:36:24am

re: #24 WriterMom

I believe I read that he refused to go to the camps.

If true, then he is willfully and deliberately avoiding and ignoring the "proof" he claims to seek.

33 Opinionated  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:36:44am

re: #27 WriterMom

Exactly. I find it refreshingly honest.

Likely also the opinion of not an insignificant number of State Dept officials.

34 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:36:58am

re: #12 Big Steve

As I said in the previous thread, creationists want the debate topic to be: "Does G-d exist?" You'll never persuade them that G-d doesn't exist, so their demands for "evidence" are specious.

If the debate topic is: "Does science provide a method for observing, measuring, analyzing, and understanding the natural world better than religious dogma in strictly empirical terms", the debate is over before it starts. That's because religious dogma doesn't draw its authority from the scientific method.

Williamson's holocaust denial is a refusal to seek out the empirical evidence that would change his mind based upon his biases. He doesn't want to know the truth, because it conflicts with what he wants to believe.

35 redc1c4  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:37:03am

i have an opinion on this matter.........

however, i happen to like posting here.

36 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:39:05am

re: #1 Leonidas Hoplite

This guy doesn't need to be rehabilitated. He needs to be ostracized.

Why? He's not considered a Bishop by the Church (since he was ordained by religion deemed false - actually schismatic by the RC Church), he's considered a lay priest - not allowed to perform any of the functions of the priesthood. The Pope, with this move, strongly appears to be dis empowering anti-Semites by neutralizing Williamson and others like him. Last time I looked, anti-Semitic sentiments/actions were on the high rise in Europe. Finally, Catholicism, unlike some other religious persuasions/social institutions, is committed to keeping adherence to forgiveness/mercy, not ostracism. Look to others, for instance the penal system (or certain family systems), to ostracize - one reason so many (not all) inmates come out worse for the time endured.

37 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:39:29am

Holocaust Denial is a mental disorder much like liberalism. You take one part conspiracy theory, add a dash of idiocy and a cup of lunacy and you get Williamson.

38 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:39:40am

Here it is:

Williams Wants More Evidence, But Refuses to Go To Death Camps

He has apologized to the pope for having stirred controversy, but has not repudiated his comments, in which he also said only 200,000 to 300,000 Jews were killed during World War II.

Williamson does not plan to immediately comply with the Vatican's demand that he recant, and has rejected a suggestion that he might visit the former Auschwitz death camp, the German weekly Der Spiegel reported Saturday.

Williamson said he would correct himself if he is satisfied by the evidence, but insisted that examining it "will take time," Der Spiegel reported

.

Sorry I said it out loud making ya look bad, screw the Jews.

39 Opinionated  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:39:49am

re: #27 WriterMom

Exactly. I find it refreshingly honest.

Not totally honest:

When contacted by the British newspaper, Laxton denied his remarks were anti-Semitic but declined comment when asked if they were anti-Israeli.

I assume under the theory that "Fucking Jews" are some of his best friends.

40 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:40:06am

re: #33 Opinionated

Absolutely.

41 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:40:32am

re: #39 Opinionated

LOL. Good catch.

42 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:40:51am

re: #29 reine.de.tout

He is, I believe, still a priest, but cannot perform the duties of a priest.

That makes sense. But the point is this man was never a Catholic Bishop... apparently for good reason.

That being said, these stories and the way they are written are obviously intended to smear the Catholic Church. Whether it's Catholic, Jews or Evangelicals it just pisses me off when the MSM smears a religious group like this.

43 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:40:57am

re: #2 reine.de.tout

I remember when I was in college sitting in a computer room with a couple of friends screwing around with what was then the internet. Most of it was slow modems moving data between university computers with a few research computers with these rare ".com" and ".mil" addresses.

"How powerful" we thought. This thing was going to revolutionize civilization. Put access to learning and knowledge in the hands of so many. It would cement the role of rationality in modern life and bring so many around the world into one rational, fact based community of thinking people.

Well that hasn't happened. Instead we have a system that produces undue influence for those who reject reason and rationality and promote "feel good" thinking and conspiracy theories. And it has been a big boon for those who simply hate.

So we get Al Qaeda getting a free worldwide tactical communications and propaganda system. We get 9/11 troofers. We get the worlds greatest force for wealth creation (the United States) no rejecting wealth creation for the sake of "Hope, Change, and Spreading The Wealth Around". And then we get a European cleric demanding evidence of the holocaust which can be delivered to him instantaneously if he just sat down and asked for it.

Truly sad and surprising.

44 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:40:58am

re: #11 opinionated

A top UK Foreign Office official has been arrested on suspicion of an anti-Semitic outburst at a gym, the Daily Mail reported Monday.

Rowan Laxton, who is head of the South Asia Group at the Foreign Office, was watching TV reports of the IDF offensive in Gaza while on an exercise bike at a gym when he was allegedly heard shouting: "F**king Israelis, f**king Jews," and saying that IDF soldiers should be wiped off the face of the earth, the UK newspaper reported

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

He only expressed out loud the opinion of the entire British Foreign Office.

Ploome and I were discussing British antisemitism last night. There's this article from al-Guardian:

Rise in antisemitic attacks 'the worst recorded in Britain in decades'British Jews' safety fears grow after Gaza invasion

Police patrols have been stepped up in Jewish neighbourhoods following the most intense period of antisemitic incidents to have been recorded in Britain in decades.

Safety fears are so acute that reports have emerged of members of Britain's Jewish community fleeing the UK with antisemitic incidents running at around seven a day this year.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

45 Amer-I-Can  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:41:40am

Dump this clown and never look back. I visited Bergen Belsen once, and there is NO need for further proof of the horror. Let this joker sleep on a cot in an "oven" overnight, maybe the spirit of those who went before him will change his mind.

46 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:41:49am

re: #38 WriterMom

Here it is:

Williams Wants More Evidence, But Refuses to Go To Death Camps

. . .
Williamson does not plan to immediately comply with the Vatican's demand that he recant, and has rejected a suggestion that he might visit the former Auschwitz death camp, the German weekly Der Spiegel reported Saturday.

Williamson said he would correct himself if he is satisfied by the evidence, but insisted that examining it "will take time," Der Spiegel reported.

Sorry I said it out loud making ya look bad, screw the Jews.


So, he will "examine" the evidence by studiously ignoring it.
Idiot.

47 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:42:34am

re: #15 lurking faith

I think you have a good point there. However, this particular jerk does need to be kept out of any position of leadership, and should not be allowed to act as a priest (much less a bishop).

He won't be. He was never considered a Bishop by the RC Church and he's already stripped of his priestly functions ( he was originally ordained a priest by the RC Church - and that's for life - even w/out being able to perform sacraments/Mass). If he repents and seeks forgiveness, theoretically he could go through lots of fiery hoops and be re-instated as a functioning priest - but certainly not as things stand now.

48 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:42:53am

re: #43 karmic_inquisitor

I remember when I was in college sitting in a computer room with a couple of friends screwing around with what was then the internet. Most of it was slow modems moving data between university computers with a few research computers with these rare ".com" and ".mil" addresses.

"How powerful" we thought. This thing was going to revolutionize civilization. Put access to learning and knowledge in the hands of so many. It would cement the role of rationality in modern life and bring so many around the world into one rational, fact based community of thinking people.

Well that hasn't happened. Instead we have a system that produces undue influence for those who reject reason and rationality and promote "feel good" thinking and conspiracy theories. And it has been a big boon for those who simply hate.

So we get Al Qaeda getting a free worldwide tactical communications and propaganda system. We get 9/11 troofers. We get the worlds greatest force for wealth creation (the United States) no rejecting wealth creation for the sake of "Hope, Change, and Spreading The Wealth Around". And then we get a European cleric demanding evidence of the holocaust which can be delivered to him instantaneously if he just sat down and asked for it.

Truly sad and surprising.

BUT - a silver lining imo - we also get LGF and other blogs like it, bringing to us the news that the MSM doesn't want us to see.

49 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:43:02am

re: #44 MJ

The Jews need to get out of the UK and France. There is no Jewish future there.

50 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:43:22am
51 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:43:41am
52 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:43:54am

re: #43 karmic_inquisitor

But in this case we have the MSM giving him a spotlight that the Internet still cannot provide.

53 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:44:01am

re: #43 karmic_inquisitor

I remember when I was in college sitting in a computer room with a couple of friends screwing around with what was then the internet. Most of it was slow modems moving data between university computers with a few research computers with these rare ".com" and ".mil" addresses.

"How powerful" we thought. This thing was going to revolutionize civilization. Put access to learning and knowledge in the hands of so many. It would cement the role of rationality in modern life and bring so many around the world into one rational, fact based community of thinking people.

Well that hasn't happened. Instead we have a system that produces undue influence for those who reject reason and rationality and promote "feel good" thinking and conspiracy theories. And it has been a big boon for those who simply hate.

So we get Al Qaeda getting a free worldwide tactical communications and propaganda system. We get 9/11 troofers. We get the worlds greatest force for wealth creation (the United States) no rejecting wealth creation for the sake of "Hope, Change, and Spreading The Wealth Around". And then we get a European cleric demanding evidence of the holocaust which can be delivered to him instantaneously if he just sat down and asked for it.

Truly sad and surprising.

You woldn't be the first to think an incredible new piece of technology would usher in an era of peace or some other quasi-utopia. The Wright Brothers thought the same thing about the airplane.

54 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:44:14am

re: #43 karmic_inquisitor

Truly sad and surprising.

Yes, sad, but not surprising. When Gutenberg perfected his invention, they figured that now, finally, the word of God would be supreme, once the bible was out there, everyone would read it. He just didn't count on the New York Times.

55 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:44:20am

He never had any intention of recanting, because there was no amount of evidence that would make him change his views. All the evidence necessary to show that the Holocaust happened is available to anyone who cares to view it. It is overwhelming, but the deniers refuse to accept it on faith alone. They will find excuses and rationales to undermine the existence of the gas chambers, the horror stories, and the admissions by the Nazis themselves of the horrific actions they took to exterminate the Jewish population in Europe.

He is a Holocaust denier to the core.

56 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:44:58am
“If I find this proof, then I will correct myself,” he said. “But that will require some time.”

Not to mention some brains, which he is obviously lacking.

57 nyc redneck  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:45:23am

the holocaust denying bishop does NOT need more evidence.
he is of the mind set that NO amount of evidence would satisfy him.
he is a jew hater, seeking to undermine the truth.
by devious means. trying to cast doubt. stir up trouble.
this is his way of persecuting jews, in the name of seeking evidence.
it is obvious he is a rude hateful pos.

58 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:45:52am

re: #51 ploome hineni

..the Pope knew exactly why Williamson and the others were ex-communicated

This entire group should never have been reinstated.
I don't think any of them have reflected and "recanted" any of the views that got them excommunicated to begin with.

59 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:45:55am

re: #57 nyc redneck

this is his way of persecuting jews

Agree.

60 afrocity  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:46:12am

Good Morning, I am a new hatchling from yesterday

Maybe Williamson should visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC

61 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:46:17am

I think Dante got it wrong when he wrote about the 7 circles of hell. He missed one, the eight circle is where this moron belongs.

62 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:46:19am

I can understand the pope's desire to heal the wounds with SSPX, but I wouldn't have lifted their excommunications, just because they're SSPX. He can't re-excommunicate Williamson for his idiotic views (it's not a doctrinal matter), but he should definitely ostracize him, and hold him out for ridicule.

Williamson, you suck.

63 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:46:23am
64 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:46:27am

Isn't the classic definition of a "bigot" someone who retains prejudicial views and refuses to be persuaded by factual evidence to the contrary? Williamson is (clearly) a bigoted antisemite. (Nothing will alter Williamson's views). (Creationists are similar in some respects, although they seem to verge more towards a "true believer" syndrome -- like conspiracy theorists...which may or may not also shade into paranoid prejudices...)

65 Angus Day  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:46:38am

Cripes, it's getting as bad as CNN in here.

He isn't being 're-instated'. He isn't a Bishop, nor has the Pontiff made him, or re-instated him, to a Bishop - he is not a catholic Bishop, he never was a Catholic Bishop, and, as long as he holds the views he does, the Pontiff has made it clear, he never will hold any position within the church.

He is now able to receive communion within normal catholic churches - that is all.

Can all of you who are shouting nonsense about this tell me - at your church, are people's views on historical events checked before they are received? Should the Catholic Church be adding new parts to the catechism, relating to the Holocaust? Is it only the holocaust, or are we to check for other loony views on history?

66 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:46:45am

BTW - The Pope may want to think about something that his army of catechists teach children each day.

It is not enough to sya your sorry and ask for forgiveness. You must feel contrition in your heart and use that to change your ways and come closer to God. This clown, in asking for more Holocaust evidence, does not in any way feel contrite. It is the opposite - the Church to hi is a big system that he was alienated from and he figured a way to needle his way back in.

His heart hasn't changed. It is still black.

67 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:47:04am

re: #47 Daisy

He won't be. He was never considered a Bishop by the RC Church and he's already stripped of his priestly functions ( he was originally ordained a priest by the RC Church - and that's for life - even w/out being able to perform sacraments/Mass). If he repents and seeks forgiveness, theoretically he could go through lots of fiery hoops and be re-instated as a functioning priest - but certainly not as things stand now.

You seem to have a better handle on the Canon law. Can't a Priest be defrocked? When you are defrocked do you become a lay priest or just a lay person? Is excommunication totally separate from being defrocked?

Still, as I have said before this person was never a RC Bishop and that simply cannot be said enough. If MSM reported on every RC Priest with some crazy theories there would be no room for any other news.

68 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:47:10am

re: #10 Stonemason

The outrage is that he holds a position in the church, he speaks for certain areas of the church. This is not the dude on the corner being kicked out for not saying enough hail mary's, this is a leader being allowed to remain after spouting hateful lies.

He holds no position in the Church, except as a priest w/out the functions of that office (he was never ordained a Bishop in the RC Church. As such, he's not one when the excommunication was lifted). No one would be excommunicated for not saying enough "Hail Marys" (whatever the fuck that means) and hateful lies are much more mundane than seems apparent to you .. which is pretty ironic, actually.

69 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:47:12am

re: #36 Daisy

Why? He's not considered a Bishop by the Church (since he was ordained by religion deemed false - actually schismatic by the RC Church), he's considered a lay priest - not allowed to perform any of the functions of the priesthood. The Pope, with this move, strongly appears to be dis empowering anti-Semites by neutralizing Williamson and others like him. Last time I looked, anti-Semitic sentiments/actions were on the high rise in Europe. Finally, Catholicism, unlike some other religious persuasions/social institutions, is committed to keeping adherence to forgiveness/mercy, not ostracism. Look to others, for instance the penal system (or certain family systems), to ostracize - one reason so many (not all) inmates come out worse for the time endured.

He is unrepentant. As long as he is unrepentant and within the fold of the Catholic Church, it can be viewed as an implicit endorsement of his views, or at the least as another example of the church casting a blind eye, as with all the years of child abuse within the ranks of the clergy. The policy should be zero tolerance.

70 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:47:18am

re: #60 afrocity

See:
re: #38 WriterMom

Here it is:

Williams Wants More Evidence, But Refuses to Go To Death Camps

.

Sorry I said it out loud making ya look bad, screw the Jews.

71 Steve Rogers  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:47:19am

During the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials, the defendants kept pleading that they were just "following orders." Not a single one of them ever said anything to the effect of, "Holocaust? What Holocaust? Slaughtering Jews? What are you talking about? That never happened."

There you go Bishop Williamson. Putting aside all the historical evidence, documentation, first-hand accounts, photos, films, files, still-standing concentration camps etc., the above alone is all the evidence you should need.

72 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:48:52am

re: #71 Steve Rogers

As has been rightly noted, no amount of "evidence" will turn this person's heart. We can see what is in his soul: rotten, vicious Jew-hatred to the core. Nothing will change that.

73 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:48:59am

re: #65 Angus Day

Is it only the holocaust

Sir, I find that statement offensive. 6 million jews perished and you say "it is only the holocaust"! WTF!

74 rumcrook  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:49:22am

like a troofer evidence will never matter.

as society lets these nuts spread, we will end up with no ability to come to clarity based on evidence.

concrete evidence will have no meaning.

conspiracy will be concrete, and evidence will be conspiracy.

pearl harbor
the holocaust
jfk
the moon landing
911
even whether jihadi scum cut off daniel pearls head is up for debate with some jackals.

75 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:49:57am

For those who think the media are the only ones calling Bishop Williamson a bishop, I refer you to the statement issued by Francis Cardinal George who is currently the head of the US Conference of Bishops:


President of U.S. Bishops Says Holocaust Denial 'Deeply Offensive and Utterly False'


WASHINGTON—The President of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has called remarks denying the Holocaust by Bishop Richard Williamson of the Priestly Society of St. Pius X, "deeply offensive and utterly false."

The assessment came in a February 3 statement by Cardinal Francis George of Chicago, USCCB President.

The Holocaust denial by Bishop Williamson was widely publicized after Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication upon the bishops of the St. Pius X Society.

Cardinal George's statement follows.

Statement of Cardinal Francis George, President USCCB

Pope Benedict XVI has lifted the personal penalty of excommunication incurred by four schismatic bishops belonging to the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X, founded by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. This gesture on the part of the Holy Father was an act of mercy and personal concern for the ordained and lay members of this Society and was meant to coincide with the fiftieth commemoration of the convening of the Second Vatican Council.

The Holy Father's lifting of the excommunications is but a first step toward receiving these four bishops, and the priests who serve under them, back into full communion with the Catholic Church. If these bishops are to exercise their ministry as true teachers and pastors of the Catholic Church, they, like all Catholic bishops, will have to give their assent to all that the Church professes, including the teachings of the Second Vatican Council.

As is now widely known, one of the four bishops, Richard Williamson, has recently made some deeply offensive and utterly false statements about the Holocaust of the Second World War. Bishop Williamson has denied historical facts about the Shoah, in which six million Jews were cruelly annihilated, innocent victims of blind racial and religious hatred. These comments have evoked understandable outrage from within the Jewish community and also from among our own Catholic people. No Catholic, whether lay person, priest or bishop can ever negate the memory of the Shoah, just as no Catholic should ever tolerate expressions of anti-Semitism and religious bigotry.

I make my own the words of the Holy Father spoken at the General Audience on January 28, 2009: "[May] the Shoah show both old and new generations that only the arduous path of listening and dialogue, of love and forgiveness, can lead peoples, cultures and religions of the world to the longed-for goal of fraternity and peace, in truth. May violence never again humiliate man's dignity." We Catholic bishops in the United States are as committed as ever to building bonds of trust and mutual understanding with our elder brothers and sisters, the Jewish people, so that together with them we may be a blessing to the world.

Francis Cardinal George


[Link: www.usccb.org...]


This is not an attempt to smear the Catholic Church as some on the list have suggested unless you want to make the claim that the US Conference of Bishops are also smearing the Church.

76 nyc redneck  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:50:17am

people like this never want more evidence.
this is a ruse to pretend he is a reasonable person who is actually in search of the truth.
he is trying to cover his evil nature and hatred.
he doesn't feel confident enough to let that out.
so he resorts to crafty subterfuge.

77 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:50:22am

re: #69 Leonidas Hoplite

He is unrepentant. As long as he is unrepentant and within the fold of the Catholic Church, it can be viewed as an implicit endorsement of his views, or at the least as another example of the church casting a blind eye, as with all the years of child abuse within the ranks of the clergy. The policy should be zero tolerance.

I agree with this 100%
This group had already been excommunicated.
They should have been required, it seems to me, to honestly refute that "sect" they formed, all tenets, which include anti-semitism, before being allowed to return.

78 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:50:30am

re: #65 Angus Day

They why is everyone calling him a "bishop?" (I've yet to read anything which says he 'isn't a bishop.")

79 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:51:06am

re: #76 nyc redneck

That is exactly it. You have really summed it up perfectly.

80 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:51:09am

re: #73 Jetpilot1101

Sir, I find that statement offensive. 6 million jews perished and you say "it is only the holocaust"! WTF!

He didn't say, "it is only the holocaust", he said, "Is it only the holocaust...".

81 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:51:13am

re: #69 Leonidas Hoplite

He is unrepentant. As long as he is unrepentant and within the fold of the Catholic Church, it can be viewed as an implicit endorsement of his views, or at the least as another example of the church casting a blind eye, as with all the years of child abuse within the ranks of the clergy. The policy should be zero tolerance.

This is similar to the Church ignoring the high-profile Catholic politicians who endorse abortion.

It has the rest of us completely dismayed, and confused.

82 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:51:28am

I would call Williamson an asshole, but that would be offensive to assholes.

83 Opinionated  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:51:37am

If any Jew attempts to provide this POS with any "evidence" of the Holocaust they are tools playing into his and his anti Semitic friends motives.

That there was a plan to systematically murder the Jews of Europe is a fact. That millions were so murdered is a fact.

It need not need to be continuously proved any more then the Moon landing or that Islamics brought down the twin towers.....or that water is wet or that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

84 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:52:01am

re: #60 afrocity

Welcome to lgf.

85 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:52:32am
86 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:53:11am

re: #65 Angus Day

Cripes, it's getting as bad as CNN in here.

He isn't being 're-instated'. He isn't a Bishop, nor has the Pontiff made him, or re-instated him, to a Bishop - he is not a catholic Bishop, he never was a Catholic Bishop, and, as long as he holds the views he does, the Pontiff has made it clear, he never will hold any position within the church.

He is now able to receive communion within normal catholic churches - that is all.

Can all of you who are shouting nonsense about this tell me - at your church, are people's views on historical events checked before they are received? Should the Catholic Church be adding new parts to the catechism, relating to the Holocaust? Is it only the holocaust, or are we to check for other loony views on history?

Apparently not. Some of the posters should be aware of the routine anti-Christian crap emanating from the hearts and mouths of my Jewish relatives (and of course, in many cases, theirs too) before condemning any other hateful ignoramus - who now stands a better chance of changing his evil ways than he did before this outreach.

I'm off to work now, and so, will be bowing out of this particular bit of mayhem.

87 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:53:16am

re: #24 WriterMom

I believe I read that he refused to go to the camps.

In which case he's really an a$$h*!e, because he's asking for more evidence, and refusing to look at it.
If he is a priest, he should get posted to Germany, where he can end up preaching to the prisoners, because what he says is illegal there.

88 daledog  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:53:21am

re: #4 notutopia

Really? How strong is she to standing up to the (ahem) non-Christian anti-semites?

89 jorline  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:54:07am

Based on Richard Williamson's thought process 3/4 or more of all historical data is not true. I use to think the Mayan civilization excised, but the only historical data left behind are a couple of ruins, a calender and several artist conceptions of their nation illustrated in National Geographic.

Living Holocaust survivors, pictures, film, persecutors and liberator's don't count for much I guess.

This guy has been in the church for how many years? The Pope better 86 him and fast.

90 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:54:11am

re: #65 Angus Day

Is it only the holocaust, or are we to check for other loony views on history?

Denying the systematic extermination of a people is a "loony" POV?

Oh, dear. Your sentence is itself loony.

91 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:54:33am

re: #88 daledog

Miserably. I don't believe she made a public statement on the mob scene and the Israeli flag in Germany.

92 Opinionated  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:54:43am

re: #87 Kosh's Shadow

because he's asking for more evidence

He is not asking for evidence- he is asking for debate.

93 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:54:57am

re: #65 Angus Day

Cripes, it's getting as bad as CNN in here.

He isn't being 're-instated'. He isn't a Bishop, nor has the Pontiff made him, or re-instated him, to a Bishop - he is not a catholic Bishop, he never was a Catholic Bishop, and, as long as he holds the views he does, the Pontiff has made it clear, he never will hold any position within the church.

He is now able to receive communion within normal catholic churches - that is all.

Can all of you who are shouting nonsense about this tell me - at your church, are people's views on historical events checked before they are received? Should the Catholic Church be adding new parts to the catechism, relating to the Holocaust? Is it only the holocaust, or are we to check for other loony views on history?

Suggest you read my post 75 above:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

94 Bloodnok  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:55:10am

re: #60 afrocity

Good Morning, I am a new hatchling from yesterday

Maybe Williamson should visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC

Welcome!

95 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:55:14am
96 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:55:16am

re: #73 Jetpilot1101

Sir, I find that statement offensive. 6 million jews perished and you say "it is only the holocaust"! WTF!

You have your words transposed. He said "Is it only...?".

97 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:55:32am

re: #73 Jetpilot1101

Sorry you find it offensive but it is true. I don't know what your faith is or if you have one. But I am sure there are people who share your beliefs who have some pretty unorthodox views when it comes to non-religious beliefs.

This man was a Catholic Priest at one time. He was never a Bishop and was excommunicated for his non-orthodox religious beliefs and actions. Today he is merely a Catholic.

98 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:01am

for Gods sake toss this lunatic into the street and be done with it...this issue should never have come this far...it'a a disgrace imo...all this internal Church politicing is utterly ridiculous

99 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:14am

re: #80 Ward Cleaver

He didn't say, "it is only the holocaust", he said, "Is it only the holocaust...".

No, he said what he said and if he didn't mean it the way it was taken, then he should clarify.

100 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:19am

re: #85 ploome hineni

So the guy has as much priestly power as I do.
None.

But he continues to speak out as if he did have some power and influence - and that is one of the things that gets to me. This guy is not fulfilling his part of the "bargain" of the reinstatement.

He is supposed to be seeking to rejoin the full body of the Church, but he clearly is not doing his part.

The original reasons for the excommunication still exist. They should have CEASED to exist before implementing a reinstatement.

101 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:30am

re: #43 karmic_inquisitor

Sound insight. Human nature doesn't change, technological wonders notwithstanding. The internet and World Wide Web facilitate those who are technologically skilled, and talented and persistent communicators. (Think Obama.) That doesn't necessarily include those who are truthful.

We could limit a lot of the damage by enabling the other feature of [Link: www...] that never was implemented: the virtual identity system. A website is a location. A web identity links the virtual personality to a person in the real world. That means virtual entities can be made accountable for their communications online.

It's a two-edged sword, because it ends anonymity online. I'd argue that virtual anonymity is rapidly becoming an illusion anyway.

102 nyc redneck  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:42am

re: #79 WriterMom

That is exactly it. You have really summed it up perfectly.

it is easy to see thru people like this.
their hate has a toxic glow.

103 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:53am

re: #81 reine.de.tout

This is similar to the Church ignoring the high-profile Catholic politicians who endorse abortion.

It has the rest of us completely dismayed, and confused.

I agree, but the Church definitely speaks out against abortion, and some bishops even refuse communion to politicians who are publicly pro-abortion. This is done for the politicians' own good, as receiving communion while in a state of mortal sin puts their souls in jeopardy of eternal damnation. Short of cracking pro-abortion laymen, priests, and bishops over the head with a stick, this is all they can do. Although sometimes I wish they'd do that.

/rap 'em on the heads with the crozier!

104 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:56:59am

re: #96 MandyManners

re: #99 Jetpilot1101

No, he said what he said and if he didn't mean it the way it was taken, then he should clarify.

The I apologize to Angus.

105 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:57:18am

re: #86 Daisy

Personally, I would advise not throwing out a bomb statement and then disappearing. If you have Jewish relatives and friends who only condemn Holocaust related hatred and denial and turn their backs on other issues of hate then they are idiots. But they are not idiots because they are Jews. They are likely influenced by their liberal passions and not their Jewish identity. I found your comment a bit odd actually. Kind of juvenille, like 'well this guy is bad, but I know Jews who are bad, too'.

106 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:57:44am

re: #95 Afrocity

Ixnay on that alktay.

107 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:57:44am

Those who resent the media referring to Bishop Williamson as a Bishop, please explain why Francis Cardinal George, in the name of the US Conference of Bishops, refers to Bishop Williamson as a bishop?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

108 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:57:45am

re: #61 Jetpilot1101

In Dante's Inferno, the Seventh Circle is where Satan resides. You can't get any lower, theologically speaking, than that! ;-)

109 Irish Rose  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:58:38am

Good morning, Charles.

110 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:59:03am
111 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:59:04am

re: #60 afrocity

Good Morning, I am a new hatchling from yesterday

Maybe Williamson should visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC

A Holocaust survivor I knew was vehemently against Holocaust Museums. He said that Jew-haters enjoy themselves too much. They look at the piles of dead Jews, have orgasms, and get nostalgic for the "good old days."

112 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:59:34am

re: #104 Jetpilot1101

re: #99 Jetpilot1101


The I apologize to Angus.

Still what he said was incredibly moronic.

113 daledog  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:59:39am

re: #65 Angus Day

Great post. Facts do matter.

114 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:59:50am

re: #111 Alouette

There is that element. I actually am against weepy ceremonies, but I think Yad Vashem is quite remarkable.

115 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:59:52am

re: #101 quickjustice

Yikes! Charles, you've outsmarted me! I used "www" to refer to the web, and it linked me automatically! My bad, but a great technology nonetheless! ;-)

116 jcw46  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:00:03am

re: #12 Big Steve

Does anyone see the connection between Williamson's "need" for more evidence and creationists need for more evidence before accepting evolution? I am not trying to make light of the holocaust by comparing it to a current debate, it just seems to be a form of the same reasoning. Once one has a set "belief", facts are just not persuasive.

I find it repugnant that you would make a specious argument for the equivalency of the creationist's need for more evidence of random evolution with the arrogant statements of a holocaust denier is itself an indication of evolution being your "belief" and thus to you all other beliefs must be heresy and like all heretical believers and statements must be denied and derided. According to your "argument" then anyone wishing for further inquiry regarding the negation of a firmly and faithfully based belief is the equivalent of Williamson's blatant pose of "weighing the evidence". He stated at the outset he would not recant. His further statements are meant only to placate the Vatican (a power he apparently respects). His being slowly pushed off his position only proves that the Pope was correct in bringing him back into the church. On the outside he was a focal point and magnet for others of his ilk. Allowing him back now dilutes his influence and lets the church exert more say in what and where and to whom he speaks to.

117 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:00:40am

re: #69 Leonidas Hoplite

He is unrepentant. As long as he is unrepentant and within the fold of the Catholic Church, it can be viewed as an implicit endorsement of his views, or at the least as another example of the church casting a blind eye, as with all the years of child abuse within the ranks of the clergy. The policy should be zero tolerance.

I don't agree w/your assessment. The policy of minimizing the effects of sexual abuse of children was horrendous. However, it was certainly not confined to the Church - society at large minimized the effects and the crime - until it stopped minimizing and began responding appropriately. Nevertheless, as similar as it may appear to you, this is not precisely the same sort of issue. I believe the Pope is doing what can be done to ameliorate fast growing anti-Semitism in the West by neutralizing this schismatic movement. I think his actions are ahead of the curve, right and effective. Now I'm going to work.

118 abaleh  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:00:54am

re: #60 afrocity

Good Morning, I am a new hatchling from yesterday

Maybe Williamson should visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC

Welcome aboard

119 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:00:57am
120 lurking faith  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:01:30am

re: #75 MJ

Actually, the official statement very clearly refers to "the schismatic bishops". In other words, these men are NOT bishops in the Catholic Church proper, but in a breakaway sect that does not follow Rome's full doctrine.

Still, it would have been better and clearer, IMO, if that phrase had not been abbreviated to "the bishops" later in the statement.

121 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:01:46am

Arlen Specter Tries to Explain His Betrayal, Fails
—Gabriel Malor

[Link: ace.mu.nu...]

Why can't some guys just go away?

122 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:02:06am

re: #86 Daisy

Apparently not. Some of the posters should be aware of the routine anti-Christian crap emanating from the hearts and mouths of my Jewish relatives (and of course, in many cases, theirs too) before condemning any other hateful ignoramus - who now stands a better chance of changing his evil ways than he did before this outreach.

I'm off to work now, and so, will be bowing out of this particular bit of mayhem.

Daisy - you have more patience than I do.

Catholics, as everyone probably knows, have a sacrament of "confession".

This does not mean that we believe we therefore have a license to sin, because it can all be prayed away at confession.

This guy's infractions were so egregious that he was excommunicated, along with others.

Now he and the others have been reinstated, and he is still spouting the same-old same-old.

It's as if the Church, by reinstating him, has given him a "license" to continue to espouse the very things that caused his excommunication to begin with.

123 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:02:29am

re: #89 jorline

Based on Richard Williamson's thought process 3/4 or more of all historical data is not true. I use to think the Mayan civilization excised, but the only historical data left behind are a couple of ruins, a calender and several artist conceptions of their nation illustrated in National Geographic.

Living Holocaust survivors, pictures, film, persecutors and liberator's don't count for much I guess.

This guy has been in the church for how many years? The Pope better 86 him and fast.

Unfortunately, the pope can't 86 him. Williamson is full of shit, but his stupid opinions aren't doctrine-related, so the pope can't kick him out for that. I think, though, had he been more aware of what Williamson believes about the holocaust, he would've had second thoughts about lifting his excommunication. But, he can excommunicating him for still expressing support for the heresies of SSPX. If it were me, I wouldn't have lifted the order, just because he's SSPX, period.

124 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:03:11am

re: #106 MandyManners

Ixnay on that alktay.

What about a live fish? ;-)

125 beblebrox  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:03:12am

re: #63 Iron Fist

And the real powerhouse of the on-line marketplace: porn. You can get almost any kind of porn your mind can dream up with a good credit card and the few clicks of a mouse.

Progress!

Rule 34

126 Opinionated  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:03:51am

This discussion is way of the mark.

The issue should not be about this creep. There are many like him.

The issue is: what was the Pope thinking (and not just about crazy opinions concerning the Holocaust but the entire anti Semitic - anti Vatican II -beliefs of this society that Pope wished to reabsorb in the Church).

127 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:04:16am

re: #121 Nevergiveup

Arlen Specter Tries to Explain His Betrayal, Fails
—Gabriel Malor

[Link: ace.mu.nu...]

Why can't some guys just go away?

very nice catch....now I'm pissed all over again

128 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:04:27am

If you have a strong stomach and have not eaten yet, look at this love fest shown here:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

129 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:04:37am

re: #117 Daisy

I don't agree w/your assessment. The policy of minimizing the effects of sexual abuse of children was horrendous. However, it was certainly not confined to the Church - society at large minimized the effects and the crime - until it stopped minimizing and began responding appropriately. Nevertheless, as similar as it may appear to you, this is not precisely the same sort of issue. I believe the Pope is doing what can be done to ameliorate fast growing anti-Semitism in the West by neutralizing this schismatic movement. I think his actions are ahead of the curve, right and effective. Now I'm going to work.

I beleive the rise of anti-semitism in Europe is largely a function of large and unassimilated populations of muslims. If the catholic church thinks for one minute that this "rehabilitation" exercise is going to do anything to stem that tide, it is utterly delusional.

130 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:04:48am

re: #121 Nevergiveup

Arlen Specter Tries to Explain His Betrayal, Fails
—Gabriel Malor

[Link: ace.mu.nu...]

Why can't some guys just go away?

Then you have the Lamebrain from Maine, Susan Collins. The "stimulus" "has to be big to work"? What a dope she is.

131 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:04:52am
132 abaleh  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:04:55am

I guess SSPX has been getting too much flak from this debate:

Shoah-denier removed from Argentine seminary

133 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:05:03am

re: #127 albusteve

very nice catch....now I'm pissed all over again

Better than being pissed on I guess?

134 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:05:15am

re: #75 MJ

Pope Benedict XVI has lifted the personal penalty of excommunication incurred by four schismatic bishops belonging to the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X

He is a schismatic bishop. A schismatic bishop is not a Catholic bishop. He was ordained a bishop by the leader of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X and was excommunicated for it. SSPX is a splinter group of the church.

I know it might be hard for non Catholics to understand given the Catholic churches' arcane hierarchy and rules. But being called a schismatic bishop is like being called a pretend bishop.

He is not a RC Bishop.

135 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:05:31am

re: #126 Opinionated

This discussion is way of the mark.

The issue should not be about this creep. There are many like him.

The issue is: what was the Pope thinking (and not just about crazy opinions concerning the Holocaust but the entire anti Semitic - anti Vatican II -beliefs of this society that Pope wished to reabsorb in the Church).

Misplaced ecumenism.

136 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:05:36am

re: #128 Nevergiveup

Ha. That needs a caption contest.

137 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:05:39am

re: #114 WriterMom

There is that element. I actually am against weepy ceremonies, but I think Yad Vashem is quite remarkable.

Yad Vashem should be the only Holocaust museum (apart from the actual camps where it took place). To me it just seems excessive and wasteful to have these museums in places like West Pico Los Angeles, and Bloomfield Hills Michigan.

The money can be better spent on educational facilities and mikvaot for living Jews, not shrines to the dead.

138 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:05:43am

re: #121 Nevergiveup

Arlen Specter Tries to Explain His Betrayal, Fails
—Gabriel Malor

[Link: ace.mu.nu...]

Why can't some guys just go away?

Specter is my state's biggest disgrace.

139 x-wing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:05:46am

re: #121 Nevergiveup

Arlen Specter Tries to Explain His Betrayal, Fails
—Gabriel Malor

[Link: ace.mu.nu...]

Why can't some guys just go away?

We tried to retire his ass four years ago,but came up 10,000 votes short in the primary. I swear in 2010 if he makes it to the general, I'm voting for the Dem.

140 Gretchen  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:05:48am

If they guy holds no official capacity in the church, then what he believes about the Holocaust is not relevant. Holocaust belief isn't a tenant of the church. Far more babies have been killed via abortion if you view abortion as murder (as the church does) and the church does not excommunicate even the most strident pro-abortion politicians, although they have, in some cases been denied communion.

I think he's an idiot, however, it is not really the aim of the church to excommunicate idiots, and the Pope is right not to allow this nut's views weigh on his decision, as it is a view on an historical event not a church doctrine. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden have both misrepresented the church's view on abortion on television, and yet have not been excommunicated.

If he were allowed to be a practicing bishop, we could have a different discussion.

141 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:05:54am

re: #103 Ward Cleaver

I agree, but the Church definitely speaks out against abortion, and some bishops even refuse communion to politicians who are publicly pro-abortion. This is done for the politicians' own good, as receiving communion while in a state of mortal sin puts their souls in jeopardy of eternal damnation. Short of cracking pro-abortion laymen, priests, and bishops over the head with a stick, this is all they can do. Although sometimes I wish they'd do that.

/rap 'em on the heads with the crozier!

Communion should be refused to all of them. That is what is so frustrating.

142 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:05:59am

re: #105 WriterMom

Personally, I would advise not throwing out a bomb statement and then disappearing. If you have Jewish relatives and friends who only condemn Holocaust related hatred and denial and turn their backs on other issues of hate then they are idiots. But they are not idiots because they are Jews. They are likely influenced by their liberal passions and not their Jewish identity. I found your comment a bit odd actually. Kind of juvenille, like 'well this guy is bad, but I know Jews who are bad, too'.

Still here actually, but running late .. so gone in a flash .. I threw no bomb, only caught a few and attempted to defuse them. I have Jewish relatives/friends who hate Christians on principle. I've not noticed anyone throwing them out of their temples/family. Their hate is not endorsed by most, hopefully, this will ameliorate their ignorance.

143 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:06:10am

re: #95 Afrocity

FYI, from the rules above:

Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.

Just saying you might want to tread lightly for a while.

144 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:06:54am

re: #138 Captain Amercia

Specter is my state's biggest disgrace.

I'm still mad that Santorum supported him over Toomay in the primary back in '04.

145 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:06:57am
146 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:07:09am

re: #95 Afrocity

Well let's just kidnap Williamson and lock him in someone's basement, duct tape his mouth and slap him in the face with a dead fishsea kitten a couple of times.

Sorry, had to fix that...

147 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:07:31am

re: #140 Gretchen

If they guy holds no official capacity in the church, then what he believes about the Holocaust is not relevant. Holocaust belief isn't a tenant of the church. Far more babies have been killed via abortion if you view abortion as murder (as the church does)

That's probably the most offensive statement on this thread so far. THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE HOLOCAUST AND ABORTION. Don't use your views on abortion to minimize the issue of this Holocaust-denying, Jew-hating scumbag POS.

148 Diamond Bullet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:07:35am
Spiegel quotes Williamson saying he will not recant and that he would need more evidence to believe the Holocaust really happened. “If I find this proof, then I will correct myself,” he said. “But that will require some time.”

I suppose he could travel to Dachau and see the human fingernail marks clawed into the concrete walls of the "showers" like I did. But that might require a lengthy train ride and some walking, while the media is right there.

149 Opinionated  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:07:52am

re: #128 Nevergiveup

If you have a strong stomach and have not eaten yet, look at this love fest shown here:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Much of what is wrong with present day Israel can be realized by the fact that while Mubarak can travel to France, Israeli officials demean themselves continuously traveling to Egypt to deal with Mubarak - while he never reciprocates by going to Israel.

150 pingjockey  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:07:57am

re: #143 Ford_Prefect
I still like the idea a whackin' him with a fish ala' Monty Python!

151 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:08:50am

re: #18 Lawrence Schmerel

The Pope did not know of Williamson’s views on the Holocaust when he lifted the excommunication?

I find that hard to believe.

He KNOWS them now.

152 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:09:07am

re: #142 Daisy

Like I said, they are likely more influenced by their liberalism.

153 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:09:15am

re: #117 Daisy

I believe the Pope is doing what can be done to ameliorate fast growing anti-Semitism in the West by neutralizing this schismatic movement.

Now, that's laughable. Sooo, what is the evidence that the pope is trying to "ameliorate" antisemitism? by reinstating (bringing back into the church an excommunicated) antisemite? yeah, that makes a whole lotta sense....

154 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:09:16am
155 pingjockey  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:09:40am

Are the Israeli elections tomorrow? I saw where Olmerde' has endorsed Livni.

156 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:09:41am

re: #95 Afrocity

Well let's just kidnap Williamson and lock him in someone's basement, duct tape his mouth and slap him in the face with a dead fish a couple of times.

Well, I don't expect the Spanish Inquisition will go after him.

157 lurking faith  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:09:42am

re: #99 Jetpilot1101

No, he said what he said and if he didn't mean it the way it was taken, then he should clarify.


No - you transposed "is" and "it" when you read his post. You misread his words and took offense at something that is different than what he said.

If you want additional clarification or commentary from him, fine, but please stop claiming he said something he didn't say.

158 soxfan4life  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:09:42am

re: #130 Ward Cleaver

Then you have the Lamebrain from Maine, Susan Collins. The "stimulus" "has to be big to work"? What a dope she is.

When it calls for money to provide dental care in Maine it is wrong.

159 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:09:45am

re: #139 x-wing

We tried to retire his ass four years ago,but came up 10,000 votes short in the primary. I swear in 2010 if he makes it to the general, I'm voting for the Dem.

Pat Twoomey should have wiped the floor with that RINO. Instead, GWB backed Specter, and the rest is (infuriating) history.

160 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:10:16am

re: #141 reine.de.tout

Communion should be refused to all of them. That is what is so frustrating.

I know; I agree. If the pope wanted to get radical, he'd mass excommunicate them. But technically, they excommunicate themselves by publicly espousing those beliefs, and when they receive communion, they're bringing condemnation (from God) upon themselves. They'll have to answer for it someday, but it won't be on this earth.

161 abaleh  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:10:51am

re: #155 pingjockey

Are the Israeli elections tomorrow? I saw where Olmerde' has endorsed Livni.

yup, tomorrow.

162 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:10:52am

re: #155 pingjockey

Are the Israeli elections tomorrow? I saw where Olmerde' has endorsed Livni.

a good reason to vote against her then

163 pingjockey  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:11:01am

re: #156 Kosh's Shadow
"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition".

164 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:11:31am

re: #122 reine.de.tout

"It's as if the Church, by reinstating him, has given him a "license" to continue to espouse the very things that caused his excommunication to begin with."

He wasn't excommunicated for his Holocaust denial. He was excommunicated for joining a schismatic faction originally part of the Church. Had he been spewing Holocaust denial in his capacity as a Catholic priest, that would have been cause for excommunication. He's no longer a functioning priest, was never a Bishop (acding to the RC Church) .. just an ordinary slob (with widespread appeal to European Jew haters) being, in my opinion, neutralized by his inclusion back in the fold, so to speak.

165 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:11:49am

re: #105 WriterMom

re: #105 WriterMom

Personally, I would advise not throwing out a bomb statement and then disappearing. If you have Jewish relatives and friends who only condemn Holocaust related hatred and denial and turn their backs on other issues of hate then they are idiots. But they are not idiots because they are Jews. They are likely influenced by their liberal passions and not their Jewish identity. I found your comment a bit odd actually. Kind of juvenille, like 'well this guy is bad, but I know Jews who are bad, too'.

I think his point is you can be a bigoted idiot and still be a Jew. So why can't you be a bigoted idiot Catholic? This guy does not speak for church anymore than any other lay person.

Neither religions make a point of punting bigots. They need people to fill the seats at Temple/Church.

166 jcw46  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:11:52am

re: #106 MandyManners

Ixnay on that alktay.

Perhaps I overestimate them but I think they were going to extremes to point out that as repugnant (and ignorant) as holocaust denial is, it's not the same as firing rockets into Israel or beheading soldiers or blowing up innocent civilians because of their religion/ethnicity.
Williamson should be scorned and ignored. That the media doesn't should speak volumes about their true beliefs (mostly concerned with anti-Christianity but also their anti-Semitism).
All this outrage does is feed those who despise the Jews and WISH that the holocaust didn't happen or that the proof didn't exist. They want the idea of Holocaust Denial to be in the news so as to infect others with the idea. He has little actual power within the church. Continued exposure will only make him seem more than he is. Shaming and disdain will do more to silence this person than outrage and publicity.

167 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:12:03am
168 Afrocity  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:12:10am

re: #111 Alouette

That's too bad because I think these museums do more good. The problem the National Holocaust Museum had in its creation, and it took nearly a decade of planning, was whose point of view of the holocaust to include.

It has taken longer for a museum dedicated to African Americans/Slavery to appear on the mall. I would never say oh look at those white folks salivating over those shackles. Slavery and the Holocaust are both undeniable human tragedies which cause collective trauma amongst millions of victims. We must allow these events to be remember in order to facilitate healing and understanding.

169 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:12:13am

re: #160 Ward Cleaver

I know; I agree. If the pope wanted to get radical, he'd mass excommunicate them. But technically, they excommunicate themselves by publicly espousing those beliefs, and when they receive communion, they're bringing condemnation (from God) upon themselves. They'll have to answer for it someday, but it won't be on this earth.

Yes, true.
But it sure makes it hard to teach the young 'uns, when this is the example they see.

170 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:12:52am

re: #158 soxfan4life

When it calls for money to provide dental care in Maine it is wrong.

Obama and the Dems aren't stupid; by doling out all kinds of cash to state and local governments, they've intentionally structured the bill to pit those same state and local governments against the Republicans in Congress.

171 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:12:59am

re: #165 jester6

re: #105 WriterMom

I think his point is you can be a bigoted idiot and still be a Jew. So why can't you be a bigoted idiot Catholic? This guy does not speak for church anymore than any other lay person.

Neither religions make a point of punting bigots. They need people to fill the seats at Temple/Church.

the show must go on!...

172 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:13:07am

re: #134 jester6

He is a schismatic bishop. A schismatic bishop is not a Catholic bishop. He was ordained a bishop by the leader of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X and was excommunicated for it. SSPX is a splinter group of the church.

I know it might be hard for non Catholics to understand given the Catholic churches' arcane hierarchy and rules. But being called a schismatic bishop is like being called a pretend bishop.

He is not a RC Bishop.

The letter from the USCB calls him a schismatic bishop once and then refers to him as Bishop in several other sentences. While I do understand Williamson is a schismatic bishop, I think it's disingenuous to say that non-Catholics find it hard to distinguish between bishops when the USCB itself can't seem to make that distinction.

173 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:13:17am

re: #104 Jetpilot1101

re: #99 Jetpilot1101

The I apologize to Angus.

re: #157 lurking faith

No - you transposed "is" and "it" when you read his post. You misread his words and took offense at something that is different than what he said.

If you want additional clarification or commentary from him, fine, but please stop claiming he said something he didn't say.

See my #104 above, I apologized.

174 Afrocity  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:13:24am

re: #126 Opinionated

Well isn't it a premise of Catholicism to be forgiven of your sins?

175 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:13:52am

re: #165 jester6

I didn't say you can't be an idiot and a Jew. I have them in my own family. I am saying that they are more likely influenced by LIBERALISM than JUDAISM. Capish?

Secondly, there is a big difference between what a lay member of a church or synagogue believes and spouts than someone with official status. Or do you not see any difference?

176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:14:02am

re: #168 Afrocity


Good Morning. Where have you been all of our lives. Excellent.

177 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:14:03am

re: #174 Afrocity

Well isn't it a premise of Catholicism to be forgiven of your sins?

Uh- that's Christianity in general.

178 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:14:13am

re: #169 reine.de.tout

Yes, true.
But it sure makes it hard to teach the young 'uns, when this is the example they see.

I know. Sadly, it's the world we live in. We just have to teach our kids the difference.

179 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:14:18am

re: #164 Daisy

"It's as if the Church, by reinstating him, has given him a "license" to continue to espouse the very things that caused his excommunication to begin with."

He wasn't excommunicated for his Holocaust denial. He was excommunicated for joining a schismatic faction originally part of the Church. Had he been spewing Holocaust denial in his capacity as a Catholic priest, that would have been cause for excommunication. He's no longer a functioning priest, was never a Bishop (acding to the RC Church) .. just an ordinary slob (with widespread appeal to European Jew haters) being, in my opinion, neutralized by his inclusion back in the fold, so to speak.

Daisy - I understand. The Pope is looking at him like he is an average Joe.

But the guy himself is continuing to present himself in public as if he were a bishop, and his words do have influence. That cannot be ignored, imo.

Again, how do we teach our young ones what is right and wrong, with this guy very publicly continuing to espouse everything that got him excommunicated with to begin with?

180 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:14:26am

re: #68 Daisy

okay, I misread everything I have read about this guy then. He is not a Bishop, he is not a priest, he is simply a Catholic man that attends church.

Seems interesting that Merkel would insinuate herself into this situation if that was the case, her levels of information being that much better than mine.

My comment about the Hail Mary's was tongue in cheek, I apologize if I offended anyone with that, not being catholic, and not understanding the confession principle, I admittedly used knowledge from society and friends about what happened if they skipped communion, confession,or didn't do as the Priest said, in the minds of kids.

In my opinion, lying is the worst of sins, it is the begining of all sin, and should be handled as such.

181 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:14:36am
182 avanti  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:14:42am

re: #130 Ward Cleaver

Then you have the Lamebrain from Maine, Susan Collins. The "stimulus" "has to be big to work"? What a dope she is.

Latest polling on the Stimulus bills handling by the POTUS andCongress

183 Marvo76  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:14:54am

re: #43 karmic_inquisitor

I remember when I was in college sitting in a computer room with a couple of friends screwing around with what was then the internet. Most of it was slow modems moving data between university computers with a few research computers with these rare ".com" and ".mil" addresses.

"How powerful" we thought. This thing was going to revolutionize civilization. Put access to learning and knowledge in the hands of so many. It would cement the role of rationality in modern life and bring so many around the world into one rational, fact based community of thinking people.

Well that hasn't happened. Instead we have a system that produces undue influence for those who reject reason and rationality and promote "feel good" thinking and conspiracy theories. And it has been a big boon for those who simply hate.

So we get Al Qaeda getting a free worldwide tactical communications and propaganda system. We get 9/11 troofers. We get the worlds greatest force for wealth creation (the United States) no rejecting wealth creation for the sake of "Hope, Change, and Spreading The Wealth Around". And then we get a European cleric demanding evidence of the holocaust which can be delivered to him instantaneously if he just sat down and asked for it.

Truly sad and surprising.


Yeah but we did get this site so it ain't all bad....

184 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:15:00am

re: #160 Ward Cleaver

I know; I agree. If the pope wanted to get radical, he'd mass excommunicate them. But technically, they excommunicate themselves by publicly espousing those beliefs, and when they receive communion, they're bringing condemnation (from God) upon themselves. They'll have to answer for it someday, but it won't be on this earth.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I know that sometimes they do the right thing - like when they refused to give communion to Kerry for his abortion stance.

185 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:15:22am

re: #167 Iron Fist

You gonna get deleted again.

186 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:15:22am

'Hamas attacks tied to vote'

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Gee in America, ya just have to get a phony divers license and you vote?

187 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:15:37am

re: #170 Ward Cleaver

Obama and the Dems aren't stupid; by doling out all kinds of cash to state and local governments, they've intentionally structured the bill to pit those same state and local governments against the Republicans in Congress.

pandering to the point of criminal enterprise....it's dishonest and unethical

188 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:15:52am

re: #179 reine.de.tout

The Pope is looking at him like he is an average Joe.

Clearly, he is not regarded as such by the world...like Hutton Gibson, he's a wacko Jew-hater, but has no official status, he is an individual with a small number of individual admirers. He is not a part of anything official.

189 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:15:58am

re: #174 Afrocity

IMHO, Forgiveness (as a Christian) is a result of repentance. You can be forgiven when you ask for forgiveness (admit you were wrong).

190 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:16:05am

re: #186 Nevergiveup

'Hamas attacks tied to vote'

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Gee in America, ya just have to get a phony divers license and you vote?


ACORN lives!

191 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:16:11am

re: #164 Daisy

yeah, as we've gathered from reading the newspapers, Holocaust denial is A-Okay with the Catholic church - no problems there. (Do you notice any cognitive dissonance about that claim of the pope's wanting to "ameliorate fast-growing antisemitism?")

192 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:16:12am

re: #174 Afrocity

Well isn't it a premise of Catholicism to be forgiven of your sins?

If you repent.
I have serious doubts about this guy's state of repentence.

193 abaleh  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:16:13am

re: #165 jester6

re: #105 WriterMom

I think his point is you can be a bigoted idiot and still be a Jew. So why can't you be a bigoted idiot Catholic? This guy does not speak for church anymore than any other lay person.

Neither religions make a point of punting bigots. They need people to fill the seats at Temple/Church.

He was actually (until very recently) the head of a seminary, which I believe means he was in charge of training and educating other priests. If he was a lunatic screaming stuff on the street corner, this wouldn't be an issue, but he is a man with an influence over a sizeable 'flock' and in charge of the education of other priests, so it is a big issue.

194 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:17:04am
195 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:17:18am

re: #192 reine.de.tout

If you repent.
I have serious doubts about this guy's state of repentence.

As do I. he still believes this nonsense, so repentence is lacking.

196 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:17:35am

Damn, getting downright nasty in here early!

197 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:17:37am

re: #186 Nevergiveup

The Olmert-Livni-Barak Triumverate of Loosers just went into Gaza because of the elections. Now they are trying to scare people away from voting right...I hope it backfires big time.

198 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:17:56am

re: #196 rightside

Damn, getting downright nasty in here early!

Keep your heads down! Fire in the hole!

199 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:18:43am

re: #174 Afrocity

Well isn't it a premise of Catholicism to be forgiven of your sins?

If you are referring to the Act of Confession, Yes.
However, "sins" are believed to be forgiven in all the Christian faiths. However, you must renounce the sin and make good intention to not repeat the sin.
Some christian faith, also believe in penance. Making atonement for the sin.

200 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:18:55am
201 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:18:57am

re: #186 Nevergiveup

'Hamas attacks tied to vote'

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Gee in America, ya just have to get a phony divers license and you vote?

Hamas is doing what their Iranian masters want. Bring chaos that will bring the Mahdi.
They'll get an Israeli government that, I hope, will finally have "Operation Cast the Hamassholes Out"

202 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:02am

re: #196 rightside

Damn, getting downright nasty in here early!

Religion, evolution, Boston Red Sox Baseball tend to do that?

203 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:03am

This has to be the supreme irony story of the day. Hamas claims that Fatah killed one of its thugs Fatah/PA had in custody. The PA claims that the thug committed suicide.

It's not like Hamas hadn't done the same to Fatah thugs in the past (defenestrations) or murdered suspected collaborators in response to the success of taking out Hamas thugs during Operation Cast Lead.

204 opnion  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:04am

re: #182 avanti

Latest polling on the Stimulus bills handling by the POTUS andCongress


Seriously Avanti, a carp fish would have high approval in it's third week in office.

205 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:04am

re: #192 reine.de.tout
"I have serious doubts about this guy's state of repentence."
I don't.
He hasn't and doesn't repent. Period.

206 darkster2400  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:19am

What an arrogant SOB.

207 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:20am

re: #67 jester6

You seem to have a better handle on the Canon law. Can't a Priest be defrocked? When you are defrocked do you become a lay priest or just a lay person? Is excommunication totally separate from being defrocked?

Still, as I have said before this person was never a RC Bishop and that simply cannot be said enough. If MSM reported on every RC Priest with some crazy theories there would be no room for any other news.

when you are ordained a priest, you are a priest forever...

208 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:26am

re: #196 rightside

You ain't seen nothing yet.

Did you hear the one about the Creationist abortion doctor who studied evolutionary biology after he went to Catholic seminary? So, he walks into a bar with Mel Gibson and picks up some of the readings of Pope Pius and starts to hum a few bars of the Internationale....

///

209 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:28am
210 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:36am

re: #188 WriterMom

Clearly, he is not regarded as such by the world...like Hutton Gibson, he's a wacko Jew-hater, but has no official status, he is an individual with a small number of individual admirers. He is not a part of anything official.

Well, exactly, the word does not regard him as "average Joe", even though that's what he is.

He contributes by presenting himself as more than "average Joe".

211 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:45am

re: #116 jcw46

The difference between Williamson and a creationist is one of degree. It's possible it's also a difference in kind, but that remains to be seen.

Williamson is a religious bigot who denies the holocaust, because the idea that Jew-haters, of whom he is one, could mass murder Jews discredits all Jew-haters, including him.

Creationists are religious people who believe that G-d created the universe, and that the method employed by science to observe, measure, analyze, and understand the natural world somehow rejects or negates their belief in G-d. They really believe they are defending G-d and religion from atheism, which they equate with science. They haven't commenced mass murders yet of scientists or teachers, but they are attempting to mandate teaching their religious beliefs in public school science classrooms.

This is profoundly wrongheaded for many reasons, but it hasn't yet escalated to mass murder. Might it? If so, the difference between Williamson and creationists is one of degree only.

212 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:19:53am

re: #202 Nevergiveup

lol, it's not boobies and beer!

213 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:20:04am

re: #202 Nevergiveup

Religion, evolution, Boston Red Sox Baseball tend to do that?


Screw those Red Sox! Heh.

214 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:20:18am

re: #210 reine.de.tout

Yes, I agree.

215 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:20:27am

re: #212 rightside

lol, it's not boobies and beer!

Boob thread!

216 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:20:37am

re: #208 WriterMom

General Quarters! All hands man your battle stations!

217 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:20:41am

re: #207 phoenixgirl
Really? Then what is de-frocking (if anything - just reading the thread here) if not taking away someone's "priestly" status?

218 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:20:48am

re: #202 Nevergiveup

Religion, evolution, Boston Red Sox Baseball tend to do that?

Hey, Boston Red Sox baseball is a religion! And we refuse to evolve!

219 x-wing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:21:00am

re: #159 Captain Amercia

Pat Twoomey should have wiped the floor with that RINO. Instead, GWB backed Specter, and the rest is (infuriating) history.

Yes he should have. What really got mepissed me off was that statement he made after being re-elected. Don't remember the exact words, but more or less "if you think I'm going to tow the party line, you can kiss my ass".

220 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:21:08am

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

That's what I kept trying to say. The 'anti-Christian' Jews that I know are LIBERALS first, Jews second. Their liberalism is the guiding force of their life and views-not Judaism.

221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:21:24am

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

So, you are not a "slipperred pantaloon" after all.

Well stated.

222 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:21:24am

re: #218 Ford_Prefect

Hey, Boston Red Sox baseball is a religion! And we refuse to evolve!

Hey who's this A-Rod guy?

223 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:21:30am

re: #216 rightside

Man handle the boobie stations!

224 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:21:31am

re: #217 realwest

Really? Then what is de-frocking (if anything - just reading the thread here) if not taking away someone's "priestly" status?

It's a frocking disgrace, if you ask me! :)

225 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:21:35am

re: #190 Captain Amercia

ACORN lives!

and getting 4bil in payola...sweet deal eh?
I hate the feds

226 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:22:09am

re: #215 Captain Amercia

I noticed your avatar shows someone pointing an assualt weapon at me. I am offended, and you should be fired.

/sarc

227 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:22:32am

re: #217 realwest

It's the process of reinventing yourself as a virgin even though you have some frocking experience.

/kidding

228 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:22:52am

re: #222 Nevergiveup

Hey who's this A-Rod guy?

You mean A-Roid? He's just another overpaid princess that can't come through in the clutch. Kinda like the Dem's in Washington.

229 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:22:57am

re: #226 rightside

I noticed your avatar shows someone pointing an assualt weapon at me. I am offended, and you should be fired.

/sarc

Only in Wisconsin!

230 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:22:59am
231 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:23:04am

re: #223 WriterMom

Heynow, how did you know my expertise?

232 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:23:20am

re: #140 Gretchen

Substitute "mass murder" for "holocaust", and you'll agree that the church proscribes mass murder. The church also adheres to the Ten Commandments in Torah. The book of Esther, a Tanak (Old Testament) account of an early attempted genocide of the Jewish people, and part of the Christian canon, cements the church's position against genocide.

The Catholic Church opposes genocide. The Catholic Church condemns holocaust. The only issue is the degree of punishment to be meted out for defending mass murder.

233 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:23:31am

re: #228 Ford_Prefect

You mean A-Roid? He's just another overpaid princess that can't come through in the clutch. Kinda like the Dem's in Washington.

And if he were playing for the Sox? :)

234 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:23:36am

re: #172 MJ

The letter from the USCB calls him a schismatic bishop once and then refers to him as Bishop in several other sentences. While I do understand Williamson is a schismatic bishop, I think it's disingenuous to say that non-Catholics find it hard to distinguish between bishops when the USCB itself can't seem to make that distinction.

The problem is his title is the same and the MSM is not providing any context.

Captain John Smith, USN and Captain John Smith, Podunk PD are both captains and it would be correct to refer to them as such. But there is a big difference.

235 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:24:35am
236 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:24:39am

re: #229 Captain Amercia

Only in Wisconsin!

Huh?

237 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:24:49am

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

Naso Tang once remarked to me that it's so difficult for people of differing religious beliefs to discuss religion-based topics because each person is necessarily telling the other one that he is wrong.

One must keep one's head and one's patience in these types of discussions.

I think one other point you made is that in the US, Christians are not as anti-semitic as Christians in Europe.

Since I have not had the pleasure of knowing many Europeans, then perhaps that is why I find anti-semitism so very difficult to comprehend. It just makes no sense.

238 pingjockey  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:24:52am

Later folks. To all our California Lizards, you have my deepest sympathies. FNC talking about the state withholding money from mandated state programs to the counties. What a frakkin' mess.

239 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:24:52am

re: #211 quickjustice
Whoa!

They haven't commenced mass murders yet of scientists or teachers, but they are attempting to mandate teaching their religious beliefs in public school science classrooms.

This is profoundly wrongheaded for many reasons, but it hasn't yet escalated to mass murder. Might it?

[emphasis, realwest] Just a tad paranoid this morning aren't we?
Linking this asshole Williamson to creationists is something of a stretch, but this is also about the Pope - do you REALLY think that this Pope is gonna call for mass murder or somesuch?

240 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:24:55am

re: #233 Captain Amercia

And if he were playing for the Sox? :)

He would be just another overpaid princess that can't come through in the clutch. Kinda like the Dem's in WashingtonBoston.

241 Golem Akbar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:25:13am

Good morning Lizard maniacs. The sun is peaking through the clouds, the rain has stopped, and it is absolutely beautiful out there. [it's Monday and I feel good? Wha happened?]

242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:25:17am

Dilemma? Dog sound asleep (dead to the world!) in lap. Gotta pee.

243 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:25:18am

re: #217 realwest

Really? Then what is de-frocking (if anything - just reading the thread here) if not taking away someone's "priestly" status?

yes really, defrocked means you can not perform your priestly duties, for example, officiate a Mass... or take part in sacramental ceremonies

244 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:25:49am

re: #235 buzzsawmonkey

Makes me happy every time I think of it.

245 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:26:05am

re: #230 Iron Fist

I certainly hope not. That's not over the top. I'm just suggesting some accessories for his outfit.

I think she's a she.

246 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:26:10am

re: #242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dilemma? Dog sound asleep (dead to the world!) in lap. Gotta pee.

Dogs lick their balls and roll in shit . . .I don't think it will care.

247 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:26:14am

re: #236 Creeping Eruption

Huh?

Here's a clip of the story.

248 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:26:35am

re: #233 Captain Amercia

And if he were playing for the Sox? :)

He's still be that. I'm a huge Yankee fan and I HATE him. I've always HATED him. He is only interested in his stats and is a huge disruption to any team unfortunate to have him. You might notice that EVERY team he was ever on hated him. I just wish there was some/any way to unload him. Shit we could sign Manny. At least that distraction hits in the clutch!

249 Golem Akbar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:26:57am

re: #238 pingjockey

Later folks. To all our California Lizards, you have my deepest sympathies. FNC talking about the state withholding money from mandated state programs to the counties. What a frakkin' mess.

I'm late to the thread, but you do know that the California State Houses are both about 2/3 Democrats. They have nearly totally control of the state.

250 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:26:57am

re: #226 rightside

I noticed your avatar shows someone pointing an assualt weapon at me. I am offended, and you should be fired.

/sarc

If I were the safety officer on the firing line, I'd take his rifle away from him and remove his firing privileges from him for the week.

251 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:26:57am

Lighting Forest Fires as an act of Jihad

252 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:27:32am

re: #248 Nevergiveup

He's still be that. I'm a huge Yankee fan and I HATE him. I've always HATED him. He is only interested in his stats and is a huge disruption to any team unfortunate to have him. You might notice that EVERY team he was ever on hated him. I just wish there was some/any way to unload him. Shit we could sign Manny. At least that distraction hits in the clutch!

And he was the only one who showed up when the Dodgers played the Phillies in the playoffs last season. Of course, we still beat them. Heh.

253 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:27:36am

re: #247 Captain Amercia

Here's a clip of the story.

Thats right. forgot about that (even though it was last week).

254 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:27:37am

re: #224 Captain Amercia
and
re: #227 WriterMom
Thanks a lot y'all - but that was a serious question I asked of phoenixgirl - I honestly don't know the answer to it; she said basically one a priest, always a priest (in response to excommunication) and I wondered what "defrocked" meant then.

255 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:27:40am

re: #236 Creeping Eruption

We're talking about this.

256 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:27:51am

re: #248 Nevergiveup

He's still be that. I'm a huge Yankee fan and I HATE him. I've always HATED him. He is only interested in his stats and is a huge disruption to any team unfortunate to have him. You might notice that EVERY team he was ever on hated him. I just wish there was some/any way to unload him. Shit we could sign Manny. At least that distraction hits in the clutch!

Only if he feels like it. You can have him.

257 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:27:57am

Ah, baseball talk. Spring is just around the corner.

258 soxfan4life  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:28:02am

re: #233 Captain Amercia

And if he were playing for the Sox? :)

Best evah!

259 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:28:17am

re: #243 phoenixgirl

yes really, defrocked means you can not perform your priestly duties, for example, officiate a Mass... or take part in sacramental ceremonies

Williamson - was he ordained a priest by the Church or by the sect he was in?

WHY DOES HE CONTINUE TO WEAR PRIESTLY GARB, if he is no longer (or never was) a priest ordained by the Church?

260 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:28:32am

re: #251 karmic_inquisitor

Lighting Forest Fires as an act of Jihad

I read that earlier on Drudge. It's definately worth more investigation, IMHO. If these asshats are setting these forest fires as an act of jihad, it should be dealt with accordingly.

261 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:28:37am
262 Golem Akbar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:28:40am

re: #257 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ah, baseball talk. Spring is just around the corner.


I can't relate: steroids.

263 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:29:02am

re: #259 reine.de.tout

Williamson - was he ordained a priest by the Church or by the sect he was in?

WHY DOES HE CONTINUE TO WEAR PRIESTLY GARB, if he is no longer (or never was) a priest ordained by the Church?

chicks dig it

264 Afrocity  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:29:02am

Okay he has not repented. I am only saying that perhaps, just perhaps the Pope is allowing him back in the church to enlighten him. I may be comparing hamentashen to fried chicken here but I once had a colleague who said to my face that Slavery was a good thing for African Americians, he stated glibly that "Afterall it got you guys here and you have been 'white man's burden' ever since..."

I could have not become friends with this man but I chose to. I became a pest by inviting him to movies and coffee houses to hear poetry. At the time I was a democrat and he was a Republican. Reluctantly he began to take me up on my invitations and would go and he seemed uncomfortable to be with a black person. This was Texas after all. We became good friends. One day he asked me "why do you want to hang out with me when I said the most horrid things about your race?"

I said because I wanted to prove to you that they were not true.

265 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:29:03am

re: #250 notutopia

If I were the safety officer on the firing line, I'd take his rifle away from him and remove his firing privileges from him for the week.


Just don't take the flag!

266 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:29:06am

re: #243 phoenixgirl
Uh, but if defrocked means you can't perform your priestly duties, can you still perform them if you've been excommunicated but not de-frocked?
Sorry, just genuine ignorance on my part.

267 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:29:13am
268 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:29:17am

re: #193 abaleh

I am pretty sure it was a schismatic seminary as well. Since until recently he had been excommunicated he cannot participate ordaining priests to the regular church. They might have been schismatic priests to serve at their "chapels".

269 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:29:42am

re: #250 notutopia

If I were the safety officer on the firing line, I'd take his rifle away from him and remove his firing privileges from him for the week.

re: #255 rightside

We're talking about this.

I am too. Not cap America's handgun.

270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:29:55am

re: #235 buzzsawmonkey

You liked that "slippered pantaloon" comment, I can tell.

Would be a cool nic.

271 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:29:58am

re: #258 soxfan4life

Best evah!

Couldn't disagree more. Never wanted him, glad we don't have him. I believe it would be 90 years and counting if we had made that deal in 2003.

272 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:30:15am

re: #250 notutopia

I'm with you on that, but I would have not let him commenced firing since he is wearing no hearing or eyesight protection.

273 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:30:24am

re: #234 jester6

The problem is his title is the same and the MSM is not providing any context.

Captain John Smith, USN and Captain John Smith, Podunk PD are both captains and it would be correct to refer to them as such. But there is a big difference.

I certainly wouldn't deny that some in the media are using this as a club to to beat Ratzinger. But Ratzinger gave them the club which to beat him with his total indifference to world opinion, to the opinion of many, if not most Catholics, and especially the opinion of Jews. The longer this keeps up, the less moral authority the Vatican retains.

274 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:30:33am

The rumor going around is that one of the 4 people who outed A-Rod about failing his steroid test is is EX-WIFE. Pay back is a bitch.

275 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:30:37am

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It is interesting that Williamson the Denier now claims to require time to examine the evidence of the Holocaust.
One would have thought that a purported Catholic Bishop with an ounce of integrity would have carefully examined the evidence BEFORE he denied the Holocaust.
Pardon me if I am skeptical of his bona fides.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

276 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:30:42am

re: #260 Honorary Yooper

I read that earlier on Drudge. It's definately worth more investigation, IMHO. If these asshats are setting these forest fires as an act of jihad, it should be dealt with accordingly.

Yes. What got me in the article is that "scholars" justify it on the basis of "eye-for-an-eye". Anyone here ever set a forest fire in a muslim country?

277 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:30:44am

re: #255 rightside

We're talking about this.

What is surprising is that Beaver Dam is a pretty small town, and being Wisconsin, most people probably hunt and fish. Outside Milwaukee and Madison, guns just are not a big deal.

278 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:31:14am

re: #267 Iron Fist

Yes, I think you are right that Afrocity is female, but I was referring to Williamson, who is male.

OK, duh, must be time for me to bow out.

279 Afrocity  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:31:33am

re: #258 soxfan4life

I went to grad school in Boston. I love me some Red Sox!

280 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:31:35am

re: #252 Captain Amercia

OT, but is there a reason your nic is Amercia, vice America?

281 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:31:57am

re: #276 karmic_inquisitor

Yes. What got me in the article is that "scholars" justify it on the basis of "eye-for-an-eye". Anyone here ever set a forest fire in a muslim country?

Do they even have forests in muslim countries?
/Do I really need the tag?

282 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:32:03am

re: #275 Spare O'Lake

Wow, your post just broke my broswser!

283 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:32:05am

re: #274 Nevergiveup

The rumor going around is that one of the 4 people who outed A-Rod about failing his steroid test is is EX-WIFE. Pay back is a bitch.

Ha! Let him go cry on Madonna's shoulder.

284 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:32:10am

re: #275 Spare O'Lake

I think you broke the thread!

285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:32:26am

re: #280 rightside

Never even noticed that. Course, didn't notice opnion either until someone pointed it out.

286 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:32:38am

re: #279 Afrocity

I went to grad school in Boston. I love me some Red Sox!

I knew I liked you!

287 soxfan4life  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:32:42am

re: #271 Ford_Prefect

Couldn't disagree more. Never wanted him, glad we don't have him. I believe it would be 90 years and counting if we had made that deal in 2003.

I agree with you, just some of the rabid ones around here would be saying so. Just like how devasted they were when he went to the Yankees.Is it Thursday yet?

288 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:33:36am

re: #273 MJ

I certainly wouldn't deny that some in the media are using this as a club to to beat Ratzinger. But Ratzinger gave them the club which to beat him with his total indifference to world opinion, to the opinion of many, if not most Catholics, and especially the opinion of Jews. The longer this keeps up, the less moral authority the Vatican retains.

The Pope's concern is not "media perception" or public relations.

It is, as you say, the moral authority of the Vatican and the Church.

And today, with communication around the world able to happen the minute somebody hits "post this", public relations is a part of what is needed to retain moral authority. He needs to start being concerned about perception.

289 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:33:49am

re: #264 Afrocity

Okay he has not repented. I am only saying that perhaps, just perhaps the Pope is allowing him back in the church to enlighten him. I may be comparing hamentashen to fried chicken here but I once had a colleague who said to my face that Slavery was a good thing for African Americians, he stated glibly that "Afterall it got you guys here and you have been 'white man's burden' ever since..."

I could have not become friends with this man but I chose to. I became a pest by inviting him to movies and coffee houses to hear poetry. At the time I was a democrat and he was a Republican. Reluctantly he began to take me up on my invitations and would go and he seemed uncomfortable to be with a black person. This was Texas after all. We became good friends. One day he asked me "why do you want to hang out with me when I said the most horrid things about your race?"

I said because I wanted to prove to you that they were not true.

Wow. You are a most patient and persistent person. I value your humility and quite honestly, your fortitude.
Has he apologized for his hatred and bigotry though?

290 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:33:53am

re: #239 realwest

You're not paranoid if the little green men really are out to get you! ;-) I perceive creationists to be "religious" people prepared to resort to lies, distortions, and deceit about science and evolution to defend their G-d from "atheists", whom they perceive as synonymous with scientists. They feel very strongly about this. It's emotional, not logical. Might one or more of them be prepared to murder for the cause? In some cases, "Christian" abortion opponents have been.

If creationists fail in their political efforts to force religion down the throats of public schoolchildren, what might they do next to defend the Lord? I admit: That's speculation.

291 jcw46  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:33:57am

re: #191 J.S.

yeah, as we've gathered from reading the newspapers, Holocaust denial is A-Okay with the Catholic church - no problems there. (Do you notice any cognitive dissonance about that claim of the pope's wanting to "ameliorate fast-growing antisemitism?")

Isn't the key here "reading the newspapers"? Like the media has NO agenda and wouldn't THINK of highlighting the stupidities of people to use as a label for an entire group. Gee WHAT other large political organization uses GROUP THINK to influence others?

The media in general is anti-Religion. In particular they hate:

1a. Catholics
1b. Christians (especially southern baptists)
2. Jews (if they're conservative/fundamentalist/Hasidic or live in Israel)
3. All others (who cares what these little people in 3rd world countries get up with their weird "religions"/cults.)
.
.
.
.
.
.
1000. The "Religion Of Peace" (this rarely happens because as we all know; the followers of "The Religion Of Peace" will burn our buildings, printing presses and torture/kill our journalists if we tell the truth)

292 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:34:08am

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I saw that first thing, but was too new to mention it. I was worried about opnion's trollhammer lol

293 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:34:23am

re: #287 soxfan4life

I agree with you, just some of the rabid ones around here would be saying so. Just like how devasted they were when he went to the Yankees.Is it Thursday yet?

As a Yankee fan, we are cursed, we will not win again till A-Rod is gone.

294 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:34:33am

re: #280 rightside

OT, but is there a reason your nic is Amercia, vice America?

Because I messed up when I was a hatchling. Didn't notice the typo until afterward, and don't think it can be corrected now. D'oh!

295 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:34:33am

re: #282 rightside

Wow, your post just broke my broswser!

LOL. Sorry, but it's that darn Ubersarc function - it gets away from me sometimes.

296 soxfan4life  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:34:52am

re: #279 Afrocity

I went to grad school in Boston. I love me some Red Sox!


Always will, but living in Boston this time of year makes me believe I suffer from some sort of mental illness.

297 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:34:54am

2 days, 23 hours, 29 minutes!

298 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:35:39am

re: #294 Captain Amercia
I am sure if you emailed Charles, he could correct it. Him or Stinky. They can fix anything.

299 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:35:47am

re: #294 Captain Amercia

Because I messed up when I was a hatchling. Didn't notice the typo until afterward, and don't think it can be corrected now. D'oh!

Several typos here.
Opnion.
Midwestgak was supposed to be midwestgal.
I think brookly red was supposed to be brooklyn red.
You're in good company.
The typos make the nics interesting.

300 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:35:58am

re: #298 rightside

I am sure if you emailed Charles, he could correct it. Him or Stinky. They can fix anything.

I'll try that. Thanks!

301 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:36:03am

re: #272 rightside

I'm with you on that, but I would have not let him commenced firing since he is wearing no hearing or eyesight protection.

It's like the new "Sixth Sense" MIT technology. It's invisible, but, it's there...maybe.
Dig this....
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

302 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:36:11am

re: #295 Spare O'Lake

No worries, caught me by surprise, but I am using IE 6...

303 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:36:46am

re: #299 reine.de.tout

Several typos here.
Opnion.
Midwestgak was supposed to be midwestgal.
I think brookly red was supposed to be brooklyn red.
You're in good company.
The typos make the nics interesting.


Thanks Reine. And if you read it quickly, you hardly notice it. Would be worse if it was Catnip America. :)

304 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:36:55am

re: #299 reine.de.tout

Several typos here.
Opnion.
Midwestgak was supposed to be midwestgal.
I think brookly red was supposed to be brooklyn red.
You're in good company.
The typos make the nics interesting.

That's what I told the IRS when they audited me last time?

305 soxfan4life  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:36:59am

re: #293 Nevergiveup

As a Yankee fan, we are cursed, we will not win again till A-Rod is gone.

I think you need to replace Hankenstein first.

306 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:37:07am

re: #293 Nevergiveup

As a Yankee fan, we are cursed, we will not win again till A-Rod is gone.

From your keyboard to God's inbox.

307 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:37:16am

re: #290 quickjustice

You're not paranoid if the little green men really are out to get you! ;-) I perceive creationists to be "religious" people prepared to resort to lies, distortions, and deceit about science and evolution to defend their G-d from "atheists", whom they perceive as synonymous with scientists. They feel very strongly about this. It's emotional, not logical. Might one or more of them be prepared to murder for the cause? In some cases, "Christian" abortion opponents have been.

If creationists fail in their political efforts to force religion down the throats of public schoolchildren, what might they do next to defend the Lord? I admit: That's speculation.


NOT ALL CREATIONISTS ARE LIKE THAT.

308 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:37:54am

re: #304 Nevergiveup

That's what I told the IRS when they audited me last time?

Hey, it worked for Tim Geithner!

309 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:38:11am

re: #259 reine.de.tout

Williamson was a regular Catholic priest. He joined the the sect and was excommunicated when the sect leader appointed him Bishop.

Even being raised as a Catholic and trained as a lawyer I do not quite understand the interaction between excommunication and defrocking.

310 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:38:25am

re: #303 Captain Amercia

Thanks Reine. And if you read it quickly, you hardly notice it. Would be worse if it was Catnip America. :)

LOL!
I like Catnip America.
That would be really funny.
But you would get a lot of questions.

311 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:38:29am

re: #301 notutopia

That's cool, we tried something like that 10 years ago in the Navy, it was called the "wearable computer". Not as fancy as this one, but everthing was projected onto glass you wore. Tech manuals, etc., were at your fingertips.

312 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:38:41am

re: #299 reine.de.tout

Several typos here.
Opnion.
Midwestgak was supposed to be midwestgal.
I think brookly red was supposed to be brooklyn red.
You're in good company.
The typos make the nics interesting.

yuppers...I say leave em

313 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:39:14am

re: #304 Nevergiveup

That's what I told the IRS when they audited me last time?

Too bad you weren't a Democrat. Then you could get off without paying interest or penalties, AND get a cabinet position as a bonus.

314 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:39:22am

re: #309 jester6

Williamson was a regular Catholic priest. He joined the the sect and was excommunicated when the sect leader appointed him Bishop.

Even being raised as a Catholic and trained as a lawyer I do not quite understand the interaction between excommunication and defrocking.

Me either.

315 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:39:27am

re: #306 Ford_Prefect

From your keyboard to God's inbox.

Wrong address. A tad more south.

316 jcw46  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:39:31am

re: #275 Spare O'Lake
Thanks for messing up the formatting on the page.

317 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:39:39am

re: #310 reine.de.tout

LOL!
I like Catnip America.
That would be really funny.
But you would get a lot of questions.

And all of the cat fans would really like me!

318 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:39:51am

re: #266 realwest

Uh, but if defrocked means you can't perform your priestly duties, can you still perform them if you've been excommunicated but not de-frocked?
Sorry, just genuine ignorance on my part.

when you've been ordained a Catholic priest...you are a priest forever. if you are defrocked, you cannot perform those duties, that is your punishment. it doesn't make you not a priest, you just cannot perform your priestly duties. if you are excommunicated, your standing in the church is null and void until you have been reinstated. if you are a priest and you've been excommunicated, your priestly duties have been stripped. imho, if you are truly repentant and want to be back in the flock, you would not perform the duties you've been stripped of. you would do penance and work your way home.....this guy doesn't seem to think he's done anything wrong and doesn't seem to want to reform. he wasn't excommunicated for his Holocaust views...nor was he re-communicated for them.

319 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:39:56am
320 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:40:07am

re: #304 Nevergiveup

That's what I told the IRS when they audited me last time?

Hell hath no fury like an IRS audit.

321 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:40:10am

re: #303 Captain Amercia

Thanks Reine. And if you read it quickly, you hardly notice it. Would be worse if it was Catnip America. :)

No one loves America.
/
It couldn't be worse if it was
Captive America. : )

322 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:40:13am

re: #307 MandyManners

OK, Mandy, I'll bite: Define "creationist".

323 lurking faith  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:40:39am

re: #147 WriterMom

That's probably the most offensive statement on this thread so far. THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE HOLOCAUST AND ABORTION. Don't use your views on abortion to minimize the issue of this Holocaust-denying, Jew-hating scumbag POS.

OK, I'm not sure what Gretchen meant, but there may have been a point in there that got lost in a (totally understandable) visceral reaction.

Holocaust denial is both vicious and stupid. However, it is not a matter of church doctrine (although the Church does recognize that the Holocaust occurred).

As for abortion, the Church has been waging a pro-life campaign for a very long time, and if I understand the matter correctly, promoting abortion is against Church doctrine, which considers it murder.

This is NOT meant to compare abortion (which is - according to the Church - murder for personal convenience) and the Holocaust (which was wholesale slaughter of a people for no reason but hate and bigotry). They are very different things. But what is relevant to this discussion is that one is a matter of official doctrine, and one is not.

Like it or not, you don't get thrown out of the Catholic Church for being a jerk, or thinking or saying horrible things. You can get thrown out for transgressing against official doctrine - so the SSPX could be excommunicated as a whole for refusing to accept Vatican II - but frequently the modern Church does not do this, but instead tries to reconcile the sinner to the true faith. Much more difficult, but if their goal is to save souls, then this may be the better path after all.

I say "may be", because I myself would not be inclined to reinstate the leaders of a schismatic movement, once they had been excommunicated (provided they were kicked out on proper grounds).

Also, I do think the Catholic Church needs to do more to combat the lingering anti-semitism found in some of its ranks. (I was always taught to remember that Jesus was Jewish, and that the Christian Church should honor Judaism as a child would honor a parent, but I know that this is not everywhere the case.)

324 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:41:02am

re: #321 notutopia

No one loves America.
/
It couldn't be worse if it was
Captive America. : )

At least until 2012.

325 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:41:42am

re: #308 Captain Amercia

Hey, it worked for Tim Geithner!

Did you know that his father and CBBHO's mother once worked together?

326 opnion  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:42:09am

I can't wait for the Dear Leader's press confderence tonight.
The White House press is going to beat on him with tough questions.
The Media will prove that they are not in the tank for anybody.
Ok, I'm kidding of course.

327 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:42:09am

re: #299 reine.de.tout

Several typos here. Opnion. Midwestgak was supposed to be midwestgal. I think brookly red was supposed to be brooklyn red. You're in good company. The typos make the nics interesting.

That's an interesting point. I made a typo too. My nic was suppose to be George Clooney.

328 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:42:18am

re: #311 rightside

That's cool, we tried something like that 10 years ago in the Navy, it was called the "wearable computer". Not as fancy as this one, but everthing was projected onto glass you wore. Tech manuals, etc., were at your fingertips.

i can just see it now...people bumping into the human "Sixth Sense" billboards on the streets.

329 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:42:24am

re: #325 MandyManners

Did you know that his father and CBBHO's mother once worked together?

Oh, that's just freakin' perfect!

330 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:42:25am

re: #275 Spare O'Lake

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It is interesting that Williamson the Denier now claims to require time to examine the evidence of the Holocaust.
One would have thought that a purported Catholic Bishop with an ounce of integrity would have carefully examined the evidence BEFORE he denied the Holocaust.
Pardon me if I am skeptical of his bona fides.
////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////

He apparently refuses to view the evidence and proof that exists.

WriterMom
2/09/09 6:39:40 am reply quote

Williams Wants More Evidence, But Refuses to Go To Death Camps

He has apologized to the pope for having stirred controversy, but has not repudiated his comments, in which he also said only 200,000 to 300,000 Jews were killed during World War II.

Williamson does not plan to immediately comply with the Vatican's demand that he recant, and has rejected a suggestion that he might visit the former Auschwitz death camp, the German weekly Der Spiegel reported Saturday.

Williamson said he would correct himself if he is satisfied by the evidence, but insisted that examining it "will take time," Der Spiegel reported

He remains deliberately and willfully ignorant.

331 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:42:41am

re: #294 Captain Amercia

Keep it. Many Lizards have typo's in their nics. Midwest Gak was supposed to be Midwest Gal, IIRC. Kinda makes it fun.

332 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:43:31am

re: #319 buzzsawmonkey

BTW, if anyone wants to read some recent--well, relatively recent--history of the often uneasy relationship between the Vatican and the Jewish community, I recommend highly the works of Brown University professor David Kertzer.

His book "The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara" details the abduction of a six-year-old Jewish child from his parents in Bologna by the Inquisition in the 1850s, on the word of a maid who said that she had secretly baptized him. Though the abduction became an international scandal, the fallout from which helped in the unification of Italy by Garibaldi (and the deprivation of the Pope's temporal powers), the boy was never returned to his family.

Kertzer also wrote a second book, called, I believe, "The Popes and the Jews" or something of the sort, which details the Vatican's equation of modernity and its evils with "Jewish influence."

Highly footnoted and referenced, but very readable.

I recommend it too. Very good book.

333 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:43:45am

re: #288 reine.de.tout
I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head there reine!
I'm not sure that the Vatican understands how quickly positions can be circulated (and mis-communications and rumors and out and out lies) and that, for the Pope to retain his authority amongs several hundred million Roman Catholics, he or someone in the Vatican has to be reminded of this.
It's not so much that the Pope would lose "credibility" or "authority" within the Church, but that the Church - as peceived to be in the person of the Pope - really needs to get with it. I'm not a Catholic or any other kind of religion basher, but it seems to me that if the Pope want's to continue to be a FORCE in world affairs, he needs much better and faster communication skills and especially needs to learn how to LISTEN to other people better than he has shown so far.

334 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:43:56am

re: #331 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Keep it. Many Lizards have typo's in their nics. Midwest Gak was supposed to be Midwest Gal, IIRC. Kinda makes it fun.

Midwest Gak is funny. Like the reaction she must get when she sees Barack on TV . . . GAK!

335 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:44:05am

re: #322 quickjustice

OK, Mandy, I'll bite: Define "creationist".

I'm not talking about those who are trying to force public schools to teach religious beliefs that they hold. I'm sure that there are many who believe that God created the Earth in its entirety who don't want to force that belief on others.

336 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:44:41am

re: #331 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Many Lizards have typo's in their nics.

Other Lizards even have typos in their references to the typos in other Lizards' nics.

:P

337 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:44:41am

re: #309 jester6

As a non-Catholic Christian, I understand excommunication to be expulsion from the Church. I understand "defrocking" to be withdrawal from the clergy, voluntarily or involuntarily. A priest who decides to get married, abandoning his vow of celibacy, would be an example. As I understand it, such a person would remain a member of the Church.

338 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:44:54am

re: #336 Occasional Reader

Other Lizards even have typos in their references to the typos in other Lizards' nics.

:P

ZING!

339 Afrocity  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:45:25am

re: #289 notutopia

No he never apologized. He still felt that Blacks act like victims, but then again I agree with it on some levels. One of the reasons I left the Democratic Party in 2008 was because i want to see AA people get off "victim island"

341 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:45:49am

re: #273 MJ

I certainly wouldn't deny that some in the media are using this as a club to to beat Ratzinger. But Ratzinger gave them the club which to beat him with his total indifference to world opinion, to the opinion of many, if not most Catholics, and especially the opinion of Jews. The longer this keeps up, the less moral authority the Vatican retains.

The Pope did not give him the club. This was an internal political/dogmatic matter. The Pope was trying to give an olive branch to the SSPX sect and this nutbag got the spot light. Holocaust denial was not even on the radar screen. This Pope was very focused on dogma and philosophy before he became Pope. This was probably something he had wanted to do for years.

Go the SSPX.org and you can see the significance of rescinding the exommunications to these people.

The Pope was trying to get these people back into the fold and this nutbag got caught up in the net.

342 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:45:50am

A belated Good Morning.

May I offer a bit of good news?

343 lurking faith  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:45:56am

re: #173 Jetpilot1101
I can never keep up on these fast-moving, emotional threads!
Thanks for pointing it out to me calmly.

344 Pietr  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:46:03am

re: #309 jester6

re: #314 reine.de.tout

Defrocking means one can't perform as a priest-but is still able to recieve communion, and participate as a church member. Excommunication means you are EXILED from the Catholic Church, and all participation. I think that's the short and sweet of it....Cheers.

345 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:46:14am

Williamson is despicable, IMHO, for his Holocaust denial. Holocaust denial, contrary to some's opinion, is not just about Jew-hate. It is the denial that 6 million Jews and 6 million other folks, including Catholic priests and nuns, handicapped people, Rom, Slavs, political prisioners, and others were killed by the Nazis.

As he is a priest, he is denying that the Nazis killed his brethern for defying them.

346 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:46:37am

re: #319 buzzsawmonkey

details the abduction of a six-year-old Jewish child from his parents in Bologna

The boy later changed his name to Oscar Mayer, and went on to wreak revenge upon Bologna.

347 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:46:51am

re: #339 Afrocity

You left them, or they left you?

Either way, welcome aboard!

349 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:47:53am

re: #341 jester6

... The Pope was trying to give an olive branch to the SSPX sect and this nutbag got the spot light.

And what was the Pope thinking even considering giving anything to SSPX.

The only things I would have given them is a chance to reverse their position on a whole lot of things.

He didn't do that, did he?

350 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:47:55am

Anyone listening to Laura Ingram interrogating Arlin Spector?

351 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:48:25am

re: #333 realwest

details the abduction of a six-year-old Jewish child from his parents in Bologna

Perhaps a Facebook page?

I also think the next Papal Encyclical should be in the form of a text message.

/

352 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:48:25am

re: #291 jcw46

I agree with your assessment of much of the MSM (newspapers, tv, etc.) But why would Merkel ask the pope for "clarification" on the pope's views about Holocaust denial, if this were all just a kerfuffle re: internal affairs of the Catholic church (which, if the latter, then everyone could ignore)?

353 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:48:47am

re: #344 Pietr

Excommunication means you are EXILED from the Catholic Church, and all participation.

Not just Catholics do this. Amongst the Amish, it's called shunning. Same effect.

354 darkster2400  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:48:53am

re: #262 Golem Akbar

Amen - I am no A-Roid fan, but this latest BS, and the reaction from the Players' Union has all but killed any dwindling interest I had in major league baseball.

355 Flavia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:48:54am

re: #23 reine.de.tout

I'm sending young Reine to Europe with a school group this coming summer .... but I specifically wanted her to go on this year's trip because it includes a visit to Dachau, lecture and film included.

That will be a powerful lesson for her, I think; having been there, I think she could not ever fall under the spell of a holocaust denier; and when faced with idiotic people, she is not one who tends to keep her mouth shut.

Please make sure you have telephone contact with her during this trip - no matter how old she is, after she has seen that place, she will doubtless need to speak to her Mommy & Daddy.

356 Killian Bundy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:49:00am

General Motors to Invest $1 Billion in Brazil Operations -- Money to Come from U.S. Rescue Program

General Motors plans to invest $1 billion in Brazil to avoid the kind of problems the U.S. automaker is facing in its home market, said the beleaguered car maker.

According to the president of GM Brazil-Mercosur, Jaime Ardila, the funding will come from the package of financial aid that the manufacturer will receive from the U.S. government and will be used to "complete the renovation of the line of products up to 2012."

/remember the auto bailout?

357 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:49:09am

re: #353 unreconstructed rebel

Not just Catholics do this. Amongst the Amish, it's called shunning. Same effect.

Can we shun BHO?

358 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:49:18am

re: #327 Walter L. Newton

Two guys at a meeting, both with a black eye.

One guy says to other, "How'd you get your black eye?"

Guy says, "Silly mistake; I misspoke and instead of telling the very well developed lady at the airline ticket counter that I wanted two 'tickets to Pittsburgh, I said I wanted two 'pickets to Tittsburg'.

Guy replies, "Same kind of thing happened to me. At breakfast this morning, I meant to ask my wife for the Raisin Bran, but accidentally said, 'You fucking bitch, you have ruined my life.'"

359 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:49:22am

Here's the complete interview Bishop Williamson conducted with Spiegel. Suggest you all read it:

Here's a sample:

SPIEGEL: Your position on Judaism is consistently anti-Semitic.

Williamson: St. Paul put it this way: The Jews are beloved for the sake of Our Father, but our enemies for the sake of the gospel.

SPIEGEL: Do you seriously intend to use Catholic tradition and the Bible to justify your anti-Semitism?

Williamson: Anti-Semitism means many things today, for instance, when one criticizes the Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip. The Church has always understood the definition of anti-Semitism to be the rejection of Jews because of their Jewish roots. This is condemned by the Church. Incidentally, this is self-evident in a religion whose founders and all important individuals in its early history were Jews. But it was also clear, because of the large number of Jewish Christians in early Christianity, that all men need Christ for their salvation -- all men, including the Jews.

SPIEGEL: The pope will travel to Israel soon, where he plans to visit the Holocaust Memorial. Are you also opposed to this?

Williamson: Making a pilgrimage to the Holy Land is a great joy for Christians. I wish the Holy Father all the best on his journey. What troubles me about Yad Vashem is that Pope Pius XII is attacked there, even though no one saved more Jews during the Nazi period than he did. For instance, he had baptismal certificates issued for persecuted Jews to protect them against arrest. These facts have been distorted to mean exactly the opposite. Otherwise, I hope that the pope will also have an eye and a heart for the women and children who were injured in the Gaza Strip, and that he will speak out in support of the Christian population in Bethlehem, which is now walled in.

[Link: www.spiegel.de...]

Antisemitism is A-OK because of Israel....


By the way, the book Williamson said he ordered was written by this guy. From Wiki:

Jean-Claude Pressac (1944 - July 23, 2003) was a French chemist and pharmacist who became a published authority on the Holocaust of World War II.
Pressac was originally a Holocaust denier who, with Robert Faurisson, attempted to disprove what he considered historically inaccurate depictions of the concentration camps Auschwitz and Birkenau as extermination camps. Upon visiting Auschwitz, however, Pressac was able to view first-hand the extensive archive of construction documents which had survived due to being located in the construction office rather than the administrative offices. These convinced him that his former views were in error, an event he describes in the postface of Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, saying that he "nearly did away with myself one evening in October 1979 in the main camp, the Stammlager, overwhelmed by the evidence and by despair". [1] He published his conclusions along with much of the underlying evidence in his 1989 book, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers [2] . In his 1993 Les Crématoires d'Auschwitz [3] , he further delineated the operation of the crematoria at Auschwitz, and their integration into the larger Nazi program to eradicate the Jews of Europe. Pressac estimates that between 631 000 and 711 000 were killed at Auschwitz.[4]

360 darkster2400  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:49:34am

re: #345 Honorary Yooper

right on!

361 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:49:54am
362 lurking faith  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:49:55am

re: #288 reine.de.tout
I agree with you entirely. I think the current pope is an honest and intelligent man, but I also think he's a bit behind the times as far as public relations go. I don't expect the charisma of the previous pope, but a recognition that clear public statements need to be made FAST would be good.

363 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:50:14am

Eating $270M worth it for the Yankees to finally ditch A-Rod


[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

Yup.

364 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:50:23am

re: #337 quickjustice

That is true.

The question is more about defrocking. I think Pheonixgirl has a handle on it earlier in the thread. I don't know her background but from what I do know of Canon law it makes sense.

365 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:50:24am
366 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:50:32am

re: #336 Occasional Reader

Grammar police
Arrest this man
He types so bad...

367 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:50:33am

re: #301 notutopia

It's like the new "Sixth Sense" MIT technology. It's invisible, but, it's there...maybe.
Dig this....
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

I just finished Rainbows End by Vernor Vinge and one of the coolest ideas in the book were "wearables."

368 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:50:48am

OT -

Why is Obama even speaking to the American people tonight? Isn't this bill basically a done deal? It goes back and forth a little to iron some things out between the House and Senate, but it's gonna pass, right?

So, does Obama HAVE to have everyone on his side? That's a little sick, as far as I'm concerned. If he thinks what he is doing is good for the country, then why does he have to have all public opinion on his side?

Odd.

369 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:51:37am

re: #358 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

George Clooney!

370 rawmuse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:51:41am

Good morning, Lizards, I see we are off to a rollicking start.
OT, Muslim investors defy recession.

371 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:51:44am

re: #357 Captain Amercia

Can we shun BHO?

Only if you let me toss in Congress. ;-)

372 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:51:51am

re: #365 claspur

Way OT/
You have to hear Spector on Laura Ingraham...this guy needs to be taken-out, and shown The Wall.

Her show comes on again later in the day, but I can't recall the station.

Bet a hundred, her ppl will post *This, to hear on her site tho.

He is such a despicable person. Good for Laura.

373 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:51:53am

re: #368 Walter L. Newton

It's kind of what I liked about Bush. He didn't give a shit what I thought.

374 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:52:08am

re: #371 unreconstructed rebel

Only if you let me toss in Congress. ;-)

Deal!

375 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:52:15am

re: #368 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Why is Obama even speaking to the American people tonight? Isn't this bill basically a done deal? It goes back and forth a little to iron some things out between the House and Senate, but it's gonna pass, right?

So, does Obama HAVE to have everyone on his side? That's a little sick, as far as I'm concerned. If he thinks what he is doing is good for the country, then why does he have to have all public opinion on his side?

Odd.

walter, he can't stop campaigning...

376 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:52:18am

re: #365 claspur

Way OT/
You have to hear Spector on Laura Ingraham...this guy needs to be taken-out, and shown The Wall.

Her show comes on again later in the day, but I can't recall the station.

Bet a hundred, her ppl will post *This, to hear on her site tho.

She smoked him hard. I hope that interview gets posted.

377 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:52:25am

re: #339 Afrocity

No he never apologized. He still felt that Blacks act like victims, but then again I agree with it on some levels. One of the reasons I left the Democratic Party in 2008 was because i want to see AA people get off "victim island"

We have a town close by here in NC, really named
Soul City.
90% of the residents of 2000, are self proclaimed "victims" and continue to benefit quite handsomely by sucking at the government handout teats. The county it is in, has the 2nd to highest unemployment rate, and highest state government payouts to it's residents in NC.
It is a large county.

378 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:52:27am

re: #353 unreconstructed rebel

Not just Catholics do this. Amongst the Amish, it's called shunning. Same effect.

There are more Christian based sects that do this then you would realize.

379 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:53:05am

re: #361 buzzsawmonkey

Kidding aside

Never!

I'll give up my kidding when you pry it from the cold, dead sarcasm center of my brain.

380 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:53:15am

re: #368 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Why is Obama even speaking to the American people tonight? Isn't this bill basically a done deal? It goes back and forth a little to iron some things out between the House and Senate, but it's gonna pass, right?

So, does Obama HAVE to have everyone on his side? That's a little sick, as far as I'm concerned. If he thinks what he is doing is good for the country, then why does he have to have all public opinion on his side?

Odd.

What do you expect from a guy on his third memoir?

381 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:53:28am

re: #355 Flavia

Please make sure you have telephone contact with her during this trip - no matter how old she is, after she has seen that place, she will doubtless need to speak to her Mommy & Daddy.

My daughter went on a trip to the camps after college.
She told us how they'd go back to the hotel and drink afterwards; I can understand that.

382 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:53:51am

re: #290 quickjustice
"If creationists fail in their political efforts to force religion down the throats of public schoolchildren, what might they do next to defend the Lord? I admit: That's speculation." And I'd still say it's paranoia. I don't know how long it's been since an abortion clinic was bombed by a "creationist" but I sincerely doubt that "creationists" are trying to cram creationism down our throats. People who are at or support the Disco Institute YES. But I know a few "creationists" who, quite frankly, don't care whether or not I believe in creationism (other than, I suppose, perhaps praying for my salvation). I've engaged them in discussing YEC (which they all seem to be) and talk about carbon dating and all and they smile and say something to the effect of "to each his own". Now the Disco Institute, Ben Stein and his lot DO CARE ABOUT cramming it down our throats and about teaching it in the public schools, but as wrong and as slimy as I think they are, I really don't see them calling for genocide, ya know?

383 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:53:52am

re: #368 Walter L. Newton
It's the most highly anticipated recession in history.
from Ace:

It's not just bad news. It's bad press. This is the most highly anticipated recession in history, with cheerleaders from roughly half the political spectrum. President Bush, Secretary Paulson, President Obama, and many in Congress have spent the last five months telling the country and the world that we stand on the brink of a Second Great Depression. Did they think that their continuous fear-mon

384 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:54:00am

re: #349 Walter L. Newton

And what was the Pope thinking even considering giving anything to SSPX.

The only things I would have given them is a chance to reverse their position on a whole lot of things.

He didn't do that, did he?

I don't know if he did or didn't. The only thing being covered on this story is Williamson's comments and the reactions. I guess the dogma/political stuff is too much "inside baseball".

385 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:54:12am

re: #348 Captain Amercia

Aaannnddd . . . .patronage!

It makes you wonder how long T. Geithner and CBBHO have known each other or known of each other.

386 horse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:54:23am

1. The idiot is NOT a Bishop in the Roman Catholic Church
2. He is not being "reinstated" into anything, other than being allowed to receive communion at mass
3. When did the AP start writing the articles here?

387 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:54:24am

re: #378 Walter L. Newton

There are more Christian based sects that do this then you would realize.

It's biblical, actually.

388 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:54:43am

re: #375 phoenixgirl

walter, he can't stop campaigning...

Perpetual revolution.

389 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:54:57am

re: #361 buzzsawmonkey

from being taken from his home by the Inquisition during a time when the Popes still ruled as temporal kings, before Italy or Germany had been unified, to living until a time well within many people's living memory.

We often tend to think of history as constantly accelerating, but I do often wonder if that's so. It seems unlikely that I've seen more visible change in the world around me, than Edgardo had by the time he was my age.

390 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:54:58am

re: #383 FrogMarch

oopsie - cut off - here's the rest..

Did they think that their continuous fear-mongering wouldn't greatly influence the economy, and not for the better?
391 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:55:18am

re: #336 Occasional Reader

The apostrophe has been banned in Birmingham, England (btw)...

392 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:55:21am

re: #380 unreconstructed rebel

Probably occurred to him to run for POTUS when he got his first book money...
"Michelle? People are buying this shit.".

393 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:55:52am

re: #333 realwest

I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head there reine!
I'm not sure that the Vatican understands how quickly positions can be circulated (and mis-communications and rumors and out and out lies) and that, for the Pope to retain his authority amongs several hundred million Roman Catholics, he or someone in the Vatican has to be reminded of this.
It's not so much that the Pope would lose "credibility" or "authority" within the Church, but that the Church - as peceived to be in the person of the Pope - really needs to get with it. I'm not a Catholic or any other kind of religion basher, but it seems to me that if the Pope want's to continue to be a FORCE in world affairs, he needs much better and faster communication skills and especially needs to learn how to LISTEN to other people better than he has shown so far.

I think a big part of the problem stems from the fact that the Vatican does not have a blog. If they had a good blog then all the dirt on Williamson the Denier would have come to the Holy See's attention BEFORE the ex-ex-communication took place.
How about Little Green Catholics?
//

394 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:56:12am

re: #386 horse

1. The idiot is NOT a Bishop in the Roman Catholic Church
2. He is not being "reinstated" into anything, other than being allowed to receive communion at mass
3. When did the AP start writing the articles here?

Huh?

395 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:56:21am

re: #382 realwest

I don't know how many threads Charles has to post about creationist bills across this country before people realize creationists are trying to cram this down our throats.

396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:56:32am

re: #391 J.S.

Think I will move to Birmingham, England.

397 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:56:34am

re: #387 unreconstructed rebel

It's biblical, actually.

I know, but who follows the bible anymore. Paul lays out a lot of "rules" (suggestions?) about how to run a "congregation" (in his time, really a home assembly).

398 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:56:50am

re: #388 MandyManners

Perpetual revolution.

Gives new meaning to the term "PR".

399 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:57:15am

re: #396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Think I will move to Birmingham, England.

I'll warn my friends there!

400 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:57:16am
401 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:57:19am

re: #341 jester6

The Pope did not give him the club. This was an internal political/dogmatic matter. The Pope was trying to give an olive branch to the SSPX sect and this nutbag got the spot light. Holocaust denial was not even on the radar screen. This Pope was very focused on dogma and philosophy before he became Pope. This was probably something he had wanted to do for years.

Go the SSPX.org and you can see the significance of rescinding the exommunications to these people.

The Pope was trying to get these people back into the fold and this nutbag got caught up in the net.

I disagree with you. The Pope gave the media the club.
As for SSPX, antisemitism is part and parcel of that group. The charge of Deicide, which the SSPX promotes, is antisemitic. It is the very definition of antisemitism.
If the Pope wants to allow that back into the Church, then not only is he canceling Vatican II, but will lose all Moral Authority. He might as well start to promote the revival of Jewish ghettos in Rome.

402 silvergirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:57:49am

re: #280 rightside

OT, but is there a reason your nic is Amercia, vice America?

It may turn out to be a suitable name since we'll be crying out for mercy for Amercia by the time we've all gagged on the lard of the stimulus package and survived the pummeling of our image now that the unicorn is saddled up with The One as jockey.

403 VegasRick  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:58:01am

re: #370 rawmuse

Good morning, Lizards, I see we are off to a rollicking start.
OT, Muslim investors defy recession.

Well, and then you have this.
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

404 Opinionated  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:58:03am

re: #359 MJ

Here's the complete interview Bishop Williamson conducted with Spiegel. Suggest you all read it:

Here's a sample:

even though no one saved more Jews during the Nazi period

Saved from what.....if there was no Holocaust.

405 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:58:05am

re: #383 FrogMarch

It's the most highly anticipated recession in history.
from Ace:

The Audacity of the Hype of Depression.

Sounds like a title for Obama's next memoir.

406 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:58:37am

re: #391 J.S.

The apostrophe has been banned in Birmingham, England (btw)...

Then how do they spell the name of the Holy Sacred Q'u'r'aaa'aaa'n'''?

407 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:58:38am

re: #351 Occasional Reader
Good morning O.R.! Uh, I never said the material you quoted.
Nonetheless, can texting be far behind?! (I'd have said "Facebook" but I'm still not really sure what the hell that is)!

408 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:59:01am
409 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:59:16am

re: #399 Walter L. Newton

Speaking of George Clooney (YOU DID, DAMMIT!) make sure you see "Burn After Reading". Very good movie. Well acted (IMHO), nice turns, great farce.

410 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:59:25am

re: #402 silvergirl

It may turn out to be a suitable name since we'll be crying out for mercy for Amercia by the time we've all gagged on the lard of the stimulus package and survived the pummeling of our image now that the unicorn is saddled up with The One as jockey.

"Hey, you can still see the marks on this steak where the jockey was hitting it!" - Rodney Dangerfield, Caddyshack

411 claspur  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:59:35am

re: #388 MandyManners

Perpetual revolution.


Mandy's so Bright, that's why her Dad called her, Son. ;o)

412 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:59:52am

re: #396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Think I will move to Birmingham, England.

How can a vegetarian move to Birmingham?

413 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:59:58am

re: #409 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of George Clooney (YOU DID, DAMMIT!) make sure you see "Burn After Reading". Very good movie. Well acted (IMHO), nice turns, great farce.

Frances McDormand is a gem. Loved her in Fargo.

414 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:00am

re: #409 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of George Clooney (YOU DID, DAMMIT!) make sure you see "Burn After Reading". Very good movie. Well acted (IMHO), nice turns, great farce.

I laughed all the way thru it.

415 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:15am

re: #411 claspur

Go piss up a rope.

416 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:37am

U.S. Taxpayers Risk $9.7 Trillion on Bailouts as Senate Votes
By Mark Pittman and Bob Ivry

Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- The stimulus package the U.S. Congress is completing would raise the government’s commitment to solving the financial crisis to $9.7 trillion, enough to pay off more than 90 percent of the nation’s home mortgages.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

I don't know how those numbers work out but anytime they want to pay mine off, it's ok with me if Obama is listening.

417 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:40am

re: #342 unreconstructed rebel Thanks for that bit of good news. Now if only Obama and the Dems only paid attention to what voters want, I'd be even happier!

418 quickjustice  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:42am

re: #378 Walter L. Newton

All Christian "sects" do this, Walter. It's Biblical. (St. Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians). Paul ordered the church at Corinth to kick out a man who had been sleeping with his mother. So in Christianity, incest is a no-no.

419 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:49am

re: #402 silvergirl

What? no utopia?

*just say no to porkulus*

420 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:00:53am

re: #407 realwest

Good morning O.R.! Uh, I never said the material you quoted.
Nonetheless, can texting be far behind?! (I'd have said "Facebook" but I'm still not really sure what the hell that is)!

Whoops, I mixed up your cut n' pasted quote (intended to be your reference to the Pope having to communicate better) with one from buzzsawmonkey.

421 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:01:07am

re: #405 Honorary Yooper

The Audacity of the Hype of Depression.

Sounds like a title for Obama's next memoir.

So true.

or - the Audacity of pushing a really bad idea

more from Ace:

Specter wants to be thanked for saddling us with slightly less debt than desired by his colleagues. Thanks, Senator, for nothing. You could have stuck with Republicans and left us much better off.

Your bill spends $195,000 for every job saved (I will charitably assume that your numbers are correct). What a waste of money. How out of touch do you have to be to think that spending $195,000 on a job is a good idea? Much better alternatives have been proposed to stimulate the economy, like a one-year payroll tax holiday. I understand, Senator, that the problem with alternatives is that they would make money available to taxpayers, rather than Congressfolk, something that you do not want.

422 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:01:11am

re: #398 Honorary Yooper

Gives new meaning to the term "PR".

Gotta' do it to attain the goals of the Cloward-Piven Strategy.

423 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:01:26am
424 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:01:26am

re: #401 MJ

I disagree with you. The Pope gave the media the club.
As for SSPX, antisemitism is part and parcel of that group. The charge of Deicide, which the SSPX promotes, is antisemitic. It is the very definition of antisemitism.
If the Pope wants to allow that back into the Church, then not only is he canceling Vatican II, but will lose all Moral Authority. He might as well start to promote the revival of Jewish ghettos in Rome.

I agree and I said the same thing above. There is no olive branch available to this group.

I get tired of all this "knight jumping" around the real issue. The real iss is SSPX promotes a ton of bullshit positions, and the only thing the pope should have EVER done was to remind the public that he wants nothing to do with SSPX while they teach this shit.

There is no other way to look at it. Notice, SSPX has not come out and say "gee, the reports are wrong, we don't teach these things" and Williamson certainly hasn't.

I call bullshit.

425 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:01:28am

re: #412 Occasional Reader

How can a vegetarian move to Birmingham?

Oh its okay, unless you try to bogart the cake.

426 claspur  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:01:49am

re: #415 MandyManners

Go piss up a rope.

I was being endearing, Mandy?

427 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:02:00am

re: #411 claspur

Mandy's so Bright, that's why her Dad called her, Son. ;o)

That was uncalled for! Apologize!

428 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:02:09am

re: #350 NJDhockeyfan
NO, I'm not, but I hope she's giving him hell for his support of this Pork Bill (I'm not even gonna bother using "Pork Stimulus Bill" anymore).
How is he defending himself?

429 A.W.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:02:15am

re: #10 Stonemason

The outrage is that he holds a position in the church, he speaks for certain areas of the church.

My understanding is that he has been stripped of any position and now the only question is whether to throw him out entirely.

And, well, if I am wrong, let me say that they should strip him of any position but not throw him out.

430 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:02:27am

re: #411 claspur

Is the only reason you're here is so you can abuse various posters?

431 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:02:30am

re: #363 Nevergiveup

Eating $270M worth it for the Yankees to finally ditch A-Rod


[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

Yup.

Never in a million years... They are going to keep him... The Yankee fan will stand up and cheer for him just like Giambi, just like Clemens, just like Pettitte...

432 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:02:37am

re: #419 rightside

What? no utopia?

*just say no to porkulus*

NOTUTOPIA !

433 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:02:54am

re: #417 realwest

Thanks for that bit of good news. Now if only Obama and the Dems only paid attention to what voters want, I'd be even happier!

It's a start. If only the Republicans can regain their feet before too much damage gets done.

434 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:03:00am

re: #409 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of George Clooney (YOU DID, DAMMIT!) make sure you see "Burn After Reading". Very good movie. Well acted (IMHO), nice turns, great farce.

No, I really don't like to spend money on new movies. I'll catch it when I can get the DVD cheap or something like that. Maybe when it comes on AMC.

435 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:03:37am

re: #346 Occasional Reader
"wreak revenge upon Bologna" - that's nothing, you should see what he did to their wieners!
:)

436 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:04:00am

re: #434 Walter L. Newton

Oh, it's out of theaters, I meant DVD or whatever. A mess o' fun.

437 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:04:11am

re: #432 notutopia

knew you'd chime in!

438 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:04:19am

re: #426 claspur

It's not a good idea to go around an antagonize commentors. It usually ends up bad for the antagonizer.

439 soxfan4life  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:04:23am

re: #431 tfc3rid

Never in a million years... They are going to keep him... The Yankee fan will stand up and cheer for him just like Giambi, just like Clemens, just like Pettitte...

All while staying classy (at least in their own minds)

440 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:04:39am

re: #430 Sharmuta

Is the only reason you're here is so you can abuse various posters?

It's been a twerp since it arrived.

441 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:04:42am

re: #425 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh its okay, unless you try to bogart the cake.

Mmm . . . ham cake!

442 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:04:52am

re: #431 tfc3rid

Never in a million years... They are going to keep him... The Yankee fan will stand up and cheer for him just like Giambi, just like Clemens, just like Pettitte...

Honestly I don't think so. As a Yankee fan, many of us hated him before, and since he really sucks under pressure, I got a feeling this year is gonna be bad. He is going to be heckled unmercifully. He is getting NO support in sports talk radio here in NY.

443 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:04:58am

re: #408 Iron Fist

I still maintain that the UK owes me big time. Ka-ching!

Too bad they're broke at the moment.

444 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:05:08am

AfroCity? You still here?

445 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:05:09am

Has anyone here read the stimulus?

No? Well then we have something in common with the US Senate...

446 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:05:12am

re: #396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Think I will move to Birmingham, England.

Birmingham, Alabama is very nice.

447 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:05:14am

re: #430 Sharmuta

Is the only reason you're here is so you can abuse various posters?

Looking at his time in service & karma, he won't be here long.

448 Pietr  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:05:18am

re: #402 silvergirl

It may turn out to be a suitable name since we'll be crying out for mercy for Amercia by the time we've all gagged on the lard of the stimulus package and survived the pummeling of our image now that the unicorn is saddled up with The One as jockey.

Hmmm, that reminds me of a 'Horny Bastard" joke............

/white smoke.....

449 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:05:33am

Well, I'm off to take in some of this 50 degree and clear sky weather outside. Ya'll have a great morning, and I'll check back in this evening.
: )

450 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:06:00am

re: #442 Nevergiveup

Honestly I don't think so. As a Yankee fan, many of us hated him before, and since he really sucks under pressure, I got a feeling this year is gonna be bad. He is going to be heckled unmercifully. He is getting NO support in sports talk radio here in NY.

Oh I know... As a Met fan, it makes me smile...

451 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:06:12am

re: #441 Captain Amercia

pork soda!

452 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:06:24am
453 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:06:28am

re: #431 tfc3rid

Never in a million years... They are going to keep him... The Yankee fan will stand up and cheer for him just like Giambi, just like Clemens, just like Pettitte...

Only when he does well. If he falters they will slay him.

454 Afrocity  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:06:40am

re: #408 Iron Fist

But my fellow AA's needed an AA president to feel vindicated. Pick a black person, any black person. I just feel that you should chose the right person.
I guarantee that those who were on victim island still woke up there, on November 4th.

455 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:00am

re: #426 claspur

I just took a look at your comment history and you really are a jerk with no contributing value.

456 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:04am

re: #435 realwest

"wreak revenge upon Bologna" - that's nothing, you should see what he did to their wieners!
:)

For some reason that just sounds wrong. No idea why, but it just sounds deeply wrong. LOL!

457 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:07am

re: #451 rightside

pork soda!

Bacon flavored jelly beans!
Really. Amazon sells them.

458 opnion  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:14am

re: #368 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Why is Obama even speaking to the American people tonight? Isn't this bill basically a done deal? It goes back and forth a little to iron some things out between the House and Senate, but it's gonna pass, right?

So, does Obama HAVE to have everyone on his side? That's a little sick, as far as I'm concerned. If he thinks what he is doing is good for the country, then why does he have to have all public opinion on his side?

Odd.

Because he is a narcissist & they love cameras.

459 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:15am

re: #451 rightside

pork soda!

Pork gum! It's ham-tastic!

460 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:16am

re: #450 tfc3rid

Oh I know... As a Met fan, it makes me smile...

To me it's like that joke about a bunch of lawyers going over a cliff in your new Jaguar.

461 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:40am

re: #428 realwest

NO, I'm not, but I hope she's giving him hell for his support of this Pork Bill (I'm not even gonna bother using "Pork Stimulus Bill" anymore).
How is he defending himself?

The usual BS. She was hitting him with facts & numbers and he was denying it.

/Typical

462 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:44am

re: #446 Alouette

Birmingham, Alabama is very nice.

Is that where they loved the Governor? (Boo-hoo-hoo)

463 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:07:48am

re: #436 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, it's out of theaters, I meant DVD or whatever. A mess o' fun.

Valentine Day is coming up. I need a present!

464 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:08:20am

re: #455 Sharmuta

I just took a look at your comment history and you really are a jerk with no contributing value.

Paging Rahm Emmanuel . . .

465 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:08:31am

re: #451 rightside

pork soda!

Isn't that what Congress Cola has as their best selling product?
I believe it's called Congress Cola Classic.

466 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:08:32am

OT: I think I'll forgo Cancun this year . . .

Retired General kidnapped, tortured, executed one week into anti-drug job in Cancun

467 claspur  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:08:35am

re: #430 Sharmuta

I don't abuse any post(er)

We can't play King of the Hill right now, because all the snow(mostly) has melted.
I sure didn't ever want to come here as a Hot Dog either.

Stop Dog-Pileing on me....it's not fun, and I'm too busy to pay attention to it.

468 Silvergirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:08:50am

re: #457 notutopia

Bacon flavored jelly beans!
Really. Amazon sells them.

They're probably part of the after school snack program in the stimulus package.

469 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:08:51am
470 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:08:52am

Y'all watch for afrocity, if you haven't met her yet. Tres cool!

471 VegasRick  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:09:03am

re: #454 Afrocity

But my fellow AA's needed an AA president to feel vindicated. Pick a black person, any black person. I just feel that you should chose the right person.
I guarantee that those who were on victim island still woke up there, on November 4th.

Michael Steele is the real thing. I look forward to voting for him in the future.

472 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:09:25am

re: #440 MandyManners

It's been a twerp since it arrived.

Even worse, I hate really bad puns, and for that I say "Flog the byastid!".

473 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:09:37am

re: #467 claspur

Stop posting bullshit and you wouldn't be getting dog piled.

474 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:09:47am

re: #468 Silvergirl

They're probably part of the after school snack program in the stimulus package.

They're NOT that expensive!

475 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:09:49am

re: #467 claspur

Just curious...what drugs are you abusing today?

476 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:10:02am

re: #406 Occasional Reader

One of the building signs reads: "King's Cross" (now to become "King is Cross").

477 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:10:16am

re: #458 opnion

Because he is a narcissist & they love cameras.

He is not a clinical narcissist. A big ego, evidently but he would not qualify as a narcissist accord to the DSM IV.

It's "fun" to tag people with certain mental illnesses, but unless you have seen the real thing, you don't know how very defined it is, and Obama does not show the actual symptoms.

478 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:10:35am

re: #454 Afrocity

But my fellow AA's needed an AA president to feel vindicated. Pick a black person, any black person. I just feel that you should chose the right person.
I guarantee that those who were on victim island still woke up there, on November 4th.

To some degree, I can understand that. And much as I got sick of hearing the word, the election was, yes, "historic", and in that respect, for a good reason. But sure, I wish it had been someone with sounder values and more leadership experience. (Or ANY leadership experience, for that matter.)

479 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:10:45am

re: #452 buzzsawmonkey

"Stimulis...because all economies have performance issues."

Watch and laugh.

I just love that. It's not just funny - it's true.

480 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:10:58am

OY. I'm hungry.

Are we still talking about the Bishop/bishop/not Bishop?

481 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:11:22am

re: #355 Flavia

Please make sure you have telephone contact with her during this trip - no matter how old she is, after she has seen that place, she will doubtless need to speak to her Mommy & Daddy.

The trip director told us that after this particular excursion, the ride back in a bus full of teens is eerily quiet. This trip presents a very effective visual truth about the holocaust.

482 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:11:42am

re: #454 Afrocity

But my fellow AA's needed an AA president to feel vindicated. Pick a black person, any black person. I just feel that you should chose the right person.
I guarantee that those who were on victim island still woke up there, on November 4th.

What will it take for them to get off the island?

483 jwb7605  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:11:46am

re: #454 Afrocity

But my fellow AA's needed an AA president to feel vindicated. Pick a black person, any black person. I just feel that you should chose the right person.
I guarantee that those who were on victim island still woke up there, on November 4th.

I'd like to believe that last sentence, but the skeptic in me advises otherwise.

484 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:11:48am

re: #411 claspur

Mandy's so Bright, that's why her Dad called her, Son. ;o)

What kind of fucking jerk are you? Oh, that kind of fucking jerk, the fucking asshole dipshit kind or jerk.

485 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:11:54am

Going to see a movie (Walter? Wanna come?). Any recommendations. Want to see Taken. That or SlumDog Millionaire. Is Slumdog a happy movie. Don't want to be depressed.

486 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:12:08am
487 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:12:14am

re: #466 Creeping Eruption

OT: I think I'll forgo Cancun this year . . .

Retired General kidnapped, tortured, executed one week into anti-drug job in Cancun

Mexico is in serious danger of becoming a failed state. Scary shit.

488 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:12:20am

re: #477 Walter L. Newton

He is not a clinical narcissist. A big ego, evidently but he would not qualify as a narcissist accord to the DSM IV.

It's "fun" to tag people with certain mental illnesses, but unless you have seen the real thing, you don't know how very defined it is, and Obama does not show the actual symptoms.

He sure has me fooled.

489 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:12:29am

re: #484 Walter L. Newton

What kind of fucking jerk are you? Oh, that kind of fucking jerk, the fucking asshole dipshit kind or jerk.

That hole is getting deeper. He'll reach China soon.

490 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:12:50am

re: #411 claspur

Mandy's so Bright, that's why her Dad called her, Son. ;o)

Stercorem pro cerebro habes

491 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:12:57am

re: #485 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Insert question marks in there as you see fit.

492 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:12:57am

re: #472 Spare O'Lake

Even worse, I hate really bad puns, and for that I say "Flog the byastid!".

My clue-by-four is in the corner.

493 Erik The Red  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:13:05am

re: #426 claspur

I was being endearing, Mandy?

re: #430 Sharmuta

Is the only reason you're here is so you can abuse various posters?

Had a go at Walter and me last week. Good luck with MM clarpur.

494 claspur  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:13:10am

re: #473 Sharmuta

Stop posting bullshit and you wouldn't be getting dog piled.

So, Sham, you are what you oppose, elitestism, right?

495 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:13:15am

re: #476 J.S.

One of the building signs reads: "King's Cross" (now to become "King is Cross").

I assumed you were kidding. You're not?

496 Timbre  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:13:25am

re: #482 MandyManners

What will it take for them to get off the island?

De plane, boss, de plane! (had to write it.)

497 jwb7605  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:13:41am

re: #487 Occasional Reader

Mexico is in serious danger of becoming a failed state. Scary shit.

If that happens, Mexico will be coming to a city near you, no matter where you live.

498 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:13:42am

re: #365 claspur

Way OT/
You have to hear Spector on Laura Ingraham...

this guy needs to be taken-out,

and shown The Wall.

Her show comes on again later in the day, but I can't recall the station.

Bet a hundred, her ppl will post *This, to hear on her site tho.

Advocating violence against anyone on this site will get you banned.

499 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:13:51am

re: #480 WriterMom

OY. I'm hungry.

Are we still talking about the Bishop/bishop/not Bishop?

We were, until claspur decided to start hurling insults at MandyManners. Fire up the grill, if you're hungry, it's time for gamey buttocks wrapped in bacon on skewers, and baby potatoes and peppers.

500 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:14:11am
501 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:14:23am

re: #485 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Going to see a movie (Walter? Wanna come?). Any recommendations. Want to see Taken. That or SlumDog Millionaire. Is Slumdog a happy movie. Don't want to be depressed.

Slumdog is indeed a happy movie, and very well-done. I recommend it.

502 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:14:29am
503 Rancher  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:14:35am

re: #466 Creeping Eruption

OT: I think I'll forgo Cancun this year . . .

Retired General kidnapped, tortured, executed one week into anti-drug job in Cancun

Mexico has turned into a huge narco-terrorist state that shows no sign of improving. Drug money has corrupted the legal system much like alcohol prohibition corrupted Chicago and other cities in the twenties and thirties. Hand in hand with this is the gang problem in the US which finances and recruits using drug traffic profits. Chicago has again become more dangerous than most other cities in the world because of this. We need to legalize some drugs in this country and I believe once things get much worse we will.

504 alegrias  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:14:43am

Pres. Obama's taking to the airwaves to drone on, lecture, hector & otherwise "charm" any remaining thinking people into buying his crappola economics.

Image campaigning furiously to drown out opposition (3 Republicans out of 535 elected officials) and bamboozle idiots into demanding his massive collectivism (er, stimulus) plan.

It's like when democrats attacked Joe the Plumber, the only American who questioned Obama's "spread the wealth around" philosophy.

505 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:14:51am

re: #488 unreconstructed rebel

He sure has me fooled.

Well, I'm talking clinical. Look it up.

506 andymacop  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:15:05am

re: #362 lurking faith

I agree with you entirely. I think the current pope is an honest and intelligent man, but I also think he's a bit behind the times as far as public relations go. I don't expect the charisma of the previous pope, but a recognition that clear public statements need to be made FAST would be good.

True, but I get a little nervous about having to react to the court of public opinion and the MSM at every turn. The Church has always been slow about things, which has its good and bad points.

In regards to this case though, I take the lead from Charles and a Biblical professor of mine in the seminary: when faced with overwhelming evidence, the intransigent person must be mocked publicly early and often. He, of course, was referring to the strictly literal understanding of the entire body of Sacred Scripture.

507 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:15:06am

re: #466 Creeping Eruption

OT: I think I'll forgo Cancun this year . . .

Retired General kidnapped, tortured, executed one week into anti-drug job in Cancun

That is horrific.

508 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:15:22am

re: #492 MandyManners

My clue-by-four is in the corner.

Just wondering whether carve have notches into it?

509 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:15:25am

re: #497 jwb7605

If that happens, Mexico will be coming to a city near you, no matter where you live.

What do you mean 'will be'?

510 opnion  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:15:26am

re: #477 Walter L. Newton

He is not a clinical narcissist. A big ego, evidently but he would not qualify as a narcissist accord to the DSM IV.

It's "fun" to tag people with certain mental illnesses, but unless you have seen the real thing, you don't know how very defined it is, and Obama does not show the actual symptoms.

Ok, point taken, but he does act like he is the center of the Universe.
'We are the ones we've been waiting for" Greek columns, football stadiums, 'People of Berlin, people of the world"
Walter I only have psych 101 to go on , but I would not rule out Obama.

511 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:15:39am

re: #501 Occasional Reader

Slumdog is indeed a happy movie, and very well-done. I recommend it.

(I'll add; it's very tough in parts, but overall, will definitely not leave you depressed.)

512 Ben Hur  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:15:43am

Interesting that he believes events from 2000 years ago on faith, yet he doesn't believe the most documented (by the Nazis) event in history from only 60 years ago.

513 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:15:45am

re: #494 claspur

I value intelligence, which you have yet to show.

514 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:16:20am

re: #467 claspur

I don't abuse any post(er) . . .

You made a statement indicating that being "bright" is a male attribute.

You abused several posters here with that comment.

515 Gretchen  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:16:39am

re: #147 WriterMom
WriterMom, my point, was that abortion is part of church doctrine, views on the Holocaust aren't. It seems your views on abortion are clouding your logic. However, the church considers abortion a religious issue and murder. The church considers murder of 6 million Jews similar to murder of 6 million aborted babies. It isn't my view, it is the church's view. Sorry if you don't agree, or are offended, that isn't the point. The point isn't even if I agree, it is a statement of fact. This in no way, in the church's view, diminishes the evil of ANY 6 million (Holocaust numbers are probably much higher IMHO) murders. The church doesn't excommunicate people on the basis of idiotic historical views, or for denying that other people committed evil acts. My point was that even though prominent people refuted a standing church doctrine on a topic they consider murder (regardless of your opinion it is the church opinion that matters), they weren't excommunicated. Just because the guy is stupid, doesn't give the church cause to excommunicate him.

My point was was not meant to be offensive or even an opinion on abortion, just a clarification of the issue at hand. The only opinion on abortion germane to this this issue is the church's opinion, if you like substitute anti-death penalty for pro-abortion and fill in the name of Catholic politicians who are pro-death penalty.

The church wouldn't allow clergy to support abortion or deny the Holocaust, but has different standards for lay persons.

516 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:16:42am

re: #499 notutopia

We were, until claspur decided to start hurling insults at MandyManners. Fire up the grill, if you're hungry, it's time for gamey buttocks wrapped in bacon on skewers, and baby potatoes and peppers.

Mmm . . . gamey buttocks wrapped in bacon. Reminds me of jessica Simpson!

517 Golem Akbar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:16:50am

re: #500 Iron Fist

It does appear that way:

claspur

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

Karma: -69
Registered since: Dec 19, 2008 at 6:53 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 172
No. of links posted: 0

What does karma mean? [in the Lizard sense, not the other sense]

518 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:16:50am

re: #506 andymacop

True, but I get a little nervous about having to react to the court of public opinion and the MSM at every turn. The Church has always been slow about things, which has its good and bad points.

In regards to this case though, I take the lead from Charles and a Biblical professor of mine in the seminary: when faced with overwhelming evidence, the intransigent person must be mocked publicly early and often. He, of course, was referring to the strictly literal understanding of the entire body of Sacred Scripture.

Andy - glad to see you here.

519 ahaygood  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:16:57am

Get off it Charles... a man shouldn't be excommunicated just because of his views that are not directly theological. He should be excommunicated if he does something or is doing something morally wrong or destructive. Of course he shouldn't be given an official position, but the pope isn't doing that, and your title misleads to that effect.

520 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:17:04am

re: #510 opnion

Ok, point taken, but he does act like he is the center of the Universe.
'We are the ones we've been waiting for" Greek columns, football stadiums, 'People of Berlin, people of the world"
Walter I only have psych 101 to go on , but I would not rule out Obama.

My info comes from someone who would know. I can only pass on what I have been told.

521 albusteve  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:17:08am

re: #503 Rancher

Mexico has turned into a huge narco-terrorist state that shows no sign of improving. Drug money has corrupted the legal system much like alcohol prohibition corrupted Chicago and other cities in the twenties and thirties. Hand in hand with this is the gang problem in the US which finances and recruits using drug traffic profits. Chicago has again become more dangerous than most other cities in the world because of this. We need to legalize some drugs in this country and I believe once things get much worse we will.

the Mexican govt has never been anything but corrupt...ever

522 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:17:25am

re: #494 claspur

So, Sham, you are what you oppose, elitestism, right?

It'll be great for us when you get over the chicken pox and go back to school.

523 opnion  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:17:30am

re: #487 Occasional Reader

Mexico is in serious danger of becoming a failed state. Scary shit.

THe fallout here would be astronomical. We could not provide services for the mass exodus from Mexico.

524 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:17:53am

re: #499 notutopia

Well, I'll pass on the bacon, but have my tuna sandwich. I've gotta eat before I try to get a seat hearing Steyn at the Ontario legislature.

525 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:17:56am

re: #522 MandyManners

It'll be great for us when you get over the chicken pox and go back to school.

A pox on him!

526 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:01am

re: #517 Golem Akbar

What does karma mean? [in the Lizard sense, not the other sense]

Net of all updings and downdings to your various and sundry posts.

527 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:13am

re: #466 Creeping Eruption

Went to Cancun fifteen years ago (10 yr anniv), wife said, "Hey, let's go into town and check it out." I said, "Hey! Have you lost your freakin' mind?"

We stayed within the confines of our all inclusive, luxurious resort. Was fabulous. Never left the property.

Got home people said, did you see the town? Said, "I saw what I went to see. Pool. Beer. Sun. Nude wife."

528 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:34am

re: #516 Captain Amercia

Hey, she still looks good!

529 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:41am

re: #517 Golem Akbar

First rule about karma-don't talk about karma.

530 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:44am

re: #517 Golem Akbar

What does karma mean? [in the Lizard sense, not the other sense]

Total number of positive and negative dings that a commentor has accumulated.

531 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:51am

re: #511 Occasional Reader

Thanks.

532 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:53am

And yes- I'm a flaming elitist. The kind to help a 22 year old drunk girl on the bus, talk to her and try to calm her down, and get her off the bus, make sure she was at the right stop, and picked up her Starburst candy off the nasty bus floor. That kind of elitist.

533 Ben Hur  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:18:53am
He should be excommunicated if he does something or is doing something morally wrong or destructive.
534 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:07am

Lunchtime & I am hungry. Later.

535 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:07am

re: #528 rightside

Hey, she still looks good!

I agree. She'd look better wrapped in bacon, though. Everyone would look better in bacon!

536 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:07am

re: #494 claspur

So, Sham, you are what you oppose, elitestism, right?

Quando podeces te regi eorum fecerunt?

537 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:11am
538 opnion  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:12am

re: #520 Walter L. Newton

My info comes from someone who would know. I can only pass on what I have been told.

I'll take that as a more informed opnion, but you will give me that BHO has a HUGE ego?

539 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:13am

The democrats are desperate to control what we hear.

A new 'Fairness Doctrine?' Talk radio hosts debate its apparent resurgence

540 Afrocity  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:17am

Someone asked what will it take to get AA's off victim island... First they need to see that the DNC does nothing but exploit them. MLK was a Republican and wanted us to contribute to our country by being productive individuals. blacks used to be Republicans and it went downhill during the late 60's. I left the DEMS because I got sick of being blocked into constituencies like black, gay, woman, pro-choice etc. I am also sick of the whining on the left. The only thing that kept me a Democrat was my color and my pro-choice stance. After they nominated Obama I jumped ship.

541 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:32am

re: #498 MJ

Advocating violence against anyone on this site will get you banned.

I missed that one.

542 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:38am

re: #503 Rancher

Mexico has turned into a huge narco-terrorist state that shows no sign of improving. Drug money has corrupted the legal system much like alcohol prohibition corrupted Chicago and other cities in the twenties and thirties. Hand in hand with this is the gang problem in the US which finances and recruits using drug traffic profits. Chicago has again become more dangerous than most other cities in the world because of this. We need to legalize some drugs in this country and I believe once things get much worse we will.

I was having that discussion with my wife this morning (re drugs) I live in Wisconsin where it is common to see people on the news with their 5-12th DUI. It makes me sick. It is usually followed up (as this morning) with a news piece about a father and son killed in a head-on collision with a . . .you guessed it: Drunk driver. One of the reasons the laws are so weak here is because of the WI tavern league lobby but also politicians bitching about the cost. Well, if they stopped busting people for pot, locking them up and throwing away the cell, we would have more time, money and space to lock up these serial drunks who are a true menace.

-Rant off.

543 Golem Akbar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:50am

re: #526 Occasional Reader

Net of all updings and downdings to your various and sundry posts.

I didn't know that. thanks [still learning the ropes, you know]

544 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:54am

re: #519 ahaygood

Get off it Charles... a man shouldn't be excommunicated just because of his views that are not directly theological. He should be excommunicated if he does something or is doing something morally wrong or destructive. Of course he shouldn't be given an official position, but the pope isn't doing that, and your title misleads to that effect.

I meant to ding you down and hit the wrong button. Will someone please ding him down for me?
Thanks.

545 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:58am

re: #495 Occasional Reader

Unfortunately, it is indeed true that in Birmingham, England, the town council has decreed that all street and building signs will no longer be allowed to use an apostrophe...it's about being "anti-elitist" and classless...(i was, i think, joking about "King is Cross" being the new sign)...

546 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:59am

re: #508 Creeping Eruption

Just wondering whether carve have notches into it?

Nah.

547 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:20:04am

re: #529 WriterMom

'Tis very sexy to hear a woman quote "Fight Club".

548 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:20:17am
549 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:20:27am

re: #544 MJ

I meant to ding you down and hit the wrong button. Will someone please ding him down for me?
Thanks.

Dings are now correctable. Ding the minus button twice.

550 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:20:48am

re: #512 Ben Hur

Interesting that he believes events from 2000 years ago on faith, yet he doesn't believe the most documented (by the Nazis) event in history from only 60 years ago.

I had not considered that angle. Thank you for pointing it out.

551 abaleh  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:20:53am

re: #524 WriterMom

Well, I'll pass on the bacon, but have my tuna sandwich. I've gotta eat before I try to get a seat hearing Steyn at the Ontario legislature.

What's he doing in Queen's Park?

552 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:20:59am

re: #541 MandyManners

I missed that one.

I think he'll be gone in an hour or two, maybe less...

553 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:01am

re: #541 MandyManners

I missed that one.

HA. I guess Mandy whacks are not violent. ;-)

554 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:02am

re: #516 Captain Amercia

Mmm . . . gamey buttocks wrapped in bacon. Reminds me of jessica Simpson!

Pork En brochette
[Link: southernfood.about.com...]

555 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:07am

re: #547 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Don't get too excited. That's the only line I know. I never saw it.

556 jwb7605  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:09am

re: #509 tfc3rid

What do you mean 'will be'?

I mean Mexico coming to a town near you in a literal sense.
What we have going on currently is tame and lame if we end up with a "palestinian situation because of the whole country (Mexico) collapsing.

According to the survey conducted in July 2006, the population of Mexico is estimated around 107,449,525.
557 rawmuse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:10am

re: #539 FrogMarch

The democrats are desperate to control what we hear.

A new 'Fairness Doctrine?' Talk radio hosts debate its apparent resurgence

Watch for quick resurgence of this and a Slavery Reparations Act.

558 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:16am

re: #544 MJ

I meant to ding you down and hit the wrong button. Will someone please ding him down for me?
Thanks.

You can reverse your ding.
Go hit the minus twice.

559 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:17am

I applaud Gov. Mark Sanford of SC for his excellent commentary yesterday on the savior-based economy...

560 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:20am

re: #535 Captain Amercia

I agree. She'd look better wrapped in bacon, though. Everyone would look better in bacon!

Probably not if you're Jewish, or a Kosher(ish) Vegetarian Gentile.

561 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:27am

re: #551 abaleh

TESTIFYING! HALLELUYAH!

562 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:42am

re: #554 notutopia

Pork En brochette
[Link: southernfood.about.com...]

Wow, that sounds out of this world!

563 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:47am

re: #535 Captain Amercia


Like this?

564 Golem Akbar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:21:55am

re: #529 WriterMom

First rule about karma-don't talk about karma.

I'm speechless...
[hey, good morning to you WM; have fun listening to Steyn today]

565 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:22:10am

re: #560 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Probably not if you're Jewish, or a Kosher(ish) Vegetarian Gentile.


Or Muslim, I guess.

566 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:22:12am

re: #549 Sharmuta

Dings are now correctable. Ding the minus button twice.

Thanks. That worked.

567 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:22:31am

re: #524 WriterMom

Well, I'll pass on the bacon, but have my tuna sandwich. I've gotta eat before I try to get a seat hearing Steyn at the Ontario legislature.

Wonderbar! Keep us informed on his views please.

568 alegrias  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:22:40am

re: #537 buzzsawmonkey

Onthe radio today it said that Obama is going to hold "town meetings" inElkhart, IN and in Fort Meyers, FL to "build support for the stimulus."

Excuse me, but that's campaigning; it's not governing. Obama reportedly has sufficient votes to pass his bloated excrescence; what is he doing campaigning for it instead of passing it and doing whatever he intends to do with it?

He really doesn't seem to know the difference between seeking office and fulfilling the duties of office once obtained.

* * * *

Pres. Obama's doing a "THuggo Chavez", campaigning on the public airwaves against that Devil, American Capitalism's remaining proponents.

Obama wants to feel your love, people! Give it ALL up to Presidentissimo Obama.

(anyone else notice the ANTI-Chavez protests this weekend?)

569 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:22:51am

re: #563 rightside

Like this?

Yummy! And with the grease, it slips right off!

570 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:22:59am

re: #566 MJ

No problem.

571 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:22:59am

re: #535 Captain Amercia

I agree. She'd look better wrapped in bacon, though. Everyone would look better in bacon!

Even Miss Piggy?
(I knew a girl in college who would have looked like Miss Piggy, but Miss Piggy hadn't been invented yet.)

572 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:23:00am

re: #545 J.S.

...it's about being "anti-elitist" and classless

Apostrophes are elitist?

The world has gone mad.

573 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:23:06am
574 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:23:13am

re: #544 MJ

They are reversible.

575 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:23:28am

re: #544 MJ

You can re-ding. Down-ding twice to make up for an errant up-ding. Down ding an up-ding once, cancel the ding. Up-ding a down-ding twice to make up for an errant down ding.

Dang.

576 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:23:28am

re: #571 Kosh's Shadow

Even Miss Piggy?
(I knew a girl in college who would have looked like Miss Piggy, but Miss Piggy hadn't been invented yet.)

Was her name Rosie O'Donnell?

577 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:23:30am

re: #499 notutopia

We were, until claspur decided to start hurling insults at MandyManners. Fire up the grill, if you're hungry, it's time for gamey buttocks wrapped in bacon on skewers, and baby potatoes and peppers.


May I suggest Sweet Baby Ray's BBQ Sauce? It's really good.

578 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:23:32am

re: #532 Sharmuta

And yes- I'm a flaming elitist. The kind to help a 22 year old drunk girl on the bus, talk to her and try to calm her down, and get her off the bus, make sure she was at the right stop, and picked up her Starburst candy off the nasty bus floor. That kind of elitist.

I do appreciate your assistance the other night. Did I remember to give you a grape Starburst?

579 alegrias  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:24:05am

re: #542 Creeping Eruption

I was having thatdiscussion with my wife this morning (re drugs) I live in Wisconsinwhere it is common to see people on the news with their 5-12th DUI. Itmakes me sick. It is usually followed up (as this morning) with a newspiece about a father and son killed in a head-on collision with a . ..you guessed it: Drunk driver. One of the reasons the laws are so weakhere is because of the WI tavern league lobby but also politiciansbitching about the cost. Well, if they stopped busting people for pot,locking them up and throwing away the cell, we would have more time,money and space to lock up these serial drunks who are a true menace.

-Rant off.

* * * *
Yeah great, then we taxpayers have to pay for your marijuana-induced testicular cancer treatment.

580 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:24:09am

re: #544 MJ

I meant to ding you down and hit the wrong button. Will someone please ding him down for me?
Thanks.

Go back and fix it yourself. Charles has allowed the ability to change of choice of ding. Just hit the "-" if you hit the "+" by mistake to begin with.

581 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:24:17am

Just saw on Drudge that the jihadis have taken to burning down forests, setting fires as *terrorism*. Religion of peace. Your text to link...

582 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:24:26am

re: #537 buzzsawmonkey

On the radio today it said that Obama is going to hold "town meetings" in Elkhart, IN and in Fort Meyers, FL to "build support for the stimulus."

Excuse me, but that's campaigning; it's not governing. Obama reportedly has sufficient votes to pass his bloated excrescence; what is he doing campaigning for it instead of passing it and doing whatever he intends to do with it?

He really doesn't seem to know the difference between seeking office and fulfilling the duties of office once obtained.

Did you read about the home meetings CBBHO is wanting his followers to host?

583 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:24:26am

re: #538 opnion

I'll take that as a more informed opnion, but you will give me that BHO has a HUGE ego?

Yes, I said that to someone above, you or someone. But a big ego does not not make a narcissist. A narcissist has personality traits that are actually dangerous to himself and everyone around him. A true clinical narcissist could not manage to function as president on a daily basis.

584 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:24:26am

re: #575 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

ShamWow ding dong!

585 Rancher  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:24:27am

re: #521 albusteve

the Mexican govt has never been anything but corrupt...ever

But it's been functional, and it is rapidly becoming dysfunctional. Case in point, tourism once brought in allot of money, now everyone is afraid to go down there. The tourists areas are still relatively safe but that too will change in time.

586 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:24:39am

re: #576 Captain Amercia

Was her name Rosie O'Donnell?

No; she was better looking than Rosie. Also more intelligent and a nicer person, although none of these are particularly difficult marks to reach.

587 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:24:47am

re: #553 unreconstructed rebel

HA. I guess Mandy whacks are not violent. ;-)

Depends which bat she uses. The padded one for those she loves or the spiked one for those she doesn't.

588 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:02am

re: #584 rightside

ShamWow ding dong!

"You're gonna love my nuts!" - Vince, The ShamWow Guy

589 MJ  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:13am

re: #580 Honorary Yooper

Go back and fix it yourself. Charles has allowed the ability to change of choice of ding. Just hit the "-" if you hit the "+" by mistake to begin with.

Yup. I just learned about that new trick. Mission accomplished.

590 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:16am
591 rawmuse  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:24am

re: #581 Wishing

I have long suspected that motive in California as well.

592 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:42am

re: #577 HoosierHoops

May I suggest Sweet Baby Ray's BBQ Sauce? It's really good.

Never tried it. I'll look at the local kitchy store here and see if they carry it. Is it vinegar based? I don't like vinegar sauces. That's what they use here in NC. I'm used to Texas type sauces.

593 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:45am

re: #532 Sharmuta

And yes- I'm a flaming elitist. The kind to help a 22 year old drunk girl on the bus, talk to her and try to calm her down, and get her off the bus, make sure she was at the right stop, and picked up her Starburst candy off the nasty bus floor. That kind of elitist.

You know, it just isn't fair; when *I* try to help 22 year-old drunk girls, it's all "restraining order" this, and "pepper spray" that...

/

594 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:25:50am

hey that shamwow guy now advertises a chopping thing.......in the commercial he says something about liking nuts.....i only saw the commercial once but have been chuckling ever since

595 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:00am
in the Saturday article, Spiegel quotes Williamson saying he will not recant and that he would need more evidence to believe the Holocaust really happened. “If I find this proof, then I will correct myself,” he said. “But that will require some time.”

This is doing big damage to the church.

Throw this (and here I would use bad words) out.

— signed, Ojoe, bad Catholic.

596 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:15am

re: #590 Iron Fist

I was thinking Pink Floyd.

597 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:15am

re: #539 FrogMarch

The democrats are desperate to control what we hear.

A new 'Fairness Doctrine?' Talk radio hosts debate its apparent resurgence

Marvin doesn't understand supply and demand at all.

598 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:23am

re: #579 alegrias

* * * *
Yeah great, then we taxpayers have to pay for your marijuana-induced testicular cancer treatment.

Don't partake myself, and . . .huh? Hadn't heard the connection to testicular cancer.

599 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:25am

re: #578 MandyManners

That poor girl really needed some help. Thank you for the hug and "God bless you" you gave me.

600 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:26am

re: #594 phoenixgirl

hey that shamwow guy now advertises a chopping thing.......in the commercial he says something about liking nuts.....i only saw the commercial once but have been chuckling ever since

what capt. amercia said!

601 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:27am

re: #588 Captain Amercia

I have to guffaw everytime I see that guy!

602 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:40am

re: #431 tfc3rid
Geez, you Mets fans are really bitter, ya know?
;')

603 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:49am
604 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:50am

re: #594 phoenixgirl

hey that shamwow guy now advertises a chopping thing.......in the commercial he says something about liking nuts.....i only saw the commercial once but have been chuckling ever since

See my #588

605 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:26:56am

re: #592 notutopia

Sweet Baby Rays' is not vinegar based. Totally sweet.

606 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:27:34am

re: #540 Afrocity

Someone asked what will it take to get AA's off victim island... First they need to see that the DNC does nothing but exploit them. MLK was a Republican and wanted us to contribute to our country by being productive individuals. blacks used to be Republicans and it went downhill during the late 60's. I left the DEMS because I got sick of being blocked into constituencies like black, gay, woman, pro-choice etc. I am also sick of the whining on the left. The only thing that kept me a Democrat was my color and my pro-choice stance. After they nominated Obama I jumped ship.

Have you discussed with any of your friends/family members the fact that Lincoln was a Republican and that those who perpetrated Jim Crow were Democrats?

607 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:27:37am
608 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:27:44am

re: #581 Wishing

Just saw on Drudge that the jihadis have taken to burning down forests, setting fires as *terrorism*. Religion of peace. Your text to link...

As Alfred observed in The Dark Knight: "Some people just want to watch the world burn."

609 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:28:07am

re: #600 phoenixgirl

what capt. amercia said!

"Ya followin' me, camera guy?"

610 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:28:08am

re: #593 Occasional Reader

You know, it just isn't fair; when *I* try to help 22 year-old drunk girls, it's all "restraining order" this, and "pepper spray" that...

/

But enough about your wife's reaction. :p

611 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:28:17am

re: #597 MandyManners

Marvin doesn't understand supply and demand at all.

He never really did. He was on the air here in Chicago, M-F, 9-11am, and understood the concept so poorly, he was off the air within a couple of years.

612 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:28:32am

re: #603 buzzsawmonkey

I heard something about it. TARP-Aware parties instead of Tupperware parties, or something of the sort, right?

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

613 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:28:53am

re: #608 Occasional Reader

As Alfred observed in The Dark Knight: "Some people just want to watch the world burn."

Speaking of walls....

614 alegrias  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:29:03am

re: #598 Creeping Eruption

Don't partake myself, and . . .huh? Hadn't heard the connection to testicular cancer.

* * * *

Glad you're not part of the demand side of our nation's DISGUSTING weakening drug addictions.

Yes, news reports out today link dope usage to higher testicular cancer rates.

615 Timbre  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:29:05am

re: #503 Rancher

re: #542 Creeping Eruption

Not trying to start a fight, just saying--I do not think legalizing methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, will make America a greater country. The choice does not have to be between legalization and prison sentences. There is intermediate ground. As a criminal justice worker, I have long been in favor of the concept of convictions without incarceration. The record will reflect the person committed a misdemeanor or minor felony, but we won't toss them in with predators inside jails and prisons.

616 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:29:10am

re: #609 Captain Amercia
Why does he wear a headset/mic?

*Slapchop my nuts*

617 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:29:23am

re: #594 phoenixgirl

hey that shamwow guy now advertises a chopping thing.......in the commercial he says something about liking nuts.....i only saw the commercial once but have been chuckling ever since

The "slap chop" or something like that. I hit "mute" for most ads.
Although the new Hulu one is pretty good. Even if it does have Alec Baldwin in it.

618 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:29:47am

re: #607 Iron Fist

We'veWeve already elected the One as President. Any further points of evidence that the world has, indeed, gone mad are just piling on.

Not the there'stheres anything wrong with that.

You post has been de-elitized, Comrade. Do not make that mistake again!

619 Killian Bundy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:29:51am

Islam group urges forest fire jihad

AUSTRALIA has been singled out as a target for "forest jihad" by a group of Islamic extremists urging Muslims to deliberately light bushfires as a weapon of terror.

US intelligence channels earlier this year identified a website calling on Muslims in Australia, the US, Europe and Russia to "start forest fires", claiming "scholars have justified chopping down and burning the infidels' forests when they do the same to our lands".

The website, posted by a group called the Al-Ikhlas Islamic Network, argues in Arabic that lighting fires is an effective form of terrorism justified in Islamic law under the "eye for an eye" doctrine.

/hey California, you paying attention?

620 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:29:53am

re: #616 rightside

Why does he wear a headset/mic?

*Slapchop my nuts*

Because he can complete the "tool" ensemble. He must think he's an air traffic controller or something.

621 Gretchen  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:30:02am

re: #232 quickjustice

Excellent point, the church is against mass murder, however, many church liberals view mass murder as the "Innocent Palestinians" supposedly murdered in cold blood by Israelis and mass murder of all those 100,000 dead Iraqi babies Saddam would parade around under US sanctions. I don't make the comparison, but some would, diminishing the horror of the Holocaust even more.

622 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:30:04am
623 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:30:06am

re: #614 alegrias

* * * *

Glad you're not part of the demand side of our nation's DISGUSTING weakening drug addictions.

Yes, news reports out today link dope usage to higher testicular cancer rates.

Not on the demand side, but I do not see any point in locking up people for smoking pot.

624 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:30:25am

re: #590 Iron Fist

I didn't take it as advocating violence. I took "the Wall" to be a reference to Israel's security barrier against 'Splodeydopes.

I could be remembering incorrectly but, they weren't talking about the Israeli wall but about the spending package.

625 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:30:27am

re: #617 Kosh's Shadow

The "slap chop" or something like that. I hit "mute" for most ads.
Although the new Hulu one is pretty good. Even if it does have Alec Baldwin in it.

Yeah, and the end of Hulu commercial explains Alec Baldwin to a T. If you've seen it, you know exactly what I mean.

626 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:30:27am

re: #605 rightside

Sweet Baby Rays' is not vinegar based. Totally sweet.


Thanks.
Not that the name isn't redundant...
It's just around here, in NC, everyone is called "sweetie".
/ And some are definitely NOT deserving.

627 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:30:41am

re: #495 Occasional Reader

King of the who?

King of the Britons.

Who are the Britons?

We're all Britons, and I'm your King. ...

628 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:30:42am

re: #605 rightside

Sweet Baby Rays' is not vinegar based. Totally sweet.


It is really good..Especially for BBQing Trolls.

629 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:30:54am

re: #581 Wishing

They do that in Israelr all the time.

630 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:04am
631 alegrias  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:18am

re: #603 buzzsawmonkey

I heard something about it. TARP-Aware parties instead of Tupperware parties, or something of the sort, right?

* * * *

That's so communist, plotting how to take your neighbor's property! Right out of Dr. Zhivago, where his house filled up with "comrades" declaring Zhivago's house "community organized" and no longer his personal property.

632 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:19am

re: #627 Ojoe

King of the who?

King of the Britons.

Who are the Britons?

We're all Britons, and I'm your King. ...

Well I didn't vote for you.

633 opnion  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:19am

re: #583 Walter L. Newton

Yes, I said that to someone above, you or someone. But a big ego does not not make a narcissist. A narcissist has personality traits that are actually dangerous to himself and everyone around him. A true clinical narcissist could not manage to function as president on a daily basis.

Good info, thanks

634 USCMSNE  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:22am
During the camp inspections with his top commanders Eisenhower said that the atrocities were “beyond the American mind to comprehend.” He ordered that every citizen of the town of Gotha personally tour the camp and, after having done so, the mayor and his wife went home and hanged themselves. Later on Ike wrote to Mamie, “I never dreamed that such cruelty, bestiality, and savagery could really exist in this world.” He cabled General Marshall to suggest that he come to Germany and see these camps for himself. He encouraged Marshall to bring Congressmen and journalists with him. It would be many months before the world would know the full scope of the Holocaust — many months before they knew that the Nazi murder apparatus that was being discovered at Buchenwald and dozens of other death camps had slaughtered millions of innocent people.

General Eisenhower understood that many people would be unable to comprehend the full scope of this horror. He also understood that any human deeds that were so utterly evil might eventually be challenged or even denied as being literally unbelievable. For these reasons he ordered that all the civilian news media and military combat camera units be required to visit the camps and record their observations in print, pictures and film. As he explained to General Marshall, “I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to ‘propaganda.’”

His prediction proved correct. When some groups, even today, attempt to deny that the Holocaust ever happened they are must confront the massive official record, including both written evidence and thousands of pictures, that Eisenhower ordered to be assembled when he saw what the Nazis had done.

[Link: www.eisenhowermemorial.org...]

635 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:28am

re: #603 buzzsawmonkey

I heard something about it. TARP-Aware parties instead of Tupperware parties, or something of the sort, right?

Oh, you're good.

636 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:31am

re: #619 Killian Bundy

Just what we need here.

637 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:36am

re: #617 Kosh's Shadow

The "slap chop" or something like that. I hit "mute" for most ads.
Although the new Hulu one is pretty good. Even if it does have Alec Baldwin in it.

*TV, turning your brains into mush...* Great commercial! I wanted to vote for it on HULU on Super Bowl game day, but it wasn't listed. It was the best of the lot, imo.

638 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:54am

re: #632 Ford_Prefect

Yep, me neither.

639 soxfan4life  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:31:54am

re: #626 notutopia

Thanks.
Not that the name isn't redundant...
It's just around here, in NC, everyone is called "sweetie".
/ And some are definitely NOT deserving.


You know you're in trouble in NC when you hear bless your heart.

640 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:32:06am

re: #599 Sharmuta

That poor girl really needed some help. Thank you for the hug and "God bless you" you gave me.

I hope you gently kicked her ass.

641 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:32:28am

re: #628 HoosierHoops

It is really good..Especially for BBQing Trolls.

I'll look for it today. Thanks for the tip suggestion.

642 yochanan  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:32:34am

(self deleted)

643 Bloodnok  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:32:38am

re: #619 Killian Bundy

Islam group urges forest fire jihad


/hey California, you paying attention?

/Smokeythebear Akbar!

644 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:32:58am

re: #639 soxfan4life

You know you're in trouble in NC when you hear bless your heart.

UGH!

645 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:33:05am

re: #630 buzzsawmonkey

LOL

646 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:33:06am

re: #611 Honorary Yooper

He never really did. He was on the air here in Chicago, M-F, 9-11am, and understood the concept so poorly, he was off the air within a couple of years.

I noticed that he was labeled "progressive" instead of "liberal".

647 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:33:18am

re: #609 Captain Amercia

"Ya followin' me, camera guy?"

everywhere you go.......

648 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:33:22am

re: #619 Killian Bundy

Islam group urges forest fire jihad

/hey California, you paying attention?

They have been doing this for years in Israel. Thousands of hectares of JNF forests have been destroyed.

649 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:33:23am

re: #640 MandyManners

No- I helped this poor girl. Another rider on the bus called me a saint.

650 rightside  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:33:58am

Lunch, BBL

651 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:34:15am

The dryer buzzer is barking at me. bbiab

652 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:34:33am

re: #577 HoosierHoops

May I suggest Sweet Baby Ray's BBQ Sauce? It's really good.

Mmmm... Sweet BabyRay's with Brown Sugar... MMM

653 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:34:41am

re: #395 Sharmuta
You know Sharm, there are times when it's actually beneficial to READ what a poster says.
I said:
"I sincerely doubt that "creationists" are trying to cram creationism down our throats. People who are at or support the Disco Institute YES. But I know a few "creationists" who, quite frankly, don't care whether or not I believe in creationism (other than, I suppose, perhaps praying for my salvation). I've engaged them in discussing YEC (which they all seem to be) and talk about carbon dating and all and they smile and say something to the effect of "to each his own". Now the Disco Institute, Ben Stein and his lot DO CARE ABOUT cramming it down our throats and about teaching it in the public schools, but as wrong and as slimy as I think they are, I really don't see them calling for genocide, ya know?

You seem to think that everyone who beleives in creationism is working hard for the same goals as the Disco Institute and Ben Stein. As if creationists had some sort of "club" where you have to pledge to try to MAKE others believe in what you say. That's simply NOT true.

654 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:34:41am

My6'7' cousin, grandson of survivors, who personally told me their stories, would love five minutes alone with this cleric to share some evidence with him. He is very convincing and has all the information the Bishop needs, right at his fingertips.

The Bishop could read Goldenhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners or watch any of the survivor videos available or start here.

Or read these:

Cornwell, John. Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII. New York: Viking, 1999.

Friedlaender, Saul. Pius XII and the Third Reich: A Documentation. New York: Knopf, 1966.

Lapide, Pinachas, The Last Three Popes and the Jews. London: Souvenir Press, 1967

Phayer, Michael, The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930-1965. Bloomington, Ind.: Indiana University Press, 2000

Morley, John. Vatican Diplomacy and the Jews during the Holocaust, 1939--1943. New York: Ktav, 1980.

Rittner, Carol et al. eds. The Holocaust and the Christian World, Reflections on the Past, Challenges for the Future, London: Kupard, 2000

Phayer, Michael, The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930-1965. Bloomington, Ind.: Indiana University Press, 2000

Rittner, Carol et al. eds. The Holocaust and the Christian World, Reflections on the Past, Challenges for the Future, London: Kupard, 2000

Zuccotti, Susan, Under His Very Windows: The Vatican and the Holocaust in Italy. New Haven, Conn: Yale University Press, 2000

I was able to put together this in under three minutes. The only barrier is you have to want to do so.

655 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:35:01am

re: #628 HoosierHoops

It is really good..Especially for BBQing Trolls.

Sounds like the LGF cafeteria menu.

BBQ Troll
BBQ Sacred Cow
BBQ Moby
Deep-fried Troll
Buffalo-style Sacred Cow (Almost too hot to handle)
Roasted Chickenshit Troll

656 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:35:16am

re: #523 opnion

THe fallout here would be astronomical. We could not provide services for the mass exodus from Mexico.

I thought we already did provide services for the mass exodus from Mexico...

657 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:36:13am

re: #606 MandyManners

The Democrats voted as a party to block the 13th Amendment when Lincoln was still alive.

658 Golem Akbar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:36:22am

re: #581 Wishing

Just saw on Drudge that the jihadis have taken to burning down forests, setting fires as *terrorism*. Religion of peace. Your text to link...

The Jihadis used that tactic in Israel a few years ago (still looking for that particular link, but I'm on it). Now, if the Greens Movement would only determine that Jihad is not Green...

659 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:36:22am

re: #603 buzzsawmonkey

I heard something about it. TARP-Aware parties instead of Tupperware parties, or something of the sort, right?

I thought Tupperware was good for leftie-overs.

660 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:36:37am

re: #647 phoenixgirl

everywhere you go.......

He's the new Billy Mays, and less irritating, actually.

661 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:36:39am

re: #649 Sharmuta

No- I helped this poor girl. Another rider on the bus called me a saint.

Sharmuta, you were for her. Human Guardian Angel!
I have assisted elder people who have fallen in the stores or, on an icy sidewalk and others have just looked and walked around them. What is wrong with the human side of us in assisting others who are in obvious help and need? I don't get it either.

662 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:36:49am

re: #631 alegrias

* * * *

That's so communist, plotting how to take your neighbor's property! Right out of Dr. Zhivago, where his house filled up with "comrades" declaring Zhivago's house "community organized" and no longer his personal property.

Er, buzzsaw was making a joke.

But in Soviet Russia, TARPawared burps you!

663 jwb7605  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:36:54am

re: #656 Leonidas Hoplite

I thought we already did provide services for the mass exodus from Mexico...

The exodus from Mexico is just a trickle compared to what you would/will see if the country collapses.

Think Palestine with no controlled border.

664 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:36:56am

re: #602 realwest

Geez, you Mets fans are really bitter, ya know?
;')

Yes, and the coming season will only make me more bitter! Especially if Congress forces the name off my ballpark, my team's payroll may be reduced greatly because of the lost $$.

665 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:37:20am

re: #632 Ford_Prefect

Well I didn't vote for you.

You don't vote for your king.

Well how did you become king, then?

667 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:38:03am

re: #664 tfc3rid

Yes, and the coming season will only make me more bitter! Especially if Congress forces the name off my ballpark, my team's payroll may be reduced greatly because of the lost $$.

And if you collapse for the third time in a row in September. Giggles from a Phillies fan here.

668 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:38:07am

The Telegraph in the UK has just ripped Obama as an amateur act at the wrong time in history.

669 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:38:11am

re: #649 Sharmuta

No- I helped this poor girl. Another rider on the bus called me a saint.

I hope she doesn't come across someone with hidden, nefarious motives.

670 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:38:12am

re: #632 Ford_Prefect

Well I didn't vote for you.

You don't vote for kings.

671 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:38:18am

So Obama is personally taking over the census in order to rig local state districts and expand the democrats power hold.

How totalitarian.

672 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:38:48am

re: #658 Golem Akbar

The Jihadis used that tactic in Israel a few years ago (still looking for that particular link, but I'm on it). Now, if the Greens Movement would only determine that Jihad is not Green...

And on the other hand, the jihadists should think this tactic over, too. If they burn down all the trees, then how will the Talking Trees tell them on Judgment Day where the joos are hiding?

673 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:39:13am

re: #668 karmic_inquisitor

The Telegraph in the UK has just ripped Obama as an amateur act at the wrong time in history.

They are wise beyond belief.

674 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:39:37am

re: #664 tfc3rid
" Congress forces the name off my ballpark," - uh, how are they going to do that (serious question here)?

675 SasquatchOnSteroids  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:39:40am

Blaming Madoff, man sues over divorce settlement

Steven Simkin and Laura Blank held $5.4 million in a Madoff account, according to a statement provided by Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities at the time of the couple's separation in 2004, the lawsuit filed in New York State Supreme Court said.

Simkin paid Blank, his wife of 30 years, half as part of their uncontested divorce settlement, the lawsuit said. That meant she avoided losses caused by Madoff's alleged fraud.

That's what happens when you pull out too late...

676 Last Mohican  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:39:40am

re: #646 MandyManners

I noticed that he was labeled "progressive" instead of "liberal".

I've never been happy with liberals' appropriation of "progressive" as a meaningless, nice-sounding euphemism for "liberal." I personally have some values that could be described as liberal-leaning, and I don't think that "liberal" is a dirty word. Even so, I find "progressive" to be dishonest and insulting.

Maybe conservatives should come up with some even more meaningless, nice-sounding euphemism for "conservative." How about "reasonable" or "intelligent." Maybe just "good."

677 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:39:45am

re: #666 Ojoe

And if you like neither the Republicans nor the Democrats, the Whig party is starting up again.

Gimmicks like that usually ensure we get the Socialist Marxist/Democrats by default.

678 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:39:59am
679 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:40:00am

re: #657 Ojoe

The Democrats voted as a party to block the 13th Amendment when Lincoln was still alive.

I wonder how many know that today.

680 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:40:10am

wow, sometimes it's hard keep from slamming my head into the wall...

681 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:40:16am

re: #668 karmic_inquisitor

The Telegraph in the UK has just ripped Obama as an amateur act at the wrong time in history.

Ouch!

682 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:40:28am

re: #636 Ojoe

Just what we need here.

If you play with fire, you eventually get burned.

683 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:40:32am

re: #660 Captain Amercia

He's the new Billy Mays, and less irritating, actually.

NO ONE will EVER repalce Billy Mays... Sliders anyone?

684 notutopia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:40:34am

BBL.

685 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:40:48am

re: #661 notutopia

Sharmuta, you were for her. Human Guardian Angel!
I have assisted elder people who have fallen in the stores or, on an icy sidewalk and others have just looked and walked around them. What is wrong with the human side of us in assisting others who are in obvious help and need? I don't get it either.

Honestly- it was strange, because this girl was drunk and ranting about not liking negativity. I think it made her cry more that someone was being positive and trying to help her. She was really loaded.

686 yochanan  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:04am

re: #4 notutopia

I have got to give it to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, she is turning out to be a great ANTIanti-semitic bulldog!

FIXED THAT ONE FOR YOU

687 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:06am

re: #667 Captain Amercia

And if you collapse for the third time in a row in September. Giggles from a Phillies fan here.

No worries, it's not even going to be that close...

688 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:07am

re: #679 MandyManners

Oprah does not know, so few others know.

689 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:07am

re: #676 Last Mohican

I've never been happy with liberals' appropriation of "progressive" as a meaningless, nice-sounding euphemism for "liberal."

I'm not too crazy about their appropriation of "liberal", for that matter (which has come to mean in the US almost exactly the opposite of its classical meaning).

690 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:13am

re: #672 Occasional Reader

And on the other hand, the jihadists should think this tactic over, too. If they burn down all the trees, then how will the Talking Trees tell them on Judgment Day where the joos are hiding?

"I talk to the trees, that's why they put me away"

Peter Sellers

The Goon Show

691 Golem Akbar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:26am

re: #672 Occasional Reader

And on the other hand, the jihadists should think this tactic over, too. If they burn down all the trees, then how will the Talking Trees tell them on Judgment Day where the joos are hiding?


True-dat! Of course, there will still be the frickin' talking rocks. /Man, a Jew just can't get a break...

692 Last Mohican  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:32am

re: #658 Golem Akbar

The Jihadis used that tactic in Israel a few years ago (still looking for that particular link, but I'm on it). Now, if the Greens Movement would only determine that Jihad is not Green...

That'll never work. Islamists torture homosexuals to death and teach men to beat their wives into submission. If liberals don't have a problem with that (and they don't), I don't think they'll mind a few forest fires.

693 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:36am

re: #673 Captain Amercia

They are wise beyond belief.

"he has admitted he "screwed up" and is returning to one thing in his political career that he has perfected – campaigning."

Oh goody, which is basically the same as telling the country "Here!"

694 x-wing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:42am

re: #674 realwest

" Congress forces the name off my ballpark," - uh, how are they going to do that (serious question here)?

It's called Citi-Field

695 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:45am

re: #665 Leonidas Hoplite

You don't vote for your king.

Well how did you become king, then?

The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, indicating that by Divine Providence, I, Arthur are to be King of England.

696 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:41:58am

re: #616 rightside

Why does he wear a headset/mic?

*Slapchop my nuts*

Ever go to a state fair? The product salesmen all wear them. I bet Vince can't do his thing without it.

697 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:42:11am

re: #665 Leonidas Hoplite

You don't vote for your king.

Well how did you become king, then?

The Lady Of The Lake held aloft Excalibur, signifying by Divine right that I, Arthur, shall be king. That is why I am your King.

698 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:42:18am

BBL (work, er, promotion, there is no work now)

699 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:42:22am

re: #670 Kosh's Shadow

You don't vote for kings.

Youtube Video
700 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:42:24am

oprah says "light your candles"

701 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:42:28am

re: #689 Occasional Reader

Absolutely. Liberal used to mean pro-liberty, as in pro-freedom, being in favour of limited government, of personal and economic liberty.

702 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:42:39am

re: #653 realwest

I highly doubt these creationist friends of yours are going to write letters to the legislators in support of teaching evolution. They may not be actively working for this goal, but they're not going to stop it either.

703 yochanan  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:42:55am

re: #655 Honorary Yooper

Sounds like the LGF cafeteria menu.

BBQ Troll
BBQ Sacred Cow
BBQ Moby
Deep-fried Troll
Buffalo-style Sacred Cow (Almost too hot to handle)
Roasted Chickenshit Troll

OLD BLAGO SCAPE GOAT

704 ciaospirit  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:43:10am

re: #679 MandyManners

I know you had asked about the Marine Band. I emailed them and this is the response.

The Marine Band is still functioning in its usual fashion at the White House with its regular duties.

Regards,

Brian Rust
Staff Sergeant, USMC
Public Affairs Specialist
"The President's Own" U.S. Marine Band

705 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:43:14am

re: #671 FrogMarch

So Obama is personally taking over the census in order to rig local state districts and expand the democrats power hold.

How totalitarian.

That is EXACTLY what he is doing... Full blown Marxist-Commie...

706 Ben Hur  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:43:25am

re: #581 Wishing

Just saw on Drudge that the jihadis have taken to burning down forests, setting fires as *terrorism*. Religion of peace. Your text to link...

This is not directed at you.

BUT,

I'm glad Drudge has noticed that the jihadis have suddenly taken to doing something that they have been already doing for decades in Israel.

It's an friggin' annual event in Israel.

It is incredibly frustrating as an American/Israeli that has closely followed events in Israel long before even living there for over a decade when again and again tactics that have been used FOREVAH are called "new" tactics in this country or other countries.

If the world didn't ignore the "tactics" when used elsewhere, they wouldn't be shocked by these "NEW" tactics when they are used against others.

I've posted many times before, that there wasn't ONE NEW TACTIC used against the US and Nato in Iraq and Afganistan that hadn't already been used against Israel in Lebanon, "Territories," etc.

Well, there was one new thing. Road-side bombs suddenly became IEDs.

Our budding officers sitting at West Point, Citidel and Annapolis study military tactics used throughout history.

The jihadis do the same thing. Once a tactic is ALLOWED to be successful, it's used elsewhere.

So excuse me if it pisses me off when we'll start hearing about the NEW TACTIC of setting forest/bush/wild fires as terrorism.

Yes, if a tree falls in the woods and no one reports on it outside of the woods, it still makes a friggin noise.

This also pertains to non-military tactics.

As in MSM manipulation, Israel had Jenin Jack way before you guys had Bagdad Bob.

Abu Graib and Gitmo are the Meggido and whatever the effen name of that Israeli security prison that was in S Leb when Israel needed the buffer zone, of today.

It's a broken friggin record that plays over and over again and is sold as new.

The MSM (and western govs) will bend over backwards to convince you that the Islamic terrorism against Israel is somehow different than the INTERNATIONAL Islamic terrorism against the rest of the west.

Rant suspended until further notice.

707 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:43:34am

Obama gives Camp David retreat rave reviews, calls it fun place to relax away from Washington

...Obama told reporters that "the girls had a great time." And he said the presidential getaway "is going to be a nice place" to relax — away from the pressures of life at the White House.

I bet he will spend more time there than at the WH.

708 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:43:46am

re: #671 FrogMarch

So Obama is personally taking over the census in order to rig local state districts and expand the democrats power hold.

How totalitarian.

Obama is very much a liberal fascist. I read Goldberg's words about Hillary Clinton, and kept thinking about how much better they fit Barack Obama.

709 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:43:51am

re: #674 realwest

" Congress forces the name off my ballpark," - uh, how are they going to do that (serious question here)?

They can't but I cannot imagine it ending well...

710 Kragar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:43:56am

Islam group urges forest fire jihad

AUSTRALIA has been singled out as a target for "forest jihad" by a group of Islamic extremists urging Muslims to deliberately light bushfires as a weapon of terror.

US intelligence channels earlier this year identified a website calling on Muslims in Australia, the US, Europe and Russia to "start forest fires", claiming "scholars have justified chopping down and burning the infidels' forests when they do the same to our lands".

The website, posted by a group called the Al-Ikhlas Islamic Network, argues in Arabic that lighting fires is an effective form of terrorism justified in Islamic law under the "eye for an eye" doctrine.

The posting — which instructs jihadis to remember "forest jihad" in summer months — says fires cause economic damage and pollution, tie up security agencies and can take months to extinguish so that "this terror will haunt them for an extended period of time".

"Imagine if, after all the losses caused by such an event, a jihadist organisation were to claim responsibility for the forest fires," the website says. "You can hardly begin to imagine the level of fear that would take hold of people in the United States, in Europe, in Russia and in Australia."

711 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:44:03am

lil wayne said, "it's what i'm about miss katie"

712 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:44:13am

re: #695 Kosh's Shadow

The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, indicating that by Divine Providence, I, Arthur are to be King of England.

And of course, 0bama can say:
The Ladies and gentlemen of the Press, their arms clad in the purest shimmering bullshit, held aloft my hope for change, signifying that by editorial providence, I, Barack, are to be King of the US.

713 Silvergirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:44:22am

re: #700 phoenixgirl

oprah says "light your candles"

?

714 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:44:34am

re: #700 phoenixgirl

oprah says "light your candles"

Captain Amercia says, "Oprah, shut the Hell up."

715 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:44:43am

re: #675 SasquatchOnSteroids

I wish I could have taken the pic but there is a painted 'Free Madoff' sign in Brookltn that I passed on Saturday in the car.

716 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:44:52am

johnny carson said, "whew! ed! move down!"

717 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:45:19am

re: #706 Ben Hur

I said the same thing (shorter) upthread. Arson has been a favourite tactic in Israel for years by the jihadis there.

718 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:45:30am

re: #676 Last Mohican

I've never been happy with liberals' appropriation of "progressive" as a meaningless, nice-sounding euphemism for "liberal." I personally have some values that could be described as liberal-leaning, and I don't think that "liberal" is a dirty word. Even so, I find "progressive" to be dishonest and insulting.

Maybe conservatives should come up with some even more meaningless, nice-sounding euphemism for "conservative." How about "reasonable" or "intelligent." Maybe just "good."

Progressive is a more illuminating word than liberal. It shows a going forward but, we all know that going forward for the sake of going forward is not always a good thing.

719 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:45:34am

david letterman said, "the lotto machine is broken"

720 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:45:34am

re: #668 karmic_inquisitor

The Telegraph in the UK has just ripped Obama as an amateur act at the wrong time in history.

Fuck the Telegraph. When the UK can get its head out of its Sharia ass, it can come over and start criticizing our Presidents. Until then, that is our job.

721 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:45:53am

re: #597 MandyManners

Marvin doesn't understand supply and demand at all.

No - he indeed he doesn't. It really seems like Air America and the Democrat party are attempting to jam Air America into every conservative radio market. Wanted or not. Typical. The Democrats/leftists cannot dazzle people with their ideas, so they have to use force and hide behind "Fairness".

722 seekeroftruth  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:45:54am

re: #705 tfc3rid

That is EXACTLY what he is doing... Full blown Marxist-Commie...

How do we stop him? It looks to be unconstitutional - link via Ace to samizdata.net:

From reading through Title 13, Chapter 1 it appears obvious to me that the POTUS has no role in the census whatsoever beyond, with Senate approval, selecting the Secretary of Commerce and, also with Senate approval, selecting the Director of the Census who " shall perform such duties as may be imposed upon him by law, regulations, or orders of the Secretary." Hhmmm... No president mentioned.

The Secretary of Commerce is the only authority the law recognizes. Since as commenter Laird points out, the Constitution did not place the census function in Article II - the Executive branch but in Article I - the Legislative branch, it is not at all within the President's reach unless the legislature places it there.

I think that interpretation is supported by phrasing such as this taken from Subchapter 1 section 9 "No department, bureau, agency, officer, or employee of the Government, except the Secretary in carrying out the purposes of this title, shall ..."

The Secretary of Commerce does not even report his findings to the President, but rather is instructed to 'publish' them. It looks quite clear to me that any incursion by the White House after those two Senate approved appointments is clearly against the law.

723 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:46:05am

tony s_____a said, "have some humor lady"

724 Last Mohican  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:46:15am

re: #689 Occasional Reader

I'm not too crazy about their appropriation of "liberal", for that matter (which has come to mean in the US almost exactly the opposite of its classical meaning).

Point well taken.

Actually, I usually use the terms "left-wing" and "right-wing" most of the time. I think they're a lot more accurate.

725 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:46:27am

re: #678 Iron Fist

I think you are right abut the context. It is an odd construction, though, to say the least. I could see saying "Stand him up against a wall" and get the same message across, but without the ambiguity. The capitalization implies a specific wall, and doesn't state anything about execution.

The first thing that comes to my mind when I see/hear that is execution.

726 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:46:37am

re: #719 phoenixgirl

david letterman said, "the lotto machine is broken"

Billy Mays said, "Get it clean with OxyClean!"

727 seekeroftruth  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:46:50am

forgot the link: [Link: www.samizdata.net...]

728 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:46:53am

re: #706 Ben Hur

I agree with your broader point of course (and setting deliberate forest fires was even used by the communists in Spain back in the late 80s, at the very least). But nitpicking:

there wasn't ONE NEW TACTIC used against the US and Nato in Iraq and Afganistan that hadn't already been used against Israel in Lebanon, "Territories," etc.

What about improvised EFPs? I may be wrong, but I don't recall them being used before Iraq.

Also, we had ONE big, "new" tactic used on us; hijacked airliners being flown into buildings.

729 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:46:56am

re: #721 FrogMarch

you are correct - indeed he doesn't. It really seems like Air America and the Democrat party are attempting to jam Air America into every conservative radio market. Wanted or not. Typical. The Democrats/leftists cannot dazzle people with their ideas, so they have to use force and hide behind "Fairness".

fixed....

730 Bloodnok  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:47:14am

re: #690 Dustyvet

"I talk to the trees, that's why they put me away"

Peter Sellers

The Goon Show

Upding. I don't know who you are, sir, or where you come from. But you've done me a power of good.

731 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:47:19am

re: #726 Captain Amercia

lol!

732 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:47:23am
733 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:47:28am

re: #697 Ford_Prefect

The Lady Of The Lake held aloft Excalibur, signifying by Divine right that I, Arthur, shall be king. That is why I am your King.

Moistened bint.

734 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:47:32am

re: #714 Captain Amercia

Captain Amercia says, "Oprah, shut the Hell up."

Smoky The Bear says: "Only you Can prevent wild fires"

735 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:47:51am

chauncy gardner said, "i like to watch"

736 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:48:02am

Morning Lizards.

I was slumbering peacefully this morning when a was viciously attacked to two small demons scream SNOW SNOW SNOW!

737 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:48:16am

re: #730 Bloodnok

Upding. I don't know who you are, sir, or where you come from. But you've done me a power of good.

TA!...:)

738 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:48:17am

re: #688 Ojoe

Oprah does not know, so few others know.

She really is a danger to intelligence.

739 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:48:17am

re: #734 Dustyvet

Smoky The Bear says: "Only you Can prevent wild fires"

Actually, I think Sam Elliott says that for Smokey now. Listen closely to the commercials.

740 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:48:18am

re: #664 tfc3rid

Yes, and the coming season will only make me more bitter! Especially if Congress forces the name off my ballpark, my team's payroll may be reduced greatly because of the lost $$.

Cheer up, little buckaroo. The Mets will find another sponsor for the stadium. It will either be Banco Popular or Univision.

741 Last Mohican  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:48:37am

re: #718 MandyManners

Progressive is a more illuminating word than liberal. It shows a going forward but, we all know that going forward for the sake of going forward is not always a good thing.

Indeed. But "progressive" puts a positive spin on change, implying that it entails improvement. If they really need a new euphemism for "liberal," how about "destructive"?

742 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:48:40am

re: #707 NJDhockeyfan

And he said the presidential getaway "is going to be a nice place" to relax — away from the pressures of life at the White House.

After a whopping 2-1/2 weeks on the job.

743 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:48:50am

re: #728 Occasional Reader

True-the aircraft being used as the actual weapon was new. But the highjackings were not. If you think about it, though, the use of a moving vehicle loaded with explosives was the technique used against the marines in Lebanon. So, the vehicle was different, and more lethal, but the strategy of using people as suicide bombers in a moving vehicle was not totally new. The scope was unprescedented of course.

744 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:48:57am

crystal gayle said, "donut's make my brown eyes blue"

745 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:49:21am

re: #733 MandyManners

Moistened bint.

Help! Help! I'm being repressed.

746 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:49:28am

BTW, I'll mention it again. They finally got an Album of the Year right at the Grammys!

Top of the page, is a "listen" link.

Enjoy.

747 Golem Akbar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:49:37am

re: #692 Last Mohican

That'll never work. Islamists torture homosexuals to death and teach men to beat their wives into submission. If liberals don't have a problem with that (and they don't), I don't think they'll mind a few forest fires.


You said it! Women's groups rarely condemn Moslem (mis)treatment of women, children's advocate groups say little about how children are treated, and so forth. But groups like NOW are up in arms about how unfair American society is to women. [makes no sense]

748 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:49:40am
749 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:49:45am

And for your advanced placement course, Bishop, here are some pics from the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto. The images were captured by the Allies and were used at the Nuremberg trial, they were found on the person of Jurgen Stroop the SS officer who oversaw the atrocity. Your attention Bishop Williamson is also directed to the picture of the armed SS men standing over some shot down Jews, including women and children.

And since you are a man of "faith." You can explain how it is that the pictures showing Auschwitz, here, document the arrival of trains full of Jews but no one can find any evidence of these people alive after the the pictures were taken.

I don't blame Pope Benedict granting your sick self mercy and letting you take communion again, Bishop, I resent the hatred in your heart and your vicious small minded willingness to believe the words and ideas of marginal, liars and scoundrels over an overwhelming historical record. It speaks worlds of your character and suggests that, if you ever do bump in to the savior you claim you pray to, he may not be so keen to grant you much on the eternal salvation thing.

750 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:49:55am

re: #681 Wishing
Hi Wishing! "Ouch" indeed, because the opinion is so spot on.
I've semi-kidded out here about someone telling Obama that the campaign is over, he WON. But the fact is he DID win and now has to switch from campaign to GOVERNING and I frankly don't think he's up to it.
I honestly don't think he's prepared to work the long and very HARD hours any President has to work to keep America both safe from foreign attacks nor to get the US economy back on track.

751 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:49:57am

re: #740 Who Watches the Watchmen?

Cheer up, little buckaroo. The Mets will find another sponsor for the stadium. It will either be Banco Popular or Univision.

Ouch... Nah come on, we did acquire JJ Putz to offset K-Rod and Perez... LOL

752 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:49:59am

re: #721 FrogMarch

No - he indeed he doesn't. It really seems like Air America and the Democrat party are attempting to jam Air America into every conservative radio market. Wanted or not. Typical. The Democrats/leftists cannot dazzle people with their ideas, so they have to use force and hide behind "Fairness".

If it resurfaces, I doubt it will be named the "Fairness Doctrine" this time.

753 so.cal.swede  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:50:18am

re: #710 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

in.te.rest.ing

754 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:50:39am

re: #741 Last Mohican

Progressive implies fun, too... just look how much fun Flo in the Progressive Insurance ads has working for them!

755 jwb7605  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:50:54am

re: #732 Iron Fist

Think MS-13. The time to invest in high-quality firearms and knives is Now about last August. If you haven't gotten what you want, you may have a hard time getting it. I was talking to the clerk at Wall-Mart the other day, and he said that the ammo, in several of the most common calibers, was just flying off the shelf about as fast as they can ship it and stock it. You may be able to find something you want, or even a bargin, at a gun show if you aren't too pickey and you get lucky.

I'm thinking refugees. Millions of them. Some harmless, some not.

Sticky problem, and we will not be able to "Kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out"

756 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:51:12am

re: #736 jcm

Morning Lizards.

I was slumbering peacefully this morning when a was viciously attacked to two small demons scream SNOW SNOW SNOW!

If it's any consolation, we'll see 60+ tomorrow here in Chicagoland. :-)

757 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:51:14am

re: #694 x-wing
Ah, thanks - I didn't know that!

758 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:51:27am

re: #706 Ben Hur

1000 updings, if possible. Israel has taken this abuse at the hands of the murdering thugs for way too long, imo. But when it happens in Israel, it is THEIR problem. Western countries are hopefully learning that it is OUR problem.
Thank you for the rant, don't suspend it for too long.

759 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:51:28am

re: #739 Captain Amercia

Actually, I think Sam Elliott says that for Smokey now. Listen closely to the commercials.

Sam Elliot's a ventriloquist? I never knew...thanks...:)

760 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:51:31am
761 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:51:40am

re: #741 Last Mohican

Indeed. But "progressive" puts a positive spin on change, implying that it entails improvement. If they really need a new euphemism for "liberal," how about "destructive"?

I was also thinking how useful it is for the liberals because it throws into starker relief their notion of the differences between them and conservatives.

762 Last Mohican  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:51:43am

re: #752 MandyManners

Just out of curiosity, how much "stimulus money" is Air America going to get?

763 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:51:58am

re: #742 Occasional Reader

After a whopping 2-1/2 weeks on the job.

If you can't take the heat...

I mean come on, he needed a break, he's hitting the campaign trail tonight...

Is tonight's address going to be on broadcast TV? If so, it's shocking the the networks would not give President Bush time for his Farewell Address.

764 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:52:07am

re: #747 Golem Akbar

Makes perfect sense to me.

765 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:52:16am

re: #742 Occasional Reader

Sounds like he doesn't know. Can I tell him?

"A President does not get a vacation. A President only gets a change of location".
-Ronald Reagan

How's that fishbowl feelin' there, Mr. President.

766 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:52:23am

re: #743 WriterMom

True-the aircraft being used as the actual weapon was new. But the highjackings were not. If you think about it, though, the use of a moving vehicle loaded with explosives was the technique used against the marines in Lebanon. So, the vehicle was different, and more lethal, but the strategy of using people as suicide bombers in a moving vehicle was not totally new. The scope was unprescedented of course.

Pure taxonomy, but I'd categorize the 9/11 hijackings as being a new and different thing. They were neither "traditional" hijackings, with the idea of hostages, demands, etc.; nor "kamikaze" attacks against military targets with military planes; nor flying truck bombs.

767 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:52:35am

re: #754 tfc3rid

Progressive implies fun, too... just look how much fun Flo in the Progressive Insurance ads has working for them!

And, the CEO of Progressive is a moonbat.

768 VegasRick  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:52:41am

re: #681 Wishing

Ouch!

Truth hurts sometimes.

769 Golem Akbar  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:52:55am

re: #746 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BTW, I'll mention it again. They finally got an Album of the Year right at the Grammys!

Top of the page, is a "listen" link.

Enjoy.


I went to their concert here in LA, at the Greek Theatre. Mrs. Golem bought me the album. I'm a big fan of Allison Kraus, and of course Led Zeplin. What a treat that the right group actually won (in my ever-so-'umble-opinion).

770 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:53:38am

re: #756 Honorary Yooper

If it's any consolation, we'll see 60+ tomorrow here in Chicagoland. :-)

Typical Seattle Snow, a couple inch in the early morning all gone by afternoon.
The boys don't care. SNOW!

771 jorline  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:53:42am

The ROP is showing the world they're tolerant of others...still.

Poland to 'Punish' Taliban Who Beheaded Polish Geologist

Just remember, if we talk and we're understanding we can build a bridge to peace.
*spit*

772 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:53:47am

re: #767 MandyManners

And, the CEO of Progressive is a moonbat.

A big one...

773 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:53:47am

re: #762 Last Mohican

Just out of curiosity, how much "stimulus money" is Air America going to get?

I don't know. I do know that Cogresswoman Debbie Strebnow is married to it's executive V.P..

774 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:53:50am

re: #769 Golem Akbar

Saw them too. Best live concert I have ever seen.

775 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:53:51am

re: #718 MandyManners

Progressive is a more illuminating word than liberal. It shows a going forward but, we all know that going forward for the sake of going forward is not always a good thing.

I dispute that it's "forward", at all. Most of what they want has been tried out in various forms since at least about, oh, say, 1917.

776 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:53:54am

re: #752 MandyManners

If it resurfaces, I doubt it will be named the "Fairness Doctrine" this time.

I agree. It will be some other Orwellian rhetorical gymnastic twist -- yet another deceptive cliche' the Dems can hide behind.

777 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:54:26am

re: #763 tfc3rid

If you can't take the heat...

I mean come on, he needed a break, he's hitting the campaign trail tonight...

Is tonight's address going to be on broadcast TV? If so, it's shocking the the networks would not give President Bush time for his Farewell Address.

From what I've heard, he's gonna' pre-empt.

778 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:54:37am

re: #750 realwest

Hi Wishing! "Ouch" indeed, because the opinion is so spot on.
I've semi-kidded out here about someone telling Obama that the campaign is over, he WON. But the fact is he DID win and now has to switch from campaign to GOVERNING and I frankly don't think he's up to it.
I honestly don't think he's prepared to work the long and very HARD hours any President has to work to keep America both safe from foreign attacks nor to get the US economy back on track.

He needs his smoke breaks, after all.

779 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:55:14am

re: #778 Wishing

He needs his smoke breaks, after all.

This would be (IMHO) a horrible time for him to quit.

780 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:55:16am

re: #741 Last Mohican

Indeed. But "progressive" puts a positive spin on change, implying that it entails improvement. If they really need a new euphemism for "liberal," how about "destructive"?

Actually, I like using the term "Progressive" for them. It ties them to the Progressives of the early 20th Century, the same people the Italian Fascists idolized. The same people who were into forced sterlization, eugenics, and other assorted stuff. It fits them very well indeed.

781 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:55:26am

re: #775 Occasional Reader

I dispute that it's "forward", at all. Most of what they want has been tried out in various forms since at least about, oh, say, 1917.

You know that. I know that. Lizards and other exceptionally informed people know that. But, does the average voter?

782 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:55:45am

re: #776 FrogMarch

I agree. It will be some other Orwellian rhetorical gymnastic twist -- yet another deceptive cliche' the Dems can hide behind.

I've some links. bbiab

783 Nevergiveup  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:55:57am

17:59 UN to resume aid shipments to Gaza after Hamas returned seized supplies (AP

And the wheels on the bus go round and round , round and round, all the G-D dam day?

784 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:56:07am

re: #760 buzzsawmonkey

I'm betting all the nasty jokes that were told about Bush's vacation time will magically not re-surface during the next four years.

All this guy has been doing for a number of years has been sitting in a chair and voting "present." That and the parties and events and banking the money coming in from one source and the other.

It's a bitch that he has to actually do some work. I feel for him.

NOT!

785 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:56:21am

re: #736 jcm
Good morning jcm! Hey, c'mon now, an inch of snow?!
That's NOTHING compared to what you guys got this winter. In fact I think it's a harbinger of spring - or of Al Gore coming to a town near you!

786 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:56:23am

re: #617 Kosh's Shadow

The "slap chop" or something like that. I hit "mute" for most ads.
Although the new Hulu one is pretty good. Even if it does have Alec Baldwin in it.


maybe, "slap" "chop" "nuts" shouldn't be used together in the commercial/

787 x-wing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:56:24am

re: #748 Iron Fist

But fire is fun to play with. When I was a kid all you needed for an afternoon of fun was a five-gallon can of high-test and a zippo.

Ah, memories.

Good thing eyebrows and arm hair grow back or I'd look like King Kong Bundy.
{only skinnier}

788 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:56:31am

re: #766 Occasional Reader

Well, jihadi suicide missions are not new. And they are certainly not going away. There were definitely new elements to 9/11, and it was the first (and hopefully) last attack of its kind (thank you to Bush). I think we basically agree here.

We can probably also agree that there is no low they will not stoop to, and nothing they will not do to kill. No devastation is too much for them, no amount of blood spilled ever enough.

789 nyc redneck  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:56:50am

i just heard on the radio that indiana has the worst unemployment in the country.
of course. that is why O is going there w/ his dire predictions and fear mongering abt. the economy. and how only the gov't has the answers.
he will promise them free stuff and more free stuff.
i hope the people of indiana can see thru this charlatan.
i hope he gets some hard questions from people who know that
anything the gov't offers as free is not free at all.

790 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:56:51am

Yoop and Mandy; Yes, we know things about the term most don't, but it sounds too cheery and fun a term to cede to them, given that most won't cotton on to its real meaning. I like plain ol' "Left".

791 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:57:03am

re: #786 phoenixgirl

maybe, "slap" "chop" "nuts" shouldn't be used together in the commercial/

Unless it's a commercial for a vasectomy surgeon.

792 Zeus66  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:57:15am

You're gonna get idiots like this guy in any profession. Being a priest doesn't make him immune to stupidity. Some would argue it makes him prone to it.

793 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:57:21am

re: #777 MandyManners

From what I've heard, he's gonna' pre-empt.

From what I'm hearing, we all gonna give him the Golden Rasberry -

prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbth!

794 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:57:29am

re: #791 Captain Amercia

Unless it's a commercial for a vasectomy surgeon.

roflmao

795 WriterMom  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:57:38am

OFF TO STEYN she goes...

796 jorline  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:57:41am

re: #785 realwest

Good morning, RW. I hope all is well for you today.

797 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:57:50am

re: #777 MandyManners

From what I've heard, he's gonna' pre-empt.

And now a mesage from Lord Obama...

798 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:58:01am
799 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:58:02am

re: #791 Captain Amercia

Unless it's a commercial for a vasectomy surgeon.

Or a guy who specializes in cooking Rocky Mountain Oysters.

800 Last Mohican  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:58:03am

re: #746 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BTW, I'll mention it again. They finally got an Album of the Year right at the Grammys!

Top of the page, is a "listen" link.

Enjoy.

Glad to hear it. That (Raising Sand by Robert Plant and Alison Krauss) is a really excellent album. It's amazing how its songwriting, performance, and production so brilliantly integrate these two previously very disparate talents.

That said, a Grammy award is about as meaningful an honor as having a horsefly choose to alight on one's shoulder, IMHO.

801 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:58:18am

This is a developing situation in Beijing: a major fire broke out at the CCTV complex, destroying a soon to be opened hotel complex. The video is pretty amazing as the whole skyscraper is up in flames.

802 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:58:22am

re: #778 Wishing

He needs his smoke breaks, after all.

Maybe he'lll be back on blow...

803 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:58:30am
804 FrogMarch  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:58:46am

re: #776 FrogMarch

I agree. It will be some other Orwellian rhetorical gymnastic twist -- yet another deceptive cliche' the Dems can hide behind.

Just like the "Employee Free Choice Act" - which is nothing but. The democrats hide behind that deceptive language in order to give their donors, the Labor Unions, the ability to intimidate workers into signing up to become union members (forced dues et al) by removing the secret ballot.

Total deception. The democrats are king at this.

805 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:58:55am

re: #788 WriterMom

There were definitely new elements to 9/11

IIRC the jihad/hijack airliner/fly into important infidel landmark idea had been tried before... against France. Algerian hijackers in mid-90s, planned to fly a plane into the Eiffel Tower, I believe, but were taken down on the tarmac in Algeria by commandos.

806 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:59:09am

re: #745 Ford_Prefect

Help! Help! I'm being repressed.

Bloody peasant

807 Athos  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:59:17am

re: #784 Walter L. Newton

I think the real bitch will be when he finds out he will actually be held accountable and responsible for the first time in his life.

808 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:59:19am

re: #797 tfc3rid

And now a mesage from Lord Obama...

ON YOUR KNEES!/

809 SasquatchOnSteroids  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:59:20am

re: #791 Captain Amercia

Unless it's a commercial for a vasectomy surgeon.

Oh,yeah. lots of business he'd do.

811 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:59:33am

re: #792 Zeus66

You're gonna get idiots like this guy in any profession. Being a priest doesn't make him immune to stupidity. Some would argue it makes him prone to it.

So, that makes it alright for the Pope to reinstate his communal rights in the mass?

I don't understand your point?

812 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:59:36am

re: #801 lawhawk

This is a developing situation in Beijing: a major fire broke out at the CCTV complex, destroying a soon to be opened hotel complex. The video is pretty amazing as the whole skyscraper is up in flames.

I saw some stills... Impressive fire...

813 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:59:45am

re: #802 tfc3rid

Maybe he'lll be back on blow...

What's this? Our President on a detox program? What next?

814 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:59:48am

re: #802 tfc3rid

Maybe he'lll be back on blow...

For some odd reason, that made me think of MegaMaid in Spaceballs.

"It's MegaPresident, sir! He's gone from sucks to blows!"
/

815 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:00:02am

re: #791 Captain Amercia

Unless it's a commercial for a vasectomy surgeon.

Gaaaaah

That would be a discount vasectomy surgeon, of course.


"Bring this coupon in to "Slap Chop Nuts", and enjoy a free coffee while you wait!"

816 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:00:03am

Venezuela synagogue suspects held

Eleven people - including seven police officers - have been arrested over the ransacking of a synagogue in the Venezuelan capital, Caracas

This one smells sanctioned to me.

817 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:00:21am

"BALLS!" said barack, "if i had them i'd be michelle!"

818 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:00:40am

re: #790 Occasional Reader

Yoop and Mandy; Yes, we know things about the term most don't, but it sounds too cheery and fun a term to cede to them, given that most won't cotton on to its real meaning. I like plain ol' "Left".

That's why I'm sticking to the "Left".

819 x-wing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:00:40am

re: #791 Captain Amercia

Unless it's a commercial for a vasectomy surgeon.

That hurt just reading.

820 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:00:46am

re: #767 MandyManners
"the CEO of Progressive is a moonbat." Wow, I didn't know that - what irony - or maybe honesty if he named the company!
Wonder how much dough he makes a year?

821 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:00:50am

re: #809 SasquatchOnSteroids

Oh,yeah. lots of business he'd do.

Lots of laughs from the womenfolk, though.

822 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:01:04am

re: #813 unreconstructed rebel

What's this? Our President on a detox program? What next?

Anything to get on Access Hollywood...

823 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:01:14am

re: #795 WriterMom

OFF TO STEYN she goes...

HAVE FUN!

824 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:01:19am

please mr. president, don't whip out your stimulus package

825 ciaospirit  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:01:29am

re: #773 MandyManners

I don't know. I do know that Cogresswoman Debbie Strebnow is married to it's executive V.P..


Her husband is such an upstanding guy, too.

TROY, MI - The husband of U.S. Sen. Debbie Stabenow told police he used the Internet to make a date with a prostitute and paid her $150 for sex at a hotel, according to a police report.

Thomas Athans, 46, co-founder of the liberal TalkUSA Radio network, was stopped by police who were investigating Internet-based prostitution at the hotel, according to a police report obtained Wednesday by The Associated Press under the state Freedom of Information Act.

826 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:01:31am

re: #801 lawhawk

This is a developing situation in Beijing: a major fire broke out at the CCTV complex, destroying a soon to be opened hotel complex. The video is pretty amazing as the whole skyscraper is up in flames.

Wow. Reminds me of The Towering Inferno. I hope everyone got out safely.

827 jcm  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:01:35am

re: #785 realwest

Good morning jcm! Hey, c'mon now, an inch of snow?!
That's NOTHING compared to what you guys got this winter. In fact I think it's a harbinger of spring - or of Al Gore coming to a town near you!

In Seattle a inch is about enough to cause a federal disaster declaration. It was off the roads pretty quick but traffic was still a mess.

828 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:01:49am

re: #824 phoenixgirl

please mr. president, don't whip out your stimulus package

"Excuse me while I whip this out!"

829 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:02:05am

re: #798 buzzsawmonkey

And the decree went forth, that when the trumpets sound thou shalt bow down to the image of Obamanezzar, and that if any do not they shall be cast into a fiery Fairness. But Shad-Rush, Marksteyn, and A-blog-or-two said, "No, we shall not bow down."

Will he smite them with his mighty pen?

830 SasquatchOnSteroids  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:02:07am

re: #817 phoenixgirl

"BALLS!" said barack, "if i had them i'd be michelle!"

Makes me wonder. If Jesse is invited to stay in the WH, will they hide all the knives?

831 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:02:25am

re: #828 Captain Amercia

"Excuse me while I whip this out!"

OMG!

832 bulwrk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:03:02am

I am hoping that the mind control microchip implanted in Obama's brain got knock lose when he bumped his head getting into Marine One.

833 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:03:06am

re: #809 SasquatchOnSteroids

Oh,yeah. lots of business he'd do.

Doctor? I need a vasectomy. A long, slow vasectomy.

834 Last Mohican  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:03:27am

re: #801 lawhawk

This is a developing situation in Beijing: a major fire broke out at the CCTV complex, destroying a soon to be opened hotel complex. The video is pretty amazing as the whole skyscraper is up in flames.

That's awful. How could the entire 51-story building be on fire at the same time? And what's with all the fireworks in front? It's a very surreal scene. I hope all the people got out safely.

835 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:03:36am

re: #820 realwest

"the CEO of Progressive is a moonbat." Wow, I didn't know that - what irony - or maybe honesty if he named the company!
Wonder how much dough he makes a year?

Charles mentioned it one day a while ago so I Googled. I don't recall if I found out his salary, though.

836 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:03:36am

re: #771 jorline
Hi jorline - that was a sad, terrible story. And it comes on the heels of Obama apparently reconsidering sending an additional 30,000 combat Army and Marine troops to Afghanistan.

837 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:03:36am

re: #801 lawhawk

This is a developing situation in Beijing: a major fire broke out at the CCTV complex, destroying a soon to be opened hotel complex. The video is pretty amazing as the whole skyscraper is up in flames.

And both Steve McQueen and Paul Newman are no longer around to help out. They're in trouble.

838 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:03:43am

i have seen a stimulus package, and that mr. president is no stimulus package!

839 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:03:48am

re: #831 phoenixgirl

OMG!

Sorry, PG. Quote from Blazing Saddles.

840 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:04:16am

re: #839 Captain Amercia

Sorry, PG. Quote from Blazing Saddles.

(i know)

841 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:04:37am

re: #808 phoenixgirl

ON YOUR KNEES!/

A man dies and goes to hell. Satan greets him, shows him three doors, and says, "You must spend the rest of eternity in one of the rooms behind these doors. Look in each one and decide which one you want."

The man opens the first door, and sees a bunch of people standing on their heads on a wooden floor, looking very uncomfortable. He opens the second door, and sees a bunch of people standing on their heads on a concrete floor, looking even more uncomfortable. Finally, he opens the third door, and sees a bunch of people standing around chatting and drinking coffee, up to their knees in shit.

"Hmmm," he says, "that looks bad, but it's better than the other two. I'll take the third door." Satan smiles and shows him in.

Ten minutes later Satan walks back into the room and says, "Alright, coffee break's over, everyone back on your heads!"

842 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:04:51am

re: #826 Honorary Yooper

Hotel made of matches and firecrackers?

843 Captain Amercia  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:04:55am

re: #840 phoenixgirl

(i know)

And there's no way they would be able to make that film today.

844 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:05:23am

re: #749 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

And for your advanced placement course, Bishop, here are some pics from the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto. The images were captured by the Allies and were used at the Nuremberg trial, they were found on the person of Jurgen Stroop the SS officer who oversaw the atrocity. Your attention Bishop Williamson is also directed to the picture of the armed SS men standing over some shot down Jews, including women and children.

And since you are a man of "faith." You can explain how it is that the pictures showing Auschwitz, here, document the arrival of trains full of Jews but no one can find any evidence of these people alive after the the pictures were taken.

I don't blame Pope Benedict granting your sick self mercy and letting you take communion again, Bishop, I resent the hatred in your heart and your vicious small minded willingness to believe the words and ideas of marginal, liars and scoundrels over an overwhelming historical record. It speaks worlds of your character and suggests that, if you ever do bump in to the savior you claim you pray to, he may not be so keen to grant you much on the eternal salvation thing.

I disagree in one respect.
I don't think Williamson the Denier believes a single word of his holocaust denial. With full-blown hatred the truth becomes irrelevant, and honest belief is unnecessary.
That is the essence of Holocaust denial - the fuckers are nothing but a bunch of hateful liars.

845 phoenixgirl  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:05:27am

fox news is talking about the stimulus package being pushed through.....when will it end?

846 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:05:45am

re: #837 Occasional Reader

And both Steve McQueen and Paul Newman are no longer around to help out. They're in trouble.

...and O.J.'s in prison.

847 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:05:59am

re: #837 Occasional Reader

And both Steve McQueen and Paul Newman are no longer around to help out. They're in trouble.

Hopefully OJ is going to find that kitten.

848 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:06:03am

re: #838 phoenixgirl

i have seen a stimulus package, and that mr. president is no stimulus package!

ROFLMAO!

849 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:06:20am

re: #790 Occasional Reader
I much prefer "Far Left" but that's just me!

850 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:06:29am
851 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:06:32am

Please spell it properly. STIMU-LESS!

852 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:07:25am

re: #850 Iron Fist

C'mon fist. How much are you saving? Sheesh!

853 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:07:30am

re: #796 jorline
Morning jorine - things could be better, but thanks for asking. How are you doing today?

854 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:07:44am
855 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:08:04am

Those pics show me the shocking reality that Chinese construction metods are not likely very safe at all...

856 jwb7605  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:08:12am

re: #803 Iron Fist

I don't see as where I said "Kill 'Em All, and let God Sort 'Em Out." My thought is that with a very violent, relatively well organized criminal gang, it would be prudent to arm yourself, if you haven't already done so. The reletive scarcity of firearms and ammunition is a nationwide problem in supply with all of the market effects that that entails.

As for the rest, well, something has to be done to curtail the exodus from Mexico to the United States, or our infrastructure is in danger of collapsing under the burden of millions of illegals.

I never quoted you as saying that.
I may or may not be armed to the teeth, and may or may not be prepared.

What I did say is that the collapse of Mexico will create a huge refugee problem. I also compared it to the Palestinian situation. Tens of thousands of Palestinians flooding into Israel would include violent and nonviolent people.
Mexican refugees, like the current "undocumented workers", would also probably insist on retaining their own culture.

857 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:09:01am

re: #826 Honorary Yooper

Yeah; they claim that the building wasn't yet open and that they were still working on the finishing touches for the hotel there (shades of Towering Inferno as well). Hopefully any workers in the building got out safely. I don't expect firefighters to have it under control anytime soon given the way it's fully engulfed.

858 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:09:28am

re: #837 Occasional Reader

And both Steve McQueen and Paul Newman are no longer around to help out. They're in trouble.

That's not funny. A building that large, that tall, totally engulfed in flames, I would be surprised that there hasn't been some deaths.

859 Wishing  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:09:48am

re: #845 phoenixgirl

fox news is talking about the stimulus package being pushed through.....when will it end?

Clue: Fox News is part of MFM.
We have the blogosphere and talk radio, which is soon to see its demise. After that, internet *tax* will begin to shut up those miscreants who type on their PC's all day.

860 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:10:06am

re: #788 WriterMom

It might be that "new variation" which causes the biggest problems...so with the thinking prior to 9/11, everyone had a protocol to follow with respect to airplane hijackings...(and following that protocol, expecting the passengers would be used for ransom, etc.) is what increased the level of "effectiveness" for the terrorists...(as i'm sure everyone here's aware...). With the alleged jihadis using arson in Australia, I've read that whoever set the fires, they didn't just initiate the fires (start the fires), but after the fire department put out the fires, the arsonists re-lit the fires...(thus adding to the confusion, etc.)...the fires were being re-ignited...(whoever did this, i don't care really who they are or what "reasons" for it -- i think such arsonists make an excellent case for a reinstatement of capital punishment.)

861 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:12:14am

re: #858 Walter L. Newton

Right. Sorry.

862 AuntAcid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:12:18am

re: #842 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hotel made of matches and firecrackers?

...and the Zen of it is that the hotel burned down as it burned up.

863 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:12:20am

re: #854 buzzsawmonkey

He will hold town meetings, and shall say unto the populace, "Behold, these do not bow down before the American idol that I have set up. Indeed, they are so unkind as to declare that the American idol that I have set up has feet of clay. Therefore, they shall be cast into a fiery Fairness, from which, if they emerge, they shall have all contrary opinion burnt away, and it shall be that they will no longer fail to give due homage unto that which I have set up."

That about sums it up.

864 Ben Hur  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:12:21am

re: #728 Occasional Reader

What is an "EFP?"

865 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:13:54am

re: #864 Ben Hur

explosively formed penetrator (there's a wiki article about it).

866 Dustyvet  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:14:48am

Sam has been in the computer business for 25 years and is finally sick of the stress. He quits his job and buys 50 acres of land in Vermont as far from humanity as possible. Sam sees the postman once a week and gets groceries once a month. Otherwise it's total peace and quiet. After six months or so of almost total isolation, he's finishing dinner when someone knocks on his door. He opens it and there is a big, bearded Vermonter standing there.

"Name's Enoch... Your neighbor from four miles over the ridge... Having a party Saturday... Thought you'd like to come."

"Great," says Sam, "after six months of this I'm ready to meet some local folks. Thank you."

As Enoch is leaving he stops, "Gotta warn you there's gonna be some drinkin'."

"Not a problem... After 25 years in the computer business, I can drink with the best of 'em."

Again, as he starts to leave Enoch stops. "More 'n' likely gonna be some fightin' too."

"Damn", Sam thinks... "Tough crowd." "Well, I get along with people. I'll be there. Thanks again."

Once again Enoch turns from the door. "I've seen some wild sex at these parties, too."

"Now that's not a problem" says Sam, "Remember I've been alone for six months! I'll definitely be there... By the way, what should I wear?"

Enoch stops in the door again and says, "Whatever you want, just gonna be the two of us."

867 Occasional Reader  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:15:42am

re: #858 Walter L. Newton

That's not funny. A building that large, that tall, totally engulfed in flames, I would be surprised that there hasn't been some deaths.

The building is unoccupied, it was not yet opened.

868 Athos  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:15:48am

Given that there are so many clear cases of the complete and utter failure of 'progressive' financial planning - at multiple levels - city (Detroit, Chicago, NYC, LA), state (MI, CA, NJ, NY) and other countries (Venezuela, DPRK, USSR / Russia, UK, Canada, etc) how can these ideas still resonate with people?

869 Salem  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:15:59am
but the Pope isn’t budging. Williamson is still being reinstated.

Can't say I'm surprised. At all.

870 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:16:58am

Germany warns Iran over sanctions - was pure bullshit.

Keep Nabucco in the back of your mind. And remember our ol' pal Gerhard Schröder? It appears he has some biddness to conduct in Tehran this month when it's time to cut dirty stinky dead fish.

The Munich Security Conference was/is a big stinky dead red-herring.

871 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:18:13am

re: #850 Iron Fist Huh, and here I thought, all along, that you were a Patriot!
:)
Seriously, I hope you save a lot of dough. And they do have great commercials!

872 Ben Hur  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:18:42am

re: #707 NJDhockeyfan

Obama gives Camp David retreat rave reviews, calls it fun place to relax away from Washington


I bet he will spend more time there than at the WH.

I don't know, maybe it's the mood I'm in today, BUT

CALL ME EFFEN CRAZY, but is it me?!?!?

Am I the ONLY one going nuts?

One the one hand we are told that this is the worst economic crisis in the history of the world and that if we don't pass this spening bill the end of the world is upon us.

YET, He goes to read to children?@?@?

He goes to Camp David?!?!?!?!?

Again, I post the question:

Which of the following is true?:

George W Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to take away our civil rights by PLAYING ON OUR FEARS...

or

Obama and the Dems are using a MSM generated panic as an excuse to push through the largest debt inducing partisan spending bill in history BY PLAYING ON OUR FEARS.

873 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:18:58am
874 Ben Hur  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:20:15am

re: #865 J.S.

explosively formed penetrator (there's a wiki article about it).

That's what she said.

WHAT?!?

875 tfc3rid  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:21:27am

Anyone following The One's campaign stop in IN?

876 realwest  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:21:54am

Well, gotta hop y'all - hope you have a GREAT DAY and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!

877 nonic  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:24:54am

Williamson, who is NOT a bishop of the RC Church and never was, is also not a European. He is English by birth and has been living for many years in Argentina, where he taught at a seminary outside Buenos Aires, until he was fired from that job by his society SSPX a few days ago and EXPELLED from the society as well.

878 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:26:18am

As I suspected, Williamson was not head of typical Roman Catholic seminary. He was head of a schismatic seminary governed by SPSS. And now SPSS has removed him from his role at the seminary.

[Link: www.cleveland.com...]

SPSS and the Catholic church are trying to mend their relationship and this clown has gone from sideshow to center ring. Neither side wants him know and they are obviously marginalizing him.

"The statements from Monsignor Williamson do not in any way reflect the position of our congregation," said Father Christian Bouchacourt, the society's South American superior. "A Catholic bishop cannot speak with ecclesiastical authority except on matters concerning faith and morality. Our brotherhood does not claim any authority over other questions."

Note that the head of SPSS doesn't refer to Williamson as Bishop, they use the more general title Monsignor. Still a title usually considered more respectful than Father, but not Bishop.

879 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:26:45am

I've said this before, but it bears repeating:

It is easy enough to criticize the Pope for his handling of this affair, and indeed he left himself wide open to it. But amidst the righteous anger at Williamson, we see a great number of people using this affair as a peg on which to hang their Catholic-bashing hats.

Williamson remains under order to recant, and if he doesn't, he will be ostracized within the Church. Not re-excommunicated, because the original excommunication had nothing to do with his political views. It was because of his violation of canon law for accepting an illegal consecration.

Of all the great Christian denominations, the Catholic Church has done the most ex officio to apologize and atone for past sins of anti-Semitism. Check out the statements of certain Russian Orthodox or Serbian Orthodox officials, and see if you can discover anything equivalent to Nostra Aetate in their Church's teaching.

What really irks me, however, is the ease with which Merkel and everybody calling for anything from re-excommunication for Williamson up to and including the Pope's resignation can make such statements. Not that they're wrong, per se: It is perfectly legitimate for such statements to be aired. No, what bothers me is that there's no similar outrage from Merkel or the international community when people marching on their streets call not for the denial of the Holocaust - after all, denying the truth may be an outrage, but it has no effect on the truth - but for a new one. I mean, of course, the recent demonstrations all over Europe and the US calling for the destruction of Israel. I mean the videos we've seen here from Muslim clerics (some considered "moderates" in the West) gloating over the Holocaust and hoping for the next one to be at the hands of Muslims.

Why aren't they condemned in terms as loud as we hear in the Williamson case?

Answer: The Pope and the Church will not behead you for calling them names.

Europe is more worried about a rogue priest and his repugnant views than it is by the hordes of active, potentially and actually violent anti-Semites and Muslim fanatics in its midst.

So the uproar over this affair is in fact a kind of stand-in for what they are afraid to say about the seething, spluttering, knife-wielding, bomb-making, Jew-hating fanatics inhabiting a large minority in the heart of their societies, whether they be Muslims or their Western supporters.

It's time to wake up and call the leaders who are rightly criticizing Williamson and the Pope to account for their complicit silence on this other small matter. Anything else is cowardly capitulation.

880 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:29:52am

re: #735 phoenixgirl

chauncy gardner said, "i like to watch"

I used quote one time when referring to one of my favorite file characters. My audience apparently were not into film that much. They looked at me strange and I realized they thought my favorite character was some sort of perverted voyeur.

881 nonic  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:30:47am

jester
Cato

Save your breath. They don't want to hear.

882 nonic  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:34:31am

re: #878 jester6

There are only two ranks -- priest and bishop. Even the Pope is only a bishop, the Bishop of Rome. "Archbishop" merely means bishop of an archdiocese, which is a LARGE or otherwise important diocese. "Monsigneur" is an honor title given to a priest, like after a long career of service or paying off the mortgage or something otherwise noteworthy.

883 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:43:18am

re: #879 Cato the Elder

Well said Cato.

On a slightly different tact, those using the anti-Semite brush so liberally to paint the Pope and other institutions might do well to consider how the overuse of the charge of racism has worked over the last 30 years US. A charge that once had the power to end a debate or silence a critic more often then not draws nothing more than a sigh and rolled eyes today.

Williamson is an extremist being marginalized by himself, his schismatic order and Rome. Continuing to refer to him as a Catholic Bishop and hanging him around the neck of the Pope is offensive to many Catholics and counterproductive. I am no longer a practicing Catholic but even I am offended by the broad characterizations many critics here and in the media are lodging against the church and it's leadership.

Israel needs friends more than ever today. I think most Catholics, at least those not generic bigots you find in any organization, consider themselves to be pro-Israel. Let's not let the media create a scandal when there really is none.

884 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:44:27am

re: #881 nonic

jester
Cato

Save your breath. They don't want to hear.

Maybe. I'm surprised at the failure to link the two outrages, though - Williamson's historical lies about the Holocaust and the open calls for repeating it now heard bruited about by the Islamo-Fascists. And of the two, which is the more dangerous? Williamson has a pulpit, of sorts, though not an official one. The fanatics have bombs and are eager to use them.

I'll keep beating this drum until someone pays attention.

As an aside, since Williamson denies both the Holocaust and Al Qaeda's responsibility for 9/11, it would be interesting to know how he feels about Islamic terrorism. Maybe the Swedes can get him for another interview?

885 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:47:36am

re: #877 nonic

...until he was fired from that job by his society SSPX a few days ago and EXPELLED from the society as well.

W. was expelled as well as fired? I hadn't heard that. Can you give me a link for reference?

886 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:50:21am

In my opinion, Pope Benedict should have revoked his decision to reinstate this guy immediately after learning of his ugly views. It wouldn't have been an issue if this had happened.

And I have to say, I don't believe the excuse that he didn't know. The order to which Williamson belongs has never made any secret of its extremist beliefs or its antisemitism.

887 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:55:29am

I think the genuine issue here is that the Pope took the SSPX people back into the Church after they indicated that they were willing to be reconciled, and then Williamson went on a psycho tear, embarassing the Vatican in front of the world, and forcing the Pope to take upset calls from Chancellor Merkel.

If I were Benedict, I would not be in a happy mood.

re: #140 Gretchen

If they guy holds no official capacity in the church, then what he believes about the Holocaust is not relevant. Holocaust belief isn't a tenant of the church. Far more babies have been killed via abortion if you view abortion as murder (as the church does) and the church does not excommunicate even the most strident pro-abortion politicians, although they have, in some cases been denied communion.

I think he's an idiot, however, it is not really the aim of the church to excommunicate idiots, and the Pope is right not to allow this nut's views weigh on his decision, as it is a view on an historical event not a church doctrine. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden have both misrepresented the church's view on abortion on television, and yet have not been excommunicated.

If he were allowed to be a practicing bishop, we could have a different discussion.

888 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:01:36am

re: #870 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

Nebucco?! (now that wouldn't be a veiled reference to Nebuchadnezzar II, would it?)

889 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:03:46am

re: #886 Charles

In my opinion, Pope Benedict should have revoked his decision to reinstate this guy immediately after learning of his ugly views. It wouldn't have been an issue if this had happened.

And I have to say, I don't believe the excuse that he didn't know. The order to which Williamson belongs has never made any secret of its extremist beliefs or its antisemitism.

I'm sorry, but that's self-contradictory. On the one hand you say the "reinstatement" should have been revoked as soon as Benedict learned of his views. On the other, you say he must have known them before the order was given. In which case the Pope would be guilty of "reinstating" Williamson while tacitly accepting his Holocaust denial. I find that hard to believe.

And once again, for the record: Williamson was not "reinstated" as bishop. His excommunication from the sacraments of the Church was lifted. There is a difference.

See my #879 for why I find the outrage on the part of Merkel and others to be somewhat hypocritical.

890 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:10:29am

re: #889 Cato the Elder

I'm sorry, but that's self-contradictory. On the one hand you say the "reinstatement" should have been revoked as soon as Benedict learned of his views. On the other, you say he must have known them before the order was given.

I was unclear - I meant the reinstatement should have been canceled as soon as Williamson's statements became news.

In which case the Pope would be guilty of "reinstating" Williamson while tacitly accepting his Holocaust denial. I find that hard to believe.

I find it harder to believe that no one involved in the decision to bring the Order of St. Pius back into the Church was aware of their extremist beliefs. As I said, their views have been well known for a long time:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

891 nonic  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:10:45am

re: #883 jester6

Actually, this whole circus is a win-win-win for the media and others with agendas.

They get to smear the Church and the Pope, which discredits both in regard to ANY issue.

Disagree with the Church on abortion or gays? Well, what do you expect from an institution that denies the Holocaust?

They get the Jews all upset and distracted from the REAL threat against them and Israel.

They make islamist Jew-hatred look practically mainstream when "Christians are doing the same thing." (That is, anyway, from the point of view of those who admit that Catholics ARE Christians.)

They make ALL religion and religious people look both stupid and evil.

892 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:11:21am

re: #886 Charles

In my opinion, Pope Benedict should have revoked his decision to reinstate this guy immediately after learning of his ugly views. It wouldn't have been an issue if this had happened.

And I have to say, I don't believe the excuse that he didn't know. The order to which Williamson belongs has never made any secret of its extremist beliefs or its antisemitism.

The bar to being a lay Catholic is not very high. Williamson was never a bishop. He is still a priest because you are always a priest after you have taken the sacrament. Rome has barred him from acting as a priest though.

In short, he is no more a spokesperson for the Catholic church than me or a priest who left the clergy and got married but remained a Catholic.

893 kansas  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:12:07am

“I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against — is hugely against — 6 million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler,”

Pretty sure some were shot, some were starved, some beaten to death, some experimented on by Mengale. That makes it OK?

894 Wild Knight  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:12:17am

This farce has lasted long enough. The justified indignation over Williamson's egregious views is being used to taint the Pope although the Pope's actions were intended to bring the SSPX under control and to prevent the future ordinations of people like Williamson.

To understand the issue, it is necessary first to understand what a revocation of excommunication means. Well-intentioned lizards may found out here: What The Revocation Means. Essentially, it means that the SSPX still do not have the approval of the Pope or any other authority in the Church. The SSPX is still NOT in communion with the Pope!

Secondly, this move by the Pope has enabled the Vatican to start exerting authority over the SSPX which has been forced to make this concession because of the revocation. The authority has already started being exerted by the Vatican which has forced the SSPX to sack Williamson from his post as rector of an Argentine Seminary:

Links of the removal of Williamson

Apart from this, the SSPX has conceded its power to ordain ministers without the authority of the Pope.

The very move which everyone is criticising the Pope for making is instrumental in preventing the SSPX from appointing and ordaining anyone like Williamson - whose views were known long before the revocation but which were only exploited by the MSM after the recovation was publicised. If the Pope were to reinstate his excommunication, all these concessions of the SSPX to the Vatican would be lost and the SSPX would be free to maintain its ideas and appoint such uncongenial personnel.

895 bj  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:13:19am
In the Saturday article, Spiegel quotes Williamson saying he will not recant and that he would need more evidence to believe the Holocaust really happened. “If I find this proof, then I will correct myself,” he said. “But that will require some time.”

Pardon me but this is just plain bullsh!t. The man and others like him have had a lifetime to research facts that are out there by the millions. The Pope is not G-d, he doesn't grant another life. This "bishop" needs to work in a hospice with survivors of the Holocaust and their family members who were also damaged for a lifetime. Then he might get it through his thick head what took place.

896 nonic  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:19:59am

re: #884 Cato the Elder

Don't forget Williamson has been living in Argentina -- and for how long? Argentina? You know, where all the old Nazi officers went after the war? I'll bet Williamson's rolodex positively reeks.

I think one of the main realities here that people refuse to understand --- I mean ASIDE from the fact that almost nobody gets even one-tenth of the facts straight -- is that the Pope is not running for election and the Vatican is not a vast PR firm. By which I mean, the Pope answers to GOD, not public opinion. The Pope and the Vatican serve 2 billion Catholics worldwide, not just spoiled Americans and Europeans.

People seem to think that the issue is whether or not an "undesirable" with the "wrong opinions" is allowed in the "club." It doesn't work that way. Not in the Catholic Churh.

897 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:20:16am

re: #890 Charles

I find it harder to believe that no one involved in the decision to bring the Order of St. Pius back into the Church was aware of their extremist beliefs. As I said, their views have been well known for a long time:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yes, I agree with that. And for all my sympathy for the Catholic Church, I do not endorse Benedict's drift to the "right" (if that term applies here). Nor do many of my Catholic friends, who are appalled at the recognition of rejectionist traditionalists. I do not understand where Benedict is going with this.

But he's not infallible, despite what people believe. Only when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith does that apply, and it's only happened once in history. Aside from that, Bennie is as liable to err as any Catholic Joe Sixpack.

898 jester6  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:22:38am

re: #890 Charles

I find it harder to believe that no one involved in the decision to bring the Order of St. Pius back into the Church was aware of their extremist beliefs. As I said, their views have been well known for a long time.

Agreed, IIRC this is the order with which Mel Gibson and his dad are affiliated. But don't confuse rescinding excommunication of individuals with accepting the actions of SSPX. The Pope is trying to get this outfit back into the church and under control of Rome.

Look at the self reported stats of this group at SSPX.org. This group is growing. It's better to get them into the church and under control of Rome than to let them continue on and give us more Gibsons and Williamsons.

899 nonic  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:23:18am

Cato

Oh, sorry. I meant to say that I HAD a link over the weekend, had sent it to somebody. But I dumped all my old e-mails this morning, so it's gone. It was a very brief report from a European source.

900 nonic  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:26:57am

re: #886 Charles

Charles, you might find this article interesting.

Double Disaster at the Vatican: Of Governance and Communication

[Link: chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it...]

901 nonic  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:32:15am

re: #898 jester6

Also, Charles............

The REASON for getting a group like this back into the Church is not for the benefit of the errant clergy. It's to protect the following that they are gaining. I've seen both numbers, 50,000 and 500,000, I think. So, it's something between those, I guess, of would-be Catholics who are being led astray by this schismatic group.

The Pope is a shepherd. His job is to protect his flock. Neutralizing errant clergy who are moving people in the wrong direction is part of that.

902 rasta16ry  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:34:22am

Reading through this thread, it's disturbing how far out of context some people have taken the arguments. This seems to me to be a discussion not on whether Williamson's views are atrocious (they are, and his conduct has been), but on whether he and his views have been legitimized by the Catholic Church and the Pope (not the case). He is allowed to receive Communion, and that's it.

He's not a bishop, or a functioning priest, or anything of the sort really. All he has is a pulpit provided by the same media that calls the people who beheaded the Polish engineer "militants", instead of what they really are: agents of terror.

Anyone arguing that this makes the Pope sympathetic to Antisemitism is just looking for an excuse to legitimize Catholic-bashing. It's funny how certain people, and the media, have jumped all over this one. Williamson's a kook with malignant thoughts, and the Pope didn't hang him in the town square, so suddenly the entire Church is subject to vilification? No way Jose.

903 nonic  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:35:57am

re: #894 Wild Knight

You don't sound so "wild." You sound downright sensible. Good luck trying to get anyone to hear you. :-)

904 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 10:52:11am

re: #902 rasta16ry

He's not a bishop, or a functioning priest, or anything of the sort really. All he has is a pulpit provided by the same media that calls the people who beheaded the Polish engineer "militants", instead of what they really are: agents of terror.

Mega-upding!

You said in two sentences what it took my long-winded self ten long-winded paragraphs to express.

The media focus on one idiot who's being stripped of all power as we speak, and hand him back that power by repeating everything he says while blaming it on the Pope. At the same time they downplay, minimize and ignore the "militants" who are actually out there killing people and plotting to kill incalculably more. And Merkel etc. play right into the game.

But of course we can't show beheading videos, even with the beheading edited out, because that might upset some viewers and insult certain others.

905 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 11:04:57am

re: #901 nonic

Also, Charles............

The REASON for getting a group like this back into the Church is not for the benefit of the errant clergy. It's to protect the following that they are gaining. I've seen both numbers, 50,000 and 500,000, I think. So, it's something between those, I guess, of would-be Catholics who are being led astray by this schismatic group.

The Pope is a shepherd. His job is to protect his flock. Neutralizing errant clergy who are moving people in the wrong direction is part of that.

I understand this argument, but I find it very unconvincing -- in fact, naive. I think that rather than "neutralizing" the SSPX weirdos, this has the effect of legitimizing and encouraging them. And there's no doubt at all that it also had the effect of creating a LOT of bad publicity for Pope Benedict and the Catholic Church.

A very ill-advised, ill-considered decision.

906 Lynn B.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 11:12:33am

re: #879 Cato the Elder

Once again, since you (and several others) have ignored this every other time I've posted it:

German Chancellor Angela Merkel's unconditional support of Israel's retaliatory strikes in Gaza has prompted a rising number of attacks from her coalition partner, the Social Democratic Party (SPD), as well as the Free

SPD Parliamentarian Rolf Mutzenich accused Merkel of "siding with the permanent Israeli bombing" of Gaza.

*/*/*

Germans Protest Against Merkel’s Support for Israel

So far, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has been the only European head of state to pin the responsibility for violence in Gaza entirely on Hamas. In a meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on January 5, Merkel reiterated Germany’s support for Israel in this conflict and stressed that no ceasefire should be declared until Israeli security could be guaranteed.

Despite these words of support coming from Merkel, it seems the majority of Germans disagree with her pro-Israel stance.

In response to the ongoing military operation in Gaza, a wave of anti-Israel demonstrations has surged across Germany. Roughly 10,000 demonstrators marched in Frankfurt on January 3 carrying banners equating the current Israeli offensive with a second Holocaust. Sacha Stawski, the editor in chief of Honestly Concerned, a media watchdog outlet in Frankfurt monitoring anti-Semitism and anti-Israelism, told the Jerusalem Post that he heard chants coming from this crowd of “Gas the Jews!” and “Merkel out!”

Similar protests were held in Berlin and Düsseldorf.

(no endorsement of the source intended)

The protests you're talking about were against Merkel as much as against Israel. Merkel has pretty much stood alone among European leaders in her support of Israel, as most Israelis are very well aware. You're trying to find hypocrisy when there isn't any.

907 theheat  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 11:21:45am
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has spoken to Pope Benedict about Holocaust-denying Bishop Richard Williamson, but the Pope isn’t budging.

The Pope is holding out that unclenched fist for "big tent" religion. Who says there is no progress!

(I find him quite useless, but I like my Catholic peeps as individuals.)

908 hazzyday  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 12:13:34pm

I think this level of Holocaust denial is actually a form of mental illness. There probably isn't a way to intellectually prove anything to his faith gone awry. The pope should move him to a low rung in the church or out of the church hierarchy.

It goes to show you how smart Eisenhower was.

909 hazzyday  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 12:20:38pm

re: #902 rasta16ry

There probably is a name for this type of activity in German. Find one bad malcontent in a group and then color the whole group with the malcontents colors. Popes have different levels of forgiveness and sometimes it gets the church in trouble.

Anytime an organization hits a population of 10,000 or more, it will have members with criminal intent in it. In the case of the MSM the criminal intent ratio is probably above the norm.

910 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 12:27:56pm

re: #906 Lynn B.

Once again, since you (and several others) have ignored this every other time I've posted it:

[snip]

The protests you're talking about were against Merkel as much as against Israel. Merkel has pretty much stood alone among European leaders in her support of Israel, as most Israelis are very well aware. You're trying to find hypocrisy when there isn't any.

I can't ignore what I haven't seen. Goodness, do you think people read every single post in the threads they follow? So this is the first time I've seen your information.

You, on the other hand, seem to have read my posts, so how can you be so unclear on what I'm saying? Merkel's support for Israel is not in question. Her and others' total and permanent lack of public outrage about the daily, hourly Jew-hating poison spewed around the Muslims world by clerics and laypeople alike, both abroad and at home is what I'm excoriating. It is time that the work of MEMRI and others exposing the Holocaust-affirming and new-Holocaust-promoting fanatics gets front-page coverage as well. It should be on every news site and commented on by every politician.

Trouble is, that would mean tackling an enemy who's right on their doorstep, if not already in the house, and that takes courage. Not the kind that earns you applause from those who hate the Catholic Church, but the kind that earns you a 24-hour guard.

I'm not holding my breath.

But by all means, let's keep beating Williamson's dead horse while the hyenas stalk their living prey.

911 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 12:34:15pm

re: #909 hazzyday

There probably is a name for this type of activity in German. Find one bad malcontent in a group and then color the whole group with the malcontents colors.

There is. It's called Sippenhaft. Collective responsibility and collective punishment. The Nazis were masters of the art.

912 hazzyday  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 12:35:28pm

re: #65 Angus Day

Cripes, it's getting as bad as CNN in here.

He isn't being 're-instated'. He isn't a Bishop, nor has the Pontiff made him, or re-instated him, to a Bishop - he is not a catholic Bishop, he never was a Catholic Bishop, and, as long as he holds the views he does, the Pontiff has made it clear, he never will hold any position within the church.

He is now able to receive communion within normal catholic churches - that is all.

Can all of you who are shouting nonsense about this tell me - at your church, are people's views on historical events checked before they are received? Should the Catholic Church be adding new parts to the catechism, relating to the Holocaust? Is it only the holocaust, or are we to check for other loony views on history?

What are the facts here? I can't tell which is nonsense and which is not. I think the meaning of a church is that sinners are allowed inside. There should be no problem of this guy being a Catholic or of any other religion. There would be a problem giving him a position of authority to lead and guide church members. He's not qualified to do that anywhere except at a troofer convention.

913 rhythman  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 12:38:46pm

i just read this and may I respectfully say, f**k him

914 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 12:46:15pm

re: #503 Rancher

Mexico has turned into a huge narco-terrorist state that shows no sign of improving. Drug money has corrupted the legal system much like alcohol prohibition corrupted Chicago and other cities in the twenties and thirties. Hand in hand with this is the gang problem in the US which finances and recruits using drug traffic profits. Chicago has again become more dangerous than most other cities in the world because of this. We need to legalize some drugs in this country and I believe once things get much worse we will.

In Singapore, drugs are by-gum-illegal. Dealing carries the death penalty. For all I know, possession carries the death penalty. Drug money hasn't corrupted the legal system; the legal system has pretty much annihilated the drug problem. Singapore is a low crime city-state.

We can have the rule of law, low crime, and liberty in almost all things. Legalizing heroin, cocaine, meth, etc. etc. will make matters worse than you can possibly imagine. Alcohol has its social costs but they're tolerable and alcohol has its pluses [hic] as well as its downside. Perhaps the same can be said of marijuana. But somewhere, there's a line. Drugs that predictably and consistently turn otherwise useful or at least harmless citizens into deadly menaces or zombies who must be institutionalized, have to be illegal.

915 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 1:23:10pm

re: #910 Cato the Elder

Your argument reminds me of one which was proposed in a philosophy class. Basically, the argument states (Peter Singer is prone to this style of argumentation, btw ): "The worst thing in the world is X, if you're not devoting all your efforts to the eventual elimination of X, then you're not doing anything worthwhile." In other words, one issue stands out in particular, and trumps all other concerns. (For some this trump card might be "Islamist extremism," but you should also realize that there are other pressing concerns in the world as well, and are equally concerning and worth fighting-- and "Islamic extremism" should not trump every other concern. Or, expressed differently, "it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time.")

916 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 1:40:23pm

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

I don't know what kind of "routine anti-Christian crap" you are referring to.

If you are referring to things which express that they do not believe in Christianity--well, surprise surprise. Since Jews don't believe the way Christians do, there will inevitably be "anti-Christian" sentiments expressed if/when the two religions are compared. That is no more remarkable than a Christian expressing a desire for Jews to accept Jesus; while "anti-Jewish," this is not intended as an expression of hatred.

If you are referring to blanket statements that non-Jews in general, and/or Christians in particular, are antisemitic, this is an unfortunate and overbroad blanket statement--but the history of the Jewish people and of Christian/Jewish interaction does certainly contain plenty of evidence for it. American Christians, as a group, tend to be far more philo-semitic than Christians in historical Christendom, i.e., Europe; there are any number of historical reasons for this which are too lengthy to go into now. But certainly there is a long history of religiously-driven antisemitism in Europe, the memory of which is still reasonably lively even a couple of generations removed from the European experience. There are, of course, also examples of Christian antisemitism in the US, but this is far less deep, and has always been far less virulent, than its European counterpart.

If you are referring to blanked condemnations of "conservative Christians," you are dealing not so much with a Jewish phenomenon, but with a liberal bigotry against religion in general which, though it is grafted onto the residual memory of Christian antisemitism, owes far more to liberal biases than to anything identifiable with Jews or Judaism.

The routine anti-Christian crap I've experienced in my family (and within other Jewish families) I refer to has nothing to do w/Jewish theology vs Christian theology per se; nor does it have to do w/distorted Liberalism per se - it has to do w/mundane ignorance and bigotry stemming from the usual culprits: false pride and ignorance.

What!? Jewish people are capable of bigotry? Why yes, buzzsaw, they are. And that sentiment is reflected in many of the posts on this site (made of course, not only by Jews, but by people from all sorts of persuasions, including uninformed Catholics). Opinions which rely on ignorance concerning the motivations of the Pope, acting on behalf of the Catholic Church.

The Pope has revoked the excommunication of a man who was never a Catholic Bishop, was not excommunicated for his anti-Semitic slurs (he would have been, had he been making them in his capacity as Catholic priest) but was excommunicated for his anti-Catholic beliefs (which led to a Church schism) and is being allowed back into the Church as a priest w/out an office of priesthood. I repeat: I believe the Pope did this in order to neutralize the anti-Semitic power that this false Christian denomination was accruing and I think his plan will be effective.

There are Jews (as I write) sitting in Temple services who commit, for instance, incest with their children. My hateful relatives go to services w/impunity on the High Holy Days, along with a bunch of other imperfect human beings. Pragmatically, I'd prefer they sit w/the Lord and at least be exposed to a chance they will repent and mend their ways then to be thrown out on their asses which would effectively reduce their chances of dealing w/reality in, shall we say, more beneficial ways.

917 J.S.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 1:50:48pm

re: #916 Daisy

[Williamson is] "being allowed back into the Church as a priest w/out an office of priesthood."

Can you explain what that means? You mean Williamson, the antisemite, will be a part of the Catholic religious "officialdom" -- NOT just "an ordinary Joe." Right?

918 So?  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 2:02:30pm

Bishop Richard Williamson is probably dealing with his inner rage that he didn't get a chance to gas Jews himself. If it were up to me this guy would be out on the streets rummaging through garbage cans to feed himself. Continuing to calling this man a bishop is a disgrace.

919 rasta16ry  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 2:27:20pm

re: #910 Cato the Elder

Trouble is, that would mean tackling an enemy who's right on their doorstep, if not already in the house, and that takes courage. Not the kind that earns you applause from those who hate the Catholic Church, but the kind that earns you a 24-hour guard.

I'm not holding my breath.

But by all means, let's keep beating Williamson's dead horse while the hyenas stalk their living prey.

Totally. Not only does the media ignore the real problem, they facilitate it by putting the blame elsewhere. Most Catholics in the world would be angry about the Church being lumped in with Williamson and his ilk, but they won't go blowing up innocents. Can't say the same for the real culprits.

920 AndyMacOP  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 2:34:57pm

Reading and trying to make theological and ecclesiastical sense out of many of the posts on this thread is like trying to get actual scientific facts from the Discovery Institute.

921 Lynn B.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 2:48:28pm

re: #910 Cato the Elder

The perfect is the enemy of the good, Cato. Not everyone sets the bar for "courage" as high as you seem to.

It's too bad for Merkel that the Islamofascists and their supporters (in Germany and elsewhere) don't consider Merkel's challenges of them as insignificant as you do. Again, she's stood up taller and stronger than any other European leader I can think of.

Beyond that ... J.S. (#915) has already put it much more eloquently than I could have.

922 Lynn B.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 3:00:02pm

re: #916 Daisy

wow. just ... wow.

WTF is your problem?

923 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 4:17:22pm

re: #921 Lynn B.

The perfect is the enemy of the good, Cato. Not everyone sets the bar for "courage" as high as you seem to...

You seem to think I'm issuing a blanket condemnation of Merkel. I'm not. I highly esteem and honor her for her support of Israel.

Unfortunately in their public statements on Islamo-Fascism and venomous Jew-hating propaganda, Merkel and the rest of the European Union as well as the United States come up short. In fact, to use J.S.'s words, though they should be able to, they choose not to walk and chew gum at the same time. The condemnation of Williamson and the Pope is loud and clear, as it should be, but then the targets are not going to start building suicide bombs. Why can't you understand that in comparison the silence on the filth exposed by MEMRI in the Arab-Muslim world, which is also targeted at Europe's and America's Muslim citizens, is DEAFENING?

Even the article you quoted from JPost sees this problem:

Without saying it explicitly, Merkel seems to understand that various threats from the world of Islam, besides the Iranian one she mentioned, share the totalitarian characteristics of Nazism and communism. That is probably included when she says that threats to Israel are also threats to Germany. However it is not yet politically correct to explicitly name the major hate - Islamist incitement and violence - as the greatest danger to the world.

For that we may have to wait a few more years.

How long, O Lord, how long? A few more years? Until what happens? How much more has to happen?

It is time to say, as a British friend of mine would put it, "Sod political correctness. Say it explicitly."

That is what I'm trying to promote here. Enough about Williamson, Merkel. Put your mouth where your money is and pillory the poisonous mullahs and imams. They're already gunning for you. What do you have to lose?

924 AndyMacOP  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:07:06pm

Archbishop Lefebvre's father died in a concentration camp in 1944

925 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:16:34pm

re: #917 J.S.

Can you explain what that means? You mean Williamson, the antisemite, will be a part of the Catholic religious "officialdom" -- NOT just "an ordinary Joe." Right?

What it means is that a priest takes a vow that lasts for life. Therefore, once a priest, always a priest. However, in his new status (as a reinstated Catholic) he will not be able to perform the rituals of priesthood; he will be able to participate in the Catholic liturgy as a layman. He was never ordained a Bishop within the auspices of the Catholic Church, therefore, his title/function of "Bishop" would not be recognized by Catholics under any circumstances, as title denoting Catholic Bishop status. Finally, he will be an ordinary Joe, insofar as one could call someone who makes such heinous claims "ordinary".

926 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:18:40pm

re: #922 Lynn B.

wow. just ... wow.

WTF is your problem?

What are you talking about?

927 Wild Knight  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:20:55pm

I think some people ought to read this and reflect on it carefully:

Archbishop Lefebvre's father died in a concentration camp... saved Jews

928 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:32:27pm

re: #927 Wild Knight

I think some people ought to read this and reflect on it carefully:

Archbishop Lefebvre's father died in a concentration camp... saved Jews

Good read. The current Pope's cousin was murdered by the Nazis and both Pius X and Pius Xll saved many Jews (and as many Catholics as was possible). But hey, why destroy wishful revenge fantasies w/reality? Life is complicated. If Williamson has been spouting his Holocaust denial when he was a legitimate Catholic priest, that would have been grounds for excommunication. The fact that he was excommunicated for joining forces w/Lefebvre's breakaway sect is not given it's due. Oh well. Finally, there seems to be a lot of fundamental confusion on this thread between acceptance and approval, two distinct mechanisms. Oh well again.

929 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:34:47pm

re: #920 AndyMacOP

Reading and trying to make theological and ecclesiastical sense out of many of the posts on this thread is like trying to get actual scientific facts from the Discovery Institute.

Andy -
I'm glad to see you here.
But you aren't seeing theological experts here.
You're just seeing plain old regular people. The many Catholics are are just regular folks, trying to live good and faithful lives and do right.

And when our Church's leaders act (or in the case of some priests, fail to act) in such a way that it seems that there are no consequences for some people, depending on who they are, for what appear to be egregious violations of doctrine, then that makes it really almost impossible for us to explain to our children the value of living right and doing right.

If the Church is quiet when Nancy Pelosi or Mary Landrieu promote abortion, it is very very difficult to explain to a teenager why it is wrong, and why they should have any respect for the Church and her leaders who remain silent.

When a man who has been excommunicated is reinstated and then is allowed to portray himself as a Bishop of the Catholic Church, and speaks out in interviews promoting anti-semitic views, his words carry weight with those who listen to him, and yet the Church remains silent.

We believe the Church needs to be aware of how its silence in the face of these things has a negative effect on our ability to instill in our children a sense of what is right and what is wrong, and a sense of trust and respect for the Church. We believe that at least some of the men in charge have lost touch with the reality of life as a regular every-day Catholic. It is a daily struggle to try to maintain an appropriate sense of pride and joy in our Catholic faith.

930 Daisy  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 5:50:13pm

re: #929 reine.de.tout

I appreciate your moral concerns and seriously find them laudable. However, in point of fact, Williamson was not ordained in the Church as a Bishop, nor is he considered a legitimate Bishop by the Church. He was ordained as a priest and became a Bishop under Lefebvre's breakaway sect .. for which he, along w/other adherents to the sect, were excommunicated. He will remain a priest, but not be allowed to perform the functions of a priest.

931 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:40:34pm
“If I find this proof, then I will correct myself,” he said. “But that will require some time.”

I can just picture this scumbag adding "that is, when hell has frozen over" in his mind, smugly.

932 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:46:53pm

re: #930 Daisy

I appreciate your moral concerns and seriously find them laudable. However, in point of fact, Williamson was not ordained in the Church as a Bishop, nor is he considered a legitimate Bishop by the Church. He was ordained as a priest and became a Bishop under Lefebvre's breakaway sect .. for which he, along w/other adherents to the sect, were excommunicated. He will remain a priest, but not be allowed to perform the functions of a priest.

Daisy - I understand all of that perfectly well.

My concern is that Williamson is presenting himself as a Bishop, dressing like a bishop, and allowing himself to be portrayed in news stories as "Bishop" instead of clarifying that point. I have not seen Williamson himself clarify that point. But all of this, oddly, makes this guy fairly easy to explain to our young'uns.

It's the silence of the Church on this and other issues that is not so easy to explain.

I have a friend with a master's degree in Religious Education from Boston College, who is one of the most knowlegeable people I know about Catholicism, and she has devoted all her spare time to volunteer teaching and ministry in her parish. I often seek her thoughts on issues that I am confused about.

And on these issues, her concerns are very similar to mine. So I don't believe I am completely off base. And I fully admit that whatever views I have on this are greatly colored by my role as a parent of a teen who I am trying to keep on the right path.

933 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 6:48:18pm

re: #931 000G

I can just picture this scumbag adding "that is, when hell has frozen over" in his mind, smugly.

We don't know what's in his mind.

We do know what we hear from him and what we observe about his actions. And that's bad enough - no need to go making stuff up about what may or may not be in his mind.

934 AndyMacOP  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 7:49:16pm

re: #929 reine.de.tout

Daisy makes a good point, but I am not sure if it is completely correct. The ordination was valid, but illicit. So he was ordained a bishop, but illegally if you will. In any case, I think she is right in that he and the others will not be functioning as bishops if and when SSPX is brought back into full communion. That has not happened. Benedict's move was to start the process in good faith, but it certainly backfired.

My opinion: This is another sad episode that totally distracts one from the authentic and eternal message of Jesus Christ, which this man should be focused on totally as an ordained priest. It's difficult to see a heart full of the love of God in such a situation, and that saddens me deeply.

Good to see you reine! 3 months exactly to the oils on my hands!

935 Lynn B.  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 8:19:10pm

re: #923 Cato the Elder

How long, O Lord, how long? A few more years? Until what happens? How much more has to happen?

It is time to say, as a British friend of mine would put it, "Sod political correctness. Say it explicitly."

That is what I'm trying to promote here. Enough about Williamson, Merkel. Put your mouth where your money is and pillory the poisonous mullahs and imams. They're already gunning for you. What do you have to lose?

If you don't know the answer to that question, I can't help you. And you've turned J.S.'s excellent argument completely on its head. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand your position on this issue at all.

Nor (and this isn't directed at you, Cato) do I understand why a totally unverifiable comment on a SSPX website purporting to be from a Jew who supposedly had relatives that were saved by Lefebvre's father merits the slightest consideration here. Especially given that this individual characterizes the SSPX as "a very tolerant group," which should have shot his credibility to shit right off the bat.

Charles has nailed this. It's interesting to watch all the attempts at justification and obfuscation going on here in response. But this happens to be an issue I undoubtedly have too much of an emotional investment in. So in the interest of my sanity, I'm leaving it (or at least this thread, permanently) here.

/it's hopefully dead anyway ... and a stinky one it was

936 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 9, 2009 9:03:46pm

re: #935 Lynn B.

If you don't know the answer to that question, I can't help you. And you've turned J.S.'s excellent argument completely on its head. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand your position on this issue at all.

Let me see if I can make it real simple:

1. Williamson, an obscure schismatic would-be bishop, says vile things, and by revoking his excommunication, the Pope seemed to support them.

2. The Pope has demanded a retraction from W., which he will not get; therefore W. will have no official role in the Church.

3. People justifiably despise W. and take the Pope to task. Will the Pope cut W. off from communion? No. Does that infuriate some people? Yes. Can they say anything they like about it with impunity? Certainly.

Now, follow me closely, while I compare and contrast:

1. Sheikh al-Qaradawi, a prominent so-called "moderate" Muslim cleric with a worldwide audience and powerful supporters in the West, says vile things, and by not loudly condemning them, the great and powerful in the world seem to be condoning them.

2. As far as I am aware, no one in power in the West has demanded a retraction from him, or threatened him with expulsion if he comes to their countries, or canceled speaking engagements he may have, or otherwise said a word. He can be guest speaker at any MSA affair for all I know.

3. People justifiably despise Q., but no one takes his powerful friends to task. Will the West cut him off from visiting? Apparently not. Does that infuriate some people? Yes. Can they say anything they like about it with impunity? Not likely. They would be branded "racists", "Islamophobes", "haters" or worse.

Do you see the disconnect here? The Pope demands a retraction and cuts W. off from power. The world yawns at Q. and lets him go about his business.

So the Pope gets nothing but blame for W., though he has condemned him, while the silent Western establishment gets a pass on Qaradawi.

The world is oh-so-brave to excoriate Williamson, which in fact costs nothing, but chickenshit yellow about calling out Qaradawi.

If you don't see a major problem with that, we're living in different worlds. Enjoy yours while you can.

937 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 3:58:02am

re: #933 reine.de.tout

We don't know what's in his mind.

We do know what we hear from him and what we observe about his actions. And that's bad enough - no need to go making stuff up about what may or may not be in his mind.

How about him having hatred for jews? Can I make that up in my mind?

938 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:45:08am

re: #937 000G

How about him having hatred for jews? Can I make that up in my mind?

Of course not. Easily observed from his words.
That's my point.

939 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 10, 2009 4:50:13am

re: #934 AndyMacOP

Daisy makes a good point, but I am not sure if it is completely correct. The ordination was valid, but illicit. So he was ordained a bishop, but illegally if you will. In any case, I think she is right in that he and the others will not be functioning as bishops if and when SSPX is brought back into full communion. That has not happened. Benedict's move was to start the process in good faith, but it certainly backfired.

My opinion: This is another sad episode that totally distracts one from the authentic and eternal message of Jesus Christ, which this man should be focused on totally as an ordained priest. It's difficult to see a heart full of the love of God in such a situation, and that saddens me deeply.

Good to see you reine! 3 months exactly to the oils on my hands!

And it is a distraction as well for regular run-of-the-mill sorts like me. Which is why I feel it is so important for the Vatican to take strong stand.

And absolutely, it is very difficult to see a heart full of the love of God in this situation. That's the kind of down-to-earth POV that makes sense to regular Joes!

3 months - I know you are anxious, excited, happy - the whole gamut of emotions, I'm sure.
Am praying for you!

940 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 12, 2009 4:18:45am

re: #938 reine.de.tout

Of course not. Easily observed from his words.
That's my point.

Ditto.


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