This is just an amazing, transcendent performance of a classic song. Music doesn't get any more beautiful.

Who's watching CNN?

Wow! This CNN interview w the new witness... Just wow!

— Charles M. Blow (@CharlesMBlow) March 30, 2012

Every day should be steak day.

MmmmmMMMMMMMmmmmmm. MMMM.

re: #2 Hoodies for Justice. T

Who's watching CNN?

[Embedded content]

It's over apparently...just checked and they're at commercial

re: #4 darthstar

It's over apparently...just checked and they're at commercial

Charles Blow's next tweet:

Witness: fight was on grass, not sidewalk...

— Charles M. Blow (@CharlesMBlow) March 30, 2012

re: #5 Hoodies for Justice. T

Charles Blow's next tweet:

A fight on wet grass that left no visible stains on Zimmerman's jacket. Amazing.

re: #6 Targetpractice

A fight on wet grass that left no visible stains on Zimmerman's jacket. Amazing.

And cement head butt.

This story is so shitty. We'd all be fine if the Po-lice did their job.

All I remember about Sanford is that's where you stayed to save $ when going to Disney. (close, but not on Disney $$$$$ proper)

re: #1 Charles Johnson

I remember the Lettermen's version from when I was very young.

re: #7 Hoodies for Justice. T

And cement head butt.

This story is so shitty. We'd all be fine if the Po-lice did their job.

All I remember about Sanford is that's where you stayed to save $ when going to Disney. (close, but not on Disney $$$ proper)

Well, as the story I linked down downstairs points out, the investigation has pretty much had to start all over again. From all appearances, the initial "investigation" was such a crock that everything, from witnesses to whatever forensic evidence can be examined at this point, has to be gone over again before the grand jury is impaneled.

The big points from this new witness: 1) The confrontation happened on the grass, not the concrete, directly contradicting Zimmerman's account, and 2) Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon when the shot was fired, not the reverse, also directly contradicting Zimmerman and his lawyer.

This case is really reeking now.

Zimmerman is lying and it looks like pd is going along.

re: #10 Charles Johnson

The big points from this new witness: 1) The confrontation happened on the grass, not the concrete, directly contradicting Zimmerman's account, and 2) Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon when the shot was fired, not the reverse, also directly contradicting Zimmerman and his lawyer.

This case is really reeking now.

But...but...but Joe Oliver assured me!

///

I would like to know (just out of curiosity) if Mr. Zimmerman had ever applied for a job with any police department.

re: #12 Targetpractice

But...but...but Joe Oliver assured me!

///

I'm sure he'll give an adequate rebuttal on his new Fox Show, Joe Oliver: Black Friend for Hire.

BY the way, I did buy a mega millions ticket and I know that the odds of winning are the same as being mauled by a" polar bear and a regular bear on the same day," Frank!

re: #13 EdDantes

I would like to know (just out of curiosity) if Mr. Zimmerman had ever applied for a job with any police department.

Pretty sure we know the answer to be 'yes'.

re: #13 EdDantes

I would like to know (just out of curiosity) if Mr. Zimmerman had ever applied for a job with any police department.

He asked for a letter of recommendation a few years back, but there's no record of him every applying. He did take part in a citizen's law-enforcement program, but that's not much. And he's in his third year of a two year course at the local community college, with the stated goal of getting into law enforcement.

re: #16 erik_t

Pretty sure we know the answer to be 'yes'.

That would be my guess.

re: #15 EdDantes

BY the way, I did buy a mega millions ticket and I know that the odds of winning are the same as being mauled by a" polar bear and a regular bear on the same day," Frank!

Are you implying that a polar bear is not a regular bear?

re: #17 Targetpractice

He asked for a letter of recommendation a few years back, but there's no record of him every applying. He did take part in a citizen's law-enforcement program, but that's not much. And he's in his third year of a two year course at the local community college, with the stated goal of getting into law enforcement.

"This Law Enforcement studying is hard! Just gimme a gun and a car!"

re: #17 Targetpractice

He asked for a letter of recommendation a few years back, but there's no record of him every applying. He did take part in a citizen's law-enforcement program, but that's not much. And he's in his third year of a two year course at the local community college, with the stated goal of getting into law enforcement.

Really? I've heard the two-year course part, but not the third year part.

re: #15 EdDantes

I bought a MegaMillions ticket too. It would be nice to win. I know the odds are extremely long.

Well, decided to check the video again. And gave up when I realized his pants are either dark or rain-soaked, meaning if there's grass stains on them, I can't see them. Least not with a video of such poor quality.

re: #17 Targetpractice

That was fast! I hate to stereotype, but I know that kind of person which is why I asked.

re: #22 Georgia Tech Aunt

I bought a MegaMillions ticket too. It would be nice to win. I know the odds are extremely long.

Good luck! If you win we it split right?

re: #24 EdDantes

That was fast! I hate to stereotype, but I know that kind of person which is why I asked.

Not a prob, I'd known the broad strokes, but had to check Wiki to be sure. Yeah, this is a cop wannabe, but for whatever reason, he's never tried to upgrade to actual cop. Perhaps that's why he's slimmed down since his '05 mugshot, preparing to apply to the academy this summer.

re: #10 Charles Johnson

The big points from this new witness: 1) The confrontation happened on the grass, not the concrete, directly contradicting Zimmerman's account, and 2) Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon when the shot was fired, not the reverse, also directly contradicting Zimmerman and his lawyer.

This case is really reeking now.

Interesting. Did the new witness talk to police or just the press? Nobody else is reported to have witnessed the shooting according to the police.

re: #19 wrenchwench

Are you implying that a polar bear is not a regular bear?

I meant no offense to any bears who are not polar (or bi-polar as the case may be)

re: #25 EdDantes

lol. You can split your winnings with whomever you choose. I am paying off my mortgage. After that I will consult with my accountant.

re: #25 EdDantes

Good luck! If you win we it split right?

I sounded like Yoda.

re: #27 Killgore Trout

Interesting. Did the new witness talk to police or just the press? Nobody else is reported to have witnessed the shooting according to the police.

I don't know if he talked to the police - I didn't see the very beginning of the segment.

re: #31 Charles Johnson

I don't know if he talked to the police - I didn't see the very beginning of the segment.

Not that I think it really matters at this point, as we now have two witnesses who've said that the cops were leading/correcting testimony and acting as though the "investigation's" results were a foregone conclusion.

The lotto. The best thing is the feeling. The dream of what you'd do.
A friend said, pick 100 people that you know. Distant fam, co-workers, friends, get to 100. Give em all 200K. You will be karma'd out!

Bye Bye Blackberry:

BlackBerry giving up on the consumer market

Struggling BlackBerry maker Research in Motion Ltd. said Thursday that it will cede most consumer markets after failing to compete with flashier touch-screen phones such as Apple's iPhone and models that run Google's Android software.

Instead, RIM said it will return to its roots and focus on business customers, many of whom prefer BlackBerrys for their security. RIM has had limited success trying to enter consumer markets in recent years, and RIM CEO Thorsten Heins said a turnaround required "substantial change."

"We plan to refocus on the enterprise business and capitalize on our leading position in this segment," Heins said. "We believe that BlackBerry cannot succeed if we tried to be everybody's darling and all things to all people. Therefore, we plan to build on our strength."

Wonderful performance of one of my favorite songs.

re: #10 Charles Johnson

The big points from this new witness: 1) The confrontation happened on the grass, not the concrete, directly contradicting Zimmerman's account, and 2) Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon when the shot was fired, not the reverse, also directly contradicting Zimmerman and his lawyer.

This case is really reeking now.

Strictly a hypothesis here, but dig this:

Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle to "check the street signs" (in other words, to chase down and confront Martin), gets into some sort of scuffle with Martin, and winds up on top of Martin, with Martin face down, in an attempt to restrain him. Zimmerman, for whatever reason, had his gun out while on top of Martin in an attempt to command compliance and, because of nerves or getting bumped or whatever, ends up shooting Martin point-blank in the back.

That would go a long way to explain a lot of things: why the ME's report hasn't been released, why the state attorney themselves met straight away that night with Chief Lee and the lead homicide detective and determined that no charges would be filed (at the time), and a bunch of other hinkey shit that's gone on since.

Anyone else got anything better? The more I look at this and what's been trickling out, the more the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

re: #33 Hoodies for Justice. T

The lotto. The best thing is the feeling. The dream of what you'd do.
A friend said, pick 100 people that you know. Distant fam, co-workers, friends, get to 100. Give em all 200K. You will be karma'd out!

As Jack Paar said, " It is not enough that I succeed, but some of my friends must fail."

911 caller arrested in Pasadena police shooting

Police were dispatched to the scene after a man, identified as Oscar Carrillo, called 911. He said two armed men had stolen his laptop computer and backpack as he was buying tacos at a stand on Orange Grove Boulevard.

But on Wednesday, officials said that Carrillo, 26, lied to police about the existence of a gun and that detectives now believe neither McDade nor the other person were armed.

Carrillo was arrested on suspicion of involuntary manslaughter.

"Mr. Carrillo emphatically indicated a gun was involved ... that is very important. It sets the platform for the mind-set of the responding officers," Pasadena Police Chief Phillip Sanchez said at a news conference Wednesday.

On a 911 tape released by police, Carrillo is heard saying first that one of the suspects had a gun and later that both were armed. Here is an excerpt:

"Two guys ... just put a gun in my face," the caller said.

"It was two guys.... Oh my God."

The dispatcher asked for details about the attackers and in which direction they fled.

"Did they have any weapons?" the dispatcher asked.

"Yeah, they have a gun," the caller responded.

"Do you remember anything about the gun?" the dispatcher asked.

"Both have a gun, man," the man said. "They run away from me."

Sanchez said that after more interviews, Carrillo admitted to detectives that he lied about the gun.

re: #33 Hoodies for Justice. T

The lotto. The best thing is the feeling. The dream of what you'd do.

I know exactly what I'd do -- pay off my bills and student loans in full, make sure my mom's taken care of, set myself up with a condo/loft, new furniture, and new car, then talk to a financial advisor, attorney, and accountant about securing the rest in a combination of savings and investments.

After that, who knows. But I know what my first moves would be.

re: #38 Kragar

911 caller arrested in Pasadena police shooting

DId I read earlier that Carillo has been charged with manslaughter?

re: #40 allegro

DId I read earlier that Carillo has been charged with manslaughter?

Yeah.

re: #40 allegro

DId I read earlier that Carillo has been charged with manslaughter?

Yes:

Carrillo was arrested on suspicion of involuntary manslaughter.

re: #36 talon_262

Strictly a hypothesis here, but dig this:

Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle to "check the street signs" (in other words, to chase down and confront Martin), gets into some sort of scuffle with Martin, and winds up on top of Martin, with Martin face down, in an attempt to restrain him. Zimmerman, for whatever reason, had his gun out while on top of Martin in an attempt to command compliance and, because of nerves or getting bumped or whatever, ends up shooting Martin point-blank in the back.

That would go a long way to explain a lot of things: why the ME's report hasn't been released, why the state attorney themselves met straight away that night with Chief Lee and the lead homicide detective and determined that no charges would be filed (at the time), and a bunch of other hinkey shit that's gone on since.

Anyone else got anything better? The more I look at this and what's been trickling out, the more the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

I ran much the same scenario through my head, though I'm not sure it was accidental discharge. I think it more likely that Zimmerman had Martin pinned, causing the boy to cry out for help. Zimmerman panicked, perhaps out of fear that somebody would hear the cries and intervene in Martin's favor, and shot him. I've heard of similar scenarios in other cases, particularly in kidnappings, where the fear that a child crying out would bring down retribution that the kidnapped killed the child to "silence" them.

re: #33 Hoodies for Justice. T

The lotto. The best thing is the feeling. The dream of what you'd do.
A friend said, pick 100 people that you know. Distant fam, co-workers, friends, get to 100. Give em all 200K. You will be karma'd out!

I wouldn't give anyone shit, I'd start businesses with it, wait for the businesses to succeed (if they do) and THEN I start being generous

teach a man to fish, etc :-)

re: #44 windupbird is in the gravity well

I would rub my enemies noses in it and make them squeal like pigs.
Was that out loud?

re: #44 windupbird is in the gravity well

I wouldn't give anyone shit, I'd start businesses with it, wait for the businesses to succeed (if they do) and THEN I start being generous

teach a man to fish, etc :-)

Good point. With that kind of money, you could easily go a long way as an entrepreneur.

re: #43 Targetpractice

I ran much the same scenario through my head, though I'm not sure it was accidental discharge. I think it more likely that Zimmerman had Martin pinned, causing the boy to cry out for help. Zimmerman panicked, perhaps out of fear that somebody would hear the cries and intervene in Martin's favor, and shot him. I've heard of similar scenarios in other cases, particularly in kidnappings, where the fear that a child crying out would bring down retribution that the kidnapped killed the child to "silence" them.

If true, that sounds like second-degree murder, rather than the involuntary manslaughter that it could be with an accidental discharge.

re: #33 Hoodies for Justice. T

The lotto. The best thing is the feeling. The dream of what you'd do.
A friend said, pick 100 people that you know. Distant fam, co-workers, friends, get to 100. Give em all 200K. You will be karma'd out!

Okay if I win 10K for every upding on this post.
////!

re: #45 EdDantes

I would rub my enemies noses in it and make them squeal like pigs.
Was that out loud?

DOWN WITH DANGLARS AND VILLEFORT!

re: #36 talon_262

Strictly a hypothesis here, but dig this:

Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle to "check the street signs" (in other words, to chase down and confront Martin), gets into some sort of scuffle with Martin, and winds up on top of Martin, with Martin face down, in an attempt to restrain him. Zimmerman, for whatever reason, had his gun out while on top of Martin in an attempt to command compliance and, because of nerves or getting bumped or whatever, ends up shooting Martin point-blank in the back.

That would go a long way to explain a lot of things: why the ME's report hasn't been released, why the state attorney themselves met straight away that night with Chief Lee and the lead homicide detective and determined that no charges would be filed (at the time), and a bunch of other hinkey shit that's gone on since.

Anyone else got anything better? The more I look at this and what's been trickling out, the more the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

I'm waiting for the autopsy report to be released. It's apparently done but under seal at least till the grand jury (which will convene in the next week or two) sees it, and probably longer.

Zimmerman used a 9mm. Given the range (regardless of story) there should be an entry and exit wound unless (a) it was a high-frangible (not just hollow-point) or (b) it hit some ribs just right. The original story was shot in chest, and I'll tentatively accept it for now. I do want to know what the coroner said about the two holes, however (if there were two holes).

One point I've raised multiple times is the location of the fight. It was in the middle of the (long) block in the back yards between condo complexes. Zimmerman had to walk almost a block to get to a street sign, and it's peculiar he had to do so by walking the center sidewalk instead of the front sidewalk near where he parked. Oh - grass is found either at the sides or behind the building. None of the buildings have grass in front.

On a separate line, the more I know the more I think most of the police involved did their jobs. The one who has me peeved the most is not a policeman. It's a district attorney who decided - apparently even before all the evidence was brought in - that there wasn't enough for a conviction and called it self defense. Yes, there are some police who need a major job-check, but if the DA hadn't tossed the case none of this would have played this way.

re: #33 Hoodies for Justice. T

The lotto. The best thing is the feeling. The dream of what you'd do.
A friend said, pick 100 people that you know. Distant fam, co-workers, friends, get to 100. Give em all 200K. You will be karma'd out!

I really admire kickstarter and that whole crowd source funding concept. Imagine what you could fund with a big win. How many jobs might come out of it?

re: #49 Kragar

DOWN WITH DANGLARS AND VILLEFORT!

AND AFTER A GRILLED HAM SANDWICH WITH MAYBE SOME GRUYERE!

re: #49 Kragar

DOWN WITH DANGLARS AND VILLEFORT!

Indeed. I will have revenge!

re: #53 EdDantes

Indeed. I will have revenge!

Just call me Morrel.

Yeah, I know this is from DU, but it's too perfect to pass up:

The Case of the Amazing Disappearing Evidence

re: #52 The Ghost of a Flea

AND AFTER A GRILLED HAM SANDWICH WITH MAYBE SOME GRUYERE!

Fine...I'm the only one that think Comte De Monte Cristo/Monte Cristo sandwich jokes are funny.

I'm going to go sulk.

re: #54 Kragar

Just call me Morrel.

You're my best bud.

If I won the Mega Millions, I would set up trust funds for each one of my grandkids on the condition that they set up trust funds for their grandkids!

The thread is dead but I didn't kill it.
It can come back to life if you will it.

re: #59 EdDantes

The thread is dead but I didn't kill it.
It can come back to life if you will it.

It'll come back to life if you clap and believe hard enough.

re: #60 The Ghost of a Flea

Just what I was thinking.

re: #33 Hoodies for Justice. T

The lotto. The best thing is the feeling. The dream of what you'd do.
A friend said, pick 100 people that you know. Distant fam, co-workers, friends, get to 100. Give em all 200K. You will be karma'd out!

I can feel that without even winning.

Gimme the karma.

If I win the lottery, I'm making my own lottery... with hookers and blackjack.

re: #55 Targetpractice

I'm sure by now ALEC has written new model legislation excluding police precinct surveillance videos from FOIA requests.

re: #63 Kragar

If I win the lottery, I'm making my own lottery... with hookers and blackjack.

How long before you say, "forget the blackjack"?

///

re: #58 Learned Mother of Zion

If I won the Mega Millions, I would set up trust funds for each one of my grandkids on the condition that they set up trust funds for their grandkids!

Don't forget a few million to lobby against any nasty anti oligarchy estate taxes.

About those increased "justifiable homicides" in Florida? Politifact did a work up. Maybe it's 200% not 250%. But its 40 (in 2010) times in a state that recorded well over 16,000 crimes with lethal weapons like guns and knives. I excluded the "bare knuckle" assaults and murders. Now I have the number of cases to pull from Findlaw or lexis. Paged.

re: #54 Kragar

Just call me Morrel.

I love mushrooms.

re: #48 Daniel Ballard

Okay if I win 10K for every upding on this post.
///!

Bad joke I guess. My apologies.

re: #33 Hoodies for Justice. T

The lotto. The best thing is the feeling. The dream of what you'd do.
A friend said, pick 100 people that you know. Distant fam, co-workers, friends, get to 100. Give em all 200K. You will be karma'd out!

My best feeling, after all the obvious ones, would be that after taxes I would still have more money than Mitt Romney. Then I would think about how to bet him on what to do with it.

re: #69 Daniel Ballard

Bad joke I guess. My apologies.

I thought it was kind of funny. A little bit...

If I win Mega Millions, I'm buying an elevator for my 2004 Malibu.

After the obvious, I'd put together an entire imperial guard regiment.

re: #1 Charles Johnson

This is just an amazing, transcendent performance of a classic song. Music doesn't get any more beautiful.

Unfortunately listening to this on my notebook must leave out half of the actual music. I hope you heard it from a different source.

re: #73 Kragar

After the obvious, I'd put together an entire imperial guard regiment.

But would you shell out for John Williams to compose a march for them?

re: #75 The Ghost of a Flea

But would you shell out for John Williams to compose a march for them?

Nah, Iron Maiden.

re: #76 Kragar

Nah, Iron Maiden.

How about Judas Priest?

If I won the lottery? Pay all the bills, buy myself some land out in the middle of nowhere, and build a zombie-proof fortress in anticipation of the coming apocalypse.

/

re: #75 The Ghost of a Flea

But would you shell out for John Williams to compose a march for them?

Nope, the WH stuff alone will cost him his fortune.

re: #77 talon_262

How about Judas Priest?

Nope, that would be for a Dark Eldar force.

Nobody loves the Tau.

:(

re: #81 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Nobody loves the Tau.

:(

SHORT BLUE 3 FINGERED GITZ!

re: #81 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Nobody loves the Tau.

:(

They're better than those wimpy humans.
/Picking a fight with Kragar

re: #82 Kragar

SHORT BLUE 3 FINGERED GITZ!

I sense much hate in you...

re: #84 Altar Boy of Darwinism

I sense much hate in you...

Yeah, he got beat by some Orks.
:P

re: #83 Varek Raith

They're better than those wimpy humans.
/Picking a fight with Kragar

I'll send another wave, we've got more.

My husband had back surgery yesterday, and when the nurse, who is male, said his previous job was an EMT. He said that when you are working on a suspect unless they are in critical condition, pictures are always taken first. You never remove blood or change their appearance. He also stated that Zimmerman is full of it. He also said that Martin's blood should be on him if he was as close as he stated.

My second point. When I first moved into my neighborhood, I got talked into being the treasurer of the homeowners association. We had a lawyer that was President and the home builder set it up when he started the neighborhood. They never allowed a Neighborhood watch because of this very reason of vigilante watchmen and the injuries that could happen to them or others.

From reports I've read, the people of this neighborhood knew that Zimmerman was carrying a weapon and was indeed a Neighborhood watch captain. What they may find out that they can be held liable too for the killing of Martin and if they have to pay a judgement if they don't have an insurance policy. The amount awarded will be divided up by the number of homes in the addition and they each will have to pay. And if they refuse, a lien will be placed on their house. That's what you get for allowing someone to run around policing the neighborhood.

Secret NOM memos: strategy was to pit minorities against gays, drive wedge between two Democratic party constituents.

[Link: www.hrc.org...]

And these people claim Obama is the divisive one?

Late to the topic, but I so dearly love the standards work his trio has done. I've only discovered it in the last couple of years so there's still lots out there I'm finding all the time. Insanely beautiful renditions of classics like the one in this video. Thank you for positing this tonight.

Trayvon Martin shooting transforms part-time mayor

re: #87 justaminute

My husband had back surgery yesterday, and when the nurse, who is male, said his previous job was an EMT. He said that when you are working on a suspect unless they are in critical condition, pictures are always taken first. You never remove blood or change their appearance. He also stated that Zimmerman is full of it. He also said that Martin's blood should be on him if he was as close as he stated.

My second point. When I first moved into my neighborhood, I got talked into being the treasurer of the homeowners association. We had a lawyer that was President and the home builder set it up when he started the neighborhood. They never allowed a Neighborhood watch because of this very reason of vigilante watchmen and the injuries that could happen to them or others.

From reports I've read, the people of this neighborhood knew that Zimmerman was carrying a weapon and was indeed a Neighborhood watch captain. What they may find out that they can be held liable too for the killing of Martin and if they have to pay a judgement if they don't have an insurance policy. The amount awarded will be divided up by the number of homes in the addition and they each will have to pay. And if they refuse, a lien will be placed on their house. That's what you get for allowing someone to run around policing the neighborhood.

That was my impression, that you don't try to "spruce up" a suspect, you patch them up so that they can be taken into the station and that's it.

re: #91 Targetpractice

That was my impression, that you don't try to "spruce up" a suspect, you patch them up so that they can be taken into the station and that's it.

Doing their laundry is right out.

re: #87 justaminute

I was under the impression that he wasn't part of any official neighborhood watch.

re: #93 Altar Boy of Darwinism

I was under the impression that he wasn't part of any official neighborhood watch.

He wasn't - he was a self-appointed "watchman." Legitimate Neighborhood Watch members do not carry guns and they don't confront suspicious people. They watch and report, that's all.

re: #93 Altar Boy of Darwinism

I was under the impression that he wasn't part of any official neighborhood watch.

I have read both, but I saw one on TV that someone stated that he was a neighborhood watch captain. Plus as many times as he has called in police reports there is no way that the people of that neighborhood did not know what he was doing. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't call him when they were worried, especially if they previously had problems. I got calls from the neighbors about crime in the neighborhood and I was just the treasurer. And we're not gated. They knew. And it will be fairly easy to prove.

re: #95 justaminute

I have read both, but I saw one on TV that someone stated that he was a neighborhood watch captain. Plus as many times as he has called in police reports there is no way that the people of that neighborhood did not know what he was doing. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't call him when they were worried, especially if they previously had problems. I got calls from the neighbors about crime in the neighborhood and I was just the treasurer. And we're not gated. They knew. And it will be fairly easy to prove.

If the term neighborhood watch appears in any of the HOA meeting minutes they're likely in trouble.

re: #94 Charles Johnson

He wasn't - he was a self-appointed "watchman." Legitimate Neighborhood Watch members do not carry guns and they don't confront suspicious people. They watch and report, that's all.

Yes, but we haven't seen the President of the Neighborhood Association confirming or denying. And we won't. Nor have I seen police state what he was, one way or another. If they let him act as one even without the title, they can still be held liable.

re: #96 goddamnedfrank

If the term neighborhood watch appears in any of the HOA meeting minutes they're likely in trouble.

We have 10 common areas and a small lake. A portion of the addition is closed off and gated. We also have brick walls all around the neighborhood and it is an extremely large addition. I had to sit it a meeting one time because we were switching our insurance. The homeowners association owns the common area, the lake and the brick wall. The insurance was extra if we had a neighborhood watch and there was so much liability with it. That is why we don't have one.

Another thing that comes to mind about how the police report makes no sense is that it says EMTs from the SFD cleared Zimmerman, yet the media has yet to find them. How hard would it be to call the SFD and ask who was on duty that night?

With a neighborhood watch, if a neighbor doing his duty came upon a crime and tried to apprehend and was killed or as a witness and killed, the neighborhood could be sued. As well if you have a report, a subject is jailed, and it was all a mistake. Lawsuit for the association too. There are many scenarios and we've talked through all of them every couple of years at the Neighborhood association meeting because it always comes up.

re: #95 justaminute

Plus as many times as he has called in police reports there is no way that the people of that neighborhood did not know what he was doing.

Zimmerman had 911 on speed dial. From his long record of making frivolous 911 calls (46 was the number I saw) there is no way the Sanford police department didn't know all about him and his propensity to label any African Americans in the neighborhood as "suspicious looking". I am a bit surprised that ALEC the Florida legislature didn't already write a law criminalizing frivolous 911 calls.

Wake up!

Sound the charge! Attack!

re: #101 Mich-again

Zimmerman had 911 on speed dial. From his long record of making frivolous 911 calls (46 was the number I saw) there is no way the Sanford police department didn't know all about him and his propensity to label any African Americans in the neighborhood as "suspicious looking". I am a bit surprised that ALEC the Florida legislature didn't already write a law criminalizing frivolous 911 calls.

In that video, you will notice that in the film, the officer going through his pockets has no gloves on. If Zimmerman had blood on him he definitely would have gloves on. Plus he was contaminating evidence. Maybe they were deliberately sabotaging the evidence. Looks that way to me.

re: #93 Altar Boy of Darwinism

I was under the impression that he wasn't part of any official neighborhood watch.

Not "officially" as in he registered, filled out paperwork. But he apparently was their neighborhood watch go to guy. He sent emails to all the residents.

re: #103 justaminute

Zimmerman's lawyer said that he had a laceration on his neck that should have gotten stitches. But there were no bandages over any wounds on his neck, even though the police said paramedics gave him first aid and released him. If he needed stitches, he wouldn't have been released, or at the very least there would have been bandages.

Mitt Romney should learn from Don Draper. You can't just change your identity and expect there to be no consequences.

— pourmecoffee (@pourmecoffee) March 30, 2012

re: #104 Hoodies for Justice. T

Not "officially" as in he registered, filled out paperwork. But he apparently was their neighborhood watch go to guy. He sent emails to all the residents.

That's not being a neighborhood watch, that's being either a helpful security-minded neighbor, or a paranoid pain in the ass.

re: #105 Mich-again

Zimmerman's lawyer said that he had a laceration on his neck that should have gotten stitches. But there were no bandages over any wounds on his neck, even though the police said paramedics gave him first aid and released him. If he needed stitches, he wouldn't have been released, or at the very least there would have been bandages.

That nurse/EMT said it is also standard procedure to place a sheet around the suspect if he will let them so they don't transfer any contaminants to him. Plus remove any as well as transfer and usually the whole process is photographed. And he stated that it was not unusual to wait if there is no eminent danger to wait until he is transferred to the police station since they have trained professionals there that can do an EMT's job. And if Zimmerman was truly injured and had just shot someone, he himself would have asked right then to be taken to the hospital. He was really counting on his cop buddies. I bet they will find that he has an extensive relationship with them.

I wondered why the local authorities didn't just make the arrest and instead they waited for permission from the State AG which never came. I mean, do cops across the State always wait till the AG pipes in? In the Sanford website, there is the explanation why they checked first. Apparently the State of Florida came down hard on municipalities in 2011 and forced them to amend their city codes to delete any references to local controls over gun use and spelled out the stiff financial penalties for any local officials who tried to enforce firearm regulations not concurrent with State law. Its very likely the Sanford Police officials wondered if they would face a $5,000 fine for arresting Zimmerman. Behold the Tea Party / GOP. They claim to be for small government, but they strong-arm local government into surrendering control and discretion to them. Ordinance Number 2011- 4254

Usually if corruption is suspected in a police department all the way from the officers to the Police Chief, you could expect the FBI to investigate. This could get really interesting because waiting for an indictment to be handed down on contaminated evidence as well as possibly corrupted officials; we could be waiting weeks if not months for someone/anyone to be arrested.

1. George ambushes Trayvon. 2. Trayvon who's been trying to get away from this man who's been stalking him is startled -- he probably sees George as a mugger and someone who might kill him. 3. Trayvon lunges at him. He might have already seen that this stranger has a gun. Or George may very well have been brandishing his weapon already. 4. They both fall to the ground at which time George receives a bump and a small laceration in the back of his head. 5. At the same time that happened Trayvon had his hand around George's neck which result in another small gash. 6. They both get back up. George is still not letting down. He comes towards Trayvon aggressively and Trayvon punches him in the nose. 7. George shoots Trayvon from a short distance...

Either one could have been yelling almost murmuring for help. George actually has the type of family background that would almost require him to call out for help -- he knew he had his family backing on this and from his father (a former US Magistrate). He ambushed Trayvon and Trayvon stood his ground.

Trayvon Martin: The Very Last Word

Lawrence O'Donnell and his panel of Harvard Fellow Farai Chideya, New York Times columnist Charles M. Blow, Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart, and criminal expert Eugene O'Donnell continue their conversation on the Trayvon Martin case after tonight's show.

re: #111 Gus

With all the nice technology we have today, it shouldn't be that hard to discover who was yelling as we still have a live one, Zimmerman.

re: #113 justaminute

With all the nice technology we have today, it shouldn't be that hard to discover who was yelling as we still have a live one, Zimmerman.

I don't think it's central to the case.

re: #109 Mich-again

Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that states can do that. Federal law on firearms holds primacy, of course, but otherwise state governments are the masters of their own house where firearms are concerned. Pennsylvania did that, I think while Ed Rendell (D) was governor. Philadelphia refused to accept concealed carry permits issued elsewhere in the state and would not issue its own, so the state legislature passed a bill revoking municipalities ability to enact firearms regulations, arrogating all such power to the state government. Philly sued, but the courts sided with the state.

George ambushed Trayvon. He had too. He got in his face and started a fight. He knew he could shoot anyone with his gun and claim SYG or some kind of gun biased self defense law -- thanks NRS (cough). He willingly created this situation and willingly shot Trayvon. That's not manslaughter...

Like they always say. If you're unarmed and some guy's coming at you with a gun right? Even if you're unarmed? You should be still coming at them even with 5 holes in your torso like the movies.

re: #116 Gus

George ambushed Trayvon. He had too. He got in his face and started a fight. He knew he could shoot anyone with his gun and claim SYG or some kind of gun biased self defense law -- thanks NRS (cough). He willingly created this situation and willingly shot Trayvon. That's not manslaughter...

Unfortunately it's also not a crime in Florida where Walking While Black is, apparently, a capital offense.

re: #94 Charles Johnson

He wasn't - he was a self-appointed "watchman." Legitimate Neighborhood Watch members do not carry guns and they don't confront suspicious people. They watch and report, that's all.

They would also be in contact with other members of their group on an ongoing basis - and I suspect they'd never go out on a watch alone. I'd be surprised if he's ever received any kind of formal neighborhood watch training.

re: #118 William Barnett-Lewis

Unfortunately it's also not a crime in Florida where Walking While Black is, apparently, a capital offense.

Right. Which is likely a leading motivator in motivating formulating the confrontation. It is re-written every day in countless confrontation with the police. If cops stopped more white stoners they'd provide more balance in the prison population. But then we'd go broke. That shit has to change. We have to stop institutionalizing people based on police encounters. But that's the way society is. We institutionalize everything. And the main factor here is of course institutionalized racism.

So now Spike Lee is retweeting the threatening tweets he got for retweeting an incorrect address that caused uninvolved people to get threats.

This issue has become really bizarre.

I saw an interview earlier with the Martin's lawyer. Entirely reasonable woman. She said she had no idea whether Zimmerman is a racist - but that it's clear that he was profiling Martin. She was saying that he should be arrested and an investigation should be carried out. She was disturbed that the video seems to contradict what has been said about Zimmerman's and the police account of the events.

What's fascinating about this is that despite all the frigthtwing mouth-frothing, the primary figures on the Martins' side all seem to be consistently classy.

I'm thoroughly disgusted at the chorus of outrageous outrage about Obama. Let this all serve as evidence for those who wish to claim that racism isn't still a prominent attribute of American culture. We have a long fucking way to go.

Which comes into full swing when the police arrive on the scene.

re: #109 Mich-again

I would hold that argument in greater regard, except that the Stand Your Ground law does make clear that the police retain the right to investigate any homicide, even if they need probable cause that the homicide was not self-defense to make an arrest. From the section of the law on 'Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force':

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

And investigate is what the Sanford PD did not even try to do. In fact, they went out of their way to support Zimmerman. Had they investigated, they might well have found probable cause, or at the very least could legitimately throw up their hands in frustration. But they made the decision to protect George Zimmerman, and they must be held to account for that.

re: #121 Talking Point Detective

So now Spike Lee is retweeting the threatening tweets he got for retweeting an incorrect address that caused uninvolved people to get threats.

This issue has become really bizarre.

I saw an interview earlier with the Martin's lawyer. Entirely reasonable woman. She said she had no idea whether Zimmerman is a racist - but that it's clear that he was profiling Martin. She was saying that he should be arrested and an investigation should be carried out. She was disturbed that the video seems to contradict what has been said about Zimmerman's and the police account of the events.

What's fascinating about this is that despite all the frigthtwing mouth-frothing, the primary figures on the Martins' side all seem to be consistently classy.

I'm thoroughly disgusted at the chorus of outrageous outrage about Obama. Let this all serve as evidence for those who wish to claim that racism isn't still a prominent attribute of American culture. We have a long fucking way to go.

Spike Lee needs to STFU and STFD on that major fuckup he made, compensate that retired couple that get terrorized out of their home over his ill-advised tweets, and zip his lip for a while.

The question needs to be asked...

re: #124 talon_262

Spike Lee needs to STFU and STFD on that major fuckup he made, compensate that retired couple that get terrorized out of their home over his ill-advised tweets, and zip his lip for a while.

Quite Concur. George Zimmerman's vile actions were an example of vigilantism in action. Those who would oppose such actions must neither engage in them, nor encourage others to do so.

OK, so here is a story from the Sanford Herald about a man who was arrested for killing a guy he had been drinking with. Deputies arrest Geneva man for homicide

Witnesses said the two men were drinking for several hours at 1098 Settler's Loop in Geneva when they had some type of disagreement. Seminole County officials said that's when John W. Rogers retrieved a rifle from his bedroom, returned back to the living room, and shot James T. DeWitt, 34, of Geneva, at close range, killing him.

Deputies responded to the residence shortly after 4 p.m. and arrested and charged Rogers with murder.

re: #125 darthstar

The question needs to be asked...

Cute little kid...that bottle of tea looks almost as big as them!

On the message, I approve.

re: #124 talon_262

Spike Lee needs to STFU and STFD on that major fuckup he made, compensate that retired couple that get terrorized out of their home over his ill-advised tweets, and zip his lip for a while.

He did

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

re: #129 blueraven

He did

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

I know about that, but until the check's in the McClains' hands, Lee just needs to lay low about his part in all of this for a few days.

re: #103 justaminute

In that video, you will notice that in the film, the officer going through his pockets has no gloves on. If Zimmerman had blood on him he definitely would have gloves on. Plus he was contaminating evidence. Maybe they were deliberately sabotaging the evidence. Looks that way to me.

That never happens! The police are there to serve and protect!

I don't have to answer for Spike Lee. What he did was wrong. But the ACLU will defend a neo-Nazi for doing the same thing the next day. Sure it's wrong but it really creates a wedge issue that leaves one stuck in the mud. Same like people can still be pro-life and not be for the Party of God or murdering abortion doctors.

re: #129 blueraven

He did

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

He also apologized, and their lawyer said

"The McClain’s claim is fully resolved. Thank you Spike!!!"

He fucked up and it seems he's been accountable for doing so.

So now how about all the assholes sending him threatening tweets, presumable because they're outrageously outraged that people received threatening tweets because of his tweet?

Do you get my point? This is, basically, one big circle-jerk.

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

I would hold that argument in greater regard, except that the Stand Your Ground law does make clear that the police retain the right to investigate any homicide, even if they need probable cause that the homicide was not self-defense to make an arrest. From the section of the law on 'Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force':

And investigate is what the Sanford PD did not even try to do. In fact, they went out of their way to support Zimmerman. Had they investigated, they might well have found probable cause, or at the very least could legitimately throw up their hands in frustration. But they made the decision to protect George Zimmerman, and they must be held to account for that.

The only person so far in the SPD who didn't seem to go along with the cover-up was the lead homicide investigator, the guy whose job it was to actually handle the case. He spent 2 weeks trying to bring charges, which was enough time to find witnesses, to test evidence, to do an autopsy, to do all sorts of investigative work on the case.

Quite honestly, I can only conclude that either an effort was made to deliberately let him off or that the SYG law made prosecuting him so impossible that they decided that a cover-up was less messy.

re: #127 Mich-again

OK, so here is a story from the Sanford Herald about a man who was arrested for killing a guy he had been drinking with. Deputies arrest Geneva man for homicide

Well, to be fair, that case was pretty clear cut. The rifle caliber entrance wound to the head with no signs of a struggle would destroy any claim of self-defense, especially since Rogers was clearly drunk when the police arrived. But it does show the Sanford PD can actually do their jobs when they want to. But in Trayvon Martin's case, they clearly did not want to.

re: #127 Mich-again

OK, so here is a story from the Sanford Herald about a man who was arrested for killing a guy he had been drinking with. Deputies arrest Geneva man for homicide

re: #135 Dark_Falcon

Well, to be fair, that case was pretty clear cut. The rifle caliber entrance wound to the head with no signs of a struggle would destroy any claim of self-defense, especially since Rogers was clearly drunk when the police arrived. But it does show the Sanford PD can actually do their jobs when they want to. But in Trayvon Martin's case, they clearly did not want to.

Umm, no; in this instance, it was Seminole County deputies who responded to the call and locked the guy up, not Sanford PD, because it appears to be in the county's jurisdiction.

By Google Maps, Geneva appears to me to be at least 2-3 miles east-southeast of Sanford.

re: #134 Targetpractice

The only person so far in the SPD who didn't seem to go along with the cover-up was the lead homicide investigator, the guy whose job it was to actually handle the case. He spent 2 weeks trying to bring charges, which was enough time to find witnesses, to test evidence, to do an autopsy, to do all sorts of investigative work on the case.

Quite honestly, I can only conclude that either an effort was made to deliberately let him off or that the SYG law made prosecuting him so impossible that they decided that a cover-up was less messy.

To me, only the former makes sense. A perfunctory investigation that ended up accepting Zimmerman's story would have had the same effect as getting behind Zimmerman and pushing, and it would have carried far lesser risk. The deciding factor in my mind is the active effort to force the facts and witness accounts to fit Zimmerman's story, something the law does not at all require. The laws do not fine a municipality simply because some of the evidence collected by its police is contradictory. The lengths the SPD went to cannot be explained by simple self-protection of their own. They only make sense if protecting Zimmerman was a primary goal.

re: #132 Gus

It all reinforces my belief that our society is caught up in some sort of Reality TV fantasy with delusions of being on Jerry Springer's show, with constant familial back-biting and gossiping, all trying to hurt the other at whatever cost.

As for me, I can't keep up with all of this action. I've withdrawn into the simpler (hah!) task of looking for an unknown grandfather with a supposed but not confirmed name, a supposed marriage for which I can find no record, and a daughter (not my mother) who seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth 82 years ago, which, if I could locate could possible settle the whole issue.

re: #135 Dark_Falcon

Well, to be fair, that case was pretty clear cut. The rifle caliber entrance wound to the head with no signs of a struggle would destroy any claim of self-defense, especially since Rogers was clearly drunk when the police arrived. But it does show the Sanford PD can actually do their jobs when they want to. But in Trayvon Martin's case, they clearly did not want to.

Well. I doubt it. Robert Zimmerman pulled some strings and the Stanford PD followed the "word from high up." That's what PD's do all the time 24/7. If not they were already thinking, "oh shit, this is that judge's kid."

re: #136 talon_262

re: #135 Dark_Falcon

Umm, no; in this instance, it was Seminole County deputies who responded to the call and locked the guy up, not Sanford PD, because it appears to be in the county's jurisdiction.

By Google Maps, Geneva appears to me at least 2-3 miles east of Sanford.

Sorry, my error. The man's guilt was still utterly clear in that case though. Even a patrol officers cursory investigation would establish probable cause for an arrest.

re: #138 freetoken

It all reinforces my belief that our society is caught up in some sort of Reality TV fantasy with delusions of being on Jerry Springer's show, with constant familial back-biting and gossiping, all trying to hurt the other at whatever cost.

As for me, I can't keep up with all of this action. I've withdrawn into the simpler (hah!) task of looking for an unknown grandfather with a supposed but not confirmed name, a supposed marriage for which I can find no record, and a daughter (not my mother) who seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth 82 years ago, which, if I could locate could possible settle the whole issue.

On the reality TV end? For sure. Just as easily can this society find cause in Trayvon's shooting they can easily ignore it. The next day "70% of Americans" will believe in invading Iran.

Image: worstalbumcovers21.jpeg
Image: worstalbumcovers06.jpeg
Image: worstalbumcovers16.jpeg

Go look at them all...I think you'll agree I avoided posting the most tasteless one.

[Link: blog.tastebuds.fm...]

re: #135 Dark_Falcon

I don't think the caliber makes much difference in a point blank shot to the chest or to the head. But as for the Sanford Police, I think after the Trayvon Martin killing, they will probably arrest everyone from now on caught up in a situation like that and let the prosecutors figure it out later. As for how they treated Zimmerman, I'll just point out that character is how you act when you think no one is watching.

re: #139 Gus

Well. I doubt it. Robert Zimmerman pulled some strings and the Stanford PD followed the "word from high up." That's what PD's do all the time 24/7. If not they were already thinking, "oh shit, this is that judge's kid."

That explanation makes sense. Police sometimes do indeed actively avoid causing trouble for a judge or his/her family, since a hostile judge can simply fuck an entirely legitimate case to death.

re: #143 Mich-again

I don't think the caliber makes much difference in a point blank shot to the chest or to the head. But as for the Sanford Police, I think after the Trayvon Martin killing, they will probably arrest everyone from now on caught up in a situation like that and let the prosecutors figure it out later. As for how they treated Zimmerman, I'll just point out that character is how you act when you think no one is watching.

Cave [pronounced 'ca-vey'], Deus Videt!

Translation from Latin: Beware, God Sees!

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

That explanation makes sense. Police sometimes do indeed actively avoid causing trouble for a judge or his/her family, since a hostile judge can simply fuck an entirely legitimate case to death.

As sure as the Earth spins around the Sun. It's still wrong but I've always had little hope for man.

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

To me, only the former makes sense. A perfunctory investigation that ended up accepting Zimmerman's story would have had the same effect as getting behind Zimmerman and pushing, and it would have carried far lesser risk. The deciding factor in my mind is the active effort to force the facts and witness accounts to fit Zimmerman's story, something the law does not at all require. The laws do not fine a municipality simply because some of the evidence collected by its police is contradictory. The lengths the SPD went to cannot be explained by simple self-protection of their own. They only make sense if protecting Zimmerman was a primary goal.

I'm not so sure the primary goal was protecting Zimmerman so much as it was protecting the city from the financial consequences of trying him in court. The cops get on the scene and find a dead kid and a guy swearing that he was fighting to protect himself and that he should in "self-defense." The moment that got up the chain to the chief and the state attorney, it probably started ringing alarm bells. And the word came down to do everything possible to stonewall, hamper, and otherwise destroy the investigation in order to avoid charging Zimmerman.

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

They only make sense if protecting Zimmerman was a primary goal.

Or if Trayvon Martin simply didn't register to them as a person who's life and death mattered. In conjunction with the SYG law that mentality produces a half assed investigation. IMO people are inferring too much of an overt conspiracy to subvert justice when Occam's razor would indicate the likeliest cause of events is a subconscious perception filter (still insidious, and all too pervasive.)

re: #132 Gus

I don't have to answer for Spike Lee. What he did was wrong. But the ACLU will defend a neo-Nazi for doing the same thing the next day. Sure it's wrong but it really creates a wedge issue that leaves one stuck in the mud. Same like people can still be pro-life and not be for the Party of God or murdering abortion doctors.

I know pro-life republicans (well, as of 2006-ish they were identifying as republican) who are no longer voting republican, because they're not crazy, they sorta don't like voting for psychos :D

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

That explanation makes sense. Police sometimes do indeed actively avoid causing trouble for a judge or his/her family, since a hostile judge can simply fuck an entirely legitimate case to death.

It's almost as if the justice system is indistinguishable from organized crime!

"We'll let your kid commit felonies, and give him Get Out Of Jail Free Cards if you fast-track our cases!"

"Deal!"

re: #148 goddamnedfrank

Or if Trayvon Martin simply didn't register to them as a person who's life and death mattered. In conjunction with the SYG law that mentality produces a half assed investigation. IMO people are inferring too much of an overt conspiracy to subvert justice when Occam's razor would indicate the likeliest cause of events is a subconscious perception filter (still insidious, and all too pervasive.)

My curiosity involves all the ways in which this guy seemed to be able to magically disappear his run ins with the law

twinkle, twinkle!

re: #144 Dark_Falcon

That explanation makes sense. Police sometimes do indeed actively avoid causing trouble for a judge or his/her family, since a hostile judge can simply fuck an entirely legitimate case to death.

Except Robert Zimmerman's an ex-magistrate judge from Virginia, not a sitting on in Florida. He might have some pull in the state attorney's office through mutual friends, but I doubt he's got enough to get his son off a murder rap.

Random utterance: Oklahoma did a pretty poor job of recording information until recently. Yeah, I know it wasn't a state until the 20th century, but the county in which I am looking doesn't even appear to have had a working clerks office for quite some time.

2nd random utterance: it's unfathomable to me why states don't have their records digitized and online by now. Massachusetts seems to be leading the pack here; most states' offices are acting like they don't even know there are things called "computers" which could make all of this much easier than doing everything by hand.

re: #153 freetoken

Random utterance: Oklahoma did a pretty poor job of recording information until recently. Yeah, I know it wasn't a state until the 20th century, but the county in which I am looking doesn't even appear to have had a working clerks office for quite some time.

2nd random utterance: it's unfathomable to me why states don't have their records digitized and online by now. Massachusetts seems to be leading the pack here; most states' offices are acting like they don't even know there are things called "computers" which could make all of this much easier than doing everything by hand.

Have they yet discovered the written word?

re: #154 Gus

Have they yet discovered the written word?

Only the Red Letter version.

re: #153 freetoken

2nd random utterance: it's unfathomable to me why states don't have their records digitized and online by now. Massachusetts seems to be leading the pack here; most states' offices are acting like they don't even know there are things called "computers" which could make all of this much easier than doing everything by hand.

It's perfectly fathomable to me!

If you're a corrupt/incompetent local government used to having your way with no scrutiny, why would you want more oversight and easily searchable records?

re: #154 Gus

Have they yet discovered the written word?

they've discovered that if nobody's watching them, they can get away with more

human nature

re: #157 windupbird is in the gravity well

they've discovered that if nobody's watching them, they can get away with more

human nature

One of the recent ultrasound laws just got shot down by a court.

re: #156 windupbird is in the gravity well

If you're a corrupt/incompetent local government used to having your way with no scrutiny, why would you want more oversight and easily searchable records?

I suppose the argument is that it would cost too much. Yes, it would take an investment up front to create a digital online archive. But MA has counties that have already digitized land transactions from the 1600's and has them online for no charge.

Freaking Los Angeles county wants to charge me $21 for an information-only Birth Certificate, non-refundable, and if the person does't exist what do you get for your $21? Nothing.

At least they recorded births in Los Angeles. Western Oklahoma - not so much.

Oaaaaaklahoma.

Ultrasound Mandate Struck Down in Oklahoma

re: #147 Targetpractice

I'm not so sure the primary goal was protecting Zimmerman so much as it was protecting the city from the financial consequences of trying him in court. The cops get on the scene and find a dead kid and a guy swearing that he was fighting to protect himself and that he should in "self-defense." The moment that got up the chain to the chief and the state attorney, it probably started ringing alarm bells. And the word came down to do everything possible to stonewall, hamper, and otherwise destroy the investigation in order to avoid charging Zimmerman.

I don't really agree with that. They ran risks far too great to justify such a goal. If they had turned up serious evidence that burst Zimmerman's story, then they would not have been at serious risk. Penalties of the kind the law allows for the filing of charges that should not have been filed do not apply if the case goes to trial, at least not unless the defendant is acquitted and often not even then (since laws allow for someone having been tried and acquitted with the prosecutor acting in good faith).

re: #152 Targetpractice

Except Robert Zimmerman's an ex-magistrate judge from Virginia, not a sitting on in Florida. He might have some pull in the state attorney's office through mutual friends, but I doubt he's got enough to get his son off a murder rap.

That I had not know.

re: #162 Dark_Falcon

That I had not know.

re: #160 Gus

Oaaaklahoma.

Ultrasound Mandate Struck Down in Oklahoma

yup..Headlines in the local paper today.. Good for the judge

re: #161 Dark_Falcon

I don't really agree with that. They ran risks far too great to justify such a goal. If they had turned up serious evidence that burst Zimmerman's story, then they would not have been at serious risk. Penalties of the kind the law allows for the filing of charges that should not have been filed do not apply if the case goes to trial, at least not unless the defendant is acquitted and often not even then (since laws allow for someone having been tried and acquitted with the prosecutor acting in good faith).

SYG doesn't. If charges are dropped or you're acquitted, the city is on the line for all your legal expenses, lost wages, and any other expenses incurred in the defense against the charges. Add on the lawsuit for "wrongful imprisonment" and it starts to get costly for the city.

re: #164 HoosierHoops

yup..Headlines in the local paper today.. Good for the judge

Thank goodness for "activist" judges. Pleh! Damn these guys are out there on left field. Oops. Right field!

re: #165 Targetpractice

SYG doesn't. If charges are dropped or you're acquitted, the city is on the line for all your legal expenses, lost wages, and any other expenses incurred in the defense against the charges. Add on the lawsuit for "wrongful imprisonment" and it starts to get costly for the city.

I believe you are reading that section wrong. The relevant section:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

(Bolding mine)

What that means is that if you shoot someone and are sued for having done so, if you are found to be immune from prosecution you are entitled to recover the costs of defending yourself against the suit. I do not believe that section can be read support a person found "Not Guilty by Reason of Self Defense" suing the city for having tried him, unless he or she could show the city acted in bad faith

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

To further clarify, the right to recover damages is against a civil plaintiff who has sued you, not against a municipality that has charged you with a crime. The law is needed as suits for personal injury or wrongful death are often filed before any criminal case goes to trial, and can proceed even if the criminal case is dismissed (which can happen for reasons other than the defendant's actions being found in self-defense).

By my reading, the law is stating that if you sue someone for injuries that they inflicted in what is determined to be self-defense, then they can sue you to recover the money you cost them. And if you are found guilty of committing a crime and were injured by someone acting in self-defense during the commission of that crime, if you sue that person and lose your prison privileges can be revoked and any wages received from a prison job may be garnished:

(4) In any civil action where a party prevails based on the defense created by this section:
(a) The losing party, if convicted of and incarcerated for the crime or attempted crime, shall, as determined by the court, lose any privileges provided by the correctional facility, including, but not limited to:
1. Canteen purchases;
2. Telephone access;
3. Outdoor exercise;
4. Use of the library; and
5. Visitation.
(b) The court shall award a reasonable attorney’s fee to be paid to the prevailing party in equal amounts by the losing party and the losing party’s attorney; however, the losing party’s attorney is not personally responsible if he or she has acted in good faith, based on the representations of his or her client. If the losing party is incarcerated for the crime or attempted crime and has insufficient assets to cover payment of the costs of the action and the award of fees pursuant to this paragraph, the party shall, as determined by the court, be required to pay by deduction from any payments the prisoner receives while incarcerated.
(c) If the losing party is incarcerated for the crime or attempted crime, the court shall issue a written order containing its findings and ruling pursuant to paragraphs (a) and (b) and shall direct that a certified copy be forwarded to the appropriate correctional institution or facility.

re: #125 darthstar

The question needs to be asked...

He doesn't look like Obama's son!!!

/

Well, will you look at this: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #171 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Well, will you look at this: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Hey you! Just finished Clapton and Beck play live on the big screen..Awesome!
OK There are many layers in society about what we American's wear.. That pic means nothing..Hell my Mom wore hoodies with her girlfriends playing golf..Babies wear hoodies.. Hoodies are also all things sports..In the inner city the hoodie is the urban legend...From the white boy trying to be black with a hoodie like in the movie 8 miles to 50 cent walking towards you in his hoodie with his new gun in get rich or die trying. That dude can wear a hoodie..
/

re: #171 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Well, will you look at this: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Seen it.

re: #173 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

Don't fucking tell me this is not a photoshop.

Image: tumblr_m1cvp4aUbQ1rssd6zo1_500.jpg

Don't.

WTF.

This is not a photoshop.

[Link: www.ecrater.com...]

*drink*

Good Morning Lizards!

Drizzly and cool in the Rhine Basin this morning. The beer has been good, the work has been bad, but nothing has been really ugly so far, other than my German.

re: #176 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

But at least have you seen the Dom yet?

re: #174 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

re: #175 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Sleep well tonight, my dear Sergey.

Sleep well, and dream of large mustaches.

/BWAHAHAHA!!!

re: #178 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

Thank God it's Friday morning here.

re: #177 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

But at least have you seen the Dom yet?

Haven't seen much of anything really. Been within 10km of Bruhl since Monday for the most part. No trip up to Cologne yet. And pretty much work -> dinner -> hotel (sleep) -> work cycle in that time.

re: #180 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Haven't seen much of anything really. Been within 10km of Bruhl since Monday for the most part. No trip up to Cologne yet. And pretty much work -> dinner -> hotel (sleep) -> work cycle in that time.

DO YOU HAVE ANY CONSCIENCE?!?!?! ///

re: #180 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Haven't seen much of anything really. Been within 10km of Bruhl since Monday for the most part. No trip up to Cologne yet. And pretty much work -> dinner -> hotel (sleep) -> work cycle in that time.

Plan to take kiddies to Brühl over Easter Break to visit Phantasialand, a big amusement park complex.

re: #179 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Thank God it's Friday morning here.

Ah, lucky you. You have an entire day to wipe that from your mind's eye. Coffee, breakfast, the scramble to work or whatever you do with your day.

Hustle and bustle. Duties and responsibilities. The exciting or mundane endeavors that pay the bills. A decent, or maybe a completely crappy lunch.

The slow crash of the last few occupational hours, wrapping up the duties of the day, contemplating the boring, petty nonsense that might have infused itself in your professional life.

Then quitting time. Maybe a drink or two at the local bar. Maybe just a quiet evening with a microwave dinner and your favorite television shows.

Then time for sleep. As you retire, all is forgotten but the embrace of your mattress. A warm comfort not unlike the womb.

And just as your consciousness begins to hang it's hat and coat for the night...

BAM!!! Right in your mind's eye.

Have a nice day, Sergey.
:P

re: #183 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

Do you write erotic prose in your spare time?

/

re: #184 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

No, but I watch it.

Oh, wait. You typed "prose", not "poses"...
Never mind.

re: #185 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

No, but I watch it.

Oh, wait. You typed "prose", not "poses"...
Never mind.

Yeah, I noticed that you found Geraldo's torso suspiciously fast. Must've seen it before. //

re: #183 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

I should have been to bed hours ago..Stuff happened..I am dreading 4 hours from now..The emails will start flying in...I'm be drinking coffee by the gallon cursing my stupidity.. Live communicator will start from different offices...
What's up?
Would you please not type so freaking loud?

And the Blackberry.. It fills the role as best and worst thing in my life.. You know that little buzz every 2 minutes?
Sometimes I won't have it on and still feel a buzz..I reach for the phone..Whoops false alarm!
I hate that

re: #186 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

I'll just be honest here. I will not rest until all you can picture when you close your eyes is a full frontal, mostly naked Geraldo wearing nothing but an unzipped, sky blue hoodie.

I think big mustache is often an alien form that roots itself under the nose and sprouts its tentacles in the brain, making a person a wingnut.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Former U.S. diplomat John Bolton alleged Thursday that the Obama administration leaked a story about covert Israeli activity in order to foil potential plans by the country to attack Iran's nuclear program.

re: #188 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

I'll just be honest here. I will not rest until all you can picture when you close your eyes is a full frontal, mostly naked Geraldo wearing nothing but an unzipped, sky blue hoodie.

Hey, whatever gets you off, man! NTTAWWT! //

re: #190 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

You won't be able to explain it. Your friends, relatives and coworkers will question it and mock it. You'll hate it, but you won't be able to stop it.

But by the end of next month, YOU WILL SPORT IT!

And the Heavens shall weep in despair.

_{and Geraldo will weep with joy}

Well it's been nice, and it's been real. And it's been real nice. But I should log off and go to bed. G'nite all.

Oh, and Sergey?

_{:whispers:geraldogeraldogeraldo:whispers:}

re: #193 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

Well it's been nice, and it's been real. And it's been real nice. But I should log off and go to bed. G'nite all.

Oh, and Sergey?

_{:whispers:geraldogeraldogeraldo:whispers:}

Good dreams.

*evil grin*

Morning, all

Carrier and McGrath duke it out in the comments:

[Link: freethoughtblogs.com...]

Japan says it will shoot down N. Korea rocket over territory

Tokyo (CNN) -- Japan will shoot down any part of the long-range rocket that North Korea plans to launch next month that enters its territory, the Japanese defense minister, Naoki Tanaka, said Friday.

Speaking at a news conference, Tanaka said he had issued the official order after instructing the Japanese military earlier in the week to prepare the country's missile defense shield against the planned rocket launch.

Might have me a place to rent on the Island. Sure would be nice to have electricity and running water again.
Morning Honcos.

“There’s a Senator from my state who wants to get elected President. I don’t know why he would want to do that, because he would have to move into a smaller house.”

-Mitt Romney, 2004

OLDSMAR — Detectives have arrested an Oldsmar man on suspicion of sexually abusing a 6-year-old girl.

Fizul Karim, 56, who was arrested today, faces one count of sexual battery on a child under 12.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

If convicted, life in prison. And he's a douche.

re: #199 Varek Raith

“There’s a Senator from my state who wants to get elected President. I don’t know why he would want to do that, because he would have to move into a smaller house.”

-Mitt Romney, 2004

I believe that the bulk of the Democratic campaign could simply consist of confronting Romney with some of his famous quotes.

The parents of two British students murdered in Florida have criticised President Barack Obama for his lack of compassion over their son's deaths.
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
These guys took a wrong turn. I know where they were killed and I wouldn't even go there during the day. But the murderer got life, so fuck him.

re: #202 Cannadian Club Akbar

Was it not a couple of high-profile carjacking cases in Florida involving foreign tourists that led to SYG?

Spike Lee apologized to the elderly couple after tweeting their address. Good on him.

re: #204 Cannadian Club Akbar

Spike Lee apologized to the elderly couple after tweeting their address. Good on him.

Other reports say he reached a "settlement", which indicates he helped cover their expenses conncted with the gaffe.

What he did was an asshole thing, but at least he apologized and tried to make good. True assholes just double down.

re: #203 Expand Your Ground

Was it not a couple of high-profile carjacking cases in Florida involving foreign tourists that led to SYG?

We had a huge amount of carjackings in the 90's, so no. The guys in the story weren't carjacked. They were in the wrong part of town looking to find some food. But they walked into crack town. Also, the carjackings in the 90's were mainly rental cars which lead to the change in how the plates on rental cars are numbered. (you could tell a rental years ago)

re: #205 Expand Your Ground

Yes. There was a settlement.

re: #196 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

A lot of crosses being borne there.

re: #205 Expand Your Ground

The couple actually hired a law firm named Morgan and Morgan. This is a high powered trial lawyer firm. And my radio just said Rosanne Barr retweeted the address.

re: #209 Cannadian Club Akbar

They deserve every penny they get, and I think those that tweeted their address should have a criminal charge as well.

This Saturday, March 31, meet at the Uhuru House, 1245 18th St at 11AM, and join the march to City Hall to demand justice for Trayvon Martin!
[Link: apscuhuru.org...]
Racism. Alive and well in Florida. They didn't mind when Hydra Lacey Jr. killed cops or when Nicholas Linsey killed a cop. Douchebags.

re: #210 Obdicut

They deserve every penny they get, and I think those that tweeted their address should have a criminal charge as well.

Apparently he was sincere. I'm OK with it if they are. I also didn't like the fact that Anonymous posted the address of the mace happy cop in Cali. A FB friend also posted that cops address, but he's a commie.

re: #202 Cannadian Club Akbar

The parents of two British students murdered in Florida have criticised President Barack Obama for his lack of compassion over their son's deaths.
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
These guys took a wrong turn. I know where they were killed and I wouldn't even go there during the day. But the murderer got life, so fuck him.

In this case, there is nothing for the President to add. The killers were caught, arrested, prosecuted and convicted. That was not the case with Trayvon Martin and that is part of what the scandal is about.

re: #213 Expand Your Ground

What sucks for these guys, besides being dead, is the fact that they were, IIRC, on foot and nowhere near any restaurant (I know where they were). They really walked into the wrong part of town.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- While the rest of us have to wait until June, the justices of the Supreme Court will know the likely outcome of the historic health care case by the time they go home this weekend.
[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

Anyone feel like doing a little research? I need to make sure these people are for real. I have a meeting with them at 1.
[Link: mybpsettlement.com...]

re: #214 Cannadian Club Akbar

What sucks for these guys, besides being dead, is the fact that they were, IIRC, on foot and nowhere near any restaurant (I know where they were). They really walked into the wrong part of town.

Even worse, they looked nothing at all like what Obama's son would have looked like.

/

re: #217 Expand Your Ground

Even worse, they looked nothing at all like what Obama's son would have looked like.

/

They could have. But he married Michele.:)

re: #215 Cannadian Club Akbar

WASHINGTON (AP) -- While the rest of us have to wait until June, the justices of the Supreme Court will know the likely outcome of the historic health care case by the time they go home this weekend.
[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

I am dumbstruck over the debate about healthcare in USA. I just do not understand why so many are against the western European solution. I understand the arguments from those that disagree. I just think they are without merit and truly short sighted.

re: #219 boxhead

Justice Stevens said it best when he said the gubment can't force something on the population and then regulate it. I personally don't want to be fined for not buying into gubment health care. I'll tell you what, gimme back my $5000 I spent on health care that I never used when I was in my 20's. (I am a HSA fan, btw)

re: #220 Cannadian Club Akbar

Justice Stevens said it best when he said the gubment can't force something on the population and then regulate it. I personally don't want to be fined for not buying into gubment health care. I'll tell you what, gimme back my $5000 I spent on health care that I never used when I was in my 20's. (I am a HSA fan, btw)

The Government forces stuff on us all the time. Many that does not help us and many that I may disagree with. Pooling all of us into a single group for health care is how money is saved. That is a fact. And there is ample evidence supporting that fact. The details on doctor patient decisions should be left to the doctor and patient. Again, this stuff is not a mystery. Our employers should not be in the business of providing health care. And the entities that do provide care should not be in the business of maximizing profit.

re: #208 freetoken

Funny thing is, I find McGrath sloppy but agree with him on the big picture, while I admire Carrier's attention to detail, but his explanations about why his interpretations of "brother of the Lord" are more probable than the straight reading strike me as unconvincing.

re: #221 boxhead

I personally have never paid more than $25 a week for insurance. I have an idea. Let a town, be it 20 or 20,000 pool together and let them by insurance as a group. I don't think that's legal, though.

Morning folks

re: #224 RogueOne

Morning folks

Fuck off.
/

re: #223 Cannadian Club Akbar

I personally have never paid more than $25 a week for insurance. I have an idea. Let a town, be it 20 or 20,000 pool together and let them by insurance as a group. I don't think that's legal, though.

That would be some of the current problems writ small and uglier due to the smaller scale. Handling those who do not want to be in the pool, handling transients (and we supposedly have this fairly mobile society), plus having a big enough pool to handle a larger than average event.

And with a small town scale a tornado or something could devastate it, much like the old way of military companies being drawn from a single place could be left decimated simply from that company being in the wrong place at the wrong time in a battle.

re: #223 Cannadian Club Akbar

I will agree that in USA, health care on a national level is quite onerous. State and lower should handle it. That said, people that that don't want to be part of universal coverage are selfish. Here is an example. Say a group of people are on some secluded island. A group of these people are willing to work towards building infrastructure to provide a reliable water supply. Others said they don't want to join cause they can get water on there own. Stuff happens and the easy water ain't so easy anymore. Now they come begging from those that have worked from the start.

Same thing with health care. Those that say, "I am healthy and don't need to pay" will be begging for care when they are older. Again, why is this even up for debate?

re: #226 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

But remember if the gubment runs healthcare, there are people who will run to the doctor the minute they get a runny nose. That will happen. Kinda like calling your car insurance company if your battery dies. This is where the problem lies.

re: #223 Cannadian Club Akbar

My family plan costs over $250/mo. Because I'm self-employed I have to keep my own workers comp coverage (even though I have health insurance) and that cost me $1800/yr. When you toss in my general liability and vehicle insurance I'm paying over $10,000/yr on insurance.

re: #228 Cannadian Club Akbar

But remember if the gubment runs healthcare, there are people who will run to the doctor the minute they get a runny nose. That will happen. Kinda like calling your car insurance company if your battery dies. This is where the problem lies.

Using words like gubment makes one think you are too biased to have honest debate.

re: #227 boxhead

The problem is, the Feds are trying to push Medicare cost onto the States. They can't do that. I'm in Florida. I hear we have a couple of old people. :)

A DK thread re: race and crime.

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

The OP author is a kook who elsewhere claimed that only whites can be racists, but the discussion underneath is interesting.

re: #230 boxhead

Using words like gubment makes one think you are too biased to have honest debate.

I use gubment, honcos, lieberrie. It's just an internet thingy.

re: #231 Cannadian Club Akbar

So you want the Feds to pay for all Medicare costs? How does that work when any attempt to reduce costs without privatizing it are met with screams of communism?

This is still going on in Indiana:

Indiana lacks answers on toxicology lab tests used in criminal cases
30 percent of retested samples from 2007-09 had no trace of drugs
[Link: www.indystar.com...]

Two years and $330,000 in taxpayer money later, the state still cannot definitively answer a critical question:

Just how inaccurate were blood tests conducted by the state Department of Toxicology and used in criminal cases?

And, by extension, how many people may have been convicted of crimes with tainted evidence?

After three months of negotiations, the state has provided The Indianapolis Star with a summary of results from the retesting of actual blood samples from 2007 to 2009. The new tests were ordered after an outside auditor raised questions about the lab's work during that period -- and, specifically, about the original results for the samples sent for retesting.

The new results are disturbing on multiple levels.

The state paid an independent lab to double-check nearly 800 test results that were reported to prosecutors as positive for marijuana or cocaine. The retesting, however, showed no trace of the drugs originally reported in 243 -- or 30 percent -- of those samples.

White Supremacist Hacks Trayvon Martin’s Email Account, Leaks Messages Online

re: #234 boxhead

So you want the Feds to pay for all Medicare costs? How does that work when any attempt to reduce costs without privatizing it are met with screams of communism?

No. The Feds are trying to cut medicare cost by pushing it onto the states. This, as far as I know, isn't legal. I'm looking at this more as a leagl thing. We can figure out healthcare without the Feds taking it over and destroying the insurance industry.

re: #236 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Question. Why is the media only showing this kid's pic from when he was 12 or 13?

I do not mean to be so strong in my words, I just feel that our Country is cutting off its nose to spite its face. And arguments against universal health care are not logical.

re: #236 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

4Chan.

re: #239 boxhead

Well, I hate you now.
////

re: #237 Cannadian Club Akbar

What value does the insurance industry provide? I am thinking nothing.

re: #238 Cannadian Club Akbar

Question. Why is the media only showing this kid's pic from when he was 12 or 13?

Charles Blow says recent pics are not different in the "baby-faced" way.

ok... the roosters are crowing and I still need to sleep a bit... until we meet again Canadian Club... heh

re: #242 boxhead

What value does the insurance industry provide? I am thinking nothing.

Can we privatize the DMV? That place runs like a oiled steel ball on a hardwood floor.
/
Sorry if I sound anti-gubment, because I am on certain things. But on the good side, my BIL in Canada only had to wait 6 months for a hip replacement.

The FB screenshot I'm looking at right now doesn't look legit at all. The fake screenshots one sees on humor sites look better. In any case, the guy can't prove they're real. He has no credibility, and screenshots aren't credible evidence, unless the person presenting them has credibility.

But I suppose the wingnuts will use them anyway.

re: #244 boxhead

ok... the roosters are crowing and I still need to sleep a bit... until we meet again Canadian Club... heh

You spelled my name wrong!! Oh, wait!!!!
/

There is a scooter online for $475 (see $400 cash). If I move onto the island, I might buy it. I only work at the land side of the bridge, but I can also walk. Decisions.

re: #247 Cannadian Club Akbar

You spelled my name wrong!! Oh, wait!!!
/

Should just make it "Cannanite Club Akbar" and throw everyone off.

re: #249 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Should just make it "Cannanite Club Akbar" and throw everyone off.

Oak pollen this winter has killed me. I don't like you anymore.
///

re: #250 Cannadian Club Akbar

Oak pollen this winter has killed me. I don't like you anymore.
///

The acorns will be around to see you about voter registration in a few months.

SANTA ANA (CBS) — Democratic campaign treasurer Kinde Durkee is expected to plead guilty to stealing millions from California political clients like U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein and Santa Ana Assemblyman Jose Solorio.
[Link: losangeles.cbslocal.com...]

HALLIBURTON!!
/

re: #251 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

The acorns will be around to see you about voter registration in a few months.

Well played, sir.

re: #227 boxhead

There's a distinction to be made between health care and health insurance. There is no reason not to have a national insurance program, especially with a population that often crosses state lines for work.

re: #254 Obdicut

There's a distinction to be made between health care and health insurance. There is no reason not to have a national insurance program, especially with a population that often crosses state lines for work.

I'll agree with this. But if the person chooses to be in it. That isn't what the White House is looking for, though.